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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 669.191, \"end\": 669.351, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"缺\", \"start\": 669.351, \"end\": 670.372, \"score\": 0.613}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 670.372, \"end\": 670.612, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 670.612, \"end\": 671.253, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 671.253, \"end\": 671.433, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 671.433, \"end\": 671.833, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"獨\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 671.833, \"end\": 671.993, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 671.993, \"end\": 672.354, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 672.354, \"end\": 672.514, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 672.514, \"end\": 672.874, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 672.874, \"end\": 673.054, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 673.054, \"end\": 673.675, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"學\", 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00:01:33,589\n又因匱乏但總是我們還是進了一小步那還是進步那剛才您的質詢當中您的對答說這個專業人才外國專業人留下來市城這麼少的原因是因為我們國內沒有雙語教育的環境\n\n6\n00:01:34,309 --> 00:02:02,087\n好那本席就針對國內雙語授教權的公平性跟你外國專業人才延攬及僱用這個條例如何兼顧國內雙語授教權的公平性我講的這個公平性什麼叫做雙語的環境它不是只有學校你們現在只開放這些專業人才的孩子只有到私立實驗學校私立\n\n7\n00:02:03,287 --> 00:02:08,892\n那先稍微再開放一點叫做科學園區內的實驗學校所以科學園區內的是誰管不是教育部管是國科會管雖然它的課程還是會受教育部所管這就是你所謂的只是它的授教你除了這些學校之外我們有沒有雙語環境\n\n8\n00:02:23,985 --> 00:02:47,716\n同才之天我這個所謂的外籍人士住在這個社區當中他要不要跟本國的小孩子接觸啊總是要吧那我們的小孩子有沒有雙語能力啊沒有啊因為我們的公立學校的外籍師資只限於教英文課裡面教英文\n\n9\n00:02:48,456 --> 00:02:56,526\n我們不允許他在英文課之外去教非學科的課程什麼叫非學科要聽好喔不是國語\n\n10\n00:03:00,374 --> 00:03:22,891\n歷史地理不是這個是數科所以我才叫非學科及數科其他的這些外籍的你們現在都用前瞻計畫的預算來支持我們這些外籍師資的聘用可是外籍師資的聘用現在進到了私立學校私立實驗學校或者進到現在的科學園區他們這些老師是可以在\n\n11\n00:03:27,815 --> 00:03:46,965\n數科裡面甚至他要如果大膽一點在一些學科當中去教雙語是可以的可是你現在同樣用國家資源前瞻計畫拼的外籍師資到了我公立學校不好意思他只能教什麼他只能在英語課教英文其他在體育課在美術課在家政課\n\n12\n00:03:52,346 --> 00:04:15,232\n都不可以耶音樂課都不可以教耶所以這些本行那你覺得說你的為什麼你的專業人士的小孩沒有在雙語的環境裡面他根本活不下去啊因為他只限於私立學校全台灣有幾所私立的實驗學校可以教雙語沒幾所耶科學園區的這個實驗學校幾所全台灣六所\n\n13\n00:04:20,174 --> 00:04:41,830\n所以其實大部分公立學校的學生是不具雙語能力的你怎麼讓一個在本國的這個外籍人士的子女只有在哪裡可以受雙語學校內除了學校外之後整個我們跟他同儕之間的小朋友玩在一塊的時候是不具英文能力的\n\n14\n00:04:43,188 --> 00:04:46,389\n所以這重點就是在於我本期要講的是你的開放還不足那我們就來看好這邊呢也針對一些人口結構這都你們講的這個為什麼要有這個法令啊的修改啊因為是國內缺財危機啦以及國際的淨財誘因啊\n\n15\n00:05:01,215 --> 00:05:03,857\n國際競才喔那產業全球佈局啊我們必須因應我們的產業來招攬人才啊那我國人口結構於2020年的時候死亡人數是大於出生人數的2020年也就是在大概這個五年前啦\n\n16\n00:05:17,645 --> 00:05:25,150\n我們的死亡人數大於出生人數再加上少子化高齡化預計2070年這是你們講的也就是現在是2025年45年後我的人口的都會減少到百分還會再減少40%所以呢我們的產業怎麼承受這樣的國際競爭力我們的產業如何在國際高級專業勞動力的引進也就勢在必行了可是現在成效如何不好啊\n\n17\n00:05:43,403 --> 00:05:45,646\n留下來的不高啊就是你的法律的開放根本就是激放觀不足然後誘因匱乏所以呢這個都是你們講的好那這個包括了我們未來的產業的重點就是說我們專業人力的引進是要契合國家發展的政策及國內產業的需求\n\n18\n00:06:04,045 --> 00:06:06,607\n好那針對未來產業的重點應該引領該領域的專業人士你們認為要高科技AI本席認為觀光旅宿會展影視文化產業國際貿易這些人才都需要都是需要這都應該要相對的來引進\n\n19\n00:06:19,778 --> 00:06:38,164\n好那你們對於外籍教育人才其實你們只講兩個第一個放寬什麼放寬他的退休在你們修法的第27條說準用這些外籍人士只要在科學園區內的不好意思你只有倩語明定科學園區內的公立實驗高級中學\n\n20\n00:06:41,345 --> 00:06:57,682\n六所全台灣六所的雙語的老師準用公立學校所以私立的實驗學校的師資是不行的是不能準用的這也是你所謂的專業人才所以呢再來\n\n21\n00:06:59,183 --> 00:07:17,997\n對於你為什麼讓本就優勢教師資源的園區的實驗中學拉大與非實驗中學甚至偏鄉學校的師資差距請藉機教育是翻轉偏鄉弱勢的最佳工具這是本席非常認為非常不公平的都是\n\n22\n00:07:19,137 --> 00:07:41,647\n都是國家資源引進的師資他們的費用都是我國家出的為什麼只有在科學園區內的只有私立實驗學校的可以的老師可以享有這樣的資源只有在這個退休你這個退休不能只限於園區喔私立的外籍實在不行喔我認為不公平\n\n23\n00:07:42,827 --> 00:08:09,959\n好再來你的教學資源應該不分公司力應開放專業人士可以一起專長任教2030年的雙語國家也不過剩5年向下仗跟培養產業儲備人才我們為什麼要推雙語教育就是為了替產業儲備人才我們看奪落2018年7年前的國教署的諮詢會議你們的專家就講了喔他建議說應該要開放高中職以下\n\n24\n00:08:11,380 --> 00:08:31,428\n即使是非雙語的學校你看你們的學者專家這樣的建議高中職以下的外籍師士的朋友不應限定在語言教學就是在英語課教學為了因應高中職以下的英語實驗教學譬如說沉浸式的英語教學或者是專業教育的國際化高中職以下\n\n25\n00:08:32,508 --> 00:08:59,234\n由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目你們的專家學者還正面表列像音樂、藝術、餐飲、城市設計、設計等非學科的專業外籍人士來符合這些人都應該可以讓他們來教專業的科目而不是要求這些人只能教在英語課教英文才符合台灣學校的國際化我也讓\n\n26\n00:09:00,734 --> 00:09:27,461\n這個主委我想教育部很清楚我們聘用的外資有一個條件一定要擁有這個教師證但是不要忽略了這些聘來的外籍老師合格外籍老師全部都是什麼大部分百分之八九十他都有專業學科的能力我是地理的合格的英文老師我是自然的英文老師我是美術的英文老師大有人在占了百分之八九十\n\n27\n00:09:27,941 --> 00:09:31,014\n专门指示我是Englishasteacher的\n\n28\n00:09:32,750 --> 00:09:57,209\n就是說我是純粹教英語教學的老師其實是少部分的這個是你沒有善用你引進外資的優勢那教育資源不分公私立我的本席主張我認為有四個不公平第一個為什麼只偏立私立實驗學校及科學園區的實驗中學\n\n29\n00:09:58,570 --> 00:10:16,619\n公立學校的外籍師資一樣是你公司員引進的為什麼不能開放他去教其他非學科的也就是所謂的數科的課程呢為什麼為什麼只有私立實驗學校的外籍老師可以在英語課以外的課程進行雙語教學而公立學校卻不行\n\n30\n00:10:17,844 --> 00:10:40,703\n那公立學校的外籍老師在英語課之外也只也能教也希望能夠教非學科例如藝術跟體育課這才叫做你善用你的資源啊第二個你說前瞻計畫所聘用的外籍師資僅有在英文課教英文這根本就不前瞻啊你們幹嘛放在前瞻你就放在你們的你們的這個經常門就好了啊\n\n31\n00:10:41,263 --> 00:10:57,770\n把預算編多一點就好根本還放在前瞻預算你們忽略了這些外籍師也有其專業領域可以傳授這個根本就是一種浪費根本就不前瞻沒有突破性只有侷限第三個外籍老師會強國本國老師的工作這一點我覺得這是錯誤的訊息也是假議題\n\n32\n00:11:01,403 --> 00:11:14,216\n主委教育部回答我外籍師資的名額是外加還是還是內涵第二個他會不會占到本國的缺第三個他是獨立教學還是協同教學來說明一下\n\n33\n00:11:16,905 --> 00:11:29,816\n這個謝謝委員喔我能不能先針對國安會能回答的我不要我先針對這一題這一題才是重點教育部這邊會有一些團體跟他說你不能讓我的外籍引進來的外籍師師到這個其他來教其他的課喔因為他會奪走了本國的老師的權益結果這是假議題啊因為第一個外籍師師是外聘的\n\n34\n00:11:43,448 --> 00:11:47,069\n第二個他是外聘他沒有用到勞基法他不可以使用勞基法所以他也不會占到本國老師的缺而且是外加名額因為是聘用第三個他不能單獨教學他要協同教學所以一個課你知道我們花了多大的成本你要做一個英文課是兩個老師一個本國老師一個外國老師在裡面教\n\n35\n00:12:10,636 --> 00:12:27,490\n這樣的成本你竟然還不讓協同教學你不善用他你也讓本國老師跟外國老師一起學習啊所以這是你要回答嗎這一題這個可能要請教育部來教育部回答會不會政告本有國德缺會不會是不是外加名額是不是外加名額請回答\n\n36\n00:12:28,050 --> 