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00:00:58,047\n那在去年就決定要延長到115年那當然我想不管是對於我們租族的補助從當時在政府的時候的12萬戶到50萬戶到現在賴政府的時候到75萬戶其實要租金補貼給我們的這些弱勢族群或是一些年輕人我們覺得是利益良善我們也都全部都支持不過剛剛講到當時的說法是由中央主辦不需要地方任何的配合款\n\n3\n00:00:58,727 --> 00:01:17,044\n那中央直接發給這個租屋主那這些白紙黑字目前還寫在行政院的新聞稿上也還在行政院的網站上面而113年8月的時候核定的修正版本延續這個政策到115年那現在因為\n\n4\n00:01:18,045 --> 00:01:31,216\n你們今年發出這樣一個公文之後引起地方的整個的大反彈喔就是當時是說好中央要全額負擔現在就反悔要地方出錢我們可以看一下下一頁我們可以看到在114從111年開始\n\n5\n00:01:34,478 --> 00:01:51,935\n扩大为300亿元的这个租屋补贴的方案到114年我们可以看到既然是说好的要由中央全额补助现在却要地方政府负担一定的比例请问是部长您做的决定还是我们卓荣泰院长做的决定\n\n6\n00:01:53,055 --> 00:02:16,709\n報告委員我想我們是依據那個貴院所通過的財政收支劃分法然後行政院的主計處要求我們在租金補貼上面的要跟地方政府來做一下不管是未來的比例的分配上面所以我們才會有這樣的公文那剛剛有跟委員報告過最主要是地方政府他們要籌編下一年度預算的時候需要我們用公文告知他們所以我們就在\n\n7\n00:02:17,729 --> 00:02:46,001\n6月12號的時候國土署把公文發出去給各縣市地方政府對部長我們在推動這樣的一個社會福利的政策的時候要片面的片根照理說是要先跟地方政府溝通不過剛從您回答徐信穎委員講的你們是告知地方政府而不是跟地方政府溝通喔所以這個部分請問你們有事前溝通我們不知道嗎我們在今年年初的時候有跟地方政府先做告知我想請署長跟您回應就是告知嗎而不是溝通嗎\n\n8\n00:02:46,721 --> 00:03:15,470\n也跟我們報告因為我們每一季都有定期的這個住宅租金補貼的一個檢討會議我們在今年主計總署通知我們以後我們就在檢討會議裡面都有告知所有的縣市政府可能要面對重點是要告知他們有這個狀況因為財政收支劃分法準確上路的時間我們當時都還不知道但是必須要讓地方政府有預言預念的空間那現在財政收支劃分法會在115年上路嗎是\n\n9\n00:03:16,450 --> 00:03:20,091\n對那現在主計處他們在編列115年的經費事實上有已經出來要怎麼來這個部分要怎麼來編列嗎還沒有確定對還沒有確定那你現在就要地方說我要刪減你多少可是他預為因應因為他如果不預為因應到最後如果真的產生分配的話那請問他要怎麼預為因應\n\n10\n00:03:35,096 --> 00:03:53,509\n因為明年到底要給他們多少是會依照我們立法院的決議來去做但是他要送給議會的必須要有這個項目他先保留這個項目的話到時候不管出來的結果他總有一個科目但是如果現在完全不做的話你們這個公文給各縣市政府縣市政府是說沒問題我們全力來支持還是大部分的縣市政府都反彈\n\n11\n00:04:01,994 --> 00:04:22,520\n說明一下因為我們上禮拜發出去那其實也是跟我們報告是因為六都有五都已經都打電話來了因為他必須要這樣做那也就是說大家在行政作業上都要有一個預為作業的空間存在我們來看一下那個地方補助的這個自籌款你可以看一下新北市是30%台北市40%台中市30%雲林縣是10%你可以看到台中市其實是高達21.77億元\n\n12\n00:04:31,463 --> 00:04:34,587\n那但是呢根據我們今年剛剛說要刪減這個我們一般性補助款636億那各縣市這個會被刪減的金額以台中市就被刪減32.4億你在這個地方又要叫他自籌21.4億\n\n13\n00:04:47,623 --> 00:05:12,597\n七七億然後包括雲林縣來說你要他三減三十七點六億這個地方又要他這個自籌五千六百六十四億元雲林縣是屬於五級的財政的縣市喔所以他要他籌這五千多五千六百六十四萬元再加上你們三減他的三十七點六億元這不但是這個一幾年他撥了好多層皮你知道嗎這是兩個不同年度的因為我們今年的租金補貼都沒有變\n\n14\n00:05:15,919 --> 00:05:21,583\n我們知道現在是115年的租金補貼支酬以後地方政府會增加收入但是會增加多少不知道嗎是嗎現在主計總署有出來他會依照我們的立法會的決議嗎我們實在是有時候對這個真的沒有信心啊所以跟我們報告為什麼地方政府會需要我們發這個公示他起碼有這個項目有這個科目在那如果是這樣的話為什麼地方政府會反彈呢\n\n15\n00:05:41,418 --> 00:05:46,320\n所以我才會想說首長可能不了解事務上的作業首長可能不了解因為今天來邀請的都是行政單位是行政單位來我覺得如果溝通好的話應該是縣市長應該是會樂觀傾城你這個財化法都已經要多給我縣市政府那麼多錢了\n\n16\n00:06:01,525 --> 00:06:04,429\n那我可以負擔一部分那實務上就是因為沒有溝通好嘛這跟好像半路被土匪這個來入場那種感覺一樣行政單位有沒有跟首長去溝通我想他們其實都心理上都有準備現在應該不是推給地方而是你這個計畫本來就是到114年就是都有全部中央買單\n\n17\n00:06:21,309 --> 00:06:33,461\n然後現在延長到115年那是不是就可以用這樣的方式這90億就由我們的中央來處理因為這是一個政策嘛這個政策的延續就是這樣而且包括你可能會講說這90億要怎麼來其實我記得你們在刪減這個地方的一般性補助款636億的時候你們也建議地方說可以去舉債啊\n\n18\n00:06:43,931 --> 00:06:46,192\n我想這是114跟115我們也沒有去講過因為這個不是一般性補助款的項目不是因為租金補貼不在一般性補助款我知道啊但是我的意思就是說當時你們都可以說沒錢你們可以去舉債啊\n\n19\n00:07:01,016 --> 00:07:15,439\n那這時候其實中央政府我覺得也可以把這個到115年的這個租金補貼的這個利益良善的政策把它完備而不是說現在本來大家都覺得很好而且一直都是中央請客中央買單\n\n20\n00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:32,004\n現在忽然要中央請客地方買單而且是在最後的一年延長的一年不是只有地方買單中央還是負責最大的部分那我們只是回到110年前地方政府原來你們已經負擔了四年了在最後一年卻做這樣其實我覺得對你們是相當不利那最後的時間我想要來請教一下再請我們行政院的消保處中處長\n\n21\n00:07:48,104 --> 00:08:03,278\n我想再請教一下就是其實我們在這個建築業我們在建築業跟房仲業者會促銷房屋的時候我們可以看到會有不同的方式來製作廣告包括說宣稱有劇院啦有宴會KTV啦\n\n22\n00:08:04,679 --> 00:08:29,049\n遊戲區等公共的設施但等設施空間申請的用途常常都是用梯間或停車空間那已經涉及變更使用然後建案廣告於事實不符導致買方對產品產生錯誤的了解也違反了公平交易法第21條也不實廣告之嫌可以處罰五萬元以上兩千五百萬以下的罰還限時改善會改善者還可以連續處罰所以請問處長\n\n23\n00:08:31,830 --> 00:08:59,081\n現行的法規對於不實廣告是以處罰罰還為主喔但對很多人來說買房子是人生的大事所以他們其實在買房子的時候公設比還有他們公設的這個到底休閒公設有多少也是他們買的一個重點那所以如果在這個時候就是公設違法或者是未完工要如何進行點交這樣的消費爭議其實相當的多那請問消保處有沒有什麼具體的預防措施\n\n24\n00:09:00,001 --> 00:09:23,247\n原則上如果是像這個公設違法的狀況這個依照公平法我們可能就會把查到有相關的案件我們除了跟主管機關說以後我們還是會去跟那個公平會來說明那公平會這種案子呢在裁罰案子上其實是非常多的對我查到的資料也是在獎勵停車空間改裝作為公設使用的案件非常多那請問一下消保處這邊有什麼具體的作為嗎\n\n25\n00:09:25,908 --> 00:09:42,604\n我們原則上是這樣齁我們一方面我們也會跟這個內政部會去做一些聯合的查核啦在查核面那法規面的部分呢因為目前有公民法可以處理齁那所以如果除我們也可以再跟這個地政司再研究一下說有沒有其他的這個印記載負責有沒有預防的措施因為我們明明知道有這麼多的問題有沒有預防的措施\n\n26\n00:09:46,358 --> 00:09:59,615\n這個部分我們可以再跟地政司再討論一下就是說在應記載跟不得記載事項的一些法規範上面地政司市長在旁邊嗎對在做一些處理那這個討論要多久的時間基本上的話部分就像\n\n27\n00:10:00,939 --> 00:10:18,326\n已經有公平法可以做處理所以我們現在比較著重的是在於執行面的部分所以像縣市政府跟消保處我們都有在做聯合稽查定期的聯合稽查你現在講的是執行面嘛我現在問的是明明知道會有這麼多的問題有沒有預防面的做法怎麼去預防這個問題有沒有這樣子的一個做法\n\n28\n00:10:23,659 --> 00:10:49,151\n我們可能會如果法制面要加強的話我們可能會把一些常見的違規太陽整理出來給那個建設業者來做參考但我覺得應該是不要等到事情發生之後我們才來做處置而是明明就知道有這麼多問題剛剛處長也特別提到說針對這個獎勵停車空間改裝成公設事實上有非常多這樣的案件明知道有這麼多的案件是不是可以我們給一些做一些預防的措施讓這樣的案件不要再一直產生\n\n29\n00:10:50,748 --> 00:11:17,607\n再跟小寶處這邊討論一下那最後請教一下部長喔部長請問一下就是有關公寓大廈公設的點交喔雖然有公寓大廈管理條例第57條的規範但是呢常常會因為這樣子公設導致就是遲至幾年都沒有完成移交那這個部分也妨礙整個社區的發展所以請問部長為了避免一再發生這一個這個點交的僵局喔\n\n30\n00:11:18,147 --> 00:11:32,594\n內政部有沒有什麼更穩妥的方法可以來去處理目前的機制確實像委員所關心的部分目前的機制這樣子長久以來所累積的部分確實我們沒有辦法現在的法規上面就做很好的處置\n\n31\n00:11:33,795 --> 00:11:53,170\n那尤其是剛有提到說公寓大廈裡面有很多建商他們的所佔的這個比例比較高的狀況之下有的時候就是求援兼裁判那所以對於單一的購買的這個買家的話呢他可能會有遭受到這樣的困擾那所以呢我們希望能夠用這個所謂的第三方機制的方式啊\n\n32\n00:11:53,530 --> 00:12:08,307\n第一個提供樣態請大家來參考第二個呢看能不能導入其他的輔導的方式來協助就是受到這個點交然後沒有辦法完成這個居住品質上面的困擾的這些人但是事實上確實不容易\n\n33\n00:12:08,507 --> 00:12:22,708\n因為按照現在的公寓大廈管理條例的管委會的行程通常在尤其是第一屆的時候管委會裡面的行程大概建商居多那這一點的從事困擾我們相當多所以我們現在的機制大概就是以比如說你請\n\n34\n00:12:24,130 --> 00:12:51,686\n他在契約上面把他寫清楚那如果沒有按照契約走的時候那可能要以這個民事訴訟的方式來解決那這個又是曠日廢時啦那所以就是會產生惡性循環這個可能我們目前碰到相當大的挑戰在這邊我想請部長因為部長大概都知道問題在哪裡啊所以是不是請部長針對這個部分針對內政部的我們的各處的大家還有消保處這邊大家可以共同來去研究要如何去預防\n\n35\n00:12:52,106 --> 00:12:56,834\n这样子的一个点交出现了这么多的僵局来保障我们的消费者谢谢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5104\t10569\t謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳興修署長劉部長 吳署長有請部長好 雙好本席要請教的是有關我們這次的300億元中央擴大租金補貼的專案計畫因為這個計畫本來是從111年到114年 4年的計畫\n28684\t58047\t那在去年就決定要延長到115年那當然我想不管是對於我們租族的補助從當時在政府的時候的12萬戶到50萬戶到現在賴政府的時候到75萬戶其實要租金補貼給我們的這些弱勢族群或是一些年輕人我們覺得是利益良善我們也都全部都支持不過剛剛講到當時的說法是由中央主辦不需要地方任何的配合款\n58727\t77044\t那中央直接發給這個租屋主那這些白紙黑字目前還寫在行政院的新聞稿上也還在行政院的網站上面而113年8月的時候核定的修正版本延續這個政策到115年那現在因為\n78045\t91216\t你們今年發出這樣一個公文之後引起地方的整個的大反彈喔就是當時是說好中央要全額負擔現在就反悔要地方出錢我們可以看一下下一頁我們可以看到在114從111年開始\n94478\t111935\t扩大为300亿元的这个租屋补贴的方案到114年我们可以看到既然是说好的要由中央全额补助现在却要地方政府负担一定的比例请问是部长您做的决定还是我们卓荣泰院长做的决定\n113055\t136709\t報告委員我想我們是依據那個貴院所通過的財政收支劃分法然後行政院的主計處要求我們在租金補貼上面的要跟地方政府來做一下不管是未來的比例的分配上面所以我們才會有這樣的公文那剛剛有跟委員報告過最主要是地方政府他們要籌編下一年度預算的時候需要我們用公文告知他們所以我們就在\n137729\t166001\t6月12號的時候國土署把公文發出去給各縣市地方政府對 部長我們在推動這樣的一個社會福利的政策的時候要片面的片根照理說是要先跟地方政府溝通不過剛從您回答徐信穎委員講的你們是告知地方政府而不是跟地方政府溝通喔所以這個部分請問你們有事前溝通我們不知道嗎我們在今年年初的時候有跟地方政府先做告知我想請署長跟您回應就是告知嗎 而不是溝通嗎\n166721\t195470\t也跟我們報告因為我們每一季都有定期的這個住宅租金補貼的一個檢討會議我們在今年主計總署通知我們以後我們就在檢討會議裡面都有告知所有的縣市政府可能要面對重點是要告知他們有這個狀況因為財政收支劃分法準確上路的時間我們當時都還不知道但是必須要讓地方政府有預言預念的空間那現在財政收支劃分法會在115年上路嗎是\n196450\t200091\t對那現在主計處他們在編列115年的經費事實上有已經出來要怎麼來這個部分要怎麼來編列嗎還沒有確定對還沒有確定那你現在就要地方說我要刪減你多少可是他預為因應因為他如果不預為因應到最後如果真的產生分配的話那請問他要怎麼預為因應\n215096\t233509\t因為明年到底要給他們多少是會依照我們立法院的決議來去做但是他要送給議會的必須要有這個項目他先保留這個項目的話到時候不管出來的結果他總有一個科目但是如果現在完全不做的話你們這個公文給各縣市政府縣市政府是說沒問題我們全力來支持還是大部分的縣市政府都反彈\n241994\t262520\t說明一下因為我們上禮拜發出去那其實也是跟我們報告是因為六都有五都已經都打電話來了因為他必須要這樣做那也就是說大家在行政作業上都要有一個預為作業的空間存在我們來看一下那個地方補助的這個自籌款你可以看一下新北市是30%台北市40%台中市30%雲林縣是10%你可以看到台中市其實是高達21.77億元\n271463\t274587\t那但是呢根據我們今年剛剛說要刪減這個我們一般性補助款636億那各縣市這個會被刪減的金額以台中市就被刪減32.4億你在這個地方又要叫他自籌21.4億\n287623\t312597\t七七億然後包括雲林縣來說你要他三減三十七點六億這個地方又要他這個自籌五千六百六十四億元雲林縣是屬於五級的財政的縣市喔所以他要他籌這五千多五千六百六十四萬元再加上你們三減他的三十七點六億元這不但是這個一幾年他撥了好多層皮你知道嗎這是兩個不同年度的因為我們今年的租金補貼都沒有變\n315919\t321583\t我們知道現在是115年的租金補貼支酬以後地方政府會增加收入但是會增加多少不知道嗎是嗎現在主計總署有出來他會依照我們的立法會的決議嗎我們實在是有時候對這個真的沒有信心啊所以跟我們報告為什麼地方政府會需要我們發這個公示他起碼有這個項目有這個科目在那如果是這樣的話為什麼地方政府會反彈呢\n341418\t346320\t所以我才會想說首長可能不了解事務上的作業首長可能不了解因為今天來邀請的都是行政單位是行政單位來我覺得如果溝通好的話應該是縣市長應該是會樂觀傾城你這個財化法都已經要多給我縣市政府那麼多錢了\n361525\t364429\t那我可以負擔一部分那實務上就是因為沒有溝通好嘛這跟好像半路被土匪這個來入場那種感覺一樣行政單位有沒有跟首長去溝通我想他們其實都心理上都有準備現在應該不是推給地方而是你這個計畫本來就是到114年就是都有全部中央買單\n381309\t393461\t然後現在延長到115年那是不是就可以用這樣的方式這90億就由我們的中央來處理因為這是一個政策嘛這個政策的延續就是這樣而且包括你可能會講說這90億要怎麼來其實我記得你們在刪減這個地方的一般性補助款636億的時候你們也建議地方說可以去舉債啊\n403931\t406192\t我想這是114跟115我們也沒有去講過因為這個不是一般性補助款的項目不是因為租金補貼不在一般性補助款我知道啊但是我的意思就是說當時你們都可以說沒錢你們可以去舉債啊\n421016\t435439\t那這時候其實中央政府我覺得也可以把這個到115年的這個租金補貼的這個利益良善的政策把它完備而不是說現在本來大家都覺得很好而且一直都是中央請客中央買單\n436480\t452004\t現在忽然要中央請客地方買單而且是在最後的一年延長的一年不是只有地方買單中央還是負責最大的部分那我們只是回到110年前地方政府原來你們已經負擔了四年了在最後一年卻做這樣其實我覺得對你們是相當不利那最後的時間我想要來請教一下再請我們行政院的消保處中處長\n468104\t483278\t我想再請教一下就是其實我們在這個建築業我們在建築業跟房仲業者會促銷房屋的時候我們可以看到會有不同的方式來製作廣告包括說宣稱有劇院啦有宴會KTV啦\n484679\t509049\t遊戲區等公共的設施但等設施空間申請的用途常常都是用梯間或停車空間那已經涉及變更使用然後建案廣告於事實不符導致買方對產品產生錯誤的了解也違反了公平交易法第21條也不實廣告之嫌可以處罰五萬元以上兩千五百萬以下的罰還限時改善會改善者還可以連續處罰所以請問處長\n511830\t539081\t現行的法規對於不實廣告是以處罰罰還為主喔但對很多人來說買房子是人生的大事所以他們其實在買房子的時候公設比還有他們公設的這個到底休閒公設有多少也是他們買的一個重點那所以如果在這個時候就是公設違法或者是未完工要如何進行點交這樣的消費爭議其實相當的多那請問消保處有沒有什麼具體的預防措施\n540001\t563247\t原則上如果是像這個公設違法的狀況這個依照公平法我們可能就會把查到有相關的案件我們除了跟主管機關說以後我們還是會去跟那個公平會來說明那公平會這種案子呢在裁罰案子上其實是非常多的對我查到的資料也是在獎勵停車空間改裝作為公設使用的案件非常多那請問一下消保處這邊有什麼具體的作為嗎\n565908\t582604\t我們原則上是這樣齁 