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179.118, \"end\": 179.138, \"score\": 0.995}]}, {\"start\": 179.798, \"end\": 194.546, \"text\": \"那車手的話我們就知道他整個詐欺行為他是最底下最底層的那個行為者而且是最容易被抓到的等於是這些人他擔負的是詐欺集團裡面最危險的工作但是也是獲利最低的工作\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 179.798, \"end\": 180.178, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 180.178, \"end\": 180.318, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 180.318, \"end\": 180.418, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 180.418, \"end\": 180.699, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 180.699, \"end\": 180.839, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 180.839, \"end\": 180.919, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 180.919, \"end\": 181.099, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 181.099, \"end\": 181.259, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 181.259, \"end\": 181.519, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"詐\"}, {\"word\": \"欺\", \"start\": 181.519, 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209.775, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 209.775, \"end\": 209.935, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 209.935, \"end\": 210.195, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 210.195, \"end\": 210.395, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 210.395, \"end\": 210.595, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"走\", \"start\": 210.595, \"end\": 211.096, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 211.096, \"end\": 211.176, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 211.176, \"end\": 211.396, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 211.396, \"end\": 211.716, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 211.716, \"end\": 211.896, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"朋\", \"start\": 211.896, \"end\": 212.056, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 212.056, \"end\": 212.216, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 212.216, \"end\": 213.297, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 213.297, \"end\": 213.497, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 213.497, \"end\": 213.637, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"危\", \"start\": 213.637, \"end\": 213.937, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 213.937, \"end\": 214.058, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 214.058, \"end\": 214.258, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 214.258, \"end\": 214.658, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 214.658, \"end\": 214.858, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 214.858, \"end\": 215.058, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 215.058, \"end\": 215.078, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}]}, {\"start\": 216.599, \"end\": 243.34, \"text\": \"但是他這個犯罪的記錄啊其實雖然說他成年之後他不會顯示在前科表上但是其實大家也都知道從院檢的系統還是看得到他過往在那個青少年時候的一些資料好那現在變成少年變成免洗塊所以我最近又看到那個一篇那個桃園地檢署那個陳嘉義檢察官他有投書全國律師的一篇文章其實他就點出了我們目前\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 216.599, \"end\": 216.739, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 376.732, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 376.732, \"end\": 376.752, \"score\": 0.023}]}, {\"start\": 377.552, \"end\": 405.247, \"text\": \"那這樣變成是小朋友像免洗筷一樣這批小朋友被抓了抓進去然後去送輔導了那犯罪團體繼續去吸收新的小朋友進來那反而行政先行沒有解決掉現在犯罪新少年犯罪的問題他反而讓被害的人越來越多這是那個我看了這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章之後然後再講我自己以前處理案件的概念我覺得這會有一個小問題那我會同時給各位參考\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 377.552, \"end\": 378.072, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 378.072, \"end\": 378.232, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 378.232, \"end\": 378.453, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 378.453, \"end\": 378.633, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"朋\", \"start\": 378.633, \"end\": 378.793, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 378.793, \"end\": 379.493, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 379.493, \"end\": 379.653, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 379.653, \"end\": 379.853, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"洗\", 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\"就是希望說大家也能夠思考一下包括教育部或是衛福部這邊也能夠思考一下會有這個問題那再來還有一個問題是少府會的功能還是有限因為少府會它目前它的組織層級很低然後它可能是站在各個縣市政府或者是警察機關而且它是被動的開案還有一個很重要的點是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 407.348, \"end\": 407.488, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 407.488, \"end\": 408.869, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 408.869, \"end\": 408.969, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 408.969, \"end\": 409.309, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 409.309, \"end\": 409.429, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 409.429, \"end\": 409.509, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 409.509, \"end\": 410.13, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 410.13, \"end\": 410.43, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 410.43, \"end\": 410.59, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 410.59, \"end\": 410.73, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 410.73, \"end\": 410.79, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": 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\"已\", \"start\": 463.882, \"end\": 464.182, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 464.182, \"end\": 464.342, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 464.342, \"end\": 464.482, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 464.482, \"end\": 464.662, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 464.662, \"end\": 465.323, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 465.323, \"end\": 465.463, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 465.463, \"end\": 465.603, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 465.603, \"end\": 465.763, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 465.763, \"end\": 465.903, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 465.903, \"end\": 466.403, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 466.403, \"end\": 467.064, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 467.064, \"end\": 467.204, \"score\": 0.802}, 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{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 911.625, \"end\": 911.965, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 911.965, \"end\": 912.225, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 912.225, \"end\": 912.405, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 912.405, \"end\": 912.545, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 912.545, \"end\": 912.745, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 912.745, \"end\": 912.925, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 912.925, \"end\": 913.065, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 913.065, \"end\": 913.245, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 913.245, \"end\": 913.406, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 