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00:01:12,443\n這個部長你要思考而且要最快的速度趕快的來實質上的來告訴國人如何做到政府怎麼做部長你剛剛沒有講完如果像剛剛那樣所謂的工具被濫用怎麼辦\n\n4\n00:01:13,203 --> 00:01:27,693\n所以剛剛講說現在發生問題是因為有人就是詐騙居然去跟跟有人去借所以就是說現在就是說為了防止這東西你要確定在使用自然平衡所以是本人在使用那所以像比如說我們現在提款卡提款卡現在去銀行領錢\n\n5\n00:01:29,048 --> 00:01:46,291\n像有些ATM機器會做影像辨識辨識你用卡片這個人是本人以後自然平常使用也要有同樣的方法那可以是影像辨識你現在這樣子在這裡回答本席說是這樣子的方法那最重要的是第一個有沒有公告\n\n6\n00:01:46,932 --> 00:02:01,837\n第二個有沒有跨部會去協商協調如何最快的速度來建立你講的這個機制而且呢是能夠落實的是能夠宣導的對銀行開戶昨天金管會就已經在討論了昨天跟金管會討論討論出結果了嗎就是\n\n7\n00:02:08,171 --> 00:02:35,464\n那自然人憑證又是誰發給的我相信你也應該知道啊報告委員今天早上金管會有召開各部會來開會我們蘇華部也有參與現在正在開會那我希望等一下會後可以告訴我開會的結果我想這個牽涉到非常大的問題而且關乎我們民眾的權益我今天要跟你講的就是詐騙為什麼呢我給你看一個數字\n\n8\n00:02:36,806 --> 00:03:04,055\n我們在4月份的時候有宣傳說我們打造有一定的一個績效在大概半年的這個詐騙的財損降了48.8%那說我們精準打擊見效好我看到數字確實有降下來要給我們打造國家隊鼓鼓掌也要謝謝數位發展部但是我再進一步的來看從你們宣布了3月4月5月來數字又增加了\n\n9\n00:03:05,135 --> 00:03:10,819\n數字又增加了被詐騙的財損的金額呢又從了70.9億今年的3月70.9億到4月的76億5000多萬到5月的時候我們看到又變87億2000多萬那表示又在增加那部長你怎麼看\n\n10\n00:03:25,099 --> 00:03:52,780\n確實有看到這樣的數據這個數據我們也在深切檢討那現在就是說確實要再更努力去打仗因為詐騙群也一直在演變我們有很多的方法他們也在變尤其是現在詐騙集團也慢慢用一些技術像AI的技術在做詐騙所以這個就是一個剛剛講是好人跟壞人的鬥爭那他們壞人一直在進步中所以我們也是要努力所以我們好人也要進步啊\n\n11\n00:03:53,541 --> 00:04:03,068\n對不對那我們進步的速度還要比壞人進步的速度快才行啊所以我們有在努力在鋼場就技術面那如果我們有在努力我們再給你看一下來\n\n12\n00:04:06,124 --> 00:04:31,751\n那個上個月我想也有其他委員關心過這個網路的詐騙呢其中一個來自Meta集團的臉書那廣告資訊的揭露不完全你們依這個這個防詐的一個條例喔這個有開罰100萬開罰100萬我想多數的委員都不滿意因為呢我看到法令規定是50到1000萬結果你只挑了一個\n\n13\n00:04:32,793 --> 00:04:59,396\n比最低值再高一點點的一百萬那問題是能不能有嚇阻作用或者是能不能讓這個平臺雙方有聽一個官員說依照我們的法規制度依照我們政府單位要求能夠盡速的把這些這個廣告揭露不實的這個問題能夠的有迅速處理的機制目前看起來沒有為什麼因為呢在你們\n\n14\n00:05:00,775 --> 00:05:29,043\n5月22號見報說開罰100萬之後6月5號你們速發部又收到了23件這個Meta網路的廣告揭露不全的一個案子那部長你自己怎麼看那個程序上就是收到案子以後我們會檢調單位一起對這案子來做一個審查審查完之後會再給Meta一個禮拜的時間做他們申訴一個禮拜對那申訴完了現在已經有在進行下一個動作請署長說明\n\n15\n00:05:31,035 --> 00:05:51,923\n那署長跟委員報告那這個23案目前看到還是在5月初的那Meta因為上次的開罰我要跟你講啦你現在看到是5月初的啦我相信到現在6月十幾號6月中旬一定還有其他案子啦是是是那Meta現在已經95%已經完成這個法尊的部分剩下5%他們現在加緊腳步剩下5%沒有法尊的部分是哪5%\n\n16\n00:05:58,306 --> 00:06:05,033\n就是在你用什麼樣的一個角度來告訴我們Meta已經95%已經有法尊了剩下5%沒有那5%沒有是什麼5%的部分是在它的廣告的一個版位有一個網路的一個版位它那邊因為比較複雜一點還在處理\n\n17\n00:06:18,789 --> 00:06:34,464\n比較複雜比較還在處理那問題是這個在我們的法尊的要求裡面它本來就該處理你自己看喔這個我們社群平台沒有辦法百分之百的遵循我們台灣的法規制度的話它造成的是什麼我跟你講啦光是\n\n18\n00:06:35,225 --> 00:06:38,587\n有法尊的話都還會有詐騙集團剛剛部長講的這個變形那越變的技術越來越好那我們都還不見得跟得上那如果還沒有百分之百遵循法尊那現在我們警政署告訴我們第一個就是未完成實名制或實名制不實沒有落實第二個詐騙廣告內容持續的變體\n\n19\n00:06:58,780 --> 00:07:26,444\n第三個廣告雖然通知下架但明顯為詐騙廣告人持續的上刊跟播這個第三點這三點都是警政署指出來的喔而且是六月份這個月才指出來的喔那數位發展部你怎麼看署長是跟委員報告目前是這個看播者的資訊沒有揭露的所以目前開罰都是真的至於實名制他目前已經符合了\n\n20\n00:07:27,054 --> 00:07:47,968\n實名制有符合啊是那我就跟你講囉你不要認為你自己認為符合囉如果有不符合或者是說我們還沒有做到位的我們要檢討喔我從去年不斷的在要求我給你看一個第一個是最近媒體有說我們的Trade到底有沒有包含在這個廣告實名制的納管平台裡面我們在討論當中目前沒有目前沒有現在正在討論當中要討論多久\n\n21\n00:07:54,264 --> 00:08:03,871\n我們有兩個指標一個是他這個規模規模已經符合另外一個是他的他有廣告而且被用來當詐騙的風險這個也已經有啦這個媒體也有舉例很多啊那討論上大家也都討論很多啊甚至媒體都有一個數字叫做發生近兩千案啊我就又去問了一下媒體說那這個發生近兩千案到底是從哪裡得到這個數據警政署\n\n22\n00:08:18,755 --> 00:08:38,533\n所以你跟警政署一定有跨部會的聯繫平台嘛所以你看到目前為止警政署說Trade已經變成詐騙的新平台發生了將近2000件我跟你講這個數字是以4月開始登廣告到現在6月短短兩個月的時間喔兩個月不到的時間就2000件喔\n\n23\n00:08:42,316 --> 00:08:46,639\n那如果這樣子的速度還不夠我們會盡快啟動程序我們接下來就會馬上所以你到底有沒有啟動程序了啦我們其實有在有在討論的沒有你說這樣不清楚到底有沒有啟動程序如果要把它納管\n\n24\n00:08:56,021 --> 00:09:22,748\n要啟動什麼程序這第一個那程序的過程到底有哪些需要多久時間因為在你們的這個一定規模是網路廣告平台的計算基準總說明裡面有講到一個我們可以即時檢討更新管納管的業者名單所以即時檢討更新在我的中文解讀裡面是你現在就可以宣布可以做啦那你要討論多久\n\n25\n00:09:24,414 --> 00:09:27,818\n因為剛剛講被用來做詐騙的風險我們會再跟165這邊求證之後我們就馬上所以媒體已經講那麼多天了你們還沒有求證喔\n\n26\n00:09:35,095 --> 00:10:03,032\n還在求證當中是不可以這樣啦不對那個委員我回去會跟他們再好好的檢討這個流程我們會盡快啦這個確實是我看到的這個媒體來源包括是電子媒體平面媒體都在四月份甚至六月十五就是前幾天啦上個禮拜的事情啦好不好委員這個回去我們再跟我們素產署再加速這個過程這個流程那早點把這個東西看要如果要納管就早點納管\n\n27\n00:10:03,632 --> 00:10:27,648\n你給我一個時間點上面的說明是即時檢討更新喔一個月內一個月你還要一個月內都已經告訴你有發生兩千案了都已經告訴你這個Trade平台是在Meta集團裡面的這個大家眾所皆知在一定的規模你也告訴我有喔\n\n28\n00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:55,787\n你給警政署求證發生多少件的這個需要一個月喔跟委員報告就是我們會在兩個禮拜完成但是因為他還是有一些一些程序要比如我們要找專家學者來認定等等的那找司法單位共同來參與所以這個可能是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間兩個禮拜我希望更快啦因為你剛剛這樣跟我講表示你們跟警政署還沒有研商啦連求證這個\n\n29\n00:10:57,435 --> 00:11:14,098\n按個案數字你都還沒有求證啊所以呢你這個效率啊齁沒藥沒快我們是沒你的事情一樣這個我不能接受啊部長這個不是今天發生的新聞喔這個已經上個禮拜的新聞甚至四月份就有人點出來了喔\n\n30\n00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:36,076\n那個稅的納管我想我們禁訴啦那我再跟他們要求就是那就剛剛講是說目前他們是說這個有一些程序上可以大概需要兩個禮拜我想兩個禮拜之內把它完成好那最後你剛剛講的除了這個稅的納管我們呢尊重程序但是我認為要快喔詐騙裡面還有一個你們還沒做到的\n\n31\n00:11:37,337 --> 