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{\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 531.446, \"end\": 531.466, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,041 --> 00:00:06,705\n謝謝修保主席,有請副主委\n\n2\n00:00:11,642 --> 00:00:15,824\n范委員好副主委您好時間有限我今天想針對人設的這個領域就是來跟您討論您應該有看到人設人才不斷的流失現在大學文史法證選庭率一據報紙講是受到AI熱潮的影響選庭率只有七成連台大法律系都有缺額\n\n3\n00:00:37,414 --> 00:00:49,564\n這部分請辦公室幫我整理一下近五年來就是科發基金中人設研發的經費佔比越來越少如果110年度是10.09%到114年度只剩7.94%\n\n4\n00:00:56,229 --> 00:01:00,893\n那我不知道為什麼人設研發經費因為我們整體都是提升的嘛總預算從400多億到714億那可是佔比的話人設研發經費我知道它本來就比較少因為就是比較不需要就是高科技尖端昂貴的器材\n\n5\n00:01:14,864 --> 00:01:17,466\n可是占比越來越少我覺得還是個危機喔那跟您分享一下如果我們從教育部來看我們的人設的系所的占比的話結構來講的話我們是OECD最後一名欸\n\n6\n00:01:30,478 --> 00:01:45,571\n所以我們本來這相關的畢業學生就讀的學科結構這部分我過去也有質詢過本來就太低了所以並不是所有的經濟發展國家都不重視人設台灣在人設學系的訓練人才來比人才就比較少了經費又這麼少\n\n7\n00:01:51,696 --> 00:02:03,596\n那我剛剛我知道我們國科會有三個副主委嘛我們主委是電機博士您是也是電機相關的博士對不對\n\n8\n00:02:04,744 --> 00:02:23,212\n然後另外一位陳副主委是資訊也是過去是也是相關的博士然後我們常務副主委是土木博士所以你們三位副主委中是哪一位主管人設的領域的跟委員報告是另外一位那個陳秉宇副主委\n\n9\n00:02:24,271 --> 00:02:30,174\n是陳副主委他今天沒有到對不對是是是但是我想我還是想要問你們這個問題就是我在2023年當時還是科技部的時候我們前部長就承諾說我講的在泰德因為泰德是我們非常重要的一個就是AI的發展台灣的本土\n\n10\n00:02:47,302 --> 00:03:01,639\n前端設計就要納入人文社會思維因為這個部分是我們研究國外其實就希望這樣做humanintheloop你要在過程中設計的部分使用者回饋的部分各方面有\n\n11\n00:03:02,059 --> 00:03:22,856\n可是我兩次的要求你們回應我的東西好像都只是在後端我的三項要求降低資料庫偏見AI決策過程要加入人為社會參與研發人工道德行為者那這幾個部分那國科會這部分泰德還是你們的重要計畫\n\n12\n00:03:23,817 --> 00:03:50,609\n你們到底要如何納入呢可不可以先回應我剛剛講的那個人設經費佔比越來越低從10%降到7%好那個跟委員報告你也知道其實這幾年為了一些比較前瞻科技的發展例如精創例如AI的算力還有為了經營科技其實那部分的經費的比例是大幅度的成長所以以至於相對的人設的東西就好像就變得比例比較少\n\n13\n00:03:51,089 --> 00:04:20,769\n副主委請你暫停喔你剛講的包含像泰德對不對那這些裡面都不需要人設資源嗎我剛講的就是說其他的國家都談到這個HumanintheLoop就是在這個過程中就要有人設的從一開始的研發到各部分喔那如果你都依照過去的比例的話他應該經費是要等比例啊因為你整體國科會的經費是增加嘛\n\n14\n00:04:21,349 --> 00:04:42,058\n那這部分據說為什麼是不增反降而且降的幅度蠻多的從10%到7%等於是少了三分之一我說就百分比啦我跟那個委員報告基本上來講這整個科學產業的發展其實很多地方跟這個人設有關像舉個例子\n\n15\n00:04:44,103 --> 