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770.718, \"end\": 771.598, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 771.598, \"end\": 771.718, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 771.718, \"end\": 771.838, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 771.838, \"end\": 771.938, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 771.938, \"end\": 772.098, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"昭\", \"start\": 772.098, \"end\": 772.118, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:01,170\n莊部長委員好部長現在這個菸的稅跟捐的比例是怎麼樣待會就跟委員報告那當初這個菸奶防治法是112年3月修正的時候你們有經過試算嗎\n\n2\n00:00:30,471 --> 00:00:57,934\n這個部分他們有各的等一下沒關係請署長幫忙回答不好意思委員可不可以麻煩是是是燕捐跟冤稅的比例以及112年3月煙害防治法修正的時候你們有沒有估算過這個每一年收到捐燕捐跟冤稅的這個金額是我現在手上\n\n3\n00:01:01,758 --> 00:01:29,712\n煙捐我們以113年度煙捐是264.21億這個不是負稅嘛那煙稅的部分呢煙稅是155.88億所以大概捐是稅的一倍嗯差不多大多100那如果是這個樣子的話這幾年的陶漏加熱煙的部分漏掉了多少稅\n\n4\n00:01:30,871 --> 00:01:42,107\n漏掉了多少捐因為加熱菸現在是還沒有經過衛福部許可所以我們沒有辦法因為這幾年沒有通過使得捐跟稅各少了多少嘛你們的估算\n\n5\n00:01:44,022 --> 00:02:09,765\n包括委員因為這個蠻難估算因為根據衛福委的說法其實它這個是有替代效果簡單講它如果沒有加熱菸可抽它會抽其他的菸所以我跟你說啦市面上都在抽加熱菸立法委員你去抓院會旁邊兩黨三黨全部都在吸加熱菸啦我親眼所見我在這邊作證包括民進黨國民黨跟民眾黨\n\n6\n00:02:11,929 --> 00:02:34,646\n抽菸的立法委員裡面大多數都是吸加熱菸啦所以我就是要問你說你們當初有沒有做稅市的評估嘛因為你如果有評估的時候你就會去知道說這個你們原來估計大概是多少後來收到多少相減就是可以評估大概漏掉多少\n\n7\n00:02:36,174 --> 00:03:04,699\n跟委員報告因為煙稀食量的減少有的人是會認為是因為煙稅跟煙捐多課了所以它影響了消費所以我們因為現在沒辦法去獨立說煙變少是什麼原因這是我們困難的地方但是我們可以看到是說現在對加熱煙的部分我們也是在等如果它許可的我們這個部分一定會去課徵這樣好那請回座請衛福部的邱部長\n\n8\n00:03:07,486 --> 00:03:07,710\n來邱部長\n\n9\n00:03:14,538 --> 00:03:43,061\n總部長請回座部長112年3月12號陰害防治法施行那你當時也是在衛環委員會所以我們透過這個東西是很不容易但是你們後面加了一個要健康風險評估這我們當然也贊成可是健康風險評估請問什麼時候開始送件到現在將近兩年半了\n\n10\n00:03:44,002 --> 00:04:00,119\n超過九個季了到現在還沒有任何一家通過啊健康風險評估沒有通過的原因是因為評估得很嚴格等於是實質上雖然立法院通過了但是你們這個評估委員會再把關然後再限縮還是\n\n11\n00:04:02,361 --> 00:04:19,823\n沒有人要送件還是送件的這些廠商都是阿力不打包括研究公司都亂七八糟九個月通不過到底是什麼原因可不可以告訴我們好謝謝委員我想我們在NHK日報裡面就是有審查的一個健康風險評估審查辦法\n\n12\n00:04:21,685 --> 00:04:36,697\n那其實有七家申請六家什麼時候開始申請這個時程等一下請吳署長跟報告一下那我們一定是因為這涉及人民權利跟公眾健康所以我們依照審查辦法循著審查的程序組成審查會\n\n13\n00:04:38,238 --> 00:04:47,920\n並持科學實證專業及保護公眾健康最高目標,其實是很謹慎一程序在辦理那實際上的詳細的比較細的狀況,過程請吳司長跟委員報告跟委員報告,第一家送成的是在當年112年的6月底\n\n14\n00:05:01,687 --> 00:05:24,622\n那到現在兩年了都審不過那因為審查的過程中有時候因為委員的要求看到業者送出來的資料有一些不完整或缺漏那會請業者再重新送件那每一屆業者他再重新補正資料的時候那各家都不一樣你能不能公布那個審查的流程的那些細節啊我現在要問的問題是什麼意思你越慢通過\n\n15\n00:05:26,209 --> 00:05:51,179\n漏掉更多的稅跟捐啦這兩年多來加熱菸因為你們審查結果都一直遲遲不通過使得國庫應該收到的稅以及應該收到的這個菸捐啊到現在都收不到你們現在用抓私菸用罰款其實跟稅跟捐的比例啊還是不成比例你知道嗎每一年國家因為這樣漏掉多少錢啊那\n\n16\n00:05:53,091 --> 00:06:18,486\n這個審查是這樣子啦我要把它定成無比嚴苛那我立法院當初包括部長在的衛黃委員會包括我們本院的院會為什麼要通過加熱菸經過健康風險評估之後就可以審查就可以通過那你等於是用健康風險評估把這個東西掐死了嘛如果你審查的東西是用這樣的態度那我要問普建\n\n17\n00:06:19,710 --> 00:06:26,974\n你們因為這個社會齁大家對這個責任爭議不休你知道嗎甚至有人認為說這個是煙現在的捲煙業者在中間做梗讓加熱煙不能夠合法上市讓捲煙可以繼續佔有它的市場外面各種揣測陰謀論一大堆啊\n\n18\n00:06:46,383 --> 00:07:03,942\n我是覺得這個有賴衛福部你要把你們審查的經過細節還有欠缺什麼東西公佈而不是讓人家還有人用政治陰謀論說因為上層反對所以掛一個審查在那邊事實上就是不給你過\n\n19\n00:07:05,885 --> 00:07:24,099\n也有這樣子的政治陰謀論也有從經濟角度說因為捲菸的這個業者希望不要通過所以去施力那不通過他就能夠更長久的佔有市場你知道嗎中華民國政府所擁有的菸酒公司投資這個加熱菸的設備\n\n20\n00:07:26,758 --> 00:07:53,440\n早就都投資進去了錢都花了等著在那個合可之後能夠製造販賣你把合法的管道用這樣的方式縮減的話那就會助長非法嘛再來第二個問題是現在已經在吸加熱菸的人那麼多立法委員你去抓嘛你每天都宴會外面去尋就好啦我跟你講一抓一大把\n\n21\n00:07:54,813 --> 00:08:23,337\n然後在立法院眼看著這麼多的同仁在違法我是不抽菸的啦看著這麼多同仁在違法然後我們那個審查就是九計啦沒個進度你看第一家兩年啦審一個健康風險評估要兩年那七家申請七家都不過到現在都不過那個請財政部再幫忙說明一下菸酒公司送多久啦\n\n22\n00:08:28,542 --> 00:08:55,975\n菸酒公司送件大概已經有超過一年了應該有超過一年以上了超過一年以上到底多久啊實際的時間因為他們你可不可以同意我我跟你講我現在跟你同意你們審查官民監控署要照程序來然後叫你補件你們的菸酒公司補件審查數據是這樣子我問一個問題再過半年不夠菸酒公司董事長下台要不要\n\n23\n00:08:59,025 --> 00:09:19,827\n健康風險評估上限一年多審不完做不出來啊是因為普見什麼這些資料不齊備那一天九公司鮮有疏失嘛我也沒有很嚴苛你回去跟他提案講再過半年審不過他辭職要不要要不要立這個軍令狀\n\n24\n00:09:21,483 --> 00:09:38,354\n我想這個部分他也一直都非常努力的對於我們衛福部相關的意見他們也都在調整那我覺得我們所知是113年2月送件的那113年2月送件到現在一年多啊那中間補件過幾次啊開過幾次啊你跟他講他越慢我們中華民國就損失更多的錢啊\n\n25\n00:09:46,650 --> 00:10:15,980\n因為第一個煙酒公司做這個焦熱煙它可以賺錢第二個合法的管道真的符合了之後這些非法的自然就會減少很多那我們的煙稅煙捐都可以都收得到這對社會有很多的好處那再加上它是職責所在煙酒公司董事長職責所在再半年不過我會請它下台這樣好不好他已經非常努力在做了是\n\n26\n00:10:16,886 --> 00:10:19,316\n非常濃烈跟社會大眾講什麼人一定不會過啊\n\n27\n00:10:21,238 --> 00:10:49,938\n你是講一句我非常努力有衛福部來說明說明請說明一下跟委員報告Angel公司在113年2月左右送件那中間經過了審查會以後推了5次的件那最後一次是在今年的4月底退還給財政部在他被退了5次件5次的理由都不一樣嗎還是每一次都找不同的理由你不能夠一次把理由跟他講清楚叫他一次補嗎\n\n28\n00:10:50,879 --> 00:11:10,368\n我們都很明確的告訴他需要準備哪一些文件聽到沒有很明確告訴他所以如果再補不來再通不過這個研究公司的董事長真的沒有什麼好做的啦坐在那個地方讓中華民國每天在損失稅跟捐然後損失你研究公司該賺的錢我講的有沒有道理\n\n29\n00:11:13,857 --> 00:11:27,229\n回去想想看那你問我希望你們國民健康署這個審查的過程喔細節給人家公佈對社會招公信可以嗎我們選來以後該公佈的一定會公佈而且一定會讓社會明瞭\n\n30\n00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:48,781\n什麼理由要補什麼件也讓人家知道嘛專家都會知道你要求的補件有沒有道理不是啊我說對下派大眾說明我們立法委員不知道啊不然你把各公司的補件的理由通通算入份報告到我們的辦公室來啊算到財政委員會來啊讓我們知道你這個補件到底有沒有道理啊\n\n31\n00:11:50,779 --> 00:12:13,156\n好不好主席我要求他們這個官民監督署審查的過程中要求補正的資料跟開會的次數補正的內容送到財政委員會來給每一位委員一份報告我們會依政府資訊公開法相關的資訊送給財政委員會對啦你就送給本委員會啦好不好可以公開的可以送的我們都一定會送\n\n32\n00:12:14,176 --> 00:12:26,323\n所以有一些不能公開不能送的你那些什麼地方什麼原因不能公開不能送你要住民喔讓我們能夠了解喔不然我們還不知道你審查為什麼可以審查九計咧從法律通過到現在九計啊這不是三計不是四計啊\n\n33\n00:12:35,010 --> 00:12:52,118\n我們這個非常的注重所以我們一直瞭解到他整個說非常注重所以非常嚴苛所以都通不過所以大概我們依法來盡量來公告相關的資訊部長不要只站在自己的本位啦我為什麼會先問財政部長國家每天在損失錢啊好謝謝來接下來我們請賴昭偉來\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1170\t莊部長委員好部長現在這個菸的稅跟捐的比例是怎麼樣待會就跟委員報告那當初這個菸奶防治法是112年3月修正的時候你們有經過試算嗎\n30471\t57934\t這個部分他們有各的等一下沒關係請署長幫忙回答不好意思委員可不可以麻煩是是是燕捐跟冤稅的比例以及112年3月煙害防治法修正的時候你們有沒有估算過這個每一年收到捐燕捐跟冤稅的這個金額是我現在手上\n61758\t89712\t煙捐我們以113年度煙捐是264.21億這個不是負稅嘛那煙稅的部分呢煙稅是155.88億所以大概捐是稅的一倍嗯 差不多大多100那如果是這個樣子的話這幾年的陶漏加熱煙的部分漏掉了多少稅\n90871\t102107\t漏掉了多少捐因為加熱菸現在是還沒有經過衛福部許可所以我們沒有辦法因為這幾年沒有通過使得捐跟稅各少了多少嘛你們的估算\n104022\t129765\t包括委員 因為這個蠻難估算因為根據衛福委的說法其實它這個是有替代效果簡單講 它如果沒有加熱菸可抽它會抽其他的菸所以 我跟你說啦市面上都在抽加熱菸立法委員你去抓 院會旁邊兩黨 三黨全部都在吸加熱菸啦我親眼所見 我在這邊作證包括民進黨 國民黨跟民眾黨\n131929\t154646\t抽菸的立法委員裡面大多數都是吸加熱菸啦所以我就是要問你說你們當初有沒有做稅市的評估嘛因為你如果有評估的時候你就會去知道說這個你們原來估計大概是多少後來收到多少相減就是可以評估大概漏掉多少\n156174\t184699\t跟委員報告因為煙稀食量的減少有的人是會認為是因為煙稅跟煙捐多課了所以它影響了消費所以我們因為現在沒辦法去獨立說煙變少是什麼原因這是我們困難的地方但是我們可以看到是說現在對加熱煙的部分我們也是在等如果它許可的我們這個部分一定會去課徵這樣好 那請回座請衛福部的邱部長\n187486\t187710\t來 邱部長\n194538\t223061\t總部長請回座部長112年3月12號 陰害防治法施行那你當時也是在衛環委員會所以我們透過這個東西是很不容易但是你們後面加了一個要健康風險評估 這我們當然也贊成可是健康風險評估 請問什麼時候開始送件到現在將近兩年半了\n224002\t240119\t超過九個季了到現在還沒有任何一家通過啊 健康風險評估沒有通過的原因是因為評估得很嚴格等於是實質上雖然立法院通過了但是你們這個評估委員會再把關然後再限縮還是\n242361\t259823\t沒有人要送件 還是送件的這些廠商都是阿力不打 包括研究公司都亂七八糟 九個月通不過到底是什麼原因 可不可以告訴我們好 