00:12:02,144\n雖然我們現在叫廣告實名制我們現在治安院也有所謂的這個AI機器人百萬機器人大軍在看我們說網路上這個投放廣告是不是詐騙廣告這個第一個我可以肯定但是第二個做不可以做一半啦只要做完整啦什麼叫做一半我們看到的是以我詢問出來的你們的機制\n\n32\n00:12:04,261 --> 00:12:22,564\n這個AI百萬機器人去網路上來海巡巡邏了好像有疑似這個詐騙廣告他可以來舉發舉發了之後呢當然了需要有認定需要認定了之後認定了之後他這個詐騙的內容是歸哪一個部位管你們會去通知\n\n33\n00:12:23,365 --> 00:12:48,109\n但是通知了之後如果確定是詐騙的訊息你們在你們現在的這一個叫做詐騙通報查詢網上呢只有告訴我們說不會譬如說這一則我找到了叫做金管會已經確認這是詐騙訊息已通知FB移除但是我要問的是到底有沒有移除\n\n34\n00:12:48,709 --> 00:13:13,456\n到底有沒有下架什麼時間有沒有時效可以告訴我他真的已經移除真的已經下架了我找到一個例子又在旁邊這個美女這個美女呢她呢在她的粉專上她裡面就是在告訴你要投資理財被認定是詐騙廣告那也被通報了但是呢被通報了之後呢\n\n35\n00:13:15,745 --> 00:13:35,582\n很抱歉我現在在網路上還是可以看到他就是說我雖然通報了知道這是詐騙廣告6月12號也通知下架了但是第一個我不知道有沒有下架有沒有移除目前影片還在連結還在粉專也都還在也沒有下架啊這個請那個市長回答\n\n36\n00:13:38,035 --> 00:13:48,566\nOK如同委員所講的事實上現在在臉書上詐騙集團的操作方法它其實分成三個階段第一個它會設立一些帳號然後這些帳號會去開粉專粉專裡面它會投放一些詐騙廣告那我們現在\n\n37\n00:13:53,191 --> 00:14:21,640\n目前政府跟民眾能看到的都是那個詐騙的廣告還有這些粉專我們看不到他的來源就是那個臉書的那些帳號所以我們現在正密集的跟Meta正在做協商那我們也直接找了他美國的總部的人我們在討論那要求就是說我們在通報以後他又必須把這個來源最終的來源這些帳號直接把它移除那現在那個Meta已經答應他們會進行這樣的工作\n\n38\n00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:36,626\nMeta有答應那他們有答應有多少多久的時間內要回覆給我們什麼時候做到是據他們的說法他們已經在執行了那這件事情當然是說因為Meta整個產品非常非常複雜\n\n39\n00:14:37,846 --> 00:15:04,036\n然後他會一步一步來做那這件事情我們正密切地正在督促他們要把這個事情確實落實我相信你我也希望能夠做到那我也希望在這個詐騙通報的查詢網裡面那我們是不是可以增加一個功能就是可以嫁接Meta他什麼時候真的移除什麼時候真的下架甚至連源頭通通給他下架移除我們在我們的這個詐騙通報查詢網上可不可以看得到\n\n40\n00:15:05,237 --> 00:15:29,899\n這是增加國人對我們的信心現在我們網站通報查詢網要求Meta把詐騙廣告移除的時候我們都還必須用人工的方式去檢查有沒有確實移除那我們現在也已經正式跟美國的Meta總部提出這個要求要求他們開放程式的API讓我們能用程式的方法自動去檢查它是不是已經下架這個我們已經向他正式提出要求了\n\n41\n00:15:30,539 --> 00:15:47,963\n拜託我希望能夠達成我希望可以看到有看到讓國人真正知道政府有在做事數位發展部在專業上在技術上甚至在民心想要根除詐騙的這樣子的一個決心裡面我可以看得到起碼從這個詐騙通報查詢網裡面我可以看到動作好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1578\t3858\t好 謝謝趙偉 我們請黃部長請部長好 賀偉好部長 剛剛在講到自然人憑證我們雖然是數位大國 但是呢阻絕詐騙最重要網路的詐騙到現在還橫行那甚至我們國人對於這個詐騙這個行為是深惡痛絕\n30524\t55776\t所以我們才有所謂的打炸國家隊那這個國家隊裡面重中之重又是我們的數位發展部被期待最多所以第一個剛剛講的自然人憑證所謂的很多我們現在在行政單位跟我們國人習以為常的這些數位的一個工具那如何能夠讓它第一個資安防護做得更好\n57277\t72443\t這個部長你要思考而且要最快的速度趕快的來實質上的來告訴國人如何做到政府怎麼做部長你剛剛沒有講完如果像剛剛那樣所謂的工具被濫用怎麼辦\n73203\t87693\t所以剛剛講說現在發生問題是因為有人就是詐騙居然去跟跟有人去借所以就是說現在就是說為了防止這東西你要確定在使用自然平衡所以是本人在使用那所以像比如說我們現在提款卡提款卡現在去銀行領錢\n89048\t106291\t像有些ATM機器會做影像辨識辨識你用卡片這個人是本人以後自然平常使用也要有同樣的方法那可以是影像辨識你現在這樣子在這裡回答本席說是這樣子的方法那最重要的是第一個有沒有公告\n106932\t121837\t第二個有沒有跨部會去協商協調如何最快的速度來建立你講的這個機制而且呢是能夠落實的是能夠宣導的對 銀行開戶昨天金管會就已經在討論了昨天跟金管會討論 討論出結果了嗎就是\n128171\t155464\t那自然人憑證又是誰發給的我相信你也應該知道啊報告委員今天早上金管會有召開各部會來開會我們蘇華部也有參與現在正在開會那我希望等一下會後可以告訴我開會的結果我想這個牽涉到非常大的問題而且關乎我們民眾的權益我今天要跟你講的就是詐騙為什麼呢我給你看一個數字\n156806\t184055\t我們在4月份的時候有宣傳說我們打造有一定的一個績效在大概半年的這個詐騙的財損降了48.8%那說我們精準打擊見效好我看到數字確實有降下來要給我們打造國家隊鼓鼓掌也要謝謝數位發展部但是我再進一步的來看從你們宣布了3月4月5月來數字又增加了\n185135\t190819\t數字又增加了被詐騙的財損的金額呢又從了70.9億今年的3月70.9億到4月的76億5000多萬到5月的時候我們看到又變87億2000多萬那表示又在增加那部長你怎麼看\n205099\t232780\t確實有看到這樣的數據這個數據我們也在深切檢討那現在就是說確實要再更努力去打仗因為詐騙群也一直在演變我們有很多的方法他們也在變尤其是現在詐騙集團也慢慢用一些技術像AI的技術在做詐騙所以這個就是一個剛剛講是好人跟壞人的鬥爭那他們壞人一直在進步中所以我們也是要努力所以我們好人也要進步啊\n233541\t243068\t對不對 那我們進步的速度還要比壞人進步的速度快才行啊所以我們有在努力在鋼場就技術面那如果我們有在努力我們再給你看一下 來\n246124\t271751\t那個上個月我想也有其他委員關心過這個網路的詐騙呢其中一個來自Meta集團的臉書那廣告資訊的揭露不完全你們依這個這個防詐的一個條例喔這個有開罰100萬開罰100萬我想多數的委員都不滿意因為呢我看到法令規定是50到1000萬結果你只挑了一個\n272793\t299396\t比最低值再高一點點的一百萬那問題是能不能有嚇阻作用或者是能不能讓這個平臺雙方有聽一個官員說依照我們的法規制度依照我們政府單位要求能夠盡速的把這些這個廣告揭露不實的這個問題能夠的有迅速處理的機制目前看起來沒有為什麼因為呢在你們\n300775\t329043\t5月22號見報說開罰100萬之後6月5號你們速發部又收到了23件這個Meta網路的廣告揭露不全的一個案子那部長你自己怎麼看那個程序上就是收到案子以後我們會檢調單位一起對這案子來做一個審查審查完之後會再給Meta一個禮拜的時間做他們申訴一個禮拜對那申訴完了現在已經有在進行下一個動作請署長說明\n331035\t351923\t那署長跟委員報告那這個23案目前看到還是在5月初的那Meta因為上次的開罰我要跟你講啦你現在看到是5月初的啦我相信到現在6月十幾號6月中旬一定還有其他案子啦是是是那Meta現在已經95%已經完成這個法尊的部分剩下5%他們現在加緊腳步剩下5%沒有法尊的部分是哪5%\n358306\t365033\t就是在 你用什麼樣的一個角度來告訴我們Meta已經95%已經有法尊了剩下5%沒有那5%沒有是什麼5%的部分是在它的廣告的一個版位有一個網路的一個版位它那邊因為比較複雜一點還在處理\n378789\t394464\t比較複雜比較還在處理那問題是這個在我們的法尊的要求裡面它本來就該處理你自己看喔這個我們社群平台沒有辦法百分之百的遵循我們台灣的法規制度的話它造成的是什麼我跟你講啦光是\n395225\t398587\t有法尊的話都還會有詐騙集團剛剛部長講的這個變形那越變的技術越來越好那我們都還不見得跟得上那如果還沒有百分之百遵循法尊那現在我們警政署告訴我們第一個就是未完成實名制或實名制不實沒有落實第二個詐騙廣告內容持續的變體\n418780\t446444\t第三個廣告雖然通知下架但明顯為詐騙廣告人持續的上刊跟播這個第三點這三點都是警政署指出來的喔而且是六月份這個月才指出來的喔那數位發展部你怎麼看署長是跟委員報告目前是這個看播者的資訊沒有揭露的所以目前開罰都是真的至於實名制他目前已經符合了\n447054\t467968\t實名制有符合啊 