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00:00:42,886\n其實我早上聽了這麼多委員的諮詢,憑立法院這些老代要處理今天這個議題,那是沒有能力的青少年犯罪這樣的一個飆升,那確實是一個警訊\n\n3\n00:00:45,968 --> 00:00:53,675\n青少年當然是國家未來的一個棟樑可是這個棟樑如果涉及到犯罪的話又是法務部的一個職長當然要去打擊犯罪所以這個問題環環相扣但是本集倒想先請教幾個問題早上我看大家一直連召委也\n\n4\n00:01:03,644 --> 00:01:17,842\n霍進來在問這個黃國昌委員這樣的一個質詢到底是不是有涉及到犯罪的一個問題大家聲音講得都很大聲但是我覺得這個議題是在野黨耍老千的一個議題\n\n5\n00:01:19,704 --> 00:01:44,282\n憲法第73條明文就給你規定立法委員在院內的一個言論跟表決對院外他其實是不負責任這個其實有言論免責權的問題甚至於連在野黨都已經跟你聯手了在整個會期本來是延到7月31號現在又延到8月31號按照我們憲法徵修條文第4條第8項的前段\n\n6\n00:01:46,784 --> 00:02:06,894\n立法委員你除了現行犯以外除了現行犯以外在會期裡面沒有經過因為許可你也沒有辦法去逮捕他所以這個是一連串的我會覺得在立法院裡面要去追究這樣的一個法律上的責任困難\n\n7\n00:02:08,274 --> 00:02:12,596\n比登天還難啊這個我倒認為是屬於一個國會自律啊或者說個人要負政治責任的問題啦我不曉得部長你的看法怎麼樣那個的確我們這些的一個我們是不樂見外面希望說立法委員我們都理性問政那我們觀念也\n\n8\n00:02:27,541 --> 00:02:43,947\n也來做一個回應但是如果說有這樣的一個委員所提到這情形我們是希望就是我們尊重委員的一些的寶貴意見是啦我們都希望在國會裡面其實都可以通過一些更好的\n\n9\n00:02:45,632 --> 00:03:13,952\n福利民生的法案當然對行政部門那監督當然是這個本來就是一個職責但是我要請教一個問題就是說我們現在在整個矯正體制裡面我們又設了很多監獄那設了很多監獄只要是人都會生病怕不料都要傳一款醫生我想請教衛福部衛福部次長那我們現在現在我們碰到了一個問題就是說\n\n10\n00:03:18,195 --> 00:03:26,561\n針對連續假期連續假期連續三天我們到我們這個不管是部立醫院或者說民間的醫療機構我們會請醫生到這個矯正機關到監獄裡面去醫生要去看病\n\n11\n00:03:34,307 --> 00:03:38,790\n你連續三天連續假期三天你就開始要擺儀先起這樣的一個規定連續假三天的假連假只要有三天的話你就必須要有門診\n\n12\n00:03:50,558 --> 00:04:03,125\n那你接下來會碰到一個問題喔你教師節還有你這個雙十節中秋節還有春假這都連續假期啊遇到這種時候你還要叫人家練習都要去門診那對醫院裡面大家叫苦連天啊這你們都知道嘛那這種規定來講的話合不合理\n\n13\n00:04:15,910 --> 00:04:39,976\n報告委員我們剛才也知道現在目前有這個廉價嘛那我也坦誠跟委員講我們確實在醫院人力的部分確實調配上來說有問題但是我們這個部分還是特別是我們的部立醫院的部分這個是我們國家職責所在我們還是會盡全力啦然後這裡面也會包括我們現在那個加成如果說在這個時候我們現在目前在研議\n\n14\n00:04:40,496 --> 00:04:48,803\n有做加成的一個相關規定來讓我們的醫師能夠來符合這個需求但長期來說確實人力我們也必須要來做一個相對應的處理受刑人的人權當然要去保障這也都是對但是有時候跟實際上你造成這些醫療院所他實質上確實是人力這樣的一個短缺很嚴重的一個衝擊這個我們也必須要去正視第二個問題\n\n15\n00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:09,820\n這個署長這個署長你會比較清楚\n\n16\n00:05:28,442 --> 00:05:31,305\n你們有人欠很多嗎?你們欠到醫療院所,欠到病院就要來找我們立委說好,這樣監獄來找人來看看,看不看得到人家落職啊,衛福部次長我剛才忘了問你,你們那個部立醫院也是被欠了一大堆錢啊\n\n17\n00:05:48,305 --> 00:05:52,327\n這樣才對人家去看病連鎖假日三天就要派人去看病看過就算了都很好啦因為我相信可能是考量到如果說這些受刑人要出來還要介乎很多的麻煩嘛所以連續假期三次都要開這個門診嘛但是我們看病看過之後錢要給人啊\n\n18\n00:06:08,793 --> 00:06:35,080\n報告委員醫院會跟機關催討這些醫療費用其實這不是機關欠醫院而是因為這些受刑人去看病以後他沒有錢付那沒有錢付我們要動用公益金之前我們必須要有完備的程序比如說打電話跟他的家人兒子說你爸爸有欠這筆錢你要來繳納\n\n19\n00:06:37,461 --> 00:06:43,445\n那他兒子可能會講說我的收入有限我們要問很多的相關的問題你會碰到一個問題啦人家你們帶來啦你們帶來之後人家就要給你們看所以我們在完備程序之後其他的受刑人不會說不公平的前提下我們會召開所謂的合作社的會議然後看多少錢我們盡量的\n\n20\n00:07:03,460 --> 00:07:11,708\n分這個梯次來給我們的醫療院所我們也希望跟醫院能夠合作愉快我唸給你聽在台東有台東監獄啦綠島監獄啦有看守所啦有戒治所啦技能訓練所有太原延淪到東城啦你看馬街醫院去京都\n\n21\n00:07:26,022 --> 00:07:31,545\n泰元喔你們泰元欠過的人嘛欠過的人你們看完了你們怎麼欠少你們100均2人欠十萬三千塊啦100均欠2人欠二十六萬一千五百八十五塊啦100均八年欠十七萬倍啦100均九年欠到六萬倍114年八萬多你就給人家欠了69萬多那你現在欠費人家在吹角的金額到現在要上百萬啦\n\n22\n00:07:52,256 --> 00:07:55,781\n你現在跟人家說不然你去找啊連續家屬醫院才有人去找你第一壽星冷卻以後\n\n23\n00:08:00,216 --> 00:08:07,740\n不是請醫院去跟家屬去追繳而是由我們機關在打電話給家屬說你們要趕快來繳這筆錢如果說問過相關他的家屬都沒辦法繳之後那我們才會開會要不要動用公益金替這個受刑人來繳納那這個要公平不然其他的受刑人他會說他為什麼有特權\n\n24\n00:08:28,430 --> 00:08:48,131\n阿我的重點是你們開了會還是欠帳阿公益金有限阿委員你要斷絕阿我們盡量能夠繳納但是我們公益金其實有限我們公益金也要補助其他受薪人的營補費什麼不是專門提供欠費欠繳\n\n25\n00:08:49,893 --> 00:08:56,698\n這樣講好了你們這樣講完以後保庭我是這樣記錄的你們也知道這個情況啦那衛護部次長也在這個地方我會認為這樣對醫院來講是比較無辜一點啦那一般的民眾我來看扁全民健保嘛有些我讀的善良人嘛政府照顧我老伯生嘛有些欠少難免嘛但是呢我們機關又扮演一個一定的一個角色是人你叫我來醫生嘛跟你我們\n\n26\n00:09:19,457 --> 00:09:23,703\n政府部門簽約嘛你說連續三天假期叫我派人去去那門城我就真的騎了騎都看那個就不用錢的看那個就賴賬的這不好啦我覺得政府應該想辦法\n\n27\n00:09:32,335 --> 00:09:43,963\n政府應該想辦法我這個醫療院所你說部立醫院桃園部立醫院你也選八百萬嘛那個政府的那個政府左手右手怎麼挪那還另外一件事可是你涉及到不是政府部門的你說因為我有開會啦我什麼都做啦那就不繳啊所以我也沒辦法啊人家在說企業就是都不要跟我們合資你不要來看不要叫我們企\n\n28\n00:09:59,670 --> 00:10:19,979\n有沒有道理我認為要解決啦怎麼論述我沒意見啦我是認為讓人家這樣一直掛在那個地方齁讓人家產生這樣的一個怨言齁這也不好啦你們都認為合作很愉快啦可是沒有收到錢的時候人家真的是不愉快啦是我要報告委員我們不管是衛福部或是保護部其實針對受刑人自從102年加入二代健保之後我們都有編列這些經費一些經費來做一些開支\n\n29\n00:10:29,343 --> 00:10:35,950\n所以我們並不是說想要賴賬那是受刑人欠的但是我們會公平起見去做應該完備程序之後我們再來繳納\n\n30\n00:10:50,726 --> 00:11:00,974\n我知道是署長我知道是受刑人欠的啦但我的意思是說實質上經過你們這樣子開會甚至他的作業基金在監獄裡面工作的錢先把它扣掉給他是這些都該做的我的重點是最後這幾年連續這樣給人家掛在帳簽人情不好看\n\n31\n00:11:14,406 --> 00:11:30,275\n是我們盡量來要求我們所屬機關在相關的公益金我們的合作社會議裡面盡量能夠通過用公益金來繳納這些費用我只要求一個啦趕快啦趕快啦金剛行調正部長先請回我請我們警政署署長今天的議題啊\n\n32\n00:11:37,728 --> 00:11:47,138\n其實很大的一個議題啦針對青少年這個刑案的嫌疑人這個人數一直在創高啦\n\n33\n00:11:49,164 --> 00:12:16,465\n我不曉得你的感慨是什麼因為站在警察機關我們本來就是要打擊犯罪你也不可能說他因為青少年你犯了罪了這一些我都給我都沒看到該做的我們還是要去做那其實我是看到2023年新北那個國中生拿台灣刀去刺死隔壁的同學當然反而現在審理當中那像這種案件\n\n34\n00:12:17,472 --> 00:12:28,927\n我都有一個很大的感觸就是說那個青少年他去到案以後他去自述啊他案後他自述他自己常常都有帶刀上學這樣的一個習慣那其實這個時候啊\n\n35\n00:12:33,052 --> 00:12:45,742\n這個時機其實就是少五分應該去介入的一個最好的一個時機可是呢我們去看我們去看就是說這幾年我們修法完以後少年事件處理法我們現在變成行政輔導先行上路那這個制度\n\n36\n00:12:47,563 --> 00:13:03,559\n那到底有沒有去落實讓暴險少年不要一開始就進入到整個司法的一個體系那由行政體系先去介入輔導再評估司法移送法院我想問的就是說你們現在人力的部分結構上你當一個署長你看到這個問題地方上這樣能量\n\n37\n00:13:09,738 --> 00:13:13,827\n到底夠不夠實際上在第一線工作各縣市的少年輔導組我給你看看組成\n\n38\n00:13:18,329 --> 