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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,675 --> 00:00:11,197\n謝謝主席本席請署長吳署長有請吳委員好\n\n2\n00:00:23,306 --> 00:00:47,277\n署長這個我們就持續啦剛剛一直在討論這個點焦還有我們這個驗污的那這個點焦的部分我剛剛看您的回答還有看我們這次今天提的報告內政部提的報告這個問題應該幾十年了吧可是到現在您都還沒有具體的然後現在這個問題還一直出現\n\n3\n00:00:49,642 --> 00:01:03,862\n本席也很感慨,我21年前擔任議員在議員兩任的任內,剛好大家知道竹北從第一棟大樓蓋到現在5000棟,大概有5000棟\n\n4\n00:01:06,411 --> 00:01:26,721\n那當初的第一棟竹北市現在大家知道竹北市的房價跟台北市有拼當時的第一棟就是跟住戶就跟建商住戶跟建商就是這種公設的爭議到現在20幾年還在訴訟那我那時候當議員的時候我還碰到一個情況\n\n5\n00:01:28,220 --> 00:01:56,616\n某一個社區出問題他的管委會主委找我然後我們就共同去了解結果原來這位主委他才剛買現在出問題這一棟他之前出問題的就我剛說的第一棟竹北的第一棟然後這兩個建案都同一個建商所以我不知道今天有沒有人提這個有關建商黑名單這個有沒有什麼機制\n\n6\n00:01:59,574 --> 00:02:18,763\n你看同一個人他在這一戶發現出問題了他可能受不了他乾脆沒有多少民眾像他可以馬上再買第二戶他就再去買結果第二戶也出問題後來我才發現同一個建案他沒有注意到他是看喜歡他就買\n\n7\n00:02:21,637 --> 00:02:45,015\n現在到現在到現在20幾年後了還是這樣所以我們今天我很感謝朝偉拍這個專案這真的是在台灣只要是這種大樓新建然後這個非常蓬勃的這個區塊這問題很大所以我想您先回答一下這建商黑名單你們有什麼\n\n8\n00:02:46,445 --> 00:02:54,316\n有什麼樣的機制嗎我不是要對建商怎麼樣而是你今天黑名單你要想辦法跟我們報告因為\n\n9\n00:02:58,106 --> 00:03:20,942\n因為我想這個不動產業這一塊那當然他現在很多所謂的黑名單他並不在於對他關鍵是在這一類的話他所謂的保留戶我們之前也都有沒有沒有不一定叫保留戶啊就是建的不好所以一堆問題啊我知道他過去會因為有保留戶的關係掌控了這個管委會\n\n10\n00:03:21,983 --> 00:03:44,252\n那他也強制做了點交那在點交完以後這一公社陸陸續續出問題所以這一類的話我們現在比較難是因為因為他不是真實的在管委會管理的主導者背後他是主導者但實務上他不是主導者我指的是表示他的建案就是建的\n\n11\n00:03:44,932 --> 00:03:59,197\n很有問題啊那個爭議特多還有公社常常出很多的問題或者是才交屋一兩年什麼地磚磁磚然後各種問題或是公社沒有照當初的設計圖的這我們碰太多了\n\n12\n00:04:01,844 --> 00:04:29,373\n所以這為什麼在過程中要有所謂的典交確認那也有所謂的公積金跟保護那等一下我時間已經過很久這是後面我要跟你談我現在說的是就是這樣的建商就很多啊你們要不要弄一些機制比如說他的爭議案怎麼樣怎麼樣的時候那應該要對相關的他應該怎麼樣或者是怎麼樣讓民眾防範民眾那真的很多民眾尤其\n\n13\n00:04:30,633 --> 00:04:59,148\n現在全台灣啦我相信接下來的中南部很多新開發區有沒有南科或者是像我知道台南或台中現在建台中一直有啦像這種新開發區很多也是什麼外地的年輕人到那邊工作然後他對那邊也不熟他就去看房子但是呢他常常就買到地雷鼓買到地雷鼓像這怎麼辦好啦我也不能浪費時間我看你這個給你那麼多時間也答不出來\n\n14\n00:05:00,117 --> 00:05:26,321\n你兩週內給我們一個回覆好不好好那接著這個當然這防範你答覆的時候你連這個相關點交的這個防範你一起再來就是剛剛也提到專業的燕屋的制度那我現在有沒有可能有專業的燕屋公司我們政府核發執照或相關的\n\n15\n00:05:28,149 --> 00:05:49,838\n感謝委員因為現在坊間的業務公司因為建築法規包含到史照有他應該要檢測點交的公設項目包含管線他都有一些標準但是我們實務上看到現在的專業的業務公司他檢驗的項目其實是超出這一些的我現在的問題是現在沒有坊間並沒有政府認證專業的這個\n\n16\n00:05:57,031 --> 00:06:18,070\n因為本來他在相關點驗的過程當中你就是可以委託專業的技師因為技師是政府合法執照的那專業技師他來幫你做檢驗而不是驗屋公司所以為什麼一般來講驗屋公司他會去找有專業證照的技師來成立\n\n17\n00:06:20,672 --> 00:06:21,955\n那所以那我就反問無照的厭汙市場你要繼續讓他擴大嗎你有什麼方式防堵嗎\n\n18\n00:06:28,530 --> 00:06:52,632\n我也說明一下甚至有些我們知道驗污的他搞不好就跟業者他們配合的所以我才會說其實重點是在於驗污的合位驗污的標準那我剛剛也說明了合位驗污標準證你們就要想辦法所以今天不管他是哪一類的他只要有合格的技師合格技師執照那他驗的項目\n\n19\n00:06:54,213 --> 00:07:22,518\n有法規內的你就按照法規的標準去執行那當然沒有問題那現在坊間的比較大現在驗物有沒有基本標準所以建築法規裡面有相關標準但是我跟委員報告現在的狀態是有些是驗超出這些項目的他也在驗那我們是認為說驗這些超出法規的項目當然不代表消費者不認同他消費者有些是認同的他有些項目是認同的\n\n20\n00:07:23,078 --> 00:07:45,393\n那這一些我們也怕長期是不是會亂了就在市場亂就是說某某業務公司主張了一堆然後大家消費者就要掏錢買單但這些有些是法規以外的也不一定那麼需要所以我們會再來討論你講那麼多我只能說交潮來臨你制度還在沉睡沒有沒有我再說明一下我們中央可不可以有一些積極的作為\n\n21\n00:07:46,414 --> 00:08:11,441\n所以我才說明一下就是說我們會找建言所就坊間現在在談的業務標準我說明一下就是說因為本來是在法規以外也不該歸我們國土署來做這樣的一個處理跟市場上的確有這樣的現象的話我們試著找建言所因為建言所是技術單位大家來討論看哪些項目是可以訂出一些標準\n\n22\n00:08:12,641 --> 00:08:34,387\n訂出一些標準讓他有一個依循而不是任由業務公司去開價去去訂項目那這樣的話可能會讓這市場比較正常一點我想這部分我們會也會找監事來討論那今天這兩點我請你們一定要積極來做你給我回覆的時候也給我期程好不好好不好意思最後我可不可以請部長上來一下部長有部長有請\n\n23\n00:08:40,544 --> 00:09:06,118\n部長今天有關點交還有驗屋我們希望內政部積極來進行內政部盡量來主導接著本席想就租屋補貼的部分我剛剛有聽到您說當初蘇院長就是因為我們稅收增加所以把地方的25%就拿到中央來\n\n24\n00:09:07,239 --> 00:09:33,351\n那現在稅收還是增加嘛所以也不要再把25%再加租地方但是財政收支劃分法有做大幅度的修正對財政收支劃分法所以在這邊本席也跟你這邊我也來提出我們的見解那因為你們可能跨部會行政院會找你們開會財政收支劃分法我們希望地方政府他了解地方的需求\n\n25\n00:09:33,971 --> 00:09:48,399\n所以有一些地方需要的經費讓地方政府這邊來提供所以像我們現在在地方上就看到我們中央各部會相關單位都到地方來像財神爺這樣不斷的這邊補助那邊補助\n\n26\n00:09:52,822 --> 00:10:11,238\n那其實有一些如果是屬於地方的人民團體地方的需求包含假設像教育還有一些辦活動的那其實地方政府最清楚地方的需求那一個部分你可以給地方所以不要一句話一個大帽子財政收支劃分法\n\n27\n00:10:11,778 --> 00:10:22,906\n那財政授權劃分法它中央跟地方一個權責大家劃分我也認同是但是當時在立法院裡面討論的時候並沒有把事權的檢討討論在內事權那事權檢討如果討論在內的話\n\n28\n00:10:28,510 --> 00:10:42,417\n那大概就是中央要負責的部分跟地方要負責的部分大概就可以討論清楚那在財政收支劃分法的時候包括到時候的分配比例是怎麼樣的分配法的話我們要按照新的這個財政收支劃分法的範圍來處理\n\n29\n00:10:43,858 --> 00:10:44,238\n中央針對財政收支劃分法\n\n30\n00:11:14,098 --> 00:11:32,474\n這個要給地方多的好像三千多億那你們有共識了嗎哪些錢他現在給了地方以後你中央在對地方的補助的時候你的原則你們應該也是沒有一個具體的原則出來然後想到什麼就每一項都推給地方這樣也不對吧\n\n31\n00:11:32,974 --> 