913.406, \"end\": 913.566, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 913.566, \"end\": 913.646, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 913.646, \"end\": 913.826, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 913.826, \"end\": 913.966, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 913.966, \"end\": 914.486, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 914.486, \"end\": 914.606, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 914.606, \"end\": 914.726, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 914.726, \"end\": 915.327, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 915.327, \"end\": 915.567, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 915.567, \"end\": 915.727, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 915.727, \"end\": 915.747, \"score\": 0.951}]}, {\"start\": 918.093, \"end\": 942.808, \"text\": \"因為你寫一載耶 你那個新聞稿寫一載部長有看過新聞稿嗎你說什麼時候的話我會去再做因為一道中文的理解就是反覆的要求嘛而且因為這也列入那個年度的一個業務檢查的一個項目嘛那我想這個我們都是評論所以到底有還是沒有這個我們會把相關的資料再提供給委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 918.093, \"end\": 918.213, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 918.213, \"end\": 918.513, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 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924.737, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 924.737, \"end\": 924.957, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 924.957, \"end\": 925.297, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 925.297, \"end\": 925.397, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 925.397, \"end\": 925.658, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 925.658, \"end\": 925.838, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 925.838, \"end\": 926.018, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 926.018, \"end\": 926.698, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 926.698, \"end\": 927.118, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 927.118, \"end\": 928.359, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 928.359, \"end\": 928.459, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 928.459, \"end\": 928.639, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 928.639, \"end\": 928.819, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 928.819, \"end\": 928.94, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 928.94, \"end\": 929.06, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 929.06, \"end\": 929.22, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 929.22, \"end\": 929.38, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 929.38, \"end\": 929.48, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 929.48, \"end\": 929.64, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 929.64, \"end\": 929.84, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"覆\", \"start\": 929.84, \"end\": 929.98, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 929.98, \"end\": 930.08, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 930.08, \"end\": 930.32, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 930.32, \"end\": 930.601, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 930.601, \"end\": 931.121, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 931.121, \"end\": 931.241, 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00:00:22,546\n那個資訊開始前我先簡單的說明一下那個今天的題目啦因為剛剛有委員說是委員聳聽我跳一下那個警政署的數據齁那個2024年這個為什麼是4.7我想說這個不是委員聳聽啦因為這是數據上面他就是青少年把它加在一起齁就是那個成色的部分是少年\n\n2\n00:00:23,186 --> 00:00:32,256\n那兩個加起來右邊合計是4.7那當然我們謝謝吳委員的指教那我想說我們這個題目沒有委員聳聽啦因為這個數據是警政署他有一個合計所以我們今天的題目是\n\n3\n00:00:44,029 --> 00:01:10,939\n親少年不是說少年是4.7萬我這邊就那個會議議程因為剛剛吳委員有問到那我就在這邊簡單說明一下好謝謝那我們請那個法務部長還有警政署署長還有副秘來麻煩有請司法院副秘書長法務部部長以及警政署的署長委員好\n\n4\n00:01:13,581 --> 00:01:41,880\n好謝謝我想說今天這個少年輔導矯正這個為什麼今天有這麼多部長級的人都來我想是大家都很重視這個議題啦那這個議題其實我覺得已經是少子化高齡化再來青少年犯罪這個都是國安的問題因為青少年他們將來進入社會之後那他們會不會在少年時期他對於這個社會的一些對他的影響然後造成他們對於價值觀等等的這個\n\n5\n00:01:43,322 --> 00:01:56,982\n那個錯誤會不會導致將來他成年之後對社會會有重大影響所以我一直所以今天我想說這麼多部長都有過來也是很感謝各位部長我想我們這幾年我們看到的一個狀況就是\n\n6\n00:01:58,965 --> 00:02:19,545\n青少年他的犯罪的比例其實一直在增加所以我們看到一個數字來看其實12到17歲的少年在這五年其實他是一直往上衝的他的成長率是增加然後我們今天又看到警政署的報告再加上我們其實少子化的問題\n\n7\n00:02:21,668 --> 00:02:35,159\n發生的件數跟我們的分母整個比起來的話其實數字是很驚人的增加我這樣子來算了一下大概犯罪其實是高達增加率是高達兩成所以我剛剛是說\n\n8\n00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:59,138\n除了案件數之外我們還有一個少子化所導致的分母其實是減少所以這樣比較起來其實他的犯罪率他是在往上升的而且青少年他們最常涉犯的案件大概就是兩個一個是詐欺然後另外一個是妨害秩序那我們看到這幾年的報告看起來其實很多青少年他會被利用去當作車手\n\n9\n00:02:59,798 --> 00:03:14,546\n那車手的話我們就知道他整個詐欺行為他是最底下最底層的那個行為者而且是最容易被抓到的等於是這些人他擔負的是詐欺集團裡面最危險的工作但是也是獲利最低的工作\n\n10\n00:03:15,086 --> 00:03:35,078\n那我記得我以前在處理案件的時候這些人他們有時候分到的大概只有他們詐騙到金額的可能是1%或2%這麼低那也是九成以上的錢其實是擔任風險不高的人他們都分走所以這些小朋友他們做最危險的工作領最少的錢\n\n11\n00:03:36,599 --> 00:04:03,340\n但是他這個犯罪的記錄啊其實雖然說他成年之後他不會顯示在前科表上但是其實大家也都知道從院檢的系統還是看得到他過往在那個青少年時候的一些資料好那現在變成少年變成免洗塊所以我最近又看到那個一篇那個桃園地檢署那個陳嘉義檢察官他有投書全國律師的一篇文章其實他就點出了我們目前\n\n12\n00:04:04,361 --> 00:04:26,651\n我們目前我們想要走向這個行政先行的概念之下他可能會產生的一些狀況我想行政輔導先行在現行的偵查上面會有幾個問題我就引用這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章的內容他第一個他會造成偵查主體的割裂所以偵查一個現在的犯罪他不會就是說\n\n13\n00:04:27,611 --> 00:04:56,284\n成年人跟未成年人他們壁壘分明他不會這樣他通常是混成一團所以到最後變成成年人的犯罪偵查是由檢察官由司法偵查有檢察官去處理但是呢少年犯如果以行政先行的概念變成是由少年法庭所以將變成一個犯罪是有兩個不同的指揮系統在指揮更何況法官因為他的那個職業訓練他對於偵查的理解性可能沒那麼高那\n\n14\n00:04:58,585 --> 00:05:20,836\n兩雙頭馬車之後他可能造成偵查秘密的外洩還有偵查不同調甚至就是說他沒有一概的去判斷案子的全貌的話他可能造成要羈押等等的狀況也比較不容易但是呢如果只要有一個人沒有押那可能就會把整個犯罪偵查的東西都流出去我想這個各位\n\n15\n00:05:21,576 --> 00:05:39,088\n都是第一線司法實務的在座都是檢察官法官跟警察所以都很了解我剛剛提到的這個問題所以我們現在要去思考就是說這幾年運作下來這個行政先行的這個東西到底在實務上面運作有沒有發生很大的問題會不會反而對於\n\n16\n00:05:40,109 --> 00:05:54,138\n犯罪的偵查我們要去把它一鍋把它端掉把它處理掉不要讓這個犯罪集團繼續存在變成是我們為了保護小朋友就讓這個犯罪集團完全無法再追查下去繼續壯大繼續收新的\n\n17\n00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:16,752\n小朋友進來我的意思就是說我們以前的偵查模式是會溯源把整個集團瓦解掉但是現在的狀況要行政先行的話變成未成年人交給法院然後成年人有檢察官那這樣子的狀況會變成是查緝偵查犯罪團體的時候你很難向上去溯源\n\n18\n00:06:17,552 --> 00:06:45,247\n那這樣變成是小朋友像免洗筷一樣這批小朋友被抓了抓進去然後去送輔導了那犯罪團體繼續去吸收新的小朋友進來那反而行政先行沒有解決掉現在犯罪新少年犯罪的問題他反而讓被害的人越來越多這是那個我看了這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章之後然後再講我自己以前處理案件的概念我覺得這會有一個小問題那我會同時給各位參考\n\n19\n00:06:47,348 --> 00:07:12,083\n就是希望說大家也能夠思考一下包括教育部或是衛福部這邊也能夠思考一下會有這個問題那再來還有一個問題是少府會的功能還是有限因為少府會它目前它的組織層級很低然後它可能是站在各個縣市政府或者是警察機關而且它是被動的開案還有一個很重要的點是\n\n20\n00:07:13,761 --> 00:07:33,897\n這次警政署報告有提到它是缺乏約束力我是特別要感謝警政署署長因為我覺得這次的報告是我看過非常棒的一份報告那我也很希望說其他部會也能參考一下那個警政署這次提出來的報告因為看過以後我真的覺得警政署這報告非常非常的完整\n\n21\n00:07:34,657 --> 00:07:48,224\n那我今天會提這個專報呢其實我一個很重要的點是我剛提到我個人覺得青少年犯罪還是已經到我覺得這是國家安全的問題了啦因為他是未來整個社會\n\n22\n00:07:51,377 --> 00:08:07,222\n問題就會從他年輕的時候他的態度的偏差之後然後長大之後會影響到這個社會尤其是我剛剛有提到的詐欺是現在青少年犯罪的很嚴重的一環所以這個都會影響到社會那另外我自己念書的時候我念那個\n\n23\n00:08:08,717 --> 00:08:32,371\n那公共衛生的領域嘛那我們那時候有念到社會流行病學裡面有一個致病社會的致病因子那社會的致病因子其實它來源是非常多包括這個社會給小朋友啊家庭給小朋友或教育給小朋友把累積到最後就是讓這個人偏差了所以我想到各位為什麼今天來那麼多部會也是要跟各位報告從社會流行\n\n24\n00:08:33,359 --> 00:08:56,771\n並學的角度去看其實各個部會所管轄的東西對於小朋友的發展我覺得那個都有很重要的關聯性雖然說我覺得行政院有提一個在今年2月的時候他有一個就是找史哲政委還有陳時中政委有用一個跨部會的那個\n\n25\n00:08:57,796 --> 00:09:26,768\n那個會議喔希望說就這個改善兒少的這個環境但是喔也是蠻特別的啦就是說啊不是知道使得要去當高鐵的董事長為什麼又突然還叫他去領導這個齁那這個是我覺得行政院這個用人應該是很早就布局好怎麼還會讓他來負責一個這麼重大的一件事情喔這個我現在還是想不通啦所以我在前面提那麼多我主要就是說第一個我想點告訴各位\n\n26\n00:09:27,648 --> 00:09:56,071\n這青少年的問題這是跨好幾個部會的問題不是單一個部會而且從社會流行病學的角度去看它的影響本來就是跟現在目前在座各個部長有關那第二個就是我是希望說在一個月一個月內能夠請司法院法務部教育部衛福部還有警政署能夠再送一份報告給我但是這份報告我是希望說大家能夠參考彼此今天提出來的資料\n\n27\n00:09:56,772 --> 