{"id":162763,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a70a395a87108bfadb9483b76f331b600b1c1f5e093a47950a554a5522fe1698e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:40:13 - 09:56:08","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T09:40:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T09:56:08+08:00","duration":955,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162763","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162763","tool":"pyannote","id":"162763-pyannote"},"job_id":"3ZTJr8srb4Bv1Li2","queued_at":"2025-06-23 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\"剛我念了各住的一些資格裡邊是跟長照服務法對於照顧人員的資格的認定都有一些落差甚至名稱不同的話還影響到他們的權益所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的應該就是謹慎你們何時會針對人力資格的檢討並做整合因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 743.368, \"end\": 743.548, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"念\", \"start\": 743.548, \"end\": 743.728, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 743.728, \"end\": 743.908, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 743.908, \"end\": 744.148, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 744.148, \"end\": 744.349, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 744.349, \"end\": 744.509, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 744.509, \"end\": 744.609, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 744.609, \"end\": 745.109, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 745.109, \"end\": 746.049, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 746.049, \"end\": 747.03, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 747.03, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 759.515, \"end\": 759.795, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 759.795, \"end\": 760.276, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 760.276, \"end\": 760.436, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 760.436, \"end\": 761.256, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"謹\"}, {\"word\": \"慎\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 761.256, \"end\": 761.456, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 761.456, \"end\": 762.557, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 762.557, \"end\": 762.777, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 762.777, \"end\": 763.437, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 763.437, \"end\": 763.597, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 763.597, \"end\": 764.418, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 764.418, \"end\": 764.598, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 764.598, \"end\": 764.758, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 764.758, \"end\": 765.078, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 765.078, \"end\": 765.258, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"既\", \"start\": 765.258, \"end\": 765.438, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 765.438, \"end\": 765.798, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 765.798, \"end\": 766.038, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 766.038, \"end\": 766.158, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 766.158, \"end\": 766.378, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 766.378, \"end\": 766.498, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 766.498, \"end\": 766.599, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 766.599, \"end\": 766.719, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"走\", \"start\": 766.719, \"end\": 766.879, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 766.879, \"end\": 767.079, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 767.079, \"end\": 767.259, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 767.259, \"end\": 767.279, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"話\"}]}, {\"start\": 767.859, \"end\": 797.139, \"text\": \"那那個深藏跟長照這邊那人員的資格都已經不相容的話你們什麼時候可以去做檢討包委員我們就成為我剛剛說的我們現在目前3.0裡面會把那個長照跟深藏這邊的一個在整個服務資格還有整個這個人員部分我們來做整合但是我要強調中間的一個區別在於長照主要在生活照顧嘛那個各處是社會參與那像譬如說剛剛委員你有提到就是說他們在\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 767.859, \"end\": 768.339, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 768.339, \"end\": 768.64, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"深\", \"start\": 768.64, \"end\": 769.0, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"藏\", \"start\": 769.0, \"end\": 769.26, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 769.26, \"end\": 770.121, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 770.121, \"end\": 770.701, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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\"end\": 939.267, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 939.267, \"end\": 939.447, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 939.447, \"end\": 939.707, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 939.707, \"end\": 939.887, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 939.887, \"end\": 940.028, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 940.028, \"end\": 940.188, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 940.188, \"end\": 940.488, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"礙\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 940.488, \"end\": 940.668, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"服\", \"start\": 940.668, \"end\": 940.928, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 940.928, \"end\": 941.268, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 941.268, \"end\": 