00:12:47,114\n是謝謝委員的關切那這個名額部分我們了解是外加但是今天我們出席的是國際司跟人事處沒有國教署的同仁在場因為這個相當的國教署有啊國教署專門委員王華盈那是不是請他王華盈這邊你們寫的啊這個你們給我們經委我們本委員會的\n\n37\n00:12:53,908 --> 00:13:18,613\n出席的名單跟委員報告依照我們的各級學校申請偶爾教室聘任的一個雇用跟管理辦法他其實他的原則數其實在規範的第5條他會應該是受到外國語文總結束的限制所以他的原則雖然說是不是在我們的編制原則裡面但是因為學校總結束的限制他可能會有一些排擠的效用排擠誰\n\n38\n00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:28,288\n就是因為外國語文的結束是固定的那如果說要有外籍教師跟本國教師一起去分攤的話他有一個總結束的限制\n\n39\n00:13:29,062 --> 00:13:48,867\n那是時數的問題啊他有沒有他勞工權益的問題沒有啊第一個外退啊所以這是假議題嘛你自己你的授課時數那個是你們可以調整的啊你要增加他授課時數也可以啊那個都是你行政便利可以處理啦重點是他會不會占掉本國老師的缺不會嘛你講的不會對吧你搖頭了嘛\n\n40\n00:13:51,148 --> 00:14:15,020\n對啊所以你們不要被騙了教育部要堅持你國發會主委你聽清楚了嗎所以今天修法的時候不會佔外籍老師你來教非學科的部分是不會佔到本國老師的缺這是假議題而且是外加而且我們還明定要協同教學本期也主張要協同教學不是本國老師也要學\n\n41\n00:14:16,060 --> 00:14:34,207\n外籍老師也要學習怎麼跟我們融入啊再來第四個你這樣看現在各縣市在高雄我力推這個雙語教學我已經力退快將近十年了有時是EMI教學的學校的招生績效顯著啊家長反應正向且熱烈\n\n42\n00:14:35,307 --> 00:14:59,140\n好所以本席要看主委你要講一下的話教育部要講一下我直接講我這邊講的重點這個具體建議要邁向2030年的雙語國家本席主張高中職以下的外籍老師即使是非雙語學校不應限定在教語言課而且所以呢未來應應高中職以下的英語實驗教學如曾經式的英語教學或專業教育國際化來講\n\n43\n00:15:02,142 --> 00:15:23,730\n那由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目如音樂藝術餐飲城市設計或者設計等非學科講好喔不要給我亂做文章喔說要連英文歷史歷史地理自然都要教英文我不主張這件事情喔那個叫學科我說非學科也就是數科\n\n44\n00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:53,428\n的專業學科呢已符合台灣國際教育法而且有這兩個要求第一個國發會這邊教育部這邊以約聘形式第二個共同備課協同教學所以根本就沒有佔用本國的錢而且我也善用你中共資源所引進的外籍實質然後呢你們我還給你們一個權利跟各部會去協調一下你到底啊如果說真的是公私立學校要聘僱特定領域如非學科美術啦體育啊\n\n45\n00:15:53,908 --> 00:16:10,793\n你們可以來審查讓你們審查你們評估一下要不要去審查那甚至剛才評估的也對喬外申既然你們喬外申都願意讓他做永久居留的這樣的放寬的那評估讓他以英語為通用語或官方語言的喬外申聽好這句話\n\n46\n00:16:12,694 --> 00:16:30,670\n遵守合法取得教師證的條件之下我不破壞教師證的條件那喬外申怎麼樣適度的開放參與國內雙語教學的工作機會你讓他留才啊既然他的母語是譬如說讓他可以上一些學程教學還是不一樣\n\n47\n00:16:31,651 --> 00:16:47,065\n你教一些學生但是不好意思你還是要依現有的制度真的要合法老師你就必須考我們的制度那但是呢為了善用你的能力你有英語跟通用語或官方語言我如何善用它也留住這個外籍生的一個目標再來\n\n48\n00:16:50,968 --> 00:17:17,713\n所以我提供我這邊主張你的修法第4條本條本法條的第4條第4項當中的專業工作當中的第5款修改文字改為公私立高中職以下學校進行雙語實驗教育聘請外資可以依其專長任教語言及語言以外之學科語言以外之學科並協助相關教學及教師研習培訓的工作\n\n49\n00:17:18,473 --> 00:17:29,502\n他也可以參與啊所以我不曉得主委你怎麼看這樣本席的建議這個我們會因為這個這個權者還是在教育部我們會找教育部來來教育部表達一下知不知恥你知道來教育部要回答時候你要知道你如果再不支持我們再繼續好剛才我講的是7年前你們的專家學者會議已經提出來了本席111年\n\n50\n00:17:46,209 --> 00:18:05,092\n也就是現在的四年前我就已經找你們來談這件事情了你們都還有時期的思路喔七年前也講四年前本席在講今天四年後的2025年你再不開放沒有勞工權益的問題我說教育部你支不支持本席這樣的提案呢\n\n51\n00:18:06,516 --> 00:18:22,201\n協議委員建議我們會待會去研議所以是不支持是嗎我們會研議研議是不支持是嗎研議不支持還是研議支持講清楚應該說您的建議我們會放到後續的一個你是因為來的層次太低嗎專委而已所以不敢講部長沒有來不敢講市長沒有來不敢講是研議反對\n\n52\n00:18:28,625 --> 00:18:44,074\n我們是開放的意見我們是開放的意見延逸支持嘛來講清楚你是延逸支持本席的意見還是延逸反對本席的意見我們是開放態度來看這件事開放喔這是你講的莊委好那國發會來因為你還是主管機關啊他說他延逸開放啊\n\n53\n00:18:49,901 --> 00:19:13,964\n所以本席會提修正動議我雖然沒有提要我提修正動議我們這一點還是會尊重教育部啦因為我們不是教育的專業是是是您這個答案我不支持啊我不認同啊如果身為國發會的主委你都知道你的專業人才不能久留是因為他的他沒有在雙語的環境當中讓他孩子受教育\n\n54\n00:19:14,885 --> 00:19:21,134\n這是你的主因所以你既然說你還尊重教育部如果教育部跟你說NO你就不會去講到說你國際攬財的一個盲點在哪裡你要去突破那你主委在做什麼我們會去找教育部討論吧所以你是支持嗎\n\n55\n00:19:30,814 --> 00:19:49,270\n我們會朝這個方向來討論支持本席嗎?支持本席的開放的條件嗎?基本上方向你要延逸反對我也沒意見喔你延逸支持開放本席的這個建議那我就覺得沒關係只要有助於這個攬財我們都會站在這邊那你覺得本席的意見有沒有攬財?\n\n56\n00:19:54,914 --> 00:20:09,246\n這奇怪你要讓我留在這裡這麼久你就不敢說我就是支持你的方向是支持染財我們基本上也會朝這個方向去溝通好謝謝以上好謝謝代發委員我們未來修法的時候可以再仔細討論\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n489\t17026\t來 有請國發會主委跟教育部好 請國發會跟教育部\n19261\t34216\t好 我们这一部外国专业人才延揽及雇佣条例说在本席看了之后我觉得就两句话第二个就是开放不足诱因匮乏如果比照\n35938\t52298\t這個當然我們都會說新加坡是一個完全百分百國際的城市他們在攬財留財甚至他們會是用一個更高層次的用移民的一個角度來做他們國內人才的補充來講\n53579\t66893\t他們在25年前就一個私城計畫私執的私城市的城那其實就是他們的移民的一個法規如果就我現在本國現在提出來的行政院版本外國纜財對照他25年前我還是剛才講的那句話就是又因為這個開放不足\n74780\t93589\t又因匱乏但總是我們還是進了一小步那還是進步那剛才您的質詢當中您的對答說這個專業人才外國專業人留下來市城這麼少的原因是因為我們國內沒有雙語教育的環境\n94309\t122087\t好 那本席就針對國內雙語授教權的公平性跟你外國專業人才延攬及僱用這個條例如何兼顧國內雙語授教權的公平性我講的這個公平性什麼叫做雙語的環境它不是只有學校你們現在只開放這些專業人才的孩子只有到私立實驗學校私立\n123287\t128892\t那先稍微再開放一點叫做科學園區內的實驗學校所以科學園區內的是誰管不是教育部管是國科會管雖然它的課程還是會受教育部所管這就是你所謂的只是它的授教你除了這些學校之外我們有沒有雙語環境\n143985\t167716\t同才之天 我這個所謂的外籍人士住在這個社區當中他要不要跟本國的小孩子接觸啊總是要吧 那我們的小孩子有沒有雙語能力啊沒有啊 因為我們的公立學校的外籍師資只限於教英文課 裡面教英文\n168456\t176526\t我們不允許他在英文課之外去教非學科的課程什麼叫非學科要聽好喔不是國語\n180374\t202891\t歷史 地理不是這個 是數科所以我才叫非學科及數科其他的這些外籍的 你們現在都用前瞻計畫的預算來支持我們這些外籍師資的聘用可是外籍師資的聘用現在進到了私立學校 私立實驗學校或者進到現在的科學園區他們這些老師是可以在\n207815\t226965\t數科裡面甚至他要如果大膽一點在一些學科當中去教雙語是可以的可是你現在同樣用國家資源前瞻計畫拼的外籍師資到了我公立學校不好意思他只能教什麼他只能在英語課教英文其他在體育課在美術課在家政課\n232346\t255232\t都不可以耶 音樂課都不可以教耶所以這些本行 那你覺得說你的為什麼你的專業人士的小孩沒有在雙語的環境裡面他根本活不下去啊因為他只限於私立學校全台灣有幾所私立的實驗學校可以教雙語 沒幾所耶科學園區的這個實驗學校幾所 全台灣六所\n260174\t281830\t所以其實大部分公立學校的學生是不具雙語能力的你怎麼讓一個在本國的這個外籍人士的子女只有在哪裡可以受雙語 學校內除了學校外之後整個我們跟他同儕之間的小朋友玩在一塊的時候是不具英文能力的\n283188\t286389\t所以這重點就是在於我本期要講的是你的開放還不足那我們就來看好這邊呢也針對一些人口結構這都你們講的這個為什麼要有這個法令啊的修改啊因為是國內缺財危機啦以及國際的淨財誘因啊\n301215\t303857\t國際競才喔那產業全球佈局啊我們必須因應我們的產業來招攬人才啊那我國人口結構於2020年的時候死亡人數是大於出生人數的2020年也就是在大概這個五年前啦\n317645\t325150\t我們的死亡人數大於出生人數再加上少子化高齡化預計2070年這是你們講的也就是現在是2025年45年後我的人口的都會減少到百分還會再減少40%所以呢我們的產業怎麼承受這樣的國際競爭力我們的產業如何在國際高級專業勞動力的引進也就勢在必行了可是現在成效如何不好啊\n343403\t345646\t留下來的不高啊就是你的法律的開放根本就是激放觀不足然後誘因匱乏所以呢這個都是你們講的好那這個包括了我們未來的產業的重點就是說我們專業人力的引進是要契合國家發展的政策及國內產業的需求\n364045\t366607\t好 那針對未來產業的重點應該引領該領域的專業人士你們認為要高科技AI本席認為觀光旅宿 會展 影視文化產業 國際貿易這些人才都需要都是需要這都應該要相對的來引進\n379778\t398164\t好 那你們對於外籍教育人才其實你們只講兩個 第一個放寬什麼 放寬他的退休在你們修法的第27條說準用這些外籍人士只要在科學園區內的 不好意思你只有倩語明定科學園區內的公立實驗高級中學\n401345\t417682\t六所 全台灣六所的雙語的老師準用公立學校所以私立的實驗學校的師資是不行的是不能準用的這也是你所謂的專業人才所以呢 再來\n419183\t437997\t對於你為什麼讓本就優勢教師資源的園區的實驗中學拉大與非實驗中學甚至偏鄉學校的師資差距請藉機教育是翻轉偏鄉弱勢的最佳工具這是本席非常認為非常不公平的都是\n439137\t461647\t都是國家資源引進的師資他們的費用都是我國家出的為什麼只有在科學園區內的只有私立實驗學校的可以的老師可以享有這樣的資源只有在這個退休 你這個退休不能只限於園區喔私立的外籍實在不行喔 我認為不公平\n462827\t489959\t好 再來你的教學資源應該不分公司力應開放專業人士可以一起專長任教2030年的雙語國家也不過剩5年向下仗跟培養產業儲備人才我們為什麼要推雙語教育就是為了替產業儲備人才我們看奪落2018年7年前的國教署的諮詢會議你們的專家就講了喔他建議說應該要開放高中職以下\n491380\t511428\t即使是非雙語的學校 