是那我就跟你講囉你不要認為你自己認為符合囉如果有不符合或者是說我們還沒有做到位的我們要檢討喔我從去年不斷的在要求我給你看一個第一個是最近媒體有說我們的Trade到底有沒有包含在這個廣告實名制的納管平台裡面我們在討論當中目前沒有目前沒有現在正在討論當中要討論多久\n474264\t483871\t我們有兩個指標一個是他這個規模規模已經符合另外一個是他的他有廣告而且被用來當詐騙的風險這個也已經有啦這個媒體也有舉例很多啊那討論上大家也都討論很多啊甚至媒體都有一個數字叫做發生近兩千案啊我就又去問了一下媒體說那這個發生近兩千案到底是從哪裡得到這個數據警政署\n498755\t518533\t所以你跟警政署一定有跨部會的聯繫平台嘛所以你看到目前為止警政署說Trade已經變成詐騙的新平台發生了將近2000件我跟你講這個數字是以4月開始登廣告到現在6月短短兩個月的時間喔兩個月不到的時間就2000件喔\n522316\t526639\t那如果這樣子的速度還不夠我們會盡快啟動程序我們接下來就會馬上所以你到底有沒有啟動程序了啦我們其實有在有在討論的沒有你說這樣不清楚到底有沒有啟動程序如果要把它納管\n536021\t562748\t要啟動什麼程序這第一個那程序的過程到底有哪些需要多久時間因為在你們的這個一定規模是網路廣告平台的計算基準總說明裡面有講到一個我們可以即時檢討更新管納管的業者名單所以即時檢討更新在我的中文解讀裡面是你現在就可以宣布可以做啦那你要討論多久\n564414\t567818\t因為剛剛講被用來做詐騙的風險我們會再跟165這邊求證之後我們就馬上所以媒體已經講那麼多天了你們還沒有求證喔\n575095\t603032\t還在求證當中是 不可以這樣啦 不對那個委員我回去會跟他們再好好的檢討這個流程 我們會盡快啦這個確實是 我看到的這個媒體來源包括是電子媒體 平面媒體都在四月份甚至六月十五就是前幾天啦 上個禮拜的事情啦好不好委員 這個回去我們再跟我們素產署再加速這個過程 這個流程那早點把這個東西看要 如果要納管就早點納管\n603632\t627648\t你給我一個時間點上面的說明是即時檢討更新喔一個月內一個月你還要一個月內都已經告訴你有發生兩千案了都已經告訴你這個Trade平台是在Meta集團裡面的這個大家眾所皆知在一定的規模你也告訴我有喔\n630560\t655787\t你給警政署求證發生多少件的這個需要一個月喔跟委員報告就是我們會在兩個禮拜完成但是因為他還是有一些一些程序要比如我們要找專家學者來認定等等的那找司法單位共同來參與所以這個可能是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間兩個禮拜我希望更快啦因為你剛剛這樣跟我講表示你們跟警政署還沒有研商啦連求證這個\n657435\t674098\t按個案數字你都還沒有求證啊所以呢你這個效率啊齁沒藥沒快我們是沒你的事情一樣這個我不能接受啊部長這個不是今天發生的新聞喔這個已經上個禮拜的新聞甚至四月份就有人點出來了喔\n675160\t696076\t那個稅的納管我想我們禁訴啦那我再跟他們要求就是那就剛剛講是說目前他們是說這個有一些程序上可以大概需要兩個禮拜我想兩個禮拜之內把它完成好那最後你剛剛講的除了這個稅的納管我們呢尊重程序但是我認為要快喔詐騙裡面還有一個你們還沒做到的\n697337\t722144\t雖然我們現在叫廣告實名制我們現在治安院也有所謂的這個AI機器人百萬機器人大軍在看我們說網路上這個投放廣告是不是詐騙廣告這個第一個我可以肯定但是第二個做不可以做一半啦 只要做完整啦什麼叫做一半我們看到的是以我詢問出來的你們的機制\n724261\t742564\t這個AI百萬機器人去網路上來海巡 巡邏了好像有疑似這個詐騙廣告他可以來舉發 舉發了之後呢 當然了需要有認定需要認定了之後 認定了之後 他這個詐騙的內容是歸哪一個部位管你們會去通知\n743365\t768109\t但是通知了之後 如果確定是詐騙的訊息你們在你們現在的這一個叫做詐騙通報查詢網上呢只有告訴我們說 不會 譬如說這一則我找到了叫做金管會已經確認這是詐騙訊息 已通知FB移除但是我要問的是 到底有沒有移除\n768709\t793456\t到底有沒有下架什麼時間有沒有時效可以告訴我他真的已經移除真的已經下架了我找到一個例子又在旁邊這個美女這個美女呢她呢在她的粉專上她裡面就是在告訴你要投資理財被認定是詐騙廣告那也被通報了但是呢被通報了之後呢\n795745\t815582\t很抱歉我現在在網路上還是可以看到他就是說我雖然通報了知道這是詐騙廣告6月12號也通知下架了但是第一個我不知道有沒有下架有沒有移除目前影片還在連結還在粉專也都還在也沒有下架啊這個請那個市長回答\n818035\t828566\tOK 如同委員所講的事實上現在在臉書上詐騙集團的操作方法它其實分成三個階段第一個它會設立一些帳號然後這些帳號會去開粉專粉專裡面它會投放一些詐騙廣告那我們現在\n833191\t861640\t目前政府跟民眾能看到的都是那個詐騙的廣告還有這些粉專我們看不到他的來源就是那個臉書的那些帳號所以我們現在正密集的跟Meta正在做協商那我們也直接找了他美國的總部的人我們在討論那要求就是說我們在通報以後他又必須把這個來源最終的來源這些帳號直接把它移除那現在那個Meta已經答應他們會進行這樣的工作\n861800\t876626\tMeta有答應那他們有答應有多少多久的時間內要回覆給我們什麼時候做到是據他們的說法他們已經在執行了那這件事情當然是說因為Meta整個產品非常非常複雜\n877846\t904036\t然後他會一步一步來做那這件事情我們正密切地正在督促他們要把這個事情確實落實我相信你我也希望能夠做到那我也希望在這個詐騙通報的查詢網裡面那我們是不是可以增加一個功能就是可以嫁接Meta他什麼時候真的移除什麼時候真的下架甚至連源頭通通給他下架移除我們在我們的這個詐騙通報查詢網上可不可以看得到\n905237\t929899\t這是增加國人對我們的信心現在我們網站通報查詢網要求Meta把詐騙廣告移除的時候我們都還必須用人工的方式去檢查有沒有確實移除那我們現在也已經正式跟美國的Meta總部提出這個要求要求他們開放程式的API讓我們能用程式的方法自動去檢查它是不是已經下架這個我們已經向他正式提出要求了\n930539\t947963\t拜託我希望能夠達成我希望可以看到有看到讓國人真正知道政府有在做事數位發展部在專業上在技術上甚至在民心想要根除詐騙的這樣子的一個決心裡面我可以看得到起碼從這個詐騙通報查詢網裡面我可以看到動作好不好好謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們請黃部長請部長好 賀偉好部長 剛剛在講到自然人憑證我們雖然是數位大國 但是呢阻絕詐騙最重要網路的詐騙到現在還橫行那甚至我們國人對於這個詐騙這個行為是深惡痛絕\n所以我們才有所謂的打炸國家隊那這個國家隊裡面重中之重又是我們的數位發展部被期待最多所以第一個剛剛講的自然人憑證所謂的很多我們現在在行政單位跟我們國人習以為常的這些數位的一個工具那如何能夠讓它第一個資安防護做得更好\n這個部長你要思考而且要最快的速度趕快的來實質上的來告訴國人如何做到政府怎麼做部長你剛剛沒有講完如果像剛剛那樣所謂的工具被濫用怎麼辦\n所以剛剛講說現在發生問題是因為有人就是詐騙居然去跟跟有人去借所以就是說現在就是說為了防止這東西你要確定在使用自然平衡所以是本人在使用那所以像比如說我們現在提款卡提款卡現在去銀行領錢\n像有些ATM機器會做影像辨識辨識你用卡片這個人是本人以後自然平常使用也要有同樣的方法那可以是影像辨識你現在這樣子在這裡回答本席說是這樣子的方法那最重要的是第一個有沒有公告\n第二個有沒有跨部會去協商協調如何最快的速度來建立你講的這個機制而且呢是能夠落實的是能夠宣導的對 銀行開戶昨天金管會就已經在討論了昨天跟金管會討論 討論出結果了嗎就是\n那自然人憑證又是誰發給的我相信你也應該知道啊報告委員今天早上金管會有召開各部會來開會我們蘇華部也有參與現在正在開會那我希望等一下會後可以告訴我開會的結果我想這個牽涉到非常大的問題而且關乎我們民眾的權益我今天要跟你講的就是詐騙為什麼呢我給你看一個數字\n我們在4月份的時候有宣傳說我們打造有一定的一個績效在大概半年的這個詐騙的財損降了48.8%那說我們精準打擊見效好我看到數字確實有降下來要給我們打造國家隊鼓鼓掌也要謝謝數位發展部但是我再進一步的來看從你們宣布了3月4月5月來數字又增加了\n數字又增加了被詐騙的財損的金額呢又從了70.9億今年的3月70.9億到4月的76億5000多萬到5月的時候我們看到又變87億2000多萬那表示又在增加那部長你怎麼看\n確實有看到這樣的數據這個數據我們也在深切檢討那現在就是說確實要再更努力去打仗因為詐騙群也一直在演變我們有很多的方法他們也在變尤其是現在詐騙集團也慢慢用一些技術像AI的技術在做詐騙所以這個就是一個剛剛講是好人跟壞人的鬥爭那他們壞人一直在進步中所以我們也是要努力所以我們好人也要進步啊\n對不對 那我們進步的速度還要比壞人進步的速度快才行啊所以我們有在努力在鋼場就技術面那如果我們有在努力我們再給你看一下 來\n那個上個月我想也有其他委員關心過這個網路的詐騙呢其中一個來自Meta集團的臉書那廣告資訊的揭露不完全你們依這個這個防詐的一個條例喔這個有開罰100萬開罰100萬我想多數的委員都不滿意因為呢我看到法令規定是50到1000萬結果你只挑了一個\n比最低值再高一點點的一百萬那問題是能不能有嚇阻作用或者是能不能讓這個平臺雙方有聽一個官員說依照我們的法規制度依照我們政府單位要求能夠盡速的把這些這個廣告揭露不實的這個問題能夠的有迅速處理的機制目前看起來沒有為什麼因為呢在你們\n5月22號見報說開罰100萬之後6月5號你們速發部又收到了23件這個Meta網路的廣告揭露不全的一個案子那部長你自己怎麼看那個程序上就是收到案子以後我們會檢調單位一起對這案子來做一個審查審查完之後會再給Meta一個禮拜的時間做他們申訴一個禮拜對那申訴完了現在已經有在進行下一個動作請署長說明\n那署長跟委員報告那這個23案目前看到還是在5月初的那Meta因為上次的開罰我要跟你講啦你現在看到是5月初的啦我相信到現在6月十幾號6月中旬一定還有其他案子啦是是是那Meta現在已經95%已經完成這個法尊的部分剩下5%他們現在加緊腳步剩下5%沒有法尊的部分是哪5%\n就是在 