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135.96, \"text\": \"但我們如果能夠更長的接觸因為我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋樑所以呢希望能夠再多宣傳多跟國人講這件事情我認為這是非常重要的我跟委員報告其實執行長跟我講真的他們想做很多事情那也是跨黨派所以民主基金會的預算相對國際來講我們是當然是很也是表現的很好這個國會的支持如果能夠足以增加因為現在這個玉山論壇之後有推出這個IMGO中心在台灣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 106.497, \"end\": 106.617, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 106.617, \"end\": 106.797, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 106.797, \"end\": 106.937, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 106.937, \"end\": 107.058, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 107.058, \"end\": 107.398, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 107.398, \"end\": 107.718, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 107.718, \"end\": 107.858, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 107.858, \"end\": 108.018, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"觸\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 108.018, \"end\": 108.198, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 667.397, \"end\": 667.798, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 667.798, \"end\": 668.418, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 668.418, \"end\": 669.219, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 669.219, \"end\": 669.4, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 669.4, \"end\": 669.68, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 669.68, \"end\": 670.101, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 670.101, \"end\": 670.241, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 670.241, \"end\": 670.381, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 670.381, \"end\": 671.382, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 671.382, \"end\": 671.602, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 671.602, \"end\": 672.203, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 672.203, \"end\": 672.303, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 672.303, \"end\": 672.383, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 672.383, \"end\": 672.443, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 672.443, \"end\": 672.524, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 672.524, \"end\": 672.664, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 672.664, \"end\": 672.764, \"score\": 0.631}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 672.764, \"end\": 672.884, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 672.884, \"end\": 672.904, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 672.904, \"end\": 672.924, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,834 --> 00:00:23,388\n在一開始除了預算解凍以外因為幾個跟預算有關的事項因為現在還有一項還沒有排我想先問因為在這個六月的時候民主基金會有去日本跟一橋大學有一個東海民主論壇\n\n2\n00:00:24,128 --> 00:00:48,675\n那因為這個院會進行,我們這邊蠻多不能過去的那是不是可以請部長或者說請民主基金會跟大家順便跟國人報告一下他最主要的一個目的還有他的一個結果來,請主席,委員您好,部長您好是,我們是其實六月十一號、十二號才過去那我們這一次是我們的台灣民主基金會的旗艦計畫叫做\n\n3\n00:00:50,175 --> 00:01:18,313\nADFistheAsiaDemocracyForum我們已經舉辦第十一屆了那這個最主要是在東亞地區那包括日本、韓國包括菲律賓包括新加坡還有包括印度尼西亞這幾個國家是我們steeringcommittee我們聚會最主要目的這次是討論我們怎麼樣重新適應調整民主的步伐增強我們的韌性那這些連結都是各地重要的NGO那所以這是我們基本上就是穩固\n\n4\n00:01:18,993 --> 00:01:45,837\n台灣在東亞地區既有的某種NGO的領導地位對因為我最近偶爾有看到這一個相關的報導看起來就是有一些專家然後看起來不少的NGO啦那這個跟部長常提到的總和外交應該是非常的合致那因為我現在我們跟日本的關係其實變得越來越重要我們在外交上面當然在日本上外交有一定的拓展但是因為日本的NGO有一些它也有一些官方的背景然後有一些NGO也比較低調\n\n5\n00:01:46,497 --> 