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\"start\": 391.014, \"end\": 391.854, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 391.854, \"end\": 391.914, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 391.914, \"end\": 392.015, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 392.015, \"end\": 392.075, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 392.075, \"end\": 392.195, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 392.195, \"end\": 392.375, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 392.375, \"end\": 392.455, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 392.455, \"end\": 392.475, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,868 --> 00:00:33,790\n來我請次長麻煩次長委員好次長我們今天在討論這個法案之前在內政委員會有討論大家對要訂基本法或權益保障法就有很大的分歧我相信這個次長也知道次長我請問一下對新住民我們要不要照顧要\n\n2\n00:00:34,605 --> 00:01:02,425\n要嘛我也認為要啊但有很多的新住民他也不願意一輩子人家稱呼他新住民吧對應該不要標籤化不要標籤化對啊我覺得內政部啊可以對我們新住民這些做一個民調看有多少人是希望永遠被稱呼新住民或是他希望人家以後就跟他講你是中華國\n\n3\n00:01:04,195 --> 00:01:26,221\n民國的國民你就是台灣人我覺得你們可以去做一些這個民調讓社會大眾知道我覺得很多人跟我講說他不想永遠都被叫新住民啊而且對他的下一代好像也覺得不勝公平啊對不對所以社會上有不同的聲音而且次長\n\n4\n00:01:28,888 --> 00:01:52,881\n如果新住民拿到台灣中華民國的身份證他到底是不是中華民國的國民包委當然是拿到身份證拿到身份證之後那一刻他的身份是不是就轉變了他就是國人他的身份是不是轉變了我要\n\n5\n00:01:53,760 --> 00:02:16,702\n市長你要說這一句他的身份是不是就是轉變為國人他的身份已經轉變了是的拿到身份證一定是中華民國的國民對嘛所以我們要保障我們要照顧新住民確實是要但也不能用一個什麼叫做新住民的基本法把他的身份框一輩子\n\n6\n00:02:17,864 --> 00:02:41,901\n把他身份框一輩子好像覺得說對他特別照顧但其實也有某種相對一個反面的感覺他是不同的人他永遠沒有辦法融入台灣這個社會永遠沒有辦法真正成為一個台灣人會不會有這種情況啊市長\n\n7\n00:02:43,190 --> 00:03:09,633\n其實我當然會希望新住民基本法去施行的結果是第一個是要讓他成為我國國民之後融入台灣社會這才是我們的目的那對於他的其他的業務如何融入在文化教育或者是就業給予一些協助我想這才是應該新住民基本法的最主要目的融入之後然後成為我國的國民當然就是我國的國民就依照我們國民的相關規定沒有還有一個很重要的觀點\n\n8\n00:03:11,141 --> 00:03:39,406\n我們的原住民族基本法原住民族他是在台灣這塊土地上他有特殊的文化他有特殊的傳統他們的風俗而且他是比我們都還找到台灣這塊土地的人所以他有他的特殊性他有他的文化歷史幾千年來的你一個移民到台灣來的人他應該是最想要融入台灣吧\n\n9\n00:03:40,683 --> 00:03:59,916\n是不是應該是對啊那應該是我們用法律把他框住了框住他不能變為真正的台灣人我覺得這個好像是有點說不過去我們要保障是他在到台灣的時候還沒有拿到\n\n10\n00:04:00,857 --> 00:04:25,302\n身份證的時候這一段的期間我們要去輔導他去保護他有一些這一點應該是一個短暫的時刻而不是永遠我覺得舉例來講美國算是一個很大的移民社會吧美國有這些法律嗎雖然沒社會但是我相信都是一個文化不同的世界移民到美國我跟你講\n\n11\n00:04:26,584 --> 00:04:54,726\n你要成為美國公民的時候不是要宣誓你現在開始這一刻就是美國公民然後你要盡很多的義務什麼的這個就很簡單啊美國是一個最大的移民社會啊那我們要讓任何人來台灣我覺得最重要的就是要讓他認同台灣而不是把他框住你要把保護他要什麼是一段的過程而且今天的修法\n\n12\n00:04:56,487 --> 00:05:11,193\n還有說國家考試要保障這個新住民我不知道次長你認為妥善不妥善雖然這不是你的業務我不知道次長你的看法\n\n13\n00:05:12,994 --> 00:05:38,386\n謝謝委員那我想我們國家的規定其實有行政院有立法院有考試院等等相關的院那各有各的職長跟權責啦那我相信國家考試任用這是考試院的權責所以我們內政部其實就算我們是三級機關未來這個成立這個新住民發展署其實也應該不能逾越這個考試的權責是這樣子不過重點是如果他可以參加國家考試\n\n14\n00:05:39,755 --> 00:05:50,405\n他要不要有台灣的身份證他是不是中華民國的國民重點是在這裡啊我覺得要統一啦因為只要是國民應該享有權利義務都是平均的\n\n15\n00:05:50,991 --> 00:06:08,980\n對啊他已經拿到身份證了他才能去參加國家考試啊對不對我們是要保障他在拿到身份證這之前我們要好好的保障他我覺得台灣啊雖然也是個移民社會但台灣的新住民問題沒有那麼複雜我們不要把它搞複雜在國外\n\n16\n00:06:11,221 --> 00:06:32,475\n還有難民的問題台灣目前是沒有的我們就跑好的把新住民該給的照顧把它做好不要複雜化這樣子我覺得把它複雜化新住民也不是他的福利啦不知道部長你的看法次長你的看法謝謝委員我想委員剛剛講的部分其實我個人十分認同好謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7868\t33790\t來 我請次長麻煩次長委員好次長我們今天在討論這個法案之前在內政委員會有討論大家對要訂基本法或權益保障法就有很大的分歧我相信這個次長也知道次長我請問一下對新住民我們要不要照顧要\n34605\t62425\t要嘛 我也認為要啊但有很多的新住民他也不願意一輩子人家稱呼他新住民吧對 應該不要標籤化不要標籤化對啊 我覺得內政部啊可以對我們新住民這些做一個民調看有多少人是希望永遠被稱呼新住民或是他希望人家以後就跟他講你是中華國\n64195\t86221\t民國的國民你就是台灣人我覺得你們可以去做一些這個民調讓社會大眾知道我覺得很多人跟我講說他不想永遠都被叫新住民啊而且對他的下一代好像也覺得不勝公平啊對不對所以社會上有不同的聲音而且次長\n88888\t112881\t如果新住民拿到台灣中華民國的身份證他到底是不是中華民國的國民包委當然是拿到身份證拿到身份證之後那一刻他的身份是不是就轉變了他就是國人他的身份是不是轉變了我要\n113760\t136702\t市長你要說這一句他的身份是不是就是轉變為國人他的身份已經轉變了是的 拿到身份證一定是中華民國的國民對嘛所以我們要保障我們要照顧新住民確實是要但也不能用一個什麼叫做新住民的基本法把他的身份框一輩子\n137864\t161901\t把他身份框一輩子好像覺得說對他特別照顧但其實也有某種相對一個反面的感覺他是不同的人他永遠沒有辦法融入台灣這個社會永遠沒有辦法真正成為一個台灣人會不會有這種情況啊 