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\"真的是很沉痛再講一次因為我相信這不會是因為這不是第一件也不會是最後一件接下來還會有非常非常多件這種社福預算會受到影響的狀況部長我這樣理解應該是正確吧是的也謝謝蘇委員的關心因為長久以來我們都知道這個租金補貼的政策沒有政黨也沒有中央地方之分是但是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 597.912, \"end\": 598.032, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 598.032, \"end\": 598.152, \"score\": 0.461}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 598.152, \"end\": 598.252, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 598.252, \"end\": 598.372, \"score\": 0.216}, {\"word\": \"沉\", \"start\": 598.372, \"end\": 598.553, \"score\": 0.622}, {\"word\": \"痛\", \"start\": 598.553, \"end\": 598.713, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 598.713, \"end\": 599.013, \"score\": 0.617}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 599.013, \"end\": 599.173, \"score\": 0.492}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 599.173, \"end\": 599.433, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 599.433, \"end\": 599.994, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 599.994, \"end\": 600.094, \"score\": 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\"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 770.815, \"end\": 770.935, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"蘇\"}, {\"word\": \"曉\"}, {\"word\": \"輝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 770.935, \"end\": 770.955, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,476 --> 00:00:34,229\n好謝謝主席我們請劉部長劉部長也請部員早部長好齁部長那今天雖然是要先講這個公寓大廈的公社典交正業不過我還是想就昨天的新聞來就部長請教我想昨天的一個大家很關心的新聞是\n\n2\n00:00:35,129 --> 00:00:39,151\n我們推行多年中央補助的這個租金補貼那深受好評你可以看得到這個300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案其實租金補貼專案是一年一年跟因為\n\n3\n00:00:52,136 --> 00:01:09,726\n申請的人越來越多所以中央政府也越推越大越推越廣金額持續的加碼所以可以看到人數人數的部分對不對我們其實是一直往上增加不管是在決算金額或受益戶數都一直上升可是昨天看到這個新聞是說因為\n\n4\n00:01:13,689 --> 00:01:31,362\n這個才化法修正其實應該是說我們從報紙上面看到這個未來從明年開始中央可能不再全額補助而希望各地方縣市政府能夠有不擔自籌的部分所以地方縣市政府都跳腳部長這是怎麼回事\n\n5\n00:01:33,564 --> 00:01:51,562\n報告委員原則上是這樣子因為內政部的國土署在6月12的時候有發函那是因為六都裡面有五都在籌編預概算的人要求我們國土署是否可以告訴他們明年度他們的預算裡面要不要把租金補貼的這個分擔比例\n\n6\n00:01:53,985 --> 00:02:15,578\n放到他們在地方縣市政府的預算裡面所以我們國土署就發了一個公文過去那這個當然是一個通案的原則所謂的通案的原則就是說因為在111年之前本來在租金補貼的部分當時就是有中央跟地方政府按照他的這個這個財力的分級\n\n7\n00:02:18,380 --> 00:02:44,902\n來做負擔的比例但是到111年的時候因為當時的行政院長他有提到那因為中央的稅收比較多所以願意幫地方政府來負擔他們應該負擔的比例所以過去兩三年以來呢都是由中央來全額負擔那我們是放在住宅基金裡面那他的撥補如果不夠的話呢是由行政院撥補到這個住宅基金這第一個先跟委員報告\n\n8\n00:02:45,783 --> 00:03:02,018\n那從明年開始因為財政收支劃分法在今年三月已經對外三讀通過跟公告所以明年開始中央政府的收入會減少那地方政府的收入會增加所以我們希望地方政府在籌編\n\n9\n00:03:03,379 --> 00:03:22,481\n明年的預算的時候的比率上面是否可以恢復原來的這個財力的分級的部分呢把它編列到地方政府裡面去那這裡面呢也可以跟委員報告一下其實今年開始啊有關租金補貼申請的時候它的審查就是在地方政府\n\n10\n00:03:23,181 --> 00:03:43,807\n那中央只是說就有一些資訊錯誤或是抽查做比例所以申請的戶數是84萬戶可是通過的戶數是72萬戶那當然其中六都市最多的部分所以我們是按照這樣的方式也就是依照新的財政收支劃分法在明年地方\n\n11\n00:03:44,167 --> 00:04:09,539\n制度上面必須要配合的住宅政策也就是租金補貼政策的時候希望地方縣市政府在籌編也可以把這個納為籌編的預算的項目之一好謝謝部長部長說得很清楚那我也給您完整的時間那我們再逐個簡化一點來講因為這個題目您剛剛說到的111年起由中央全額補助這時候我也已經在立法院了我記得這個過程是這樣\n\n12\n00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:27,199\n租金我們台灣人自己要住房子有時候沒有辦法買馬上買的時候我們都去租租的時候如果國家能夠給我一點更多的補貼補助對我們的幫忙其實是很大的所以租金的補貼大家都覺得應該要做\n\n13\n00:04:28,601 --> 00:04:42,207\n好到了111年的時候呢有兩件事情第一個就是當時的財政好國家的稅收多所以按照過去的狀況中央政府有預渡這是第一個中央政府有預渡財政好第二個是因為我們當年在國會質詢的時候我們一直有一個想法各種社福資源\n\n14\n00:04:53,411 --> 00:05:15,244\n全體國民不應該區分他居住在哪一個縣市不管是育兒津貼也好或者是生產津貼也好甚至是包括這些各式各樣的社福津貼不應該因為你居住的縣市不同而有不同的待遇所以如果是統一性的社福政策能夠由中央\n\n15\n00:05:16,465 --> 00:05:27,390\n一次來統一那麼你住在任何一個地方都收到一樣的保障一樣的待遇我們當時都認為這樣是好的是對的所以都贊同了這樣的政策由中央來全部執行全部補貼數而統一我們是這樣子的想法也做了這麼多年看起來剛剛看到大家這樣的數字決算數字還有這個戶數申請一年比一年多就知道這是一個好的政策而且大家越來越習慣越來越受歡迎\n\n16\n00:05:45,177 --> 00:06:08,586\n所以我們當然希望他能夠執行啊而且在這個執行的過程中最最重要的人民不會分你是中央還是地方啦最重要的是這個補助的金額不能少然後會入到我的口袋裡面來就是這麼簡單而已嘛好所以結論我們是希望補貼的錢不要少那麼來了問題來了那麼現在到底中央和地方政府要照\n\n17\n00:06:10,546 --> 00:06:36,352\n111年前的分法中央負擔一部分地方負擔一部分那甚至地方你還可以決定你到底要加多少等等的嗎這是一種嗎還是是全部繼續由中央買單如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望地方縣市政府當然我如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望中央全額買單啊不用我出錢當然好啊我是來自地方的我當然希望我的錢越多越好\n\n18\n00:06:36,972 --> 00:06:45,558\n尤其是你看看我們如果台北市跟新北市補的話其實在新北得到租屋補貼的戶數超過10萬戶台北只有6萬戶可見得我新北需要的比較多啊那可是相對來講如果要地方縣市政府負擔的話新北市政府負擔的就比較多啊\n\n19\n00:06:57,367 --> 00:07:20,477\n你看同樣6萬戶跟10萬戶我們兩個負擔起來怎麼都是18億那可是回過頭來在這個統籌分配款這個財化法新修正之後台北市有沒有拿的比我多有啊那這樣子的話我們新北一樣拿最少為什麼我還是負擔這個比例呢所以這些事情這些細節坦白講當時在財化法修正的時候有沒有討論到沒有嘛\n\n20\n00:07:23,098 --> 00:07:47,003\n就是沒有啊我們再說一次我們從來不反對才化法修正民進黨甚至包括我蘇巧慧我從不反對才化法修正我也支持地方可以得到更多的預算但是我們反對的是當時在這個過程當中你只喊一個數字接下來像這種社福的部分到底是誰應該負擔多少\n\n21\n00:07:49,127 --> 00:07:57,053\n我現在新北如果負擔這個乘數的話跟其他縣市比比如說跟台北市比這樣負擔的乘數公平嗎我覺得不公平啊對不對那我有沒有機會表達呢通通都沒有啊那現在這樣狀況好了\n\n22\n00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:28,166\n才化法看起來多拿了300億那可是現在中央沒有錢啊好我也可以說中央你就是把這個錢全部都要補足對社福跟人民很相關一定要補足但雞蛋裡面的籃子裡面的雞蛋就是這麼多個你一樣拿了這些雞蛋走了之後那誰沒有雞蛋可能我們就沒有辦法買潛艦啊可能沒有辦法買飛機啊就這麼簡單嘛因為籃子裡面的雞蛋數是一定的啊\n\n23\n00:08:33,007 --> 00:08:56,178\n這就是今天的狀況嘛所以部長我其實這段發言是有點感慨啦因為也已經講了慷慨激揚的講了這個半年多一年多了也已經講到累了我相信今天這個朱經天喔我看你其實是在去年的12月這個財化法修正通過的時候12月27號你去年的12月27號你就第一次就是說\n\n24\n00:08:57,198 --> 00:09:02,722\n才化法三讀要刪除283.5億然後就可能會影響到租屋補貼你那時候就說了嘛那現在的話我們身為民意代表我們一樣要求啦我們還是要求進到人民口袋的錢不能少不管你們怎麼協調一定要不能少啦這是我們要求的第一點啦\n\n25\n00:09:16,932 --> 00:09:31,327\n不管是之後你是不是可以再譬如說提追加預算行政院提追加預算啊或者想窮盡任何的方法反正籠子是別人捅的但是想辦法要補破網還是我們的工作啦就是行政權現在也還是在你這裡嘛但\n\n26\n00:09:32,388 --> 00:09:42,013\n希望部長能夠盡力的把這個事情的問題再次的說明給大家聽冤有頭債有主今天的問題到底是從何而來就是從這個沒有討論配套的財政收支劃分法亂修之後所形成的狀況這個是我們在這裡利用今天的時局時間\n\n27\n00:09:57,912 --> 00:10:04,538\n真的是很沉痛再講一次因為我相信這不會是因為這不是第一件也不會是最後一件接下來還會有非常非常多件這種社福預算會受到影響的狀況部長我這樣理解應該是正確吧是的也謝謝蘇委員的關心因為長久以來我們都知道這個租金補貼的政策沒有政黨也沒有中央地方之分是但是\n\n28\n00:10:19,651 --> 00:10:39,148\n巧婦難為無米之炊我們沒有錢就是沒有錢那所以我們會希望說地方政府如果可以幫忙分攤的話這個分攤比例的原則那我們大概會是要依照行政院的主計總署看有沒有在新的財政收支劃分法通過之後他有新的設算原則來請地方政府能夠配合\n\n29\n00:10:40,229 --> 00:11:07,241\n但是我們不希望影響到尤其是明年度開始今年度還是按照原來的舊的方式來執行明年度開始的時候不要影響到要申請的這些年輕人租金補貼的政策因為大一部分蘇委員所提的沒有錯大一部分申請租金補貼最多的就是落在六都新北市當然有十幾萬戶我看到了包括台北市、桃園市、台中市台中市相當的多\n\n30\n00:11:08,221 --> 00:11:21,191\n在戶數可能是最多的部分13萬戶所以我們很希望說在按照這樣戶數的比例之下可以共同來分攤因為六都裡面如果按照舊的行政院的這個主計處的財力分攤的話新北市是要負擔30%\n\n31\n00:11:25,894 --> 00:11:35,457\n那台北市是負擔40%但是這個有沒有轉圜的餘地的話我們就依這個行政院主計出來不考而設我們如果要討論剛剛有說討論事情其實就是應該連配套一次想好這才是我們做事的風格嘛好那如果是這樣的話既然新的財化法已經修正上路了已經通過開始施行了那現在的財力負擔的這個分級表是不是也應該要重新檢討\n\n32\n00:11:50,362 --> 00:12:10,594\n因為現在各個縣市拿的狀況不一樣了啊這次的修法很多地方因為他的委員之前在國會叫囂的比較大聲他的縣市拿比較多那是不是換我們這個當時人均最少的新北我們反而應該是要可以怎麼怎麼調整我們是不是他的財力負擔其實也應該怎麼調整不然的話我現在看我們負擔最大的人反而應該要負最多\n\n33\n00:12:19,219 --> 00:12:44,142\n我也覺得這蠻奇怪的啊這個像台北市這麼有錢對不對這個要怎麼去討論每一個縣市當然都會有它的優點和這個不足之處台北市當然也有它的困境但我覺得這整體來講新的標準應該怎麼討論這個可能請部長在尊政要推行的時候這個也必須要重新思考一下我們會把這些意見反映給主計總處\n\n34\n00:12:44,963 --> 00:12:50,955\n因為有關於財稅的這個籌款的比例的原則的話是主計總數做最後的定案好謝謝副長好謝謝蘇曉輝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8476\t34229\t好 謝謝主席 我們請劉部長劉部長也請部員早 部長好齁 部長那今天雖然是要先講這個公寓大廈的公社典交正業不過我還是想就昨天的新聞來就部長請教我想昨天的一個大家很關心的新聞是\n35129\t39151\t我們推行多年中央補助的這個租金補貼那深受好評你可以看得到這個300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案其實租金補貼專案是一年一年跟因為\n52136\t69726\t申請的人越來越多所以中央政府也越推越大越推越廣金額持續的加碼所以可以看到人數人數的部分對不對我們其實是一直往上增加不管是在決算金額或受益戶數都一直上升可是昨天看到這個新聞是說因為\n73689\t91362\t這個才化法修正其實應該是說我們從報紙上面看到這個未來從明年開始中央可能不再全額補助而希望各地方縣市政府能夠有不擔自籌的部分所以地方縣市政府都跳腳部長這是怎麼回事\n93564\t111562\t報告委員原則上是這樣子因為內政部的國土署在6月12的時候有發函那是因為六都裡面有五都在籌編預概算的人要求我們國土署是否可以告訴他們明年度他們的預算裡面要不要把租金補貼的這個分擔比例\n113985\t135578\t放到他們在地方縣市政府的預算裡面所以我們國土署就發了一個公文過去那這個當然是一個通案的原則所謂的通案的原則就是說因為在111年之前本來在租金補貼的部分當時就是有中央跟地方政府按照他的這個這個財力的分級\n138380\t164902\t來做負擔的比例但是到111年的時候因為當時的行政院長他有提到那因為中央的稅收比較多所以願意幫地方政府來負擔他們應該負擔的比例所以過去兩三年以來呢都是由中央來全額負擔那我們是放在住宅基金裡面那他的撥補如果不夠的話呢是由行政院撥補到這個住宅基金這第一個先跟委員報告\n165783\t182018\t那從明年開始因為財政收支劃分法在今年三月已經對外三讀通過跟公告所以明年開始中央政府的收入會減少那地方政府的收入會增加所以我們希望地方政府在籌編\n183379\t202481\t明年的預算的時候的比率上面是否可以恢復原來的這個財力的分級的部分呢把它編列到地方政府裡面去那這裡面呢也可以跟委員報告一下其實今年開始啊有關租金補貼申請的時候它的審查就是在地方政府\n203181\t223807\t那中央只是說就有一些資訊錯誤或是抽查做比例所以申請的戶數是84萬戶可是通過的戶數是72萬戶那當然其中六都市最多的部分所以我們是按照這樣的方式也就是依照新的財政收支劃分法在明年地方\n224167\t249539\t制度上面必須要配合的住宅政策也就是租金補貼政策的時候希望地方縣市政府在籌編也可以把這個納為籌編的預算的項目之一好 謝謝部長 