00:02:15,960\n但我們如果能夠更長的接觸因為我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋樑所以呢希望能夠再多宣傳多跟國人講這件事情我認為這是非常重要的我跟委員報告其實執行長跟我講真的他們想做很多事情那也是跨黨派所以民主基金會的預算相對國際來講我們是當然是很也是表現的很好這個國會的支持如果能夠足以增加因為現在這個玉山論壇之後有推出這個IMGO中心在台灣\n\n6\n00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:29,855\n因為現在香港大家都知道這個中共的這個控制那其實在印太地區最適合發展這種國際非政府組織作為總部或是分部的是台灣尤其是川普因為他對USAID的這個把他這個就是\n\n7\n00:02:35,521 --> 00:03:04,941\n改組之後所以我們這個過渡期間今年其實跟很多NGOINGO反而有更大的合作的這個空間所以這一點我想委員本身都有在推動我是覺得在預算上面如果大家肯定民主基金會我們在明年編列預算的時候我們來佐與增加希望可以因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的一件事就是說在國際情勢的這一個變化當中尤其是不管是USA還有像NED\n\n8\n00:03:05,821 --> 00:03:33,204\n我知道他們最近可能慢慢能夠取回一定程度的預算但是也沒有到百分之百搞不好百分之五十、六十之類的這其實都應該是台灣能夠站出來的時候但偏偏我們的預算如果不夠的話我們也站不出來所以這個部分就反請部長到最後再做更好的一些規劃可以因應這不是只有中國威脅而已還包含美國內部政治的改變這個其實我們在民主基金會的因應我認為特別重要好謝謝文哲哲\n\n9\n00:03:33,624 --> 00:03:57,657\n那接下來我問一個小問題,這個就是說最近我們這個外交部的小編在這個外交部的這個粉專上面在回應的時候呢,回應的比較嗆辣一點那我先講,我沒有說什麼要回去什麼小編要懲戒啦,或者要調查,我不是這個意思我在想的一件事情就是說,其實小編的回覆有一些是有創意的\n\n10\n00:03:58,718 --> 00:04:27,584\n但是問題是創意要用在哪一個部分我覺得這可以再思量因為我覺得以外交部的立場就是說小編是近期這一個尤其是這個網路世代所生的一個產物那它本身在過往假設我們在還沒有這個小編的時代它在很多網站它其實是類似有點像總編的一個地位但我們現在小編有時候就是因為小編某種程度它代表一個人格化的政府所以它會在上面做發言所以它某種程度還是會代表外交部\n\n11\n00:04:29,065 --> 00:04:47,816\n因為這個其實它是在針對跟中國有關的議題尤其是那時候跟六四有關這當然也是現在很尷尬的地方我們雖然把很多的業務是切給陸委會但其實對於中國的打壓在外面應對的是外交部所以在這個程度上面對方他去用什麼樣的話語我們要怎麼應對他還是有一種\n\n12\n00:04:48,456 --> 00:05:16,142\n外交辭令因為外交部本身有外交辭令上的一些要求小編當然是比較生活化然後讓人民覺得比較貼近就是說我這邊寫的他是一個比較親切的一個公僕的角色啦我並沒有說這個一定是對或錯但我想知道的是因為其實小編的地位我認為應該要提升那在小編地位提升的時候呢表示他在比如說他要去回覆他要去發文他一定會有一定程度的審核SOP因為他要跟外交部其實要更緊密的對接嘛\n\n13\n00:05:16,922 --> 00:05:41,699\n那所以在這個方面現在我們這個對於小編譬如說他發文的SOP或者回文的SOP還有呢到底是誰在審核這個機制現在有沒有慢慢建立起來好我們國傳室當然有一些機制我再聽他說不過我覺得委員提這個問題非常好因為現在在社群媒體的時代你怎麼樣很及時的互動那當然要正確另外至於說有一定的\n\n14\n00:05:43,325 --> 00:06:11,440\n就是說活潑性這個空間我並沒有去責怪任何的人但是用的語言因為涉及到有一些是網軍來攻擊那小編也是人他有用某種方式去回應我是覺得其實社會可以從另外一個角度但是因為是外交部我們有一些語詞在用的時候我們稍微要有一個理解\n\n15\n00:06:12,340 --> 00:06:36,370\n就是這個畢竟是你一個用人物的方式來呈現外交部所以這個我都沒有去責備我們的小人物我覺得一個人願意在第一線去捍衛我們外交部或國家面對到那些網軍其實很多甚至AI機器人大量的假訊息在攻擊的時候但是我就覺得大家也不用應該講說\n\n16\n00:06:40,578 --> 00:06:54,798\n跟對方一般見識啦我覺得用一些有時候更更有智慧的方式或更比較就是不是去嗆\n\n17\n00:06:56,482 --> 00:07:20,160\n跟對方一樣的方式陷入對方的邏輯因為這個其實說真的當時有成為新聞的報導但某種程度又呈現了一次就是說中國對我們的打壓所以當然在呈現的目的上面我們其實可以讓別人知道說這個事情的嚴重性因為其實現在尤其是外交部或者說我們總統的臉書這個是外國的網軍很喜歡來洗版所以那個感受當然也不是很好\n\n18\n00:07:20,740 --> 00:07:44,156\n所以我可以理解他當時的這個心境,以及回文,其實某種程度都凸顯了這個問題那我覺得,所以我不會說這是一個對錯的問題,但是就是我們以後,因為小編的責任會越來越重大在現今的這個社會,所以他的那個審核的機制啦,SOP啦等等之類的然後每一次如果出現了什麼事情,誰要來說明什麼等等之類的這個機制如果建立好,我覺得可能比個案還要來得更重要啦\n\n19\n00:07:45,437 --> 00:08:13,084\n還有檢視一下這個機制對希望能夠趕快建立好趕快建立那接下來就是這個問題其實我之前有稍微提過但是我覺得也有必要在這個時間點我覺得我也可以再問一次就是說因為經濟學人這個他有統計說這個全球有這一個70個國家去認同這個認同其實不是說單純一個中國的問題而是就是中國到底有沒有權利用任何手段達成\n\n20\n00:08:14,944 --> 00:08:38,377\n統一這個錯誤的字眼其實就是侵略就是用任何的手段去達成侵略這一件事情中國一直嘗試去說服別的國家我知道外交部要應對這件事情不是那麼容易中國要去說服別的國家這個我們很難去達成但是我們總是要有一些反制的方案這是第一個第二個就是這一件事情因為外媒報導但其實台灣內部對這一個的報導其實是比較少的\n\n21\n00:08:38,777 --> 00:09:00,855\n但我總覺得這其實應該要讓國人知道因為陸委會有時候做很多比如說就是風險的控管啊什麼等等之類的我覺得陸委會在這一邊的能量不一定有辦法還要再關注這一事情但因為這個事情涉及是中國跟別的國家的外交事務我覺得外交部如果能夠把這件事情更清楚的讓國人知道應該會是一件重要的事\n\n22\n00:09:01,348 --> 00:09:29,070\n我想這句話好好跟委員說這個事情非常重要因為中共在造成新常態它跟很多國家的共同聲明它就是最近有兩個現象一個就是把聯合國所謂27582決議要放進去變成所謂一中原則的依據另外一個就是所謂認同或支持中國可以採取任何手段來所謂統一台灣\n\n23\n00:09:30,131 --> 00:09:47,246\n或是說推動國家的統一這個是在對武力犯台建立它在法理上的基礎所以我們當跟很多國家講他才意識到所以我們也曾經阻止了最近這半年來中國企圖壓迫一些國家\n\n24\n00:09:48,770 --> 00:10:09,321\n就是寫上了這幾句話就是說認同中國可以採用一切手段統一台灣他們才意識到因為有時候有些人可能在應付或是不知覺那我們也透過這個東西去操作比如說像今年的應該說G7在日本的某種程度就是提醒因為以前都會講一個中國的政策\n\n25\n00:10:12,796 --> 00:10:35,162\n可是一個中國政策跟一個中國原則很難分別那老共就是不斷地用這個方法去扭曲所以當這個時候其實G7已經我們看到就沒有再去提所謂的一中政策我們也是用這個跟很多國家的他們都覺得有道理因為一中政策會被一中原則給去把它扭曲因為其實各個國家的一中政策也不太一樣\n\n26\n00:10:36,082 --> 00:10:57,936\n所以這個也是另外一個我們的反制那也有成功的例子那至於說70幾個認同他這個樣子其實還有100多個國家我們要做好跟他們的溝通避免再有更多重複這樣的一個情形那就像說法律戰在為他的軍事犯台建立所謂的這個不管是法理基礎或是未來\n\n27\n00:10:59,367 --> 00:11:12,924\n這個混合戰的操作所以這一點確實委員有提出來這是我們現在在外交領域上可以說每天都在面對的一個新常態那我們也有所因應感謝部長不好意思超過一點時間謝謝主席謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6834\t23388\t在一開始除了預算解凍以外 因為幾個跟預算有關的事項因為現在還有一項還沒有排我想先問 因為在這個六月的時候民主基金會有去日本跟一橋大學有一個東海民主論壇\n24128\t48675\t那因為這個院會進行,我們這邊蠻多不能過去的那是不是可以請部長或者說請民主基金會跟大家順便跟國人報告一下他最主要的一個目的還有他的一個結果來,請主席,委員您好,部長您好是,我們是其實六月十一號、十二號才過去那我們這一次是我們的台灣民主基金會的旗艦計畫叫做\n50175\t78313\tADF is the Asia Democracy Forum我們已經舉辦第十一屆了那這個最主要是在東亞地區那包括日本、韓國包括菲律賓包括新加坡還有包括印度尼西亞這幾個國家是我們steering committee我們聚會最主要目的這次是討論我們怎麼樣重新適應調整民主的步伐增強我們的韌性那這些連結都是各地重要的NGO那所以這是我們基本上就是穩固\n78993\t105837\t台灣在東亞地區既有的某種NGO的領導地位對 因為我最近偶爾有看到這一個相關的報導看起來就是有一些專家然後看起來不少的NGO啦那這個跟部長常提到的總和外交應該是非常的合致那因為我現在我們跟日本的關係其實變得越來越重要我們在外交上面當然在日本上外交有一定的拓展但是因為日本的NGO有一些它也有一些官方的背景然後有一些NGO也比較低調\n106497\t135960\t但我們如果能夠更長的接觸因為我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋樑所以呢希望能夠再多宣傳多跟國人講這件事情我認為這是非常重要的我跟委員報告其實執行長跟我講真的他們想做很多事情那也是跨黨派所以民主基金會的預算相對國際來講我們是當然是很也是表現的很好這個國會的支持如果能夠足以增加因為現在這個玉山論壇之後有推出這個IMGO中心在台灣\n136620\t149855\t因為現在香港大家都知道這個中共的這個控制那其實在印太地區最適合發展這種國際非政府組織作為總部或是分部的是台灣尤其是川普因為他對USAID的這個把他這個就是\n155521\t184941\t改組之後所以我們這個過渡期間今年其實跟很多NGO INGO反而有更大的合作的這個空間所以這一點我想委員本身都有在推動我是覺得在預算上面如果大家肯定民主基金會我們在明年編列預算的時候我們來佐與增加希望可以因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的一件事就是說在國際情勢的這一個變化當中尤其是不管是USA還有像NED\n185821\t213204\t我知道他們最近可能慢慢能夠取回一定程度的預算但是也沒有到百分之百搞不好百分之五十、六十之類的這其實都應該是台灣能夠站出來的時候但偏偏我們的預算如果不夠的話我們也站不出來所以這個部分就反請部長到最後再做更好的一些規劃可以因應這不是只有中國威脅而已還包含美國內部政治的改變這個其實我們在民主基金會的因應我認為特別重要好 謝謝文哲哲\n213624\t237657\t那接下來我問一個小問題,這個就是說最近我們這個外交部的小編在這個外交部的這個粉專上面在回應的時候呢,回應的比較嗆辣一點那我先講,我沒有說什麼要回去什麼小編要懲戒啦,或者要調查,我不是這個意思我在想的一件事情就是說,其實小編的回覆有一些是有創意的\n238718\t267584\t但是問題是創意要用在哪一個部分我覺得這可以再思量因為我覺得以外交部的立場就是說小編是近期這一個尤其是這個網路世代所生的一個產物那它本身在過往假設我們在還沒有這個小編的時代它在很多網站它其實是類似有點像總編的一個地位但我們現在小編有時候就是因為小編某種程度它代表一個人格化的政府所以它會在上面做發言所以它某種程度還是會代表外交部\n269065\t287816\t因為這個其實它是在針對跟中國有關的議題尤其是那時候跟六四有關這當然也是現在很尷尬的地方我們雖然把很多的業務是切給陸委會但其實對於中國的打壓在外面應對的是外交部所以在這個程度上面對方他去用什麼樣的話語我們要怎麼應對他還是有一種\n288456\t316142\t外交辭令因為外交部本身有外交辭令上的一些要求小編當然是比較生活化然後讓人民覺得比較貼近就是說我這邊寫的他是一個比較親切的一個公僕的角色啦我並沒有說這個一定是對或錯但我想知道的是因為其實小編的地位我認為應該要提升那在小編地位提升的時候呢表示他在比如說他要去回覆他要去發文他一定會有一定程度的審核SOP因為他要跟外交部其實要更緊密的對接嘛\n316922\t341699\t那所以在這個方面現在我們這個對於小編譬如說他發文的SOP或者回文的SOP還有呢到底是誰在審核這個機制現在有沒有慢慢建立起來好我們國傳室當然有一些機制我再聽他說不過我覺得委員提這個問題非常好因為現在在社群媒體的時代你怎麼樣很及時的互動那當然要正確另外至於說有一定的\n343325\t371440\t就是說活潑性這個空間我並沒有去責怪任何的人但是用的語言因為涉及到有一些是網軍來攻擊那小編也是人他有用某種方式去回應我是覺得其實社會可以從另外一個角度但是因為是外交部我們有一些語詞在用的時候我們稍微要有一個理解\n372340\t396370\t就是這個畢竟是你一個用人物的方式來呈現外交部所以這個我都沒有去責備我們的小人物我覺得一個人願意在第一線去捍衛我們外交部或國家面對到那些網軍其實很多甚至AI機器人大量的假訊息在攻擊的時候但是我就覺得大家也不用應該講說\n400578\t414798\t跟對方一般見識啦我覺得用一些有時候更更有智慧的方式或更比較就是不是去嗆\n416482\t440160\t跟對方一樣的方式陷入對方的邏輯因為這個其實說真的當時有成為新聞的報導但某種程度又呈現了一次就是說中國對我們的打壓所以當然在呈現的目的上面我們其實可以讓別人知道說這個事情的嚴重性因為其實現在尤其是外交部或者說我們總統的臉書這個是外國的網軍很喜歡來洗版所以那個感受當然也不是很好\n440740\t464156\t所以我可以理解他當時的這個心境,以及回文,其實某種程度都凸顯了這個問題那我覺得,所以我不會說這是一個對錯的問題,但是就是我們以後,因為小編的責任會越來越重大在現今的這個社會,所以他的那個審核的機制啦,SOP啦等等之類的然後每一次如果出現了什麼事情,誰要來說明什麼等等之類的這個機制如果建立好,我覺得可能比個案還要來得更重要啦\n465437\t493084\t還有檢視一下這個機制對希望能夠趕快建立好 