00:11:54,719\n報告委員我想不是每一項都推給地方就是我剛剛所說的財政部對外的說法就是說稅收提撥納入中央統籌分配的比例是有多少跟多少但是我們在初估立法院所通過的財政收支劃分法在中央減少了經常性收入是高達3753億\n\n32\n00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:12,402\n那各部會非法定義務支出的項目需要配合刪減是百分之二十八左右非法定義務不是非法非法定義務支出項目要配合刪減是百分之二十八也就是我剛所說的就是我們在大院裡面討論財政收支劃分法的時候事權的檢討\n\n33\n00:12:19,444 --> 00:12:37,638\n並沒有在財政收支劃分法的這個草案裡面解釋的非常清楚那因為內政部的國土署主辦的這個租金補貼是最大項譬如說我們今年為止大概已經有支出153億左右現在重點是你們針對財政收支劃分法新制\n\n34\n00:12:38,559 --> 00:13:03,627\n中央也沒有共識但是你就把租屋補貼把它列入這樣也不對啊我們寫的公文裡面就是說請他們要思考放到下一年度預算的時候可能是放入自籌款或者是一定統籌分配款裡面來做思考你可以把全文給那個委員參考我就是聽到你這樣講可是你中央對整個財政收支劃分法你也沒有還沒有一個共識說我這3700多億我到底\n\n35\n00:13:06,684 --> 00:13:22,660\n是用等於哪一些可能我在地方的補助要減少你只是想到租屋補貼你就要地方沒有沒有我想我們沒有那麼的倉促來做決定我剛跟那個委員報告的部分就是這樣子我們在今年年初的時候就有提到這件事情整個行政院有共識嗎\n\n36\n00:13:24,221 --> 00:13:47,237\n不是我們在年初的時候就已經提醒各地方政府然後是今年三月的時候行政院要求我們跟地方政府就事權上面尤其是以租金補貼來講的話要跟地方政府有這樣子的一個告知所以我們還是以發文的方式那你有沒有聽懂我的問題我的問題就是你中央你行政院要你們告知但是你這個的依據是什麼應該這麼說也跟委員報告啦為什麼地方政府也會急著過來今天如果說我們在這裡\n\n37\n00:13:52,401 --> 00:14:12,041\n他們要編明年度的預算所以狀況是說如果我們又拖到了年底才決定如果有的話反而是地方政府會倉促來不及這樣反而會影響整個租屋族的這樣的一個權益我想我們都是基於保障所有租屋族的權益提早去告知地方可以的話先預備\n\n38\n00:14:13,923 --> 00:14:24,314\n這一塊還是中央全權負責啊也可以啊我想到目前並沒有得到這麼大的授權或是在這方面但是還是要告訴地方政府要有一些預先作為啦好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8675\t11197\t謝謝主席 本席請署長吳署長有請吳委員好\n23306\t47277\t署長 這個我們就持續啦剛剛一直在討論這個點焦還有我們這個驗污的那這個點焦的部分我剛剛看您的回答還有看我們這次今天提的報告內政部提的報告這個問題應該幾十年了吧可是到現在您都還沒有具體的然後現在這個問題還一直出現\n49642\t63862\t本席也很感慨,我21年前擔任議員在議員兩任的任內,剛好大家知道竹北從第一棟大樓蓋到現在5000棟,大概有5000棟\n66411\t86721\t那當初的第一棟竹北市現在大家知道竹北市的房價跟台北市有拼當時的第一棟就是跟住戶就跟建商住戶跟建商就是這種公設的爭議到現在20幾年還在訴訟那我那時候當議員的時候我還碰到一個情況\n88220\t116616\t某一個社區出問題他的管委會主委找我然後我們就共同去了解結果原來這位主委他才剛買現在出問題這一棟他之前出問題的就我剛說的第一棟竹北的第一棟然後這兩個建案都同一個建商所以我不知道今天有沒有人提這個有關建商黑名單這個有沒有什麼機制\n119574\t138763\t你看同一個人他在這一戶發現出問題了他可能受不了他乾脆沒有多少民眾像他可以馬上再買第二戶他就再去買結果第二戶也出問題後來我才發現同一個建案他沒有注意到他是看喜歡他就買\n141637\t165015\t現在到現在到現在20幾年後了還是這樣所以我們今天我很感謝朝偉拍這個專案這真的是在台灣只要是這種大樓新建然後這個非常蓬勃的這個區塊這問題很大所以我想您先回答一下這建商黑名單你們有什麼\n166445\t174316\t有什麼樣的機制嗎我不是要對建商怎麼樣而是你今天黑名單你要想辦法跟我們報告因為\n178106\t200942\t因為我想這個不動產業這一塊那當然他現在很多所謂的黑名單他並不在於對他關鍵是在這一類的話他所謂的保留戶我們之前也都有沒有沒有不一定叫保留戶啊就是建的不好所以一堆問題啊我知道他過去會因為有保留戶的關係掌控了這個管委會\n201983\t224252\t那他也強制做了點交那在點交完以後這一公社陸陸續續出問題所以這一類的話我們現在比較難是因為因為他不是真實的在管委會管理的主導者背後他是主導者但實務上他不是主導者我指的是表示他的建案就是建的\n224932\t239197\t很有問題啊那個爭議特多還有公社常常出很多的問題或者是才交屋一兩年什麼地磚磁磚然後各種問題或是公社沒有照當初的設計圖的這我們碰太多了\n241844\t269373\t所以這為什麼在過程中要有所謂的典交確認那也有所謂的公積金跟保護那等一下我時間已經過很久這是後面我要跟你談我現在說的是就是這樣的建商就很多啊你們要不要弄一些機制比如說他的爭議案怎麼樣怎麼樣的時候那應該要對相關的他應該怎麼樣或者是怎麼樣讓民眾防範民眾那真的很多民眾尤其\n270633\t299148\t現在全台灣啦我相信接下來的中南部很多新開發區有沒有南科或者是像我知道台南或台中現在建台中一直有啦像這種新開發區很多也是什麼外地的年輕人到那邊工作然後他對那邊也不熟他就去看房子但是呢他常常就買到地雷鼓買到地雷鼓像這怎麼辦好啦我也不能浪費時間我看你這個給你那麼多時間也答不出來\n300117\t326321\t你兩週內給我們一個回覆好不好好那接著這個當然這防範你答覆的時候你連這個相關點交的這個防範你一起再來就是剛剛也提到專業的燕屋的制度那我現在有沒有可能有專業的燕屋公司我們政府核發執照或相關的\n328149\t349838\t感謝委員因為現在坊間的業務公司因為建築法規包含到史照有他應該要檢測點交的公設項目包含管線他都有一些標準但是我們實務上看到現在的專業的業務公司他檢驗的項目其實是超出這一些的我現在的問題是現在沒有坊間並沒有政府認證專業的這個\n357031\t378070\t因為本來他在相關點驗的過程當中你就是可以委託專業的技師因為技師是政府合法執照的那專業技師他來幫你做檢驗而不是驗屋公司所以為什麼一般來講驗屋公司他會去找有專業證照的技師來成立\n380672\t381955\t那所以那我就反問無照的厭汙市場你要繼續讓他擴大嗎你有什麼方式防堵嗎\n388530\t412632\t我也說明一下甚至有些我們知道驗污的他搞不好就跟業者他們配合的所以我才會說其實重點是在於驗污的合位驗污的標準那我剛剛也說明了合位驗污標準證你們就要想辦法所以今天不管他是哪一類的他只要有合格的技師合格技師執照那他驗的項目\n414213\t442518\t有法規內的你就按照法規的標準去執行那當然沒有問題那現在坊間的比較大現在驗物有沒有基本標準所以建築法規裡面有相關標準但是我跟委員報告現在的狀態是有些是驗超出這些項目的他也在驗那我們是認為說驗這些超出法規的項目當然不代表消費者不認同他消費者有些是認同的他有些項目是認同的\n443078\t465393\t那這一些我們也怕長期是不是會亂了就在市場亂就是說某某業務公司主張了一堆然後大家消費者就要掏錢買單但這些有些是法規以外的也不一定那麼需要所以我們會再來討論你講那麼多我只能說交潮來臨你制度還在沉睡沒有沒有我再說明一下我們中央可不可以有一些積極的作為\n466414\t491441\t所以我才說明一下就是說我們會找建言所就坊間現在在談的業務標準我說明一下就是說因為本來是在法規以外也不該歸我們國土署來做這樣的一個處理跟市場上的確有這樣的現象的話我們試著找建言所因為建言所是技術單位大家來討論看哪些項目是可以訂出一些標準\n492641\t514387\t訂出一些標準讓他有一個依循而不是任由業務公司去開價去去訂項目那這樣的話可能會讓這市場比較正常一點我想這部分我們會也會找監事來討論那今天這兩點我請你們一定要積極來做你給我回覆的時候也給我期程好不好好不好意思最後我可不可以請部長上來一下部長有部長有請\n520544\t546118\t部長今天有關點交還有驗屋我們希望內政部積極來進行內政部盡量來主導接著本席想就租屋補貼的部分我剛剛有聽到您說當初蘇院長就是因為我們稅收增加所以把地方的25%就拿到中央來\n547239\t573351\t那現在稅收還是增加嘛所以也不要再把25%再加租地方但是財政收支劃分法有做大幅度的修正對 財政收支劃分法所以在這邊本席也跟你這邊我也來提出我們的見解那因為你們可能跨部會行政院會找你們開會財政收支劃分法我們希望地方政府他了解地方的需求\n573971\t588399\t所以有一些地方需要的經費讓地方政府這邊來提供所以像我們現在在地方上就看到我們中央各部會相關單位都到地方來像財神爺這樣不斷的這邊補助那邊補助\n592822\t611238\t那其實有一些如果是屬於地方的人民團體地方的需求包含假設像教育還有一些辦活動的那其實地方政府最清楚地方的需求那一個部分你可以給地方所以不要一句話一個大帽子財政收支劃分法\n611778\t622906\t那財政授權劃分法它中央跟地方一個權責大家劃分我也認同是 