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\"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 670.0, \"end\": 670.02, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 670.02, \"end\": 670.04, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 670.04, \"end\": 670.12, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 670.12, \"end\": 670.14, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 670.14, \"end\": 670.16, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 670.16, \"end\": 670.18, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 670.18, \"end\": 670.2, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,749 --> 00:00:04,691\n好謝謝主席有請黃部長請部長好陸委員好好部長直接跟您討論一下因為前一陣子這可以講做網路我們科技領域非常重要的一個事件在5月底Google宣布在中華電信的部分它的憑證的信任出了問題\n\n2\n00:00:28,123 --> 00:00:56,108\n那他中間的一些理由啊特別講說過去一年對於中華電信相關的這個作為他的令人擔憂的行為模式中間可靠性下降啊有些缺失沒改善沒有達到預期這整整的原因就是Google移除這個中華電信的評論就是不信任那中華電信的初步的回答也讓人真的是\n\n3\n00:00:57,308 --> 00:01:22,994\n蠻佩服的一句話大家不要緊張啦不要緊張為什麼呢下面中華電力第一次的回應因為只是部分的程序未能在新政策要求的實現內完成只是時間不夠啦方向都沒問題啦他也沒有講人家是給你一年的時間還是給你一個月的時間為什麼不夠這樣的你今天立場有兩個第一個\n\n4\n00:01:25,214 --> 00:01:44,932\n你是一個我們台灣不管是數位安全資安甚至如果這個憑證會影響到產業發展要做生意種種的國際性問題你是這樣的一個主管你作為一個專家領域你對這個事情可以在旁邊作為第三者做一個評鑑好不好我先請你用一個你專業領域來對應中華電信\n\n5\n00:01:47,934 --> 00:02:09,599\n這樣的的回答跟在國際上面的一個瀏覽器Google發生這樣的問題你能夠做個評鑑嗎中華電信出了什麼問題那個鮑委員我先講我們對這個事情的看法就基本上第一個這個事情不影響政府的所謂的治安因為這個他過去發了憑證跟那個跟我們在使用的憑證是完全沒有治安的問題\n\n6\n00:02:10,279 --> 00:02:35,873\n他現在出問題是出在8月1號以後要重新發新的憑證Google不讓他發這是第一個那第二個就是說那個這個當然是這個所謂中華電信內部關聯問題他前陣子也有新聞就他們內部的處分那現在重點是那個我也跟Google跟中華電信討論過剛剛講政府我們有雙簽證所以都已經換了反正就完全沒有問題民間的憑證呢他們也答應如果到了8月1號之後\n\n7\n00:02:36,713 --> 00:03:04,992\n有新的憑證需要如果需要轉他們會免費幫業者就產業界做轉所以基本上對台灣的資安是沒有受到影響但是中華電信在這過程中的一些未來怎麼去加強這個中華電信要再去檢討那他們也答應會在未來尤其是這個憑證他們希望能夠將來再取得發憑證的權利那這個他們內部會加緊進行去爭取這樣的權利部長你現在是以第三者的專家的領域來去評鑑中華電信這件事情\n\n8\n00:03:06,933 --> 00:03:20,686\n但我是真的希望不要跟中華電信一樣把這個事情感覺很小沒有問題沒有影響我來幫你想像一下好不好這件事發生美國第一大龍頭AT&TAT&T的憑證信任系統\n\n9\n00:03:25,597 --> 00:03:53,269\n假設啦假設被打槍或者德國的不管是德國歐洲的某個電信系統公司遇到這樣的問題這樣啦我們不講我們不要幫他解釋你會不會對於這個國家或這個領域你會覺得有幾時不信任的感覺我是覺得這件事情中華電信要檢討啦對我也相信你也支持一個人的信任要拚一輩子\n\n10\n00:03:53,829 --> 00:04:19,088\n你知道吧有時候做人處事我幾年還沒有辦法得到大部分人的信任那你在網路世界一個好啦類國家的一個機構你要累積一點點的信任其實是不容易的我們真的是希望中華電信他能夠有這樣的一個體認啦他不說我就是一家公司啦抱歉啦我跟你講這個抱歉是非常嚴重所以你自己覺得要改善但你覺得是\n\n11\n00:04:20,349 --> 00:04:43,957\n專業的問題還是人的態度問題那主要是人的問題嘛所以他有很多的一個在中華電信裡面有很多的專家很多的IT人才他整體來處理這件事的專業我們看起來最後感覺是沒有問題他有能力處理但是只是人啊態度的問題那我是覺得到底是管理階層的問題或者中間的問題\n\n12\n00:04:46,758 --> 00:05:06,028\n我倒是覺得因為這個問題比我們想像更大在網路世界其他國家怎麼樣去信任台灣的網路確實產生了一些影響我們再來看一下這個董事長過不到一個禮拜又說了鬆化電競的第二個立場\n\n13\n00:05:07,558 --> 00:05:28,975\n還是拍誰啦就是以為被寄過來沒想到是直接退學了其實我聽到這個又有點怕你知道嗎因為我們把很多的一個重任交給中華電信數位發展部請你以第二種角色好不好因為在政府的伺服器數位憑證管理中心所謂的GTLSCA這個系統\n\n14\n00:05:32,858 --> 00:05:45,611\n這個第一頁一清二楚主辦單位就是所謂主辦單位執行單位不管你們的合作模式怎麼樣都不重要啦都不重要那請你當事人這個身份你是主辦單位啊\n\n15\n00:05:47,313 --> 00:06:08,800\n對不對那你這個事情委託他們不是我的意思就是說在這個的部分你寫得很清楚對於這種相關的一些憑證的規範甚至瀏覽去網路的論壇一堆專家都是相關的一些規則要去follow結果呢我就不去講了就是已經是一年前發生的事情了\n\n16\n00:06:09,580 --> 00:06:30,145\n還在不同的瀏覽器對不對也許是Fivefox先發現這個不對嘛就有一些出現了一些問題所以這個時間是非常非常久然後咧在下面評論一啊他令人無法相信中華電信會可靠的遵守憑證遵守這個BusinessRule\n\n17\n00:06:30,825 --> 00:06:45,730\n你看看他這邊的在這個論壇裡面留校察看的給他們時間怎麼樣去改善相關的問題不斷的提醒而且不光是Google還有這個另外一家像Fivefox對不對\n\n18\n00:06:46,630 --> 