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471.5, \"end\": 471.52, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}]}, {\"start\": 472.341, \"end\": 492.717, \"text\": \"桃園另外關注的地方就是說相關比如說消防又涉及專業的這些公共設施點交的時候他會要求要有具有國家相關專業機師證照的人員來參與點交讓這個點交的公信力上升其實就是剛剛署長回應的其中的一部分精神上是類似的那這樣子的一個修法的方向這個請問從中央的角度你怎麼看待\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"桃\", \"start\": 472.341, \"end\": 472.621, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 472.621, \"end\": 472.741, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 472.741, \"end\": 473.022, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 473.022, \"end\": 473.122, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 473.122, \"end\": 473.202, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 473.202, \"end\": 473.342, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 473.342, \"end\": 473.502, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 473.502, \"end\": 473.642, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 473.642, \"end\": 474.223, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", 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0.825}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 864.142, \"end\": 864.242, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 864.242, \"end\": 864.342, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 864.342, \"end\": 864.482, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 864.482, \"end\": 864.502, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,412 --> 00:00:11,095\n謝謝主席地政司國土署跟消保處有請請以上的各位辛苦了這個我們今天專案報告的主題其實是討論公寓大廈的一個點交相關一些爭議\n\n2\n00:00:27,304 --> 00:00:49,418\n那就本期的一些了解我們在地方走動其實典交爭議它不是只是單純的消費糾紛因為很多地方如果典交的狀況沒有處理好它其實會衍生變成公益大家管理的問題有一些人認為典交要趕快給它過因為我要動之公共基金有一些人認為我們堅持要在訴訟上討個公道然後就變成各派各系就這樣\n\n3\n00:00:50,238 --> 00:01:07,492\n衍生出來然後甚至住戶之間彼此傷害所以點交的問題不會只有單純消費糾紛但是會影響公寓大廈的管理那點交的大概幾個問題我分別請問各個單位第一我要請教的叫做點交的不平等條約的問題我要請問我們的地政司啊\n\n4\n00:01:08,272 --> 00:01:27,454\n現在規定裡面其實針對這個買賣預售屋的契約裡面其實有所謂的因記載事項有談到所謂的一個點交的一個權利義務關係也就是說你點交的時候要完成哪一些的程序但問題是你在不得記載的事項裡面其實本席認為這個規定上面是有一些疏漏的\n\n5\n00:01:28,311 --> 00:01:50,647\n為什麼這樣說呢因為有很多建商就我們在第一線的了解他就會在這個預售屋的買賣契約裡面去訂定一些比如說這個你看螢幕上面就有寫啊如果賣方沒有在指定期限內會同檢測或移交超過幾天幾天那我們就自動認定點交已經完成那關懷會未來就要自行負責這些公共\n\n6\n00:01:51,387 --> 00:02:16,463\n設施的管理維護保養等工作右邊這邊寫管理委員會或成立負責人推選三個月內要趕快來處理移交事宜如果沒有辦法成立管理委員會或推選負責人以至於不能進行公設典交那我一樣要視為已檢設移交完成買方要無條件的解除賣方在共有部分的管理責任換言之他可以在買賣企業裡面自行去定義所謂的不平等條約讓這些買到預售屋的人\n\n7\n00:02:18,864 --> 00:02:43,055\n還來不及去處理這些事情的時候他就自動點交那這當然就會衍生後面的爭議嘛對不對那我想請問一下地政司啊你們管理這不動產買賣契約等等的請問這這樣子的一個不平等條款有沒有修正或再規範的空間跟委員報告一下非常感謝委員委員提到這些狀況其實我們現在每年都有請地方政府去做預售屋那個稽查計畫包含我們跟消保處也在做一些共同的契約的稽查\n\n8\n00:02:44,255 --> 00:03:03,021\n那委員提到這些不公平的事項的部分其實我們有發現所以我們有去整理缺失事項包含像這種事項的部分我們已經有訂定一個缺失事項的部分去做一個以後稽查的一個重點那包含建上如果有違反這個部分的話我們都會有一些罰則就是6到30萬的罰則而且要求改善\n\n9\n00:03:05,382 --> 00:03:23,793\n那這個部分的話委員有提到不得記載這個事項會變成一個通案性的一個修正的部分所以那個未來我們也會把一些太陽的部分看是不是檢討進來做一個不得記載事項你現在自然要回答OK表示你有關注到這件事情但是你看以罰則來講跟你的動作來講我認為是不成比例的\n\n10\n00:03:23,933 --> 00:03:43,211\n也就是說我花很多的精力去要求地方政府去稽查啊然後稽查到有所謂的不平等條約罰款我剛剛聽最高講30萬如果你建商可以搞定一個公司的典交對不對你可以省多少錢對不對所以30萬對很多建商來講恐怕是不痛不癢的事情所以正本清源之道其實還是把這個買賣就相關的契約的規範做一個嚴加的檢討\n\n11\n00:03:45,993 --> 00:04:00,610\n既然地政司有討論到所有的樣態那這未來的一些修正的方向我請地政司我給你一個月的時間你要研擬一個報告因為你總要有通案性的一些檢討作為嘛用什麼樣的方式來改進去避免公社裡要出現不平等條款這第一個問題市長可以答應嗎\n\n12\n00:04:01,371 --> 00:04:16,721\n我們先一個月之內就委員了只是先把我們發現到的一些事情跟一些做法你還不想喔我是想說不得記載事項你有沒有一些建議事項規定我們來討論一下這個東西怎麼做修訂嘛充分討論之後再決定可以嗎好市長請坐再來我要請問國土署\n\n13\n00:04:17,681 --> 00:04:35,998\n這個我要問國度署的問題是我們要今天討論典交的第二個問題叫做典交球員兼裁判的問題還有我們典交公共設施專業性的問題這個剛剛我們張宏錄稍微也有提到對不對其實典交在實務上我們都認知到最大的現象就是我在預售的時候他一些沒有賣出去所以他基本上屬於建商的\n\n14\n00:04:36,434 --> 00:05:05,393\n所以就會按照區分所有權的這樣的比例的席次產生所謂的第一屆管委會第一屆管委會如果這房子沒有賣完那建商派他當然很容易的取得多數的這樣的一個優勢那建商派我又是管委會的成員我又自己又要負責點交那我變求援兼裁判那很多點交的過程之中他可能就會變異形式那少數派也就是真正買住戶他可能會團結起來可能抗議或什麼從第一屆管委會開始就互相傷害打官司這就是公共大樓管理問題嘛\n\n15\n00:05:06,534 --> 00:05:19,929\n對不對那麼這個球員兼裁判的問題我們該如何來避免如何避免社區如何確保我們的社區其他區分所有權人相關的一些權益署長你有想法嗎跟委員報告因為上次大概有提\n\n16\n00:05:21,491 --> 00:05:32,997\n目前來講最大的狀態就是說我們要去適用到相關的罰則的話因為所謂的保留戶在實體上來講他還是屬於個人戶啦這關鍵其實是在這裡啦所以應該是說怎麼樣去具體去確認這個點交的過程當中他做了相關的檢測是正確的\n\n17\n00:05:43,263 --> 00:06:03,515\n那這一點我覺得是實務上第一點要再去做我們還是要去強化這一個機制啦因為過程當中的確有可能因為就是保留戶太多他對於相關的檢測的部分是比較粗糙的是啊是比較粗糙的所以怎麼樣去強化這中間的機制這是第一個那當然也有人提出來說用第三方\n\n18\n00:06:04,335 --> 00:06:22,917\n這件事情那第三方這件事情的話我們就要回歸另外一個事實是說第三方真正的責任是在哪裡那現在坊間的業務公司當然很多是在做這一件事但是我們也看到有些是做超出的那所以上次委員有說這樣的建議以後我們也有內部討論也有找\n\n19\n00:06:24,377 --> 00:06:45,226\n建研所在討論這件事情也就是說是不是就有關除了建築法規以外的項目建築法規以外的項目那但是對民眾來講他認為很重要只是說就仿建項目我們是不是有找建研所來談說是不是哪一些我們請建研所就這些項目去進行所謂的標準的認定\n\n20\n00:06:46,400 --> 00:07:11,856\n作為標準的認定那這樣就可以提供給第三方他是做這樣的一個方式你剛剛回答都是一些實務上在就如何讓這個點交這個過程的公信力可以提升嘛讓雙方可以這樣這是一個解決方式沒有錯但我們今天問的問題還是求人兼裁判的問題嘛那其實剛剛張宏祿照理在質詢他提的概念很好嘛就是說如果他是有未賣出或什麼的他應該排除試用在比例上做修正主管對這個想法這個概念的想法可是很多實務上他是已經登記是個人啦\n\n21\n00:07:13,337 --> 00:07:28,080\n登記資格關鍵其實是在這裡我們針對這件事情來做一下研討我們要怎麼樣去避免產生這樣的狀況好不好這一樣我們花一點時間我們給地震室一個月我也給你一個月因為未來我們可能要提供大家管理條件的修正是不是要透過修法的方式來處理\n\n22\n00:07:28,781 --> 00:07:51,520\n我請國土署預作準備好不好那再來剛剛我講的專業性的部分還沒專業性的部分我們桃園這幾天剛好在議會在開臨時會很快會通過我們的公寓大廈輔導管理條例自治條例那裡面裡面他其實有談到就是說點交當然會很多時候爭議但因為點交你整包卡住的時候他其實會變相影響這個公寓大廈裡面的公共設施一些安全比如消防設備等等那麼\n\n23\n00:07:52,341 --> 00:08:12,717\n桃園另外關注的地方就是說相關比如說消防又涉及專業的這些公共設施點交的時候他會要求要有具有國家相關專業機師證照的人員來參與點交讓這個點交的公信力上升其實就是剛剛署長回應的其中的一部分精神上是類似的那這樣子的一個修法的方向這個請問從中央的角度你怎麼看待\n\n24\n00:08:14,218 --> 00:08:28,165\n應該這麼說如果他針對的是就安全部分對而且是法規有的部分那我們長期知道的是比較多的爭議是出在法規以外的當然法規以外這部分我覺得在在他們的條例裡面\n\n25\n00:08:29,372 --> 00:08:54,458\n其實如果真的要去我們當然是樂觀其成但是我是建議他在真實在落實上來講要把法規有的跟法規以外的法規以外是我們剛剛討論的那一部分嘛譬如說全員監裁辦怎麼處理法規以外包含說你檢測的項目不是在法規裡面的那事實上實務上也是出現的確有在檢測這些項目那這些在條例裡面需要去釐清我只做這個法規內的\n\n26\n00:08:56,238 --> 00:09:10,515\n法規之外的不屬於我這支條例那可是實務上會遇到民眾還是會需要這些項目比如說我這個水平有沒有拉得很急我這個牆壁所謂的聖水或者是所謂的軍列\n\n27\n00:09:11,596 --> 00:09:36,542\n他的意義是什麼但是這不是在法規內的可是民眾會很在意這些那個是消費消費端大家會在意所以我才會建議是說我們也跟今天所討論是不是說要給某些項目一些標準不要讓大家到最後留以各說各話甚至影響典礁我覺得這是很重要的所以你說從重要的角度你看其實說除了安全的部分有技師認證那是一種好的方向之外你如果可以設立一個客觀標準讓大家可是參考也是一個好的方式嗎\n\n28\n00:09:37,482 --> 00:10:03,914\n那如果這部分我如果要行於比如說公寓大廈管理條例的條例我建議是可是它會涉及到是母法因為你的母法建築房建築沒有這些項目沒有這些項目我講的這以外的話我們是給它一些標準讓大家執行一個依據就好了來如果再改善這部分我一樣請你會有提供書面報告好不好就是方法上不管你政策的方式或者是法律的方式我們要有一個判斷商量可以嗎好謝謝署長請休息一下消保處\n\n29\n00:10:06,385 --> 00:10:25,135\n我們現在針對這個買賣相關個別專有的部分有沒有其實有一個5%保留款的規定嘛它其實就是為了避免預防消費糾紛嘛對不對那為什麼公共設施的部分沒有相關的一個保留款的一個設計如果在沒有的一個情況之下你怎麼去保護消費者的權益因為我們剛剛就討論供應大家的典交很多時候是買賣雙方認知歧異很大\n\n30\n00:10:27,196 --> 00:10:43,925\n但是目前大家實務上看到的狀況都是非常偏向建商的嘛建商有相對好的保障跟福利不管是不平衡條約他可以偷搞對不對他可以搞球員兼裁判對不對那我做為房屋的買方或所有權利人我權利是被拆散的我要對抗這個東西很難他就衍生消費糾紛\n\n31\n00:10:44,805 --> 00:11:10,420\n有沒有什麼樣的機制可以改善這樣的狀況是謝謝委員那目前因為5%的保留款是針對這個專有部分的那一些公用部分是沒有所以我們在今天的報告裡面的有一個建議是像說也許也可以評估看看說是不是針對公用部分也有一個交付保留款的不過這個部分因為這個制度有要變革可能還是需要內政部再洽一些消保團體還有一些業者一起來討論有沒有這個可行性或者有其他的措施來保護這個消費者\n\n32\n00:11:11,561 --> 00:11:28,882\n我希望蕭保惠這邊相對積極一點就是說你們打算在多少時間內開這樣的會議去去釐清這樣的狀況然後變成一個務實可行的政策我們通常是我們通常我們先或先跟內我們其實跟內政部一直都有非常好的配合那我們有些建議我們就會提供給他們那他們一開始會找一些業者\n\n33\n00:11:30,484 --> 00:11:49,969\n那看如果是需要修公益大廈管理條例的話我們也會協助那如果是需要修這個預售屋的英記載或不得記載事項的話我們也會跟他們做比較深入的討論一個月內提相關的意見好不好我們會跟他進一步討論好謝謝好謝謝那這個其他人請回國土組長再麻煩你一下下對不起我收個尾就好好不好\n\n34\n00:11:50,936 --> 00:12:02,084\n我們最後一個要跟署長討論的概念就是說因為現在點交的狀況點交不成現在實務上剛剛遇到的狀況客觀產生的後果除了這些交費糾紛之外就是我的住戶沒有辦法拿回公共基金嘛\n\n35\n00:12:02,745 --> 00:12:25,738\n當初大家要提撥公共基金其實就變成要求建商依法提撥對不對依法提撥公共基金就是建商的建設成本嘛那既然是建設成本再商延商他一定到時候轉嫁給消費者換言之這些公共基金到時候羊毛出在羊身上其實還是有買房子的人去進行負擔那如果公設點交卡關以致公共基金沒有辦法動用我以台灣市111年這個審計處提供的報告來講就快10億的金額卡在那個地方沒有辦法有效動用\n\n36\n00:12:30,140 --> 00:12:55,415\n後來我們桃園直接很瘋狂他直接講說如果你真的十年啊給你十年屢次輔導都不願意配合者我就只好把他充公那這其實也是蠻奇怪的但是他看起來是一個沒有方法的方法那現在也越多人上次我們開公寓大廈管理條例公聽會的時候其實有在思考就是說公共基金跟公設典交要脫鉤處理如果要脫鉤處理的方式是不是一個好的方法如果沒有的話我們要怎麼避免公共基金因為公設典交卡關的問題我們最後一點點時間請署長簡單回答\n\n37\n00:12:58,969 --> 00:13:23,752\n的確目前我們還是朝向還是他得把這個管委會還有相關的這個典交程序是完成因為所有的法規現在扣合都是扣合在這個資料角度身上那因為你不成立然後你不完成這個動作其實你的公積金就會違反他使用的一個目的所以你看母法規定其實會在實務上地方出現一些斷裂對對對所以我才會說這個部分\n\n38\n00:13:25,053 --> 00:13:52,590\n在實務上來講他不是適合去用修法的方式但是我覺得可以一樣可以跟地方政府再來討論實務上地方政府願不願意來提供一個協助譬如說他現在又有一個條例可以去做的話那不是不是用成立經驗而是有類似長期是不是願意用信託的概念把它放進去那也確保大家的一個機制存在那裡面但是這個當然實務上要去操作的話很可能還要跟\n\n39\n00:13:53,140 --> 00:14:22,239\n相關的財政單位或是銀行要去談這些事情今年是公寓大廈管理條例30週年嘛大家都希望說有一些合理的調整那我當然認同不是所有的方法不是所有的改變都一定要透過修法方式來處理沒錯它也許是政策也許是行政命令等等但是我的意思是說總要有很明確的方向所以我們今天排這個專報其實希望大家來及時廣義啊所以這幾個問題啊剛剛我提到這幾個大的問題都希望各個單位待會去之後會後盡速提供相關的資料作為未來深入探討的參考可以嗎\n\n40\n00:14:23,821 --> 00:14:24,502\n好大家辛苦了謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6412\t11095\t謝謝主席 地政司國土署跟消保處有請請以上的各位辛苦了 這個我們今天專案報告的主題其實是討論公寓大廈的一個點交相關一些爭議\n27304\t49418\t那就本期的一些了解我們在地方走動其實典交爭議它不是只是單純的消費糾紛因為很多地方如果典交的狀況沒有處理好它其實會衍生變成公益大家管理的問題有一些人認為典交要趕快給它過因為我要動之公共基金有一些人認為我們堅持要在訴訟上討個公道然後就變成各派各系就這樣\n50238\t67492\t衍生出來然後甚至住戶之間彼此傷害所以點交的問題不會只有單純消費糾紛但是會影響公寓大廈的管理那點交的大概幾個問題我分別請問各個單位第一我要請教的叫做點交的不平等條約的問題我要請問我們的地政司啊\n68272\t87454\t現在規定裡面其實針對這個買賣預售屋的契約裡面其實有所謂的因記載事項有談到所謂的一個點交的一個權利義務關係也就是說你點交的時候要完成哪一些的程序但問題是你在不得記載的事項裡面其實本席認為這個規定上面是有一些疏漏的\n88311\t110647\t為什麼這樣說呢因為有很多建商就我們在第一線的了解他就會在這個預售屋的買賣契約裡面去訂定一些比如說這個你看螢幕上面就有寫啊如果賣方沒有在指定期限內會同檢測或移交超過幾天幾天那我們就自動認定點交已經完成那關懷會未來就要自行負責這些公共\n111387\t136463\t設施的管理維護保養等工作右邊這邊寫管理委員會或成立負責人推選三個月內要趕快來處理移交事宜如果沒有辦法成立管理委員會或推選負責人以至於不能進行公設典交那我一樣要視為已檢設移交完成買方要無條件的解除賣方在共有部分的管理責任換言之他可以在買賣企業裡面自行去定義所謂的不平等條約讓這些買到預售屋的人\n138864\t163055\t還來不及去處理這些事情的時候他就自動點交那這當然就會衍生後面的爭議嘛對不對那我想請問一下地政司啊你們管理這不動產買賣契約等等的請問這這樣子的一個不平等條款有沒有修正或再規範的空間跟委員報告一下非常感謝委員委員提到這些狀況其實我們現在每年都有請地方政府去做預售屋那個稽查計畫包含我們跟消保處也在做一些共同的契約的稽查\n164255\t183021\t那委員提到這些不公平的事項的部分其實我們有發現所以我們有去整理缺失事項包含像這種事項的部分我們已經有訂定一個缺失事項的部分去做一個以後稽查的一個重點那包含建上如果有違反這個部分的話我們都會有一些罰則就是6到30萬的罰則而且要求改善\n185382\t203793\t那這個部分的話委員有提到不得記載這個事項會變成一個通案性的一個修正的部分所以那個未來我們也會把一些太陽的部分看是不是檢討進來做一個不得記載事項你現在自然要回答OK表示你有關注到這件事情但是你看以罰則來講跟你的動作來講我認為是不成比例的\n203933\t223211\t也就是說我花很多的精力去要求地方政府去稽查啊然後稽查到有所謂的不平等條約罰款我剛剛聽最高講30萬如果你建商可以搞定一個公司的典交對不對你可以省多少錢對不對所以30萬對很多建商來講恐怕是不痛不癢的事情所以正本清源之道其實還是把這個買賣就相關的契約的規範做一個嚴加的檢討\n225993\t240610\t既然地政司有討論到所有的樣態那這未來的一些修正的方向我請地政司我給你一個月的時間你要研擬一個報告因為你總要有通案性的一些檢討作為嘛用什麼樣的方式來改進去避免公社裡要出現不平等條款這第一個問題市長可以答應嗎\n241371\t256721\t我們先一個月之內就委員了只是先把我們發現到的一些事情跟一些做法你還不想喔我是想說不得記載事項你有沒有一些建議事項規定我們來討論一下這個東西怎麼做修訂嘛充分討論之後再決定可以嗎好市長請坐再來我要請問國土署\n257681\t275998\t這個我要問國度署的問題是我們要今天討論典交的第二個問題叫做典交球員兼裁判的問題還有我們典交公共設施專業性的問題這個剛剛我們張宏錄稍微也有提到對不對其實典交在實務上我們都認知到最大的現象就是我在預售的時候他一些沒有賣出去所以他基本上屬於建商的\n276434\t305393\t所以就會按照區分所有權的這樣的比例的席次產生所謂的第一屆管委會第一屆管委會如果這房子沒有賣完那建商派他當然很容易的取得多數的這樣的一個優勢那建商派我又是管委會的成員我又自己又要負責點交那我變求援兼裁判那很多點交的過程之中他可能就會變異形式那少數派也就是真正買住戶他可能會團結起來可能抗議或什麼從第一屆管委會開始就互相傷害打官司這就是公共大樓管理問題嘛\n306534\t319929\t對不對那麼這個球員兼裁判的問題我們該如何來避免如何避免社區如何確保我們的社區其他區分所有權人相關的一些權益署長你有想法嗎跟委員報告因為上次大概有提\n321491\t332997\t目前來講最大的狀態就是說我們要去適用到相關的罰則的話因為所謂的保留戶在實體上來講他還是屬於個人戶啦這關鍵其實是在這裡啦所以應該是說怎麼樣去具體去確認這個點交的過程當中他做了相關的檢測是正確的\n343263\t363515\t那這一點我覺得是實務上第一點要再去做我們還是要去強化這一個機制啦因為過程當中的確有可能因為就是保留戶太多他對於相關的檢測的部分是比較粗糙的是啊是比較粗糙的所以怎麼樣去強化這中