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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,403 --> 00:00:03,828\n好謝謝主席我們有請部長請部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,145 --> 00:00:37,437\n好那我想就是說今天我想要主要來討論也還是像是AI基本法跟以及我們AI基本法未來要制定的一些我們可能要考量的面向來跟部長做一些討論那就是說在2024年的時候呢7月5號日本發布日本的一個資訊通訊白皮書呢其中統計了多個國家的人在使用生成式AI的一個使用率那就發現說日本敬佩莫作啦說他們是最後一名那英國大概也是只有39.8%\n\n3\n00:00:40,329 --> 00:00:54,501\n那我們的MIC的資測會呢其實也做了在去年也做一個深層式AI的大調查那36%的網友其實都使用過這個深層式AI的工具那其中我們的年輕族群18到25歲的使用的比例呢又是更高\n\n4\n00:00:55,222 --> 00:01:19,178\n那這也因此呢在這個影響到了未來現在這個日本在做這個AI的人工智慧白皮書的第二版的時候他們宣示日本要成為世界上使用AI最friendly的國家作為他們當前的一個策略目標那其實他們也在今年的二月的時候呢也正式的確立了這個AI的法案會由全體閣僚就是各部部長來作為AI的統管機關來制定相關的研發跟應用計畫\n\n5\n00:01:25,902 --> 00:01:37,130\n他們是說他們的科學技術政策擔當大臣陳內實表示我們將建構既能夠促進創新又能應對風險的全球示範性法律\n\n6\n00:01:38,545 --> 00:01:57,975\n與全國之力讓日本成為AI全球最適合AI開發和運用的國家那他們這個法呢其實也在今年的5月28號由參議院審議通過了成為他們首部人工智慧的法律框架那我想要其實從上個禮拜大家一直不停的在討論一件事情就是說到底AI基本法我們應該目標定定是什麼\n\n7\n00:01:59,335 --> 00:02:26,228\n因為其實我想過去在國科會啊因為它主要是在科學研究它的一些風險它一定是會調的比較低嘛因為它相對的是要讓科學可以持續的去推展可是當我們今天回到了產業的運用上面我們已經看到了非常多的問題所以我自己在想就是說當我們現在數位部要來做這個法的時候我們自己的目標定定的到底是什麼可不可以請部長大概簡單講一下委員妳講得很好就是事實上這個\n\n8\n00:02:27,188 --> 00:02:42,903\nAI的發展就剛剛講說一方面重視創新那一方面重視管理那美國的做法不一樣像歐盟就比較重視管理美國就比較開放創新日本也比較重視創新所以就是說基本上是用法來鼓勵創新包括投資等等等\n\n9\n00:02:43,443 --> 00:03:12,351\n那我們臺灣應該是介於這兩個的中間所以我們同時注重一些管理管理包括就跟你講風險管理跟資料治理但是我們又不希望因為太強像歐盟這麼強勢的管理影響到AI的產業的發展所以這個就為什麼拿捏在為什麼這個有這麼多討論有這麼多版本那我們為什麼在行政院包括在我們部裡面有這麼多討論都是因為這個拿捏要很精準那就比如說因為AI技術又在進步進步很快\n\n10\n00:03:12,771 --> 00:03:37,204\n所以就是說我們過去認為的管理方式可能再過一年或再過半年又不對所以就是說這個東西變成就是一個一個是一個挑戰了解我懂那因為其實基本上在歐盟我們算以前歐盟是定的非常想管控度是高的可是我們今年也可以看到波蘭跟英國在這個月都踩煞車嘛因為他們也發現他們會擔心在全世界競爭上面他們會輸\n\n11\n00:03:40,846 --> 00:03:59,049\n所以我想這個東西可能希望在七月的時候七月底的時候預計會提出版本的時候我們是不是也可以怎麼樣去根據現在的一個發展的趨勢去拿捏出因為在立法目的上面就要續名因為我們現在立法目的裡面其實並沒有去講到促進經濟相關的產業發展我們比較是在管控面的角度原來是這樣沒錯\n\n12\n00:04:00,190 --> 00:04:14,063\n對所以我想這個就是因為全世界其實不管是過去大家有管控的都已經開始慢慢要轉個彎所以我們在立法目的上面應該也要去做一些修正才對那這個部分就是做一個提醒跟建議那再來下一個部分就是說呃\n\n13\n00:04:19,008 --> 00:04:47,363\n我們其實在五月份的時候呢我跟這個訴務發佈其實有開了一個會就是有關於基本法的一個修法會議當時我就有針對就是評測中心當時是有講說我們說產業開發啊其實都會到評測中心去做一個檢測這樣子那當時是也有跟我說會這個依據這個涵蓋公平性啦準確性啊可靠性啊隱私及資安等等文面下讓讓我們的這個產品可以去保護到這個兒童然後防止犯罪等等的\n\n14\n00:04:48,363 --> 