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\"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 286.971, \"end\": 287.311, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 287.311, \"end\": 287.492, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 287.492, \"end\": 287.592, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 287.592, \"end\": 287.612, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 289.295, \"end\": 309.589, \"text\": \"因為這人頭啊 他就沒有錢啊我相信說 法務部是不是也應該研理說如何遏止這些CN集團利用人頭來擔任負責人 結果規避查緝那法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的一個不法行為繼續的發生\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 289.295, \"end\": 289.695, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 289.695, \"end\": 290.156, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 290.156, \"end\": 290.616, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 290.616, \"end\": 290.756, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 290.756, \"end\": 290.896, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 290.896, 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{\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 305.286, \"end\": 305.446, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 305.446, \"end\": 306.327, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 306.327, \"end\": 306.747, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 306.747, \"end\": 306.967, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 306.967, \"end\": 307.428, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 307.428, \"end\": 308.308, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"遏\"}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 308.308, \"end\": 308.688, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 308.688, \"end\": 308.769, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 308.769, \"end\": 308.989, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 308.989, \"end\": 309.209, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 309.209, \"end\": 309.429, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 309.429, \"end\": 309.549, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 309.549, \"end\": 309.569, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 309.569, \"end\": 309.589, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 311.532, \"end\": 331.463, \"text\": \"不光是食鹽集團其實在其他相類型的案件犯罪中都會有這種以人頭作為公司或者是法人負責人的情況不管是逃避追緝或者是逃避刑事責任行政法都有的情況那我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關來精進的去辦理這樣的類似的檢查器\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 311.532, \"end\": 311.652, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 311.652, \"end\": 311.812, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 311.812, \"end\": 311.972, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 311.972, \"end\": 312.273, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"鹽\"}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 312.273, \"end\": 312.653, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 312.653, \"end\": 312.913, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 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320.017, \"end\": 320.157, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 320.157, \"end\": 320.857, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 320.857, \"end\": 320.957, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 320.957, \"end\": 321.097, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 321.097, \"end\": 321.237, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"逃\", \"start\": 321.237, \"end\": 321.417, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"避\", \"start\": 321.417, \"end\": 321.598, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 321.598, \"end\": 