我們一方面我們也會跟這個內政部會去做一些聯合的查核啦 在查核面那法規面的部分呢 因為目前有公民法可以處理齁那所以 如果除 我們也可以再跟這個地政司再研究一下說有沒有其他的這個印記載負責有沒有預防的措施 因為我們明明知道有這麼多的問題 有沒有預防的措施\n586358\t599615\t這個部分我們可以再跟地政司再討論一下就是說在應記載跟不得記載事項的一些法規範上面地政司市長在旁邊嗎對 在做一些處理那這個討論要多久的時間基本上的話部分就像\n600939\t618326\t已經有公平法可以做處理所以我們現在比較著重的是在於執行面的部分所以像縣市政府跟消保處我們都有在做聯合稽查定期的聯合稽查你現在講的是執行面嘛我現在問的是明明知道會有這麼多的問題有沒有預防面的做法怎麼去預防這個問題有沒有這樣子的一個做法\n623659\t649151\t我們可能會如果法制面要加強的話我們可能會把一些常見的違規太陽整理出來給那個建設業者來做參考但我覺得應該是不要等到事情發生之後我們才來做處置而是明明就知道有這麼多問題剛剛處長也特別提到說針對這個獎勵停車空間改裝成公設事實上有非常多這樣的案件明知道有這麼多的案件是不是可以我們給一些做一些預防的措施讓這樣的案件不要再一直產生\n650748\t677607\t再跟小寶處這邊討論一下那最後請教一下部長喔部長 請問一下就是有關公寓大廈公設的點交喔雖然有公寓大廈管理條例第57條的規範但是呢 常常會因為這樣子公設導致就是遲至幾年都沒有完成移交那這個部分也妨礙整個社區的發展所以請問部長為了避免一再發生這一個這個點交的僵局喔\n678147\t692594\t內政部有沒有什麼更穩妥的方法可以來去處理目前的機制確實像委員所關心的部分目前的機制這樣子長久以來所累積的部分確實我們沒有辦法現在的法規上面就做很好的處置\n693795\t713170\t那尤其是剛有提到說公寓大廈裡面有很多建商他們的所佔的這個比例比較高的狀況之下有的時候就是求援兼裁判那所以對於單一的購買的這個買家的話呢他可能會有遭受到這樣的困擾那所以呢我們希望能夠用這個所謂的第三方機制的方式啊\n713530\t728307\t第一個提供樣態請大家來參考第二個呢看能不能導入其他的輔導的方式來協助就是受到這個點交然後沒有辦法完成這個居住品質上面的困擾的這些人但是事實上確實不容易\n728507\t742708\t因為按照現在的公寓大廈管理條例的管委會的行程通常在 尤其是第一屆的時候管委會裡面的行程大概建商居多那這一點的從事困擾我們相當多所以我們現在的機制大概就是以比如說你請\n744130\t771686\t他在契約上面把他寫清楚那如果沒有按照契約走的時候那可能要以這個民事訴訟的方式來解決那這個又是曠日廢時啦那所以就是會產生惡性循環這個可能我們目前碰到相當大的挑戰在這邊我想請部長 因為部長大概都知道問題在哪裡啊所以是不是請部長針對這個部分針對內政部的我們的各處的大家還有消保處這邊大家可以共同來去研究要如何去預防\n772106\t776834\t这样子的一个点交出现了这么多的僵局来保障我们的消费者谢谢\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳興修署長劉部長 吳署長有請部長好 雙好本席要請教的是有關我們這次的300億元中央擴大租金補貼的專案計畫因為這個計畫本來是從111年到114年 4年的計畫\n那在去年就決定要延長到115年那當然我想不管是對於我們租族的補助從當時在政府的時候的12萬戶到50萬戶到現在賴政府的時候到75萬戶其實要租金補貼給我們的這些弱勢族群或是一些年輕人我們覺得是利益良善我們也都全部都支持不過剛剛講到當時的說法是由中央主辦不需要地方任何的配合款\n那中央直接發給這個租屋主那這些白紙黑字目前還寫在行政院的新聞稿上也還在行政院的網站上面而113年8月的時候核定的修正版本延續這個政策到115年那現在因為\n你們今年發出這樣一個公文之後引起地方的整個的大反彈喔就是當時是說好中央要全額負擔現在就反悔要地方出錢我們可以看一下下一頁我們可以看到在114從111年開始\n扩大为300亿元的这个租屋补贴的方案到114年我们可以看到既然是说好的要由中央全额补助现在却要地方政府负担一定的比例请问是部长您做的决定还是我们卓荣泰院长做的决定\n報告委員我想我們是依據那個貴院所通過的財政收支劃分法然後行政院的主計處要求我們在租金補貼上面的要跟地方政府來做一下不管是未來的比例的分配上面所以我們才會有這樣的公文那剛剛有跟委員報告過最主要是地方政府他們要籌編下一年度預算的時候需要我們用公文告知他們所以我們就在\n6月12號的時候國土署把公文發出去給各縣市地方政府對 部長我們在推動這樣的一個社會福利的政策的時候要片面的片根照理說是要先跟地方政府溝通不過剛從您回答徐信穎委員講的你們是告知地方政府而不是跟地方政府溝通喔所以這個部分請問你們有事前溝通我們不知道嗎我們在今年年初的時候有跟地方政府先做告知我想請署長跟您回應就是告知嗎 而不是溝通嗎\n也跟我們報告因為我們每一季都有定期的這個住宅租金補貼的一個檢討會議我們在今年主計總署通知我們以後我們就在檢討會議裡面都有告知所有的縣市政府可能要面對重點是要告知他們有這個狀況因為財政收支劃分法準確上路的時間我們當時都還不知道但是必須要讓地方政府有預言預念的空間那現在財政收支劃分法會在115年上路嗎是\n對那現在主計處他們在編列115年的經費事實上有已經出來要怎麼來這個部分要怎麼來編列嗎還沒有確定對還沒有確定那你現在就要地方說我要刪減你多少可是他預為因應因為他如果不預為因應到最後如果真的產生分配的話那請問他要怎麼預為因應\n因為明年到底要給他們多少是會依照我們立法院的決議來去做但是他要送給議會的必須要有這個項目他先保留這個項目的話到時候不管出來的結果他總有一個科目但是如果現在完全不做的話你們這個公文給各縣市政府縣市政府是說沒問題我們全力來支持還是大部分的縣市政府都反彈\n說明一下因為我們上禮拜發出去那其實也是跟我們報告是因為六都有五都已經都打電話來了因為他必須要這樣做那也就是說大家在行政作業上都要有一個預為作業的空間存在我們來看一下那個地方補助的這個自籌款你可以看一下新北市是30%台北市40%台中市30%雲林縣是10%你可以看到台中市其實是高達21.77億元\n那但是呢根據我們今年剛剛說要刪減這個我們一般性補助款636億那各縣市這個會被刪減的金額以台中市就被刪減32.4億你在這個地方又要叫他自籌21.4億\n七七億然後包括雲林縣來說你要他三減三十七點六億這個地方又要他這個自籌五千六百六十四億元雲林縣是屬於五級的財政的縣市喔所以他要他籌這五千多五千六百六十四萬元再加上你們三減他的三十七點六億元這不但是這個一幾年他撥了好多層皮你知道嗎這是兩個不同年度的因為我們今年的租金補貼都沒有變\n我們知道現在是115年的租金補貼支酬以後地方政府會增加收入但是會增加多少不知道嗎是嗎現在主計總署有出來他會依照我們的立法會的決議嗎我們實在是有時候對這個真的沒有信心啊所以跟我們報告為什麼地方政府會需要我們發這個公示他起碼有這個項目有這個科目在那如果是這樣的話為什麼地方政府會反彈呢\n所以我才會想說首長可能不了解事務上的作業首長可能不了解因為今天來邀請的都是行政單位是行政單位來我覺得如果溝通好的話應該是縣市長應該是會樂觀傾城你這個財化法都已經要多給我縣市政府那麼多錢了\n那我可以負擔一部分那實務上就是因為沒有溝通好嘛這跟好像半路被土匪這個來入場那種感覺一樣行政單位有沒有跟首長去溝通我想他們其實都心理上都有準備現在應該不是推給地方而是你這個計畫本來就是到114年就是都有全部中央買單\n然後現在延長到115年那是不是就可以用這樣的方式這90億就由我們的中央來處理因為這是一個政策嘛這個政策的延續就是這樣而且包括你可能會講說這90億要怎麼來其實我記得你們在刪減這個地方的一般性補助款636億的時候你們也建議地方說可以去舉債啊\n我想這是114跟115我們也沒有去講過因為這個不是一般性補助款的項目不是因為租金補貼不在一般性補助款我知道啊但是我的意思就是說當時你們都可以說沒錢你們可以去舉債啊\n那這時候其實中央政府我覺得也可以把這個到115年的這個租金補貼的這個利益良善的政策把它完備而不是說現在本來大家都覺得很好而且一直都是中央請客中央買單\n現在忽然要中央請客地方買單而且是在最後的一年延長的一年不是只有地方買單中央還是負責最大的部分那我們只是回到110年前地方政府原來你們已經負擔了四年了在最後一年卻做這樣其實我覺得對你們是相當不利那最後的時間我想要來請教一下再請我們行政院的消保處中處長\n我想再請教一下就是其實我們在這個建築業我們在建築業跟房仲業者會促銷房屋的時候我們可以看到會有不同的方式來製作廣告包括說宣稱有劇院啦有宴會KTV啦\n遊戲區等公共的設施但等設施空間申請的用途常常都是用梯間或停車空間那已經涉及變更使用然後建案廣告於事實不符導致買方對產品產生錯誤的了解也違反了公平交易法第21條也不實廣告之嫌可以處罰五萬元以上兩千五百萬以下的罰還限時改善會改善者還可以連續處罰所以請問處長\n現行的法規對於不實廣告是以處罰罰還為主喔但對很多人來說買房子是人生的大事所以他們其實在買房子的時候公設比還有他們公設的這個到底休閒公設有多少也是他們買的一個重點那所以如果在這個時候就是公設違法或者是未完工要如何進行點交這樣的消費爭議其實相當的多那請問消保處有沒有什麼具體的預防措施\n原則上如果是像這個公設違法的狀況這個依照公平法我們可能就會把查到有相關的案件我們除了跟主管機關說以後我們還是會去跟那個公平會來說明那公平會這種案子呢在裁罰案子上其實是非常多的對我查到的資料也是在獎勵停車空間改裝作為公設使用的案件非常多那請問一下消保處這邊有什麼具體的作為嗎\n我們原則上是這樣齁 