941.389, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 941.389, \"end\": 942.269, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 942.269, \"end\": 942.449, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 942.449, \"end\": 942.629, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 942.629, \"end\": 942.89, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 942.89, \"end\": 943.15, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 943.15, \"end\": 943.61, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 943.61, \"end\": 944.191, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 944.191, \"end\": 944.591, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 944.591, \"end\": 945.131, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 945.131, \"end\": 946.212, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"儕\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 946.212, \"end\": 946.452, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 946.452, \"end\": 946.632, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 946.632, \"end\": 947.073, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 947.073, \"end\": 947.593, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 947.593, \"end\": 947.813, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 947.813, \"end\": 948.193, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 948.193, \"end\": 948.213, \"score\": 0.014}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,683 --> 00:00:09,605\n主席麻煩邱部長\n\n2\n00:00:15,703 --> 00:00:36,800\n委員長部長早今天早上身心障礙團體在台北市議會召開記者會訴求什麼訴求自立生活申請應有合理的標準時數應該要評估應該要透明而且強烈的控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心為什麼這麼講\n\n3\n00:00:37,901 --> 00:01:06,718\n我今天如果事實上是一個24小時要人家全力協助的可是委員為什麼會講說那你家人為什麼不幫你處理呢那我已經家人如果要24小時照顧總是要一個喘息嘛而且甚至還提到說那你的你們為了爭取這些自己這個時數自己生存的事實上是為了成為英雄不能夠讓他得逞啊\n\n4\n00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:19,653\n免得各地的障礙者都會群起效仿部長今天如果委員會各地的委員會如果長這個樣子的話缺乏人權觀念\n\n5\n00:01:21,312 --> 00:01:50,047\n審查的門檻又高審查黑箱服務斷裂讓障礙者生活的沒尊嚴這是否符合CRPD的精神當然不符合啊那所以社會福利的提供本來就是要預計被照顧者的需求程度來給予足夠的服務不要漏接任何一個人更是不要去羞辱到所有障礙都是社會造成制度造成的可是卻有委員事實上是竟然是這樣子去羞辱到這一群\n\n6\n00:01:50,629 --> 00:02:01,099\n我們政府應該要有責任照顧的可是一直都沒有落實所以本席要問是你的資源部件緩慢到底要怎麼實現平等\n\n7\n00:02:02,125 --> 00:02:26,393\n好跟委員報告一下我們不管是在衛政或醫政方面其實國家政府都很注重而且都尤其在社政方面都站在這是一種應該有的權益那這個部分來立足點來努力其實成果我們在五月在像在日內瓦WHA也常常呈現我們社會福利的努力也得到各國的肯定我想我們對自己\n\n8\n00:02:27,494 --> 00:02:45,154\n政府的努力人民要有信心那國家的發展好中還要再求好所以如果任何的一個做得不好的我們都很謙卑的希望把它改善而身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正後10年來本法\n\n9\n00:02:46,235 --> 00:03:03,034\n那第五十條的規定的自立生活服務始終事實上是不夠的以本法的第五十條身心障礙者自立生活的相關的社區支持為例身心障礙者照顧服務支援部件計畫裡邊以家庭照顧者葬友本人為服務對象\n\n10\n00:03:04,235 --> 00:03:26,103\n補助的據點跟人事費用那提供法定服務跟創新服務所以想問部長說到今年為止身心障礙者服務機構只有266家公立的只有12家其他的是私立跟公社民營機構多數事實上是住宿型機構239家生活重建機構才7家而已福利服務中心20家那服務\n\n11\n00:03:28,386 --> 00:03:39,766\n相較之下現金補助對象是96.3萬人除了發現金跟提供住宿帳友們所得到的服務項目少之又少請問一下帳友們還可以得到什麼樣的支持\n\n12\n00:03:40,523 --> 00:04:04,325\n好我想謝謝委員提出這麼一些數據讓我們來做一個研議跟檢討是不是這個部分我請理事長幫忙回答非常感謝委員對於這個部分的一個關心我想陳副委員剛剛所提出的我們在這個部分有幾個第一個我們是最主要是在整個CRPD裡面我們最主要是社區市\n\n13\n00:04:04,905 --> 00:04:28,392\n的這一個服務我們希望能夠來擴建那這裡面我們涵蓋率我跟委員報告我們事實上是以到2028年我們的目標是達到29.02那我們到那個去年大概已經涵蓋率是24%那我們現在目前會來穩步就你剛剛說涵蓋率的問題我們現在會來趕快大概時間點會抓什麼時候為什麼因為我們去看長照跟身障事實上落差非常的大\n\n14\n00:04:30,144 --> 00:04:47,657\n所以希望你們的速度事實上是應該要快一點為什麼當下對需要生活智力資源的戰友們來說幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務不過我剛剛也提到我真的要請求你們不要讓如果今天審查的委員\n\n15\n00:04:48,502 --> 00:05:00,535\n可不可以有私雅PD的精神不是在委員會讓人家身障者在那邊會議當中15分鐘坐立難安你整個都是羞辱式的語言所以拜託一下這個我也要請我們盡早處理\n\n16\n00:05:04,179 --> 00:05:18,494\n所以這個問題當然不是只有需要各住業因為我們現在除了發現金以外各住事實上是比較實際的服務可是根據深藏團體的調查七成的藏友們獲得的各住的時數是不足的所以\n\n17\n00:05:19,395 --> 00:05:37,424\n問一下部長公共服務的評級限制了帳遊的期待本法推動10年帳遊們各項資源都缺竟然只對於各住的時數提出要求而已現在他們只期待能不能時數可以增加問題是全國提供服務的各住只有608位那獲得服務的帳遊只有1096人\n\n18\n00:05:43,187 --> 00:06:01,712\n平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務你們怎麼理解這個問題真的時數事實上是非常低可是我剛剛有提過有些人事實上是他需要24小時的人力協助加了已經付出大半的話事實上有時候要有些替代的人手可是你們的服務的時數非常的低\n\n19\n00:06:02,742 --> 00:06:16,981\n好謝謝委員,我想那個對於照顧者的照顧,也是我們未來政府很重視的就是傳息服務這個部分其實是我們未來譬如說在長照3.0也是非常重視\n\n20\n00:06:18,082 --> 00:06:43,020\n政府在這個部分可是現在長照都遠比以我們身心障礙者服務提供的更完整當然這兩者是可以並用是不是理事長要不要補充一下包委員我想三個重點第一個其實事實上台灣相較於日本日本他們是兩者你只能二者而一喔台灣是身心障礙者他也既可以使用我們長照也可以使用我們個人助理那他們的使用率我記得如果有重疊的話應該是70%\n\n21\n00:06:44,361 --> 00:07:07,814\n市長那是真的是懂得了解的人否則大部分身障者他了解的是你的身障服務的確了解的人他會身障跟我們的長照事實上是並用的可是我還是要問要到什麼時候才能落實本法第50條規定的多元服務身障障礙者照顧服務部件計畫五年的目標要產出到哪些服務項目服務人數各自要達到多少\n\n22\n00:07:09,115 --> 00:07:18,022\n現在目前有關個人助理這一塊我知道團體還有各界都非常關心那我跟委員報告在本部我們現在目前提給我們現在修訂裡面是50條之一裡面我們會增加一條專門的修正那現在我們目前現行是50條裡面現在目前是有10項嘛那個人助理事項是授權執法\n\n23\n00:07:33,914 --> 00:07:59,478\n那我們現在我們為了回應現在目前民間的一個部分我們現在是以50條之一的方式來處理那個自立生活跟各住這個部分跟委員報告好不過各住就法定規定各住需具備教保員跟訓練員跟生活服務員跟照顧服務員家庭托僱服務員或者是臨時及短期照顧服務員資格這樣多樣那\n\n24\n00:08:00,018 --> 00:08:21,256\n並且實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧身體照顧跟以家室服務部長可是根據團體調查有7%的各住是不提供外出服務的另外身體照顧跟家室服務也有不願意提供的狀況所以想問一下各住的項目各縣是不一致的話你們怎麼處理\n\n25\n00:08:22,694 --> 00:08:39,461\n我想當然要取得共識不能不同的縣市有不同的一個服務狀況這個部分我相信我們應該都有在努力有在努力的話這事實上是團體們身上團體們他們的調查不提供洗澡的22%是最多\n\n26\n00:08:39,961 --> 00:09:06,018\n最少的就是不提供外出甚至就醫有時候甚至還被拒絕所以想問說服務人員也不夠量能就沒有辦法提升個人助理的薪資中去年的確調升到每小時250塊並補助勞健保可是請問這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格的來做我們的各助的工作因為我們現在才第608位各助而已\n\n27\n00:09:06,818 --> 00:09:23,675\n那我不知道对于各住的人的提升的问题你们还有没有什么其他策略是包委员我想委员知道就是说个人助理跟长照其实事实上它的目的是不一样那个长照顾名思义主要是生活照顾是但是个人助理这边主要是社会参与\n\n28\n00:09:24,495 --> 00:09:49,082\n所以我想這個部分我們當然會以這個就是說彼此之間兩者雖然我們會以兩者之間的整合為主那這裡面會牽涉到第二個問題剛剛委員剛剛所說的各住這邊它的這個數量還有它的這一個品質雖然部分我們當然也我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA跟現薪資已經提到250的時候那有吸引到更多人嗎\n\n29\n00:09:49,642 --> 