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\"start\": 215.409, \"end\": 215.629, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 215.629, \"end\": 216.01, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 216.01, \"end\": 216.57, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 216.57, \"end\": 216.711, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 216.711, \"end\": 217.111, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 217.111, \"end\": 217.251, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 217.251, \"end\": 217.331, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 217.331, \"end\": 217.732, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 217.732, \"end\": 217.832, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 217.832, \"end\": 217.892, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 217.892, \"end\": 218.052, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"雇\", \"start\": 218.052, \"end\": 218.212, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 218.212, \"end\": 218.473, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 218.473, \"end\": 218.993, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 218.993, \"end\": 219.474, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 219.474, \"end\": 219.594, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 219.594, \"end\": 219.714, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 219.714, \"end\": 219.974, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 219.974, \"end\": 220.074, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 220.074, \"end\": 220.094, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}]}, {\"start\": 221.656, \"end\": 235.977, \"text\": \"那當然如果要從雇主來負擔的話那這部分可能會遇到的的整體的在產業上面的阻力會比較大那如果是從政府來負擔的話確實現在整體現在政府尤其是菜花法修訂\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 221.656, \"end\": 221.776, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 221.776, \"end\": 221.977, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"遇\", \"start\": 224.641, \"end\": 224.801, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 224.801, \"end\": 225.041, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 225.041, \"end\": 225.983, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 225.983, \"end\": 226.463, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 226.463, \"end\": 226.824, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 226.824, \"end\": 228.146, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 228.146, \"end\": 228.867, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 228.867, \"end\": 228.987, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 228.987, \"end\": 229.087, \"score\": 0.634}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 229.087, \"end\": 229.207, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"阻\", \"start\": 229.207, \"end\": 229.368, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 229.368, \"end\": 229.588, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 229.588, \"end\": 229.828, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 229.828, \"end\": 230.389, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 230.389, \"end\": 230.529, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 230.529, \"end\": 230.649, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 230.649, \"end\": 230.75, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 230.75, \"end\": 231.07, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 231.07, \"end\": 231.21, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 231.21, \"end\": 231.891, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 231.891, \"end\": 232.031, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 232.031, \"end\": 232.773, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 232.773, \"end\": 233.153, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 233.153, \"end\": 233.934, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 233.934, \"end\": 234.135, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 234.135, \"end\": 234.375, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 234.375, \"end\": 235.096, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 235.096, \"end\": 235.236, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 235.236, \"end\": 235.356, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 235.356, \"end\": 235.477, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"菜\", \"start\": 235.477, \"end\": 235.597, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 235.597, \"end\": 235.757, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 235.757, \"end\": 235.957, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 235.957, \"end\": 235.977, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}]}, {\"start\": 237.339, \"end\": 257.27, \"text\": \"修正以後的財政的狀況要來負擔這部分確實是會非常辛苦因為幾乎是每個勞工都有這個家庭照顧價所以假設以千萬的勞工來計算大家都有家庭照顧價權利的話那這個請領下去每一天的家庭照顧價我們算起來可能會是超過百億的\", \"words\": 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\"個\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 245.984, \"end\": 246.124, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 246.124, \"end\": 