00:07:01,443\nMozila也在提醒他所以你現在遇到這樣的一個情況最後扯到的我就請問一下我們你是當事人我覺得這樣的政府我們今天給數位部真的非常多委外的預算\n\n19\n00:07:02,648 --> 00:07:19,288\n所以你千萬不要跟我講一件事我委外之後不關我屁事那以後我抱歉我怎麼講髒話了那以後年底一說你委外委外他做對了對不對我們地方政府委要蓋個房子倒了還不關我的事啊\n\n20\n00:07:20,009 --> 00:07:36,327\n建商對不對設計公司都不是我們這委外嘛對不對我們委外辦一個跨年晚會啊搞砸了還有不管我的事啊所以我跟你講這當然是關你的事因為你是主管機關所以你當你第一件事情我看到數位部的答案是說\n\n21\n00:07:38,049 --> 00:08:06,979\n你剛剛跟他其實只是雇傭關係嘛你們為什麼要這樣打還是你們真的內心講說你們只是叫僱約契約的關係啊也沒有什麼督導的關係你要不要再回答一遍你們到底什麼關係那個報委員就是說事實上這個事情啊我剛講就是說因為憑證這個東西我們台灣有兩家公司可以發憑證所以我們跟兩家都有簽約所以他們我們都是委辦這兩家就給政府的政府單位憑證那所以呢當\n\n22\n00:08:07,839 --> 00:08:25,820\n中華電力出問題的時候我們就全部switch到所謂TWCA的憑證所以對我們這個對我們出發部來講實際上是完全沒有受政府的服務並沒有受影響不過中華電力發生這個事情確實是也讓我蠻意外的那當然就是說這個東西我相信中華電力內部也在在檢討中\n\n23\n00:08:26,641 --> 00:08:53,456\n我也跟中華電信要求就是說他們這個憑證現在暫時被發憑證不是憑證本身憑證本身還是有效是發憑證的功的這個能力被Google取消如果他取為發憑證如果明年還要取為發憑證因為重新申請發憑證需要六到九個月所以他們還要再重新申請那我有要求說中華電信一定要再下一次要再把這個憑證的能力拿回來所以這個東西我們有在後面會再去監督他但是我們在這個過程中\n\n24\n00:08:54,056 --> 00:09:17,376\n你講這句話我就支持你了嘛你就要求就對啦怎麼會跟我沒有關係契約關係沒有督導你就是要去督導啦這樣做得不對的他到底是人的問題你剛講嘛主要是管理的問題人的問題嘛覺得這個事情好像有點無所謂或者對於時間他沒有壓力很多原因當然內部的管理他們還是要去處理可是事情搞砸了你知道嗎你們是\n\n25\n00:09:18,517 --> 00:09:34,515\n你們等於說主管機關啊怎麼會說跟你們沒有關係啊所以我是覺得這一件事情對於我們數位部啊就好像講說你很意外但我覺得這種意外是不能夠再發生啊那你們現在有沒有把握它這個\n\n26\n00:09:35,782 --> 00:10:03,789\n不會再發生了這個以這個憑證來講我相信他們現在內部在努力那我們也會持續資產功能就是來把它進展讓我們知道我們希望就是說在明年剛講六到九個月嘛就明年最晚明年三月應該可以重新拿到這個發憑發憑證的這樣一個一個功能所以就是應該可以解決這個問題不過這個在這個過程中我們現在是用另外一家公司就TWC的憑證所以完全不影響政府的服務\n\n27\n00:10:04,389 --> 00:10:27,942\n好啦最後兩個建議啦說真的啦你這個主管機關不能啦你找人家蓋房子到底蓋得怎麼樣你們三不五時要去監督一下要去理解一下第二個是問題處理機制倒過來說他發生問題發生這麼久你們也回答說今年年初你們就知道了你們是很慢知道那是去年三四月就發生的事情也就是他在裡面一直搞在那邊拖他也不用跟你回報\n\n28\n00:10:29,222 --> 00:10:49,553\n你之前也不用知道如果你先知道你知道嗎你們的有一些主管機關你們專家說這個東西不能開玩笑你可以先提醒說我要拜託一下像你們委外不管任何的委外不能像有些飛彈射後不理其實搞錯了人家飛彈射出去都是那個電腦一直在看\n\n29\n00:10:50,473 --> 00:11:10,200\n你知道嗎雷達一直在偵測不是不理啊所以你們那個偵測他到底做的怎麼樣定期的檢查什麼樣的成績上問題你要回報你要回報不能夠到事情發生了我覺得在國際上面這是一個蠻笑話的建立一個信任不容易啦所以我要拜託我們數位部針對於你們相關的應該去監督的應該技術指導的應該提醒的要更加努力好不好好謝謝委員建議\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1749\t4691\t好 謝謝主席 有請黃部長請部長好 陸委員好好 部長直接跟您討論一下因為前一陣子這可以講做網路我們科技領域非常重要的一個事件在5月底Google宣布在中華電信的部分它的憑證的信任出了問題\n28123\t56108\t那他中間的一些理由啊特別講說過去一年對於中華電信相關的這個作為他的令人擔憂的行為模式中間可靠性下降啊有些缺失沒改善沒有達到預期這整整的原因就是Google移除這個中華電信的評論就是不信任那中華電信的初步的回答也讓人真的是\n57308\t82994\t蠻佩服的一句話大家不要緊張啦不要緊張為什麼呢下面中華電力第一次的回應因為只是部分的程序未能在新政策要求的實現內完成只是時間不夠啦方向都沒問題啦他也沒有講人家是給你一年的時間還是給你一個月的時間為什麼不夠這樣的你今天立場有兩個第一個\n85214\t104932\t你是一個我們台灣不管是數位安全資安甚至如果這個憑證會影響到產業發展要做生意種種的國際性問題你是這樣的一個主管你作為一個專家領域你對這個事情可以在旁邊作為第三者做一個評鑑好不好我先請你用一個你專業領域來對應中華電信\n107934\t129599\t這樣的的回答跟在國際上面的一個瀏覽器Google發生這樣的問題你能夠做個評鑑嗎中華電信出了什麼問題那個鮑委員我先講我們對這個事情的看法就基本上第一個這個事情不影響政府的所謂的治安因為這個他過去發了憑證跟那個跟我們在使用的憑證是完全沒有治安的問題\n130279\t155873\t他現在出問題是出在8月1號以後要重新發新的憑證Google不讓他發這是第一個那第二個就是說那個這個當然是這個所謂中華電信內部關聯問題他前陣子也有新聞就他們內部的處分那現在重點是那個我也跟Google跟中華電信討論過剛剛講政府我們有雙簽證所以都已經換了反正就完全沒有問題民間的憑證呢他們也答應如果到了8月1號之後\n156713\t184992\t有新的憑證需要如果需要轉他們會免費幫業者就產業界做轉所以基本上對台灣的資安是沒有受到影響但是中華電信在這過程中的一些未來怎麼去加強這個中華電信要再去檢討那他們也答應會在未來尤其是這個憑證他們希望能夠將來再取得發憑證的權利那這個他們內部會加緊進行去爭取這樣的權利部長你現在是以第三者的專家的領域來去評鑑中華電信這件事情\n186933\t200686\t但我是真的希望不要跟中華電信一樣把這個事情感覺很小沒有問題沒有影響我來幫你想像一下好不好這件事發生美國第一大龍頭AT&TAT&T的憑證信任系統\n205597\t233269\t假設啦假設被打槍或者德國的不管是德國歐洲的某個電信系統公司遇到這樣的問題這樣啦我們不講我們不要幫他解釋你會不會對於這個國家或這個領域你會覺得有幾時不信任的感覺我是覺得這件事情中華電信要檢討啦對我也相信你也支持一個人的信任要拚一輩子\n233829\t259088\t你知道吧 