你看你們的學者專家這樣的建議高中職以下的外籍師士的朋友不應限定在語言教學 就是在英語課教學為了因應高中職以下的英語實驗教學 譬如說沉浸式的英語教學或者是專業教育的國際化 高中職以下\n512508\t539234\t由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目你們的專家學者還正面表列像音樂、藝術、餐飲、城市設計、設計等非學科的專業外籍人士來符合這些人都應該可以讓他們來教專業的科目而不是要求這些人只能教在英語課教英文才符合台灣學校的國際化我也讓\n540734\t567461\t這個主委我想教育部很清楚我們聘用的外資有一個條件一定要擁有這個教師證但是不要忽略了這些聘來的外籍老師合格外籍老師全部都是什麼大部分百分之八九十他都有專業學科的能力我是地理的合格的英文老師我是自然的英文老師我是美術的英文老師大有人在占了百分之八九十\n567941\t571014\t专门指示我是English as teacher的\n572750\t597209\t就是說我是純粹教英語教學的老師其實是少部分的這個是你沒有善用你引進外資的優勢那教育資源不分公私立 我的本席主張我認為有四個不公平第一個 為什麼只偏立私立實驗學校及科學園區的實驗中學\n598570\t616619\t公立學校的外籍師資一樣是你公司員引進的為什麼不能開放他去教其他非學科的 也就是所謂的數科的課程呢 為什麼為什麼只有私立實驗學校的外籍老師可以在英語課以外的課程進行雙語教學而公立學校卻不行\n617844\t640703\t那公立學校的外籍老師在英語課之外也只也能教也希望能夠教非學科例如藝術跟體育課這才叫做你善用你的資源啊第二個你說前瞻計畫所聘用的外籍師資僅有在英文課教英文這根本就不前瞻啊你們幹嘛放在前瞻你就放在你們的你們的這個經常門就好了啊\n641263\t657770\t把預算編多一點就好 根本還放在前瞻預算你們忽略了這些外籍師也有其專業領域可以傳授 這個根本就是一種浪費根本就不前瞻 沒有突破性 只有侷限第三個 外籍老師會強國本國老師的工作 這一點我覺得這是錯誤的訊息 也是假議題\n661403\t674216\t主委教育部回答我外籍師資的名額是外加還是還是內涵第二個他會不會占到本國的缺第三個他是獨立教學還是協同教學來說明一下\n676905\t689816\t這個 謝謝委員喔 我能不能先針對國安會能回答的我不要 我先針對這一題 這一題才是重點教育部這邊會有一些團體跟他說你不能讓我的外籍 引進來的外籍師師到這個其他 來教其他的課喔因為他會奪走了本國的老師的權益結果這是假議題啊因為第一個外籍師師是外聘的\n703448\t707069\t第二個 他是外聘 他沒有用到勞基法他不可以使用勞基法所以他也不會占到本國老師的缺而且是外加名額 因為是聘用第三個 他不能單獨教學 他要協同教學所以一個課 你知道我們花了多大的成本你要做一個英文課 是兩個老師一個本國老師 一個外國老師在裡面教\n730636\t747490\t這樣的成本你竟然還不讓協同教學你不善用他你也讓本國老師跟外國老師一起學習啊所以這是你要回答嗎這一題這個可能要請教育部來教育部回答會不會政告本有國德缺會不會是不是外加名額是不是外加名額請回答\n748050\t767114\t是 謝謝委員的關切那這個名額部分我們了解是外加但是今天我們出席的是國際司跟人事處沒有國教署的同仁在場因為這個相當的國教署有啊 國教署專門委員王華盈那是不是請他王華盈 這邊你們寫的啊這個你們給我們經委 我們本委員會的\n773908\t798613\t出席的名單跟委員報告依照我們的各級學校申請偶爾教室聘任的一個雇用跟管理辦法他其實他的原則數其實在規範的第5條他會應該是受到外國語文總結束的限制所以他的原則雖然說是不是在我們的編制原則裡面但是因為學校總結束的限制他可能會有一些排擠的效用排擠誰\n800250\t808288\t就是因為外國語文的結束是固定的那如果說要有外籍教師跟本國教師一起去分攤的話他有一個總結束的限制\n809062\t828867\t那是時數的問題啊他有沒有他勞工權益的問題沒有啊第一個外退啊所以這是假議題嘛你自己你的授課時數那個是你們可以調整的啊你要增加他授課時數也可以啊那個都是你行政便利可以處理啦重點是他會不會占掉本國老師的缺不會嘛你講的不會對吧你搖頭了嘛\n831148\t855020\t對啊 所以你們不要被騙了教育部要堅持你國發會主委你聽清楚了嗎所以今天修法的時候不會佔外籍老師你來教非學科的部分是不會佔到本國老師的缺這是假議題而且是外加而且我們還明定要協同教學本期也主張要協同教學不是本國老師也要學\n856060\t874207\t外籍老師也要學習怎麼跟我們融入啊再來第四個你這樣看現在各縣市在高雄我力推這個雙語教學我已經力退快將近十年了有時是EMI教學的學校的招生績效顯著啊家長反應正向且熱烈\n875307\t899140\t好 所以本席要看 主委你要講一下的話教育部要講一下我直接講 我這邊講的重點這個具體建議要邁向2030年的雙語國家本席主張高中職以下的外籍老師即使是非雙語學校不應限定在教語言課而且所以呢 未來應應高中職以下的英語實驗教學如曾經式的英語教學或專業教育國際化來講\n902142\t923730\t那由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目如音樂 藝術 餐飲 城市設計 或者設計等非學科講好喔 不要給我亂做文章喔說要連英文歷史 歷史 地理 自然都要教英文我不主張這件事情喔那個叫學科 我說非學科 也就是數科\n924990\t953428\t的專業學科呢 已符合台灣國際教育法而且有這兩個要求第一個 國發會這邊 教育部這邊以約聘形式第二個 共同備課 協同教學所以根本就沒有佔用本國的錢而且我也善用你中共資源所引進的外籍實質然後呢 你們 我還給你們一個權利跟各部會去協調一下你到底啊 如果說真的是公私立學校要聘僱特定領域如非學科 美術啦 體育啊\n953908\t970793\t你們可以來審查讓你們審查你們評估一下要不要去審查那甚至剛才評估的也對喬外申既然你們喬外申都願意讓他做永久居留的這樣的放寬的那評估讓他以英語為通用語或官方語言的喬外申聽好這句話\n972694\t990670\t遵守合法取得教師證的條件之下我不破壞教師證的條件那喬外申怎麼樣適度的開放參與國內雙語教學的工作機會你讓他留才啊既然他的母語是譬如說讓他可以上一些學程教學還是不一樣\n991651\t1007065\t你教一些學生 但是不好意思 你還是要依現有的制度真的要合法老師 你就必須考我們的制度那但是呢 為了善用你的能力 你有英語跟通用語或官方語言 我如何善用它也留住這個外籍生的一個目標再來\n1010968\t1037713\t所以我提供我這邊主張你的修法第4條本條本法條的第4條第4項當中的專業工作當中的第5款修改文字改為公私立高中職以下學校進行雙語實驗教育聘請外資可以依其專長任教語言及語言以外之學科語言以外之學科並協助相關教學及教師研習培訓的工作\n1038473\t1049502\t他也可以參與啊所以我不曉得主委你怎麼看這樣本席的建議這個我們會因為這個這個權者還是在教育部我們會找教育部來來教育部表達一下知不知恥你知道來教育部要回答時候你要知道你如果再不支持我們再繼續好剛才我講的是7年前你們的專家學者會議已經提出來了本席111年\n1066209\t1085092\t也就是現在的四年前我就已經找你們來談這件事情了你們都還有時期的思路喔七年前也講 四年前本席在講今天四年後的2025年你再不開放沒有勞工權益的問題我說教育部你支不支持本席這樣的提案呢\n1086516\t1102201\t協議委員建議我們會待會去研議所以是不支持是嗎我們會研議研議是不支持是嗎 研議不支持還是研議支持 講清楚應該說您的建議我們會放到後續的一個你是因為來的層次太低嗎 專委而已所以不敢講 部長沒有來不敢講 市長沒有來不敢講是研議反對\n1108625\t1124074\t我們是開放的意見我們是開放的意見延逸支持嘛來講清楚你是延逸支持本席的意見還是延逸反對本席的意見我們是開放態度來看這件事開放喔這是你講的莊委好那國發會來因為你還是主管機關啊他說他延逸開放啊\n1129901\t1153964\t所以本席會提修正動議 我雖然沒有提要我提修正動議我們這一點還是會尊重教育部啦 因為我們不是教育的專業是是是 您這個答案我不支持啊 我不認同啊如果身為國發會的主委 你都知道你的專業人才不能久留是因為他的 他沒有在雙語的環境當中讓他孩子受教育\n1154885\t1161134\t這是你的主因所以你既然說你還尊重教育部如果教育部跟你說NO你就不會去講到說你國際攬財的一個盲點在哪裡你要去突破那你主委在做什麼我們會去找教育部討論吧所以你是支持嗎\n1170814\t1189270\t我們會朝這個方向來討論支持本席嗎?支持本席的開放的條件嗎?基本上方向你要延逸反對我也沒意見喔你延逸支持開放本席的這個建議那我就覺得沒關係只要有助於這個攬財我們都會站在這邊那你覺得本席的意見有沒有攬財?\n1194914\t1209246\t這奇怪 你要讓我留在這裡這麼久你就不敢說我就是支持你的方向是支持染財我們基本上也會朝這個方向去溝通好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝代發委員我們未來修法的時候可以再仔細討論\n","txt":"來 有請國發會主委跟教育部好 請國發會跟教育部\n好 我们这一部外国专业人才延揽及雇佣条例说在本席看了之后我觉得就两句话第二个就是开放不足诱因匮乏如果比照\n這個當然我們都會說新加坡是一個完全百分百國際的城市他們在攬財留財甚至他們會是用一個更高層次的用移民的一個角度來做他們國內人才的補充來講\n他們在25年前就一個私城計畫私執的私城市的城那其實就是他們的移民的一個法規如果就我現在本國現在提出來的行政院版本外國纜財對照他25年前我還是剛才講的那句話就是又因為這個開放不足\n又因匱乏但總是我們還是進了一小步那還是進步那剛才您的質詢當中您的對答說這個專業人才外國專業人留下來市城這麼少的原因是因為我們國內沒有雙語教育的環境\n好 那本席就針對國內雙語授教權的公平性跟你外國專業人才延攬及僱用這個條例如何兼顧國內雙語授教權的公平性我講的這個公平性什麼叫做雙語的環境它不是只有學校你們現在只開放這些專業人才的孩子只有到私立實驗學校私立\n那先稍微再開放一點叫做科學園區內的實驗學校所以科學園區內的是誰管不是教育部管是國科會管雖然它的課程還是會受教育部所管這就是你所謂的只是它的授教你除了這些學校之外我們有沒有雙語環境\n同才之天 我這個所謂的外籍人士住在這個社區當中他要不要跟本國的小孩子接觸啊總是要吧 那我們的小孩子有沒有雙語能力啊沒有啊 因為我們的公立學校的外籍師資只限於教英文課 裡面教英文\n我們不允許他在英文課之外去教非學科的課程什麼叫非學科要聽好喔不是國語\n歷史 地理不是這個 是數科所以我才叫非學科及數科其他的這些外籍的 你們現在都用前瞻計畫的預算來支持我們這些外籍師資的聘用可是外籍師資的聘用現在進到了私立學校 私立實驗學校或者進到現在的科學園區他們這些老師是可以在\n數科裡面甚至他要如果大膽一點在一些學科當中去教雙語是可以的可是你現在同樣用國家資源前瞻計畫拼的外籍師資到了我公立學校不好意思他只能教什麼他只能在英語課教英文其他在體育課在美術課在家政課\n都不可以耶 音樂課都不可以教耶所以這些本行 那你覺得說你的為什麼你的專業人士的小孩沒有在雙語的環境裡面他根本活不下去啊因為他只限於私立學校全台灣有幾所私立的實驗學校可以教雙語 沒幾所耶科學園區的這個實驗學校幾所 全台灣六所\n所以其實大部分公立學校的學生是不具雙語能力的你怎麼讓一個在本國的這個外籍人士的子女只有在哪裡可以受雙語 學校內除了學校外之後整個我們跟他同儕之間的小朋友玩在一塊的時候是不具英文能力的\n所以這重點就是在於我本期要講的是你的開放還不足那我們就來看好這邊呢也針對一些人口結構這都你們講的這個為什麼要有這個法令啊的修改啊因為是國內缺財危機啦以及國際的淨財誘因啊\n國際競才喔那產業全球佈局啊我們必須因應我們的產業來招攬人才啊那我國人口結構於2020年的時候死亡人數是大於出生人數的2020年也就是在大概這個五年前啦\n我們的死亡人數大於出生人數再加上少子化高齡化預計2070年這是你們講的也就是現在是2025年45年後我的人口的都會減少到百分還會再減少40%所以呢我們的產業怎麼承受這樣的國際競爭力我們的產業如何在國際高級專業勞動力的引進也就勢在必行了可是現在成效如何不好啊\n留下來的不高啊就是你的法律的開放根本就是激放觀不足然後誘因匱乏所以呢這個都是你們講的好那這個包括了我們未來的產業的重點就是說我們專業人力的引進是要契合國家發展的政策及國內產業的需求\n好 