00:10:13,576\n八五委任我們當然這部分我們會來強化那我們現在目前還有一個就是說只要他受訓好像25小時就可以來擔任我們的個人助理那我想這個部分也會對於我們身心障礙者在很多的一些社會參與上面來說會有很大的一個會有很大的幫助謝謝那新北市政府呢整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照\n\n30\n00:10:14,369 --> 00:10:14,729\n所以想問部長說\n\n31\n00:10:34,649 --> 00:10:51,861\n這兩套評估制度有落差的問題上次我就有質詢過請問現在可以提出今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎因為上次已經質詢過已經現在有具體的解決方式嗎報告委員我們現在目前\n\n32\n00:10:53,786 --> 00:11:08,080\n我現在目前正在整合那個有關於身心障礙跟長照這邊我同意這邊現在目前確實有一些gap但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面身心障礙者他大概47%\n\n33\n00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:27,065\n我們主要的長照使用者其實時間障礙者的這個比例那個其實快要一半啦市長我想講的是他們評估長照跟身上的連評估同樣的人就他狀況是一樣的就評估的等級事實上不同我要請你們是解決這個問題\n\n34\n00:11:29,575 --> 00:11:51,102\n對,但是委員我想你也了解長照他要使用其實最重要是CMS嘛就是說你必須要符合disability整個失能的這一個部分你才能夠來申請但身心障礙的話他這裡面其實主要他有各個面向除了生活照顧之外另外還有其他他有包括他的整個社會參與啊還有另外像就學就醫等等這些\n\n35\n00:11:54,483 --> 00:12:22,568\n不同不同的這個層面所以這兩邊的他的整個評估的指標其實還是略略有一些不一樣可是落差非常的大是是是是那我了解那我所以我現在正在召集我現在目前社家屬這邊有關什麼時候可以去解決這個問題包圍我們現在什麼時候討論我們現在3.0也準備明年上路嘛那現在其中有幾次計畫裡面其實確實有一個部分就是有關於聲音障礙者跟長照這邊資源還有各項的一個整合整合的部分另外一個就是\n\n36\n00:12:23,368 --> 00:12:47,279\n剛我念了各住的一些資格裡邊是跟長照服務法對於照顧人員的資格的認定都有一些落差甚至名稱不同的話還影響到他們的權益所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的應該就是謹慎你們何時會針對人力資格的檢討並做整合因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話\n\n37\n00:12:47,859 --> 00:13:17,139\n那那個深藏跟長照這邊那人員的資格都已經不相容的話你們什麼時候可以去做檢討包委員我們就成為我剛剛說的我們現在目前3.0裡面會把那個長照跟深藏這邊的一個在整個服務資格還有整個這個人員部分我們來做整合但是我要強調中間的一個區別在於長照主要在生活照顧嘛那個各處是社會參與那像譬如說剛剛委員你有提到就是說他們在\n\n38\n00:13:17,939 --> 00:13:43,224\n他們的記者會那邊有提到就是說他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些那個其實還是屬於長照這邊這並不是屬於各處他要負責的工作這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下可是人員資格的話也不能落差到太大我同樣是這樣的學經歷背景跑到另外一個地方的時候就反而事實上是資格不太符合的應該如果生活照顧應該事實上是一樣的\n\n39\n00:13:44,224 --> 00:14:06,532\n那在自立生活方支持的服務底下除了各住以外事實上還有同儕支持員的服務同儕支持員跟服務員同樣支持服務具兩面性他同時上對帳友可以陪伴跟支持服務可是也因為他具有身帳的一個身份而且他零有這個工作的話可以讓他有分收入所以\n\n40\n00:14:07,592 --> 00:14:23,290\n問一下部長說這法推動10年同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化職業化甚至補助每小時上市230元的服務費而不補助勞健保的費用同儕支持員不視為是勞工你覺得這樣合理嗎\n\n41\n00:14:24,506 --> 00:14:45,196\n我想委員提的這樣的一個專業化職業化是一個很正向也應該要這樣做的我們都落實包括委員這個確實我們會來朝向這個目標這個確實也應該要把它更加的專業化的方向中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到可能要去考慮\n\n42\n00:14:46,196 --> 00:15:05,698\n然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員大概共計208人共計提供服務的時數4471小時可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時那服務量能非常低比個住還要低那你不認為這一項事上是應該要大力提升\n\n43\n00:15:06,298 --> 00:15:31,261\n量能的服務項目嗎我覺得這應該是不是你們應該接下來所以因為我認為說這一個事實上是一份職業又可以有助於戰友的就業為何勞動條件只給半套所以你趕快去做檢討然後也希望這個的人力用人應該要提升那個量次最後大家就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目還有明確定\n\n44\n00:15:32,122 --> 00:15:48,213\n各處的工作內容是什麼不會被拒絕說我可能這個外出服務就醫我不提供還要加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的做整合還有推動我們同儕資源專業化跟職業化以上麻煩\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8683\t9605\t主席麻煩邱部長\n15703\t36800\t委員長部長早今天早上身心障礙團體在台北市議會召開記者會訴求什麼 訴求自立生活申請應有合理的標準時數應該要 評估應該要透明而且強烈的控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心為什麼這麼講\n37901\t66718\t我今天如果事實上是一個24小時要人家全力協助的可是委員為什麼會講說那你家人為什麼不幫你處理呢那我已經家人如果要24小時照顧總是要一個喘息嘛而且甚至還提到說那你的你們為了爭取這些自己這個時數自己生存的事實上是為了成為英雄不能夠讓他得逞啊\n67560\t79653\t免得各地的障礙者都會群起效仿部長今天如果委員會各地的委員會如果長這個樣子的話缺乏人權觀念\n81312\t110047\t審查的門檻又高審查黑箱服務斷裂讓障礙者生活的沒尊嚴這是否符合CRPD的精神當然不符合啊那所以社會福利的提供本來就是要預計被照顧者的需求程度來給予足夠的服務不要漏接任何一個人更是不要去羞辱到所有障礙都是社會造成制度造成的可是卻有委員事實上是竟然是這樣子去羞辱到這一群\n110629\t121099\t我們政府應該要有責任照顧的可是一直都沒有落實所以本席要問是你的資源部件緩慢到底要怎麼實現平等\n122125\t146393\t好跟委員報告一下我們不管是在衛政或醫政方面其實國家政府都很注重而且都尤其在社政方面都站在這是一種應該有的權益那這個部分來立足點來努力其實成果我們在五月在像在日內瓦WHA也常常呈現我們社會福利的努力也得到各國的肯定我想我們對自己\n147494\t165154\t政府的努力 人民要有信心那國家的發展好中還要再求好所以如果任何的一個做得不好的我們都很謙卑的希望把它改善而身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正後10年來本法\n166235\t183034\t那第五十條的規定的自立生活服務始終事實上是不夠的以本法的第五十條身心障礙者自立生活的相關的社區支持為例身心障礙者照顧服務支援部件計畫裡邊以家庭照顧者 葬友本人為服務對象\n184235\t206103\t補助的據點跟人事費用那提供法定服務跟創新服務所以想問部長說到今年為止身心障礙者服務機構只有266家公立的只有12家其他的是私立跟公社民營機構多數事實上是住宿型機構239家生活重建機構才7家而已福利服務中心20家那服務\n208386\t219766\t相較之下 現金補助對象是96.3萬人除了發現金跟提供住宿 帳友們所得到的服務項目少之又少請問一下 帳友們還可以得到什麼樣的支持\n220523\t244325\t好我想謝謝委員提出這麼一些數據讓我們來做一個研議跟檢討是不是這個部分我請理事長幫忙回答非常感謝委員對於這個部分的一個關心我想陳副委員剛剛所提出的我們在這個部分有幾個第一個我們是最主要是在整個CRPD裡面我們最主要是社區市\n244905\t268392\t的這一個服務我們希望能夠來擴建那這裡面我們涵蓋率我跟委員報告我們事實上是以到2028年我們的目標是達到29.02那我們到那個去年大概已經涵蓋率是24%那我們現在目前會來穩步就你剛剛說涵蓋率的問題我們現在會來趕快大概時間點會抓什麼時候為什麼因為我們去看長照跟身障事實上落差非常的大\n270144\t287657\t所以希望你們的速度事實上是應該要快一點為什麼當下對需要生活智力資源的戰友們來說幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務不過我剛剛也提到我真的要請求你們不要讓如果今天審查的委員\n288502\t300535\t可不可以有私雅PD的精神不是在委員會讓人家身障者在那邊會議當中15分鐘坐立難安你整個都是羞辱式的語言所以拜託一下這個我也要請我們盡早處理\n304179\t318494\t所以這個問題當然不是只有需要各住業因為我們現在除了發現金以外各住事實上是比較實際的服務可是根據深藏團體的調查七成的藏友們獲得的各住的時數是不足的所以\n319395\t337424\t問一下部長 公共服務的評級限制了帳遊的期待本法推動10年 帳遊們各項資源都缺竟然只對於各住的時數提出要求而已現在他們只期待能不能時數可以增加問題是全國提供服務的各住只有608位那獲得服務的帳遊只有1096人\n343187\t361712\t平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務你們怎麼理解這個問題真的時數事實上是非常低可是我剛剛有提過有些人事實上是他需要24小時的人力協助加了已經付出大半的話事實上有時候要有些替代的人手可是你們的服務的時數非常的低\n362742\t376981\t好謝謝委員,我想那個對於照顧者的照顧,也是我們未來政府很重視的就是傳息服務這個部分其實是我們未來譬如說在長照3.0也是非常重視\n378082\t403020\t政府在這個部分可是現在長照都遠比以我們身心障礙者服務提供的更完整當然這兩者是可以並用是不是理事長要不要補充一下包委員我想三個重點第一個其實事實上台灣相較於日本日本他們是兩者你只能二者而一喔台灣是身心障礙者他也既可以使用我們長照也可以使用我們個人助理那他們的使用率我記得如果有重疊的話應該是70%\n404361\t427814\t市長那是真的是懂得了解的人 否則大部分身障者他了解的是你的身障服務的確了解的人他會身障跟我們的長照事實上是並用的可是我還是要問要到什麼時候才能落實本法第50條規定的多元服務身障障礙者照顧服務部件計畫五年的目標要產出到哪些服務項目服務人數各自要達到多少\n429115\t438022\t現在目前有關個人助理這一塊我知道團體還有各界都非常關心那我跟委員報告在本部我們現在目前提給我們現在修訂裡面是50條之一裡面我們會增加一條專門的修正那現在我們目前現行是50條裡面現在目前是有10項嘛那個人助理事項是授權執法\n453914\t479478\t那我們現在我們為了回應現在目前民間的一個部分我們現在是以50條之一的方式來處理那個自立生活跟各住這個部分跟委員報告好不過各住就法定規定各住需具備教保員跟訓練員跟生活服務員跟照顧服務員家庭托僱服務員或者是臨時及短期照顧服務員資格這樣多樣那\n480018\t501256\t並且實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧身體照顧跟以家室服務部長可是根據團體調查有7%的各住是不提供外出服務的另外身體照顧跟家室服務也有不願意提供的狀況所以想問一下各住的項目各縣是不一致的話你們怎麼處理\n502694\t519461\t我想當然要取得共識不能不同的縣市有不同的一個服務狀況這個部分我相信我們應該都有在努力有在努力的話這事實上是團體們 