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1067.583, \"score\": 0.105}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,790 --> 00:00:26,311\n好莊委我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請我們法務部次長或署長就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好黃次長跟周署長好的\n\n2\n00:00:27,065 --> 00:00:41,821\n那今天衛福部也有我們署長這邊來代表所以有一些問題我會跟您請教所以我們今天是先針對這個癒症跟受刑人的一個處遇然後做一個制度性的檢討那本席這邊有鎖定兩個方向\n\n3\n00:00:43,783 --> 00:01:07,153\n所以我先把相關的資訊先羅列一下本期這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究所的統計數字那麼毒品適用者在五年內的再犯率是單純監禁大概高達72%然後採取緩起訴、賦命、戒治、治療的就降到了35.6%\n\n4\n00:01:08,994 --> 00:01:26,193\n所以從這邊呢可以看得出處遇模式如果不同對再犯的風險是正相關的顯著影響那另外是高齡的這個問題剛剛你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者這邊也有一些規劃那我這邊提醒一下\n\n5\n00:01:27,394 --> 00:01:31,176\n在數據上高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%但是到了10年之後2023的數據突然變成了一倍高9.6%目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2700人整個10年來成長了近3倍反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重\n\n6\n00:01:51,147 --> 00:02:02,836\n那剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提但是本席希望待會就更具體的能夠讓本席這邊了解在這個毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題那我想這個數字對於整個預證系統應該是還蠻有壓力的\n\n7\n00:02:08,921 --> 00:02:31,362\n不管是先前我們討論的空間、超收等等可是我們從這個數據裡面其實看得出整個毒品儲育還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關矯正機關不知道我這樣講你們怎麼看法因為這個矯正機關如果對它太過度依賴的話我們會以乏代療的陰影一直籠罩著\n\n8\n00:02:32,003 --> 00:02:57,219\n所以高齡受刑人重返社會的措施也有很多改善的空間所以今天我們針對如何有效的抑制還有延緩在犯跟促成社會的復歸是今天的重點所以我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討然後來看看現在的缺口在哪裡那我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向\n\n9\n00:02:59,206 --> 00:03:11,682\n所以在這個部分我想要請教法務部跟衛福部如果我們以病犯的視角來看待毒品的使用者那現行的處理制度是不是有機會讓治療來做優先的一個考量\n\n10\n00:03:15,046 --> 00:03:29,610\n那麼回顧整個毒品危害防治的制度設計原本這個觀察樂界跟強制樂界是一個醫療處遇的過渡手段最後的目標其實是要讓這個毒品適用者來接受醫療的這個協助\n\n11\n00:03:31,531 --> 00:03:47,771\n但是呢現況是這個觀察樂界跟強制戒制都以矯正屬的相關機構作為主體的一個執行那整個環境還是很像這個監禁的場域那你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒制那個毒品的犯罪嗎\n\n12\n00:03:48,892 --> 00:04:15,688\n那另外這個部分就來請教署長剛才雖然你們在報告有提到這個矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作那你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的這個規劃那可不可以將機構式的儲遇轉型為還起訴的中繼處手段或安置場所那這樣是不是能夠更有效的來做一些成效的評估從過去我們是否在犯\n\n13\n00:04:16,548 --> 00:04:34,470\n來把它轉成調整為是否延緩再犯或者是是否完成療程用病理跟復原的觀點來做一個指標那衛福部我這邊請教的是在你們的毒防中心成癮醫療門診的量能是不是能夠足夠來承擔\n\n14\n00:04:36,231 --> 00:04:58,943\n機構外儲預我知道你們剛才講到這個今年的預算也增加了不少那但是增加的這個面向是在哪裡所以地方的這個毒防中心是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態來共病狀態的這個風險進行評估跟儲預分流的這個能力那是不是請這個交政署跟衛福部\n\n15\n00:05:00,665 --> 00:05:12,298\n我先總體跟您說明大的方向然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告您的具體的問題那麼我想這個行政院這個跨部會的新世代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0\n\n16\n00:05:14,961 --> 00:05:38,940\n那在這個過程中呢剛委員提出來的問題我們其實都有看到所以我們本來就有一個強化多元處理特別是委員特別點出來的這個緩起訴負面戒癮治療的成效所以我們現在新生毒品犯的這一個人口已經逐年在遞減但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略但是因為緩起訴畢竟有他的法定要件\n\n17\n00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:58,020\n所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式所以我們才會強調說多元處理當然委員的意思是說這個機構處理可能效果比較不好盡量用非機構的處理但是我們要考慮到每個個案具體的狀況所以我們每一個多元的這個狀況都會並行那我們都會個別來檢討來精進那是不是也提一下衛福部\n\n18\n00:06:01,664 --> 00:06:21,893\n你們合作的一個狀態然後其實最重要就是說我們怎麼從病理的一個角度來看到這些受刑人的一個問題跟做實際的一些治療對我們都有這個在每一個多元的處理裡面都必須要來跟衛福部跟他們所屬的醫療的專業來做合作那是不是細節部分我來請兩位署長來跟委員做進一步說明\n\n19\n00:06:23,694 --> 00:06:45,707\n報告委員所謂的毒品犯是病犯他是犯人的同時也是病人所以在我們早期我們有跟像介治所就跟療養院來合作然後來發展本土化的介治模式然後在監獄這一端我們有所謂的科學實證\n\n20\n00:06:47,128 --> 00:07:12,075\n的毒品患處意計畫那至於我們跟衛福部其實在行政院那種跨部會合作裡面我們也都有包括以前的政務委員做一些指示我們會把相關的可能機構處意慢慢會轉向到社區處意包括委員有提到緩起訴確實他的效果會比較好\n\n21\n00:07:14,738 --> 00:07:26,575\n是不是大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點然後看是不是衛福部這邊可以回答本席剛才所提的一個內容的重點\n\n22\n00:07:34,574 --> 00:07:55,218\n陳盧委員提到我們都很認同藥營者應該要有一些醫療的介入所以長期以來我們大概有兩個方向一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作把醫療介營的服務導入到這個監所裡頭所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭就需要那第二個是出獄之後\n\n23\n00:07:56,938 --> 00:08:16,922\n出獄之後過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用賦命的方式或者是處獄的方式在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務本席這邊可不可以跟您請教目前你們在針對各個不同的毒品的施用形態有沒有比較細節的區分來做對受刑人的處理\n\n24\n00:08:20,143 --> 00:08:40,644\n我們現在大概分成兩類啦一種就是所謂的減害計畫就是用這個美沙通或者是哪路送對於這個鴉片類的這個成癮者的我們叫做減害減害的這個藥引治療這是一類那另外的話就是用行為治療那個都是在這個醫療機構來提供服務\n\n25\n00:08:42,125 --> 00:09:05,055\n所以看起來是大的方向但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態有一些調整或者是補強喔有沒有當然也會根據它的這個藥引的主要的那個成分會有不同剛剛講的這個減害計畫主要是針對鴉片類的那還有其他的有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種這個\n\n26\n00:09:07,997 --> 00:09:31,891\n我們叫替代療法減害替代療法而是要直接介治的也有不同的所以本席這邊跟你們提醒就是各種藥引有不同的一個狀態所以如果你們說經費變多的話那應該在這個部分處理得再更精緻一點這個是本席針對我們不要以法代療能夠把它真正當一個病理的脈絡來看\n\n27\n00:09:33,272 --> 00:09:48,986\n可能可以在效果上更為精進接下來本席這邊提到要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口我們知道大概今年我們已經邁向了高齡社會依據國際的經驗每日都已經針對高齡受刑人\n\n28\n00:09:55,391 --> 00:10:17,686\n設置專責的監獄或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區因為我們知道高齡人口會碰到適應困難如果關寡的受刑者他沒有子女來撫養然後中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場所以本席這邊想要了解目前我們在監獄\n\n29\n00:10:19,387 --> 00:10:45,384\n有沒有對高齡有專責的監獄那其次呢是那至少監獄裡面高齡區的設置狀況現況是如何那有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設寓所的這個標準規劃因為這個是我們不可能逃避的一個問題也是寓所的一個新的挑戰那這個部分不知道法務部這邊來目前做的怎麼樣呢\n\n30\n00:10:46,344 --> 00:11:12,675\n報告委員我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長春工廠就是收容這些高齡的受刑人再給他這個工廠比如這個工廠可能對他就萬一要設在一樓或是這個動線比較好的地方兼顧到他的安全\n\n31\n00:11:12,995 --> 00:11:36,671\n主講這邊提到的是這個工廠上回我們召委帶我們去參觀的這個就是參訪的這個寓所那我們也看到這個所謂的工廠的這個部分但是您現在講的是對高齡人這個工廠比較開放性的一個空間但是對於高齡人在寓所裡面的這個整個生活的空間是不是這個部分也應該納入一個專區的一個思維來處理\n\n32\n00:11:40,914 --> 00:11:57,432\n因為基本上每日都已經有這樣子的一個做法那高齡者在生活上也可能在跟其他受刑人的生活節奏會有一些比較大的落差所以這點是很需要去做處理跟面對的\n\n33\n00:11:57,972 --> 00:12:11,139\n是所以跟委員報告我們有所謂的樂齡計劃在115年我們爭取2400萬那116年我們爭取到1400萬因為115年它可能相關的府紀已經採購了所以在116年就少掉了1000萬我們也包括高雲壽行等的指引我講比較直接一點啦\n\n34\n00:12:26,568 --> 00:12:50,204\n是不是可以好好的考量在寓所裡面設定高齡的專區不管是這個在所謂的工廠比較開放性的空間跟生活面的這個空間或者是未來我們可以再仿效這些已開發就是已開發國家他們的做法然後在寓所裡面大家針對空間針對高齡者的行為行動去做一個分隔的這個處理\n\n35\n00:12:51,825 --> 00:13:18,837\n這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理我們可以參考日本啦日本它有高齡專區包括說它的工廠所以我們至少先從高齡專區開始嘛我們知道高齡大家都沒有那個高齡的經驗但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的這個生活節奏跟行為面確實是而且現在數量又變得比較多所以確實是要提早來做一些處理\n\n36\n00:13:19,997 --> 00:13:42,290\n這是本席很直接的一個建議那未來我也會針對這個部分來瞭解寓所在每一年的這個微型的調整跟中長期的一個計畫好不好報告委員是在日本的尾道建議他有收了60歲以上的有慢性病的受診人那重點就是有希望在台灣你們這個部分可以列入比較具體的考量好不好\n\n37\n00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:58,566\n他可能有一些胡踢工廠有一些相關的適合你講的是一些高齡的設施你講的是高齡的設施但是我講的是整個高齡受刑人的這個部分我們會再來研議好謝謝所以注意一下高齡者的生活面\n\n38\n00:13:59,227 --> 00:14:15,462\n那最後本席這邊了解一下就是說在這個矯正署跟對不起法務部相關的這個單位跟衛福部的一個合作的相關的這個人力資源和這個薪資所以現在我們\n\n39\n00:14:16,383 --> 00:14:30,951\n在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療這很重要的那剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有這個心理師、社工師的一個專業介入但是目前應該就本席這邊所看到的數據在專業服務上\n\n40\n00:14:33,072 --> 00:14:38,656\n有一些不足那最主要的就是說受刑人處於專業的這個失資的終點目前還沿用十年前十幾年前2012的標準那這個標準是低於市場行情的而導致呢矯正機關沒有辦法\n\n41\n00:14:49,022 --> 00:15:14,911\n吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師社工師或醫師的長期投入那麼署長矯正署是不是有盤點然後跟檢討整個的費用標準那對衛福部這個部分本席有針對毒品精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處於模式那如何將這種預防性的福利\n\n42\n00:15:16,292 --> 00:15:28,748\n導入矯正場域讓高風險的族群在出域以後也能夠進入社區還有接受身心照護的這個體系那這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答\n\n43\n00:15:31,084 --> 00:15:52,053\n有就告訴本席現在在做的那如果沒有你們在中長期的計畫有什麼樣子的一個想法跟委員報告這個確實矯正機關訂的是比較低啦如果是我們衛福部的計畫進去的那麼醫師的部分三個小時算一節的話是六千啦其他的醫師人員進去終點會是兩千確實是\n\n44\n00:15:55,014 --> 00:16:19,789\n是有點低嘛對不對所以我們就光看數據2012到現在那整個物價調整多少那如果我們要真正能夠找到能解決問題的相關人等是不是在薪資的部分法務部這邊應該來做一個整體的考量跟檢討嗎因為這有點細節我們回去盤點一下是不是哪些人會適用這個表因為剛剛石署長也有講到說這個如果是他們的計畫不是照這個表領\n\n45\n00:16:20,669 --> 00:16:26,692\n因為他們相關在這個部分比較專業所以我這邊提醒我們這邊來盤點一下我們目前的這個表適用狀況然後我們會來檢討你們如果盤點完之後是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席這邊也知道你們兩兆可不可以多加在這個部分多一些對口\n\n46\n00:16:44,141 --> 00:17:07,349\n然後更具體的為中長期的計畫來實施比較真的跟社會目前的脈絡現狀符合的一些方法我們其實都緊密在聯繫謝謝委員的關心謝謝好的謝謝那我最後只提醒一件事你們也不用回應了那本席要為立法院的其他同仁目前遇到的這個問題去敦促法務部你們應該依法秉公處理\n\n47\n00:17:09,810 --> 00:17:29,664\n那是不是檢察官可以在不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能檢察官都應該要展開調查那最近呢大家在這個所謂罷免的這個部分有許多看到許多連署份數的這個無效的這個連署份數\n\n48\n00:17:33,226 --> 00:17:47,583\n那如果被很多人質疑的話那是不是法務部這邊應該秉公處理不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查而不是只有接受到中選會的這個通知才辦好不好這是本席的一個提醒好嗎好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9790\t26311\t好 莊委我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請我們法務部次長或署長就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好黃次長跟周署長好的\n27065\t41821\t那今天衛福部也有我們署長這邊來代表所以有一些問題我會跟您請教所以我們今天是先針對這個癒症跟受刑人的一個處遇然後做一個制度性的檢討那本席這邊有鎖定兩個方向\n43783\t67153\t所以我先把相關的資訊先羅列一下本期這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究所的統計數字那麼毒品適用者在五年內的再犯率是單純監禁大概高達72%然後採取緩起訴、賦命、戒治、治療的就降到了35.6%\n68994\t86193\t所以從這邊呢可以看得出處遇模式如果不同對再犯的風險是正相關的顯著影響那另外是高齡的這個問題剛剛你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者這邊也有一些規劃那我這邊提醒一下\n87394\t91176\t在數據上高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%但是到了10年之後2023的數據突然變成了一倍高9.6%目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2700人整個10年來成長了近3倍反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重\n111147\t122836\t那剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提但是本席希望待會就更具體的能夠讓本席這邊了解在這個毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題那我想這個數字對於整個預證系統應該是還蠻有壓力的\n128921\t151362\t不管是先前我們討論的空間、超收等等可是我們從這個數據裡面其實看得出整個毒品儲育還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關矯正機關不知道我這樣講你們怎麼看法因為這個矯正機關如果對它太過度依賴的話我們會以乏代療的陰影一直籠罩著\n152003\t177219\t所以高齡受刑人重返社會的措施也有很多改善的空間所以今天我們針對如何有效的抑制還有延緩在犯跟促成社會的復歸是今天的重點所以我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討然後來看看現在的缺口在哪裡那我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向\n179206\t191682\t所以在這個部分我想要請教法務部跟衛福部如果我們以病犯的視角來看待毒品的使用者那現行的處理制度是不是有機會讓治療來做優先的一個考量\n195046\t209610\t那麼回顧整個毒品危害防治的制度設計原本這個觀察樂界跟強制樂界是一個醫療處遇的過渡手段最後的目標其實是要讓這個毒品適用者來接受醫療的這個協助\n211531\t227771\t但是呢 現況是這個觀察樂界跟強制 戒制都以矯正屬的相關機構作為主體的一個執行那整個環境還是很像這個監禁的場域那你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒制那個毒品的犯罪嗎\n228892\t255688\t那另外這個部分就來請教署長剛才雖然你們在報告有提到這個矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作那你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的這個規劃那可不可以將機構式的儲遇轉型為還起訴的中繼處手段或安置場所那這樣是不是能夠更有效的來做一些成效的評估從過去我們是否在犯\n256548\t274470\t來把它轉成調整為是否延緩再犯或者是是否完成療程用病理跟復原的觀點來做一個指標那衛福部我這邊請教的是在你們的毒防中心成癮醫療門診的量能是不是能夠足夠來承擔\n276231\t298943\t機構外儲預我知道你們剛才講到這個今年的預算也增加了不少那但是增加的這個面向是在哪裡所以地方的這個毒防中心是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態來共病狀態的這個風險進行評估跟儲預分流的這個能力那是不是請這個交政署跟衛福部\n300665\t312298\t我先總體跟您說明大的方向然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告您的具體的問題那麼我想這個行政院這個跨部會的新世代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0\n314961\t338940\t那在這個過程中呢 剛委員提出來的問題我們其實都有看到所以我們本來就有一個強化多元處理特別是委員特別點出來的這個緩起訴負面戒癮治療的成效所以我們現在新生毒品犯的這一個人口已經逐年在遞減但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略但是因為緩起訴畢竟有他的法定要件\n339600\t358020\t所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式所以我們才會強調說多元處理當然委員的意思是說這個機構處理可能效果比較不好盡量用非機構的處理但是我們要考慮到每個個案具體的狀況所以我們每一個多元的這個狀況都會並行那我們都會個別來檢討來精進那是不是也提一下衛福部\n361664\t381893\t你們合作的一個狀態然後其實最重要就是說我們怎麼從病理的一個角度來看到這些受刑人的一個問題跟做實際的一些治療對我們都有這個在每一個多元的處理裡面都必須要來跟衛福部跟他們所屬的醫療的專業來做合作那是不是細節部分我來請兩位署長來跟委員做進一步說明\n383694\t405707\t報告委員所謂的毒品犯是病犯他是犯人的同時也是病人所以在我們早期我們有跟像介治所就跟療養院來合作然後來發展本土化的介治模式然後在監獄這一端我們有所謂的科學實證\n407128\t432075\t的毒品患處意計畫那至於我們跟衛福部其實在行政院那種跨部會合作裡面我們也都有包括以前的政務委員做一些指示我們會把相關的可能機構處意慢慢會轉向到社區處意包括委員有提到緩起訴 