市長\n163190\t189633\t其實我當然會希望新住民基本法去施行的結果是第一個是要讓他成為我國國民之後融入台灣社會這才是我們的目的那對於他的其他的業務如何融入在文化教育或者是就業給予一些協助我想這才是應該新住民基本法的最主要目的融入之後然後成為我國的國民當然就是我國的國民就依照我們國民的相關規定沒有還有一個很重要的觀點\n191141\t219406\t我們的原住民族基本法原住民族他是在台灣這塊土地上他有特殊的文化他有特殊的傳統他們的風俗而且他是比我們都還找到台灣這塊土地的人所以他有他的特殊性他有他的文化歷史幾千年來的你一個移民到台灣來的人他應該是最想要融入台灣吧\n220683\t239916\t是不是應該是對啊那應該是我們用法律把他框住了框住他不能變為真正的台灣人我覺得這個好像是有點說不過去我們要保障是他在到台灣的時候還沒有拿到\n240857\t265302\t身份證的時候這一段的期間我們要去輔導他去保護他有一些這一點應該是一個短暫的時刻而不是永遠我覺得舉例來講美國算是一個很大的移民社會吧美國有這些法律嗎雖然沒社會但是我相信都是一個文化不同的世界移民到美國我跟你講\n266584\t294726\t你要成為美國公民的時候不是要宣誓你現在開始這一刻就是美國公民然後你要盡很多的義務什麼的這個就很簡單啊美國是一個最大的移民社會啊那我們要讓任何人來台灣我覺得最重要的就是要讓他認同台灣而不是把他框住你要把保護他要什麼是一段的過程而且今天的修法\n296487\t311193\t還有說國家考試要保障這個新住民我不知道次長你認為妥善不妥善雖然這不是你的業務我不知道次長你的看法\n312994\t338386\t謝謝委員那我想我們國家的規定其實有行政院有立法院有考試院等等相關的院那各有各的職長跟權責啦那我相信國家考試任用這是考試院的權責所以我們內政部其實就算我們是三級機關未來這個成立這個新住民發展署其實也應該不能逾越這個考試的權責是這樣子不過重點是如果他可以參加國家考試\n339755\t350405\t他要不要有台灣的身份證他是不是中華民國的國民重點是在這裡啊我覺得要統一啦因為只要是國民應該享有權利義務都是平均的\n350991\t368980\t對啊他已經拿到身份證了他才能去參加國家考試啊對不對我們是要保障他在拿到身份證這之前我們要好好的保障他我覺得台灣啊雖然也是個移民社會但台灣的新住民問題沒有那麼複雜我們不要把它搞複雜在國外\n371221\t392475\t還有難民的問題台灣目前是沒有的我們就跑好的把新住民該給的照顧把它做好不要複雜化這樣子我覺得把它複雜化新住民也不是他的福利啦不知道部長你的看法 次長你的看法謝謝委員 我想委員剛剛講的部分其實我個人十分認同好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請\n","txt":"來 我請次長麻煩次長委員好次長我們今天在討論這個法案之前在內政委員會有討論大家對要訂基本法或權益保障法就有很大的分歧我相信這個次長也知道次長我請問一下對新住民我們要不要照顧要\n要嘛 我也認為要啊但有很多的新住民他也不願意一輩子人家稱呼他新住民吧對 應該不要標籤化不要標籤化對啊 我覺得內政部啊可以對我們新住民這些做一個民調看有多少人是希望永遠被稱呼新住民或是他希望人家以後就跟他講你是中華國\n民國的國民你就是台灣人我覺得你們可以去做一些這個民調讓社會大眾知道我覺得很多人跟我講說他不想永遠都被叫新住民啊而且對他的下一代好像也覺得不勝公平啊對不對所以社會上有不同的聲音而且次長\n如果新住民拿到台灣中華民國的身份證他到底是不是中華民國的國民包委當然是拿到身份證拿到身份證之後那一刻他的身份是不是就轉變了他就是國人他的身份是不是轉變了我要\n市長你要說這一句他的身份是不是就是轉變為國人他的身份已經轉變了是的 拿到身份證一定是中華民國的國民對嘛所以我們要保障我們要照顧新住民確實是要但也不能用一個什麼叫做新住民的基本法把他的身份框一輩子\n把他身份框一輩子好像覺得說對他特別照顧但其實也有某種相對一個反面的感覺他是不同的人他永遠沒有辦法融入台灣這個社會永遠沒有辦法真正成為一個台灣人會不會有這種情況啊 市長\n其實我當然會希望新住民基本法去施行的結果是第一個是要讓他成為我國國民之後融入台灣社會這才是我們的目的那對於他的其他的業務如何融入在文化教育或者是就業給予一些協助我想這才是應該新住民基本法的最主要目的融入之後然後成為我國的國民當然就是我國的國民就依照我們國民的相關規定沒有還有一個很重要的觀點\n我們的原住民族基本法原住民族他是在台灣這塊土地上他有特殊的文化他有特殊的傳統他們的風俗而且他是比我們都還找到台灣這塊土地的人所以他有他的特殊性他有他的文化歷史幾千年來的你一個移民到台灣來的人他應該是最想要融入台灣吧\n是不是應該是對啊那應該是我們用法律把他框住了框住他不能變為真正的台灣人我覺得這個好像是有點說不過去我們要保障是他在到台灣的時候還沒有拿