00:10:18,461\n好不好因為我今天看完各位的資料之後我發現各個部會所講出來的東西彼此之間有道理但是沒有橫向的聯繫所以我剛才提到說因為我看完警政我覺得警政組的資料最完整那麻煩其他的部會能夠參考一下然後給我一份資料因為我接下來我也是想要就這個青少年犯罪的部分行政先行到底\n\n28\n00:10:19,281 --> 00:10:34,067\n是不是一個解決問題的方式還是反而製造更多問題我想要去從修法的角度去解決這個問題或是政策上面我能夠提供一些建議我想解決這個才能夠紓解末端\n\n29\n00:10:34,887 --> 00:10:59,405\n末端成年犯的問題啦所以我想說這個在我個人覺得是很重要那而且我之前在蔡新祥部長的時代我也都有跟他就這個部分有一直跟他去提要怎麼樣去做犯罪的少年犯的源頭打擊讓這些人犯罪者黑幫不要進到校園這也是我目前我一直很重視希望處理的一個面向我一直\n\n30\n00:11:01,747 --> 00:11:24,321\n上禮拜立法院有去城鎮中學有去參訪有去考察我們發現其實私生筆和借戶筆其實是有很嚴重的失衡這部分麻煩法務部長也能夠注意一下城鎮中學的那個部分最後我想請教法務部\n\n31\n00:11:25,322 --> 00:11:40,576\n因為跨部會我們剛剛提到的就是鄭麗君副院長跟石澤政委陳時中政委他們在二月的時候開的那個跨部會的會議到現在我想請問一下過了四個月了法務部有沒有什麼具體的作為\n\n32\n00:11:42,096 --> 00:11:54,868\n這部分這個跨部會的這一次的一個會議我是不是請我們那個我們那個等一下就說明一下就是這個會議跨部會議之後你們的作為是什麼\n\n33\n00:11:57,931 --> 00:12:17,030\n這個跨部會這部分最主要是一個成少共犯的一個分工那我們法務部因為不是少年的一個在一個查緝方就我們法務部沒有角色而且少年事件處長是不准我們檢察官去介入的所以我們現在很努力的就是少角學校那部分以及就是那個\n\n34\n00:12:18,751 --> 00:12:44,000\n那個宣導的那一部分嘛那這部分我們也會跟各部會就那個預防的這個一個少年方案這我們會跟內政部跟其他部會來做一個合作欸不是啦這個但我就沒有聽到那個答案啦因為因為不是啦法務部是處理成年犯沒有錯啊但是我剛剛一直講到現在是成年犯跟未成年犯他們沒辦法割裂嘛他們現在都是一個包裹在一起犯罪團體都是這樣啊\n\n35\n00:12:44,540 --> 00:13:05,108\n所以保護部不能說各位才能跟我們有關當然這邊因為那個成年部分當然滿18歲這邊的成年的這部分那我們這個因為他所以在涉及詐欺等這些的話最主要是詐欺啦那這邊我們會做一個重點的一個查緝的一個項目那會依據而權法裡面的來做一個加重的一個求刑不能這樣啦保護部這樣我想要時間的關係我也\n\n36\n00:13:07,029 --> 00:13:25,776\n不期待說在現在問出東西但至少可以在一個月內回給我的資料裡面能夠包含到就是二月開完這個會到現在這四個月那請問具體的方案是什麼那至少你要告訴我將來是跨部會是誰領軍哪一個單位執行那執行的期程是什麼怎麼執行\n\n37\n00:13:27,857 --> 00:13:41,985\n這些東西你至少內容要給我那這部分我就跟委員報告事實上在三月因為二月之後三月十四號我們有檢察長會有請各地邀請少年法庭剛才我有報告的延長那另外三月二十一號抬高檢也拜會\n\n38\n00:13:42,845 --> 00:14:08,244\n市法院少家庭來延伤相關的議題4月7號也還請各地檢署邀請少年法庭法院司法警察機關來做一個延伤嘛那5月15號韓府行政院就有關少年檢驗資料的需求項目我們做一個延伤來一個解決那這個詳細的事項我就書面報告來給我跟您講就是說不要用言議中來回答我因為像上次那個黃國昌委員說的\n\n39\n00:14:10,746 --> 00:14:19,531\n他說他最怕的就是聽到演繹因為演繹等於不做但我自己在呃擔任局長的時候我自己底下的那個同仁我對\n\n40\n00:14:20,933 --> 00:14:49,812\n我對長官說的演繹兩個字就是我們已經積極在做我的演繹永遠不是說不做的意思到這邊常常演繹就是不做的最後我想說也是要請那個部長請教部長一個就是說我還是因為部長昨天有發一個新聞稿嘛就新聞稿說因為我跟你講這兩天昨天我們辦公室就接到很多那個民眾打來電話來說蔣陽關開零態度不佳這件事情\n\n41\n00:14:52,314 --> 00:15:15,747\n因為我有看到那個新聞稿有說部長說有一再的要求是不是我們這個本來就是有要求而且這個開庭態度的問題是列入年度的檢查的一個事項那上一次發文要求大家要依據刑事訴訟法98條出於懇切態度上一次發文請全國檢察官注意這件事是多久以前的事這回去我再提供\n\n42\n00:15:18,093 --> 00:15:42,808\n因為你寫一載耶你那個新聞稿寫一載部長有看過新聞稿嗎你說什麼時候的話我會去再做因為一道中文的理解就是反覆的要求嘛而且因為這也列入那個年度的一個業務檢查的一個項目嘛那我想這個我們都是評論所以到底有還是沒有這個我們會把相關的資料再提供給委員\n\n43\n00:15:43,809 --> 00:15:57,475\n另外我要講一個就是說因為剛剛有很多委員有提出這個質疑啦還有我自己也一直質疑就是剛剛部長有跟其他委員有一來一往在那邊講甚至還講到違照文書啦違照電池紀錄啦侵害個資啦那當然\n\n44\n00:15:59,540 --> 00:16:22,550\n我到現在我還是沒有辦法理解因為禮拜一是我當主席啦那我說真的現場我本來也是覺得奇怪這個東西能夠播放嘛但是後來黃委員當場有說這個不是啊那如果播放一個不是的他已經在現場說他不是回家才偷偷說他現場說這個不是開庭的錄音了那為什麼\n\n45\n00:16:23,810 --> 00:16:38,538\n為什麼部長剛剛的回覆還一直可以講到偽造文書然後還有人講偽造電子紀錄所以我想這樣啦我非常的期待法務部能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員跟委員報告要不要給我這個所謂那個本來這個我們黃委員的他那時候這個我有整理出來喔\n\n46\n00:16:47,082 --> 00:17:12,702\n這個意思是要播放這個要播放給我聽喔什麼叫入貿什麼叫恐嚇喔他是用個案的這部分來講我一直很反對我說不要千萬不要我忘記了最後播完後播完之後才跟我講這是示範帶他有說是針對哪一個案子嗎因為我現在一下忘了我記憶力不太好這個已經就講了朱將軍等等這個我一聽就知道是哪個個案了嘛為什麼\n\n47\n00:17:14,043 --> 00:17:27,527\n這個聽起來就是個案了這個是個案了所以委員你在質詢我你也說這個不適合在播放嘛部長我有講一件事情喔部長你不要亂帶風向喔我沒有帶風向喔部長等一下如果今天黃國昌委員當場是播放證訊的內容的話我一定會制止啊\n\n48\n00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:51,839\n但是他那時候已經說不能這樣好了啦部長我覺得啦部長我跟你說齁這個是這個錄音的錄音檔這個來源不明真為莫辯嘛這個真的有嚴重誤導這個視聽那黃委員到後來才講說這是屬於那個那個那個什麼\n\n49\n00:17:55,402 --> 00:18:23,655\n市判代市判代是不是真的再來造假再來檢驗因為剛剛王逸川委員有告發我們可以再去調查起來做一個鑑定嘛我跟你講部長我問東你答西我問東你回答西喔部長這樣好不好因為王逸川委員剛剛有告發我們的黃委員嘛那我就希望趕快拜讀到起訴書到底是涉犯哪一個條文因為我說真的這兩天我想破頭我實在是不知道是涉犯什麼條文啊\n\n50\n00:18:24,375 --> 00:18:29,640\n我真的想不出來然後我剛剛也仔細看了一下立法院的執行法24等一下部長部長我剛剛看了一下立法院執行法24條執行法24條它有關質詢的提出啊它也沒有說不行這樣啊那所以我一直搞不懂所以我很希望嚴辦黃國昌委員那我很希望拜讀起訴書的內容\n\n51\n00:18:45,273 --> 00:19:11,048\n到底涉犯什麼條文我不要涉犯好不好因為黃委員怎麼會有這個袋子如果說是這種這個袋子只有檢察官法官才能聽得到另外就是一個被捕律師才有去按照刑事法第33條他可以提出來去做一個Copy這也是刑事刑事防禦權你剛剛講那30秒的前提是如果他當天放的是開庭的東西的話才會有你說的這些後面的法律效果\n\n52\n00:19:11,488 --> 00:19:21,217\n那我想說所以我們新聞稿有發表這個是來源不明真偽真偽莫辯沒關係啦部長你這些論述絕對可以剪短影音出去講但是喔我跟你說啦部長我永遠在這裡講的一句話就是說話沒關係你要做聲光效果那給全國人民看我沒意見\n\n53\n00:19:32,267 --> 00:19:55,023\n但是不要忘了我們國家有非常多法律專業的人他們懂我們在講什麼部長你要玩聲光效果那是你的事情你可以接受幾個小時的證訊可以做一個惡意的剪接嗎我想這個檢察官不能夠這樣做我跟你講你在講的東西我還是聽不懂你在講什麼本案跟剪接什麼關係本案跟剪接什麼關係剛剛還有人講是變造\n\n54\n00:20:00,507 --> 00:20:15,637\n變照開庭的那個哪裡有變照我搞不清楚當事人已經講了說這個東西不是開庭的嘛那你一定要對號入座說他是哪一個案子然後又要對號入座說這個是開庭錄音的剪接\n\n55\n00:20:16,357 --> 00:20:25,063\n然後我就跟你說啦我現在沒有意見了啦部長部長好啦部長我跟你講我問東尼達西正你在做什麼我不是看不懂啦我腦子不是那麼不清楚部長這樣好不好我就說了我們就按照剛剛王一川委員的告發那就請貴部能夠督導檢察官能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員因為我很想看看這個起訴書到底是涉犯哪個條因為我的腦子一直想不出來\n\n56\n00:20:46,738 --> 00:20:50,364\n聽不懂到底這個有哪裡構成犯罪好不好那謝謝部長再請部長嚴辦好謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n169\t22546\t那個資訊開始前我先簡單的說明一下那個今天的題目啦因為剛剛有委員說是委員聳聽我跳一下那個警政署的數據齁那個2024年這個為什麼是4.7我想說這個不是委員聳聽啦因為這是數據上面他就是青少年把它加在一起齁就是那個成色的部分是少年\n23186\t32256\t那兩個加起來右邊合計是4.7那當然我們謝謝吳委員的指教那我想說我們這個題目沒有委員聳聽啦因為這個數據是警政署他有一個合計所以我們今天的題目是\n44029\t70939\t親少年不是說少年是4.7萬我這邊就那個會議議程因為剛剛吳委員有問到那我就在這邊簡單說明一下好謝謝那我們請那個法務部長還有警政署署長還有副秘來麻煩有請司法院副秘書長法務部部長以及警政署的署長委員好\n73581\t101880\t好 謝謝我想說今天這個少年輔導矯正這個為什麼今天有這麼多部長級的人都來我想是大家都很重視這個議題啦那這個議題其實我覺得已經是少子化高齡化再來青少年犯罪這個都是國安的問題因為青少年他們將來進入社會之後那他們會不會在少年時期他對於這個社會的一些對他的影響然後造成他們對於價值觀等等的這個\n103322\t116982\t那個錯誤會不會導致將來他成年之後對社會會有重大影響所以我一直所以今天我想說這麼多部長都有過來也是很感謝各位部長我想我們這幾年我們看到的一個狀況就是\n118965\t139545\t青少年他的犯罪的比例其實一直在增加所以我們看到一個數字來看其實12到17歲的少年在這五年其實他是一直往上衝的他的成長率是增加然後我們今天又看到警政署的報告再加上我們其實少子化的問題\n141668\t155159\t發生的件數跟我們的分母整個比起來的話其實數字是很驚人的增加我這樣子來算了一下大概犯罪其實是高達增加率是高達兩成所以我剛剛是說\n156560\t179138\t除了案件數之外我們還有一個少子化所導致的分母其實是減少所以這樣比較起來其實他的犯罪率他是在往上升的而且青少年他們最常涉犯的案件大概就是兩個一個是詐欺然後另外一個是妨害秩序那我們看到這幾年的報告看起來其實很多青少年他會被利用去當作車手\n179798\t194546\t那車手的話我們就知道他整個詐欺行為他是最底下最底層的那個行為者而且是最容易被抓到的等於是這些人他擔負的是詐欺集團裡面最危險的工作但是也是獲利最低的工作\n195086\t215078\t那我記得我以前在處理案件的時候這些人他們有時候分到的大概只有他們詐騙到金額的可能是1%或2%這麼低那也是九成以上的錢其實是擔任風險不高的人他們都分走所以這些小朋友他們做最危險的工作領最少的錢\n216599\t243340\t但是他這個犯罪的記錄啊其實雖然說他成年之後他不會顯示在前科表上但是其實大家也都知道從院檢的系統還是看得到他過往在那個青少年時候的一些資料好那現在變成少年變成免洗塊所以我最近又看到那個一篇那個桃園地檢署那個陳嘉義檢察官他有投書全國律師的一篇文章其實他就點出了我們目前\n244361\t266651\t我們目前我們想要走向這個行政先行的概念之下他可能會產生的一些狀況我想行政輔導先行在現行的偵查上面會有幾個問題我就引用這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章的內容他第一個他會造成偵查主體的割裂所以偵查一個現在的犯罪他不會就是說\n267611\t296284\t成年人跟未成年人他們壁壘分明他不會這樣他通常是混成一團所以到最後變成成年人的犯罪偵查是由檢察官由司法偵查有檢察官去處理但是呢少年犯如果以行政先行的概念變成是由少年法庭所以將變成一個犯罪是有兩個不同的指揮系統在指揮更何況法官因為他的那個職業訓練他對於偵查的理解性可能沒那麼高那\n298585\t320836\t兩雙頭馬車之後他可能造成偵查秘密的外洩還有偵查不同調甚至就是說他沒有一概的去判斷案子的全貌的話他可能造成要羈押等等的狀況也比較不容易但是呢如果只要有一個人沒有押那可能就會把整個犯罪偵查的東西都流出去我想這個各位\n321576\t339088\t都是第一線司法實務的在座都是檢察官法官跟警察所以都很了解我剛剛提到的這個問題所以我們現在要去思考就是說這幾年運作下來這個行政先行的這個東西到底在實務上面運作有沒有發生很大的問題會不會反而對於\n340109\t354138\t犯罪的偵查我們要去把它一鍋把它端掉把它處理掉不要讓這個犯罪集團繼續存在變成是我們為了保護小朋友就讓這個犯罪集團完全無法再追查下去繼續壯大繼續收新的\n357000\t376752\t小朋友進來我的意思就是說我們以前的偵查模式是會溯源把整個集團瓦解掉但是現在的狀況要行政先行的話變成未成年人交給法院然後成年人有檢察官那這樣子的狀況會變成是查緝偵查犯罪團體的時候你很難向上去溯源\n377552\t405247\t那這樣變成是小朋友像免洗筷一樣這批小朋友被抓了抓進去然後去送輔導了那犯罪團體繼續去吸收新的小朋友進來那反而行政先行沒有解決掉現在犯罪新少年犯罪的問題他反而讓被害的人越來越多這是那個我看了這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章之後然後再講我自己以前處理案件的概念我覺得這會有一個小問題那我會同時給各位參考\n407348\t432083\t就是希望說大家也能夠思考一下包括教育部或是衛福部這邊也能夠思考一下會有這個問題那再來還有一個問題是少府會的功能還是有限因為少府會它目前它的組織層級很低然後它可能是站在各個縣市政府或者是警察機關而且它是被動的開案還有一個很重要的點是\n433761\t453897\t這次警政署報告有提到它是缺乏約束力我是特別要感謝警政署署長因為我覺得這次的報告是我看過非常棒的一份報告那我也很希望說其他部會也能參考一下那個警政署這次提出來的報告因為看過以後我真的覺得警政署這報告非常非常的完整\n454657\t468224\t那我今天會提這個專報呢其實我一個很重要的點是我剛提到我個人覺得青少年犯罪還是已經到我覺得這是國家安全的問題了啦因為他是未來整個社會\n471377\t487222\t問題就會從他年輕的時候他的態度的偏差之後然後長大之後會影響到這個社會尤其是我剛剛有提到的詐欺是現在青少年犯罪的很嚴重的一環所以這個都會影響到社會那另外我自己念書的時候我念那個\n488717\t512371\t那公共衛生的領域嘛那我們那時候有念到社會流行病學裡面有一個致病社會的致病因子那社會的致病因子其實它來源是非常多包括這個社會給小朋友啊家庭給小朋友或教育給小朋友把累積到最後就是讓這個人偏差了所以我想到各位為什麼今天來那麼多部會也是要跟各位報告從社會流行\n513359\t536771\t並學的角度去看其實各個部會所管轄的東西對於小朋友的發展我覺得那個都有很重要的關聯性雖然說我覺得行政院有提一個在今年2月的時候他有一個就是找史哲政委還有陳時中政委有用一個跨部會的那個\n537796\t566768\t那個會議喔 