00:13:45,370\n這一個結構裡面大部分還是我們警察機關啦我不知道你對這個看法可不可以簡單做一個回答好那這個是在112年7月開始上路就是不僅少年的行政輔導先行那現在全國的這個少府會的這個全國的這個人力大概260幾個那在113年的流動率是偏高的那這個組織裡面除了台北市\n\n39\n00:13:46,531 --> 00:14:06,061\n看起來就是他自己市政府有補助比較健全其他各縣市政府的消費大概由這個市安網來做補助確實市長台東三個我確實就是這些人力上有一些是要又再做增加我想這個這個部分另外是\n\n40\n00:14:06,781 --> 00:14:25,827\n因為上午會的這個功能不是司法單位啦就是作為輔導單位我覺得有在做這一些健全的一個空間那我們這個部分因為是110人開始做施行未來可能要逐步在做檢討在人力他們的待遇或者是在他們的這一些的\n\n41\n00:14:26,747 --> 00:14:47,949\n功能上在做加強因為他輔導的目前每個人開案大概是在10個左右啦每個輔導大概10個左右那目前的這個量能初步大概是這樣子那我想就是他主要的這個有三個面向第一個剛剛委員所提的這個無故攜帶器無故攜帶這個器械\n\n42\n00:14:49,691 --> 00:15:12,696\n或者是這些這個毒品沒有犯刑示範就是所謂三級毒品或者是預備犯若或者是這些的一個未遂犯這個都是列在於我們這個不省少年這個輔導先行的這個範圍裡面所以就是你現在基層能量不夠對這個量能應該不太夠來看下一張要怎麼做充實現在就是說\n\n43\n00:15:15,376 --> 00:15:38,703\n曝險少年這個不是早退現在不是說早退還是我蹺課就像剛剛署長你講的現在很多涉及到刀械私用毒品還有預備犯罪那你現在的少府會你也沒有這個強制的權利啦所以你這個很麻煩就是針對這種高風險的個案你有明確的行政流程應變的機制跟責任分工嗎\n\n44\n00:15:39,923 --> 00:15:43,906\n這個我還要問你以前你現在偏差的行為那個太樣太多太多啦你一個市權沒有辦法去做一個做一個你要怎麼去做一個協調比如說各地方政府裡面一大堆相關的資源單位交易局你說中促的輔導這個婦苗專案社會局還有兒少保護家房中心園民局處還有提供部落家庭的支持衛福部心理警政你這個整個市權裡面\n\n45\n00:16:10,286 --> 00:16:30,076\n處處去交錯,你少五會不僅需要去協調所有單位,你還有先議權所以現在你制度實行下來,該道路是好好去檢討的時候了對,我跟你講,就是說這些青少年的問題,有牽涉到他處罰的\n\n46\n00:16:32,098 --> 00:16:49,478\n有牽涉他父親少年有牽涉他偏差行為有牽涉到忠厝這些行為都散佈在各部會所以未來就是說現在目前的這個父親少年這個善良輔導先行可能牽涉他跟成年犯結合在一起\n\n47\n00:16:50,438 --> 00:17:19,119\n兩個是又分開的所以實施到現在剛剛在這個有些委員質詢的時候我覺得就是這個部分未來有檢討的空間看怎麼要來做整合這個最麻煩在哪裡我講我的感觸給你聽就是說我們變成我們警政單位扮演的角色他其實是最重的啦扮演的角色最重可是呢對這一些少年來講的話他對你們又是最排斥的\n\n48\n00:17:20,185 --> 00:17:22,307\n又是最排斥的所以說像這樣子的話要安裝給少府會還有警政機關繼續這樣擔當這麼重要的一個角色這個缺點其實是很明確所以重新去檢討去選定組織機關的歸屬\n\n49\n00:17:40,984 --> 00:17:58,084\n我認為真的要好好去討論在立法院裡面因為時間都很短本來這個議題可以好好來做討論我也不敢耽誤其他委員太過多的一個時間那剛好實行完了那這一段時間完以後整個制度沒有去檢討真的不行你把它想想看\n\n50\n00:17:59,125 --> 00:18:17,112\n在立法院的氛圍裡面只要涉及到重大犯罪的時候大家要求警政機關裡面在幹什麼趕快去打擊犯罪然後碰到只要是青少年大家一看警察局你可能會講說你不是叫我去打擊犯罪我打擊犯罪成果給你啦現在出來你還欺負說我那裡沒做到那裡沒做到那裡沒做到少府會這樣的一個本來是一個協調過程的一個平台但是卡關了啦人也不夠啦權責也都不清啦\n\n51\n00:18:29,077 --> 00:18:46,651\n我期待應該跟衛福部大家好好跟整個教育部好好做這個制度真的是到真的不得不趕快讓一個檢討出一個新的制度否則我們會看到青少年犯罪我跟你講還會再飆升要加油好不好好謝謝謝委員好那我們\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11219\t23276\t謝謝主席 有請我們法務部政務部長麻煩法務部政務部長還有衛福部旅次長衛福部旅次長矯正署周署長周署長\n27855\t42886\t其實我早上聽了這麼多委員的諮詢,憑立法院這些老代要處理今天這個議題,那是沒有能力的青少年犯罪這樣的一個飆升,那確實是一個警訊\n45968\t53675\t青少年當然是國家未來的一個棟樑可是這個棟樑如果涉及到犯罪的話又是法務部的一個職長當然要去打擊犯罪所以這個問題環環相扣但是本集倒想先請教幾個問題早上我看大家一直連召委也\n63644\t77842\t霍進來在問這個黃國昌委員這樣的一個質詢到底是不是有涉及到犯罪的一個問題大家聲音講得都很大聲但是我覺得這個議題是在野黨耍老千的一個議題\n79704\t104282\t憲法第73條明文就給你規定立法委員在院內的一個言論跟表決對院外他其實是不負責任這個其實有言論免責權的問題甚至於連在野黨都已經跟你聯手了在整個會期本來是延到7月31號現在又延到8月31號按照我們憲法徵修條文第4條第8項的前段\n106784\t126894\t立法委員你除了現行犯以外除了現行犯以外在會期裡面沒有經過因為許可你也沒有辦法去逮捕他所以這個是一連串的我會覺得在立法院裡面要去追究這樣的一個法律上的責任困難\n128274\t132596\t比登天還難啊這個我倒認為是屬於一個國會自律啊或者說個人要負政治責任的問題啦我不曉得部長你的看法怎麼樣那個的確我們這些的一個我們是不樂見外面希望說立法委員我們都理性問政那我們觀念也\n147541\t163947\t也來做一個回應但是如果說有這樣的一個委員所提到這情形我們是希望就是我們尊重委員的一些的寶貴意見是啦 我們都希望在國會裡面其實都可以通過一些更好的\n165632\t193952\t福利民生的法案當然對行政部門那監督當然是這個本來就是一個職責但是我要請教一個問題就是說我們現在在整個矯正體制裡面我們又設了很多監獄那設了很多監獄只要是人都會生病怕不料都要傳一款醫生我想請教衛福部衛福部次長那我們現在現在我們碰到了一個問題就是說\n198195\t206561\t針對連續假期連續假期連續三天我們到我們這個不管是部立醫院或者說民間的醫療機構我們會請醫生到這個矯正機關到監獄裡面去醫生要去看病\n214307\t218790\t你連續三天 連續假期三天你就開始要擺儀先起這樣的一個規定連續假三天的假 連假只要有三天的話你就必須要有門診\n230558\t243125\t那你接下來會碰到一個問題喔 你教師節 還有你這個雙十節 中秋節 還有春假 這都連續假期啊遇到這種時候 你還要叫人家練習 都要去門診那對醫院裡面 大家叫苦連天啊 這你們都知道嘛那這種規定來講的話 合不合理\n255910\t279976\t報告委員 我們剛才也知道現在目前有這個廉價嘛那我也坦誠跟委員講我們確實在醫院人力的部分確實調配上來說有問題但是我們這個部分還是特別是我們的部立醫院的部分這個是我們國家職責所在我們還是會盡全力啦然後這裡面也會包括我們現在那個加成如果說在這個時候我們現在目前在研議\n280496\t288803\t有做加成的一個相關規定來讓我們的醫師能夠來符合這個需求但長期來說確實人力我們也必須要來做一個相對應的處理受刑人的人權當然要去保障這也都是對但是有時候跟實際上你造成這些醫療院所他實質上確實是人力這樣的一個短缺很嚴重的一個衝擊這個我們也必須要去正視第二個問題\n309279\t309820\t這個署長這個署長你會比較清楚\n328442\t331305\t你們有人欠很多嗎?你們欠到醫療院所,欠到病院就要來找我們立委說好,這樣監獄來找人來看看,看不看得到人家落職啊,衛福部次長我剛才忘了問你,你們那個部立醫院也是被欠了一大堆錢啊\n348305\t352327\t這樣才對 人家去看病 連鎖假日三天就要派人去看病 看過就算了都很好啦 因為我相信可能是考量到如果說這些受刑人要出來還要介乎很多的麻煩嘛所以連續假期三次都要開這個門診嘛但是我們看病看過之後 錢要給人啊\n368793\t395080\t報告委員醫院會跟機關催討這些醫療費用其實這不是機關欠醫院而是因為這些受刑人去看病以後他沒有錢付那沒有錢付我們要動用公益金之前我們必須要有完備的程序比如說打電話跟他的家人兒子說你爸爸有欠這筆錢你要來繳納\n397461\t403445\t那他兒子可能會講說我的收入有限我們要問很多的相關的問題你會碰到一個問題啦人家你們帶來啦你們帶來之後人家就要給你們看所以我們在完備程序之後其他的受刑人不會說不公平的前提下我們會召開所謂的合作社的會議然後看多少錢我們盡量的\n423460\t431708\t分這個梯次來給我們的醫療院所我們也希望跟醫院能夠合作愉快我唸給你聽在台東有台東監獄啦綠島監獄啦有看守所啦有戒治所啦技能訓練所有太原延淪到東城啦你看馬街醫院去京都\n446022\t451545\t泰元喔 你們泰元欠過的人嘛 欠過的人 你們看完了 你們怎麼欠少 你們100均2人欠十萬三千塊啦100均欠2人欠二十六萬一千五百八十五塊啦100均八年欠十七萬倍啦 100均九年欠到六萬倍 114年八萬多你就給人家欠了69萬多 那你現在欠費人家在吹角的金額到現在要上百萬啦\n472256\t475781\t你現在跟人家說不然你去找啊連續家屬 醫院才有人去找你第一 壽星冷卻以後\n480216\t487740\t不是請醫院去跟家屬去追繳而是由我們機關在打電話給家屬說你們要趕快來繳這筆錢如果說問過相關他的家屬都沒辦法繳之後那我們才會開會要不要動用公益金替這個受刑人來繳納那這個要公平不然其他的受刑人他會說他為什麼有特權\n508430\t528131\t阿我的重點是你們開了會 還是欠帳阿公益金有限阿 委員你要斷絕阿我們盡量能夠繳納 但是我們公益金其實有限我們公益金也要補助其他受薪人的營補費什麼不是專門提供欠費欠繳\n529893\t536698\t這樣講好了 你們這樣講完以後 保庭我是這樣記錄的 你們也知道這個情況啦那衛護部次長也在這個地方我會認為這樣對醫院來講是比較無辜一點啦那一般的民眾我來看扁 全民健保嘛 有些我讀的善良人嘛政府照顧我老伯生嘛 有些欠少難免嘛但是呢 我們機關又扮演一個 一定的一個角色是人 你叫我來 醫生嘛 跟你 