但是當時在立法院裡面討論的時候並沒有把事權的檢討討論在內事權那事權檢討如果討論在內的話\n628510\t642417\t那大概就是中央要負責的部分跟地方要負責的部分大概就可以討論清楚那在財政收支劃分法的時候包括到時候的分配比例是怎麼樣的分配法的話我們要按照新的這個財政收支劃分法的範圍來處理\n643858\t644238\t中央針對財政收支劃分法\n674098\t692474\t這個要給地方多的好像三千多億那你們有共識了嗎哪些錢他現在給了地方以後你中央在對地方的補助的時候你的原則你們應該也是沒有一個具體的原則出來然後想到什麼就每一項都推給地方這樣也不對吧\n692974\t714719\t報告委員我想不是每一項都推給地方就是我剛剛所說的財政部對外的說法就是說稅收提撥納入中央統籌分配的比例是有多少跟多少但是我們在初估立法院所通過的財政收支劃分法在中央減少了經常性收入是高達3753億\n717679\t732402\t那各部會非法定義務支出的項目需要配合刪減是百分之二十八左右非法定義務不是非法非法定義務支出項目要配合刪減是百分之二十八也就是我剛所說的就是我們在大院裡面討論財政收支劃分法的時候事權的檢討\n739444\t757638\t並沒有在財政收支劃分法的這個草案裡面解釋的非常清楚那因為內政部的國土署主辦的這個租金補貼是最大項譬如說我們今年為止大概已經有支出153億左右現在重點是你們針對財政收支劃分法新制\n758559\t783627\t中央也沒有共識但是你就把租屋補貼把它列入這樣也不對啊我們寫的公文裡面就是說請他們要思考放到下一年度預算的時候可能是放入自籌款或者是一定統籌分配款裡面來做思考你可以把全文給那個委員參考我就是聽到你這樣講可是你中央對整個財政收支劃分法你也沒有還沒有一個共識說我這3700多億我到底\n786684\t802660\t是用等於哪一些可能我在地方的補助要減少你只是想到租屋補貼你就要地方沒有沒有我想我們沒有那麼的倉促來做決定我剛跟那個委員報告的部分就是這樣子我們在今年年初的時候就有提到這件事情整個行政院有共識嗎\n804221\t827237\t不是我們在年初的時候就已經提醒各地方政府然後是今年三月的時候行政院要求我們跟地方政府就事權上面尤其是以租金補貼來講的話要跟地方政府有這樣子的一個告知所以我們還是以發文的方式那你有沒有聽懂我的問題我的問題就是你中央你行政院要你們告知但是你這個的依據是什麼應該這麼說也跟委員報告啦為什麼地方政府也會急著過來今天如果說我們在這裡\n832401\t852041\t他們要編明年度的預算所以狀況是說如果我們又拖到了年底才決定如果有的話反而是地方政府會倉促來不及這樣反而會影響整個租屋族的這樣的一個權益我想我們都是基於保障所有租屋族的權益提早去告知地方可以的話先預備\n853923\t864314\t這一塊還是中央全權負責啊 也可以啊我想到目前並沒有得到這麼大的授權或是在這方面但是還是要告訴地方政府要有一些預先作為啦好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 本席請署長吳署長有請吳委員好\n署長 這個我們就持續啦剛剛一直在討論這個點焦還有我們這個驗污的那這個點焦的部分我剛剛看您的回答還有看我們這次今天提的報告內政部提的報告這個問題應該幾十年了吧可是到現在您都還沒有具體的然後現在這個問題還一直出現\n本席也很感慨,我21年前擔任議員在議員兩任的任內,剛好大家知道竹北從第一棟大樓蓋到現在5000棟,大概有5000棟\n那當初的第一棟竹北市現在大家知道竹北市的房價跟台北市有拼當時的第一棟就是跟住戶就跟建商住戶跟建商就是這種公設的爭議到現在20幾年還在訴訟那我那時候當議員的時候我還碰到一個情況\n某一個社區出問題他的管委會主委找我然後我們就共同去了解結果原來這位主委他才剛買現在出問題這一棟他之前出問題的就我剛說的第一棟竹北的第一棟然後這兩個建案都同一個建商所以我不知道今天有沒有人提這個有關建商黑名單這個有沒有什麼機制\n你看同一個人他在這一戶發現出問題了他可能受不了他乾脆沒有多少民眾像他可以馬上再買第二戶他就再去買結果第二戶也出問題後來我才發現同一個建案他沒有注意到他是看喜歡他就買\n現在到現在到現在20幾年後了還是這樣所以我們今天我很感謝朝偉拍這個專案這真的是在台灣只要是這種大樓新建然後這個非常蓬勃的這個區塊這問題很大所以我想您先回答一下這建商黑名單你們有什麼\n有什麼樣的機制嗎我不是要對建商怎麼樣而是你今天黑名單你要想辦法跟我們報告因為\n因為我想這個不動產業這一塊那當然他現在很多所謂的黑名單他並不在於對他關鍵是在這一類的話他所謂的保留戶我們之前也都有沒有沒有不一定叫保留戶啊就是建的不好所以一堆問題啊我知道他過去會因為有保留戶的關係掌控了這個管委會\n那他也強制做了點交那在點交完以後這一公社陸陸續續出問題所以這一類的話我們現在比較難是因為因為他不是真實的在管委會管理的主導者背後他是主導者但實務上他不是主導者我指的是表示他的建案就是建的\n很有問題啊那個爭議特多還有公社常常出很多的問題或者是才交屋一兩年什麼地磚磁磚然後各種問題或是公社沒有照當初的設計圖的這我們碰太多了\n所以這為什麼在過程中要有所謂的典交確認那也有所謂的公積金跟保護那等一下我時間已經過很久這是後面我要跟你談我現在說的是就是這樣的建商就很多啊你們要不要弄一些機制比如說他的爭議案怎麼樣怎麼樣的時候那應該要對相關的他應該怎麼樣或者是怎麼樣讓民眾防範民眾那真的很多民眾尤其\n現在全台灣啦我相信接下來的中南部很多新開發區有沒有南科或者是像我知道台南或台中現在建台中一直有啦像這種新開發區很多也是什麼外地的年輕人到那邊工作然後他對那邊也不熟他就去看房子但是呢他常常就買到地雷鼓買到地雷鼓像這怎麼辦好啦我也不能浪費時間我看你這個給你那麼多時間也答不出來\n你兩週內給我們一個回覆好不好好那接著這個當然這防範你答覆的時候你連這個相關點交的這個防範你一起再來就是剛剛也提到專業的燕屋的制度那我現在有沒有可能有專業的燕屋公司我們政府核發執照或相關的\n感謝委員因為現在坊間的業務公司因為建築法規包含到史照有他應該要檢測點交的公設項目包含管線他都有一些標準但是我們實務上看到現在的專業的業務公司他檢驗的項目其實是超出這一些的我現在的問題是現在沒有坊間並沒有政府認證專業的這個\n因為本來他在相關點驗的過程當中你就是可以委託專業的技師因為技師是政府合法執照的那專業技師他來幫你做檢驗而不是驗屋公司所以為什麼一般來講驗屋公司他會去找有專業證照的技師來成立\n那所以那我就反問無照的厭汙市場你要繼續讓他擴大嗎你有什麼方式防堵嗎\n我也說明一下甚至有些我們知道驗污的他搞不好就跟業者他們配合的所以我才會說其實重點是在於驗污的合位驗污的標準那我剛剛也說明了合位驗污標準證你們就要想辦法所以今天不管他是哪一類的他只要有合格的技師合格技師執照那他驗的項目\n有法規內的你就按照法規的標準去執行那當然沒有問題那現在坊間的比較大現在驗物有沒有基本標準所以建築法規裡面有相關標準但是我跟委員報告現在的狀態是有些是驗超出這些項目的他也在驗那我們是認為說驗這些超出法規的項目當然不代表消費者不認同他消費者有些是認同的他有些項目是認同的\n那這一些我們也怕長期是不是會亂了就在市場亂就是說某某業務公司主張了一堆然後大家消費者就要掏錢買單但這些有些是法規以外的也不一定那麼需要所以我們會再來討論你講那麼多我只能說交潮來臨你制度還在沉睡沒有沒有我再說明一下我們中央可不可以有一些積極的作為\n所以我才說明一下就是說我們會找建言所就坊間現在在談的業務標準我說明一下就是說因為本來是在法規以外也不該歸我們國土署來做這樣的一個處理跟市場上的確有這樣的現象的話我們試著找建言所因為建言所是技術單位大家來討論看哪些項目是可以訂出一些標準\n訂出一些標準讓他有一個依循而不是任由業務公司去開價去去訂項目那這樣的話可能會讓這市場比較正常一點我想這部分我們會也會找監事來討論那今天這兩點我請你們一定要積極來做你給我回覆的時候也給我期程好不好好不好意思最後我可不可以請部長上來一下部長有部長有請\n部長今天有關點交還有驗屋我們希望內政部積極來進行內政部盡量來主導接著本席想就租屋補貼的部分我剛剛有聽到您說當初蘇院長就是因為我們稅收增加所以把地方的25%就拿到中央來\n那現在稅收還是增加嘛所以也不要再把25%再加租地方但是財政收支劃分法有做大幅度的修正對 財政收支劃分法所以在這邊本席也跟你這邊我也來提出我們的見解那因為你們可能跨部會行政院會找你們開會財政收支劃分法我們希望地方政府他了解地方的需求\n所以有一些地方需要的經費讓地方政府這邊來提供所以像我們現在在地方上就看到我們中央各部會相關單位都到地方來像財神爺這樣不斷的這邊補助那邊補助\n那其實有一些如果是屬於地方的人民團體地方的需求包含假設像教育還有一些辦活動的那其實地方政府最清楚地方的需求那一個部分你可以給地方所以不要一句話一個大帽子財政收支劃分法\n那財政授權劃分法它中央跟地方一個權責大家劃分我也認同是 