有時候做人處事我幾年還沒有辦法得到大部分人的信任那你在網路世界一個好啦 類國家的一個機構你要累積一點點的信任其實是不容易的我們真的是希望中華電信他能夠有這樣的一個體認啦他不說我就是一家公司啦 抱歉啦我跟你講這個抱歉是非常嚴重所以你自己覺得要改善但你覺得是\n260349\t283957\t專業的問題還是人的態度問題那主要是人的問題嘛所以他有很多的一個在中華電信裡面有很多的專家很多的IT人才他整體來處理這件事的專業我們看起來最後感覺是沒有問題他有能力處理但是只是人啊態度的問題那我是覺得到底是管理階層的問題或者中間的問題\n286758\t306028\t我倒是覺得因為這個問題比我們想像更大在網路世界其他國家怎麼樣去信任台灣的網路確實產生了一些影響我們再來看一下這個董事長過不到一個禮拜又說了鬆化電競的第二個立場\n307558\t328975\t還是拍誰啦就是以為被寄過來沒想到是直接退學了其實我聽到這個又有點怕你知道嗎因為我們把很多的一個重任交給中華電信數位發展部請你以第二種角色好不好因為在政府的伺服器數位憑證管理中心所謂的GTLS CA這個系統\n332858\t345611\t這個第一頁一清二楚主辦單位就是所謂主辦單位執行單位不管你們的合作模式怎麼樣都不重要啦都不重要那請你當事人這個身份你是主辦單位啊\n347313\t368800\t對不對那你這個事情委託他們不是我的意思就是說在這個的部分你寫得很清楚對於這種相關的一些憑證的規範甚至瀏覽去網路的論壇一堆專家都是相關的一些規則要去follow結果呢我就不去講了就是已經是一年前發生的事情了\n369580\t390145\t還在不同的瀏覽器對不對也許是Fivefox先發現這個不對嘛就有一些出現了一些問題所以這個時間是非常非常久然後咧在下面評論一啊他令人無法相信中華電信會可靠的遵守憑證遵守這個Business Rule\n390825\t405730\t你看看他這邊的在這個論壇裡面留校察看的給他們時間怎麼樣去改善相關的問題不斷的提醒而且不光是Google還有這個另外一家像Fivefox對不對\n406630\t421443\tMozila也在提醒他所以你現在遇到這樣的一個情況最後扯到的我就請問一下我們你是當事人我覺得這樣的政府我們今天給數位部真的非常多委外的預算\n422648\t439288\t所以你千萬不要跟我講一件事我委外之後不關我屁事那以後我抱歉我怎麼講髒話了那以後年底一說你委外委外他做對了對不對我們地方政府委要蓋個房子倒了還不關我的事啊\n440009\t456327\t建商 對不對 設計公司都不是我們這委外嘛對不對 我們委外辦一個跨年晚會啊 搞砸了還有不管我的事啊所以我跟你講 這當然是關你的事因為你是主管機關所以你 當你第一件事情我看到數位部的答案是說\n458049\t486979\t你剛剛跟他其實只是雇傭關係嘛你們為什麼要這樣打還是你們真的內心講說你們只是叫僱約契約的關係啊也沒有什麼督導的關係你要不要再回答一遍你們到底什麼關係那個報委員就是說事實上這個事情啊我剛講就是說因為憑證這個東西我們台灣有兩家公司可以發憑證所以我們跟兩家都有簽約所以他們我們都是委辦這兩家就給政府的政府單位憑證那所以呢當\n487839\t505820\t中華電力出問題的時候我們就全部switch到所謂TWCA的憑證所以對我們這個對我們出發部來講實際上是完全沒有受政府的服務並沒有受影響不過中華電力發生這個事情確實是也讓我蠻意外的那當然就是說這個東西我相信中華電力內部也在在檢討中\n506641\t533456\t我也跟中華電信要求就是說他們這個憑證現在暫時被發憑證不是憑證本身憑證本身還是有效是發憑證的功的這個能力被Google取消如果他取為發憑證如果明年還要取為發憑證因為重新申請發憑證需要六到九個月所以他們還要再重新申請那我有要求說中華電信一定要再下一次要再把這個憑證的能力拿回來所以這個東西我們有在後面會再去監督他但是我們在這個過程中\n534056\t557376\t你講這句話我就支持你了嘛 你就要求就對啦怎麼會跟我沒有關係 契約關係沒有督導 你就是要去督導啦這樣做得不對的 他到底是人的問題你剛講嘛 主要是管理的問題 人的問題嘛覺得這個事情好像有點無所謂或者對於時間他沒有壓力 很多原因當然內部的管理他們還是要去處理可是事情搞砸了 你知道嗎你們是\n558517\t574515\t你們等於說主管機關啊怎麼會說跟你們沒有關係啊所以我是覺得這一件事情對於我們數位部啊就好像講說你很意外但我覺得這種意外是不能夠再發生啊那你們現在有沒有把握它這個\n575782\t603789\t不會再發生了這個以這個憑證來講我相信他們現在內部在努力那我們也會持續資產功能就是來把它進展讓我們知道我們希望就是說在明年剛講六到九個月嘛就明年最晚明年三月應該可以重新拿到這個發憑發憑證的這樣一個一個功能所以就是應該可以解決這個問題不過這個在這個過程中我們現在是用另外一家公司就TWC的憑證所以完全不影響政府的服務\n604389\t627942\t好啦 最後兩個建議啦說真的啦 你這個主管機關不能啦 你找人家蓋房子到底蓋得怎麼樣你們三不五時要去監督一下 要去理解一下第二個是問題處理機制倒過來說 他發生問題發生這麼久你們也回答說今年年初你們就知道了你們是很慢知道 那是去年三四月就發生的事情也就是他在裡面一直搞 在那邊拖他也不用跟你回報\n629222\t649553\t你之前也不用知道 如果你先知道 你知道嗎你們的有一些主管機關 你們專家說這個東西不能開玩笑你可以先提醒 說我要拜託一下 像你們委外不管任何的委外 不能像有些飛彈射後不理其實搞錯了 人家飛彈射出去都是那個電腦一直在看\n650473\t670200\t你知道嗎雷達一直在偵測不是不理啊所以你們那個偵測他到底做的怎麼樣定期的檢查什麼樣的成績上問題你要回報你要回報不能夠到事情發生了我覺得在國際上面這是一個蠻笑話的建立一個信任不容易啦所以我要拜託我們數位部針對於你們相關的應該去監督的應該技術指導的應該提醒的要更加努力好不好好 謝謝委員建議\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 有請黃部長請部長好 陸委員好好 部長直接跟您討論一下因為前一陣子這可以講做網路我們科技領域非常重要的一個事件在5月底Google宣布在中華電信的部分它的憑證的信任出了問題\n那他中間的一些理由啊特別講說過去一年對於中華電信相關的這個作為他的令人擔憂的行為模式中間可靠性下降啊有些缺失沒改善沒有達到預期這整整的原因就是Google移除這個中華電信的評論就是不信任那中華電信的初步的回答也讓人真的是\n蠻佩服的一句話大家不要緊張啦不要緊張為什麼呢下面中華電力第一次的回應因為只是部分的程序未能在新政策要求的實現內完成只是時間不夠啦方向都沒問題啦他也沒有講人家是給你一年的時間還是給你一個月的時間為什麼不夠這樣的你今天立場有兩個第一個\n你是一個我們台灣不管是數位安全資安甚至如果這個憑證會影響到產業發展要做生意種種的國際性問題你是這樣的一個主管你作為一個專家領域你對這個事情可以在旁邊作為第三者做一個評鑑好不好我先請你用一個你專業領域來對應中華電信\n這樣的的回答跟在國際上面的一個瀏覽器Google發生這樣的問題你能夠做個評鑑嗎中華電信出了什麼問題那個鮑委員我先講我們對這個事情的看法就基本上第一個這個事情不影響政府的所謂