到\n身份證的時候這一段的期間我們要去輔導他去保護他有一些這一點應該是一個短暫的時刻而不是永遠我覺得舉例來講美國算是一個很大的移民社會吧美國有這些法律嗎雖然沒社會但是我相信都是一個文化不同的世界移民到美國我跟你講\n你要成為美國公民的時候不是要宣誓你現在開始這一刻就是美國公民然後你要盡很多的義務什麼的這個就很簡單啊美國是一個最大的移民社會啊那我們要讓任何人來台灣我覺得最重要的就是要讓他認同台灣而不是把他框住你要把保護他要什麼是一段的過程而且今天的修法\n還有說國家考試要保障這個新住民我不知道次長你認為妥善不妥善雖然這不是你的業務我不知道次長你的看法\n謝謝委員那我想我們國家的規定其實有行政院有立法院有考試院等等相關的院那各有各的職長跟權責啦那我相信國家考試任用這是考試院的權責所以我們內政部其實就算我們是三級機關未來這個成立這個新住民發展署其實也應該不能逾越這個考試的權責是這樣子不過重點是如果他可以參加國家考試\n他要不要有台灣的身份證他是不是中華民國的國民重點是在這裡啊我覺得要統一啦因為只要是國民應該享有權利義務都是平均的\n對啊他已經拿到身份證了他才能去參加國家考試啊對不對我們是要保障他在拿到身份證這之前我們要好好的保障他我覺得台灣啊雖然也是個移民社會但台灣的新住民問題沒有那麼複雜我們不要把它搞複雜在國外\n還有難民的問題台灣目前是沒有的我們就跑好的把新住民該給的照顧把它做好不要複雜化這樣子我覺得把它複雜化新住民也不是他的福利啦不知道部長你的看法 次長你的看法謝謝委員 我想委員剛剛講的部分其實我個人十分認同好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.868 --> 00:33.790\n來我請次長麻煩次長委員好次長我們今天在討論這個法案之前在內政委員會有討論大家對要訂基本法或權益保障法就有很大的分歧我相信這個次長也知道次長我請問一下對新住民我們要不要照顧要\n\n00:34.605 --> 01:02.425\n要嘛我也認為要啊但有很多的新住民他也不願意一輩子人家稱呼他新住民吧對應該不要標籤化不要標籤化對啊我覺得內政部啊可以對我們新住民這些做一個民調看有多少人是希望永遠被稱呼新住民或是他希望人家以後就跟他講你是中華國\n\n01:04.195 --> 01:26.221\n民國的國民你就是台灣人我覺得你們可以去做一些這個民調讓社會大眾知道我覺得很多人跟我講說他不想永遠都被叫新住民啊而且對他的下一代好像也覺得不勝公平啊對不對所以社會上有不同的聲音而且次長\n\n01:28.888 --> 01:52.881\n如果新住民拿到台灣中華民國的身份證他到底是不是中華民國的國民包委當然是拿到身份證拿到身份證之後那一刻他的身份是不是就轉變了他就是國人他的身份是不是轉變了我要\n\n01:53.760 --> 02:16.702\n市長你要說這一句他的身份是不是就是轉變為國人他的身份已經轉變了是的拿到身份證一定是中華民國的國民對嘛所以我們要保障我們要照顧新住民確實是要但也不能用一個什麼叫做新住民的基本法把他的身份框一輩子\n\n02:17.864 --> 02:41.901\n把他身份框一輩子好像覺得說對他特別照顧但其實也有某種相對一個反面的感覺他是不同的人他永遠沒有辦法融入台灣這個社會永遠沒有辦法真正成為一個台灣人會不會有這種情況啊市長\n\n02:43.190 --> 03:09.633\n其實我當然會希望新住民基本法去施行的結果是第一個是要讓他成為我國國民之後融入台灣社會這才是我們的目的那對於他的其他的業務如何融入在文化教育或者是就業給予一些協助我想這才是應該新住民基本法的最主要目的融入之後然後成為我國的國民當然就是我國的國民就依照我們國民的相關規定沒有還有一個很重要的觀點\n\n03:11.141 --> 03:39.406\n我們的原住民族基本法原住民族他是在台灣這塊土地上他有特殊的文化他有特殊的傳統他們的風俗而且他是比我們都還找到台灣這塊土地的人所以他有他的特殊性他有他的文化歷史幾千年來的你一個移民到台灣來的人他應該是最想要融入台灣吧\n\n03:40.683 --> 03:59.916\n是不是應該是對啊那應該是我們用法律把他框住了框住他不能變為真正的台灣人我覺得這個好像是有點說不過去我們要保障是他在到台灣的時候還沒有拿到\n\n04:00.857 --> 