那針對未來產業的重點應該引領該領域的專業人士你們認為要高科技AI本席認為觀光旅宿 會展 影視文化產業 國際貿易這些人才都需要都是需要這都應該要相對的來引進\n好 那你們對於外籍教育人才其實你們只講兩個 第一個放寬什麼 放寬他的退休在你們修法的第27條說準用這些外籍人士只要在科學園區內的 不好意思你只有倩語明定科學園區內的公立實驗高級中學\n六所 全台灣六所的雙語的老師準用公立學校所以私立的實驗學校的師資是不行的是不能準用的這也是你所謂的專業人才所以呢 再來\n對於你為什麼讓本就優勢教師資源的園區的實驗中學拉大與非實驗中學甚至偏鄉學校的師資差距請藉機教育是翻轉偏鄉弱勢的最佳工具這是本席非常認為非常不公平的都是\n都是國家資源引進的師資他們的費用都是我國家出的為什麼只有在科學園區內的只有私立實驗學校的可以的老師可以享有這樣的資源只有在這個退休 你這個退休不能只限於園區喔私立的外籍實在不行喔 我認為不公平\n好 再來你的教學資源應該不分公司力應開放專業人士可以一起專長任教2030年的雙語國家也不過剩5年向下仗跟培養產業儲備人才我們為什麼要推雙語教育就是為了替產業儲備人才我們看奪落2018年7年前的國教署的諮詢會議你們的專家就講了喔他建議說應該要開放高中職以下\n即使是非雙語的學校 你看你們的學者專家這樣的建議高中職以下的外籍師士的朋友不應限定在語言教學 就是在英語課教學為了因應高中職以下的英語實驗教學 譬如說沉浸式的英語教學或者是專業教育的國際化 高中職以下\n由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目你們的專家學者還正面表列像音樂、藝術、餐飲、城市設計、設計等非學科的專業外籍人士來符合這些人都應該可以讓他們來教專業的科目而不是要求這些人只能教在英語課教英文才符合台灣學校的國際化我也讓\n這個主委我想教育部很清楚我們聘用的外資有一個條件一定要擁有這個教師證但是不要忽略了這些聘來的外籍老師合格外籍老師全部都是什麼大部分百分之八九十他都有專業學科的能力我是地理的合格的英文老師我是自然的英文老師我是美術的英文老師大有人在占了百分之八九十\n专门指示我是English as teacher的\n就是說我是純粹教英語教學的老師其實是少部分的這個是你沒有善用你引進外資的優勢那教育資源不分公私立 我的本席主張我認為有四個不公平第一個 為什麼只偏立私立實驗學校及科學園區的實驗中學\n公立學校的外籍師資一樣是你公司員引進的為什麼不能開放他去教其他非學科的 也就是所謂的數科的課程呢 為什麼為什麼只有私立實驗學校的外籍老師可以在英語課以外的課程進行雙語教學而公立學校卻不行\n那公立學校的外籍老師在英語課之外也只也能教也希望能夠教非學科例如藝術跟體育課這才叫做你善用你的資源啊第二個你說前瞻計畫所聘用的外籍師資僅有在英文課教英文這根本就不前瞻啊你們幹嘛放在前瞻你就放在你們的你們的這個經常門就好了啊\n把預算編多一點就好 根本還放在前瞻預算你們忽略了這些外籍師也有其專業領域可以傳授 這個根本就是一種浪費根本就不前瞻 沒有突破性 只有侷限第三個 外籍老師會強國本國老師的工作 這一點我覺得這是錯誤的訊息 也是假議題\n主委教育部回答我外籍師資的名額是外加還是還是內涵第二個他會不會占到本國的缺第三個他是獨立教學還是協同教學來說明一下\n這個 謝謝委員喔 我能不能先針對國安會能回答的我不要 我先針對這一題 這一題才是重點教育部這邊會有一些團體跟他說你不能讓我的外籍 引進來的外籍師師到這個其他 來教其他的課喔因為他會奪走了本國的老師的權益結果這是假議題啊因為第一個外籍師師是外聘的\n第二個 他是外聘 他沒有用到勞基法他不可以使用勞基法所以他也不會占到本國老師的缺而且是外加名額 因為是聘用第三個 他不能單獨教學 他要協同教學所以一個課 你知道我們花了多大的成本你要做一個英文課 是兩個老師一個本國老師 一個外國老師在裡面教\n這樣的成本你竟然還不讓協同教學你不善用他你也讓本國老師跟外國老師一起學習啊所以這是你要回答嗎這一題這個可能要請教育部來教育部回答會不會政告本有國德缺會不會是不是外加名額是不是外加名額請回答\n是 謝謝委員的關切那這個名額部分我們了解是外加但是今天我們出席的是國際司跟人事處沒有國教署的同仁在場因為這個相當的國教署有啊 國教署專門委員王華盈那是不是請他王華盈 這邊你們寫的啊這個你們給我們經委 我們本委員會的\n出席的名單跟委員報告依照我們的各級學校申請偶爾教室聘任的一個雇用跟管理辦法他其實他的原則數其實在規範的第5條他會應該是受到外國語文總結束的限制所以他的原則雖然說是不是在我們的編制原則裡面但是因為學校總結束的限制他可能會有一些排擠的效用排擠誰\n就是因為外國語文的結束是固定的那如果說要有外籍教師跟本國教師一起去分攤的話他有一個總結束的限制\n那是時數的問題啊他有沒有他勞工權益的問題沒有啊第一個外退啊所以這是假議題嘛你自己你的授課時數那個是你們可以調整的啊你要增加他授課時數也可以啊那個都是你行政便利可以處理啦重點是他會不會占掉本國老師的缺不會嘛你講的不會對吧你搖頭了嘛\n對啊 所以你們不要被騙了教育部要堅持你國發會主委你聽清楚了嗎所以今天修法的時候不會佔外籍老師你來教非學科的部分是不會佔到本國老師的缺這是假議題而且是外加而且我們還明定要協同教學本期也主張要協同教學不是本國老師也要學\n外籍老師也要學習怎麼跟我們融入啊再來第四個你這樣看現在各縣市在高雄我力推這個雙語教學我已經力退快將近十年了有時是EMI教學的學校的招生績效顯著啊家長反應正向且熱烈\n好 所以本席要看 主委你要講一下的話教育部要講一下我直接講 我這邊講的重點這個具體建議要邁向2030年的雙語國家本席主張高中職以下的外籍老師即使是非雙語學校不應限定在教語言課而且所以呢 未來應應高中職以下的英語實驗教學如曾經式的英語教學或專業教育國際化來講\n那由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目如音樂 藝術 餐飲 城市設計 或者設計等非學科講好喔 不要給我亂做文章喔說要連英文歷史 歷史 地理 自然都要教英文我不主張這件事情喔那個叫學科 我說非學科 也就是數科\n的專業學科呢 已符合台灣國際教育法而且有這兩個要求第一個 國發會這邊 教育部這邊以約聘形式第二個 共同備課 協同教學所以根本就沒有佔用本國的錢而且我也善用你中共資源所引進的外籍實質然後呢 你們 我還給你們一個權利跟各部會去協調一下你到底啊 如果說真的是公私立學校要聘僱特定領域如非學科 美術啦 體育啊\n你們可以來審查讓你們審查你們評估一下要不要去審查那甚至剛才評估的也對喬外申既然你們喬外申都願意讓他做永久居留的這樣的放寬的那評估讓他以英語為通用語或官方語言的喬外申聽好這句話\n遵守合法取得教師證的條件之下我不破壞教師證的條件那喬外申怎麼樣適度的開放參與國內雙語教學的工作機會你讓他留才啊既然他的母語是譬如說讓他可以上一些學程教學還是不一樣\n你教一些學生 但是不好意思 你還是要依現有的制度真的要合法老師 你就必須考我們的制度那但是呢 為了善用你的能力 你有英語跟通用語或官方語言 我如何善用它也留住這個外籍生的一個目標再來\n所以我提供我這邊主張你的修法第4條本條本法條的第4條第4項當中的專業工作當中的第5款修改文字改為公私立高中職以下學校進行雙語實驗教育聘請外資可以依其專長任教語言及語言以外之學科語言以外之學科並協助相關教學及教師研習培訓的工作\n他也可以參與啊所以我不曉得主委你怎麼看這樣本席的建議這個我們會因為這個這個權者還是在教育部我們會找教育部來來教育部表達一下知不知恥你知道來教育部要回答時候你要知道你如果再不支持我們再繼續好剛才我講的是7年前你們的專家學者會議已經提出來了本席111年\n也就是現在的四年前我就已經找你們來談這件事情了你們都還有時期的思路喔七年前也講 四年前本席在講今天四年後的2025年你再不開放沒有勞工權益的問題我說教育部你支不支持本席這樣的提案呢\n協議委員建議我們會待會去研議所以是不支持是嗎我們會研議研議是不支持是嗎 研議不支持還是研議支持 講清楚應該說您的建議我們會放到後續的一個你是因為來的層次太低嗎 專委而已所以不敢講 部長沒有來不敢講 市長沒有來不敢講是研議反對\n我們是開放的意見我們是開放的意見延逸支持嘛來講清楚你是延逸支持本席的意見還是延逸反對本席的意見我們是開放態度來看這件事開放喔這是你講的莊委好那國發會來因為你還是主管機關啊他說他延逸開放啊\n所以本席會提修正動議 我雖然沒有提要我提修正動議我們這一點還是會尊重教育部啦 因為我們不是教育的專業是是是 您這個答案我不支持啊 我不認同啊如果身為國發會的主委 你都知道你的專業人才不能久留是因為他的 他沒有在雙語的環境當中讓他孩子受教育\n這是你的主因所以你既然說你還尊重教育部如果教育部跟你說NO你就不會去講到說你國際攬財的一個盲點在哪裡你要去突破那你主委在做什麼我們會去找教育部討論吧所以你是支持嗎\n我們會朝這個方向來討論支持本席嗎?支持本席的開放的條件嗎?基本上方向你要延逸反對我也沒意見喔你延逸支持開放本席的這個建議那我就覺得沒關係只要有助於這個攬財我們都會站在這邊那你覺得本席的意見有沒有攬財?\n這奇怪 你要讓我留在這裡這麼久你就不敢說我就是支持你的方向是支持染財我們基本上也會朝這個方向去溝通好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝代發委員我們未來修法的時候可以再仔細討論\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.489 --> 00:17.026\n來有請國發會主委跟教育部好請國發會跟教育部\n\n00:19.261 --> 00:34.216\n好我们这一部外国专业人才延揽及雇佣条例说在本席看了之后我觉得就两句话第二个就是开放不足诱因匮乏如果比照\n\n00:35.938 --> 00:52.298\n這個當然我們都會說新加坡是一個完全百分百國際的城市他們在攬財留財甚至他們會是用一個更高層次的用移民的一個角度來做他們國內人才的補充來講\n\n00:53.579 --> 01:06.893\n他們在25年前就一個私城計畫私執的私城市的城那其實就是他們的移民的一個法規如果就我現在本國現在提出來的行政院版本外國纜財對照他25年前我還是剛才講的那句話就是又因為這個開放不足\n\n01:14.780 --> 01:33.589\n又因匱乏但總是我們還是進了一小步那還是進步那剛才您的質詢當中您的對答說這個專業人才外國專業人留下來市城這麼少的原因是因為我們國內沒有雙語教育的環境\n\n01:34.309 --> 02:02.087\n好那本席就針對國內雙語授教權的公平性跟你外國專業人才延攬及僱用這個條例如何兼顧國內雙語授教權的公平性我講的這個公平性什麼叫做雙語的環境它不是只有學校你們現在只開放這些專業人才的孩子只有到私立實驗學校私立\n\n02:03.287 --> 02:08.892\n那先稍微再開放一點叫做科學園區內的實驗學校所以科學園區內的是誰管不是教育部管是國科會管雖然它的課程還是會受教育部所管這就是你所謂的只是它的授教你除了這些學校之外我們有沒有雙語環境\n\n02:23.985 --> 02:47.716\n同才之天我這個所謂的外籍人士住在這個社區當中他要不要跟本國的小孩子接觸啊總是要吧那我們的小孩子有沒有雙語能力啊沒有啊因為我們的公立學校的外籍師資只限於教英文課裡面教英文\n\n02:48.456 --> 02:56.526\n我們不允許他在英文課之外去教非學科的課程什麼叫非學科要聽好喔不是國語\n\n03:00.374 --> 03:22.891\n歷史地理不是這個是數科所以我才叫非學科及數科其他的這些外籍的你們現在都用前瞻計畫的預算來支持我們這些外籍師資的聘用可是外籍師資的聘用現在進到了私立學校私立實驗學校或者進到現在的科學園區他們這些老師是可以在\n\n03:27.815 --> 