00:05:11,690\n但是我看了一下我們的題目啊其實我們的題目我請教了一些相關的專家學者他們覺得這樣子的題目其實是不夠精準而且非常的簡略啦其實要真的要避免我們讓兒童所攝錄的像聊天機器人讓孩子去自殺了這樣子的狀況其實似乎不足那當時呢我在這邊其實也有學者提供我一些建議那這個之後我也會再提供給\n\n15\n00:05:12,550 --> 00:05:31,821\n給我們的評測中心那基本上他們是說如果今天這個東西AI的產品開發用於教育職業培訓學生評估或者是監控學習者的行為或者是擁有了與未成年心理情緒互動等等情緒識別就會把這樣子的東西是視為高風險\n\n16\n00:05:35,003 --> 00:06:01,321\n那他必須在風險管理設計合規自我評估還有第三發審查的時候明確的去納入了兒童的脆弱性操控風險家長同意流程透明度與可識別性也就是說像在操作系的部分他們要確認是否有難以察覺的誘導式設計例如可能是遊戲化獎勵無限滑動讓兒童無意識的進行操作或者是過度的使用\n\n17\n00:06:02,081 --> 00:06:26,914\n以及這個裡面是否明確的標示為AI兒童可以識別我今天是在跟機器人互動不是真人互動才能夠讓他提出一個更容易辨識的提示以及是否依據GDPR取得家長的同意限制敏感資料的收集並且提供刪除及存取權限給兒童及家長\n\n18\n00:06:27,774 --> 00:06:44,070\n那這個東西呢我會認為這是這才是真正做到了所謂的兒少的保護那這個部分呢我們是不是可以其實之前評測中心是說可以再跟兒少團體來做一些討論那這部分是不是也可以邀請部長承諾這件事情應該可以我們再請那個\n\n19\n00:06:45,071 --> 00:07:04,727\n在我們修法之前我們是不是就可以做到這件事情因為我希望當我們的這個基本法出去之後這個沒有問題喔那個委員這邊或者任何那個學者專家有那個一套題目希望我們對各種那個AI進行監測的話你可以把那個題目交給我們的AI評測中心那我們AI評測中心就會去做所謂的benchmark\n\n20\n00:07:05,347 --> 00:07:21,780\n這邊我們可以提供團體跟學者的名單但我希望除了在評測之外在我們基本法的時候是不是可以把這些概念也放進去我想再跟委員看怎麼安排我們再去增進我們這方面的評測的項目好那我們一起努力謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2403\t3828\t好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長請部長\n12145\t37437\t好 那我想就是說今天我想要主要來討論也還是像是AI基本法跟以及我們AI基本法未來要制定的一些我們可能要考量的面向來跟部長做一些討論那就是說在2024年的時候呢7月5號日本發布日本的一個資訊通訊白皮書呢其中統計了多個國家的人在使用生成式AI的一個使用率那就發現說日本敬佩莫作啦說他們是最後一名那英國大概也是只有39.8%\n40329\t54501\t那我們的MIC的資測會呢其實也做了在去年也做一個深層式AI的大調查那36%的網友其實都使用過這個深層式AI的工具那其中我們的年輕族群18到25歲的使用的比例呢又是更高\n55222\t79178\t那這也因此呢在這個影響到了未來現在這個日本在做這個AI的人工智慧白皮書的第二版的時候他們宣示日本要成為世界上使用AI最friendly的國家作為他們當前的一個策略目標那其實他們也在今年的二月的時候呢也正式的確立了這個AI的法案會由全體閣僚就是各部部長來作為AI的統管機關來制定相關的研發跟應用計畫\n85902\t97130\t他們是說他們的科學技術政策擔當大臣陳內實表示我們將建構既能夠促進創新又能應對風險的全球示範性法律\n98545\t117975\t與全國之力讓日本成為AI全球最適合AI開發和運用的國家那他們這個法呢其實也在今年的5月28號由參議院審議通過了成為他們首部人工智慧的法律框架那我想要其實從上個禮拜大家一直不停的在討論一件事情就是說到底AI基本法我們應該目標定定是什麼\n119335\t146228\t因為其實我想過去在國科會啊因為它主要是在科學研究它的一些風險它一定是會調的比較低嘛因為它相對的是要讓科學可以持續的去推展可是當我們今天回到了產業的運用上面我們已經看到了非常多的問題所以我自己在想就是說當我們現在數位部要來做這個法的時候我們自己的目標定定的到底是什麼可不可以請部長大概簡單講一下委員妳講得很好就是事實上這個\n147188\t162903\tAI的發展就剛剛講說一方面重視創新那一方面重視管理那美國的做法不一樣像歐盟就比較重視管理美國就比較開放創新日本也比較重視創新所以就是說基本上是用法來鼓勵創新包括投資等等等\n163443\t192351\t那我們臺灣應該是介於這兩個的中間所以我們同時注重一些管理管理包括就跟你講風險管理跟資料治理但是我們又不希望因為太強像歐盟這麼強勢的管理影響到AI的產業的發展所以這個就為什麼拿捏在為什麼這個有這麼多討論有這麼多版本那我們為什麼在行政院包括在我們部裡面有這麼多討論都是因