我們\n559457\t563703\t政府部門簽約嘛你說連續三天假期叫我派人去去那門城我就真的騎了騎都看那個就不用錢的看那個就賴賬的這不好啦我覺得政府應該想辦法\n572335\t583963\t政府應該想辦法 我這個醫療院所 你說部立醫院 桃園部立醫院你也選八百萬嘛 那個政府的 那個政府左手右手怎麼挪 那還另外一件事可是你涉及到不是政府部門的 你說因為我有開會啦 我什麼都做啦 那就不繳啊 所以我也沒辦法啊人家在說企業就是 都不要跟我們合資 你不要來看 不要叫我們企\n599670\t619979\t有沒有道理我認為要解決啦怎麼論述我沒意見啦我是認為讓人家這樣一直掛在那個地方齁讓人家產生這樣的一個怨言齁這也不好啦你們都認為合作很愉快啦可是沒有收到錢的時候人家真的是不愉快啦是 我要報告委員我們不管是衛福部或是保護部其實針對受刑人自從102年加入二代健保之後我們都有編列這些經費一些經費來做一些開支\n629343\t635950\t所以我們並不是說想要賴賬那是受刑人欠的但是我們會公平起見去做應該完備程序之後我們再來繳納\n650726\t660974\t我知道是 署長我知道是受刑人欠的啦但我的意思是說實質上經過你們這樣子開會甚至他的作業基金在監獄裡面工作的錢先把它扣掉給他是 這些都該做的我的重點是最後這幾年連續這樣給人家掛在帳簽人情不好看\n674406\t690275\t是我們盡量來要求我們所屬機關在相關的公益金 我們的合作社會議裡面盡量能夠通過 用公益金來繳納這些費用我只要求一個啦 趕快啦 趕快啦 金剛行調 正部長先請回我請我們警政署署長 今天的議題啊\n697728\t707138\t其實很大的一個議題啦針對青少年這個刑案的嫌疑人這個人數一直在創高啦\n709164\t736465\t我不曉得你的感慨是什麼因為站在警察機關我們本來就是要打擊犯罪你也不可能說他因為青少年你犯了罪了這一些我都給我都沒看到該做的我們還是要去做那其實我是看到2023年新北那個國中生拿台灣刀去刺死隔壁的同學當然反而現在審理當中那像這種案件\n737472\t748927\t我都有一個很大的感觸就是說那個青少年他去到案以後他去自述啊他案後他自述他自己常常都有帶刀上學這樣的一個習慣那其實這個時候啊\n753052\t765742\t這個時機其實就是少五分應該去介入的一個最好的一個時機可是呢我們去看我們去看就是說這幾年我們修法完以後少年事件處理法我們現在變成行政輔導先行上路那這個制度\n767563\t783559\t那到底有沒有去落實讓暴險少年不要一開始就進入到整個司法的一個體系那由行政體系先去介入輔導再評估司法移送法院我想問的就是說你們現在人力的部分結構上你當一個署長你看到這個問題地方上這樣能量\n789738\t793827\t到底夠不夠 實際上在第一線工作各縣市的少年輔導組 我給你看看 組成\n798329\t825370\t這一個結構裡面大部分還是我們警察機關啦我不知道你對這個看法可不可以簡單做一個回答好那這個是在112年7月開始上路就是不僅少年的行政輔導先行那現在全國的這個少府會的這個全國的這個人力大概260幾個那在113年的流動率是偏高的那這個組織裡面除了台北市\n826531\t846061\t看起來就是他自己市政府有補助比較健全其他各縣市政府的消費大概由這個市安網來做補助確實市長台東三個我確實就是這些人力上有一些是要又再做增加我想這個這個部分另外是\n846781\t865827\t因為上午會的這個功能不是司法單位啦就是作為輔導單位我覺得有在做這一些健全的一個空間那我們這個部分因為是110人開始做施行未來可能要逐步在做檢討在人力他們的待遇或者是在他們的這一些的\n866747\t887949\t功能上在做加強因為他輔導的目前每個人開案大概是在10個左右啦每個輔導大概10個左右那目前的這個量能初步大概是這樣子那我想就是他主要的這個有三個面向第一個剛剛委員所提的這個無故攜帶器無故攜帶這個器械\n889691\t912696\t或者是這些這個毒品沒有犯刑示範就是所謂三級毒品或者是預備犯若或者是這些的一個未遂犯這個都是列在於我們這個不省少年這個輔導先行的這個範圍裡面所以就是你現在基層能量不夠對 這個量能應該不太夠來看下一張 要怎麼做充實現在就是說\n915376\t938703\t曝險少年 這個不是早退 現在不是說早退 還是我蹺課就像剛剛署長你講的 現在很多涉及到刀械 私用毒品 還有預備犯罪那你現在的少府會 你也沒有這個強制的權利啦所以你這個很麻煩 就是針對這種高風險的個案你有明確的行政流程應變的機制跟責任分工嗎\n939923\t943906\t這個我還要問你以前你現在偏差的行為那個太樣太多太多啦你一個市權沒有辦法去做一個做一個你要怎麼去做一個協調比如說各地方政府裡面一大堆相關的資源單位交易局你說中促的輔導這個婦苗專案社會局還有兒少保護家房中心 園民局處還有提供部落家庭的支持衛福部 心理 警政你這個整個市權裡面\n970286\t990076\t處處去交錯,你少五會不僅需要去協調所有單位,你還有先議權所以現在你制度實行下來,該道路是好好去檢討的時候了對,我跟你講,就是說這些青少年的問題,有牽涉到他處罰的\n992098\t1009478\t有牽涉他父親少年 有牽涉他偏差行為有牽涉到忠厝這些行為 都散佈在各部會所以未來就是說 現在目前的這個父親少年這個善良輔導先行 可能牽涉他跟成年犯結合在一起\n1010438\t1039119\t兩個是又分開的所以實施到現在剛剛在這個有些委員質詢的時候我覺得就是這個部分未來有檢討的空間看怎麼要來做整合這個最麻煩在哪裡我講我的感觸給你聽就是說我們變成我們警政單位扮演的角色他其實是最重的啦扮演的角色最重可是呢對這一些少年來講的話他對你們又是最排斥的\n1040185\t1042307\t又是最排斥的 所以說像這樣子的話 要安裝給少府會 還有警政機關繼續這樣擔當這麼重要的一個角色這個缺點其實是很明確 所以重新去檢討 去選定組織機關的歸屬\n1060984\t1078084\t我認為真的要好好去討論在立法院裡面因為時間都很短本來這個議題可以好好來做討論我也不敢耽誤其他委員太過多的一個時間那剛好實行完了那這一段時間完以後整個制度沒有去檢討真的不行你把它想想看\n1079125\t1097112\t在立法院的氛圍裡面只要涉及到重大犯罪的時候大家要求警政機關裡面在幹什麼趕快去打擊犯罪然後碰到只要是青少年大家一看警察局你可能會講說你不是叫我去打擊犯罪我打擊犯罪成果給你啦現在出來你還欺負說我那裡沒做到那裡沒做到那裡沒做到少府會這樣的一個本來是一個協調過程的一個平台但是卡關了啦人也不夠啦權責也都不清啦\n1109077\t1126651\t我期待應該跟衛福部大家好好跟整個教育部好好做這個制度真的是到真的不得不趕快讓一個檢討出一個新的制度否則我們會看到青少年犯罪我跟你講還會再飆升要加油好不好好謝謝謝委員好那我們\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請我們法務部政務部長麻煩法務部政務部長還有衛福部旅次長衛福部旅次長矯正署周署長周署長\n其實我早上聽了這麼多委員的諮詢,憑立法院這些老代要處理今天這個議題,那是沒有能力的青少年犯罪這樣的一個飆升,那確實是一個警訊\n青少年當然是國家未來的一個棟樑可是這個棟樑如果涉及到犯罪的話又是法務部的一個職長當然要去打擊犯罪所以這個問題環環相扣但是本集倒想先請教幾個問題早上我看大家一直連召委也\n霍進來在問這個黃國昌委員這樣的一個質詢到底是不是有涉及到犯罪的一個問題大家聲音講得都很大聲但是我覺得這個議題是在野黨耍老千的一個議題\n憲法第73條明文就給你規定立法委員在院內的一個言論跟表決對院外他其實是不負責任這個其實有言論免責權的問題甚至於連在野黨都已經跟你聯手了在整個會期本來是延到7月31號現在又延到8月31號按照我們憲法徵修條文第4條第8項的前段\n立法委員你除了現行犯以外除了現行犯以外在會期裡面沒有經過因為許可你也沒有辦法去逮捕他所以這個是一連串的我會覺得在立法院裡面要去追究這樣的一個法律上的責任困難\n比登天還難啊這個我倒認為是屬於一個國會自律啊或者說個人要負政治責任的問題啦我不曉得部長你的看法怎麼樣那個的確我們這些的一個我們是不樂見外面希望說立法委員我們都理性問政那我們觀念也\n也來做一個回應但是如果說有這樣的一個委員所提到這情形我們是希望就是我們尊重委員的一些的寶貴意見是啦 我們都希望在國會裡面其實都可以通過一些更好的\n福利民生的法案當然對行政部門那監督當然是這個本來就是一個職責但是我要請教一個問題就是說我們現在在整個矯正體制裡面我們又設了很多監獄那設了很多監獄只要是人都會生病怕不料都要傳一款醫生我想請教衛福部衛福部次長那我們現在現在我們碰到了一個問題就是說\n針對連續假期連續假期連續三天我們到我們這個不管是部立醫院或者說民間的醫療機構我們會請醫生到這個矯正機關到監獄裡面去醫生要去看病\n你連續三天 連續假期三天你就開始要擺儀先起這樣的一個規定連續假三天的假 連假只要有三天的話你就必須要有門診\n那你接下來會碰到一個問題喔 你教師節 還有你這個雙十節 中秋節 還有春假 這都連續假期啊遇到這種時候 你還要叫人家練習 都要去門診那對醫院裡面 大家叫苦連天啊 這你們都知道嘛那這種規定來講的話 合不合理\n報告委員 我們剛才也知道現在目前有這個廉價嘛那我也坦誠跟委員講我們確實在醫院人力的部分確實調配上來說有問題但是我們這個部分還是特別是我們的部立醫院的部分這個是我們國家職責所在我們還是會盡全力啦然後這裡面也會包括我們現在那個加成如果說在這個時候我們現在目前在研議\n有做加成的一個相關規定來讓我們的醫師能夠來符合這個需求但長期來說確實人力我們也必須要來做一個相對應的處理受刑人的人權當然要去保障這也都是對但是有時候跟實際上你造成這些醫療院所他實質上確實是人力這樣的一個短缺很嚴重的一個衝擊這個我們也必須要去正視第二個問題\n這個署長這個署長你會比較清楚\n你們有人欠很多嗎?