確實他的效果會比較好\n434738\t446575\t是不是大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點然後看是不是衛福部這邊可以回答本席剛才所提的一個內容的重點\n454574\t475218\t陳盧委員提到我們都很認同藥營者應該要有一些醫療的介入所以長期以來我們大概有兩個方向一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作把醫療介營的服務導入到這個監所裡頭所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭就需要那第二個是出獄之後\n476938\t496922\t出獄之後過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用賦命的方式或者是處獄的方式在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務本席這邊可不可以跟您請教目前你們在針對各個不同的毒品的施用形態有沒有比較細節的區分來做對受刑人的處理\n500143\t520644\t我們現在大概分成兩類啦 一種就是所謂的減害計畫就是用這個美沙通或者是哪路送對於這個鴉片類的這個成癮者的我們叫做減害減害的這個藥引治療 這是一類那另外的話就是用行為治療 那個都是在這個醫療機構來提供服務\n522125\t545055\t所以看起來是大的方向但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態有一些調整或者是補強喔 有沒有當然也會根據它的這個藥引的主要的那個成分會有不同剛剛講的這個減害計畫主要是針對鴉片類的那還有其他的有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種這個\n547997\t571891\t我們叫替代療法 減害替代療法而是要直接介治的也有不同的所以本席這邊跟你們提醒就是各種藥引有不同的一個狀態所以如果你們說經費變多的話那應該在這個部分處理得再更精緻一點這個是本席針對我們不要以法代療能夠把它真正當一個病理的脈絡來看\n573272\t588986\t可能可以在效果上更為精進接下來本席這邊提到要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口我們知道大概今年我們已經邁向了高齡社會依據國際的經驗每日都已經針對高齡受刑人\n595391\t617686\t設置專責的監獄或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區因為我們知道高齡人口會碰到適應困難如果關寡的受刑者他沒有子女來撫養然後中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場所以本席這邊想要了解目前我們在監獄\n619387\t645384\t有沒有對高齡有專責的監獄那其次呢是那至少監獄裡面高齡區的設置狀況現況是如何那有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設寓所的這個標準規劃因為這個是我們不可能逃避的一個問題也是寓所的一個新的挑戰那這個部分不知道法務部這邊來目前做的怎麼樣呢\n646344\t672675\t報告委員我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長春工廠就是收容這些高齡的受刑人再給他這個工廠比如這個工廠可能對他就萬一要設在一樓或是這個動線比較好的地方兼顧到他的安全\n672995\t696671\t主講這邊提到的是這個工廠上回我們召委帶我們去參觀的這個就是參訪的這個寓所那我們也看到這個所謂的工廠的這個部分但是您現在講的是對高齡人這個工廠比較開放性的一個空間但是對於高齡人在寓所裡面的這個整個生活的空間是不是這個部分也應該納入一個專區的一個思維來處理\n700914\t717432\t因為基本上每日都已經有這樣子的一個做法那高齡者在生活上也可能在跟其他受刑人的生活節奏會有一些比較大的落差所以這點是很需要去做處理跟面對的\n717972\t731139\t是 所以跟委員報告我們有所謂的樂齡計劃在115年我們爭取2400萬那116年我們爭取到1400萬因為115年它可能相關的府紀已經採購了所以在116年就少掉了1000萬我們也包括高雲壽行等的指引我講比較直接一點啦\n746568\t770204\t是不是可以好好的考量在寓所裡面設定高齡的專區不管是這個在所謂的工廠比較開放性的空間跟生活面的這個空間或者是未來我們可以再仿效這些已開發就是已開發國家他們的做法然後在寓所裡面大家針對空間針對高齡者的行為行動去做一個分隔的這個處理\n771825\t798837\t這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理我們可以參考日本啦日本它有高齡專區包括說它的工廠所以我們至少先從高齡專區開始嘛我們知道高齡大家都沒有那個高齡的經驗但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的這個生活節奏跟行為面確實是而且現在數量又變得比較多所以確實是要提早來做一些處理\n799997\t822290\t這是本席很直接的一個建議那未來我也會針對這個部分來瞭解寓所在每一年的這個微型的調整跟中長期的一個計畫好不好報告委員是在日本的尾道建議他有收了60歲以上的有慢性病的受診人那重點就是有希望在台灣你們這個部分可以列入比較具體的考量好不好\n822990\t838566\t他可能有一些胡踢工廠有一些相關的適合你講的是一些高齡的設施你講的是高齡的設施但是我講的是整個高齡受刑人的這個部分我們會再來研議好 謝謝所以注意一下高齡者的生活面\n839227\t855462\t那最後本席這邊了解一下就是說在這個矯正署跟對不起法務部相關的這個單位跟衛福部的一個合作的相關的這個人力資源和這個薪資所以現在我們\n856383\t870951\t在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療這很重要的那剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有這個心理師、社工師的一個專業介入但是目前應該就本席這邊所看到的數據在專業服務上\n873072\t878656\t有一些不足那最主要的就是說受刑人處於專業的這個失資的終點目前還沿用十年前十幾年前2012的標準那這個標準是低於市場行情的而導致呢矯正機關沒有辦法\n889022\t914911\t吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師社工師或醫師的長期投入那麼署長矯正署是不是有盤點然後跟檢討整個的費用標準那對衛福部這個部分本席有針對毒品精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處於模式那如何將這種預防性的福利\n916292\t928748\t導入矯正場域讓高風險的族群在出域以後也能夠進入社區還有接受身心照護的這個體系那這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答\n931084\t952053\t有就告訴本席現在在做的那如果沒有你們在中長期的計畫有什麼樣子的一個想法跟委員報告這個確實矯正機關訂的是比較低啦如果是我們衛福部的計畫進去的那麼醫師的部分三個小時算一節的話是六千啦其他的醫師人員進去終點會是兩千確實是\n955014\t979789\t是有點低嘛對不對所以我們就光看數據2012到現在那整個物價調整多少那如果我們要真正能夠找到能解決問題的相關人等是不是在薪資的部分法務部這邊應該來做一個整體的考量跟檢討嗎因為這有點細節我們回去盤點一下是不是哪些人會適用這個表因為剛剛石署長也有講到說這個如果是他們的計畫不是照這個表領\n980669\t986692\t因為他們相關在這個部分比較專業所以我這邊提醒我們這邊來盤點一下我們目前的這個表適用狀況然後我們會來檢討你們如果盤點完之後是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席這邊也知道你們兩兆可不可以多加在這個部分多一些對口\n1004141\t1027349\t然後更具體的為中長期的計畫來實施比較真的跟社會目前的脈絡現狀符合的一些方法我們其實都緊密在聯繫謝謝委員的關心謝謝好的謝謝那我最後只提醒一件事你們也不用回應了那本席要為立法院的其他同仁目前遇到的這個問題去敦促法務部你們應該依法秉公處理\n1029810\t1049664\t那是不是檢察官可以在不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能檢察官都應該要展開調查那最近呢大家在這個所謂罷免的這個部分有許多看到許多連署份數的這個無效的這個連署份數\n1053226\t1067583\t那如果被很多人質疑的話那是不是法務部這邊應該秉公處理不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查而不是只有接受到中選會的這個通知才辦好不好 這是本席的一個提醒好嗎好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 莊委我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請我們法務部次長或署長就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好黃次長跟周署長好的\n那今天衛福部也有我們署長這邊來代表所以有一些問題我會跟您請教所以我們今天是先針對這個癒症跟受刑人的一個處遇然後做一個制度性的檢討那本席這邊有鎖定兩個方向\n所以我先把相關的資訊先羅列一下本期這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究所的統計數字那麼毒品適用者在五年內的再犯率是單純監禁大概高達72%然後採取緩起訴、賦命、戒治、治療的就降到了35.6%\n所以從這邊呢可以看得出處遇模式如果不同對再犯的風險是正相關的顯著影響那另外是高齡的這個問題剛剛你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者這邊也有一些規劃那我這邊提醒一下\n在數據上高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%但是到了10年之後2023的數據突然變成了一倍高9.6%目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2700人整個10年來成長了近3倍反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重\n那剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提但是本席希望待會就更具體的能夠讓本席這邊了解在這個毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題那我想這個數字對於整個預證系統應該是還蠻有壓力的\n不管是先前我們討論的空間、超收等等可是我們從這個數據裡面其實看得出整個毒品儲育還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關矯正機關不知道我這樣講你們怎麼看法因為這個矯正機關如果對它太過度依賴的話我們會以乏代療的陰影一直籠罩著\n所以高齡受刑人重返社會的措施也有很多改善的空間所以今天我們針對如何有效的抑制還有延緩在犯跟促成社會的復歸是今天的重點所以我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討然後來看看現在的缺口在哪裡那我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向\n所以在這個部分我想要請教法務部跟衛福部如果我們以病犯的視角來看待毒品的使用者那現行的處理制度是不是有機會讓治療來做優先的一個考量\n那麼回顧整個毒品危害防治的制度設計原本這個觀察樂界跟強制樂界是一個醫療處遇的過渡手段最後的目標其實是要讓這個毒品適用者來接受醫療的這個協助\n但是呢 現況是這個觀察樂界跟強制 