04:25.302\n身份證的時候這一段的期間我們要去輔導他去保護他有一些這一點應該是一個短暫的時刻而不是永遠我覺得舉例來講美國算是一個很大的移民社會吧美國有這些法律嗎雖然沒社會但是我相信都是一個文化不同的世界移民到美國我跟你講\n\n04:26.584 --> 04:54.726\n你要成為美國公民的時候不是要宣誓你現在開始這一刻就是美國公民然後你要盡很多的義務什麼的這個就很簡單啊美國是一個最大的移民社會啊那我們要讓任何人來台灣我覺得最重要的就是要讓他認同台灣而不是把他框住你要把保護他要什麼是一段的過程而且今天的修法\n\n04:56.487 --> 05:11.193\n還有說國家考試要保障這個新住民我不知道次長你認為妥善不妥善雖然這不是你的業務我不知道次長你的看法\n\n05:12.994 --> 05:38.386\n謝謝委員那我想我們國家的規定其實有行政院有立法院有考試院等等相關的院那各有各的職長跟權責啦那我相信國家考試任用這是考試院的權責所以我們內政部其實就算我們是三級機關未來這個成立這個新住民發展署其實也應該不能逾越這個考試的權責是這樣子不過重點是如果他可以參加國家考試\n\n05:39.755 --> 05:50.405\n他要不要有台灣的身份證他是不是中華民國的國民重點是在這裡啊我覺得要統一啦因為只要是國民應該享有權利義務都是平均的\n\n05:50.991 --> 06:08.980\n對啊他已經拿到身份證了他才能去參加國家考試啊對不對我們是要保障他在拿到身份證這之前我們要好好的保障他我覺得台灣啊雖然也是個移民社會但台灣的新住民問題沒有那麼複雜我們不要把它搞複雜在國外\n\n06:11.221 --> 06:32.475\n還有難民的問題台灣目前是沒有的我們就跑好的把新住民該給的照顧把它做好不要複雜化這樣子我覺得把它複雜化新住民也不是他的福利啦不知道部長你的看法次長你的看法謝謝委員我想委員剛剛講的部分其實我個人十分認同好謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.868,"end":33.79,"text":"來 我請次長麻煩次長委員好次長我們今天在討論這個法案之前在內政委員會有討論大家對要訂基本法或權益保障法就有很大的分歧我相信這個次長也知道次長我請問一下對新住民我們要不要照顧要"},{"start":34.605,"end":62.425,"text":"要嘛 我也認為要啊但有很多的新住民他也不願意一輩子人家稱呼他新住民吧對 應該不要標籤化不要標籤化對啊 我覺得內政部啊可以對我們新住民這些做一個民調看有多少人是希望永遠被稱呼新住民或是他希望人家以後就跟他講你是中華國"},{"start":64.195,"end":86.221,"text":"民國的國民你就是台灣人我覺得你們可以去做一些這個民調讓社會大眾知道我覺得很多人跟我講說他不想永遠都被叫新住民啊而且對他的下一代好像也覺得不勝公平啊對不對所以社會上有不同的聲音而且次長"},{"start":88.888,"end":112.881,"text":"如果新住民拿到台灣中華民國的身份證他到底是不是中華民國的國民包委當然是拿到身份證拿到身份證之後那一刻他的身份是不是就轉變了他就是國人他的身份是不是轉變了我要"},{"start":113.76,"end":136.702,"text":"市長你要說這一句他的身份是不是就是轉變為國人他的身份已經轉變了是的 拿到身份證一定是中華民國的國民對嘛所以我們要保障我們要照顧新住民確實是要但也不能用一個什麼叫做新住民的基本法把他的身份框一輩子"},{"start":137.864,"end":161.901,"text":"把他身份框一輩子好像覺得說對他特別照顧但其實也有某種相對一個反面的感覺他是不同的人他永遠沒有辦法融入台灣這個社會永遠沒有辦法真正成為一個台灣人會不會有這種情況啊 