謝謝委員我想我們在NHK日報裡面就是有審查的一個健康風險評估審查辦法\n261685\t276697\t那其實有七家申請六家什麼時候開始申請這個時程等一下請吳署長跟報告一下那我們一定是因為這涉及人民權利跟公眾健康所以我們依照審查辦法循著審查的程序組成審查會\n278238\t287920\t並持科學實證專業及保護公眾健康最高目標,其實是很謹慎一程序在辦理那實際上的詳細的比較細的狀況,過程請吳司長跟委員報告跟委員報告,第一家送成的是在當年112年的6月底\n301687\t324622\t那到現在兩年了都審不過那因為審查的過程中有時候因為委員的要求看到業者送出來的資料有一些不完整或缺漏那會請業者再重新送件那每一屆業者他再重新補正資料的時候那各家都不一樣你能不能公布那個審查的流程的那些細節啊我現在要問的問題是什麼意思你越慢通過\n326209\t351179\t漏掉更多的稅跟捐啦這兩年多來加熱菸因為你們審查結果都一直遲遲不通過使得國庫應該收到的稅以及應該收到的這個菸捐啊到現在都收不到你們現在用抓私菸用罰款其實跟稅跟捐的比例啊還是不成比例你知道嗎每一年國家因為這樣漏掉多少錢啊那\n353091\t378486\t這個審查是這樣子啦我要把它定成無比嚴苛那我立法院當初包括部長在的衛黃委員會包括我們本院的院會為什麼要通過加熱菸經過健康風險評估之後就可以審查就可以通過那你等於是用健康風險評估把這個東西掐死了嘛如果你審查的東西是用這樣的態度那我要問普建\n379710\t386974\t你們因為這個社會齁大家對這個責任爭議不休你知道嗎甚至有人認為說這個是煙現在的捲煙業者在中間做梗讓加熱煙不能夠合法上市讓捲煙可以繼續佔有它的市場外面各種揣測陰謀論一大堆啊\n406383\t423942\t我是覺得這個有賴衛福部你要把你們審查的經過細節還有欠缺什麼東西公佈而不是讓人家還有人用政治陰謀論說因為上層反對所以掛一個審查在那邊事實上就是不給你過\n425885\t444099\t也有這樣子的政治陰謀論也有從經濟角度說因為捲菸的這個業者希望不要通過所以去施力那不通過他就能夠更長久的佔有市場你知道嗎中華民國政府所擁有的菸酒公司投資這個加熱菸的設備\n446758\t473440\t早就都投資進去了錢都花了等著在那個合可之後能夠製造販賣你把合法的管道用這樣的方式縮減的話那就會助長非法嘛再來第二個問題是現在已經在吸加熱菸的人那麼多立法委員你去抓嘛你每天都宴會外面去尋就好啦我跟你講一抓一大把\n474813\t503337\t然後在立法院眼看著這麼多的同仁在違法我是不抽菸的啦看著這麼多同仁在違法然後我們那個審查就是九計啦沒個進度你看第一家兩年啦審一個健康風險評估要兩年那七家申請 七家都不過到現在都不過那個 請財政部再幫忙說明一下菸酒公司送多久啦\n508542\t535975\t菸酒公司送件大概已經有超過一年了應該有超過一年以上了超過一年以上到底多久啊實際的時間因為他們你可不可以同意我我跟你講我現在跟你同意你們審查官民監控署要照程序來然後叫你補件你們的菸酒公司補件審查數據是這樣子我問一個問題再過半年不夠菸酒公司董事長下台要不要\n539025\t559827\t健康風險評估上限一年多審不完 做不出來啊是因為普見什麼這些資料不齊備那一天九公司鮮有疏失嘛我也沒有很嚴苛 你回去跟他提案講再過半年審不過 他辭職要不要 要不要立這個軍令狀\n561483\t578354\t我想這個部分他也一直都非常努力的對於我們衛福部相關的意見他們也都在調整那我覺得我們所知是113年2月送件的那113年2月送件到現在一年多啊那中間補件過幾次啊 開過幾次啊你跟他講 他越慢我們中華民國就損失更多的錢啊\n586650\t615980\t因為第一個 煙酒公司做這個焦熱煙它可以賺錢第二個 合法的管道真的符合了之後這些非法的自然就會減少很多那我們的煙稅 煙捐都可以 都收得到這對社會有很多的好處那再加上它是職責所在煙酒公司董事長職責所在再半年不過 我會請它下台這樣好不好他已經非常努力在做了 是\n616886\t619316\t非常濃烈跟社會大眾講什麼人一定不會過啊\n621238\t649938\t你是講一句我非常努力有衛福部來說明說明 請說明一下跟委員報告 Angel公司在113年2月左右送件那中間經過了審查會以後推了5次的件那最後一次是在今年的4月底退還給財政部在他被退了5次件5次的理由都不一樣嗎還是每一次都找不同的理由你不能夠一次把理由跟他講清楚叫他一次補嗎\n650879\t670368\t我們都很明確的告訴他需要準備哪一些文件聽到沒有 很明確告訴他所以如果再補不來 再通不過這個研究公司的董事長真的沒有什麼好做的啦坐在那個地方讓中華民國每天在損失稅跟捐然後損失你研究公司該賺的錢我講的有沒有道理\n673857\t687229\t回去想想看那你問我希望你們國民健康署這個審查的過程喔細節給人家公佈對社會招公信可以嗎我們選來以後該公佈的一定會公佈而且一定會讓社會明瞭\n688200\t708781\t什麼理由 要補什麼件 也讓人家知道嘛專家都會知道你要求的補件有沒有道理不是啊 我說對下派大眾說明我們立法委員不知道啊不然你把各公司的補件的理由通通算入份報告到我們的辦公室來啊算到財政委員會來啊讓我們知道你這個補件到底有沒有道理啊\n710779\t733156\t好不好主席我要求他們這個官民監督署審查的過程中要求補正的資料跟開會的次數補正的內容送到財政委員會來給每一位委員一份報告我們會依政府資訊公開法相關的資訊送給財政委員會對啦你就送給本委員會啦好不好可以公開的可以送的我們都一定會送\n734176\t746323\t所以有一些不能公開不能送的你那些什麼地方什麼原因不能公開不能送你要住民喔讓我們能夠了解喔不然我們還不知道你審查為什麼可以審查九計咧從法律通過到現在九計啊這不是三計不是四計啊\n755010\t772118\t我們這個非常的注重所以我們一直瞭解到他整個說非常注重所以非常嚴苛所以都通不過所以大概我們依法來盡量來公告相關的資訊部長不要只站在自己的本位啦我為什麼會先問財政部長國家每天在損失錢啊好 謝謝來接下來我們請賴昭偉來\n","txt":"莊部長委員好部長現在這個菸的稅跟捐的比例是怎麼樣待會就跟委員報告那當初這個菸奶防治法是112年3月修正的時候你們有經過試算嗎\n這個部分他們有各的等一下沒關係請署長幫忙回答不好意思委員可不可以麻煩是是是燕捐跟冤稅的比例以及112年3月煙害防治法修正的時候你們有沒有估算過這個每一年收到捐燕捐跟冤稅的這個金額是我現在手上\n煙捐我們以113年度煙捐是264.21億這個不是負稅嘛那煙稅的部分呢煙稅是155.88億所以大概捐是稅的一倍嗯 差不多大多100那如果是這個樣子的話這幾年的陶漏加熱煙的部分漏掉了多少稅\n漏掉了多少捐因為加熱菸現在是還沒有經過衛福部許可所以我們沒有辦法因為這幾年沒有通過使得捐跟稅各少了多少嘛你們的估算\n包括委員 因為這個蠻難估算因為根據衛福委的說法其實它這個是有替代效果簡單講 它如果沒有加熱菸可抽它會抽其他的菸所以 我跟你說啦市面上都在抽加熱菸立法委員你去抓 院會旁邊兩黨 三黨全部都在吸加熱菸啦我親眼所見 我在這邊作證包括民進黨 國民黨跟民眾黨\n抽菸的立法委員裡面大多數都是吸加熱菸啦所以我就是要問你說你們當初有沒有做稅市的評估嘛因為你如果有評估的時候你就會去知道說這個你們原來估計大概是多少後來收到多少相減就是可以評估大概漏掉多少\n跟委員報告因為煙稀食量的減少有的人是會認為是因為煙稅跟煙捐多課了所以它影響了消費所以我們因為現在沒辦法去獨立說煙變少是什麼原因這是我們困難的地方但是我們可以看到是說現在對加熱煙的部分我們也是在等如果它許可的我們這個部分一定會去課徵這樣好 那請回座請衛福部的邱部長\n來 邱部長\n總部長請回座部長112年3月12號 陰害防治法施行那你當時也是在衛環委員會所以我們透過這個東西是很不容易但是你們後面加了一個要健康風險評估 這我們當然也贊成可是健康風險評估 請問什麼時候開始送件到現在將近兩年半了\n超過九個季了到現在還沒有任何一家通過啊 健康風險評估沒有通過的原因是因為評估得很嚴格等於是實質上雖然立法院通過了但是你們這個評估委員會再把關然後再限縮還是\n沒有人要送件 還是送件的這些廠商都是阿力不打 包括研究公司都亂七八糟 九個月通不過到底是什麼原因 可不可以告訴我們好 