希望說就這個改善兒少的這個環境但是喔 也是蠻特別的啦 就是說啊不是知道使得要去當高鐵的董事長 為什麼又突然還叫他去領導這個齁那這個是我覺得行政院這個用人應該是很早就布局好 怎麼還會讓他來負責一個這麼重大的一件事情喔 這個我現在還是想不通啦 所以我在前面提那麼多 我主要就是說 第一個我想點 告訴各位\n567648\t596071\t這青少年的問題這是跨好幾個部會的問題不是單一個部會而且從社會流行病學的角度去看它的影響本來就是跟現在目前在座各個部長有關那第二個就是我是希望說在一個月一個月內能夠請司法院法務部教育部衛福部還有警政署能夠再送一份報告給我但是這份報告我是希望說大家能夠參考彼此今天提出來的資料\n596772\t618461\t好不好因為我今天看完各位的資料之後我發現各個部會所講出來的東西彼此之間有道理但是沒有橫向的聯繫所以我剛才提到說因為我看完警政我覺得警政組的資料最完整那麻煩其他的部會能夠參考一下然後給我一份資料因為我接下來我也是想要就這個青少年犯罪的部分行政先行到底\n619281\t634067\t是不是一個解決問題的方式還是反而製造更多問題我想要去從修法的角度去解決這個問題或是政策上面我能夠提供一些建議我想解決這個才能夠紓解末端\n634887\t659405\t末端成年犯的問題啦所以我想說這個在我個人覺得是很重要那而且我之前在蔡新祥部長的時代我也都有跟他就這個部分有一直跟他去提要怎麼樣去做犯罪的少年犯的源頭打擊讓這些人犯罪者黑幫不要進到校園這也是我目前我一直很重視希望處理的一個面向我一直\n661747\t684321\t上禮拜立法院有去 城鎮中學有去參訪有去考察 我們發現其實私生筆和借戶筆其實是有很嚴重的失衡這部分麻煩法務部長也能夠注意一下城鎮中學的那個部分最後我想請教法務部\n685322\t700576\t因為跨部會我們剛剛提到的就是鄭麗君副院長跟石澤政委陳時中政委他們在二月的時候開的那個跨部會的會議到現在我想請問一下過了四個月了法務部有沒有什麼具體的作為\n702096\t714868\t這部分這個跨部會的這一次的一個會議我是不是請我們那個我們那個等一下就說明一下就是這個會議跨部會議之後你們的作為是什麼\n717931\t737030\t這個跨部會這部分最主要是一個成少共犯的一個分工那我們法務部因為不是少年的一個在一個查緝方就我們法務部沒有角色而且少年事件處長是不准我們檢察官去介入的所以我們現在很努力的就是少角學校那部分以及就是那個\n738751\t764000\t那個宣導的那一部分嘛那這部分我們也會跟各部會就那個預防的這個一個少年方案這我們會跟內政部跟其他部會來做一個合作欸不是啦 這個但我就沒有聽到那個答案啦因為因為不是啦 法務部是處理成年犯沒有錯啊但是我剛剛一直講到現在是成年犯跟未成年犯他們沒辦法割裂嘛他們現在都是一個包裹在一起犯罪團體都是這樣啊\n764540\t785108\t所以保護部不能說 各位才能跟我們有關當然這邊因為那個成年部分 當然滿18歲這邊的成年的這部分那我們這個 因為他所以在涉及詐欺等這些的話 最主要是詐欺啦那這邊我們會做一個重點的一個查緝的一個項目 那會依據而權法裡面的來做一個加重的一個求刑不能這樣啦 保護部這樣 我想要時間的關係我也\n787029\t805776\t不期待說在現在問出東西但至少可以在一個月內回給我的資料裡面能夠包含到就是二月開完這個會到現在這四個月那請問具體的方案是什麼那至少你要告訴我將來是跨部會是誰領軍哪一個單位執行那執行的期程是什麼怎麼執行\n807857\t821985\t這些東西你至少內容要給我那這部分我就跟委員報告事實上在三月因為二月之後三月十四號我們有檢察長會有請各地邀請少年法庭剛才我有報告的延長那另外三月二十一號抬高檢也拜會\n822845\t848244\t市法院少家庭來延伤相關的議題4月7號也還請各地檢署邀請少年法庭法院司法警察機關來做一個延伤嘛那5月15號韓府行政院就有關少年檢驗資料的需求項目我們做一個延伤來一個解決那這個詳細的事項我就書面報告來給我跟您講就是說不要用言議中來回答我因為像上次那個黃國昌委員說的\n850746\t859531\t他說他最怕的就是聽到演繹 因為演繹等於不做 但我自己在呃 擔任局長的時候 我自己底下的那個同仁 我對\n860933\t889812\t我對長官說的演繹兩個字就是我們已經積極在做我的演繹永遠不是說不做的意思到這邊常常演繹就是不做的最後我想說也是要請那個部長請教部長一個就是說我還是因為部長昨天有發一個新聞稿嘛就新聞稿說因為我跟你講這兩天昨天我們辦公室就接到很多那個民眾打來電話來說蔣陽關開零態度不佳這件事情\n892314\t915747\t因為我有看到那個新聞稿有說部長說有一再的要求是不是我們這個本來就是有要求而且這個開庭態度的問題是列入年度的檢查的一個事項那上一次發文要求大家要依據刑事訴訟法98條出於懇切態度上一次發文請全國檢察官注意這件事是多久以前的事這回去我再提供\n918093\t942808\t因為你寫一載耶 你那個新聞稿寫一載部長有看過新聞稿嗎你說什麼時候的話我會去再做因為一道中文的理解就是反覆的要求嘛而且因為這也列入那個年度的一個業務檢查的一個項目嘛那我想這個我們都是評論所以到底有還是沒有這個我們會把相關的資料再提供給委員\n943809\t957475\t另外我要講一個就是說因為剛剛有很多委員有提出這個質疑啦還有我自己也一直質疑就是剛剛部長有跟其他委員有一來一往在那邊講甚至還講到違照文書啦違照電池紀錄啦侵害個資啦那當然\n959540\t982550\t我到現在我還是沒有辦法理解因為禮拜一是我當主席啦那我說真的現場我本來也是覺得奇怪這個東西能夠播放嘛但是後來黃委員當場有說這個不是啊那如果播放一個不是的他已經在現場說他不是回家才偷偷說他現場說這個不是開庭的錄音了那為什麼\n983810\t998538\t為什麼部長剛剛的回覆還一直可以講到偽造文書然後還有人講偽造電子紀錄所以我想這樣啦我非常的期待法務部能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員跟委員報告要不要給我這個所謂那個本來這個我們黃委員的他那時候這個我有整理出來喔\n1007082\t1032702\t這個意思是要播放這個要播放給我聽喔什麼叫入貿什麼叫恐嚇喔他是用個案的這部分來講我一直很反對我說不要千萬不要我忘記了最後播完後播完之後才跟我講這是示範帶他有說是針對哪一個案子嗎因為我現在一下忘了我記憶力不太好這個已經就講了朱將軍等等這個我一聽就知道是哪個個案了嘛為什麼\n1034043\t1047527\t這個聽起來就是個案了 這個是個案了所以委員你在質詢我 你也說這個不適合在播放嘛部長我有講一件事情喔 部長你不要亂帶風向喔我沒有帶風向喔部長等一下 如果今天黃國昌委員當場是播放證訊的內容的話我一定會制止啊\n1060310\t1071839\t但是他那時候已經說 不能這樣好了啦部長我覺得啦 部長我跟你說齁這個是這個錄音的 錄音檔這個來源不明真為莫辯嘛這個真的有嚴重誤導這個視聽那黃委員到後來才講說這是屬於那個那個那個什麼\n1075402\t1103655\t市判代 市判代是不是真的再來造假 再來檢驗因為剛剛王逸川委員有告發我們可以再去調查起來做一個鑑定嘛我跟你講 部長我問東你答西我問東你回答西喔部長 這樣好不好因為王逸川委員剛剛有告發我們的黃委員嘛那我就希望趕快拜讀到起訴書到底是涉犯哪一個條文因為我說真的這兩天我想破頭我實在是不知道是涉犯什麼條文啊\n1104375\t1109640\t我真的想不出來 然後我剛剛也仔細看了一下立法院的執行法24 等一下 部長 部長我剛剛看了一下立法院執行法24條執行法24條 它有關質詢的提出啊它也沒有說不行這樣啊那所以我一直搞不懂 所以我很希望嚴辦黃國昌委員那我很希望拜讀起訴書的內容\n1125273\t1151048\t到底涉犯什麼條文我不要涉犯好不好因為黃委員怎麼會有這個袋子如果說是這種這個袋子只有檢察官法官才能聽得到另外就是一個被捕律師才有去按照刑事法第33條他可以提出來去做一個Copy這也是刑事刑事防禦權你剛剛講那30秒的前提是如果他當天放的是開庭的東西的話才會有你說的這些後面的法律效果\n1151488\t1161217\t那我想說 所以我們新聞稿有發表這個是來源不明 真偽 真偽莫辯沒關係啦 部長你這些論述絕對可以剪短影音出去講但是喔 我跟你說啦 部長我永遠在這裡講的一句話就是說話沒關係 你要做聲光效果 那給全國人民看我沒意見\n1172267\t1195023\t但是不要忘了我們國家有非常多法律專業的人他們懂我們在講什麼部長你要玩聲光效果那是你的事情你可以接受幾個小時的證訊可以做一個惡意的剪接嗎我想這個檢察官不能夠這樣做我跟你講你在講的東西我還是聽不懂你在講什麼本案跟剪接什麼關係本案跟剪接什麼關係剛剛還有人講是變造\n1200507\t1215637\t變照開庭的那個哪裡有變照我搞不清楚當事人已經講了說這個東西不是開庭的嘛那你一定要對號入座說他是哪一個案子然後又要對號入座說這個是開庭錄音的剪接\n1216357\t1225063\t然後我就跟你說啦 我現在沒有意見了啦部長 部長好啦 部長我跟你講 我問東尼達西正你在做什麼 我不是看不懂啦我腦子不是那麼不清楚 部長這樣好不好我就說了 我們就按照剛剛王一川委員的告發那就請貴部能夠督導檢察官能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員因為我很想看看這個起訴書到底是涉犯哪個條因為我的腦子一直想不出來\n1246738\t1250364\t聽不懂到底這個有哪裡構成犯罪 好不好那謝謝部長 再請部長嚴辦好 謝謝部長\n","txt":"那個資訊開始前我先簡單的說明一下那個今天的題目啦因為剛剛有委員說是委員聳聽我跳一下那個警政署的數據齁那個2024年這個為什麼是4.7我想說這個不是委員聳聽啦因為這是數據上面他就是青少年把它加在一起齁就是那個成色的部分是少年\n那兩個加起來右邊合計是4.7那當然我們謝謝吳委員的指教那我想說我們這個題目沒有委員聳聽啦因為這個數據是警政署他有一個合計所以我們今天的題目是\n親少年不是說少年是4.7萬我這邊就那個會議議程因為剛剛吳委員有問到那我就在這邊簡單說明一下好謝謝那我們請那個法務部長還有警政署署長還有副秘來麻煩有請司法院副秘書長法務部部長以及警政署的署長委員好\n好 謝謝我想說今天這個少年輔導矯正這個為什麼今天有這麼多部長級的人都來我想是大家都很重視這個議題啦那這個議題其實我覺得已經是少子化高齡化再來青少年犯罪這個都是國安的問題因為青少年他們將來進入社會之後那他們會不會在少年時期他對於這個社會的一些對他的影響然後造成他們對於價值觀等等的這個\n那個錯誤會不會導致將來他成年之後對社會會有重大影響所以我一直所以今天我想說這麼多部長都有過來也是很感謝各位部長我想我們這幾年我們看到的一個狀況就是\n青少年他的犯罪的比例其實一直在增加所以我們看到一個數字來看其實12到17歲的少年在這五年其實他是一直往上衝的他的成長率是增加然後我們今天又看到警政署的報告再加上我們其實少子化的問題\n發生的件數跟我們的分母整個比起來的話其實數字是很驚人的增加我這樣子來算了一下大概犯罪其實是高達增加率是高達兩成所以我剛剛是說\n除了案件數之外我們還有一個少子化所導致的分母其實是減少所以這樣比較起來其實他的犯罪率他是在往上升的而且青少年他們最常涉犯的案件大概就是兩個一個是詐欺然後另外一個是妨害秩序那我們看到這幾年的報告看起來其實很多青少年他會被利用去當作車手\n那車手的話我們就知道他整個詐欺行為他是最底下最底層的那個行為者而且是最容易被抓到的等於是這些人他擔負的是詐欺集團裡面最危險的工作但是也是獲利最低的工作\n那我記得我以前在處理案件的時候這些人他們有時候分到的大概只有他們詐騙到金額的可能是1%或2%這麼低那也是九成以上的錢其實是擔任風險不高的人他們都分走所以這些小朋友他們做最危險的工作領最少的錢\n但是他這個犯罪的記錄啊其實雖然說他成年之後他不會顯示在前科表上但是其實大家也都知道從院檢的系統還是看得到他過往在那個青少年時候的一些資料好那現在變成少年變成免洗塊所以我最近又看到那個一篇那個桃園地檢署那個陳嘉義檢察官他有投書全國律師的一篇文章其實他就點出了我們目前\n我們目前我們想要走向這個行政先行的概念之下他可能會產生的一些狀況我想行政輔導先行在現行的偵查上面會有幾個問題我就引用這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章的內容他第一個他會造成偵查主體的割裂所以偵查一個現在的犯罪他不會就是說\n成年人跟未成年人他們壁壘分明他不會這樣他通常是混成一團所以到最後變成成年人的犯罪偵查是由檢察官由司法偵查有檢察官去處理但是呢少年犯如果以行政先行的概念變成是由少年法庭所以將變成一個犯罪是有兩個不同的指揮系統在指揮更何況法官因為他的那個職業訓練他對於偵查的理解性可能沒那麼高那\n兩雙頭馬車之後他可能造成偵查秘密的外洩還有偵查不同調甚至就是說他沒有一概的去判斷案子的全貌的話他可能造成要羈押等等的狀況也比較不容易但是呢如果只要有一個人沒有押那可能就會把整個犯罪偵查的東西都流出去我想這個各位\n都是第一線司法實務的在座都是檢察官法官跟警察所以都很了解我剛剛提到的這個問題所以我們現在要去思考就是說這幾年運作下來這個行政先行的這個東西到底在實務上面運作有沒有發生很大的問題會不會反而對於\n犯罪的偵查我們要去把它一鍋把它端掉把它處理掉不要讓這個犯罪集團繼續存在變成是我們為了保護小朋友就讓這個犯罪集團完全無法再追查下去繼續壯大繼續收新的\n小朋友進來我的意思就是說我們以前的偵查模式是會溯源把整個集團瓦解掉但是現在的狀況要行政先行的話變成未成年人交給法院然後成年人有檢察官那這樣子的狀況會變成是查緝偵查犯罪團體的時候你很難向上去溯源\n那這樣變成是小朋友像免洗筷一樣這批小朋友被抓了抓進去然後去送輔導了那犯罪團體繼續去吸收新的小朋友進來那反而行政先行沒有解決掉現在犯罪新少年犯罪的問題他反而讓被害的人越來越多這是那個我看了這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章之後然後再講我自己以前處理案件的概念我覺得這會有一個小問題那我會同時給各位參考\n就是希望說大家也能夠思考一下包括教育部或是衛福部這邊也能夠思考一下會有這個問題那再來還有一個問題是少府會的功能還是有限因為少府會它目前它的組織層級很低然後它可能是站在各個縣市政府或者是警察機關而且它是被動的開案還有一個很重要的點是\n這次警政署報告有提到它是缺乏約束力我是特別要感謝警政署署長因為我覺得這次的報告是我看過非常棒的一份報告那我也很希望說其他部會也能參考一下那個警政署這次提出來的報告因為看過以後我真的覺得警政署這報告非常非常的完整\n那我今天會提這個專報呢其實我一個很重要的點是我剛提到我個人覺得青少年犯罪還是已經到我覺得這是國家安全的問題了啦因為他是未來整個社會\n問題就會從他年輕的時候他的態度的偏差之後然後長大之後會影響到這個社會尤其是我剛剛有提到的詐欺是現在青少年犯罪的很嚴重的一環所以這個都會影響到社會那另外我自己念書的時候我念那個\n那公共衛生的領域嘛那我們那時候有念到社會流行病學裡面有一個致病社會的致病因子那社會的致病因子其實它來源是非常多包括這個社會給小朋友啊家庭給小朋友或教育給小朋友把累積到最後就是讓這個人偏差了所以我想到各位為什麼今天來那麼多部會也是要跟各位報告從社會流行\n並學的角度去看其實各個部會所管轄的東西對於小朋友的發展我覺得那個都有很重要的關聯性雖然說我覺得行政院有提一個在今年2月的時候他有一個就是找史哲政委還有陳時中政委有用一個跨部會的那個\n那個會議喔 希望說就這個改善兒少的這個環境但是喔 也是蠻特別的啦 就是說啊不是知道使得要去當高鐵的董事長 為什麼又突然還叫他去領導這個齁那這個是我覺得行政院這個用人應該是很早就布局好 怎麼還會讓他來負責一個這麼重大的一件事情喔 這個我現在還是想不通啦 所以我在前面提那麼多 我主要就是說 第一個我想點 告訴各位\n這青少年的問題這是跨好幾個部會的問題不是單一個部會而且從社會流行病學的角度去看它的影響本來就是跟現在目前在座各個部長有關那第二個就是我是希望說在一個月一個月內能夠請司法院法務部教育部衛福部還有警政署能夠再送一份報告給我但是這份報告我是希望說大家能夠參考彼此今天提出來的資料\n好不好因為我今天看完各位的資料之後我發現各個部會所講出來的東西彼此之間有道理但是沒有橫向的聯繫所以我剛才提到說因為我看完警政我覺得警政組的資料最完整那麻煩其他的部會能夠參考一下然後給我一份資料因為我接下來我也是想要就這個青少年犯罪的部分行政先行到底\n是不是一個解決問題的方式還是反而製造更多問題我想要去從修法的角度去解決這個問題或是政策上面我能夠提供一些建議我想解決這個才能夠紓解末端\n末端成年犯的問題啦所以我想說這個在我個人覺得是很重要那而且我之前在蔡新祥部長的時代我也都有跟他就這個部分有一直跟他去提要怎麼樣去做犯罪的少年犯的源頭打擊讓這些人犯罪者黑幫不要進到校園這也是我目前我一直很重視希望處理的一個面向我一直\n上禮拜立法院有去 