市長"},{"start":163.19,"end":189.633,"text":"其實我當然會希望新住民基本法去施行的結果是第一個是要讓他成為我國國民之後融入台灣社會這才是我們的目的那對於他的其他的業務如何融入在文化教育或者是就業給予一些協助我想這才是應該新住民基本法的最主要目的融入之後然後成為我國的國民當然就是我國的國民就依照我們國民的相關規定沒有還有一個很重要的觀點"},{"start":191.141,"end":219.406,"text":"我們的原住民族基本法原住民族他是在台灣這塊土地上他有特殊的文化他有特殊的傳統他們的風俗而且他是比我們都還找到台灣這塊土地的人所以他有他的特殊性他有他的文化歷史幾千年來的你一個移民到台灣來的人他應該是最想要融入台灣吧"},{"start":220.683,"end":239.916,"text":"是不是應該是對啊那應該是我們用法律把他框住了框住他不能變為真正的台灣人我覺得這個好像是有點說不過去我們要保障是他在到台灣的時候還沒有拿到"},{"start":240.857,"end":265.302,"text":"身份證的時候這一段的期間我們要去輔導他去保護他有一些這一點應該是一個短暫的時刻而不是永遠我覺得舉例來講美國算是一個很大的移民社會吧美國有這些法律嗎雖然沒社會但是我相信都是一個文化不同的世界移民到美國我跟你講"},{"start":266.584,"end":294.726,"text":"你要成為美國公民的時候不是要宣誓你現在開始這一刻就是美國公民然後你要盡很多的義務什麼的這個就很簡單啊美國是一個最大的移民社會啊那我們要讓任何人來台灣我覺得最重要的就是要讓他認同台灣而不是把他框住你要把保護他要什麼是一段的過程而且今天的修法"},{"start":296.487,"end":311.193,"text":"還有說國家考試要保障這個新住民我不知道次長你認為妥善不妥善雖然這不是你的業務我不知道次長你的看法"},{"start":312.994,"end":338.386,"text":"謝謝委員那我想我們國家的規定其實有行政院有立法院有考試院等等相關的院那各有各的職長跟權責啦那我相信國家考試任用這是考試院的權責所以我們內政部其實就算我們是三級機關未來這個成立這個新住民發展署其實也應該不能逾越這個考試的權責是這樣子不過重點是如果他可以參加國家考試"},{"start":339.755,"end":350.405,"text":"他要不要有台灣的身份證他是不是中華民國的國民重點是在這裡啊我覺得要統一啦因為只要是國民應該享有權利義務都是平均的"},{"start":350.991,"end":368.98,"text":"對啊他已經拿到身份證了他才能去參加國家考試啊對不對我們是要保障他在拿到身份證這之前我們要好好的保障他我覺得台灣啊雖然也是個移民社會但台灣的新住民問題沒有那麼複雜我們不要把它搞複雜在國外"},{"start":371.221,"end":392.475,"text":"還有難民的問題台灣目前是沒有的我們就跑好的把新住民該給的照顧把它做好不要複雜化這樣子我覺得把它複雜化新住民也不是他的福利啦不知道部長你的看法 次長你的看法謝謝委員 我想委員剛剛講的部分其實我個人十分認同好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時12分）我請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：次長，我們今天討論這個法案，之前在內政委員會也有討論，大家對要定基本法或權益保障法就有很大的分歧，我相信這個次長也知道。次長，我請問一下，對新住民要不要照顧？"],["吳次長堂安：要。"],["張委員宏陸：我也認為要，但是有很多新住民也不願意一輩子被人家稱呼新住民。"],["吳次長堂安：對，不要標籤化。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，我覺得內政部可以對新住民做民調，看有多少人是希望永遠被稱呼新住民，或是希望人家跟他們說你是中華民國國民、你就是臺灣人，我覺得你們可以做一些民調讓社會大眾知道。有很多人跟我說他不想永遠被叫新住民，對他的下一代好像也覺得不甚公平，對不對？"],["吳次長堂安：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以社會上有不同聲音，而且如果新住民拿到臺灣中華民國的身分證，他到底是不是中華民國的國民？"],["吳次長堂安：報告委員，當然是。"],["張委員宏陸：啊？"],["吳次長堂安：拿到身分證……"],["張委員宏陸：拿到身分證之後，那一刻他的身分是不是就轉變了？"],["吳次長堂安：他就是國人。"],["張委員宏陸：他的身分是不是轉變了？