322.198, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"緝\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 322.198, \"end\": 322.358, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 322.358, \"end\": 322.518, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 322.518, \"end\": 323.018, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"逃\", \"start\": 323.018, \"end\": 323.158, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"避\", \"start\": 323.158, \"end\": 323.278, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"刑\", 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\"end\": 327.18, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 327.18, \"end\": 327.401, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 327.401, \"end\": 327.661, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 327.661, \"end\": 327.961, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 327.961, \"end\": 328.741, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 328.741, \"end\": 329.122, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 329.122, \"end\": 329.322, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 329.322, \"end\": 329.802, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 329.802, \"end\": 329.982, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 329.982, \"end\": 330.562, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"似\", \"start\": 330.562, \"end\": 330.702, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 330.702, \"end\": 331.203, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 331.203, \"end\": 331.443, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"器\", \"start\": 331.443, \"end\": 331.463, \"score\": 0.784}]}, {\"start\": 331.963, \"end\": 348.734, \"text\": \"OK 好 謝謝接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見我想選罷法第81條第三項規定同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人提議人及連署人的人數應該分別計算\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 331.963, \"end\": 332.123, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 332.123, \"end\": 332.263, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 332.263, \"end\": 333.944, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 333.944, \"end\": 334.084, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 334.084, \"end\": 334.225, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 334.225, \"end\": 334.285, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 334.285, \"end\": 334.645, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", 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638.778, \"end\": 638.798, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 638.798, \"end\": 638.818, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 638.818, \"end\": 638.838, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 638.838, \"end\": 638.858, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"當\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:02,191\n蔡總部長蔡總部長好委員好謝謝部長好部長\n\n2\n00:00:10,267 --> 00:00:38,762\n我想在這個2019年2月啊當時因為省紀部的審核報告所以監察院進一步的去查核後續的監察院報告指出財政部長期消極以韓文要求地方政府全然未派源實地查核以落實執行菸捐經費運用要點所定的實地查核機制導致地方政府持續多年未依專款專用的原則來辦理運用茶器的經費\n\n3\n00:00:40,123 --> 00:01:08,942\n因此後來監察院也糾正了財政部但是我們看到上週有媒體報導有海巡人員涉嫌勾結私煙集團詐領私煙的查緝獎金高達數億國庫署在6月10號雖然有發出新聞稿做出相關的說明但是針對這個案件我想了解說財政部內部是否已經有去了解到底被詐領的金額有多少\n\n4\n00:01:10,203 --> 00:01:23,513\n那國庫署的新聞稿中對這些被詐領的金額其實他沒有做任何的說明就金額的現在這個追討的結果如何並沒有做一個說明所以後續我們對於追討會採取哪些動作請部長來說明謝謝委員對於這樣的一個情況我們認為應該要嚴處\n\n5\n00:01:35,051 --> 00:01:49,439\n那另外對於這一個個案目前因為檢調司法在偵查當中那我們到第一個動作我們就是發函給海巡署看能不能提供我們相關資料這個個案到底這個人領走了多少\n\n6\n00:01:50,214 --> 00:02:08,613\n金額的獎金那麼我們後續才能夠做相關的一個所以財政部還是要等到司法偵辦的一個結果對如果司法偵查出來以後會更明確這個人所涉及的一個個案那目前因為我們也大概透過各種方式來了解同時也發函給海巡署這樣子\n\n7\n00:02:09,694 --> 00:02:26,392\n但因為司法偵辦的結果通常耗日廢時是不是可以跟我們直接跟海巡署這邊跟海委會來做一個行政的一個調查到底他們這個詐領了多少錢然後我們提早跟他來追討\n\n8\n00:02:26,972 --> 00:02:44,967\n是的我們這個部分我們會再跟海委會跟海巡署來請他們再提供那追討的未來的結果如何也請財政部能夠再提供相關的一個追討的資料給我們財委會好的我們會把後面的追查結果提報告給委員會謝謝委員\n\n9\n00:02:47,509 --> 00:03:09,868\n另外我們關於媒體報導中他也提到說私菸茶器所處理的上億元的罰款因為私菸集團都是利用人頭來當負責人因此導致罰款最後都扣不到成為呆帳但是我們的獎金是一樣的發放那罰款扣不到但是獎金還是一樣給\n\n10\n00:03:11,269 --> 00:03:19,939\n造成聽起來讓人們的感覺就是說這個國庫損失不少像這樣子的一個情況未來要如何補救\n\n11\n00:03:20,566 --> 00:03:24,768\n是謝謝委員對於有關發給茶器這個獎金的部分是為了鼓勵努力跟積極茶器的人員給予獎勵那至於他所課真的罰還沒有能夠收到那涉及到這個這個這所謂的處分人他就對變那個人本身的財力那這個部分呢我想我們會在下一步的部分會在制度面上來做一個設計\n\n12\n00:03:46,118 --> 00:04:04,110\n在制度面上設計來避免有這樣的一個情況尤其是找所謂的人頭或低收入戶他根本就沒有財力的人來當人頭而造成這樣一個情況我們在制度面要設計然後讓他做得更精進更有效謝謝委員長謝謝部長部長你請回接下來請法務部的劉主任檢察官劉主任檢察官請\n\n13\n00:04:18,847 --> 00:04:37,726\n對於我剛才提到的就是私菸集團的集團利用人頭當負責人導致我們罰款扣不到的情況當然剛才財務部說是會研擬但是我覺得這跟法務部的業務也有關那法務部對這種罰款扣不到的情況是否也會有相對應的一個措施\n\n14\n00:04:38,758 --> 00:04:47,612\n法管扣不到的時候如果說之後主管機關有移送到我們行政執行署來做強制執行的話我們也會配合來辦理\n\n15\n00:04:49,295 --> 00:05:09,589\n因為這人頭啊他就沒有錢啊我相信說法務部是不是也應該研理說如何遏止這些CN集團利用人頭來擔任負責人結果規避查緝那法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的一個不法行為繼續的發生\n\n16\n00:05:11,532 --> 00:05:31,463\n不光是食鹽集團其實在其他相類型的案件犯罪中都會有這種以人頭作為公司或者是法人負責人的情況不管是逃避追緝或者是逃避刑事責任行政法都有的情況那我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關來精進的去辦理這樣的類似的檢查器\n\n17\n00:05:31,963 --> 00:05:48,734\nOK好謝謝接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見我想選罷法第81條第三項規定同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人提議人及連署人的人數應該分別計算\n\n18\n00:05:49,895 --> 00:06:04,368\n所以如果說現在這個霸團就是他送進來的連署書第一階段的提議人跟第二階段的連署人是有重複連署的一個情況我想請教法國普對於這種霸團\n\n19\n00:06:05,609 --> 00:06:29,495\n他明知故犯第一階段的提人你不能再成為第二階段的連署人結果你積極的去鼓吹告訴說請第一階段的提人你二階也來連署然後為了湊數灌水把這些一階段提人的連署書也把它一起湊起來重複連署達到我們二階法定的一個罷免門檻\n\n20\n00:06:31,155 --> 00:06:43,324\n請問這樣的行為是不是用適用詐素來獲取不法利益讓被罷免的人可以達到被罷免的一個門檻這是不是一個施行詐素的詐欺行為啊區片中選會這樣是不是詐欺行為啊\n\n21\n00:06:49,031 --> 00:07:06,836\n報告委員有關於刑法的詐欺罪它規定在339條那它是屬於財產犯罪的類型那要件的話是要求說個人要被告行為人要有意圖為自己不法或第三人不法之所有意圖那也必須要適用詐數就誠如剛才委員所說的詐數的部分\n\n22\n00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:35,027\n那最後的話他要求必須要有財產上的損害或者是獲得類似於財產上的不法利益那在符合這些構成要件的前提下才會去探討說是否這個行為是該當那回到剛才委員所提到的選罷法81條第三項的部分那固然這邊有規定一個強制規定禁止說這個提名人提議人作為一個不得為第二屆的連署人不得為連署人的部分\n\n23\n00:07:36,087 --> 00:07:58,770\n那明明是故犯啊是知道有沒有犯下什麼罪那如果是從財產犯罪來講的話還是必須要回到財產犯罪裡面的本質就是要有財產上的損害你意思說這個是有私刑詐欺的太陽存在但是是不是構成詐欺罪因為它不屬於財產犯罪所以你認為可能這個還要再做一個進一步的分析嘛是不是你的意思是這樣\n\n24\n00:08:00,361 --> 00:08:28,633\n詐數是否存在還是必須要由個案去判斷不管是積極的使用詐數或者是消極不為而使人誤認都有可能構成或不構成的話還是要個案去看好那我接著再問你如果說他這樣子的一個連署行為就是法律已經明確規定你不得為二階的連署人如果他還去連署請問這樣的二階的連署書是有效還無效違反法律的禁止規定應該講的\n\n25\n00:08:31,005 --> 00:08:55,942\n正如同說這個是一個違反法律的禁止規定來講其實像類似的比如說像股東會也有一些召開的一些強行禁止規定那有可能是造成股東會自始不成立無效或者是得撤銷那相同的在選罷法81條第三項有一個強行禁止規定的前提之下到底這樣的法律效果是如何的話可能還是要由主管機關來去做一個解釋這邊我們這邊就\n\n26\n00:08:57,864 --> 00:09:13,460\n相對的就是可能還是集中在刑事案件的偵辦上那跟委員另外報告的是有關於這個刑法的214條有關於使公務員登載不實的部分那當然也有可能會涉及到這一塊的犯罪構成要件\n\n27\n00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:36,966\n但是使公務員登載不實的部分的話我們現在司法實務是要求公務員如果有實質審查義務的話就比較不會該當於本罪所以在探討81條第三項違反提議人跟連署人同一的情況下這部分就要回到去看主管機關是不是有實質審查的義務來去判斷是不是有公務員使公務員登載不實的一個罪責可能性\n\n28\n00:09:37,426 --> 00:10:02,941\n好OK這當然是我是認為他有實質審查的義務才能判斷說到底這個是不是有重複去抄寫去偽造文書或者是利用人家的個資去違反個人資料保護法的相關的問題所以這個重複聯署牽涉到的刑法的問題就是他可能是偽造文書他可能違反個人資料保護法因為一個正常的人不可能去同時簽兩份的聯署書\n\n29\n00:10:05,442 --> 00:10:29,291\n或者明知這個是第一階段我已經簽過二階不能再去連署他還去連署所以這個疑問是非常大的我想法務部也要去正視這個問題檢調要去介入我想這個部分我會去提告也希望檢調要積極地去調查到底有沒有偽造歸宿因為分數非常的多高達總分數的五分之一之多這麼多\n\n30\n00:10:31,492 --> 00:10:38,858\n這個一定要積極的去調查去申辦有沒有偽造文書有沒有違反個人資料保護法以上謝謝好謝謝林世民委員諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢請我們現在可以開始發便當\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t2191\t蔡總部長蔡總部長好委員好謝謝部長好 部長\n10267\t38762\t我想在這個2019年2月啊當時因為省紀部的審核報告所以監察院進一步的去查核後續的監察院報告指出財政部長期消極以韓文要求地方政府全然未派源實地查核以落實執行菸捐經費運用要點所定的實地查核機制導致地方政府持續多年未依專款專用的原則來辦理運用茶器的經費\n40123\t68942\t因此後來監察院也糾正了財政部但是我們看到上週有媒體報導有海巡人員涉嫌勾結私煙集團詐領私煙的查緝獎金高達數億國庫署在6月10號雖然有發出新聞稿做出相關的說明但是針對這個案件我想了解說財政部內部是否已經有去了解到底被詐領的金額有多少\n70203\t83513\t那國庫署的新聞稿中對這些被詐領的金額其實他沒有做任何的說明就金額的現在這個追討的結果如何並沒有做一個說明所以後續我們對於追討會採取哪些動作請部長來說明謝謝委員對於這樣的一個情況我們認為應該要嚴處\n95051\t109439\t那另外對於這一個個案目前因為檢調司法在偵查當中那我們到第一個動作我們就是發函給海巡署看能不能提供我們相關資料這個個案到底這個人領走了多少\n110214\t128613\t金額的獎金那麼我們後續才能夠做相關的一個所以財政部還是要等到司法偵辦的一個結果對 