你用什麼樣的一個角度來告訴我們Meta已經95%已經有法尊了剩下5%沒有那5%沒有是什麼5%的部分是在它的廣告的一個版位有一個網路的一個版位它那邊因為比較複雜一點還在處理\n比較複雜比較還在處理那問題是這個在我們的法尊的要求裡面它本來就該處理你自己看喔這個我們社群平台沒有辦法百分之百的遵循我們台灣的法規制度的話它造成的是什麼我跟你講啦光是\n有法尊的話都還會有詐騙集團剛剛部長講的這個變形那越變的技術越來越好那我們都還不見得跟得上那如果還沒有百分之百遵循法尊那現在我們警政署告訴我們第一個就是未完成實名制或實名制不實沒有落實第二個詐騙廣告內容持續的變體\n第三個廣告雖然通知下架但明顯為詐騙廣告人持續的上刊跟播這個第三點這三點都是警政署指出來的喔而且是六月份這個月才指出來的喔那數位發展部你怎麼看署長是跟委員報告目前是這個看播者的資訊沒有揭露的所以目前開罰都是真的至於實名制他目前已經符合了\n實名制有符合啊 是那我就跟你講囉你不要認為你自己認為符合囉如果有不符合或者是說我們還沒有做到位的我們要檢討喔我從去年不斷的在要求我給你看一個第一個是最近媒體有說我們的Trade到底有沒有包含在這個廣告實名制的納管平台裡面我們在討論當中目前沒有目前沒有現在正在討論當中要討論多久\n我們有兩個指標一個是他這個規模規模已經符合另外一個是他的他有廣告而且被用來當詐騙的風險這個也已經有啦這個媒體也有舉例很多啊那討論上大家也都討論很多啊甚至媒體都有一個數字叫做發生近兩千案啊我就又去問了一下媒體說那這個發生近兩千案到底是從哪裡得到這個數據警政署\n所以你跟警政署一定有跨部會的聯繫平台嘛所以你看到目前為止警政署說Trade已經變成詐騙的新平台發生了將近2000件我跟你講這個數字是以4月開始登廣告到現在6月短短兩個月的時間喔兩個月不到的時間就2000件喔\n那如果這樣子的速度還不夠我們會盡快啟動程序我們接下來就會馬上所以你到底有沒有啟動程序了啦我們其實有在有在討論的沒有你說這樣不清楚到底有沒有啟動程序如果要把它納管\n要啟動什麼程序這第一個那程序的過程到底有哪些需要多久時間因為在你們的這個一定規模是網路廣告平台的計算基準總說明裡面有講到一個我們可以即時檢討更新管納管的業者名單所以即時檢討更新在我的中文解讀裡面是你現在就可以宣布可以做啦那你要討論多久\n因為剛剛講被用來做詐騙的風險我們會再跟165這邊求證之後我們就馬上所以媒體已經講那麼多天了你們還沒有求證喔\n還在求證當中是 不可以這樣啦 不對那個委員我回去會跟他們再好好的檢討這個流程 我們會盡快啦這個確實是 我看到的這個媒體來源包括是電子媒體 平面媒體都在四月份甚至六月十五就是前幾天啦 上個禮拜的事情啦好不好委員 這個回去我們再跟我們素產署再加速這個過程 這個流程那早點把這個東西看要 如果要納管就早點納管\n你給我一個時間點上面的說明是即時檢討更新喔一個月內一個月你還要一個月內都已經告訴你有發生兩千案了都已經告訴你這個Trade平台是在Meta集團裡面的這個大家眾所皆知在一定的規模你也告訴我有喔\n你給警政署求證發生多少件的這個需要一個月喔跟委員報告就是我們會在兩個禮拜完成但是因為他還是有一些一些程序要比如我們要找專家學者來認定等等的那找司法單位共同來參與所以這個可能是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間兩個禮拜我希望更快啦因為你剛剛這樣跟我講表示你們跟警政署還沒有研商啦連求證這個\n按個案數字你都還沒有求證啊所以呢你這個效率啊齁沒藥沒快我們是沒你的事情一樣這個我不能接受啊部長這個不是今天發生的新聞喔這個已經上個禮拜的新聞甚至四月份就有人點出來了喔\n那個稅的納管我想我們禁訴啦那我再跟他們要求就是那就剛剛講是說目前他們是說這個有一些程序上可以大概需要兩個禮拜我想兩個禮拜之內把它完成好那最後你剛剛講的除了這個稅的納管我們呢尊重程序但是我認為要快喔詐騙裡面還有一個你們還沒做到的\n雖然我們現在叫廣告實名制我們現在治安院也有所謂的這個AI機器人百萬機器人大軍在看我們說網路上這個投放廣告是不是詐騙廣告這個第一個我可以肯定但是第二個做不可以做一半啦 只要做完整啦什麼叫做一半我們看到的是以我詢問出來的你們的機制\n這個AI百萬機器人去網路上來海巡 巡邏了好像有疑似這個詐騙廣告他可以來舉發 舉發了之後呢 當然了需要有認定需要認定了之後 認定了之後 他這個詐騙的內容是歸哪一個部位管你們會去通知\n但是通知了之後 如果確定是詐騙的訊息你們在你們現在的這一個叫做詐騙通報查詢網上呢只有告訴我們說 不會 譬如說這一則我找到了叫做金管會已經確認這是詐騙訊息 已通知FB移除但是我要問的是 到底有沒有移除\n到底有沒有下架什麼時間有沒有時效可以告訴我他真的已經移除真的已經下架了我找到一個例子又在旁邊這個美女這個美女呢她呢在她的粉專上她裡面就是在告訴你要投資理財被認定是詐騙廣告那也被通報了但是呢被通報了之後呢\n很抱歉我現在在網路上還是可以看到他就是說我雖然通報了知道這是詐騙廣告6月12號也通知下架了但是第一個我不知道有沒有下架有沒有移除目前影片還在連結還在粉專也都還在也沒有下架啊這個請那個市長回答\nOK 如同委員所講的事實上現在在臉書上詐騙集團的操作方法它其實分成三個階段第一個它會設立一些帳號然後這些帳號會去開粉專粉專裡面它會投放一些詐騙廣告那我們現在\n目前政府跟民眾能看到的都是那個詐騙的廣告還有這些粉專我們看不到他的來源就是那個臉書的那些帳號所以我們現在正密集的跟Meta正在做協商那我們也直接找了他美國的總部的人我們在討論那要求就是說我們在通報以後他又必須把這個來源最終的來源這些帳號直接把它移除那現在那個Meta已經答應他們會進行這樣的工作\nMeta有答應那他們有答應有多少多久的時間內要回覆給我們什麼時候做到是據他們的說法他們已經在執行了那這件事情當然是說因為Meta整個產品非常非常複雜\n然後他會一步一步來做那這件事情我們正密切地正在督促他們要把這個事情確實落實我相信你我也希望能夠做到那我也希望在這個詐騙通報的查詢網裡面那我們是不是可以增加一個功能就是可以嫁接Meta他什麼時候真的移除什麼時候真的下架甚至連源頭通通給他下架移除我們在我們的這個詐騙通報查詢網上可不可以看得到\n這是增加國人對我們的信心現在我們網站通報查詢網要求Meta把詐騙廣告移除的時候我們都還必須用人工的方式去檢查有沒有確實移除那我們現在也已經正式跟美國的Meta總部提出這個要求要求他們開放程式的API讓我們能用程式的方法自動去檢查它是不是已經下架這個我們已經向他正式提出要求了\n拜託我希望能夠達成我希望可以看到有看到讓國人真正知道政府有在做事數位發展部在專業上在技術上甚至在民心想要根除詐騙的這樣子的一個決心裡面我可以看得到起碼從這個詐騙通報查詢網裡面我可以看到動作好不好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.578 --> 00:03.858\n好謝謝趙偉我們請黃部長請部長好賀偉好部長剛剛在講到自然人憑證我們雖然是數位大國但是呢阻絕詐騙最重要網路的詐騙到現在還橫行那甚至我們國人對於這個詐騙這個行為是深惡痛絕\n\n00:30.524 --> 00:55.776\n所以我們才有所謂的打炸國家隊那這個國家隊裡面重中之重又是我們的數位發展部被期待最多所以第一個剛剛講的自然人憑證所謂的很多我們現在在行政單位跟我們國人習以為常的這些數位的一個工具那如何能夠讓它第一個資安防護做得更好\n\n00:57.277 --> 01:12.443\n這個部長你要思考而且要最快的速度趕快的來實質上的來告訴國人如何做到政府怎麼做部長你剛剛沒有講完如果像剛剛那樣所謂的工具被濫用怎麼辦\n\n01:13.203 --> 01:27.693\n所以剛剛講說現在發生問題是因為有人就是詐騙居然去跟跟有人去借所以就是說現在就是說為了防止這東西你要確定在使用自然平衡所以是本人在使用那所以像比如說我們現在提款卡提款卡現在去銀行領錢\n\n01:29.048 --> 01:46.291\n像有些ATM機器會做影像辨識辨識你用卡片這個人是本人以後自然平常使用也要有同樣的方法那可以是影像辨識你現在這樣子在這裡回答本席說是這樣子的方法那最重要的是第一個有沒有公告\n\n01:46.932 --> 02:01.837\n第二個有沒有跨部會去協商協調如何最快的速度來建立你講的這個機制而且呢是能夠落實的是能夠宣導的對銀行開戶昨天金管會就已經在討論了昨天跟金管會討論討論出結果了嗎就是\n\n02:08.171 --> 02:35.464\n那自然人憑證又是誰發給的我相信你也應該知道啊報告委員今天早上金管會有召開各部會來開會我們蘇華部也有參與現在正在開會那我希望等一下會後可以告訴我開會的結果我想這個牽涉到非常大的問題而且關乎我們民眾的權益我今天要跟你講的就是詐騙為什麼呢我給你看一個數字\n\n02:36.806 --> 03:04.055\n我們在4月份的時候有宣傳說我們打造有一定的一個績效在大概半年的這個詐騙的財損降了48.8%那說我們精準打擊見效好我看到數字確實有降下來要給我們打造國家隊鼓鼓掌也要謝謝數位發展部但是我再進一步的來看從你們宣布了3月4月5月來數字又增加了\n\n03:05.135 --> 03:10.819\n數字又增加了被詐騙的財損的金額呢又從了70.9億今年的3月70.9億到4月的76億5000多萬到5月的時候我們看到又變87億2000多萬那表示又在增加那部長你怎麼看\n\n03:25.099 --> 03:52.780\n確實有看到這樣的數據這個數據我們也在深切檢討那現在就是說確實要再更努力去打仗因為詐騙群也一直在演變我們有很多的方法他們也在變尤其是現在詐騙集團也慢慢用一些技術像AI的技術在做詐騙所以這個就是一個剛剛講是好人跟壞人的鬥爭那他們壞人一直在進步中所以我們也是要努力所以我們好人也要進步啊\n\n03:53.541 --> 