00:05:12,922\n這個科學園區的整個發展要必須要符合人性的部分還有包含他的這個我們講說他的日常的生活還有等一下副主委你這樣讓我更驚訝了科學園區只有日常生活是跟人設相關我不是這個意思我說很多跟人文有關的其實都包含在這些基礎所以就是電機博士也要吃飯這就是人設相關不是不是不是我說他的在文化方面的其實基本上這些我們都有考慮到他參加文化活動這是文化相關\n\n16\n00:05:13,783 --> 00:05:19,387\n副主委那這表示您的訓練中也非常缺乏這一塊絕對不是這樣子狹隘的理解的那我想經費的提升我待會會要求你們應該逐年回到一定的比例不是說要發展\n\n17\n00:05:30,875 --> 00:05:52,072\n然後這方面就沒有那就像我講以AI為例我2023年跟2024年都針對AI的過程中那如何能夠有人設的參與是要從設計前端就要參與不是只有後來再測試使用者回饋的話找一些因為AI大數據涉及到的是語言\n\n18\n00:05:52,773 --> 00:05:54,435\n所以我想他如何校正如何提高精確度都跟我們的設計有關所以這部分\n\n19\n00:06:13,775 --> 00:06:31,704\n沒錯跟委員報告其實這部分需要很多這個linguistic的人那linguistic的人基本上是屬於人文方面的而且是跨領域人才我們在這些資料庫的建置我們是找科證中心裡面有很多人文社會方面的人細節部分我可不可以請國防中心的\n\n20\n00:06:32,486 --> 00:06:45,183\n好科證中心你講是哪一個科證中心就是國研院下面有個科證中心基本上台德一開始所有的資料庫裡面data的整備就是請科證中心在負責好那我現在要講的是你整體的國科會在資源的配置上\n\n21\n00:06:49,409 --> 00:07:15,776\n能不能讓就是說未來十年我們這方面跨領域的人才覺得是被支持的那原本只有單一訓練的人他也會看到這個Humanintheloop的重要性如果你的經費沒有增加不能讓跨領域的人覺得或者原本就是說就是做科技決策相關的人或者原本做AI設計的人他能夠往這方向投入的話那其實大家就不會投入這個領域\n\n22\n00:07:16,856 --> 00:07:32,997\n所以我覺得長期的資料跟我們的決策跟資源的配置我看到國科會出了蠻大的我個人覺得有偏差啦我不能說是錯誤就是說BIOS所以是不是請你們整體就兩件事情\n\n23\n00:07:35,220 --> 00:07:59,202\n這突然當掉了下一頁就是第一個國歌會應該要逐年提高人設研究經費比例不可以從10%降低到7%那第二個AI發展的前端設計就應該要有人設的人才參與好不好那這兩點就是副主委多久之內可以給我一個初步的書面報告呢\n\n24\n00:08:00,802 --> 00:08:29,269\n我們一個月內給委員那我剛剛要講的就是說像我們前面在台德或者是一些精創裡面其實有些也是跟人設有關的只是它通通包在裡面所以呢您剛剛顯示的數據是專門給人設方面的研究可是在我剛剛講那些大包裡面包含淨嶺淨嶺裡面有個很重要的就是我們要有這個社會的轉型那裡面都是一些人文的東西裡面有個沙盒其實比例是非常高的\n\n25\n00:08:29,729 --> 00:08:51,466\n謝謝副主委的更正那因為我實在查不出來你們怎麼計算那你把正確的計算比例給我們辦公室好不好好也是一樣過去五年內因為你有統計你才會關注這件事如果連基本的統計都拿不出來表示你們並不關心這件事情好不好我們非常關心人設方面的很關心喔好那謝謝那一個月內給我相關的報告是謝謝委員好謝謝范雲委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5041\t6705\t謝謝修保主席,有請副主委\n11642\t15824\t范委員好副主委您好時間有限我今天想針對人設的這個領域就是來跟您討論您應該有看到人設人才不斷的流失現在大學文史法證選庭率一據報紙講是受到AI熱潮的影響選庭率只有七成連台大法律系都有缺額\n37414\t49564\t這部分請辦公室幫我整理一下近五年來就是科發基金中人設研發的經費佔比越來越少如果110年度是10.09%到114年度只剩7.94%\n56229\t60893\t那我不知道為什麼人設研發經費因為我們整體都是提升的嘛總預算從400多億到714億那可是佔比的話人設研發經費我知道它本來就比較少因為就是比較不需要就是高科技尖端昂貴的器材\n74864\t77466\t可是占比越來越少我覺得還是個