你們欠到醫療院所,欠到病院就要來找我們立委說好,這樣監獄來找人來看看,看不看得到人家落職啊,衛福部次長我剛才忘了問你,你們那個部立醫院也是被欠了一大堆錢啊\n這樣才對 人家去看病 連鎖假日三天就要派人去看病 看過就算了都很好啦 因為我相信可能是考量到如果說這些受刑人要出來還要介乎很多的麻煩嘛所以連續假期三次都要開這個門診嘛但是我們看病看過之後 錢要給人啊\n報告委員醫院會跟機關催討這些醫療費用其實這不是機關欠醫院而是因為這些受刑人去看病以後他沒有錢付那沒有錢付我們要動用公益金之前我們必須要有完備的程序比如說打電話跟他的家人兒子說你爸爸有欠這筆錢你要來繳納\n那他兒子可能會講說我的收入有限我們要問很多的相關的問題你會碰到一個問題啦人家你們帶來啦你們帶來之後人家就要給你們看所以我們在完備程序之後其他的受刑人不會說不公平的前提下我們會召開所謂的合作社的會議然後看多少錢我們盡量的\n分這個梯次來給我們的醫療院所我們也希望跟醫院能夠合作愉快我唸給你聽在台東有台東監獄啦綠島監獄啦有看守所啦有戒治所啦技能訓練所有太原延淪到東城啦你看馬街醫院去京都\n泰元喔 你們泰元欠過的人嘛 欠過的人 你們看完了 你們怎麼欠少 你們100均2人欠十萬三千塊啦100均欠2人欠二十六萬一千五百八十五塊啦100均八年欠十七萬倍啦 100均九年欠到六萬倍 114年八萬多你就給人家欠了69萬多 那你現在欠費人家在吹角的金額到現在要上百萬啦\n你現在跟人家說不然你去找啊連續家屬 醫院才有人去找你第一 壽星冷卻以後\n不是請醫院去跟家屬去追繳而是由我們機關在打電話給家屬說你們要趕快來繳這筆錢如果說問過相關他的家屬都沒辦法繳之後那我們才會開會要不要動用公益金替這個受刑人來繳納那這個要公平不然其他的受刑人他會說他為什麼有特權\n阿我的重點是你們開了會 還是欠帳阿公益金有限阿 委員你要斷絕阿我們盡量能夠繳納 但是我們公益金其實有限我們公益金也要補助其他受薪人的營補費什麼不是專門提供欠費欠繳\n這樣講好了 你們這樣講完以後 保庭我是這樣記錄的 你們也知道這個情況啦那衛護部次長也在這個地方我會認為這樣對醫院來講是比較無辜一點啦那一般的民眾我來看扁 全民健保嘛 有些我讀的善良人嘛政府照顧我老伯生嘛 有些欠少難免嘛但是呢 我們機關又扮演一個 一定的一個角色是人 你叫我來 醫生嘛 跟你 我們\n政府部門簽約嘛你說連續三天假期叫我派人去去那門城我就真的騎了騎都看那個就不用錢的看那個就賴賬的這不好啦我覺得政府應該想辦法\n政府應該想辦法 我這個醫療院所 你說部立醫院 桃園部立醫院你也選八百萬嘛 那個政府的 那個政府左手右手怎麼挪 那還另外一件事可是你涉及到不是政府部門的 你說因為我有開會啦 我什麼都做啦 那就不繳啊 所以我也沒辦法啊人家在說企業就是 都不要跟我們合資 你不要來看 不要叫我們企\n有沒有道理我認為要解決啦怎麼論述我沒意見啦我是認為讓人家這樣一直掛在那個地方齁讓人家產生這樣的一個怨言齁這也不好啦你們都認為合作很愉快啦可是沒有收到錢的時候人家真的是不愉快啦是 我要報告委員我們不管是衛福部或是保護部其實針對受刑人自從102年加入二代健保之後我們都有編列這些經費一些經費來做一些開支\n所以我們並不是說想要賴賬那是受刑人欠的但是我們會公平起見去做應該完備程序之後我們再來繳納\n我知道是 署長我知道是受刑人欠的啦但我的意思是說實質上經過你們這樣子開會甚至他的作業基金在監獄裡面工作的錢先把它扣掉給他是 這些都該做的我的重點是最後這幾年連續這樣給人家掛在帳簽人情不好看\n是我們盡量來要求我們所屬機關在相關的公益金 我們的合作社會議裡面盡量能夠通過 用公益金來繳納這些費用我只要求一個啦 趕快啦 趕快啦 金剛行調 正部長先請回我請我們警政署署長 今天的議題啊\n其實很大的一個議題啦針對青少年這個刑案的嫌疑人這個人數一直在創高啦\n我不曉得你的感慨是什麼因為站在警察機關我們本來就是要打擊犯罪你也不可能說他因為青少年你犯了罪了這一些我都給我都沒看到該做的我們還是要去做那其實我是看到2023年新北那個國中生拿台灣刀去刺死隔壁的同學當然反而現在審理當中那像這種案件\n我都有一個很大的感觸就是說那個青少年他去到案以後他去自述啊他案後他自述他自己常常都有帶刀上學這樣的一個習慣那其實這個時候啊\n這個時機其實就是少五分應該去介入的一個最好的一個時機可是呢我們去看我們去看就是說這幾年我們修法完以後少年事件處理法我們現在變成行政輔導先行上路那這個制度\n那到底有沒有去落實讓暴險少年不要一開始就進入到整個司法的一個體系那由行政體系先去介入輔導再評估司法移送法院我想問的就是說你們現在人力的部分結構上你當一個署長你看到這個問題地方上這樣能量\n到底夠不夠 實際上在第一線工作各縣市的少年輔導組 我給你看看 組成\n這一個結構裡面大部分還是我們警察機關啦我不知道你對這個看法可不可以簡單做一個回答好那這個是在112年7月開始上路就是不僅少年的行政輔導先行那現在全國的這個少府會的這個全國的這個人力大概260幾個那在113年的流動率是偏高的那這個組織裡面除了台北市\n看起來就是他自己市政府有補助比較健全其他各縣市政府的消費大概由這個市安網來做補助確實市長台東三個我確實就是這些人力上有一些是要又再做增加我想這個這個部分另外是\n因為上午會的這個功能不是司法單位啦就是作為輔導單位我覺得有在做這一些健全的一個空間那我們這個部分因為是110人開始做施行未來可能要逐步在做檢討在人力他們的待遇或者是在他們的這一些的\n功能上在做加強因為他輔導的目前每個人開案大概是在10個左右啦每個輔導大概10個左右那目前的這個量能初步大概是這樣子那我想就是他主要的這個有三個面向第一個剛剛委員所提的這個無故攜帶器無故攜帶這個器械\n或者是這些這個毒品沒有犯刑示範就是所謂三級毒品或者是預備犯若或者是這些的一個未遂犯這個都是列在於我們這個不省少年這個輔導先行的這個範圍裡面所以就是你現在基層能量不夠對 這個量能應該不太夠來看下一張 要怎麼做充實現在就是說\n曝險少年 這個不是早退 現在不是說早退 還是我蹺課就像剛剛署長你講的 現在很多涉及到刀械 私用毒品 還有預備犯罪那你現在的少府會 你也沒有這個強制的權利啦所以你這個很麻煩 就是針對這種高風險的個案你有明確的行政流程應變的機制跟責任分工嗎\n這個我還要問你以前你現在偏差的行為那個太樣太多太多啦你一個市權沒有辦法去做一個做一個你要怎麼去做一個協調比如說各地方政府裡面一大堆相關的資源單位交易局你說中促的輔導這個婦苗專案社會局還有兒少保護家房中心 園民局處還有提供部落家庭的支持衛福部 心理 警政你這個整個市權裡面\n處處去交錯,你少五會不僅需要去協調所有單位,你還有先議權所以現在你制度實行下來,該道路是好好去檢討的時候了對,我跟你講,就是說這些青少年的問題,有牽涉到他處罰的\n有牽涉他父親少年 有牽涉他偏差行為有牽涉到忠厝這些行為 都散佈在各部會所以未來就是說 現在目前的這個父親少年這個善良輔導先行 可能牽涉他跟成年犯結合在一起\n兩個是又分開的所以實施到現在剛剛在這個有些委員質詢的時候我覺得就是這個部分未來有檢討的空間看怎麼要來做整合這個最麻煩在哪裡我講我的感觸給你聽就是說我們變成我們警政單位扮演的角色他其實是最重的啦扮演的角色最重可是呢對這一些少年來講的話他對你們又是最排斥的\n又是最排斥的 所以說像這樣子的話 要安裝給少府會 還有警政機關繼續這樣擔當這麼重要的一個角色這個缺點其實是很明確 所以重新去檢討 去選定組織機關的歸屬\n我認為真的要好好去討論在立法院裡面因為時間都很短本來這個議題可以好好來做討論我也不敢耽誤其他委員太過多的一個時間那剛好實行完了那這一段時間完以後整個制度沒有去檢討真的不行你把它想想看\n在立法院的氛圍裡面只要涉及到重大犯罪的時候大家要求警政機關裡面在幹什麼趕快去打擊犯罪然後碰到只要是青少年大家一看警察局你可能會講說你不是叫我去打擊犯罪我打擊犯罪成果給你啦現在出來你還欺負說我那裡沒做到那裡沒做到那裡沒做到少府會這樣的一個本來是一個協調過程的一個平台但是卡關了啦人也不夠啦權責也都不清啦\n我期待應該跟衛福部大家好好跟整個教育部好好做這個制度真的是到真的不得不趕快讓一個檢討出一個新的制度否則我們會看到青少年犯罪我跟你講還會再飆升要加油好不好好謝謝謝委員好那我們\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.219 --> 00:23.276\n謝謝主席有請我們法務部政務部長麻煩法務部政務部長還有衛福部旅次長衛福部旅次長矯正署周署長周署長\n\n00:27.855 --> 00:42.886\n其實我早上聽了這麼多委員的諮詢,憑立法院這些老代要處理今天這個議題,那是沒有能力的青少年犯罪這樣的一個飆升,那確實是一個警訊\n\n00:45.968 --> 00:53.675\n青少年當然是國家未來的一個棟樑可是這個棟樑如果涉及到犯罪的話又是法務部的一個職長當然要去打擊犯罪所以這個問題環環相扣但是本集倒想先請教幾個問題早上我看大家一直連召委也\n\n01:03.644 --> 01:17.842\n霍進來在問這個黃國昌委員這樣的一個質詢到底是不是有涉及到犯罪的一個問題大家聲音講得都很大聲但是我覺得這個議題是在野黨耍老千的一個議題\n\n01:19.704 --> 01:44.282\n憲法第73條明文就給你規定立法委員在院內的一個言論跟表決對院外他其實是不負責任這個其實有言論免責權的問題甚至於連在野黨都已經跟你聯手了在整個會期本來是延到7月31號現在又延到8月31號按照我們憲法徵修條文第4條第8項的前段\n\n01:46.784 --> 02:06.894\n立法委員你除了現行犯以外除了現行犯以外在會期裡面沒有經過因為許可你也沒有辦法去逮捕他所以這個是一連串的我會覺得在立法院裡面要去追究這樣的一個法律上的責任困難\n\n02:08.274 --> 02:12.596\n比登天還難啊這個我倒認為是屬於一個國會自律啊或者說個人要負政治責任的問題啦我不曉得部長你的看法怎麼樣那個的確我們這些的一個我們是不樂見外面希望說立法委員我們都理性問政那我們觀念也\n\n02:27.541 --> 02:43.947\n也來做一個回應但是如果說有這樣的一個委員所提到這情形我們是希望就是我們尊重委員的一些的寶貴意見是啦我們都希望在國會裡面其實都可以通過一些更好的\n\n02:45.632 --> 03:13.952\n福利民生的法案當然對行政部門那監督當然是這個本來就是一個職責但是我要請教一個問題就是說我們現在在整個矯正體制裡面我們又設了很多監獄那設了很多監獄只要是人都會生病怕不料都要傳一款醫生我想請教衛福部衛福部次長那我們現在現在我們碰到了一個問題就是說\n\n03:18.195 --> 03:26.561\n針對連續假期連續假期連續三天我們到我們這個不管是部立醫院或者說民間的醫療機構我們會請醫生到這個矯正機關到監獄裡面去醫生要去看病\n\n03:34.307 --> 03:38.790\n你連續三天連續假期三天你就開始要擺儀先起這樣的一個規定連續假三天的假連假只要有三天的話你就必須要有門診\n\n03:50.558 --> 04:03.125\n那你接下來會碰到一個問題喔你教師節還有你這個雙十節中秋節還有春假這都連續假期啊遇到這種時候你還要叫人家練習都要去門診那對醫院裡面大家叫苦連天啊這你們都知道嘛那這種規定來講的話合不合理\n\n04:15.910 --> 04:39.976\n報告委員我們剛才也知道現在目前有這個廉價嘛那我也坦誠跟委員講我們確實在醫院人力的部分確實調配上來說有問題但是我們這個部分還是特別是我們的部立醫院的部分這個是我們國家職責所在我們還是會盡全力啦然後這裡面也會包括我們現在那個加成如果說在這個時候我們現在目前在研議\n\n04:40.496 --> 04:48.803\n有做加成的一個相關規定來讓我們的醫師能夠來符合這個需求但長期來說確實人力我們也必須要來做一個相對應的處理受刑人的人權當然要去保障這也都是對但是有時候跟實際上你造成這些醫療院所他實質上確實是人力這樣的一個短缺很嚴重的一個衝擊這個我們也必須要去正視第二個問題\n\n05:09.279 --> 05:09.820\n這個署長這個署長你會比較清楚\n\n05:28.442 --> 05:31.305\n你們有人欠很多嗎?