246.204, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 246.204, \"end\": 246.784, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 246.784, \"end\": 246.905, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 246.905, \"end\": 247.025, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 247.025, \"end\": 247.405, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 247.405, \"end\": 247.545, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 247.545, \"end\": 247.885, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 247.885, \"end\": 248.285, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 248.285, \"end\": 248.826, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 248.826, \"end\": 249.286, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 249.286, 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\"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 256.65, \"end\": 256.79, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 256.79, \"end\": 257.09, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 257.09, \"end\": 257.25, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 257.25, \"end\": 257.27, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 258.731, \"end\": 284.601, \"text\": \"那如果是7天的話那就要再乘以7所以這也是為什麼我們比較現在比較是從雲流亭的角度來去切入希望從這部分來去做來去著手讓他可以更加的彈性那因為雲流亭他的目前他的給付那六成部分會是來自於舊寶的基金在這邊比較是可以來去處理這個問題對是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 258.731, \"end\": 259.051, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 259.051, \"end\": 259.171, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 259.171, \"end\": 259.251, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 259.251, \"end\": 259.612, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 259.612, \"end\": 259.772, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 259.772, \"end\": 260.072, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 607.507, \"end\": 607.768, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 607.768, \"end\": 607.988, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 607.988, \"end\": 608.108, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 608.108, \"end\": 608.128, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 609.429, \"end\": 623.486, \"text\": \"所以如果他有一個孩子當他選擇我到底要來持續就業呢還是說我要來照顧孩子當然這個落差就非常非常的大所以如果我們不去調這個45800對於這些相對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 609.429, \"end\": 609.589, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 609.589, \"end\": 609.87, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 609.87, \"end\": 610.09, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 610.09, \"end\": 610.33, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 610.33, \"end\": 610.751, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 610.751, \"end\": 610.871, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 610.871, \"end\": 611.071, \"score\": 0.895}, 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 617.459, \"end\": 617.659, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 617.659, \"end\": 618.24, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 618.24, \"end\": 618.52, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"孩\", \"start\": 618.52, \"end\": 618.74, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 618.74, \"end\": 619.802, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 619.802, \"end\": 620.062, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 620.062, \"end\": 620.242, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 620.242, \"end\": 620.402, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 620.402, \"end\": 620.563, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 620.563, \"end\": 620.663, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 620.663, \"end\": 620.823, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 620.823, \"end\": 620.963, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 623.286, \"end\": 623.466, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 623.466, \"end\": 623.486, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}]}, {\"start\": 627.691, \"end\": 653.544, \"text\": \"高薪的這個勞動朋友來講或者是在這個勞基法裡面處理的部分就會受到蠻大的影響那剛剛我們這個所看到的這個百分比其實已經有41%是超過這個45800這樣的上去的這個級距所以我們會看到相當多的問題那第二個就是就業保險如果有失業給付當初的這個需求是為了政策上來不要讓這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 627.691, \"end\": 627.871, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"薪\", \"start\": 627.871, \"end\": 628.071, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 628.071, \"end\": 629.832, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"朋\", \"start\": 629.832, \"end\": 630.012, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 630.012, \"end\": 630.553, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 630.553, \"end\": 630.653, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 630.653, \"end\": 630.833, 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\"start\": 998.535, \"end\": 998.555, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"師\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,802 --> 00:00:02,423\n王振旭委員質詢花便當喔肚子餓著趕快吃飯好謝謝主席謝謝蘇昭偉我們還是請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:28,092 --> 