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{\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 57.564, \"end\": 57.584, \"score\": 0.094}, {\"word\": \"為\"}]}, {\"start\": 59.965, \"end\": 88.284, \"text\": \"從這個三七五減除開始工地放盈還有耕種有幾點這三項重要的土地改革政策目標就是希望能夠促進台灣的經濟發展那尤其是這個工地放盈的部分就希望讓實際耕種的這個農民能夠成為土地的所有權者而不是世世代代只能當電農我想藉由工地放盈也可以激發農業的生產效率同時我們可以改善農民的經濟狀況還有生活水平促進我們社會的穩定跟發展\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 59.965, \"end\": 60.225, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"七\", \"start\": 60.225, \"end\": 60.425, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 60.425, \"end\": 60.705, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 60.705, \"end\": 61.046, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 61.046, \"end\": 61.226, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 61.226, \"end\": 61.386, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 61.386, \"end\": 61.526, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 61.526, \"end\": 61.686, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": 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73.234, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"耕\", \"start\": 73.234, \"end\": 73.814, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 73.814, \"end\": 74.234, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 74.234, \"end\": 74.355, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 74.355, \"end\": 74.695, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 74.695, \"end\": 74.995, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 74.995, \"end\": 75.255, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 75.255, \"end\": 75.495, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 75.495, \"end\": 76.056, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 76.056, \"end\": 76.196, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 76.196, \"end\": 76.536, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 76.536, \"end\": 77.196, 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80.419, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 80.419, \"end\": 80.559, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 80.559, \"end\": 80.659, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 80.659, \"end\": 80.819, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"盈\", \"start\": 80.819, \"end\": 80.919, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 80.919, \"end\": 81.119, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 81.119, \"end\": 81.259, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 81.259, \"end\": 81.399, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"激\", \"start\": 81.399, \"end\": 82.06, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 82.06, \"end\": 82.38, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 82.38, \"end\": 82.66, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 82.66, \"end\": 82.82, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 82.82, \"end\": 83.281, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 83.281, \"end\": 83.621, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 83.621, \"end\": 83.701, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 83.701, \"end\": 83.821, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 83.821, \"end\": 83.961, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 83.961, \"end\": 84.101, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 84.101, \"end\": 84.421, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 84.421, \"end\": 84.541, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 84.541, \"end\": 85.222, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 85.222, \"end\": 85.342, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 85.342, \"end\": 85.462, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"活\", \"start\": 85.462, \"end\": 85.642, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 85.642, \"end\": 85.842, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 85.842, \"end\": 86.463, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"促\", \"start\": 86.463, \"end\": 86.803, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 86.803, \"end\": 87.143, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 87.143, \"end\": 87.363, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 87.363, \"end\": 87.643, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 87.643, \"end\": 87.804, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 87.804, \"end\": 88.264, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 88.264, \"end\": 88.284, \"score\": 0.997}]}, {\"start\": 88.984, \"end\": 110.801, \"text\": \"那我國中過去到現在工地放領大概可以分三個階段第一個階段就是從民國37年到65年實施的這個耕者有期田他希望目標能夠繁榮農村安定社會不過後來這項政策到了民國65年就停辦那第二個階段是民國78年專案辦理台中縣示範林場等三處的土地來放領\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 88.984, \"end\": 90.666, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 90.666, \"end\": 90.906, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 90.906, \"end\": 91.206, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 91.206, \"end\": 91.286, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 91.286, \"end\": 91.566, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 91.566, \"end\": 91.987, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 91.987, \"end\": 92.167, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 92.167, \"end\": 92.287, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 