身上團體們他們的調查不提供洗澡的22%是最多\n519961\t546018\t最少的就是不提供外出甚至就醫有時候甚至還被拒絕所以想問說服務人員也不夠量能就沒有辦法提升個人助理的薪資中去年的確調升到每小時250塊並補助勞健保可是請問這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格的來做我們的各助的工作因為我們現在才第608位各助而已\n546818\t563675\t那我不知道对于各住的人的提升的问题你们还有没有什么其他策略是 包委员我想委员知道就是说个人助理跟长照其实事实上它的目的是不一样那个长照顾名思义主要是生活照顾是但是个人助理这边主要是社会参与\n564495\t589082\t所以我想這個部分我們當然會以這個就是說彼此之間兩者雖然我們會以兩者之間的整合為主那這裡面會牽涉到第二個問題剛剛委員剛剛所說的各住這邊它的這個數量還有它的這一個品質雖然部分我們當然也我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA跟現薪資已經提到250的時候那有吸引到更多人嗎\n589642\t613576\t八五委任我們當然這部分我們會來強化那我們現在目前還有一個就是說只要他受訓好像25小時就可以來擔任我們的個人助理那我想這個部分也會對於我們身心障礙者在很多的一些社會參與上面來說會有很大的一個會有很大的幫助 謝謝那新北市政府呢整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照\n614369\t614729\t所以想問部長說\n634649\t651861\t這兩套評估制度有落差的問題 上次我就有質詢過請問現在可以提出 今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎因為上次已經質詢過 已經現在有具體的解決方式嗎報告委員 我們現在目前\n653786\t668080\t我現在目前正在整合那個有關於身心障礙跟長照這邊我同意這邊現在目前確實有一些gap但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面身心障礙者他大概47%\n670260\t687065\t我們主要的長照使用者其實時間障礙者的這個比例那個其實快要一半啦市長我想講的是他們評估長照跟身上的連評估同樣的人就他狀況是一樣的就評估的等級事實上不同我要請你們是解決這個問題\n689575\t711102\t對,但是委員我想你也了解長照他要使用其實最重要是CMS嘛就是說你必須要符合disability整個失能的這一個部分你才能夠來申請但身心障礙的話他這裡面其實主要他有各個面向除了生活照顧之外另外還有其他他有包括他的整個社會參與啊還有另外像就學就醫等等這些\n714483\t742568\t不同不同的這個層面所以這兩邊的他的整個評估的指標其實還是略略有一些不一樣可是落差非常的大是是是是那我了解那我所以我現在正在召集我現在目前社家屬這邊有關什麼時候可以去解決這個問題包圍我們現在什麼時候討論我們現在3.0也準備明年上路嘛那現在其中有幾次計畫裡面其實確實有一個部分就是有關於聲音障礙者跟長照這邊資源還有各項的一個整合整合的部分另外一個就是\n743368\t767279\t剛我念了各住的一些資格裡邊是跟長照服務法對於照顧人員的資格的認定都有一些落差甚至名稱不同的話還影響到他們的權益所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的應該就是謹慎你們何時會針對人力資格的檢討並做整合因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話\n767859\t797139\t那那個深藏跟長照這邊那人員的資格都已經不相容的話你們什麼時候可以去做檢討包委員我們就成為我剛剛說的我們現在目前3.0裡面會把那個長照跟深藏這邊的一個在整個服務資格還有整個這個人員部分我們來做整合但是我要強調中間的一個區別在於長照主要在生活照顧嘛那個各處是社會參與那像譬如說剛剛委員你有提到就是說他們在\n797939\t823224\t他們的記者會那邊有提到就是說他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些那個其實還是屬於長照這邊這並不是屬於各處他要負責的工作這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下可是人員資格的話也不能落差到太大我同樣是這樣的學經歷背景跑到另外一個地方的時候就反而事實上是資格不太符合的應該如果生活照顧應該事實上是一樣的\n824224\t846532\t那在自立生活方支持的服務底下除了各住以外事實上還有同儕支持員的服務同儕支持員跟服務員同樣支持服務具兩面性他同時上對帳友可以陪伴跟支持服務可是也因為他具有身帳的一個身份而且他零有這個工作的話可以讓他有分收入所以\n847592\t863290\t問一下部長說這法推動10年同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化職業化甚至補助每小時上市230元的服務費而不補助勞健保的費用同儕支持員不視為是勞工你覺得這樣合理嗎\n864506\t885196\t我想委員提的這樣的一個專業化職業化是一個很正向也應該要這樣做的我們都落實包括委員這個確實我們會來朝向這個目標這個確實也應該要把它更加的專業化的方向中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到可能要去考慮\n886196\t905698\t然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員大概共計208人共計提供服務的時數4471小時可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時那服務量能非常低比個住還要低那你不認為這一項事上是應該要大力提升\n906298\t931261\t量能的服務項目嗎我覺得這應該是不是你們應該接下來所以因為我認為說這一個事實上是一份職業又可以有助於戰友的就業為何勞動條件只給半套所以你趕快去做檢討然後也希望這個的人力用人應該要提升那個量次最後大家就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目還有明確定\n932122\t948213\t各處的工作內容是什麼不會被拒絕說我可能這個外出服務就醫我不提供還要加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的做整合還有推動我們同儕資源專業化跟職業化以上麻煩\n","txt":"主席麻煩邱部長\n委員長部長早今天早上身心障礙團體在台北市議會召開記者會訴求什麼 訴求自立生活申請應有合理的標準時數應該要 評估應該要透明而且強烈的控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心為什麼這麼講\n我今天如果事實上是一個24小時要人家全力協助的可是委員為什麼會講說那你家人為什麼不幫你處理呢那我已經家人如果要24小時照顧總是要一個喘息嘛而且甚至還提到說那你的你們為了爭取這些自己這個時數自己生存的事實上是為了成為英雄不能夠讓他得逞啊\n免得各地的障礙者都會群起效仿部長今天如果委員會各地的委員會如果長這個樣子的話缺乏人權觀念\n審查的門檻又高審查黑箱服務斷裂讓障礙者生活的沒尊嚴這是否符合CRPD的精神當然不符合啊那所以社會福利的提供本來就是要預計被照顧者的需求程度來給予足夠的服務不要漏接任何一個人更是不要去羞辱到所有障礙都是社會造成制度造成的可是卻有委員事實上是竟然是這樣子去羞辱到這一群\n我們政府應該要有責任照顧的可是一直都沒有落實所以本席要問是你的資源部件緩慢到底要怎麼實現平等\n好跟委員報告一下我們不管是在衛政或醫政方面其實國家政府都很注重而且都尤其在社政方面都站在這是一種應該有的權益那這個部分來立足點來努力其實成果我們在五月在像在日內瓦WHA也常常呈現我們社會福利的努力也得到各國的肯定我想我們對自己\n政府的努力 人民要有信心那國家的發展好中還要再求好所以如果任何的一個做得不好的我們都很謙卑的希望把它改善而身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正後10年來本法\n那第五十條的規定的自立生活服務始終事實上是不夠的以本法的第五十條身心障礙者自立生活的相關的社區支持為例身心障礙者照顧服務支援部件計畫裡邊以家庭照顧者 葬友本人為服務對象\n補助的據點跟人事費用那提供法定服務跟創新服務所以想問部長說到今年為止身心障礙者服務機構只有266家公立的只有12家其他的是私立跟公社民營機構多數事實上是住宿型機構239家生活重建機構才7家而已福利服務中心20家那服務\n相較之下 現金補助對象是96.3萬人除了發現金跟提供住宿 帳友們所得到的服務項目少之又少請問一下 帳友們還可以得到什麼樣的支持\n好我想謝謝委員提出這麼一些數據讓我們來做一個研議跟檢討是不是這個部分我請理事長幫忙回答非常感謝委員對於這個部分的一個關心我想陳副委員剛剛所提出的我們在這個部分有幾個第一個我們是最主要是在整個CRPD裡面我們最主要是社區市\n的這一個服務我們希望能夠來擴建那這裡面我們涵蓋率我跟委員報告我們事實上是以到2028年我們的目標是達到29.02那我們到那個去年大概已經涵蓋率是24%那我們現在目前會來穩步就你剛剛說涵蓋率的問題我們現在會來趕快大概時間點會抓什麼時候為什麼因為我們去看長照跟身障事實上落差非常的大\n所以希望你們的速度事實上是應該要快一點為什麼當下對需要生活智力資源的戰友們來說幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務不過我剛剛也提到我真的要請求你們不要讓如果今天審查的委員\n可不可以有私雅PD的精神不是在委員會讓人家身障者在那邊會議當中15分鐘坐立難安你整個都是羞辱式的語言所以拜託一下這個我也要請我們盡早處理\n所以這個問題當然不是只有需要各住業因為我們現在除了發現金以外各住事實上是比較實際的服務可是根據深藏團體的調查七成的藏友們獲得的各住的時數是不足的所以\n問一下部長 公共服務的評級限制了帳遊的期待本法推動10年 帳遊們各項資源都缺竟然只對於各住的時數提出要求而已現在他們只期待能不能時數可以增加問題是全國提供服務的各住只有608位那獲得服務的帳遊只有1096人\n平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務你們怎麼理解這個問題真的時數事實上是非常低可是我剛剛有提過有些人事實上是他需要24小時的人力協助加了已經付出大半的話事實上有時候要有些替代的人手可是你們的服務的時數非常的低\n好謝謝委員,我想那個對於照顧者的照顧,也是我們未來政府很重視的就是傳息服務這個部分其實是我們未來譬如說在長照3.0也是非常重視\n政府在這個部分可是現在長照都遠比以我們身心障礙者服務提供的更完整當然這兩者是可以並用是不是理事長要不要補充一下包委員我想三個重點第一個其實事實上台灣相較於日本日本他們是兩者你只能二者而一喔台灣是身心障礙者他也既可以使用我們長照也可以使用我們個人助理那他們的使用率我記得如果有重疊的話應該是70%\n市長那是真的是懂得了解的人 否則大部分身障者他了解的是你的身障服務的確了解的人他會身障跟我們的長照事實上是並用的可是我還是要問要到什麼時候才能落實本法第50條規定的多元服務身障障礙者照顧服務部件計畫五年的目標要產出到哪些服務項目服務人數各自要達到多少\n現在目前有關個人助理這一塊我知道團體還有各界都非常關心那我跟委員報告在本部我們現在目前提給我們現在修訂裡面是50條之一裡面我們會增加一條專門的修正那現在我們目前現行是50條裡面現在目前是有10項嘛那個人助理事項是授權執法\n那我們現在我們為了回應現在目前民間的一個部分我們現在是以50條之一的方式來處理那個自立生活跟各住這個部分跟委員報告好不過各住就法定規定各住需具備教保員跟訓練員跟生活服務員跟照顧服務員家庭托僱服務員或者是臨時及短期照顧服務員資格這樣多樣那\n並且實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧身體照顧跟以家室服務部長可是根據團體調查有7%的各住是不提供外出服務的另外身體照顧跟家室服務也有不願意提供的狀況所以想問一下各住的項目各縣是不一致的話你們怎麼處理\n我想當然要取得共識不能不同的縣市有不同的一個服務狀況這個部分我相信我們應該都有在努力有在努力的話這事實上是團體們 