謝謝委員我想我們在NHK日報裡面就是有審查的一個健康風險評估審查辦法\n那其實有七家申請六家什麼時候開始申請這個時程等一下請吳署長跟報告一下那我們一定是因為這涉及人民權利跟公眾健康所以我們依照審查辦法循著審查的程序組成審查會\n並持科學實證專業及保護公眾健康最高目標,其實是很謹慎一程序在辦理那實際上的詳細的比較細的狀況,過程請吳司長跟委員報告跟委員報告,第一家送成的是在當年112年的6月底\n那到現在兩年了都審不過那因為審查的過程中有時候因為委員的要求看到業者送出來的資料有一些不完整或缺漏那會請業者再重新送件那每一屆業者他再重新補正資料的時候那各家都不一樣你能不能公布那個審查的流程的那些細節啊我現在要問的問題是什麼意思你越慢通過\n漏掉更多的稅跟捐啦這兩年多來加熱菸因為你們審查結果都一直遲遲不通過使得國庫應該收到的稅以及應該收到的這個菸捐啊到現在都收不到你們現在用抓私菸用罰款其實跟稅跟捐的比例啊還是不成比例你知道嗎每一年國家因為這樣漏掉多少錢啊那\n這個審查是這樣子啦我要把它定成無比嚴苛那我立法院當初包括部長在的衛黃委員會包括我們本院的院會為什麼要通過加熱菸經過健康風險評估之後就可以審查就可以通過那你等於是用健康風險評估把這個東西掐死了嘛如果你審查的東西是用這樣的態度那我要問普建\n你們因為這個社會齁大家對這個責任爭議不休你知道嗎甚至有人認為說這個是煙現在的捲煙業者在中間做梗讓加熱煙不能夠合法上市讓捲煙可以繼續佔有它的市場外面各種揣測陰謀論一大堆啊\n我是覺得這個有賴衛福部你要把你們審查的經過細節還有欠缺什麼東西公佈而不是讓人家還有人用政治陰謀論說因為上層反對所以掛一個審查在那邊事實上就是不給你過\n也有這樣子的政治陰謀論也有從經濟角度說因為捲菸的這個業者希望不要通過所以去施力那不通過他就能夠更長久的佔有市場你知道嗎中華民國政府所擁有的菸酒公司投資這個加熱菸的設備\n早就都投資進去了錢都花了等著在那個合可之後能夠製造販賣你把合法的管道用這樣的方式縮減的話那就會助長非法嘛再來第二個問題是現在已經在吸加熱菸的人那麼多立法委員你去抓嘛你每天都宴會外面去尋就好啦我跟你講一抓一大把\n然後在立法院眼看著這麼多的同仁在違法我是不抽菸的啦看著這麼多同仁在違法然後我們那個審查就是九計啦沒個進度你看第一家兩年啦審一個健康風險評估要兩年那七家申請 七家都不過到現在都不過那個 請財政部再幫忙說明一下菸酒公司送多久啦\n菸酒公司送件大概已經有超過一年了應該有超過一年以上了超過一年以上到底多久啊實際的時間因為他們你可不可以同意我我跟你講我現在跟你同意你們審查官民監控署要照程序來然後叫你補件你們的菸酒公司補件審查數據是這樣子我問一個問題再過半年不夠菸酒公司董事長下台要不要\n健康風險評估上限一年多審不完 做不出來啊是因為普見什麼這些資料不齊備那一天九公司鮮有疏失嘛我也沒有很嚴苛 你回去跟他提案講再過半年審不過 他辭職要不要 要不要立這個軍令狀\n我想這個部分他也一直都非常努力的對於我們衛福部相關的意見他們也都在調整那我覺得我們所知是113年2月送件的那113年2月送件到現在一年多啊那中間補件過幾次啊 開過幾次啊你跟他講 他越慢我們中華民國就損失更多的錢啊\n因為第一個 煙酒公司做這個焦熱煙它可以賺錢第二個 合法的管道真的符合了之後這些非法的自然就會減少很多那我們的煙稅 煙捐都可以 都收得到這對社會有很多的好處那再加上它是職責所在煙酒公司董事長職責所在再半年不過 我會請它下台這樣好不好他已經非常努力在做了 是\n非常濃烈跟社會大眾講什麼人一定不會過啊\n你是講一句我非常努力有衛福部來說明說明 請說明一下跟委員報告 Angel公司在113年2月左右送件那中間經過了審查會以後推了5次的件那最後一次是在今年的4月底退還給財政部在他被退了5次件5次的理由都不一樣嗎還是每一次都找不同的理由你不能夠一次把理由跟他講清楚叫他一次補嗎\n我們都很明確的告訴他需要準備哪一些文件聽到沒有 很明確告訴他所以如果再補不來 再通不過這個研究公司的董事長真的沒有什麼好做的啦坐在那個地方讓中華民國每天在損失稅跟捐然後損失你研究公司該賺的錢我講的有沒有道理\n回去想想看那你問我希望你們國民健康署這個審查的過程喔細節給人家公佈對社會招公信可以嗎我們選來以後該公佈的一定會公佈而且一定會讓社會明瞭\n什麼理由 要補什麼件 也讓人家知道嘛專家都會知道你要求的補件有沒有道理不是啊 我說對下派大眾說明我們立法委員不知道啊不然你把各公司的補件的理由通通算入份報告到我們的辦公室來啊算到財政委員會來啊讓我們知道你這個補件到底有沒有道理啊\n好不好主席我要求他們這個官民監督署審查的過程中要求補正的資料跟開會的次數補正的內容送到財政委員會來給每一位委員一份報告我們會依政府資訊公開法相關的資訊送給財政委員會對啦你就送給本委員會啦好不好可以公開的可以送的我們都一定會送\n所以有一些不能公開不能送的你那些什麼地方什麼原因不能公開不能送你要住民喔讓我們能夠了解喔不然我們還不知道你審查為什麼可以審查九計咧從法律通過到現在九計啊這不是三計不是四計啊\n我們這個非常的注重所以我們一直瞭解到他整個說非常注重所以非常嚴苛所以都通不過所以大概我們依法來盡量來公告相關的資訊部長不要只站在自己的本位啦我為什麼會先問財政部長國家每天在損失錢啊好 謝謝來接下來我們請賴昭偉來\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.170\n莊部長委員好部長現在這個菸的稅跟捐的比例是怎麼樣待會就跟委員報告那當初這個菸奶防治法是112年3月修正的時候你們有經過試算嗎\n\n00:30.471 --> 00:57.934\n這個部分他們有各的等一下沒關係請署長幫忙回答不好意思委員可不可以麻煩是是是燕捐跟冤稅的比例以及112年3月煙害防治法修正的時候你們有沒有估算過這個每一年收到捐燕捐跟冤稅的這個金額是我現在手上\n\n01:01.758 --> 01:29.712\n煙捐我們以113年度煙捐是264.21億這個不是負稅嘛那煙稅的部分呢煙稅是155.88億所以大概捐是稅的一倍嗯差不多大多100那如果是這個樣子的話這幾年的陶漏加熱煙的部分漏掉了多少稅\n\n01:30.871 --> 01:42.107\n漏掉了多少捐因為加熱菸現在是還沒有經過衛福部許可所以我們沒有辦法因為這幾年沒有通過使得捐跟稅各少了多少嘛你們的估算\n\n01:44.022 --> 02:09.765\n包括委員因為這個蠻難估算因為根據衛福委的說法其實它這個是有替代效果簡單講它如果沒有加熱菸可抽它會抽其他的菸所以我跟你說啦市面上都在抽加熱菸立法委員你去抓院會旁邊兩黨三黨全部都在吸加熱菸啦我親眼所見我在這邊作證包括民進黨國民黨跟民眾黨\n\n02:11.929 --> 02:34.646\n抽菸的立法委員裡面大多數都是吸加熱菸啦所以我就是要問你說你們當初有沒有做稅市的評估嘛因為你如果有評估的時候你就會去知道說這個你們原來估計大概是多少後來收到多少相減就是可以評估大概漏掉多少\n\n02:36.174 --> 03:04.699\n跟委員報告因為煙稀食量的減少有的人是會認為是因為煙稅跟煙捐多課了所以它影響了消費所以我們因為現在沒辦法去獨立說煙變少是什麼原因這是我們困難的地方但是我們可以看到是說現在對加熱煙的部分我們也是在等如果它許可的我們這個部分一定會去課徵這樣好那請回座請衛福部的邱部長\n\n03:07.486 --> 03:07.710\n來邱部長\n\n03:14.538 --> 