00:00:50,911\n部長好聽了剛剛很多很多的意見我想部長也知道大家的期待是在哪裡我就用兩個議題來跟部長來討論第一個就是有關於有心彈性育嬰架的研議規劃的進度第二部分呢是不是能夠考慮來提高及擴大育嬰流停給父的可能\n\n3\n00:00:51,571 --> 00:01:12,077\n那剛剛趙委還有其他委員希望能不能夠把這個目前規劃中的八成這樣的替代能夠補好補滿那當然很多的議題也需要透過這樣的方式來討論的同時也希望也知道這個方向可以往那邊走\n\n4\n00:01:13,257 --> 00:01:29,997\n那其實過去我也很多次跟部長討論過有關於這個有性彈性照顧假的研議的規劃進度今天我們看到部長的書面報告還有剛剛早上的口頭報告裡面有提到這個事辦過程去年的這個事辦\n\n5\n00:01:30,658 --> 00:01:52,363\n有89家的事業單位來參加看到勞工的部分方面以申請三天的占最多申請大多以保母臨時有事、腸病毒的停託課、小孩子需要陪伴以及員工想要自行照顧新生兒占為主要的原因\n\n6\n00:01:53,203 --> 00:02:12,990\n那有一些是沒有提出這個申請那不提出申請的人大部分是以家庭照顧價或用其他的價別來替代而不是用我們所規劃中的這個可能的價值那雇主方面呢其中其末焦點座談會當中他們表示未來的制度如果要放寬彈性的話\n\n7\n00:02:14,471 --> 00:02:30,100\n他們擔心的是影響人力的調配跟公司的營運這個就是我們看到書面的報告那其實我們也知道在這個過程需要有更好的研議的這個可能性包括時間還有更多的面向\n\n8\n00:02:32,202 --> 00:02:59,295\n我們很期待從這個四個地方來麻煩部長能不能也讓我們知道彈性照護假是不是還是希望部長之前提到的是以日為單位有一些是希望用週或者是幾個小時那這樣的彈性的照護假是有薪呢還是部分的薪資或者是維持現在是無薪的\n\n9\n00:02:59,975 --> 00:03:18,290\n那如果是有薪不分薪資那是雇主來負擔呢還是透過社會保險的機制還是用政府的公務預算來補助那企業的排班很多企業尤其是小型的這些微型企業他們排班的配套措施未來會是如何的規劃部長\n\n10\n00:03:20,732 --> 00:03:40,094\n請就幾個方面來幫忙說明說明因為現在因為大家也在講說關於家庭照顧家的部分可是家庭照顧家目前是是沒有薪資的那如果家庭照顧家要有薪的話那這裡面就會下面的問題是要由雇主來負擔還是要由政府來負擔\n\n11\n00:03:41,656 --> 00:03:55,977\n那當然如果要從雇主來負擔的話那這部分可能會遇到的的整體的在產業上面的阻力會比較大那如果是從政府來負擔的話確實現在整體現在政府尤其是菜花法修訂\n\n12\n00:03:57,339 --> 00:04:17,270\n修正以後的財政的狀況要來負擔這部分確實是會非常辛苦因為幾乎是每個勞工都有這個家庭照顧價所以假設以千萬的勞工來計算大家都有家庭照顧價權利的話那這個請領下去每一天的家庭照顧價我們算起來可能會是超過百億的\n\n13\n00:04:18,731 --> 00:04:44,601\n那如果是7天的話那就要再乘以7所以這也是為什麼我們比較現在比較是從雲流亭的角度來去切入希望從這部分來去做來去著手讓他可以更加的彈性那因為雲流亭他的目前他的給付那六成部分會是來自於舊寶的基金在這邊比較是可以來去處理這個問題對是\n\n14\n00:04:46,742 --> 00:05:03,827\n不過剛剛林委員其實非常期待也很要求我們也知道雙薪的家庭雙就業的情形之下如果沒有這樣好的一個彈性照護的假期來使用的話相對來講就真的很難讓我們那個勺子的話\n\n15\n00:05:05,347 --> 00:05:17,897\n能夠至少這部分能夠有效的來改善這個其實林委員剛剛也非常非常的希望部長這邊能夠多用心更用心的把這個部分處理的更有效率\n\n16\n00:05:19,820 --> 00:05:48,938\n我想還是想跟跟文說明因為其實在整體的制度上面要去做到這個變革他其實要解他其實要去處理的挑戰跟關卡是真的是蠻多的包括在執行面那也包括是在財務的部分在人力的部分其實他需要涉及到的部分真的是很這也是為什麼過去其實這個議題其實談很久那當然希望能夠更進一步的去突破這件事情\n\n17\n00:05:49,398 --> 00:06:05,849\n我還是要說這不是用不用心的問題了解可是我們還是希望有策略當然除了用心以外還是需要有一個策略來推進那我們就往下來看一下提高跟擴大育嬰留庭給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給\n\n18\n00:06:11,573 --> 00:06:33,540\n那事實上我們也知道目前的這個想要研修的這個就業保險法裡面希望能夠6加1的這種來增加這個留庭的津貼來鼓勵雙親共同分擔育嬰的責任那這部分其實也是賴總統重要的政見這個經過這樣處理以後呢平均月投資的這個保障\n\n19\n00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:59,147\n這個薪資的替代率就可以達到八成那剛才我一直希望能夠把它補好補滿那當然這個會牽扯到你提到想相關的一些費用還有如何來編好這個預算不過我們如果從另外一個方向來看的話其實目前我們所看到的這個即使最高的這個替代率的八成是透過\n\n20\n00:07:00,988 --> 00:07:15,791\n我們目前的45800乘以八成這樣的薪資來做一個給付的一個他的這個所有的費用那到目前為止我們從這個就業保險的人數來看的話超過這個費用45800這個上限的佔了41%意思就是說這樣的需求似乎我們需要能夠針對這個級距來做一些調控\n\n21\n00:07:29,332 --> 00:07:33,614\n那依照這個新勞退的薪資的統計的話超過這個45800是占了33.4%那平均的這些提繳的這個工資已經達到46000\n\n22\n00:07:46,486 --> 00:08:04,373\n928人也都比這個45800高那我們再看下一個數據可以看到就是如果以這個可能在生育的年齡當中如果是25歲到40歲的話那男性的這些平均落差這個45800以上的其實是超過1萬元\n\n23\n00:08:06,994 --> 00:08:33,705\n30歲以上的話也會更明顯一些那可是女性到44歲都沒有辦法達到這樣的費用那表示說未來如果我們要鼓勵性平能夠同時來照顧這個新生兒的話未來在男性跟女性當中還是會有落差因為男性的薪資相對就比較高一些那如果從這個另外一個角度來看這個就業保險\n\n24\n00:08:34,585 --> 00:09:00,917\n目前有將近自願投保者就是自僱自營自僱的這些人數佔了將近5%那這些人其實是無法在這個過程裡面去領用到這樣的這個替代的這種八成的這個機會所以對於某一些的自僱自營的人他是無法受這個非受僱者就沒有辦法領到這一筆費用所以造成的問題其實是蠻多元的\n\n25\n00:09:01,497 --> 00:09:25,117\n所以如果我們用現在那個就業保險給付的這個制度來看的話事實上是真的會有出現下一個一些問題就是就保來綁這個勞保那當然就擔心如果我們把這個剛剛講的45800的上限提升以後可能就會導致這個勞保財務的負擔會突然大量的這種提高之下就沒有辦法\n\n26\n00:09:26,078 --> 00:09:46,533\n把這個45800的這個上限打開那45800的上限沒有辦法打開的話以我在這個醫院所看到的我們的住院醫師為例我們住院醫師如果是女性住院醫師或男性住院醫師平均的一些薪資目前在私立的醫院差不多是10萬到12萬元的薪資\n\n27\n00:09:47,489 --> 00:10:08,128\n那如果是公立的醫院他可能是在六萬多將近七萬到九萬之間當他去生孩子的時候如果他因為要生孩子以後他想要請假的話那他的能夠抖到八成的這個替代率那八成的替代率最高性是四五八零零其實才三萬多\n\n28\n00:10:09,429 --> 00:10:23,486\n所以如果他有一個孩子當他選擇我到底要來持續就業呢還是說我要來照顧孩子當然這個落差就非常非常的大所以如果我們不去調這個45800對於這些相對\n\n29\n00:10:27,691 --> 00:10:53,544\n高薪的這個勞動朋友來講或者是在這個勞基法裡面處理的部分就會受到蠻大的影響那剛剛我們這個所看到的這個百分比其實已經有41%是超過這個45800這樣的上去的這個級距所以我們會看到相當多的問題那第二個就是就業保險如果有失業給付當初的這個需求是為了政策上來不要讓這個\n\n30\n00:10:55,385 --> 00:11:15,213\n太多的人是故意來領這個失業金這是有他的需求可是如果我們持續這樣綁定的話呢其實是有在政策上是有一些問題的那另外如果因為劉婷的津貼會和這個托老薪資急劇綁定的很太實的話剛剛所提到誘因其實是受影響的\n\n31\n00:11:16,133 --> 00:11:40,289\n那另外就是有關身份上這些會變成一定要有受雇者才能請領的話那剛左提到的那些自營者事實上也會被受到影響他是無法來請領這些費用所以我們想要跟部長再繼續討論的就是我們有沒有辦法來提高跟擴大育嬰留庭的幾乎的可能性\n\n32\n00:11:41,189 --> 00:12:06,046\n就是包括這些就是老保跟舊保的脫鉤來打開這個舊保限制的上限就是我們其實好幾次都有跟部長討論過這個問題另外就是育嬰留艇的津貼不綁舊保的話就是用六成的這個舊保的部分是不是能夠跟其他的兩成一樣都改為公務補助這樣就可以打開這方面的限制\n\n33\n00:12:06,886 --> 00:12:25,957\n那當然直接墊高衛福部未滿兩歲的育兒津貼也是另外一種方式其實最重要我們期待的就是成立新的這個親子照護保險或基金來處理就是把現在在勞工朋友所受到的限制呢有沒有將來用不同的方式來做處理\n\n34\n00:12:26,957 --> 00:12:40,745\n那當然這個就需要到行政院的層級一起來共同跨部會來討論所以將來部長在跟這個行政院那邊討論的時候因為今年剛好又是我國少子化對策計畫在114年\n\n35\n00:12:43,446 --> 00:13:07,584\n今年這個計畫就會結束了所以就會啟動下一波有關於少子化的對策我是不是可以透過這樣的方式能夠讓整體的這些跨部會的想法也麻煩部長能夠主動的來把這些想法能夠提供給行政院來做參考那各位請部長針對這樣的想法能不能夠提供意見給我們做參考\n\n36\n00:13:09,475 --> 00:13:37,084\n跟委員報告就是委員提到我們的舊保的投保薪資上限45800的這個部分那主要是我們舊保他是一個社會保險那他目的是在保障我們這個被保險人在失業或者是在育嬰留子停薪期間的基本生活的經濟安全所以我們投保薪資有所謂的上限跟下限那目前我們領育嬰留子停薪津貼的平均投保薪資大概是在三萬六千塊錢\n\n37\n00:13:38,104 --> 00:13:56,645\n所以它是可以涵蓋大部分運營流停的人所以另外就是我們也用兩層來加強它的經濟補助另外委員提到說有沒有辦法脫鉤的部分就業保險它的保險給付很多包括事業給付\n\n38\n00:13:57,726 --> 00:14:17,044\n那投保薪資上限如果打開的話那拉高了以後就會連帶的把失業幾戶的合戶的金額因為他是六成嘛也會提高所以對於勞工在重返職場的意願的可能性會不會受到影響的這個可能性我們也必須要來考量\n\n39\n00:14:18,305 --> 00:14:43,274\n所以這一些就是要再考量到說因為他是放在社會保險放在就業保險裡面的一個限制所以沒有辦法單從雲林流停津貼這個部分來看那另外就是委員有提到說能不能增加救保的投保身份讓自營作業者也進來的這個部分那當然現在救保的投保的對象現在是受僱勞工\n\n40\n00:14:45,035 --> 00:15:02,335\n主要是要來保障這些勞工遭遇非失業離職的時候他的經濟生活安全那我們是考量到自營作業者他因為工作比較自主他的失業的原因比較難以認定而且在育嬰留庭的這個部分他是要跟雇主請假的\n\n41\n00:15:03,496 --> 00:15:29,241\n他沒有雇主所以也沒有辦法去請育嬰留庭假沒有辦法符合我們性供法的規定所以在有關育嬰留庭津貼的這部分即使他就算納進來他也沒有辦法來請那以上是當然我聽您這樣說明了解就是有這些限制那我們也很期待就是說如果知道問題是所在我們如何去解套\n\n42\n00:15:32,204 --> 00:15:52,261\n其實現在我們就是希望能夠去解套啦吼那但的確比方說談到說比方像雲柳亭今天如果不綁舊保開公務上面補助的部分這當然就會有公務預算裁員上面的的議題現在公務預算在裁員上面其實都是相對是是非常辛苦的\n\n43\n00:15:53,280 --> 00:16:17,828\n那對所以就是說這個薪資頭髮上限要打開他他最多的考慮點就是關於我們這整個在勞保財務上面的思考是所以才希望上一次才希望說能不能試算去推估造成的影響其實我們我們有試算了就是是會有更大的壓力的影響是\n\n44\n00:16:19,148 --> 00:16:38,555\n好那最後當然如果將來有機會到行政院討論的時候希望也把這些需求再往上提報好謝謝王正熙醫師他的健保投保是用20萬的18萬多的然後他的勞保是用45800欸差太多了對不對好謝謝王醫師\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n802\t2423\t王振旭委員質詢花便當喔 肚子餓著趕快吃飯好 謝謝主席 謝謝蘇昭偉我們還是請洪部長\n28092\t50911\t部長好聽了剛剛很多很多的意見我想部長也知道大家的期待是在哪裡我就用兩個議題來跟部長來討論第一個就是有關於有心彈性育嬰架的研議規劃的進度第二部分呢是不是能夠考慮來提高及擴大育嬰流停給父的可能\n51571\t72077\t那剛剛趙委還有其他委員希望能不能夠把這個目前規劃中的八成這樣的替代能夠補好補滿那當然很多的議題也需要透過這樣的方式來討論的同時也希望也知道這個方向可以往那邊走\n73257\t89997\t那其實過去我也很多次跟部長討論過有關於這個有性彈性照顧假的研議的規劃進度今天我們看到部長的書面報告還有剛剛早上的口頭報告裡面有提到這個事辦過程去年的這個事辦\n90658\t112363\t有89家的事業單位來參加看到勞工的部分方面以申請三天的占最多申請大多以保母臨時有事、腸病毒的停託課、小孩子需要陪伴以及員工想要自行照顧新生兒占為主要的原因\n113203\t132990\t那有一些是沒有提出這個申請那不提出申請的人大部分是以家庭照顧價或用其他的價別來替代而不是用我們所規劃中的這個可能的價值那雇主方面呢其中其末焦點座談會當中他們表示未來的制度如果要放寬彈性的話\n134471\t150100\t他們擔心的是影響人力的調配跟公司的營運這個就是我們看到書面的報告那其實我們也知道在這個過程需要有更好的研議的這個可能性包括時間還有更多的面向\n152202\t179295\t我們很期待從這個四個地方來麻煩部長能不能也讓我們知道彈性照護假是不是還是希望部長之前提到的是以日為單位有一些是希望用週或者是幾個小時那這樣的彈性的照護假是有薪呢還是部分的薪資或者是維持現在是無薪的\n179975\t198290\t那如果是有薪不分薪資那是雇主來負擔呢還是透過社會保險的機制還是用政府的公務預算來補助那企業的排班很多企業尤其是小型的這些微型企業他們排班的配套措施未來會是如何的規劃部長\n200732\t220094\t請就幾個方面來幫忙說明說明因為現在因為大家也在講說關於家庭照顧家的部分可是家庭照顧家目前是是沒有薪資的那如果家庭照顧家要有薪的話那這裡面就會下面的問題是要由雇主來負擔還是要由政府來負擔\n221656\t235977\t那當然如果要從雇主來負擔的話那這部分可能會遇到的的整體的在產業上面的阻力會比較大那如果是從政府來負擔的話確實現在整體現在政府尤其是菜花法修訂\n237339\t257270\t修正以後的財政的狀況要來負擔這部分確實是會非常辛苦因為幾乎是每個勞工都有這個家庭照顧價所以假設以千萬的勞工來計算大家都有家庭照顧價權利的話那這個請領下去每一天的家庭照顧價我們算起來可能會是超過百億的\n258731\t284601\t那如果是7天的話那就要再乘以7所以這也是為什麼我們比較現在比較是從雲流亭的角度來去切入希望從這部分來去做來去著手讓他可以更加的彈性那因為雲流亭他的目前他的給付那六成部分會是來自於舊寶的基金在這邊比較是可以來去處理這個問題對是\n286742\t303827\t不過剛剛林委員其實非常期待也很要求我們也知道雙薪的家庭雙就業的情形之下如果沒有這樣好的一個彈性照護的假期來使用的話相對來講就真的很難讓我們那個勺子的話\n305347\t317897\t能夠至少這部分能夠有效的來改善這個其實林委員剛剛也非常非常的希望部長這邊能夠多用心更用心的把這個部分處理的更有效率\n319820\t348938\t我想還是想跟跟文說明因為其實在整體的制度上面要去做到這個變革他其實要解他其實要去處理的挑戰跟關卡是真的是蠻多的包括在執行面那也包括是在財務的部分在人力的部分其實他需要涉及到的部分真的是很這也是為什麼過去其實這個議題其實談很久那當然希望能夠更進一步的去突破這件事情\n349398\t365849\t我還是要說這不是用不用心的問題了解 可是我們還是希望有策略當然除了用心以外 還是需要有一個策略來推進那我們就往下來看一下提高跟擴大育嬰留庭給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給\n371573\t393540\t那事實上我們也知道目前的這個想要研修的這個就業保險法裡面希望能夠6加1的這種來增加這個留庭的津貼來鼓勵雙親共同分擔育嬰的責任那這部分其實也是賴總統重要的政見這個經過這樣處理以後呢平均月投資的這個保障\n395800\t419147\t這個薪資的替代率就可以達到八成那剛才我一直希望能夠把它補好補滿那當然這個會牽扯到你提到想相關的一些費用還有如何來編好這個預算不過我們如果從另外一個方向來看的話其實目前我們所看到的這個即使最高的這個替代率的八成是透過\n420988\t435791\t我們目前的45800乘以八成這樣的薪資來做一個給付的一個他的這個所有的費用那到目前為止我們從這個就業保險的人數來看的話超過這個費用45800這個上限的佔了41%意思就是說這樣的需求似乎我們需要能夠針對這個級距來做一些調控\n449332\t453614\t那依照這個新勞退的薪資的統計的話超過這個45800是占了33.4%那平均的這些提繳的這個工資已經達到46000\n466486\t484373\t928人也都比這個45800高那我們再看下一個數據可以看到就是如果以這個可能在生育的年齡當中如果是25歲到40歲的話那男性的這些平均落差這個45800以上的其實是超過1萬元\n486994\t513705\t30歲以上的話也會更明顯一些那可是女性到44歲都沒有辦法達到這樣的費用那表示說未來如果我們要鼓勵性平能夠同時來照顧這個新生兒的話未來在男性跟女性當中還是會有落差因為男性的薪資相對就比較高一些那如果從這個另外一個角度來看這個就業保險\n514585\t540917\t目前有將近自願投保者就是自僱自營自僱的這些人數佔了將近5%那這些人其實是無法在這個過程裡面去領用到這樣的這個替代的這種八成的這個機會所以對於某一些的自僱自營的人他是無法受這個非受僱者就沒有辦法領到這一筆費用所以造成的問題其實是蠻多元的\n541497\t565117\t所以如果我們用現在那個就業保險給付的這個制度來看的話事實上是真的會有出現下一個一些問題就是就保來綁這個勞保那當然就擔心如果我們把這個剛剛講的45800的上限提升以後可能就會導致這個勞保財務的負擔會突然大量的這種提高之下就沒有辦法\n566078\t586533\t把這個45800的這個上限打開那45800的上限沒有辦法打開的話以我在這個醫院所看到的我們的住院醫師為例我們住院醫師如果是女性住院醫師或男性住院醫師平均的一些薪資目前在私立的醫院差不多是10萬到12萬元的薪資\n587489\t608128\t那如果是公立的醫院 他可能是在六萬多 將近七萬到九萬之間當他去生孩子的時候 如果他因為要生孩子以後他想要請假的話 那他的能夠抖到八成的這個替代率那八成的替代率最高性是四五八零零 其實才三萬多\n609429\t623486\t所以如果他有一個孩子當他選擇我到底要來持續就業呢還是說我要來照顧孩子當然這個落差就非常非常的大所以如果我們不去調這個45800對於這些相對\n627691\t653544\t高薪的這個勞動朋友來講或者是在這個勞基法裡面處理的部分就會受到蠻大的影響那剛剛我們這個所看到的這個百分比其實已經有41%是超過這個45800這樣的上去的這個級距所以我們會看到相當多的問題那第二個就是就業保險如果有失業給付當初的這個需求是為了政策上來不要讓這個\n655385\t675213\t太多的人是故意來領這個失業金這是有他的需求可是如果我們持續這樣綁定的話呢其實是有在政策上是有一些問題的那另外如果因為劉婷的津貼會和這個托老薪資急劇綁定的很太實的話剛剛所提到誘因其實是受影響的\n676133\t700289\t那另外就是有關身份上這些會變成一定要有受雇者才能請領的話那剛左提到的那些自營者事實上也會被受到影響他是無法來請領這些費用所以我們想要跟部長再繼續討論的就是我們有沒有辦法來提高跟擴大育嬰留庭的幾乎的可能性\n701189\t726046\t就是包括這些就是老保跟舊保的脫鉤來打開這個舊保限制的上限就是我們其實好幾次都有跟部長討論過這個問題另外就是育嬰留艇的津貼不綁舊保的話就是用六成的這個舊保的部分是不是能夠跟其他的兩成一樣都改為公務補助這樣就可以打開這方面的限制\n726886\t745957\t那當然直接墊高衛福部未滿兩歲的育兒津貼也是另外一種方式其實最重要我們期待的就是成立新的這個親子照護保險或基金來處理就是把現在在勞工朋友所受到的限制呢有沒有將來用不同的方式來做處理\n746957\t760745\t那當然這個就需要到行政院的層級一起來共同跨部會來討論所以將來部長在跟這個行政院那邊討論的時候因為今年剛好又是我國少子化對策計畫在114年\n763446\t787584\t今年這個計畫就會結束了所以就會啟動下一波有關於少子化的對策我是不是可以透過這樣的方式能夠讓整體的這些跨部會的想法也麻煩部長能夠主動的來把這些想法能夠提供給行政院來做參考那各位請部長針對這樣的想法能不能夠提供意見給我們做參考\n789475\t817084\t跟委員報告就是委員提到我們的舊保的投保薪資上限45800的這個部分那主要是我們舊保他是一個社會保險那他目的是在保障我們這個被保險人在失業或者是在育嬰留子停薪期間的基本生活的經濟安全所以我們投保薪資有所謂的上限跟下限那目前我們領育嬰留子停薪津貼的平均投保薪資大概是在三萬六千塊錢\n818104\t836645\t所以它是可以涵蓋大部分運營流停的人所以另外就是我們也用兩層來加強它的經濟補助另外委員提到說有沒有辦法脫鉤的部分就業保險它的保險給付很多包括事業給付\n837726\t857044\t那投保薪資上限如果打開的話那拉高了以後就會連帶的把失業幾戶的合戶的金額因為他是六成嘛也會提高所以對於勞工在重返職場的意願的可能性會不會受到影響的這個可能性我們也必須要來考量\n858305\t883274\t所以這一些就是要再考量到說因為他是放在社會保險放在就業保險裡面的一個限制所以沒有辦法單從雲林流停津貼這個部分來看那另外就是委員有提到說能不能增加救保的投保身份讓自營作業者也進來的這個部分那當然現在救保的投保的對象現在是受僱勞工\n885035\t902335\t主要是要來保障這些勞工遭遇非失業離職的時候他的經濟生活安全那我們是考量到自營作業者他因為工作比較自主他的失業的原因比較難以認定而且在育嬰留庭的這個部分他是要跟雇主請假的\n903496\t929241\t他沒有雇主所以也沒有辦法去請育嬰留庭假沒有辦法符合我們性供法的規定所以在有關育嬰留庭津貼的這部分即使他就算納進來他也沒有辦法來請那以上是當然我聽您這樣說明了解就是有這些限制那我們也很期待就是說如果知道問題是所在我們如何去解套\n932204\t952261\t其實現在我們就是希望能夠去解套啦吼那但的確比方說談到說比方像雲柳亭今天如果不綁舊保開公務上面補助的部分這當然就會有公務預算裁員上面的的議題現在公務預算在裁員上面其實都是相對是是非常辛苦的\n953280\t977828\t那對所以就是說這個薪資頭髮上限要打開他他最多的考慮點就是關於我們這整個在勞保財務上面的思考是所以才希望上一次才希望說能不能試算去推估造成的影響其實我們我們有試算了就是是會有更大的壓力的影響是\n979148\t998555\t好那最後當然如果將來有機會到行政院討論的時候希望也把這些需求再往上提報好謝謝王正熙醫師他的健保投保是用20萬的18萬多的然後他的勞保是用45800欸差太多了對不對好謝謝王醫師\n","txt":"王振旭委員質詢花便當喔 