部長說得很清楚那我也給您完整的時間那我們再逐個簡化一點來講因為這個題目您剛剛說到的111年起由中央全額補助這時候我也已經在立法院了我記得這個過程是這樣\n251480\t267199\t租金我們台灣人自己要住房子有時候沒有辦法買馬上買的時候我們都去租租的時候如果國家能夠給我一點更多的補貼補助對我們的幫忙其實是很大的所以租金的補貼大家都覺得應該要做\n268601\t282207\t好到了111年的時候呢有兩件事情第一個就是當時的財政好國家的稅收多所以按照過去的狀況中央政府有預渡這是第一個中央政府有預渡財政好第二個是因為我們當年在國會質詢的時候我們一直有一個想法各種社福資源\n293411\t315244\t全體國民不應該區分他居住在哪一個縣市不管是育兒津貼也好或者是生產津貼也好甚至是包括這些各式各樣的社福津貼不應該因為你居住的縣市不同而有不同的待遇所以如果是統一性的社福政策能夠由中央\n316465\t327390\t一次來統一那麼你住在任何一個地方都收到一樣的保障一樣的待遇我們當時都認為這樣是好的是對的所以都贊同了這樣的政策由中央來全部執行全部補貼數而統一我們是這樣子的想法也做了這麼多年看起來剛剛看到大家這樣的數字決算數字還有這個戶數申請一年比一年多就知道這是一個好的政策而且大家越來越習慣越來越受歡迎\n345177\t368586\t所以我們當然希望他能夠執行啊而且在這個執行的過程中最最重要的人民不會分你是中央還是地方啦最重要的是這個補助的金額不能少然後會入到我的口袋裡面來就是這麼簡單而已嘛好所以結論我們是希望補貼的錢不要少那麼來了問題來了那麼現在到底中央和地方政府要照\n370546\t396352\t111年前的分法中央負擔一部分地方負擔一部分那甚至地方你還可以決定你到底要加多少等等的嗎這是一種嗎還是是全部繼續由中央買單如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望地方縣市政府當然我如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望中央全額買單啊不用我出錢當然好啊我是來自地方的我當然希望我的錢越多越好\n396972\t405558\t尤其是你看看我們如果台北市跟新北市補的話其實在新北得到租屋補貼的戶數超過10萬戶台北只有6萬戶可見得我新北需要的比較多啊那可是相對來講如果要地方縣市政府負擔的話新北市政府負擔的就比較多啊\n417367\t440477\t你看同樣6萬戶跟10萬戶我們兩個負擔起來怎麼都是18億那可是回過頭來在這個統籌分配款這個財化法新修正之後台北市有沒有拿的比我多有啊那這樣子的話我們新北一樣拿最少為什麼我還是負擔這個比例呢所以這些事情這些細節坦白講當時在財化法修正的時候有沒有討論到沒有嘛\n443098\t467003\t就是沒有啊我們再說一次我們從來不反對才化法修正民進黨甚至包括我蘇巧慧我從不反對才化法修正我也支持地方可以得到更多的預算但是我們反對的是當時在這個過程當中你只喊一個數字接下來像這種社福的部分到底是誰應該負擔多少\n469127\t477053\t我現在新北如果負擔這個乘數的話跟其他縣市比 比如說跟台北市比這樣負擔的乘數公平嗎我覺得不公平啊 對不對那我有沒有機會表達呢通通都沒有啊那現在這樣狀況好了\n486080\t508166\t才化法看起來多拿了300億那可是現在中央沒有錢啊好 我也可以說中央你就是把這個錢全部都要補足對 社福跟人民很相關一定要補足但雞蛋裡面的籃子裡面的雞蛋就是這麼多個你一樣拿了這些雞蛋走了之後那誰沒有雞蛋可能我們就沒有辦法買潛艦啊可能沒有辦法買飛機啊就這麼簡單嘛因為籃子裡面的雞蛋數是一定的啊\n513007\t536178\t這就是今天的狀況嘛所以部長我其實這段發言是有點感慨啦因為也已經講了慷慨激揚的講了這個半年多一年多了也已經講到累了我相信今天這個朱經天喔我看你其實是在去年的12月這個財化法修正通過的時候12月27號你去年的12月27號你就第一次就是說\n537198\t542722\t才化法三讀要刪除283.5億然後就可能會影響到租屋補貼你那時候就說了嘛那現在的話我們身為民意代表我們一樣要求啦我們還是要求進到人民口袋的錢不能少不管你們怎麼協調一定要不能少啦這是我們要求的第一點啦\n556932\t571327\t不管是之後你是不是可以再譬如說提追加預算行政院提追加預算啊或者想窮盡任何的方法反正籠子是別人捅的但是想辦法要補破網還是我們的工作啦就是行政權現在也還是在你這裡嘛但\n572388\t582013\t希望部長能夠盡力的把這個事情的問題再次的說明給大家聽冤有頭債有主今天的問題到底是從何而來就是從這個沒有討論配套的財政收支劃分法亂修之後所形成的狀況這個是我們在這裡利用今天的時局時間\n597912\t604538\t真的是很沉痛再講一次因為我相信這不會是因為這不是第一件也不會是最後一件接下來還會有非常非常多件這種社福預算會受到影響的狀況部長我這樣理解應該是正確吧是的也謝謝蘇委員的關心因為長久以來我們都知道這個租金補貼的政策沒有政黨也沒有中央地方之分是但是\n619651\t639148\t巧婦難為無米之炊我們沒有錢就是沒有錢那所以我們會希望說地方政府如果可以幫忙分攤的話這個分攤比例的原則那我們大概會是要依照行政院的主計總署看有沒有在新的財政收支劃分法通過之後他有新的設算原則來請地方政府能夠配合\n640229\t667241\t但是我們不希望影響到尤其是明年度開始今年度還是按照原來的舊的方式來執行明年度開始的時候不要影響到要申請的這些年輕人租金補貼的政策因為大一部分蘇委員所提的沒有錯大一部分申請租金補貼最多的就是落在六都新北市當然有十幾萬戶我看到了包括台北市、桃園市、台中市台中市相當的多\n668221\t681191\t在戶數可能是最多的部分13萬戶所以我們很希望說在按照這樣戶數的比例之下可以共同來分攤因為六都裡面如果按照舊的行政院的這個主計處的財力分攤的話新北市是要負擔30%\n685894\t695457\t那台北市是負擔40%但是這個有沒有轉圜的餘地的話我們就依這個行政院主計出來不考而設我們如果要討論剛剛有說討論事情其實就是應該連配套一次想好這才是我們做事的風格嘛好那如果是這樣的話既然新的財化法已經修正上路了已經通過開始施行了那現在的財力負擔的這個分級表是不是也應該要重新檢討\n710362\t730594\t因為現在各個縣市拿的狀況不一樣了啊這次的修法很多地方因為他的委員之前在國會叫囂的比較大聲他的縣市拿比較多那是不是換我們這個當時人均最少的新北我們反而應該是要可以怎麼怎麼調整我們是不是他的財力負擔其實也應該怎麼調整不然的話我現在看我們負擔最大的人反而應該要負最多\n739219\t764142\t我也覺得這蠻奇怪的啊這個像台北市這麼有錢對不對這個要怎麼去討論每一個縣市當然都會有它的優點和這個不足之處台北市當然也有它的困境但我覺得這整體來講新的標準應該怎麼討論這個可能請部長在尊政要推行的時候這個也必須要重新思考一下我們會把這些意見反映給主計總處\n764963\t770955\t因為有關於財稅的這個籌款的比例的原則的話是主計總數做最後的定案好 謝謝副長好 謝謝蘇曉輝委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們請劉部長劉部長也請部員早 部長好齁 部長那今天雖然是要先講這個公寓大廈的公社典交正業不過我還是想就昨天的新聞來就部長請教我想昨天的一個大家很關心的新聞是\n我們推行多年中央補助的這個租金補貼那深受好評你可以看得到這個300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案其實租金補貼專案是一年一年跟因為\n申請的人越來越多所以中央政府也越推越大越推越廣金額持續的加碼所以可以看到人數人數的部分對不對我們其實是一直往上增加不管是在決算金額或受益戶數都一直上升可是昨天看到這個新聞是說因為\n這個才化法修正其實應該是說我們從報紙上面看到這個未來從明年開始中央可能不再全額補助而希望各地方縣市政府能夠有不擔自籌的部分所以地方縣市政府都跳腳部長這是怎麼回事\n報告委員原則上是這樣子因為內政部的國土署在6月12的時候有發函那是因為六都裡面有五都在籌編預概算的人要求我們國土署是否可以告訴他們明年度他們的預算裡面要不要把租金補貼的這個分擔比例\n放到他們在地方縣市政府的預算裡面所以我們國土署就發了一個公文過去那這個當然是一個通案的原則所謂的通案的原則就是說因為在111年之前本來在租金補貼的部分當時就是有中央跟地方政府按照他的這個這個財力的分級\n來做負擔的比例但是到111年的時候因為當時的行政院長他有提到那因為中央的稅收比較多所以願意幫地方政府來負擔他們應該負擔的比例所以過去兩三年以來呢都是由中央來全額負擔那我們是放在住宅基金裡面那他的撥補如果不夠的話呢是由行政院撥補到這個住宅基金這第一個先跟委員報告\n那從明年開始因為財政收支劃分法在今年三月已經對外三讀通過跟公告所以明年開始中央政府的收入會減少那地方政府的收入會增加所以我們希望地方政府在籌編\n明年的預算的時候的比率上面是否可以恢復原來的這個財力的分級的部分呢把它編列到地方政府裡面去那這裡面呢也可以跟委員報告一下其實今年開始啊有關租金補貼申請的時候它的審查就是在地方政府\n那中央只是說就有一些資訊錯誤或是抽查做比例所以申請的戶數是84萬戶可是通過的戶數是72萬戶那當然其中六都市最多的部分所以我們是按照這樣的方式也就是依照新的財政收支劃分法在明年地方\n制度上面必須要配合的住宅政策也就是租金補貼政策的時候希望地方縣市政府在籌編也可以把這個納為籌編的預算的項目之一好 