但是當時在立法院裡面討論的時候並沒有把事權的檢討討論在內事權那事權檢討如果討論在內的話\n那大概就是中央要負責的部分跟地方要負責的部分大概就可以討論清楚那在財政收支劃分法的時候包括到時候的分配比例是怎麼樣的分配法的話我們要按照新的這個財政收支劃分法的範圍來處理\n中央針對財政收支劃分法\n這個要給地方多的好像三千多億那你們有共識了嗎哪些錢他現在給了地方以後你中央在對地方的補助的時候你的原則你們應該也是沒有一個具體的原則出來然後想到什麼就每一項都推給地方這樣也不對吧\n報告委員我想不是每一項都推給地方就是我剛剛所說的財政部對外的說法就是說稅收提撥納入中央統籌分配的比例是有多少跟多少但是我們在初估立法院所通過的財政收支劃分法在中央減少了經常性收入是高達3753億\n那各部會非法定義務支出的項目需要配合刪減是百分之二十八左右非法定義務不是非法非法定義務支出項目要配合刪減是百分之二十八也就是我剛所說的就是我們在大院裡面討論財政收支劃分法的時候事權的檢討\n並沒有在財政收支劃分法的這個草案裡面解釋的非常清楚那因為內政部的國土署主辦的這個租金補貼是最大項譬如說我們今年為止大概已經有支出153億左右現在重點是你們針對財政收支劃分法新制\n中央也沒有共識但是你就把租屋補貼把它列入這樣也不對啊我們寫的公文裡面就是說請他們要思考放到下一年度預算的時候可能是放入自籌款或者是一定統籌分配款裡面來做思考你可以把全文給那個委員參考我就是聽到你這樣講可是你中央對整個財政收支劃分法你也沒有還沒有一個共識說我這3700多億我到底\n是用等於哪一些可能我在地方的補助要減少你只是想到租屋補貼你就要地方沒有沒有我想我們沒有那麼的倉促來做決定我剛跟那個委員報告的部分就是這樣子我們在今年年初的時候就有提到這件事情整個行政院有共識嗎\n不是我們在年初的時候就已經提醒各地方政府然後是今年三月的時候行政院要求我們跟地方政府就事權上面尤其是以租金補貼來講的話要跟地方政府有這樣子的一個告知所以我們還是以發文的方式那你有沒有聽懂我的問題我的問題就是你中央你行政院要你們告知但是你這個的依據是什麼應該這麼說也跟委員報告啦為什麼地方政府也會急著過來今天如果說我們在這裡\n他們要編明年度的預算所以狀況是說如果我們又拖到了年底才決定如果有的話反而是地方政府會倉促來不及這樣反而會影響整個租屋族的這樣的一個權益我想我們都是基於保障所有租屋族的權益提早去告知地方可以的話先預備\n這一塊還是中央全權負責啊 也可以啊我想到目前並沒有得到這麼大的授權或是在這方面但是還是要告訴地方政府要有一些預先作為啦好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.675 --> 00:11.197\n謝謝主席本席請署長吳署長有請吳委員好\n\n00:23.306 --> 00:47.277\n署長這個我們就持續啦剛剛一直在討論這個點焦還有我們這個驗污的那這個點焦的部分我剛剛看您的回答還有看我們這次今天提的報告內政部提的報告這個問題應該幾十年了吧可是到現在您都還沒有具體的然後現在這個問題還一直出現\n\n00:49.642 --> 01:03.862\n本席也很感慨,我21年前擔任議員在議員兩任的任內,剛好大家知道竹北從第一棟大樓蓋到現在5000棟,大概有5000棟\n\n01:06.411 --> 01:26.721\n那當初的第一棟竹北市現在大家知道竹北市的房價跟台北市有拼當時的第一棟就是跟住戶就跟建商住戶跟建商就是這種公設的爭議到現在20幾年還在訴訟那我那時候當議員的時候我還碰到一個情況\n\n01:28.220 --> 01:56.616\n某一個社區出問題他的管委會主委找我然後我們就共同去了解結果原來這位主委他才剛買現在出問題這一棟他之前出問題的就我剛說的第一棟竹北的第一棟然後這兩個建案都同一個建商所以我不知道今天有沒有人提這個有關建商黑名單這個有沒有什麼機制\n\n01:59.574 --> 02:18.763\n你看同一個人他在這一戶發現出問題了他可能受不了他乾脆沒有多少民眾像他可以馬上再買第二戶他就再去買結果第二戶也出問題後來我才發現同一個建案他沒有注意到他是看喜歡他就買\n\n02:21.637 --> 02:45.015\n現在到現在到現在20幾年後了還是這樣所以我們今天我很感謝朝偉拍這個專案這真的是在台灣只要是這種大樓新建然後這個非常蓬勃的這個區塊這問題很大所以我想您先回答一下這建商黑名單你們有什麼\n\n02:46.445 --> 02:54.316\n有什麼樣的機制嗎我不是要對建商怎麼樣而是你今天黑名單你要想辦法跟我們報告因為\n\n02:58.106 --> 03:20.942\n因為我想這個不動產業這一塊那當然他現在很多所謂的黑名單他並不在於對他關鍵是在這一類的話他所謂的保留戶我們之前也都有沒有沒有不一定叫保留戶啊就是建的不好所以一堆問題啊我知道他過去會因為有保留戶的關係掌控了這個管委會\n\n03:21.983 --> 03:44.252\n那他也強制做了點交那在點交完以後這一公社陸陸續續出問題所以這一類的話我們現在比較難是因為因為他不是真實的在管委會管理的主導者背後他是主導者但實務上他不是主導者我指的是表示他的建案就是建的\n\n03:44.932 --> 03:59.197\n很有問題啊那個爭議特多還有公社常常出很多的問題或者是才交屋一兩年什麼地磚磁磚然後各種問題或是公社沒有照當初的設計圖的這我們碰太多了\n\n04:01.844 --> 04:29.373\n所以這為什麼在過程中要有所謂的典交確認那也有所謂的公積金跟保護那等一下我時間已經過很久這是後面我要跟你談我現在說的是就是這樣的建商就很多啊你們要不要弄一些機制比如說他的爭議案怎麼樣怎麼樣的時候那應該要對相關的他應該怎麼樣或者是怎麼樣讓民眾防範民眾那真的很多民眾尤其\n\n04:30.633 --> 04:59.148\n現在全台灣啦我相信接下來的中南部很多新開發區有沒有南科或者是像我知道台南或台中現在建台中一直有啦像這種新開發區很多也是什麼外地的年輕人到那邊工作然後他對那邊也不熟他就去看房子但是呢他常常就買到地雷鼓買到地雷鼓像這怎麼辦好啦我也不能浪費時間我看你這個給你那麼多時間也答不出來\n\n05:00.117 --> 05:26.321\n你兩週內給我們一個回覆好不好好那接著這個當然這防範你答覆的時候你連這個相關點交的這個防範你一起再來就是剛剛也提到專業的燕屋的制度那我現在有沒有可能有專業的燕屋公司我們政府核發執照或相關的\n\n05:28.149 --> 05:49.838\n感謝委員因為現在坊間的業務公司因為建築法規包含到史照有他應該要檢測點交的公設項目包含管線他都有一些標準但是我們實務上看到現在的專業的業務公司他檢驗的項目其實是超出這一些的我現在的問題是現在沒有坊間並沒有政府認證專業的這個\n\n05:57.031 --> 06:18.070\n因為本來他在相關點驗的過程當中你就是可以委託專業的技師因為技師是政府合法執照的那專業技師他來幫你做檢驗而不是驗屋公司所以為什麼一般來講驗屋公司他會去找有專業證照的技師來成立\n\n06:20.672 --> 06:21.955\n那所以那我就反問無照的厭汙市場你要繼續讓他擴大嗎你有什麼方式防堵嗎\n\n06:28.530 --> 06:52.632\n我也說明一下甚至有些我們知道驗污的他搞不好就跟業者他們配合的所以我才會說其實重點是在於驗污的合位驗污的標準那我剛剛也說明了合位驗污標準證你們就要想辦法所以今天不管他是哪一類的他只要有合格的技師合格技師執照那他驗的項目\n\n06:54.213 --> 07:22.518\n有法規內的你就按照法規的標準去執行那當然沒有問題那現在坊間的比較大現在驗物有沒有基本標準所以建築法規裡面有相關標準但是我跟委員報告現在的狀態是有些是驗超出這些項目的他也在驗那我們是認為說驗這些超出法規的項目當然不代表消費者不認同他消費者有些是認同的他有些項目是認同的\n\n07:23.078 --> 07:45.393\n那這一些我們也怕長期是不是會亂了就在市場亂就是說某某業務公司主張了一堆然後大家消費者就要掏錢買單但這些有些是法規以外的也不一定那麼需要所以我們會再來討論你講那麼多我只能說交潮來臨你制度還在沉睡沒有沒有我再說明一下我們中央可不可以有一些積極的作為\n\n07:46.414 --> 08:11.441\n所以我才說明一下就是說我們會找建言所就坊間現在在談的業務標準我說明一下就是說因為本來是在法規以外也不該歸我們國土署來做這樣的一個處理跟市場上的確有這樣的現象的話我們試著找建言所因為建言所是技術單位大家來討論看哪些項目是可以訂出一些標準\n\n08:12.641 --> 08:34.387\n訂出一些標準讓他有一個依循而不是任由業務公司去開價去去訂項目那這樣的話可能會讓這市場比較正常一點我想這部分我們會也會找監事來討論那今天這兩點我請你們一定要積極來做你給我回覆的時候也給我期程好不好好不好意思最後我可不可以請部長上來一下部長有部長有請\n\n08:40.544 --> 09:06.118\n部長今天有關點交還有驗屋我們希望內政部積極來進行內政部盡量來主導接著本席想就租屋補貼的部分我剛剛有聽到您說當初蘇院長就是因為我們稅收增加所以把地方的25%就拿到中央來\n\n09:07.239 --> 09:33.351\n那現在稅收還是增加嘛所以也不要再把25%再加租地方但是財政收支劃分法有做大幅度的修正對財政收支劃分法所以在這邊本席也跟你這邊我也來提出我們的見解那因為你們可能跨部會行政院會找你們開會財政收支劃分法我們希望地方政府他了解地方的需求\n\n09:33.971 --> 09:48.399\n所以有一些地方需要的經費讓地方政府這邊來提供所以像我們現在在地方上就看到我們中央各部會相關單位都到地方來像財神爺這樣不斷的這邊補助那邊補助\n\n09:52.822 --> 10:11.238\n那其實有一些如果是屬於地方的人民團體地方的需求包含假設像教育還有一些辦活動的那其實地方政府最清楚地方的需求那一個部分你可以給地方所以不要一句話一個大帽子財政收支劃分法\n\n10:11.778 --> 10:22.906\n那財政授權劃分法它中央跟地方一個權責大家劃分我也認同是但是當時在立法院裡面討論的時候並沒有把事權的檢討討論在內事權那事權檢討如果討論在內的話\n\n10:28.510 --> 10:42.417\n那大概就是中央要負責的部分跟地方要負責的部分大概就可以討論清楚那在財政收支劃分法的時候包括到時候的分配比例是怎麼樣的分配法的話我們要按照新的這個財政收支劃分法的範圍來處理\n\n10:43.858 --> 10:44.238\n中央針對財政收支劃分法\n\n11:14.098 --> 11:32.474\n這個要給地方多的好像三千多億那你們有共識了嗎哪些錢他現在給了地方以後你中央在對地方的補助的時候你的原則你們應該也是沒有一個具體的原則出來然後想到什麼就每一項都推給地方這樣也不對吧\n\n11:32.974 --> 11:54.719\n報告委員我想不是每一項都推給地方就是我剛剛所說的財政部對外的說法就是說稅收提撥納入中央統籌分配的比例是有多少跟多少但是我們在初估立法院所通過的財政收支劃分法在中央減少了經常性收入是高達3753億\n\n11:57.679 --> 12:12.402\n那各部會非法定義務支出的項目需要配合刪減是百分之二十八左右非法定義務不是非法非法定義務支出項目要配合刪減是百分之二十八也就是我剛所說的就是我們在大院裡面討論財政收支劃分法的時候事權的檢討\n\n12:19.444 --> 12:37.638\n並沒有在財政收支劃分法的這個草案裡面解釋的非常清楚那因為內政部的國土署主辦的這個租金補貼是最大項譬如說我們今年為止大概已經有支出153億左右現在重點是你們針對財政收支劃分法新制\n\n12:38.559 --> 13:03.627\n中央也沒有共識但是你就把租屋補貼把它列入這樣也不對啊我們寫的公文裡面就是說請他們要思考放到下一年度預算的時候可能是放入自籌款或者是一定統籌分配款裡面來做思考你可以把全文給那個委員參考我就是聽到你這樣講可是你中央對整個財政收支劃分法你也沒有還沒有一個共識說我這3700多億我到底\n\n13:06.684 --> 13:22.660\n是用等於哪一些可能我在地方的補助要減少你只是想到租屋補貼你就要地方沒有沒有我想我們沒有那麼的倉促來做決定我剛跟那個委員報告的部分就是這樣子我們在今年年初的時候就有提到這件事情整個行政院有共識嗎\n\n13:24.221 --> 13:47.237\n不是我們在年初的時候就已經提醒各地方政府然後是今年三月的時候行政院要求我們跟地方政府就事權上面尤其是以租金補貼來講的話要跟地方政府有這樣子的一個告知所以我們還是以發文的方式那你有沒有聽懂我的問題我的問題就是你中央你行政院要你們告知但是你這個的依據是什麼應該這麼說也跟委員報告啦為什麼地方政府也會急著過來今天如果說我們在這裡\n\n13:52.401 --> 14:12.041\n他們要編明年度的預算所以狀況是說如果我們又拖到了年底才決定如果有的話反而是地方政府會倉促來不及這樣反而會影響整個租屋族的這樣的一個權益我想我們都是基於保障所有租屋族的權益提早去告知地方可以的話先預備\n\n14:13.923 --> 14:24.314\n這一塊還是中央全權負責啊也可以啊我想到目前並沒有得到這麼大的授權或是在這方面但是還是要告訴地方政府要有一些預先作為啦好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.675,"end":11.197,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請署長吳署長有請吳委員好"},{"start":23.306,"end":47.277,"text":"署長 這個我們就持續啦剛剛一直在討論這個點焦還有我們這個驗污的那這個點焦的部分我剛剛看您的回答還有看我們這次今天提的報告內政部提的報告這個問題應該幾十年了吧可是到現在您都還沒有具體的然後現在這個問題還一直出現"},{"start":49.642,"end":63.862,"text":"本席也很感慨,我21年前擔任議員在議員兩任的任內,剛好大家知道竹北從第一棟大樓蓋到現在5000棟,大概有5000棟"},{"start":66.411,"end":86.721,"text":"那當初的第一棟竹北市現在大家知道竹北市的房價跟台北市有拼當時的第一棟就是跟住戶就跟建商住戶跟建商就是這種公設的爭議到現在20幾年還在訴訟那我那時候當議員的時候我還碰到一個情況"},{"start":88.22,"end":116.616,"text":"某一個社區出問題他的管委會主委找我然後我們就共同去了解結果原來這位主委他才剛買現在出問題這一棟他之前出問題的就我剛說的第一棟竹北的第一棟然後這兩個建案都同一個建商所以我不知道今天有沒有人提這個有關建商黑名單這個有沒有什麼機制"},{"start":119.574,"end":138.763,"text":"你看同一個人他在這一戶發現出問題了他可能受不了他乾脆沒有多少民眾像他可以馬上再買第二戶他就再去買結果第二戶也出問題後來我才發現同一個建案他沒有注意到他是看喜歡他就買"},{"start":141.637,"end":165.015,"text":"現在到現在到現在20幾年後了還是這樣所以我們今天我很感謝朝偉拍這個專案這真的是在台灣只要是這種大樓新建然後這個非常蓬勃的這個區塊這問題很大所以我想您先回答一下這建商黑名單你們有什麼"},{"start":166.445,"end":174.316,"text":"有什麼樣的機制嗎我不是要對建商怎麼樣而是你今天黑名單你要想辦法跟我們報告因為"},{"start":178.106,"end":200.942,"text":"因為我想這個不動產業這一塊那當然他現在很多所謂的黑名單他並不在於對他關鍵是在這一類的話他所謂的保留戶我們之前也都有沒有沒有不一定叫保留戶啊就是建的不好所以一堆問題啊我知道他過去會因為有保留戶的關係掌控了這個管委會"},{"start":201.983,"end":224.252,"text":"那他也強制做了點交那在點交完以後這一公社陸陸續續出問題所以這一類的話我們現在比較難是因為因為他不是真實的在管委會管理的主導者背後他是主導者但實務上他不是主導者我指的是表示他的建案就是建的"},{"start":224.932,"end":239.197,"text":"很有問題啊那個爭議特多還有公社常常出很多的問題或者是才交屋一兩年什麼地磚磁磚然後各種問題或是公社沒有照當初的設計圖的這我們碰太多了"},{"start":241.844,"end":269.373,"text":"所以這為什麼在過程中要有所謂的典交確認那也有所謂的公積金跟保護那等一下我時間已經過很久這是後面我要跟你談我現在說的是就是這樣的建商就很多啊你們要不要弄一些機制比如說他的爭議案怎麼樣怎麼樣的時候那應該要對相關的他應該怎麼樣或者是怎麼樣讓民眾防範民眾那真的很多民眾尤其"},{"start":270.633,"end":299.148,"text":"現在全台灣啦我相信接下來的中南部很多新開發區有沒有南科或者是像我知道台南或台中現在建台中一直有啦像這種新開發區很多也是什麼外地的年輕人到那邊工作然後他對那邊也不熟他就去看房子但是呢他常常就買到地雷鼓買到地雷鼓像這怎麼辦好啦我也不能浪費時間我看你這個給你那麼多時間也答不出來"},{"start":300.117,"end":326.321,"text":"你兩週內給我們一個回覆好不好好那接著這個當然這防範你答覆的時候你連這個相關點交的這個防範你一起再來就是剛剛也提到專業的燕屋的制度那我現在有沒有可能有專業的燕屋公司我們政府核發執照或相關的"},{"start":328.149,"end":349.838,"text":"感謝委員因為現在坊間的業務公司因為建築法規包含到史照有他應該要檢測點交的公設項目包含管線他都有一些標準但是我們實務上看到現在的專業的業務公司他檢驗的項目其實是超出這一些的我現在的問題是現在沒有坊間並沒有政府認證專業的這個"},{"start":357.031,"end":378.07,"text":"因為本來他在相關點驗的過程當中你就是可以委託專業的技師因為技師是政府合法執照的那專業技師他來幫你做檢驗而不是驗屋公司所以為什麼一般來講驗屋公司他會去找有專業證照的技師來成立"},{"start":380.672,"end":381.955,"text":"那所以那我就反問無照的厭汙市場你要繼續讓他擴大嗎你有什麼方式防堵嗎"},{"start":388.53,"end":412.632,"text":"我也說明一下甚至有些我們知道驗污的他搞不好就跟業者他們配合的所以我才會說其實重點是在於驗污的合位驗污的標準那我剛剛也說明了