城鎮中學有去參訪有去考察 我們發現其實私生筆和借戶筆其實是有很嚴重的失衡這部分麻煩法務部長也能夠注意一下城鎮中學的那個部分最後我想請教法務部\n因為跨部會我們剛剛提到的就是鄭麗君副院長跟石澤政委陳時中政委他們在二月的時候開的那個跨部會的會議到現在我想請問一下過了四個月了法務部有沒有什麼具體的作為\n這部分這個跨部會的這一次的一個會議我是不是請我們那個我們那個等一下就說明一下就是這個會議跨部會議之後你們的作為是什麼\n這個跨部會這部分最主要是一個成少共犯的一個分工那我們法務部因為不是少年的一個在一個查緝方就我們法務部沒有角色而且少年事件處長是不准我們檢察官去介入的所以我們現在很努力的就是少角學校那部分以及就是那個\n那個宣導的那一部分嘛那這部分我們也會跟各部會就那個預防的這個一個少年方案這我們會跟內政部跟其他部會來做一個合作欸不是啦 這個但我就沒有聽到那個答案啦因為因為不是啦 法務部是處理成年犯沒有錯啊但是我剛剛一直講到現在是成年犯跟未成年犯他們沒辦法割裂嘛他們現在都是一個包裹在一起犯罪團體都是這樣啊\n所以保護部不能說 各位才能跟我們有關當然這邊因為那個成年部分 當然滿18歲這邊的成年的這部分那我們這個 因為他所以在涉及詐欺等這些的話 最主要是詐欺啦那這邊我們會做一個重點的一個查緝的一個項目 那會依據而權法裡面的來做一個加重的一個求刑不能這樣啦 保護部這樣 我想要時間的關係我也\n不期待說在現在問出東西但至少可以在一個月內回給我的資料裡面能夠包含到就是二月開完這個會到現在這四個月那請問具體的方案是什麼那至少你要告訴我將來是跨部會是誰領軍哪一個單位執行那執行的期程是什麼怎麼執行\n這些東西你至少內容要給我那這部分我就跟委員報告事實上在三月因為二月之後三月十四號我們有檢察長會有請各地邀請少年法庭剛才我有報告的延長那另外三月二十一號抬高檢也拜會\n市法院少家庭來延伤相關的議題4月7號也還請各地檢署邀請少年法庭法院司法警察機關來做一個延伤嘛那5月15號韓府行政院就有關少年檢驗資料的需求項目我們做一個延伤來一個解決那這個詳細的事項我就書面報告來給我跟您講就是說不要用言議中來回答我因為像上次那個黃國昌委員說的\n他說他最怕的就是聽到演繹 因為演繹等於不做 但我自己在呃 擔任局長的時候 我自己底下的那個同仁 我對\n我對長官說的演繹兩個字就是我們已經積極在做我的演繹永遠不是說不做的意思到這邊常常演繹就是不做的最後我想說也是要請那個部長請教部長一個就是說我還是因為部長昨天有發一個新聞稿嘛就新聞稿說因為我跟你講這兩天昨天我們辦公室就接到很多那個民眾打來電話來說蔣陽關開零態度不佳這件事情\n因為我有看到那個新聞稿有說部長說有一再的要求是不是我們這個本來就是有要求而且這個開庭態度的問題是列入年度的檢查的一個事項那上一次發文要求大家要依據刑事訴訟法98條出於懇切態度上一次發文請全國檢察官注意這件事是多久以前的事這回去我再提供\n因為你寫一載耶 你那個新聞稿寫一載部長有看過新聞稿嗎你說什麼時候的話我會去再做因為一道中文的理解就是反覆的要求嘛而且因為這也列入那個年度的一個業務檢查的一個項目嘛那我想這個我們都是評論所以到底有還是沒有這個我們會把相關的資料再提供給委員\n另外我要講一個就是說因為剛剛有很多委員有提出這個質疑啦還有我自己也一直質疑就是剛剛部長有跟其他委員有一來一往在那邊講甚至還講到違照文書啦違照電池紀錄啦侵害個資啦那當然\n我到現在我還是沒有辦法理解因為禮拜一是我當主席啦那我說真的現場我本來也是覺得奇怪這個東西能夠播放嘛但是後來黃委員當場有說這個不是啊那如果播放一個不是的他已經在現場說他不是回家才偷偷說他現場說這個不是開庭的錄音了那為什麼\n為什麼部長剛剛的回覆還一直可以講到偽造文書然後還有人講偽造電子紀錄所以我想這樣啦我非常的期待法務部能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員跟委員報告要不要給我這個所謂那個本來這個我們黃委員的他那時候這個我有整理出來喔\n這個意思是要播放這個要播放給我聽喔什麼叫入貿什麼叫恐嚇喔他是用個案的這部分來講我一直很反對我說不要千萬不要我忘記了最後播完後播完之後才跟我講這是示範帶他有說是針對哪一個案子嗎因為我現在一下忘了我記憶力不太好這個已經就講了朱將軍等等這個我一聽就知道是哪個個案了嘛為什麼\n這個聽起來就是個案了 這個是個案了所以委員你在質詢我 你也說這個不適合在播放嘛部長我有講一件事情喔 部長你不要亂帶風向喔我沒有帶風向喔部長等一下 如果今天黃國昌委員當場是播放證訊的內容的話我一定會制止啊\n但是他那時候已經說 不能這樣好了啦部長我覺得啦 部長我跟你說齁這個是這個錄音的 錄音檔這個來源不明真為莫辯嘛這個真的有嚴重誤導這個視聽那黃委員到後來才講說這是屬於那個那個那個什麼\n市判代 市判代是不是真的再來造假 再來檢驗因為剛剛王逸川委員有告發我們可以再去調查起來做一個鑑定嘛我跟你講 部長我問東你答西我問東你回答西喔部長 這樣好不好因為王逸川委員剛剛有告發我們的黃委員嘛那我就希望趕快拜讀到起訴書到底是涉犯哪一個條文因為我說真的這兩天我想破頭我實在是不知道是涉犯什麼條文啊\n我真的想不出來 然後我剛剛也仔細看了一下立法院的執行法24 等一下 部長 部長我剛剛看了一下立法院執行法24條執行法24條 它有關質詢的提出啊它也沒有說不行這樣啊那所以我一直搞不懂 所以我很希望嚴辦黃國昌委員那我很希望拜讀起訴書的內容\n到底涉犯什麼條文我不要涉犯好不好因為黃委員怎麼會有這個袋子如果說是這種這個袋子只有檢察官法官才能聽得到另外就是一個被捕律師才有去按照刑事法第33條他可以提出來去做一個Copy這也是刑事刑事防禦權你剛剛講那30秒的前提是如果他當天放的是開庭的東西的話才會有你說的這些後面的法律效果\n那我想說 所以我們新聞稿有發表這個是來源不明 真偽 真偽莫辯沒關係啦 部長你這些論述絕對可以剪短影音出去講但是喔 我跟你說啦 部長我永遠在這裡講的一句話就是說話沒關係 你要做聲光效果 那給全國人民看我沒意見\n但是不要忘了我們國家有非常多法律專業的人他們懂我們在講什麼部長你要玩聲光效果那是你的事情你可以接受幾個小時的證訊可以做一個惡意的剪接嗎我想這個檢察官不能夠這樣做我跟你講你在講的東西我還是聽不懂你在講什麼本案跟剪接什麼關係本案跟剪接什麼關係剛剛還有人講是變造\n變照開庭的那個哪裡有變照我搞不清楚當事人已經講了說這個東西不是開庭的嘛那你一定要對號入座說他是哪一個案子然後又要對號入座說這個是開庭錄音的剪接\n然後我就跟你說啦 我現在沒有意見了啦部長 部長好啦 部長我跟你講 我問東尼達西正你在做什麼 我不是看不懂啦我腦子不是那麼不清楚 部長這樣好不好我就說了 我們就按照剛剛王一川委員的告發那就請貴部能夠督導檢察官能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員因為我很想看看這個起訴書到底是涉犯哪個條因為我的腦子一直想不出來\n聽不懂到底這個有哪裡構成犯罪 好不好那謝謝部長 再請部長嚴辦好 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.169 --> 00:22.546\n那個資訊開始前我先簡單的說明一下那個今天的題目啦因為剛剛有委員說是委員聳聽我跳一下那個警政署的數據齁那個2024年這個為什麼是4.7我想說這個不是委員聳聽啦因為這是數據上面他就是青少年把它加在一起齁就是那個成色的部分是少年\n\n00:23.186 --> 00:32.256\n那兩個加起來右邊合計是4.7那當然我們謝謝吳委員的指教那我想說我們這個題目沒有委員聳聽啦因為這個數據是警政署他有一個合計所以我們今天的題目是\n\n00:44.029 --> 01:10.939\n親少年不是說少年是4.7萬我這邊就那個會議議程因為剛剛吳委員有問到那我就在這邊簡單說明一下好謝謝那我們請那個法務部長還有警政署署長還有副秘來麻煩有請司法院副秘書長法務部部長以及警政署的署長委員好\n\n01:13.581 --> 01:41.880\n好謝謝我想說今天這個少年輔導矯正這個為什麼今天有這麼多部長級的人都來我想是大家都很重視這個議題啦那這個議題其實我覺得已經是少子化高齡化再來青少年犯罪這個都是國安的問題因為青少年他們將來進入社會之後那他們會不會在少年時期他對於這個社會的一些對他的影響然後造成他們對於價值觀等等的這個\n\n01:43.322 --> 01:56.982\n那個錯誤會不會導致將來他成年之後對社會會有重大影響所以我一直所以今天我想說這麼多部長都有過來也是很感謝各位部長我想我們這幾年我們看到的一個狀況就是\n\n01:58.965 --> 02:19.545\n青少年他的犯罪的比例其實一直在增加所以我們看到一個數字來看其實12到17歲的少年在這五年其實他是一直往上衝的他的成長率是增加然後我們今天又看到警政署的報告再加上我們其實少子化的問題\n\n02:21.668 --> 02:35.159\n發生的件數跟我們的分母整個比起來的話其實數字是很驚人的增加我這樣子來算了一下大概犯罪其實是高達增加率是高達兩成所以我剛剛是說\n\n02:36.560 --> 02:59.138\n除了案件數之外我們還有一個少子化所導致的分母其實是減少所以這樣比較起來其實他的犯罪率他是在往上升的而且青少年他們最常涉犯的案件大概就是兩個一個是詐欺然後另外一個是妨害秩序那我們看到這幾年的報告看起來其實很多青少年他會被利用去當作車手\n\n02:59.798 --> 03:14.546\n那車手的話我們就知道他整個詐欺行為他是最底下最底層的那個行為者而且是最容易被抓到的等於是這些人他擔負的是詐欺集團裡面最危險的工作但是也是獲利最低的工作\n\n03:15.086 --> 03:35.078\n那我記得我以前在處理案件的時候這些人他們有時候分到的大概只有他們詐騙到金額的可能是1%或2%這麼低那也是九成以上的錢其實是擔任風險不高的人他們都分走所以這些小朋友他們做最危險的工作領最少的錢\n\n03:36.599 --> 04:03.340\n但是他這個犯罪的記錄啊其實雖然說他成年之後他不會顯示在前科表上但是其實大家也都知道從院檢的系統還是看得到他過往在那個青少年時候的一些資料好那現在變成少年變成免洗塊所以我最近又看到那個一篇那個桃園地檢署那個陳嘉義檢察官他有投書全國律師的一篇文章其實他就點出了我們目前\n\n04:04.361 --> 04:26.651\n我們目前我們想要走向這個行政先行的概念之下他可能會產生的一些狀況我想行政輔導先行在現行的偵查上面會有幾個問題我就引用這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章的內容他第一個他會造成偵查主體的割裂所以偵查一個現在的犯罪他不會就是說\n\n04:27.611 --> 04:56.284\n成年人跟未成年人他們壁壘分明他不會這樣他通常是混成一團所以到最後變成成年人的犯罪偵查是由檢察官由司法偵查有檢察官去處理但是呢少年犯如果以行政先行的概念變成是由少年法庭所以將變成一個犯罪是有兩個不同的指揮系統在指揮更何況法官因為他的那個職業訓練他對於偵查的理解性可能沒那麼高那\n\n04:58.585 --> 05:20.836\n兩雙頭馬車之後他可能造成偵查秘密的外洩還有偵查不同調甚至就是說他沒有一概的去判斷案子的全貌的話他可能造成要羈押等等的狀況也比較不容易但是呢如果只要有一個人沒有押那可能就會把整個犯罪偵查的東西都流出去我想這個各位\n\n05:21.576 --> 05:39.088\n都是第一線司法實務的在座都是檢察官法官跟警察所以都很了解我剛剛提到的這個問題所以我們現在要去思考就是說這幾年運作下來這個行政先行的這個東西到底在實務上面運作有沒有發生很大的問題會不會反而對於\n\n05:40.109 --> 05:54.138\n犯罪的偵查我們要去把它一鍋把它端掉把它處理掉不要讓這個犯罪集團繼續存在變成是我們為了保護小朋友就讓這個犯罪集團完全無法再追查下去繼續壯大繼續收新的\n\n05:57.000 --> 06:16.752\n小朋友進來我的意思就是說我們以前的偵查模式是會溯源把整個集團瓦解掉但是現在的狀況要行政先行的話變成未成年人交給法院然後成年人有檢察官那這樣子的狀況會變成是查緝偵查犯罪團體的時候你很難向上去溯源\n\n06:17.552 --> 06:45.247\n那這樣變成是小朋友像免洗筷一樣這批小朋友被抓了抓進去然後去送輔導了那犯罪團體繼續去吸收新的小朋友進來那反而行政先行沒有解決掉現在犯罪新少年犯罪的問題他反而讓被害的人越來越多這是那個我看了這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章之後然後再講我自己以前處理案件的概念我覺得這會有一個小問題那我會同時給各位參考\n\n06:47.348 --> 07:12.083\n就是希望說大家也能夠思考一下包括教育部或是衛福部這邊也能夠思考一下會有這個問題那再來還有一個問題是少府會的功能還是有限因為少府會它目前它的組織層級很低然後它可能是站在各個縣市政府或者是警察機關而且它是被動的開案還有一個很重要的點是\n\n07:13.761 --> 07:33.897\n這次警政署報告有提到它是缺乏約束力我是特別要感謝警政署署長因為我覺得這次的報告是我看過非常棒的一份報告那我也很希望說其他部會也能參考一下那個警政署這次提出來的報告因為看過以後我真的覺得警政署這報告非常非常的完整\n\n07:34.657 --> 07:48.224\n那我今天會提這個專報呢其實我一個很重要的點是我剛提到我個人覺得青少年犯罪還是已經到我覺得這是國家安全的問題了啦因為他是未來整個社會\n\n07:51.377 --> 08:07.222\n問題就會從他年輕的時候他的態度的偏差之後然後長大之後會影響到這個社會尤其是我剛剛有提到的詐欺是現在青少年犯罪的很嚴重的一環所以這個都會影響到社會那另外我自己念書的時候我念那個\n\n08:08.717 --> 08:32.371\n那公共衛生的領域嘛那我們那時候有念到社會流行病學裡面有一個致病社會的致病因子那社會的致病因子其實它來源是非常多包括這個社會給小朋友啊家庭給小朋友或教育給小朋友把累積到最後就是讓這個人偏差了所以我想到各位為什麼今天來那麼多部會也是要跟各位報告從社會流行\n\n08:33.359 --> 08:56.771\n並學的角度去看其實各個部會所管轄的東西對於小朋友的發展我覺得那個都有很重要的關聯性雖然說我覺得行政院有提一個在今年2月的時候他有一個就是找史哲政委還有陳時中政委有用一個跨部會的那個\n\n08:57.796 --> 09:26.768\n那個會議喔希望說就這個改善兒少的這個環境但是喔也是蠻特別的啦就是說啊不是知道使得要去當高鐵的董事長為什麼又突然還叫他去領導這個齁那這個是我覺得行政院這個用人應該是很早就布局好怎麼還會讓他來負責一個這麼重大的一件事情喔這個我現在還是想不通啦所以我在前面提那麼多我主要就是說第一個我想點告訴各位\n\n09:27.648 --> 09:56.071\n這青少年的問題這是跨好幾個部會的問題不是單一個部會而且從社會流行病學的角度去看它的影響本來就是跟現在目前在座各個部長有關那第二個就是我是希望說在一個月一個月內能夠請司法院法務部教育部衛福部還有警政署能夠再送一份報告給我但是這份報告我是希望說大家能夠參考彼此今天提出來的資料\n\n09:56.772 --> 10:18.461\n好不好因為我今天看完各位的資料之後我發現各個部會所講出來的東西彼此之間有道理但是沒有橫向的聯繫所以我剛才提到說因為我看完警政我覺得警政組的資料最完整那麻煩其他的部會能夠參考一下然後給我一份資料因為我接下來我也是想要就這個青少年犯罪的部分行政先行到底\n\n10:19.281 --> 10:34.067\n是不是一個解決問題的方式還是反而製造更多問題我想要去從修法的角度去解決這個問題或是政策上面我能夠提供一些建議我想解決這個才能夠紓解末端\n\n10:34.887 --> 10:59.405\n末端成年犯的問題啦所以我想說這個在我個人覺得是很重要那而且我之前在蔡新祥部長的時代我也都有跟他就這個部分有一直跟他去提要怎麼樣去做犯罪的少年犯的源頭打擊讓這些人犯罪者黑幫不要進到校園這也是我目前我一直很重視希望處理的一個面向我一直\n\n11:01.747 --> 11:24.321\n上禮拜立法院有去城鎮中學有去參訪有去考察我們發現其實私生筆和借戶筆其實是有很嚴重的失衡這部分麻煩法務部長也能夠注意一下城鎮中學的那個部分最後我想請教法務部\n\n11:25.322 --> 