謝謝部長 部長說得很清楚那我也給您完整的時間那我們再逐個簡化一點來講因為這個題目您剛剛說到的111年起由中央全額補助這時候我也已經在立法院了我記得這個過程是這樣\n租金我們台灣人自己要住房子有時候沒有辦法買馬上買的時候我們都去租租的時候如果國家能夠給我一點更多的補貼補助對我們的幫忙其實是很大的所以租金的補貼大家都覺得應該要做\n好到了111年的時候呢有兩件事情第一個就是當時的財政好國家的稅收多所以按照過去的狀況中央政府有預渡這是第一個中央政府有預渡財政好第二個是因為我們當年在國會質詢的時候我們一直有一個想法各種社福資源\n全體國民不應該區分他居住在哪一個縣市不管是育兒津貼也好或者是生產津貼也好甚至是包括這些各式各樣的社福津貼不應該因為你居住的縣市不同而有不同的待遇所以如果是統一性的社福政策能夠由中央\n一次來統一那麼你住在任何一個地方都收到一樣的保障一樣的待遇我們當時都認為這樣是好的是對的所以都贊同了這樣的政策由中央來全部執行全部補貼數而統一我們是這樣子的想法也做了這麼多年看起來剛剛看到大家這樣的數字決算數字還有這個戶數申請一年比一年多就知道這是一個好的政策而且大家越來越習慣越來越受歡迎\n所以我們當然希望他能夠執行啊而且在這個執行的過程中最最重要的人民不會分你是中央還是地方啦最重要的是這個補助的金額不能少然後會入到我的口袋裡面來就是這麼簡單而已嘛好所以結論我們是希望補貼的錢不要少那麼來了問題來了那麼現在到底中央和地方政府要照\n111年前的分法中央負擔一部分地方負擔一部分那甚至地方你還可以決定你到底要加多少等等的嗎這是一種嗎還是是全部繼續由中央買單如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望地方縣市政府當然我如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望中央全額買單啊不用我出錢當然好啊我是來自地方的我當然希望我的錢越多越好\n尤其是你看看我們如果台北市跟新北市補的話其實在新北得到租屋補貼的戶數超過10萬戶台北只有6萬戶可見得我新北需要的比較多啊那可是相對來講如果要地方縣市政府負擔的話新北市政府負擔的就比較多啊\n你看同樣6萬戶跟10萬戶我們兩個負擔起來怎麼都是18億那可是回過頭來在這個統籌分配款這個財化法新修正之後台北市有沒有拿的比我多有啊那這樣子的話我們新北一樣拿最少為什麼我還是負擔這個比例呢所以這些事情這些細節坦白講當時在財化法修正的時候有沒有討論到沒有嘛\n就是沒有啊我們再說一次我們從來不反對才化法修正民進黨甚至包括我蘇巧慧我從不反對才化法修正我也支持地方可以得到更多的預算但是我們反對的是當時在這個過程當中你只喊一個數字接下來像這種社福的部分到底是誰應該負擔多少\n我現在新北如果負擔這個乘數的話跟其他縣市比 比如說跟台北市比這樣負擔的乘數公平嗎我覺得不公平啊 對不對那我有沒有機會表達呢通通都沒有啊那現在這樣狀況好了\n才化法看起來多拿了300億那可是現在中央沒有錢啊好 我也可以說中央你就是把這個錢全部都要補足對 社福跟人民很相關一定要補足但雞蛋裡面的籃子裡面的雞蛋就是這麼多個你一樣拿了這些雞蛋走了之後那誰沒有雞蛋可能我們就沒有辦法買潛艦啊可能沒有辦法買飛機啊就這麼簡單嘛因為籃子裡面的雞蛋數是一定的啊\n這就是今天的狀況嘛所以部長我其實這段發言是有點感慨啦因為也已經講了慷慨激揚的講了這個半年多一年多了也已經講到累了我相信今天這個朱經天喔我看你其實是在去年的12月這個財化法修正通過的時候12月27號你去年的12月27號你就第一次就是說\n才化法三讀要刪除283.5億然後就可能會影響到租屋補貼你那時候就說了嘛那現在的話我們身為民意代表我們一樣要求啦我們還是要求進到人民口袋的錢不能少不管你們怎麼協調一定要不能少啦這是我們要求的第一點啦\n不管是之後你是不是可以再譬如說提追加預算行政院提追加預算啊或者想窮盡任何的方法反正籠子是別人捅的但是想辦法要補破網還是我們的工作啦就是行政權現在也還是在你這裡嘛但\n希望部長能夠盡力的把這個事情的問題再次的說明給大家聽冤有頭債有主今天的問題到底是從何而來就是從這個沒有討論配套的財政收支劃分法亂修之後所形成的狀況這個是我們在這裡利用今天的時局時間\n真的是很沉痛再講一次因為我相信這不會是因為這不是第一件也不會是最後一件接下來還會有非常非常多件這種社福預算會受到影響的狀況部長我這樣理解應該是正確吧是的也謝謝蘇委員的關心因為長久以來我們都知道這個租金補貼的政策沒有政黨也沒有中央地方之分是但是\n巧婦難為無米之炊我們沒有錢就是沒有錢那所以我們會希望說地方政府如果可以幫忙分攤的話這個分攤比例的原則那我們大概會是要依照行政院的主計總署看有沒有在新的財政收支劃分法通過之後他有新的設算原則來請地方政府能夠配合\n但是我們不希望影響到尤其是明年度開始今年度還是按照原來的舊的方式來執行明年度開始的時候不要影響到要申請的這些年輕人租金補貼的政策因為大一部分蘇委員所提的沒有錯大一部分申請租金補貼最多的就是落在六都新北市當然有十幾萬戶我看到了包括台北市、桃園市、台中市台中市相當的多\n在戶數可能是最多的部分13萬戶所以我們很希望說在按照這樣戶數的比例之下可以共同來分攤因為六都裡面如果按照舊的行政院的這個主計處的財力分攤的話新北市是要負擔30%\n那台北市是負擔40%但是這個有沒有轉圜的餘地的話我們就依這個行政院主計出來不考而設我們如果要討論剛剛有說討論事情其實就是應該連配套一次想好這才是我們做事的風格嘛好那如果是這樣的話既然新的財化法已經修正上路了已經通過開始施行了那現在的財力負擔的這個分級表是不是也應該要重新檢討\n因為現在各個縣市拿的狀況不一樣了啊這次的修法很多地方因為他的委員之前在國會叫囂的比較大聲他的縣市拿比較多那是不是換我們這個當時人均最少的新北我們反而應該是要可以怎麼怎麼調整我們是不是他的財力負擔其實也應該怎麼調整不然的話我現在看我們負擔最大的人反而應該要負最多\n我也覺得這蠻奇怪的啊這個像台北市這麼有錢對不對這個要怎麼去討論每一個縣市當然都會有它的優點和這個不足之處台北市當然也有它的困境但我覺得這整體來講新的標準應該怎麼討論這個可能請部長在尊政要推行的時候這個也必須要重新思考一下我們會把這些意見反映給主計總處\n因為有關於財稅的這個籌款的比例的原則的話是主計總數做最後的定案好 謝謝副長好 謝謝蘇曉輝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.476 --> 00:34.229\n好謝謝主席我們請劉部長劉部長也請部員早部長好齁部長那今天雖然是要先講這個公寓大廈的公社典交正業不過我還是想就昨天的新聞來就部長請教我想昨天的一個大家很關心的新聞是\n\n00:35.129 --> 00:39.151\n我們推行多年中央補助的這個租金補貼那深受好評你可以看得到這個300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案其實租金補貼專案是一年一年跟因為\n\n00:52.136 --> 01:09.726\n申請的人越來越多所以中央政府也越推越大越推越廣金額持續的加碼所以可以看到人數人數的部分對不對我們其實是一直往上增加不管是在決算金額或受益戶數都一直上升可是昨天看到這個新聞是說因為\n\n01:13.689 --> 01:31.362\n這個才化法修正其實應該是說我們從報紙上面看到這個未來從明年開始中央可能不再全額補助而希望各地方縣市政府能夠有不擔自籌的部分所以地方縣市政府都跳腳部長這是怎麼回事\n\n01:33.564 --> 01:51.562\n報告委員原則上是這樣子因為內政部的國土署在6月12的時候有發函那是因為六都裡面有五都在籌編預概算的人要求我們國土署是否可以告訴他們明年度他們的預算裡面要不要把租金補貼的這個分擔比例\n\n01:53.985 --> 02:15.578\n放到他們在地方縣市政府的預算裡面所以我們國土署就發了一個公文過去那這個當然是一個通案的原則所謂的通案的原則就是說因為在111年之前本來在租金補貼的部分當時就是有中央跟地方政府按照他的這個這個財力的分級\n\n02:18.380 --> 02:44.902\n來做負擔的比例但是到111年的時候因為當時的行政院長他有提到那因為中央的稅收比較多所以願意幫地方政府來負擔他們應該負擔的比例所以過去兩三年以來呢都是由中央來全額負擔那我們是放在住宅基金裡面那他的撥補如果不夠的話呢是由行政院撥補到這個住宅基金這第一個先跟委員報告\n\n02:45.783 --> 03:02.018\n那從明年開始因為財政收支劃分法在今年三月已經對外三讀通過跟公告所以明年開始中央政府的收入會減少那地方政府的收入會增加所以我們希望地方政府在籌編\n\n03:03.379 --> 