為這個拿捏要很精準那就比如說因為AI技術又在進步進步很快\n192771\t217204\t所以就是說我們過去認為的管理方式可能再過一年或再過半年又不對所以就是說這個東西變成就是一個一個是一個挑戰了解我懂那因為其實基本上在歐盟我們算以前歐盟是定的非常想管控度是高的可是我們今年也可以看到波蘭跟英國在這個月都踩煞車嘛因為他們也發現他們會擔心在全世界競爭上面他們會輸\n220846\t239049\t所以我想這個東西可能希望在七月的時候七月底的時候預計會提出版本的時候我們是不是也可以怎麼樣去根據現在的一個發展的趨勢去拿捏出因為在立法目的上面就要續名因為我們現在立法目的裡面其實並沒有去講到促進經濟相關的產業發展我們比較是在管控面的角度原來是這樣沒錯\n240190\t254063\t對所以我想這個就是因為全世界其實不管是過去大家有管控的都已經開始慢慢要轉個彎所以我們在立法目的上面應該也要去做一些修正才對那這個部分就是做一個提醒跟建議那再來下一個部分就是說呃\n259008\t287363\t我們其實在五月份的時候呢我跟這個訴務發佈其實有開了一個會就是有關於基本法的一個修法會議當時我就有針對就是評測中心當時是有講說我們說產業開發啊其實都會到評測中心去做一個檢測這樣子那當時是也有跟我說會這個依據這個涵蓋公平性啦準確性啊可靠性啊隱私及資安等等文面下讓讓我們的這個產品可以去保護到這個兒童然後防止犯罪等等的\n288363\t311690\t但是我看了一下我們的題目啊其實我們的題目我請教了一些相關的專家學者他們覺得這樣子的題目其實是不夠精準而且非常的簡略啦其實要真的要避免我們讓兒童所攝錄的像聊天機器人讓孩子去自殺了這樣子的狀況其實似乎不足那當時呢我在這邊其實也有學者提供我一些建議那這個之後我也會再提供給\n312550\t331821\t給我們的評測中心那基本上他們是說如果今天這個東西AI的產品開發用於教育職業培訓學生評估或者是監控學習者的行為或者是擁有了與未成年心理情緒互動等等情緒識別就會把這樣子的東西是視為高風險\n335003\t361321\t那他必須在風險管理設計合規自我評估還有第三發審查的時候明確的去納入了兒童的脆弱性操控風險家長同意流程透明度與可識別性也就是說像在操作系的部分他們要確認是否有難以察覺的誘導式設計例如可能是遊戲化獎勵無限滑動讓兒童無意識的進行操作或者是過度的使用\n362081\t386914\t以及這個裡面是否明確的標示為AI兒童可以識別我今天是在跟機器人互動不是真人互動才能夠讓他提出一個更容易辨識的提示以及是否依據GDPR取得家長的同意限制敏感資料的收集並且提供刪除及存取權限給兒童及家長\n387774\t404070\t那這個東西呢我會認為這是這才是真正做到了所謂的兒少的保護那這個部分呢我們是不是可以其實之前評測中心是說可以再跟兒少團體來做一些討論那這部分是不是也可以邀請部長承諾這件事情應該可以我們再請那個\n405071\t424727\t在我們修法之前我們是不是就可以做到這件事情因為我希望當我們的這個基本法出去之後這個沒有問題喔那個委員這邊或者任何那個學者專家有那個一套題目希望我們對各種那個AI進行監測的話你可以把那個題目交給我們的AI評測中心那我們AI評測中心就會去做所謂的benchmark\n425347\t441780\t這邊我們可以提供團體跟學者的名單但我希望除了在評測之外在我們基本法的時候是不是可以把這些概念也放進去我想再跟委員看怎麼安排我們再去增進我們這方面的評測的項目好那我們一起努力 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長請部長\n好 那我想就是說今天我想要主要來討論也還是像是AI基本法跟以及我們AI基本法未來要制定的一些我們可能要考量的面向來跟部長做一些討論那就是說在2024年的時候呢7月5號日本發布日本的一個資訊通訊白皮書呢其中統計了多個國家的人在使用生成式AI的一個使用率那就發現說日本敬佩莫作啦說他們是最後一名那英國大概也是只有39.8%\n那我們的MIC的資測會呢其實也做了在去年也做一個深層式AI的大調查那36%的網友其實都使用過這個深層式AI的工具那其中我們的年輕族群18到25歲的使用的比例呢又是更高\n那這也因此呢在這個影響到了未來現在這個日本在做這個AI的人工智慧白皮書的第二版的時候他們宣示日本要成為世界上使用AI最friendly的國家作為他們當前的一個策略目標那其實他們也在今年的二月的時候呢也正式的確立了這個AI的法案會由全體閣僚就是各部部長來作為AI的統管機關來制定相關的研發跟應用計畫\n他們是說他們的科學技術政策擔當大臣陳內實表示我們將建構既能夠促進創新又能應對風險的全球示範性法律\n與全國之力讓日本成為AI全球最適合AI開發和運用的國家那他們這個法呢其實也在今年的5月28號由參議院審議通過了成為他們首部人工智慧的法律框架那我想要其實從上個禮拜大家一直不停的在討論一件事情就是說到底AI基本法我們應該目標定定是什麼\n因為其實我想過去在國科會啊因為它主要是在科學研究它的一些風險它一定是會調的比較低嘛因為它相對的是要讓科學可