92.287, \"end\": 92.527, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 92.527, \"end\": 92.547, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 92.547, \"end\": 92.707, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 92.707, \"end\": 92.787, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 92.787, \"end\": 92.867, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 92.867, \"end\": 93.108, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 93.108, \"end\": 93.508, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"階\"}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 93.508, \"end\": 94.269, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 94.269, \"end\": 94.369, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 94.369, \"end\": 94.589, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"階\"}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 94.589, \"end\": 94.689, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 94.689, \"end\": 94.869, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 94.869, \"end\": 95.029, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 95.029, \"end\": 95.73, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 95.73, \"end\": 95.87, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 95.87, \"end\": 96.39, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 96.39, \"end\": 96.57, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 96.57, 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\"榮\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"村\", \"start\": 100.173, \"end\": 100.353, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 100.353, \"end\": 100.533, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 100.533, \"end\": 100.734, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 100.734, \"end\": 101.494, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 101.494, \"end\": 101.714, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 101.714, \"end\": 102.255, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 102.255, \"end\": 102.475, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 102.475, \"end\": 102.795, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 102.795, \"end\": 102.975, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 102.975, \"end\": 103.095, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 103.095, \"end\": 103.856, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 103.856, \"end\": 103.976, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 103.976, \"end\": 104.176, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 104.176, \"end\": 105.057, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 105.057, \"end\": 105.237, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 105.237, \"end\": 105.397, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 105.397, \"end\": 105.677, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"階\"}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 105.677, \"end\": 105.878, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 105.878, \"end\": 106.018, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 106.018, \"end\": 106.818, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 106.818, \"end\": 107.139, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 107.139, \"end\": 107.459, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 107.459, \"end\": 107.639, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 107.639, \"end\": 107.859, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 107.859, \"end\": 108.44, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 108.44, \"end\": 108.84, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 108.84, \"end\": 109.2, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 109.2, \"end\": 109.761, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 109.761, \"end\": 110.141, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 110.141, \"end\": 110.301, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 110.301, \"end\": 110.481, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 110.481, \"end\": 110.781, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 110.781, \"end\": 110.801, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"領\"}]}, {\"start\": 111.642, \"end\": 125.055, \"text\": \"第三個階段就是行政院在民國65年停辦公立放年之後有很多的民眾在抗議因為有許多還沒完成放年土地造成權力不公所以行政院在民國83年修正公有土地經營及處理原則\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 111.642, \"end\": 111.742, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 111.742, \"end\": 112.103, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"階\"}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 112.103, \"end\": 112.243, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 112.243, \"end\": 112.363, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 112.363, \"end\": 112.883, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 112.883, \"end\": 113.003, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 113.003, \"end\": 113.104, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 113.104, \"end\": 113.244, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 113.244, \"end\": 113.424, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 113.424, \"end\": 114.104, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 114.104, \"end\": 114.265, 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\"再\", \"start\": 143.983, \"end\": 144.363, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 