03:22.481\n明年的預算的時候的比率上面是否可以恢復原來的這個財力的分級的部分呢把它編列到地方政府裡面去那這裡面呢也可以跟委員報告一下其實今年開始啊有關租金補貼申請的時候它的審查就是在地方政府\n\n03:23.181 --> 03:43.807\n那中央只是說就有一些資訊錯誤或是抽查做比例所以申請的戶數是84萬戶可是通過的戶數是72萬戶那當然其中六都市最多的部分所以我們是按照這樣的方式也就是依照新的財政收支劃分法在明年地方\n\n03:44.167 --> 04:09.539\n制度上面必須要配合的住宅政策也就是租金補貼政策的時候希望地方縣市政府在籌編也可以把這個納為籌編的預算的項目之一好謝謝部長部長說得很清楚那我也給您完整的時間那我們再逐個簡化一點來講因為這個題目您剛剛說到的111年起由中央全額補助這時候我也已經在立法院了我記得這個過程是這樣\n\n04:11.480 --> 04:27.199\n租金我們台灣人自己要住房子有時候沒有辦法買馬上買的時候我們都去租租的時候如果國家能夠給我一點更多的補貼補助對我們的幫忙其實是很大的所以租金的補貼大家都覺得應該要做\n\n04:28.601 --> 04:42.207\n好到了111年的時候呢有兩件事情第一個就是當時的財政好國家的稅收多所以按照過去的狀況中央政府有預渡這是第一個中央政府有預渡財政好第二個是因為我們當年在國會質詢的時候我們一直有一個想法各種社福資源\n\n04:53.411 --> 05:15.244\n全體國民不應該區分他居住在哪一個縣市不管是育兒津貼也好或者是生產津貼也好甚至是包括這些各式各樣的社福津貼不應該因為你居住的縣市不同而有不同的待遇所以如果是統一性的社福政策能夠由中央\n\n05:16.465 --> 05:27.390\n一次來統一那麼你住在任何一個地方都收到一樣的保障一樣的待遇我們當時都認為這樣是好的是對的所以都贊同了這樣的政策由中央來全部執行全部補貼數而統一我們是這樣子的想法也做了這麼多年看起來剛剛看到大家這樣的數字決算數字還有這個戶數申請一年比一年多就知道這是一個好的政策而且大家越來越習慣越來越受歡迎\n\n05:45.177 --> 06:08.586\n所以我們當然希望他能夠執行啊而且在這個執行的過程中最最重要的人民不會分你是中央還是地方啦最重要的是這個補助的金額不能少然後會入到我的口袋裡面來就是這麼簡單而已嘛好所以結論我們是希望補貼的錢不要少那麼來了問題來了那麼現在到底中央和地方政府要照\n\n06:10.546 --> 06:36.352\n111年前的分法中央負擔一部分地方負擔一部分那甚至地方你還可以決定你到底要加多少等等的嗎這是一種嗎還是是全部繼續由中央買單如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望地方縣市政府當然我如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望中央全額買單啊不用我出錢當然好啊我是來自地方的我當然希望我的錢越多越好\n\n06:36.972 --> 06:45.558\n尤其是你看看我們如果台北市跟新北市補的話其實在新北得到租屋補貼的戶數超過10萬戶台北只有6萬戶可見得我新北需要的比較多啊那可是相對來講如果要地方縣市政府負擔的話新北市政府負擔的就比較多啊\n\n06:57.367 --> 07:20.477\n你看同樣6萬戶跟10萬戶我們兩個負擔起來怎麼都是18億那可是回過頭來在這個統籌分配款這個財化法新修正之後台北市有沒有拿的比我多有啊那這樣子的話我們新北一樣拿最少為什麼我還是負擔這個比例呢所以這些事情這些細節坦白講當時在財化法修正的時候有沒有討論到沒有嘛\n\n07:23.098 --> 07:47.003\n就是沒有啊我們再說一次我們從來不反對才化法修正民進黨甚至包括我蘇巧慧我從不反對才化法修正我也支持地方可以得到更多的預算但是我們反對的是當時在這個過程當中你只喊一個數字接下來像這種社福的部分到底是誰應該負擔多少\n\n07:49.127 --> 07:57.053\n我現在新北如果負擔這個乘數的話跟其他縣市比比如說跟台北市比這樣負擔的乘數公平嗎我覺得不公平啊對不對那我有沒有機會表達呢通通都沒有啊那現在這樣狀況好了\n\n08:06.080 --> 08:28.166\n才化法看起來多拿了300億那可是現在中央沒有錢啊好我也可以說中央你就是把這個錢全部都要補足對社福跟人民很相關一定要補足但雞蛋裡面的籃子裡面的雞蛋就是這麼多個你一樣拿了這些雞蛋走了之後那誰沒有雞蛋可能我們就沒有辦法買潛艦啊可能沒有辦法買飛機啊就這麼簡單嘛因為籃子裡面的雞蛋數是一定的啊\n\n08:33.007 --> 08:56.178\n這就是今天的狀況嘛所以部長我其實這段發言是有點感慨啦因為也已經講了慷慨激揚的講了這個半年多一年多了也已經講到累了我相信今天這個朱經天喔我看你其實是在去年的12月這個財化法修正通過的時候12月27號你去年的12月27號你就第一次就是說\n\n08:57.198 --> 09:02.722\n才化法三讀要刪除283.5億然後就可能會影響到租屋補貼你那時候就說了嘛那現在的話我們身為民意代表我們一樣要求啦我們還是要求進到人民口袋的錢不能少不管你們怎麼協調一定要不能少啦這是我們要求的第一點啦\n\n09:16.932 --> 09:31.327\n不管是之後你是不是可以再譬如說提追加預算行政院提追加預算啊或者想窮盡任何的方法反正籠子是別人捅的但是想辦法要補破網還是我們的工作啦就是行政權現在也還是在你這裡嘛但\n\n09:32.388 --> 09:42.013\n希望部長能夠盡力的把這個事情的問題再次的說明給大家聽冤有頭債有主今天的問題到底是從何而來就是從這個沒有討論配套的財政收支劃分法亂修之後所形成的狀況這個是我們在這裡利用今天的時局時間\n\n09:57.912 --> 10:04.538\n真的是很沉痛再講一次因為我相信這不會是因為這不是第一件也不會是最後一件接下來還會有非常非常多件這種社福預算會受到影響的狀況部長我這樣理解應該是正確吧是的也謝謝蘇委員的關心因為長久以來我們都知道這個租金補貼的政策沒有政黨也沒有中央地方之分是但是\n\n10:19.651 --> 10:39.148\n巧婦難為無米之炊我們沒有錢就是沒有錢那所以我們會希望說地方政府如果可以幫忙分攤的話這個分攤比例的原則那我們大概會是要依照行政院的主計總署看有沒有在新的財政收支劃分法通過之後他有新的設算原則來請地方政府能夠配合\n\n10:40.229 --> 11:07.241\n但是我們不希望影響到尤其是明年度開始今年度還是按照原來的舊的方式來執行明年度開始的時候不要影響到要申請的這些年輕人租金補貼的政策因為大一部分蘇委員所提的沒有錯大一部分申請租金補貼最多的就是落在六都新北市當然有十幾萬戶我看到了包括台北市、桃園市、台中市台中市相當的多\n\n11:08.221 --> 11:21.191\n在戶數可能是最多的部分13萬戶所以我們很希望說在按照這樣戶數的比例之下可以共同來分攤因為六都裡面如果按照舊的行政院的這個主計處的財力分攤的話新北市是要負擔30%\n\n11:25.894 --> 11:35.457\n那台北市是負擔40%但是這個有沒有轉圜的餘地的話我們就依這個行政院主計出來不考而設我們如果要討論剛剛有說討論事情其實就是應該連配套一次想好這才是我們做事的風格嘛好那如果是這樣的話既然新的財化法已經修正上路了已經通過開始施行了那現在的財力負擔的這個分級表是不是也應該要重新檢討\n\n11:50.362 --> 12:10.594\n因為現在各個縣市拿的狀況不一樣了啊這次的修法很多地方因為他的委員之前在國會叫囂的比較大聲他的縣市拿比較多那是不是換我們這個當時人均最少的新北我們反而應該是要可以怎麼怎麼調整我們是不是他的財力負擔其實也應該怎麼調整不然的話我現在看我們負擔最大的人反而應該要負最多\n\n12:19.219 --> 12:44.142\n我也覺得這蠻奇怪的啊這個像台北市這麼有錢對不對這個要怎麼去討論每一個縣市當然都會有它的優點和這個不足之處台北市當然也有它的困境但我覺得這整體來講新的標準應該怎麼討論這個可能請部長在尊政要推行的時候這個也必須要重新思考一下我們會把這些意見反映給主計總處\n\n12:44.963 --> 12:50.955\n因為有關於財稅的這個籌款的比例的原則的話是主計總數做最後的定案好謝謝副長好謝謝蘇曉輝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.476,"end":34.229,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請劉部長劉部長也請部員早 部長好齁 