趕快建立那接下來就是這個問題其實我之前有稍微提過但是我覺得也有必要在這個時間點我覺得我也可以再問一次就是說因為經濟學人這個他有統計說這個全球有這一個70個國家去認同這個認同其實不是說單純一個中國的問題而是就是中國到底有沒有權利用任何手段達成\n494944\t518377\t統一這個錯誤的字眼其實就是侵略就是用任何的手段去達成侵略這一件事情中國一直嘗試去說服別的國家我知道外交部要應對這件事情不是那麼容易中國要去說服別的國家這個我們很難去達成但是我們總是要有一些反制的方案這是第一個第二個就是這一件事情因為外媒報導但其實台灣內部對這一個的報導其實是比較少的\n518777\t540855\t但我總覺得這其實應該要讓國人知道因為陸委會有時候做很多比如說就是風險的控管啊什麼等等之類的我覺得陸委會在這一邊的能量不一定有辦法還要再關注這一事情但因為這個事情涉及是中國跟別的國家的外交事務我覺得外交部如果能夠把這件事情更清楚的讓國人知道應該會是一件重要的事\n541348\t569070\t我想這句話好好跟委員說這個事情非常重要因為中共在造成新常態它跟很多國家的共同聲明它就是最近有兩個現象一個就是把聯合國所謂27582決議要放進去變成所謂一中原則的依據另外一個就是所謂認同或支持中國可以採取任何手段來所謂統一台灣\n570131\t587246\t或是說推動國家的統一這個是在對武力犯台建立它在法理上的基礎所以我們當跟很多國家講他才意識到所以我們也曾經阻止了最近這半年來中國企圖壓迫一些國家\n588770\t609321\t就是寫上了這幾句話就是說認同中國可以採用一切手段統一台灣他們才意識到因為有時候有些人可能在應付或是不知覺那我們也透過這個東西去操作比如說像今年的應該說G7在日本的某種程度就是提醒因為以前都會講一個中國的政策\n612796\t635162\t可是一個中國政策跟一個中國原則很難分別那老共就是不斷地用這個方法去扭曲所以當這個時候其實G7已經我們看到就沒有再去提所謂的一中政策我們也是用這個跟很多國家的他們都覺得有道理因為一中政策會被一中原則給去把它扭曲因為其實各個國家的一中政策也不太一樣\n636082\t657936\t所以這個也是另外一個我們的反制那也有成功的例子那至於說70幾個認同他這個樣子其實還有100多個國家我們要做好跟他們的溝通避免再有更多重複這樣的一個情形那就像說法律戰在為他的軍事犯台建立所謂的這個不管是法理基礎或是未來\n659367\t672924\t這個混合戰的操作所以這一點確實委員有提出來這是我們現在在外交領域上可以說每天都在面對的一個新常態那我們也有所因應感謝部長不好意思超過一點時間謝謝主席 謝謝部長\n","txt":"在一開始除了預算解凍以外 因為幾個跟預算有關的事項因為現在還有一項還沒有排我想先問 因為在這個六月的時候民主基金會有去日本跟一橋大學有一個東海民主論壇\n那因為這個院會進行,我們這邊蠻多不能過去的那是不是可以請部長或者說請民主基金會跟大家順便跟國人報告一下他最主要的一個目的還有他的一個結果來,請主席,委員您好,部長您好是,我們是其實六月十一號、十二號才過去那我們這一次是我們的台灣民主基金會的旗艦計畫叫做\nADF is the Asia Democracy Forum我們已經舉辦第十一屆了那這個最主要是在東亞地區那包括日本、韓國包括菲律賓包括新加坡還有包括印度尼西亞這幾個國家是我們steering committee我們聚會最主要目的這次是討論我們怎麼樣重新適應調整民主的步伐增強我們的韌性那這些連結都是各地重要的NGO那所以這是我們基本上就是穩固\n台灣在東亞地區既有的某種NGO的領導地位對 因為我最近偶爾有看到這一個相關的報導看起來就是有一些專家然後看起來不少的NGO啦那這個跟部長常提到的總和外交應該是非常的合致那因為我現在我們跟日本的關係其實變得越來越重要我們在外交上面當然在日本上外交有一定的拓展但是因為日本的NGO有一些它也有一些官方的背景然後有一些NGO也比較低調\n但我們如果能夠更長的接觸因為我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋樑所以呢希望能夠再多宣傳多跟國人講這件事情我認為這是非常重要的我跟委員報告其實執行長跟我講真的他們想做很多事情那也是跨黨派所以民主基金會的預算相對國際來講我們是當然是很也是表現的很好這個國會的支持如果能夠足以增加因為現在這個玉山論壇之後有推出這個IMGO中心在台灣\n因為現在香港大家都知道這個中共的這個控制那其實在印太地區最適合發展這種國際非政府組織作為總部或是分部的是台灣尤其是川普因為他對USAID的這個把他這個就是\n改組之後所以我們這個過渡期間今年其實跟很多NGO INGO反而有更大的合作的這個空間所以這一點我想委員本身都有在推動我是覺得在預算上面如果大家肯定民主基金會我們在明年編列預算的時候我們來佐與增加希望可以因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的一件事就是說在國際情勢的這一個變化當中尤其是不管是USA還有像NED\n我知道他們最近可能慢慢能夠取回一定程度的預算但是也沒有到百分之百搞不好百分之五十、六十之類的這其實都應該是台灣能夠站出來的時候但偏偏我們的預算如果不夠的話我們也站不出來所以這個部分就反請部長到最後再做更好的一些規劃可以因應這不是只有中國威脅而已還包含美國內部政治的改變這個其實我們在民主基金會的因應我認為特別重要好 謝謝文哲哲\n那接下來我問一個小問題,這個就是說最近我們這個外交部的小編在這個外交部的這個粉專上面在回應的時候呢,回應的比較嗆辣一點那我先講,我沒有說什麼要回去什麼小編要懲戒啦,或者要調查,我不是這個意思我在想的一件事情就是說,其實小編的回覆有一些是有創意的\n但是問題是創意要用在哪一個部分我覺得這可以再思量因為我覺得以外交部的立場就是說小編是近期這一個尤其是這個網路世代所生的一個產物那它本身在過往假設我們在還沒有這個小編的時代它在很多網站它其實是類似有點像總編的一個地位但我們現在小編有時候就是因為小編某種程度它代表一個人格化的政府所以它會在上面做發言所以它某種程度還是會代表外交部\n因為這個其實它是在針對跟中國有關的議題尤其是那時候跟六四有關這當然也是現在很尷尬的地方我們雖然把很多的業務是切給陸委會但其實對於中國的打壓在外面應對的是外交部所以在這個程度上面對方他去用什麼樣的話語我們要怎麼應對他還是有一種\n外交辭令因為外交部本身有外交辭令上的一些要求小編當然是比較生活化然後讓人民覺得比較貼近就是說我這邊寫的他是一個比較親切的一個公僕的角色啦我並沒有說這個一定是對或錯但我想知道的是因為其實小編的地位我認為應該要提升那在小編地位提升的時候呢表示他在比如說他要去回覆他要去發文他一定會有一定程度的審核SOP因為他要跟外交部其實要更緊密的對接嘛\n那所以在這個方面現在我們這個對於小編譬如說他發文的SOP或者回文的SOP還有呢到底是誰在審核這個機制現在有沒有慢慢建立起來好我們國傳室當然有一些機制我再聽他說不過我覺得委員提這個問題非常好因為現在在社群媒體的時代你怎麼樣很及時的互動那當然要正確另外至於說有一定的\n就是說活潑性這個空間我並沒有去責怪任何的人但是用的語言因為涉及到有一些是網軍來攻擊那小編也是人他有用某種方式去回應我是覺得其實社會可以從另外一個角度但是因為是外交部我們有一些語詞在用的時候我們稍微要有一個理解\n就是這個畢竟是你一個用人物的方式來呈現外交部所以這個我都沒有去責備我們的小人物我覺得一個人願意在第一線去捍衛我們外交部或國家面對到那些網軍其實很多甚至AI機器人大量的假訊息在攻擊的時候但是我就覺得大家也不用應該講說\n跟對方一般見識啦我覺得用一些有時候更更有智慧的方式或更比較就是不是去嗆\n跟對方一樣的方式陷入對方的邏輯因為這個其實說真的當時有成為新聞的報導但某種程度又呈現了一次就是說中國對我們的打壓所以當然在呈現的目的上面我們其實可以讓別人知道說這個事情的嚴重性因為其實現在尤其是外交部或者說我們總統的臉書這個是外國的網軍很喜歡來洗版所以那個感受當然也不是很好\n所以我可以理解他當時的這個心境,以及回文,其實某種程度都凸顯了這個問題那我覺得,所以我不會說這是一個對錯的問題,但是就是我們以後,因為小編的責任會越來越重大在現今的這個社會,所以他的那個審核的機制啦,SOP啦等等之類的然後每一次如果出現了什麼事情,誰要來說明什麼等等之類的這個機制如果建立好,我覺得可能比個案還要來得更重要啦\n還有檢視一下這個機制對希望能夠趕快建立好 