我們一方面我們也會跟這個內政部會去做一些聯合的查核啦 在查核面那法規面的部分呢 因為目前有公民法可以處理齁那所以 如果除 我們也可以再跟這個地政司再研究一下說有沒有其他的這個印記載負責有沒有預防的措施 因為我們明明知道有這麼多的問題 有沒有預防的措施\n這個部分我們可以再跟地政司再討論一下就是說在應記載跟不得記載事項的一些法規範上面地政司市長在旁邊嗎對 在做一些處理那這個討論要多久的時間基本上的話部分就像\n已經有公平法可以做處理所以我們現在比較著重的是在於執行面的部分所以像縣市政府跟消保處我們都有在做聯合稽查定期的聯合稽查你現在講的是執行面嘛我現在問的是明明知道會有這麼多的問題有沒有預防面的做法怎麼去預防這個問題有沒有這樣子的一個做法\n我們可能會如果法制面要加強的話我們可能會把一些常見的違規太陽整理出來給那個建設業者來做參考但我覺得應該是不要等到事情發生之後我們才來做處置而是明明就知道有這麼多問題剛剛處長也特別提到說針對這個獎勵停車空間改裝成公設事實上有非常多這樣的案件明知道有這麼多的案件是不是可以我們給一些做一些預防的措施讓這樣的案件不要再一直產生\n再跟小寶處這邊討論一下那最後請教一下部長喔部長 請問一下就是有關公寓大廈公設的點交喔雖然有公寓大廈管理條例第57條的規範但是呢 常常會因為這樣子公設導致就是遲至幾年都沒有完成移交那這個部分也妨礙整個社區的發展所以請問部長為了避免一再發生這一個這個點交的僵局喔\n內政部有沒有什麼更穩妥的方法可以來去處理目前的機制確實像委員所關心的部分目前的機制這樣子長久以來所累積的部分確實我們沒有辦法現在的法規上面就做很好的處置\n那尤其是剛有提到說公寓大廈裡面有很多建商他們的所佔的這個比例比較高的狀況之下有的時候就是求援兼裁判那所以對於單一的購買的這個買家的話呢他可能會有遭受到這樣的困擾那所以呢我們希望能夠用這個所謂的第三方機制的方式啊\n第一個提供樣態請大家來參考第二個呢看能不能導入其他的輔導的方式來協助就是受到這個點交然後沒有辦法完成這個居住品質上面的困擾的這些人但是事實上確實不容易\n因為按照現在的公寓大廈管理條例的管委會的行程通常在 尤其是第一屆的時候管委會裡面的行程大概建商居多那這一點的從事困擾我們相當多所以我們現在的機制大概就是以比如說你請\n他在契約上面把他寫清楚那如果沒有按照契約走的時候那可能要以這個民事訴訟的方式來解決那這個又是曠日廢時啦那所以就是會產生惡性循環這個可能我們目前碰到相當大的挑戰在這邊我想請部長 因為部長大概都知道問題在哪裡啊所以是不是請部長針對這個部分針對內政部的我們的各處的大家還有消保處這邊大家可以共同來去研究要如何去預防\n这样子的一个点交出现了这么多的僵局来保障我们的消费者谢谢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.104 --> 00:10.569\n謝謝主席我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳興修署長劉部長吳署長有請部長好雙好本席要請教的是有關我們這次的300億元中央擴大租金補貼的專案計畫因為這個計畫本來是從111年到114年4年的計畫\n\n00:28.684 --> 00:58.047\n那在去年就決定要延長到115年那當然我想不管是對於我們租族的補助從當時在政府的時候的12萬戶到50萬戶到現在賴政府的時候到75萬戶其實要租金補貼給我們的這些弱勢族群或是一些年輕人我們覺得是利益良善我們也都全部都支持不過剛剛講到當時的說法是由中央主辦不需要地方任何的配合款\n\n00:58.727 --> 01:17.044\n那中央直接發給這個租屋主那這些白紙黑字目前還寫在行政院的新聞稿上也還在行政院的網站上面而113年8月的時候核定的修正版本延續這個政策到115年那現在因為\n\n01:18.045 --> 01:31.216\n你們今年發出這樣一個公文之後引起地方的整個的大反彈喔就是當時是說好中央要全額負擔現在就反悔要地方出錢我們可以看一下下一頁我們可以看到在114從111年開始\n\n01:34.478 --> 01:51.935\n扩大为300亿元的这个租屋补贴的方案到114年我们可以看到既然是说好的要由中央全额补助现在却要地方政府负担一定的比例请问是部长您做的决定还是我们卓荣泰院长做的决定\n\n01:53.055 --> 02:16.709\n報告委員我想我們是依據那個貴院所通過的財政收支劃分法然後行政院的主計處要求我們在租金補貼上面的要跟地方政府來做一下不管是未來的比例的分配上面所以我們才會有這樣的公文那剛剛有跟委員報告過最主要是地方政府他們要籌編下一年度預算的時候需要我們用公文告知他們所以我們就在\n\n02:17.729 --> 02:46.001\n6月12號的時候國土署把公文發出去給各縣市地方政府對部長我們在推動這樣的一個社會福利的政策的時候要片面的片根照理說是要先跟地方政府溝通不過剛從您回答徐信穎委員講的你們是告知地方政府而不是跟地方政府溝通喔所以這個部分請問你們有事前溝通我們不知道嗎我們在今年年初的時候有跟地方政府先做告知我想請署長跟您回應就是告知嗎而不是溝通嗎\n\n02:46.721 --> 03:15.470\n也跟我們報告因為我們每一季都有定期的這個住宅租金補貼的一個檢討會議我們在今年主計總署通知我們以後我們就在檢討會議裡面都有告知所有的縣市政府可能要面對重點是要告知他們有這個狀況因為財政收支劃分法準確上路的時間我們當時都還不知道但是必須要讓地方政府有預言預念的空間那現在財政收支劃分法會在115年上路嗎是\n\n03:16.450 --> 03:20.091\n對那現在主計處他們在編列115年的經費事實上有已經出來要怎麼來這個部分要怎麼來編列嗎還沒有確定對還沒有確定那你現在就要地方說我要刪減你多少可是他預為因應因為他如果不預為因應到最後如果真的產生分配的話那請問他要怎麼預為因應\n\n03:35.096 --> 03:53.509\n因為明年到底要給他們多少是會依照我們立法院的決議來去做但是他要送給議會的必須要有這個項目他先保留這個項目的話到時候不管出來的結果他總有一個科目但是如果現在完全不做的話你們這個公文給各縣市政府縣市政府是說沒問題我們全力來支持還是大部分的縣市政府都反彈\n\n04:01.994 --> 04:22.520\n說明一下因為我們上禮拜發出去那其實也是跟我們報告是因為六都有五都已經都打電話來了因為他必須要這樣做那也就是說大家在行政作業上都要有一個預為作業的空間存在我們來看一下那個地方補助的這個自籌款你可以看一下新北市是30%台北市40%台中市30%雲林縣是10%你可以看到台中市其實是高達21.77億元\n\n04:31.463 --> 04:34.587\n那但是呢根據我們今年剛剛說要刪減這個我們一般性補助款636億那各縣市這個會被刪減的金額以台中市就被刪減32.4億你在這個地方又要叫他自籌21.4億\n\n04:47.623 --> 05:12.597\n七七億然後包括雲林縣來說你要他三減三十七點六億這個地方又要他這個自籌五千六百六十四億元雲林縣是屬於五級的財政的縣市喔所以他要他籌這五千多五千六百六十四萬元再加上你們三減他的三十七點六億元這不但是這個一幾年他撥了好多層皮你知道嗎這是兩個不同年度的因為我們今年的租金補貼都沒有變\n\n05:15.919 --> 05:21.583\n我們知道現在是115年的租金補貼支酬以後地方政府會增加收入但是會增加多少不知道嗎是嗎現在主計總署有出來他會依照我們的立法會的決議嗎我們實在是有時候對這個真的沒有信心啊所以跟我們報告為什麼地方政府會需要我們發這個公示他起碼有這個項目有這個科目在那如果是這樣的話為什麼地方政府會反彈呢\n\n05:41.418 --> 05:46.320\n所以我才會想說首長可能不了解事務上的作業首長可能不了解因為今天來邀請的都是行政單位是行政單位來我覺得如果溝通好的話應該是縣市長應該是會樂觀傾城你這個財化法都已經要多給我縣市政府那麼多錢了\n\n06:01.525 --> 06:04.429\n那我可以負擔一部分那實務上就是因為沒有溝通好嘛這跟好像半路被土匪這個來入場那種感覺一樣行政單位有沒有跟首長去溝通我想他們其實都心理上都有準備現在應該不是推給地方而是你這個計畫本來就是到114年就是都有全部中央買單\n\n06:21.309 --> 06:33.461\n然後現在延長到115年那是不是就可以用這樣的方式這90億就由我們的中央來處理因為這是一個政策嘛這個政策的延續就是這樣而且包括你可能會講說這90億要怎麼來其實我記得你們在刪減這個地方的一般性補助款636億的時候你們也建議地方說可以去舉債啊\n\n06:43.931 --> 06:46.192\n我想這是114跟115我們也沒有去講過因為這個不是一般性補助款的項目不是因為租金補貼不在一般性補助款我知道啊但是我的意思就是說當時你們都可以說沒錢你們可以去舉債啊\n\n07:01.016 --> 07:15.439\n那這時候其實中央政府我覺得也可以把這個到115年的這個租金補貼的這個利益良善的政策把它完備而不是說現在本來大家都覺得很好而且一直都是中央請客中央買單\n\n07:16.480 --> 07:32.004\n現在忽然要中央請客地方買單而且是在最後的一年延長的一年不是只有地方買單中央還是負責最大的部分那我們只是回到110年前地方政府原來你們已經負擔了四年了在最後一年卻做這樣其實我覺得對你們是相當不利那最後的時間我想要來請教一下再請我們行政院的消保處中處長\n\n07:48.104 --> 08:03.278\n我想再請教一下就是其實我們在這個建築業我們在建築業跟房仲業者會促銷房屋的時候我們可以看到會有不同的方式來製作廣告包括說宣稱有劇院啦有宴會KTV啦\n\n08:04.679 --> 08:29.049\n遊戲區等公共的設施但等設施空間申請的用途常常都是用梯間或停車空間那已經涉及變更使用然後建案廣告於事實不符導致買方對產品產生錯誤的了解也違反了公平交易法第21條也不實廣告之嫌可以處罰五萬元以上兩千五百萬以下的罰還限時改善會改善者還可以連續處罰所以請問處長\n\n08:31.830 --> 08:59.081\n現行的法規對於不實廣告是以處罰罰還為主喔但對很多人來說買房子是人生的大事所以他們其實在買房子的時候公設比還有他們公設的這個到底休閒公設有多少也是他們買的一個重點那所以如果在這個時候就是公設違法或者是未完工要如何進行點交這樣的消費爭議其實相當的多那請問消保處有沒有什麼具體的預防措施\n\n09:00.001 --> 09:23.247\n原則上如果是像這個公設違法的狀況這個依照公平法我們可能就會把查到有相關的案件我們除了跟主管機關說以後我們還是會去跟那個公平會來說明那公平會這種案子呢在裁罰案子上其實是非常多的對我查到的資料也是在獎勵停車空間改裝作為公設使用的案件非常多那請問一下消保處這邊有什麼具體的作為嗎\n\n09:25.908 --> 09:42.604\n我們原則上是這樣齁我們一方面我們也會跟這個內政部會去做一些聯合的查核啦在查核面那法規面的部分呢因為目前有公民法可以處理齁那所以如果除我們也可以再跟這個地政司再研究一下說有沒有其他的這個印記載負責有沒有預防的措施因為我們明明知道有這麼多的問題有沒有預防的措施\n\n09:46.358 --> 09:59.615\n這個部分我們可以再跟地政司再討論一下就是說在應記載跟不得記載事項的一些法規範上面地政司市長在旁邊嗎對在做一些處理那這個討論要多久的時間基本上的話部分就像\n\n10:00.939 --> 10:18.326\n已經有公平法可以做處理所以我們現在比較著重的是在於執行面的部分所以像縣市政府跟消保處我們都有在做聯合稽查定期的聯合稽查你現在講的是執行面嘛我現在問的是明明知道會有這麼多的問題有沒有預防面的做法怎麼去預防這個問題有沒有這樣子的一個做法\n\n10:23.659 --> 10:49.151\n我們可能會如果法制面要加強的話我們可能會把一些常見的違規太陽整理出來給那個建設業者來做參考但我覺得應該是不要等到事情發生之後我們才來做處置而是明明就知道有這麼多問題剛剛處長也特別提到說針對這個獎勵停車空間改裝成公設事實上有非常多這樣的案件明知道有這麼多的案件是不是可以我們給一些做一些預防的措施讓這樣的案件不要再一直產生\n\n10:50.748 --> 11:17.607\n再跟小寶處這邊討論一下那最後請教一下部長喔部長請問一下就是有關公寓大廈公設的點交喔雖然有公寓大廈管理條例第57條的規範但是呢常常會因為這樣子公設導致就是遲至幾年都沒有完成移交那這個部分也妨礙整個社區的發展所以請問部長為了避免一再發生這一個這個點交的僵局喔\n\n11:18.147 --> 11:32.594\n內政部有沒有什麼更穩妥的方法可以來去處理目前的機制確實像委員所關心的部分目前的機制這樣子長久以來所累積的部分確實我們沒有辦法現在的法規上面就做很好的處置\n\n11:33.795 --> 11:53.170\n那尤其是剛有提到說公寓大廈裡面有很多建商他們的所佔的這個比例比較高的狀況之下有的時候就是求援兼裁判那所以對於單一的購買的這個買家的話呢他可能會有遭受到這樣的困擾那所以呢我們希望能夠用這個所謂的第三方機制的方式啊\n\n11:53.530 --> 12:08.307\n第一個提供樣態請大家來參考第二個呢看能不能導入其他的輔導的方式來協助就是受到這個點交然後沒有辦法完成這個居住品質上面的困擾的這些人但是事實上確實不容易\n\n12:08.507 --> 12:22.708\n因為按照現在的公寓大廈管理條例的管委會的行程通常在尤其是第一屆的時候管委會裡面的行程大概建商居多那這一點的從事困擾我們相當多所以我們現在的機制大概就是以比如說你請\n\n12:24.130 --> 12:51.686\n他在契約上面把他寫清楚那如果沒有按照契約走的時候那可能要以這個民事訴訟的方式來解決那這個又是曠日廢時啦那所以就是會產生惡性循環這個可能我們目前碰到相當大的挑戰在這邊我想請部長因為部長大概都知道問題在哪裡啊所以是不是請部長針對這個部分針對內政部的我們的各處的大家還有消保處這邊大家可以共同來去研究要如何去預防\n\n12:52.106 --> 12:56.834\n这样子的一个点交出现了这么多的僵局来保障我们的消费者谢谢\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.104,"end":10.569,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳興修署長劉部長 吳署長有請部長好 雙好本席要請教的是有關我們這次的300億元中央擴大租金補貼的專案計畫因為這個計畫本來是從111年到114年 4年的計畫"},{"start":28.684,"end":58.047,"text":"那在去年就決定要延長到115年那當然我想不管是對於我們租族的補助從當時在政府的時候的12萬戶到50萬戶到現在賴政府的時候到75萬戶其實要租金補貼給我們的這些弱勢族群或是一些年輕人我們覺得是利益良善我們也都全部都支持不過剛剛講到當時的說法是由中央主辦不需要地方任何的配合款"},{"start":58.727,"end":77.044,"text":"那中央直接發給這個租屋主那這些白紙黑字目前還寫在行政院的新聞稿上也還在行政院的網站上面而113年8月的時候核定的修正版本延續這個政策到115年那現在因為"},{"start":78.045,"end":91.216,"text":"你們今年發出這樣一個公文之後引起地方的整個的大反彈喔就是當時是說好中央要全額負擔現在就反悔要地方出錢我們可以看一下下一頁我們可以看到在114從111年開始"},{"start":94.478,"end":111.935,"text":"扩大为300亿元的这个租屋补贴的方案到114年我们可以看到既然是说好的要由中央全额补助现在却要地方政府负担一定的比例请问是部长您做的决定还是我们卓荣泰院长做的决定"},{"start":113.055,"end":136.709,"text":"報告委員我想我們是依據那個貴院所通過的財政收支劃分法然後行政院的主計處要求我們在租金補貼上面的要跟地方政府來做一下不管是未來的比例的分配上面所以我們才會有這樣的公文那剛剛有跟委員報告過最主要是地方政府他們要籌編下一年度預算的時候需要我們用公文告知他們所以我們就在"},{"start":137.729,"end":166.001,"text":"6月12號的時候國土署把公文發出去給各縣市地方政府對 部長我們在推動這樣的一個社會福利的政策的時候要片面的片根照理說是要先跟地方政府溝通不過剛從您回答徐信穎委員講的你們是告知地方政府而不是跟地方政府溝通喔所以這個部分請問你們有事前溝通我們不知道嗎我們在今年年初的時候有跟地方政府先做告知我想請署長跟您回應就是告知嗎 