04:03.068\n對不對那我們進步的速度還要比壞人進步的速度快才行啊所以我們有在努力在鋼場就技術面那如果我們有在努力我們再給你看一下來\n\n04:06.124 --> 04:31.751\n那個上個月我想也有其他委員關心過這個網路的詐騙呢其中一個來自Meta集團的臉書那廣告資訊的揭露不完全你們依這個這個防詐的一個條例喔這個有開罰100萬開罰100萬我想多數的委員都不滿意因為呢我看到法令規定是50到1000萬結果你只挑了一個\n\n04:32.793 --> 04:59.396\n比最低值再高一點點的一百萬那問題是能不能有嚇阻作用或者是能不能讓這個平臺雙方有聽一個官員說依照我們的法規制度依照我們政府單位要求能夠盡速的把這些這個廣告揭露不實的這個問題能夠的有迅速處理的機制目前看起來沒有為什麼因為呢在你們\n\n05:00.775 --> 05:29.043\n5月22號見報說開罰100萬之後6月5號你們速發部又收到了23件這個Meta網路的廣告揭露不全的一個案子那部長你自己怎麼看那個程序上就是收到案子以後我們會檢調單位一起對這案子來做一個審查審查完之後會再給Meta一個禮拜的時間做他們申訴一個禮拜對那申訴完了現在已經有在進行下一個動作請署長說明\n\n05:31.035 --> 05:51.923\n那署長跟委員報告那這個23案目前看到還是在5月初的那Meta因為上次的開罰我要跟你講啦你現在看到是5月初的啦我相信到現在6月十幾號6月中旬一定還有其他案子啦是是是那Meta現在已經95%已經完成這個法尊的部分剩下5%他們現在加緊腳步剩下5%沒有法尊的部分是哪5%\n\n05:58.306 --> 06:05.033\n就是在你用什麼樣的一個角度來告訴我們Meta已經95%已經有法尊了剩下5%沒有那5%沒有是什麼5%的部分是在它的廣告的一個版位有一個網路的一個版位它那邊因為比較複雜一點還在處理\n\n06:18.789 --> 06:34.464\n比較複雜比較還在處理那問題是這個在我們的法尊的要求裡面它本來就該處理你自己看喔這個我們社群平台沒有辦法百分之百的遵循我們台灣的法規制度的話它造成的是什麼我跟你講啦光是\n\n06:35.225 --> 06:38.587\n有法尊的話都還會有詐騙集團剛剛部長講的這個變形那越變的技術越來越好那我們都還不見得跟得上那如果還沒有百分之百遵循法尊那現在我們警政署告訴我們第一個就是未完成實名制或實名制不實沒有落實第二個詐騙廣告內容持續的變體\n\n06:58.780 --> 07:26.444\n第三個廣告雖然通知下架但明顯為詐騙廣告人持續的上刊跟播這個第三點這三點都是警政署指出來的喔而且是六月份這個月才指出來的喔那數位發展部你怎麼看署長是跟委員報告目前是這個看播者的資訊沒有揭露的所以目前開罰都是真的至於實名制他目前已經符合了\n\n07:27.054 --> 07:47.968\n實名制有符合啊是那我就跟你講囉你不要認為你自己認為符合囉如果有不符合或者是說我們還沒有做到位的我們要檢討喔我從去年不斷的在要求我給你看一個第一個是最近媒體有說我們的Trade到底有沒有包含在這個廣告實名制的納管平台裡面我們在討論當中目前沒有目前沒有現在正在討論當中要討論多久\n\n07:54.264 --> 08:03.871\n我們有兩個指標一個是他這個規模規模已經符合另外一個是他的他有廣告而且被用來當詐騙的風險這個也已經有啦這個媒體也有舉例很多啊那討論上大家也都討論很多啊甚至媒體都有一個數字叫做發生近兩千案啊我就又去問了一下媒體說那這個發生近兩千案到底是從哪裡得到這個數據警政署\n\n08:18.755 --> 08:38.533\n所以你跟警政署一定有跨部會的聯繫平台嘛所以你看到目前為止警政署說Trade已經變成詐騙的新平台發生了將近2000件我跟你講這個數字是以4月開始登廣告到現在6月短短兩個月的時間喔兩個月不到的時間就2000件喔\n\n08:42.316 --> 08:46.639\n那如果這樣子的速度還不夠我們會盡快啟動程序我們接下來就會馬上所以你到底有沒有啟動程序了啦我們其實有在有在討論的沒有你說這樣不清楚到底有沒有啟動程序如果要把它納管\n\n08:56.021 --> 09:22.748\n要啟動什麼程序這第一個那程序的過程到底有哪些需要多久時間因為在你們的這個一定規模是網路廣告平台的計算基準總說明裡面有講到一個我們可以即時檢討更新管納管的業者名單所以即時檢討更新在我的中文解讀裡面是你現在就可以宣布可以做啦那你要討論多久\n\n09:24.414 --> 09:27.818\n因為剛剛講被用來做詐騙的風險我們會再跟165這邊求證之後我們就馬上所以媒體已經講那麼多天了你們還沒有求證喔\n\n09:35.095 --> 10:03.032\n還在求證當中是不可以這樣啦不對那個委員我回去會跟他們再好好的檢討這個流程我們會盡快啦這個確實是我看到的這個媒體來源包括是電子媒體平面媒體都在四月份甚至六月十五就是前幾天啦上個禮拜的事情啦好不好委員這個回去我們再跟我們素產署再加速這個過程這個流程那早點把這個東西看要如果要納管就早點納管\n\n10:03.632 --> 10:27.648\n你給我一個時間點上面的說明是即時檢討更新喔一個月內一個月你還要一個月內都已經告訴你有發生兩千案了都已經告訴你這個Trade平台是在Meta集團裡面的這個大家眾所皆知在一定的規模你也告訴我有喔\n\n10:30.560 --> 10:55.787\n你給警政署求證發生多少件的這個需要一個月喔跟委員報告就是我們會在兩個禮拜完成但是因為他還是有一些一些程序要比如我們要找專家學者來認定等等的那找司法單位共同來參與所以這個可能是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間兩個禮拜我希望更快啦因為你剛剛這樣跟我講表示你們跟警政署還沒有研商啦連求證這個\n\n10:57.435 --> 11:14.098\n按個案數字你都還沒有求證啊所以呢你這個效率啊齁沒藥沒快我們是沒你的事情一樣這個我不能接受啊部長這個不是今天發生的新聞喔這個已經上個禮拜的新聞甚至四月份就有人點出來了喔\n\n11:15.160 --> 11:36.076\n那個稅的納管我想我們禁訴啦那我再跟他們要求就是那就剛剛講是說目前他們是說這個有一些程序上可以大概需要兩個禮拜我想兩個禮拜之內把它完成好那最後你剛剛講的除了這個稅的納管我們呢尊重程序但是我認為要快喔詐騙裡面還有一個你們還沒做到的\n\n11:37.337 --> 12:02.144\n雖然我們現在叫廣告實名制我們現在治安院也有所謂的這個AI機器人百萬機器人大軍在看我們說網路上這個投放廣告是不是詐騙廣告這個第一個我可以肯定但是第二個做不可以做一半啦只要做完整啦什麼叫做一半我們看到的是以我詢問出來的你們的機制\n\n12:04.261 --> 12:22.564\n這個AI百萬機器人去網路上來海巡巡邏了好像有疑似這個詐騙廣告他可以來舉發舉發了之後呢當然了需要有認定需要認定了之後認定了之後他這個詐騙的內容是歸哪一個部位管你們會去通知\n\n12:23.365 --> 12:48.109\n但是通知了之後如果確定是詐騙的訊息你們在你們現在的這一個叫做詐騙通報查詢網上呢只有告訴我們說不會譬如說這一則我找到了叫做金管會已經確認這是詐騙訊息已通知FB移除但是我要問的是到底有沒有移除\n\n12:48.709 --> 13:13.456\n到底有沒有下架什麼時間有沒有時效可以告訴我他真的已經移除真的已經下架了我找到一個例子又在旁邊這個美女這個美女呢她呢在她的粉專上她裡面就是在告訴你要投資理財被認定是詐騙廣告那也被通報了但是呢被通報了之後呢\n\n13:15.745 --> 13:35.582\n很抱歉我現在在網路上還是可以看到他就是說我雖然通報了知道這是詐騙廣告6月12號也通知下架了但是第一個我不知道有沒有下架有沒有移除目前影片還在連結還在粉專也都還在也沒有下架啊這個請那個市長回答\n\n13:38.035 --> 13:48.566\nOK如同委員所講的事實上現在在臉書上詐騙集團的操作方法它其實分成三個階段第一個它會設立一些帳號然後這些帳號會去開粉專粉專裡面它會投放一些詐騙廣告那我們現在\n\n13:53.191 --> 14:21.640\n目前政府跟民眾能看到的都是那個詐騙的廣告還有這些粉專我們看不到他的來源就是那個臉書的那些帳號所以我們現在正密集的跟Meta正在做協商那我們也直接找了他美國的總部的人我們在討論那要求就是說我們在通報以後他又必須把這個來源最終的來源這些帳號直接把它移除那現在那個Meta已經答應他們會進行這樣的工作\n\n14:21.800 --> 14:36.626\nMeta有答應那他們有答應有多少多久的時間內要回覆給我們什麼時候做到是據他們的說法他們已經在執行了那這件事情當然是說因為Meta整個產品非常非常複雜\n\n14:37.846 --> 15:04.036\n然後他會一步一步來做那這件事情我們正密切地正在督促他們要把這個事情確實落實我相信你我也希望能夠做到那我也希望在這個詐騙通報的查詢網裡面那我們是不是可以增加一個功能就是可以嫁接Meta他什麼時候真的移除什麼時候真的下架甚至連源頭通通給他下架移除我們在我們的這個詐騙通報查詢網上可不可以看得到\n\n15:05.237 --> 15:29.899\n這是增加國人對我們的信心現在我們網站通報查詢網要求Meta把詐騙廣告移除的時候我們都還必須用人工的方式去檢查有沒有確實移除那我們現在也已經正式跟美國的Meta總部提出這個要求要求他們開放程式的API讓我們能用程式的方法自動去檢查它是不是已經下架這個我們已經向他正式提出要求了\n\n15:30.539 --> 