03:46.965\n數科裡面甚至他要如果大膽一點在一些學科當中去教雙語是可以的可是你現在同樣用國家資源前瞻計畫拼的外籍師資到了我公立學校不好意思他只能教什麼他只能在英語課教英文其他在體育課在美術課在家政課\n\n03:52.346 --> 04:15.232\n都不可以耶音樂課都不可以教耶所以這些本行那你覺得說你的為什麼你的專業人士的小孩沒有在雙語的環境裡面他根本活不下去啊因為他只限於私立學校全台灣有幾所私立的實驗學校可以教雙語沒幾所耶科學園區的這個實驗學校幾所全台灣六所\n\n04:20.174 --> 04:41.830\n所以其實大部分公立學校的學生是不具雙語能力的你怎麼讓一個在本國的這個外籍人士的子女只有在哪裡可以受雙語學校內除了學校外之後整個我們跟他同儕之間的小朋友玩在一塊的時候是不具英文能力的\n\n04:43.188 --> 04:46.389\n所以這重點就是在於我本期要講的是你的開放還不足那我們就來看好這邊呢也針對一些人口結構這都你們講的這個為什麼要有這個法令啊的修改啊因為是國內缺財危機啦以及國際的淨財誘因啊\n\n05:01.215 --> 05:03.857\n國際競才喔那產業全球佈局啊我們必須因應我們的產業來招攬人才啊那我國人口結構於2020年的時候死亡人數是大於出生人數的2020年也就是在大概這個五年前啦\n\n05:17.645 --> 05:25.150\n我們的死亡人數大於出生人數再加上少子化高齡化預計2070年這是你們講的也就是現在是2025年45年後我的人口的都會減少到百分還會再減少40%所以呢我們的產業怎麼承受這樣的國際競爭力我們的產業如何在國際高級專業勞動力的引進也就勢在必行了可是現在成效如何不好啊\n\n05:43.403 --> 05:45.646\n留下來的不高啊就是你的法律的開放根本就是激放觀不足然後誘因匱乏所以呢這個都是你們講的好那這個包括了我們未來的產業的重點就是說我們專業人力的引進是要契合國家發展的政策及國內產業的需求\n\n06:04.045 --> 06:06.607\n好那針對未來產業的重點應該引領該領域的專業人士你們認為要高科技AI本席認為觀光旅宿會展影視文化產業國際貿易這些人才都需要都是需要這都應該要相對的來引進\n\n06:19.778 --> 06:38.164\n好那你們對於外籍教育人才其實你們只講兩個第一個放寬什麼放寬他的退休在你們修法的第27條說準用這些外籍人士只要在科學園區內的不好意思你只有倩語明定科學園區內的公立實驗高級中學\n\n06:41.345 --> 06:57.682\n六所全台灣六所的雙語的老師準用公立學校所以私立的實驗學校的師資是不行的是不能準用的這也是你所謂的專業人才所以呢再來\n\n06:59.183 --> 07:17.997\n對於你為什麼讓本就優勢教師資源的園區的實驗中學拉大與非實驗中學甚至偏鄉學校的師資差距請藉機教育是翻轉偏鄉弱勢的最佳工具這是本席非常認為非常不公平的都是\n\n07:19.137 --> 07:41.647\n都是國家資源引進的師資他們的費用都是我國家出的為什麼只有在科學園區內的只有私立實驗學校的可以的老師可以享有這樣的資源只有在這個退休你這個退休不能只限於園區喔私立的外籍實在不行喔我認為不公平\n\n07:42.827 --> 08:09.959\n好再來你的教學資源應該不分公司力應開放專業人士可以一起專長任教2030年的雙語國家也不過剩5年向下仗跟培養產業儲備人才我們為什麼要推雙語教育就是為了替產業儲備人才我們看奪落2018年7年前的國教署的諮詢會議你們的專家就講了喔他建議說應該要開放高中職以下\n\n08:11.380 --> 08:31.428\n即使是非雙語的學校你看你們的學者專家這樣的建議高中職以下的外籍師士的朋友不應限定在語言教學就是在英語課教學為了因應高中職以下的英語實驗教學譬如說沉浸式的英語教學或者是專業教育的國際化高中職以下\n\n08:32.508 --> 08:59.234\n由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目你們的專家學者還正面表列像音樂、藝術、餐飲、城市設計、設計等非學科的專業外籍人士來符合這些人都應該可以讓他們來教專業的科目而不是要求這些人只能教在英語課教英文才符合台灣學校的國際化我也讓\n\n09:00.734 --> 09:27.461\n這個主委我想教育部很清楚我們聘用的外資有一個條件一定要擁有這個教師證但是不要忽略了這些聘來的外籍老師合格外籍老師全部都是什麼大部分百分之八九十他都有專業學科的能力我是地理的合格的英文老師我是自然的英文老師我是美術的英文老師大有人在占了百分之八九十\n\n09:27.941 --> 09:31.014\n专门指示我是Englishasteacher的\n\n09:32.750 --> 09:57.209\n就是說我是純粹教英語教學的老師其實是少部分的這個是你沒有善用你引進外資的優勢那教育資源不分公私立我的本席主張我認為有四個不公平第一個為什麼只偏立私立實驗學校及科學園區的實驗中學\n\n09:58.570 --> 10:16.619\n公立學校的外籍師資一樣是你公司員引進的為什麼不能開放他去教其他非學科的也就是所謂的數科的課程呢為什麼為什麼只有私立實驗學校的外籍老師可以在英語課以外的課程進行雙語教學而公立學校卻不行\n\n10:17.844 --> 10:40.703\n那公立學校的外籍老師在英語課之外也只也能教也希望能夠教非學科例如藝術跟體育課這才叫做你善用你的資源啊第二個你說前瞻計畫所聘用的外籍師資僅有在英文課教英文這根本就不前瞻啊你們幹嘛放在前瞻你就放在你們的你們的這個經常門就好了啊\n\n10:41.263 --> 10:57.770\n把預算編多一點就好根本還放在前瞻預算你們忽略了這些外籍師也有其專業領域可以傳授這個根本就是一種浪費根本就不前瞻沒有突破性只有侷限第三個外籍老師會強國本國老師的工作這一點我覺得這是錯誤的訊息也是假議題\n\n11:01.403 --> 11:14.216\n主委教育部回答我外籍師資的名額是外加還是還是內涵第二個他會不會占到本國的缺第三個他是獨立教學還是協同教學來說明一下\n\n11:16.905 --> 11:29.816\n這個謝謝委員喔我能不能先針對國安會能回答的我不要我先針對這一題這一題才是重點教育部這邊會有一些團體跟他說你不能讓我的外籍引進來的外籍師師到這個其他來教其他的課喔因為他會奪走了本國的老師的權益結果這是假議題啊因為第一個外籍師師是外聘的\n\n11:43.448 --> 11:47.069\n第二個他是外聘他沒有用到勞基法他不可以使用勞基法所以他也不會占到本國老師的缺而且是外加名額因為是聘用第三個他不能單獨教學他要協同教學所以一個課你知道我們花了多大的成本你要做一個英文課是兩個老師一個本國老師一個外國老師在裡面教\n\n12:10.636 --> 12:27.490\n這樣的成本你竟然還不讓協同教學你不善用他你也讓本國老師跟外國老師一起學習啊所以這是你要回答嗎這一題這個可能要請教育部來教育部回答會不會政告本有國德缺會不會是不是外加名額是不是外加名額請回答\n\n12:28.050 --> 12:47.114\n是謝謝委員的關切那這個名額部分我們了解是外加但是今天我們出席的是國際司跟人事處沒有國教署的同仁在場因為這個相當的國教署有啊國教署專門委員王華盈那是不是請他王華盈這邊你們寫的啊這個你們給我們經委我們本委員會的\n\n12:53.908 --> 13:18.613\n出席的名單跟委員報告依照我們的各級學校申請偶爾教室聘任的一個雇用跟管理辦法他其實他的原則數其實在規範的第5條他會應該是受到外國語文總結束的限制所以他的原則雖然說是不是在我們的編制原則裡面但是因為學校總結束的限制他可能會有一些排擠的效用排擠誰\n\n13:20.250 --> 13:28.288\n就是因為外國語文的結束是固定的那如果說要有外籍教師跟本國教師一起去分攤的話他有一個總結束的限制\n\n13:29.062 --> 13:48.867\n那是時數的問題啊他有沒有他勞工權益的問題沒有啊第一個外退啊所以這是假議題嘛你自己你的授課時數那個是你們可以調整的啊你要增加他授課時數也可以啊那個都是你行政便利可以處理啦重點是他會不會占掉本國老師的缺不會嘛你講的不會對吧你搖頭了嘛\n\n13:51.148 --> 14:15.020\n對啊所以你們不要被騙了教育部要堅持你國發會主委你聽清楚了嗎所以今天修法的時候不會佔外籍老師你來教非學科的部分是不會佔到本國老師的缺這是假議題而且是外加而且我們還明定要協同教學本期也主張要協同教學不是本國老師也要學\n\n14:16.060 --> 14:34.207\n外籍老師也要學習怎麼跟我們融入啊再來第四個你這樣看現在各縣市在高雄我力推這個雙語教學我已經力退快將近十年了有時是EMI教學的學校的招生績效顯著啊家長反應正向且熱烈\n\n14:35.307 --> 14:59.140\n好所以本席要看主委你要講一下的話教育部要講一下我直接講我這邊講的重點這個具體建議要邁向2030年的雙語國家本席主張高中職以下的外籍老師即使是非雙語學校不應限定在教語言課而且所以呢未來應應高中職以下的英語實驗教學如曾經式的英語教學或專業教育國際化來講\n\n15:02.142 --> 15:23.730\n那由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目如音樂藝術餐飲城市設計或者設計等非學科講好喔不要給我亂做文章喔說要連英文歷史歷史地理自然都要教英文我不主張這件事情喔那個叫學科我說非學科也就是數科\n\n15:24.990 --> 15:53.428\n的專業學科呢已符合台灣國際教育法而且有這兩個要求第一個國發會這邊教育部這邊以約聘形式第二個共同備課協同教學所以根本就沒有佔用本國的錢而且我也善用你中共資源所引進的外籍實質然後呢你們我還給你們一個權利跟各部會去協調一下你到底啊如果說真的是公私立學校要聘僱特定領域如非學科美術啦體育啊\n\n15:53.908 --> 16:10.793\n你們可以來審查讓你們審查你們評估一下要不要去審查那甚至剛才評估的也對喬外申既然你們喬外申都願意讓他做永久居留的這樣的放寬的那評估讓他以英語為通用語或官方語言的喬外申聽好這句話\n\n16:12.694 --> 16:30.670\n遵守合法取得教師證的條件之下我不破壞教師證的條件那喬外申怎麼樣適度的開放參與國內雙語教學的工作機會你讓他留才啊既然他的母語是譬如說讓他可以上一些學程教學還是不一樣\n\n16:31.651 --> 16:47.065\n你教一些學生但是不好意思你還是要依現有的制度真的要合法老師你就必須考我們的制度那但是呢為了善用你的能力你有英語跟通用語或官方語言我如何善用它也留住這個外籍生的一個目標再來\n\n16:50.968 --> 17:17.713\n所以我提供我這邊主張你的修法第4條本條本法條的第4條第4項當中的專業工作當中的第5款修改文字改為公私立高中職以下學校進行雙語實驗教育聘請外資可以依其專長任教語言及語言以外之學科語言以外之學科並協助相關教學及教師研習培訓的工作\n\n17:18.473 --> 17:29.502\n他也可以參與啊所以我不曉得主委你怎麼看這樣本席的建議這個我們會因為這個這個權者還是在教育部我們會找教育部來來教育部表達一下知不知恥你知道來教育部要回答時候你要知道你如果再不支持我們再繼續好剛才我講的是7年前你們的專家學者會議已經提出來了本席111年\n\n17:46.209 --> 18:05.092\n也就是現在的四年前我就已經找你們來談這件事情了你們都還有時期的思路喔七年前也講四年前本席在講今天四年後的2025年你再不開放沒有勞工權益的問題我說教育部你支不支持本席這樣的提案呢\n\n18:06.516 --> 18:22.201\n協議委員建議我們會待會去研議所以是不支持是嗎我們會研議研議是不支持是嗎研議不支持還是研議支持講清楚應該說您的建議我們會放到後續的一個你是因為來的層次太低嗎專委而已所以不敢講部長沒有來不敢講市長沒有來不敢講是研議反對\n\n18:28.625 --> 18:44.074\n我們是開放的意見我們是開放的意見延逸支持嘛來講清楚你是延逸支持本席的意見還是延逸反對本席的意見我們是開放態度來看這件事開放喔這是你講的莊委好那國發會來因為你還是主管機關啊他說他延逸開放啊\n\n18:49.901 --> 19:13.964\n所以本席會提修正動議我雖然沒有提要我提修正動議我們這一點還是會尊重教育部啦因為我們不是教育的專業是是是您這個答案我不支持啊我不認同啊如果身為國發會的主委你都知道你的專業人才不能久留是因為他的他沒有在雙語的環境當中讓他孩子受教育\n\n19:14.885 --> 19:21.134\n這是你的主因所以你既然說你還尊重教育部如果教育部跟你說NO你就不會去講到說你國際攬財的一個盲點在哪裡你要去突破那你主委在做什麼我們會去找教育部討論吧所以你是支持嗎\n\n19:30.814 --> 19:49.270\n我們會朝這個方向來討論支持本席嗎?