部長那今天雖然是要先講這個公寓大廈的公社典交正業不過我還是想就昨天的新聞來就部長請教我想昨天的一個大家很關心的新聞是"},{"start":35.129,"end":39.151,"text":"我們推行多年中央補助的這個租金補貼那深受好評你可以看得到這個300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案其實租金補貼專案是一年一年跟因為"},{"start":52.136,"end":69.726,"text":"申請的人越來越多所以中央政府也越推越大越推越廣金額持續的加碼所以可以看到人數人數的部分對不對我們其實是一直往上增加不管是在決算金額或受益戶數都一直上升可是昨天看到這個新聞是說因為"},{"start":73.689,"end":91.362,"text":"這個才化法修正其實應該是說我們從報紙上面看到這個未來從明年開始中央可能不再全額補助而希望各地方縣市政府能夠有不擔自籌的部分所以地方縣市政府都跳腳部長這是怎麼回事"},{"start":93.564,"end":111.562,"text":"報告委員原則上是這樣子因為內政部的國土署在6月12的時候有發函那是因為六都裡面有五都在籌編預概算的人要求我們國土署是否可以告訴他們明年度他們的預算裡面要不要把租金補貼的這個分擔比例"},{"start":113.985,"end":135.578,"text":"放到他們在地方縣市政府的預算裡面所以我們國土署就發了一個公文過去那這個當然是一個通案的原則所謂的通案的原則就是說因為在111年之前本來在租金補貼的部分當時就是有中央跟地方政府按照他的這個這個財力的分級"},{"start":138.38,"end":164.902,"text":"來做負擔的比例但是到111年的時候因為當時的行政院長他有提到那因為中央的稅收比較多所以願意幫地方政府來負擔他們應該負擔的比例所以過去兩三年以來呢都是由中央來全額負擔那我們是放在住宅基金裡面那他的撥補如果不夠的話呢是由行政院撥補到這個住宅基金這第一個先跟委員報告"},{"start":165.783,"end":182.018,"text":"那從明年開始因為財政收支劃分法在今年三月已經對外三讀通過跟公告所以明年開始中央政府的收入會減少那地方政府的收入會增加所以我們希望地方政府在籌編"},{"start":183.379,"end":202.481,"text":"明年的預算的時候的比率上面是否可以恢復原來的這個財力的分級的部分呢把它編列到地方政府裡面去那這裡面呢也可以跟委員報告一下其實今年開始啊有關租金補貼申請的時候它的審查就是在地方政府"},{"start":203.181,"end":223.807,"text":"那中央只是說就有一些資訊錯誤或是抽查做比例所以申請的戶數是84萬戶可是通過的戶數是72萬戶那當然其中六都市最多的部分所以我們是按照這樣的方式也就是依照新的財政收支劃分法在明年地方"},{"start":224.167,"end":249.539,"text":"制度上面必須要配合的住宅政策也就是租金補貼政策的時候希望地方縣市政府在籌編也可以把這個納為籌編的預算的項目之一好 謝謝部長 部長說得很清楚那我也給您完整的時間那我們再逐個簡化一點來講因為這個題目您剛剛說到的111年起由中央全額補助這時候我也已經在立法院了我記得這個過程是這樣"},{"start":251.48,"end":267.199,"text":"租金我們台灣人自己要住房子有時候沒有辦法買馬上買的時候我們都去租租的時候如果國家能夠給我一點更多的補貼補助對我們的幫忙其實是很大的所以租金的補貼大家都覺得應該要做"},{"start":268.601,"end":282.207,"text":"好到了111年的時候呢有兩件事情第一個就是當時的財政好國家的稅收多所以按照過去的狀況中央政府有預渡這是第一個中央政府有預渡財政好第二個是因為我們當年在國會質詢的時候我們一直有一個想法各種社福資源"},{"start":293.411,"end":315.244,"text":"全體國民不應該區分他居住在哪一個縣市不管是育兒津貼也好或者是生產津貼也好甚至是包括這些各式各樣的社福津貼不應該因為你居住的縣市不同而有不同的待遇所以如果是統一性的社福政策能夠由中央"},{"start":316.465,"end":327.39,"text":"一次來統一那麼你住在任何一個地方都收到一樣的保障一樣的待遇我們當時都認為這樣是好的是對的所以都贊同了這樣的政策由中央來全部執行全部補貼數而統一我們是這樣子的想法也做了這麼多年看起來剛剛看到大家這樣的數字決算數字還有這個戶數申請一年比一年多就知道這是一個好的政策而且大家越來越習慣越來越受歡迎"},{"start":345.177,"end":368.586,"text":"所以我們當然希望他能夠執行啊而且在這個執行的過程中最最重要的人民不會分你是中央還是地方啦最重要的是這個補助的金額不能少然後會入到我的口袋裡面來就是這麼簡單而已嘛好所以結論我們是希望補貼的錢不要少那麼來了問題來了那麼現在到底中央和地方政府要照"},{"start":370.546,"end":396.352,"text":"111年前的分法中央負擔一部分地方負擔一部分那甚至地方你還可以決定你到底要加多少等等的嗎這是一種嗎還是是全部繼續由中央買單如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望地方縣市政府當然我如果我是地方縣市政府我當然希望中央全額買單啊不用我出錢當然好啊我是來自地方的我當然希望我的錢越多越好"},{"start":396.972,"end":405.558,"text":"尤其是你看看我們如果台北市跟新北市補的話其實在新北得到租屋補貼的戶數超過10萬戶台北只有6萬戶可見得我新北需要的比較多啊那可是相對來講如果要地方縣市政府負擔的話新北市政府負擔的就比較多啊"},{"start":417.367,"end":440.477,"text":"你看同樣6萬戶跟10萬戶我們兩個負擔起來怎麼都是18億那可是回過頭來在這個統籌分配款這個財化法新修正之後台北市有沒有拿的比我多有啊那這樣子的話我們新北一樣拿最少為什麼我還是負擔這個比例呢所以這些事情這些細節坦白講當時在財化法修正的時候有沒有討論到沒有嘛"},{"start":443.098,"end":467.003,"text":"就是沒有啊我們再說一次我們從來不反對才化法修正民進黨甚至包括我蘇巧慧我從不反對才化法修正我也支持地方可以得到更多的預算但是我們反對的是當時在這個過程當中你只喊一個數字接下來像這種社福的部分到底是誰應該負擔多少"},{"start":469.127,"end":477.053,"text":"我現在新北如果負擔這個乘數的話跟其他縣市比 比如說跟台北市比這樣負擔的乘數公平嗎我覺得不公平啊 對不對那我有沒有機會表達呢通通都沒有啊那現在這樣狀況好了"},{"start":486.08,"end":508.166,"text":"才化法看起來多拿了300億那可是現在中央沒有錢啊好 我也可以說中央你就是把這個錢全部都要補足對 社福跟人民很相關一定要補足但雞蛋裡面的籃子裡面的雞蛋就是這麼多個你一樣拿了這些雞蛋走了之後那誰沒有雞蛋可能我們就沒有辦法買潛艦啊可能沒有辦法買飛機啊就這麼簡單嘛因為籃子裡面的雞蛋數是一定的啊"},{"start":513.007,"end":536.178,"text":"這就是今天的狀況嘛所以部長我其實這段發言是有點感慨啦因為也已經講了慷慨激揚的講了這個半年多一年多了也已經講到累了我相信今天這個朱經天喔我看你其實是在去年的12月這個財化法修正通過的時候12月27號你去年的12月27號你就第一次就是說"},{"start":537.198,"end":542.722,"text":"才化法三讀要刪除283.5億然後就可能會影響到租屋補貼你那時候就說了嘛那現在的話我們身為民意代表我們一樣要求啦我們還是要求進到人民口袋的錢不能少不管你們怎麼協調一定要不能少啦這是我們要求的第一點啦"},{"start":556.932,"end":571.327,"text":"不管是之後你是不是可以再譬如說提追加預算行政院提追加預算啊或者想窮盡任何的方法反正籠子是別人捅的但是想辦法要補破網還是我們的工作啦就是行政權現在也還是在你這裡嘛但"},{"start":572.388,"end":582.013,"text":"希望部長能夠盡力的把這個事情的問題再次的說明給大家聽冤有頭債有主今天的問題到底是從何而來就是從這個沒有討論配套的財政收支劃分法亂修之後所形成的狀況這個是我們在這裡利用今天的時局時間"},{"start":597.912,"end":604.538,"text":"真的是很沉痛再講一次因為我相信這不會是因為這不是第一件也不會是最後一件接下來還會有非常非常多件這種社福預算會受到影響的狀況部長我這樣理解應該是正確吧是的也謝謝蘇委員的關心因為長久以來我們都知道這個租金補貼的政策沒有政黨也沒有中央地方之分是但是"},{"start":619.651,"end":639.148,"text":"巧婦難為無米之炊我們沒有錢就是沒有錢那所以我們會希望說地方政府如果可以幫忙分攤的話這個分攤比例的原則那我們大概會是要依照行政院的主計總署看有沒有在新的財政收支劃分法通過之後他有新的設算原則來請地方政府能夠配合"},{"start":640.229,"end":667.241,"text":"但是我們不希望影響到尤其是明年度開始今年度還是按