間的機制這是第一個那當然也有人提出來說用第三方\n364335\t382917\t這件事情那第三方這件事情的話我們就要回歸另外一個事實是說第三方真正的責任是在哪裡那現在坊間的業務公司當然很多是在做這一件事但是我們也看到有些是做超出的那所以上次委員有說這樣的建議以後我們也有內部討論也有找\n384377\t405226\t建研所在討論這件事情也就是說是不是就有關除了建築法規以外的項目建築法規以外的項目那但是對民眾來講他認為很重要只是說就仿建項目我們是不是有找建研所來談說是不是哪一些我們請建研所就這些項目去進行所謂的標準的認定\n406400\t431856\t作為標準的認定那這樣就可以提供給第三方他是做這樣的一個方式你剛剛回答都是一些實務上在就如何讓這個點交這個過程的公信力可以提升嘛讓雙方可以這樣這是一個解決方式沒有錯但我們今天問的問題還是求人兼裁判的問題嘛那其實剛剛張宏祿照理在質詢他提的概念很好嘛就是說如果他是有未賣出或什麼的他應該排除試用在比例上做修正主管對這個想法這個概念的想法可是很多實務上他是已經登記是個人啦\n433337\t448080\t登記資格關鍵其實是在這裡我們針對這件事情來做一下研討我們要怎麼樣去避免產生這樣的狀況好不好這一樣我們花一點時間我們給地震室一個月我也給你一個月因為未來我們可能要提供大家管理條件的修正是不是要透過修法的方式來處理\n448781\t471520\t我請國土署預作準備好不好那再來剛剛我講的專業性的部分還沒專業性的部分我們桃園這幾天剛好在議會在開臨時會很快會通過我們的公寓大廈輔導管理條例自治條例那裡面裡面他其實有談到就是說點交當然會很多時候爭議但因為點交你整包卡住的時候他其實會變相影響這個公寓大廈裡面的公共設施一些安全比如消防設備等等那麼\n472341\t492717\t桃園另外關注的地方就是說相關比如說消防又涉及專業的這些公共設施點交的時候他會要求要有具有國家相關專業機師證照的人員來參與點交讓這個點交的公信力上升其實就是剛剛署長回應的其中的一部分精神上是類似的那這樣子的一個修法的方向這個請問從中央的角度你怎麼看待\n494218\t508165\t應該這麼說如果他針對的是就安全部分對而且是法規有的部分那我們長期知道的是比較多的爭議是出在法規以外的當然法規以外這部分我覺得在在他們的條例裡面\n509372\t534458\t其實如果真的要去我們當然是樂觀其成但是我是建議他在真實在落實上來講要把法規有的跟法規以外的法規以外是我們剛剛討論的那一部分嘛譬如說全員監裁辦怎麼處理法規以外包含說你檢測的項目不是在法規裡面的那事實上實務上也是出現的確有在檢測這些項目那這些在條例裡面需要去釐清我只做這個法規內的\n536238\t550515\t法規之外的不屬於我這支條例那可是實務上會遇到民眾還是會需要這些項目比如說我這個水平有沒有拉得很急我這個牆壁所謂的聖水或者是所謂的軍列\n551596\t576542\t他的意義是什麼但是這不是在法規內的可是民眾會很在意這些那個是消費消費端大家會在意所以我才會建議是說我們也跟今天所討論是不是說要給某些項目一些標準不要讓大家到最後留以各說各話甚至影響典礁我覺得這是很重要的所以你說從重要的角度你看其實說除了安全的部分有技師認證那是一種好的方向之外你如果可以設立一個客觀標準讓大家可是參考也是一個好的方式嗎\n577482\t603914\t那如果這部分我如果要行於比如說公寓大廈管理條例的條例我建議是可是它會涉及到是母法因為你的母法建築房建築沒有這些項目沒有這些項目我講的這以外的話我們是給它一些標準讓大家執行一個依據就好了來如果再改善這部分我一樣請你會有提供書面報告好不好就是方法上不管你政策的方式或者是法律的方式我們要有一個判斷商量可以嗎好謝謝署長請休息一下消保處\n606385\t625135\t我們現在針對這個買賣相關個別專有的部分有沒有其實有一個5%保留款的規定嘛它其實就是為了避免預防消費糾紛嘛對不對那為什麼公共設施的部分沒有相關的一個保留款的一個設計如果在沒有的一個情況之下你怎麼去保護消費者的權益因為我們剛剛就討論供應大家的典交很多時候是買賣雙方認知歧異很大\n627196\t643925\t但是目前大家實務上看到的狀況都是非常偏向建商的嘛建商有相對好的保障跟福利不管是不平衡條約他可以偷搞對不對他可以搞球員兼裁判對不對那我做為房屋的買方或所有權利人我權利是被拆散的我要對抗這個東西很難他就衍生消費糾紛\n644805\t670420\t有沒有什麼樣的機制可以改善這樣的狀況是 謝謝委員那目前因為5%的保留款是針對這個專有部分的那一些公用部分是沒有所以我們在今天的報告裡面的有一個建議是像說也許也可以評估看看說是不是針對公用部分也有一個交付保留款的不過這個部分因為這個制度有要變革可能還是需要內政部再洽一些消保團體還有一些業者一起來討論有沒有這個可行性或者有其他的措施來保護這個消費者\n671561\t688882\t我希望蕭保惠這邊相對積極一點就是說你們打算在多少時間內開這樣的會議去去釐清這樣的狀況然後變成一個務實可行的政策我們通常是我們通常我們先或先跟內我們其實跟內政部一直都有非常好的配合那我們有些建議我們就會提供給他們那他們一開始會找一些業者\n690484\t709969\t那看如果是需要修公益大廈管理條例的話我們也會協助那如果是需要修這個預售屋的英記載或不得記載事項的話我們也會跟他們做比較深入的討論一個月內提相關的意見好不好我們會跟他進一步討論好謝謝好謝謝那這個其他人請回國土組長再麻煩你一下下對不起我收個尾就好好不好\n710936\t722084\t我們最後一個要跟署長討論的概念就是說因為現在點交的狀況點交不成現在實務上剛剛遇到的狀況客觀產生的後果除了這些交費糾紛之外就是我的住戶沒有辦法拿回公共基金嘛\n722745\t745738\t當初大家要提撥公共基金其實就變成要求建商依法提撥對不對依法提撥公共基金就是建商的建設成本嘛那既然是建設成本 再商延商他一定到時候轉嫁給消費者換言之這些公共基金到時候羊毛出在羊身上其實還是有買房子的人去進行負擔那如果公設點交卡關以致公共基金沒有辦法動用我以台灣市111年這個審計處提供的報告來講就快10億的金額卡在那個地方沒有辦法有效動用\n750140\t775415\t後來我們桃園直接很瘋狂他直接講說如果你真的十年啊給你十年屢次輔導都不願意配合者我就只好把他充公那這其實也是蠻奇怪的但是他看起來是一個沒有方法的方法那現在也越多人上次我們開公寓大廈管理條例公聽會的時候其實有在思考就是說公共基金跟公設典交要脫鉤處理如果要脫鉤處理的方式是不是一個好的方法如果沒有的話我們要怎麼避免公共基金因為公設典交卡關的問題我們最後一點點時間請署長簡單回答\n778969\t803752\t的確目前我們還是朝向還是他得把這個管委會還有相關的這個典交程序是完成因為所有的法規現在扣合都是扣合在這個資料角度身上那因為你不成立然後你不完成這個動作其實你的公積金就會違反他使用的一個目的所以你看母法規定其實會在實務上地方出現一些斷裂對對對所以我才會說這個部分\n805053\t832590\t在實務上來講他不是適合去用修法的方式但是我覺得可以一樣可以跟地方政府再來討論實務上地方政府願不願意來提供一個協助譬如說他現在又有一個條例可以去做的話那不是不是用成立經驗而是有類似長期是不是願意用信託的概念把它放進去那也確保大家的一個機制存在那裡面但是這個當然實務上要去操作的話很可能還要跟\n833140\t862239\t相關的財政單位或是銀行要去談這些事情今年是公寓大廈管理條例30週年嘛大家都希望說有一些合理的調整那我當然認同不是所有的方法不是所有的改變都一定要透過修法方式來處理沒錯它也許是政策也許是行政命令等等但是我的意思是說總要有很明確的方向所以我們今天排這個專報其實希望大家來及時廣義啊所以這幾個問題啊剛剛我提到這幾個大的問題都希望各個單位待會去之後會後盡速提供相關的資料作為未來深入探討的參考可以嗎\n863821\t864502\t好大家辛苦了謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 地政司國土署跟消保處有請請以上的各位辛苦了 這個我們今天專案報告的主題其實是討論公寓大廈的一個點交相關一些爭議\n那就本期的一些了解我們在地方走動其實典交爭議它不是只是單純的消費糾紛因為很多地方如果典交的狀況沒有處理好它其實會衍生變成公益大家管理的問題有一些人認為典交要趕快給它過因為我要動之公共基金有一些人認為我們堅持要在訴訟上討個公道然後就變成各派各系就這樣\n衍生出來然後甚至住戶之間彼此傷害所以點交的問題不會只有單純消費糾紛但是會影響公寓大廈的管理那點交的大概幾個問題我分別請問各個單位第一我要請教的叫做點交的不平等條約的問題我要請問我們的地政司啊\n現在規定裡面其實針對這個買賣預售屋的契約裡面其實有所謂的因記載事項有談到所謂的一個點交的一個權利義務關係也就是說你點交的時候要完成哪一些的程序但問題是你在不得記載的事項裡面其實本席認為這個規定上面是有一些疏漏的\n為什麼這樣說呢因為有很多建商就我們在第一線的了解他就會在這個預售屋的買賣契約裡面去訂定一些比如說這個你看螢幕上面就有寫啊如果賣方沒有在指定期限內會同檢測或移交超過幾天幾天那我們就自動認定點交已經完成那關懷會未來就要自行負責這些公共\n設施的管理維護保養等工作右邊這邊寫管理委員會或成立負責人推選三個月內要趕快來處理移交事宜如果沒有辦法成立管理委員會或推選負責人以至於不能進行公設典交那我一樣要視為已檢設移交完成買方要無條件的解除賣方在共有部分的管理責任換言之他可以在買賣企業裡面自行去定義所謂的不平等條約讓這些買到預售屋的人\n還來不及去處理這些事情的時候他就自動點交那這當然就會衍生後面的爭議嘛對不對那我想請問一下地政司啊你們管理這不動產買賣契約等等的請問這這樣子的一個不平等條款有沒有修正或再規範的空間跟委員報告一下非常感謝委員委員提到這些狀況其實我們現在每年都有請地方政府去做預售屋那個稽查計畫包含我們跟消保處也在做一些共同的契約的稽查\n那委員提到這些不公平的事項的部分其實我們有發現所以我們有去整理缺失事項包含像這種事項的部分我們已經有訂定一個缺失事項的部分去做一個以後稽查的一個重點那包含建上如果有違反這個部分的話我們都會有一些罰則就是6到30萬的罰則而且要求改善\n那這個部分的話委員有提到不得記載這個事項會變成一個通案性的一個修正的部分所以那個未來我們也會把一些太陽的部分看是不是檢討進來做一個不得記載事項你現在自然要回答OK表示你有關注到這件事情但是你看以罰則來講跟你的動作來講我認為是不成比例的\n也就是說我花很多的精力去要求地方政府去稽查啊然後稽查到有所謂的不平等條約罰款我剛剛聽最高講30萬如果你建商可以搞定一個公司的典交對不對你可以省多少錢對不對所以30萬對很多建商來講恐怕是不痛不癢的事情所以正本清源之道其實還是把這個買賣就相關的契約的規範做一個嚴加的檢討\n既然地政司有討論到所有的樣態那這未來的一些修正的方向我請地政司我給你一個月的時間你要研擬一個報告因為你總要有通案性的一些檢討作為嘛用什麼樣的方式來改進去避免公社裡要出現不平等條款這第一個問題市長可以答應嗎\n我們先一個月之內就委員了只是先把我們發現到的一些事情跟一些做法你還不想喔我是想說不得記載事項你有沒有一些建議事項規定我們來討論一下這個東西怎麼做修訂嘛充分討論之後再決定可以嗎好市長請坐再來我要請問國土署\n這個我要問國度署的問題是我們要今天討論典交的第二個問題叫做典交球員兼裁判的問題還有我們典交公共設施專業性的問題這個剛剛我們張宏錄稍微也有提到對不對其實典交在實務上我們都認知到最大的現象就是我在預售的時候他一些沒有賣出去所以他基本上屬於建商的\n所以就會按照區分所有權的這樣的比例的席次產生所謂的第一屆管委會第一屆管委會如果這房子沒有賣完那建商派他當然很容易的取得多數的這樣的一個優勢那建商派我又是管委會的成員我又自己又要負責點交那我變求援兼裁判那很多點交的過程之中他可能就會變異形式那少數派也就是真正買住戶他可能會團結起來可能抗議或什麼從第一屆管委會開始就互相傷害打官司這就是公共大樓管