144.363, \"end\": 144.564, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 144.564, \"end\": 144.724, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 144.724, \"end\": 145.264, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 145.264, \"end\": 145.384, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 145.384, \"end\": 145.524, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 145.524, \"end\": 145.864, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 145.864, \"end\": 146.284, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 146.284, \"end\": 146.444, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 146.444, \"end\": 146.544, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 146.544, \"end\": 146.684, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 146.684, \"end\": 146.804, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 146.804, \"end\": 146.965, \"score\": 0.632}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 146.965, \"end\": 147.285, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 147.285, \"end\": 147.885, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 147.885, \"end\": 148.125, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 148.125, \"end\": 148.385, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 148.385, \"end\": 148.565, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 148.565, \"end\": 148.585, \"score\": 0.066}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 148.585, \"end\": 148.945, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 148.945, \"end\": 149.065, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 149.065, \"end\": 149.085, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 150.566, \"end\": 178.66, \"text\": \"不過工地放領到現在大概20年的時間各地還是有許多的農民不斷的在表達希望中央能夠持續的來推動落實這個還地漁民的這個政策那內政部在95年的工地放領檢討報告裡面也有提到說他也反對政府停止辦理工地放領因為認為這樣對農民農民會對這個政府的信賴跟期待會落空甚至可能會引起反彈抗爭那如今看起來內政部當年這個擔心的事確實現在也在發生\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", 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756.401, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 756.401, \"end\": 756.582, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"斌\", \"start\": 756.582, \"end\": 756.702, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 756.702, \"end\": 756.842, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"斌\", \"start\": 756.842, \"end\": 756.982, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 756.982, \"end\": 757.002, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,017 --> 00:00:07,639\n謝謝主席謝謝我們請劉部長劉部長有請部長我們今天討論的是公寓大廈的這些問題不過本期這邊有另外一件跟土地爭議有關的議題也想要來跟部長就教那這個是最近台東縣許多農民非常關注的議題\n\n2\n00:00:33,919 --> 00:00:57,584\n我們上個月行政院大動作的宣布說要重啟工地放領的政策並且從那個宜蘭大南澳地區這個80公頃的台拓土地開始事辦那講這樣的聲音其實全國各地都有那這個是許多農民跨世代都在爭取的權益我想絕對不是侷限在特定的地區不過很一樣到現在我們沒有看到中央有更進一步的這些作為\n\n3\n00:00:59,965 --> 00:01:28,284\n從這個三七五減除開始工地放盈還有耕種有幾點這三項重要的土地改革政策目標就是希望能夠促進台灣的經濟發展那尤其是這個工地放盈的部分就希望讓實際耕種的這個農民能夠成為土地的所有權者而不是世世代代只能當電農我想藉由工地放盈也可以激發農業的生產效率同時我們可以改善農民的經濟狀況還有生活水平促進我們社會的穩定跟發展\n\n4\n00:01:28,984 --> 00:01:50,801\n那我國中過去到現在工地放領大概可以分三個階段第一個階段就是從民國37年到65年實施的這個耕者有期田他希望目標能夠繁榮農村安定社會不過後來這項政策到了民國65年就停辦那第二個階段是民國78年專案辦理台中縣示範林場等三處的土地來放領\n\n5\n00:01:51,642 --> 00:02:05,055\n第三個階段就是行政院在民國65年停辦公立放年之後有很多的民眾在抗議因為有許多還沒完成放年土地造成權力不公所以行政院在民國83年修正公有土地經營及處理原則\n\n6\n00:02:06,656 --> 00:02:29,085\n在符合一定的條件底下辦理放零不過後來因為921地震還有台師颱風等等的災害行政院基於這個國土保安及富裕的政策在民國94到97年之間逐步公告公有山坡地、平地耕地以及養殖用地不再辦理放零所以到現在公有土地全面已經全面停止辦理這個放零\n\n7\n00:02:30,566 --> 00:02:58,660\n不過工地放領到現在大概20年的時間各地還是有許多的農民不斷的在表達希望中央能夠持續的來推動落實這個還地漁民的這個政策那內政部在95年的工地放領檢討報告裡面也有提到說他也反對政府停止辦理工地放領因為認為這樣對農民農民會對這個政府的信賴跟期待會落空甚至可能會引起反彈抗爭那如今看起來內政部當年這個擔心的事確實現在也在發生\n\n8\n00:03:01,242 --> 00:03:07,806\n以台東縣為例台東縣三多比県少我們台東縣依據公有土地統計全台東縣有34.7萬公頃的土地其中公有地占了30.2萬就是我們台東的土地\n\n9\n00:03:15,431 --> 00:03:29,925\n公有地占了87%涉及的中央管理機關有財政部、國防部、交通部、經濟部、退府會、農業部、園民會還有台廠等國營企業這麼多的管理機關也會造成台中線土地複雜程度遠遠超過於西部\n\n10\n00:03:30,626 --> 00:03:47,261\n那有一些公共土地的使用甚至從他從光復的時光復前就一直延續到現在因為法令的限制但這長期實際在這個土地上耕作農民他只能不斷的繳租金卻無法擁有土地的所有權請記\n\n11\n00:03:49,423 --> 00:04:08,669\n他可能面臨甚至可能面臨在土地會被收回的狀況被迫拆遷那這樣的情況對這些農民情何以堪我想對於行政院宣布從宜蘭大南澳地區開始事辦公共土地放領我想這對很多所有管治的農民來說那都是對於工地放領都燃起了一線的希望\n\n12\n00:04:09,789 --> 00:04:31,939\n我們去年農業部有公告說我國的糧食積極率是30.3%創下18年最低蔬菜同樣也是創下10年來最低公有土地的放寧不僅可以讓農民有更大的動機投入心力改良的自有耕地也有機會提高我國的糧食積極率最重要的是可以解決這些土地長年以來的歷史糾紛\n\n13\n00:04:35,461 --> 00:05:04,470\n所以本集在這邊要具體的建議我想內政部是不是可以從宜蘭從宜蘭大南澳台拓土地工地放領為例開始檢視現行的工地放領工作的要點我們會計地方的意見進行後續的修正我想既然行政院都已經大動作的宣告要重啟工地放領的這個政策我想中央該一視同仁絕對不會因人設事也不是因地設事啊工地放領是由上而下的權責\n\n14\n00:05:05,310 --> 00:05:29,124\n我們中央不能把這些都帶到我們的地方建戶喔我想必須聽到我們基層的聲音我想內政部作為工地放領法規的這個主管機關更是責無旁貸那我想希望劉副長你能夠承諾在一個月內邀集相關的機關來研商重新來檢視我國工地放領這個政策還給實際耕作的農民這個公道實現我們的土地的正義沒錯\n\n15\n00:05:31,938 --> 00:05:49,928\n感謝黃委員的關心黃委員的關心是沒有錯其實有關工地放領的政策我們也多次跟行政院的院長報告所以才會有5月6號的時候行政院已經有合適有條件的放領國有土地但是是以平地耕地為主\n\n16\n00:05:50,788 --> 00:06:03,696\n那台東地區呢到目前為止呢我們所累計出來了以台東為主的部分在那個台東的這個工地放齡的平地耕地的這個放齡統計呢大約是608.84公頃那成都人的數目大概是752人那當然了這個裡面的條件就是要以民國65年以前\n\n17\n00:06:11,641 --> 00:06:23,605\n已經有租賃關係的部分黃委員非常清楚這裡面曾經有兩次是由行政院因為颱風的關係所以停止工地放領要重新評估所以我們從1948年開始到現在的2025年當中不管是專案放領或是補辦放領或是停辦放領或是三次重新評估放領的部分院長有指示\n\n18\n00:06:37,649 --> 00:07:01,043\n要全台灣有關於這個工地放領的部分全部重新來檢視那現在我們正邀集包括這個農業部也好或是包括財政部的這個國產署甚至包括那個教育部的台大實驗林這幾個有牽涉到這個工地放領的部分因為有的是平地耕地有的不是平地耕地那甚至有些是以前是漁權或者是農權的部分\n\n19\n00:07:03,144 --> 00:07:06,146\n全部要重新檢視但是我也要跟委員報告除了在散落在各個不同部會裡面的這個公文書之外我們現在最大的困擾就是剛剛委員有提到可能他在工地放領已經歷經兩代三代但是我們還是一樣如果他能夠保存當時他工地放領的相關的文件資料的話我們會根據文件資料的一個部分來處理有關工地放領的部分\n\n20\n00:07:31,266 --> 00:07:59,451\n那也就是說我們會依據行政院所說的當然先從大南澳的放領先開始那在處理的過程當中這程序上面有什麼困擾那我們也是陸陸續續在收集不同的意見當中那所以呢不管是工地放領或者是說其他的要回給他這是他自己應該有的這個權益的部分的話我們現在正是在努力的斟酌當中那有關工地放領的所需要的部分包括預概算\n\n21\n00:08:00,811 --> 00:08:30,023\n或者是包括我們要如何去確定我們當時的這個工地放嶺的時候它的這個公道地價或者是土地的價格這些呢我們正在盤點當中其實是非常努力但是因為試射太多所以也請這個委員了解這個狀況所以部長這邊是不是可以趕快我們在一個月內我們不可能馬上嘛我們一個月來先找相關的地方來談談像我提到的台東的土地太複雜撤棄的部分是多啊而且我們台東百分之八十七耶\n\n22\n00:08:30,723 --> 00:08:51,289\n整個關八十七八都是公有地那整個開發都是出的報告報告委員公有土地跟公地放領就是以公地耕地為主不太一樣我知道我的意思是說我的意思是說這些地是存在很久那台東的情況又跟西部我們了解你聽我說你也知道嘛我們台東八十七八都公有地跟西部的情況不一樣我的心理我的單位就多嘛\n\n23\n00:08:52,129 --> 00:09:08,389\n單位設計的單位是多嘛所以是由內政部來主導我們來邀請這相關部來討論接下來怎麼樣來推動這件事因為農民看到了宜蘭這件事情之後又重新燃起希望這種13代人的期待啊3代人的期待希望我們能夠來解決這件事情\n\n24\n00:09:08,909 --> 00:09:29,441\n報告委員內政部應該處理的方向就是我剛所說的我們已經邀請財政部農業部包括教育部相關跟工地放領有關的這個部門都在做統計當中而不是只是談一談那大概多久會有一個出乎的答案要再多給我們一點時間啦我們等個時間嘛等個時間我剛才跟委員報告我剛才講過他這裡所有的資料裡面有已經古了甚至有的是日本時代的文字\n\n25\n00:09:37,125 --> 00:09:46,748\n那這些東西我們如果沒有盤查清楚的話就直接對外宣布我想這樣對公務部門來講會有失公務部門應該有的公正氣我們已經有找過了因為院長已經指定我們要找這些不同的部會所以已經開過很多次會但是現在是在盤點公務部門跟你所說的據說當時想要再申請工地放你的人\n\n26\n00:10:04,554 --> 00:10:16,808\n阿他們的文件資料在不在阿他們所說的這個甚至阿十年前二十年前他的地樁正不正確這個我們都要去看如果出問題他的爭議要如何處理我們已經現在在處理這一塊\n\n27\n00:10:20,872 --> 00:10:25,695\n我們還是一樣,我們現在可能出列的也是一,平地的工地放寧為原則就是說自己手頭最有資金的,你不可以所有的公有土地全部放寧,怎麼會這樣啊?我們可以都刷很多,白頭就借啦,這個不必擔心像我們的阿祖早期在沙窟那裡睡覺,這個都在沙窟這裡\n\n28\n00:10:47,715 --> 00:10:56,800\n這樣跟委員報告,那個法律跟法令從這個1948到現在已經將近七八十年了那個那時候的法令的盤點還有適用範圍,我們還是要一一來檢視因為當一個政府部門,你本來就要取信於民,你不能說人質\n\n29\n00:11:09,087 --> 00:11:19,435\n東南區當時的法治的部分跟現在的法治的部分跟可以適用的到底在哪裡我們是很努力在看這些舊的這個文件資料啦但是還是要給我們一點時間啦\n\n30\n00:11:21,224 --> 00:11:40,178\n那會後我們是在持續來保持聯繫因為這件事情其實台東會相信董事長好不好就是如果那個委員有不同的想法或建議的話我會請我們的同仁到委員辦公室跟您說明一下現在的進度好不好那會後我們來請大辦公室來討論因為你是以台東為主啦是啊我們現在說的是全台灣的當然當然當然所以不一樣啦我們也是希望說台東的社交媒體可以通通聽到因為畢竟我一開始說的台東的情形跟西部是不一樣的\n\n31\n00:11:47,843 --> 00:12:11,079\n有關是地形也好跟什麼土匪也好都不太像所以學術的程度又比較多所以這一定要跟部長報告但是我也要跟委員報告目的事業的主管機關都不在內政部所以目的事業主管機關他們要點頭那當然還是由行政院的高度會來做這個所以用平常他的當時我們來政府是主要是我們來找來合調嘛因為牽涉的部會太多嘛\n\n32\n00:12:15,962 --> 00:12:37,002\n阿我們現在就在合調阿我們這次開了五遍以上的花啦跟委員謝謝感謝部長啦部長那個台中的鄉親真的期待很久啦我想你保育委員一直在看我這樣啦我說得快的沒關係啦沒有啦我為了請我們的董事才去跟委員請你台中所關心的部分幫你報告好不好謝謝部長謝謝承諾謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝黃金斌謝謝黃金斌委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5017\t7639\t謝謝主席 謝謝 我們請劉部長劉部長有請部長 我們今天討論的是公寓大廈的這些問題不過本期這邊有另外一件跟土地爭議有關的議題也想要來跟部長就教那這個是最近台東縣許多農民非常關注的議題\n33919\t57584\t我們上個月行政院大動作的宣布說要重啟工地放領的政策並且從那個宜蘭大南澳地區這個80公頃的台拓土地開始事辦那講這樣的聲音其實全國各地都有那這個是許多農民跨世代都在爭取的權益我想絕對不是侷限在特定的地區不過很一樣到現在我們沒有看到中央有更進一步的這些作為\n59965\t88284\t從這個三七五減除開始工地放盈還有耕種有幾點這三項重要的土地改革政策目標就是希望能夠促進台灣的經濟發展那尤其是這個工地放盈的部分就希望讓實際耕種的這個農民能夠成為土地的所有權者而不是世世代代只能當電農我想藉由工地放盈也可以激發農業的生產效率同時我們可以改善農民的經濟狀況還有生活水平促進我們社會的穩定跟發展\n88984\t110801\t那我國中過去到現在工地放領大概可以分三個階段第一個階段就是從民國37年到65年實施的這個耕者有期田他希望目標能夠繁榮農村安定社會不過後來這項政策到了民國65年就停辦那第二個階段是民國78年專案辦理台中縣示範林場等三處的土地來放領\n111642\t125055\t第三個階段就是行政院在民國65年停辦公立放年之後有很多的民眾在抗議因為有許多還沒完成放年土地造成權力不公所以行政院在民國83年修正公有土地經營及處理原則\n126656\t149085\t在符合一定的條件底下辦理放零不過後來因為921地震還有台師颱風等等的災害行政院基於這個國土保安及富裕的政策在民國94到97年之間逐步公告公有山坡地、平地耕地以及養殖用地不再辦理放零所以到現在公有土地全面已經全面停止辦理這個放零\n150566\t178660\t不過工地放領到現在大概20年的時間各地還是有許多的農民不斷的在表達希望中央能夠持續的來推動落實這個還地漁民的這個政策那內政部在95年的工地放領檢討報告裡面也有提到說他也反對政府停止辦理工地放領因為認為這樣對農民農民會對這個政府的信賴跟期待會落空甚至可能會引起反彈抗爭那如今看起來內政部當年這個擔心的事確實現在也在發生\n181242\t187806\t以台東縣為例台東縣三多比県少我們台東縣依據公有土地統計全台東縣有34.7萬公頃的土地其中公有地占了30.2萬就是我們台東的土地\n195431\t209925\t公有地占了87%涉及的中央管理機關有財政部、國防部、交通部、經濟部、退府會、農業部、園民會還有台廠等國營企業這麼多的管理機關也會造成台中線土地複雜程度遠遠超過於西部\n210626\t227261\t那有一些公共土地的使用甚至從他從光復的時光復前就一直延續到現在因為法令的限制但這長期實際在這個土地上耕作農民他只能不斷的繳租金卻無法擁有土地的所有權請記\n229423\t248669\t他可能面臨甚至可能面臨在土地會被收回的狀況被迫拆遷那這樣的情況對這些農民情何以堪我想對於行政院宣布從宜蘭大南澳地區開始事辦公共土地放領我想這對很多所有管治的農民來說那都是對於工地放領都燃起了一線的希望\n249789\t271939\t我們去年農業部有公告說我國的糧食積極率是30.3%創下18年最低蔬菜同樣也是創下10年來最低公有土地的放寧不僅可以讓農民有更大的動機投入心力改良的自有耕地也有機會提高我國的糧食積極率最重要的是可以解決這些土地長年以來的歷史糾紛\n275461\t304470\t所以本集在這邊要具體的建議我想內政部是不是可以從宜蘭從宜蘭大南澳台拓土地工地放領為例開始檢視現行的工地放領工作的要點我們會計地方的意見進行後續的修正我想既然行政院都已經大動作的宣告要重啟工地放領的這個政策我想中央該一視同仁絕對不會因人設事也不是因地設事啊工地放領是由上而下的權責\n305310\t329124\t我們中央不能把這些都帶到我們的地方建戶喔我想必須聽到我們基層的聲音我想內政部作為工地放領法規的這個主管機關更是責無旁貸那我想希望劉副長你能夠承諾在一個月內邀集相關的機關來研商重新來檢視我國工地放領這個政策還給實際耕作的農民這個公道實現我們的土地的正義沒錯\n331938\t349928\t感謝黃委員的關心黃委員的關心是沒有錯其實有關工地放領的政策我們也多次跟行政院的院長報告所以才會有5月6號的時候行政院已經有合適有條件的放領國有土地但是是以平地耕地為主\n350788\t363696\t那台東地區呢到目前為止呢我們所累計出來了以台東為主的部分在那個台東的這個工地放齡的平地耕地的這個放齡統計呢大約是608.84公頃那成都人的數目大概是752人那當然了這個裡面的條件就是要以民國65年以前\n371641\t383605\t已經有租賃關係的部分黃委員非常清楚這裡面曾經有兩次是由行政院因為颱風的關係所以停止工地放領要重新評估所以我們從1948年開始到現在的2025年當中不管是專案放領或是補辦放領或是停辦放領或是三次重新評估放領的部分院長有指示\n397649\t421043\t要全台灣有關於這個工地放領的部分全部重新來檢視那現在我們正邀集包括這個農業部也好或是包括財政部的這個國產署甚至包括那個教育部的台大實驗林這幾個有牽涉到這個工地放領的部分因為有的是平地耕地有的不是平地耕地那甚至有些是以前是漁權或者是農權的部分\n423144\t426146\t全部要重新檢視但是我也要跟委員報告除了在散落在各個不同部會裡面的這個公文書之外我們現在最大的困擾就是剛剛委員有提到可能他在工地放領已經歷經兩代三代但是我們還是一樣如果他能夠保存當時他工地放領的相關的文件資料的話我們會根據文件資料的一個部分來處理有關工地放領的部分\n451266\t479451\t那也就是說我們會依據行政院所說的當然先從大南澳的放領先開始那在處理的過程當中這程序上面有什麼困擾那我們也是陸陸續續在收集不同的意見當中那所以呢不管是工地放領或者是說其他的要回給他這是他自己應該有的這個權益的部分的話我們現在正是在努力的斟酌當中那有關工地放領的所需要的部分包括預概算\n480811\t510023\t或者是包括我們要如何去確定我們當時的這個工地放嶺的時候它的這個公道地價或者是土地的價格這些呢我們正在盤點當中其實是非常努力但是因為試射太多所以也請這個委員了解這個狀況所以部長這邊是不是可以趕快我們在一個月內我們不可能馬上嘛我們一個月來先找相關的地方來談談像我提到的台東的土地太複雜撤棄的部分是多啊而且我們台東百分之八十七耶\n510723\t531289\t整個關 八十七八都是公有地 那整個開發都是出的報告 報告委員公有土地跟公地放領就是以公地 耕地為主不太一樣我知道我的意思是說 我的意思是說這些地是存在很久那台東的情況又跟西部我們了解 你聽我說你也知道嘛我們台東八十七八都公有地 跟西部的情況不一樣 我的心理 我的單位就多嘛\n532129\t548389\t單位設計的單位是多嘛所以是由內政部來主導我們來邀請這相關部來討論接下來怎麼樣來推動這件事因為農民看到了宜蘭這件事情之後又重新燃起希望這種13代人的期待啊3代人的期待希望我們能夠來解決這件事情\n548909\t569441\t報告委員內政部應該處理的方向就是我剛所說的我們已經邀請財政部農業部包括教育部相關跟工地放領有關的這個部門都在做統計當中而不是只是談一談那大概多久會有一個出乎的答案要再多給我們一點時間啦我們等個時間嘛等個時間我剛才跟委員報告我剛才講過他這裡所有的資料裡面有已經古了甚至有的是日本時代的文字\n577125\t586748\t那這些東西我們如果沒有盤查清楚的話就直接對外宣布我想這樣對公務部門來講會有失公務部門應該有的公正氣我們已經有找過了因為院長已經指定我們要找這些不同的部會所以已經開過很多次會但是現在是在盤點公務部門跟你所說的據說當時想要再申請工地放你的人\n604554\t616808\t阿他們的文件資料在不在阿他們所說的這個甚至阿十年前二十年前他的地樁正不正確這個我們都要去看如果出問題他的爭議要如何處理我們已經現在在處理這一塊\n620872\t625695\t我們還是一樣,我們現在可能出列的也是一,平地的工地放寧為原則就是說自己手頭最有資金的,你不可以所有的公有土地全部放寧,怎麼會這樣啊?