支持本席的開放的條件嗎?基本上方向你要延逸反對我也沒意見喔你延逸支持開放本席的這個建議那我就覺得沒關係只要有助於這個攬財我們都會站在這邊那你覺得本席的意見有沒有攬財?\n\n19:54.914 --> 20:09.246\n這奇怪你要讓我留在這裡這麼久你就不敢說我就是支持你的方向是支持染財我們基本上也會朝這個方向去溝通好謝謝以上好謝謝代發委員我們未來修法的時候可以再仔細討論\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.489,"end":17.026,"text":"來 有請國發會主委跟教育部好 請國發會跟教育部"},{"start":19.261,"end":34.216,"text":"好 我们这一部外国专业人才延揽及雇佣条例说在本席看了之后我觉得就两句话第二个就是开放不足诱因匮乏如果比照"},{"start":35.938,"end":52.298,"text":"這個當然我們都會說新加坡是一個完全百分百國際的城市他們在攬財留財甚至他們會是用一個更高層次的用移民的一個角度來做他們國內人才的補充來講"},{"start":53.579,"end":66.893,"text":"他們在25年前就一個私城計畫私執的私城市的城那其實就是他們的移民的一個法規如果就我現在本國現在提出來的行政院版本外國纜財對照他25年前我還是剛才講的那句話就是又因為這個開放不足"},{"start":74.78,"end":93.589,"text":"又因匱乏但總是我們還是進了一小步那還是進步那剛才您的質詢當中您的對答說這個專業人才外國專業人留下來市城這麼少的原因是因為我們國內沒有雙語教育的環境"},{"start":94.309,"end":122.087,"text":"好 那本席就針對國內雙語授教權的公平性跟你外國專業人才延攬及僱用這個條例如何兼顧國內雙語授教權的公平性我講的這個公平性什麼叫做雙語的環境它不是只有學校你們現在只開放這些專業人才的孩子只有到私立實驗學校私立"},{"start":123.287,"end":128.892,"text":"那先稍微再開放一點叫做科學園區內的實驗學校所以科學園區內的是誰管不是教育部管是國科會管雖然它的課程還是會受教育部所管這就是你所謂的只是它的授教你除了這些學校之外我們有沒有雙語環境"},{"start":143.985,"end":167.716,"text":"同才之天 我這個所謂的外籍人士住在這個社區當中他要不要跟本國的小孩子接觸啊總是要吧 那我們的小孩子有沒有雙語能力啊沒有啊 因為我們的公立學校的外籍師資只限於教英文課 裡面教英文"},{"start":168.456,"end":176.526,"text":"我們不允許他在英文課之外去教非學科的課程什麼叫非學科要聽好喔不是國語"},{"start":180.374,"end":202.891,"text":"歷史 地理不是這個 是數科所以我才叫非學科及數科其他的這些外籍的 你們現在都用前瞻計畫的預算來支持我們這些外籍師資的聘用可是外籍師資的聘用現在進到了私立學校 私立實驗學校或者進到現在的科學園區他們這些老師是可以在"},{"start":207.815,"end":226.965,"text":"數科裡面甚至他要如果大膽一點在一些學科當中去教雙語是可以的可是你現在同樣用國家資源前瞻計畫拼的外籍師資到了我公立學校不好意思他只能教什麼他只能在英語課教英文其他在體育課在美術課在家政課"},{"start":232.346,"end":255.232,"text":"都不可以耶 音樂課都不可以教耶所以這些本行 那你覺得說你的為什麼你的專業人士的小孩沒有在雙語的環境裡面他根本活不下去啊因為他只限於私立學校全台灣有幾所私立的實驗學校可以教雙語 沒幾所耶科學園區的這個實驗學校幾所 全台灣六所"},{"start":260.174,"end":281.83,"text":"所以其實大部分公立學校的學生是不具雙語能力的你怎麼讓一個在本國的這個外籍人士的子女只有在哪裡可以受雙語 學校內除了學校外之後整個我們跟他同儕之間的小朋友玩在一塊的時候是不具英文能力的"},{"start":283.188,"end":286.389,"text":"所以這重點就是在於我本期要講的是你的開放還不足那我們就來看好這邊呢也針對一些人口結構這都你們講的這個為什麼要有這個法令啊的修改啊因為是國內缺財危機啦以及國際的淨財誘因啊"},{"start":301.215,"end":303.857,"text":"國際競才喔那產業全球佈局啊我們必須因應我們的產業來招攬人才啊那我國人口結構於2020年的時候死亡人數是大於出生人數的2020年也就是在大概這個五年前啦"},{"start":317.645,"end":325.15,"text":"我們的死亡人數大於出生人數再加上少子化高齡化預計2070年這是你們講的也就是現在是2025年45年後我的人口的都會減少到百分還會再減少40%所以呢我們的產業怎麼承受這樣的國際競爭力我們的產業如何在國際高級專業勞動力的引進也就勢在必行了可是現在成效如何不好啊"},{"start":343.403,"end":345.646,"text":"留下來的不高啊就是你的法律的開放根本就是激放觀不足然後誘因匱乏所以呢這個都是你們講的好那這個包括了我們未來的產業的重點就是說我們專業人力的引進是要契合國家發展的政策及國內產業的需求"},{"start":364.045,"end":366.607,"text":"好 那針對未來產業的重點應該引領該領域的專業人士你們認為要高科技AI本席認為觀光旅宿 會展 影視文化產業 國際貿易這些人才都需要都是需要這都應該要相對的來引進"},{"start":379.778,"end":398.164,"text":"好 那你們對於外籍教育人才其實你們只講兩個 第一個放寬什麼 放寬他的退休在你們修法的第27條說準用這些外籍人士只要在科學園區內的 不好意思你只有倩語明定科學園區內的公立實驗高級中學"},{"start":401.345,"end":417.682,"text":"六所 全台灣六所的雙語的老師準用公立學校所以私立的實驗學校的師資是不行的是不能準用的這也是你所謂的專業人才所以呢 再來"},{"start":419.183,"end":437.997,"text":"對於你為什麼讓本就優勢教師資源的園區的實驗中學拉大與非實驗中學甚至偏鄉學校的師資差距請藉機教育是翻轉偏鄉弱勢的最佳工具這是本席非常認為非常不公平的都是"},{"start":439.137,"end":461.647,"text":"都是國家資源引進的師資他們的費用都是我國家出的為什麼只有在科學園區內的只有私立實驗學校的可以的老師可以享有這樣的資源只有在這個退休 你這個退休不能只限於園區喔私立的外籍實在不行喔 我認為不公平"},{"start":462.827,"end":489.959,"text":"好 再來你的教學資源應該不分公司力應開放專業人士可以一起專長任教2030年的雙語國家也不過剩5年向下仗跟培養產業儲備人才我們為什麼要推雙語教育就是為了替產業儲備人才我們看奪落2018年7年前的國教署的諮詢會議你們的專家就講了喔他建議說應該要開放高中職以下"},{"start":491.38,"end":511.428,"text":"即使是非雙語的學校 你看你們的學者專家這樣的建議高中職以下的外籍師士的朋友不應限定在語言教學 就是在英語課教學為了因應高中職以下的英語實驗教學 譬如說沉浸式的英語教學或者是專業教育的國際化 高中職以下"},{"start":512.508,"end":539.234,"text":"由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目你們的專家學者還正面表列像音樂、藝術、餐飲、城市設計、設計等非學科的專業外籍人士來符合這些人都應該可以讓他們來教專業的科目而不是要求這些人只能教在英語課教英文才符合台灣學校的國際化我也讓"},{"start":540.734,"end":567.461,"text":"這個主委我想教育部很清楚我們聘用的外資有一個條件一定要擁有這個教師證但是不要忽略了這些聘來的外籍老師合格外籍老師全部都是什麼大部分百分之八九十他都有專業學科的能力我是地理的合格的英文老師我是自然的英文老師我是美術的英文老師大有人在占了百分之八九十"},{"start":567.941,"end":571.014,"text":"专门指示我是English as teacher的"},{"start":572.75,"end":597.209,"text":"就是說我是純粹教英語教學的老師其實是少部分的這個是你沒有善用你引進外資的優勢那教育資源不分公私立 我的本席主張我認為有四個不公平第一個 為什麼只偏立私立實驗學校及科學園區的實驗中學"},{"start":598.57,"end":616.619,"text":"公立學校的外籍師資一樣是你公司員引進的為什麼不能開放他去教其他非學科的 也就是所謂的數科的課程呢 為什麼為什麼只有私立實驗學校的外籍老師可以在英語課以外的課程進行雙語教學而公立學校卻不行"},{"start":617.844,"end":640.703,"text":"那公立學校的外籍老師在英語課之外也只也能教也希望能夠教非學科例如藝術跟體育課這才叫做你善用你的資源啊第二個你說前瞻計畫所聘用的外籍師資僅有在英文課教英文這根本就不前瞻啊你們幹嘛放在前瞻你就放在你們的你們的這個經常門就好了啊"},{"start":641.263,"end":657.77,"text":"把預算編多一點就好 根本還放在前瞻預算你們忽略了這些外籍師也有其專業領域可以傳授 這個根本就是一種浪費根本就不前瞻 沒有突破性 只有侷限第三個 外籍老師會強國本國老師的工作 這一點我覺得這是錯誤的訊息 也是假議題"},{"start":661.403,"end":674.216,"text":"主委教育部回答我外籍師資的名額是外加還是還是內涵第二個他會不會占到本國的缺第三個他是獨立教學還是協同教學來說明一下"},{"start":676.905,"end":689.816,"text":"這個 謝謝委員喔 我能不能先針對國安會能回答的我不要 我先針對這一題 這一題才是重點教育部這邊會有一些團體跟他說你不能讓我的外籍 引進來的外籍師師到這個其他 來教其他的課喔因為他會奪走了本國的老師的權益結果這是假議題啊因為第一個外籍師師是外聘的"},{"start":703.448,"end":707.069,"text":"第二個 他是外聘 他沒有用到勞基法他不可以使用勞基法所以他也不會占到本國老師的缺而且是外加名額 因為是聘用第三個 他不能單獨教學 他要協同教學所以一個課 你知道我們花了多大的成本你要做一個英文課 是兩個老師一個本國老師 一個外國老師在裡面教"},{"start":730.636,"end":747.49,"text":"這樣的成本你竟然還不讓協同教學你不善用他你也讓本國老師跟外國老師一起學習啊所以這是你要回答嗎這一題這個可能要請教育部來教育部回答會不會政告本有國德缺會不會是不是外加名額是不是外加名額請回答"},{"start":748.05,"end":767.114,"text":"是 謝謝委員的關切那這個名額部分我們了解是外加但是今天我們出席的是國際司跟人事處沒有國教署的同仁在場因為這個相當的國教署有啊 國教署專門委員王華盈那是不是請他王華盈 這邊你們寫的啊這個你們給我們經委 