趕快建立那接下來就是這個問題其實我之前有稍微提過但是我覺得也有必要在這個時間點我覺得我也可以再問一次就是說因為經濟學人這個他有統計說這個全球有這一個70個國家去認同這個認同其實不是說單純一個中國的問題而是就是中國到底有沒有權利用任何手段達成\n統一這個錯誤的字眼其實就是侵略就是用任何的手段去達成侵略這一件事情中國一直嘗試去說服別的國家我知道外交部要應對這件事情不是那麼容易中國要去說服別的國家這個我們很難去達成但是我們總是要有一些反制的方案這是第一個第二個就是這一件事情因為外媒報導但其實台灣內部對這一個的報導其實是比較少的\n但我總覺得這其實應該要讓國人知道因為陸委會有時候做很多比如說就是風險的控管啊什麼等等之類的我覺得陸委會在這一邊的能量不一定有辦法還要再關注這一事情但因為這個事情涉及是中國跟別的國家的外交事務我覺得外交部如果能夠把這件事情更清楚的讓國人知道應該會是一件重要的事\n我想這句話好好跟委員說這個事情非常重要因為中共在造成新常態它跟很多國家的共同聲明它就是最近有兩個現象一個就是把聯合國所謂27582決議要放進去變成所謂一中原則的依據另外一個就是所謂認同或支持中國可以採取任何手段來所謂統一台灣\n或是說推動國家的統一這個是在對武力犯台建立它在法理上的基礎所以我們當跟很多國家講他才意識到所以我們也曾經阻止了最近這半年來中國企圖壓迫一些國家\n就是寫上了這幾句話就是說認同中國可以採用一切手段統一台灣他們才意識到因為有時候有些人可能在應付或是不知覺那我們也透過這個東西去操作比如說像今年的應該說G7在日本的某種程度就是提醒因為以前都會講一個中國的政策\n可是一個中國政策跟一個中國原則很難分別那老共就是不斷地用這個方法去扭曲所以當這個時候其實G7已經我們看到就沒有再去提所謂的一中政策我們也是用這個跟很多國家的他們都覺得有道理因為一中政策會被一中原則給去把它扭曲因為其實各個國家的一中政策也不太一樣\n所以這個也是另外一個我們的反制那也有成功的例子那至於說70幾個認同他這個樣子其實還有100多個國家我們要做好跟他們的溝通避免再有更多重複這樣的一個情形那就像說法律戰在為他的軍事犯台建立所謂的這個不管是法理基礎或是未來\n這個混合戰的操作所以這一點確實委員有提出來這是我們現在在外交領域上可以說每天都在面對的一個新常態那我們也有所因應感謝部長不好意思超過一點時間謝謝主席 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.834 --> 00:23.388\n在一開始除了預算解凍以外因為幾個跟預算有關的事項因為現在還有一項還沒有排我想先問因為在這個六月的時候民主基金會有去日本跟一橋大學有一個東海民主論壇\n\n00:24.128 --> 00:48.675\n那因為這個院會進行,我們這邊蠻多不能過去的那是不是可以請部長或者說請民主基金會跟大家順便跟國人報告一下他最主要的一個目的還有他的一個結果來,請主席,委員您好,部長您好是,我們是其實六月十一號、十二號才過去那我們這一次是我們的台灣民主基金會的旗艦計畫叫做\n\n00:50.175 --> 01:18.313\nADFistheAsiaDemocracyForum我們已經舉辦第十一屆了那這個最主要是在東亞地區那包括日本、韓國包括菲律賓包括新加坡還有包括印度尼西亞這幾個國家是我們steeringcommittee我們聚會最主要目的這次是討論我們怎麼樣重新適應調整民主的步伐增強我們的韌性那這些連結都是各地重要的NGO那所以這是我們基本上就是穩固\n\n01:18.993 --> 01:45.837\n台灣在東亞地區既有的某種NGO的領導地位對因為我最近偶爾有看到這一個相關的報導看起來就是有一些專家然後看起來不少的NGO啦那這個跟部長常提到的總和外交應該是非常的合致那因為我現在我們跟日本的關係其實變得越來越重要我們在外交上面當然在日本上外交有一定的拓展但是因為日本的NGO有一些它也有一些官方的背景然後有一些NGO也比較低調\n\n01:46.497 --> 02:15.960\n但我們如果能夠更長的接觸因為我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋樑所以呢希望能夠再多宣傳多跟國人講這件事情我認為這是非常重要的我跟委員報告其實執行長跟我講真的他們想做很多事情那也是跨黨派所以民主基金會的預算相對國際來講我們是當然是很也是表現的很好這個國會的支持如果能夠足以增加因為現在這個玉山論壇之後有推出這個IMGO中心在台灣\n\n02:16.620 --> 02:29.855\n因為現在香港大家都知道這個中共的這個控制那其實在印太地區最適合發展這種國際非政府組織作為總部或是分部的是台灣尤其是川普因為他對USAID的這個把他這個就是\n\n02:35.521 --> 03:04.941\n改組之後所以我們這個過渡期間今年其實跟很多NGOINGO反而有更大的合作的這個空間所以這一點我想委員本身都有在推動我是覺得在預算上面如果大家肯定民主基金會我們在明年編列預算的時候我們來佐與增加希望可以因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的一件事就是說在國際情勢的這一個變化當中尤其是不管是USA還有像NED\n\n03:05.821 --> 03:33.204\n我知道他們最近可能慢慢能夠取回一定程度的預算但是也沒有到百分之百搞不好百分之五十、六十之類的這其實都應該是台灣能夠站出來的時候但偏偏我們的預算如果不夠的話我們也站不出來所以這個部分就反請部長到最後再做更好的一些規劃可以因應這不是只有中國威脅而已還包含美國內部政治的改變這個其實我們在民主基金會的因應我認為特別重要好謝謝文哲哲\n\n03:33.624 --> 03:57.657\n那接下來我問一個小問題,這個就是說最近我們這個外交部的小編在這個外交部的這個粉專上面在回應的時候呢,回應的比較嗆辣一點那我先講,我沒有說什麼要回去什麼小編要懲戒啦,或者要調查,我不是這個意思我在想的一件事情就是說,其實小編的回覆有一些是有創意的\n\n03:58.718 --> 04:27.584\n但是問題是創意要用在哪一個部分我覺得這可以再思量因為我覺得以外交部的立場就是說小編是近期這一個尤其是這個網路世代所生的一個產物那它本身在過往假設我們在還沒有這個小編的時代它在很多網站它其實是類似有點像總編的一個地位但我們現在小編有時候就是因為小編某種程度它代表一個人格化的政府所以它會在上面做發言所以它某種程度還是會代表外交部\n\n04:29.065 --> 04:47.816\n因為這個其實它是在針對跟中國有關的議題尤其是那時候跟六四有關這當然也是現在很尷尬的地方我們雖然把很多的業務是切給陸委會但其實對於中國的打壓在外面應對的是外交部所以在這個程度上面對方他去用什麼樣的話語我們要怎麼應對他還是有一種\n\n04:48.456 --> 05:16.142\n外交辭令因為外交部本身有外交辭令上的一些要求小編當然是比較生活化然後讓人民覺得比較貼近就是說我這邊寫的他是一個比較親切的一個公僕的角色啦我並沒有說這個一定是對或錯但我想知道的是因為其實小編的地位我認為應該要提升那在小編地位提升的時候呢表示他在比如說他要去回覆他要去發文他一定會有一定程度的審核SOP因為他要跟外交部其實要更緊密的對接嘛\n\n05:16.922 --> 05:41.699\n那所以在這個方面現在我們這個對於小編譬如說他發文的SOP或者回文的SOP還有呢到底是誰在審核這個機制現在有沒有慢慢建立起來好我們國傳室當然有一些機制我再聽他說不過我覺得委員提這個問題非常好因為現在在社群媒體的時代你怎麼樣很及時的互動那當然要正確另外至於說有一定的\n\n05:43.325 --> 06:11.440\n就是說活潑性這個空間我並沒有去責怪任何的人但是用的語言因為涉及到有一些是網軍來攻擊那小編也是人他有用某種方式去回應我是覺得其實社會可以從另外一個角度但是因為是外交部我們有一些語詞在用的時候我們稍微要有一個理解\n\n06:12.340 --> 06:36.370\n就是這個畢竟是你一個用人物的方式來呈現外交部所以這個我都沒有去責備我們的小人物我覺得一個人願意在第一線去捍衛我們外交部或國家面對到那些網軍其實很多甚至AI機器人大量的假訊息在攻擊的時候但是我就覺得大家也不用應該講說\n\n06:40.578 --> 