肚子餓著趕快吃飯好 謝謝主席 謝謝蘇昭偉我們還是請洪部長\n部長好聽了剛剛很多很多的意見我想部長也知道大家的期待是在哪裡我就用兩個議題來跟部長來討論第一個就是有關於有心彈性育嬰架的研議規劃的進度第二部分呢是不是能夠考慮來提高及擴大育嬰流停給父的可能\n那剛剛趙委還有其他委員希望能不能夠把這個目前規劃中的八成這樣的替代能夠補好補滿那當然很多的議題也需要透過這樣的方式來討論的同時也希望也知道這個方向可以往那邊走\n那其實過去我也很多次跟部長討論過有關於這個有性彈性照顧假的研議的規劃進度今天我們看到部長的書面報告還有剛剛早上的口頭報告裡面有提到這個事辦過程去年的這個事辦\n有89家的事業單位來參加看到勞工的部分方面以申請三天的占最多申請大多以保母臨時有事、腸病毒的停託課、小孩子需要陪伴以及員工想要自行照顧新生兒占為主要的原因\n那有一些是沒有提出這個申請那不提出申請的人大部分是以家庭照顧價或用其他的價別來替代而不是用我們所規劃中的這個可能的價值那雇主方面呢其中其末焦點座談會當中他們表示未來的制度如果要放寬彈性的話\n他們擔心的是影響人力的調配跟公司的營運這個就是我們看到書面的報告那其實我們也知道在這個過程需要有更好的研議的這個可能性包括時間還有更多的面向\n我們很期待從這個四個地方來麻煩部長能不能也讓我們知道彈性照護假是不是還是希望部長之前提到的是以日為單位有一些是希望用週或者是幾個小時那這樣的彈性的照護假是有薪呢還是部分的薪資或者是維持現在是無薪的\n那如果是有薪不分薪資那是雇主來負擔呢還是透過社會保險的機制還是用政府的公務預算來補助那企業的排班很多企業尤其是小型的這些微型企業他們排班的配套措施未來會是如何的規劃部長\n請就幾個方面來幫忙說明說明因為現在因為大家也在講說關於家庭照顧家的部分可是家庭照顧家目前是是沒有薪資的那如果家庭照顧家要有薪的話那這裡面就會下面的問題是要由雇主來負擔還是要由政府來負擔\n那當然如果要從雇主來負擔的話那這部分可能會遇到的的整體的在產業上面的阻力會比較大那如果是從政府來負擔的話確實現在整體現在政府尤其是菜花法修訂\n修正以後的財政的狀況要來負擔這部分確實是會非常辛苦因為幾乎是每個勞工都有這個家庭照顧價所以假設以千萬的勞工來計算大家都有家庭照顧價權利的話那這個請領下去每一天的家庭照顧價我們算起來可能會是超過百億的\n那如果是7天的話那就要再乘以7所以這也是為什麼我們比較現在比較是從雲流亭的角度來去切入希望從這部分來去做來去著手讓他可以更加的彈性那因為雲流亭他的目前他的給付那六成部分會是來自於舊寶的基金在這邊比較是可以來去處理這個問題對是\n不過剛剛林委員其實非常期待也很要求我們也知道雙薪的家庭雙就業的情形之下如果沒有這樣好的一個彈性照護的假期來使用的話相對來講就真的很難讓我們那個勺子的話\n能夠至少這部分能夠有效的來改善這個其實林委員剛剛也非常非常的希望部長這邊能夠多用心更用心的把這個部分處理的更有效率\n我想還是想跟跟文說明因為其實在整體的制度上面要去做到這個變革他其實要解他其實要去處理的挑戰跟關卡是真的是蠻多的包括在執行面那也包括是在財務的部分在人力的部分其實他需要涉及到的部分真的是很這也是為什麼過去其實這個議題其實談很久那當然希望能夠更進一步的去突破這件事情\n我還是要說這不是用不用心的問題了解 可是我們還是希望有策略當然除了用心以外 還是需要有一個策略來推進那我們就往下來看一下提高跟擴大育嬰留庭給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給\n那事實上我們也知道目前的這個想要研修的這個就業保險法裡面希望能夠6加1的這種來增加這個留庭的津貼來鼓勵雙親共同分擔育嬰的責任那這部分其實也是賴總統重要的政見這個經過這樣處理以後呢平均月投資的這個保障\n這個薪資的替代率就可以達到八成那剛才我一直希望能夠把它補好補滿那當然這個會牽扯到你提到想相關的一些費用還有如何來編好這個預算不過我們如果從另外一個方向來看的話其實目前我們所看到的這個即使最高的這個替代率的八成是透過\n我們目前的45800乘以八成這樣的薪資來做一個給付的一個他的這個所有的費用那到目前為止我們從這個就業保險的人數來看的話超過這個費用45800這個上限的佔了41%意思就是說這樣的需求似乎我們需要能夠針對這個級距來做一些調控\n那依照這個新勞退的薪資的統計的話超過這個45800是占了33.4%那平均的這些提繳的這個工資已經達到46000\n928人也都比這個45800高那我們再看下一個數據可以看到就是如果以這個可能在生育的年齡當中如果是25歲到40歲的話那男性的這些平均落差這個45800以上的其實是超過1萬元\n30歲以上的話也會更明顯一些那可是女性到44歲都沒有辦法達到這樣的費用那表示說未來如果我們要鼓勵性平能夠同時來照顧這個新生兒的話未來在男性跟女性當中還是會有落差因為男性的薪資相對就比較高一些那如果從這個另外一個角度來看這個就業保險\n目前有將近自願投保者就是自僱自營自僱的這些人數佔了將近5%那這些人其實是無法在這個過程裡面去領用到這樣的這個替代的這種八成的這個機會所以對於某一些的自僱自營的人他是無法受這個非受僱者就沒有辦法領到這一筆費用所以造成的問題其實是蠻多元的\n所以如果我們用現在那個就業保險給付的這個制度來看的話事實上是真的會有出現下一個一些問題就是就保來綁這個勞保那當然就擔心如果我們把這個剛剛講的45800的上限提升以後可能就會導致這個勞保財務的負擔會突然大量的這種提高之下就沒有辦法\n把這個45800的這個上限打開那45800的上限沒有辦法打開的話以我在這個醫院所看到的我們的住院醫師為例我們住院醫師如果是女性住院醫師或男性住院醫師平均的一些薪資目前在私立的醫院差不多是10萬到12萬元的薪資\n那如果是公立的醫院 他可能是在六萬多 將近七萬到九萬之間當他去生孩子的時候 如果他因為要生孩子以後他想要請假的話 那他的能夠抖到八成的這個替代率那八成的替代率最高性是四五八零零 其實才三萬多\n所以如果他有一個孩子當他選擇我到底要來持續就業呢還是說我要來照顧孩子當然這個落差就非常非常的大所以如果我們不去調這個45800對於這些相對\n高薪的這個勞動朋友來講或者是在這個勞基法裡面處理的部分就會受到蠻大的影響那剛剛我們這個所看到的這個百分比其實已經有41%是超過這個45800這樣的上去的這個級距所以我們會看到相當多的問題那第二個就是就業保險如果有失業給付當初的這個需求是為了政策上來不要讓這個\n太多的人是故意來領這個失業金這是有他的需求可是如果我們持續這樣綁定的話呢其實是有在政策上是有一些問題的那另外如果因為劉婷的津貼會和這個托老薪資急劇綁定的很太實的話剛剛所提到誘因其實是受影響的\n那另外就是有關身份上這些會變成一定要有受雇者才能請領的話那剛左提到的那些自營者事實上也會被受到影響他是無法來請領這些費用所以我們想要跟部長再繼續討論的就是我們有沒有辦法來提高跟擴大育嬰留庭的幾乎的可能性\n就是包括這些就是老保跟舊保的脫鉤來打開這個舊保限制的上限就是我們其實好幾次都有跟部長討論過這個問題另外就是育嬰留艇的津貼不綁舊保的話就是用六成的這個舊保的部分是不是能夠跟其他的兩成一樣都改為公務補助這樣就可以打開這方面的限制\n那當然直接墊高衛福部未滿兩歲的育兒津貼也是另外一種方式其實最重要我們期待的就是成立新的這個親子照護保險或基金來處理就是把現在在勞工朋友所受到的限制呢有沒有將來用不同的方式來做處理\n那當然這個就需要到行政院的層級一起來共同跨部會來討論所以將來部長在跟這個行政院那邊討論的時候因為今年剛好又是我國少子化對策計畫在114年\n今年這個計畫就會結束了所以就會啟動下一波有關於少子化的對策我是不是可以透過這樣的方式能夠讓整體的這些跨部會的想法也麻煩部長能夠主動的來把這些想法能夠提供給行政院來做參考那各位請部長針對這樣的想法能不能夠提供意見給我們做參考\n跟委員報告就是委員提到我們的舊保的投保薪資上限45800的這個部分那主要是我們舊保他是一個社會保險那他目的是在保障我們這個被保險人在失業或者是在育嬰留子停薪期間的基本生活的經濟安全所以我們投保薪資有所謂的上限跟下限那目前我們領育嬰留子停薪津貼的平均投保薪資大概是在三萬六千塊錢\n所以它是可以涵蓋大部分運營流停的人所以另外就是我們也用兩層來加強它的經濟補助另外委員提到說有沒有辦法脫鉤的部分就業保險它的保險給付很多包括事業給付\n那投保薪資上限如果打開的話那拉高了以後就會連帶的把失業幾戶的合戶的金額因為他是六成嘛也會提高所以對於勞工在重返職場的意願的可能性會不會受到影響的這個可能性我們也必須要來考量\n所以這一些就是要再考量到說因為他是放在社會保險放在就業保險裡面的一個限制所以沒有辦法單從雲林流停津貼這個部分來看那另外就是委員有提到說能不能增加救保的投保身份讓自營作業者也進來的這個部分那當然現在救保的投保的對象現在是受僱勞工\n主要是要來保障這些勞工遭遇非失業離職的時候他的經濟生活安全那我們是考量到自營作業者他因為工作比較自主他的失業的原因比較難以認定而且在育嬰留庭的這個部分他是要跟雇主請假的\n他沒有雇主所以也沒有辦法去請育嬰留庭假沒有辦法符合我們性供法的規定所以在有關育嬰留庭津貼的這部分即使他就算納進來他也沒有辦法來請那以上是當然我聽您這樣說明了解就是有這些限制那我們也很期待就是說如果知道問題是所在我們如何去解套\n其實現在我們就是希望能夠去解套啦吼那但的確比方說談到說比方像雲柳亭今天如果不綁舊保開公務上面補助的部分這當然就會有公務預算裁員上面的的議題現在公務預算在裁員上面其實都是相對是是非常辛苦的\n那對所以就是說這個薪資頭髮上限要打開他他最多的考慮點就是關於我們這整個在勞保財務上面的思考是所以才希望上一次才希望說能不能試算去推估造成的影響其實我們我們有試算了就是是會有更大的壓力的影響是\n好那最後當然如果將來有機會到行政院討論的時候希望也把這些需求再往上提報好謝謝王正熙醫師他的健保投保是用20萬的18萬多的然後他的勞保是用45800欸差太多了對不對好謝謝王醫師\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.802 --> 00:02.423\n王振旭委員質詢花便當喔肚子餓著趕快吃飯好謝謝主席謝謝蘇昭偉我們還是請洪部長\n\n00:28.092 --> 00:50.911\n部長好聽了剛剛很多很多的意見我想部長也知道大家的期待是在哪裡我就用兩個議題來跟部長來討論第一個就是有關於有心彈性育嬰架的研議規劃的進度第二部分呢是不是能夠考慮來提高及擴大育嬰流停給父的可能\n\n00:51.571 --> 01:12.077\n那剛剛趙委還有其他委員希望能不能夠把這個目前規劃中的八成這樣的替代能夠補好補滿那當然很多的議題也需要透過這樣的方式來討論的同時也希望也知道這個方向可以往那邊走\n\n01:13.257 --> 01:29.997\n那其實過去我也很多次跟部長討論過有關於這個有性彈性照顧假的研議的規劃進度今天我們看到部長的書面報告還有剛剛早上的口頭報告裡面有提到這個事辦過程去年的這個事辦\n\n01:30.658 --> 01:52.363\n有89家的事業單位來參加看到勞工的部分方面以申請三天的占最多申請大多以保母臨時有事、腸病毒的停託課、小孩子需要陪伴以及員工想要自行照顧新生兒占為主要的原因\n\n01:53.203 --> 02:12.990\n那有一些是沒有提出這個申請那不提出申請的人大部分是以家庭照顧價或用其他的價別來替代而不是用我們所規劃中的這個可能的價值那雇主方面呢其中其末焦點座談會當中他們表示未來的制度如果要放寬彈性的話\n\n02:14.471 --> 02:30.100\n他們擔心的是影響人力的調配跟公司的營運這個就是我們看到書面的報告那其實我們也知道在這個過程需要有更好的研議的這個可能性包括時間還有更多的面向\n\n02:32.202 --> 02:59.295\n我們很期待從這個四個地方來麻煩部長能不能也讓我們知道彈性照護假是不是還是希望部長之前提到的是以日為單位有一些是希望用週或者是幾個小時那這樣的彈性的照護假是有薪呢還是部分的薪資或者是維持現在是無薪的\n\n02:59.975 --> 03:18.290\n那如果是有薪不分薪資那是雇主來負擔呢還是透過社會保險的機制還是用政府的公務預算來補助那企業的排班很多企業尤其是小型的這些微型企業他們排班的配套措施未來會是如何的規劃部長\n\n03:20.732 --> 03:40.094\n請就幾個方面來幫忙說明說明因為現在因為大家也在講說關於家庭照顧家的部分可是家庭照顧家目前是是沒有薪資的那如果家庭照顧家要有薪的話那這裡面就會下面的問題是要由雇主來負擔還是要由政府來負擔\n\n03:41.656 --> 03:55.977\n那當然如果要從雇主來負擔的話那這部分可能會遇到的的整體的在產業上面的阻力會比較大那如果是從政府來負擔的話確實現在整體現在政府尤其是菜花法修訂\n\n03:57.339 --> 04:17.270\n修正以後的財政的狀況要來負擔這部分確實是會非常辛苦因為幾乎是每個勞工都有這個家庭照顧價所以假設以千萬的勞工來計算大家都有家庭照顧價權利的話那這個請領下去每一天的家庭照顧價我們算起來可能會是超過百億的\n\n04:18.731 --> 04:44.601\n那如果是7天的話那就要再乘以7所以這也是為什麼我們比較現在比較是從雲流亭的角度來去切入希望從這部分來去做來去著手讓他可以更加的彈性那因為雲流亭他的目前他的給付那六成部分會是來自於舊寶的基金在這邊比較是可以來去處理這個問題對是\n\n04:46.742 --> 05:03.827\n不過剛剛林委員其實非常期待也很要求我們也知道雙薪的家庭雙就業的情形之下如果沒有這樣好的一個彈性照護的假期來使用的話相對來講就真的很難讓我們那個勺子的話\n\n05:05.347 --> 05:17.897\n能夠至少這部分能夠有效的來改善這個其實林委員剛剛也非常非常的希望部長這邊能夠多用心更用心的把這個部分處理的更有效率\n\n05:19.820 --> 05:48.938\n我想還是想跟跟文說明因為其實在整體的制度上面要去做到這個變革他其實要解他其實要去處理的挑戰跟關卡是真的是蠻多的包括在執行面那也包括是在財務的部分在人力的部分其實他需要涉及到的部分真的是很這也是為什麼過去其實這個議題其實談很久那當然希望能夠更進一步的去突破這件事情\n\n05:49.398 --> 06:05.849\n我還是要說這不是用不用心的問題了解可是我們還是希望有策略當然除了用心以外還是需要有一個策略來推進那我們就往下來看一下提高跟擴大育嬰留庭給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給\n\n06:11.573 --> 06:33.540\n那事實上我們也知道目前的這個想要研修的這個就業保險法裡面希望能夠6加1的這種來增加這個留庭的津貼來鼓勵雙親共同分擔育嬰的責任那這部分其實也是賴總統重要的政見這個經過這樣處理以後呢平均月投資的這個保障\n\n06:35.800 --> 06:59.147\n這個薪資的替代率就可以達到八成那剛才我一直希望能夠把它補好補滿那當然這個會牽扯到你提到想相關的一些費用還有如何來編好這個預算不過我們如果從另外一個方向來看的話其實目前我們所看到的這個即使最高的這個替代率的八成是透過\n\n07:00.988 --> 07:15.791\n我們目前的45800乘以八成這樣的薪資來做一個給付的一個他的這個所有的費用那到目前為止我們從這個就業保險的人數來看的話超過這個費用45800這個上限的佔了41%意思就是說這樣的需求似乎我們需要能夠針對這個級距來做一些調控\n\n07:29.332 --> 07:33.614\n那依照這個新勞退的薪資的統計的話超過這個45800是占了33.4%那平均的這些提繳的這個工資已經達到46000\n\n07:46.486 --> 08:04.373\n928人也都比這個45800高那我們再看下一個數據可以看到就是如果以這個可能在生育的年齡當中如果是25歲到40歲的話那男性的這些平均落差這個45800以上的其實是超過1萬元\n\n08:06.994 --> 08:33.705\n30歲以上的話也會更明顯一些那可是女性到44歲都沒有辦法達到這樣的費用那表示說未來如果我們要鼓勵性平能夠同時來照顧這個新生兒的話未來在男性跟女性當中還是會有落差因為男性的薪資相對就比較高一些那如果從這個另外一個角度來看這個就業保險\n\n08:34.585 --> 09:00.917\n目前有將近自願投保者就是自僱自營自僱的這些人數佔了將近5%那這些人其實是無法在這個過程裡面去領用到這樣的這個替代的這種八成的這個機會所以對於某一些的自僱自營的人他是無法受這個非受僱者就沒有辦法領到這一筆費用所以造成的問題其實是蠻多元的\n\n09:01.497 --> 09:25.117\n所以如果我們用現在那個就業保險給付的這個制度來看的話事實上是真的會有出現下一個一些問題就是就保來綁這個勞保那當然就擔心如果我們把這個剛剛講的45800的上限提升以後可能就會導致這個勞保財務的負擔會突然大量的這種提高之下就沒有辦法\n\n09:26.078 --> 09:46.533\n把這個45800的這個上限打開那45800的上限沒有辦法打開的話以我在這個醫院所看到的我們的住院醫師為例我們住院醫師如果是女性住院醫師或男性住院醫師平均的一些薪資目前在私立的醫院差不多是10萬到12萬元的薪資\n\n09:47.489 --> 10:08.128\n那如果是公立的醫院他可能是在六萬多將近七萬到九萬之間當他去生孩子的時候如果他因為要生孩子以後他想要請假的話那他的能夠抖到八成的這個替代率那八成的替代率最高性是四五八零零其實才三萬多\n\n10:09.429 --> 10:23.486\n所以如果他有一個孩子當他選擇我到底要來持續就業呢還是說我要來照顧孩子當然這個落差就非常非常的大所以如果我們不去調這個45800對於這些相對\n\n10:27.691 --> 10:53.544\n高薪的這個勞動朋友來講或者是在這個勞基法裡面處理的部分就會受到蠻大的影響那剛剛我們這個所看到的這個百分比其實已經有41%是超過這個45800這樣的上去的這個級距所以我們會看到相當多的問題那第二個就是就業保險如果有失業給付當初的這個需求是為了政策上來不要讓這個\n\n10:55.385 --> 11:15.213\n太多的人是故意來領這個失業金這是有他的需求可是如果我們持續這樣綁定的話呢其實是有在政策上是有一些問題的那另外如果因為劉婷的津貼會和這個托老薪資急劇綁定的很太實的話剛剛所提到誘因其實是受影響的\n\n11:16.133 --> 11:40.289\n那另外就是有關身份上這些會變成一定要有受雇者才能請領的話那剛左提到的那些自營者事實上也會被受到影響他是無法來請領這些費用所以我們想要跟部長再繼續討論的就是我們有沒有辦法來提高跟擴大育嬰留庭的幾乎的可能性\n\n11:41.189 --> 12:06.046\n就是包括這些就是老保跟舊保的脫鉤來打開這個舊保限制的上限就是我們其實好幾次都有跟部長討論過這個問題另外就是育嬰留艇的津貼不綁舊保的話就是用六成的這個舊保的部分是不是能夠跟其他的兩成一樣都改為公務補助這樣就可以打開這方面的限制\n\n12:06.886 --> 12:25.957\n那當然直接墊高衛福部未滿兩歲的育兒津貼也是另外一種方式其實最重要我們期待的就是成立新的這個親子照護保險或基金來處理就是把現在在勞工朋友所受到的限制呢有沒有將來用不同的方式來做處理\n\n12:26.957 --> 12:40.745\n那當然這個就需要到行政院的層級一起來共同跨部會來討論所以將來部長在跟這個行政院那邊討論的時候因為今年剛好又是我國少子化對策計畫在114年\n\n12:43.446 --> 13:07.584\n今年這個計畫就會結束了所以就會啟動下一波有關於少子化的對策我是不是可以透過這樣的方式能夠讓整體的這些跨部會的想法也麻煩部長能夠主動的來把這些想法能夠提供給行政院來做參考那各位請部長針對這樣的想法能不能夠提供意見給我們做參考\n\n13:09.475 --> 13:37.084\n跟委員報告就是委員提到我們的舊保的投保薪資上限45800的這個部分那主要是我們舊保他是一個社會保險那他目的是在保障我們這個被保險人在失業或者是在育嬰留子停薪期間的基本生活的經濟安全所以我們投保薪資有所謂的上限跟下限那目前我們領育嬰留子停薪津貼的平均投保薪資大概是在三萬六千塊錢\n\n13:38.104 --> 13:56.645\n所以它是可以涵蓋大部分運營流停的人所以另外就是我們也用兩層來加強它的經濟補助另外委員提到說有沒有辦法脫鉤的部分就業保險它的保險給付很多包括事業給付\n\n13:57.726 --> 14:17.044\n那投保薪資上限如果打開的話那拉高了以後就會連帶的把失業幾戶的合戶的金額因為他是六成嘛也會提高所以對於勞工在重返職場的意願的可能性會不會受到影響的這個可能性我們也必須要來考量\n\n14:18.305 --> 14:43.274\n所以這一些就是要再考量到說因為他是放在社會保險放在就業保險裡面的一個限制所以沒有辦法單從雲林流停津貼這個部分來看那另外就是委員有提到說能不能增加救保的投保身份讓自營作業者也進來的這個部分那當然現在救保的投保的對象現在是受僱勞工\n\n14:45.035 --> 15:02.335\n主要是要來保障這些勞工遭遇非失業離職的時候他的經濟生活安全那我們是考量到自營作業者他因為工作比較自主他的失業的原因比較難以認定而且在育嬰留庭的這個部分他是要跟雇主請假的\n\n15:03.496 --> 15:29.241\n他沒有雇主所以也沒有辦法去請育嬰留庭假沒有辦法符合我們性供法的規定所以在有關育嬰留庭津貼的這部分即使他就算納進來他也沒有辦法來請那以上是當然我聽您這樣說明了解就是有這些限制那我們也很期待就是說如果知道問題是所在我們如何去解套\n\n15:32.204 --> 15:52.261\n其實現在我們就是希望能夠去解套啦吼那但的確比方說談到說比方像雲柳亭今天如果不綁舊保開公務上面補助的部分這當然就會有公務預算裁員上面的的議題現在公務預算在裁員上面其實都是相對是是非常辛苦的\n\n15:53.280 --> 16:17.828\n那對所以就是說這個薪資頭髮上限要打開他他最多的考慮點就是關於我們這整個在勞保財務上面的思考是所以才希望上一次才希望說能不能試算去推估造成的影響其實我們我們有試算了就是是會有更大的壓力的影響是\n\n16:19.148 --> 16:38.555\n好那最後當然如果將來有機會到行政院討論的時候希望也把這些需求再往上提報好謝謝王正熙醫師他的健保投保是用20萬的18萬多的然後他的勞保是用45800欸差太多了對不對好謝謝王醫師\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.802,"end":2.423,"text":"王振旭委員質詢花便當喔 肚子餓著趕快吃飯好 謝謝主席 