合位驗污標準證你們就要想辦法所以今天不管他是哪一類的他只要有合格的技師合格技師執照那他驗的項目"},{"start":414.213,"end":442.518,"text":"有法規內的你就按照法規的標準去執行那當然沒有問題那現在坊間的比較大現在驗物有沒有基本標準所以建築法規裡面有相關標準但是我跟委員報告現在的狀態是有些是驗超出這些項目的他也在驗那我們是認為說驗這些超出法規的項目當然不代表消費者不認同他消費者有些是認同的他有些項目是認同的"},{"start":443.078,"end":465.393,"text":"那這一些我們也怕長期是不是會亂了就在市場亂就是說某某業務公司主張了一堆然後大家消費者就要掏錢買單但這些有些是法規以外的也不一定那麼需要所以我們會再來討論你講那麼多我只能說交潮來臨你制度還在沉睡沒有沒有我再說明一下我們中央可不可以有一些積極的作為"},{"start":466.414,"end":491.441,"text":"所以我才說明一下就是說我們會找建言所就坊間現在在談的業務標準我說明一下就是說因為本來是在法規以外也不該歸我們國土署來做這樣的一個處理跟市場上的確有這樣的現象的話我們試著找建言所因為建言所是技術單位大家來討論看哪些項目是可以訂出一些標準"},{"start":492.641,"end":514.387,"text":"訂出一些標準讓他有一個依循而不是任由業務公司去開價去去訂項目那這樣的話可能會讓這市場比較正常一點我想這部分我們會也會找監事來討論那今天這兩點我請你們一定要積極來做你給我回覆的時候也給我期程好不好好不好意思最後我可不可以請部長上來一下部長有部長有請"},{"start":520.544,"end":546.118,"text":"部長今天有關點交還有驗屋我們希望內政部積極來進行內政部盡量來主導接著本席想就租屋補貼的部分我剛剛有聽到您說當初蘇院長就是因為我們稅收增加所以把地方的25%就拿到中央來"},{"start":547.239,"end":573.351,"text":"那現在稅收還是增加嘛所以也不要再把25%再加租地方但是財政收支劃分法有做大幅度的修正對 財政收支劃分法所以在這邊本席也跟你這邊我也來提出我們的見解那因為你們可能跨部會行政院會找你們開會財政收支劃分法我們希望地方政府他了解地方的需求"},{"start":573.971,"end":588.399,"text":"所以有一些地方需要的經費讓地方政府這邊來提供所以像我們現在在地方上就看到我們中央各部會相關單位都到地方來像財神爺這樣不斷的這邊補助那邊補助"},{"start":592.822,"end":611.238,"text":"那其實有一些如果是屬於地方的人民團體地方的需求包含假設像教育還有一些辦活動的那其實地方政府最清楚地方的需求那一個部分你可以給地方所以不要一句話一個大帽子財政收支劃分法"},{"start":611.778,"end":622.906,"text":"那財政授權劃分法它中央跟地方一個權責大家劃分我也認同是 但是當時在立法院裡面討論的時候並沒有把事權的檢討討論在內事權那事權檢討如果討論在內的話"},{"start":628.51,"end":642.417,"text":"那大概就是中央要負責的部分跟地方要負責的部分大概就可以討論清楚那在財政收支劃分法的時候包括到時候的分配比例是怎麼樣的分配法的話我們要按照新的這個財政收支劃分法的範圍來處理"},{"start":643.858,"end":644.238,"text":"中央針對財政收支劃分法"},{"start":674.098,"end":692.474,"text":"這個要給地方多的好像三千多億那你們有共識了嗎哪些錢他現在給了地方以後你中央在對地方的補助的時候你的原則你們應該也是沒有一個具體的原則出來然後想到什麼就每一項都推給地方這樣也不對吧"},{"start":692.974,"end":714.719,"text":"報告委員我想不是每一項都推給地方就是我剛剛所說的財政部對外的說法就是說稅收提撥納入中央統籌分配的比例是有多少跟多少但是我們在初估立法院所通過的財政收支劃分法在中央減少了經常性收入是高達3753億"},{"start":717.679,"end":732.402,"text":"那各部會非法定義務支出的項目需要配合刪減是百分之二十八左右非法定義務不是非法非法定義務支出項目要配合刪減是百分之二十八也就是我剛所說的就是我們在大院裡面討論財政收支劃分法的時候事權的檢討"},{"start":739.444,"end":757.638,"text":"並沒有在財政收支劃分法的這個草案裡面解釋的非常清楚那因為內政部的國土署主辦的這個租金補貼是最大項譬如說我們今年為止大概已經有支出153億左右現在重點是你們針對財政收支劃分法新制"},{"start":758.559,"end":783.627,"text":"中央也沒有共識但是你就把租屋補貼把它列入這樣也不對啊我們寫的公文裡面就是說請他們要思考放到下一年度預算的時候可能是放入自籌款或者是一定統籌分配款裡面來做思考你可以把全文給那個委員參考我就是聽到你這樣講可是你中央對整個財政收支劃分法你也沒有還沒有一個共識說我這3700多億我到底"},{"start":786.684,"end":802.66,"text":"是用等於哪一些可能我在地方的補助要減少你只是想到租屋補貼你就要地方沒有沒有我想我們沒有那麼的倉促來做決定我剛跟那個委員報告的部分就是這樣子我們在今年年初的時候就有提到這件事情整個行政院有共識嗎"},{"start":804.221,"end":827.237,"text":"不是我們在年初的時候就已經提醒各地方政府然後是今年三月的時候行政院要求我們跟地方政府就事權上面尤其是以租金補貼來講的話要跟地方政府有這樣子的一個告知所以我們還是以發文的方式那你有沒有聽懂我的問題我的問題就是你中央你行政院要你們告知但是你這個的依據是什麼應該這麼說也跟委員報告啦為什麼地方政府也會急著過來今天如果說我們在這裡"},{"start":832.401,"end":852.041,"text":"他們要編明年度的預算所以狀況是說如果我們又拖到了年底才決定如果有的話反而是地方政府會倉促來不及這樣反而會影響整個租屋族的這樣的一個權益我想我們都是基於保障所有租屋族的權益提早去告知地方可以的話先預備"},{"start":853.923,"end":864.314,"text":"這一塊還是中央全權負責啊 也可以啊我想到目前並沒有得到這麼大的授權或是在這方面但是還是要告訴地方政府要有一些預先作為啦好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":669,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時32分）謝謝主席，本席請署長。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：吳署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：署長，我們就持續剛剛一直在討論的點交還有驗屋的問題，關於點交的部分，我剛剛聽了您的回答還有看了內政部提的報告，這個問題應該有幾十年了吧？可是到現在您都還沒有具體的方法，然後現在問題還一直出現。本席也很感慨，我21年前擔任議員，在兩任議員的任內，竹北從第一棟大樓蓋到現在已經大概有5,000棟。大家也知道竹北市的房價跟臺北市有拚，當時的第一棟住戶跟建商就有這種公設的爭議，到現在都二十幾年了還在訴訟。在我當議員的時候還有碰到一個情況，就是某一個社區出了問題，管委會的主委來找我，然後我們就共同去了解，結果原來這位主委才剛買現在出了問題的這一棟，他之前出問題的就是我剛剛說的在竹北的第一棟，然後這兩個建案都是同一個建商，我不知道今天有沒有人提到有關建商黑名單的問題，這個有沒有什麼機制？你看同一個人，他買這一戶以後發現出問題了，他可能受不了，乾脆再去買，沒有多少民眾可以像他一樣馬上再買第二戶，結果第二戶也出問題，後來才發現是同一個建商，他沒有注意到，他就是看了喜歡然後就買了，到現在已經二十幾年了還是這樣。我很感謝召委排今天這個專案報告，因為在臺灣只要是這種新建的大樓然後是在非常蓬勃的區塊，這方面的問題都很大，所以我想請您先回答一下，對建商黑名單你們有什麼樣的機制？我不是要對建商怎麼樣，而是你今天對黑名單要想辦法啊！怎麼辦？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我想在不動產業這一塊當然現在有很多所謂的黑名單，它並不在於……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是他的表現不好嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對，關鍵是在這一類的話，所謂的保留戶，我們之前也都有討論過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，不一定叫保留戶，它就是建得不好，所以一堆問題啊！"],["吳署長欣修：我知道，他過去因為有保留戶的關係而掌控了管委會，他也強制做了點交，在點交完以後，這些公設陸陸續續出問題……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在要問的是你針對這樣子的建商有什麼作法？"],["吳署長欣修：對於這一類我們現在比較難處理，因為他不是真實在管委會管理的主導者。