照原來的舊的方式來執行明年度開始的時候不要影響到要申請的這些年輕人租金補貼的政策因為大一部分蘇委員所提的沒有錯大一部分申請租金補貼最多的就是落在六都新北市當然有十幾萬戶我看到了包括台北市、桃園市、台中市台中市相當的多"},{"start":668.221,"end":681.191,"text":"在戶數可能是最多的部分13萬戶所以我們很希望說在按照這樣戶數的比例之下可以共同來分攤因為六都裡面如果按照舊的行政院的這個主計處的財力分攤的話新北市是要負擔30%"},{"start":685.894,"end":695.457,"text":"那台北市是負擔40%但是這個有沒有轉圜的餘地的話我們就依這個行政院主計出來不考而設我們如果要討論剛剛有說討論事情其實就是應該連配套一次想好這才是我們做事的風格嘛好那如果是這樣的話既然新的財化法已經修正上路了已經通過開始施行了那現在的財力負擔的這個分級表是不是也應該要重新檢討"},{"start":710.362,"end":730.594,"text":"因為現在各個縣市拿的狀況不一樣了啊這次的修法很多地方因為他的委員之前在國會叫囂的比較大聲他的縣市拿比較多那是不是換我們這個當時人均最少的新北我們反而應該是要可以怎麼怎麼調整我們是不是他的財力負擔其實也應該怎麼調整不然的話我現在看我們負擔最大的人反而應該要負最多"},{"start":739.219,"end":764.142,"text":"我也覺得這蠻奇怪的啊這個像台北市這麼有錢對不對這個要怎麼去討論每一個縣市當然都會有它的優點和這個不足之處台北市當然也有它的困境但我覺得這整體來講新的標準應該怎麼討論這個可能請部長在尊政要推行的時候這個也必須要重新思考一下我們會把這些意見反映給主計總處"},{"start":764.963,"end":770.955,"text":"因為有關於財稅的這個籌款的比例的原則的話是主計總數做最後的定案好 謝謝副長好 謝謝蘇曉輝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":211,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時21分）謝謝主席，請劉部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。部長，雖然今天議程所安排的專題是有關公寓大廈公設點交爭議，不過我還是想先就昨天大家都很關心的新聞來向部長請教，我們推行多年由中央補助的租金補貼政策深受好評，大家可以看到我們有個「300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案」，其實租金補貼專案是一年一年在執行的，因為申請的人越來越多，所以中央政府也越推越大、越推越廣，金額持續加碼，我們可以看到申請人數一直往上增加，不管是決算金額或受益戶數都是逐年上升的。可是昨天看到的新聞是說因為財劃法修正，其實應該是說我們從報紙上面看到的是從明年開始，中央可能不再全額補助，而希望各地方縣市政府能夠負擔自籌的部分，所以地方縣市政府都跳腳。部長，這是怎麼回事？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，原則上是這樣子的，內政部國土署在6月12日有發函，那是因為6都裡面有5都的籌編預概算人員要求我們國土署是否可以告訴他們，明年度他們要不要把租金補貼的分擔比例放到他們地方縣市政府的預算裡面，所以我們國土署就發了一個公文過去。這當然是一個通案原則，所謂的通案原則就是說，因為在111年之前的租金補貼，本來就是由中央跟地方政府按照財力的分級（五級）來做負擔的比例，但是到111年的時候，當時的行政院長有提到，因為中央的稅收比較多，所以願意幫地方政府來負擔他們應該負擔的比例，因此過去兩、三年以來都是由中央全額負擔，我們經費是放在住宅基金裡面，如果不夠的話，是由行政院撥補到這個住宅基金，這是第一個要先跟委員報告的。","因為財政收支劃分法在今年3月已經三讀通過及公告，所以明年開始中央政府的收入會減少，地方政府的收入會增加，所以我們希望地方政府在籌編明年預算的時候，在租金補貼的部分，可以恢復原來中央與地方依照財力分級分擔經費的方式，把所需費用編列到地方政府的預算裡面。也跟委員報告一下，其實今年開始，有關租金補貼申請的審查就是在地方政府，中央只是就資訊是否錯誤進行抽查，目前申請的戶數是84萬戶，通過的戶數是72萬戶，其中6都是最多的。所以我們是按照這樣的方式，也就是依照新的財政收支劃分法，在明年地方制度上面必須要配合的住宅政策，也就是租金補貼政策，希望地方縣市政府在籌編時，也可以把租金補貼納為籌編預算的項目之一。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝部長，部長說得很清楚，我也給您完整的時間來說明了。如果我們再簡化一點來講，針對這個題目，您剛剛說是從111年起由中央全額補助，這時候我也已經在立法院了，我記得那個過程是這樣的，租金，我們臺灣人自己要住房子，有時候沒有辦法馬上買房，所以就會先去租屋，租屋的時候，如果國家能夠給我更多的補貼、補助，對我們的幫忙其實是很大的，所以租金的補貼大家都覺得應該要做。","到了111年的時候，有兩件事情，第一個就是當時的財政好、國家的稅收多，所以按照過去的狀況，中央政府有預度，這是第一個，中央政府有預度、財政好。第二個，因為我們當年在國會質詢的時候一直有一個想法，各種社福資源的對象若是全體國民，就不應該區分他居住在哪一個縣市，不管是育兒津貼也好或是生產津貼也好，甚至包括這些各式各樣的社福津貼，不應該因為居住的縣市不同而有不同的待遇，如果統一性的社福政策能夠由中央來統一，那麼國人住在任何一個地方都能受到一樣的保障跟待遇，我們當時都認為這樣是好的、是對的，所以都贊同了這樣的政策，由中央來執行全部的補貼，而且數額統一，我們是這樣子的想法，也做了這麼多年。","從現在的數字看起來，包括決算數字及申請戶數都一年比一年多，就知道這是一個好的政策，而且大家越來越習慣，也越來越受歡迎，所以我們當然希望這個政策能夠繼續執行，而且在執行的過程中，人民不會分是中央還是地方，最重要的是這個補助的金額不能少，然後會入到我的口袋裡面來，就是這麼簡單而已嘛！所以結論是我們希望補貼的錢不要少，但問題來了，現在到底中央和地方政府要依照111年以前的作法，由中央負擔一部分、地方負擔一部分，甚至地方還可以決定到底要加多少等等的嗎？是要採取這種方式嗎？還是全部繼續由中央買單？如果我是地方縣市政府，當然希望中央全額買單啊！不用我出錢當然好啊！我是來自地方的，我當然希望我的錢越多越好。尤其是你看一下這張簡報資料，以臺北市跟新北市的補貼撥款戶來看，新北得到租屋補貼的戶數超過10萬戶，臺北只有6萬戶，可見新北需要的比較多，可是相對來講，如果要地方縣市政府負擔的話，新北市政府負擔的就比較多啊！撥款戶數分別是6萬戶跟10萬戶，但這兩個縣市負擔的金額怎麼都是18億？可是回過頭來，在統籌分配款部分，在財劃法新修正之後，臺北市有沒有拿的比新北多？有啊！這樣子的話，我們新北一樣拿最少，為什麼我還是負擔這個比例呢？","所以這些事情、這些細節，坦白講，當時在財劃法修正的時候有沒有討論到？沒有嘛！就是沒有啊！我們再說一次，我們從來不反對財劃法修正，民進黨，甚至包括我蘇巧慧，我從不反對財劃法修正，我也支持地方可以得到更多的預算，但是我們反對的是當時在這個過程當中只喊一個數字，接下來像這種社福的部分到底是誰應該負擔多少？如果以新北現在要負擔的這個成數來跟其他縣市相比，譬如跟臺北市比，這樣的負擔成數公平嗎？我覺得不公平啊！對不對？我有沒有機會表達呢？統統都沒有啊！現在這樣的狀況是財劃法修正後看起來多拿了300億，可是現在中央沒有錢啊！我也可以要求中央就是要把這個錢全部都要補足，社福跟人民很相關，一定要補足，但籃子裡面的雞蛋就是這麼多個，你拿了這些雞蛋之後，變成誰沒有雞蛋？我們可能就沒有辦法買潛艦、沒有辦法買飛機，就這麼簡單，因為籃子裡面的雞蛋數是固定的，這就是今天的狀況嘛！所以部長，其實我這段發言是有點感慨啦，因為慷慨激昂講了半年多、一年多了，也已經講到累了，我相信今天租屋津貼，我看你其實是在去年12月27號你第一次說財劃法三讀要刪除283.5億，可能會影響到租屋補貼，你那時候就說了嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在身為民意代表，我們一樣要求啦，我們還是要求進到人民口袋的錢不能少，不管你們怎麼協調，一定不能少啦，這是我們要求的第一點，不管之後你是不是比如可以請行政院提追加預算或者窮盡任何的方法，反正婁子是別人捅的，但是想辦法要補破網還是我們的工作，行政權現在也還是在你這裡嘛！但希望部長能夠盡力把這件事情的問題再次說明給大家聽，冤有頭、債有主，今天的問題到底從何而來？就是從沒有討論配套的財政收支劃分法亂修之後所形成的狀況，我們在這裡利用今天的質詢時間，真的很沉痛再講一次，因為我相信今天這不是第一件，也不會是最後一件，接下來還會有非常非常多件這種社福預算受到影響的狀況，部長，我這樣理解應該是正確吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，也謝謝蘇委員的關心，因為長久以來我們都知道租金補貼的政策，沒有政黨也沒有中央、地方之分。