危機喔那跟您分享一下如果我們從教育部來看我們的人設的系所的占比的話結構來講的話我們是OECD最後一名欸\n90478\t105571\t所以我們本來這相關的畢業學生就讀的學科結構這部分我過去也有質詢過本來就太低了所以並不是所有的經濟發展國家都不重視人設台灣在人設學系的訓練人才來比人才就比較少了經費又這麼少\n111696\t123596\t那我剛剛我知道我們國科會有三個副主委嘛我們主委是電機博士您是也是電機相關的博士對不對\n124744\t143212\t然後另外一位陳副主委是資訊也是過去是也是相關的博士然後我們常務副主委是土木博士所以你們三位副主委中是哪一位主管人設的領域的跟委員報告是另外一位那個陳秉宇副主委\n144271\t150174\t是陳副主委他今天沒有到對不對是是是但是我想我還是想要問你們這個問題就是我在2023年當時還是科技部的時候我們前部長就承諾說我講的在泰德因為泰德是我們非常重要的一個就是AI的發展台灣的本土\n167302\t181639\t前端設計就要納入人文社會思維因為這個部分是我們研究國外其實就希望這樣做human in the loop你要在過程中設計的部分使用者回饋的部分各方面有\n182059\t202856\t可是我兩次的要求你們回應我的東西好像都只是在後端我的三項要求降低資料庫偏見AI決策過程要加入人為社會參與研發人工道德行為者那這幾個部分那國科會這部分泰德還是你們的重要計畫\n203817\t230609\t你們到底要如何納入呢可不可以先回應我剛剛講的那個人設經費佔比越來越低從10%降到7%好 那個跟委員報告你也知道其實這幾年為了一些比較前瞻科技的發展例如精創 例如AI的算力還有為了經營科技其實那部分的經費的比例是大幅度的成長所以以至於相對的人設的東西就好像就變得比例比較少\n231089\t260769\t副主委請你暫停喔你剛講的包含像泰德對不對那這些裡面都不需要人設資源嗎我剛講的就是說其他的國家都談到這個Human in the Loop就是在這個過程中就要有人設的從一開始的研發到各部分喔那如果你都依照過去的比例的話他應該經費是要等比例啊因為你整體國科會的經費是增加嘛\n261349\t282058\t那這部分據說為什麼是不增反降而且降的幅度蠻多的從10%到7%等於是少了三分之一我說就百分比啦我跟那個委員報告基本上來講這整個科學產業的發展其實很多地方跟這個人設有關像舉個例子\n284103\t312922\t這個科學園區的整個發展要必須要符合人性的部分還有包含他的這個我們講說他的日常的生活還有等一下 副主委你這樣讓我更驚訝了科學園區只有日常生活是跟人設相關我不是這個意思我說很多跟人文有關的其實都包含在這些基礎所以就是電機博士也要吃飯這就是人設相關不是不是不是我說他的在文化方面的其實基本上這些我們都有考慮到他參加文化活動這是文化相關\n313783\t319387\t副主委那這表示您的訓練中也非常缺乏這一塊絕對不是這樣子狹隘的理解的那我想經費的提升我待會會要求你們應該逐年回到一定的比例不是說要發展\n330875\t352072\t然後這方面就沒有那就像我講以AI為例我2023年跟2024年都針對AI的過程中那如何能夠有人設的參與是要從設計前端就要參與不是只有後來再測試使用者回饋的話找一些因為AI大數據涉及到的是語言\n352773\t354435\t所以我想他如何校正如何提高精確度都跟我們的設計有關所以這部分\n373775\t391704\t沒錯跟委員報告其實這部分需要很多這個linguistic的人那linguistic的人基本上是屬於人文方面的而且是跨領域人才我們在這些資料庫的建置我們是找科證中心裡面有很多人文社會方面的人細節部分我可不可以請國防中心的\n392486\t405183\t好 科證中心你講是哪一個科證中心就是國研院下面有個科證中心基本上台德一開始所有的資料庫裡面data的整備就是請科證中心在負責好 那我現在要講的是你整體的國科會在資源的配置上\n409409\t435776\t能不能讓就是說未來十年我們這方面跨領域的人才覺得是被支持的那原本只有單一訓練的人他也會看到這個Human in the loop的重要性如果你的經費沒有增加不能讓跨領域的人覺得或者原本就是說就是做科技決策相關的人或者原本做AI設計的人他能夠往這方向投入的話那其實大家就不會投入這個領域\n436856\t452997\t所以我覺得長期的資料跟我們的決策跟資源的配置我看到國科會出了蠻大的我個人覺得有偏差啦我不能說是錯誤就是說BIOS所以是不是請你們整體就兩件事情\n455220\t479202\t這突然當掉了 