03:43.061\n總部長請回座部長112年3月12號陰害防治法施行那你當時也是在衛環委員會所以我們透過這個東西是很不容易但是你們後面加了一個要健康風險評估這我們當然也贊成可是健康風險評估請問什麼時候開始送件到現在將近兩年半了\n\n03:44.002 --> 04:00.119\n超過九個季了到現在還沒有任何一家通過啊健康風險評估沒有通過的原因是因為評估得很嚴格等於是實質上雖然立法院通過了但是你們這個評估委員會再把關然後再限縮還是\n\n04:02.361 --> 04:19.823\n沒有人要送件還是送件的這些廠商都是阿力不打包括研究公司都亂七八糟九個月通不過到底是什麼原因可不可以告訴我們好謝謝委員我想我們在NHK日報裡面就是有審查的一個健康風險評估審查辦法\n\n04:21.685 --> 04:36.697\n那其實有七家申請六家什麼時候開始申請這個時程等一下請吳署長跟報告一下那我們一定是因為這涉及人民權利跟公眾健康所以我們依照審查辦法循著審查的程序組成審查會\n\n04:38.238 --> 04:47.920\n並持科學實證專業及保護公眾健康最高目標,其實是很謹慎一程序在辦理那實際上的詳細的比較細的狀況,過程請吳司長跟委員報告跟委員報告,第一家送成的是在當年112年的6月底\n\n05:01.687 --> 05:24.622\n那到現在兩年了都審不過那因為審查的過程中有時候因為委員的要求看到業者送出來的資料有一些不完整或缺漏那會請業者再重新送件那每一屆業者他再重新補正資料的時候那各家都不一樣你能不能公布那個審查的流程的那些細節啊我現在要問的問題是什麼意思你越慢通過\n\n05:26.209 --> 05:51.179\n漏掉更多的稅跟捐啦這兩年多來加熱菸因為你們審查結果都一直遲遲不通過使得國庫應該收到的稅以及應該收到的這個菸捐啊到現在都收不到你們現在用抓私菸用罰款其實跟稅跟捐的比例啊還是不成比例你知道嗎每一年國家因為這樣漏掉多少錢啊那\n\n05:53.091 --> 06:18.486\n這個審查是這樣子啦我要把它定成無比嚴苛那我立法院當初包括部長在的衛黃委員會包括我們本院的院會為什麼要通過加熱菸經過健康風險評估之後就可以審查就可以通過那你等於是用健康風險評估把這個東西掐死了嘛如果你審查的東西是用這樣的態度那我要問普建\n\n06:19.710 --> 06:26.974\n你們因為這個社會齁大家對這個責任爭議不休你知道嗎甚至有人認為說這個是煙現在的捲煙業者在中間做梗讓加熱煙不能夠合法上市讓捲煙可以繼續佔有它的市場外面各種揣測陰謀論一大堆啊\n\n06:46.383 --> 07:03.942\n我是覺得這個有賴衛福部你要把你們審查的經過細節還有欠缺什麼東西公佈而不是讓人家還有人用政治陰謀論說因為上層反對所以掛一個審查在那邊事實上就是不給你過\n\n07:05.885 --> 07:24.099\n也有這樣子的政治陰謀論也有從經濟角度說因為捲菸的這個業者希望不要通過所以去施力那不通過他就能夠更長久的佔有市場你知道嗎中華民國政府所擁有的菸酒公司投資這個加熱菸的設備\n\n07:26.758 --> 07:53.440\n早就都投資進去了錢都花了等著在那個合可之後能夠製造販賣你把合法的管道用這樣的方式縮減的話那就會助長非法嘛再來第二個問題是現在已經在吸加熱菸的人那麼多立法委員你去抓嘛你每天都宴會外面去尋就好啦我跟你講一抓一大把\n\n07:54.813 --> 08:23.337\n然後在立法院眼看著這麼多的同仁在違法我是不抽菸的啦看著這麼多同仁在違法然後我們那個審查就是九計啦沒個進度你看第一家兩年啦審一個健康風險評估要兩年那七家申請七家都不過到現在都不過那個請財政部再幫忙說明一下菸酒公司送多久啦\n\n08:28.542 --> 08:55.975\n菸酒公司送件大概已經有超過一年了應該有超過一年以上了超過一年以上到底多久啊實際的時間因為他們你可不可以同意我我跟你講我現在跟你同意你們審查官民監控署要照程序來然後叫你補件你們的菸酒公司補件審查數據是這樣子我問一個問題再過半年不夠菸酒公司董事長下台要不要\n\n08:59.025 --> 09:19.827\n健康風險評估上限一年多審不完做不出來啊是因為普見什麼這些資料不齊備那一天九公司鮮有疏失嘛我也沒有很嚴苛你回去跟他提案講再過半年審不過他辭職要不要要不要立這個軍令狀\n\n09:21.483 --> 09:38.354\n我想這個部分他也一直都非常努力的對於我們衛福部相關的意見他們也都在調整那我覺得我們所知是113年2月送件的那113年2月送件到現在一年多啊那中間補件過幾次啊開過幾次啊你跟他講他越慢我們中華民國就損失更多的錢啊\n\n09:46.650 --> 10:15.980\n因為第一個煙酒公司做這個焦熱煙它可以賺錢第二個合法的管道真的符合了之後這些非法的自然就會減少很多那我們的煙稅煙捐都可以都收得到這對社會有很多的好處那再加上它是職責所在煙酒公司董事長職責所在再半年不過我會請它下台這樣好不好他已經非常努力在做了是\n\n10:16.886 --> 10:19.316\n非常濃烈跟社會大眾講什麼人一定不會過啊\n\n10:21.238 --> 10:49.938\n你是講一句我非常努力有衛福部來說明說明請說明一下跟委員報告Angel公司在113年2月左右送件那中間經過了審查會以後推了5次的件那最後一次是在今年的4月底退還給財政部在他被退了5次件5次的理由都不一樣嗎還是每一次都找不同的理由你不能夠一次把理由跟他講清楚叫他一次補嗎\n\n10:50.879 --> 11:10.368\n我們都很明確的告訴他需要準備哪一些文件聽到沒有很明確告訴他所以如果再補不來再通不過這個研究公司的董事長真的沒有什麼好做的啦坐在那個地方讓中華民國每天在損失稅跟捐然後損失你研究公司該賺的錢我講的有沒有道理\n\n11:13.857 --> 11:27.229\n回去想想看那你問我希望你們國民健康署這個審查的過程喔細節給人家公佈對社會招公信可以嗎我們選來以後該公佈的一定會公佈而且一定會讓社會明瞭\n\n11:28.200 --> 11:48.781\n什麼理由要補什麼件也讓人家知道嘛專家都會知道你要求的補件有沒有道理不是啊我說對下派大眾說明我們立法委員不知道啊不然你把各公司的補件的理由通通算入份報告到我們的辦公室來啊算到財政委員會來啊讓我們知道你這個補件到底有沒有道理啊\n\n11:50.779 --> 12:13.156\n好不好主席我要求他們這個官民監督署審查的過程中要求補正的資料跟開會的次數補正的內容送到財政委員會來給每一位委員一份報告我們會依政府資訊公開法相關的資訊送給財政委員會對啦你就送給本委員會啦好不好可以公開的可以送的我們都一定會送\n\n12:14.176 --> 12:26.323\n所以有一些不能公開不能送的你那些什麼地方什麼原因不能公開不能送你要住民喔讓我們能夠了解喔不然我們還不知道你審查為什麼可以審查九計咧從法律通過到現在九計啊這不是三計不是四計啊\n\n12:35.010 --> 