而不是溝通嗎"},{"start":166.721,"end":195.47,"text":"也跟我們報告因為我們每一季都有定期的這個住宅租金補貼的一個檢討會議我們在今年主計總署通知我們以後我們就在檢討會議裡面都有告知所有的縣市政府可能要面對重點是要告知他們有這個狀況因為財政收支劃分法準確上路的時間我們當時都還不知道但是必須要讓地方政府有預言預念的空間那現在財政收支劃分法會在115年上路嗎是"},{"start":196.45,"end":200.091,"text":"對那現在主計處他們在編列115年的經費事實上有已經出來要怎麼來這個部分要怎麼來編列嗎還沒有確定對還沒有確定那你現在就要地方說我要刪減你多少可是他預為因應因為他如果不預為因應到最後如果真的產生分配的話那請問他要怎麼預為因應"},{"start":215.096,"end":233.509,"text":"因為明年到底要給他們多少是會依照我們立法院的決議來去做但是他要送給議會的必須要有這個項目他先保留這個項目的話到時候不管出來的結果他總有一個科目但是如果現在完全不做的話你們這個公文給各縣市政府縣市政府是說沒問題我們全力來支持還是大部分的縣市政府都反彈"},{"start":241.994,"end":262.52,"text":"說明一下因為我們上禮拜發出去那其實也是跟我們報告是因為六都有五都已經都打電話來了因為他必須要這樣做那也就是說大家在行政作業上都要有一個預為作業的空間存在我們來看一下那個地方補助的這個自籌款你可以看一下新北市是30%台北市40%台中市30%雲林縣是10%你可以看到台中市其實是高達21.77億元"},{"start":271.463,"end":274.587,"text":"那但是呢根據我們今年剛剛說要刪減這個我們一般性補助款636億那各縣市這個會被刪減的金額以台中市就被刪減32.4億你在這個地方又要叫他自籌21.4億"},{"start":287.623,"end":312.597,"text":"七七億然後包括雲林縣來說你要他三減三十七點六億這個地方又要他這個自籌五千六百六十四億元雲林縣是屬於五級的財政的縣市喔所以他要他籌這五千多五千六百六十四萬元再加上你們三減他的三十七點六億元這不但是這個一幾年他撥了好多層皮你知道嗎這是兩個不同年度的因為我們今年的租金補貼都沒有變"},{"start":315.919,"end":321.583,"text":"我們知道現在是115年的租金補貼支酬以後地方政府會增加收入但是會增加多少不知道嗎是嗎現在主計總署有出來他會依照我們的立法會的決議嗎我們實在是有時候對這個真的沒有信心啊所以跟我們報告為什麼地方政府會需要我們發這個公示他起碼有這個項目有這個科目在那如果是這樣的話為什麼地方政府會反彈呢"},{"start":341.418,"end":346.32,"text":"所以我才會想說首長可能不了解事務上的作業首長可能不了解因為今天來邀請的都是行政單位是行政單位來我覺得如果溝通好的話應該是縣市長應該是會樂觀傾城你這個財化法都已經要多給我縣市政府那麼多錢了"},{"start":361.525,"end":364.429,"text":"那我可以負擔一部分那實務上就是因為沒有溝通好嘛這跟好像半路被土匪這個來入場那種感覺一樣行政單位有沒有跟首長去溝通我想他們其實都心理上都有準備現在應該不是推給地方而是你這個計畫本來就是到114年就是都有全部中央買單"},{"start":381.309,"end":393.461,"text":"然後現在延長到115年那是不是就可以用這樣的方式這90億就由我們的中央來處理因為這是一個政策嘛這個政策的延續就是這樣而且包括你可能會講說這90億要怎麼來其實我記得你們在刪減這個地方的一般性補助款636億的時候你們也建議地方說可以去舉債啊"},{"start":403.931,"end":406.192,"text":"我想這是114跟115我們也沒有去講過因為這個不是一般性補助款的項目不是因為租金補貼不在一般性補助款我知道啊但是我的意思就是說當時你們都可以說沒錢你們可以去舉債啊"},{"start":421.016,"end":435.439,"text":"那這時候其實中央政府我覺得也可以把這個到115年的這個租金補貼的這個利益良善的政策把它完備而不是說現在本來大家都覺得很好而且一直都是中央請客中央買單"},{"start":436.48,"end":452.004,"text":"現在忽然要中央請客地方買單而且是在最後的一年延長的一年不是只有地方買單中央還是負責最大的部分那我們只是回到110年前地方政府原來你們已經負擔了四年了在最後一年卻做這樣其實我覺得對你們是相當不利那最後的時間我想要來請教一下再請我們行政院的消保處中處長"},{"start":468.104,"end":483.278,"text":"我想再請教一下就是其實我們在這個建築業我們在建築業跟房仲業者會促銷房屋的時候我們可以看到會有不同的方式來製作廣告包括說宣稱有劇院啦有宴會KTV啦"},{"start":484.679,"end":509.049,"text":"遊戲區等公共的設施但等設施空間申請的用途常常都是用梯間或停車空間那已經涉及變更使用然後建案廣告於事實不符導致買方對產品產生錯誤的了解也違反了公平交易法第21條也不實廣告之嫌可以處罰五萬元以上兩千五百萬以下的罰還限時改善會改善者還可以連續處罰所以請問處長"},{"start":511.83,"end":539.081,"text":"現行的法規對於不實廣告是以處罰罰還為主喔但對很多人來說買房子是人生的大事所以他們其實在買房子的時候公設比還有他們公設的這個到底休閒公設有多少也是他們買的一個重點那所以如果在這個時候就是公設違法或者是未完工要如何進行點交這樣的消費爭議其實相當的多那請問消保處有沒有什麼具體的預防措施"},{"start":540.001,"end":563.247,"text":"原則上如果是像這個公設違法的狀況這個依照公平法我們可能就會把查到有相關的案件我們除了跟主管機關說以後我們還是會去跟那個公平會來說明那公平會這種案子呢在裁罰案子上其實是非常多的對我查到的資料也是在獎勵停車空間改裝作為公設使用的案件非常多那請問一下消保處這邊有什麼具體的作為嗎"},{"start":565.908,"end":582.604,"text":"我們原則上是這樣齁 我們一方面我們也會跟這個內政部會去做一些聯合的查核啦 在查核面那法規面的部分呢 因為目前有公民法可以處理齁那所以 如果除 我們也可以再跟這個地政司再研究一下說有沒有其他的這個印記載負責有沒有預防的措施 因為我們明明知道有這麼多的問題 有沒有預防的措施"},{"start":586.358,"end":599.615,"text":"這個部分我們可以再跟地政司再討論一下就是說在應記載跟不得記載事項的一些法規範上面地政司市長在旁邊嗎對 在做一些處理那這個討論要多久的時間基本上的話部分就像"},{"start":600.939,"end":618.326,"text":"已經有公平法可以做處理所以我們現在比較著重的是在於執行面的部分所以像縣市政府跟消保處我們都有在做聯合稽查定期的聯合稽查你現在講的是執行面嘛我現在問的是明明知道會有這麼多的問題有沒有預防面的做法怎麼去預防這個問題有沒有這樣子的一個做法"},{"start":623.659,"end":649.151,"text":"我們可能會如果法制面要加強的話我們可能會把一些常見的違規太陽整理出來給那個建設業者來做參考但我覺得應該是不要等到事情發生之後我們才來做處置而是明明就知道有這麼多問題剛剛處長也特別提到說針對這個獎勵停車空間改裝成公設事實上有非常多這樣的案件明知道有這麼多的案件是不是可以我們給一些做一些預防的措施讓這樣的案件不要再一直產生"},{"start":650.748,"end":677.607,"text":"再跟小寶處這邊討論一下那最後請教一下部長喔部長 請問一下就是有關公寓大廈公設的點交喔雖然有公寓大廈管理條例第57條的規範但是呢 常常會因為這樣子公設導致就是遲至幾年都沒有完成移交那這個部分也妨礙整個社區的發展所以請問部長為了避免一再發生這一個這個點交的僵局喔"},{"start":678.147,"end":692.594,"text":"內政部有沒有什麼更穩妥的方法可以來去處理目前的機制確實像委員所關心的部分目前的機制這樣子長久以來所累積的部分確實我們沒有辦法現在的法規上面就做很好的處置"},{"start":693.795,"end":713.17,"text":"那尤其是剛有提到說公寓大廈裡面有很多建商他們的所佔的這個比例比較高的狀況之下有的時候就是求援兼裁判那所以對於單一的購買的這個買家的話呢他可能會有遭受到這樣的困擾那所以呢我們希望能夠用這個所謂的第三方機制的方式啊"},{"start":713.53,"end":728.307,"text":"第一個提供樣態請大家來參考第二個呢看能不能導入其他的輔導的方式來協助就是受到這個點交然後沒有辦法完成這個居住品質上面的困擾的這些人但是事實上確實不容易"},{"start":728.507,"end":742.708,"text":"因為按照現在的公寓大廈管理條例的管委會的行程通常在 尤其是第一屆的時候管委會裡面的行程大概建商居多那這一點的從事困擾我們相當多所以我們現在的機制大概就是以比如說你請"},{"start":744.13,"end":771.686,"text":"他在契約上面把他寫清楚那如果沒有按照契約走的時候那可能要以這個民事訴訟的方式來解決那這個又是曠日廢時啦那所以就是會產生惡性循環這個可能我們目前碰到相當大的挑戰在這邊我想請部長 因為部長大概都知道問題在哪裡啊所以是不是請部長針對這個部分針對內政部的我們的各處的大家還有消保處這邊大家可以共同來去研究要如何去預防"},{"start":772.106,"end":776.834,"text":"这样子的一个点交出现了这么多的僵局来保障我们的消费者谢谢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":738,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時46分）謝謝主席，我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳欣修署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好、署長好。