06:54.798\n跟對方一般見識啦我覺得用一些有時候更更有智慧的方式或更比較就是不是去嗆\n\n06:56.482 --> 07:20.160\n跟對方一樣的方式陷入對方的邏輯因為這個其實說真的當時有成為新聞的報導但某種程度又呈現了一次就是說中國對我們的打壓所以當然在呈現的目的上面我們其實可以讓別人知道說這個事情的嚴重性因為其實現在尤其是外交部或者說我們總統的臉書這個是外國的網軍很喜歡來洗版所以那個感受當然也不是很好\n\n07:20.740 --> 07:44.156\n所以我可以理解他當時的這個心境,以及回文,其實某種程度都凸顯了這個問題那我覺得,所以我不會說這是一個對錯的問題,但是就是我們以後,因為小編的責任會越來越重大在現今的這個社會,所以他的那個審核的機制啦,SOP啦等等之類的然後每一次如果出現了什麼事情,誰要來說明什麼等等之類的這個機制如果建立好,我覺得可能比個案還要來得更重要啦\n\n07:45.437 --> 08:13.084\n還有檢視一下這個機制對希望能夠趕快建立好趕快建立那接下來就是這個問題其實我之前有稍微提過但是我覺得也有必要在這個時間點我覺得我也可以再問一次就是說因為經濟學人這個他有統計說這個全球有這一個70個國家去認同這個認同其實不是說單純一個中國的問題而是就是中國到底有沒有權利用任何手段達成\n\n08:14.944 --> 08:38.377\n統一這個錯誤的字眼其實就是侵略就是用任何的手段去達成侵略這一件事情中國一直嘗試去說服別的國家我知道外交部要應對這件事情不是那麼容易中國要去說服別的國家這個我們很難去達成但是我們總是要有一些反制的方案這是第一個第二個就是這一件事情因為外媒報導但其實台灣內部對這一個的報導其實是比較少的\n\n08:38.777 --> 09:00.855\n但我總覺得這其實應該要讓國人知道因為陸委會有時候做很多比如說就是風險的控管啊什麼等等之類的我覺得陸委會在這一邊的能量不一定有辦法還要再關注這一事情但因為這個事情涉及是中國跟別的國家的外交事務我覺得外交部如果能夠把這件事情更清楚的讓國人知道應該會是一件重要的事\n\n09:01.348 --> 09:29.070\n我想這句話好好跟委員說這個事情非常重要因為中共在造成新常態它跟很多國家的共同聲明它就是最近有兩個現象一個就是把聯合國所謂27582決議要放進去變成所謂一中原則的依據另外一個就是所謂認同或支持中國可以採取任何手段來所謂統一台灣\n\n09:30.131 --> 09:47.246\n或是說推動國家的統一這個是在對武力犯台建立它在法理上的基礎所以我們當跟很多國家講他才意識到所以我們也曾經阻止了最近這半年來中國企圖壓迫一些國家\n\n09:48.770 --> 10:09.321\n就是寫上了這幾句話就是說認同中國可以採用一切手段統一台灣他們才意識到因為有時候有些人可能在應付或是不知覺那我們也透過這個東西去操作比如說像今年的應該說G7在日本的某種程度就是提醒因為以前都會講一個中國的政策\n\n10:12.796 --> 10:35.162\n可是一個中國政策跟一個中國原則很難分別那老共就是不斷地用這個方法去扭曲所以當這個時候其實G7已經我們看到就沒有再去提所謂的一中政策我們也是用這個跟很多國家的他們都覺得有道理因為一中政策會被一中原則給去把它扭曲因為其實各個國家的一中政策也不太一樣\n\n10:36.082 --> 10:57.936\n所以這個也是另外一個我們的反制那也有成功的例子那至於說70幾個認同他這個樣子其實還有100多個國家我們要做好跟他們的溝通避免再有更多重複這樣的一個情形那就像說法律戰在為他的軍事犯台建立所謂的這個不管是法理基礎或是未來\n\n10:59.367 --> 11:12.924\n這個混合戰的操作所以這一點確實委員有提出來這是我們現在在外交領域上可以說每天都在面對的一個新常態那我們也有所因應感謝部長不好意思超過一點時間謝謝主席謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.834,"end":23.388,"text":"在一開始除了預算解凍以外 因為幾個跟預算有關的事項因為現在還有一項還沒有排我想先問 因為在這個六月的時候民主基金會有去日本跟一橋大學有一個東海民主論壇"},{"start":24.128,"end":48.675,"text":"那因為這個院會進行,我們這邊蠻多不能過去的那是不是可以請部長或者說請民主基金會跟大家順便跟國人報告一下他最主要的一個目的還有他的一個結果來,請主席,委員您好,部長您好是,我們是其實六月十一號、十二號才過去那我們這一次是我們的台灣民主基金會的旗艦計畫叫做"},{"start":50.175,"end":78.313,"text":"ADF is the Asia Democracy Forum我們已經舉辦第十一屆了那這個最主要是在東亞地區那包括日本、韓國包括菲律賓包括新加坡還有包括印度尼西亞這幾個國家是我們steering committee我們聚會最主要目的這次是討論我們怎麼樣重新適應調整民主的步伐增強我們的韌性那這些連結都是各地重要的NGO那所以這是我們基本上就是穩固"},{"start":78.993,"end":105.837,"text":"台灣在東亞地區既有的某種NGO的領導地位對 因為我最近偶爾有看到這一個相關的報導看起來就是有一些專家然後看起來不少的NGO啦那這個跟部長常提到的總和外交應該是非常的合致那因為我現在我們跟日本的關係其實變得越來越重要我們在外交上面當然在日本上外交有一定的拓展但是因為日本的NGO有一些它也有一些官方的背景然後有一些NGO也比較低調"},{"start":106.497,"end":135.96,"text":"但我們如果能夠更長的接觸因為我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋樑所以呢希望能夠再多宣傳多跟國人講這件事情我認為這是非常重要的我跟委員報告其實執行長跟我講真的他們想做很多事情那也是跨黨派所以民主基金會的預算相對國際來講我們是當然是很也是表現的很好這個國會的支持如果能夠足以增加因為現在這個玉山論壇之後有推出這個IMGO中心在台灣"},{"start":136.62,"end":149.855,"text":"因為現在香港大家都知道這個中共的這個控制那其實在印太地區最適合發展這種國際非政府組織作為總部或是分部的是台灣尤其是川普因為他對USAID的這個把他這個就是"},{"start":155.521,"end":184.941,"text":"改組之後所以我們這個過渡期間今年其實跟很多NGO INGO反而有更大的合作的這個空間所以這一點我想委員本身都有在推動我是覺得在預算上面如果大家肯定民主基金會我們在明年編列預算的時候我們來佐與增加希望可以因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的一件事就是說在國際情勢的這一個變化當中尤其是不管是USA還有像NED"},{"start":185.821,"end":213.204,"text":"我知道他們最近可能慢慢能夠取回一定程度的預算但是也沒有到百分之百搞不好百分之五十、六十之類的這其實都應該是台灣能夠站出來的時候但偏偏我們的預算如果不夠的話我們也站不出來所以這個部分就反請部長到最後再做更好的一些規劃可以因應這不是只有中國威脅而已還包含美國內部政治的改變這個其實我們在民主基金會的因應我認為特別重要好 