如果司法偵查出來以後會更明確這個人所涉及的一個個案那目前因為我們也大概透過各種方式來了解同時也發函給海巡署這樣子\n129694\t146392\t但因為司法偵辦的結果通常耗日廢時是不是可以跟我們直接跟海巡署這邊跟海委會來做一個行政的一個調查到底他們這個詐領了多少錢然後我們提早跟他來追討\n146972\t164967\t是的我們這個部分我們會再跟海委會跟海巡署來請他們再提供那追討的未來的結果如何也請財政部能夠再提供相關的一個追討的資料給我們財委會好的我們會把後面的追查結果提報告給委員會謝謝委員\n167509\t189868\t另外我們關於媒體報導中他也提到說私菸茶器所處理的上億元的罰款因為私菸集團都是利用人頭來當負責人因此導致罰款最後都扣不到成為呆帳但是我們的獎金是一樣的發放那罰款扣不到但是獎金還是一樣給\n191269\t199939\t造成聽起來讓人們的感覺就是說這個國庫損失不少像這樣子的一個情況未來要如何補救\n200566\t204768\t是謝謝委員對於有關發給茶器這個獎金的部分是為了鼓勵努力跟積極茶器的人員給予獎勵那至於他所課真的罰還沒有能夠收到那涉及到這個這個這所謂的處分人他就對變那個人本身的財力那這個部分呢我想我們會在下一步的部分會在制度面上來做一個設計\n226118\t244110\t在制度面上設計來避免有這樣的一個情況尤其是找所謂的人頭或低收入戶他根本就沒有財力的人來當人頭而造成這樣一個情況我們在制度面要設計然後讓他做得更精進更有效謝謝委員長謝謝部長 部長你請回接下來請法務部的劉主任檢察官劉主任檢察官請\n258847\t277726\t對於我剛才提到的就是私菸集團的集團利用人頭當負責人導致我們罰款扣不到的情況當然剛才財務部說是會研擬但是我覺得這跟法務部的業務也有關那法務部對這種罰款扣不到的情況是否也會有相對應的一個措施\n278758\t287612\t法管扣不到的時候如果說之後主管機關有移送到我們行政執行署來做強制執行的話我們也會配合來辦理\n289295\t309589\t因為這人頭啊 他就沒有錢啊我相信說 法務部是不是也應該研理說如何遏止這些CN集團利用人頭來擔任負責人 結果規避查緝那法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的一個不法行為繼續的發生\n311532\t331463\t不光是食鹽集團其實在其他相類型的案件犯罪中都會有這種以人頭作為公司或者是法人負責人的情況不管是逃避追緝或者是逃避刑事責任行政法都有的情況那我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關來精進的去辦理這樣的類似的檢查器\n331963\t348734\tOK 好 謝謝接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見我想選罷法第81條第三項規定同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人提議人及連署人的人數應該分別計算\n349895\t364368\t所以如果說現在這個霸團就是他送進來的連署書第一階段的提議人跟第二階段的連署人是有重複連署的一個情況我想請教法國普對於這種霸團\n365609\t389495\t他明知故犯第一階段的提人你不能再成為第二階段的連署人結果你積極的去鼓吹告訴說請第一階段的提人你二階也來連署然後為了湊數灌水把這些一階段提人的連署書也把它一起湊起來重複連署達到我們二階法定的一個罷免門檻\n391155\t403324\t請問這樣的行為是不是用適用詐素來獲取不法利益讓被罷免的人可以達到被罷免的一個門檻這是不是一個施行詐素的詐欺行為啊區片中選會這樣是不是詐欺行為啊\n409031\t426836\t報告委員有關於刑法的詐欺罪它規定在339條那它是屬於財產犯罪的類型那要件的話是要求說個人要被告行為人要有意圖為自己不法或第三人不法之所有意圖那也必須要適用詐數就誠如剛才委員所說的詐數的部分\n427276\t455027\t那最後的話他要求必須要有財產上的損害或者是獲得類似於財產上的不法利益那在符合這些構成要件的前提下才會去探討說是否這個行為是該當那回到剛才委員所提到的選罷法81條第三項的部分那固然這邊有規定一個強制規定禁止說這個提名人提議人作為一個不得為第二屆的連署人不得為連署人的部分\n456087\t478770\t那明明是故犯啊 是知道有沒有犯下什麼罪那如果是從財產犯罪來講的話還是必須要回到財產犯罪裡面的本質就是要有財產上的損害你意思說這個是有私刑詐欺的太陽存在但是是不是構成詐欺罪因為它不屬於財產犯罪所以你認為可能這個還要再做一個進一步的分析嘛是不是你的意思是這樣\n480361\t508633\t詐數是否存在還是必須要由個案去判斷不管是積極的使用詐數或者是消極不為而使人誤認都有可能構成或不構成的話還是要個案去看好那我接著再問你如果說他這樣子的一個連署行為就是法律已經明確規定你不得為二階的連署人如果他還去連署請問這樣的二階的連署書是有效還無效違反法律的禁止規定應該講的\n511005\t535942\t正如同說這個是一個違反法律的禁止規定來講其實像類似的比如說像股東會也有一些召開的一些強行禁止規定那有可能是造成股東會自始不成立無效或者是得撤銷那相同的在選罷法81條第三項有一個強行禁止規定的前提之下到底這樣的法律效果是如何的話可能還是要由主管機關來去做一個解釋這邊我們這邊就\n537864\t553460\t相對的就是可能還是集中在刑事案件的偵辦上那跟委員另外報告的是有關於這個刑法的214條有關於使公務員登載不實的部分那當然也有可能會涉及到這一塊的犯罪構成要件\n553960\t576966\t但是使公務員登載不實的部分的話我們現在司法實務是要求公務員如果有實質審查義務的話就比較不會該當於本罪所以在探討81條第三項違反提議人跟連署人同一的情況下這部分就要回到去看主管機關是不是有實質審查的義務來去判斷是不是有公務員使公務員登載不實的一個罪責可能性\n577426\t602941\t好 OK這當然是我是認為他有實質審查的義務才能判斷說到底這個是不是有重複去抄寫去偽造文書或者是利用人家的個資去違反個人資料保護法的相關的問題所以這個重複聯署牽涉到的刑法的問題就是他可能是偽造文書他可能違反個人資料保護法因為一個正常的人不可能去同時簽兩份的聯署書\n605442\t629291\t或者明知這個是第一階段我已經簽過二階不能再去連署他還去連署所以這個疑問是非常大的我想法務部也要去正視這個問題檢調要去介入我想這個部分我會去提告也希望檢調要積極地去調查到底有沒有偽造歸宿因為分數非常的多高達總分數的五分之一之多這麼多\n631492\t638858\t這個一定要積極的去調查去申辦有沒有偽造文書有沒有違反個人資料保護法以上 謝謝好 謝謝林世民委員諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢請我們現在可以開始發便當\n","txt":"蔡總部長蔡總部長好委員好謝謝部長好 部長\n我想在這個2019年2月啊當時因為省紀部的審核報告所以監察院進一步的去查核後續的監察院報告指出財政部長期消極以韓文要求地方政府全然未派源實地查核以落實執行菸捐經費運用要點所定的實地查核機制導致地方政府持續多年未依專款專用的原則來辦理運用茶器的經費\n因此後來監察院也糾正了財政部但是我們看到上週有媒體報導有海巡人員涉嫌勾結私煙集團詐領私煙的查緝獎金高達數億國庫署在6月10號雖然有發出新聞稿做出相關的說明但是針對這個案件我想了解說財政部內部是否已經有去了解到底被詐領的金額有多少\n那國庫署的新聞稿中對這些被詐領的金額其實他沒有做任何的說明就金額的現在這個追討的結果如何並沒有做一個說明所以後續我們對於追討會採取哪些動作請部長來說明謝謝委員對於這樣的一個情況我們認為應該要嚴處\n那另外對於這一個個案目前因為檢調司法在偵查當中那我們到第一個動作我們就是發函給海巡署看能不能提供我們相關資料這個個案到底這個人領走了多少\n金額的獎金那麼我們後續才能夠做相關的一個所以財政部還是要等到司法偵辦的一個結果對 