以持續的去推展可是當我們今天回到了產業的運用上面我們已經看到了非常多的問題所以我自己在想就是說當我們現在數位部要來做這個法的時候我們自己的目標定定的到底是什麼可不可以請部長大概簡單講一下委員妳講得很好就是事實上這個\nAI的發展就剛剛講說一方面重視創新那一方面重視管理那美國的做法不一樣像歐盟就比較重視管理美國就比較開放創新日本也比較重視創新所以就是說基本上是用法來鼓勵創新包括投資等等等\n那我們臺灣應該是介於這兩個的中間所以我們同時注重一些管理管理包括就跟你講風險管理跟資料治理但是我們又不希望因為太強像歐盟這麼強勢的管理影響到AI的產業的發展所以這個就為什麼拿捏在為什麼這個有這麼多討論有這麼多版本那我們為什麼在行政院包括在我們部裡面有這麼多討論都是因為這個拿捏要很精準那就比如說因為AI技術又在進步進步很快\n所以就是說我們過去認為的管理方式可能再過一年或再過半年又不對所以就是說這個東西變成就是一個一個是一個挑戰了解我懂那因為其實基本上在歐盟我們算以前歐盟是定的非常想管控度是高的可是我們今年也可以看到波蘭跟英國在這個月都踩煞車嘛因為他們也發現他們會擔心在全世界競爭上面他們會輸\n所以我想這個東西可能希望在七月的時候七月底的時候預計會提出版本的時候我們是不是也可以怎麼樣去根據現在的一個發展的趨勢去拿捏出因為在立法目的上面就要續名因為我們現在立法目的裡面其實並沒有去講到促進經濟相關的產業發展我們比較是在管控面的角度原來是這樣沒錯\n對所以我想這個就是因為全世界其實不管是過去大家有管控的都已經開始慢慢要轉個彎所以我們在立法目的上面應該也要去做一些修正才對那這個部分就是做一個提醒跟建議那再來下一個部分就是說呃\n我們其實在五月份的時候呢我跟這個訴務發佈其實有開了一個會就是有關於基本法的一個修法會議當時我就有針對就是評測中心當時是有講說我們說產業開發啊其實都會到評測中心去做一個檢測這樣子那當時是也有跟我說會這個依據這個涵蓋公平性啦準確性啊可靠性啊隱私及資安等等文面下讓讓我們的這個產品可以去保護到這個兒童然後防止犯罪等等的\n但是我看了一下我們的題目啊其實我們的題目我請教了一些相關的專家學者他們覺得這樣子的題目其實是不夠精準而且非常的簡略啦其實要真的要避免我們讓兒童所攝錄的像聊天機器人讓孩子去自殺了這樣子的狀況其實似乎不足那當時呢我在這邊其實也有學者提供我一些建議那這個之後我也會再提供給\n給我們的評測中心那基本上他們是說如果今天這個東西AI的產品開發用於教育職業培訓學生評估或者是監控學習者的行為或者是擁有了與未成年心理情緒互動等等情緒識別就會把這樣子的東西是視為高風險\n那他必須在風險管理設計合規自我評估還有第三發審查的時候明確的去納入了兒童的脆弱性操控風險家長同意流程透明度與可識別性也就是說像在操作系的部分他們要確認是否有難以察覺的誘導式設計例如可能是遊戲化獎勵無限滑動讓兒童無意識的進行操作或者是過度的使用\n以及這個裡面是否明確的標示為AI兒童可以識別我今天是在跟機器人互動不是真人互動才能夠讓他提出一個更容易辨識的提示以及是否依據GDPR取得家長的同意限制敏感資料的收集並且提供刪除及存取權限給兒童及家長\n那這個東西呢我會認為這是這才是真正做到了所謂的兒少的保護那這個部分呢我們是不是可以其實之前評測中心是說可以再跟兒少團體來做一些討論那這部分是不是也可以邀請部長承諾這件事情應該可以我們再請那個\n在我們修法之前我們是不是就可以做到這件事情因為我希望當我們的這個基本法出去之後這個沒有問題喔那個委員這邊或者任何那個學者專家有那個一套題目希望我們對各種那個AI進行監測的話你可以把那個題目交給我們的AI評測中心那我們AI評測中心就會去做所謂的benchmark\n這邊我們可以提供團體跟學者的名單但我希望除了在評測之外在我們基本法的時候是不是可以把這些概念也放進去我想再跟委員看怎麼安排我們再去增進我們這方面的評測的項目好那我們一起努力 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.403 --> 00:03.828\n好謝謝主席我們有請部長請部長\n\n00:12.145 --> 00:37.437\n好那我想就是說今天我想要主要來討論也還是像是AI基本法跟以及我們AI基本法未來要制定的一些我們可能要考量的面向來跟部長做一些討論那就是說在2024年的時候呢7月5號日本發布日本的一個資訊通訊白皮書呢其中統計了多個國家的人在使用生成式AI的一個使用率那就發現說日本敬佩莫作啦說他們是最後一名那英國大概也是只有39.8%\n\n00:40.329 --> 00:54.501\n那我們的MIC的資測會呢其實也做了在去年也做一個深層式AI的大調查那36%的網友其實都使用過這個深層式AI的工具那其中我們的年輕族群18到25歲的使用的比例呢又是更高\n\n00:55.222 --> 01:19.178\n那這也因此呢在這個影響到了未來現在這個日本在做這個AI的人工智慧白皮書的第二版的時候他們宣示日本要成為世界上使用AI最friendly的國家作為他們當前的一個策略目標那其實他們也在今年的二月的時候呢也正式的確立了這個AI的法案會由全體閣僚就是各部部長來作為AI的統管機關來制定相關的研發跟應用計畫\n\n01:25.902 --> 01:37.130\n他們是說他們的科學技術政策擔當大臣陳內實表示我們將建構既能夠促進創新又能應對風險的全球示範性法律\n\n01:38.545 --> 01:57.975\n與全國之力讓日本成為AI全球最適合AI開發和運用的國家那他們這個法呢其實也在今年的5月28號由參議院審議通過了成為他們首部人工智慧的法律框架那我想要其實從上個禮拜大家一直不停的在討論一件事情就是說到底AI基本法我們應該目標定定是什麼\n\n01:59.335 --> 02:26.228\n因為其實我想過去在國科會啊因為它主要是在科學研究它的一些風險它一定是會調的比較低嘛因為它相對的是要讓科學可以持續的去推展可是當我們今天回到了產業的運用上面我們已經看到了非常多的問題所以我自己在想就是說當我們現在數位部要來做這個法的時候我們自己的目標定定的到底是什麼可不可以請部長大概簡單講一下委員妳講得很好就是事實上這個\n\n02:27.188 --> 02:42.903\nAI的發展就剛剛講說一方面重視創新那一方面重視管理那美國的做法不一樣像歐盟就比較重視管理美國就比較開放創新日本也比較重視創新所以就是說基本上是用法來鼓勵創新包括投資等等等\n\n02:43.443 --> 03:12.351\n那我們臺灣應該是介於這兩個的中間所以我們同時注重一些管理管理包括就跟你講風險管理跟資料治理但是我們又不希望因為太強像歐盟這麼強勢的管理影響到AI的產業的發展所以這個就為什麼拿捏在為什麼這個有這麼多討論有這麼多版本那我們為什麼在行政院包括在我們部裡面有這麼多討論都是因為這個拿捏要很精準那就比如說因為AI技術又在進步進步很快\n\n03:12.771 --> 03:37.204\n所以就是說我們過去認為的管理方式可能再過一年或再過半年又不對所以就是說這個東西變成就是一個一個是一個挑戰了解我懂那因為其實基本上在歐盟我們算以前歐盟是定的非常想管控度是高的可是我們今年也可以看到波蘭跟英國在這個月都踩煞車嘛因為他們也發現他們會擔心在全世界競爭上面他們會輸\n\n03:40.846 --> 03:59.049\n所以我想這個東西可能希望在七月的時候七月底的時候預計會提出版本的時候我們是不是也可以怎麼樣去根據現在的一個發展的趨勢去拿捏出因為在立法目的上面就要續名因為我們現在立法目的裡面其實並沒有去講到促進經濟相關的產業發展我們比較是在管控面的角度原來是這樣沒錯\n\n04:00.190 --> 04:14.063\n對所以我想這個就是因為全世界其實不管是過去大家有管控的都已經開始慢慢要轉個彎所以我們在立法目的上面應該也要去做一些修正才對那這個部分就是做一個提醒跟建議那再來下一個部分就是說呃\n\n04:19.008 --> 04:47.363\n我們其實在五月份的時候呢我跟這個訴務發佈其實有開了一個會就是有關於基本法的一個修法會議當時我就有針對就是評測中心當時是有講說我們說產業開發啊其實都會到評測中心去做一個檢測這樣子那當時是也有跟我說會這個依據這個涵蓋公平性啦準確性啊可靠性啊隱私及資安等等文面下讓讓我們的這個產品可以去保護到這個兒童然後防止犯罪等等的\n\n04:48.363 --> 05:11.690\n但是我看了一下我們的題目啊其實我們的題目我請教了一些相關的專家學者他們覺得這樣子的題目其實是不夠精準而且非常的簡略啦其實要真的要避免我們讓兒童所攝錄的像聊天機器人讓孩子去自殺了這樣子的狀況其實似乎不足那當時呢我在這邊其實也有學者提供我一些建議那這個之後我也會再提供給\n\n05:12.550 --> 05:31.821\n給我們的評測中心那基本上他們是說如果今天這個東西AI的產品開發用於教育職業培訓學生評估或者是監控學習者的行為或者是擁有了與未成年心理情緒互動等等情緒識別就會把這樣子的東西是視為高風險\n\n05:35.003 --> 06:01.321\n那他必須在風險管理設計合規自我評估還有第三發審查的時候明確的去納入了兒童的脆弱性操控風險家長同意流程透明度與可識別性也就是說像在操作系的部分他們要確認是否有難以察覺的誘導式設計例如可能是遊戲化獎勵無限滑動讓兒童無意識的進行操作或者是過度的使用\n\n06:02.081 --> 06:26.914\n以及這個裡面是否明確的標示為AI兒童可以識別我今天是在跟機器人互動不是真人互動才能夠讓他提出一個更容易辨識的提示以及是否依據GDPR取得家長的同意限制敏感資料的收集並且提供刪除及存取權限給兒童及家長\n\n06:27.774 --> 06:44.070\n那這個東西呢我會認為這是這才是真正做到了所謂的兒少的保護那這個部分呢我們是不是可以其實之前評測中心是說可以再跟兒少團體來做一些討論那這部分是不是也可以邀請部長承諾這件事情應該可以我們再請那個\n\n06:45.071 --> 07:04.727\n在我們修法之前我們是不是就可以做到這件事情因為我希望當我們的這個基本法出去之後這個沒有問題喔那個委員這邊或者任何那個學者專家有那個一套題目希望我們對各種那個AI進行監測的話你可以把那個題目交給我們的AI評測中心那我們AI評測中心就會去做所謂的benchmark\n\n07:05.347 --> 07:21.780\n這邊我們可以提供團體跟學者的名單但我希望除了在評測之外在我們基本法的時候是不是可以把這些概念也放進去我想再跟委員看怎麼安排我們再去增進我們這方面的評測的項目好那我們一起努力謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.403,"end":3.828,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長請部長"},{"start":12.145,"end":37.437,"text":"好 那我想就是說今天我想要主要來討論也還是像是AI基本法跟以及我們AI基本法未來要制定的一些我們可能要考量的面向來跟部長做一些討論那就是說在2024年的時候呢7月5號日本發布日本的一個資訊通訊白皮書呢其中統計了多個國家的人在使用生成式AI的一個使用率那就發現說日本敬佩莫作啦說他們是最後一名那英國大概也是只有39.8%"},{"start":40.329,"end":54.501,"text":"那我們的MIC的資測會呢其實也做了在去年也做一個深層式AI的大調查那36%的網友其實都使用過這個深層式AI的工具那其中我們的年輕族群18到25歲的使用的比例呢又是更高"},{"start":55.222,"end":79.178,"text":"那這也因此呢在這個影響到了未來現在這個日本在做這個AI的人工智慧白皮書的第二版的時候他們宣示日本要成為世界上使用AI最friendly的國家作為他們當前的一個策略目標那其實他們也在今年的二月的時候呢也正式的確立了這個AI的法案會由全體閣僚就是各部部長來作為AI的統管機關來制定相關的研發跟應用計畫"},{"start":85.902,"end":97.13,"text":"他們是說他們的科學技術政策擔當大臣陳內實表示我們將建構既能夠促進創新又能應對風險的全球示範性法律"},{"start":98.545,"end":117.975,"text":"與全國之力讓日本成為AI全球最適合AI開發和運用的國家那他們這個法呢其實也在今年的5月28號由參議院審議通過了成為他們首部人工智慧的法律框架那我想要其實從上個禮拜大家一直不停的在討論一件事情就是說到底AI基本法我們應該目標定定是什麼"},{"start":119.335,"end":146.228,"text":"因為其實我想過去在國科會啊因為它主要是在科學研究它的一些風險它一定是會調的比較低嘛因為它相對的是要讓科學可以持續的去推展可是當我們今天回到了產業的運用上面我們已經看到了非常多的問題所以我自己在想就是說當我們現在數位部要來做這個法的時候我們自己的目標定定的到底是什麼可不可以請部長大概簡單講一下委員妳講得很好就是事實上這個"},{"start":147.188,"end":162.903,"text":"AI的發展就剛剛講說一方面重視創新那一方面重視管理那美國的做法不一樣像歐盟就比較重視管理美國就比較開放創新日本也比較重視創新所以就是說基本上是用法來鼓勵創新包括投資等等等"},{"start":163.443,"end":192.351,"text":"那我們臺灣應該是介於這兩個的中間所以我們同時注重一些管理管理包括就跟你講風險管理跟資料治理但是我們又不希望因為太強像歐盟這麼強勢的管理影響到AI的產業的發展所以這個就為什麼拿捏在為什麼這個有這麼多討論有這麼多版本那我們為什麼在行政院包括在我們部裡面有這麼多討論都是因為這個拿捏要很精準那就比如說因為AI技術又在進步進步很快"},{"start":192.771,"end":217.204,"text":"所以就是說我們過去認為的管理方式可能再過一年或再過半年又不對所以就是說這個東西變成就是一個一個是一個挑戰了解我懂那因為其實基本上在歐盟我們算以前歐盟是定的非常想管控度是高的可是我們今年也可以看到波蘭跟英國在這個月都踩煞車嘛因為他們也發現他們會擔心在全世界競爭上面他們會輸"},{"start":220.846,"end":239.049,"text":"所以我想這個東西可能希望在七月的時候七月底的時候預計會提出版本的時候我們是不是也可以怎麼樣去根據現在的一個發展的趨勢去拿捏出因為在立法目的上面就要續名因為我們現在立法目的裡面其實並沒有去講到促進經濟相關的產業發展我們比較是在管控面的角度原來是這樣沒錯"},{"start":240.19,"end":254.063,"text":"對所以我想這個就是因為全世界其實不管是過去大家有管控的都已經開始慢慢要轉個彎所以我們在立法目的上面應該也要去做一些修正才對那這個部分就是做一個提醒跟建議那再來下一個部分就是說呃"},{"start":259.008,"end":287.363,"text":"我們其實在五月份的時候呢我跟這個訴務發佈其實有開了一個會就是有關於基本法的一個修法會議當時我就有針對就是評測中心當時是有