我們可以都刷很多,白頭就借啦,這個不必擔心像我們的阿祖早期在沙窟那裡睡覺,這個都在沙窟這裡\n647715\t656800\t這樣跟委員報告,那個法律跟法令從這個1948到現在已經將近七八十年了那個那時候的法令的盤點還有適用範圍,我們還是要一一來檢視因為當一個政府部門,你本來就要取信於民,你不能說人質\n669087\t679435\t東南區當時的法治的部分跟現在的法治的部分跟可以適用的到底在哪裡我們是很努力在看這些舊的這個文件資料啦但是還是要給我們一點時間啦\n681224\t700178\t那會後我們是在持續來保持聯繫因為這件事情其實 台東會相信 董事長好不好就是如果那個委員有不同的想法或建議的話我會請我們的同仁到委員辦公室跟您說明一下現在的進度好不好那會後我們來請大辦公室來討論 因為你是以台東為主啦是 啊我們現在說的是全台灣的當然 當然 當然 所以不一樣啦我們也是希望說台東的社交媒體可以通通聽到因為畢竟我一開始說的 台東的情形跟西部是不一樣的\n707843\t731079\t有關是地形也好 跟什麼土匪也好 都不太像所以學術的程度又比較多所以這一定要跟部長報告但是我也要跟委員報告 目的事業的主管機關都不在內政部所以目的事業主管機關他們要點頭那當然還是由行政院的高度會來做這個所以用平常他的 當時我們來政府是主要是我們來找來合調嘛因為牽涉的部會太多嘛\n735962\t757002\t阿我們現在就在合調阿 我們這次開了五遍以上的花啦 跟委員謝謝 感謝部長啦 部長那個台中的鄉親真的期待很久啦我想你保育委員一直在看我這樣啦 我說得快的沒關係啦沒有啦 我為了請我們的董事 才去跟委員請你台中所關心的部分 幫你報告好不好謝謝部長 謝謝承諾 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝黃金斌 謝謝黃金斌委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 謝謝 我們請劉部長劉部長有請部長 我們今天討論的是公寓大廈的這些問題不過本期這邊有另外一件跟土地爭議有關的議題也想要來跟部長就教那這個是最近台東縣許多農民非常關注的議題\n我們上個月行政院大動作的宣布說要重啟工地放領的政策並且從那個宜蘭大南澳地區這個80公頃的台拓土地開始事辦那講這樣的聲音其實全國各地都有那這個是許多農民跨世代都在爭取的權益我想絕對不是侷限在特定的地區不過很一樣到現在我們沒有看到中央有更進一步的這些作為\n從這個三七五減除開始工地放盈還有耕種有幾點這三項重要的土地改革政策目標就是希望能夠促進台灣的經濟發展那尤其是這個工地放盈的部分就希望讓實際耕種的這個農民能夠成為土地的所有權者而不是世世代代只能當電農我想藉由工地放盈也可以激發農業的生產效率同時我們可以改善農民的經濟狀況還有生活水平促進我們社會的穩定跟發展\n那我國中過去到現在工地放領大概可以分三個階段第一個階段就是從民國37年到65年實施的這個耕者有期田他希望目標能夠繁榮農村安定社會不過後來這項政策到了民國65年就停辦那第二個階段是民國78年專案辦理台中縣示範林場等三處的土地來放領\n第三個階段就是行政院在民國65年停辦公立放年之後有很多的民眾在抗議因為有許多還沒完成放年土地造成權力不公所以行政院在民國83年修正公有土地經營及處理原則\n在符合一定的條件底下辦理放零不過後來因為921地震還有台師颱風等等的災害行政院基於這個國土保安及富裕的政策在民國94到97年之間逐步公告公有山坡地、平地耕地以及養殖用地不再辦理放零所以到現在公有土地全面已經全面停止辦理這個放零\n不過工地放領到現在大概20年的時間各地還是有許多的農民不斷的在表達希望中央能夠持續的來推動落實這個還地漁民的這個政策那內政部在95年的工地放領檢討報告裡面也有提到說他也反對政府停止辦理工地放領因為認為這樣對農民農民會對這個政府的信賴跟期待會落空甚至可能會引起反彈抗爭那如今看起來內政部當年這個擔心的事確實現在也在發生\n以台東縣為例台東縣三多比県少我們台東縣依據公有土地統計全台東縣有34.7萬公頃的土地其中公有地占了30.2萬就是我們台東的土地\n公有地占了87%涉及的中央管理機關有財政部、國防部、交通部、經濟部、退府會、農業部、園民會還有台廠等國營企業這麼多的管理機關也會造成台中線土地複雜程度遠遠超過於西部\n那有一些公共土地的使用甚至從他從光復的時光復前就一直延續到現在因為法令的限制但這長期實際在這個土地上耕作農民他只能不斷的繳租金卻無法擁有土地的所有權請記\n他可能面臨甚至可能面臨在土地會被收回的狀況被迫拆遷那這樣的情況對這些農民情何以堪我想對於行政院宣布從宜蘭大南澳地區開始事辦公共土地放領我想這對很多所有管治的農民來說那都是對於工地放領都燃起了一線的希望\n我們去年農業部有公告說我國的糧食積極率是30.3%創下18年最低蔬菜同樣也是創下10年來最低公有土地的放寧不僅可以讓農民有更大的動機投入心力改良的自有耕地也有機會提高我國的糧食積極率最重要的是可以解決這些土地長年以來的歷史糾紛\n所以本集在這邊要具體的建議我想內政部是不是可以從宜蘭從宜蘭大南澳台拓土地工地放領為例開始檢視現行的工地放領工作的要點我們會計地方的意見進行後續的修正我想既然行政院都已經大動作的宣告要重啟工地放領的這個政策我想中央該一視同仁絕對不會因人設事也不是因地設事啊工地放領是由上而下的權責\n我們中央不能把這些都帶到我們的地方建戶喔我想必須聽到我們基層的聲音我想內政部作為工地放領法規的這個主管機關更是責無旁貸那我想希望劉副長你能夠承諾在一個月內邀集相關的機關來研商重新來檢視我國工地放領這個政策還給實際耕作的農民這個公道實現我們的土地的正義沒錯\n感謝黃委員的關心黃委員的關心是沒有錯其實有關工地放領的政策我們也多次跟行政院的院長報告所以才會有5月6號的時候行政院已經有合適有條件的放領國有土地但是是以平地耕地為主\n那台東地區呢到目前為止呢我們所累計出來了以台東為主的部分在那個台東的這個工地放齡的平地耕地的這個放齡統計呢大約是608.84公頃那成都人的數目大概是752人那當然了這個裡面的條件就是要以民國65年以前\n已經有租賃關係的部分黃委員非常清楚這裡面曾經有兩次是由行政院因為颱風的關係所以停止工地放領要重新評估所以我們從1948年開始到現在的2025年當中不管是專案放領或是補辦放領或是停辦放領或是三次重新評估放領的部分院長有指示\n要全台灣有關於這個工地放領的部分全部重新來檢視那現在我們正邀集包括這個農業部也好或是包括財政部的這個國產署甚至包括那個教育部的台大實驗林這幾個有牽涉到這個工地放領的部分因為有的是平地耕地有的不是平地耕地那甚至有些是以前是漁權或者是農權的部分\n全部要重新檢視但是我也要跟委員報告除了在散落在各個不同部會裡面的這個公文書之外我們現在最大的困擾就是剛剛委員有提到可能他在工地放領已經歷經兩代三代但是我們還是一樣如果他能夠保存當時他工地放領的相關的文件資料的話我們會根據文件資料的一個部分來處理有關工地放領的部分\n那也就是說我們會依據行政院所說的當然先從大南澳的放領先開始那在處理的過程當中這程序上面有什麼困擾那我們也是陸陸續續在收集不同的意見當中那所以呢不管是工地放領或者是說其他的要回給他這是他自己應該有的這個權益的部分的話我們現在正是在努力的斟酌當中那有關工地放領的所需要的部分包括預概算\n或者是包括我們要如何去確定我們當時的這個工地放嶺的時候它的這個公道地價或者是土地的價格這些呢我們正在盤點當中其實是非常努力但是因為試射太多所以也請這個委員了解這個狀況所以部長這邊是不是可以趕快我們在一個月內我們不可能馬上嘛我們一個月來先找相關的地方來談談像我提到的台東的土地太複雜撤棄的部分是多啊而且我們台東百分之八十七耶\n整個關 八十七八都是公有地 那整個開發都是出的報告 報告委員公有土地跟公地放領就是以公地 耕地為主不太一樣我知道我的意思是說 我的意思是說這些地是存在很久那台東的情況又跟西部我們了解 你聽我說你也知道嘛我們台東八十七八都公有地 跟西部的情況不一樣 我的心理 我的單位就多嘛\n單位設計的單位是多嘛所以是由內政部來主導我們來邀請這相關部來討論接下來怎麼樣來推動這件事因為農民看到了宜蘭這件事情之後又重新燃起希望這種13代人的期待啊3代人的期待希望我們能夠來解決這件事情\n報告委員內政部應該處理的方向就是我剛所說的我們已經邀請財政部農業部包括教育部相關跟工地放領有關的這個部門都在做統計當中而不是只是談一談那大概多久會有一個出乎的答案要再多給我們一點時間啦我們等個時間嘛等個時間我剛才跟委員報告我剛才講過他這裡所有的資料裡面有已經古了甚至有的是日本時代的文字\n那這些東西我們如果沒有盤查清楚的話就直接對外宣布我想這樣對公務部門來講會有失公務部門應該有的公正氣我們已經有找過了因為院長已經指定我們要找這些不同的部會所以已經開過很多次會但是現在是在盤點公務部門跟你所說的據說當時想要再申請工地放你的人\n阿他們的文件資料在不在阿他們所說的這個甚至阿十年前二十年前他的地樁正不正確這個我們都要去看如果出問題他的爭議要如何處理我們已經現在在處理這一塊\n我們還是一樣,我們現在可能出列的也是一,平地的工地放寧為原則就是說自己手頭最有資金的,你不可以所有的公有土地全部放寧,怎麼會這樣啊?我們可以都刷很多,白頭就借啦,這個不必擔心像我們的阿祖早期在沙窟那裡睡覺,這個都在沙窟這裡\n這樣跟委員報告,那個法律跟法令從這個1948到現在已經將近七八十年了那個那時候的法令的盤點還有適用範圍,我們還是要一一來檢視因為當一個政府部門,你本來就要取信於民,你不能說人質\n東南區當時的法治的部分跟現在的法治的部分跟可以適用的到底在哪裡我們是很努力在看這些舊的這個文件資料啦但是還是要給我們一點時間啦\n那會後我們是在持續來保持聯繫因為這件事情其實 台東會相信 董事長好不好就是如果那個委員有不同的想法或建議的話我會請我們的同仁到委員辦公室跟您說明一下現在的進度好不好那會後我們來請大辦公室來討論 因為你是以台東為主啦是 啊我們現在說的是全台灣的當然 當然 當然 所以不一樣啦我們也是希望說台東的社交媒體可以通通聽到因為畢竟我一開始說的 台東的情形跟西部是不一樣的\n有關是地形也好 跟什麼土匪也好 都不太像所以學術的程度又比較多所以這一定要跟部長報告但是我也要跟委員報告 目的事業的主管機關都不在內政部所以目的事業主管機關他們要點頭那當然還是由行政院的高度會來做這個所以用平常他的 當時我們來政府是主要是我們來找來合調嘛因為牽涉的部會太多嘛\n阿我們現在就在合調阿 我們這次開了五遍以上的花啦 跟委員謝謝 感謝部長啦 部長那個台中的鄉親真的期待很久啦我想你保育委員一直在看我這樣啦 我說得快的沒關係啦沒有啦 我為了請我們的董事 才去跟委員請你台中所關心的部分 幫你報告好不好謝謝部長 謝謝承諾 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝黃金斌 謝謝黃金斌委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.017 --> 00:07.639\n謝謝主席謝謝我們請劉部長劉部長有請部長我們今天討論的是公寓大廈的這些問題不過本期這邊有另外一件跟土地爭議有關的議題也想要來跟部長就教那這個是最近台東縣許多農民非常關注的議題\n\n00:33.919 --> 00:57.584\n我們上個月行政院大動作的宣布說要重啟工地放領的政策並且從那個宜蘭大南澳地區這個80公頃的台拓土地開始事辦那講這樣的聲音其實全國各地都有那這個是許多農民跨世代都在爭取的權益我想絕對不是侷限在特定的地區不過很一樣到現在我們沒有看到中央有更進一步的這些作為\n\n00:59.965 --> 01:28.284\n從這個三七五減除開始工地放盈還有耕種有幾點這三項重要的土地改革政策目標就是希望能夠促進台灣的經濟發展那尤其是這個工地放盈的部分就希望讓實際耕種的這個農民能夠成為土地的所有權者而不是世世代代只能當電農我想藉由工地放盈也可以激發農業的生產效率同時我們可以改善農民的經濟狀況還有生活水平促進我們社會的穩定跟發展\n\n01:28.984 --> 01:50.801\n那我國中過去到現在工地放領大概可以分三個階段第一個階段就是從民國37年到65年實施的這個耕者有期田他希望目標能夠繁榮農村安定社會不過後來這項政策到了民國65年就停辦那第二個階段是民國78年專案辦理台中縣示範林場等三處的土地來放領\n\n01:51.642 --> 02:05.055\n第三個階段就是行政院在民國65年停辦公立放年之後有很多的民眾在抗議因為有許多還沒完成放年土地造成權力不公所以行政院在民國83年修正公有土地經營及處理原則\n\n02:06.656 --> 02:29.085\n在符合一定的條件底下辦理放零不過後來因為921地震還有台師颱風等等的災害行政院基於這個國土保安及富裕的政策在民國94到97年之間逐步公告公有山坡地、平地耕地以及養殖用地不再辦理放零所以到現在公有土地全面已經全面停止辦理這個放零\n\n02:30.566 --> 