理問題嘛\n對不對那麼這個球員兼裁判的問題我們該如何來避免如何避免社區如何確保我們的社區其他區分所有權人相關的一些權益署長你有想法嗎跟委員報告因為上次大概有提\n目前來講最大的狀態就是說我們要去適用到相關的罰則的話因為所謂的保留戶在實體上來講他還是屬於個人戶啦這關鍵其實是在這裡啦所以應該是說怎麼樣去具體去確認這個點交的過程當中他做了相關的檢測是正確的\n那這一點我覺得是實務上第一點要再去做我們還是要去強化這一個機制啦因為過程當中的確有可能因為就是保留戶太多他對於相關的檢測的部分是比較粗糙的是啊是比較粗糙的所以怎麼樣去強化這中間的機制這是第一個那當然也有人提出來說用第三方\n這件事情那第三方這件事情的話我們就要回歸另外一個事實是說第三方真正的責任是在哪裡那現在坊間的業務公司當然很多是在做這一件事但是我們也看到有些是做超出的那所以上次委員有說這樣的建議以後我們也有內部討論也有找\n建研所在討論這件事情也就是說是不是就有關除了建築法規以外的項目建築法規以外的項目那但是對民眾來講他認為很重要只是說就仿建項目我們是不是有找建研所來談說是不是哪一些我們請建研所就這些項目去進行所謂的標準的認定\n作為標準的認定那這樣就可以提供給第三方他是做這樣的一個方式你剛剛回答都是一些實務上在就如何讓這個點交這個過程的公信力可以提升嘛讓雙方可以這樣這是一個解決方式沒有錯但我們今天問的問題還是求人兼裁判的問題嘛那其實剛剛張宏祿照理在質詢他提的概念很好嘛就是說如果他是有未賣出或什麼的他應該排除試用在比例上做修正主管對這個想法這個概念的想法可是很多實務上他是已經登記是個人啦\n登記資格關鍵其實是在這裡我們針對這件事情來做一下研討我們要怎麼樣去避免產生這樣的狀況好不好這一樣我們花一點時間我們給地震室一個月我也給你一個月因為未來我們可能要提供大家管理條件的修正是不是要透過修法的方式來處理\n我請國土署預作準備好不好那再來剛剛我講的專業性的部分還沒專業性的部分我們桃園這幾天剛好在議會在開臨時會很快會通過我們的公寓大廈輔導管理條例自治條例那裡面裡面他其實有談到就是說點交當然會很多時候爭議但因為點交你整包卡住的時候他其實會變相影響這個公寓大廈裡面的公共設施一些安全比如消防設備等等那麼\n桃園另外關注的地方就是說相關比如說消防又涉及專業的這些公共設施點交的時候他會要求要有具有國家相關專業機師證照的人員來參與點交讓這個點交的公信力上升其實就是剛剛署長回應的其中的一部分精神上是類似的那這樣子的一個修法的方向這個請問從中央的角度你怎麼看待\n應該這麼說如果他針對的是就安全部分對而且是法規有的部分那我們長期知道的是比較多的爭議是出在法規以外的當然法規以外這部分我覺得在在他們的條例裡面\n其實如果真的要去我們當然是樂觀其成但是我是建議他在真實在落實上來講要把法規有的跟法規以外的法規以外是我們剛剛討論的那一部分嘛譬如說全員監裁辦怎麼處理法規以外包含說你檢測的項目不是在法規裡面的那事實上實務上也是出現的確有在檢測這些項目那這些在條例裡面需要去釐清我只做這個法規內的\n法規之外的不屬於我這支條例那可是實務上會遇到民眾還是會需要這些項目比如說我這個水平有沒有拉得很急我這個牆壁所謂的聖水或者是所謂的軍列\n他的意義是什麼但是這不是在法規內的可是民眾會很在意這些那個是消費消費端大家會在意所以我才會建議是說我們也跟今天所討論是不是說要給某些項目一些標準不要讓大家到最後留以各說各話甚至影響典礁我覺得這是很重要的所以你說從重要的角度你看其實說除了安全的部分有技師認證那是一種好的方向之外你如果可以設立一個客觀標準讓大家可是參考也是一個好的方式嗎\n那如果這部分我如果要行於比如說公寓大廈管理條例的條例我建議是可是它會涉及到是母法因為你的母法建築房建築沒有這些項目沒有這些項目我講的這以外的話我們是給它一些標準讓大家執行一個依據就好了來如果再改善這部分我一樣請你會有提供書面報告好不好就是方法上不管你政策的方式或者是法律的方式我們要有一個判斷商量可以嗎好謝謝署長請休息一下消保處\n我們現在針對這個買賣相關個別專有的部分有沒有其實有一個5%保留款的規定嘛它其實就是為了避免預防消費糾紛嘛對不對那為什麼公共設施的部分沒有相關的一個保留款的一個設計如果在沒有的一個情況之下你怎麼去保護消費者的權益因為我們剛剛就討論供應大家的典交很多時候是買賣雙方認知歧異很大\n但是目前大家實務上看到的狀況都是非常偏向建商的嘛建商有相對好的保障跟福利不管是不平衡條約他可以偷搞對不對他可以搞球員兼裁判對不對那我做為房屋的買方或所有權利人我權利是被拆散的我要對抗這個東西很難他就衍生消費糾紛\n有沒有什麼樣的機制可以改善這樣的狀況是 謝謝委員那目前因為5%的保留款是針對這個專有部分的那一些公用部分是沒有所以我們在今天的報告裡面的有一個建議是像說也許也可以評估看看說是不是針對公用部分也有一個交付保留款的不過這個部分因為這個制度有要變革可能還是需要內政部再洽一些消保團體還有一些業者一起來討論有沒有這個可行性或者有其他的措施來保護這個消費者\n我希望蕭保惠這邊相對積極一點就是說你們打算在多少時間內開這樣的會議去去釐清這樣的狀況然後變成一個務實可行的政策我們通常是我們通常我們先或先跟內我們其實跟內政部一直都有非常好的配合那我們有些建議我們就會提供給他們那他們一開始會找一些業者\n那看如果是需要修公益大廈管理條例的話我們也會協助那如果是需要修這個預售屋的英記載或不得記載事項的話我們也會跟他們做比較深入的討論一個月內提相關的意見好不好我們會跟他進一步討論好謝謝好謝謝那這個其他人請回國土組長再麻煩你一下下對不起我收個尾就好好不好\n我們最後一個要跟署長討論的概念就是說因為現在點交的狀況點交不成現在實務上剛剛遇到的狀況客觀產生的後果除了這些交費糾紛之外就是我的住戶沒有辦法拿回公共基金嘛\n當初大家要提撥公共基金其實就變成要求建商依法提撥對不對依法提撥公共基金就是建商的建設成本嘛那既然是建設成本 再商延商他一定到時候轉嫁給消費者換言之這些公共基金到時候羊毛出在羊身上其實還是有買房子的人去進行負擔那如果公設點交卡關以致公共基金沒有辦法動用我以台灣市111年這個審計處提供的報告來講就快10億的金額卡在那個地方沒有辦法有效動用\n後來我們桃園直接很瘋狂他直接講說如果你真的十年啊給你十年屢次輔導都不願意配合者我就只好把他充公那這其實也是蠻奇怪的但是他看起來是一個沒有方法的方法那現在也越多人上次我們開公寓大廈管理條例公聽會的時候其實有在思考就是說公共基金跟公設典交要脫鉤處理如果要脫鉤處理的方式是不是一個好的方法如果沒有的話我們要怎麼避免公共基金因為公設典交卡關的問題我們最後一點點時間請署長簡單回答\n的確目前我們還是朝向還是他得把這個管委會還有相關的這個典交程序是完成因為所有的法規現在扣合都是扣合在這個資料角度身上那因為你不成立然後你不完成這個動作其實你的公積金就會違反他使用的一個目的所以你看母法規定其實會在實務上地方出現一些斷裂對對對所以我才會說這個部分\n在實務上來講他不是適合去用修法的方式但是我覺得可以一樣可以跟地方政府再來討論實務上地方政府願不願意來提供一個協助譬如說他現在又有一個條例可以去做的話那不是不是用成立經驗而是有類似長期是不是願意用信託的概念把它放進去那也確保大家的一個機制存在那裡面但是這個當然實務上要去操作的話很可能還要跟\n相關的財政單位或是銀行要去談這些事情今年是公寓大廈管理條例30週年嘛大家都希望說有一些合理的調整那我當然認同不是所有的方法不是所有的改變都一定要透過修法方式來處理沒錯它也許是政策也許是行政命令等等但是我的意思是說總要有很明確的方向所以我們今天排這個專報其實希望大家來及時廣義啊所以這幾個問題啊剛剛我提到這幾個大的問題都希望各個單位待會去之後會後盡速提供相關的資料作為未來深入探討的參考可以嗎\n好大家辛苦了謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.412 --> 00:11.095\n謝謝主席地政司國土署跟消保處有請請以上的各位辛苦了這個我們今天專案報告的主題其實是討論公寓大廈的一個點交相關一些爭議\n\n00:27.304 --> 00:49.418\n那就本期的一些了解我們在地方走動其實典交爭議它不是只是單純的消費糾紛因為很多地方如果典交的狀況沒有處理好它其實會衍生變成公益大家管理的問題有一些人認為典交要趕快給它過因為我要動之公共基金有一些人認為我們堅持要在訴訟上討個公道然後就變成各派各系就這樣\n\n00:50.238 --> 01:07.492\n衍生出來然後甚至住戶之間彼此傷害所以點交的問題不會只有單純消費糾紛但是會影響公寓大廈的管理那點交的大概幾個問題我分別請問各個單位第一我要請教的叫做點交的不平等條約的問題我要請問我們的地政司啊\n\n01:08.272 --> 01:27.454\n現在規定裡面其實針對這個買賣預售屋的契約裡面其實有所謂的因記載事項有談到所謂的一個點交的一個權利義務關係也就是說你點交的時候要完成哪一些的程序但問題是你在不得記載的事項裡面其實本席認為這個規定上面是有一些疏漏的\n\n01:28.311 --> 01:50.647\n為什麼這樣說呢因為有很多建商就我們在第一線的了解他就會在這個預售屋的買賣契約裡面去訂定一些比如說這個你看螢幕上面就有寫啊如果賣方沒有在指定期限內會同檢測或移交超過幾天幾天那我們就自動認定點交已經完成那關懷會未來就要自行負責這些公共\n\n01:51.387 --> 02:16.463\n設施的管理維護保養等工作右邊這邊寫管理委員會或成立負責人推選三個月內要趕快來處理移交事宜如果沒有辦法成立管理委員會或推選負責人以至於不能進行公設典交那我一樣要視為已檢設移交完成買方要無條件的解除賣方在共有部分的管理責任換言之他可以在買賣企業裡面自行去定義所謂的不平等條約讓這些買到預售屋的人\n\n02:18.864 --> 02:43.055\n還來不及去處理這些事情的時候他就自動點交那這當然就會衍生後面的爭議嘛對不對那我想請問一下地政司啊你們管理這不動產買賣契約等等的請問這這樣子的一個不平等條款有沒有修正或再規範的空間跟委員報告一下非常感謝委員委員提到這些狀況其實我們現在每年都有請地方政府去做預售屋那個稽查計畫包含我們跟消保處也在做一些共同的契約的稽查\n\n02:44.255 --> 03:03.021\n那委員提到這些不公平的事項的部分其實我們有發現所以我們有去整理缺失事項包含像這種事項的部分我們已經有訂定一個缺失事項的部分去做一個以後稽查的一個重點那包含建上如果有違反這個部分的話我們都會有一些罰則就是6到30萬的罰則而且要求改善\n\n03:05.382 --> 03:23.793\n那這個部分的話委員有提到不得記載這個事項會變成一個通案性的一個修正的部分所以那個未來我們也會把一些太陽的部分看是不是檢討進來做一個不得記載事項你現在自然要回答OK表示你有關注到這件事情但是你看以罰則來講跟你的動作來講我認為是不成比例的\n\n03:23.933 --> 03:43.211\n也就是說我花很多的精力去要求地方政府去稽查啊然後稽查到有所謂的不平等條約罰款我剛剛聽最高講30萬如果你建商可以搞定一個公司的典交對不對你可以省多少錢對不對所以30萬對很多建商來講恐怕是不痛不癢的事情所以正本清源之道其實還是把這個買賣就相關的契約的規範做一個嚴加的檢討\n\n03:45.993 --> 04:00.610\n既然地政司有討論到所有的樣態那這未來的一些修正的方向我請地政司我給你一個月的時間你要研擬一個報告因為你總要有通案性的一些檢討作為嘛用什麼樣的方式來改進去避免公社裡要出現不平等條款這第一個問題市長可以答應嗎\n\n04:01.371 --> 04:16.721\n我們先一個月之內就委員了只是先把我們發現到的一些事情跟一些做法你還不想喔我是想說不得記載事項你有沒有一些建議事項規定我們來討論一下這個東西怎麼做修訂嘛充分討論之後再決定可以嗎好市長請坐再來我要請問國土署\n\n04:17.681 --> 