下一頁就是第一個 國歌會應該要逐年提高人設研究經費比例不可以從10%降低到7%那第二個 AI發展的前端設計就應該要有人設的人才參與好不好 那這兩點 就是副主委多久之內可以給我一個初步的書面報告呢\n480802\t509269\t我們一個月內給委員那我剛剛要講的就是說像我們前面在台德或者是一些精創裡面其實有些也是跟人設有關的只是它通通包在裡面所以呢您剛剛顯示的數據是專門給人設方面的研究可是在我剛剛講那些大包裡面包含淨嶺淨嶺裡面有個很重要的就是我們要有這個社會的轉型那裡面都是一些人文的東西裡面有個沙盒其實比例是非常高的\n509729\t531466\t謝謝副主委的更正那因為我實在查不出來你們怎麼計算那你把正確的計算比例給我們辦公室好不好好也是一樣過去五年內因為你有統計你才會關注這件事如果連基本的統計都拿不出來表示你們並不關心這件事情好不好我們非常關心人設方面的很關心喔好那謝謝那一個月內給我相關的報告是謝謝委員好謝謝范雲委員\n","txt":"謝謝修保主席,有請副主委\n范委員好副主委您好時間有限我今天想針對人設的這個領域就是來跟您討論您應該有看到人設人才不斷的流失現在大學文史法證選庭率一據報紙講是受到AI熱潮的影響選庭率只有七成連台大法律系都有缺額\n這部分請辦公室幫我整理一下近五年來就是科發基金中人設研發的經費佔比越來越少如果110年度是10.09%到114年度只剩7.94%\n那我不知道為什麼人設研發經費因為我們整體都是提升的嘛總預算從400多億到714億那可是佔比的話人設研發經費我知道它本來就比較少因為就是比較不需要就是高科技尖端昂貴的器材\n可是占比越來越少我覺得還是個危機喔那跟您分享一下如果我們從教育部來看我們的人設的系所的占比的話結構來講的話我們是OECD最後一名欸\n所以我們本來這相關的畢業學生就讀的學科結構這部分我過去也有質詢過本來就太低了所以並不是所有的經濟發展國家都不重視人設台灣在人設學系的訓練人才來比人才就比較少了經費又這麼少\n那我剛剛我知道我們國科會有三個副主委嘛我們主委是電機博士您是也是電機相關的博士對不對\n然後另外一位陳副主委是資訊也是過去是也是相關的博士然後我們常務副主委是土木博士所以你們三位副主委中是哪一位主管人設的領域的跟委員報告是另外一位那個陳秉宇副主委\n是陳副主委他今天沒有到對不對是是是但是我想我還是想要問你們這個問題就是我在2023年當時還是科技部的時候我們前部長就承諾說我講的在泰德因為泰德是我們非常重要的一個就是AI的發展台灣的本土\n前端設計就要納入人文社會思維因為這個部分是我們研究國外其實就希望這樣做human in the loop你要在過程中設計的部分使用者回饋的部分各方面有\n可是我兩次的要求你們回應我的東西好像都只是在後端我的三項要求降低資料庫偏見AI決策過程要加入人為社會參與研發人工道德行為者那這幾個部分那國科會這部分泰德還是你們的重要計畫\n你們到底要如何納入呢可不可以先回應我剛剛講的那個人設經費佔比越來越低從10%降到7%好 那個跟委員報告你也知道其實這幾年為了一些比較前瞻科技的發展例如精創 例如AI的算力還有為了經營科技其實那部分的經費的比例是大幅度的成長所以以至於相對的人設的東西就好像就變得比例比較少\n副主委請你暫停喔你剛講的包含像泰德對不對那這些裡面都不需要人設資源嗎我剛講的就是說其他的國家都談到這個Human in the Loop就是在這個過程中就要有人設的從一開始的研發到各部分喔那如果你都依照過去的比例的話他應該經費是要等比例啊因為你整體國科會的經費是增加嘛\n那這部分據說為什麼是不增反降而且降的幅度蠻多的從10%到7%等於是少了三分之一我說就百分比啦我跟那個委員報告基本上來講這整個科學產業的發展其實很多地方跟這個人設有關像舉個例子\n這個科學園區的整個發展要必須要符合人性的部分還有包含他的這個我們講說他的日常的生活還有等一下 