謝謝文哲哲"},{"start":213.624,"end":237.657,"text":"那接下來我問一個小問題,這個就是說最近我們這個外交部的小編在這個外交部的這個粉專上面在回應的時候呢,回應的比較嗆辣一點那我先講,我沒有說什麼要回去什麼小編要懲戒啦,或者要調查,我不是這個意思我在想的一件事情就是說,其實小編的回覆有一些是有創意的"},{"start":238.718,"end":267.584,"text":"但是問題是創意要用在哪一個部分我覺得這可以再思量因為我覺得以外交部的立場就是說小編是近期這一個尤其是這個網路世代所生的一個產物那它本身在過往假設我們在還沒有這個小編的時代它在很多網站它其實是類似有點像總編的一個地位但我們現在小編有時候就是因為小編某種程度它代表一個人格化的政府所以它會在上面做發言所以它某種程度還是會代表外交部"},{"start":269.065,"end":287.816,"text":"因為這個其實它是在針對跟中國有關的議題尤其是那時候跟六四有關這當然也是現在很尷尬的地方我們雖然把很多的業務是切給陸委會但其實對於中國的打壓在外面應對的是外交部所以在這個程度上面對方他去用什麼樣的話語我們要怎麼應對他還是有一種"},{"start":288.456,"end":316.142,"text":"外交辭令因為外交部本身有外交辭令上的一些要求小編當然是比較生活化然後讓人民覺得比較貼近就是說我這邊寫的他是一個比較親切的一個公僕的角色啦我並沒有說這個一定是對或錯但我想知道的是因為其實小編的地位我認為應該要提升那在小編地位提升的時候呢表示他在比如說他要去回覆他要去發文他一定會有一定程度的審核SOP因為他要跟外交部其實要更緊密的對接嘛"},{"start":316.922,"end":341.699,"text":"那所以在這個方面現在我們這個對於小編譬如說他發文的SOP或者回文的SOP還有呢到底是誰在審核這個機制現在有沒有慢慢建立起來好我們國傳室當然有一些機制我再聽他說不過我覺得委員提這個問題非常好因為現在在社群媒體的時代你怎麼樣很及時的互動那當然要正確另外至於說有一定的"},{"start":343.325,"end":371.44,"text":"就是說活潑性這個空間我並沒有去責怪任何的人但是用的語言因為涉及到有一些是網軍來攻擊那小編也是人他有用某種方式去回應我是覺得其實社會可以從另外一個角度但是因為是外交部我們有一些語詞在用的時候我們稍微要有一個理解"},{"start":372.34,"end":396.37,"text":"就是這個畢竟是你一個用人物的方式來呈現外交部所以這個我都沒有去責備我們的小人物我覺得一個人願意在第一線去捍衛我們外交部或國家面對到那些網軍其實很多甚至AI機器人大量的假訊息在攻擊的時候但是我就覺得大家也不用應該講說"},{"start":400.578,"end":414.798,"text":"跟對方一般見識啦我覺得用一些有時候更更有智慧的方式或更比較就是不是去嗆"},{"start":416.482,"end":440.16,"text":"跟對方一樣的方式陷入對方的邏輯因為這個其實說真的當時有成為新聞的報導但某種程度又呈現了一次就是說中國對我們的打壓所以當然在呈現的目的上面我們其實可以讓別人知道說這個事情的嚴重性因為其實現在尤其是外交部或者說我們總統的臉書這個是外國的網軍很喜歡來洗版所以那個感受當然也不是很好"},{"start":440.74,"end":464.156,"text":"所以我可以理解他當時的這個心境,以及回文,其實某種程度都凸顯了這個問題那我覺得,所以我不會說這是一個對錯的問題,但是就是我們以後,因為小編的責任會越來越重大在現今的這個社會,所以他的那個審核的機制啦,SOP啦等等之類的然後每一次如果出現了什麼事情,誰要來說明什麼等等之類的這個機制如果建立好,我覺得可能比個案還要來得更重要啦"},{"start":465.437,"end":493.084,"text":"還有檢視一下這個機制對希望能夠趕快建立好 趕快建立那接下來就是這個問題其實我之前有稍微提過但是我覺得也有必要在這個時間點我覺得我也可以再問一次就是說因為經濟學人這個他有統計說這個全球有這一個70個國家去認同這個認同其實不是說單純一個中國的問題而是就是中國到底有沒有權利用任何手段達成"},{"start":494.944,"end":518.377,"text":"統一這個錯誤的字眼其實就是侵略就是用任何的手段去達成侵略這一件事情中國一直嘗試去說服別的國家我知道外交部要應對這件事情不是那麼容易中國要去說服別的國家這個我們很難去達成但是我們總是要有一些反制的方案這是第一個第二個就是這一件事情因為外媒報導但其實台灣內部對這一個的報導其實是比較少的"},{"start":518.777,"end":540.855,"text":"但我總覺得這其實應該要讓國人知道因為陸委會有時候做很多比如說就是風險的控管啊什麼等等之類的我覺得陸委會在這一邊的能量不一定有辦法還要再關注這一事情但因為這個事情涉及是中國跟別的國家的外交事務我覺得外交部如果能夠把這件事情更清楚的讓國人知道應該會是一件重要的事"},{"start":541.348,"end":569.07,"text":"我想這句話好好跟委員說這個事情非常重要因為中共在造成新常態它跟很多國家的共同聲明它就是最近有兩個現象一個就是把聯合國所謂27582決議要放進去變成所謂一中原則的依據另外一個就是所謂認同或支持中國可以採取任何手段來所謂統一台灣"},{"start":570.131,"end":587.246,"text":"或是說推動國家的統一這個是在對武力犯台建立它在法理上的基礎所以我們當跟很多國家講他才意識到所以我們也曾經阻止了最近這半年來中國企圖壓迫一些國家"},{"start":588.77,"end":609.321,"text":"就是寫上了這幾句話就是說認同中國可以採用一切手段統一台灣他們才意識到因為有時候有些人可能在應付或是不知覺那我們也透過這個東西去操作比如說像今年的應該說G7在日本的某種程度就是提醒因為以前都會講一個中國的政策"},{"start":612.796,"end":635.162,"text":"可是一個中國政策跟一個中國原則很難分別那老共就是不斷地用這個方法去扭曲所以當這個時候其實G7已經我們看到就沒有再去提所謂的一中政策我們也是用這個跟很多國家的他們都覺得有道理因為一中政策會被一中原則給去把它扭曲因為其實各個國家的一中政策也不太一樣"},{"start":636.082,"end":657.936,"text":"所以這個也是另外一個我們的反制那也有成功的例子那至於說70幾個認同他這個樣子其實還有100多個國家我們要做好跟他們的溝通避免再有更多重複這樣的一個情形那就像說法律戰在為他的軍事犯台建立所謂的這個不管是法理基礎或是未來"},{"start":659.367,"end":672.924,"text":"這個混合戰的操作所以這一點確實委員有提出來這是我們現在在外交領域上可以說每天都在面對的一個新常態那我們也有所因應感謝部長不好意思超過一點時間謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":295,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時13分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：在一開始先提到，除了預算解凍以外，幾個跟預算有關的事項，現在還有一項還沒有排。我想先問，在6月的時候，民主基金會有去日本跟一橋大學進行東亞民主論壇，因為院會期間，我們這邊也蠻多人不能過去，是不是可以請部長或者請民主基金會跟大家及國人報告一下其最主要的目的和結果？"],["林部長佳龍：好，請執行長說明。"],["廖執行長達琪：主席、委員，您好。部長，您好。我們其實6月11號、12號才過去，這一次是臺灣民主基金會的旗艦計畫叫做East Asia Democracy Forum，我們已經舉辦第11屆了，最主要是在東亞地區，包括日本、韓國、菲律賓、新加坡，還有印度尼西亞，這幾個國家是我們的steering committee。我們這次會議最主要的目的是討論怎麼樣重新適應、調整民主的步伐，增強我們的韌性，這些連結的都是各地重要的NGO，我們基本上就是穩固臺灣在東亞地區既有某種NGO的領導地位。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我今天偶有看到相關的報導，看起來就是有一些專家，然後有不少的NGO，這個跟部長常提到的總合外交應該是非常的合致。