11:40.576\n因為跨部會我們剛剛提到的就是鄭麗君副院長跟石澤政委陳時中政委他們在二月的時候開的那個跨部會的會議到現在我想請問一下過了四個月了法務部有沒有什麼具體的作為\n\n11:42.096 --> 11:54.868\n這部分這個跨部會的這一次的一個會議我是不是請我們那個我們那個等一下就說明一下就是這個會議跨部會議之後你們的作為是什麼\n\n11:57.931 --> 12:17.030\n這個跨部會這部分最主要是一個成少共犯的一個分工那我們法務部因為不是少年的一個在一個查緝方就我們法務部沒有角色而且少年事件處長是不准我們檢察官去介入的所以我們現在很努力的就是少角學校那部分以及就是那個\n\n12:18.751 --> 12:44.000\n那個宣導的那一部分嘛那這部分我們也會跟各部會就那個預防的這個一個少年方案這我們會跟內政部跟其他部會來做一個合作欸不是啦這個但我就沒有聽到那個答案啦因為因為不是啦法務部是處理成年犯沒有錯啊但是我剛剛一直講到現在是成年犯跟未成年犯他們沒辦法割裂嘛他們現在都是一個包裹在一起犯罪團體都是這樣啊\n\n12:44.540 --> 13:05.108\n所以保護部不能說各位才能跟我們有關當然這邊因為那個成年部分當然滿18歲這邊的成年的這部分那我們這個因為他所以在涉及詐欺等這些的話最主要是詐欺啦那這邊我們會做一個重點的一個查緝的一個項目那會依據而權法裡面的來做一個加重的一個求刑不能這樣啦保護部這樣我想要時間的關係我也\n\n13:07.029 --> 13:25.776\n不期待說在現在問出東西但至少可以在一個月內回給我的資料裡面能夠包含到就是二月開完這個會到現在這四個月那請問具體的方案是什麼那至少你要告訴我將來是跨部會是誰領軍哪一個單位執行那執行的期程是什麼怎麼執行\n\n13:27.857 --> 13:41.985\n這些東西你至少內容要給我那這部分我就跟委員報告事實上在三月因為二月之後三月十四號我們有檢察長會有請各地邀請少年法庭剛才我有報告的延長那另外三月二十一號抬高檢也拜會\n\n13:42.845 --> 14:08.244\n市法院少家庭來延伤相關的議題4月7號也還請各地檢署邀請少年法庭法院司法警察機關來做一個延伤嘛那5月15號韓府行政院就有關少年檢驗資料的需求項目我們做一個延伤來一個解決那這個詳細的事項我就書面報告來給我跟您講就是說不要用言議中來回答我因為像上次那個黃國昌委員說的\n\n14:10.746 --> 14:19.531\n他說他最怕的就是聽到演繹因為演繹等於不做但我自己在呃擔任局長的時候我自己底下的那個同仁我對\n\n14:20.933 --> 14:49.812\n我對長官說的演繹兩個字就是我們已經積極在做我的演繹永遠不是說不做的意思到這邊常常演繹就是不做的最後我想說也是要請那個部長請教部長一個就是說我還是因為部長昨天有發一個新聞稿嘛就新聞稿說因為我跟你講這兩天昨天我們辦公室就接到很多那個民眾打來電話來說蔣陽關開零態度不佳這件事情\n\n14:52.314 --> 15:15.747\n因為我有看到那個新聞稿有說部長說有一再的要求是不是我們這個本來就是有要求而且這個開庭態度的問題是列入年度的檢查的一個事項那上一次發文要求大家要依據刑事訴訟法98條出於懇切態度上一次發文請全國檢察官注意這件事是多久以前的事這回去我再提供\n\n15:18.093 --> 15:42.808\n因為你寫一載耶你那個新聞稿寫一載部長有看過新聞稿嗎你說什麼時候的話我會去再做因為一道中文的理解就是反覆的要求嘛而且因為這也列入那個年度的一個業務檢查的一個項目嘛那我想這個我們都是評論所以到底有還是沒有這個我們會把相關的資料再提供給委員\n\n15:43.809 --> 15:57.475\n另外我要講一個就是說因為剛剛有很多委員有提出這個質疑啦還有我自己也一直質疑就是剛剛部長有跟其他委員有一來一往在那邊講甚至還講到違照文書啦違照電池紀錄啦侵害個資啦那當然\n\n15:59.540 --> 16:22.550\n我到現在我還是沒有辦法理解因為禮拜一是我當主席啦那我說真的現場我本來也是覺得奇怪這個東西能夠播放嘛但是後來黃委員當場有說這個不是啊那如果播放一個不是的他已經在現場說他不是回家才偷偷說他現場說這個不是開庭的錄音了那為什麼\n\n16:23.810 --> 16:38.538\n為什麼部長剛剛的回覆還一直可以講到偽造文書然後還有人講偽造電子紀錄所以我想這樣啦我非常的期待法務部能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員跟委員報告要不要給我這個所謂那個本來這個我們黃委員的他那時候這個我有整理出來喔\n\n16:47.082 --> 17:12.702\n這個意思是要播放這個要播放給我聽喔什麼叫入貿什麼叫恐嚇喔他是用個案的這部分來講我一直很反對我說不要千萬不要我忘記了最後播完後播完之後才跟我講這是示範帶他有說是針對哪一個案子嗎因為我現在一下忘了我記憶力不太好這個已經就講了朱將軍等等這個我一聽就知道是哪個個案了嘛為什麼\n\n17:14.043 --> 17:27.527\n這個聽起來就是個案了這個是個案了所以委員你在質詢我你也說這個不適合在播放嘛部長我有講一件事情喔部長你不要亂帶風向喔我沒有帶風向喔部長等一下如果今天黃國昌委員當場是播放證訊的內容的話我一定會制止啊\n\n17:40.310 --> 17:51.839\n但是他那時候已經說不能這樣好了啦部長我覺得啦部長我跟你說齁這個是這個錄音的錄音檔這個來源不明真為莫辯嘛這個真的有嚴重誤導這個視聽那黃委員到後來才講說這是屬於那個那個那個什麼\n\n17:55.402 --> 18:23.655\n市判代市判代是不是真的再來造假再來檢驗因為剛剛王逸川委員有告發我們可以再去調查起來做一個鑑定嘛我跟你講部長我問東你答西我問東你回答西喔部長這樣好不好因為王逸川委員剛剛有告發我們的黃委員嘛那我就希望趕快拜讀到起訴書到底是涉犯哪一個條文因為我說真的這兩天我想破頭我實在是不知道是涉犯什麼條文啊\n\n18:24.375 --> 18:29.640\n我真的想不出來然後我剛剛也仔細看了一下立法院的執行法24等一下部長部長我剛剛看了一下立法院執行法24條執行法24條它有關質詢的提出啊它也沒有說不行這樣啊那所以我一直搞不懂所以我很希望嚴辦黃國昌委員那我很希望拜讀起訴書的內容\n\n18:45.273 --> 19:11.048\n到底涉犯什麼條文我不要涉犯好不好因為黃委員怎麼會有這個袋子如果說是這種這個袋子只有檢察官法官才能聽得到另外就是一個被捕律師才有去按照刑事法第33條他可以提出來去做一個Copy這也是刑事刑事防禦權你剛剛講那30秒的前提是如果他當天放的是開庭的東西的話才會有你說的這些後面的法律效果\n\n19:11.488 --> 19:21.217\n那我想說所以我們新聞稿有發表這個是來源不明真偽真偽莫辯沒關係啦部長你這些論述絕對可以剪短影音出去講但是喔我跟你說啦部長我永遠在這裡講的一句話就是說話沒關係你要做聲光效果那給全國人民看我沒意見\n\n19:32.267 --> 19:55.023\n但是不要忘了我們國家有非常多法律專業的人他們懂我們在講什麼部長你要玩聲光效果那是你的事情你可以接受幾個小時的證訊可以做一個惡意的剪接嗎我想這個檢察官不能夠這樣做我跟你講你在講的東西我還是聽不懂你在講什麼本案跟剪接什麼關係本案跟剪接什麼關係剛剛還有人講是變造\n\n20:00.507 --> 20:15.637\n變照開庭的那個哪裡有變照我搞不清楚當事人已經講了說這個東西不是開庭的嘛那你一定要對號入座說他是哪一個案子然後又要對號入座說這個是開庭錄音的剪接\n\n20:16.357 --> 20:25.063\n然後我就跟你說啦我現在沒有意見了啦部長部長好啦部長我跟你講我問東尼達西正你在做什麼我不是看不懂啦我腦子不是那麼不清楚部長這樣好不好我就說了我們就按照剛剛王一川委員的告發那就請貴部能夠督導檢察官能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員因為我很想看看這個起訴書到底是涉犯哪個條因為我的腦子一直想不出來\n\n20:46.738 --> 20:50.364\n聽不懂到底這個有哪裡構成犯罪好不好那謝謝部長再請部長嚴辦好謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.169,"end":22.546,"text":"那個資訊開始前我先簡單的說明一下那個今天的題目啦因為剛剛有委員說是委員聳聽我跳一下那個警政署的數據齁那個2024年這個為什麼是4.7我想說這個不是委員聳聽啦因為這是數據上面他就是青少年把它加在一起齁就是那個成色的部分是少年"},{"start":23.186,"end":32.256,"text":"那兩個加起來右邊合計是4.7那當然我們謝謝吳委員的指教那我想說我們這個題目沒有委員聳聽啦因為這個數據是警政署他有一個合計所以我們今天的題目是"},{"start":44.029,"end":70.939,"text":"親少年不是說少年是4.7萬我這邊就那個會議議程因為剛剛吳委員有問到那我就在這邊簡單說明一下好謝謝那我們請那個法務部長還有警政署署長還有副秘來麻煩有請司法院副秘書長法務部部長以及警政署的署長委員好"},{"start":73.581,"end":101.88,"text":"好 謝謝我想說今天這個少年輔導矯正這個為什麼今天有這麼多部長級的人都來我想是大家都很重視這個議題啦那這個議題其實我覺得已經是少子化高齡化再來青少年犯罪這個都是國安的問題因為青少年他們將來進入社會之後那他們會不會在少年時期他對於這個社會的一些對他的影響然後造成他們對於價值觀等等的這個"},{"start":103.322,"end":116.982,"text":"那個錯誤會不會導致將來他成年之後對社會會有重大影響所以我一直所以今天我想說這麼多部長都有過來也是很感謝各位部長我想我們這幾年我們看到的一個狀況就是"},{"start":118.965,"end":139.545,"text":"青少年他的犯罪的比例其實一直在增加所以我們看到一個數字來看其實12到17歲的少年在這五年其實他是一直往上衝的他的成長率是增加然後我們今天又看到警政署的報告再加上我們其實少子化的問題"},{"start":141.668,"end":155.159,"text":"發生的件數跟我們的分母整個比起來的話其實數字是很驚人的增加我這樣子來算了一下大概犯罪其實是高達增加率是高達兩成所以我剛剛是說"},{"start":156.56,"end":179.138,"text":"除了案件數之外我們還有一個少子化所導致的分母其實是減少所以這樣比較起來其實他的犯罪率他是在往上升的而且青少年他們最常涉犯的案件大概就是兩個一個是詐欺然後另外一個是妨害秩序那我們看到這幾年的報告看起來其實很多青少年他會被利用去當作車手"},{"start":179.798,"end":194.546,"text":"那車手的話我們就知道他整個詐欺行為他是最底下最底層的那個行為者而且是最容易被抓到的等於是這些人他擔負的是詐欺集團裡面最危險的工作但是也是獲利最低的工作"},{"start":195.086,"end":215.078,"text":"那我記得我以前在處理案件的時候這些人他們有時候分到的大概只有他們詐騙到金額的可能是1%或2%這麼低那也是九成以上的錢其實是擔任風險不高的人他們都分走所以這些小朋友他們做最危險的工作領最少的錢"},{"start":216.599,"end":243.34,"text":"但是他這個犯罪的記錄啊其實雖然說他成年之後他不會顯示在前科表上但是其實大家也都知道從院檢的系統還是看得到他過往在那個青少年時候的一些資料好那現在變成少年變成免洗塊所以我最近又看到那個一篇那個桃園地檢署那個陳嘉義檢察官他有投書全國律師的一篇文章其實他就點出了我們目前"},{"start":244.361,"end":266.651,"text":"我們目前我們想要走向這個行政先行的概念之下他可能會產生的一些狀況我想行政輔導先行在現行的偵查上面會有幾個問題我就引用這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章的內容他第一個他會造成偵查主體的割裂所以偵查一個現在的犯罪他不會就是說"},{"start":267.611,"end":296.284,"text":"成年人跟未成年人他們壁壘分明他不會這樣他通常是混成一團所以到最後變成成年人的犯罪偵查是由檢察官由司法偵查有檢察官去處理但是呢少年犯如果以行政先行的概念變成是由少年法庭所以將變成一個犯罪是有兩個不同的指揮系統在指揮更何況法官因為他的那個職業訓練他對於偵查的理解性可能沒那麼高那"},{"start":298.585,"end":320.836,"text":"兩雙頭馬車之後他可能造成偵查秘密的外洩還有偵查不同調甚至就是說他沒有一概的去判斷案子的全貌的話他可能造成要羈押等等的狀況也比較不容易但是呢如果只要有一個人沒有押那可能就會把整個犯罪偵查的東西都流出去我想這個各位"},{"start":321.576,"end":339.088,"text":"都是第一線司法實務的在座都是檢察官法官跟警察所以都很了解我剛剛提到的這個問題所以我們現在要去思考就是說這幾年運作下來這個行政先行的這個東西到底在實務上面運作有沒有發生很大的問題會不會反而對於"},{"start":340.109,"end":354.138,"text":"犯罪的偵查我們要去把它一鍋把它端掉把它處理掉不要讓這個犯罪集團繼續存在變成是我們為了保護小朋友就讓這個犯罪集團完全無法再追查下去繼續壯大繼續收新的"},{"start":357,"end":376.752,"text":"小朋友進來我的意思就是說我們以前的偵查模式是會溯源把整個集團瓦解掉但是現在的狀況要行政先行的話變成未成年人交給法院然後成年人有檢察官那這樣子的狀況會變成是查緝偵查犯罪團體的時候你很難向上去溯源"},{"start":377.552,"end":405.247,"text":"那這樣變成是小朋友像免洗筷一樣這批小朋友被抓了抓進去然後去送輔導了那犯罪團體繼續去吸收新的小朋友進來那反而行政先行沒有解決掉現在犯罪新少年犯罪的問題他反而讓被害的人越來越多這是那個我看了這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章之後然後再講我自己以前處理案件的概念我覺得這會有一個小問題那我會同時給各位參考"},{"start":407.348,"end":432.083,"text":"就是希望說大家也能夠思考一下包括教育部或是衛福部這邊也能夠思考一下會有這個問題那再來還有一個問題是少府會的功能還是有限因為少府會它目前它的組織層級很低然後它可能是站在各個縣市政府或者是警察機關而且它是被動的開案還有一個很重要的點是"},{"start":433.761,"end":453.897,"text":"這次警政署報告有提到它是缺乏約束力我是特別要感謝警政署署長因為我覺得這次的報告是我看過非常棒的一份報告那我也很希望說其他部會也能參考一下那個警政署這次提出來的報告因為看過以後我真的覺得警政署這報告非常非常的完整"},{"start":454.657,"end":468.224,"text":"那我今天會提這個專報呢其實我一個很重要的點是我剛提到我個人覺得青少年犯罪還是已經到我覺得這是國家安全的問題了啦因為他是未來整個社會"},{"start":471.377,"end":487.222,"text":"問題就會從他年輕的時候他的態度的偏差之後然後長大之後會影響到這個社會尤其是我剛剛有提到的詐欺是現在青少年犯罪的很嚴重的一環所以這個都會影響到社會那另外我自己念書的時候我念那個"},{"start":488.717,"end":512.371,"text":"那公共衛生的領域嘛那我們那時候有念到社會流行病學裡面有一個致病社會的致病因子那社會的致病因子其實它來源是非常多包括這個社會給小朋友啊家庭給小朋友或教育給小朋友把累積到最後就是讓這個人偏差了所以我想到各位為什麼今天來那麼多部會也是要跟各位報告從社會流行"},{"start":513.359,"end":536.771,"text":"並學的角度去看其實各個部會所管轄的東西對於小朋友的發展我覺得那個都有很重要的關聯性雖然說我覺得行政院有提一個在今年2月的時候他有一個就是找史哲政委還有陳時中政委有用一個跨部會的那個"},{"start":537.796,"end":566.768,"text":"那個會議喔 希望說就這個改善兒少的這個環境但是喔 也是蠻特別的啦 就是說啊不是知道使得要去當高鐵的董事長 為什麼又突然還叫他去領導這個齁那這個是我覺得行政院這個用人應該是很早就布局好 怎麼還會讓他來負責一個這麼重大的一件事情喔 這個我現在還是想不通啦 