戒制都以矯正屬的相關機構作為主體的一個執行那整個環境還是很像這個監禁的場域那你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒制那個毒品的犯罪嗎\n那另外這個部分就來請教署長剛才雖然你們在報告有提到這個矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作那你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的這個規劃那可不可以將機構式的儲遇轉型為還起訴的中繼處手段或安置場所那這樣是不是能夠更有效的來做一些成效的評估從過去我們是否在犯\n來把它轉成調整為是否延緩再犯或者是是否完成療程用病理跟復原的觀點來做一個指標那衛福部我這邊請教的是在你們的毒防中心成癮醫療門診的量能是不是能夠足夠來承擔\n機構外儲預我知道你們剛才講到這個今年的預算也增加了不少那但是增加的這個面向是在哪裡所以地方的這個毒防中心是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態來共病狀態的這個風險進行評估跟儲預分流的這個能力那是不是請這個交政署跟衛福部\n我先總體跟您說明大的方向然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告您的具體的問題那麼我想這個行政院這個跨部會的新世代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0\n那在這個過程中呢 剛委員提出來的問題我們其實都有看到所以我們本來就有一個強化多元處理特別是委員特別點出來的這個緩起訴負面戒癮治療的成效所以我們現在新生毒品犯的這一個人口已經逐年在遞減但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略但是因為緩起訴畢竟有他的法定要件\n所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式所以我們才會強調說多元處理當然委員的意思是說這個機構處理可能效果比較不好盡量用非機構的處理但是我們要考慮到每個個案具體的狀況所以我們每一個多元的這個狀況都會並行那我們都會個別來檢討來精進那是不是也提一下衛福部\n你們合作的一個狀態然後其實最重要就是說我們怎麼從病理的一個角度來看到這些受刑人的一個問題跟做實際的一些治療對我們都有這個在每一個多元的處理裡面都必須要來跟衛福部跟他們所屬的醫療的專業來做合作那是不是細節部分我來請兩位署長來跟委員做進一步說明\n報告委員所謂的毒品犯是病犯他是犯人的同時也是病人所以在我們早期我們有跟像介治所就跟療養院來合作然後來發展本土化的介治模式然後在監獄這一端我們有所謂的科學實證\n的毒品患處意計畫那至於我們跟衛福部其實在行政院那種跨部會合作裡面我們也都有包括以前的政務委員做一些指示我們會把相關的可能機構處意慢慢會轉向到社區處意包括委員有提到緩起訴 確實他的效果會比較好\n是不是大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點然後看是不是衛福部這邊可以回答本席剛才所提的一個內容的重點\n陳盧委員提到我們都很認同藥營者應該要有一些醫療的介入所以長期以來我們大概有兩個方向一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作把醫療介營的服務導入到這個監所裡頭所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭就需要那第二個是出獄之後\n出獄之後過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用賦命的方式或者是處獄的方式在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務本席這邊可不可以跟您請教目前你們在針對各個不同的毒品的施用形態有沒有比較細節的區分來做對受刑人的處理\n我們現在大概分成兩類啦 一種就是所謂的減害計畫就是用這個美沙通或者是哪路送對於這個鴉片類的這個成癮者的我們叫做減害減害的這個藥引治療 這是一類那另外的話就是用行為治療 那個都是在這個醫療機構來提供服務\n所以看起來是大的方向但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態有一些調整或者是補強喔 有沒有當然也會根據它的這個藥引的主要的那個成分會有不同剛剛講的這個減害計畫主要是針對鴉片類的那還有其他的有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種這個\n我們叫替代療法 減害替代療法而是要直接介治的也有不同的所以本席這邊跟你們提醒就是各種藥引有不同的一個狀態所以如果你們說經費變多的話那應該在這個部分處理得再更精緻一點這個是本席針對我們不要以法代療能夠把它真正當一個病理的脈絡來看\n可能可以在效果上更為精進接下來本席這邊提到要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口我們知道大概今年我們已經邁向了高齡社會依據國際的經驗每日都已經針對高齡受刑人\n設置專責的監獄或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區因為我們知道高齡人口會碰到適應困難如果關寡的受刑者他沒有子女來撫養然後中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場所以本席這邊想要了解目前我們在監獄\n有沒有對高齡有專責的監獄那其次呢是那至少監獄裡面高齡區的設置狀況現況是如何那有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設寓所的這個標準規劃因為這個是我們不可能逃避的一個問題也是寓所的一個新的挑戰那這個部分不知道法務部這邊來目前做的怎麼樣呢\n報告委員我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長春工廠就是收容這些高齡的受刑人再給他這個工廠比如這個工廠可能對他就萬一要設在一樓或是這個動線比較好的地方兼顧到他的安全\n主講這邊提到的是這個工廠上回我們召委帶我們去參觀的這個就是參訪的這個寓所那我們也看到這個所謂的工廠的這個部分但是您現在講的是對高齡人這個工廠比較開放性的一個空間但是對於高齡人在寓所裡面的這個整個生活的空間是不是這個部分也應該納入一個專區的一個思維來處理\n因為基本上每日都已經有這樣子的一個做法那高齡者在生活上也可能在跟其他受刑人的生活節奏會有一些比較大的落差所以這點是很需要去做處理跟面對的\n是 所以跟委員報告我們有所謂的樂齡計劃在115年我們爭取2400萬那116年我們爭取到1400萬因為115年它可能相關的府紀已經採購了所以在116年就少掉了1000萬我們也包括高雲壽行等的指引我講比較直接一點啦\n是不是可以好好的考量在寓所裡面設定高齡的專區不管是這個在所謂的工廠比較開放性的空間跟生活面的這個空間或者是未來我們可以再仿效這些已開發就是已開發國家他們的做法然後在寓所裡面大家針對空間針對高齡者的行為行動去做一個分隔的這個處理\n這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理我們可以參考日本啦日本它有高齡專區包括說它的工廠所以我們至少先從高齡專區開始嘛我們知道高齡大家都沒有那個高齡的經驗但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的這個生活節奏跟行為面確實是而且現在數量又變得比較多所以確實是要提早來做一些處理\n這是本席很直接的一個建議那未來我也會針對這個部分來瞭解寓所在每一年的這個微型的調整跟中長期的一個計畫好不好報告委員是在日本的尾道建議他有收了60歲以上的有慢性病的受診人那重點就是有希望在台灣你們這個部分可以列入比較具體的考量好不好\n他可能有一些胡踢工廠有一些相關的適合你講的是一些高齡的設施你講的是高齡的設施但是我講的是整個高齡受刑人的這個部分我們會再來研議好 謝謝所以注意一下高齡者的生活面\n那最後本席這邊了解一下就是說在這個矯正署跟對不起法務部相關的這個單位跟衛福部的一個合作的相關的這個人力資源和這個薪資所以現在我們\n在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療這很重要的那剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有這個心理師、社工師的一個專業介入但是目前應該就本席這邊所看到的數據在專業服務上\n有一些不足那最主要的就是說受刑人處於專業的這個失資的終點目前還沿用十年前十幾年前2012的標準那這個標準是低於市場行情的而導致呢矯正機關沒有辦法\n吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師社工師或醫師的長期投入那麼署長矯正署是不是有盤點然後跟檢討整個的費用標準那對衛福部這個部分本席有針對毒品精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處於模式那如何將這種預防性的福利\n導入矯正場域讓高風險的族群在出域以後也能夠進入社區還有接受身心照護的這個體系那這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答\n有就告訴本席現在在做的那如果沒有你們在中長期的計畫有什麼樣子的一個想法跟委員報告這個確實矯正機關訂的是比較低啦如果是我們衛福部的計畫進去的那麼醫師的部分三個小時算一節的話是六千啦其他的醫師人員進去終點會是兩千確實是\n是有點低嘛對不對所以我們就光看數據2012到現在那整個物價調整多少那如果我們要真正能夠找到能解決問題的相關人等是不是在薪資的部分法務部這邊應該來做一個整體的考量跟檢討嗎因為這有點細節我們回去盤點一下是不是哪些人會適用這個表因為剛剛石署長也有講到說這個如果是他們的計畫不是照這個表領\n因為他們相關在這個部分比較專業所以我這邊提醒我們這邊來盤點一下我們目前的這個表適用狀況然後我們會來檢討你們如果盤點完之後是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席這邊也知道你們兩兆可不可以多加在這個部分多一些對口\n然後更具體的為中長期的計畫來實施比較真的跟社會目前的脈絡現狀符合的一些方法我們其實都緊密在聯繫謝謝委員的關心謝謝好的謝謝那我最後只提醒一件事你們也不用回應了那本席要為立法院的其他同仁目前遇到的這個問題去敦促法務部你們應該依法秉公處理\n那是不是檢察官可以在不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能檢察官都應該要展開調查那最近呢大家在這個所謂罷免的這個部分有許多看到許多連署份數的這個無效的這個連署份數\n那如果被很多人質疑的話那是不是法務部這邊應該秉公處理不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查而不是只有接受到中選會的這個通知才辦好不好 這是本席的一個提醒好嗎好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.790 --> 00:26.311\n好莊委我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請我們法務部次長或署長就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好黃次長跟周署長好的\n\n00:27.065 --> 00:41.821\n那今天衛福部也有我們署長這邊來代表所以有一些問題我會跟您請教所以我們今天是先針對這個癒症跟受刑人的一個處遇然後做一個制度性的檢討那本席這邊有鎖定兩個方向\n\n00:43.783 --> 01:07.153\n所以我先把相關的資訊先羅列一下本期這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究所的統計數字那麼毒品適用者在五年內的再犯率是單純監禁大概高達72%然後採取緩起訴、賦命、戒治、治療的就降到了35.6%\n\n01:08.994 --> 01:26.193\n所以從這邊呢可以看得出處遇模式如果不同對再犯的風險是正相關的顯著影響那另外是高齡的這個問題剛剛你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者這邊也有一些規劃那我這邊提醒一下\n\n01:27.394 --> 01:31.176\n在數據上高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%但是到了10年之後2023的數據突然變成了一倍高9.6%目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2700人整個10年來成長了近3倍反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重\n\n01:51.147 --> 02:02.836\n那剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提但是本席希望待會就更具體的能夠讓本席這邊了解在這個毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題那我想這個數字對於整個預證系統應該是還蠻有壓力的\n\n02:08.921 --> 02:31.362\n不管是先前我們討論的空間、超收等等可是我們從這個數據裡面其實看得出整個毒品儲育還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關矯正機關不知道我這樣講你們怎麼看法因為這個矯正機關如果對它太過度依賴的話我們會以乏代療的陰影一直籠罩著\n\n02:32.003 --> 02:57.219\n所以高齡受刑人重返社會的措施也有很多改善的空間所以今天我們針對如何有效的抑制還有延緩在犯跟促成社會的復歸是今天的重點所以我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討然後來看看現在的缺口在哪裡那我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向\n\n02:59.206 --> 03:11.682\n所以在這個部分我想要請教法務部跟衛福部如果我們以病犯的視角來看待毒品的使用者那現行的處理制度是不是有機會讓治療來做優先的一個考量\n\n03:15.046 --> 03:29.610\n那麼回顧整個毒品危害防治的制度設計原本這個觀察樂界跟強制樂界是一個醫療處遇的過渡手段最後的目標其實是要讓這個毒品適用者來接受醫療的這個協助\n\n03:31.531 --> 03:47.771\n但是呢現況是這個觀察樂界跟強制戒制都以矯正屬的相關機構作為主體的一個執行那整個環境還是很像這個監禁的場域那你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒制那個毒品的犯罪嗎\n\n03:48.892 --> 04:15.688\n那另外這個部分就來請教署長剛才雖然你們在報告有提到這個矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作那你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的這個規劃那可不可以將機構式的儲遇轉型為還起訴的中繼處手段或安置場所那這樣是不是能夠更有效的來做一些成效的評估從過去我們是否在犯\n\n04:16.548 --> 04:34.470\n來把它轉成調整為是否延緩再犯或者是是否完成療程用病理跟復原的觀點來做一個指標那衛福部我這邊請教的是在你們的毒防中心成癮醫療門診的量能是不是能夠足夠來承擔\n\n04:36.231 --> 04:58.943\n機構外儲預我知道你們剛才講到這個今年的預算也增加了不少那但是增加的這個面向是在哪裡所以地方的這個毒防中心是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態來共病狀態的這個風險進行評估跟儲預分流的這個能力那是不是請這個交政署跟衛福部\n\n05:00.665 --> 05:12.298\n我先總體跟您說明大的方向然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告您的具體的問題那麼我想這個行政院這個跨部會的新世代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0\n\n05:14.961 --> 05:38.940\n那在這個過程中呢剛委員提出來的問題我們其實都有看到所以我們本來就有一個強化多元處理特別是委員特別點出來的這個緩起訴負面戒癮治療的成效所以我們現在新生毒品犯的這一個人口已經逐年在遞減但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略但是因為緩起訴畢竟有他的法定要件\n\n05:39.600 --> 05:58.020\n所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式所以我們才會強調說多元處理當然委員的意思是說這個機構處理可能效果比較不好盡量用非機構的處理但是我們要考慮到每個個案具體的狀況所以我們每一個多元的這個狀況都會並行那我們都會個別來檢討來精進那是不是也提一下衛福部\n\n06:01.664 --> 06:21.893\n你們合作的一個狀態然後其實最重要就是說我們怎麼從病理的一個角度來看到這些受刑人的一個問題跟做實際的一些治療對我們都有這個在每一個多元的處理裡面都必須要來跟衛福部跟他們所屬的醫療的專業來做合作那是不是細節部分我來請兩位署長來跟委員做進一步說明\n\n06:23.694 --> 06:45.707\n報告委員所謂的毒品犯是病犯他是犯人的同時也是病人所以在我們早期我們有跟像介治所就跟療養院來合作然後來發展本土化的介治模式然後在監獄這一端我們有所謂的科學實證\n\n06:47.128 --> 07:12.075\n的毒品患處意計畫那至於我們跟衛福部其實在行政院那種跨部會合作裡面我們也都有包括以前的政務委員做一些指示我們會把相關的可能機構處意慢慢會轉向到社區處意包括委員有提到緩起訴確實他的效果會比較好\n\n07:14.738 --> 07:26.575\n是不是大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點然後看是不是衛福部這邊可以回答本席剛才所提的一個內容的重點\n\n07:34.574 --> 07:55.218\n陳盧委員提到我們都很認同藥營者應該要有一些醫療的介入所以長期以來我們大概有兩個方向一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作把醫療介營的服務導入到這個監所裡頭所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭就需要那第二個是出獄之後\n\n07:56.938 --> 08:16.922\n出獄之後過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用賦命的方式或者是處獄的方式在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務本席這邊可不可以跟您請教目前你們在針對各個不同的毒品的施用形態有沒有比較細節的區分來做對受刑人的處理\n\n08:20.143 --> 08:40.644\n我們現在大概分成兩類啦一種就是所謂的減害計畫就是用這個美沙通或者是哪路送對於這個鴉片類的這個成癮者的我們叫做減害減害的這個藥引治療這是一類那另外的話就是用行為治療那個都是在這個醫療機構來提供服務\n\n08:42.125 --> 09:05.055\n所以看起來是大的方向但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態有一些調整或者是補強喔有沒有當然也會根據它的這個藥引的主要的那個成分會有不同剛剛講的這個減害計畫主要是針對鴉片類的那還有其他的有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種這個\n\n09:07.997 --> 09:31.891\n我們叫替代療法減害替代療法而是要直接介治的也有不同的所以本席這邊跟你們提醒就是各種藥引有不同的一個狀態所以如果你們說經費變多的話那應該在這個部分處理得再更精緻一點這個是本席針對我們不要以法代療能夠把它真正當一個病理的脈絡來看\n\n09:33.272 --> 09:48.986\n可能可以在效果上更為精進接下來本席這邊提到要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口我們知道大概今年我們已經邁向了高齡社會依據國際的經驗每日都已經針對高齡受刑人\n\n09:55.391 --> 10:17.686\n設置專責的監獄或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區因為我們知道高齡人口會碰到適應困難如果關寡的受刑者他沒有子女來撫養然後中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場所以本席這邊想要了解目前我們在監獄\n\n10:19.387 --> 10:45.384\n有沒有對高齡有專責的監獄那其次呢是那至少監獄裡面高齡區的設置狀況現況是如何那有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設寓所的這個標準規劃因為這個是我們不可能逃避的一個問題也是寓所的一個新的挑戰那這個部分不知道法務部這邊來目前做的怎麼樣呢\n\n10:46.344 --> 11:12.675\n報告委員我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長春工廠就是收容這些高齡的受刑人再給他這個工廠比如這個工廠可能對他就萬一要設在一樓或是這個動線比較好的地方兼顧到他的安全\n\n11:12.995 --> 11:36.671\n主講這邊提到的是這個工廠上回我們召委帶我們去參觀的這個就是參訪的這個寓所那我們也看到這個所謂的工廠的這個部分但是您現在講的是對高齡人這個工廠比較開放性的一個空間但是對於高齡人在寓所裡面的這個整個生活的空間是不是這個部分也應該納入一個專區的一個思維來處理\n\n11:40.914 --> 11:57.432\n因為基本上每日都已經有這樣子的一個做法那高齡者在生活上也可能在跟其他受刑人的生活節奏會有一些比較大的落差所以這點是很需要去做處理跟面對的\n\n11:57.972 --> 12:11.139\n是所以跟委員報告我們有所謂的樂齡計劃在115年我們爭取2400萬那116年我們爭取到1400萬因為115年它可能相關的府紀已經採購了所以在116年就少掉了1000萬我們也包括高雲壽行等的指引我講比較直接一點啦\n\n12:26.568 --> 12:50.204\n是不是可以好好的考量在寓所裡面設定高齡的專區不管是這個在所謂的工廠比較開放性的空間跟生活面的這個空間或者是未來我們可以再仿效這些已開發就是已開發國家他們的做法然後在寓所裡面大家針對空間針對高齡者的行為行動去做一個分隔的這個處理\n\n12:51.825 --> 13:18.837\n這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理我們可以參考日本啦日本它有高齡專區包括說它的工廠所以我們至少先從高齡專區開始嘛我們知道高齡大家都沒有那個高齡的經驗但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的這個生活節奏跟行為面確實是而且現在數量又變得比較多所以確實是要提早來做一些處理\n\n13:19.997 --> 13:42.290\n這是本席很直接的一個建議那未來我也會針對這個部分來瞭解寓所在每一年的這個微型的調整跟中長期的一個計畫好不好報告委員是在日本的尾道建議他有收了60歲以上的有慢性病的受診人那重點就是有希望在台灣你們這個部分可以列入比較具體的考量好不好\n\n13:42.990 --> 13:58.566\n他可能有一些胡踢工廠有一些相關的適合你講的是一些高齡的設施你講的是高齡的設施但是我講的是整個高齡受刑人的這個部分我們會再來研議好謝謝所以注意一下高齡者的生活面\n\n13:59.227 --> 14:15.462\n那最後本席這邊了解一下就是說在這個矯正署跟對不起法務部相關的這個單位跟衛福部的一個合作的相關的這個人力資源和這個薪資所以現在我們\n\n14:16.383 --> 14:30.951\n在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療這很重要的那剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有這個心理師、社工師的一個專業介入但是目前應該就本席這邊所看到的數據在專業服務上\n\n14:33.072 --> 14:38.656\n有一些不足那最主要的就是說受刑人處於專業的這個失資的終點目前還沿用十年前十幾年前2012的標準那這個標準是低於市場行情的而導致呢矯正機關沒有辦法\n\n14:49.022 --> 