你們欠到醫療院所,欠到病院就要來找我們立委說好,這樣監獄來找人來看看,看不看得到人家落職啊,衛福部次長我剛才忘了問你,你們那個部立醫院也是被欠了一大堆錢啊\n\n05:48.305 --> 05:52.327\n這樣才對人家去看病連鎖假日三天就要派人去看病看過就算了都很好啦因為我相信可能是考量到如果說這些受刑人要出來還要介乎很多的麻煩嘛所以連續假期三次都要開這個門診嘛但是我們看病看過之後錢要給人啊\n\n06:08.793 --> 06:35.080\n報告委員醫院會跟機關催討這些醫療費用其實這不是機關欠醫院而是因為這些受刑人去看病以後他沒有錢付那沒有錢付我們要動用公益金之前我們必須要有完備的程序比如說打電話跟他的家人兒子說你爸爸有欠這筆錢你要來繳納\n\n06:37.461 --> 06:43.445\n那他兒子可能會講說我的收入有限我們要問很多的相關的問題你會碰到一個問題啦人家你們帶來啦你們帶來之後人家就要給你們看所以我們在完備程序之後其他的受刑人不會說不公平的前提下我們會召開所謂的合作社的會議然後看多少錢我們盡量的\n\n07:03.460 --> 07:11.708\n分這個梯次來給我們的醫療院所我們也希望跟醫院能夠合作愉快我唸給你聽在台東有台東監獄啦綠島監獄啦有看守所啦有戒治所啦技能訓練所有太原延淪到東城啦你看馬街醫院去京都\n\n07:26.022 --> 07:31.545\n泰元喔你們泰元欠過的人嘛欠過的人你們看完了你們怎麼欠少你們100均2人欠十萬三千塊啦100均欠2人欠二十六萬一千五百八十五塊啦100均八年欠十七萬倍啦100均九年欠到六萬倍114年八萬多你就給人家欠了69萬多那你現在欠費人家在吹角的金額到現在要上百萬啦\n\n07:52.256 --> 07:55.781\n你現在跟人家說不然你去找啊連續家屬醫院才有人去找你第一壽星冷卻以後\n\n08:00.216 --> 08:07.740\n不是請醫院去跟家屬去追繳而是由我們機關在打電話給家屬說你們要趕快來繳這筆錢如果說問過相關他的家屬都沒辦法繳之後那我們才會開會要不要動用公益金替這個受刑人來繳納那這個要公平不然其他的受刑人他會說他為什麼有特權\n\n08:28.430 --> 08:48.131\n阿我的重點是你們開了會還是欠帳阿公益金有限阿委員你要斷絕阿我們盡量能夠繳納但是我們公益金其實有限我們公益金也要補助其他受薪人的營補費什麼不是專門提供欠費欠繳\n\n08:49.893 --> 08:56.698\n這樣講好了你們這樣講完以後保庭我是這樣記錄的你們也知道這個情況啦那衛護部次長也在這個地方我會認為這樣對醫院來講是比較無辜一點啦那一般的民眾我來看扁全民健保嘛有些我讀的善良人嘛政府照顧我老伯生嘛有些欠少難免嘛但是呢我們機關又扮演一個一定的一個角色是人你叫我來醫生嘛跟你我們\n\n09:19.457 --> 09:23.703\n政府部門簽約嘛你說連續三天假期叫我派人去去那門城我就真的騎了騎都看那個就不用錢的看那個就賴賬的這不好啦我覺得政府應該想辦法\n\n09:32.335 --> 09:43.963\n政府應該想辦法我這個醫療院所你說部立醫院桃園部立醫院你也選八百萬嘛那個政府的那個政府左手右手怎麼挪那還另外一件事可是你涉及到不是政府部門的你說因為我有開會啦我什麼都做啦那就不繳啊所以我也沒辦法啊人家在說企業就是都不要跟我們合資你不要來看不要叫我們企\n\n09:59.670 --> 10:19.979\n有沒有道理我認為要解決啦怎麼論述我沒意見啦我是認為讓人家這樣一直掛在那個地方齁讓人家產生這樣的一個怨言齁這也不好啦你們都認為合作很愉快啦可是沒有收到錢的時候人家真的是不愉快啦是我要報告委員我們不管是衛福部或是保護部其實針對受刑人自從102年加入二代健保之後我們都有編列這些經費一些經費來做一些開支\n\n10:29.343 --> 10:35.950\n所以我們並不是說想要賴賬那是受刑人欠的但是我們會公平起見去做應該完備程序之後我們再來繳納\n\n10:50.726 --> 11:00.974\n我知道是署長我知道是受刑人欠的啦但我的意思是說實質上經過你們這樣子開會甚至他的作業基金在監獄裡面工作的錢先把它扣掉給他是這些都該做的我的重點是最後這幾年連續這樣給人家掛在帳簽人情不好看\n\n11:14.406 --> 11:30.275\n是我們盡量來要求我們所屬機關在相關的公益金我們的合作社會議裡面盡量能夠通過用公益金來繳納這些費用我只要求一個啦趕快啦趕快啦金剛行調正部長先請回我請我們警政署署長今天的議題啊\n\n11:37.728 --> 11:47.138\n其實很大的一個議題啦針對青少年這個刑案的嫌疑人這個人數一直在創高啦\n\n11:49.164 --> 12:16.465\n我不曉得你的感慨是什麼因為站在警察機關我們本來就是要打擊犯罪你也不可能說他因為青少年你犯了罪了這一些我都給我都沒看到該做的我們還是要去做那其實我是看到2023年新北那個國中生拿台灣刀去刺死隔壁的同學當然反而現在審理當中那像這種案件\n\n12:17.472 --> 12:28.927\n我都有一個很大的感觸就是說那個青少年他去到案以後他去自述啊他案後他自述他自己常常都有帶刀上學這樣的一個習慣那其實這個時候啊\n\n12:33.052 --> 12:45.742\n這個時機其實就是少五分應該去介入的一個最好的一個時機可是呢我們去看我們去看就是說這幾年我們修法完以後少年事件處理法我們現在變成行政輔導先行上路那這個制度\n\n12:47.563 --> 13:03.559\n那到底有沒有去落實讓暴險少年不要一開始就進入到整個司法的一個體系那由行政體系先去介入輔導再評估司法移送法院我想問的就是說你們現在人力的部分結構上你當一個署長你看到這個問題地方上這樣能量\n\n13:09.738 --> 13:13.827\n到底夠不夠實際上在第一線工作各縣市的少年輔導組我給你看看組成\n\n13:18.329 --> 13:45.370\n這一個結構裡面大部分還是我們警察機關啦我不知道你對這個看法可不可以簡單做一個回答好那這個是在112年7月開始上路就是不僅少年的行政輔導先行那現在全國的這個少府會的這個全國的這個人力大概260幾個那在113年的流動率是偏高的那這個組織裡面除了台北市\n\n13:46.531 --> 14:06.061\n看起來就是他自己市政府有補助比較健全其他各縣市政府的消費大概由這個市安網來做補助確實市長台東三個我確實就是這些人力上有一些是要又再做增加我想這個這個部分另外是\n\n14:06.781 --> 14:25.827\n因為上午會的這個功能不是司法單位啦就是作為輔導單位我覺得有在做這一些健全的一個空間那我們這個部分因為是110人開始做施行未來可能要逐步在做檢討在人力他們的待遇或者是在他們的這一些的\n\n14:26.747 --> 14:47.949\n功能上在做加強因為他輔導的目前每個人開案大概是在10個左右啦每個輔導大概10個左右那目前的這個量能初步大概是這樣子那我想就是他主要的這個有三個面向第一個剛剛委員所提的這個無故攜帶器無故攜帶這個器械\n\n14:49.691 --> 15:12.696\n或者是這些這個毒品沒有犯刑示範就是所謂三級毒品或者是預備犯若或者是這些的一個未遂犯這個都是列在於我們這個不省少年這個輔導先行的這個範圍裡面所以就是你現在基層能量不夠對這個量能應該不太夠來看下一張要怎麼做充實現在就是說\n\n15:15.376 --> 15:38.703\n曝險少年這個不是早退現在不是說早退還是我蹺課就像剛剛署長你講的現在很多涉及到刀械私用毒品還有預備犯罪那你現在的少府會你也沒有這個強制的權利啦所以你這個很麻煩就是針對這種高風險的個案你有明確的行政流程應變的機制跟責任分工嗎\n\n15:39.923 --> 15:43.906\n這個我還要問你以前你現在偏差的行為那個太樣太多太多啦你一個市權沒有辦法去做一個做一個你要怎麼去做一個協調比如說各地方政府裡面一大堆相關的資源單位交易局你說中促的輔導這個婦苗專案社會局還有兒少保護家房中心園民局處還有提供部落家庭的支持衛福部心理警政你這個整個市權裡面\n\n16:10.286 --> 16:30.076\n處處去交錯,你少五會不僅需要去協調所有單位,你還有先議權所以現在你制度實行下來,該道路是好好去檢討的時候了對,我跟你講,就是說這些青少年的問題,有牽涉到他處罰的\n\n16:32.098 --> 16:49.478\n有牽涉他父親少年有牽涉他偏差行為有牽涉到忠厝這些行為都散佈在各部會所以未來就是說現在目前的這個父親少年這個善良輔導先行可能牽涉他跟成年犯結合在一起\n\n16:50.438 --> 17:19.119\n兩個是又分開的所以實施到現在剛剛在這個有些委員質詢的時候我覺得就是這個部分未來有檢討的空間看怎麼要來做整合這個最麻煩在哪裡我講我的感觸給你聽就是說我們變成我們警政單位扮演的角色他其實是最重的啦扮演的角色最重可是呢對這一些少年來講的話他對你們又是最排斥的\n\n17:20.185 --> 17:22.307\n又是最排斥的所以說像這樣子的話要安裝給少府會還有警政機關繼續這樣擔當這麼重要的一個角色這個缺點其實是很明確所以重新去檢討去選定組織機關的歸屬\n\n17:40.984 --> 17:58.084\n我認為真的要好好去討論在立法院裡面因為時間都很短本來這個議題可以好好來做討論我也不敢耽誤其他委員太過多的一個時間那剛好實行完了那這一段時間完以後整個制度沒有去檢討真的不行你把它想想看\n\n17:59.125 --> 18:17.112\n在立法院的氛圍裡面只要涉及到重大犯罪的時候大家要求警政機關裡面在幹什麼趕快去打擊犯罪然後碰到只要是青少年大家一看警察局你可能會講說你不是叫我去打擊犯罪我打擊犯罪成果給你啦現在出來你還欺負說我那裡沒做到那裡沒做到那裡沒做到少府會這樣的一個本來是一個協調過程的一個平台但是卡關了啦人也不夠啦權責也都不清啦\n\n18:29.077 --> 