02:58.660\n不過工地放領到現在大概20年的時間各地還是有許多的農民不斷的在表達希望中央能夠持續的來推動落實這個還地漁民的這個政策那內政部在95年的工地放領檢討報告裡面也有提到說他也反對政府停止辦理工地放領因為認為這樣對農民農民會對這個政府的信賴跟期待會落空甚至可能會引起反彈抗爭那如今看起來內政部當年這個擔心的事確實現在也在發生\n\n03:01.242 --> 03:07.806\n以台東縣為例台東縣三多比県少我們台東縣依據公有土地統計全台東縣有34.7萬公頃的土地其中公有地占了30.2萬就是我們台東的土地\n\n03:15.431 --> 03:29.925\n公有地占了87%涉及的中央管理機關有財政部、國防部、交通部、經濟部、退府會、農業部、園民會還有台廠等國營企業這麼多的管理機關也會造成台中線土地複雜程度遠遠超過於西部\n\n03:30.626 --> 03:47.261\n那有一些公共土地的使用甚至從他從光復的時光復前就一直延續到現在因為法令的限制但這長期實際在這個土地上耕作農民他只能不斷的繳租金卻無法擁有土地的所有權請記\n\n03:49.423 --> 04:08.669\n他可能面臨甚至可能面臨在土地會被收回的狀況被迫拆遷那這樣的情況對這些農民情何以堪我想對於行政院宣布從宜蘭大南澳地區開始事辦公共土地放領我想這對很多所有管治的農民來說那都是對於工地放領都燃起了一線的希望\n\n04:09.789 --> 04:31.939\n我們去年農業部有公告說我國的糧食積極率是30.3%創下18年最低蔬菜同樣也是創下10年來最低公有土地的放寧不僅可以讓農民有更大的動機投入心力改良的自有耕地也有機會提高我國的糧食積極率最重要的是可以解決這些土地長年以來的歷史糾紛\n\n04:35.461 --> 05:04.470\n所以本集在這邊要具體的建議我想內政部是不是可以從宜蘭從宜蘭大南澳台拓土地工地放領為例開始檢視現行的工地放領工作的要點我們會計地方的意見進行後續的修正我想既然行政院都已經大動作的宣告要重啟工地放領的這個政策我想中央該一視同仁絕對不會因人設事也不是因地設事啊工地放領是由上而下的權責\n\n05:05.310 --> 05:29.124\n我們中央不能把這些都帶到我們的地方建戶喔我想必須聽到我們基層的聲音我想內政部作為工地放領法規的這個主管機關更是責無旁貸那我想希望劉副長你能夠承諾在一個月內邀集相關的機關來研商重新來檢視我國工地放領這個政策還給實際耕作的農民這個公道實現我們的土地的正義沒錯\n\n05:31.938 --> 05:49.928\n感謝黃委員的關心黃委員的關心是沒有錯其實有關工地放領的政策我們也多次跟行政院的院長報告所以才會有5月6號的時候行政院已經有合適有條件的放領國有土地但是是以平地耕地為主\n\n05:50.788 --> 06:03.696\n那台東地區呢到目前為止呢我們所累計出來了以台東為主的部分在那個台東的這個工地放齡的平地耕地的這個放齡統計呢大約是608.84公頃那成都人的數目大概是752人那當然了這個裡面的條件就是要以民國65年以前\n\n06:11.641 --> 06:23.605\n已經有租賃關係的部分黃委員非常清楚這裡面曾經有兩次是由行政院因為颱風的關係所以停止工地放領要重新評估所以我們從1948年開始到現在的2025年當中不管是專案放領或是補辦放領或是停辦放領或是三次重新評估放領的部分院長有指示\n\n06:37.649 --> 07:01.043\n要全台灣有關於這個工地放領的部分全部重新來檢視那現在我們正邀集包括這個農業部也好或是包括財政部的這個國產署甚至包括那個教育部的台大實驗林這幾個有牽涉到這個工地放領的部分因為有的是平地耕地有的不是平地耕地那甚至有些是以前是漁權或者是農權的部分\n\n07:03.144 --> 07:06.146\n全部要重新檢視但是我也要跟委員報告除了在散落在各個不同部會裡面的這個公文書之外我們現在最大的困擾就是剛剛委員有提到可能他在工地放領已經歷經兩代三代但是我們還是一樣如果他能夠保存當時他工地放領的相關的文件資料的話我們會根據文件資料的一個部分來處理有關工地放領的部分\n\n07:31.266 --> 07:59.451\n那也就是說我們會依據行政院所說的當然先從大南澳的放領先開始那在處理的過程當中這程序上面有什麼困擾那我們也是陸陸續續在收集不同的意見當中那所以呢不管是工地放領或者是說其他的要回給他這是他自己應該有的這個權益的部分的話我們現在正是在努力的斟酌當中那有關工地放領的所需要的部分包括預概算\n\n08:00.811 --> 08:30.023\n或者是包括我們要如何去確定我們當時的這個工地放嶺的時候它的這個公道地價或者是土地的價格這些呢我們正在盤點當中其實是非常努力但是因為試射太多所以也請這個委員了解這個狀況所以部長這邊是不是可以趕快我們在一個月內我們不可能馬上嘛我們一個月來先找相關的地方來談談像我提到的台東的土地太複雜撤棄的部分是多啊而且我們台東百分之八十七耶\n\n08:30.723 --> 08:51.289\n整個關八十七八都是公有地那整個開發都是出的報告報告委員公有土地跟公地放領就是以公地耕地為主不太一樣我知道我的意思是說我的意思是說這些地是存在很久那台東的情況又跟西部我們了解你聽我說你也知道嘛我們台東八十七八都公有地跟西部的情況不一樣我的心理我的單位就多嘛\n\n08:52.129 --> 09:08.389\n單位設計的單位是多嘛所以是由內政部來主導我們來邀請這相關部來討論接下來怎麼樣來推動這件事因為農民看到了宜蘭這件事情之後又重新燃起希望這種13代人的期待啊3代人的期待希望我們能夠來解決這件事情\n\n09:08.909 --> 09:29.441\n報告委員內政部應該處理的方向就是我剛所說的我們已經邀請財政部農業部包括教育部相關跟工地放領有關的這個部門都在做統計當中而不是只是談一談那大概多久會有一個出乎的答案要再多給我們一點時間啦我們等個時間嘛等個時間我剛才跟委員報告我剛才講過他這裡所有的資料裡面有已經古了甚至有的是日本時代的文字\n\n09:37.125 --> 09:46.748\n那這些東西我們如果沒有盤查清楚的話就直接對外宣布我想這樣對公務部門來講會有失公務部門應該有的公正氣我們已經有找過了因為院長已經指定我們要找這些不同的部會所以已經開過很多次會但是現在是在盤點公務部門跟你所說的據說當時想要再申請工地放你的人\n\n10:04.554 --> 10:16.808\n阿他們的文件資料在不在阿他們所說的這個甚至阿十年前二十年前他的地樁正不正確這個我們都要去看如果出問題他的爭議要如何處理我們已經現在在處理這一塊\n\n10:20.872 --> 10:25.695\n我們還是一樣,我們現在可能出列的也是一,平地的工地放寧為原則就是說自己手頭最有資金的,你不可以所有的公有土地全部放寧,怎麼會這樣啊?我們可以都刷很多,白頭就借啦,這個不必擔心像我們的阿祖早期在沙窟那裡睡覺,這個都在沙窟這裡\n\n10:47.715 --> 10:56.800\n這樣跟委員報告,那個法律跟法令從這個1948到現在已經將近七八十年了那個那時候的法令的盤點還有適用範圍,我們還是要一一來檢視因為當一個政府部門,你本來就要取信於民,你不能說人質\n\n11:09.087 --> 11:19.435\n東南區當時的法治的部分跟現在的法治的部分跟可以適用的到底在哪裡我們是很努力在看這些舊的這個文件資料啦但是還是要給我們一點時間啦\n\n11:21.224 --> 11:40.178\n那會後我們是在持續來保持聯繫因為這件事情其實台東會相信董事長好不好就是如果那個委員有不同的想法或建議的話我會請我們的同仁到委員辦公室跟您說明一下現在的進度好不好那會後我們來請大辦公室來討論因為你是以台東為主啦是啊我們現在說的是全台灣的當然當然當然所以不一樣啦我們也是希望說台東的社交媒體可以通通聽到因為畢竟我一開始說的台東的情形跟西部是不一樣的\n\n11:47.843 --> 12:11.079\n有關是地形也好跟什麼土匪也好都不太像所以學術的程度又比較多所以這一定要跟部長報告但是我也要跟委員報告目的事業的主管機關都不在內政部所以目的事業主管機關他們要點頭那當然還是由行政院的高度會來做這個所以用平常他的當時我們來政府是主要是我們來找來合調嘛因為牽涉的部會太多嘛\n\n12:15.962 --> 12:37.002\n阿我們現在就在合調阿我們這次開了五遍以上的花啦跟委員謝謝感謝部長啦部長那個台中的鄉親真的期待很久啦我想你保育委員一直在看我這樣啦我說得快的沒關係啦沒有啦我為了請我們的董事才去跟委員請你台中所關心的部分幫你報告好不好謝謝部長謝謝承諾謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝黃金斌謝謝黃金斌委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.017,"end":7.639,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝 我們請劉部長劉部長有請部長 我們今天討論的是公寓大廈的這些問題不過本期這邊有另外一件跟土地爭議有關的議題也想要來跟部長就教那這個是最近台東縣許多農民非常關注的議題"},{"start":33.919,"end":57.584,"text":"我們上個月行政院大動作的宣布說要重啟工地放領的政策並且從那個宜蘭大南澳地區這個80公頃的台拓土地開始事辦那講這樣的聲音其實全國各地都有那這個是許多農民跨世代都在爭取的權益我想絕對不是侷限在特定的地區不過很一樣到現在我們沒有看到中央有更進一步的這些作為"},{"start":59.965,"end":88.284,"text":"從這個三七五減除開始工地放盈還有耕種有幾點這三項重要的土地改革政策目標就是希望能夠促進台灣的經濟發展那尤其是這個工地放盈的部分就希望讓實際耕種的這個農民能夠成為土地的所有權者而不是世世代代只能當電農我想藉由工地放盈也可以激發農業的生產效率同時我們可以改善農民的經濟狀況還有生活水平促進我們社會的穩定跟發展"},{"start":88.984,"end":110.801,"text":"那我國中過去到現在工地放領大概可以分三個階段第一個階段就是從民國37年到65年實施的這個耕者有期田他希望目標能夠繁榮農村安定社會不過後來這項政策到了民國65年就停辦那第二個階段是民國78年專案辦理台中縣示範林場等三處的土地來放領"},{"start":111.642,"end":125.055,"text":"第三個階段就是行政院在民國65年停辦公立放年之後有很多的民眾在抗議因為有許多還沒完成放年土地造成權力不公所以行政院在民國83年修正公有土地經營及處理原則"},{"start":126.656,"end":149.085,"text":"在符合一定的條件底下辦理放零不過後來因為921地震還有台師颱風等等的災害行政院基於這個國土保安及富裕的政策在民國94到97年之間逐步公告公有山坡地、平地耕地以及養殖用地不再辦理放零所以到現在公有土地全面已經全面停止辦理這個放零"},{"start":150.566,"end":178.66,"text":"不過工地放領到現在大概20年的時間各地還是有許多的農民不斷的在表達希望中央能夠持續的來推動落實這個還地漁民的這個政策那內政部在95年的工地放領檢討報告裡面也有提到說他也反對政府停止辦理工地放領因為認為這樣對農民農民會對這個政府的信賴跟期待會落空甚至可能會引起反彈抗爭那如今看起來內政部當年這個擔心的事確實現在也在發生"},{"start":181.242,"end":187.806,"text":"以台東縣為例台東縣三多比県少我們台東縣依據公有土地統計全台東縣有34.7萬公頃的土地其中公有地占了30.2萬就是我們台東的土地"},{"start":195.431,"end":209.925,"text":"公有地占了87%涉及的中央管理機關有財政部、國防部、交通部、經濟部、退府會、農業部、園民會還有台廠等國營企業這麼多的管理機關也會造成台中線土地複雜程度遠遠超過於西部"},{"start":210.626,"end":227.261,"text":"那有一些公共土地的使用甚至從他從光復的時光復前就一直延續到現在因為法令的限制但這長期實際在這個土地上耕作農民他只能不斷的繳租金卻無法擁有土地的所有權請記"},{"start":229.423,"end":248.669,"text":"他可能面臨甚至可能面臨在土地會被收回的狀況被迫拆遷那這樣的情況對這些農民情何以堪我想對於行政院宣布從宜蘭大南澳地區開始事辦公共土地放領我想這對很多所有管治的農民來說那都是對於工地放領都燃起了一線的希望"},{"start":249.789,"end":271.939,"text":"我們去年農業部有公告說我國的糧食積極率是30.3%創下18年最低蔬菜同樣也是創下10年來最