15:14.911\n吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師社工師或醫師的長期投入那麼署長矯正署是不是有盤點然後跟檢討整個的費用標準那對衛福部這個部分本席有針對毒品精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處於模式那如何將這種預防性的福利\n\n15:16.292 --> 15:28.748\n導入矯正場域讓高風險的族群在出域以後也能夠進入社區還有接受身心照護的這個體系那這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答\n\n15:31.084 --> 15:52.053\n有就告訴本席現在在做的那如果沒有你們在中長期的計畫有什麼樣子的一個想法跟委員報告這個確實矯正機關訂的是比較低啦如果是我們衛福部的計畫進去的那麼醫師的部分三個小時算一節的話是六千啦其他的醫師人員進去終點會是兩千確實是\n\n15:55.014 --> 16:19.789\n是有點低嘛對不對所以我們就光看數據2012到現在那整個物價調整多少那如果我們要真正能夠找到能解決問題的相關人等是不是在薪資的部分法務部這邊應該來做一個整體的考量跟檢討嗎因為這有點細節我們回去盤點一下是不是哪些人會適用這個表因為剛剛石署長也有講到說這個如果是他們的計畫不是照這個表領\n\n16:20.669 --> 16:26.692\n因為他們相關在這個部分比較專業所以我這邊提醒我們這邊來盤點一下我們目前的這個表適用狀況然後我們會來檢討你們如果盤點完之後是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席這邊也知道你們兩兆可不可以多加在這個部分多一些對口\n\n16:44.141 --> 17:07.349\n然後更具體的為中長期的計畫來實施比較真的跟社會目前的脈絡現狀符合的一些方法我們其實都緊密在聯繫謝謝委員的關心謝謝好的謝謝那我最後只提醒一件事你們也不用回應了那本席要為立法院的其他同仁目前遇到的這個問題去敦促法務部你們應該依法秉公處理\n\n17:09.810 --> 17:29.664\n那是不是檢察官可以在不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能檢察官都應該要展開調查那最近呢大家在這個所謂罷免的這個部分有許多看到許多連署份數的這個無效的這個連署份數\n\n17:33.226 --> 17:47.583\n那如果被很多人質疑的話那是不是法務部這邊應該秉公處理不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查而不是只有接受到中選會的這個通知才辦好不好這是本席的一個提醒好嗎好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.79,"end":26.311,"text":"好 莊委我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請我們法務部次長或署長就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好黃次長跟周署長好的"},{"start":27.065,"end":41.821,"text":"那今天衛福部也有我們署長這邊來代表所以有一些問題我會跟您請教所以我們今天是先針對這個癒症跟受刑人的一個處遇然後做一個制度性的檢討那本席這邊有鎖定兩個方向"},{"start":43.783,"end":67.153,"text":"所以我先把相關的資訊先羅列一下本期這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究所的統計數字那麼毒品適用者在五年內的再犯率是單純監禁大概高達72%然後採取緩起訴、賦命、戒治、治療的就降到了35.6%"},{"start":68.994,"end":86.193,"text":"所以從這邊呢可以看得出處遇模式如果不同對再犯的風險是正相關的顯著影響那另外是高齡的這個問題剛剛你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者這邊也有一些規劃那我這邊提醒一下"},{"start":87.394,"end":91.176,"text":"在數據上高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%但是到了10年之後2023的數據突然變成了一倍高9.6%目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2700人整個10年來成長了近3倍反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重"},{"start":111.147,"end":122.836,"text":"那剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提但是本席希望待會就更具體的能夠讓本席這邊了解在這個毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題那我想這個數字對於整個預證系統應該是還蠻有壓力的"},{"start":128.921,"end":151.362,"text":"不管是先前我們討論的空間、超收等等可是我們從這個數據裡面其實看得出整個毒品儲育還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關矯正機關不知道我這樣講你們怎麼看法因為這個矯正機關如果對它太過度依賴的話我們會以乏代療的陰影一直籠罩著"},{"start":152.003,"end":177.219,"text":"所以高齡受刑人重返社會的措施也有很多改善的空間所以今天我們針對如何有效的抑制還有延緩在犯跟促成社會的復歸是今天的重點所以我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討然後來看看現在的缺口在哪裡那我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向"},{"start":179.206,"end":191.682,"text":"所以在這個部分我想要請教法務部跟衛福部如果我們以病犯的視角來看待毒品的使用者那現行的處理制度是不是有機會讓治療來做優先的一個考量"},{"start":195.046,"end":209.61,"text":"那麼回顧整個毒品危害防治的制度設計原本這個觀察樂界跟強制樂界是一個醫療處遇的過渡手段最後的目標其實是要讓這個毒品適用者來接受醫療的這個協助"},{"start":211.531,"end":227.771,"text":"但是呢 現況是這個觀察樂界跟強制 戒制都以矯正屬的相關機構作為主體的一個執行那整個環境還是很像這個監禁的場域那你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒制那個毒品的犯罪嗎"},{"start":228.892,"end":255.688,"text":"那另外這個部分就來請教署長剛才雖然你們在報告有提到這個矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作那你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的這個規劃那可不可以將機構式的儲遇轉型為還起訴的中繼處手段或安置場所那這樣是不是能夠更有效的來做一些成效的評估從過去我們是否在犯"},{"start":256.548,"end":274.47,"text":"來把它轉成調整為是否延緩再犯或者是是否完成療程用病理跟復原的觀點來做一個指標那衛福部我這邊請教的是在你們的毒防中心成癮醫療門診的量能是不是能夠足夠來承擔"},{"start":276.231,"end":298.943,"text":"機構外儲預我知道你們剛才講到這個今年的預算也增加了不少那但是增加的這個面向是在哪裡所以地方的這個毒防中心是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態來共病狀態的這個風險進行評估跟儲預分流的這個能力那是不是請這個交政署跟衛福部"},{"start":300.665,"end":312.298,"text":"我先總體跟您說明大的方向然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告您的具體的問題那麼我想這個行政院這個跨部會的新世代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0"},{"start":314.961,"end":338.94,"text":"那在這個過程中呢 剛委員提出來的問題我們其實都有看到所以我們本來就有一個強化多元處理特別是委員特別點出來的這個緩起訴負面戒癮治療的成效所以我們現在新生毒品犯的這一個人口已經逐年在遞減但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略但是因為緩起訴畢竟有他的法定要件"},{"start":339.6,"end":358.02,"text":"所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式所以我們才會強調說多元處理當然委員的意思是說這個機構處理可能效果比較不好盡量用非機構的處理但是我們要考慮到每個個案具體的狀況所以我們每一個多元的這個狀況都會並行那我們都會個別來檢討來精進那是不是也提一下衛福部"},{"start":361.664,"end":381.893,"text":"你們合作的一個狀態然後其實最重要就是說我們怎麼從病理的一個角度來看到這些受刑人的一個問題跟做實際的一些治療對我們都有這個在每一個多元的處理裡面都必須要來跟衛福部跟他們所屬的醫療的專業來做合作那是不是細節部分我來請兩位署長來跟委員做進一步說明"},{"start":383.694,"end":405.707,"text":"報告委員所謂的毒品犯是病犯他是犯人的同時也是病人所以在我們早期我們有跟像介治所就跟療養院來合作然後來發展本土化的介治模式然後在監獄這一端我們有所謂的科學實證"},{"start":407.128,"end":432.075,"text":"的毒品患處意計畫那至於我們跟衛福部其實在行政院那種跨部會合作裡面我們也都有包括以前的政務委員做一些指示我們會把相關的可能機構處意慢慢會轉向到社區處意包括委員有提到緩起訴 確實他的效果會比較好"},{"start":434.738,"end":446.575,"text":"是不是大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點然後看是不是衛福部這邊可以回答本席剛才所提的一個內容的重點"},{"start":454.574,"end":475.218,"text":"陳盧委員提到我們都很認同藥營者應該要有一些醫療的介入所以長期以來我們大概有兩個方向一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作把醫療介營的服務導入到這個監所裡頭所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭就需要那第二個是出獄之後"},{"start":476.938,"end":496.922,"text":"出獄之後過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用賦命的方式或者是處獄的方式在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務本席這邊可不可以跟您請教目前你們在針對各個不同的毒品的施用形態有沒有比較細節的區分來做對受刑人的處理"},{"start":500.143,"end":520.644,"text":"我們現在大概分成兩類啦 一種就是所謂的減害計畫就是用這個美沙通或者是哪路送對於這個鴉片類的這個成癮者的我們叫做減害減害的這個藥引治療 這是一類那另外的話就是用行為治療 那個都是在這個醫療機構來提供服務"},{"start":522.125,"end":545.055,"text":"所以看起來是大的方向但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態有一些調整或者是補強喔 