如果司法偵查出來以後會更明確這個人所涉及的一個個案那目前因為我們也大概透過各種方式來了解同時也發函給海巡署這樣子\n但因為司法偵辦的結果通常耗日廢時是不是可以跟我們直接跟海巡署這邊跟海委會來做一個行政的一個調查到底他們這個詐領了多少錢然後我們提早跟他來追討\n是的我們這個部分我們會再跟海委會跟海巡署來請他們再提供那追討的未來的結果如何也請財政部能夠再提供相關的一個追討的資料給我們財委會好的我們會把後面的追查結果提報告給委員會謝謝委員\n另外我們關於媒體報導中他也提到說私菸茶器所處理的上億元的罰款因為私菸集團都是利用人頭來當負責人因此導致罰款最後都扣不到成為呆帳但是我們的獎金是一樣的發放那罰款扣不到但是獎金還是一樣給\n造成聽起來讓人們的感覺就是說這個國庫損失不少像這樣子的一個情況未來要如何補救\n是謝謝委員對於有關發給茶器這個獎金的部分是為了鼓勵努力跟積極茶器的人員給予獎勵那至於他所課真的罰還沒有能夠收到那涉及到這個這個這所謂的處分人他就對變那個人本身的財力那這個部分呢我想我們會在下一步的部分會在制度面上來做一個設計\n在制度面上設計來避免有這樣的一個情況尤其是找所謂的人頭或低收入戶他根本就沒有財力的人來當人頭而造成這樣一個情況我們在制度面要設計然後讓他做得更精進更有效謝謝委員長謝謝部長 部長你請回接下來請法務部的劉主任檢察官劉主任檢察官請\n對於我剛才提到的就是私菸集團的集團利用人頭當負責人導致我們罰款扣不到的情況當然剛才財務部說是會研擬但是我覺得這跟法務部的業務也有關那法務部對這種罰款扣不到的情況是否也會有相對應的一個措施\n法管扣不到的時候如果說之後主管機關有移送到我們行政執行署來做強制執行的話我們也會配合來辦理\n因為這人頭啊 他就沒有錢啊我相信說 法務部是不是也應該研理說如何遏止這些CN集團利用人頭來擔任負責人 結果規避查緝那法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的一個不法行為繼續的發生\n不光是食鹽集團其實在其他相類型的案件犯罪中都會有這種以人頭作為公司或者是法人負責人的情況不管是逃避追緝或者是逃避刑事責任行政法都有的情況那我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關來精進的去辦理這樣的類似的檢查器\nOK 好 謝謝接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見我想選罷法第81條第三項規定同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人提議人及連署人的人數應該分別計算\n所以如果說現在這個霸團就是他送進來的連署書第一階段的提議人跟第二階段的連署人是有重複連署的一個情況我想請教法國普對於這種霸團\n他明知故犯第一階段的提人你不能再成為第二階段的連署人結果你積極的去鼓吹告訴說請第一階段的提人你二階也來連署然後為了湊數灌水把這些一階段提人的連署書也把它一起湊起來重複連署達到我們二階法定的一個罷免門檻\n請問這樣的行為是不是用適用詐素來獲取不法利益讓被罷免的人可以達到被罷免的一個門檻這是不是一個施行詐素的詐欺行為啊區片中選會這樣是不是詐欺行為啊\n報告委員有關於刑法的詐欺罪它規定在339條那它是屬於財產犯罪的類型那要件的話是要求說個人要被告行為人要有意圖為自己不法或第三人不法之所有意圖那也必須要適用詐數就誠如剛才委員所說的詐數的部分\n那最後的話他要求必須要有財產上的損害或者是獲得類似於財產上的不法利益那在符合這些構成要件的前提下才會去探討說是否這個行為是該當那回到剛才委員所提到的選罷法81條第三項的部分那固然這邊有規定一個強制規定禁止說這個提名人提議人作為一個不得為第二屆的連署人不得為連署人的部分\n那明明是故犯啊 是知道有沒有犯下什麼罪那如果是從財產犯罪來講的話還是必須要回到財產犯罪裡面的本質就是要有財產上的損害你意思說這個是有私刑詐欺的太陽存在但是是不是構成詐欺罪因為它不屬於財產犯罪所以你認為可能這個還要再做一個進一步的分析嘛是不是你的意思是這樣\n詐數是否存在還是必須要由個案去判斷不管是積極的使用詐數或者是消極不為而使人誤認都有可能構成或不構成的話還是要個案去看好那我接著再問你如果說他這樣子的一個連署行為就是法律已經明確規定你不得為二階的連署人如果他還去連署請問這樣的二階的連署書是有效還無效違反法律的禁止規定應該講的\n正如同說這個是一個違反法律的禁止規定來講其實像類似的比如說像股東會也有一些召開的一些強行禁止規定那有可能是造成股東會自始不成立無效或者是得撤銷那相同的在選罷法81條第三項有一個強行禁止規定的前提之下到底這樣的法律效果是如何的話可能還是要由主管機關來去做一個解釋這邊我們這邊就\n相對的就是可能還是集中在刑事案件的偵辦上那跟委員另外報告的是有關於這個刑法的214條有關於使公務員登載不實的部分那當然也有可能會涉及到這一塊的犯罪構成要件\n但是使公務員登載不實的部分的話我們現在司法實務是要求公務員如果有實質審查義務的話就比較不會該當於本罪所以在探討81條第三項違反提議人跟連署人同一的情況下這部分就要回到去看主管機關是不是有實質審查的義務來去判斷是不是有公務員使公務員登載不實的一個罪責可能性\n好 OK這當然是我是認為他有實質審查的義務才能判斷說到底這個是不是有重複去抄寫去偽造文書或者是利用人家的個資去違反個人資料保護法的相關的問題所以這個重複聯署牽涉到的刑法的問題就是他可能是偽造文書他可能違反個人資料保護法因為一個正常的人不可能去同時簽兩份的聯署書\n或者明知這個是第一階段我已經簽過二階不能再去連署他還去連署所以這個疑問是非常大的我想法務部也要去正視這個問題檢調要去介入我想這個部分我會去提告也希望檢調要積極地去調查到底有沒有偽造歸宿因為分數非常的多高達總分數的五分之一之多這麼多\n這個一定要積極的去調查去申辦有沒有偽造文書有沒有違反個人資料保護法以上 謝謝好 謝謝林世民委員諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢請我們現在可以開始發便當\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:02.191\n蔡總部長蔡總部長好委員好謝謝部長好部長\n\n00:10.267 --> 00:38.762\n我想在這個2019年2月啊當時因為省紀部的審核報告所以監察院進一步的去查核後續的監察院報告指出財政部長期消極以韓文要求地方政府全然未派源實地查核以落實執行菸捐經費運用要點所定的實地查核機制導致地方政府持續多年未依專款專用的原則來辦理運用茶器的經費\n\n00:40.123 --> 01:08.942\n因此後來監察院也糾正了財政部但是我們看到上週有媒體報導有海巡人員涉嫌勾結私煙集團詐領私煙的查緝獎金高達數億國庫署在6月10號雖然有發出新聞稿做出相關的說明但是針對這個案件我想了解說財政部內部是否已經有去了解到底被詐領的金額有多少\n\n01:10.203 --> 01:23.513\n那國庫署的新聞稿中對這些被詐領的金額其實他沒有做任何的說明就金額的現在這個追討的結果如何並沒有做一個說明所以後續我們對於追討會採取哪些動作請部長來說明謝謝委員對於這樣的一個情況我們認為應該要嚴處\n\n01:35.051 --> 01:49.439\n那另外對於這一個個案目前因為檢調司法在偵查當中那我們到第一個動作我們就是發函給海巡署看能不能提供我們相關資料這個個案到底這個人領走了多少\n\n01:50.214 --> 02:08.613\n金額的獎金那麼我們後續才能夠做相關的一個所以財政部還是要等到司法偵辦的一個結果對如果司法偵查出來以後會更明確這個人所涉及的一個個案那目前因為我們也大概透過各種方式來了解同時也發函給海巡署這樣子\n\n02:09.694 --> 02:26.392\n但因為司法偵辦的結果通常耗日廢時是不是可以跟我們直接跟海巡署這邊跟海委會來做一個行政的一個調查到底他們這個詐領了多少錢然後我們提早跟他來追討\n\n02:26.972 --> 02:44.967\n是的我們這個部分我們會再跟海委會跟海巡署來請他們再提供那追討的未來的結果如何也請財政部能夠再提供相關的一個追討的資料給我們財委會好的我們會把後面的追查結果提報告給委員會謝謝委員\n\n02:47.509 --> 03:09.868\n另外我們關於媒體報導中他也提到說私菸茶器所處理的上億元的罰款因為私菸集團都是利用人頭來當負責人因此導致罰款最後都扣不到成為呆帳但是我們的獎金是一樣的發放那罰款扣不到但是獎金還是一樣給\n\n03:11.269 --> 03:19.939\n造成聽起來讓人們的感覺就是說這個國庫損失不少像這樣子的一個情況未來要如何補救\n\n03:20.566 --> 03:24.768\n是謝謝委員對於有關發給茶器這個獎金的部分是為了鼓勵努力跟積極茶器的人員給予獎勵那至於他所課真的罰還沒有能夠收到那涉及到這個這個這所謂的處分人他就對變那個人本身的財力那這個部分呢我想我們會在下一步的部分會在制度面上來做一個設計\n\n03:46.118 --> 