04:35.998\n這個我要問國度署的問題是我們要今天討論典交的第二個問題叫做典交球員兼裁判的問題還有我們典交公共設施專業性的問題這個剛剛我們張宏錄稍微也有提到對不對其實典交在實務上我們都認知到最大的現象就是我在預售的時候他一些沒有賣出去所以他基本上屬於建商的\n\n04:36.434 --> 05:05.393\n所以就會按照區分所有權的這樣的比例的席次產生所謂的第一屆管委會第一屆管委會如果這房子沒有賣完那建商派他當然很容易的取得多數的這樣的一個優勢那建商派我又是管委會的成員我又自己又要負責點交那我變求援兼裁判那很多點交的過程之中他可能就會變異形式那少數派也就是真正買住戶他可能會團結起來可能抗議或什麼從第一屆管委會開始就互相傷害打官司這就是公共大樓管理問題嘛\n\n05:06.534 --> 05:19.929\n對不對那麼這個球員兼裁判的問題我們該如何來避免如何避免社區如何確保我們的社區其他區分所有權人相關的一些權益署長你有想法嗎跟委員報告因為上次大概有提\n\n05:21.491 --> 05:32.997\n目前來講最大的狀態就是說我們要去適用到相關的罰則的話因為所謂的保留戶在實體上來講他還是屬於個人戶啦這關鍵其實是在這裡啦所以應該是說怎麼樣去具體去確認這個點交的過程當中他做了相關的檢測是正確的\n\n05:43.263 --> 06:03.515\n那這一點我覺得是實務上第一點要再去做我們還是要去強化這一個機制啦因為過程當中的確有可能因為就是保留戶太多他對於相關的檢測的部分是比較粗糙的是啊是比較粗糙的所以怎麼樣去強化這中間的機制這是第一個那當然也有人提出來說用第三方\n\n06:04.335 --> 06:22.917\n這件事情那第三方這件事情的話我們就要回歸另外一個事實是說第三方真正的責任是在哪裡那現在坊間的業務公司當然很多是在做這一件事但是我們也看到有些是做超出的那所以上次委員有說這樣的建議以後我們也有內部討論也有找\n\n06:24.377 --> 06:45.226\n建研所在討論這件事情也就是說是不是就有關除了建築法規以外的項目建築法規以外的項目那但是對民眾來講他認為很重要只是說就仿建項目我們是不是有找建研所來談說是不是哪一些我們請建研所就這些項目去進行所謂的標準的認定\n\n06:46.400 --> 07:11.856\n作為標準的認定那這樣就可以提供給第三方他是做這樣的一個方式你剛剛回答都是一些實務上在就如何讓這個點交這個過程的公信力可以提升嘛讓雙方可以這樣這是一個解決方式沒有錯但我們今天問的問題還是求人兼裁判的問題嘛那其實剛剛張宏祿照理在質詢他提的概念很好嘛就是說如果他是有未賣出或什麼的他應該排除試用在比例上做修正主管對這個想法這個概念的想法可是很多實務上他是已經登記是個人啦\n\n07:13.337 --> 07:28.080\n登記資格關鍵其實是在這裡我們針對這件事情來做一下研討我們要怎麼樣去避免產生這樣的狀況好不好這一樣我們花一點時間我們給地震室一個月我也給你一個月因為未來我們可能要提供大家管理條件的修正是不是要透過修法的方式來處理\n\n07:28.781 --> 07:51.520\n我請國土署預作準備好不好那再來剛剛我講的專業性的部分還沒專業性的部分我們桃園這幾天剛好在議會在開臨時會很快會通過我們的公寓大廈輔導管理條例自治條例那裡面裡面他其實有談到就是說點交當然會很多時候爭議但因為點交你整包卡住的時候他其實會變相影響這個公寓大廈裡面的公共設施一些安全比如消防設備等等那麼\n\n07:52.341 --> 08:12.717\n桃園另外關注的地方就是說相關比如說消防又涉及專業的這些公共設施點交的時候他會要求要有具有國家相關專業機師證照的人員來參與點交讓這個點交的公信力上升其實就是剛剛署長回應的其中的一部分精神上是類似的那這樣子的一個修法的方向這個請問從中央的角度你怎麼看待\n\n08:14.218 --> 08:28.165\n應該這麼說如果他針對的是就安全部分對而且是法規有的部分那我們長期知道的是比較多的爭議是出在法規以外的當然法規以外這部分我覺得在在他們的條例裡面\n\n08:29.372 --> 08:54.458\n其實如果真的要去我們當然是樂觀其成但是我是建議他在真實在落實上來講要把法規有的跟法規以外的法規以外是我們剛剛討論的那一部分嘛譬如說全員監裁辦怎麼處理法規以外包含說你檢測的項目不是在法規裡面的那事實上實務上也是出現的確有在檢測這些項目那這些在條例裡面需要去釐清我只做這個法規內的\n\n08:56.238 --> 09:10.515\n法規之外的不屬於我這支條例那可是實務上會遇到民眾還是會需要這些項目比如說我這個水平有沒有拉得很急我這個牆壁所謂的聖水或者是所謂的軍列\n\n09:11.596 --> 09:36.542\n他的意義是什麼但是這不是在法規內的可是民眾會很在意這些那個是消費消費端大家會在意所以我才會建議是說我們也跟今天所討論是不是說要給某些項目一些標準不要讓大家到最後留以各說各話甚至影響典礁我覺得這是很重要的所以你說從重要的角度你看其實說除了安全的部分有技師認證那是一種好的方向之外你如果可以設立一個客觀標準讓大家可是參考也是一個好的方式嗎\n\n09:37.482 --> 10:03.914\n那如果這部分我如果要行於比如說公寓大廈管理條例的條例我建議是可是它會涉及到是母法因為你的母法建築房建築沒有這些項目沒有這些項目我講的這以外的話我們是給它一些標準讓大家執行一個依據就好了來如果再改善這部分我一樣請你會有提供書面報告好不好就是方法上不管你政策的方式或者是法律的方式我們要有一個判斷商量可以嗎好謝謝署長請休息一下消保處\n\n10:06.385 --> 10:25.135\n我們現在針對這個買賣相關個別專有的部分有沒有其實有一個5%保留款的規定嘛它其實就是為了避免預防消費糾紛嘛對不對那為什麼公共設施的部分沒有相關的一個保留款的一個設計如果在沒有的一個情況之下你怎麼去保護消費者的權益因為我們剛剛就討論供應大家的典交很多時候是買賣雙方認知歧異很大\n\n10:27.196 --> 10:43.925\n但是目前大家實務上看到的狀況都是非常偏向建商的嘛建商有相對好的保障跟福利不管是不平衡條約他可以偷搞對不對他可以搞球員兼裁判對不對那我做為房屋的買方或所有權利人我權利是被拆散的我要對抗這個東西很難他就衍生消費糾紛\n\n10:44.805 --> 11:10.420\n有沒有什麼樣的機制可以改善這樣的狀況是謝謝委員那目前因為5%的保留款是針對這個專有部分的那一些公用部分是沒有所以我們在今天的報告裡面的有一個建議是像說也許也可以評估看看說是不是針對公用部分也有一個交付保留款的不過這個部分因為這個制度有要變革可能還是需要內政部再洽一些消保團體還有一些業者一起來討論有沒有這個可行性或者有其他的措施來保護這個消費者\n\n11:11.561 --> 11:28.882\n我希望蕭保惠這邊相對積極一點就是說你們打算在多少時間內開這樣的會議去去釐清這樣的狀況然後變成一個務實可行的政策我們通常是我們通常我們先或先跟內我們其實跟內政部一直都有非常好的配合那我們有些建議我們就會提供給他們那他們一開始會找一些業者\n\n11:30.484 --> 11:49.969\n那看如果是需要修公益大廈管理條例的話我們也會協助那如果是需要修這個預售屋的英記載或不得記載事項的話我們也會跟他們做比較深入的討論一個月內提相關的意見好不好我們會跟他進一步討論好謝謝好謝謝那這個其他人請回國土組長再麻煩你一下下對不起我收個尾就好好不好\n\n11:50.936 --> 12:02.084\n我們最後一個要跟署長討論的概念就是說因為現在點交的狀況點交不成現在實務上剛剛遇到的狀況客觀產生的後果除了這些交費糾紛之外就是我的住戶沒有辦法拿回公共基金嘛\n\n12:02.745 --> 12:25.738\n當初大家要提撥公共基金其實就變成要求建商依法提撥對不對依法提撥公共基金就是建商的建設成本嘛那既然是建設成本再商延商他一定到時候轉嫁給消費者換言之這些公共基金到時候羊毛出在羊身上其實還是有買房子的人去進行負擔那如果公設點交卡關以致公共基金沒有辦法動用我以台灣市111年這個審計處提供的報告來講就快10億的金額卡在那個地方沒有辦法有效動用\n\n12:30.140 --> 12:55.415\n後來我們桃園直接很瘋狂他直接講說如果你真的十年啊給你十年屢次輔導都不願意配合者我就只好把他充公那這其實也是蠻奇怪的但是他看起來是一個沒有方法的方法那現在也越多人上次我們開公寓大廈管理條例公聽會的時候其實有在思考就是說公共基金跟公設典交要脫鉤處理如果要脫鉤處理的方式是不是一個好的方法如果沒有的話我們要怎麼避免公共基金因為公設典交卡關的問題我們最後一點點時間請署長簡單回答\n\n12:58.969 --> 13:23.752\n的確目前我們還是朝向還是他得把這個管委會還有相關的這個典交程序是完成因為所有的法規現在扣合都是扣合在這個資料角度身上那因為你不成立然後你不完成這個動作其實你的公積金就會違反他使用的一個目的所以你看母法規定其實會在實務上地方出現一些斷裂對對對所以我才會說這個部分\n\n13:25.053 --> 13:52.590\n在實務上來講他不是適合去用修法的方式但是我覺得可以一樣可以跟地方政府再來討論實務上地方政府願不願意來提供一個協助譬如說他現在又有一個條例可以去做的話那不是不是用成立經驗而是有類似長期是不是願意用信託的概念把它放進去那也確保大家的一個機制存在那裡面但是這個當然實務上要去操作的話很可能還要跟\n\n13:53.140 --> 14:22.239\n相關的財政單位或是銀行要去談這些事情今年是公寓大廈管理條例30週年嘛大家都希望說有一些合理的調整那我當然認同不是所有的方法不是所有的改變都一定要透過修法方式來處理沒錯它也許是政策也許是行政命令等等但是我的意思是說總要有很明確的方向所以我們今天排這個專報其實希望大家來及時廣義啊所以這幾個問題啊剛剛我提到這幾個大的問題都希望各個單位待會去之後會後盡速提供相關的資料作為未來深入探討的參考可以嗎\n\n14:23.821 --> 14:24.502\n好大家辛苦了謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.412,"end":11.095,"text":"謝謝主席 地政司國土署跟消保處有請請以上的各位辛苦了 