有沒有當然也會根據它的這個藥引的主要的那個成分會有不同剛剛講的這個減害計畫主要是針對鴉片類的那還有其他的有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種這個"},{"start":547.997,"end":571.891,"text":"我們叫替代療法 減害替代療法而是要直接介治的也有不同的所以本席這邊跟你們提醒就是各種藥引有不同的一個狀態所以如果你們說經費變多的話那應該在這個部分處理得再更精緻一點這個是本席針對我們不要以法代療能夠把它真正當一個病理的脈絡來看"},{"start":573.272,"end":588.986,"text":"可能可以在效果上更為精進接下來本席這邊提到要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口我們知道大概今年我們已經邁向了高齡社會依據國際的經驗每日都已經針對高齡受刑人"},{"start":595.391,"end":617.686,"text":"設置專責的監獄或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區因為我們知道高齡人口會碰到適應困難如果關寡的受刑者他沒有子女來撫養然後中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場所以本席這邊想要了解目前我們在監獄"},{"start":619.387,"end":645.384,"text":"有沒有對高齡有專責的監獄那其次呢是那至少監獄裡面高齡區的設置狀況現況是如何那有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設寓所的這個標準規劃因為這個是我們不可能逃避的一個問題也是寓所的一個新的挑戰那這個部分不知道法務部這邊來目前做的怎麼樣呢"},{"start":646.344,"end":672.675,"text":"報告委員我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長春工廠就是收容這些高齡的受刑人再給他這個工廠比如這個工廠可能對他就萬一要設在一樓或是這個動線比較好的地方兼顧到他的安全"},{"start":672.995,"end":696.671,"text":"主講這邊提到的是這個工廠上回我們召委帶我們去參觀的這個就是參訪的這個寓所那我們也看到這個所謂的工廠的這個部分但是您現在講的是對高齡人這個工廠比較開放性的一個空間但是對於高齡人在寓所裡面的這個整個生活的空間是不是這個部分也應該納入一個專區的一個思維來處理"},{"start":700.914,"end":717.432,"text":"因為基本上每日都已經有這樣子的一個做法那高齡者在生活上也可能在跟其他受刑人的生活節奏會有一些比較大的落差所以這點是很需要去做處理跟面對的"},{"start":717.972,"end":731.139,"text":"是 所以跟委員報告我們有所謂的樂齡計劃在115年我們爭取2400萬那116年我們爭取到1400萬因為115年它可能相關的府紀已經採購了所以在116年就少掉了1000萬我們也包括高雲壽行等的指引我講比較直接一點啦"},{"start":746.568,"end":770.204,"text":"是不是可以好好的考量在寓所裡面設定高齡的專區不管是這個在所謂的工廠比較開放性的空間跟生活面的這個空間或者是未來我們可以再仿效這些已開發就是已開發國家他們的做法然後在寓所裡面大家針對空間針對高齡者的行為行動去做一個分隔的這個處理"},{"start":771.825,"end":798.837,"text":"這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理我們可以參考日本啦日本它有高齡專區包括說它的工廠所以我們至少先從高齡專區開始嘛我們知道高齡大家都沒有那個高齡的經驗但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的這個生活節奏跟行為面確實是而且現在數量又變得比較多所以確實是要提早來做一些處理"},{"start":799.997,"end":822.29,"text":"這是本席很直接的一個建議那未來我也會針對這個部分來瞭解寓所在每一年的這個微型的調整跟中長期的一個計畫好不好報告委員是在日本的尾道建議他有收了60歲以上的有慢性病的受診人那重點就是有希望在台灣你們這個部分可以列入比較具體的考量好不好"},{"start":822.99,"end":838.566,"text":"他可能有一些胡踢工廠有一些相關的適合你講的是一些高齡的設施你講的是高齡的設施但是我講的是整個高齡受刑人的這個部分我們會再來研議好 謝謝所以注意一下高齡者的生活面"},{"start":839.227,"end":855.462,"text":"那最後本席這邊了解一下就是說在這個矯正署跟對不起法務部相關的這個單位跟衛福部的一個合作的相關的這個人力資源和這個薪資所以現在我們"},{"start":856.383,"end":870.951,"text":"在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療這很重要的那剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有這個心理師、社工師的一個專業介入但是目前應該就本席這邊所看到的數據在專業服務上"},{"start":873.072,"end":878.656,"text":"有一些不足那最主要的就是說受刑人處於專業的這個失資的終點目前還沿用十年前十幾年前2012的標準那這個標準是低於市場行情的而導致呢矯正機關沒有辦法"},{"start":889.022,"end":914.911,"text":"吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師社工師或醫師的長期投入那麼署長矯正署是不是有盤點然後跟檢討整個的費用標準那對衛福部這個部分本席有針對毒品精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處於模式那如何將這種預防性的福利"},{"start":916.292,"end":928.748,"text":"導入矯正場域讓高風險的族群在出域以後也能夠進入社區還有接受身心照護的這個體系那這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答"},{"start":931.084,"end":952.053,"text":"有就告訴本席現在在做的那如果沒有你們在中長期的計畫有什麼樣子的一個想法跟委員報告這個確實矯正機關訂的是比較低啦如果是我們衛福部的計畫進去的那麼醫師的部分三個小時算一節的話是六千啦其他的醫師人員進去終點會是兩千確實是"},{"start":955.014,"end":979.789,"text":"是有點低嘛對不對所以我們就光看數據2012到現在那整個物價調整多少那如果我們要真正能夠找到能解決問題的相關人等是不是在薪資的部分法務部這邊應該來做一個整體的考量跟檢討嗎因為這有點細節我們回去盤點一下是不是哪些人會適用這個表因為剛剛石署長也有講到說這個如果是他們的計畫不是照這個表領"},{"start":980.669,"end":986.692,"text":"因為他們相關在這個部分比較專業所以我這邊提醒我們這邊來盤點一下我們目前的這個表適用狀況然後我們會來檢討你們如果盤點完之後是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席這邊也知道你們兩兆可不可以多加在這個部分多一些對口"},{"start":1004.141,"end":1027.349,"text":"然後更具體的為中長期的計畫來實施比較真的跟社會目前的脈絡現狀符合的一些方法我們其實都緊密在聯繫謝謝委員的關心謝謝好的謝謝那我最後只提醒一件事你們也不用回應了那本席要為立法院的其他同仁目前遇到的這個問題去敦促法務部你們應該依法秉公處理"},{"start":1029.81,"end":1049.664,"text":"那是不是檢察官可以在不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能檢察官都應該要展開調查那最近呢大家在這個所謂罷免的這個部分有許多看到許多連署份數的這個無效的這個連署份數"},{"start":1053.226,"end":1067.583,"text":"那如果被很多人質疑的話那是不是法務部這邊應該秉公處理不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查而不是只有接受到中選會的這個通知才辦好不好 這是本席的一個提醒好嗎好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時45分）召委、府院同仁大家好。我是不是先請法務部次長或署長，就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好？"],["主席：請黃次長跟周署長。"],["林委員倩綺：今天衛福部也有署長代表，所以有一些問題會跟您請教。我們今天是先針對獄政跟受刑人的處遇做一個制度性的檢討，本席有鎖定兩個方向，所以我先把相關的資訊先臚列一下。本席這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究中心的統計數字，毒品施用者5年內的再犯率，單純監禁者大概高達72%；採取緩起訴附命戒癮治療者，降到了35.6%，所以從可以看得出處遇模式如果不同，對再犯的風險是正相關的、有顯著影響。另外是高齡的問題，剛才你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者也有一些規劃。我提醒一下，在數據上，高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%，但是10年之後，到了2023的數據突然變成了1倍高有9.6%；然後目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2,700人，整個10年來成長了近3倍，反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重。剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提，但是本席希望待會更具體的能夠讓我了解在毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題。","我想這個數字，對於整個獄政系統應該是還蠻有壓力的，不管是先前我們討論的空間不足、超收等等，我們從這個數據裡面看得出，其實整個毒品處遇還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關。不曉得我這樣講，矯正機關有什麼看法？因為如果對矯正機關過度依賴的話，我們會有「以罰代療」這樣的陰影一直籠罩著，並且高齡受刑人重返社會的措施，也有很多改善的空間。所以我們針對如何有效的抑制、延緩再犯，跟促成社會的復歸，是今天的重點。因此我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討，來看看現在的缺口在哪裡，然後我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向。","所以在這個部分，我想要請教法務部跟衛福部，如果我們以病犯的視角來看待毒品的施用者，現行的處遇制度是不是有機會讓治療作為優先的考量？我們回顧整個毒品危害防制的制度設計，原本觀察勒戒跟強制勒戒是醫療處遇的過渡手段，最後的目標其實是要讓毒品施用者來接受醫療的協助，但現況是觀察勒戒跟強制戒治，都以矯正署的相關機構作為主體的執行，整個環境還是很像監禁的場域，你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒治毒品的犯罪嗎？","另外，這個部分我就來請教署長，剛才雖然你們在報告有提到矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作，你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的規劃？並且可不可以將機構內處遇轉型為緩起訴的中繼處遇手段或安置場所？這樣是不是能夠更有效地來做一些成效的評估，從過去我們是否再犯，把它轉換調整為是否延緩再犯、是否完成療程？用病理跟復原的觀點作為一個指標。","我要請教衛福部，在你們的毒防中心，成癮治療門診的量能，是不是能夠足夠來承擔機構外處遇？