18:46.651\n我期待應該跟衛福部大家好好跟整個教育部好好做這個制度真的是到真的不得不趕快讓一個檢討出一個新的制度否則我們會看到青少年犯罪我跟你講還會再飆升要加油好不好好謝謝謝委員好那我們\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.219,"end":23.276,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們法務部政務部長麻煩法務部政務部長還有衛福部旅次長衛福部旅次長矯正署周署長周署長"},{"start":27.855,"end":42.886,"text":"其實我早上聽了這麼多委員的諮詢,憑立法院這些老代要處理今天這個議題,那是沒有能力的青少年犯罪這樣的一個飆升,那確實是一個警訊"},{"start":45.968,"end":53.675,"text":"青少年當然是國家未來的一個棟樑可是這個棟樑如果涉及到犯罪的話又是法務部的一個職長當然要去打擊犯罪所以這個問題環環相扣但是本集倒想先請教幾個問題早上我看大家一直連召委也"},{"start":63.644,"end":77.842,"text":"霍進來在問這個黃國昌委員這樣的一個質詢到底是不是有涉及到犯罪的一個問題大家聲音講得都很大聲但是我覺得這個議題是在野黨耍老千的一個議題"},{"start":79.704,"end":104.282,"text":"憲法第73條明文就給你規定立法委員在院內的一個言論跟表決對院外他其實是不負責任這個其實有言論免責權的問題甚至於連在野黨都已經跟你聯手了在整個會期本來是延到7月31號現在又延到8月31號按照我們憲法徵修條文第4條第8項的前段"},{"start":106.784,"end":126.894,"text":"立法委員你除了現行犯以外除了現行犯以外在會期裡面沒有經過因為許可你也沒有辦法去逮捕他所以這個是一連串的我會覺得在立法院裡面要去追究這樣的一個法律上的責任困難"},{"start":128.274,"end":132.596,"text":"比登天還難啊這個我倒認為是屬於一個國會自律啊或者說個人要負政治責任的問題啦我不曉得部長你的看法怎麼樣那個的確我們這些的一個我們是不樂見外面希望說立法委員我們都理性問政那我們觀念也"},{"start":147.541,"end":163.947,"text":"也來做一個回應但是如果說有這樣的一個委員所提到這情形我們是希望就是我們尊重委員的一些的寶貴意見是啦 我們都希望在國會裡面其實都可以通過一些更好的"},{"start":165.632,"end":193.952,"text":"福利民生的法案當然對行政部門那監督當然是這個本來就是一個職責但是我要請教一個問題就是說我們現在在整個矯正體制裡面我們又設了很多監獄那設了很多監獄只要是人都會生病怕不料都要傳一款醫生我想請教衛福部衛福部次長那我們現在現在我們碰到了一個問題就是說"},{"start":198.195,"end":206.561,"text":"針對連續假期連續假期連續三天我們到我們這個不管是部立醫院或者說民間的醫療機構我們會請醫生到這個矯正機關到監獄裡面去醫生要去看病"},{"start":214.307,"end":218.79,"text":"你連續三天 連續假期三天你就開始要擺儀先起這樣的一個規定連續假三天的假 連假只要有三天的話你就必須要有門診"},{"start":230.558,"end":243.125,"text":"那你接下來會碰到一個問題喔 你教師節 還有你這個雙十節 中秋節 還有春假 這都連續假期啊遇到這種時候 你還要叫人家練習 都要去門診那對醫院裡面 大家叫苦連天啊 這你們都知道嘛那這種規定來講的話 合不合理"},{"start":255.91,"end":279.976,"text":"報告委員 我們剛才也知道現在目前有這個廉價嘛那我也坦誠跟委員講我們確實在醫院人力的部分確實調配上來說有問題但是我們這個部分還是特別是我們的部立醫院的部分這個是我們國家職責所在我們還是會盡全力啦然後這裡面也會包括我們現在那個加成如果說在這個時候我們現在目前在研議"},{"start":280.496,"end":288.803,"text":"有做加成的一個相關規定來讓我們的醫師能夠來符合這個需求但長期來說確實人力我們也必須要來做一個相對應的處理受刑人的人權當然要去保障這也都是對但是有時候跟實際上你造成這些醫療院所他實質上確實是人力這樣的一個短缺很嚴重的一個衝擊這個我們也必須要去正視第二個問題"},{"start":309.279,"end":309.82,"text":"這個署長這個署長你會比較清楚"},{"start":328.442,"end":331.305,"text":"你們有人欠很多嗎?你們欠到醫療院所,欠到病院就要來找我們立委說好,這樣監獄來找人來看看,看不看得到人家落職啊,衛福部次長我剛才忘了問你,你們那個部立醫院也是被欠了一大堆錢啊"},{"start":348.305,"end":352.327,"text":"這樣才對 人家去看病 連鎖假日三天就要派人去看病 看過就算了都很好啦 因為我相信可能是考量到如果說這些受刑人要出來還要介乎很多的麻煩嘛所以連續假期三次都要開這個門診嘛但是我們看病看過之後 錢要給人啊"},{"start":368.793,"end":395.08,"text":"報告委員醫院會跟機關催討這些醫療費用其實這不是機關欠醫院而是因為這些受刑人去看病以後他沒有錢付那沒有錢付我們要動用公益金之前我們必須要有完備的程序比如說打電話跟他的家人兒子說你爸爸有欠這筆錢你要來繳納"},{"start":397.461,"end":403.445,"text":"那他兒子可能會講說我的收入有限我們要問很多的相關的問題你會碰到一個問題啦人家你們帶來啦你們帶來之後人家就要給你們看所以我們在完備程序之後其他的受刑人不會說不公平的前提下我們會召開所謂的合作社的會議然後看多少錢我們盡量的"},{"start":423.46,"end":431.708,"text":"分這個梯次來給我們的醫療院所我們也希望跟醫院能夠合作愉快我唸給你聽在台東有台東監獄啦綠島監獄啦有看守所啦有戒治所啦技能訓練所有太原延淪到東城啦你看馬街醫院去京都"},{"start":446.022,"end":451.545,"text":"泰元喔 你們泰元欠過的人嘛 欠過的人 你們看完了 你們怎麼欠少 你們100均2人欠十萬三千塊啦100均欠2人欠二十六萬一千五百八十五塊啦100均八年欠十七萬倍啦 100均九年欠到六萬倍 114年八萬多你就給人家欠了69萬多 那你現在欠費人家在吹角的金額到現在要上百萬啦"},{"start":472.256,"end":475.781,"text":"你現在跟人家說不然你去找啊連續家屬 醫院才有人去找你第一 壽星冷卻以後"},{"start":480.216,"end":487.74,"text":"不是請醫院去跟家屬去追繳而是由我們機關在打電話給家屬說你們要趕快來繳這筆錢如果說問過相關他的家屬都沒辦法繳之後那我們才會開會要不要動用公益金替這個受刑人來繳納那這個要公平不然其他的受刑人他會說他為什麼有特權"},{"start":508.43,"end":528.131,"text":"阿我的重點是你們開了會 還是欠帳阿公益金有限阿 委員你要斷絕阿我們盡量能夠繳納 但是我們公益金其實有限我們公益金也要補助其他受薪人的營補費什麼不是專門提供欠費欠繳"},{"start":529.893,"end":536.698,"text":"這樣講好了 你們這樣講完以後 保庭我是這樣記錄的 你們也知道這個情況啦那衛護部次長也在這個地方我會認為這樣對醫院來講是比較無辜一點啦那一般的民眾我來看扁 全民健保嘛 有些我讀的善良人嘛政府照顧我老伯生嘛 有些欠少難免嘛但是呢 我們機關又扮演一個 一定的一個角色是人 你叫我來 醫生嘛 跟你 我們"},{"start":559.457,"end":563.703,"text":"政府部門簽約嘛你說連續三天假期叫我派人去去那門城我就真的騎了騎都看那個就不用錢的看那個就賴賬的這不好啦我覺得政府應該想辦法"},{"start":572.335,"end":583.963,"text":"政府應該想辦法 我這個醫療院所 你說部立醫院 桃園部立醫院你也選八百萬嘛 那個政府的 那個政府左手右手怎麼挪 那還另外一件事可是你涉及到不是政府部門的 你說因為我有開會啦 我什麼都做啦 那就不繳啊 所以我也沒辦法啊人家在說企業就是 都不要跟我們合資 你不要來看 不要叫我們企"},{"start":599.67,"end":619.979,"text":"有沒有道理我認為要解決啦怎麼論述我沒意見啦我是認為讓人家這樣一直掛在那個地方齁讓人家產生這樣的一個怨言齁這也不好啦你們都認為合作很愉快啦可是沒有收到錢的時候人家真的是不愉快啦是 我要報告委員我們不管是衛福部或是保護部其實針對受刑人自從102年加入二代健保之後我們都有編列這些經費一些經費來做一些開支"},{"start":629.343,"end":635.95,"text":"所以我們並不是說想要賴賬那是受刑人欠的但是我們會公平起見去做應該完備程序之後我們再來繳納"},{"start":650.726,"end":660.974,"text":"我知道是 署長我知道是受刑人欠的啦但我的意思是說實質上經過你們這樣子開會甚至他的作業基金在監獄裡面工作的錢先把它扣掉給他是 這些都該做的我的重點是最後這幾年連續這樣給人家掛在帳簽人情不好看"},{"start":674.406,"end":690.275,"text":"是我們盡量來要求我們所屬機關在相關的公益金 我們的合作社會議裡面盡量能夠通過 用公益金來繳納這些費用我只要求一個啦 趕快啦 趕快啦 金剛行調 正部長先請回我請我們警政署署長 今天的議題啊"},{"start":697.728,"end":707.138,"text":"其實很大的一個議題啦針對青少年這個刑案的嫌疑人這個人數一直在創高啦"},{"start":709.164,"end":736.465,"text":"我不曉得你的感慨是什麼因為站在警察機關我們本來就是要打擊犯罪你也不可能說他因為青少年你犯了罪了這一些我都給我都沒看到該做的我們還是要去做那其實我是看到2023年新北那個國中生拿台灣刀去刺死隔壁的同學當然反而現在審理當中那像這種案件"},{"start":737.472,"end":748.927,"text":"我都有一個很大的感觸就是說那個青少年他去到案以後他去自述啊他案後他自述他自己常常都有帶刀上學這樣的一個習慣那其實這個時候啊"},{"start":753.052,"end":765.742,"text":"這個時機其實就是少五分應該去介入的一個最好的一個時機可是呢我們去看我們去看就是說這幾年我們修法完以後少年事件處理法我們現在變成行政輔導先行上路那這個制度"},{"start":767.563,"end":783.559,"text":"那到底有沒有去落實讓暴險少年不要一開始就進入到整個司法的一個體系那由行政體系先去介入輔導再評估司法移送法院我想問的就是說你們現在人力的部分結構上你當一個署長你看到這個問題地方上這樣能量"},{"start":789.738,"end":793.827,"text":"到底夠不夠 