12:52.118\n我們這個非常的注重所以我們一直瞭解到他整個說非常注重所以非常嚴苛所以都通不過所以大概我們依法來盡量來公告相關的資訊部長不要只站在自己的本位啦我為什麼會先問財政部長國家每天在損失錢啊好謝謝來接下來我們請賴昭偉來\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.17,"text":"莊部長委員好部長現在這個菸的稅跟捐的比例是怎麼樣待會就跟委員報告那當初這個菸奶防治法是112年3月修正的時候你們有經過試算嗎"},{"start":30.471,"end":57.934,"text":"這個部分他們有各的等一下沒關係請署長幫忙回答不好意思委員可不可以麻煩是是是燕捐跟冤稅的比例以及112年3月煙害防治法修正的時候你們有沒有估算過這個每一年收到捐燕捐跟冤稅的這個金額是我現在手上"},{"start":61.758,"end":89.712,"text":"煙捐我們以113年度煙捐是264.21億這個不是負稅嘛那煙稅的部分呢煙稅是155.88億所以大概捐是稅的一倍嗯 差不多大多100那如果是這個樣子的話這幾年的陶漏加熱煙的部分漏掉了多少稅"},{"start":90.871,"end":102.107,"text":"漏掉了多少捐因為加熱菸現在是還沒有經過衛福部許可所以我們沒有辦法因為這幾年沒有通過使得捐跟稅各少了多少嘛你們的估算"},{"start":104.022,"end":129.765,"text":"包括委員 因為這個蠻難估算因為根據衛福委的說法其實它這個是有替代效果簡單講 它如果沒有加熱菸可抽它會抽其他的菸所以 我跟你說啦市面上都在抽加熱菸立法委員你去抓 院會旁邊兩黨 三黨全部都在吸加熱菸啦我親眼所見 我在這邊作證包括民進黨 國民黨跟民眾黨"},{"start":131.929,"end":154.646,"text":"抽菸的立法委員裡面大多數都是吸加熱菸啦所以我就是要問你說你們當初有沒有做稅市的評估嘛因為你如果有評估的時候你就會去知道說這個你們原來估計大概是多少後來收到多少相減就是可以評估大概漏掉多少"},{"start":156.174,"end":184.699,"text":"跟委員報告因為煙稀食量的減少有的人是會認為是因為煙稅跟煙捐多課了所以它影響了消費所以我們因為現在沒辦法去獨立說煙變少是什麼原因這是我們困難的地方但是我們可以看到是說現在對加熱煙的部分我們也是在等如果它許可的我們這個部分一定會去課徵這樣好 那請回座請衛福部的邱部長"},{"start":187.486,"end":187.71,"text":"來 邱部長"},{"start":194.538,"end":223.061,"text":"總部長請回座部長112年3月12號 陰害防治法施行那你當時也是在衛環委員會所以我們透過這個東西是很不容易但是你們後面加了一個要健康風險評估 這我們當然也贊成可是健康風險評估 請問什麼時候開始送件到現在將近兩年半了"},{"start":224.002,"end":240.119,"text":"超過九個季了到現在還沒有任何一家通過啊 健康風險評估沒有通過的原因是因為評估得很嚴格等於是實質上雖然立法院通過了但是你們這個評估委員會再把關然後再限縮還是"},{"start":242.361,"end":259.823,"text":"沒有人要送件 還是送件的這些廠商都是阿力不打 包括研究公司都亂七八糟 九個月通不過到底是什麼原因 可不可以告訴我們好 謝謝委員我想我們在NHK日報裡面就是有審查的一個健康風險評估審查辦法"},{"start":261.685,"end":276.697,"text":"那其實有七家申請六家什麼時候開始申請這個時程等一下請吳署長跟報告一下那我們一定是因為這涉及人民權利跟公眾健康所以我們依照審查辦法循著審查的程序組成審查會"},{"start":278.238,"end":287.92,"text":"並持科學實證專業及保護公眾健康最高目標,其實是很謹慎一程序在辦理那實際上的詳細的比較細的狀況,過程請吳司長跟委員報告跟委員報告,第一家送成的是在當年112年的6月底"},{"start":301.687,"end":324.622,"text":"那到現在兩年了都審不過那因為審查的過程中有時候因為委員的要求看到業者送出來的資料有一些不完整或缺漏那會請業者再重新送件那每一屆業者他再重新補正資料的時候那各家都不一樣你能不能公布那個審查的流程的那些細節啊我現在要問的問題是什麼意思你越慢通過"},{"start":326.209,"end":351.179,"text":"漏掉更多的稅跟捐啦這兩年多來加熱菸因為你們審查結果都一直遲遲不通過使得國庫應該收到的稅以及應該收到的這個菸捐啊到現在都收不到你們現在用抓私菸用罰款其實跟稅跟捐的比例啊還是不成比例你知道嗎每一年國家因為這樣漏掉多少錢啊那"},{"start":353.091,"end":378.486,"text":"這個審查是這樣子啦我要把它定成無比嚴苛那我立法院當初包括部長在的衛黃委員會包括我們本院的院會為什麼要通過加熱菸經過健康風險評估之後就可以審查就可以通過那你等於是用健康風險評估把這個東西掐死了嘛如果你審查的東西是用這樣的態度那我要問普建"},{"start":379.71,"end":386.974,"text":"你們因為這個社會齁大家對這個責任爭議不休你知道嗎甚至有人認為說這個是煙現在的捲煙業者在中間做梗讓加熱煙不能夠合法上市讓捲煙可以繼續佔有它的市場外面各種揣測陰謀論一大堆啊"},{"start":406.383,"end":423.942,"text":"我是覺得這個有賴衛福部你要把你們審查的經過細節還有欠缺什麼東西公佈而不是讓人家還有人用政治陰謀論說因為上層反對所以掛一個審查在那邊事實上就是不給你過"},{"start":425.885,"end":444.099,"text":"也有這樣子的政治陰謀論也有從經濟角度說因為捲菸的這個業者希望不要通過所以去施力那不通過他就能夠更長久的佔有市場你知道嗎中華民國政府所擁有的菸酒公司投資這個加熱菸的設備"},{"start":446.758,"end":473.44,"text":"早就都投資進去了錢都花了等著在那個合可之後能夠製造販賣你把合法的管道用這樣的方式縮減的話那就會助長非法嘛再來第二個問題是現在已經在吸加熱菸的人那麼多立法委員你去抓嘛你每天都宴會外面去尋就好啦我跟你講一抓一大把"},{"start":474.813,"end":503.337,"text":"然後在立法院眼看著這麼多的同仁在違法我是不抽菸的啦看著這麼多同仁在違法然後我們那個審查就是九計啦沒個進度你看第一家兩年啦審一個健康風險評估要兩年那七家申請 七家都不過到現在都不過那個 請財政部再幫忙說明一下菸酒公司送多久啦"},{"start":508.542,"end":535.975,"text":"菸酒公司送件大概已經有超過一年了應該有超過一年以上了超過一年以上到底多久啊實際的時間因為他們你可不可以同意我我跟你講我現在跟你同意你們審查官民監控署要照程序來然後叫你補件你們的菸酒公司補件審查數據是這樣子我問一個問題再過半年不夠菸酒公司董事長下台要不要"},{"start":539.025,"end":559.827,"text":"健康風險評估上限一年多審不完 做不出來啊是因為普見什麼這些資料不齊備那一天九公司鮮有疏失嘛我也沒有很嚴苛 你回去跟他提案講再過半年審不過 他辭職要不要 要不要立這個軍令狀"},{"start":561.483,"end":578.354,"text":"我想這個部分他也一直都非常努力的對於我們衛福部相關的意見他們也都在調整那我覺得我們所知是113年2月送件的那113年2月送件到現在一年多啊那中間補件過幾次啊 開過幾次啊你跟他講 他越慢我們中華民國就損失更多的錢啊"},{"start":586.65,"end":615.98,"text":"因為第一個 