04:04.110\n在制度面上設計來避免有這樣的一個情況尤其是找所謂的人頭或低收入戶他根本就沒有財力的人來當人頭而造成這樣一個情況我們在制度面要設計然後讓他做得更精進更有效謝謝委員長謝謝部長部長你請回接下來請法務部的劉主任檢察官劉主任檢察官請\n\n04:18.847 --> 04:37.726\n對於我剛才提到的就是私菸集團的集團利用人頭當負責人導致我們罰款扣不到的情況當然剛才財務部說是會研擬但是我覺得這跟法務部的業務也有關那法務部對這種罰款扣不到的情況是否也會有相對應的一個措施\n\n04:38.758 --> 04:47.612\n法管扣不到的時候如果說之後主管機關有移送到我們行政執行署來做強制執行的話我們也會配合來辦理\n\n04:49.295 --> 05:09.589\n因為這人頭啊他就沒有錢啊我相信說法務部是不是也應該研理說如何遏止這些CN集團利用人頭來擔任負責人結果規避查緝那法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的一個不法行為繼續的發生\n\n05:11.532 --> 05:31.463\n不光是食鹽集團其實在其他相類型的案件犯罪中都會有這種以人頭作為公司或者是法人負責人的情況不管是逃避追緝或者是逃避刑事責任行政法都有的情況那我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關來精進的去辦理這樣的類似的檢查器\n\n05:31.963 --> 05:48.734\nOK好謝謝接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見我想選罷法第81條第三項規定同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人提議人及連署人的人數應該分別計算\n\n05:49.895 --> 06:04.368\n所以如果說現在這個霸團就是他送進來的連署書第一階段的提議人跟第二階段的連署人是有重複連署的一個情況我想請教法國普對於這種霸團\n\n06:05.609 --> 06:29.495\n他明知故犯第一階段的提人你不能再成為第二階段的連署人結果你積極的去鼓吹告訴說請第一階段的提人你二階也來連署然後為了湊數灌水把這些一階段提人的連署書也把它一起湊起來重複連署達到我們二階法定的一個罷免門檻\n\n06:31.155 --> 06:43.324\n請問這樣的行為是不是用適用詐素來獲取不法利益讓被罷免的人可以達到被罷免的一個門檻這是不是一個施行詐素的詐欺行為啊區片中選會這樣是不是詐欺行為啊\n\n06:49.031 --> 07:06.836\n報告委員有關於刑法的詐欺罪它規定在339條那它是屬於財產犯罪的類型那要件的話是要求說個人要被告行為人要有意圖為自己不法或第三人不法之所有意圖那也必須要適用詐數就誠如剛才委員所說的詐數的部分\n\n07:07.276 --> 07:35.027\n那最後的話他要求必須要有財產上的損害或者是獲得類似於財產上的不法利益那在符合這些構成要件的前提下才會去探討說是否這個行為是該當那回到剛才委員所提到的選罷法81條第三項的部分那固然這邊有規定一個強制規定禁止說這個提名人提議人作為一個不得為第二屆的連署人不得為連署人的部分\n\n07:36.087 --> 07:58.770\n那明明是故犯啊是知道有沒有犯下什麼罪那如果是從財產犯罪來講的話還是必須要回到財產犯罪裡面的本質就是要有財產上的損害你意思說這個是有私刑詐欺的太陽存在但是是不是構成詐欺罪因為它不屬於財產犯罪所以你認為可能這個還要再做一個進一步的分析嘛是不是你的意思是這樣\n\n08:00.361 --> 08:28.633\n詐數是否存在還是必須要由個案去判斷不管是積極的使用詐數或者是消極不為而使人誤認都有可能構成或不構成的話還是要個案去看好那我接著再問你如果說他這樣子的一個連署行為就是法律已經明確規定你不得為二階的連署人如果他還去連署請問這樣的二階的連署書是有效還無效違反法律的禁止規定應該講的\n\n08:31.005 --> 08:55.942\n正如同說這個是一個違反法律的禁止規定來講其實像類似的比如說像股東會也有一些召開的一些強行禁止規定那有可能是造成股東會自始不成立無效或者是得撤銷那相同的在選罷法81條第三項有一個強行禁止規定的前提之下到底這樣的法律效果是如何的話可能還是要由主管機關來去做一個解釋這邊我們這邊就\n\n08:57.864 --> 09:13.460\n相對的就是可能還是集中在刑事案件的偵辦上那跟委員另外報告的是有關於這個刑法的214條有關於使公務員登載不實的部分那當然也有可能會涉及到這一塊的犯罪構成要件\n\n09:13.960 --> 09:36.966\n但是使公務員登載不實的部分的話我們現在司法實務是要求公務員如果有實質審查義務的話就比較不會該當於本罪所以在探討81條第三項違反提議人跟連署人同一的情況下這部分就要回到去看主管機關是不是有實質審查的義務來去判斷是不是有公務員使公務員登載不實的一個罪責可能性\n\n09:37.426 --> 10:02.941\n好OK這當然是我是認為他有實質審查的義務才能判斷說到底這個是不是有重複去抄寫去偽造文書或者是利用人家的個資去違反個人資料保護法的相關的問題所以這個重複聯署牽涉到的刑法的問題就是他可能是偽造文書他可能違反個人資料保護法因為一個正常的人不可能去同時簽兩份的聯署書\n\n10:05.442 --> 10:29.291\n或者明知這個是第一階段我已經簽過二階不能再去連署他還去連署所以這個疑問是非常大的我想法務部也要去正視這個問題檢調要去介入我想這個部分我會去提告也希望檢調要積極地去調查到底有沒有偽造歸宿因為分數非常的多高達總分數的五分之一之多這麼多\n\n10:31.492 --> 10:38.858\n這個一定要積極的去調查去申辦有沒有偽造文書有沒有違反個人資料保護法以上謝謝好謝謝林世民委員諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢請我們現在可以開始發便當\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":2.191,"text":"蔡總部長蔡總部長好委員好謝謝部長好 部長"},{"start":10.267,"end":38.762,"text":"我想在這個2019年2月啊當時因為省紀部的審核報告所以監察院進一步的去查核後續的監察院報告指出財政部長期消極以韓文要求地方政府全然未派源實地查核以落實執行菸捐經費運用要點所定的實地查核機制導致地方政府持續多年未依專款專用的原則來辦理運用茶器的經費"},{"start":40.123,"end":68.942,"text":"因此後來監察院也糾正了財政部但是我們看到上週有媒體報導有海巡人員涉嫌勾結私煙集團詐領私煙的查緝獎金高達數億國庫署在6月10號雖然有發出新聞稿做出相關的說明但是針對這個案件我想了解說財政部內部是否已經有去了解到底被詐領的金額有多少"},{"start":70.203,"end":83.513,"text":"那國庫署的新聞稿中對這些被詐領的金額其實他沒有做任何的說明就金額的現在這個追討的結果如何並沒有做一個說明所以後續我們對於追討會採取哪些動作請部長來說明謝謝委員對於這樣的一個情況我們認為應該要嚴處"},{"start":95.051,"end":109.439,"text":"那另外對於這一個個案目前因為檢調司法在偵查當中那我們到第一個動作我們就是發函給海巡署看能不能提供我們相關資料這個個案到底這個人領走了多少"},{"start":110.214,"end":128.613,"text":"金額的獎金那麼我們後續才能夠做相關的一個所以財政部還是要等到司法偵辦的一個結果對 如果司法偵查出來以後會更明確這個人所涉及的一個個案那目前因為我們也大概透過各種方式來了解同時也發函給海巡署這樣子"},{"start":129.694,"end":146.392,"text":"但因為司法偵辦的結果通常耗日廢時是不是可以跟我們直接跟海巡署這邊跟海委會來做一個行政的一個調查到底他們這個詐領了多少錢然後我們提早跟他來追討"},{"start":146.972,"end":164.967,"text":"是的我們這個部分我們會再跟海委會跟海巡署來請他們再提供那追討的未來的結果如何也請財政部能夠再提供相關的一個追討的資料給我們財委會好的我們會把後面的追查結果提報告給委員會謝謝委員"},{"start":167.509,"end":189.868,"text":"另外我們關於媒體報導中他也提到說私菸茶器所處理的上億元的罰款因為私菸集團都是利用人頭來當負責人因此導致罰款最後都扣不到成為呆帳但是我們的獎金是一樣的發放那罰款扣不到但是獎金還是一樣給"},{"start":191.269,"end":199.939,"text":"造成聽起來讓人們的感覺就是說這個國庫損失不少像這樣子的一個情況未來要如何補救"},{"start":200.566,"end":204.768,"text":"是謝謝委員對於有關發給茶器這個獎金的部分是為了鼓勵努力跟積極茶器的人員給予獎勵那至於他所課真的罰還沒有能夠收到那涉及到這個這個這所謂的處分人他就對變那個人本身的財力那這個部分呢我想我們會在下一步的部分會在制度面上來做一個設計"},{"start":226.118,"end":244.11,"text":"在制度面上設計來避免有這樣的一個情況尤其是找所謂的人頭或低收入戶他根本就沒有財力的人來當人頭而造成這樣一個情況我們在制度面要設計然後讓他做得更精進更有效謝謝委員長謝謝部長 