身上團體們他們的調查不提供洗澡的22%是最多\n最少的就是不提供外出甚至就醫有時候甚至還被拒絕所以想問說服務人員也不夠量能就沒有辦法提升個人助理的薪資中去年的確調升到每小時250塊並補助勞健保可是請問這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格的來做我們的各助的工作因為我們現在才第608位各助而已\n那我不知道对于各住的人的提升的问题你们还有没有什么其他策略是 包委员我想委员知道就是说个人助理跟长照其实事实上它的目的是不一样那个长照顾名思义主要是生活照顾是但是个人助理这边主要是社会参与\n所以我想這個部分我們當然會以這個就是說彼此之間兩者雖然我們會以兩者之間的整合為主那這裡面會牽涉到第二個問題剛剛委員剛剛所說的各住這邊它的這個數量還有它的這一個品質雖然部分我們當然也我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA跟現薪資已經提到250的時候那有吸引到更多人嗎\n八五委任我們當然這部分我們會來強化那我們現在目前還有一個就是說只要他受訓好像25小時就可以來擔任我們的個人助理那我想這個部分也會對於我們身心障礙者在很多的一些社會參與上面來說會有很大的一個會有很大的幫助 謝謝那新北市政府呢整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照\n所以想問部長說\n這兩套評估制度有落差的問題 上次我就有質詢過請問現在可以提出 今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎因為上次已經質詢過 已經現在有具體的解決方式嗎報告委員 我們現在目前\n我現在目前正在整合那個有關於身心障礙跟長照這邊我同意這邊現在目前確實有一些gap但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面身心障礙者他大概47%\n我們主要的長照使用者其實時間障礙者的這個比例那個其實快要一半啦市長我想講的是他們評估長照跟身上的連評估同樣的人就他狀況是一樣的就評估的等級事實上不同我要請你們是解決這個問題\n對,但是委員我想你也了解長照他要使用其實最重要是CMS嘛就是說你必須要符合disability整個失能的這一個部分你才能夠來申請但身心障礙的話他這裡面其實主要他有各個面向除了生活照顧之外另外還有其他他有包括他的整個社會參與啊還有另外像就學就醫等等這些\n不同不同的這個層面所以這兩邊的他的整個評估的指標其實還是略略有一些不一樣可是落差非常的大是是是是那我了解那我所以我現在正在召集我現在目前社家屬這邊有關什麼時候可以去解決這個問題包圍我們現在什麼時候討論我們現在3.0也準備明年上路嘛那現在其中有幾次計畫裡面其實確實有一個部分就是有關於聲音障礙者跟長照這邊資源還有各項的一個整合整合的部分另外一個就是\n剛我念了各住的一些資格裡邊是跟長照服務法對於照顧人員的資格的認定都有一些落差甚至名稱不同的話還影響到他們的權益所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的應該就是謹慎你們何時會針對人力資格的檢討並做整合因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話\n那那個深藏跟長照這邊那人員的資格都已經不相容的話你們什麼時候可以去做檢討包委員我們就成為我剛剛說的我們現在目前3.0裡面會把那個長照跟深藏這邊的一個在整個服務資格還有整個這個人員部分我們來做整合但是我要強調中間的一個區別在於長照主要在生活照顧嘛那個各處是社會參與那像譬如說剛剛委員你有提到就是說他們在\n他們的記者會那邊有提到就是說他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些那個其實還是屬於長照這邊這並不是屬於各處他要負責的工作這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下可是人員資格的話也不能落差到太大我同樣是這樣的學經歷背景跑到另外一個地方的時候就反而事實上是資格不太符合的應該如果生活照顧應該事實上是一樣的\n那在自立生活方支持的服務底下除了各住以外事實上還有同儕支持員的服務同儕支持員跟服務員同樣支持服務具兩面性他同時上對帳友可以陪伴跟支持服務可是也因為他具有身帳的一個身份而且他零有這個工作的話可以讓他有分收入所以\n問一下部長說這法推動10年同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化職業化甚至補助每小時上市230元的服務費而不補助勞健保的費用同儕支持員不視為是勞工你覺得這樣合理嗎\n我想委員提的這樣的一個專業化職業化是一個很正向也應該要這樣做的我們都落實包括委員這個確實我們會來朝向這個目標這個確實也應該要把它更加的專業化的方向中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到可能要去考慮\n然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員大概共計208人共計提供服務的時數4471小時可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時那服務量能非常低比個住還要低那你不認為這一項事上是應該要大力提升\n量能的服務項目嗎我覺得這應該是不是你們應該接下來所以因為我認為說這一個事實上是一份職業又可以有助於戰友的就業為何勞動條件只給半套所以你趕快去做檢討然後也希望這個的人力用人應該要提升那個量次最後大家就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目還有明確定\n各處的工作內容是什麼不會被拒絕說我可能這個外出服務就醫我不提供還要加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的做整合還有推動我們同儕資源專業化跟職業化以上麻煩\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.683 --> 00:09.605\n主席麻煩邱部長\n\n00:15.703 --> 00:36.800\n委員長部長早今天早上身心障礙團體在台北市議會召開記者會訴求什麼訴求自立生活申請應有合理的標準時數應該要評估應該要透明而且強烈的控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心為什麼這麼講\n\n00:37.901 --> 01:06.718\n我今天如果事實上是一個24小時要人家全力協助的可是委員為什麼會講說那你家人為什麼不幫你處理呢那我已經家人如果要24小時照顧總是要一個喘息嘛而且甚至還提到說那你的你們為了爭取這些自己這個時數自己生存的事實上是為了成為英雄不能夠讓他得逞啊\n\n01:07.560 --> 01:19.653\n免得各地的障礙者都會群起效仿部長今天如果委員會各地的委員會如果長這個樣子的話缺乏人權觀念\n\n01:21.312 --> 01:50.047\n審查的門檻又高審查黑箱服務斷裂讓障礙者生活的沒尊嚴這是否符合CRPD的精神當然不符合啊那所以社會福利的提供本來就是要預計被照顧者的需求程度來給予足夠的服務不要漏接任何一個人更是不要去羞辱到所有障礙都是社會造成制度造成的可是卻有委員事實上是竟然是這樣子去羞辱到這一群\n\n01:50.629 --> 02:01.099\n我們政府應該要有責任照顧的可是一直都沒有落實所以本席要問是你的資源部件緩慢到底要怎麼實現平等\n\n02:02.125 --> 02:26.393\n好跟委員報告一下我們不管是在衛政或醫政方面其實國家政府都很注重而且都尤其在社政方面都站在這是一種應該有的權益那這個部分來立足點來努力其實成果我們在五月在像在日內瓦WHA也常常呈現我們社會福利的努力也得到各國的肯定我想我們對自己\n\n02:27.494 --> 02:45.154\n政府的努力人民要有信心那國家的發展好中還要再求好所以如果任何的一個做得不好的我們都很謙卑的希望把它改善而身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正後10年來本法\n\n02:46.235 --> 03:03.034\n那第五十條的規定的自立生活服務始終事實上是不夠的以本法的第五十條身心障礙者自立生活的相關的社區支持為例身心障礙者照顧服務支援部件計畫裡邊以家庭照顧者葬友本人為服務對象\n\n03:04.235 --> 03:26.103\n補助的據點跟人事費用那提供法定服務跟創新服務所以想問部長說到今年為止身心障礙者服務機構只有266家公立的只有12家其他的是私立跟公社民營機構多數事實上是住宿型機構239家生活重建機構才7家而已福利服務中心20家那服務\n\n03:28.386 --> 03:39.766\n相較之下現金補助對象是96.3萬人除了發現金跟提供住宿帳友們所得到的服務項目少之又少請問一下帳友們還可以得到什麼樣的支持\n\n03:40.523 --> 04:04.325\n好我想謝謝委員提出這麼一些數據讓我們來做一個研議跟檢討是不是這個部分我請理事長幫忙回答非常感謝委員對於這個部分的一個關心我想陳副委員剛剛所提出的我們在這個部分有幾個第一個我們是最主要是在整個CRPD裡面我們最主要是社區市\n\n04:04.905 --> 04:28.392\n的這一個服務我們希望能夠來擴建那這裡面我們涵蓋率我跟委員報告我們事實上是以到2028年我們的目標是達到29.02那我們到那個去年大概已經涵蓋率是24%那我們現在目前會來穩步就你剛剛說涵蓋率的問題我們現在會來趕快大概時間點會抓什麼時候為什麼因為我們去看長照跟身障事實上落差非常的大\n\n04:30.144 --> 04:47.657\n所以希望你們的速度事實上是應該要快一點為什麼當下對需要生活智力資源的戰友們來說幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務不過我剛剛也提到我真的要請求你們不要讓如果今天審查的委員\n\n04:48.502 --> 05:00.535\n可不可以有私雅PD的精神不是在委員會讓人家身障者在那邊會議當中15分鐘坐立難安你整個都是羞辱式的語言所以拜託一下這個我也要請我們盡早處理\n\n05:04.179 --> 05:18.494\n所以這個問題當然不是只有需要各住業因為我們現在除了發現金以外各住事實上是比較實際的服務可是根據深藏團體的調查七成的藏友們獲得的各住的時數是不足的所以\n\n05:19.395 --> 05:37.424\n問一下部長公共服務的評級限制了帳遊的期待本法推動10年帳遊們各項資源都缺竟然只對於各住的時數提出要求而已現在他們只期待能不能時數可以增加問題是全國提供服務的各住只有608位那獲得服務的帳遊只有1096人\n\n05:43.187 --> 06:01.712\n平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務你們怎麼理解這個問題真的時數事實上是非常低可是我剛剛有提過有些人事實上是他需要24小時的人力協助加了已經付出大半的話事實上有時候要有些替代的人手可是你們的服務的時數非常的低\n\n06:02.742 --> 06:16.981\n好謝謝委員,我想那個對於照顧者的照顧,也是我們未來政府很重視的就是傳息服務這個部分其實是我們未來譬如說在長照3.0也是非常重視\n\n06:18.082 --> 06:43.020\n政府在這個部分可是現在長照都遠比以我們身心障礙者服務提供的更完整當然這兩者是可以並用是不是理事長要不要補充一下包委員我想三個重點第一個其實事實上台灣相較於日本日本他們是兩者你只能二者而一喔台灣是身心障礙者他也既可以使用我們長照也可以使用我們個人助理那他們的使用率我記得如果有重疊的話應該是70%\n\n06:44.361 --> 07:07.814\n市長那是真的是懂得了解的人否則大部分身障者他了解的是你的身障服務的確了解的人他會身障跟我們的長照事實上是並用的可是我還是要問要到什麼時候才能落實本法第50條規定的多元服務身障障礙者照顧服務部件計畫五年的目標要產出到哪些服務項目服務人數各自要達到多少\n\n07:09.115 --> 07:18.022\n現在目前有關個人助理這一塊我知道團體還有各界都非常關心那我跟委員報告在本部我們現在目前提給我們現在修訂裡面是50條之一裡面我們會增加一條專門的修正那現在我們目前現行是50條裡面現在目前是有10項嘛那個人助理事項是授權執法\n\n07:33.914 --> 07:59.478\n那我們現在我們為了回應現在目前民間的一個部分我們現在是以50條之一的方式來處理那個自立生活跟各住這個部分跟委員報告好不過各住就法定規定各住需具備教保員跟訓練員跟生活服務員跟照顧服務員家庭托僱服務員或者是臨時及短期照顧服務員資格這樣多樣那\n\n08:00.018 --> 