本席要請教有關這次300億元中央擴大租金補貼的專案計畫，因為這個計畫本來是從111年到114年4年的計畫，去年就決定要延長到115年，我想不管是對於租屋族的補助，從當時蔡政府時候的12萬戶到50萬戶，到現在賴政府的75萬戶，其實租金補貼給弱勢族群或是一些年輕人，我們覺得是立意良善，也都全部支持。不過剛剛講到，當時的說法是由中央主辦，不需要地方任何的配合款，中央直接發給租屋族，這些白紙黑字目前還寫在行政院的新聞稿上，也還在行政院的網站上面。113年8月核定的修正版本延續這個政策到115年，因為你們今年發出這樣的公文之後，引起地方大反彈，當時說好中央要全額負擔，現在卻反悔，要地方出錢。","我們可以看一下簡報，從111年開始擴大為300億元的租屋補貼方案到114年，我們可以看到，既然說好要由中央全額補助，現在卻要地方政府負擔一定的比例，請問是部長做的決定還是卓榮泰院長做的決定？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們是依據貴院所通過的財政收支劃分法，然後行政院主計處要求我們在租金補貼上面要跟地方政府來做一下未來比例的分配，所以我們才會有這樣的公文。剛剛有跟委員報告過，最主要是地方政府要籌備下一年度預算的時候需要我們用公文告知他們，所以6月12號國土署就把公文發出去給各縣市地方政府。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，你們在推動這樣的社會福利政策要片面變更，照理說要先跟地方政府溝通，不過剛剛從您回答徐欣瑩委員所講的，你們是告知地方政府，而不是跟地方政府溝通。請問這個部分你們有事前溝通，而我們不知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們在今年年初的時候有跟地方政府先告知，我想請署長跟您回應。"],["許委員宇甄：那是告知而不是溝通！"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為我們每一季都有定期的住宅租金補貼檢討會議，今年主計總處通知我們以後，我們就在檢討會議裡面告知所有的縣市政府，可能要面對……"],["許委員宇甄：對，就是告知而不是溝通！"],["吳署長欣修：重點是要告知他們有這個狀況，因為當時我們還不知道財政收支劃分法準確上路的時間，但是必須要讓地方政府有預留因應的空間……"],["許委員宇甄：那現在財政收支劃分法會在115年上路？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["許委員宇甄：對，現在主計總處在編列115年的經費，已經知道要怎麼編列了嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：還沒有確定。"],["許委員宇甄：還沒有確定，那你現在就跟地方說要刪減多少、要他們編明年的經費？"],["吳署長欣修：他們要預為因應，如果他們不預為因應，到最後如果真的產生分配的話……"],["許委員宇甄：請問它要怎麼預為因應？"],["吳署長欣修：預為因應就是……"],["許委員宇甄：明年到底要給他們多少，是依照立法院的決議來做這樣的補助。"],["吳署長欣修：但送給議會的預算中必須要有這個項目，若先保留這個項目，屆時不管結果為何總會有一個科目；如果現在完全不做的話，就沒有那個科目可以因應了。"],["許委員宇甄：你們給各縣市政府的公文，縣市政府是說沒問題，全力支持，還是大部分的縣市政府都反彈？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，在我們上禮拜發出去後，六都已經有五都打電話來了，因為必須要這樣做。也就是大家在行政作業上，必須有預為作業的空間存在……"],["許委員宇甄：我們來看一下地方補助的自籌款。新北市是30%，臺北市40%，臺中市30%，雲林縣10%，其中臺中市高達21.77億元。根據今年所要刪減的一般性補助款636億來說，各縣市會被刪減的金額中，臺中市被刪減32.4億，然後你又要叫它自籌21.77億？像雲林縣補助款被刪減37.6億，然後這裡又要它自籌5,664萬元？雲林縣是屬於五級財政縣市，要它自籌5,664萬元，再加上你們所刪減的37.6億元，這是一頭牛被剝了好多層皮，你知道嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：這是兩個不同年度的！因為今年的租金補貼都沒有變，那是明年的！"],["許委員宇甄：我知道一個是114年，一個是115年的，現在是115年的租金補貼自籌。"],["吳署長欣修：在財劃法實施以後，地方政府會增加收入。"],["許委員宇甄：但會增加多少？不知道，是嗎？主計總處會依照立法院的決議做嗎？實在是……有時候我們對這個真的沒有信心。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，為什麼地方政府會需要我們發公文？因為起碼有這個項目在、有這個科目在，大家才不會措手不及！"],["許委員宇甄：如果是這樣的話，為什麼地方政府會反彈呢？"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才會說可能是首長不了解實務作業……"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得事前的溝通不足……"],["吳署長欣修：首長可能不了解！因為今天提要求的都是行政單位……"],["許委員宇甄：署長，如果溝通好的話，縣市長應該會樂觀其成，不會這樣。畢竟財劃法已經要多給縣市政府那麼多錢了，所以可以負擔一部分……"],["吳署長欣修：實務上……"],["許委員宇甄：實務上就是沒有溝通好嘛！這跟半路被土匪攔路搶劫的感覺是一樣的！"],["吳署長欣修：看地方行政單位有沒有跟首長溝通，我想他們心裡上其實都有準備了。"],["許委員宇甄：現在不是推給地方，而是這個計畫本來就到114年，且全部由中央買單！現在要延長到115年，所以是不是可以用這樣的方式，也就是這90億就由中央處理？因為這是政策，政策的延續就是這樣！"],["吳署長欣修：這部分還有待……"],["許委員宇甄：你可能會說這90億怎麼來？我記得你們在刪減636億的地方一般性補助款時，也建議地方可以舉債，對不對？你們建議地方可以去舉債……"],["吳署長欣修：這是114年跟115年，我們也沒有講過，因為這不是一般性補助款的項目。"],["許委員宇甄：這是選項之一吧？"],["吳署長欣修：不是！租金補貼不在一般性補助款、不在裡面……"],["許委員宇甄：當然不是一般性補助款，我知道。我的意思是，當時你們都說沒錢可以舉債，所以中央政府其實也可以把延到115年租金補貼這個利益良善的政策完備。大家都覺得這個政策很好，而且一直都是中央請客、中央買單，現在忽然要中央請客、地方買單，還是在最後的一年……"],["吳署長欣修：不是中央……"],["許委員宇甄：延長的一年……"],["吳署長欣修：不是只有地方買單，中央還是負責最大的部分。我們只是回到110年以前，由地方政府……"],["許委員宇甄：對，但是在最後一年……原來你們已經負擔了四年，在最後一年卻這樣做，我覺得對你們來說相當不利！"],["吳署長欣修：應該回到110年以前，地方政府是有責任的……"],["許委員宇甄：最後一點時間我想請教行政院消保處鍾處長。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：你好。我想再請教，建築業跟房仲業者在促銷房屋時，可以看到以不同方式所製作的廣告，如宣稱有劇院、有宴會廳、KTV、兒童遊戲區等公共設施。但等空間申請用途完成後發現，常常都占用樓梯間或停車空間，涉及變更使用，且建案廣告與事實不符，導致買方對產品產生錯誤了解，違反公平交易法第二十一條有不實廣告之嫌，可處罰五萬元以上兩千五百萬以下罰鍰，並限時改善，未改善者可連續處罰。請問處長，現行法規對不實廣告以處罰罰鍰為主，但對很多人來說，買房子是人生大事，所以買房時公設比及休閒公設有多少也是買的重點，因此，如果公設違法或未完工要如何進行點交？這類的消費爭議其實相當多，請問消保處有沒有什麼具體的預防措施？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：原則上，像公設違法的狀況，依照公平法規定，我們會把查到的相關案件報主管機關外，也會向公平會說明，而公平會對這類案子的裁罰其實非常多。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我查到的資料也是這樣，譬如停車空間改裝作為公設使用的案件非常多，請問消保處對此有什麼具體作為？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：原則上，我們一方面會跟內政部聯合查核，這是查核面；至於法規面，目前有公平法可以處理，不過我們可以再跟地政司研究一下，看有沒有其他的應記載、不得記載事項，還可以再……"],["許委員宇甄：有沒有預防措施？