部長你請回接下來請法務部的劉主任檢察官劉主任檢察官請"},{"start":258.847,"end":277.726,"text":"對於我剛才提到的就是私菸集團的集團利用人頭當負責人導致我們罰款扣不到的情況當然剛才財務部說是會研擬但是我覺得這跟法務部的業務也有關那法務部對這種罰款扣不到的情況是否也會有相對應的一個措施"},{"start":278.758,"end":287.612,"text":"法管扣不到的時候如果說之後主管機關有移送到我們行政執行署來做強制執行的話我們也會配合來辦理"},{"start":289.295,"end":309.589,"text":"因為這人頭啊 他就沒有錢啊我相信說 法務部是不是也應該研理說如何遏止這些CN集團利用人頭來擔任負責人 結果規避查緝那法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的一個不法行為繼續的發生"},{"start":311.532,"end":331.463,"text":"不光是食鹽集團其實在其他相類型的案件犯罪中都會有這種以人頭作為公司或者是法人負責人的情況不管是逃避追緝或者是逃避刑事責任行政法都有的情況那我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關來精進的去辦理這樣的類似的檢查器"},{"start":331.963,"end":348.734,"text":"OK 好 謝謝接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見我想選罷法第81條第三項規定同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人提議人及連署人的人數應該分別計算"},{"start":349.895,"end":364.368,"text":"所以如果說現在這個霸團就是他送進來的連署書第一階段的提議人跟第二階段的連署人是有重複連署的一個情況我想請教法國普對於這種霸團"},{"start":365.609,"end":389.495,"text":"他明知故犯第一階段的提人你不能再成為第二階段的連署人結果你積極的去鼓吹告訴說請第一階段的提人你二階也來連署然後為了湊數灌水把這些一階段提人的連署書也把它一起湊起來重複連署達到我們二階法定的一個罷免門檻"},{"start":391.155,"end":403.324,"text":"請問這樣的行為是不是用適用詐素來獲取不法利益讓被罷免的人可以達到被罷免的一個門檻這是不是一個施行詐素的詐欺行為啊區片中選會這樣是不是詐欺行為啊"},{"start":409.031,"end":426.836,"text":"報告委員有關於刑法的詐欺罪它規定在339條那它是屬於財產犯罪的類型那要件的話是要求說個人要被告行為人要有意圖為自己不法或第三人不法之所有意圖那也必須要適用詐數就誠如剛才委員所說的詐數的部分"},{"start":427.276,"end":455.027,"text":"那最後的話他要求必須要有財產上的損害或者是獲得類似於財產上的不法利益那在符合這些構成要件的前提下才會去探討說是否這個行為是該當那回到剛才委員所提到的選罷法81條第三項的部分那固然這邊有規定一個強制規定禁止說這個提名人提議人作為一個不得為第二屆的連署人不得為連署人的部分"},{"start":456.087,"end":478.77,"text":"那明明是故犯啊 是知道有沒有犯下什麼罪那如果是從財產犯罪來講的話還是必須要回到財產犯罪裡面的本質就是要有財產上的損害你意思說這個是有私刑詐欺的太陽存在但是是不是構成詐欺罪因為它不屬於財產犯罪所以你認為可能這個還要再做一個進一步的分析嘛是不是你的意思是這樣"},{"start":480.361,"end":508.633,"text":"詐數是否存在還是必須要由個案去判斷不管是積極的使用詐數或者是消極不為而使人誤認都有可能構成或不構成的話還是要個案去看好那我接著再問你如果說他這樣子的一個連署行為就是法律已經明確規定你不得為二階的連署人如果他還去連署請問這樣的二階的連署書是有效還無效違反法律的禁止規定應該講的"},{"start":511.005,"end":535.942,"text":"正如同說這個是一個違反法律的禁止規定來講其實像類似的比如說像股東會也有一些召開的一些強行禁止規定那有可能是造成股東會自始不成立無效或者是得撤銷那相同的在選罷法81條第三項有一個強行禁止規定的前提之下到底這樣的法律效果是如何的話可能還是要由主管機關來去做一個解釋這邊我們這邊就"},{"start":537.864,"end":553.46,"text":"相對的就是可能還是集中在刑事案件的偵辦上那跟委員另外報告的是有關於這個刑法的214條有關於使公務員登載不實的部分那當然也有可能會涉及到這一塊的犯罪構成要件"},{"start":553.96,"end":576.966,"text":"但是使公務員登載不實的部分的話我們現在司法實務是要求公務員如果有實質審查義務的話就比較不會該當於本罪所以在探討81條第三項違反提議人跟連署人同一的情況下這部分就要回到去看主管機關是不是有實質審查的義務來去判斷是不是有公務員使公務員登載不實的一個罪責可能性"},{"start":577.426,"end":602.941,"text":"好 OK這當然是我是認為他有實質審查的義務才能判斷說到底這個是不是有重複去抄寫去偽造文書或者是利用人家的個資去違反個人資料保護法的相關的問題所以這個重複聯署牽涉到的刑法的問題就是他可能是偽造文書他可能違反個人資料保護法因為一個正常的人不可能去同時簽兩份的聯署書"},{"start":605.442,"end":629.291,"text":"或者明知這個是第一階段我已經簽過二階不能再去連署他還去連署所以這個疑問是非常大的我想法務部也要去正視這個問題檢調要去介入我想這個部分我會去提告也希望檢調要積極地去調查到底有沒有偽造歸宿因為分數非常的多高達總分數的五分之一之多這麼多"},{"start":631.492,"end":638.858,"text":"這個一定要積極的去調查去申辦有沒有偽造文書有沒有違反個人資料保護法以上 謝謝好 謝謝林世民委員諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢請我們現在可以開始發便當"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":884,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時31分）謝謝主席，有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：部長好。部長，2019年2月當時因為審計部的審核報告，所以監察院進一步的去查核，後續監察院的報告指出，財政部長期消極以函文要求地方政府，全然未派員實地查核，以落實執行菸捐經費運用要點所訂的實地查核機制，導致地方政府持續多年未依專款專用的原則來辦理運用查緝的經費，因此後來監察院也糾正了財政部。但是我們看到上週有媒體報導，有海巡人員涉嫌勾結私菸集團詐領私菸的查緝獎金高達數億，國庫署在6月10號雖然有發出新聞稿做出相關的說明，但是針對這個案件，我想了解財政部內部是否已經有去了解，到底被詐領的金額有多少？國庫署的新聞稿中，對於被詐領的金額其實沒有做任何的說明，就現在追討的結果如何，也沒有做說明，後續我們會採取哪些動作來追討，請部長說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。對於這樣的情況，我們認為應該要嚴處。另外，對於這一個個案，目前因為檢調司法在偵查當中，當然我們第一個動作就是發函給海巡署，看能不能提供我們相關資料，這個個案到底這個人領走了多少金額的獎金，我們後續才能夠做相關的追討的動作……"],["林委員思銘：所以財政部還是要等到司法偵辦的結果？