15:47.963\n拜託我希望能夠達成我希望可以看到有看到讓國人真正知道政府有在做事數位發展部在專業上在技術上甚至在民心想要根除詐騙的這樣子的一個決心裡面我可以看得到起碼從這個詐騙通報查詢網裡面我可以看到動作好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.578,"end":3.858,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們請黃部長請部長好 賀偉好部長 剛剛在講到自然人憑證我們雖然是數位大國 但是呢阻絕詐騙最重要網路的詐騙到現在還橫行那甚至我們國人對於這個詐騙這個行為是深惡痛絕"},{"start":30.524,"end":55.776,"text":"所以我們才有所謂的打炸國家隊那這個國家隊裡面重中之重又是我們的數位發展部被期待最多所以第一個剛剛講的自然人憑證所謂的很多我們現在在行政單位跟我們國人習以為常的這些數位的一個工具那如何能夠讓它第一個資安防護做得更好"},{"start":57.277,"end":72.443,"text":"這個部長你要思考而且要最快的速度趕快的來實質上的來告訴國人如何做到政府怎麼做部長你剛剛沒有講完如果像剛剛那樣所謂的工具被濫用怎麼辦"},{"start":73.203,"end":87.693,"text":"所以剛剛講說現在發生問題是因為有人就是詐騙居然去跟跟有人去借所以就是說現在就是說為了防止這東西你要確定在使用自然平衡所以是本人在使用那所以像比如說我們現在提款卡提款卡現在去銀行領錢"},{"start":89.048,"end":106.291,"text":"像有些ATM機器會做影像辨識辨識你用卡片這個人是本人以後自然平常使用也要有同樣的方法那可以是影像辨識你現在這樣子在這裡回答本席說是這樣子的方法那最重要的是第一個有沒有公告"},{"start":106.932,"end":121.837,"text":"第二個有沒有跨部會去協商協調如何最快的速度來建立你講的這個機制而且呢是能夠落實的是能夠宣導的對 銀行開戶昨天金管會就已經在討論了昨天跟金管會討論 討論出結果了嗎就是"},{"start":128.171,"end":155.464,"text":"那自然人憑證又是誰發給的我相信你也應該知道啊報告委員今天早上金管會有召開各部會來開會我們蘇華部也有參與現在正在開會那我希望等一下會後可以告訴我開會的結果我想這個牽涉到非常大的問題而且關乎我們民眾的權益我今天要跟你講的就是詐騙為什麼呢我給你看一個數字"},{"start":156.806,"end":184.055,"text":"我們在4月份的時候有宣傳說我們打造有一定的一個績效在大概半年的這個詐騙的財損降了48.8%那說我們精準打擊見效好我看到數字確實有降下來要給我們打造國家隊鼓鼓掌也要謝謝數位發展部但是我再進一步的來看從你們宣布了3月4月5月來數字又增加了"},{"start":185.135,"end":190.819,"text":"數字又增加了被詐騙的財損的金額呢又從了70.9億今年的3月70.9億到4月的76億5000多萬到5月的時候我們看到又變87億2000多萬那表示又在增加那部長你怎麼看"},{"start":205.099,"end":232.78,"text":"確實有看到這樣的數據這個數據我們也在深切檢討那現在就是說確實要再更努力去打仗因為詐騙群也一直在演變我們有很多的方法他們也在變尤其是現在詐騙集團也慢慢用一些技術像AI的技術在做詐騙所以這個就是一個剛剛講是好人跟壞人的鬥爭那他們壞人一直在進步中所以我們也是要努力所以我們好人也要進步啊"},{"start":233.541,"end":243.068,"text":"對不對 那我們進步的速度還要比壞人進步的速度快才行啊所以我們有在努力在鋼場就技術面那如果我們有在努力我們再給你看一下 來"},{"start":246.124,"end":271.751,"text":"那個上個月我想也有其他委員關心過這個網路的詐騙呢其中一個來自Meta集團的臉書那廣告資訊的揭露不完全你們依這個這個防詐的一個條例喔這個有開罰100萬開罰100萬我想多數的委員都不滿意因為呢我看到法令規定是50到1000萬結果你只挑了一個"},{"start":272.793,"end":299.396,"text":"比最低值再高一點點的一百萬那問題是能不能有嚇阻作用或者是能不能讓這個平臺雙方有聽一個官員說依照我們的法規制度依照我們政府單位要求能夠盡速的把這些這個廣告揭露不實的這個問題能夠的有迅速處理的機制目前看起來沒有為什麼因為呢在你們"},{"start":300.775,"end":329.043,"text":"5月22號見報說開罰100萬之後6月5號你們速發部又收到了23件這個Meta網路的廣告揭露不全的一個案子那部長你自己怎麼看那個程序上就是收到案子以後我們會檢調單位一起對這案子來做一個審查審查完之後會再給Meta一個禮拜的時間做他們申訴一個禮拜對那申訴完了現在已經有在進行下一個動作請署長說明"},{"start":331.035,"end":351.923,"text":"那署長跟委員報告那這個23案目前看到還是在5月初的那Meta因為上次的開罰我要跟你講啦你現在看到是5月初的啦我相信到現在6月十幾號6月中旬一定還有其他案子啦是是是那Meta現在已經95%已經完成這個法尊的部分剩下5%他們現在加緊腳步剩下5%沒有法尊的部分是哪5%"},{"start":358.306,"end":365.033,"text":"就是在 你用什麼樣的一個角度來告訴我們Meta已經95%已經有法尊了剩下5%沒有那5%沒有是什麼5%的部分是在它的廣告的一個版位有一個網路的一個版位它那邊因為比較複雜一點還在處理"},{"start":378.789,"end":394.464,"text":"比較複雜比較還在處理那問題是這個在我們的法尊的要求裡面它本來就該處理你自己看喔這個我們社群平台沒有辦法百分之百的遵循我們台灣的法規制度的話它造成的是什麼我跟你講啦光是"},{"start":395.225,"end":398.587,"text":"有法尊的話都還會有詐騙集團剛剛部長講的這個變形那越變的技術越來越好那我們都還不見得跟得上那如果還沒有百分之百遵循法尊那現在我們警政署告訴我們第一個就是未完成實名制或實名制不實沒有落實第二個詐騙廣告內容持續的變體"},{"start":418.78,"end":446.444,"text":"第三個廣告雖然通知下架但明顯為詐騙廣告人持續的上刊跟播這個第三點這三點都是警政署指出來的喔而且是六月份這個月才指出來的喔那數位發展部你怎麼看署長是跟委員報告目前是這個看播者的資訊沒有揭露的所以目前開罰都是真的至於實名制他目前已經符合了"},{"start":447.054,"end":467.968,"text":"實名制有符合啊 是那我就跟你講囉你不要認為你自己認為符合囉如果有不符合或者是說我們還沒有做到位的我們要檢討喔我從去年不斷的在要求我給你看一個第一個是最近媒體有說我們的Trade到底有沒有包含在這個廣告實名制的納管平台裡面我們在討論當中目前沒有目前沒有現在正在討論當中要討論多久"},{"start":474.264,"end":483.871,"text":"我們有兩個指標一個是他這個規模規模已經符合另外一個是他的他有廣告而且被用來當詐騙的風險這個也已經有啦這個媒體也有舉例很多啊那討論上大家也都討論很多啊甚至媒體都有一個數字叫做發生近兩千案啊我就又去問了一下媒體說那這個發生近兩千案到底是從哪裡得到這個數據警政署"},{"start":498.755,"end":518.533,"text":"所以你跟警政署一定有跨部會的聯繫平台嘛所以你看到目前為止警政署說Trade已經變成詐騙的新平台發生了將近2000件我跟你講這個數字是以4月開始登廣告到現在6月短短兩個月的時間喔兩個月不到的時間就2000件喔"},{"start":522.316,"end":526.639,"text":"那如果這樣子的速度還不夠我們會盡快啟動程序我們接下來就會馬上所以你到底有沒有啟動程序了啦我們其實有在有在討論的沒有你說這樣不清楚到底有沒有啟動程序如果要把它納管"},{"start":536.021,"end":562.748,"text":"要啟動什麼程序這第一個那程序的過程到底有哪些需要多久時間因為在你們的這個一定規模是網路廣告平台的計算基準總說明裡面有講到一個我們可以即時檢討更新管納管的業者名單所以即時檢討更新在我的中文解讀裡面是你現在就可以宣布可以做啦那你要討論多久"},{"start":564.414,"end":567.818,"text":"因為剛剛講被用來做詐騙的風險我們會再跟165這邊求證之後我們就馬上所以媒體已經講那麼多天了你們還沒有求證喔"},{"start":575.095,"end":603.032,"text":"還在求證當中是 不可以這樣啦 不對那個委員我回去會跟他們再好好的檢討這個流程 我們會盡快啦這個確實是 我看到的這個媒體來源包括是電子媒體 平面媒體都在四月份甚至六月十五就是前幾天啦 上個禮拜的事情啦好不好委員 這個回去我們再跟我們素產署再加速這個過程 這個流程那早點把這個東西看要 