副主委你這樣讓我更驚訝了科學園區只有日常生活是跟人設相關我不是這個意思我說很多跟人文有關的其實都包含在這些基礎所以就是電機博士也要吃飯這就是人設相關不是不是不是我說他的在文化方面的其實基本上這些我們都有考慮到他參加文化活動這是文化相關\n副主委那這表示您的訓練中也非常缺乏這一塊絕對不是這樣子狹隘的理解的那我想經費的提升我待會會要求你們應該逐年回到一定的比例不是說要發展\n然後這方面就沒有那就像我講以AI為例我2023年跟2024年都針對AI的過程中那如何能夠有人設的參與是要從設計前端就要參與不是只有後來再測試使用者回饋的話找一些因為AI大數據涉及到的是語言\n所以我想他如何校正如何提高精確度都跟我們的設計有關所以這部分\n沒錯跟委員報告其實這部分需要很多這個linguistic的人那linguistic的人基本上是屬於人文方面的而且是跨領域人才我們在這些資料庫的建置我們是找科證中心裡面有很多人文社會方面的人細節部分我可不可以請國防中心的\n好 科證中心你講是哪一個科證中心就是國研院下面有個科證中心基本上台德一開始所有的資料庫裡面data的整備就是請科證中心在負責好 那我現在要講的是你整體的國科會在資源的配置上\n能不能讓就是說未來十年我們這方面跨領域的人才覺得是被支持的那原本只有單一訓練的人他也會看到這個Human in the loop的重要性如果你的經費沒有增加不能讓跨領域的人覺得或者原本就是說就是做科技決策相關的人或者原本做AI設計的人他能夠往這方向投入的話那其實大家就不會投入這個領域\n所以我覺得長期的資料跟我們的決策跟資源的配置我看到國科會出了蠻大的我個人覺得有偏差啦我不能說是錯誤就是說BIOS所以是不是請你們整體就兩件事情\n這突然當掉了 下一頁就是第一個 國歌會應該要逐年提高人設研究經費比例不可以從10%降低到7%那第二個 AI發展的前端設計就應該要有人設的人才參與好不好 那這兩點 就是副主委多久之內可以給我一個初步的書面報告呢\n我們一個月內給委員那我剛剛要講的就是說像我們前面在台德或者是一些精創裡面其實有些也是跟人設有關的只是它通通包在裡面所以呢您剛剛顯示的數據是專門給人設方面的研究可是在我剛剛講那些大包裡面包含淨嶺淨嶺裡面有個很重要的就是我們要有這個社會的轉型那裡面都是一些人文的東西裡面有個沙盒其實比例是非常高的\n謝謝副主委的更正那因為我實在查不出來你們怎麼計算那你把正確的計算比例給我們辦公室好不好好也是一樣過去五年內因為你有統計你才會關注這件事如果連基本的統計都拿不出來表示你們並不關心這件事情好不好我們非常關心人設方面的很關心喔好那謝謝那一個月內給我相關的報告是謝謝委員好謝謝范雲委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.041 --> 00:06.705\n謝謝修保主席,有請副主委\n\n00:11.642 --> 00:15.824\n范委員好副主委您好時間有限我今天想針對人設的這個領域就是來跟您討論您應該有看到人設人才不斷的流失現在大學文史法證選庭率一據報紙講是受到AI熱潮的影響選庭率只有七成連台大法律系都有缺額\n\n00:37.414 --> 00:49.564\n這部分請辦公室幫我整理一下近五年來就是科發基金中人設研發的經費佔比越來越少如果110年度是10.09%到114年度只剩7.94%\n\n00:56.229 --> 01:00.893\n那我不知道為什麼人設研發經費因為我們整體都是提升的嘛總預算從400多億到714億那可是佔比的話人設研發經費我知道它本來就比較少因為就是比較不需要就是高科技尖端昂貴的器材\n\n01:14.864 --> 01:17.466\n可是占比越來越少我覺得還是個危機喔那跟您分享一下如果我們從教育部來看我們的人設的系所的占比的話結構來講的話我們是OECD最後一名欸\n\n01:30.478 --> 01:45.571\n所以我們本來這相關的畢業學生就讀的學科結構這部分我過去也有質詢過本來就太低了所以並不是所有的經濟發展國家都不重視人設台灣在人設學系的訓練人才來比人才就比較少了經費又這麼少\n\n01:51.696 --> 02:03.596\n那我剛剛我知道我們國科會有三個副主委嘛我們主委是電機博士您是也是電機相關的博士對不對\n\n02:04.744 --> 02:23.212\n然後另外一位陳副主委是資訊也是過去是也是相關的博士然後我們常務副主委是土木博士所以你們三位副主委中是哪一位主管人設的領域的跟委員報告是另外一位那個陳秉宇副主委\n\n02:24.271 --> 02:30.174\n是陳副主委他今天沒有到對不對是是是但是我想我還是想要問你們這個問題就是我在2023年當時還是科技部的時候我們前部長就承諾說我講的在泰德因為泰德是我們非常重要的一個就是AI的發展台灣的本土\n\n02:47.302 --> 