的治安因為這個他過去發了憑證跟那個跟我們在使用的憑證是完全沒有治安的問題\n他現在出問題是出在8月1號以後要重新發新的憑證Google不讓他發這是第一個那第二個就是說那個這個當然是這個所謂中華電信內部關聯問題他前陣子也有新聞就他們內部的處分那現在重點是那個我也跟Google跟中華電信討論過剛剛講政府我們有雙簽證所以都已經換了反正就完全沒有問題民間的憑證呢他們也答應如果到了8月1號之後\n有新的憑證需要如果需要轉他們會免費幫業者就產業界做轉所以基本上對台灣的資安是沒有受到影響但是中華電信在這過程中的一些未來怎麼去加強這個中華電信要再去檢討那他們也答應會在未來尤其是這個憑證他們希望能夠將來再取得發憑證的權利那這個他們內部會加緊進行去爭取這樣的權利部長你現在是以第三者的專家的領域來去評鑑中華電信這件事情\n但我是真的希望不要跟中華電信一樣把這個事情感覺很小沒有問題沒有影響我來幫你想像一下好不好這件事發生美國第一大龍頭AT&TAT&T的憑證信任系統\n假設啦假設被打槍或者德國的不管是德國歐洲的某個電信系統公司遇到這樣的問題這樣啦我們不講我們不要幫他解釋你會不會對於這個國家或這個領域你會覺得有幾時不信任的感覺我是覺得這件事情中華電信要檢討啦對我也相信你也支持一個人的信任要拚一輩子\n你知道吧 有時候做人處事我幾年還沒有辦法得到大部分人的信任那你在網路世界一個好啦 類國家的一個機構你要累積一點點的信任其實是不容易的我們真的是希望中華電信他能夠有這樣的一個體認啦他不說我就是一家公司啦 抱歉啦我跟你講這個抱歉是非常嚴重所以你自己覺得要改善但你覺得是\n專業的問題還是人的態度問題那主要是人的問題嘛所以他有很多的一個在中華電信裡面有很多的專家很多的IT人才他整體來處理這件事的專業我們看起來最後感覺是沒有問題他有能力處理但是只是人啊態度的問題那我是覺得到底是管理階層的問題或者中間的問題\n我倒是覺得因為這個問題比我們想像更大在網路世界其他國家怎麼樣去信任台灣的網路確實產生了一些影響我們再來看一下這個董事長過不到一個禮拜又說了鬆化電競的第二個立場\n還是拍誰啦就是以為被寄過來沒想到是直接退學了其實我聽到這個又有點怕你知道嗎因為我們把很多的一個重任交給中華電信數位發展部請你以第二種角色好不好因為在政府的伺服器數位憑證管理中心所謂的GTLS CA這個系統\n這個第一頁一清二楚主辦單位就是所謂主辦單位執行單位不管你們的合作模式怎麼樣都不重要啦都不重要那請你當事人這個身份你是主辦單位啊\n對不對那你這個事情委託他們不是我的意思就是說在這個的部分你寫得很清楚對於這種相關的一些憑證的規範甚至瀏覽去網路的論壇一堆專家都是相關的一些規則要去follow結果呢我就不去講了就是已經是一年前發生的事情了\n還在不同的瀏覽器對不對也許是Fivefox先發現這個不對嘛就有一些出現了一些問題所以這個時間是非常非常久然後咧在下面評論一啊他令人無法相信中華電信會可靠的遵守憑證遵守這個Business Rule\n你看看他這邊的在這個論壇裡面留校察看的給他們時間怎麼樣去改善相關的問題不斷的提醒而且不光是Google還有這個另外一家像Fivefox對不對\nMozila也在提醒他所以你現在遇到這樣的一個情況最後扯到的我就請問一下我們你是當事人我覺得這樣的政府我們今天給數位部真的非常多委外的預算\n所以你千萬不要跟我講一件事我委外之後不關我屁事那以後我抱歉我怎麼講髒話了那以後年底一說你委外委外他做對了對不對我們地方政府委要蓋個房子倒了還不關我的事啊\n建商 對不對 設計公司都不是我們這委外嘛對不對 我們委外辦一個跨年晚會啊 搞砸了還有不管我的事啊所以我跟你講 這當然是關你的事因為你是主管機關所以你 當你第一件事情我看到數位部的答案是說\n你剛剛跟他其實只是雇傭關係嘛你們為什麼要這樣打還是你們真的內心講說你們只是叫僱約契約的關係啊也沒有什麼督導的關係你要不要再回答一遍你們到底什麼關係那個報委員就是說事實上這個事情啊我剛講就是說因為憑證這個東西我們台灣有兩家公司可以發憑證所以我們跟兩家都有簽約所以他們我們都是委辦這兩家就給政府的政府單位憑證那所以呢當\n中華電力出問題的時候我們就全部switch到所謂TWCA的憑證所以對我們這個對我們出發部來講實際上是完全沒有受政府的服務並沒有受影響不過中華電力發生這個事情確實是也讓我蠻意外的那當然就是說這個東西我相信中華電力內部也在在檢討中\n我也跟中華電信要求就是說他們這個憑證現在暫時被發憑證不是憑證本身憑證本身還是有效是發憑證的功的這個能力被Google取消如果他取為發憑證如果明年還要取為發憑證因為重新申請發憑證需要六到九個月所以他們還要再重新申請那我有要求說中華電信一定要再下一次要再把這個憑證的能力拿回來所以這個東西我們有在後面會再去監督他但是我們在這個過程中\n你講這句話我就支持你了嘛 你就要求就對啦怎麼會跟我沒有關係 契約關係沒有督導 你就是要去督導啦這樣做得不對的 他到底是人的問題你剛講嘛 主要是管理的問題 人的問題嘛覺得這個事情好像有點無所謂或者對於時間他沒有壓力 很多原因當然內部的管理他們還是要去處理可是事情搞砸了 你知道嗎你們是\n你們等於說主管機關啊怎麼會說跟你們沒有關係啊所以我是覺得這一件事情對於我們數位部啊就好像講說你很意外但我覺得這種意外是不能夠再發生啊那你們現在有沒有把握它這個\n不會再發生了這個以這個憑證來講我相信他們現在內部在努力那我們也會持續資產功能就是來把它進展讓我們知道我們希望就是說在明年剛講六到九個月嘛就明年最晚明年三月應該可以重新拿到這個發憑發憑證的這樣一個一個功能所以就是應該可以解決這個問題不過這個在這個過程中我們現在是用另外一家公司就TWC的憑證所以完全不影響政府的服務\n好啦 最後兩個建議啦說真的啦 你這個主管機關不能啦 你找人家蓋房子到底蓋得怎麼樣你們三不五時要去監督一下 要去理解一下第二個是問題處理機制倒過來說 他發生問題發生這麼久你們也回答說今年年初你們就知道了你們是很慢知道 那是去年三四月就發生的事情也就是他在裡面一直搞 在那邊拖他也不用跟你回報\n你之前也不用知道 如果你先知道 你知道嗎你們的有一些主管機關 你們專家說這個東西不能開玩笑你可以先提醒 說我要拜託一下 像你們委外不管任何的委外 不能像有些飛彈射後不理其實搞錯了 人家飛彈射出去都是那個電腦一直在看\n你知道嗎雷達一直在偵測不是不理啊所以你們那個偵測他到底做的怎麼樣定期的檢查什麼樣的成績上問題你要回報你要回報不能夠到事情發生了我覺得在國際上面這是一個蠻笑話的建立一個信任不容易啦所以我要拜託我們數位部針對於你們相關的應該去監督的應該技術指導的應該提醒的要更加努力好不好好 謝謝委員建議\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.749 --> 00:04.691\n好謝謝主席有請黃部長請部長好陸委員好好部長直接跟您討論一下因為前一陣子這可以講做網路我們科技領域非常重要的一個事件在5月底Google宣布在中華電信的部分它的憑證的信任出了問題\n\n00:28.123 --> 00:56.108\n那他中間的一些理由啊特別講說過去一年對於中華電信相關的這個作為他的令人擔憂的行為模式中間可靠性下降啊有些缺失沒改善沒有達到預期這整整的原因就是Google移除這個中華電信的評論就是不信任那中華電信的初步的回答也讓人真的是\n\n00:57.308 --> 