如果要納管就早點納管"},{"start":603.632,"end":627.648,"text":"你給我一個時間點上面的說明是即時檢討更新喔一個月內一個月你還要一個月內都已經告訴你有發生兩千案了都已經告訴你這個Trade平台是在Meta集團裡面的這個大家眾所皆知在一定的規模你也告訴我有喔"},{"start":630.56,"end":655.787,"text":"你給警政署求證發生多少件的這個需要一個月喔跟委員報告就是我們會在兩個禮拜完成但是因為他還是有一些一些程序要比如我們要找專家學者來認定等等的那找司法單位共同來參與所以這個可能是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間兩個禮拜我希望更快啦因為你剛剛這樣跟我講表示你們跟警政署還沒有研商啦連求證這個"},{"start":657.435,"end":674.098,"text":"按個案數字你都還沒有求證啊所以呢你這個效率啊齁沒藥沒快我們是沒你的事情一樣這個我不能接受啊部長這個不是今天發生的新聞喔這個已經上個禮拜的新聞甚至四月份就有人點出來了喔"},{"start":675.16,"end":696.076,"text":"那個稅的納管我想我們禁訴啦那我再跟他們要求就是那就剛剛講是說目前他們是說這個有一些程序上可以大概需要兩個禮拜我想兩個禮拜之內把它完成好那最後你剛剛講的除了這個稅的納管我們呢尊重程序但是我認為要快喔詐騙裡面還有一個你們還沒做到的"},{"start":697.337,"end":722.144,"text":"雖然我們現在叫廣告實名制我們現在治安院也有所謂的這個AI機器人百萬機器人大軍在看我們說網路上這個投放廣告是不是詐騙廣告這個第一個我可以肯定但是第二個做不可以做一半啦 只要做完整啦什麼叫做一半我們看到的是以我詢問出來的你們的機制"},{"start":724.261,"end":742.564,"text":"這個AI百萬機器人去網路上來海巡 巡邏了好像有疑似這個詐騙廣告他可以來舉發 舉發了之後呢 當然了需要有認定需要認定了之後 認定了之後 他這個詐騙的內容是歸哪一個部位管你們會去通知"},{"start":743.365,"end":768.109,"text":"但是通知了之後 如果確定是詐騙的訊息你們在你們現在的這一個叫做詐騙通報查詢網上呢只有告訴我們說 不會 譬如說這一則我找到了叫做金管會已經確認這是詐騙訊息 已通知FB移除但是我要問的是 到底有沒有移除"},{"start":768.709,"end":793.456,"text":"到底有沒有下架什麼時間有沒有時效可以告訴我他真的已經移除真的已經下架了我找到一個例子又在旁邊這個美女這個美女呢她呢在她的粉專上她裡面就是在告訴你要投資理財被認定是詐騙廣告那也被通報了但是呢被通報了之後呢"},{"start":795.745,"end":815.582,"text":"很抱歉我現在在網路上還是可以看到他就是說我雖然通報了知道這是詐騙廣告6月12號也通知下架了但是第一個我不知道有沒有下架有沒有移除目前影片還在連結還在粉專也都還在也沒有下架啊這個請那個市長回答"},{"start":818.035,"end":828.566,"text":"OK 如同委員所講的事實上現在在臉書上詐騙集團的操作方法它其實分成三個階段第一個它會設立一些帳號然後這些帳號會去開粉專粉專裡面它會投放一些詐騙廣告那我們現在"},{"start":833.191,"end":861.64,"text":"目前政府跟民眾能看到的都是那個詐騙的廣告還有這些粉專我們看不到他的來源就是那個臉書的那些帳號所以我們現在正密集的跟Meta正在做協商那我們也直接找了他美國的總部的人我們在討論那要求就是說我們在通報以後他又必須把這個來源最終的來源這些帳號直接把它移除那現在那個Meta已經答應他們會進行這樣的工作"},{"start":861.8,"end":876.626,"text":"Meta有答應那他們有答應有多少多久的時間內要回覆給我們什麼時候做到是據他們的說法他們已經在執行了那這件事情當然是說因為Meta整個產品非常非常複雜"},{"start":877.846,"end":904.036,"text":"然後他會一步一步來做那這件事情我們正密切地正在督促他們要把這個事情確實落實我相信你我也希望能夠做到那我也希望在這個詐騙通報的查詢網裡面那我們是不是可以增加一個功能就是可以嫁接Meta他什麼時候真的移除什麼時候真的下架甚至連源頭通通給他下架移除我們在我們的這個詐騙通報查詢網上可不可以看得到"},{"start":905.237,"end":929.899,"text":"這是增加國人對我們的信心現在我們網站通報查詢網要求Meta把詐騙廣告移除的時候我們都還必須用人工的方式去檢查有沒有確實移除那我們現在也已經正式跟美國的Meta總部提出這個要求要求他們開放程式的API讓我們能用程式的方法自動去檢查它是不是已經下架這個我們已經向他正式提出要求了"},{"start":930.539,"end":947.963,"text":"拜託我希望能夠達成我希望可以看到有看到讓國人真正知道政府有在做事數位發展部在專業上在技術上甚至在民心想要根除詐騙的這樣子的一個決心裡面我可以看得到起碼從這個詐騙通報查詢網裡面我可以看到動作好不好好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1037,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時34分）謝謝召委，我請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長，關於剛剛講到的自然人憑證，我們雖然是數位大國，但是阻絕詐騙最重要。網路詐騙到現在還橫行，甚至讓國人對於詐騙行為深惡痛絕，所以才有所謂的打詐國家隊，這個國家隊裡的重中之重又以數位發展部被期待最多，第一是針對剛剛講的自然人憑證等很多現在行政單位與國人習以為常的數位工具，如何將資安防護做得更好，部長，你要思考，而且要以最快的速度、趕快實質地告訴國人如何做到、政府會怎麼做。部長，你剛剛沒有講完，如果像剛剛講的，數位工具被濫用怎麼辦？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛講過，現在發生問題是因為有詐騙集團跟民眾借……"],["何委員欣純：這我知道啊！"],["黃部長彥男：所以現在為了防止這種情況，就要在使用自然人憑證的時候確定是本人使用。提款卡也一樣，民眾用提款卡向銀行領錢時，有些ATM機器會做影像辨識，辨識用卡片這個人是不是本人，以後自然人憑證使用也要用同樣的方法，可以是影像辨識……"],["何委員欣純：部長，現在你在這裡回答本席是用這樣的方法，但最重要的是：第一，有沒有公告？第二，有沒有跨部會協商、協調；如何以最快的速度建立你講的這個機制，而且是能夠落實的、是能夠宣導的，有嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：針對銀行開戶，昨天金管會就在討論了。"],["何委員欣純：昨天跟金管會討論？那討論出結果了嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：就是……"],["何委員欣純：那自然人憑證又是誰發給的？我相信你也應該知道啊！"],["林組長青嶔：報告委員，今天早上金管會有召集各部會開會。"],["何委員欣純：今天早上？"],["林組長青嶔：對，我們數發部也參與會議。"],["何委員欣純：現在正在開會？"],["林組長青嶔：對。"],["何委員欣純：那我希望等一下會後可以告訴我開會結果，因為這牽涉到非常大的問題，而且關乎民眾的權益。","我今天要跟你講的就是詐騙問題，為什麼呢？我給你看一個數字。政府在4月份宣傳打詐有一定的績效，在大概半年期間，詐騙財損降了48.8%，顯示精準打擊見效。我看到數字確實降下來，所以要為打詐國家隊鼓鼓掌，也要謝謝數位發展部。但是再進一步來看，在你們3月宣布之後，4月、5月數字又增加了，被詐騙的財損金額又從今年3月的70.9億元來到4月的七十六億五千多萬元，到5月的時候，又變成八十七億兩千多萬元，表示又在增加。部長，你怎麼看？"],["黃部長彥男：確實有看到這樣的數據，對於這個數據，我們也在深切檢討，現在確實就是要更努力地打詐，因為詐騙集團也一直在演變。我們有很多方法，但他們也在變，而且現在詐騙集團也慢慢用AI等技術詐騙。這就是剛才所講好人跟壞人的鬥爭，壞人一直在進步中，所以我們也要努力。"],["何委員欣純：我們好人也要進步啊！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，當然要進步，所以我們也……"],["何委員欣純：但我們進步的速度還要比壞人進步的速度快才行啊！"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以我們有在努力，如同剛剛講的，從技術面……"],["何委員欣純：既然有在努力，我再給你看一下，這是上個月的報導，我想也有其他委員關心過。網路詐騙其中一個管道是來自Meta集團的臉書，由於臉書涉及廣告資訊揭露不完全，你們依防詐條例開罰100萬元。對於開罰100萬元，我想多數委員都不滿意，因為我看到法令規定的是50萬元到1,000萬元，結果你只挑了只比最低值再高一點點的100萬元。問題是能不能有嚇阻作用，或者能不能至少讓這個平臺痛一下，願意依照我們的法規制度、依照政府單位要求，儘速針對這些廣告揭露不實的問題提出處理機制？目前看起來沒有，為什麼？因為在5月22日數發部開罰100萬元的消息見報之後，6月5日你們又收到23件Meta網路廣告揭露不全的案子。部長，你自己怎麼看？"],["黃部長彥男：程序上，收到案子之後，我們會跟檢調單位一起審查該案，審查完之後再給Meta一個禮拜的時間申訴。申訴完了，現在已經在進行下一個動作。我請署長說明。"],["何委員欣純：請署長。"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，目前看到這23案還是五月初的。Meta因為上次被開罰，其總部也……"],["何委員欣純：署長，我要跟你講，雖然你現在看到的是五月初的案子，但現在已經六月十幾日、六月中旬了，一定還有其他案子啦！"],["林署長俊秀：是。