這個我們今天專案報告的主題其實是討論公寓大廈的一個點交相關一些爭議"},{"start":27.304,"end":49.418,"text":"那就本期的一些了解我們在地方走動其實典交爭議它不是只是單純的消費糾紛因為很多地方如果典交的狀況沒有處理好它其實會衍生變成公益大家管理的問題有一些人認為典交要趕快給它過因為我要動之公共基金有一些人認為我們堅持要在訴訟上討個公道然後就變成各派各系就這樣"},{"start":50.238,"end":67.492,"text":"衍生出來然後甚至住戶之間彼此傷害所以點交的問題不會只有單純消費糾紛但是會影響公寓大廈的管理那點交的大概幾個問題我分別請問各個單位第一我要請教的叫做點交的不平等條約的問題我要請問我們的地政司啊"},{"start":68.272,"end":87.454,"text":"現在規定裡面其實針對這個買賣預售屋的契約裡面其實有所謂的因記載事項有談到所謂的一個點交的一個權利義務關係也就是說你點交的時候要完成哪一些的程序但問題是你在不得記載的事項裡面其實本席認為這個規定上面是有一些疏漏的"},{"start":88.311,"end":110.647,"text":"為什麼這樣說呢因為有很多建商就我們在第一線的了解他就會在這個預售屋的買賣契約裡面去訂定一些比如說這個你看螢幕上面就有寫啊如果賣方沒有在指定期限內會同檢測或移交超過幾天幾天那我們就自動認定點交已經完成那關懷會未來就要自行負責這些公共"},{"start":111.387,"end":136.463,"text":"設施的管理維護保養等工作右邊這邊寫管理委員會或成立負責人推選三個月內要趕快來處理移交事宜如果沒有辦法成立管理委員會或推選負責人以至於不能進行公設典交那我一樣要視為已檢設移交完成買方要無條件的解除賣方在共有部分的管理責任換言之他可以在買賣企業裡面自行去定義所謂的不平等條約讓這些買到預售屋的人"},{"start":138.864,"end":163.055,"text":"還來不及去處理這些事情的時候他就自動點交那這當然就會衍生後面的爭議嘛對不對那我想請問一下地政司啊你們管理這不動產買賣契約等等的請問這這樣子的一個不平等條款有沒有修正或再規範的空間跟委員報告一下非常感謝委員委員提到這些狀況其實我們現在每年都有請地方政府去做預售屋那個稽查計畫包含我們跟消保處也在做一些共同的契約的稽查"},{"start":164.255,"end":183.021,"text":"那委員提到這些不公平的事項的部分其實我們有發現所以我們有去整理缺失事項包含像這種事項的部分我們已經有訂定一個缺失事項的部分去做一個以後稽查的一個重點那包含建上如果有違反這個部分的話我們都會有一些罰則就是6到30萬的罰則而且要求改善"},{"start":185.382,"end":203.793,"text":"那這個部分的話委員有提到不得記載這個事項會變成一個通案性的一個修正的部分所以那個未來我們也會把一些太陽的部分看是不是檢討進來做一個不得記載事項你現在自然要回答OK表示你有關注到這件事情但是你看以罰則來講跟你的動作來講我認為是不成比例的"},{"start":203.933,"end":223.211,"text":"也就是說我花很多的精力去要求地方政府去稽查啊然後稽查到有所謂的不平等條約罰款我剛剛聽最高講30萬如果你建商可以搞定一個公司的典交對不對你可以省多少錢對不對所以30萬對很多建商來講恐怕是不痛不癢的事情所以正本清源之道其實還是把這個買賣就相關的契約的規範做一個嚴加的檢討"},{"start":225.993,"end":240.61,"text":"既然地政司有討論到所有的樣態那這未來的一些修正的方向我請地政司我給你一個月的時間你要研擬一個報告因為你總要有通案性的一些檢討作為嘛用什麼樣的方式來改進去避免公社裡要出現不平等條款這第一個問題市長可以答應嗎"},{"start":241.371,"end":256.721,"text":"我們先一個月之內就委員了只是先把我們發現到的一些事情跟一些做法你還不想喔我是想說不得記載事項你有沒有一些建議事項規定我們來討論一下這個東西怎麼做修訂嘛充分討論之後再決定可以嗎好市長請坐再來我要請問國土署"},{"start":257.681,"end":275.998,"text":"這個我要問國度署的問題是我們要今天討論典交的第二個問題叫做典交球員兼裁判的問題還有我們典交公共設施專業性的問題這個剛剛我們張宏錄稍微也有提到對不對其實典交在實務上我們都認知到最大的現象就是我在預售的時候他一些沒有賣出去所以他基本上屬於建商的"},{"start":276.434,"end":305.393,"text":"所以就會按照區分所有權的這樣的比例的席次產生所謂的第一屆管委會第一屆管委會如果這房子沒有賣完那建商派他當然很容易的取得多數的這樣的一個優勢那建商派我又是管委會的成員我又自己又要負責點交那我變求援兼裁判那很多點交的過程之中他可能就會變異形式那少數派也就是真正買住戶他可能會團結起來可能抗議或什麼從第一屆管委會開始就互相傷害打官司這就是公共大樓管理問題嘛"},{"start":306.534,"end":319.929,"text":"對不對那麼這個球員兼裁判的問題我們該如何來避免如何避免社區如何確保我們的社區其他區分所有權人相關的一些權益署長你有想法嗎跟委員報告因為上次大概有提"},{"start":321.491,"end":332.997,"text":"目前來講最大的狀態就是說我們要去適用到相關的罰則的話因為所謂的保留戶在實體上來講他還是屬於個人戶啦這關鍵其實是在這裡啦所以應該是說怎麼樣去具體去確認這個點交的過程當中他做了相關的檢測是正確的"},{"start":343.263,"end":363.515,"text":"那這一點我覺得是實務上第一點要再去做我們還是要去強化這一個機制啦因為過程當中的確有可能因為就是保留戶太多他對於相關的檢測的部分是比較粗糙的是啊是比較粗糙的所以怎麼樣去強化這中間的機制這是第一個那當然也有人提出來說用第三方"},{"start":364.335,"end":382.917,"text":"這件事情那第三方這件事情的話我們就要回歸另外一個事實是說第三方真正的責任是在哪裡那現在坊間的業務公司當然很多是在做這一件事但是我們也看到有些是做超出的那所以上次委員有說這樣的建議以後我們也有內部討論也有找"},{"start":384.377,"end":405.226,"text":"建研所在討論這件事情也就是說是不是就有關除了建築法規以外的項目建築法規以外的項目那但是對民眾來講他認為很重要只是說就仿建項目我們是不是有找建研所來談說是不是哪一些我們請建研所就這些項目去進行所謂的標準的認定"},{"start":406.4,"end":431.856,"text":"作為標準的認定那這樣就可以提供給第三方他是做這樣的一個方式你剛剛回答都是一些實務上在就如何讓這個點交這個過程的公信力可以提升嘛讓雙方可以這樣這是一個解決方式沒有錯但我們今天問的問題還是求人兼裁判的問題嘛那其實剛剛張宏祿照理在質詢他提的概念很好嘛就是說如果他是有未賣出或什麼的他應該排除試用在比例上做修正主管對這個想法這個概念的想法可是很多實務上他是已經登記是個人啦"},{"start":433.337,"end":448.08,"text":"登記資格關鍵其實是在這裡我們針對這件事情來做一下研討我們要怎麼樣去避免產生這樣的狀況好不好這一樣我們花一點時間我們給地震室一個月我也給你一個月因為未來我們可能要提供大家管理條件的修正是不是要透過修法的方式來處理"},{"start":448.781,"end":471.52,"text":"我請國土署預作準備好不好那再來剛剛我講的專業性的部分還沒專業性的部分我們桃園這幾天剛好在議會在開臨時會很快會通過我們的公寓大廈輔導管理條例自治條例那裡面裡面他其實有談到就是說點交當然會很多時候爭議但因為點交你整包卡住的時候他其實會變相影響這個公寓大廈裡面的公共設施一些安全比如消防設備等等那麼"},{"start":472.341,"end":492.717,"text":"桃園另外關注的地方就是說相關比如說消防又涉及專業的這些公共設施點交的時候他會要求要有具有國家相關專業機師證照的人員來參與點交讓這個點交的公信力上升其實就是剛剛署長回應的其中的一部分精神上是類似的那這樣子的一個修法的方向這個請問從中央的角度你怎麼看待"},{"start":494.218,"end":508.165,"text":"應該這麼說如果他針對的是就安全部分對而且是法規有的部分那我們長期知道的是比較多的爭議是出在法規以外的當然法規以外這部分我覺得在在他們的條例裡面"},{"start":509.372,"end":534.458,"text":"其實如果真的要去我們當然是樂觀其成但是我是建議他在真實在落實上來講要把法規有的跟法規以外的法規以外是我們剛剛討論的那一部分嘛譬如說全員監裁辦怎麼處理法規以外包含說你檢測的項目不是在法規裡面的那事實上實務上也是出現的確有在檢測這些項目那這些在條例裡面需要去釐清我只做這個法規內的"},{"start":536.238,"end":550.515,"text":"法規之外的不屬於我這支條例那可是實務上會遇到民眾還是會需要這些項目比如說我這個水平有沒有拉得很急我這個牆壁所謂的聖水或者是所謂的軍列"},{"start":551.596,"end":576.542,"text":"他的意義是什麼但是這不是在法規內的可是民眾會很在意這些那個是消費消費端大家會在意所以我才會建議是說我們也跟今天所討論是不是說要給某些項目一些標準不要讓大家到最後留以各說各話甚至影響典礁我覺得這是很重要的所以你說從重要的角度你看其實說除了安全的部分有技師認證那是一種好的方向之外你如果可以設立一個客觀標準讓大家可是參考也是一個好的方式嗎"},{"start":577.482,"end":603.914,"text":"那如果這部分我如果要行於比如說公寓大廈管理條例的條例我建議是可是它會涉及到是母法因為你的母法建築房建築沒有這些項目沒有這些項目我講的這以外的話我們是給它一些標準讓大家執行一個依據就好了來如果再改善這部分我一樣請你會有提供書面報告好不好就是方法上不管你政策的方式或者是法律的方式我們要有一個判斷商量可以嗎好謝謝署長請休息一下消保處"},{"start":606.385,"end":625.135,"text":"我們現在針對這個買賣相關個別專有的部分有沒有其實有一個5%保留款的規定嘛它其實就是為了避免預防消費糾紛嘛對不對那為什麼公共設施的部分沒有相關的一個保留款的一個設計如果在沒有的一個情況之下你怎麼去保護消費者的權益因為我們剛剛就討論供應大家的典交很多時候是買賣雙方認知歧異很大"},{"start":627.196,"end":643.925,"text":"但是目前大家實務上看到的狀況都是非常偏向建商的嘛建商有相對好的保障跟福利不管是不平衡條約他可以偷搞對不對他可以搞球員兼裁判對不對那我做為房屋的買方或所有權利人我權利是被拆散的我要對抗這個東西很難他就衍生消費糾紛"},{"start":644.805,"end":670.42,"text":"有沒有什麼樣的機制可以改善這樣的狀況是 謝謝委員那目前因為5%的保留款是針對這個專有部分的那一些公用部分是沒有所以我們在今天的報告裡面的有一個建議是像說也許也可以評估看看說是不是針對公用部分也有一個交付保留款的不過這個部分因為這個制度有要變革可能還是需要內政部再洽一些消保團體還有一些業者一起來討論有沒有這個可行性或者有其他的措施來保護這個消費者"},{"start":671.561,"end":688.882,"text":"我希望蕭保惠這邊相對積極一點就是說你們打算在多少時間內開這樣的會議去去釐清這樣的狀況然後變成一個務實可行的政策我們通常是我們通常我們先或先跟內我們其實跟內政部一直都有非常好的配合那我們有些建議我們就會提供給他們那他們一開始會找一些業者"},{"start":690.484,"end":709.969,"text":"那看如果是需要修公益大廈管理條例的話我們也會協助那如果是需要修這個預售屋的英記載或不得記載事項的話我們也會跟他們做比較深入的討論一個月內提相關的意見好不好我們會跟他進一步討論好謝謝好謝謝那這個其他人請回國土組長再麻煩你一下下對不起我收個尾就好好不好"},{"start":710.936,"end":722.084,"text":"我們最後一個要跟署長討論的概念就是說因為現在點交的狀況點交不成現在實務上剛剛遇到的狀況客觀產生的後果除了這些交費糾紛之外就是我的住戶沒有辦法拿回公共基金嘛"},{"start":722.745,"end":745.738,"text":"當初大家要提撥公共基金其實就變成要求建商依法提撥對不對依法提撥公共基金就是建商的建設成本嘛那既然是建設成本 再商延商他一定到時候轉嫁給消費者換言之這些公共基金到時候羊毛出在羊身上其實還是有買房子的人去進行負擔那如果公設點交卡關以致公共基金沒有辦法動用我以台灣市111年這個審計處提供的報告來講就快10億的金額卡在那個地方沒有辦法有效動用"},{"start":750.14,"end":775.415,"text":"後來我們桃園直接很瘋狂他直接講說如果你真的十年啊給你十年屢次輔導都不願意配合者我就只好把他充公那這其實也是蠻奇怪的但是他看起來是一個沒有方法的方法那現在也越多人上次我們開公寓大廈管理條例公聽會的時候其實有在思考就是說公共基金跟公設典交要脫鉤處理如果要脫鉤處理的方式是不是一個好的方法如果沒有的話我們要怎麼避免公共基金因為公設典交卡關的問題我們最後一點點時間請署長簡單回答"},{"start":778.969,"end":803.752,"text":"的確目前我們還是朝向還是他得把這個管委會還有相關的這個典交程序是完成因為所有的法規現在扣合都是扣合在這個資料角度身上那因為你不成立然後你不完成這個動作其實你的公積金就會違反他使用的一個目的所以你看母法規定其實會在實務上地方出現一些斷裂對對對所以我才會說這個部分"},{"start":805.053,"end":832.59,"text":"在實務上來講他不是適合去用修法的方式但是我覺得可以一樣可以跟地方政府再來討論實務上地方政府願不願意來提供一個協助譬如說他現在又有一個條例可以去做的話那不是不是用成立經驗而是有類似長期是不是願意用信託的概念把它放進去那也確保大家的一個機制存在那裡面但是這個當然實務上要去操作的話很可能還要跟"},{"start":833.14,"end":862.239,"text":"相關的財政單位或是銀行要去談這些事情今年是公寓大廈管理條例30週年嘛大家都希望說有一些合理的調整那我當然認同不是所有的方法不是所有的改變都一定要透過修法方式來處理沒錯它也許是政策也許是行政命令等等但是我的意思是說總要有很明確的方向所以我們今天排這個專報其實希望大家來及時廣義啊所以這幾個問題啊剛剛我提到這幾個大的問題都希望各個單位待會去之後會後盡速提供相關的資料作為未來深入探討的參考可以嗎"},{"start":863.821,"end":864.502,"text":"好大家辛苦了謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":604,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請地政司、國土署和消保處。"],["主席：請以上單位相關官員備詢。"],["牛委員煦庭：各位辛苦了。