低公有土地的放寧不僅可以讓農民有更大的動機投入心力改良的自有耕地也有機會提高我國的糧食積極率最重要的是可以解決這些土地長年以來的歷史糾紛"},{"start":275.461,"end":304.47,"text":"所以本集在這邊要具體的建議我想內政部是不是可以從宜蘭從宜蘭大南澳台拓土地工地放領為例開始檢視現行的工地放領工作的要點我們會計地方的意見進行後續的修正我想既然行政院都已經大動作的宣告要重啟工地放領的這個政策我想中央該一視同仁絕對不會因人設事也不是因地設事啊工地放領是由上而下的權責"},{"start":305.31,"end":329.124,"text":"我們中央不能把這些都帶到我們的地方建戶喔我想必須聽到我們基層的聲音我想內政部作為工地放領法規的這個主管機關更是責無旁貸那我想希望劉副長你能夠承諾在一個月內邀集相關的機關來研商重新來檢視我國工地放領這個政策還給實際耕作的農民這個公道實現我們的土地的正義沒錯"},{"start":331.938,"end":349.928,"text":"感謝黃委員的關心黃委員的關心是沒有錯其實有關工地放領的政策我們也多次跟行政院的院長報告所以才會有5月6號的時候行政院已經有合適有條件的放領國有土地但是是以平地耕地為主"},{"start":350.788,"end":363.696,"text":"那台東地區呢到目前為止呢我們所累計出來了以台東為主的部分在那個台東的這個工地放齡的平地耕地的這個放齡統計呢大約是608.84公頃那成都人的數目大概是752人那當然了這個裡面的條件就是要以民國65年以前"},{"start":371.641,"end":383.605,"text":"已經有租賃關係的部分黃委員非常清楚這裡面曾經有兩次是由行政院因為颱風的關係所以停止工地放領要重新評估所以我們從1948年開始到現在的2025年當中不管是專案放領或是補辦放領或是停辦放領或是三次重新評估放領的部分院長有指示"},{"start":397.649,"end":421.043,"text":"要全台灣有關於這個工地放領的部分全部重新來檢視那現在我們正邀集包括這個農業部也好或是包括財政部的這個國產署甚至包括那個教育部的台大實驗林這幾個有牽涉到這個工地放領的部分因為有的是平地耕地有的不是平地耕地那甚至有些是以前是漁權或者是農權的部分"},{"start":423.144,"end":426.146,"text":"全部要重新檢視但是我也要跟委員報告除了在散落在各個不同部會裡面的這個公文書之外我們現在最大的困擾就是剛剛委員有提到可能他在工地放領已經歷經兩代三代但是我們還是一樣如果他能夠保存當時他工地放領的相關的文件資料的話我們會根據文件資料的一個部分來處理有關工地放領的部分"},{"start":451.266,"end":479.451,"text":"那也就是說我們會依據行政院所說的當然先從大南澳的放領先開始那在處理的過程當中這程序上面有什麼困擾那我們也是陸陸續續在收集不同的意見當中那所以呢不管是工地放領或者是說其他的要回給他這是他自己應該有的這個權益的部分的話我們現在正是在努力的斟酌當中那有關工地放領的所需要的部分包括預概算"},{"start":480.811,"end":510.023,"text":"或者是包括我們要如何去確定我們當時的這個工地放嶺的時候它的這個公道地價或者是土地的價格這些呢我們正在盤點當中其實是非常努力但是因為試射太多所以也請這個委員了解這個狀況所以部長這邊是不是可以趕快我們在一個月內我們不可能馬上嘛我們一個月來先找相關的地方來談談像我提到的台東的土地太複雜撤棄的部分是多啊而且我們台東百分之八十七耶"},{"start":510.723,"end":531.289,"text":"整個關 八十七八都是公有地 那整個開發都是出的報告 報告委員公有土地跟公地放領就是以公地 耕地為主不太一樣我知道我的意思是說 我的意思是說這些地是存在很久那台東的情況又跟西部我們了解 你聽我說你也知道嘛我們台東八十七八都公有地 跟西部的情況不一樣 我的心理 我的單位就多嘛"},{"start":532.129,"end":548.389,"text":"單位設計的單位是多嘛所以是由內政部來主導我們來邀請這相關部來討論接下來怎麼樣來推動這件事因為農民看到了宜蘭這件事情之後又重新燃起希望這種13代人的期待啊3代人的期待希望我們能夠來解決這件事情"},{"start":548.909,"end":569.441,"text":"報告委員內政部應該處理的方向就是我剛所說的我們已經邀請財政部農業部包括教育部相關跟工地放領有關的這個部門都在做統計當中而不是只是談一談那大概多久會有一個出乎的答案要再多給我們一點時間啦我們等個時間嘛等個時間我剛才跟委員報告我剛才講過他這裡所有的資料裡面有已經古了甚至有的是日本時代的文字"},{"start":577.125,"end":586.748,"text":"那這些東西我們如果沒有盤查清楚的話就直接對外宣布我想這樣對公務部門來講會有失公務部門應該有的公正氣我們已經有找過了因為院長已經指定我們要找這些不同的部會所以已經開過很多次會但是現在是在盤點公務部門跟你所說的據說當時想要再申請工地放你的人"},{"start":604.554,"end":616.808,"text":"阿他們的文件資料在不在阿他們所說的這個甚至阿十年前二十年前他的地樁正不正確這個我們都要去看如果出問題他的爭議要如何處理我們已經現在在處理這一塊"},{"start":620.872,"end":625.695,"text":"我們還是一樣,我們現在可能出列的也是一,平地的工地放寧為原則就是說自己手頭最有資金的,你不可以所有的公有土地全部放寧,怎麼會這樣啊?我們可以都刷很多,白頭就借啦,這個不必擔心像我們的阿祖早期在沙窟那裡睡覺,這個都在沙窟這裡"},{"start":647.715,"end":656.8,"text":"這樣跟委員報告,那個法律跟法令從這個1948到現在已經將近七八十年了那個那時候的法令的盤點還有適用範圍,我們還是要一一來檢視因為當一個政府部門,你本來就要取信於民,你不能說人質"},{"start":669.087,"end":679.435,"text":"東南區當時的法治的部分跟現在的法治的部分跟可以適用的到底在哪裡我們是很努力在看這些舊的這個文件資料啦但是還是要給我們一點時間啦"},{"start":681.224,"end":700.178,"text":"那會後我們是在持續來保持聯繫因為這件事情其實 台東會相信 董事長好不好就是如果那個委員有不同的想法或建議的話我會請我們的同仁到委員辦公室跟您說明一下現在的進度好不好那會後我們來請大辦公室來討論 因為你是以台東為主啦是 啊我們現在說的是全台灣的當然 當然 當然 所以不一樣啦我們也是希望說台東的社交媒體可以通通聽到因為畢竟我一開始說的 台東的情形跟西部是不一樣的"},{"start":707.843,"end":731.079,"text":"有關是地形也好 跟什麼土匪也好 都不太像所以學術的程度又比較多所以這一定要跟部長報告但是我也要跟委員報告 目的事業的主管機關都不在內政部所以目的事業主管機關他們要點頭那當然還是由行政院的高度會來做這個所以用平常他的 當時我們來政府是主要是我們來找來合調嘛因為牽涉的部會太多嘛"},{"start":735.962,"end":757.002,"text":"阿我們現在就在合調阿 我們這次開了五遍以上的花啦 跟委員謝謝 感謝部長啦 部長那個台中的鄉親真的期待很久啦我想你保育委員一直在看我這樣啦 我說得快的沒關係啦沒有啦 我為了請我們的董事 才去跟委員請你台中所關心的部分 幫你報告好不好謝謝部長 謝謝承諾 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝黃金斌 謝謝黃金斌委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時35分）謝謝主席，我們請劉部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長早。部長，我們今天討論的是公寓大廈的一些問題。"],["劉部長世芳：對，點交。"],["黃委員建賓：不過本席這邊有另外一件跟土地爭議有關的議題，也想要來跟部長就教。這是最近臺東縣許多農民非常關注的議題，上個月行政院大動作的宣布說要重啟公地放領的政策，並且從宜蘭大南澳地區80公頃的台拓土地開始試辦，我想這樣的政策全國各地都有，這是許多農民跨世代都在爭取的權益，絕對不是侷限在特定的地區，不過很遺憾，到現在我們沒有看到中央有更進一步的作為。","我們早期從三七五減租開始，公地放領還有耕者有其田這三項重要的土地改革政策，目標就是希望能夠促進臺灣的經濟發展，尤其公地放領的部分，希望讓實際耕種的農民能夠成為土地的所有權者，而不是世世代代只能當佃農，我想藉由公地放領，也可以激發農業的生產效率，同時可以改善農民的經濟狀況還有生活水平，促進社會的穩定跟發展。","我國從過去到現在，公地放領大概可以分三個階段：第一個階段是從民國37年到65年實施的耕者有其田，目標是希望能夠繁榮農村、安定社會，不過後來這項政策到了民國65年就停辦；第二個階段是民國78年專案辦理臺中縣示範林場等三處的土地來放領；第三個階段行政院在民國65年停辦公地放領之後，有很多的民眾在抗議，因為有許多還沒有完成放領的土地，造成權益不公，所以行政院在民國83年修正公有土地經營及處理原則，在符合一定的條件底下辦理放領，不過後來因為九二一地震還有桃芝颱風等等的災害，行政院基於國土保安及復育的政策，在民國94到97年之間逐步公告，公有山坡地、平地耕地以及養殖用地不再辦理放領，所以到現在，公有土地已經全面停止辦理放領。","不過，公地放領到現在大概過了20年的時間，各地還是有許多的農民不斷在表達，希望中央能夠持續來推動，落實還地於民的政策。內政部在95年的公地放領檢討報告裡面也有提到，它也反對政府停止辦理公地放領，認為農民對政府的信賴跟期待會落空，甚至可能會引起反彈、抗爭，如今看起來，內政部當年擔心的事確實現在也在發生。","我為什麼要說這個？因為以臺東縣為例，臺東縣山多平原少，依據公有土地的統計，全臺東縣有34.7萬公頃的土地，其中公有地占了30.2萬，就是說在臺東的土地裡面，公有地占了87%，涉及的中央管理機關有財政部、國防部、交通部、經濟部、退輔會、農業部、原民會還有台糖等國營企業，這麼多的管理機關也會造成臺東縣土地的複雜程度遠遠超過西部，有些公有土地的使用甚至從光復前就一直延續到現在，可以說這塊土地養三代人，但因為法令的限制，讓這些長期實際在土地上耕作的農民只能不斷地繳租金，卻無法擁有土地的所有權，他甚至可能面臨土地會被收回的狀況，被迫拆遷，那這樣的情況，對這些農民情何以堪？","對於行政院宣布從宜蘭大南澳地區開始試辦公有土地放領，我想這對很多所有縣市的農民來說，對於公地放領燃起了一線的希望，加上去年農業部也有公告，我國的糧食自給率是30.3%，創下18年來最低，蔬菜同樣也是創下10年來最低。公有土地放領不僅可以讓農民有更大的動機投入心力，改良自有耕地，也有機會能夠提高我國的糧食自給率，最重要的是可以解決這些土地長年以來的歷史糾紛，所以本席在這邊要具體建議，內政部是不是可以從宜蘭大南澳台拓土地公地放領為例，開始檢視現行的公地放領工作要點，匯集地方的意見，進行後續的修正？既然行政院都已經大動作宣告要重啟公地放領這個政策，我想中央應該一視同仁，絕對不會因人設事，也不會因地設事。公地放領是由上而下的權責，中央不能把這些壓力都丟給地方政府，必須聽到基層的聲音，我想內政部作為公地放領法規的主管機關更是責無旁貸。我希望劉部長能夠承諾，在一個月內邀集相關的機關來研商，重新檢視我國的公地放領政策，還給實際耕作的農民公道，實現我們的土地正義。"],["劉部長世芳：感謝黃委員的關心，黃委員的關心是沒有錯的，其實有關公地放領的政策，我們也多次跟行政院院長報告，所以5月6號行政院核示有條件的放領國有土地，但是是以平地耕地為主。臺東地區，到目前為止我們所累計出來的數據，公地放領平地耕地的統計大約是608.84公頃，承租人的數目大概是752人，當然這裡面的條件就是要民國65年以前已經有租賃關係，黃委員也非常清楚，因為颱風的關係，所以停止公地放領，要重新評估，所以我們從1948年開始到現在2025年當中，不管是專案放領，或是補辦放領，或是停辦放領，或是三次重新評估放領的部分，院長有指示，全臺灣有關公地放領的部分要全部重新檢視，現在我們正邀集，包括農業部、財政部國產署，甚至教育部的臺大實驗林，這幾個有牽涉到公地放領的部分，因為有的是平地耕地、有的不是平地耕地，甚至有些以前是漁權或者是農權的部分，全部要重新檢視。","但是我也要跟委員報告，除了散落在各個不同部會裡面的公文書之外，我們現在最大的困擾就是剛剛委員有提到的，可能他在公地放領已經歷經兩代、三代，但是我們還是一樣，如果他能夠保存當時公地放領的相關文件資料，我們會根據文件資料來處理有關公地放領的部分，也就是說，我們會依據行政院所說的，先從大南澳的放領開始，在處理的過程當中、在程序上面有什麼困擾？