煙酒公司做這個焦熱煙它可以賺錢第二個 合法的管道真的符合了之後這些非法的自然就會減少很多那我們的煙稅 煙捐都可以 都收得到這對社會有很多的好處那再加上它是職責所在煙酒公司董事長職責所在再半年不過 我會請它下台這樣好不好他已經非常努力在做了 是"},{"start":616.886,"end":619.316,"text":"非常濃烈跟社會大眾講什麼人一定不會過啊"},{"start":621.238,"end":649.938,"text":"你是講一句我非常努力有衛福部來說明說明 請說明一下跟委員報告 Angel公司在113年2月左右送件那中間經過了審查會以後推了5次的件那最後一次是在今年的4月底退還給財政部在他被退了5次件5次的理由都不一樣嗎還是每一次都找不同的理由你不能夠一次把理由跟他講清楚叫他一次補嗎"},{"start":650.879,"end":670.368,"text":"我們都很明確的告訴他需要準備哪一些文件聽到沒有 很明確告訴他所以如果再補不來 再通不過這個研究公司的董事長真的沒有什麼好做的啦坐在那個地方讓中華民國每天在損失稅跟捐然後損失你研究公司該賺的錢我講的有沒有道理"},{"start":673.857,"end":687.229,"text":"回去想想看那你問我希望你們國民健康署這個審查的過程喔細節給人家公佈對社會招公信可以嗎我們選來以後該公佈的一定會公佈而且一定會讓社會明瞭"},{"start":688.2,"end":708.781,"text":"什麼理由 要補什麼件 也讓人家知道嘛專家都會知道你要求的補件有沒有道理不是啊 我說對下派大眾說明我們立法委員不知道啊不然你把各公司的補件的理由通通算入份報告到我們的辦公室來啊算到財政委員會來啊讓我們知道你這個補件到底有沒有道理啊"},{"start":710.779,"end":733.156,"text":"好不好主席我要求他們這個官民監督署審查的過程中要求補正的資料跟開會的次數補正的內容送到財政委員會來給每一位委員一份報告我們會依政府資訊公開法相關的資訊送給財政委員會對啦你就送給本委員會啦好不好可以公開的可以送的我們都一定會送"},{"start":734.176,"end":746.323,"text":"所以有一些不能公開不能送的你那些什麼地方什麼原因不能公開不能送你要住民喔讓我們能夠了解喔不然我們還不知道你審查為什麼可以審查九計咧從法律通過到現在九計啊這不是三計不是四計啊"},{"start":755.01,"end":772.118,"text":"我們這個非常的注重所以我們一直瞭解到他整個說非常注重所以非常嚴苛所以都通不過所以大概我們依法來盡量來公告相關的資訊部長不要只站在自己的本位啦我為什麼會先問財政部長國家每天在損失錢啊好 謝謝來接下來我們請賴昭偉來"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":111,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時27分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，現在菸的稅跟捐的比例是怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於菸稅和菸捐的比例，我請同仁查一下，待會再跟委員報告。"],["吳委員秉叡：當初菸害防制法112年3月修正的時候，你們有經過試算嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，他們有……等一下……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，請署長幫忙回答。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是。"],["宋署長秀玲：不好意思，委員可不可以麻煩……"],["莊部長翠雲：就是菸捐跟菸稅的比例。"],["吳委員秉叡：菸捐跟菸稅的比例，以及112年3月菸害防制法修正的時候，你們有沒有估算過每一年收到菸捐跟菸稅的金額？"],["宋署長秀玲：是，我現在手上資料，113年度菸捐是264.21億，這個不是賦稅，菸稅的部分是155.88億。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以大概捐是稅的一倍？"],["宋署長秀玲：差不多，大概多100億。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果是這樣的話，這幾年加熱菸的部分，漏掉了多少稅、漏掉了多少捐？"],["宋署長秀玲：因為加熱菸現在還沒有經過衛福部許可，所以我們沒有辦法……"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道，所以我才問你，因為這幾年沒有通過許可，依據你們的估算，捐跟稅各少了多少？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，這個蠻難估算的，因為根據衛福部的說法，其實這是有替代效果，簡單講，如果沒有加熱菸可抽，他會抽其他的菸，所以……"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你說，市面上很多人都在抽加熱菸，立法委員你去抓，院會議場旁邊，兩黨、三黨全部都在吸加熱菸，這是我親眼所見，我在這邊作證，包括民進黨、國民黨跟民眾黨，在抽菸的立法委員裡面大多數都是吸加熱菸，所以我就問你，你們當初有沒有做稅式評估？如果你們有評估，就會知道這部分你們原來估計大概是多少，後來收到多少，相減就可以評估出大概漏掉多少。"],["宋署長秀玲：跟委員報告，因為菸吸食量的減少，有人是認為菸稅跟菸捐多課了，影響了消費，因為現在沒有辦法獨立判定菸變少是什麼原因，這是我們困難的地方，但是對於加熱菸的部分，現在我們也是在等，如果許可了，我們一定會去課徵。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，請回座，請衛福部邱部長。"],["主席（林委員德福代）：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，112年3月22號菸害防制法修正施行時，當時你也是衛環委員會委員……"],["邱部長泰源：是，是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們通過這個法很不容易，但是你們後面加了一個要健康風險評估，當然我們也贊成，可是健康風險評估請問什麼時候開始送件？到現在將近兩年半了，超過9個季，還沒有任何一家通過，而健康風險評估沒有通過的原因，是因為評估得很嚴格，實質上雖然立法院通過法案，但你們的評估委員會在把關、在限縮？還是沒有人送件？還是送件的這些廠商都是「阿里不達」、亂七八糟，包括菸酒公司，9個季都通不過？到底是什麼原因，可不可以告訴我們？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員，菸害防制法裡面就有健康風險評估審查辦法，其實是有7家申請，6家……"],["吳委員秉叡：什麼時候開始申請？"],["邱部長泰源：時程部分等一下請吳署長跟委員報告，因為這涉及人民權益跟公眾健康，所以我們是依照審查辦法，循著審查程序組成審查會，秉持科學實證、專業及保護公眾健康之最高目標，謹慎的依程序在辦理，詳細的過程我請吳署長跟委員報告。"