今天專案報告的主題其實是要討論公寓大廈公設點交的相關爭議，本席在地方走動，瞭解點交爭議不只是單純的消費糾紛，如果點交的狀況沒有處理好，會衍生變成公寓大廈管理的問題。有些人認為點交要趕快通過，以便動支公共基金，有些人則堅持要在訴訟上討個公道，各派各系看法不同，住戶之間甚至彼此傷害，所以點交的問題不只是單純的消費糾紛，也會影響公寓大廈的管理。","有關點交的幾個問題，我分別請教各個單位。第一個是有關點交的不平等條約，這個問題要請教地政司。根據現行規定，預售屋買賣契約中的「應記載事項」有提到點交的權利義務關係，也就是點交時要完成哪些程序，問題是在「不得記載事項」裡面，本席認為相關規定是有一些疏漏的。為什麼這樣說呢？根據我們在第一線的瞭解，很多建商會在預售屋的買賣契約裡面訂定一些條款，比如說如果管委會沒有在賣方指定期間內會同檢測或移交，超過幾天、幾天，就自動認定點交已經完成，管委會未來就要自己負責公共設施的管理、維護、保養等工作。又或者是說，管委會成立或管理負責人推選後3個月內，要趕快處理移交事宜，如果沒有辦法成立管委會或推選管理負責人，而不能進行公設點交，同樣視為已檢測、移交完成，買方要無條件解除賣方在共有部分的管理責任。換言之，他可以在買賣契約裡面自行訂定所謂的不平等條約，讓這些買到預售屋的人在還來不及處理這些事情的時候就自動完成點交，這當然就會衍生後續的爭議嘛！對不對？","我想請問一下地政司，你們負責管理不動產買賣契約等等的，對於這樣的不平等條款，有沒有修正或是再規範的空間？"],["林司長家正：跟委員報告，非常感謝委員。委員提到的這些狀況其實我們現在每年都有請地方政府去做預售屋的稽查計畫，包含我們跟消保處也在做一些共同契約的稽查。委員提到的這些不公平事項，其實我們也有發現，所以有整理出了缺失事項，即針對這些事項，我們已經訂有所謂的缺失事項，以作為以後稽查的重點，包含建商如果有違反這個部分的話，我們都會有一些罰責，就是處以6到30萬的罰責，並且要求改善。就這個部分，委員有提到不得記載事項，這會變成一個通案性的修正，所以未來我們也會檢討出一些態樣，看看能否把它放進來作為不得記載事項。"],["牛委員煦庭：司長現在的回答很OK，表示你有關注到這件事情，但是以罰責跟你的動作來講，我認為是不成比例的，也就是說，花很多精力去要求地方政府稽查，然後真的稽查到有所謂的不平等條約，我剛聽到你說罰鍰最高是30萬，但建商搞定一個公設點交就可以省多少錢？30萬對很多建商來講，恐怕是不痛不癢的事情，所以正本清源之道，其實還是應把買賣相關契約的規範嚴加的檢討。","既然地政司有討論到所謂的樣態，包括未來修正的方向，我給地政司1個月的時間，請研擬出一個報告，因為你總是要有通案性的檢討作為，包括用什麼樣的方式來改進並避免公設點交出現不平等條款，這是第一個問題，司長可以答應嗎？"],["林司長家正：我們會在1個月之內先就委員指示的，把我們發現到的一些事情跟一些作法……"],["牛委員煦庭：除了我說的不得記載事項，包括你們還有沒有一些建議事項等等，我們來討論一下，看看這個東西要怎麼修訂，經充分討論之後再來決定，可以嗎？"],["林司長家正：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，司長請坐。","再來，我要問國土署的問題是關於點交的第二個問題，就是點交球員兼裁判的問題，還有點交公共設施專業性的問題，剛剛張宏陸召委也有提到，其實點交在實務上，我們都認知到最大的現象就是在預售的時候還有一些沒有賣出去，基本上屬於建商的，所以就會按照區分所有權這樣比例的席次產生所謂的第1屆管委會，在第1屆管委會中，如果房子還沒有賣完，建商派當然很容易取得所謂多數的優勢，此時建商派既是管委會的成員，自己又要負責點交，這樣就會變成球員兼裁判，在很多點交的過程之中，它可能就會便宜行事；而少數派，也就是真正買房的這些住戶，可能會團結起來提出抗議或是採取一些行動，從第1屆管委會開始就互相傷害、打官司，這就是公寓大廈的管理問題，對不對？關於球員兼裁判的問題，我們該如何避免、該如何確保社區其他區分所有權人相關的一些權益，署長，你有想法嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為上次大院有提過，目前來講，最大的狀態就是我們要去適用相關罰則時，因為有所謂的保留戶，在實體上來講，它還是屬於個人戶，關鍵其實是在這裡，所以應該是說，怎麼樣具體去確認在點交的過程當中，它做的相關檢測是正確的，我覺得這是實務上第一點要去做的。當然我們還要再去強化這個機制，因為過程當中的確有可能因為保留戶太多，對於相關的檢測可能會比較粗糙。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["吳署長欣修：所以怎麼樣去強化這中間的機制，這是第一個，當然也有人提出要用第三方，針對第三方這件事情，我們就要回歸到另外一個事實，就是第三方真正的責任是在哪裡？現在坊間的驗屋公司當然很多是在做檢測這一件事，但是我們也看到有些做的是超出範圍的。上次委員提出建議以後，我們內部有討論，也有找建研所來討論這件事情，也就是說，雖然是建築法規以外的項目，但是對民眾來講，他認為很重要，所以就坊間檢測的項目，我們找了建研所來談，請建研所就這些項目進行所謂標準的認定，這樣就可以提供給第三方防弊。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長，你剛剛回答的都是一些實務上如何讓點交過程的公信力可以提升，讓雙方可以相信，這是一個解決方式，沒有錯，但我們今天問的問題，還是球員兼裁判的問題。其實剛剛張宏陸召委在質詢的時候提的概念很好，就是如果有未賣出或是什麼的，就應該排除適用，在比例上修正，署長對於這個概念、想法有何看法？"],["吳署長欣修：可是很多在實務上都已經登記是個人的。"],["牛委員煦庭：登記是個人的？"],["吳署長欣修：是，所以關鍵其實是在這裡。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們就針對這件事情來研討，看看要怎麼樣去避免產生這樣的狀況，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：一樣的，就花一點時間，我們給地政司1個月，所以我也給你1個月，大家一起來思考，因為未來我們可能要提公寓大廈管理條例的修正，看看是不是要透過修法方式來處理，我請國土署預做準備，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：再來，剛剛我講的是專業性的部分，桃園議會這幾天剛好在開臨時會，很快地會通過公寓大廈輔導管理自治條例的修正，而裡面其實有談到點交的部分，當然很多時候會有爭議，因為點交整包卡住的時候，會變相影響公寓大廈裡面公共設施的安全，比方說消防設備等等；桃園另外還有一個關注的地方，比如消防、涉及專業的公共設施在點交的時候，會要求要具有國家相關專業技師證照的人員來參與點交，讓點交的公信力上升，就是剛剛署長回應的其中一部分，精神上是類似的，針對這樣的修法方向，請問從中央的角度，你怎麼看待？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，如果針對的是公共安全，而且是法規內有的部分，但我們知道長期下來比較多的爭議是出在法規以外的。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然。"],["吳署長欣修：法規以外的部分，我覺得在他們的條例裡面，如果真的要確認、修正，我們當然是樂觀其成，但我是建議在真實的落實上，要把法規有的跟法規以外的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，法規以外的是我們剛剛討論的那個部分，比如說球員兼裁判怎麼處理等等，是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：不是！不是！法規以外包含了檢測的項目不是在法規裡面的，事實上、實務上也出現的確有在檢測這些項目，這些要在條例裡面釐清，看看是否只做法規內的項目，還是有包括法規之外的、不屬於該自治條例的，可是實務上會遇到民眾還是會需要這些項目，比如水平有沒有拉得很齊？牆壁所謂的滲水或者龜裂，它的意義是什麼？但這不是在法規內的，可是民眾會很在意這些問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：那個是消費端大家會在意的。"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才會建議，即剛才提到我們也跟建研所討論，就是某些項目訂定一些標準，不要讓大家到最後流於各說各話，甚至影響點交，我覺得這是很重要的一件事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你說從中央的角度來看，除了安全的部分有技師認證，那是一種好的方向之外，你認為如果可以設立一個客觀標準，讓大家可資參考，也是一個好的方式嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對！對！"],["牛委員煦庭：這部分如果我要行之於比如說公寓大廈管理條例，即建議予以修正，則你有沒有什麼看法？"],["吳署長欣修：可是它會涉及到母法，因為它的母法包括了建築法及其他，當中並沒有這些項目，我剛講的法規以外的部分，我們是給它一些標準，讓大家執行上有一個依據就好。"],["牛委員煦庭：就改善這一部分來說，我一樣請你會後提供書面報告，好不好？就是方法上不管你是以政策的方式或者是法律的方式，我們要有一個判斷的參考，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。署長請休息一下，接著請教消保處。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們現在針對買賣相關的，即個別專有的部分有一個5%保留款的規定，其實就是為了避免預防消費糾紛，對不對？