次長，你要說這一句，他的身分是不是就是轉變為國人，他的身分已經轉變了？"],["吳次長堂安：是的，拿到身分證一定是中華民國的國民。"],["張委員宏陸：對。所以我們要保障照顧新住民，確實是要，但也不能用一個什麼叫做新住民的基本法，把他的身分匡一輩子，好像覺得對他特別照顧，但其實也有某種相對反面的感覺他是不同的人，永遠沒辦法融入臺灣這個社會，永遠沒辦法真正成為一個臺灣人，會不會有這種情況，次長？"],["吳次長堂安：其實我們當然希望新住民基本法施行結果，第一個是讓他成為我國國民之後融入臺灣社會，這才是我們的目的。對於其他的業務，如何融入、在文化教育就業給予協助，這才是新住民基本法的最主要目的，融入之後成為我們國民，當然就是我們的國民，就依照我們國民相關規定。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有，還有一個很重要的觀點，我們的原住民族基本法，原住民族在這塊土地上有特殊文化、特殊傳統、風俗，而且他們是還比我們都還早到臺灣這塊土地的人，他有他的特殊性、幾千年來的文化歷史。以一個移民到臺灣來的人，他應該最想要融入臺灣，是不是？"],["吳次長堂安：應該是。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，應該是，我們又用法律把他框住了，框住他不能變成真正的臺灣人，這好像有點說不過去。我們是要保障他到臺灣還沒有拿到身分證的時候，這段期間要去輔導、保護他，應該是以一個短暫時刻，而不是永遠。舉例來講，美國算是一個很大的移民社會，美國有這些法令嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：雖然沒涉獵，但我相信都是不同文化的世界移民到美國。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，成為美國國民不是要宣誓從這一刻開始就是美國公民，要盡很多義務什麼的，這很簡單啊，美國是一個最大的移民社會，所以我們要讓任何人來臺灣，我覺得最重要的就是要讓他認同臺灣，而不是把他框住，是一段過程要保護他。而且今天的修法還有說國家考試要保障新住民，我不知道次長你認為妥善不妥善？雖然這不是你的業務，但你的看法呢？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員。我們國家的規定有行政院、立法院、考試院等等相關的院，各有各的職掌跟權責，國家考試任用這是考試院的權責，我們內政部就算未來成立新住民發展署是三級機關，應該也不能逾越考試的權責。"],["張委員宏陸：重點是如果他可以參加國家考試，他要不要有臺灣的身分證？他是不是中華民國的國民？重點在這裡。"],["吳次長堂安：我覺得要統一，只要是國民，享有的權利義務都是平均的。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，他已經拿到身分證了，才能去參加國家考試，對不對？我們是要保障他在拿到身分證之前，要好好地保障他，我覺得臺灣雖然也是移民社會，但臺灣的新住民問題沒有那麼複雜，我們不要搞複雜，國外還有難民的問題，臺灣目前是沒有的，我們就好好的把新住民該給的照顧做好，不要複雜化，這樣子複雜化對新住民也不是他的福利，不知道次長你的看法？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員，我想委員剛剛講的部分，我個人十分認同。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等21人、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(三)委員張智倫等17\n人、(四)委員葉元之等21人及(五)委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草\n案」案；二、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等21人、(三)國民黨黨\n團、(四)委員張智倫等17人、(五)委員葉元之等21人及(六)委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部\n新住民發展署組織法草案」案","agenda_id":"1146101_00002"}}}