01:22.994\n蠻佩服的一句話大家不要緊張啦不要緊張為什麼呢下面中華電力第一次的回應因為只是部分的程序未能在新政策要求的實現內完成只是時間不夠啦方向都沒問題啦他也沒有講人家是給你一年的時間還是給你一個月的時間為什麼不夠這樣的你今天立場有兩個第一個\n\n01:25.214 --> 01:44.932\n你是一個我們台灣不管是數位安全資安甚至如果這個憑證會影響到產業發展要做生意種種的國際性問題你是這樣的一個主管你作為一個專家領域你對這個事情可以在旁邊作為第三者做一個評鑑好不好我先請你用一個你專業領域來對應中華電信\n\n01:47.934 --> 02:09.599\n這樣的的回答跟在國際上面的一個瀏覽器Google發生這樣的問題你能夠做個評鑑嗎中華電信出了什麼問題那個鮑委員我先講我們對這個事情的看法就基本上第一個這個事情不影響政府的所謂的治安因為這個他過去發了憑證跟那個跟我們在使用的憑證是完全沒有治安的問題\n\n02:10.279 --> 02:35.873\n他現在出問題是出在8月1號以後要重新發新的憑證Google不讓他發這是第一個那第二個就是說那個這個當然是這個所謂中華電信內部關聯問題他前陣子也有新聞就他們內部的處分那現在重點是那個我也跟Google跟中華電信討論過剛剛講政府我們有雙簽證所以都已經換了反正就完全沒有問題民間的憑證呢他們也答應如果到了8月1號之後\n\n02:36.713 --> 03:04.992\n有新的憑證需要如果需要轉他們會免費幫業者就產業界做轉所以基本上對台灣的資安是沒有受到影響但是中華電信在這過程中的一些未來怎麼去加強這個中華電信要再去檢討那他們也答應會在未來尤其是這個憑證他們希望能夠將來再取得發憑證的權利那這個他們內部會加緊進行去爭取這樣的權利部長你現在是以第三者的專家的領域來去評鑑中華電信這件事情\n\n03:06.933 --> 03:20.686\n但我是真的希望不要跟中華電信一樣把這個事情感覺很小沒有問題沒有影響我來幫你想像一下好不好這件事發生美國第一大龍頭AT&TAT&T的憑證信任系統\n\n03:25.597 --> 03:53.269\n假設啦假設被打槍或者德國的不管是德國歐洲的某個電信系統公司遇到這樣的問題這樣啦我們不講我們不要幫他解釋你會不會對於這個國家或這個領域你會覺得有幾時不信任的感覺我是覺得這件事情中華電信要檢討啦對我也相信你也支持一個人的信任要拚一輩子\n\n03:53.829 --> 04:19.088\n你知道吧有時候做人處事我幾年還沒有辦法得到大部分人的信任那你在網路世界一個好啦類國家的一個機構你要累積一點點的信任其實是不容易的我們真的是希望中華電信他能夠有這樣的一個體認啦他不說我就是一家公司啦抱歉啦我跟你講這個抱歉是非常嚴重所以你自己覺得要改善但你覺得是\n\n04:20.349 --> 04:43.957\n專業的問題還是人的態度問題那主要是人的問題嘛所以他有很多的一個在中華電信裡面有很多的專家很多的IT人才他整體來處理這件事的專業我們看起來最後感覺是沒有問題他有能力處理但是只是人啊態度的問題那我是覺得到底是管理階層的問題或者中間的問題\n\n04:46.758 --> 05:06.028\n我倒是覺得因為這個問題比我們想像更大在網路世界其他國家怎麼樣去信任台灣的網路確實產生了一些影響我們再來看一下這個董事長過不到一個禮拜又說了鬆化電競的第二個立場\n\n05:07.558 --> 05:28.975\n還是拍誰啦就是以為被寄過來沒想到是直接退學了其實我聽到這個又有點怕你知道嗎因為我們把很多的一個重任交給中華電信數位發展部請你以第二種角色好不好因為在政府的伺服器數位憑證管理中心所謂的GTLSCA這個系統\n\n05:32.858 --> 05:45.611\n這個第一頁一清二楚主辦單位就是所謂主辦單位執行單位不管你們的合作模式怎麼樣都不重要啦都不重要那請你當事人這個身份你是主辦單位啊\n\n05:47.313 --> 06:08.800\n對不對那你這個事情委託他們不是我的意思就是說在這個的部分你寫得很清楚對於這種相關的一些憑證的規範甚至瀏覽去網路的論壇一堆專家都是相關的一些規則要去follow結果呢我就不去講了就是已經是一年前發生的事情了\n\n06:09.580 --> 06:30.145\n還在不同的瀏覽器對不對也許是Fivefox先發現這個不對嘛就有一些出現了一些問題所以這個時間是非常非常久然後咧在下面評論一啊他令人無法相信中華電信會可靠的遵守憑證遵守這個BusinessRule\n\n06:30.825 --> 06:45.730\n你看看他這邊的在這個論壇裡面留校察看的給他們時間怎麼樣去改善相關的問題不斷的提醒而且不光是Google還有這個另外一家像Fivefox對不對\n\n06:46.630 --> 07:01.443\nMozila也在提醒他所以你現在遇到這樣的一個情況最後扯到的我就請問一下我們你是當事人我覺得這樣的政府我們今天給數位部真的非常多委外的預算\n\n07:02.648 --> 07:19.288\n所以你千萬不要跟我講一件事我委外之後不關我屁事那以後我抱歉我怎麼講髒話了那以後年底一說你委外委外他做對了對不對我們地方政府委要蓋個房子倒了還不關我的事啊\n\n07:20.009 --> 07:36.327\n建商對不對設計公司都不是我們這委外嘛對不對我們委外辦一個跨年晚會啊搞砸了還有不管我的事啊所以我跟你講這當然是關你的事因為你是主管機關所以你當你第一件事情我看到數位部的答案是說\n\n07:38.049 --> 08:06.979\n你剛剛跟他其實只是雇傭關係嘛你們為什麼要這樣打還是你們真的內心講說你們只是叫僱約契約的關係啊也沒有什麼督導的關係你要不要再回答一遍你們到底什麼關係那個報委員就是說事實上這個事情啊我剛講就是說因為憑證這個東西我們台灣有兩家公司可以發憑證所以我們跟兩家都有簽約所以他們我們都是委辦這兩家就給政府的政府單位憑證那所以呢當\n\n08:07.839 --> 08:25.820\n中華電力出問題的時候我們就全部switch到所謂TWCA的憑證所以對我們這個對我們出發部來講實際上是完全沒有受政府的服務並沒有受影響不過中華電力發生這個事情確實是也讓我蠻意外的那當然就是說這個東西我相信中華電力內部也在在檢討中\n\n08:26.641 --> 08:53.456\n我也跟中華電信要求就是說他們這個憑證現在暫時被發憑證不是憑證本身憑證本身還是有效是發憑證的功的這個能力被Google取消如果他取為發憑證如果明年還要取為發憑證因為重新申請發憑證需要六到九個月所以他們還要再重新申請那我有要求說中華電信一定要再下一次要再把這個憑證的能力拿回來所以這個東西我們有在後面會再去監督他但是我們在這個過程中\n\n08:54.056 --> 09:17.376\n你講這句話我就支持你了嘛你就要求就對啦怎麼會跟我沒有關係契約關係沒有督導你就是要去督導啦這樣做得不對的他到底是人的問題你剛講嘛主要是管理的問題人的問題嘛覺得這個事情好像有點無所謂或者對於時間他沒有壓力很多原因當然內部的管理他們還是要去處理可是事情搞砸了你知道嗎你們是\n\n09:18.517 --> 09:34.515\n你們等於說主管機關啊怎麼會說跟你們沒有關係啊所以我是覺得這一件事情對於我們數位部啊就好像講說你很意外但我覺得這種意外是不能夠再發生啊那你們現在有沒有把握它這個\n\n09:35.782 --> 10:03.789\n不會再發生了這個以這個憑證來講我相信他們現在內部在努力那我們也會持續資產功能就是來把它進展讓我們知道我們希望就是說在明年剛講六到九個月嘛就明年最晚明年三月應該可以重新拿到這個發憑發憑證的這樣一個一個功能所以就是應該可以解決這個問題不過這個在這個過程中我們現在是用另外一家公司就TWC的憑證所以完全不影響政府的服務\n\n10:04.389 --> 10:27.942\n好啦最後兩個建議啦說真的啦你這個主管機關不能啦你找人家蓋房子到底蓋得怎麼樣你們三不五時要去監督一下要去理解一下第二個是問題處理機制倒過來說他發生問題發生這麼久你們也回答說今年年初你們就知道了你們是很慢知道那是去年三四月就發生的事情也就是他在裡面一直搞在那邊拖他也不用跟你回報\n\n10:29.222 --> 10:49.553\n你之前也不用知道如果你先知道你知道嗎你們的有一些主管機關你們專家說這個東西不能開玩笑你可以先提醒說我要拜託一下像你們委外不管任何的委外不能像有些飛彈射後不理其實搞錯了人家飛彈射出去都是那個電腦一直在看\n\n10:50.473 --> 11:10.200\n你知道嗎雷達一直在偵測不是不理啊所以你們那個偵測他到底做的怎麼樣定期的檢查什麼樣的成績上問題你要回報你要回報不能夠到事情發生了我覺得在國際上面這是一個蠻笑話的建立一個信任不容易啦所以我要拜託我們數位部針對於你們相關的應該去監督的應該技術指導的應該提醒的要更加努力好不好好謝謝委員建議\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.749,"end":4.691,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請黃部長請部長好 陸委員好好 部長直接跟您討論一下因為前一陣子這可以講做網路我們科技領域非常重要的一個事件在5月底Google宣布在中華電信的部分它的憑證的信任出了問題"},{"start":28.123,"end":56.108,"text":"那他中間的一些理由啊特別講說過去一年對於中華電信相關的這個作為他的令人擔憂的行為模式中間可靠性下降啊有些缺失沒改善沒有達到預期這整整的原因就是Google移除這個中華電信的評論就是不信任那中華電信的初步的回答也讓人真的是"},{"start":57.308,"end":82.994,"text":"蠻佩服的一句話大家不要緊張啦不要緊張為什麼呢下面中華電力第一次的回應因為只是部分的程序未能在新政策要求的實現內完成只是時間不夠啦方向都沒問題啦他也沒有講人家是給你一年的時間還是給你一個月的時間為什麼不夠這樣的你今天立場有兩個第一個"},{"start":85.214,"end":104.932,"text":"你是一個我們台灣不管是數位安全資安甚至如果這個憑證會影響到產業發展要做生意種種的國際性問題你是這樣的一個主管你作為一個專家領域你對這個事情可以在旁邊作為第三者做一個評鑑好不好我先請你用一個你專業領域來對應中華電信"},{"start":107.934,"end":129.599,"text":"這樣的的回答跟在國際上面的一個瀏覽器Google發生這樣的問題你能夠做個評鑑嗎中華電信出了什麼問題那個鮑委員我先講我們對這個事情的看法就基本上第一個這個事情不影響政府的所謂的治安因為這個他過去發了憑證跟那個跟我們在使用的憑證是完全沒有治安的問題"},{"start":130.279,"end":155.873,"text":"他現在出問題是出在8月1號以後要重新發新的憑證Google不讓他發這是第一個那第二個就是說那個這個當然是這個所謂中華電信內部關聯問題他前陣子也有新聞就他們內部的處分那現在重點是那個我也跟Google跟中華電信討論過剛剛講政府我們有雙簽證所以都已經換了反正就完全沒有問題民間的憑證呢他們也答應如果到了8月1號之後"},{"start":156.713,"end":184.992,"text":"有新的憑證需要如果需要轉他們會免費幫業者就產業界做轉所以基本上對台灣的資安是沒有受到影響但是中華電信在這過程中的一些未來怎麼去加強這個中華電信要再去檢討那他們也答應會在未來尤其是這個憑證他們希望能夠將來再取得發憑證的權利那這個他們內部會加緊進行去爭取這樣的權利部長你現在是以第三者的專家的領域來去評鑑中華電信這件事情"},{"start":186.933,"end":200.686,"text":"但我是真的希望不要跟中華電信一樣把這個事情感覺很小沒有問題沒有影響我來幫你想像一下好不好這件事發生美國第一大龍頭AT&TAT&T的憑證信任系統"},{"start":205.597,"end":233.269,"text":"假設啦假設被打槍或者德國的不管是德國歐洲的某個電信系統公司遇到這樣的問題這樣啦我們不講我們不要幫他解釋你會不會對於這個國家或這個領域你會覺得有幾時不信任的感覺我是覺得這件事情中華電信要檢討啦對我也相信你也支持一個人的信任要拚一輩子"},{"start":233.829,"end":259.088,"text":"你知道吧 有時候做人處事我幾年還沒有辦法得到大部分人的信任那你在網路世界一個好啦 類國家的一個機構你要累積一點點的信任其實是不容易的我們真的是希望中華電信他能夠有這樣的一個體認啦他不說我就是一家公司啦 抱歉啦我跟你講這個抱歉是非常嚴重所以你自己覺得要改善但你覺得是"},{"start":260.349,"end":283.957,"text":"專業的問題還是人的態度問題那主要是人的問題嘛所以他有很多的一個在中華電信裡面有很多的專家很多的IT人才他整體來處理這件事的專業我們看起來最後感覺是沒有問題他有能力處理但是只是人啊態度的問題那我是覺得到底是管理階層的問題或者中間的問題"},{"start":286.758,"end":306.028,"text":"我倒是覺得因為這個問題比我們想像更大在網路世界其他國家怎麼樣去信任台灣的網路確實產生了一些影響我們再來看一下這個董事長過不到一個禮拜又說了鬆化電競的第二個立場"},{"start":307.558,"end":328.975,"text":"還是拍誰啦就是以為被寄過來沒想到是直接退學了其實我聽到這個又有點怕你知道嗎因為我們把很多的一個重任交給中華電信數位發展部請你以第二種角色好不好因為在政府的伺服器數位憑證管理中心所謂的GTLS CA這個系統"},{"start":332.858,"end":345.611,"text":"這個第一頁一清二楚主辦單位就是所謂主辦單位執行單位不管你們的合作模式怎麼樣都不重要啦都不重要那請你當事人這個身份你是主辦單位啊"},{"start":347.313,"end":368.8,"text":"對不對那你這個事情委託他們不是我的意思就是說在這個的部分你寫得很清楚對於這種相關的一些憑證的規範甚至瀏覽去網路的論壇一堆專家都是相關的一些規則要去follow結果呢我就不去講了就是已經是一年前發生的事情了"},{"start":369.58,"end":390.145,"text":"還在不同的瀏覽器對不對也許是Fivefox先發現這個不對嘛就有一些出現了一些問題所以這個時間是非常非常久然後咧在下面評論一啊他令人無法相信中華電信會可靠的遵守憑證遵守這個Business