我們本委員會的"},{"start":773.908,"end":798.613,"text":"出席的名單跟委員報告依照我們的各級學校申請偶爾教室聘任的一個雇用跟管理辦法他其實他的原則數其實在規範的第5條他會應該是受到外國語文總結束的限制所以他的原則雖然說是不是在我們的編制原則裡面但是因為學校總結束的限制他可能會有一些排擠的效用排擠誰"},{"start":800.25,"end":808.288,"text":"就是因為外國語文的結束是固定的那如果說要有外籍教師跟本國教師一起去分攤的話他有一個總結束的限制"},{"start":809.062,"end":828.867,"text":"那是時數的問題啊他有沒有他勞工權益的問題沒有啊第一個外退啊所以這是假議題嘛你自己你的授課時數那個是你們可以調整的啊你要增加他授課時數也可以啊那個都是你行政便利可以處理啦重點是他會不會占掉本國老師的缺不會嘛你講的不會對吧你搖頭了嘛"},{"start":831.148,"end":855.02,"text":"對啊 所以你們不要被騙了教育部要堅持你國發會主委你聽清楚了嗎所以今天修法的時候不會佔外籍老師你來教非學科的部分是不會佔到本國老師的缺這是假議題而且是外加而且我們還明定要協同教學本期也主張要協同教學不是本國老師也要學"},{"start":856.06,"end":874.207,"text":"外籍老師也要學習怎麼跟我們融入啊再來第四個你這樣看現在各縣市在高雄我力推這個雙語教學我已經力退快將近十年了有時是EMI教學的學校的招生績效顯著啊家長反應正向且熱烈"},{"start":875.307,"end":899.14,"text":"好 所以本席要看 主委你要講一下的話教育部要講一下我直接講 我這邊講的重點這個具體建議要邁向2030年的雙語國家本席主張高中職以下的外籍老師即使是非雙語學校不應限定在教語言課而且所以呢 未來應應高中職以下的英語實驗教學如曾經式的英語教學或專業教育國際化來講"},{"start":902.142,"end":923.73,"text":"那由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目如音樂 藝術 餐飲 城市設計 或者設計等非學科講好喔 不要給我亂做文章喔說要連英文歷史 歷史 地理 自然都要教英文我不主張這件事情喔那個叫學科 我說非學科 也就是數科"},{"start":924.99,"end":953.428,"text":"的專業學科呢 已符合台灣國際教育法而且有這兩個要求第一個 國發會這邊 教育部這邊以約聘形式第二個 共同備課 協同教學所以根本就沒有佔用本國的錢而且我也善用你中共資源所引進的外籍實質然後呢 你們 我還給你們一個權利跟各部會去協調一下你到底啊 如果說真的是公私立學校要聘僱特定領域如非學科 美術啦 體育啊"},{"start":953.908,"end":970.793,"text":"你們可以來審查讓你們審查你們評估一下要不要去審查那甚至剛才評估的也對喬外申既然你們喬外申都願意讓他做永久居留的這樣的放寬的那評估讓他以英語為通用語或官方語言的喬外申聽好這句話"},{"start":972.694,"end":990.67,"text":"遵守合法取得教師證的條件之下我不破壞教師證的條件那喬外申怎麼樣適度的開放參與國內雙語教學的工作機會你讓他留才啊既然他的母語是譬如說讓他可以上一些學程教學還是不一樣"},{"start":991.651,"end":1007.065,"text":"你教一些學生 但是不好意思 你還是要依現有的制度真的要合法老師 你就必須考我們的制度那但是呢 為了善用你的能力 你有英語跟通用語或官方語言 我如何善用它也留住這個外籍生的一個目標再來"},{"start":1010.968,"end":1037.713,"text":"所以我提供我這邊主張你的修法第4條本條本法條的第4條第4項當中的專業工作當中的第5款修改文字改為公私立高中職以下學校進行雙語實驗教育聘請外資可以依其專長任教語言及語言以外之學科語言以外之學科並協助相關教學及教師研習培訓的工作"},{"start":1038.473,"end":1049.502,"text":"他也可以參與啊所以我不曉得主委你怎麼看這樣本席的建議這個我們會因為這個這個權者還是在教育部我們會找教育部來來教育部表達一下知不知恥你知道來教育部要回答時候你要知道你如果再不支持我們再繼續好剛才我講的是7年前你們的專家學者會議已經提出來了本席111年"},{"start":1066.209,"end":1085.092,"text":"也就是現在的四年前我就已經找你們來談這件事情了你們都還有時期的思路喔七年前也講 四年前本席在講今天四年後的2025年你再不開放沒有勞工權益的問題我說教育部你支不支持本席這樣的提案呢"},{"start":1086.516,"end":1102.201,"text":"協議委員建議我們會待會去研議所以是不支持是嗎我們會研議研議是不支持是嗎 研議不支持還是研議支持 講清楚應該說您的建議我們會放到後續的一個你是因為來的層次太低嗎 專委而已所以不敢講 部長沒有來不敢講 市長沒有來不敢講是研議反對"},{"start":1108.625,"end":1124.074,"text":"我們是開放的意見我們是開放的意見延逸支持嘛來講清楚你是延逸支持本席的意見還是延逸反對本席的意見我們是開放態度來看這件事開放喔這是你講的莊委好那國發會來因為你還是主管機關啊他說他延逸開放啊"},{"start":1129.901,"end":1153.964,"text":"所以本席會提修正動議 我雖然沒有提要我提修正動議我們這一點還是會尊重教育部啦 因為我們不是教育的專業是是是 您這個答案我不支持啊 我不認同啊如果身為國發會的主委 你都知道你的專業人才不能久留是因為他的 他沒有在雙語的環境當中讓他孩子受教育"},{"start":1154.885,"end":1161.134,"text":"這是你的主因所以你既然說你還尊重教育部如果教育部跟你說NO你就不會去講到說你國際攬財的一個盲點在哪裡你要去突破那你主委在做什麼我們會去找教育部討論吧所以你是支持嗎"},{"start":1170.814,"end":1189.27,"text":"我們會朝這個方向來討論支持本席嗎?支持本席的開放的條件嗎?基本上方向你要延逸反對我也沒意見喔你延逸支持開放本席的這個建議那我就覺得沒關係只要有助於這個攬財我們都會站在這邊那你覺得本席的意見有沒有攬財?"},{"start":1194.914,"end":1209.246,"text":"這奇怪 你要讓我留在這裡這麼久你就不敢說我就是支持你的方向是支持染財我們基本上也會朝這個方向去溝通好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝代發委員我們未來修法的時候可以再仔細討論"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":588,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（10時51分）有請國發會主委跟教育部。"],["主席：請國發會跟教育部。"],["林委員岱樺：我們這部外國專業人才延攬及僱用法，在本席看了之後，我覺得就兩句話，就是開放不足、誘因匱乏。如果比照新加坡，當然我們都會說新加坡是一個完全國際化的城市，他們在攬才、留才，甚至他們會用一個更高層次的移民的角度來做他們國內人才的補充，他們在25年前就有一個獅城計畫，其實就是他們的移民法規，如果就我國現在提出來的行政院版本，有關外國攬才對照25年前的新加坡，我還是剛才講的那句話，就是開放不足、誘因匱乏，但我們總算進了一小步，還是可稱進步。","剛才您在答詢當中說，外國專業人才留下來四成，這麼少的原因是因為我們國內沒有雙語教育的環境，那本席就針對國內雙語受教權的公平性，跟本法如何兼顧國內雙語受教權的公平性。什麼叫做雙語的環境？它不是只有學校，你們現在只開放這些專業人才的孩子只有到私立實驗學校，現在稍微再開放一點，叫做科學園區內的實驗學校。科學園區內的學校是誰管？不是教育部管，是國科會管，雖然它的課程還是會受教育部所管，這就是你所謂的受教，出了這些學校之外，我們有沒有雙語環境？同儕之間，外籍人士住在這個社區，他要不要跟本國的小孩子接觸？總是要吧！我們的小孩子有沒有雙語能力？沒有啊，因為我們公立學校的外籍師資只限於英文課時教英文，我們不允許他在英文課之外去教非學科的課程。什麼叫非學科？要聽好喔，不是國語、歷史、地理這些科目，而是指術科，所以我才叫非學科及術科。","你們現在都用前瞻計畫的預算支持我們這些外籍師資的聘用，可是外籍師資的聘用，現在進到了私立實驗學校，或者進到現在的科學園區，他們這些老師是可以在術科裡面教學，甚至他如果大膽一點，在一些學科當中去教雙語，這是可以的。可是你現在同樣用國家資源前瞻計畫聘的外籍師資，到了公立學校，不好意思，他只能教什麼？他只能在英語課教英文，其他在體育課、美術課、家政課、音樂課他都不可以教。所以本席覺得專業人士的小孩沒有在雙語的環境裡面，他根本活不下去，因為外師只限於在私立學校教雙語。全臺灣有幾所私立的實驗學校可以教雙語？沒幾所，科學園區的實驗學校全臺灣只有六所，所以大部分公立學校的學生是不具雙語能力的，你怎麼讓一個在本國的外籍人士的子女只有在學校內可以受雙語教育，出了學校後，我們跟他同儕之間的小朋友玩在一塊的時候，是不具英文能力的，所以本席要講的重點是你的開放還不足。","接下來也針對一些人口結構來討論，這都是你們講的，為什麼要修改這個法令？因為國內缺才危機，以及國際競才誘因、產業全球布局，我們必須因應我們的產業要求來招攬人才。我國人口結構於2020年的時候，死亡人數是大於出生人數的，也就是大概五年前，我們的死亡人數大於出生人數，再加上少子化、高齡化，你們說預計2070年，也就是45年後，我們的人口還會再減少40%，所以我們的產業怎麼承受這樣的國際競爭力？我們的產業引進國際高級專業勞動力也就勢在必行了，可是現在成效如何？不好啊，留下來的人才比例不高，就是你的法令開放根本就是既放寬不足，然後誘因匱乏，這也都是你們講的。","我們未來產業的重點，就是我們專業人力的引進是要契合國家發展的政策及國內產業的需求，針對未來產業的重點，應該強化對該領域專業人才的招攬，你們認為要高科技、AI，本席認為觀光旅宿、會展、影視文化產業、國際貿易，這些人才都需要引進。","你們對於外籍教育人才其實只講兩個部分，第一個是放寬他的退休規定，在你們修正草案的第二十七條明定科學園區內的公立實驗高級中學（全臺灣只有六所）雙語老師準用公立學校教師退休規定，所以私立實驗學校的師資不能準用，這也是你所謂的專業人才。你為什麼讓本就優勢教師資源的園區實驗中學，拉大與非實驗中學，甚至偏鄉學校的師資差距？請切記教育是翻轉偏鄉弱勢的最佳工具，這是本席認為非常不公平的，都是國家資源引進的師資，他們的費用都是國家出的，為什麼只有在科學園區內私立實驗學校的老師可以享有這樣的資源？你這個退休規定只限於園區喔！私立的外師不行，這我認為不公平。","再來是教學資源應該不分公、私立，開放專業人士可以依其專長任教，2030年雙語國家的目標離現在不過剩5年時間，向下扎根跟培養產業儲備人才是最重要的工作。我們為什麼要推雙語教育？就是為了替產業儲備人才。看我們多落伍，在2018年（七年前）國教署諮詢會議中，你們的專家就建議說，應該開放高中職以下外師聘任，即使是非雙語的學校，你們學者專家也建議，高中職以下外籍師資的聘用不應限定在語言教學，就是不限定在英語課教學，為了因應高中職以下的英語實驗教學，譬如沈浸式的英語教學，或是專業教育的國際化，高中職以下，由各級學校依照實際的教學需求，聘任該科目的外師。你們的專家學者還正面表列，像音樂、藝術、餐飲、程式設計、設計等非學科的專業外籍人士，這些人都應該可以讓他們來教專業科目，而不是要求這些人只能在英語課教英文，才符合臺灣學校的國際化。主委，我想教育部很清楚，我們聘用的外師有一個條件是一定要擁有教師證，但是不要忽略了這些聘來的合格外籍老師全部都是什麼？百分之八、九十，大部分都有專業學科的能力，我是地理的合格英文老師，我是自然的英文老師，我是美術的英文老師，大有人在，占了百分之八、九十，專門只是English as a teacher，就是純粹教英語教學的老師其實是少部分的，這個是你沒有善用你引進外師的優勢。","教育資源不分公私立，本席主張有四個不公平：第一個，為什麼只偏利私立實驗學校及科學園區的實驗中學？公立學校的外籍師資一樣是用公資源引進的，為什麼不能開放他去教其他非學科的，也就是所謂術科的課程？