實際上在第一線工作各縣市的少年輔導組 我給你看看 組成"},{"start":798.329,"end":825.37,"text":"這一個結構裡面大部分還是我們警察機關啦我不知道你對這個看法可不可以簡單做一個回答好那這個是在112年7月開始上路就是不僅少年的行政輔導先行那現在全國的這個少府會的這個全國的這個人力大概260幾個那在113年的流動率是偏高的那這個組織裡面除了台北市"},{"start":826.531,"end":846.061,"text":"看起來就是他自己市政府有補助比較健全其他各縣市政府的消費大概由這個市安網來做補助確實市長台東三個我確實就是這些人力上有一些是要又再做增加我想這個這個部分另外是"},{"start":846.781,"end":865.827,"text":"因為上午會的這個功能不是司法單位啦就是作為輔導單位我覺得有在做這一些健全的一個空間那我們這個部分因為是110人開始做施行未來可能要逐步在做檢討在人力他們的待遇或者是在他們的這一些的"},{"start":866.747,"end":887.949,"text":"功能上在做加強因為他輔導的目前每個人開案大概是在10個左右啦每個輔導大概10個左右那目前的這個量能初步大概是這樣子那我想就是他主要的這個有三個面向第一個剛剛委員所提的這個無故攜帶器無故攜帶這個器械"},{"start":889.691,"end":912.696,"text":"或者是這些這個毒品沒有犯刑示範就是所謂三級毒品或者是預備犯若或者是這些的一個未遂犯這個都是列在於我們這個不省少年這個輔導先行的這個範圍裡面所以就是你現在基層能量不夠對 這個量能應該不太夠來看下一張 要怎麼做充實現在就是說"},{"start":915.376,"end":938.703,"text":"曝險少年 這個不是早退 現在不是說早退 還是我蹺課就像剛剛署長你講的 現在很多涉及到刀械 私用毒品 還有預備犯罪那你現在的少府會 你也沒有這個強制的權利啦所以你這個很麻煩 就是針對這種高風險的個案你有明確的行政流程應變的機制跟責任分工嗎"},{"start":939.923,"end":943.906,"text":"這個我還要問你以前你現在偏差的行為那個太樣太多太多啦你一個市權沒有辦法去做一個做一個你要怎麼去做一個協調比如說各地方政府裡面一大堆相關的資源單位交易局你說中促的輔導這個婦苗專案社會局還有兒少保護家房中心 園民局處還有提供部落家庭的支持衛福部 心理 警政你這個整個市權裡面"},{"start":970.286,"end":990.076,"text":"處處去交錯,你少五會不僅需要去協調所有單位,你還有先議權所以現在你制度實行下來,該道路是好好去檢討的時候了對,我跟你講,就是說這些青少年的問題,有牽涉到他處罰的"},{"start":992.098,"end":1009.478,"text":"有牽涉他父親少年 有牽涉他偏差行為有牽涉到忠厝這些行為 都散佈在各部會所以未來就是說 現在目前的這個父親少年這個善良輔導先行 可能牽涉他跟成年犯結合在一起"},{"start":1010.438,"end":1039.119,"text":"兩個是又分開的所以實施到現在剛剛在這個有些委員質詢的時候我覺得就是這個部分未來有檢討的空間看怎麼要來做整合這個最麻煩在哪裡我講我的感觸給你聽就是說我們變成我們警政單位扮演的角色他其實是最重的啦扮演的角色最重可是呢對這一些少年來講的話他對你們又是最排斥的"},{"start":1040.185,"end":1042.307,"text":"又是最排斥的 所以說像這樣子的話 要安裝給少府會 還有警政機關繼續這樣擔當這麼重要的一個角色這個缺點其實是很明確 所以重新去檢討 去選定組織機關的歸屬"},{"start":1060.984,"end":1078.084,"text":"我認為真的要好好去討論在立法院裡面因為時間都很短本來這個議題可以好好來做討論我也不敢耽誤其他委員太過多的一個時間那剛好實行完了那這一段時間完以後整個制度沒有去檢討真的不行你把它想想看"},{"start":1079.125,"end":1097.112,"text":"在立法院的氛圍裡面只要涉及到重大犯罪的時候大家要求警政機關裡面在幹什麼趕快去打擊犯罪然後碰到只要是青少年大家一看警察局你可能會講說你不是叫我去打擊犯罪我打擊犯罪成果給你啦現在出來你還欺負說我那裡沒做到那裡沒做到那裡沒做到少府會這樣的一個本來是一個協調過程的一個平台但是卡關了啦人也不夠啦權責也都不清啦"},{"start":1109.077,"end":1126.651,"text":"我期待應該跟衛福部大家好好跟整個教育部好好做這個制度真的是到真的不得不趕快讓一個檢討出一個新的制度否則我們會看到青少年犯罪我跟你講還會再飆升要加油好不好好謝謝謝委員好那我們"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":669,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時6分）謝謝主席。有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩法務部鄭部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有衛福部呂次長。"],["主席：衛福部呂次長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：矯正署周署長。"],["主席：周署長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，其實我早上聽了這麼多委員質詢，憑立法院這些腦袋要處理今天這個議題，那是沒有能力的。青少年犯罪飆升確實是一個警訊，青少年當然是國家未來的棟梁，可是這個棟梁如果涉及到犯罪，又是法務部的職掌，你們當然要去打擊犯罪，所以這個問題環環相扣。但是本席倒想先請教幾個問題，早上我看大家一直問，連召委也和進來在問黃國昌委員這樣的質詢到底是不是有涉及到犯罪的問題？大家講得都很大聲，但我覺得這個議題是在野黨耍老千的一個議題。憲法第七十三條就明文規定，立法委員在院內的言論跟表決，對院外其實不負責任，這個有言論免責權的問題。甚至於連在野黨都已經聯手了，整個會期本來是延到7月31號，現在又要延到8月31號，按照憲法增修條文第四條第八項的前段，立法委員除了現行犯以外，在會期裡面，沒有經過本院的許可，沒有辦法逮捕，所以這個是一連串的。我會覺得在立法院裡面要追究這樣的法律責任困難，比登天還難！我倒認為這個是屬於國會自律，或者個人要負政治責任的問題，我不曉得部長的看法怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確，這些是不太恰當，我們希望立法委員都理性問政，官員也來回應。如果有委員所提到的這些情形，我們也尊重委員的寶貴意見。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我們都希望國會可以通過一些更好的福利、民生法案，而對行政部門監督，本來就是職責。但是我要請教一個問題，現在在整個矯正體制裡面設了很多監獄，只要是人都會生病，生病了就要帶去看醫生。我想請教衛福部次長，現在我們碰到了一個問題，連續假期如果連三天，不管是部立醫院或是民間醫療機構，我們會請醫生到矯正機關、到監獄裡面去看診。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果連續假期三天，你們就開始要排醫生去。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣的一個規定，連續三天的假，只要有三天連假的話，你就必須要有門診。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你接下來會碰到一個問題，教師節、還有雙十節、中秋節還有春假都是連續假期，遇到這種狀況，你要叫人家連續去門診，醫院裡面大家叫苦連天。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這你們都知道。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這種規定來講合不合理？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們也知道目前有連假，我也坦承跟委員講，醫院人力在調配上來說確實有問題，但是這部分，特別是我們部立醫院，這是國家職責所在，我們還是會盡全力，這裡面也會包括加成，在這種時候，我們目前有在研議加成的相關規定，讓我們的醫師能夠符合這個需求，但長期來說確實在人力上，我們也必須要做一個相對應的處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：受刑人的人權當然要保障，這些都是對的！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是有時候實際上，你造成這些醫療院所實質上確實人力短缺，這是很嚴重的衝擊，我們也必須要去正視。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：第二個問題我就要來請教部長，人去門診看病，或是你們監所的人帶去醫院看病，看一看你們卻不付錢，這樣對嗎？都欠人家錢，這樣對嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：署長，這部分你會比較清楚，你們有欠人家很多嗎？欠到醫療院所、醫院要來找我們立委抱怨說有這樣的嗎？監獄帶人來看病，看一看卻不付錢。衛福部次長，我剛才忘了問你，你們部立醫院也是被欠了一大堆錢，這樣對嗎？人家去你們那邊看診，連續假日三天還要派人去那邊看診，都很好啦，因為我相信可能是考量到這些受刑人如果出來還要戒護，有很多的麻煩，所以連續假期三日來開立門診，但是你們看完診之後，錢要給人家啊！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，醫院會跟機關催討這些醫療費用，其實不是機關欠醫院，而是因為這些受刑人去看病以後沒有錢付，他沒有錢付，我們要動用公益金之前必須有完備的程序，比如打電話跟他的家人、兒子說你爸爸有欠這一筆錢，請他要來繳納。