講說我們說產業開發啊其實都會到評測中心去做一個檢測這樣子那當時是也有跟我說會這個依據這個涵蓋公平性啦準確性啊可靠性啊隱私及資安等等文面下讓讓我們的這個產品可以去保護到這個兒童然後防止犯罪等等的"},{"start":288.363,"end":311.69,"text":"但是我看了一下我們的題目啊其實我們的題目我請教了一些相關的專家學者他們覺得這樣子的題目其實是不夠精準而且非常的簡略啦其實要真的要避免我們讓兒童所攝錄的像聊天機器人讓孩子去自殺了這樣子的狀況其實似乎不足那當時呢我在這邊其實也有學者提供我一些建議那這個之後我也會再提供給"},{"start":312.55,"end":331.821,"text":"給我們的評測中心那基本上他們是說如果今天這個東西AI的產品開發用於教育職業培訓學生評估或者是監控學習者的行為或者是擁有了與未成年心理情緒互動等等情緒識別就會把這樣子的東西是視為高風險"},{"start":335.003,"end":361.321,"text":"那他必須在風險管理設計合規自我評估還有第三發審查的時候明確的去納入了兒童的脆弱性操控風險家長同意流程透明度與可識別性也就是說像在操作系的部分他們要確認是否有難以察覺的誘導式設計例如可能是遊戲化獎勵無限滑動讓兒童無意識的進行操作或者是過度的使用"},{"start":362.081,"end":386.914,"text":"以及這個裡面是否明確的標示為AI兒童可以識別我今天是在跟機器人互動不是真人互動才能夠讓他提出一個更容易辨識的提示以及是否依據GDPR取得家長的同意限制敏感資料的收集並且提供刪除及存取權限給兒童及家長"},{"start":387.774,"end":404.07,"text":"那這個東西呢我會認為這是這才是真正做到了所謂的兒少的保護那這個部分呢我們是不是可以其實之前評測中心是說可以再跟兒少團體來做一些討論那這部分是不是也可以邀請部長承諾這件事情應該可以我們再請那個"},{"start":405.071,"end":424.727,"text":"在我們修法之前我們是不是就可以做到這件事情因為我希望當我們的這個基本法出去之後這個沒有問題喔那個委員這邊或者任何那個學者專家有那個一套題目希望我們對各種那個AI進行監測的話你可以把那個題目交給我們的AI評測中心那我們AI評測中心就會去做所謂的benchmark"},{"start":425.347,"end":441.78,"text":"這邊我們可以提供團體跟學者的名單但我希望除了在評測之外在我們基本法的時候是不是可以把這些概念也放進去我想再跟委員看怎麼安排我們再去增進我們這方面的評測的項目好那我們一起努力 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":663,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時25分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：今天我主要想要來討論的還是AI基本法以及AI基本法未來制定時要考量的面向，就這些部分來跟部長做一些討論。在2024年7月5號，日本的資訊通信白皮書統計了多個國家的人使用生成式AI的使用率，就發現日本敬陪末座，他們是最後一名，英國大概也是只有39.8%；我們的MIC、資策會其實在去年也做了一個生成式AI的大調查，36%的網友其實都使用過生成式AI的工具，其中年輕族群18到25歲的使用比例又更高。也因此影響到現在日本在做AI人工智慧白皮書第二版時，他們宣示日本要成為世界上使用AI最friendly的國家，作為他們當前的一個策略目標，其實他們在今年2月的時候也正式確立了這個AI的法案，會由全體閣僚也就是各部部長作為AI的統管機關，來制定相關的研發跟應用計畫還有開發使用指南等等，他們的科學技術政策擔當大臣城內實表示：我們將建構既能促進創新又能應對風險的全球示範性法律，舉全國之力讓日本成為全球最適合AI開發和運用的國家。他們這個法其實也在今年的5月28號由參議院審議通過了，成為他們首部人工智慧的法律框架。其實從上個禮拜大家就一直不停在討論一件事情，就是到底我們AI基本法的目標訂定應該是什麼，因為過去在國科會，它主要是在科學研究，所以這些相關風險它一定是會調得比較低，因為它是要讓科學可以持續去推展，可是當今天回到產業的運用上面，我們已經看到非常多問題，所以我自己在想的就是，當現在數位部要來做這個法的時候，我們自己的目標訂定到底是什麼，可不可以請部長大概簡單講一下？"],["黃部長彥男：委員，您講得很好，事實上AI的發展就如同剛才講的，一方面重視創新，一方面重視管理，當然每一國的作法不一樣，像歐盟就比較重視管理……"],["張委員雅琳：對，美國就比較開放、創新。"],["黃部長彥男：美國就重視創新，日本也比較重視創新，所以基本上是用法來鼓勵創新，包括投資等等，我們臺灣應該是介於這兩個的中間，所以我們同時注重一些管理，管理包括風險管理跟資料治理，但是我們又不希望因為太強勢，像歐盟這麼強勢的管理，進而影響到AI產業的發展，所以這要怎麼樣來拿捏，就是為什麼會有這麼多討論、有這麼多版本的原因，而為什麼在行政院，包括在我們部裡面有這麼多討論，都是因為這個拿捏要很精準。