為什麼？為什麼只有私立實驗學校的外籍老師可以在英語課以外的課程進行雙語教學，而公立學校卻不行？公立學校的外籍老師在英語課之外，也希望能夠教非學科，例如藝術跟體育課，這個才叫做善用你的資源。第二個，你說前瞻計畫所聘用的外籍師資僅有在英文課教英文，這根本就不前瞻，你們幹嘛放在前瞻？你就放在你們的經常門就好了，把編預算編多一點就好，幹嘛還放在前瞻預算？你們忽略這些外籍師資也有其專業領域可以傳授，這根本就是一種浪費，根本就不前瞻，沒有突破性，只有侷限。第三個，外籍老師會搶本國老師的工作這一點，我覺得這是錯誤的訊息，也是假議題。主委跟教育部回答我，外籍師資的名額是外加還是還是內含？第二，他會不會占到本國的缺？第三，他是獨立教學，還是協同教學？說明一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我能不能先針對國發會能回答的……"],["林委員岱樺：我不要，我先針對這一題，這一題才是重點，教育部這邊會有一些團體跟它說，你不能讓我引進來的外籍師資來教其他的課，因為他會奪走了本國老師的權益，結果這是假議題，因為第一個，外籍師資是外聘的；第二個，他是外聘，他沒有用到勞基法，他不可以使用勞基法，所以他也不會占到本國老師的缺，而且是外加名額，因為是聘用；第三個，他不能單獨教學，他要協同教學。所以一個課你知道我們花了多大的成本，你要做一個英文課，是兩個老師，一個本國老師和一個外國老師在裡面教，這樣的成本，你竟然還不協同教學，你不善用他？你也讓本國老師跟外籍老師一起學習，所以你要回答嗎？這一題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個可能要請教育部。"],["林委員岱樺：教育部回答，會不會占到本國的缺？是不是外加名額？請回答。"],["藍代理副司長先茜：是，謝謝委員的關切，這個名額的部分，我們了解是外加，但是今天因為我們出席的是國際司跟人事處，沒有國教署的同仁在場，因為這個相當的……"],["林委員岱樺：國教署有啊！國教署專門委員黃懷瑩。"],["藍代理副司長先茜：那是不是請他……"],["林委員岱樺：黃懷瑩，這邊你們寫的，你們給我們經委會本委員會的出席名單。"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：是，跟委員報告，依照我們各級學校申請外國教師聘僱許可及管理辦法，他的員額數其實規範在第五條，應該是受到外國語文總節數的限制，所以他的員額雖然不是在我們的編制員額裡面，但是因為學校總節數的限制，他可能會有一些排擠的效用。"],["林委員岱樺：排斥誰？"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：就是因為外國語文的節數是固定的，如果要由外籍教師跟本國教師一起去分攤的話，它有一個總節數的限制。"],["林委員岱樺：那是時數的問題啊，有沒有他勞工權益的問題？沒有啊！"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：沒有。"],["林委員岱樺：對啊！所以這是假議題嘛！授課時數是你們可以調整的，你要增加他授課時數也可以，那都是你行政命令可以處理的，重點是他會不會占掉本國老師的缺，不會嘛！你講的不會，對吧？你搖頭了嘛，對啊！所以你們不要被騙了，教育部要堅持，國發會主委你聽清楚了嗎？所以今天的修法，外籍老師來教非學科的部分，是不會占到本國老師的缺！這是假議題，而且是外加，而且我們還明定要協同教學，本席也主張要協同教學，本國老師也要學，外籍老師也要學習怎麼跟我們融入；再來第四個，你這樣看看現在各縣市，在高雄我力推雙語教學，我已經力推快將近十年了，有實施EMI教學的學校，招生績效顯著啊！家長反應正向且熱烈。","好，所以主委，你要講一下話，教育部要講一下，我直接講，我這邊講的重點，具體建議要邁向2030年的雙語國家，本席主張高中職以下的外籍老師即使是非雙語學校，不應限定在教語言課，所以未來因應高中職以下的英語實驗教學，如沉浸式的英語教學或專業教育國際化來講，由各級學校依照實際的教學需求聘任該科目，如音樂、藝術、餐飲、程式設計或者設計等非學科，講好喔！不要給我亂作文章說連英文、歷史、地理、自然都要教英文，我不主張這件事情，那個叫學科，我說非學科，也就是術科的專業學科，以符合臺灣學校國際化的教育需求，而且有這兩個要求，第一個，國發會、教育部這邊以約聘形式；第二個，共同備課、協同教學，所以根本就沒有占用本國的缺，而且我也善用公資源所引進的外籍師資，我還給你們一個權力，跟各部會去協調一下，如果真的是公私立學校要聘僱特定領域，如非學科美術、體育，你們可以來審查，讓你們審查，你們評估一下要不要去審查，甚至剛才評估的，對於僑外生，既然你們都願意讓僑外生做永久居留這樣的放寬了，那麼評估讓他以英語為通用語或官方語言的僑外生，聽好這句話，遵守合法取得教師證的條件之下，我不破壞教師證的條件，僑外生怎麼樣適度的開放參與國內雙語教學的工作機會，你讓他留才，既然他的母語是啊！譬如讓他可以上一些學程，教學還是不一樣，你教一些學程，但是不好意思，你還是要依現有制度，真的要合法老師，你就必須來考我們的制度。但是為了善用你的能力，你有英語為通用語或官方語言的，我如何善用他，也留住外籍生的一個目標。再來，所以我這邊主張你的修法，即本法條第四條第四項「專業工作」當中的第五款修改文字，改為「公、私立高中職以下學校進行雙語實驗教育聘請外師，可以依其專長任教語言及語言以外之學科，並協助相關教學及教師研習、培訓等工作。」他也可以參與。所以我不曉得主委，你怎麼看本席這樣的建議？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這個權責還是在教育部，我們會找教育部來研議。"],["林委員岱樺：教育部表達一下，支不支持？教育部要回答的時候，你要知道你如果再不支持，我們再繼續耗，剛才我講的是七年前你們的專家學者會議已經提出來了，本席在111年，也就是現在的四年前，我就已經找你們來談這件事情，你們都還有實質的紀錄，七年前也講，四年前本席再講，今天是四年後的2025年，你再不開放？沒有勞工權益的問題，所以教育部支不支持本席這樣的提案呢？"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：謝謝委員建議，我們會帶回去研議。"],["林委員岱樺：所以是不支持是嗎？"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：我們會研議。"],["林委員岱樺：研議是不支持是嗎？研議不支持，還是研議支持？講清楚！"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：應該說您的建議，我們會放到後續的……"],["林委員岱樺：你是因為來的層次太低嗎？專委而已，所以不敢講，部長沒有來不敢講、次長沒有來不敢講？"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：因為涉及……"],["林委員岱樺：是研議反對。"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：不是……"],["林委員岱樺：不對？"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：我們持開放的意見。"],["林委員岱樺：研議支持嘛！來，講清楚，你是研議支持本席的意見，還是研議反對本席的意見？"],["黃專門委員懷瑩：我們持開放態度來看這件事。"],["林委員岱樺：好，開放喔！這是你講的，專委。","好，國發會來，因為你還是主管機關，他說他研議開放，所以本席會提修正動議，我雖然沒有提案，但我會提修正動議。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這一點我們還是會尊重教育部，因為我們不是教育專業。"],["林委員岱樺：是、是，您這個答案我不支持、我不認同，如果身為國發會主委都知道專業人才不能久留是因為沒有雙語的環境讓他的孩子受教育，這是主因，而你竟然說你尊重教育部，如果教育部跟你說No，你就不會講到你國際攬才的盲點在哪裡、要如何突破，那你主委在做什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會去找教育部討論。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你是支持嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會朝這個方向來討論。"],["林委員岱樺：支持本席嗎？支持本席開放的條件嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：基本上方向……"],["林委員岱樺：你如果跟我說要研議反對，我也沒意見，你就明說你會研議支持本席的這個開放建議，那我就沒關係。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：只要有助於攬才，我們都會站在這個方向……"],["林委員岱樺：那你覺得本席的意見有沒有攬才？這很奇怪耶！你讓我在這裡「嚕」這麼久，你就不敢說你是支持，那你的專業在哪裡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：您的方向是支持攬才，基本上，我們也會朝這個方向去溝通。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝，以上。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員。未來修法的時候，可以再仔細討論。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝主席。"],["主席：下一位請賴瑞隆委員發言。另外，陳秀寳委員發言後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,26,22-1","speakers":["蔡易餘","羅美玲","邱議瑩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","吳沛憶","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","陳秀寳","呂玉玲","陳菁徽","劉建國","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳超明","黃秀芳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅廷瑋","陳亭妃","張雅琳","范雲","郭昱晴","王正旭","蔡易餘","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","邱志偉","林月琴","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","柯志恩","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：(一)行政院函請審議「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案、(二)本院委員何欣純等\n19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條及第十四條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳\n亭妃等16 人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第四條、第六條及第十四條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案、(五)本院委員羅美\n玲等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1146001_00014"}}}