Rule"},{"start":390.825,"end":405.73,"text":"你看看他這邊的在這個論壇裡面留校察看的給他們時間怎麼樣去改善相關的問題不斷的提醒而且不光是Google還有這個另外一家像Fivefox對不對"},{"start":406.63,"end":421.443,"text":"Mozila也在提醒他所以你現在遇到這樣的一個情況最後扯到的我就請問一下我們你是當事人我覺得這樣的政府我們今天給數位部真的非常多委外的預算"},{"start":422.648,"end":439.288,"text":"所以你千萬不要跟我講一件事我委外之後不關我屁事那以後我抱歉我怎麼講髒話了那以後年底一說你委外委外他做對了對不對我們地方政府委要蓋個房子倒了還不關我的事啊"},{"start":440.009,"end":456.327,"text":"建商 對不對 設計公司都不是我們這委外嘛對不對 我們委外辦一個跨年晚會啊 搞砸了還有不管我的事啊所以我跟你講 這當然是關你的事因為你是主管機關所以你 當你第一件事情我看到數位部的答案是說"},{"start":458.049,"end":486.979,"text":"你剛剛跟他其實只是雇傭關係嘛你們為什麼要這樣打還是你們真的內心講說你們只是叫僱約契約的關係啊也沒有什麼督導的關係你要不要再回答一遍你們到底什麼關係那個報委員就是說事實上這個事情啊我剛講就是說因為憑證這個東西我們台灣有兩家公司可以發憑證所以我們跟兩家都有簽約所以他們我們都是委辦這兩家就給政府的政府單位憑證那所以呢當"},{"start":487.839,"end":505.82,"text":"中華電力出問題的時候我們就全部switch到所謂TWCA的憑證所以對我們這個對我們出發部來講實際上是完全沒有受政府的服務並沒有受影響不過中華電力發生這個事情確實是也讓我蠻意外的那當然就是說這個東西我相信中華電力內部也在在檢討中"},{"start":506.641,"end":533.456,"text":"我也跟中華電信要求就是說他們這個憑證現在暫時被發憑證不是憑證本身憑證本身還是有效是發憑證的功的這個能力被Google取消如果他取為發憑證如果明年還要取為發憑證因為重新申請發憑證需要六到九個月所以他們還要再重新申請那我有要求說中華電信一定要再下一次要再把這個憑證的能力拿回來所以這個東西我們有在後面會再去監督他但是我們在這個過程中"},{"start":534.056,"end":557.376,"text":"你講這句話我就支持你了嘛 你就要求就對啦怎麼會跟我沒有關係 契約關係沒有督導 你就是要去督導啦這樣做得不對的 他到底是人的問題你剛講嘛 主要是管理的問題 人的問題嘛覺得這個事情好像有點無所謂或者對於時間他沒有壓力 很多原因當然內部的管理他們還是要去處理可是事情搞砸了 你知道嗎你們是"},{"start":558.517,"end":574.515,"text":"你們等於說主管機關啊怎麼會說跟你們沒有關係啊所以我是覺得這一件事情對於我們數位部啊就好像講說你很意外但我覺得這種意外是不能夠再發生啊那你們現在有沒有把握它這個"},{"start":575.782,"end":603.789,"text":"不會再發生了這個以這個憑證來講我相信他們現在內部在努力那我們也會持續資產功能就是來把它進展讓我們知道我們希望就是說在明年剛講六到九個月嘛就明年最晚明年三月應該可以重新拿到這個發憑發憑證的這樣一個一個功能所以就是應該可以解決這個問題不過這個在這個過程中我們現在是用另外一家公司就TWC的憑證所以完全不影響政府的服務"},{"start":604.389,"end":627.942,"text":"好啦 最後兩個建議啦說真的啦 你這個主管機關不能啦 你找人家蓋房子到底蓋得怎麼樣你們三不五時要去監督一下 要去理解一下第二個是問題處理機制倒過來說 他發生問題發生這麼久你們也回答說今年年初你們就知道了你們是很慢知道 那是去年三四月就發生的事情也就是他在裡面一直搞 在那邊拖他也不用跟你回報"},{"start":629.222,"end":649.553,"text":"你之前也不用知道 如果你先知道 你知道嗎你們的有一些主管機關 你們專家說這個東西不能開玩笑你可以先提醒 說我要拜託一下 像你們委外不管任何的委外 不能像有些飛彈射後不理其實搞錯了 人家飛彈射出去都是那個電腦一直在看"},{"start":650.473,"end":670.2,"text":"你知道嗎雷達一直在偵測不是不理啊所以你們那個偵測他到底做的怎麼樣定期的檢查什麼樣的成績上問題你要回報你要回報不能夠到事情發生了我覺得在國際上面這是一個蠻笑話的建立一個信任不容易啦所以我要拜託我們數位部針對於你們相關的應該去監督的應該技術指導的應該提醒的要更加努力好不好好 謝謝委員建議"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":889,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時58分）謝謝主席，有請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：魯委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，直接跟您討論一下，因為前一陣子在網路科技領域發生非常重要的事件，在5月底Google宣布中華電信的憑證信任出了問題，它的理由特別說到，過去一年對於中華電信相關的作為，觀察到一些令人擔憂的行為模式，包括可靠性下降，有些缺失沒改善，沒有達到預期，所以Google移除中華電信憑證的整體原因就是不信任。","不過中華電信初步的回答也真的讓人滿佩服的，一句話，大家不要緊張、不要緊張，為什麼呢？中華電信第一次的回應是，只是部分程序未能在Chrome新政策要求的時限內完成，只是時間不夠啦！方向都沒問題啦！它也沒有講人家是給你一年的時間，還是給你一個月的時間，所以為什麼不夠？","你今天的立場有兩個，第一個，我們臺灣不管是數位安全、資安，甚至如果這個憑證會影響到產業發展、要做生意等種種國際性的問題，你身這樣一個主管，作為一個專家領域，你對這件事情可以在旁邊以第三者的角度做一個評鑑，好不好？我先請你用你的專業領域，對於中華電信這樣的回答，以及在國際上面的一個瀏覽器Google發生這樣的問題，你能夠做個評鑑嗎？中華電信出了什麼問題？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我先講我們對這件事情的看法，基本上，第一個，這件事情不影響政府的資安，因為它過去發的憑證跟我們在使用的憑證是完全沒有資安的問題，它現在問題是出在8月1日以後要重新發新的憑證，Google不讓它發，這是第一個。","第二個，這個當然是中華電信內部管理的問題，它前陣子也有新聞，就是他們有內部的處分。現在的重點是，我也跟中華電信討論過，剛剛講政府有雙憑證，所以都已經換了，完全沒有問題。至於民間的憑證，他們也答應如果到了8月1日之後有新的憑證需要，如果需要轉，他們會免費幫業者，也就是幫產業界來轉，所以基本上臺灣的資安沒有受到影響。但是在未來怎麼去加強，中華電信需要再去檢討，他們也答應會在未來，尤其是他們希望將來能夠再取得發憑證的權利，所以他們內部會加緊進行去爭取這樣的權利。