所以我在前面提那麼多 我主要就是說 第一個我想點 告訴各位"},{"start":567.648,"end":596.071,"text":"這青少年的問題這是跨好幾個部會的問題不是單一個部會而且從社會流行病學的角度去看它的影響本來就是跟現在目前在座各個部長有關那第二個就是我是希望說在一個月一個月內能夠請司法院法務部教育部衛福部還有警政署能夠再送一份報告給我但是這份報告我是希望說大家能夠參考彼此今天提出來的資料"},{"start":596.772,"end":618.461,"text":"好不好因為我今天看完各位的資料之後我發現各個部會所講出來的東西彼此之間有道理但是沒有橫向的聯繫所以我剛才提到說因為我看完警政我覺得警政組的資料最完整那麻煩其他的部會能夠參考一下然後給我一份資料因為我接下來我也是想要就這個青少年犯罪的部分行政先行到底"},{"start":619.281,"end":634.067,"text":"是不是一個解決問題的方式還是反而製造更多問題我想要去從修法的角度去解決這個問題或是政策上面我能夠提供一些建議我想解決這個才能夠紓解末端"},{"start":634.887,"end":659.405,"text":"末端成年犯的問題啦所以我想說這個在我個人覺得是很重要那而且我之前在蔡新祥部長的時代我也都有跟他就這個部分有一直跟他去提要怎麼樣去做犯罪的少年犯的源頭打擊讓這些人犯罪者黑幫不要進到校園這也是我目前我一直很重視希望處理的一個面向我一直"},{"start":661.747,"end":684.321,"text":"上禮拜立法院有去 城鎮中學有去參訪有去考察 我們發現其實私生筆和借戶筆其實是有很嚴重的失衡這部分麻煩法務部長也能夠注意一下城鎮中學的那個部分最後我想請教法務部"},{"start":685.322,"end":700.576,"text":"因為跨部會我們剛剛提到的就是鄭麗君副院長跟石澤政委陳時中政委他們在二月的時候開的那個跨部會的會議到現在我想請問一下過了四個月了法務部有沒有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":702.096,"end":714.868,"text":"這部分這個跨部會的這一次的一個會議我是不是請我們那個我們那個等一下就說明一下就是這個會議跨部會議之後你們的作為是什麼"},{"start":717.931,"end":737.03,"text":"這個跨部會這部分最主要是一個成少共犯的一個分工那我們法務部因為不是少年的一個在一個查緝方就我們法務部沒有角色而且少年事件處長是不准我們檢察官去介入的所以我們現在很努力的就是少角學校那部分以及就是那個"},{"start":738.751,"end":764,"text":"那個宣導的那一部分嘛那這部分我們也會跟各部會就那個預防的這個一個少年方案這我們會跟內政部跟其他部會來做一個合作欸不是啦 這個但我就沒有聽到那個答案啦因為因為不是啦 法務部是處理成年犯沒有錯啊但是我剛剛一直講到現在是成年犯跟未成年犯他們沒辦法割裂嘛他們現在都是一個包裹在一起犯罪團體都是這樣啊"},{"start":764.54,"end":785.108,"text":"所以保護部不能說 各位才能跟我們有關當然這邊因為那個成年部分 當然滿18歲這邊的成年的這部分那我們這個 因為他所以在涉及詐欺等這些的話 最主要是詐欺啦那這邊我們會做一個重點的一個查緝的一個項目 那會依據而權法裡面的來做一個加重的一個求刑不能這樣啦 保護部這樣 我想要時間的關係我也"},{"start":787.029,"end":805.776,"text":"不期待說在現在問出東西但至少可以在一個月內回給我的資料裡面能夠包含到就是二月開完這個會到現在這四個月那請問具體的方案是什麼那至少你要告訴我將來是跨部會是誰領軍哪一個單位執行那執行的期程是什麼怎麼執行"},{"start":807.857,"end":821.985,"text":"這些東西你至少內容要給我那這部分我就跟委員報告事實上在三月因為二月之後三月十四號我們有檢察長會有請各地邀請少年法庭剛才我有報告的延長那另外三月二十一號抬高檢也拜會"},{"start":822.845,"end":848.244,"text":"市法院少家庭來延伤相關的議題4月7號也還請各地檢署邀請少年法庭法院司法警察機關來做一個延伤嘛那5月15號韓府行政院就有關少年檢驗資料的需求項目我們做一個延伤來一個解決那這個詳細的事項我就書面報告來給我跟您講就是說不要用言議中來回答我因為像上次那個黃國昌委員說的"},{"start":850.746,"end":859.531,"text":"他說他最怕的就是聽到演繹 因為演繹等於不做 但我自己在呃 擔任局長的時候 我自己底下的那個同仁 我對"},{"start":860.933,"end":889.812,"text":"我對長官說的演繹兩個字就是我們已經積極在做我的演繹永遠不是說不做的意思到這邊常常演繹就是不做的最後我想說也是要請那個部長請教部長一個就是說我還是因為部長昨天有發一個新聞稿嘛就新聞稿說因為我跟你講這兩天昨天我們辦公室就接到很多那個民眾打來電話來說蔣陽關開零態度不佳這件事情"},{"start":892.314,"end":915.747,"text":"因為我有看到那個新聞稿有說部長說有一再的要求是不是我們這個本來就是有要求而且這個開庭態度的問題是列入年度的檢查的一個事項那上一次發文要求大家要依據刑事訴訟法98條出於懇切態度上一次發文請全國檢察官注意這件事是多久以前的事這回去我再提供"},{"start":918.093,"end":942.808,"text":"因為你寫一載耶 你那個新聞稿寫一載部長有看過新聞稿嗎你說什麼時候的話我會去再做因為一道中文的理解就是反覆的要求嘛而且因為這也列入那個年度的一個業務檢查的一個項目嘛那我想這個我們都是評論所以到底有還是沒有這個我們會把相關的資料再提供給委員"},{"start":943.809,"end":957.475,"text":"另外我要講一個就是說因為剛剛有很多委員有提出這個質疑啦還有我自己也一直質疑就是剛剛部長有跟其他委員有一來一往在那邊講甚至還講到違照文書啦違照電池紀錄啦侵害個資啦那當然"},{"start":959.54,"end":982.55,"text":"我到現在我還是沒有辦法理解因為禮拜一是我當主席啦那我說真的現場我本來也是覺得奇怪這個東西能夠播放嘛但是後來黃委員當場有說這個不是啊那如果播放一個不是的他已經在現場說他不是回家才偷偷說他現場說這個不是開庭的錄音了那為什麼"},{"start":983.81,"end":998.538,"text":"為什麼部長剛剛的回覆還一直可以講到偽造文書然後還有人講偽造電子紀錄所以我想這樣啦我非常的期待法務部能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員跟委員報告要不要給我這個所謂那個本來這個我們黃委員的他那時候這個我有整理出來喔"},{"start":1007.082,"end":1032.702,"text":"這個意思是要播放這個要播放給我聽喔什麼叫入貿什麼叫恐嚇喔他是用個案的這部分來講我一直很反對我說不要千萬不要我忘記了最後播完後播完之後才跟我講這是示範帶他有說是針對哪一個案子嗎因為我現在一下忘了我記憶力不太好這個已經就講了朱將軍等等這個我一聽就知道是哪個個案了嘛為什麼"},{"start":1034.043,"end":1047.527,"text":"這個聽起來就是個案了 這個是個案了所以委員你在質詢我 你也說這個不適合在播放嘛部長我有講一件事情喔 部長你不要亂帶風向喔我沒有帶風向喔部長等一下 如果今天黃國昌委員當場是播放證訊的內容的話我一定會制止啊"},{"start":1060.31,"end":1071.839,"text":"但是他那時候已經說 不能這樣好了啦部長我覺得啦 部長我跟你說齁這個是這個錄音的 錄音檔這個來源不明真為莫辯嘛這個真的有嚴重誤導這個視聽那黃委員到後來才講說這是屬於那個那個那個什麼"},{"start":1075.402,"end":1103.655,"text":"市判代 市判代是不是真的再來造假 再來檢驗因為剛剛王逸川委員有告發我們可以再去調查起來做一個鑑定嘛我跟你講 部長我問東你答西我問東你回答西喔部長 這樣好不好因為王逸川委員剛剛有告發我們的黃委員嘛那我就希望趕快拜讀到起訴書到底是涉犯哪一個條文因為我說真的這兩天我想破頭我實在是不知道是涉犯什麼條文啊"},{"start":1104.375,"end":1109.64,"text":"我真的想不出來 然後我剛剛也仔細看了一下立法院的執行法24 等一下 部長 部長我剛剛看了一下立法院執行法24條執行法24條 它有關質詢的提出啊它也沒有說不行這樣啊那所以我一直搞不懂 所以我很希望嚴辦黃國昌委員那我很希望拜讀起訴書的內容"},{"start":1125.273,"end":1151.048,"text":"到底涉犯什麼條文我不要涉犯好不好因為黃委員怎麼會有這個袋子如果說是這種這個袋子只有檢察官法官才能聽得到另外就是一個被捕律師才有去按照刑事法第33條他可以提出來去做一個Copy這也是刑事刑事防禦權你剛剛講那30秒的前提是如果他當天放的是開庭的東西的話才會有你說的這些後面的法律效果"},{"start":1151.488,"end":1161.217,"text":"那我想說 所以我們新聞稿有發表這個是來源不明 真偽 真偽莫辯沒關係啦 部長你這些論述絕對可以剪短影音出去講但是喔 我跟你說啦 部長我永遠在這裡講的一句話就是說話沒關係 你要做聲光效果 那給全國人民看我沒意見"},{"start":1172.267,"end":1195.023,"text":"但是不要忘了我們國家有非常多法律專業的人他們懂我們在講什麼部長你要玩聲光效果那是你的事情你可以接受幾個小時的證訊可以做一個惡意的剪接嗎我想這個檢察官不能夠這樣做我跟你講你在講的東西我還是聽不懂你在講什麼本案跟剪接什麼關係本案跟剪接什麼關係剛剛還有人講是變造"},{"start":1200.507,"end":1215.637,"text":"變照開庭的那個哪裡有變照我搞不清楚當事人已經講了說這個東西不是開庭的嘛那你一定要對號入座說他是哪一個案子然後又要對號入座說這個是開庭錄音的剪接"},{"start":1216.357,"end":1225.063,"text":"然後我就跟你說啦 我現在沒有意見了啦部長 部長好啦 部長我跟你講 我問東尼達西正你在做什麼 我不是看不懂啦我腦子不是那麼不清楚 部長這樣好不好我就說了 我們就按照剛剛王一川委員的告發那就請貴部能夠督導檢察官能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員因為我很想看看這個起訴書到底是涉犯哪個條因為我的腦子一直想不出來"},{"start":1246.738,"end":1250.364,"text":"聽不懂到底這個有哪裡構成犯罪 好不好那謝謝部長 再請部長嚴辦好 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":331,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時）質詢開始前，我先簡單的說明一下今天的題目，因為剛有委員說是危言聳聽。有關於警政署提供青少年刑案嫌疑人的數據，在2024年為什麼我說是4.7萬人次？我想說我不是危言聳聽，因為數據上面就是青少年把它加在一起，簡報上所示橙色的部分是少年，右邊藍色是青年，兩項合計是4.7萬人次，當然我謝謝吳委員的指教。我想說我們這個題目沒有危言聳聽，因為這個數據是警政署統計的。所以我們今天的題目是青少年，不是說少年是4.7萬，我這邊就會議議程……因為剛剛吳委員有問到，我就在這邊簡單說明一下，謝謝。","請法務部部長、警政署署長及副秘。"],["主席：麻煩有請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長以及警政署署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。關於今天少年輔導矯正的議題，為什麼今天有這麼多部長級的人都來？我想是大家都很重視這個議題啦！這個議題其實我覺得現在已經是少子化、高齡化，再來青少年犯罪，這些都是國安的問題。因為青少年將來進入社會之後，他們會不會由於在少年時期受社會的一些影響，造成他們對於價值觀等等的錯誤，會不會導致將來他們成年之後，對社會會有重大影響？所以今天有這麼多部長都有過來，很感謝各位。這幾年我們看到的一個狀況，就是青少年的犯罪比例一直在增加。我們以一個統計數字來看，在12到17歲的少年犯罪人數，在這5年其實是一直往上衝的，它的成長率是增加的。我們今天又看到警政署的報告，再加上我們少子化的問題，發生的件數跟分母整個比起來的話，其實數字是很驚人的增加，我這樣子算了一下，犯罪增加率高達二成。所以我剛剛是說，除了案件數之外，還有一個少子化導致分母是減少的，這樣比較起來，犯罪率是在往上升的，而且青少年最常涉犯的案件大概就是兩個，一個是詐欺，另外一個是妨害秩序。","我從這份報告看到，這幾年很多青少年會被利用去當作車手，我們知道在整個詐欺行為中，車手是最底層的那個行為者，而且是最容易被抓到的，等於是這些人擔負的是詐欺集團裡面最危險的工作，但是也是獲利最低的工作。我記得以前在處理案件的時候，這些人有時候分到的大概只有他們詐騙到金額的可能是1%或2%這麼低，也就是有九成以上的錢其實是被負擔風險不高的這些人給分走，所以這些小朋友，他們做最危險的工作，居然是領最少的錢，而他們這些犯罪紀錄，雖然他們成年之後不會顯現在前科表上，但是其實大家也都知道，從院檢的系統還是看得到他們過往在青少年時期的一些資料，現在少年變成免洗筷。","我最近看到一篇桃園地檢署陳嘉義檢察官投書至全國律師聯合會的一篇文章，其實他就點出目前我們想要走向行政先行的概念之下，可能會產生的一些狀況。我想行政輔導先行在現行的偵查上會有幾個問題，我就引用陳嘉義檢察官文章的內容。第一個，它會造成偵查主體的割裂，現在的犯罪不會是成年人跟未成年人壁壘分明，並不會這樣，通常是混成一團，所以到最後變成成年人的犯罪偵查是由檢察官去處理，但是如果以行政先行的概念，少年犯變成是由少年法庭，變成一個犯罪由兩個不同的指揮系統在指揮。更何況因為法官的職業訓練，他對於偵查的理解性可能沒那麼高，在雙頭馬車之下，可能造成偵查秘密的外洩，還有偵查不同調，甚至他沒有判斷案子全貌的話，可能造成要羈押等等的狀況也比較不容易，但只要有一個人沒有押，可能就會把整個犯罪偵查的東西都流出去。各位都是第一線司法實務人員，在座都是檢察官、法官跟警察，都很了解我剛剛提到的這個問題。","我們現在要去思考在這幾年運作下來，行政先行到底在實務上面運作有沒有發生很大的問題？會不會反而對於犯罪的偵查，我們要一鍋把它端掉、把它處理掉，不要讓犯罪集團繼續存在，變成我們為了保護小朋友，卻使得犯罪集團完全無法再追查下去，就讓它繼續壯大、繼續收新的小朋友進來？我的意思就是，以前的偵查模式會溯源把整個集團瓦解掉，但是現在的狀況要行政先行的話，變成未成年人交給法院，成年人由檢察官，這樣的狀況會變成查緝偵查犯罪團體的時候，你很難向上去溯源，這樣變成小朋友像免洗筷一樣，這批小朋友被抓進去、送輔導了，犯罪團體繼續去吸收新的小朋友進來，反而行政先行沒有解決現在青少年犯罪的問題，讓被害的人越來越多。這是我看了陳嘉義檢察官的文章之後，再加上我自己以前處理案件的概念，我覺得這會有一個小問題，同時也給各位參考，希望大家也能夠思考一下，包括教育部或衛福部也能夠思考一下，會有這個問題。","再來還有一個問題，少輔會的功能還是有限，目前少輔會的組織層級很低，它可能散在各個縣市政府或者是警察機關，而且它是被動的開案，還有一個很重要的點是這次警政署報告有提到的，它缺乏約束力。我特別要感謝警政署署長，因為我覺得這次報告是我看過非常棒的一份報告，我也很希望其他部會能參考一下警政署這次提出來的報告，在看過以後，我真的覺得警政署這份報告非常非常地完整。我今天會提這個專報，其實有一個很重要的點是我剛提到的，我個人覺得青少年犯罪已經是國家安全的問題，因為未來整個社會的問題都會從他年輕時的態度偏差開始，長大之後會影響到社會。尤其是我剛才有提到的，詐欺是現在青少年犯罪中很嚴重的一環，這都會影響到社會。另外，我自己念書的時候，我是念公共衛生領域，那時候我們念到社會流行病學裡面有一個社會致病因子，社會致病因子來源非常多，包括社會給小朋友、家庭給小朋友或教育給小朋友的，累積到最後讓這個人偏差了。為什麼今天來那麼多部會？也是要跟各位報告，從社會流行病學的角度去看，其實各個部會所管轄的東西，對於小朋友的發展，我覺得都有很重要的關聯性。