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，如果司法偵查出來以後，會更明確這個人所涉及的個案，目前我們當然也透過各種方式來了解，同時也發函給海巡署。"],["林委員思銘：部長，但因司法偵辦的結果通常耗日費時，是不是可以直接跟海巡署這邊，跟海委會來做一個行政的調查，到底他們詐領了多少錢，然後我們提早跟他來追討？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，這個部分我們會再跟海委會，跟海巡署來請他們再提供……"],["林委員思銘：好。那未來追討的結果如何，也請財政部能夠再提供相關的追討的資料給我們財委會，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們會把後面追查的結果，提報告給委員會。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：另外，媒體報導當中也提到，私菸查緝所處以的上億元罰款，因為私菸集團都是利用人頭來當負責人，因此導致罰款最後都扣不到成為呆帳，但是我們的獎金一樣的發放。罰款扣不到，但是獎金還是一樣給，聽起來我們的感覺就是國庫損失不少，像這樣的情況，未來要如何補救？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。發給查緝獎金是為了鼓勵努力跟積極查緝的人員給予獎勵，至於所課徵的罰鍰沒有能夠收到，涉及到所謂的處分人……"],["林委員思銘：變呆帳啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：那個人本身的財力，這個部分我想我們下一步會在制度面上來做個設計，在制度面上設計來避免有這樣的情況，尤其是找所謂的人頭或低收入戶，找根本就沒有財力的人來當人頭而造成這樣的情況，我們的制度面要設計，然後讓他做得更精進、更有效。"],["林委員思銘：好，OK，謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["林委員思銘：部長請回。接下來請法務部的劉主任檢察官。"],["主席：劉主任檢察官，請。"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：劉主任，對於我剛才提到的，私菸集團利用人頭當負責人，導致我們罰款扣不到的情況，當然剛才財政部說會研擬對策，但是我覺得這跟法務部的業務也有關，法務部對於這種罰款扣不到的情況，是否也會有相對應的措施？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：罰款扣不到的時候，如果之後主管機關有移送到我們行政執行署來做強制執行的話，我們也會配合來辦理。"],["林委員思銘：因為這些人頭就是沒有錢，我現在的意思是，法務部是不是也應該研擬，如何遏止這些私菸集團利用人頭擔任負責人以規避查緝，法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的不法行為繼續發生？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：不光是私菸集團，其實在其他相類的犯罪案件中都會……"],["林委員思銘：都會有嘛。"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：都會有這種以人頭作為公司或是法人負責人的情況，不管是逃避追緝，或者是逃避刑事責任、行政罰，都有這樣的情況，我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關精進的去辦理類似的案件查緝。"],["林委員思銘：好，OK，謝謝。接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見，選罷法第八十一條第三項規定，同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人，提議人及連署人的人數應分別計算。如果現在罷團送進來的連署書，第一階段的提議人跟第二階段的連署人有重複連署的情況，我想請教法務部，對於這種罷團明知故犯，第一階段的提議人不能再成為第二階段的連署人，結果罷團卻積極的去鼓吹，請第一階段的提議人二階也來連署，然後為了湊數灌水，把這些一階段提議人的連署書一起湊起來重複連署，以達到二階的法定罷免門檻，請問這樣的行為是否適用施用詐術獲取不法利益，讓被罷免人可以達到被罷免的門檻，這是不是一個施行詐術的詐欺行為？欺騙中選會，這樣是不是詐欺行為？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：報告委員，刑法的詐欺罪規定在第三百三十九條，它是屬於財產犯罪的類型，構成要件是要求被告行為人要有意圖為自己不法或第三人不法之所有意圖；也必須要施用詐術，就誠如剛才委員所說的詐術的部分；最後是要求必須要有財產上的損害，或者是獲得類似於財產上的不法利益。在符合這些構成要件的前提下，才會去探討是否這個行為是該當。"],["林委員思銘：是，好。"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：回到剛才委員所提到的選罷法第八十一條第三項，固然此項有一個強制規定，禁止提議人作為連署……"],["林委員思銘：不得為第二階的連署人。"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：不得為連署人的規定，那是……"],["林委員思銘：他明知故犯啊！"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：是。"],["林委員思銘：這樣有沒有犯下什麼罪？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：如果從財產犯罪來講的話，還是必須要回到財產犯罪的本質，就是要有財產上的損害。"],["林委員思銘：OK，我知道。主任，你的意思是說，這個是有施行詐術的態樣存在，但是不是構成詐欺罪，因為他不屬於財產犯罪，所以你認為可能這個還要再做進一步的分析，是不是？你的意思是這樣？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：詐術是否存在必須要就個案去判斷，不管是積極地施用詐術，或者是消極不為而使人誤認，都有可能構成或不構成，還是要個案去看。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好。我接著再問你，如果說他這樣子的連署行為，法律已經明確規定你不得為二階的連署人，如果他還去連署，請問這樣的二階的連署書是有效還是無效？違反法律的禁止規定啊！"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：正如同說這是一個違反法律的禁止規定來講，其實相類似的，比如說股東會也有一些召開的強行禁止規定，有可能是造成股東會自始不成立、無效或者是得撤銷；那相同的，在選罷法第八十一條第三項有一個強行禁止規定的前提之下，到底這樣的法律效果是如何？可能還是要由主管機關去做一個解釋，我們這邊相對的可能還是集中在刑事案件的偵辦上。","跟委員另外報告的是，刑法第二百十四條有關於使公務員登載不實的部分，當然也有可能會涉及到這一塊的犯罪構成要件，但是使公務員登載不實的部分，我們現在司法實務是要求公務員如果有實質審查義務就比較不會該當於本罪，所以在探討第八十一條第三項違反提議人跟連署人同一的情況下，這部分就要回到去看主管機關是不是有實質審查的義務，以此去判斷是不是有使公務員登載不實的罪責的可能性。"],["林委員思銘：好，OK。當然我是認為他有實質審查的義務才能判斷到底這個是不是有重複去抄寫、去偽造文書，或者是利用人家的個資去違反個人資料保護法的相關問題，所以這個重複連署牽涉到的刑法問題，就是他可能是偽造文書、可能違反個人資料保護法，因為一個正常的人不可能去同時簽兩份連署書，或者明知第一階段自己已經簽過，二階不能再去連署，而他還去連署，所以這個疑問是非常大的，我想法務部也要去正視這個問題，檢調要介入，我想這個部分我會去提告，也希望檢調要積極去調查到底有沒有偽造文書，因為份數非常多，高達總份數的五分之一之多，有這麼多，這個一定要積極去調查、偵辦有沒有偽造文書、有沒有違反個人資料保護法。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員質詢。下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。我們現在可以開始發便當，大家有需要可以享用。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}}