03:01.639\n前端設計就要納入人文社會思維因為這個部分是我們研究國外其實就希望這樣做humanintheloop你要在過程中設計的部分使用者回饋的部分各方面有\n\n03:02.059 --> 03:22.856\n可是我兩次的要求你們回應我的東西好像都只是在後端我的三項要求降低資料庫偏見AI決策過程要加入人為社會參與研發人工道德行為者那這幾個部分那國科會這部分泰德還是你們的重要計畫\n\n03:23.817 --> 03:50.609\n你們到底要如何納入呢可不可以先回應我剛剛講的那個人設經費佔比越來越低從10%降到7%好那個跟委員報告你也知道其實這幾年為了一些比較前瞻科技的發展例如精創例如AI的算力還有為了經營科技其實那部分的經費的比例是大幅度的成長所以以至於相對的人設的東西就好像就變得比例比較少\n\n03:51.089 --> 04:20.769\n副主委請你暫停喔你剛講的包含像泰德對不對那這些裡面都不需要人設資源嗎我剛講的就是說其他的國家都談到這個HumanintheLoop就是在這個過程中就要有人設的從一開始的研發到各部分喔那如果你都依照過去的比例的話他應該經費是要等比例啊因為你整體國科會的經費是增加嘛\n\n04:21.349 --> 04:42.058\n那這部分據說為什麼是不增反降而且降的幅度蠻多的從10%到7%等於是少了三分之一我說就百分比啦我跟那個委員報告基本上來講這整個科學產業的發展其實很多地方跟這個人設有關像舉個例子\n\n04:44.103 --> 05:12.922\n這個科學園區的整個發展要必須要符合人性的部分還有包含他的這個我們講說他的日常的生活還有等一下副主委你這樣讓我更驚訝了科學園區只有日常生活是跟人設相關我不是這個意思我說很多跟人文有關的其實都包含在這些基礎所以就是電機博士也要吃飯這就是人設相關不是不是不是我說他的在文化方面的其實基本上這些我們都有考慮到他參加文化活動這是文化相關\n\n05:13.783 --> 05:19.387\n副主委那這表示您的訓練中也非常缺乏這一塊絕對不是這樣子狹隘的理解的那我想經費的提升我待會會要求你們應該逐年回到一定的比例不是說要發展\n\n05:30.875 --> 05:52.072\n然後這方面就沒有那就像我講以AI為例我2023年跟2024年都針對AI的過程中那如何能夠有人設的參與是要從設計前端就要參與不是只有後來再測試使用者回饋的話找一些因為AI大數據涉及到的是語言\n\n05:52.773 --> 05:54.435\n所以我想他如何校正如何提高精確度都跟我們的設計有關所以這部分\n\n06:13.775 --> 06:31.704\n沒錯跟委員報告其實這部分需要很多這個linguistic的人那linguistic的人基本上是屬於人文方面的而且是跨領域人才我們在這些資料庫的建置我們是找科證中心裡面有很多人文社會方面的人細節部分我可不可以請國防中心的\n\n06:32.486 --> 06:45.183\n好科證中心你講是哪一個科證中心就是國研院下面有個科證中心基本上台德一開始所有的資料庫裡面data的整備就是請科證中心在負責好那我現在要講的是你整體的國科會在資源的配置上\n\n06:49.409 --> 07:15.776\n能不能讓就是說未來十年我們這方面跨領域的人才覺得是被支持的那原本只有單一訓練的人他也會看到這個Humanintheloop的重要性如果你的經費沒有增加不能讓跨領域的人覺得或者原本就是說就是做科技決策相關的人或者原本做AI設計的人他能夠往這方向投入的話那其實大家就不會投入這個領域\n\n07:16.856 --> 07:32.997\n所以我覺得長期的資料跟我們的決策跟資源的配置我看到國科會出了蠻大的我個人覺得有偏差啦我不能說是錯誤就是說BIOS所以是不是請你們整體就兩件事情\n\n07:35.220 --> 07:59.202\n這突然當掉了下一頁就是第一個國歌會應該要逐年提高人設研究經費比例不可以從10%降低到7%那第二個AI發展的前端設計就應該要有人設的人才參與好不好那這兩點就是副主委多久之內可以給我一個初步的書面報告呢\n\n08:00.802 --> 08:29.269\n我們一個月內給委員那我剛剛要講的就是說像我們前面在台德或者是一些精創裡面其實有些也是跟人設有關的只是它通通包在裡面所以呢您剛剛顯示的數據是專門給人設方面的研究可是在我剛剛講那些大包裡面包含淨嶺淨嶺裡面有個很重要的就是我們要有這個社會的轉型那裡面都是一些人文的東西裡面有個沙盒其實比例是非常高的\n\n08:29.729 --> 08:51.466\n謝謝副主委的更正那因為我實在查不出來你們怎麼計算那你把正確的計算比例給我們辦公室好不好好也是一樣過去五年內因為你有統計你才會關注這件事如果連基本的統計都拿不出來表示你們並不關心這件事情好不好我們非常關心人設方面的很關心喔好那謝謝那一個月內給我相關的報告是謝謝委員好謝謝范雲委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.041,"end":6.705,"text":"謝謝修保主席,有請副主委"},{"start":11.642,"end":15.824,"text":"范委員好副主委您好時間有限我今天想針對人設的這個領域就是來跟您討論您應該有看到人設人才不斷的流失現在大學文史法證選庭率一據報紙講是受到AI熱潮的影響選庭率只有七成連台大法律系都有缺額"},{"start":37.414,"end":49.564,"text":"這部分請辦公室幫我整理一下近五年來就是科發基金中人設研發的經費佔比越來越少如果110年度是10.09%到114年度只剩7.94%"},{"start":56.229,"end":60.893,"text":"那我不知道為什麼人設研發經費因為我們整體都是提升的嘛總預算從400多億到714億那可是佔比的話人設研發經費我知道它本來就比較少因為就是比較不需要就是高科技尖端昂貴的器材"},{"start":74.864,"end":77.466,"text":"可是占比越來越少我覺得還是個危機喔那跟您分享一下如果我們從教育部來看我們的人設的系所的占比的話結構來講的話我們是OECD最後一名欸"},{"start":90.478,"end":105.571,"text":"所以我們本來這相關的畢業學生就讀的學科結構這部分我過去也有質詢過本來就太低了所以並不是所有的經濟發展國家都不重視人設台灣在人設學系的訓練人才來比人才就比較少了經費又這麼少"},{"start":111.696,"end":123.596,"text":"那我剛剛我知道我們國科會有三個副主委嘛我們主委是電機博士您是也是電機相關的博士對不對"},{"start":124.744,"end":143.212,"text":"然後另外一位陳副主委是資訊也是過去是也是相關的博士然後我們常務副主委是土木博士所以你們三位副主委中是哪一位主管人設的領域的跟委員報告是另外一位那個陳秉宇副主委"},{"start":144.271,"end":150.174,"text":"是陳副主委他今天沒有到對不對是是是但是我想我還是想要問你們這個問題就是我在2023年當時還是科技部的時候我們前部長就承諾說我講的在泰德因為泰德是我們非常重要的一個就是AI的發展台灣的本土"},{"start":167.302,"end":181.639,"text":"前端設計就要納入人文社會思維因為這個部分是我們研究國外其實就希望這樣做human in the loop你要在過程中設計的部分使用者回饋的部分各方面有"},{"start":182.059,"end":202.856,"text":"可是我兩次的要求你們回應我的東西好像都只是在後端我的三項要求降低資料庫偏見AI決策過程要加入人為社會參與研發人工道德行為者那這幾個部分那國科會這部分泰德還是你們的重要計畫"},{"start":203.817,"end":230.609,"text":"你們到底要如何納入呢可不可以先回應我剛剛講的那個人設經費佔比越來越低從10%降到7%好 那個跟委員報告你也知道其實這幾年為了一些比較前瞻科技的發展例如精創 例如AI的算力還有為了經營科技其實那部分的經費的比例是大幅度的成長所以以至於相對的人設的東西就好像就變得比例比較少"},{"start":231.089,"end":260.769,"text":"副主委請你暫停喔你剛講的包含像泰德對不對那這些裡面都不需要人設資源嗎我剛講的就是說其他的國家都談到這個Human in the Loop就是在這個過程中就要有人設的從一開始的研發到各部分喔那如果你都依照過去的比例的話他應該經費是要等比例啊因為你整體國科會的經費是增加嘛"},{"start":261.349,"end":282.058,"text":"那這部分據說為什麼是不增反降而且降的幅度蠻多的從10%到7%等於是少了三分之一我說就百分比啦我跟那個委員報告基本上來講這整個科學產業的發展其實很多地方跟這個人設有關像舉個例子"},{"start":284.103,"end":312.922,"text":"這個科學園區的整個發展要必須要符合人性的部分還有包含他的這個我們講說他的日常的生活還有等一下 