08:21.256\n並且實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧身體照顧跟以家室服務部長可是根據團體調查有7%的各住是不提供外出服務的另外身體照顧跟家室服務也有不願意提供的狀況所以想問一下各住的項目各縣是不一致的話你們怎麼處理\n\n08:22.694 --> 08:39.461\n我想當然要取得共識不能不同的縣市有不同的一個服務狀況這個部分我相信我們應該都有在努力有在努力的話這事實上是團體們身上團體們他們的調查不提供洗澡的22%是最多\n\n08:39.961 --> 09:06.018\n最少的就是不提供外出甚至就醫有時候甚至還被拒絕所以想問說服務人員也不夠量能就沒有辦法提升個人助理的薪資中去年的確調升到每小時250塊並補助勞健保可是請問這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格的來做我們的各助的工作因為我們現在才第608位各助而已\n\n09:06.818 --> 09:23.675\n那我不知道对于各住的人的提升的问题你们还有没有什么其他策略是包委员我想委员知道就是说个人助理跟长照其实事实上它的目的是不一样那个长照顾名思义主要是生活照顾是但是个人助理这边主要是社会参与\n\n09:24.495 --> 09:49.082\n所以我想這個部分我們當然會以這個就是說彼此之間兩者雖然我們會以兩者之間的整合為主那這裡面會牽涉到第二個問題剛剛委員剛剛所說的各住這邊它的這個數量還有它的這一個品質雖然部分我們當然也我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA跟現薪資已經提到250的時候那有吸引到更多人嗎\n\n09:49.642 --> 10:13.576\n八五委任我們當然這部分我們會來強化那我們現在目前還有一個就是說只要他受訓好像25小時就可以來擔任我們的個人助理那我想這個部分也會對於我們身心障礙者在很多的一些社會參與上面來說會有很大的一個會有很大的幫助謝謝那新北市政府呢整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照\n\n10:14.369 --> 10:14.729\n所以想問部長說\n\n10:34.649 --> 10:51.861\n這兩套評估制度有落差的問題上次我就有質詢過請問現在可以提出今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎因為上次已經質詢過已經現在有具體的解決方式嗎報告委員我們現在目前\n\n10:53.786 --> 11:08.080\n我現在目前正在整合那個有關於身心障礙跟長照這邊我同意這邊現在目前確實有一些gap但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面身心障礙者他大概47%\n\n11:10.260 --> 11:27.065\n我們主要的長照使用者其實時間障礙者的這個比例那個其實快要一半啦市長我想講的是他們評估長照跟身上的連評估同樣的人就他狀況是一樣的就評估的等級事實上不同我要請你們是解決這個問題\n\n11:29.575 --> 11:51.102\n對,但是委員我想你也了解長照他要使用其實最重要是CMS嘛就是說你必須要符合disability整個失能的這一個部分你才能夠來申請但身心障礙的話他這裡面其實主要他有各個面向除了生活照顧之外另外還有其他他有包括他的整個社會參與啊還有另外像就學就醫等等這些\n\n11:54.483 --> 12:22.568\n不同不同的這個層面所以這兩邊的他的整個評估的指標其實還是略略有一些不一樣可是落差非常的大是是是是那我了解那我所以我現在正在召集我現在目前社家屬這邊有關什麼時候可以去解決這個問題包圍我們現在什麼時候討論我們現在3.0也準備明年上路嘛那現在其中有幾次計畫裡面其實確實有一個部分就是有關於聲音障礙者跟長照這邊資源還有各項的一個整合整合的部分另外一個就是\n\n12:23.368 --> 12:47.279\n剛我念了各住的一些資格裡邊是跟長照服務法對於照顧人員的資格的認定都有一些落差甚至名稱不同的話還影響到他們的權益所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的應該就是謹慎你們何時會針對人力資格的檢討並做整合因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話\n\n12:47.859 --> 13:17.139\n那那個深藏跟長照這邊那人員的資格都已經不相容的話你們什麼時候可以去做檢討包委員我們就成為我剛剛說的我們現在目前3.0裡面會把那個長照跟深藏這邊的一個在整個服務資格還有整個這個人員部分我們來做整合但是我要強調中間的一個區別在於長照主要在生活照顧嘛那個各處是社會參與那像譬如說剛剛委員你有提到就是說他們在\n\n13:17.939 --> 13:43.224\n他們的記者會那邊有提到就是說他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些那個其實還是屬於長照這邊這並不是屬於各處他要負責的工作這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下可是人員資格的話也不能落差到太大我同樣是這樣的學經歷背景跑到另外一個地方的時候就反而事實上是資格不太符合的應該如果生活照顧應該事實上是一樣的\n\n13:44.224 --> 14:06.532\n那在自立生活方支持的服務底下除了各住以外事實上還有同儕支持員的服務同儕支持員跟服務員同樣支持服務具兩面性他同時上對帳友可以陪伴跟支持服務可是也因為他具有身帳的一個身份而且他零有這個工作的話可以讓他有分收入所以\n\n14:07.592 --> 14:23.290\n問一下部長說這法推動10年同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化職業化甚至補助每小時上市230元的服務費而不補助勞健保的費用同儕支持員不視為是勞工你覺得這樣合理嗎\n\n14:24.506 --> 14:45.196\n我想委員提的這樣的一個專業化職業化是一個很正向也應該要這樣做的我們都落實包括委員這個確實我們會來朝向這個目標這個確實也應該要把它更加的專業化的方向中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到可能要去考慮\n\n14:46.196 --> 15:05.698\n然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員大概共計208人共計提供服務的時數4471小時可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時那服務量能非常低比個住還要低那你不認為這一項事上是應該要大力提升\n\n15:06.298 --> 15:31.261\n量能的服務項目嗎我覺得這應該是不是你們應該接下來所以因為我認為說這一個事實上是一份職業又可以有助於戰友的就業為何勞動條件只給半套所以你趕快去做檢討然後也希望這個的人力用人應該要提升那個量次最後大家就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目還有明確定\n\n15:32.122 --> 15:48.213\n各處的工作內容是什麼不會被拒絕說我可能這個外出服務就醫我不提供還要加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的做整合還有推動我們同儕資源專業化跟職業化以上麻煩\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.683,"end":9.605,"text":"主席麻煩邱部長"},{"start":15.703,"end":36.8,"text":"委員長部長早今天早上身心障礙團體在台北市議會召開記者會訴求什麼 訴求自立生活申請應有合理的標準時數應該要 評估應該要透明而且強烈的控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心為什麼這麼講"},{"start":37.901,"end":66.718,"text":"我今天如果事實上是一個24小時要人家全力協助的可是委員為什麼會講說那你家人為什麼不幫你處理呢那我已經家人如果要24小時照顧總是要一個喘息嘛而且甚至還提到說那你的你們為了爭取這些自己這個時數自己生存的事實上是為了成為英雄不能夠讓他得逞啊"},{"start":67.56,"end":79.653,"text":"免得各地的障礙者都會群起效仿部長今天如果委員會各地的委員會如果長這個樣子的話缺乏人權觀念"},{"start":81.312,"end":110.047,"text":"審查的門檻又高審查黑箱服務斷裂讓障礙者生活的沒尊嚴這是否符合CRPD的精神當然不符合啊那所以社會福利的提供本來就是要預計被照顧者的需求程度來給予足夠的服務不要漏接任何一個人更是不要去羞辱到所有障礙都是社會造成制度造成的可是卻有委員事實上是竟然是這樣子去羞辱到這一群"},{"start":110.629,"end":121.099,"text":"我們政府應該要有責任照顧的可是一直都沒有落實所以本席要問是你的資源部件緩慢到底要怎麼實現平等"},{"start":122.125,"end":146.393,"text":"好跟委員報告一下我們不管是在衛政或醫政方面其實國家政府都很注重而且都尤其在社政方面都站在這是一種應該有的權益那這個部分來立足點來努力其實成果我們在五月在像在日內瓦WHA也常常呈現我們社會福利的努力也得到各國的肯定我想我們對自己"},{"start":147.494,"end":165.154,"text":"政府的努力 人民要有信心那國家的發展好中還要再求好所以如果任何的一個做得不好的我們都很謙卑的希望把它改善而身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正後10年來本法"},{"start":166.235,"end":183.034,"text":"那第五十條的規定的自立生活服務始終事實上是不夠的以本法的第五十條身心障礙者自立生活的相關的社區支持為例身心障礙者照顧服務支援部件計畫裡邊以家庭照顧者 葬友本人為服務對象"},{"start":184.235,"end":206.103,"text":"補助的據點跟人事費用那提供法定服務跟創新服務所以想問部長說到今年為止身心障礙者服務機構只有266家公立的只有12家其他的是私立跟公社民營機構多數事實上是住宿型機構239家生活重建機構才7家而已福利服務中心20家那服務"},{"start":208.386,"end":219.766,"text":"相較之下 現金補助對象是96.3萬人除了發現金跟提供住宿 帳友們所得到的服務項目少之又少請問一下 帳友們還可以得到什麼樣的支持"},{"start":220.523,"end":244.325,"text":"好我想謝謝委員提出這麼一些數據讓我們來做一個研議跟檢討是不是這個部分我請理事長幫忙回答非常感謝委員對於這個部分的一個關心我想陳副委員剛剛所提出的我們在這個部分有幾個第一個我們是最主要是在整個CRPD裡面我們最主要是社區市"},{"start":244.905,"end":268.392,"text":"的這一個服務我們希望能夠來擴建那這裡面我們涵蓋率我跟委員報告我們事實上是以到2028年我們的目標是達到29.02那我們到那個去年大概已經涵蓋率是24%那我們現在目前會來穩步就你剛剛說涵蓋率的問題我們現在會來趕快大概時間點會抓什麼時候為什麼因為我們去看長照跟身障事實上落差非常的大"},{"start":270.144,"end":287.657,"text":"所以希望你們的速度事實上是應該要快一點為什麼當下對需要生活智力資源的戰友們來說幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務不過我剛剛也提到我真的要請求你們不要讓如果今天審查的委員"},{"start":288.502,"end":300.535,"text":"可不可以有私雅PD的精神不是在委員會讓人家身障者在那邊會議當中15分鐘坐立難安你整個都是羞辱式的語言所以拜託一下這個我也要請我們盡早處理"},{"start":304.179,"end":318.494,"text":"所以這個問題當然不是只有需要各住業因為我們現在除了發現金以外各住事實上是比較實際的服務可是根據深藏團體的調查七成的藏友們獲得的各住的時數是不足的所以"},{"start":319.395,"end":337.424,"text":"問一下部長 公共服務的評級限制了帳遊的期待本法推動10年 