Meta現在已經95%完成法遵，剩下5%正在加緊腳步，所以這部分……"],["何委員欣純：那5%沒有做到法遵的是哪5%？"],["林署長俊秀：就是在……"],["何委員欣純：你用什麼樣的角度告訴我們Meta已經95%做到法遵了，剩下5%沒有？那5%沒有做到的是什麼？"],["林署長俊秀：那5%是在於廣告版位，因為網路版位比較複雜一點，還在處理。"],["何委員欣純：比較複雜、還在處理？問題是在我們的法遵要求下，他們本來就應該處理。"],["林署長俊秀：是，所以我們……"],["何委員欣純：你自己看喔！如果社群平臺沒有辦法百分之百遵循我們臺灣法規制度的話，造成的結果是什麼？我跟你講，光是完成法遵，詐騙集團都還會如同剛剛部長講的會變形，愈變技術愈好，我們還不見得跟得上，如果還沒有百分之百完成法遵，現在警政署也告訴我們缺失了，就是未完成實名制或實名制不實、沒有落實嘛！第二是詐騙廣告內文持續變體；第三是廣告雖然被通知下架，但明顯為詐騙之廣告仍持續上架刊、播。這三點都是警政署指出來的，而且是6月、這個月才指出來的喔！那數位發展部怎麼看，署長？"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，目前我們開罰的都是刊播者資訊沒有揭露者。至於實名制，目前已經符合了。"],["何委員欣純：實名制有符合喔？"],["林署長俊秀：是。"],["何委員欣純：那我再跟你講喔！你不要自己認為符合了喔！如果有不符合或還沒有做到位的，你們要檢討喔！","我從去年就不斷要求，但我給你看一個資訊。第一，媒體報導的Threads到底有沒有包含在廣告實名制的納管平臺裡面？"],["林署長俊秀：我們在討論當中，目前沒有。"],["何委員欣純：目前沒有，現在正在討論當中？要討論多久？"],["林署長俊秀：有兩個指標，一個是規模，已經符合了。另外是它有廣告，而且有被用來當詐騙工具的風險。"],["何委員欣純：這個也已經有啦！媒體舉例很多，網路上大家也都討論很多啊！"],["林署長俊秀：是。"],["何委員欣純：甚至媒體都有一個數字，就是「發生近兩千案」啊！我就問了一下媒體，到底是從哪裡得到「發生近兩千案」這個數據？就是警政署，所以你們跟警政署一定要有跨部會的聯繫平臺嘛！"],["林署長俊秀：有，我們會從……"],["何委員欣純：你看，警政署說Threads目前已經變成詐騙的新平臺，發生了將近兩千件。而且我跟你講，這個數字是從4月開始登廣告統計到現在6月，短短兩個月不到的時間，就有兩千件。這樣的速度還不夠你們納管嗎？"],["林署長俊秀：我們會儘快啟動程序，接下來就會馬上……"],["何委員欣純：所以你們到底有沒有啟動程序了？"],["林署長俊秀：其實我們在討論了……"],["何委員欣純：你這樣說得不清楚，到底有沒有啟動程序？如果要納管，須啟動什麼程序？這是第一點。","程序的過程到底有哪些、需要多久時間？在你們的一定規模之網路廣告平臺計算基準總說明裡提到一點：及時檢討更新納管業者的名單。針對所謂的「及時檢討更新」，在我的中文解讀裡面是指現在就宣布可以做了，那你要討論多久？"],["林署長俊秀：如同剛剛講的，對於被用來做詐騙的風險，我們會在跟165求證之後，馬上……"],["何委員欣純：所以媒體已經講那麼多天，你們還沒有求證喔？"],["林署長俊秀：還在求證當中。"],["何委員欣純：不能這樣啦！部長！"],["黃部長彥男：委員，我回去以後會再跟他們好好檢討流程。我們會儘快啦！這個確實是……"],["何委員欣純：依我看到的媒體來源，包括電子媒體、平面媒體，都在4月份甚至6月15日披露，也就是前幾天、上個禮拜的事情欸！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我回去以後會再跟數產署加速這個流程，早點確定，如果要納管就要早點納管。"],["何委員欣純：你給我一個時間點。上面的說明是「及時檢討更新」喔！"],["林署長俊秀：一個月內。"],["何委員欣純：一個月？"],["林署長俊秀：「內」。"],["何委員欣純：還要訂一個月內？都已經告訴你發生兩千案、都已經告訴你Threads平臺在Meta集團裡面了，這是眾所皆知，我問是否有一定的規模？你也告訴我有。那你們向警政署求證發生多少件需要一個月喔？"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，我們會以兩個禮拜完成。由於還是有一些程序，比如說我們要找專家學者認定、找司法單位共同參與等等，所以是不是能給我們兩個禮拜時間？"],["何委員欣純：兩個禮拜？我希望更快啦！因為照你剛剛這樣跟我講，表示你們跟警政署還沒有研商啦！連個案數字都還沒有求證啦！這個效率根本就顯示你無所謂、好像沒你的事一樣，我不能接受啦！部長，這不是今天發生的新聞喔！這已經是上個禮拜的新聞，甚至4月份就有人點出來了喔！"],["黃部長彥男：針對Threads的納管，我們會儘速，我會再要求他們。但如同他們剛剛講的，目前因為有些程序上的原因，大概需要兩個禮拜，我們會在兩個禮拜之內完成。"],["何委員欣純：好。最後，如同剛剛講的，對於Threads的納管應尊重程序，但是我認為要快。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["何委員欣純：針對詐騙，有一個你們還沒做到的，雖然現在有廣告實名制，資安院也有所謂的AI機器人、百萬機器人大軍在看所有網路上投放的廣告是不是詐騙廣告，第一，我要給予肯定；但第二點是做事不能做一半，要做完整啦！什麼叫做「做一半」？以我詢問出來的資料，你們的機制是由AI百萬機器人在網路上「海巡」，巡查到疑似詐騙廣告時，可以舉發。舉發之後當然需要認定，認定之後，根據詐騙內容歸哪個部會管，你們會通知。但是通知之後，如果確定是詐騙訊息，你們在現在的詐騙通報查詢網上只會告訴我們……譬如說，我們找到的這一則是由金管會確認是詐騙訊息、已通知FB移除，而我要問的是到底有沒有移除、到底有沒有下架？什麼時間、有沒有時效？可不可以告訴我它真的已經移除、真的已經下架了？","我找到一個例子，就是圖片旁邊這個美女在她的粉專上貼文，內容就是告訴你要投資理財，這個被認定為詐騙廣告，也被通報了，但是被通報之後，很抱歉，現在我在網路上還是可以看到她。也就是說，雖然通報了、知道這是詐騙廣告，6月12日也通知下架了，但是第一，我不知道有沒有下架、有沒有移除，因為目前影片還在、連結還在，粉專也還在，沒有下架啊！"],["黃部長彥男：這個請次長回答。"],["林次長宜敬：如同委員所講的，事實上，詐騙集團在臉書上的操作方法分成三個階段，第一個是設立一些帳號，接著是以這些帳號開粉專，在粉專裡面投放詐騙廣告。目前政府跟民眾看到的都是詐騙廣告還有這些粉專，但看不到其來源，也就是臉書那些帳號，所以我們現在正密集與Meta協商，也直接找了美國總部的人，正在討論。我們要求在我們通報以後，他們必須把最終來源、這些帳號直接移除，現在Meta已經答應他們會進行這樣的工作。"],["何委員欣純：Meta有答應？他們有答應？在多久時間內要回復我們什麼時候做到？"],["林次長宜敬：據他們的說法，他們已經在執行了。但對於這些事情，因為Meta整個產品非常複雜……"],["何委員欣純：非常多。"],["林次長宜敬：所以他們會一步步來做。我們正在密切督促他們，要確實把這件事落實。"],["何委員欣純：好，我相信你，希望能夠做到。","我也希望在詐騙通報查詢網裡面增加一個功能，就是嫁接Meta，包括他們什麼時候真的移除、什麼時候真的下架、甚至連源頭統統下架移除，我們在詐騙通報查詢網上可不可以看到？那可以增加國人對我們的信心。"],["林次長宜敬：現在我們網詐通報查詢網要求Meta把詐騙廣告移除的時候，還必須用人工的方式檢查有沒有確實移除。我們也已經正式跟美國的Meta提出要求，就是要求他們開放程式的API，讓我們能透過程式的方法自動檢查是不是已經下架，我們已經正式向他們提出這個要求了。"],["何委員欣純：好，那就拜託了，我希望能夠達成。我希望看到你們真正讓國人知道政府有在做事、數位發展部在專業上、在技術上，甚至有面對民心想要根除詐騙這樣的決心，起碼從這個詐騙通報查詢網裡面，我可以看到有動作，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席：麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢；委員楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報；委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請數發部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":442,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-16","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林國成","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","葛如鈞","劉書彬","黃健豪","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","魯明哲","廖先翔","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男就「推動 AI 之產業發展政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146001_00016"}}}