他兒子可能會說他的收入有限，我們要問很多相關的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，對啦，你講的都對，我也聽得懂，但你會碰到一個問題，人是你們帶來的，你們帶來之後，人家就要幫你們看病……"],["周署長輝煌：所以我們完備程序之後，在其他受刑人不會說不公平的前提下，我們會召開所謂的合作社會議，然後看多少錢，我們儘量分梯次給醫療院所，我們也希望跟醫院能夠合作愉快。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我唸給你聽，在臺東有臺東監獄、綠島監獄，有看守所、戒治所，技能訓練所有泰源、岩灣和東成，你看馬偕醫院挑到泰源，泰源有一千多人，你們看完診之後就怎樣開始欠帳，你知道嗎？106年你們欠10萬3,900元，107年欠26萬1,585元，108年欠17萬8,000元，109年只欠六萬八，110年八萬多，你欠人家六十九萬多，醫院催繳的欠費金額到現在要上百萬，你卻跟人家說：不然你去討，你連絡家屬。醫院哪有人力幫你討？第二，受刑人出去之後，人家嚇也嚇死，一般人……"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們不是請醫院去跟家屬追繳，而是由我們機關打電話給家屬，請他們要趕快來繳這筆錢。如果問過相關他的家屬都沒辦法繳之後，我們才會開會討論要不要動用公益金替受刑人繳納。這個要公平，不然其他的受刑人會說，他為什麼有特權……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我的重點是你們開了會還是欠帳，從106年欠到現在了。"],["周署長輝煌：我們公益金有限，委員，你要諒解。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，我是說這個問題怎麼辦？"],["周署長輝煌：我們儘量能夠繳納，但是公益金其實有限，我們的公益金也要補助其他受刑人的營補費等等，不是專門提供欠費欠繳……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們講完以後，部長，我是這樣認為，你也知道這個情況，衛福部次長也在這個地方，我會認為這樣對醫院來講比較無辜一點，一般的民眾看病是全民健保，遇到窮困的人，政府照顧老百姓，有時候欠帳難免，但是我們的機關又扮演一定的角色，你請醫生跟我們政府部門簽約，因為連續三天假期請醫院派人去那邊門診，他就真的派去了，但卻給人看免錢的、給人家賴帳，這不好啦，我覺得政府應該想辦法，政府應該想辦法！對於醫療院所，像桃園部立醫院，你也欠它一百多萬，那是政府的，政府左手、右手怎麼挪還是另外一件事，可是你還涉及到不是政府部門的，你說：我有開會，我什麼都做啦，他就是不繳，所以我也沒辦法啊！但人家如果說氣話，你都不繳錢，不然你就不要來看，也不要叫我們去，這樣有沒有道理？我認為要解決啦，對你的論述我沒意見，可是讓醫院把帳一直掛在那個地方，產生這樣的怨言，這也不好啦！你們都認為合作很愉快，可是沒有收到錢的時候，人家真的是不愉快。"],["周署長輝煌：是，我要報告委員，不管是衛福部或法務部，針對受刑人自從102年加入二代健保之後，我們都有編列這些經費做一些支出，至於委員講的這個部分，包括剛剛我講的公益金，也有作業基金的一些補助，所以我們並不是想要賴帳，那是受刑人欠的，但是為了公平起見，我們應該完備程序之後再來繳納，而且……"],["莊委員瑞雄：署長，我知道是受刑人欠的，但我的意思是，實質上經過你們這樣開會，甚至他的作業基金，在監獄裡面工作的錢先扣掉給他，這些都是該做的，我的重點是最後這幾年連續這樣欠醫院的錢，不好看啦。"],["周署長輝煌：是，我們來要求所屬機關在相關的公益金合作社會議裡面，儘量能夠通過用公益金繳納這些費用，因為……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我只要求一個，有欠帳的趕快還掉。"],["周署長輝煌：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：鄭部長，先請回。我請我們警政署署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：今天的議題其實是一個很大的議題，針對青少年刑案嫌疑人人數一直在創高，我不曉得你的感慨是什麼，因為站在警察機關的立場本來就是要打擊犯罪。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你也不可能因為青少年犯了罪，這些都假裝沒有看到，該做的我們還是要去做。其實我看到2023年新北國中生拿彈簧刀刺死隔壁班的同學，當然法院還在審理當中，像這種案件，我都有一個很大的感觸，那個青少年到案以後，他自述他自己常常都有帶刀上學這樣的習慣，這個其實就是少輔會應該介入的一個最好的時機，可是我們看這幾年少年件事處理法修法完以後，現在變成行政輔導先行上路，這個制度到底有沒有落實讓曝險少年不要一開始就進入整個司法體系，由行政體系先去介入輔導，再評估是否移送法院？","我想問的就是，你們現在人力的部分在結構上，你當一個署長，你看到這個問題，地方上的能量到底夠不夠？實際上在第一線工作的，我看一下各縣市的少年輔導組這些組成結構裡面，大部分還是我們警察機關。我不知道你對這部分的看法為何，可不可以簡單回答？"],["張署長榮興：好，這個是在112年7月開始上路，就是曝險少年的行政輔導先行，現在全國少輔會的人力大概兩百六十幾個，在113年的流動率是偏高的，這個組織裡面除了臺北市看起來……就是他自己市政府有補助比較健全之外，其他各縣市政府的少輔會大概是由社安網補助，確實……"],["莊委員瑞雄：署長，臺東才3個。"],["張署長榮興：對，確實人力上有一些要再增加。關於這個部分，因為少輔會的功能不是司法單位，它作為輔導單位，我覺得可以有再健全的空間。這個部分因為是從110年開始施行，未來可能要逐步再檢討，人力、他們的待遇或者是在他們這一些功能上要再加強，因為目前每個人輔導的大概是在10個左右，每個人大概輔導10個左右，目前的量能初步大概是這樣子，它主要有三個面向，第一個，剛剛委員所提無故攜帶器械，或者是毒品沒有犯刑事犯罪，就是所謂三級毒品，或者是預備犯，或者是未遂犯，這些都列為曝險少年輔導先行的這個範圍裡。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你現在就是基層能量不夠？"],["張署長榮興：對，這個量能應該不太夠，看要怎麼再充實。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在曝險少年不是像以前早退還是蹺課而已，就像剛剛署長講的，現在很多涉及到刀械、施用毒品還有預備犯罪，但是現在少輔會也沒有強制的權力。"],["張署長榮興：是，沒有強制的權力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你這個很麻煩，就是針對這種高風險的個案，你有明確的行政流程、應變的機制跟責任分工嗎？這個是我要你問的，而且現在偏差行為的態樣太多太多了，你事權沒有辦法去做一個……你們要怎麼去協調？比如說各地方政府裡面有一大堆相關的資源單位，如教育局裡有中輟輔導、護苗專案，社會局還有兒少保護、家防中心，原民局處還有提供部落家庭的支持，衛福、心理、警政整個事權處處交錯，你少輔會不僅需要去協調所有單位，你還有先議權，對不對？所以現在整個制度實行下來，到了該好好去檢討的時候。"],["張署長榮興：對，委員，我覺得這些青少年的問題有牽涉到他觸法的、有牽涉他是曝險少年、有牽涉他的偏差行為、有牽涉到中輟這些行為，事權都散布在各部會，所以未來……目前這個曝險少年行政輔導先行可能牽涉到成年犯，跟成年犯結合在一起，但兩個又是分開的，所以實行到現在，剛剛有些委員質詢的時候也提到，我覺得這個部分未來有檢討的空間，看怎麼樣整合。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個最麻煩的地方在哪裡？我講我的感觸給你聽，就是變成警政單位扮演的角色其實是最重的，你們扮演的角色最重，可是對這一些少年來講，他對你們又是最排斥的。"],["張署長榮興：沒有錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說像這樣子，要怎麼讓少輔會還有你們警政機關繼續擔綱這麼重要的一個角色？這個缺點其實很明確，所以重新檢討、選定主責機關的歸屬，我認為真的要好好去討論。","因為在立法院裡面的質詢時間都很短，本來這個議題可以好好討論，但是我也不敢耽誤其他委員太過多的時間。在實行了這一段時間以後，對整個制度沒有去檢討真的不行。你想想看，在立法院的氛圍裡面，只要涉及到重大犯罪的時候，大家都會要求警政機關趕快去打擊犯罪，但只要碰到青少年，大家一看，警察局可能會說你們不是叫我去打擊犯罪，我把打擊犯罪的成果給你們了，現在出來，你們還嫌我這邊沒做到、那邊沒做到。少輔會本來是一個協調溝通的平臺，但是卡關了，人也不夠，權責也都不輕。我期待你們跟衛福部、教育部，大家一起好好地檢討這個制度，因為真的是不得不趕快檢討出一個新的制度，否則我跟你講，我們會看到青少年犯罪還會再飆升。要加油！好不好？謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們依照先前的宣告，休息5分鐘，5分鐘後由林月琴委員發言。","休息（11時25分）","繼續開會（11時31分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林月琴","王鴻薇","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","葉元之","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張雅琳","林國成"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、教育部部長、法務部矯正署署長、內政部\n警政署署長、勞動部、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「青少年刑案嫌疑人於2024年創歷年\n新高，達4.7萬餘人次，現行少年輔導、矯正效能，包括校園霸凌處理機制、高關懷學生、安置\n輔導、保護管束、感化教育、職能訓練、更生系統、中介轉銜機制、追蹤輔導、逆境社工等，及\n《少年事件處理法》『行政輔導先行』施行迄今近兩年，相關制度之檢討與策進」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00007"}}}