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loop的重要性如果你的經費沒有增加不能讓跨領域的人覺得或者原本就是說就是做科技決策相關的人或者原本做AI設計的人他能夠往這方向投入的話那其實大家就不會投入這個領域"},{"start":436.856,"end":452.997,"text":"所以我覺得長期的資料跟我們的決策跟資源的配置我看到國科會出了蠻大的我個人覺得有偏差啦我不能說是錯誤就是說BIOS所以是不是請你們整體就兩件事情"},{"start":455.22,"end":479.202,"text":"這突然當掉了 下一頁就是第一個 國歌會應該要逐年提高人設研究經費比例不可以從10%降低到7%那第二個 AI發展的前端設計就應該要有人設的人才參與好不好 那這兩點 就是副主委多久之內可以給我一個初步的書面報告呢"},{"start":480.802,"end":509.269,"text":"我們一個月內給委員那我剛剛要講的就是說像我們前面在台德或者是一些精創裡面其實有些也是跟人設有關的只是它通通包在裡面所以呢您剛剛顯示的數據是專門給人設方面的研究可是在我剛剛講那些大包裡面包含淨嶺淨嶺裡面有個很重要的就是我們要有這個社會的轉型那裡面都是一些人文的東西裡面有個沙盒其實比例是非常高的"},{"start":509.729,"end":531.466,"text":"謝謝副主委的更正那因為我實在查不出來你們怎麼計算那你把正確的計算比例給我們辦公室好不好好也是一樣過去五年內因為你有統計你才會關注這件事如果連基本的統計都拿不出來表示你們並不關心這件事情好不好我們非常關心人設方面的很關心喔好那謝謝那一個月內給我相關的報告是謝謝委員好謝謝范雲委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":505,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時47分）謝謝秀寶主席。有請副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["林副主任委員法正：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：副主委您好。時間有限，我今天想針對人社的領域來跟您討論。你應該有看到人社人才不斷地流失，現在大學文史法政選填率，依據報紙報導是受到AI熱潮的影響，選填率只有七成，連臺大法律系都有缺額。這部分我請辦公室幫我整理一下，近五年來科發基金中，人社研發的經費占比越來越少，如果110年度是10.09%，到114年度只剩7.94%。我不知道為什麼人社研發經費……因為我們整體都是提升的，總預算從四百多億到714億，可是占比的話，人社研發經費本來就比較少，因為比較不需要高科技、尖端昂貴的器材，可是占比越來越少，我覺得還是個危機。","跟您分享一下，從教育部的資料中看來，人社系所占比就結構來講是OECD的最後一名，本來與這相關的畢業學生就讀的學科結構，這部分過去我也有質詢過，本來就太低了。並不是所有的經濟發展國家都不重視人社，臺灣在人社學系的訓練人才來比，人才就比較少了，經費又這麼少。國科會有3個副主委，主委是電機博士，您也是電機相關的博士對不對？另外一位陳副主委是資訊相關的博士，常務副主委是土木博士，你們三位副主委中，哪一位是主管人社領域的？"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員報告，是陳炳宇副主委。"],["范委員雲：是陳副主委。他今天沒有到，對不對？"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["范委員雲：但是我還是想要問你們這個問題，2023年當時還是科技部的時候，前部長就承諾說，我講的是TAIDE，因為TAIDE是臺灣本土非常重要的一個AI發展，在TAIDE前端設計，就要納入人文、社會思維，這個部分是我們研究國外其實就希望這樣做，human 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