帳遊們各項資源都缺竟然只對於各住的時數提出要求而已現在他們只期待能不能時數可以增加問題是全國提供服務的各住只有608位那獲得服務的帳遊只有1096人"},{"start":343.187,"end":361.712,"text":"平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務你們怎麼理解這個問題真的時數事實上是非常低可是我剛剛有提過有些人事實上是他需要24小時的人力協助加了已經付出大半的話事實上有時候要有些替代的人手可是你們的服務的時數非常的低"},{"start":362.742,"end":376.981,"text":"好謝謝委員,我想那個對於照顧者的照顧,也是我們未來政府很重視的就是傳息服務這個部分其實是我們未來譬如說在長照3.0也是非常重視"},{"start":378.082,"end":403.02,"text":"政府在這個部分可是現在長照都遠比以我們身心障礙者服務提供的更完整當然這兩者是可以並用是不是理事長要不要補充一下包委員我想三個重點第一個其實事實上台灣相較於日本日本他們是兩者你只能二者而一喔台灣是身心障礙者他也既可以使用我們長照也可以使用我們個人助理那他們的使用率我記得如果有重疊的話應該是70%"},{"start":404.361,"end":427.814,"text":"市長那是真的是懂得了解的人 否則大部分身障者他了解的是你的身障服務的確了解的人他會身障跟我們的長照事實上是並用的可是我還是要問要到什麼時候才能落實本法第50條規定的多元服務身障障礙者照顧服務部件計畫五年的目標要產出到哪些服務項目服務人數各自要達到多少"},{"start":429.115,"end":438.022,"text":"現在目前有關個人助理這一塊我知道團體還有各界都非常關心那我跟委員報告在本部我們現在目前提給我們現在修訂裡面是50條之一裡面我們會增加一條專門的修正那現在我們目前現行是50條裡面現在目前是有10項嘛那個人助理事項是授權執法"},{"start":453.914,"end":479.478,"text":"那我們現在我們為了回應現在目前民間的一個部分我們現在是以50條之一的方式來處理那個自立生活跟各住這個部分跟委員報告好不過各住就法定規定各住需具備教保員跟訓練員跟生活服務員跟照顧服務員家庭托僱服務員或者是臨時及短期照顧服務員資格這樣多樣那"},{"start":480.018,"end":501.256,"text":"並且實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧身體照顧跟以家室服務部長可是根據團體調查有7%的各住是不提供外出服務的另外身體照顧跟家室服務也有不願意提供的狀況所以想問一下各住的項目各縣是不一致的話你們怎麼處理"},{"start":502.694,"end":519.461,"text":"我想當然要取得共識不能不同的縣市有不同的一個服務狀況這個部分我相信我們應該都有在努力有在努力的話這事實上是團體們 身上團體們他們的調查不提供洗澡的22%是最多"},{"start":519.961,"end":546.018,"text":"最少的就是不提供外出甚至就醫有時候甚至還被拒絕所以想問說服務人員也不夠量能就沒有辦法提升個人助理的薪資中去年的確調升到每小時250塊並補助勞健保可是請問這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格的來做我們的各助的工作因為我們現在才第608位各助而已"},{"start":546.818,"end":563.675,"text":"那我不知道对于各住的人的提升的问题你们还有没有什么其他策略是 包委员我想委员知道就是说个人助理跟长照其实事实上它的目的是不一样那个长照顾名思义主要是生活照顾是但是个人助理这边主要是社会参与"},{"start":564.495,"end":589.082,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們當然會以這個就是說彼此之間兩者雖然我們會以兩者之間的整合為主那這裡面會牽涉到第二個問題剛剛委員剛剛所說的各住這邊它的這個數量還有它的這一個品質雖然部分我們當然也我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA跟現薪資已經提到250的時候那有吸引到更多人嗎"},{"start":589.642,"end":613.576,"text":"八五委任我們當然這部分我們會來強化那我們現在目前還有一個就是說只要他受訓好像25小時就可以來擔任我們的個人助理那我想這個部分也會對於我們身心障礙者在很多的一些社會參與上面來說會有很大的一個會有很大的幫助 謝謝那新北市政府呢整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照"},{"start":614.369,"end":614.729,"text":"所以想問部長說"},{"start":634.649,"end":651.861,"text":"這兩套評估制度有落差的問題 上次我就有質詢過請問現在可以提出 今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎因為上次已經質詢過 已經現在有具體的解決方式嗎報告委員 我們現在目前"},{"start":653.786,"end":668.08,"text":"我現在目前正在整合那個有關於身心障礙跟長照這邊我同意這邊現在目前確實有一些gap但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面身心障礙者他大概47%"},{"start":670.26,"end":687.065,"text":"我們主要的長照使用者其實時間障礙者的這個比例那個其實快要一半啦市長我想講的是他們評估長照跟身上的連評估同樣的人就他狀況是一樣的就評估的等級事實上不同我要請你們是解決這個問題"},{"start":689.575,"end":711.102,"text":"對,但是委員我想你也了解長照他要使用其實最重要是CMS嘛就是說你必須要符合disability整個失能的這一個部分你才能夠來申請但身心障礙的話他這裡面其實主要他有各個面向除了生活照顧之外另外還有其他他有包括他的整個社會參與啊還有另外像就學就醫等等這些"},{"start":714.483,"end":742.568,"text":"不同不同的這個層面所以這兩邊的他的整個評估的指標其實還是略略有一些不一樣可是落差非常的大是是是是那我了解那我所以我現在正在召集我現在目前社家屬這邊有關什麼時候可以去解決這個問題包圍我們現在什麼時候討論我們現在3.0也準備明年上路嘛那現在其中有幾次計畫裡面其實確實有一個部分就是有關於聲音障礙者跟長照這邊資源還有各項的一個整合整合的部分另外一個就是"},{"start":743.368,"end":767.279,"text":"剛我念了各住的一些資格裡邊是跟長照服務法對於照顧人員的資格的認定都有一些落差甚至名稱不同的話還影響到他們的權益所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的應該就是謹慎你們何時會針對人力資格的檢討並做整合因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話"},{"start":767.859,"end":797.139,"text":"那那個深藏跟長照這邊那人員的資格都已經不相容的話你們什麼時候可以去做檢討包委員我們就成為我剛剛說的我們現在目前3.0裡面會把那個長照跟深藏這邊的一個在整個服務資格還有整個這個人員部分我們來做整合但是我要強調中間的一個區別在於長照主要在生活照顧嘛那個各處是社會參與那像譬如說剛剛委員你有提到就是說他們在"},{"start":797.939,"end":823.224,"text":"他們的記者會那邊有提到就是說他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些那個其實還是屬於長照這邊這並不是屬於各處他要負責的工作這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下可是人員資格的話也不能落差到太大我同樣是這樣的學經歷背景跑到另外一個地方的時候就反而事實上是資格不太符合的應該如果生活照顧應該事實上是一樣的"},{"start":824.224,"end":846.532,"text":"那在自立生活方支持的服務底下除了各住以外事實上還有同儕支持員的服務同儕支持員跟服務員同樣支持服務具兩面性他同時上對帳友可以陪伴跟支持服務可是也因為他具有身帳的一個身份而且他零有這個工作的話可以讓他有分收入所以"},{"start":847.592,"end":863.29,"text":"問一下部長說這法推動10年同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化職業化甚至補助每小時上市230元的服務費而不補助勞健保的費用同儕支持員不視為是勞工你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":864.506,"end":885.196,"text":"我想委員提的這樣的一個專業化職業化是一個很正向也應該要這樣做的我們都落實包括委員這個確實我們會來朝向這個目標這個確實也應該要把它更加的專業化的方向中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到可能要去考慮"},{"start":886.196,"end":905.698,"text":"然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員大概共計208人共計提供服務的時數4471小時可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時那服務量能非常低比個住還要低那你不認為這一項事上是應該要大力提升"},{"start":906.298,"end":931.261,"text":"量能的服務項目嗎我覺得這應該是不是你們應該接下來所以因為我認為說這一個事實上是一份職業又可以有助於戰友的就業為何勞動條件只給半套所以你趕快去做檢討然後也希望這個的人力用人應該要提升那個量次最後大家就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目還有明確定"},{"start":932.122,"end":948.213,"text":"各處的工作內容是什麼不會被拒絕說我可能這個外出服務就醫我不提供還要加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的做整合還有推動我們同儕資源專業化跟職業化以上麻煩"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時40分）主席，麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。今天早上身心障礙團體在臺北市議會召開記者會，訴求自立生活申請應有合理標準，時數評估應該要透明，且強烈控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心。為什麼這麼講？一個24小時都需要人從旁全力協助者，而委員會委員竟然問，家人為什麼不幫忙處理？當家人都已經要24小時照顧時，總需要一個喘息時間吧？甚至還說，你們爭取自立生活時數是為了成為英雄，所以不能夠讓他得逞，免得各地的障礙者都群起效仿。部長，如果各地委員會都如此缺乏人權觀念，審查門檻又高，審查黑箱、服務斷裂，讓障礙者生活得沒尊嚴，這樣是否符合CRPD的精神？當然不符合！社會福利的提供，本來就必須依據被照顧者的需求程度給予足夠的服務，不要漏接任何一個人，更不要去羞辱任何一個人！所有的障礙都是社會造成的，是制度造成的，竟有審查委員如此羞辱政府應該有責任照顧卻又一直未能落實照顧的這群人。本席要問的是，在資源布建緩慢的狀況下，到底要怎麼實現平等？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，不管在衛政或醫政，其實國家及政府都很注重，尤其就社政來說，這是應該有的權益，故我們以此為立足點來努力。至於成果，像5月在日內瓦WHA大會召開期間，我們就呈現我們在社會福利上的努力，也得到各國的肯定。我想對於政府的努力，人民要有信心，國家的發展好還要更好，如果有任何一項做不好的，我們也會很謙卑地去改善。"],["林委員月琴：身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正，但本法第五十條所規定的自立生活服務這十年來始終是不夠的。以本法第五十條規定身心障礙者自立生活相關之社區支持為例，在身心障礙者照顧服務資源布建計畫中提到，以障友本人為服務對象，補助據點跟人事費用，提供法定服務跟創新服務。