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，你現在是以第三者的專家領域去評鑑中華電信這件事情，但我是真的希望你不要跟中華電信一樣，覺得這件事情很小，說這個沒有問題、沒有影響。我來幫你想像一下，好不好？這件事發生在美國第一大龍頭AT&T的憑證信任系統……"],["黃部長彥男：發憑證系統。"],["魯委員明哲：假設啦！假設被打槍，或者是德國、歐洲的某個電信系統公司遇到這樣的問題，這樣啦！我們不要幫它解釋，則你對於這個國家或這個領域，會不會覺得有幾絲不信任的感覺？我是覺得這件事情，我相信你也……"],["黃部長彥男：中華電信要檢討啦！"],["魯委員明哲：對，我相信你也支持啊！一個人的信任要拚一輩子，你知道嗎？有時候在做人處事上，我幾年下來還沒有辦法得到大部分人的信任，那你在網路世界、一個類國家的機構，要累積一點點的信任其實是不容易的，我們真的是希望中華電信能夠有這樣的體認，而不是說我就是一家公司啦！歹勢啦！我跟你講，這個「歹勢」是非常嚴重，所以你自己覺得要改善，但部長認為是專業的問題，還是人的態度問題？"],["黃部長彥男：這是管理的問題。"],["魯委員明哲：就是管理，好，那主要是人的問題嘛！在中華電信裡面有很多的專家、很多的IT人才，它整體來處理這件事的專業，我們看起來感覺是沒有問題，它有能力處理，但是只是人、態度的問題，到底是管理階層的問題或者中間的問題？我倒是覺得這個問題比我們想像的更大，在網路世界其他國家怎麼樣去信任臺灣的網路，確實產生了一些影響。","我們再來看一下，中華電信董事長過不到一個禮拜又說了中華電信的第二個立場，還是歹勢啦！以為被記過，沒想到是直接退學啦！其實我聽到這個又有點怕，你知道嗎？因為我們把很多重任交給中華電信，數位發展部請你以第二種角色，好不好？因為在政府伺服器數位憑證管理中心，所謂的GTLSCA系統，在第1頁寫得一清二楚，主辦單位就是數位部，然後執行單位，不管你們的合作模式怎麼樣都不重要啦！請你以當事人的身分，因為你是主辦單位啊！你這件事情委託他們，我的意思是說，在這個部分也寫得很清楚，對於相關的憑證規範，甚至瀏覽器、網路論壇的一堆專家，相關的一些規則都要去follow，結果呢？我不必去講了！都已經是一年前發生的事情，還在不同的瀏覽器，對不對？尤其是Firefox先發現，這個不對嘛！就已經出現了一些問題，所以這個時間是非常非常久了。在下面的評論1提到「令人無法相信中華電信會可靠的遵守憑證、遵守這個bussiness rule」。你看看在這個論壇中還有提出要留校察看的、要給他們時間改善的，相關問題不斷的提醒，而且不光是Google，還有像是Fivefox、Mozilla也都在提醒它。現在遇到這樣的情況，因為你是當事人，我就請問一下，今天我們真的是給數位部非常多的委外預算，所以你千萬不要告訴我，委外之後不關你屁事！哇操！抱歉，我怎麼講髒話了。以後編列預算，地方政府委外蓋的房子倒了都不關我的事啊！因為建商或設計公司都是委外嘛！對不對？委外辦一個跨年晚會，搞砸了也不關我的事啊！但是，我要告訴你，這個當然是關你的事，因為你是主管機關。","針對第一件事，我看到數位部的答案是你與它其實僅為僱傭關係，為什麼你們要這樣回答？或是你們內心真的認為雙方只是契約關係，並沒有什麼督導關係？你要不要再回答一遍，你們到底是什麼關係？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，關於這個事情，我剛剛講過臺灣有兩家公司可以發憑證，而我們與兩家都有簽約，委託這兩家給政府單位憑證，當中華電信出問題之後，我們就全部switch到TWCA的憑證，因此，對我們數發部來講，事實上政府的服務並沒有受影響。不過，中華電信發生這樣的事情，確實也讓我滿意外的，但我相信中華電信內部針對這件事情也正在檢討中，而且我也要求中華電信，針對發憑證這件事情，不是憑證，因為憑證本身還是有效的，現在是發憑證的權力被Google取消，重新申請需要6個月至9個月，為了明年能將發憑證的權力再拿回來，所以他們還要再重新申請。我也要求中華電信，下次一定要把發憑證的權力拿回來，因此，之後我們會再監督它，但是我們在過程中……"],["魯委員明哲：部長，你講這句話，我就支持你了嘛！你要求就對啦！怎麼會說與你們是契約關係，並沒有督導關係，你就是要去督導啦！像這樣做得不對的，到底是人的問題或其他的問題，你剛剛講了主要是管理的問題、是人的問題嘛！覺得這件事情好像有點無所謂，或是對時間似乎沒有壓力，很多的原因，當然內部的管理還是要處理，但是現在事情搞砸了，你知道嗎？你們等於是主管機關，怎麼會說與你們沒有關係啊？這件事情對於數位部而言，就像你說的感到很意外，但我覺得這種意外不能夠再發生啊！現在你們有沒有把握不會再發生？"],["黃部長彥男：以這個憑證來講，我相信他們內部正在努力，而我們也會持續要求他們告知相關的進展，剛剛說過重新申請需要6至9個月，所以我們希望最晚在明年3月可以重新拿到發憑證的權力，應該就能解決這個問題。不過，在這個過程中，我們會使用另外一家公司，也就是TWCA的憑證，所以完全不影響政府的服務。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦！最後兩個建議，說真的，身為主管機關，就像找人家蓋房子，到底蓋得怎麼樣，三不五時要去監督一下、要去理解一下。第二個是問題處理機制，倒過來說，它的問題已經發生這麼久，你們也回答說今年年初就知道了，但你們獲知的時間也是很晚，那是去年3、4月就發生的事情。你們就任由它在那邊一直搞、一直拖，而且它也不用向你回報，你知道嗎？你們有些主管機關、有些專家都說這個東西不能開玩笑，如果你能先知道就可以先做提醒，所以我要拜託一下，無論是任何的委外，不能像有些飛彈射後不理啊！其實搞錯了，人家飛彈射出去之後都是經由電腦進行監看，你知道嗎？雷達一直進行偵測，不是不理啊！因此，你們那個偵測到底做得怎麼樣，包括定期的檢查，什麼樣層級以上的問題要回報，不能等到事情發生才要處理。我覺得這件事在國際上是一個笑話，建立一個信任不容易，所以我要拜託數位部，針對相關應該監督的、應該技術指導的、應該提醒的，都要更加努力，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":442,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-16","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林國成","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","葛如鈞","劉書彬","黃健豪","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","魯明哲","廖先翔","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男就「推動 AI 之產業發展政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146001_00016"}}}