謝謝蘇昭偉我們還是請洪部長"},{"start":28.092,"end":50.911,"text":"部長好聽了剛剛很多很多的意見我想部長也知道大家的期待是在哪裡我就用兩個議題來跟部長來討論第一個就是有關於有心彈性育嬰架的研議規劃的進度第二部分呢是不是能夠考慮來提高及擴大育嬰流停給父的可能"},{"start":51.571,"end":72.077,"text":"那剛剛趙委還有其他委員希望能不能夠把這個目前規劃中的八成這樣的替代能夠補好補滿那當然很多的議題也需要透過這樣的方式來討論的同時也希望也知道這個方向可以往那邊走"},{"start":73.257,"end":89.997,"text":"那其實過去我也很多次跟部長討論過有關於這個有性彈性照顧假的研議的規劃進度今天我們看到部長的書面報告還有剛剛早上的口頭報告裡面有提到這個事辦過程去年的這個事辦"},{"start":90.658,"end":112.363,"text":"有89家的事業單位來參加看到勞工的部分方面以申請三天的占最多申請大多以保母臨時有事、腸病毒的停託課、小孩子需要陪伴以及員工想要自行照顧新生兒占為主要的原因"},{"start":113.203,"end":132.99,"text":"那有一些是沒有提出這個申請那不提出申請的人大部分是以家庭照顧價或用其他的價別來替代而不是用我們所規劃中的這個可能的價值那雇主方面呢其中其末焦點座談會當中他們表示未來的制度如果要放寬彈性的話"},{"start":134.471,"end":150.1,"text":"他們擔心的是影響人力的調配跟公司的營運這個就是我們看到書面的報告那其實我們也知道在這個過程需要有更好的研議的這個可能性包括時間還有更多的面向"},{"start":152.202,"end":179.295,"text":"我們很期待從這個四個地方來麻煩部長能不能也讓我們知道彈性照護假是不是還是希望部長之前提到的是以日為單位有一些是希望用週或者是幾個小時那這樣的彈性的照護假是有薪呢還是部分的薪資或者是維持現在是無薪的"},{"start":179.975,"end":198.29,"text":"那如果是有薪不分薪資那是雇主來負擔呢還是透過社會保險的機制還是用政府的公務預算來補助那企業的排班很多企業尤其是小型的這些微型企業他們排班的配套措施未來會是如何的規劃部長"},{"start":200.732,"end":220.094,"text":"請就幾個方面來幫忙說明說明因為現在因為大家也在講說關於家庭照顧家的部分可是家庭照顧家目前是是沒有薪資的那如果家庭照顧家要有薪的話那這裡面就會下面的問題是要由雇主來負擔還是要由政府來負擔"},{"start":221.656,"end":235.977,"text":"那當然如果要從雇主來負擔的話那這部分可能會遇到的的整體的在產業上面的阻力會比較大那如果是從政府來負擔的話確實現在整體現在政府尤其是菜花法修訂"},{"start":237.339,"end":257.27,"text":"修正以後的財政的狀況要來負擔這部分確實是會非常辛苦因為幾乎是每個勞工都有這個家庭照顧價所以假設以千萬的勞工來計算大家都有家庭照顧價權利的話那這個請領下去每一天的家庭照顧價我們算起來可能會是超過百億的"},{"start":258.731,"end":284.601,"text":"那如果是7天的話那就要再乘以7所以這也是為什麼我們比較現在比較是從雲流亭的角度來去切入希望從這部分來去做來去著手讓他可以更加的彈性那因為雲流亭他的目前他的給付那六成部分會是來自於舊寶的基金在這邊比較是可以來去處理這個問題對是"},{"start":286.742,"end":303.827,"text":"不過剛剛林委員其實非常期待也很要求我們也知道雙薪的家庭雙就業的情形之下如果沒有這樣好的一個彈性照護的假期來使用的話相對來講就真的很難讓我們那個勺子的話"},{"start":305.347,"end":317.897,"text":"能夠至少這部分能夠有效的來改善這個其實林委員剛剛也非常非常的希望部長這邊能夠多用心更用心的把這個部分處理的更有效率"},{"start":319.82,"end":348.938,"text":"我想還是想跟跟文說明因為其實在整體的制度上面要去做到這個變革他其實要解他其實要去處理的挑戰跟關卡是真的是蠻多的包括在執行面那也包括是在財務的部分在人力的部分其實他需要涉及到的部分真的是很這也是為什麼過去其實這個議題其實談很久那當然希望能夠更進一步的去突破這件事情"},{"start":349.398,"end":365.849,"text":"我還是要說這不是用不用心的問題了解 可是我們還是希望有策略當然除了用心以外 還是需要有一個策略來推進那我們就往下來看一下提高跟擴大育嬰留庭給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給"},{"start":371.573,"end":393.54,"text":"那事實上我們也知道目前的這個想要研修的這個就業保險法裡面希望能夠6加1的這種來增加這個留庭的津貼來鼓勵雙親共同分擔育嬰的責任那這部分其實也是賴總統重要的政見這個經過這樣處理以後呢平均月投資的這個保障"},{"start":395.8,"end":419.147,"text":"這個薪資的替代率就可以達到八成那剛才我一直希望能夠把它補好補滿那當然這個會牽扯到你提到想相關的一些費用還有如何來編好這個預算不過我們如果從另外一個方向來看的話其實目前我們所看到的這個即使最高的這個替代率的八成是透過"},{"start":420.988,"end":435.791,"text":"我們目前的45800乘以八成這樣的薪資來做一個給付的一個他的這個所有的費用那到目前為止我們從這個就業保險的人數來看的話超過這個費用45800這個上限的佔了41%意思就是說這樣的需求似乎我們需要能夠針對這個級距來做一些調控"},{"start":449.332,"end":453.614,"text":"那依照這個新勞退的薪資的統計的話超過這個45800是占了33.4%那平均的這些提繳的這個工資已經達到46000"},{"start":466.486,"end":484.373,"text":"928人也都比這個45800高那我們再看下一個數據可以看到就是如果以這個可能在生育的年齡當中如果是25歲到40歲的話那男性的這些平均落差這個45800以上的其實是超過1萬元"},{"start":486.994,"end":513.705,"text":"30歲以上的話也會更明顯一些那可是女性到44歲都沒有辦法達到這樣的費用那表示說未來如果我們要鼓勵性平能夠同時來照顧這個新生兒的話未來在男性跟女性當中還是會有落差因為男性的薪資相對就比較高一些那如果從這個另外一個角度來看這個就業保險"},{"start":514.585,"end":540.917,"text":"目前有將近自願投保者就是自僱自營自僱的這些人數佔了將近5%那這些人其實是無法在這個過程裡面去領用到這樣的這個替代的這種八成的這個機會所以對於某一些的自僱自營的人他是無法受這個非受僱者就沒有辦法領到這一筆費用所以造成的問題其實是蠻多元的"},{"start":541.497,"end":565.117,"text":"所以如果我們用現在那個就業保險給付的這個制度來看的話事實上是真的會有出現下一個一些問題就是就保來綁這個勞保那當然就擔心如果我們把這個剛剛講的45800的上限提升以後可能就會導致這個勞保財務的負擔會突然大量的這種提高之下就沒有辦法"},{"start":566.078,"end":586.533,"text":"把這個45800的這個上限打開那45800的上限沒有辦法打開的話以我在這個醫院所看到的我們的住院醫師為例我們住院醫師如果是女性住院醫師或男性住院醫師平均的一些薪資目前在私立的醫院差不多是10萬到12萬元的薪資"},{"start":587.489,"end":608.128,"text":"那如果是公立的醫院 他可能是在六萬多 將近七萬到九萬之間當他去生孩子的時候 如果他因為要生孩子以後他想要請假的話 那他的能夠抖到八成的這個替代率那八成的替代率最高性是四五八零零 其實才三萬多"},{"start":609.429,"end":623.486,"text":"所以如果他有一個孩子當他選擇我到底要來持續就業呢還是說我要來照顧孩子當然這個落差就非常非常的大所以如果我們不去調這個45800對於這些相對"},{"start":627.691,"end":653.544,"text":"高薪的這個勞動朋友來講或者是在這個勞基法裡面處理的部分就會受到蠻大的影響那剛剛我們這個所看到的這個百分比其實已經有41%是超過這個45800這樣的上去的這個級距所以我們會看到相當多的問題那第二個就是就業保險如果有失業給付當初的這個需求是為了政策上來不要讓這個"},{"start":655.385,"end":675.213,"text":"太多的人是故意來領這個失業金這是有他的需求可是如果我們持續這樣綁定的話呢其實是有在政策上是有一些問題的那另外如果因為劉婷的津貼會和這個托老薪資急劇綁定的很太實的話剛剛所提到誘因其實是受影響的"},{"start":676.133,"end":700.289,"text":"那另外就是有關身份上這些會變成一定要有受雇者才能請領的話那剛左提到的那些自營者事實上也會被受到影響他是無法來請領這些費用所以我們想要跟部長再繼續討論的就是我們有沒有辦法來提高跟擴大育嬰留庭的幾乎的可能性"},{"start":701.189,"end":726.046,"text":"就是包括這些就是老保跟舊保的脫鉤來打開這個舊保限制的上限就是我們其實好幾次都有跟部長討論過這個問題另外就是育嬰留艇的津貼不綁舊保的話就是用六成的這個舊保的部分是不是能夠跟其他的兩成一樣都改為公務補助這樣就可以打開這方面的限制"},{"start":726.886,"end":745.957,"text":"那當然直接墊高衛福部未滿兩歲的育兒津貼也是另外一種方式其實最重要我們期待的就是成立新的這個親子照護保險或基金來處理就是把現在在勞工朋友所受到的限制呢有沒有將來用不同的方式來做處理"},{"start":746.957,"end":760.745,"text":"那當然這個就需要到行政院的層級一起來共同跨部會來討論所以將來部長在跟這個行政院那邊討論的時候因為今年剛好又是我國少子化對策計畫在114年"},{"start":763.446,"end":787.584,"text":"今年這個計畫就會結束了所以就會啟動下一波有關於少子化的對策我是不是可以透過這樣的方式能夠讓整體的這些跨部會的想法也麻煩部長能夠主動的來把這些想法能夠提供給行政院來做參考那各位請部長針對這樣的想法能不能夠提供意見給我們做參考"},{"start":789.475,"end":817.084,"text":"跟委員報告就是委員提到我們的舊保的投保薪資上限45800的這個部分那主要是我們舊保他是一個社會保險那他目的是在保障我們這個被保險人在失業或者是在育嬰留子停薪期間的基本生活的經濟安全所以我們投保薪資有所謂的上限跟下限那目前我們領育嬰留子停薪津貼的平均投保薪資大概是在三萬六千塊錢"},{"start":818.104,"end":836.645,"text":"所以它是可以涵蓋大部分運營流停的人所以另外就是我們也用兩層來加強它的經濟補助另外委員提到說有沒有辦法脫鉤的部分就業保險它的保險給付很多包括事業給付"},{"start":837.726,"end":857.044,"text":"那投保薪資上限如果打開的話那拉高了以後就會連帶的把失業幾戶的合戶的金額因為他是六成嘛也會提高所以對於勞工在重返職場的意願的可能性會不會受到影響的這個可能性我們也必須要來考量"},{"start":858.305,"end":883.274,"text":"所以這一些就是要再考量到說因為他是放在社會保險放在就業保險裡面的一個限制所以沒有辦法單從雲林流停津貼這個部分來看那另外就是委員有提到說能不能增加救保的投保身份讓自營作業者也進來的這個部分那當然現在救保的投保的對象現在是受僱勞工"},{"start":885.035,"end":902.335,"text":"主要是要來保障這些勞工遭遇非失業離職的時候他的經濟生活安全那我們是考量到自營作業者他因為工作比較自主他的失業的原因比較難以認定而且在育嬰留庭的這個部分他是要跟雇主請假的"},{"start":903.496,"end":929.241,"text":"他沒有雇主所以也沒有辦法去請育嬰留庭假沒有辦法符合我們性供法的規定所以在有關育嬰留庭津貼的這部分即使他就算納進來他也沒有辦法來請那以上是當然我聽您這樣說明了解就是有這些限制那我們也很期待就是說如果知道問題是所在我們如何去解套"},{"start":932.204,"end":952.261,"text":"其實現在我們就是希望能夠去解套啦吼那但的確比方說談到說比方像雲柳亭今天如果不綁舊保開公務上面補助的部分這當然就會有公務預算裁員上面的的議題現在公務預算在裁員上面其實都是相對是是非常辛苦的"},{"start":953.28,"end":977.828,"text":"那對所以就是說這個薪資頭髮上限要打開他他最多的考慮點就是關於我們這整個在勞保財務上面的思考是所以才希望上一次才希望說能不能試算去推估造成的影響其實我們我們有試算了就是是會有更大的壓力的影響是"},{"start":979.148,"end":998.555,"text":"好那最後當然如果將來有機會到行政院討論的時候希望也把這些需求再往上提報好謝謝王正熙醫師他的健保投保是用20萬的18萬多的然後他的勞保是用45800欸差太多了對不對好謝謝王醫師"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":858,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（12時9分）好，謝謝主席。