部長，到今年為止，身心障礙者服務機構只有266家，公立的只有12家，其他239家為私立跟公設民營機構，且多數為住宿型機構，生活重建機構才7家而已，福利服務中心20家，服務1.6萬人。相較之下，現金補助對象是96.3萬人，但除了發現金跟提供住宿外，障友們所得到的服務項目少之又少。請問障友還可以得到什麼樣的支持？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員提出這些數據讓我們來做研議跟檢討。這部分，我是不是請呂次長幫忙回答？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對這部分的關心。誠如委員剛才所說，我們在這部分有幾點說明。首先，在CRPD中，我們希望能夠擴建社區式服務，這是最重要的。至於涵蓋率，我跟委員報告，到2028年為止，我們希望可以達到29.02%的目標。不過去年的涵蓋率已經大概達到24%，所以我們現在是穩步前進，委員剛剛所說涵蓋率的問題，我們會趕快……"],["林委員月琴：時間點大概會抓什麼時候？為什麼？因為我們去看過長照跟身障，發現事實落差非常大，所以希望你們的速度應該要快一點！為什麼？對於需要生活自立、需要資源的障友們來說，幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務。不過我剛剛提到，我希望審查委員可以有CRPD的精神，而不是在委員會議中讓身障者坐立難安15分鐘，且整個都用羞辱式的語言！所以拜託一下，也請你們儘早處理。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，如果有這種情況發生，我們是絕對不允許的……"],["林委員月琴：這問題當然不是只有個助……現在除了發現金以外，其實個助才是比較實際的服務。但根據身障團體調查，有七成障友們所獲得的個助時數是不足的！部長，公共服務的貧瘠限制了障友的期待，本法推動10年，障友們各項資源都缺乏，以致現在只能對個助的時數提出要求，並期待增加時數。問題是：全國能提供服務的個助只有608位，而獲得服務的障友只有1,096人，平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務，請問你們怎麼理解這問題？時數真的非常低！我剛剛提到，有些人24小時都需要人力協助，如果家人已經付出大半時間，那麼有時候真的需要一個替代人手幫忙，可是你們所能提供的服務時數又非常低！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。對於照顧者的照顧，即喘息服務，也是未來政府很重視的部分，如長照3.0就非常重視這點，所以政府在這部分……"],["林委員月琴：現在長照所提供的服務遠比身心障礙者來得更完整。"],["邱部長泰源：但兩者其實可以並用，可否請呂次長補充一下？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，三個重點說明：第一，臺灣與日本相較，日本只能二擇一，而臺灣的身心障礙者可以使用長照服務，也可以使用個人助理。至於使用率方面，如果有重疊的話，我記得應該有70%。"],["林委員月琴：次長，這要真的懂且了解的人才有可能，但大部分身障者所了解的只有身障服務。確實，了解的人會將身障與長照並用……"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：所以我還是要問，什麼時候才能落實本法第五十條規定之多元服務？身心障礙者照顧服務布建計畫五年的目標可以產出哪些服務？服務人數與個助可以達到多少？"],["呂次長建德：有關個人助理這部分，我知道團體及各界都非常關心。跟委員報告，本部目前的修正草案有增訂第五十條之一，即增加一條專門的修正。現行的第五十條有十項，至於個人助理則授權子法處理。但現在為了回應民間的要求，所以以第五十條之一的方式來處理自立生活跟個助這部分，跟委員報告。"],["林委員月琴：法律規定個助需具備教保員、訓練員、生活服務員、照顧服務員、家庭托顧服務員或臨時及短期照顧服務員資格，非常多樣，而其實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧、身體照顧跟家事服務。部長，根據團體調查顯示，有7%的個助不提供外出服務，另外，身體照顧與家事服務也有不願意提供的狀況。所以我想請問，在各縣市個助服務項目不一致的前提下，你們怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：當然要取得共識，不能讓不同的縣市有不同的服務狀況！我相信這部分我們都有在努力，呂次要不要說明一下？"],["林委員月琴：但這是身障團體所調查的，像不提供洗澡服務的最多，有22%，最少的則是不提供外出，有時候甚至連就醫都被拒絕！所以我想問，既然服務人員不夠，那麼量能就沒有辦法提升，所以雖然個人助理的薪資從去年調升到每小時250元，並補助勞健保，可是這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格者來從事個助工作？畢竟現在才608位個助而已。對於提升個助人數的問題，你們有沒有其他策略？"],["呂次長建德：我想委員也知道，個人助理跟長照的目的是不一樣的！長照顧名思義主要是生活照顧……"],["林委員月琴：是。"],["呂次長建德：至於個人助理，主要是社會參與，所以我們以彼此之間、兩者……我們會以整合兩者為主，不過這又牽涉第二個問題。剛剛委員提到個助的數量及品質問題，在數量部分，我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA，這部分……"],["林委員月琴：可是現在薪資已經提高到250了，有吸引到更多人嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，當然這部分我們會來強化，我們現在還有一個作法，就是只要他受訓25小時，就可以來擔任我們的個人助理，我想這個部分也會對於身心障礙者，在很多的社會參與上面來說，會有很大的幫助，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：新北市政府整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照服務的居家服務資源，可是實務上發生先天軟骨不全症障友具有申請個助的資格，可是在長照照顧服務需求等級評估卻只有二級的奇怪現象，這個問題我上次有質詢過，所以想問部長，這兩套評估制度有落差的問題，上次我就有質詢過，請問今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎？因為上次已經質詢過，現在已經有具體的解決方式嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在正在整合有關於身心障礙跟長照，我同意目前確實有些gap，但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解，我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面，身心障礙者大概占47%，我們主要的長照使用者，身心障礙者的比例其實快要一半啦。"],["林委員月琴：次長，我想講的是，在評估時，長照跟身障評估同樣的人，也就是狀況是一樣的，結果評估的等級事實上卻不同，我要請你們去解決這個問題。"],["呂次長建德：對，但是我想委員你也了解，長照要使用時，其實最重要的是CMS嘛，就是你必須要符合disability失能的部分，你才能夠來申請。至於身心障礙的話，這裡面其實主要是各個面向，除了生活照顧之外，另外還有其他，包括他的整個社會參與，還有像就學、就醫等等這些不同的層面，所以這兩邊整個評估的指標，其實還是略略有一些不一樣啦。"],["林委員月琴：可是落差非常的大耶！"],["呂次長建德：是、是、是，我了解，所以我現在正在召集，目前社家署這邊有關身心障礙……"],["林委員月琴：大概什麼時候可以解決這個問題？你們什麼時候討論完成？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為我們現在長照3.0也準備在明年上路嘛，其中有幾支計畫裡面，確實有一個部分就是有關於身心障礙者跟長照這邊的資源，還有各項整合的部分。"],["林委員月琴：另外一個問題，我剛剛唸了個助的一些資格裡面，事實上跟長照服務法對於照顧人員的資格認定，都有一些落差，甚至名稱不同的話，還會影響到他們的權益，所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的就應該謹慎。你們何時會針對人力資格去檢討並做整合？因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話，當身障跟長照這邊人員的資格都已經不相容的話，你們什麼時候可以做檢討？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，就誠如我剛剛說的，我們現在在3.0裡面會把長照跟身障這邊，在整個服務資格，還有人員的部分，我們來做整合，但是我要強調，中間的一個區別在於長照主要還是生活照顧嘛，個助則是社會參與，譬如剛剛委員有提到他們在記者會上有提到，就是他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些，那其實主要還是屬於長照這邊，這並不是屬於個助要負責的工作，這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下。"],["林委員月琴：可是人員資格的部分也不能落差到太大啊……"],["呂次長建德：我了解。"],["林委員月琴：甚至同樣是這樣的學經歷背景，跑到另外一個地方的時候，就反而變成是資格不太符合的，如果是生活照顧的話，應該事實上要是一樣的。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["林委員月琴：在自立生活支持的服務底下，除了個助以外，事實上還有同儕支持員的服務，同儕支持員服務其實是具兩面性，他同時對於障友可以提供陪伴跟支持服務，可是也因為他具有身障的身分，而且他領有這個工作的話，可以讓他有一份收入，所以想問一下部長，這部法推動10年了，同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化、職業化，甚至補助每小時230元的服務費，而且不補助勞健保的費用，同儕支持員不被視為勞工，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員提出這樣一個專業化，職業化，是一個很正向，也應該要這樣做的，我們都落實……"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個部分確實啦，我們會來朝向這個目標，這個確實也應該要讓它朝更專業化的方向去做。"],["林委員月琴：你們要可能去考慮啦，否則的話，中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到損傷，這些情況可能要去考慮。然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員共計208人，提供服務的時數共計4,471小時，可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時，服務量能非常低，比個助還要低，難道你們不認為這一項應該是要大力提升量能的服務項目嗎？我覺得這部分是不是你們接下來應該要去做的？因為我認為這個事實上是一份職業，又可以有助於障友的就業，為何勞動條件只給半套？所以請你們趕快做檢討，然後也希望這個部分的人力使用應該要提升量次。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["林委員月琴：最後，當然就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目，還有明確訂定個助的工作內容是什麼，不會被拒絕說，可能外出服務就醫部分不提供，並加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的整合，還有推動同儕支持員的專業化跟職業化。以上，麻煩。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們往這個方向來努力。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員的詢答。","接下來請陳菁徽委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}}