背後他是主導者，但是實務上他不是主導者，主要是因為保留戶……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我指的是表示他的建案就是建得很有問題，爭議特多，還有公設常常出很多的問題，或者是才交屋一、兩年，就有什麼地磚、磁磚損壞等各種問題，或是公設沒有照當初的設計圖，我們碰到太多了。"],["吳署長欣修：所以這就是為什麼在過程中要有所謂的點交、確認，也有所謂的公基金跟保固……"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下，我的時間已經不夠了，這是後面我要跟你談的，我現在要說的是這樣的建商就很多啊！你們要不要弄一些機制？譬如說在爭議案怎麼樣的時候，那他應該要怎麼樣或者是怎麼樣讓民眾防範？因為真的有很多民眾，尤其現在全臺灣，我相信接下來在中南部有很多新開發區，有沒有？像南科，我知道在臺南或臺中都有，在臺中一直有，像這種新開發區，很多外地的年輕人到那邊工作，然後他對那邊也不熟，就去看房子，常常就買到地雷股，像這樣要怎麼辦？好啦！我也不能浪費時間，我給你那麼多時間，你也答不出來，你在2週內給我回復，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請你在答復的時候連點交相關問題的防範也一起說明。再來，剛剛也提到專業的驗屋制度，現在有沒有由政府核發執照的專業驗屋公司？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，現在坊間驗屋公司的狀況是這樣，因為建築法規包含使照有應該要檢測、點交的公設項目，包含管線等都有一些標準，但是我們實務上看到現在專業驗屋公司的檢驗項目其實是超出這一些的，那這一些……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我現在問的問題是現在坊間並沒有政府認證的專業驗屋公司，你們覺得要不要朝這個方向？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，因為本來在相關點驗的過程當中，就是可以委託專業的技師。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，剛剛有講了。"],["吳署長欣修：因為技師是由政府核發執照的，由專業的技師來幫你檢驗，而不是驗屋公司，所以一般來講，驗屋公司會去找有專業證照的技師來成立。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我就反問你，你要讓無照的驗屋市場繼續擴大嗎？你有什麼方式防堵嗎？我們知道甚至有些驗屋的人搞不好就是跟業者配合，專門來幫他驗。"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才會說其實重點是在於何謂驗屋的標準，那我剛剛也說明了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們就要想辦法訂定驗屋標準嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：今天不管他是哪一類的，只要有合格的技師執照，他驗的項目有法規內的，就按照法規的標準去執行，當然就沒有問題，那現在坊間比較大的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在驗屋有沒有基本標準？"],["吳署長欣修：在建築法規裡面有相關的標準，但是我跟委員報告，現在的狀態是有些驗屋是超出這些項目的，他也有在驗，我們認為驗這些超出法規的項目，當然不代表消費者不認同它，消費者對有些項目是認同的。我們也怕這樣長期下來這個市場是不是會亂了，就是某某驗屋公司主張了一堆，然後消費者就要掏錢買單，但有些是法規以外的，也不一定那麼需要，所以我們會再來討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！你講那麼多，我只能說交屋潮即將來臨，你們的制度還在沈睡……"],["吳署長欣修：沒有、沒有，我再說明一下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：中央可不可以有一些積極的作為？"],["吳署長欣修：我再說明一下，就是我們會找建研所就坊間現在在談的驗屋標準……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你會找，可是找到現在……"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，因為本來在法規以外的，也不該歸國土署來處理……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那內政部來整合嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：如果在市場上的確有這樣的現象，我們試著找建研所，因為建研所是技術單位，大家討論看看哪些項目可以訂出一些標準……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["吳署長欣修：訂出一些標準讓它有一個依循，而不是任由驗屋公司去開價、訂項目，這樣的話，可能會讓這個市場比較正常一點，這個部分我們會找建研所來討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這兩點我請你們一定要積極來做，你們給我回復的時候也給我期程，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不好意思，最後我可不可以請部長上來一下？"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長，今天討論有關點交還有驗屋，我們希望內政部積極進行，儘量由內政部來主導。接著本席想就租屋補貼的部分提問，我剛剛有聽到您說，當初蘇院長因為我們稅收增加，所以把25%拿到中央來，現在稅收還是增加，所以不要再把25%加諸地方，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：但是財政收支劃分法有大幅度的修正。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，關於財政收支劃分法，本席在這邊也跟你提出我們的見解，你們可能是跨部會，行政院會找你們開會，地方政府了解地方的需求，所以有一些地方需要的經費，讓地方政府來提供，我們現在在地方上就看到中央各部會相關單位都到地方來，像財神爺一樣，不斷的這邊補助、那邊補助。有一些是屬於地方的人民團體，地方的需求，包含教育，還有一些辦活動的，其實地方政府最清楚地方的需求，那一個部分可以給地方，所以不要一句話、一個大帽子就說是依據財政收支劃分法。財政收支劃分法是中央跟地方的權責劃分，我也認同……"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是當時在立法院討論，並沒有把事權的檢討討論在內，如果事權檢討討論在內的話，中央要負責的部分跟地方要負責的部分大概就可以討論清楚，包括到時候財政收支劃分法的分配比例是怎麼樣的分配，我們要按照新的財政收支劃分法的範圍來處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我懂。"],["劉部長世芳：當時因為事權沒有檢討，我想委員也有聽到我們的說法，因為五都的公務單位都要求國土署應該給個公文，讓他們在處理明年度預算的時候，看要不要把租金補貼的方式放到地方政府的預算裡面，將其編列進去，所以我們發了一個公文給22個縣市，請他們參考。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我想請教，針對財政收支劃分法，中央好像要多給地方三千多億，那你們有共識了嗎？現在那些錢給了地方以後，中央在對地方補助時的原則，你們應該也沒有一個具體原則，想到什麼就把每一項都推給地方，這樣也不對吧！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想不是每一項都推給地方，我剛剛所說的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個部分……"],["劉部長世芳：財政部對外的說法是，稅收提撥納入中央統籌分配的比例有多少跟多少，但是我們粗估這一次立法院所通過的財政收支劃分法，中央減少經常性收入高達3,753億，各部會非法定義務支出的項目，需要配合刪減的是28%左右，也就是我剛才所說的，我們在大院裡面討論財政收支劃分法的時候，事權的檢討並沒有在財政收支劃分法的草案裡面解釋得非常清楚，因為內政部國土署主辦的租金補貼是最大項，今年為止，大概已經支出1,553億左右……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，這個是後面的細節，現在的重點是，針對財政收支劃分法的新制，中央也沒有共識，但是你們就把租屋補貼列入，這樣也不對啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我們寫的公文就是請他們思考放到下一年度的預算，可能是放入自籌款，或者是在統籌分配款裡面來思考，我們可以把全文給委員參考。