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["黃部長彥男：比如說，因為AI技術又在進步、進步又很快，所以我們過去認為的管理方式，可能再過一年或再過半年就又不對了，所以這個東西變成是一個挑戰，對此，我們部裡面……"],["張委員雅琳：了解。基本上，以前歐盟的管控度是高的……"],["黃部長彥男：管很嚴，對。"],["張委員雅琳：可是我們今天也可以看到波蘭跟英國在這個月都踩煞車嘛……"],["黃部長彥男：對，他們就退出了。"],["張委員雅琳：因為他們會擔心在全世界的競爭上他們會輸。所以我希望這部分在7月底預計提出版本時，我們是不是也可以根據現在的發展的趨勢拿捏出……在立法目的上面就要敘明，因為現在在立法目的裡面其實並沒有去講到促進經濟相關的產業發展，而比較是在管控面的角度。"],["黃部長彥男：對，原來是這樣沒錯。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為全世界過去有管控的都已經開始要慢慢轉彎，所以我們在立法目的上面應該也要去做一些修正才對，這個部分就是做一個提醒跟建議。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["張委員雅琳：再來下一個部分，在5月份時我跟數發部其實有開了一個會，就是有關於基本法的修法會議，當時我就有提到，產業開發都會到AI評測中心去做檢測，當時是有跟我說會依據涵蓋公平性、準確性、可靠性、隱私及資安等等5個面向，讓這些產品可以保護兒童、防止犯罪等等。但是我看了一下題目，我請教了一些相關的專家學者，他們覺得這樣的題目其實是不夠精準，而且非常簡略，真的要避免讓兒童涉入，像是聊天機器人讓孩子去自殺，面對這樣的狀況似乎是不足，這邊也有學者提供我一些建議，這個我之後也會再提供給評測中心。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：他們是說如果今天這個AI的產品開發用於教育、職業培訓、學生評估或監控學習者的行為，或是擁有與未成年心理、情緒互動等等功能，如情緒識別，就會把這樣的東西視為高風險，因此必須在風險管理、設計合規、自我評估以及第三方審查的時候，明確納入兒童脆弱性評估、操控風險、家長同意流程、透明度與可識別性，也就是說，像是在操作性的部分，他們要確認是否有難以察覺的誘導式設計，例如可能是遊戲化獎勵、無限滑動，讓兒童無意識地進行操作或是過度使用，以及這裡面是否明確標示為AI，讓兒童可以識別我今天是在跟機器人互動，而不是跟真人互動，才能夠讓他提出一個更容易辨識的提示；以及是否依據GDPR取得家長的同意，限制敏感資料的蒐集，並且提供刪除及存取權限給兒童及家長。我會認為這才是真正做到所謂的兒少保護，這個部分是不是可以……其實之前評測中心是說可以再跟兒少團體來做一些討論，這部分是不是也可以邀請部長承諾這件事情？"],["黃部長彥男：應該可以，我們再請……"],["張委員雅琳：在修法之前是不是就可以做到這件事情？因為我希望當我們這個基本法出去之後……"],["林次長宜敬：這個沒有問題，委員這邊或是任何學者專家有一套題目，希望我們對於各種AI進行監測的話，你可以把那個題目交給我們的AI評測中心，AI評測中心就會去做所謂的benchmark……"],["張委員雅琳：這邊我們可以提供團體跟學者名單，但我希望除了評測之外，在基本法裡面是不是可以把這些概念也放進去？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我想我再跟委員看怎麼安排，我們再去增進這方面的評測項目。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在請翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":442,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-16","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林國成","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","葛如鈞","劉書彬","黃健豪","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","魯明哲","廖先翔","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男就「推動 AI 之產業發展政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146001_00016"}}}