我們也是陸陸續續在蒐集不同的意見當中，所以不管是公地放領，或是其他要回給他自己應該有的權益的部分，我們正在努力的斟酌當中。","有關公地放領所需要的部分，包括預、概算，或是包括我們要如何去確定當時公地放領的時候，它的公告地價或是土地價格這些資訊，我們正在盤點當中，其實我們非常努力，但是因為事涉太多，所以也請委員了解這個狀況。"],["黃委員建賓：所以部長這邊是不是可以趕快？你們不可能馬上處理這些問題嘛，但在一個月內我們先找相關的機關來談談看，像我提到的，臺東的土地太複雜，涉及的部會之多，而且我們臺東整個縣87%都是公有地，整個開發都受到影響。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，公有土地跟公地放領，就是以平地耕地為主，不太一樣。"],["黃委員建賓：我知道，我的意思是說這些狀況其實存在很久了，臺東的情況又跟西部的情況不一樣。"],["劉部長世芳：我們了解。"],["黃委員建賓：你聽我說你也知道嘛，我們臺東87%都是公有地，跟西部的情況又不一樣，因為我們涉及的單位之多，所以是不是由內政部來主導，我們邀請這些相關部會來討論，看接下來怎麼樣來推動這件事？因為農民看到了宜蘭這件事情之後又重新燃起希望，這是三代人的期待，希望我們能夠解決這件事情。"],["劉部長世芳：是，報告委員，內政部應該處理的方向就是我剛剛所說的，我們已經邀請財政部、農業部，也包括教育部等跟公地放領有關的部門在做統計當中，而不只是談一談。"],["黃委員建賓：大概多久會有一個初步的答案？"],["劉部長世芳：要再多給我們一點時間，三個月……"],["黃委員建賓：我們定一個時間嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告，我剛才有說過，它這些資料有的已經舊了，甚至有的是日本時代的文字，這些東西我們如果沒有盤查清楚就直接對外宣布的話，我想這樣對公務部門來講會有失公務部門應該有的公正性。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，本席只是說我們先把相關部會找來，我們先來討論這件事情。"],["劉部長世芳：我們已經有找過。"],["黃委員建賓：已經有找就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：因為院長已經指定我們要找這些不同的部會，所以已經開過很多次會，但是現在是在盤點公務部門跟你所說的，譬如當時想要再申請公地放領的人，他們的文件資料在不在，甚至10年前、20年前他的地樁正不正確？這個我們都要去看，如果出問題，他的爭議要如何處理，我們現在已經在處理這一塊。"],["黃委員建賓：初步的方向大概什麼時候可以有答案？"],["劉部長世芳：我們還是一樣……"],["黃委員建賓：我們還是要跟鄉親報告啊，鄉親也很期待，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我要跟委員說，我們現在有可能處理的也是依平地的公地放領為原則，也就是說自己手上有租金的，你不能所有的公有土地全部放領，哪有這樣的啦！"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我們臺東山比較多，平地比較少，這部分要怎麼辦？像我曾祖父早期在山區那邊開墾的，這些都在山區啊！"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，那個法律跟法令從1948年到現在已經將近七、八十年了，那時候的法令盤點還有適用範圍，我們還是要一一來檢視，因為當一個政府部門本來就要取信於民，不能人治，應該要法治啦！"],["黃委員建賓：是，當然。"],["劉部長世芳：當時的法制跟現在的法制，可以適用的部分在哪裡？我們是很努力在看這些舊的文件資料，但是還是要給我們一點時間。"],["黃委員建賓：好，會後我們是不是再持續保持聯繫？因為這件事情其實臺東的鄉親……"],["劉部長世芳：如果委員有不同的想法或建議的話，我會請我們的同仁到委員辦公室跟您說明一下現在的進度，好不好？"],["黃委員建賓：好，會後再請到我們辦公室來討論。"],["劉部長世芳：因為你是以臺東為主，我們現在說的是全臺灣，所以不一樣。"],["黃委員建賓：當然，我也是希望臺東的聲音可以讓中央聽到，因為畢竟像我一開始說的，臺東的情形跟西部是不一樣的。"],["劉部長世芳：我知道。"],["黃委員建賓：不管是地形也好或是牽涉的部會也好，都不一樣，所以複雜的程度更多。"],["劉部長世芳：我了解。"],["黃委員建賓：所以這一定要跟部長報告。"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是我也要跟委員報告，目的事業主管機關都不在內政部，所以目的事業主管機關要點頭，當然還是要由行政院的高度來做這樣的宣布。"],["黃委員建賓：所以用行政院的角色宣布，內政部是主責機關，你們找來協調嘛，因為牽涉的部會太多了，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在就在協調了，我們至少開過5次以上的會。"],["黃委員建賓：好啦，感謝部長啦！部長，臺東的鄉親真的期待很久了。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["黃委員建賓：李柏毅委員一直在看我了，我講快一點，謝謝部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我會後再請我們的同仁就委員所關心臺東的部分跟你做報告，好不好？"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長今天的承諾，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員，也謝謝李柏毅委員的等待。","下一位我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-26","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","黃建賓","李柏毅","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李坤城","謝龍介","黃國昌","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃健豪","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長就「公寓大廈公設點交爭議及其處理與預防作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、「住宅法」：(一)繼續審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法\n第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(三)繼續審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查\n委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)繼續審查委員賴士葆等17人\n擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、( 六) 繼續審查委員牛煦庭等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(八)繼續審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 九) 繼續審查委員羅智強等16 人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)繼續審查委\n員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十二)繼續審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具\n「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案、(十三)繼續審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部\n分條文修正草案」案、( 十四) 繼續審查委員李坤城等24 人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(十五)繼續審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)繼續審查委\n員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十七)繼續審查委員高金素梅等27人擬\n具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法\n第二條條文修正草案」案、(十九)繼續審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 繼續審查委員林倩綺等23 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(二十一)審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)審查委員\n陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、( 二十四) 審查委員許宇甄等20 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二十五)審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十六)審查委員\n林月琴等19人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十七)審查委員楊曜等22人擬具「住宅法\n第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二十八)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十五條\n及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(二十九)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(三十)審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十一)審查\n委員蘇巧慧等17 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 三十二) 審查委員羅明才等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十三)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「住宅法增訂第四條之\n一條文草案」案、(三十四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十九條及第二十條條\n文修正草案」案、(三十五)審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三\n十六)審查委員游顥等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十七)審查委員羅智強等\n16人擬具「住宅法第四十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(三十八)審查委員葉元之等19人擬\n具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案【進行專題報告及詢答，並宣讀住宅法第 ( 二十一) 案至第\n(三十八)案提案條文】","agenda_id":"1146201_00015"}}}