我知道你們剛才講到今年的預算也增加了不少，但是增加的面向是在哪裡？地方的毒防中心，是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態、共病狀態等風險進行評估與處遇分流的能力？是不是請矯正署跟衛福部回答？或是次長要回答？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，我先總體跟您說明大的方向，然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告你具體的問題。我想行政院跨部會的新世代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0，在這個過程中，剛剛委員提出來的問題，我們其實都有看到。所以我們本來就有一個強化多元處遇，尤其是委員特別點出來的緩起訴附命戒癮治療的成效，所以我們現在新生毒品犯的人口已經逐年在遞減，但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略。但是因為緩起訴畢竟有它的法定要件，所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式，所以我們才會強調多元處遇。","當然委員的意思是說，機構處遇可能效果比較不好，儘量用非機構的處遇，但是我們要回到每個個案具體的狀況，所以我們每一個多元的狀況都會並行，都會個別來檢討、來精進……"],["林委員倩綺：我是不是也聽一下衛福部跟你們合作的狀態？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們都有在合作。"],["林委員倩綺：其實最重要就是我們怎麼從病理的角度來看到這些受刑人的問題，跟做實際的一些治療。"],["黃次長世杰：對，我們在每一個多元的處遇裡面都必須要跟衛福部、跟他們所屬醫療的專業來合作。細節部分，我是不是請兩位署長跟委員做進一步說明？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，所謂的毒品犯是病犯，他是犯人的同時也是病人。所以在我們早期，像戒治所就跟療養院來合作，然後來發展本土化的戒治模式，在監獄這一端，我們有所謂的科學實證之毒品犯處遇模式計畫。至於我們跟衛福部，其實在行政院跨部會合作裡面，包括以前的政務委員都有做一些指示，我們會把相關的、可能的機構處遇，慢慢會轉向到社區處遇，包括委員有提到緩起訴，確實它的效果會比較好，法務部也積極在辦理。"],["林委員倩綺：所以本席剛才也在內容裡面跟你們建議，是不是大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點？衛福部是不是可以回答本席剛才所提內容的重點？關於你們成癮醫療的量能等等。"],["石署長崇良：誠如委員提到，我們都很認同這些藥癮者應該要有一些醫療的介入，所以長期以來，我們大概有兩個方向，一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作，把醫療戒癮的服務導入到監所裡頭，所以包含……"],["林委員倩綺：所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭……"],["石署長崇良：就需要……"],["林委員倩綺：就是剛才本席提到「以罰代療」的狀態？"],["石署長崇良：第二個是出獄之後，過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用附命的方式，或者是處遇的方式，在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務……"],["林委員倩綺：本席可不可以跟您請教，目前你們在針對各個不同毒品施用的型態，對受刑人有沒有比較細節的區分與處理？"],["石署長崇良：我們現在大概分成兩類：一種就是所謂的減害計畫，就是用Methadone或者是Naloxone，對於鴉片類成癮者，我們叫做減害藥癮治療，這是一類；另外就是用行為治療，都是在醫療機構來提供服務。"],["林委員倩綺：所以看起來是大的方向，但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態來做一些調整或者補強，有沒有？"],["石署長崇良：當然也會根據他的藥癮主要的成分會有不同，剛剛講的減害計畫，主要是針對鴉片類的，還有其他的，有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種叫做減害替代療法，而要直接戒治的也有，是不同的。"],["林委員倩綺：本席在這邊跟你們提醒，各種藥癮有不同的狀態，如果你們的經費變多的話，那應該在這個部分處理的更精緻一點，本席認為我們不要以罰代療，能夠把它真正當成一個病理的脈絡來看，可能可以在效果上更為精進。"],["石署長崇良：會。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來，本席要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口，我們知道今年已經邁向了高齡社會，依據國際的經驗，美、日都已經針對高齡受刑人設置了專責的監獄，或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區，因為高齡人口會碰到適應困難，鰥寡的受刑者沒有子女來扶養，中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場，所以本席想要了解，目前我們有沒有對高齡者設置專責的監獄？其次，監獄裡面高齡區的設置現況是如何？有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設獄所的標準規劃？這是我們不可能逃避的問題，也是獄所的一個新挑戰，這個部分不知道法務部目前做得怎麼樣？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄，但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長青工場，收容高齡的受刑人，再讓他們在工場工作，這個工場可能幾乎要設在一樓或是動線比較好的地方，兼顧到他們的安全。"],["林委員倩綺：署長這邊提到的是工場，上回我們召委帶我們去參訪的獄所，我們也看到工場的部分，您現在講的是對高齡人在工場設置比較開放性的空間，但是對於高齡人在獄所裡面的整個生活空間，這個部分是不是也應該納入一個專區的思維來處理？因為美、日都已經有這樣子的做法，高齡者在生活上可能跟其他受刑人的生活節奏有一些比較大的落差，所以這點是很需要去處理跟面對的。"],["周署長輝煌：是，跟委員報告，我們有所謂的樂齡計畫，在115年爭取了2,400萬；116年爭取到1,400萬，可能因為115年針對相關的輔具已經採購了，所以116年就少了1,000萬，包括高齡受刑人的指引都訂定了……"],["林委員倩綺：我講比較直接一點，是不是可以好好的考量在獄所裡面設立高齡專區，不管是在工場做比較開放性的空間跟生活面的空間，或者是未來我們可以仿效已開發國家的做法，在獄所裡面針對空間、針對高齡者的行為、行動去做分隔處理，這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議，我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理。"],["周署長輝煌：是，我們可以參考日本，日本有高齡專區，包括他們的工場……"],["林委員倩綺：先從高齡專區開始……"],["周署長輝煌：對。"],["林委員倩綺：大家對高齡都沒有相關的經驗，但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的生活節奏跟行為面確實是……而且現在數量又變得比較多，確實是要提早做一些處理，這是本席很直接的建議，未來我也會針對這個部分了解獄所在每一年微型的調整跟中長期的計畫，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：是，在日本的尾道監獄收容了60歲以上有慢性病的受刑人……"],["林委員倩綺：是，重點是我希望你們在臺灣可以將這個部分列入比較具體的考量……"],["周署長輝煌：他們可能設置了一些扶梯，工場有一些相關適合的……"],["林委員倩綺：你講的是高齡的設施，但我講的是整個高齡受刑人的行為面……"],["周署長輝煌：這個部分我們會再來研議。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝，所以注意一下高齡者的生活面。","最後本席想了解法務部的相關單位跟衛福部合作的人力資源和薪資，現在我們在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療，這是很重要的，剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有心理師、社工師的專業介入，但是目前就本席所看到的數據，應該在專業服務上仍有一些不足，最主要的是具有受刑人處遇專業的師資鐘點，目前還沿用十幾年前（2012年）的標準，這個標準是低於市場行情的，導致矯正機關沒有辦法吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師、社工師或醫師的長期投入。署長，矯正署是不是有盤點跟檢討整個費用標準？","對於衛福部，本席有針對毒品、精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處遇模式，如何將這種預防性的福利導入矯正場域，讓高風險的族群在出獄以後也能夠進入社區，還有接受身心照護的體系，這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答？有，就告訴本席現在在做的；如果沒有，你們中長期的計畫有什麼樣的想法？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，確實矯正機關訂定的是比較低，如果是衛福部計畫進去的，醫師的部分，3個小時算一節的話是6,000；其他醫事人員進去，鐘點費是2,000，確實是……"],["林委員倩綺：是有點低嘛，對不對？我們光看數據，從2012年到現在，整個物價調整了多少，如果我們要真正找到能夠解決問題的相關人等，在薪資的部分，法務部是不是應該來做整體的考量跟檢討？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為這有點細節，我們回去盤點一下，看哪些人適用這個表，因為剛剛石署長也有講到，如果是他們的計畫則不是照這個表領……"],["林委員倩綺：因為他們在這個部分比較專業啦！所以我這邊提醒……"],["黃次長世杰：他們有支援我們，但他們支援我們的不是照這個表……"],["林委員倩綺：對，如果從你們的管道……"],["黃次長世杰：我們這邊來盤點一下目前這個表的適用狀況，然後我們會檢討。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，你們如果盤點完之後，是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席知道？"],["黃次長世杰：好，我們再把結論跟委員報告。"],["林委員倩綺：好，兩造可不可以在這個部分多加一些對口，然後更具體的為中、長期計畫來實施，擬訂符合目前社會脈絡及現狀的一些方法。"],["黃次長世杰：我們其實都有在緊密聯繫，謝謝委員的關心。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，我最後只提醒一件事，你們也不用回應了，本席要為立法院其他同仁目前遇到的問題去敦促法務部，你們應該依法秉公處理，檢察官不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查，只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能，檢察官都應該要展開調查。最近大家在罷免的部分，有看到許多無效的連署份數，如果被很多人質疑的話，法務部是不是該秉公處理，不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查，而不是只有接受到中選會的通知才辦，好不好？這是本席的一個提醒，好嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。","接下來請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}}