謝謝蘇召委。我們還是請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。聽了剛剛很多很多的意見，我想部長也知道大家的期待是在哪裡，我們就用兩個議題來跟部長來討論，第一個就是有關於有薪彈性育嬰假的研議規劃的進度，第二部分就是是不是能夠考慮來提高及擴大育嬰留停給付的可能，剛剛召委和其他委員希望能夠把目前規劃中的八成這部分補好補滿，那當然很多的議題也需要透過這樣的方式來討論的同時，也希望能夠知道這個方向可以往哪邊走。其實過去我也多次跟部長討論過有關於有薪彈性照顧假的研議的規劃進度，今天我們看到部長的書面報告，還有早上的口頭報告裡面有提到，去年的試辦過程中，有89家事業單位來參加，勞工的部分以申請3天的占最多，申請理由大多是保母臨時有事、因腸病毒停托課的小孩子需要陪伴及員工想要自行照顧新生兒為主要的原因。有一些沒有提出申請，不提出申請的原因大部分是以家庭照顧假或用其他的假別來替代，而不是用我們規劃中的可能的假期。那雇主方面，期中、期末焦點座談會當中，他們表示，未來的制度如果要放寬彈性的話，他們擔心的是影響人力的調配跟公司的營運，這個就是我們看到書面的報告的內容。其實我們也知道，在這個過程，需要有更好的研議的可能性，包括時間及更多的面向，我們很期待從這個四個地方來研議，麻煩部長，能不能也讓我們知道，彈性照顧假是不是還是部長之前提到的以日為單位，有一些是用週或幾個小時為單位？那這樣的彈性照顧假是有薪還是部分的薪資，或者是維持是無薪的？如果是有薪或領部分薪資，那是雇主來負擔，還是透過社會保險的機制，還是用政府的公務預算來補助？在企業的排班，很多企業，尤其是小型的微型企業，他們排班的配套措施未來會是如何規劃？部長，請就這幾個方面來幫忙說明一下。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在因為大家也在講關於家庭照顧假的部分，家庭照顧假目前是沒有薪資的，如果家庭照顧假要有薪的話，下面的問題是要由雇主來負擔，還是要由政府來負擔。當然如果要由雇主來負擔的話，那這部分在產業上面可能會遇到的整體阻力會比較大，如果是由政府來負擔的話，以現在的政府，尤其是在財劃法修正以後的財政狀況，要來負擔這個部分，確實會非常辛苦，因為幾乎每一個勞工都會有家庭照顧假，所以假設以千萬的勞工來計算，大家都有家庭照顧假的權利的話，請領下去，每一天的家庭照顧假，我們算起來，可能會是超過百億的。如果是7天的話，那就要再乘以7，所以這也是為什麼我們現在比較傾向從育嬰留停的角度來去切入，希望從這個部分來去著手，讓它可以更加有彈性。因為育嬰留停目前給付六成的部分是來自於就保基金，在這裡面比較可以來去處理這個問題。"],["王委員正旭：是，不過剛剛林委員其實非常期待，也很要求，我們也知道，雙薪家庭雙就業的情形之下，如果沒有這樣好的一個彈性照顧假期來使用的話，相對來講，就真的很難讓我們的少子化能夠有效改善。其實林委員剛剛也非常非常希望部長能夠多用心，更用心地把這個部分處理得更有效率。"],["洪部長申翰：我還是想跟委員說明，在整體的制度上面要去做到這一個變革，要去處理的挑戰跟關卡真的是滿多的，包括在執行面，也包括在財務的部分，在人力的部分，需要涉及到的部分真的是很多，這也是為什麼過去這個議題談很久，我們當然希望能夠更進一步去突破這件事情。"],["王委員正旭：是。好。"],["洪部長申翰：我還是要說，這不是用不用心的問題。"],["王委員正旭：了解，了解。可是我們還是希望有策略，除了用心以外，還是需要有一個策略來推進，那我們就往下來看一下提高跟擴大育嬰留停給付的可能性，之前也有跟部長討論過，事實上我們也知道，目前想要研修的就業保險法裡面，希望能夠以6加1的方式來增加留停的津貼，來鼓勵雙薪共同分擔育嬰的責任，這一部分其實也是賴總統重要的政見，經過這樣處理以後，平均月投保薪資的替代率就可以到達八成，剛剛召委一直希望能夠把它補好補滿，那當然這個會牽扯到你提到的相關的一些費用，還有如何來編好這個預算，不過我們如果從另外一個方向來看的話，其實目前我們所看到的，即使以最高的替代率八成來算，是透過投保金額4萬5,800乘以八成來給付所有的費用，那到目前為止，我們從投保就業保險的人數來看的話，超過4萬5,800這個上限的占了41%，意思就是說，對於這樣的需求，我們似乎需要針對級距來做一些調控，那依照勞退投保人的薪資來統計的話，超過4萬5,800的占了33.4%，那平均的提繳工資已經達到4萬6,928元，也都比4萬5,800高。","我們再看下一個數據，可以看到的就是，如果以可能生育的年齡當中，如果是25歲到40歲的話，那男性的平均落差，4萬5,800以上的其實超過1萬元，30歲以上的話，也會更明顯一些。可是女性到了44歲都沒有辦法達到這樣的費用。表示說，未來如果我們要鼓勵性平，夫妻能夠同時來照顧新生兒的話，未來在男性跟女性當中，還是會有落差，因為男性的薪資相對就比較高一些。如果從另外一個角度來看就業保險，目前自願投保者，就是自僱、自營的這些人，占了將近5%，這些人其實是無法在這個過程裡面領用到替代的八成的這個機會，所以某一些自僱、自營的人，他是非受僱者就沒有辦法領到這一筆費用，所以造成的問題其實是滿多元的。如果我們用現在的就業保險給付的制度來看的話，事實上是真的會出現下列的一些問題，就是就保來綁勞保，如果我們把剛剛講的4萬5,800的上限提升以後，可能就會導致勞保財務負擔突然大量提高，就沒有辦法把4萬5,800這個上限打開。4萬5,800的上限沒有辦法打開的話，以我在醫院所看到的，以我們的住院醫師為例，不管是女性或男性的住院醫師，平均的薪資，目前在私立的醫院差不多是10萬到12萬元，如果是公立的醫院，可能是六萬多，將近7萬到9萬之間，當他去生孩子的時候，如果他生孩子以後想要請假的話，他能夠得到的津貼，以薪資的上限45,800來算，再乘以八成替代率，其實才三萬多，所以如果他有一個孩子，當他選擇到底要持續就業，還是照顧孩子，這中間落差就非常大。如果我們不去調這個4萬5,800元，對於相對高薪的勞動朋友來講，或是勞基法裡面處理的部分，就會受到滿大的影響。剛剛看到的百分比，其實已經有41%超過4萬5,800元的級距，所以我們會看到相當多的問題。","第二個是就業保險如果有失業給付，當初的這個需求是為了政策上不要讓太多人故意領失業金，這是有它的需求。可是如果我們持續綁定的話，在政策上是有一些問題的。還有，如果誘因留停津貼跟投保薪資級距綁定得太死，剛剛所提到的誘因其實是受影響的。另外關於身分上，若變成一定要有受雇者才能請領的話，剛剛所提到的自營者也會受到影響，他是無法請領這些費用。所以我們想要跟部長討論的是，有沒有辦法提高跟擴大育嬰留停給付的可能性，包括勞保跟就保的脫鉤，打開就保薪資上限，我們其實好幾次跟部長討論過這些問題。","另外，育嬰留停津貼不綁就保的話，用六成的就保部分，是不是能夠跟其他二成一樣都改為公務補助，這樣就可以打開這方面的限制。當然直接墊高衛福部未滿兩歲的育兒津貼，也是另外一種方式。最重要的是，我們期待成立新的親子照護保險或基金，把現在勞工朋友所受到的限制，將來用不同方式來處理。當然這就需要行政院層級共同跨部會討論。所以將來部長在跟行政院討論時，因為今年剛好又是我國少子女化對策計畫最後一年，在114年這個計畫就會結束了。所以就會啟動下一波有關於少子化的對策，是不是可以透過這樣的方式，請部長主動把這些跨部會想法提供給行政院參考，可不可以請部長針對這些想法提供意見給我們參考？"],["陳司長美女：委員提到就保投保薪資上限4萬5,800元，主要是就保是一個社會保險，目的是在保障我們被保險人在失業或育嬰留職停薪期間的基本生活經濟安全，所以投保薪資有上限跟下限。目前領育嬰留職停薪津貼的平均投保薪資大概是在3萬6,000塊錢，所以是可以涵蓋大部分育嬰留停的人，另外我們也用兩成來加強他的經濟補助。","其次委員提到有沒有辦法脫鉤的部分，就業保險的保險給付很多，包括失業給付，投保薪資上限如果打開，拉高後就會連帶把失業給付的核付金額也提高，因為他是六成，所以對於勞工重返職場的意願，會不會受到影響的可能性，我們也必須考量。因為它是放在社會保險，在就業保險裡面的限制，所以沒有辦法單從育嬰留停津貼來看。","另外委員提到能不能增加就保的投保身分，讓自營作業者也進來。現在就保投保對象是受僱勞工，主要保障這些勞工遭遇非自願離職時的經濟生活安全。考量到自營作業者因為工作比較自主，失業原因比較難以認定，而且育嬰留停要跟雇主請假，那他沒有雇主，所以也沒有辦法請育嬰留停假，沒有辦法符合性工法規定，所以有關育嬰留停津貼的部分，即使他就算納進來，也沒有辦法請，以上。"],["王委員正旭：是，我聽您這樣說明了解有這些限制，我們也很期待，如果知道問題所在，如何去解套？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實我們就是希望能夠解套，但的確像育嬰留停津貼如果不綁就保，改由公務補助的部分，就會有公務預算財源上的議題。現在公務預算在財源上其實都是相對非常辛苦。所以薪資投保上限要打開，最多的考慮點就是關於整個在勞保財務上面的思考。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以上次才希望能不能試算，推估造成的影響。"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們有試算了，就是會有更大的壓力影響。"],["王委員正旭：好，最後如果將來有機會到行政院討論時，希望把這些需求再往上提報，謝謝。"],["主席：王正旭醫師，他的健保投保是20萬、十八萬多，然後他的勞保是4萬5,800元，差太多了，對不對？好，謝謝王委員。","繼續我們請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":516,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-17","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","涂權吉","劉建國","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","李坤城","張雅琳","張啓楷","陳瑩","楊曜","林德福","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":443,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146001_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「營造友善職場育兒環境，落實照顧不離職政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1146001_00017"}}}