為什麼公共設施的部分沒有相關保留款的設計？在沒有這樣設計的情況之下，你怎麼去保護消費者權益？因為我們剛剛有討論到公寓大廈的點交，很多時候是買賣雙方認知歧異很大，但目前大家實務上看到的狀況，都是非常偏向建商的，建商有相對好的保障跟福利，不管是不平等條約中可以偷搞或可以搞球員兼裁判，此時我作為房屋的買方或所有權人，權利是被拆散的，我要對抗這個東西很難，此時就衍生消費糾紛，有沒有什麼樣的機制可以改善這樣的狀況？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：是，謝謝委員，目前因為5%的保留款是針對專有部分，公用部分是沒有的，所以我們在今天的報告裡面有一個建議事項，也許可以評估看看，是不是針對公用部分也有交屋保留款的規定。不過就這個部分，因為這個制度若要變革，可能還是需要內政部再洽一些消保團體還有業者，一起來討論有沒有可行性或者有其他的措施來保護消費者。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望消保會可以相對積極一點，你們打算在多少時間內召開會議去釐清這樣的狀況，然後變成一個務實可行的政策？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：我們跟內政部一直都有非常好的配合。"],["牛委員煦庭：一直都有對話，那很好啊！"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：我們有一些建議會提供給他們，他們一開始會找一些業者來討論，如果需要修公寓大廈管理條例，我們也會協助；如果是需要修預售屋的應記載或不得記載事項，我們也會跟他們做比較深入的討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：1個月請提出相關的意見，好不好？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：好，我們會跟內政部討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望能有一個版本出來。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，其他人請回。","國土署署長，再麻煩你一下下，讓我收個尾，好不好？最後要跟署長討論一個概念，關於點交不成，在實務上剛才有提到一些客觀產生的狀況、後果，除了這些消費糾紛之外，就是住戶沒有辦法拿回公共基金，當初大家要提撥公共基金，就變成要求建商依法提撥公共基金，就是建商的建設成本，既然是建設成本，在商言商，到時候它一定是轉嫁給消費者。換言之，這些公共基金到時候羊毛出在羊身上，其實還是由買房子的人去進行負擔，如果公設點交卡關，以至於公共基金沒有辦法動用，以桃園市111年審計處提供的報告來講，就快要有10億的金額卡在那個地方沒有辦法有效動用，後來桃園很瘋狂的直接表示，如果給10年屢次輔導都不願意配合者，就只好把它充公，這樣其實也是蠻奇怪的，但是它看起來是一個沒有方法的方法。上次我們開公寓大廈管理條例公聽會的時候，其實有在思考公共基金跟公設點交要脫鉤處理，脫鉤處理這種方式是不是一個好的方法？如果沒有脫鉤處理的話，我們要怎麼避免公共基金因為公設點交而卡關的問題？我們還有最後一點點時間，請署長簡單回答。"],["吳署長欣修：的確目前它還是必須成立管委會還有完成相關的點交程序，因為所有的法規現在都是扣合在這個角度上，如果不成立然後不完成這個動作，其實公基金就會違反它使用的目的。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以現在母法這樣規定，其實會在實務上出現一些斷裂。"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以我才會說這個部分在實務上來講並不適合用修法的方式，但是我覺得一樣可以跟地方政府再來討論，看地方政府願不願意來提供協助，譬如說它現在又可以依一個條例去做的話，不是用成立基金，而是類似把長期信託的概念放進去，那也確保大家權益的機制存在那裡面。但是在實務上要去操作的話，很可能還要跟相關的財政單位或是銀行去談這些事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年是公寓大廈管理條例30週年，大家都希望有一些合理的調整，那我當然認同不是所有的改變都一定要透過修法的方式來處理。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：也許是政策、也許是行政命令等等，但是我的意思是說，總是要有很明確的方向，所以我們今天排這個專報，其實是希望大家來集思廣益。"],["吳署長欣修：我了解。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以對我剛剛提到的這幾個大問題，都希望各個單位帶回去之後能儘速提供相關的資料，做為未來深入探討的參考，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：大家辛苦了，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委的質詢，也謝謝吳署長。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-26","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","黃建賓","李柏毅","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李坤城","謝龍介","黃國昌","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃健豪","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長就「公寓大廈公設點交爭議及其處理與預防作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、「住宅法」：(一)繼續審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法\n第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(三)繼續審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查\n委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)繼續審查委員賴士葆等17人\n擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、( 六) 繼續審查委員牛煦庭等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(八)繼續審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 九) 繼續審查委員羅智強等16 人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)繼續審查委\n員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十二)繼續審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具\n「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案、(十三)繼續審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部\n分條文修正草案」案、( 十四) 繼續審查委員李坤城等24 人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(十五)繼續審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)繼續審查委\n員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十七)繼續審查委員高金素梅等27人擬\n具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法\n第二條條文修正草案」案、(十九)繼續審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 繼續審查委員林倩綺等23 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(二十一)審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)審查委員\n陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、( 二十四) 審查委員許宇甄等20 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二十五)審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十六)審查委員\n林月琴等19人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十七)審查委員楊曜等22人擬具「住宅法\n第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二十八)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十五條\n及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(二十九)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(三十)審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十一)審查\n委員蘇巧慧等17 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 三十二) 審查委員羅明才等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十三)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「住宅法增訂第四條之\n一條文草案」案、(三十四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十九條及第二十條條\n文修正草案」案、(三十五)審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三\n十六)審查委員游顥等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十七)審查委員羅智強等\n16人擬具「住宅法第四十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(三十八)審查委員葉元之等19人擬\n具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案【進行專題報告及詢答，並宣讀住宅法第 ( 二十一) 案至第\n(三十八)案提案條文】","agenda_id":"1146201_00015"}}}