現在我們跟日本的關係其實變得越來越重要，當然我們跟日本在外交上也有一定的拓展，但是因為日本的NGO有一些官方的背景，然後有一些NGO也比較低調，但我們如果能夠更常接觸，我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋梁，所以希望能夠再多宣傳，多跟國人講這件事情，我認為這是非常重要的。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，其實執行長跟我們講，他們真的想做很多事情，也是跨黨派，所以民主基金會的預算……相對國際來講，我們當然也是表現得很好，因為有國會的支持，但如果能再酌予增加……","現在玉山論壇之後，有推出INGO（國際非政府組織）中心在臺灣，因為大家都知道現在香港被中共控制，其實在印太地區最適合發展這種國際非政府組織作為總部或分部的是臺灣，尤其是因為川普對於USAID進行改組之後，在這個過渡期間，我們今年其實跟很多NGO、INGO反而有更大的合作空間，這一點委員本身都有在推動，我是覺得在預算上面，如果大家肯定民主基金會，在明年編列預算的時候希望能夠酌予增加，請大家支持。"],["沈委員伯洋：希望可以，因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的一件事，就是說在國際情勢的變化當中，尤其不管是USAID，還有像NED，我知道他們最近可能慢慢能夠取回一定程度的預算，但是也沒有到百分之百，搞不好50%、60%之類的，這其實都應該是臺灣能夠站出來的時候，但偏偏我們的預算如果不夠的話，我們也站不出來，所以這個部分就煩請部長到時候再做更好的一些規劃跟因應……"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：這不是只有中國威脅而已，還包含美國內部政策的改變，其實我們民主基金會的因應我認為特別重要。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員支持。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來我問一個小問題，最近外交部的小編在外交部粉專回應的時候，回應得比較嗆辣一點，我先講我沒有說什麼要回去對小編懲戒或者調查，我不是這個意思，我在想的一件事情就是，其實小編的回復有一些是有創意的，但問題是創意要用在哪一個部分？我覺得這可以再思量，我覺得以外交部的立場……小編是近期尤其是網路世代所生的一個產物，過往還沒有小編的時代，在很多網站其實是有點類似像總編的一個地位，但現在小編有時候就是……因為小編某種程度代表一個人格化的政府，他會在上面發言，所以某種程度還是會代表外交部。因為他這是針對跟中國有關的議題，尤其那時候是跟六四有關，這當然也是現在很尷尬的地方，我們雖然把很多的業務切給陸委會，但其實對於中國的打壓，在外面應對的是外交部，所以在這個程度上面，對方用什麼樣的話語，我們要怎麼應對，還是有一種外交辭令，因為外交部本身有外交辭令上的一些要求。小編當然是比較生活化，然後讓人民覺得比較貼近，就像我這邊寫的，他是一個比較親切的公僕角色，我並沒有說這個一定是對或錯。其實我認為小編的地位應該要提升，小編地位提升之後，表示他在回復、發文時會有一定程度的審核及SOP，因為他跟外交部其實要更緊密的對接，在這個方面，對於小編發文或回文的SOP，還有到底是誰在審核這個機制，現在有沒有慢慢建立起來？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們國傳司當然有一些機制，我待會請他說。不過我覺得委員提這問題非常好。現在在社群媒體的時代，要怎麼樣很即時的互動，首先當然要正確，另外又要有一定的活潑性，這個空間如何捏，我並沒有去責怪任何人，但是用的語言，因為涉及到有一些是網軍來攻擊，小編也是人，他用某個方式去回應，我是覺得其實社會可以從另外一個角度看待；但是因為是外交部，有一些語詞在用的時候稍微要有一個理解，畢竟是用人物的方式來呈現外交部，我都沒有去責備我們的小編。我覺得一個人願意在第一線去捍衛外交部或國家，面對到網軍，甚至面對AI機器人大量的假訊息在攻擊的時候，我覺得大家也不用跟對方一般見識，我覺得有時候可以用更有智慧的方式或比較不是跟對方一樣用嗆的方式，而陷入對方的邏輯。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為說真的那時候有成為新聞的報導，某種程度其實又呈現了一次中國對我們的打壓，所以當然在呈現的目的上面，我們可以讓別人知道這個事情的嚴重性，因為現在尤其是在外交部或我們總統的臉書，外國的網軍很喜歡來洗版，所以感受當然也不是很好，我可以理解他當時的心境以及回文，其實某種程度凸顯了這個問題。我不會說這是一個對錯的問題，但是以後，因為小編在現今社會的責任會越來越重大，所以有關審核的機制、SOP等等，以及每一次如果出現了什麼事情誰要來說明等等之類的，這個機制如果建立好，我覺得可能比個案還要來得更重要。"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們會檢視一下這個機制。"],["沈委員伯洋：對、對、對，希望能夠趕快建立。","接下來這個問題其實我之前有稍微提過，但是在這個時間點我覺得也有必要再問一次，因為經濟學人有統計，全球已有70個國家認同，這個認同不是單純一個中國的問題，而是中國到底有沒有權利用任何手段達成統一，統一是錯誤的字眼，其實就是侵略，也就是有關用任何的手段去達成侵略的這件事情，中國一直嘗試去說服別的國家。我知道外交部要應對這件事情不是那麼容易，中國要去說服別的國家，這個我們很難去擋，但我們總是要有一些反制的方案，這是第一個。","第二個就是，這件事情外媒有報導，而臺灣內部對這個部分的報導其實是比較少的，但我總覺得這應該要讓國人知道，因為陸委會有時候做很多比如風險控管等等之類的，我覺得陸委會在這邊的能量，不一定還有辦法再關注這件事情，但因為這個事情涉及中國跟別的國家的外交事務，我覺得外交部如果能夠把這件事情更清楚地讓國人知道，應該會是一件重要的事。"],["林部長佳龍：我想這就要好好跟委員說明，這個事情非常重要，因為中共在造成新常態，他跟很多國家的共同聲明，最近有兩個現象，一個就是要把聯合國第2758號決議放進去，變成所謂一中原則的依據；另外一個就是所謂認同或支持中國可以採取任何手段來統一臺灣，或是說推動國家的統一，這個是在對武力犯臺建立他們在法理上的基礎，所以當我們跟很多國家講時，他們才意識到，我們也曾經阻止了……最近這半年來，中國企圖壓迫一些國家要寫上這幾句話，就是認同中國可以採用一切手段統一臺灣，因為有時候有些人可能在應付或是不知覺，那我們也透過這個東西去操作，比如像今年的G7，日本某種程度就是提醒，因為以前都會講一個中國政策，可是一個中國政策跟一個中國原則很難分別，老共就是不斷用這個方法去扭曲，所以在G7，我們就已經看到沒有再去提所謂的一中政策，我們也是用這個跟很多國家講，他們都覺得有道理，因為一中政策會被一中原則給扭曲掉，其實各個國家的一中政策也不太一樣，這個也是另外一個我們的反制，也有成功的例子。至於說有七十幾個國家認同他們，但其實還有一百多個國家我們要做好跟他們的溝通，避免再有更多重複這樣的情形。就像法律戰，他們為他們的軍事犯臺建立所謂的不管是法理基礎或是未來混合戰的操作，這一點確實委員有提出來，這也是我們現在在外交領域上，可以說每天都要面對的一個新常態，而我們也有所因應。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，感謝部長，不好意思，超過一點時間，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋召委的質詢。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}}