明明知道有這麼多問題，所以有沒有預防措施？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：這部分我們可以再跟地政司討論。也就是在應記載跟不得記載事項……"],["許委員宇甄：司長就在旁邊！"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：對，再做一些處理。"],["許委員宇甄：討論要多久時間？"],["林司長家正：基本上已經有公平法可以處理，所以我們現在比較著重在執行面部分。因此，我們與縣市政府跟消保處都有在做定期的聯合稽查……"],["許委員宇甄：你講的是執行面，我現在問的是明明知道有這麼多問題，你們有沒有預防面的作法？怎麼預防這個問題？有沒有這樣的作法？"],["林司長家正：如果法制面要加強的話，我們可能會把一些常見的違規態樣整理出來，給業者參考。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得不要等到事情發生之後才來處置！而且明明已經知道有這麼多問題，剛剛處長也特別提到，有非常多把獎勵停車空間改裝成公設的案件。明知道有這麼多的案件，所以是不是應該提出一些預防措施，讓這樣的案件不要一直產生？"],["林司長家正：我們再跟消保處討論一下。"],["許委員宇甄：最後請教部長。有關公寓大廈公設的點交，雖然有公寓大廈管理條例第五十七條作為規範，卻也常常因公設問題而遲至幾年都沒有完成移交，也妨礙整個社區的發展。請問部長，為避免一再發生點交僵局，內政部有沒有什麼更穩妥的方法可處理，以保障消費者？"],["劉部長世芳：依照目前的機制，確實像委員所關心的，這是長久以來所累積的問題，我們確實沒有辦法在現行法規上做很好的處置。剛剛也提到公寓大廈管委會在建商占比較高的狀況下，有時候會球員兼裁判，對單一購買的買家來說不免受此困擾，所以我們希望能夠透過第三方機制來處理：第一個提供樣態，請大家來參考；第二個，看能不能導入其他輔導的方式來協助點交，改善居住品質。事實上這確實不容易，但現行公寓大廈管委會的形成，尤其是第一屆管委會的形成大概以建商居多，而這點總是造成困擾，所以現在的機制就是在契約上寫清楚，若未能依照契約走，則以民事訴訟的方式解決，但此舉曠日費時，也會產生惡性循環，這是我們目前所碰到相當大的挑戰。"],["許委員宇甄：部長知道問題在哪裡，所以請部長針對這部分、針對內政部各處及消保處，大家共同研究，看如何預防點交所出現的諸多僵局，以保障消費者，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。報告委員會，我們中午不休息。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-26","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","黃建賓","李柏毅","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李坤城","謝龍介","黃國昌","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃健豪","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長就「公寓大廈公設點交爭議及其處理與預防作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、「住宅法」：(一)繼續審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法\n第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(三)繼續審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查\n委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)繼續審查委員賴士葆等17人\n擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、( 六) 繼續審查委員牛煦庭等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(八)繼續審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 九) 繼續審查委員羅智強等16 人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)繼續審查委\n員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十二)繼續審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具\n「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案、(十三)繼續審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部\n分條文修正草案」案、( 十四) 繼續審查委員李坤城等24 人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(十五)繼續審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)繼續審查委\n員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十七)繼續審查委員高金素梅等27人擬\n具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法\n第二條條文修正草案」案、(十九)繼續審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 繼續審查委員林倩綺等23 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(二十一)審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)審查委員\n陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、( 二十四) 審查委員許宇甄等20 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二十五)審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十六)審查委員\n林月琴等19人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十七)審查委員楊曜等22人擬具「住宅法\n第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二十八)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十五條\n及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(二十九)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(三十)審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十一)審查\n委員蘇巧慧等17 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 三十二) 審查委員羅明才等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十三)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「住宅法增訂第四條之\n一條文草案」案、(三十四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十九條及第二十條條\n文修正草案」案、(三十五)審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三\n十六)審查委員游顥等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十七)審查委員羅智強等\n16人擬具「住宅法第四十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(三十八)審查委員葉元之等19人擬\n具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案【進行專題報告及詢答，並宣讀住宅法第 ( 二十一) 案至第\n(三十八)案提案條文】","agenda_id":"1146201_00015"}}}