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道，我就是聽到你這樣講，可是中央對整個財政收支劃分法也還沒有共識，這三千七百多億到底可能哪一些地方的補助要減少，你們只是想到租屋補貼，你們就要地方……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我們沒有那麼倉促的決定，我剛才跟委員報告的是，我們在今年年初就有提到這件事情……"],["徐委員欣瑩：整個行政院有共識嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們在年初就已經提醒各地方政府，今年3月，行政院要求我們跟地方政府就事權上面，尤其是以租金補貼來講，要跟地方政府告知，所以我們是以發文的方式。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你有沒有聽懂我的問題？我的問題就是，中央、行政院要你們告知，但是你的依據是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，也跟委員報告，為什麼地方政府也會急著過來？今天如果我們在這裡……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他們要編明年度的預算。"],["吳署長欣修：是，這個狀況是，如果我們拖到了年底才決定，反而地方政府會倉促、來不及，這樣會影響整個租屋族的權益，我們都是基於保障所有租屋族的權益而提早告知地方，可以的話，預先準備……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一塊還是可以由中央全權負責啊！"],["吳署長欣修：我想這方面目前並沒有得到這麼大的授權……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是行政院的問題……"],["吳署長欣修：但還是要告訴地方政府，他們要有一些預先作為。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-26","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","黃建賓","李柏毅","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李坤城","謝龍介","黃國昌","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃健豪","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長就「公寓大廈公設點交爭議及其處理與預防作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、「住宅法」：(一)繼續審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法\n第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(三)繼續審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查\n委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)繼續審查委員賴士葆等17人\n擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、( 六) 繼續審查委員牛煦庭等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(八)繼續審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 九) 繼續審查委員羅智強等16 人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)繼續審查委\n員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十二)繼續審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具\n「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案、(十三)繼續審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部\n分條文修正草案」案、( 十四) 繼續審查委員李坤城等24 人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(十五)繼續審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)繼續審查委\n員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十七)繼續審查委員高金素梅等27人擬\n具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法\n第二條條文修正草案」案、(十九)繼續審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 繼續審查委員林倩綺等23 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(二十一)審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)審查委員\n陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、( 二十四) 審查委員許宇甄等20 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二十五)審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十六)審查委員\n林月琴等19人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十七)審查委員楊曜等22人擬具「住宅法\n第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二十八)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十五條\n及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(二十九)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(三十)審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十一)審查\n委員蘇巧慧等17 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 三十二) 審查委員羅明才等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十三)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「住宅法增訂第四條之\n一條文草案」案、(三十四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十九條及第二十條條\n文修正草案」案、(三十五)審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三\n十六)審查委員游顥等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十七)審查委員羅智強等\n16人擬具「住宅法第四十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(三十八)審查委員葉元之等19人擬\n具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案【進行專題報告及詢答，並宣讀住宅法第 ( 二十一) 案至第\n(三十八)案提案條文】","agenda_id":"1146201_00015"}}}