雖然行政院在今年2月的時候，有找史哲政委及陳時中政委辦一個跨部會的會議，希望能改善兒少的環境，但也是蠻特別的啦！不是知道史哲要去當高鐵的董事長，為什麼又突然叫他去領導這個？我覺得行政院用人應該是很早就布局好的，怎麼還會讓他來負責這麼重大的事情？我到現在還是想不通。","我在前面提那麼多，主要就是說，第一個，我想告訴各位，青少年的問題是跨好幾個部會的問題，不是單一個部會，而且從社會流行病學的角度去看，它的影響本來就是跟目前在座各個部長有關。第二個，希望一個月內能夠請司法院、法務部、教育部、衛福部及警政署能夠再送一份報告給我，但是這份報告，我希望大家能夠參考彼此今天提出來的資料，好不好？因為我今天看完各位的資料之後，我發現各個部會所講出來的東西，彼此之間有道理，但是沒有橫向聯繫，所以我剛才會提到，我覺得警政署的資料最完整，麻煩其他的部會能夠參考一下，然後給我一份資料。因為我接下來也想就青少年犯罪的部分，行政先行到底是不是一個解決問題的方式，還是反而製造更多問題，我想從修法的角度去解決這個問題，或是政策上面我能夠提供一些建議。我想解決這部分，才能夠紓解末端成年犯的問題，在我個人覺得這是很重要的。而且我之前在蔡清祥部長的時代，就這部分我也一直跟他提，要怎麼樣去對少年犯的源頭打擊，讓這些犯罪者、黑幫不要進到校園，這也是我目前一直很重視、希望能處理的面向。上個禮拜立法院有到誠正中學參訪考察，我們發現師生比和戒護比其實是有很嚴重的失衡，麻煩法務部長也能夠注意一下誠正中學的部分。","最後我想請教法務部，因為我們剛剛提到的跨部會，就是鄭麗君副院長跟史哲政委、陳時中政委在2月開了跨部會的會議，我想請問一下，到現在過了4個月了，法務部有沒有什麼具體的作為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這一次跨部會的會議，是不是請我們那個……"],["吳委員宗憲：就說明一下，在跨部會的會議之後，你們的作為是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跨部會這部分最主要是成少共犯的分工，因為在少年的查緝犯罪中，我們法務部沒有角色，而且少年事件處理法不准檢察官介入，所以我們現在可以努力的就是少矯學校以及宣導的部分，就預防少年犯罪的方案，我們會跟內政部跟其他部會進行合作。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我就沒有聽到答案啊！部長，法務部是處理成年犯沒有錯，但是我剛剛一直提到，現在是成年犯跟未成年犯沒辦法割裂，他們現在都是包裹在一起，犯罪團體都是這樣，所以法務部不能說未成年跟你們無關啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，當然滿18歲成年的部分，最主要是因為他涉及詐欺，這部分我們會作為重點查緝的項目，並依據兒權法加重求刑。"],["吳委員宗憲：不然這樣啦！因為時間的關係，我也不期待現在能問出東西，但至少在一個月內回復給我的資料裡面，能夠包含2月開完這個會到現在，這四個月裡，請問具體的方案是什麼？至少你要告訴我將來跨部會由誰領軍？哪一個單位執行？執行期程是什麼？怎麼執行？這些東西至少內容要給我。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，這部分我跟委員報告，因為2月之後，剛才我有報告3月14號檢察長有請各地檢署邀請少年法庭來研商；另外，3月21號臺高檢也拜會司法院少家廳來研商相關的議題，4月7號也函請各地檢署邀請少年法庭、法院、司法警察機關來進行研商，5月15號也函復行政院有關少年減案資料的需求項目，我們來研商及解決。詳細的部分，我是不是用書面給委員？"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，就是不要用「研議中」來回答我就好，因為像上次黃國昌委員說的，他最怕的就是聽到「研議」，因為研議等於不做。但是我自己在擔任局長的時候，我自己底下的同仁……我對長官說的「研議」兩個字就是我們已經積極在做，我的「研議」永遠不是說不做的意思，但是到這邊常常研議就是不做。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會遵照委員的……我們會儘速來……"],["吳委員宗憲：最後也是要請教部長，部長昨天有發一個新聞稿嘛！昨天我們辦公室就接到很多民眾打電話來，說檢察官開庭態度不佳這件事情，因為我有看到新聞稿有說，部長說有一再的要求，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這個本來就是有要求，而且開庭態度的問題是列入年度檢查事項。"],["吳委員宗憲：上一次發文要求大家要依據刑事訴訟法第九十八條出以懇切之態度，上一次發文請全國檢察官注意這件事是多久以前的事？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個回去我再提供，這個我們也是列入……"],["吳委員宗憲：因為你新聞稿寫「一再」。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我會再……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長有看過新聞稿嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，你說什麼時候的話，我回去再做……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，因為你一再的……依照中文的理解就是反覆的要求嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，而且這也列入年度業務檢查的項目嘛！這個我們平時都有在督導。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以到底有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會把相關的資料再提供給委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。另外我還要講一個，因為剛剛有很多委員有提出這個質疑，還有我自己也一直質疑，剛剛部長有跟其他委員一來一往在講，甚至還講到偽造文書、偽造電磁紀錄、侵害個資等，當然到現在我還是沒有辦法理解，因為禮拜一是我當主席，我說真的，現場我本來也是覺得奇怪，這個東西能夠播放嗎？但是後來黃委員當場有說這個不是啊！如果播放一個不是的……他已經在現場說，他不是回家才偷偷說，他現場說這個不是開庭的錄音了，為什麼部長剛剛的回復還可以一直講到偽造文書，然後還有人講偽造電磁紀錄、個資？所以我想這樣啦！我非常期待法務部能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，黃委員那時候……我有整理出來，這個是要播放給我聽，什麼叫辱罵？什麼叫恐嚇？他就用個案的這部分來講，我一直很反對，我說不要、千萬不要。"],["吳委員宗憲：他有說，可是我忘記了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我有勸他不要喔！最後播完後……"],["吳委員宗憲：他有說是個案嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：播完之後才跟我講這是示範帶……"],["吳委員宗憲：他有說是針對哪一個案子嗎？因為我現在一下忘了，我記憶力不太好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：他這個帶子裡面放出來的話已經講了朱將軍等等，這個我們一聽就知道是哪個個案了嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：為什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個聽起來就知道是個案了。"],["吳委員宗憲：為什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是個案了。"],["吳委員宗憲：可是……不是啊！沒有，因為……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以委員那時候你在質詢我，你也說這個不適合播放嘛！你也曾經當過檢察官嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，部長，我有講一件事情……"],["鄭部長銘謙：你有當過檢察官，當檢察官可以……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你不要亂帶風向喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有帶風向喔！我沒有帶風向喔！"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我已經講了，部長，等一下，如果今天黃國昌委員是當場播放偵訊內容的話，我一定會制止，但是他那時候已經說……不然這樣好了啦，部長，我覺得啦，部長，我跟你說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們新聞稿已經講得很清楚了嘛！這個錄音的錄音檔來源不明，真偽莫辨嘛！這個真的嚴重誤導視聽，黃委員到後來才講這是屬於示範帶……"],["吳委員宗憲：我不知道，我覺得……"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是示範帶？是不是真的再來造假，後來剪接，我們是不是可以請……提出來……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，這樣好了啦，因為剛剛王義川委員有告發……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們可以請調查局做一個鑑定嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦！部長，你不要再……我跟你講，部長，我問東，你答西啦！不要再講那些……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，我沒有問東答西。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，這樣好不好？因為王義川委員剛剛有告發黃委員了嘛！我就希望趕快拜讀起訴書，到底是涉犯哪個條文？因為我說真的，這兩天我想破頭，我實在是不知道是涉犯什麼條文，我真的想不出來，然後我剛剛也仔細看了一下立法院職權行使法第二十四條……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以那時候我就有提醒這個不要做……有涉及刑法的問題喔！"],["吳委員宗憲：等一下，部長，我剛才看了一下立法院職權行使法第二十四條，有關質詢的提出也沒有說不行這樣，所以我一直搞不懂。我很希望嚴辦黃國昌委員，我很希望拜讀起訴書的內容，到底涉犯什麼條文，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：黃委員怎麼會有這個帶子？正常這種帶子只有檢察官、法官才能聽得到，另外就是辯護律師才能按照刑事訴訟法第三十三條，他可以提出來去copy……"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦，部長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這也是行使防禦權，不能做其他目的外使用。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你剛剛講那30秒的前提是，如果他當天放的是開庭的東西的話，才會有你說的這些後面的法律效果。我想說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這個真偽，我們新聞稿有發，這個來源不明，真偽莫辨嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦，部長，沒關係啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：既然是這樣的話，在國會殿堂已經拿出來了，這是不是……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你這些論述絕對可以剪短影音出去講，但是我跟你說，部長，我在這裡永遠要講的一句話就是，說話沒關係，你要做聲光效果給全國人民看，我沒意見！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有要做聲光效果……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是不要忘了我們國家有非常多法律專業的人，他們懂我們在講什麼。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你要玩聲光效果，那是你的事情。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你當過檢察官，你以檢察官為榮嘛！你接受幾個小時的偵訊可以惡意剪接嗎？我想這個檢察官不能夠這樣被汙衊，你當過檢察官，你應該知道要維護檢察官辦案的空間。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，你講的東西，我還是聽不懂你在講什麼，本案跟剪接什麼關係？"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且這個案子是屬於個案審理中，可以拿出來講嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：本案跟剪接什麼關係？剛剛還有人講是變造開庭的……哪裡有變造？我搞不清楚，當事人已經講了，說這個東西不是開庭的嘛！你一定要對號入座說它是哪一個案子……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有對號入座哦！最後播完後……"],["吳委員宗憲：然後又要對號入座說這個是開庭錄音的剪接，我就跟你說，我現在沒有意見了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是不是剪接？是不是偽造？或者是……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，好啦！部長，我跟你講，我問東，你答西，你在做什麼，我不是看不懂啦！我腦子不是那麼不清楚，部長，這樣好不好？我就說了，我們就按照剛剛王義川委員的告發，那就請貴部能夠督導檢察官嚴辦黃國昌委員，因為我很想看看這個起訴書到底是涉犯哪個條文，因為我的腦子一直想不出來、聽不懂到底這個有哪裡構成犯罪，好不好？謝謝部長，再請部長嚴辦，謝謝部長。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：犯罪就嚴辦，這是我的立場。","下一位請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林月琴","王鴻薇","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","葉元之","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張雅琳","林國成"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、教育部部長、法務部矯正署署長、內政部\n警政署署長、勞動部、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「青少年刑案嫌疑人於2024年創歷年\n新高，達4.7萬餘人次，現行少年輔導、矯正效能，包括校園霸凌處理機制、高關懷學生、安置\n輔導、保護管束、感化教育、職能訓練、更生系統、中介轉銜機制、追蹤輔導、逆境社工等，及\n《少年事件處理法》『行政輔導先行』施行迄今近兩年，相關制度之檢討與策進」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00007"}}}