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是。"],["劉部長世芳：但是巧婦難為無米之炊，我們沒有錢就是沒有錢，所以我們會希望地方政府如果可以幫忙分攤的話，這個分攤比例的原則大概會是依照行政院主計總處看看有沒有在新的財政收支劃分法通過之後，有新的設算原則來請地方政府能夠配合，但是我們不希望影響到……尤其是明年度開始，今年度還是按照原來舊的方式來執行，明年度開始的時候租金補貼的政策不要影響到要申請的這些年輕人。因為蘇委員所提的沒有錯，很大一部分申請租金補貼最多的就是落在六都，新北市當然有十幾萬戶，我看到包括臺北市、桃園市、臺中市，臺中市相當的多，戶數可能是最多，有13萬戶，所以我們很希望在按照這樣戶數的比例之下可以共同來分攤，因為六都裡面如果按照舊的行政院主計總處財力分攤的話，新北市是要負擔30%，臺北市是負擔40%，但是這個有沒有轉圜的餘地，我們就依行政院主計總處公告的來處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我認為是這樣，我們如果要討論，剛剛有說，討論事情其實就是應該連配套一次想好，這才是我們做事的風格。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，如果是這樣的話，既然新的財劃法已經修正上路並通過開始施行了，現在的財力負擔分級表是不是也應該要重新檢討？因為現在各個縣市拿的狀況不一樣了，這次的修法很多地方因為它的委員之前在國會叫囂地比較大聲，他的縣市拿比較多，是不是我們當時人均最少的新北看可以怎麼調整？我們針對它的財力負擔是不是也應該看怎麼調整？不然的話，我現在看負擔最大的人反而應該要付最多，我覺得這也蠻奇怪的，像臺北市這麼有錢，對不對？這個要怎麼去討論？每一個縣市當然都會有它的優點和不足之處，臺北市當然也有它的困境，但我覺得整體來講，新的標準應該怎麼討論，可能請部長在真正要推行的時候也必須重新思考一下。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們會把這些意見反映給主計總處，因為有關於財稅籌款的比例原則是主計總處做最後的定案。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-26","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","黃建賓","李柏毅","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李坤城","謝龍介","黃國昌","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃健豪","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長就「公寓大廈公設點交爭議及其處理與預防作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、「住宅法」：(一)繼續審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法\n第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(三)繼續審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查\n委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)繼續審查委員賴士葆等17人\n擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、( 六) 繼續審查委員牛煦庭等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(八)繼續審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 九) 繼續審查委員羅智強等16 人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)繼續審查委\n員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十二)繼續審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具\n「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案、(十三)繼續審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部\n分條文修正草案」案、( 十四) 繼續審查委員李坤城等24 人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(十五)繼續審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)繼續審查委\n員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十七)繼續審查委員高金素梅等27人擬\n具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法\n第二條條文修正草案」案、(十九)繼續審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 繼續審查委員林倩綺等23 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(二十一)審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)審查委員\n陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、( 二十四) 審查委員許宇甄等20 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二十五)審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十六)審查委員\n林月琴等19人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十七)審查委員楊曜等22人擬具「住宅法\n第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二十八)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十五條\n及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(二十九)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(三十)審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十一)審查\n委員蘇巧慧等17 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 三十二) 審查委員羅明才等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十三)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「住宅法增訂第四條之\n一條文草案」案、(三十四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十九條及第二十條條\n文修正草案」案、(三十五)審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三\n十六)審查委員游顥等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十七)審查委員羅智強等\n16人擬具「住宅法第四十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(三十八)審查委員葉元之等19人擬\n具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案【進行專題報告及詢答，並宣讀住宅法第 ( 二十一) 案至第\n(三十八)案提案條文】","agenda_id":"1146201_00015"}}}