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，第一家送審是在當年112年的6月底。"],["吳委員秉叡：到現在兩年了都審不過？"],["吳署長昭軍：因為審查過程中，有時候會因為委員看到業者送出來的資料有一些不完整或缺漏，會要求業者再重新送件，而每一家業者重新補正資料時，各家都不一樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：你能不能公布審查的流程細節？我為什麼問這個問題？因為越慢通過，就會漏掉更多的稅跟捐，兩年多來，加熱菸因為你們的審查一直遲遲不通過，使得國庫應該收到的稅及應該收到的菸捐，到現在都收不到，雖然你們現在又抓私菸又罰款，但其實跟菸稅、菸捐的收入還是不成比例，你知道每一年國家因為這樣漏掉多少錢嗎？","審查是這樣子啦！如果把它訂得無比嚴苛，那麼當初立法院，包括部長在衛環委員會、包括本院的院會，為什麼要通過加熱菸經過健康風險評估之後就可以審查通過的規定？你等於是用健康風險評估把這個東西掐死了嘛！如果你們審查是用這樣的態度，你知道現在社會上對於這個責任是爭議不休嗎？有人認為是捲菸業者在中間作梗，讓加熱菸不能夠合法上市，這樣捲菸就可以繼續占有市場；外面各種揣測、陰謀論一大堆，我是覺得這部分有賴衛福部公布審查的相關經過及細節還有欠缺什麼東西等等，而不是讓人家……甚至還有人用政治陰謀論來說，是因為上層反對，所以掛一個審查在那邊，事實上就是不給過；也有人從經濟角度說，認為是捲菸業者為了私利希望不要通過，這樣他就可以更長久的占有市場。你知道嗎？中華民國政府所擁有的菸酒公司早就投資加熱菸設備了，錢都花了，等著在核可之後能夠製造、販賣，結果你把合法的管道用這樣的方式縮減，那就是助長非法。","再來，第二個問題，關於現在已經在吸加熱菸的人，有那麼多立法委員你去抓嘛！你每天院會時就到外面巡就好了，我跟你講，一抓就一大把，我是不抽菸的，但在立法院眼看著這麼多同仁違法，然後你們的審查卻是9季都沒有進度，你看第一家送件的到現在兩年了，審一個健康風險評估要兩年，7家申請7家到現在都不過，請財政部再幫忙說明一下，菸酒公司送件送多久了？"],["莊部長翠雲：菸酒公司送件大概已經有超過一年了，應該有超過一年以上。"],["吳委員秉叡：超過一年以上，到底是多久啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：實際的時間，因為他們……"],["吳委員秉叡：你可不可以同意我……"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，我現在請你同意，審查時國民健康署都說要照程序來，然後叫你們菸酒公司補件、審查的速度是這樣，如果再過半年還不通過，菸酒公司董事長下臺，要不要？健康風險評估送件一年多審不完、做不出來，如果是因為補件的這些資料不齊備，菸酒公司顯有疏失，那我也沒有很嚴苛，請你回去跟湯期安講，再過半年審不過，他辭職，要不要？要不要立這個軍令狀？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，他也一直都非常努力，對於衛福部相關意見他們也都有在調整，據我所知，是113年2月送件的。"],["吳委員秉叡：113年2月送件，到現在也一年多了，中間補件過幾次？委員會開過幾次會？你跟他講，他越慢，我們中華民國就損失更多的錢，因為第一個，菸酒公司做加熱菸可以賺錢；第二個，合法的管道符合了之後，一些非法的自然就會減少很多，那麼菸稅、菸捐就都可以收得到，對社會也有很多好處，再加上這是菸酒公司董事長的職責所在，再半年不過，我會請他下臺，這樣好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：他已經非常努力在做了。"],["吳委員秉叡：非常努力要跟社會大眾講什麼一定不會過啊！你只講了一句「我非常努力」……"],["莊部長翠雲：這要由衛福部來說明。"],["邱部長泰源：來，請說明一下流程跟……"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，菸酒公司在113年2月左右送件，中間經過審查會以後退了5次的件，最後一次是在今年4月底，退還給財政部再……"],["吳委員秉叡：被退了5次件，5次的理由都不一樣嗎？還是每一次都找不同的理由？你不能夠一次把理由跟他講清楚，叫他一次補嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們都很明確地告訴他需要準備哪些文件。"],["吳委員秉叡：聽到沒有？有很明確告訴他，所以如果再補不來、再通不過，這個菸酒公司的董事長真的沒有什麼好做的了。坐在那個地方讓中華民國每天在損失稅跟捐，然後損失你菸酒公司該賺的錢，我講的有沒有道理？請回去想想看。我希望你們國民健康署對於審查的過程，要把細節給人家公布，對社會以昭公信，可以嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們審核以後，該公布的一定會公布，而且一定會讓社會明瞭。"],["吳委員秉叡：什麼理由、要補什麼件也讓人家知道嘛！讓專家知道你要求的補件有沒有道理嘛！"],["吳署長昭軍：要求的理由都會跟業者說明清楚。"],["吳委員秉叡：不是啦！我是說對社會大眾說明，我們立法委員不知道啊！不然你把各公司補件的理由統統送一份報告到我們辦公室來啊！送到財政委員會來啊！讓我們知道你這個補件到底有沒有道理啊！好不好？","主席，我要求他們國民健康署要把在審查的過程中要求補件的資料跟開會的次數、補件的內容送到財政委員會來，給每一位委員一份報告。"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會依政府資訊公開法把相關的資訊送給委員。"],["主席：對，你就送給本委員會，好不好？"],["吳署長昭軍：可以公開的、可以送的，我們都一定會送。"],["主席：好啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：所以是有一些不能公開、不能送的？那些什麼地方、什麼原因不能公開、不能送的，你要註明讓我們能夠瞭解，不然我們不知道你審查為什麼會審查到9季？從法律通過到現在都9季了，還不是3季、不是4季啊！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實我們這個是非常注重，所以我們一直瞭解到他整個……"],["吳委員秉叡：非常注意所以就非常嚴苛，也通不過？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會依法儘量公告相關的資訊。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，不要只站在自己的本位。"],["邱部長泰源：一定。"],["吳委員秉叡：我為什麼會先問財政部長？國家每天在損失錢啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請賴召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}}