{"id":162764,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91ab45bc243acaa4b35b9483b76f331b600b1c1f5e093a479500e4b2c360d55b1ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:56:15 - 10:12:10","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T09:56:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T10:12:10+08:00","duration":955,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162764","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162764","tool":"pyannote","id":"162764-pyannote"},"job_id":"QjdmG1PMOYdm3RPx","queued_at":"2025-06-23 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\"剛剛次長有提到巴黎 倫敦等等我們就來看其他國家左上是日本名古屋機場的優先席的圖示左下角是韓國地鐵 右邊是英國倫敦它其實都涵蓋有進去老弱婦孺但也許它還有增加這個身心障礙者有沒有 它有增加一個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 398.49, \"end\": 398.75, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 398.75, \"end\": 398.89, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 398.89, \"end\": 399.03, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 399.03, \"end\": 399.25, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"巴\", \"start\": 399.25, \"end\": 399.51, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"黎\", \"start\": 399.51, \"end\": 400.271, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"倫\"}, {\"word\": \"敦\", \"start\": 400.271, \"end\": 400.711, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 400.711, \"end\": 400.911, \"score\": 0.611}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 400.911, \"end\": 401.351, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 401.351, \"end\": 401.511, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 401.511, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 949.116, \"end\": 949.316, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 949.316, \"end\": 949.336, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,824 --> 00:00:33,114\n好謝謝主席謝謝各位委員我們請邱部長委員好部長我們今天要審查的這個身障權法第53條其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者這個當然是很有必要因為生理痛或是我們看不見隱形的不舒服都需要座位所以把它入法本席認為是好的\n\n2\n00:00:34,574 --> 00:01:01,749\n之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問媒體有訪問您為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等您講到的一個理由說你覺得這樣子做可以體現社會的愛與包容讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整形成我們一個台灣人的愛與關懷的美好風景但是我聽完你剛那一段的說法\n\n3\n00:01:02,609 --> 00:01:29,896\n聽起來好像比較像是博愛因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷友愛還有同舟共濟的精神社會成員之間的團結跟互助反而不是要把它改為優先席所以您對於這個名稱你有沒有什麼想法至今我想譬如說我想那個委員也\n\n4\n00:01:32,455 --> 00:01:56,625\n也是都是到各國去都很有經驗啦也可以看到像日本也是Priority嘛那我想這個是看起來是國際的一個趨勢但是在國際在實務上我們希望剛剛今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常我個人非常感動講得非常清楚那個部分就是這樣子就是因為避免產生一些\n\n5\n00:01:57,685 --> 00:02:12,394\n不必要的困擾所以從PrioritySeat這個部分會比較按照實際上的需求不要互相在那邊引起不必要的爭議真的讓需要者但是\n\n6\n00:02:13,636 --> 00:02:30,090\n不要忘記這樣的一個幫忙這樣的一個體貼還是存有體貼在裡面愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的所以精神不變可是我們實務上來讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧\n\n7\n00:02:30,891 --> 00:02:52,701\n等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的做法等一下跟部長一起討論另外也想知道說現在有兩個版本分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本也會想要問部長您的立場為何您是想要刪除或是您覺得可以不用刪除\n\n8\n00:02:58,903 --> 00:03:22,016\n市長要不要跟委員報告其實今天如果是我們大概在多數委員的建議的版本裡面其實大概如果是他加進了其他有實際需求其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺其實它就是等於是包含就是它是一個有一個歷史性的一個效果\n\n9\n00:03:23,257 --> 00:03:47,433\n不管他將來是不是保留其實未來在實際執行面的時候是都會以不管是可見或者是隱形的這些需求者為使用的對象所以等下在討論的時候可以尊重大家的一些討論的方向部長我們先看一下現在我們很多國內國外的做法這個是高鐵的如果我們去查高鐵他在網站上的介紹他說\n\n10\n00:03:48,854 --> 00:04:09,925\n他的這個博愛座是禮讓年長者懷孕還有行動不便的旅客優先入座並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給有身心障礙人士需求那如果說像剛剛司長講的我們真的把這四個字從生權法裡面刪掉您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎還是保持原來這樣子\n\n11\n00:04:13,820 --> 00:04:33,212\n我想我們如果名字已經大家共識我相信交通部的一個處理就會按照這樣的精神來做整體型所以要刪還是不要刪這些圖示圖示對圖示還有他網站上的解說交通單位是會配合來調整\n\n12\n00:04:34,944 --> 00:04:58,243\n理事的意見OK非常感謝委員的意見其實我們在國外我們看到大概就是說通常是PrioritySeatPriority那Priority的意思就是說Thosewhoinneed只要你有需求者你都可以來做這第一個重點第二個其實在國外有很多其實他們都會名列很多很多的一個類似的圖示其實不限於這三項如果你去巴黎你如果去法蘭克福\n\n13\n00:04:58,803 --> 00:05:18,676\n他們大概會我的印象大概會出現大概五六種但這只是一個劣勢嘛劣勢就是說主要當然就是說就是身心障礙者Pregnant懷孕者還有這一個比較虛弱的老人但是如果說你有有其他有需求者也都可以\n\n14\n00:05:19,256 --> 00:05:37,913\n所以我個人按照各國的經驗我們大概就是說除了名稱改之外PrioritySeed英文沒問題吧但是我們現在只是改成優先做但是劣勢的部分我建議可能可以增加增加你要增加土對沒錯那我們來看下一張來部長我們來看下一張這個是北捷\n\n15\n00:05:42,523 --> 00:06:11,072\n北捷我們播一下助理幫忙播一下北捷他會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝好我們從前面開始您好請發揮愛心將座位優先禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝Pleasegiveyourseattothoseinneed您好請發揮愛心大家為優先女后宿舍入客謝謝\n\n16\n00:06:16,495 --> 00:06:37,390\n所以他在解釋他需要的旅客他的圖還有他的Q版其實都有包含你剛想要刪除的老弱婦孺所以基本上剛講的你是說增加這個圖示可是其實還是涵蓋原本的這四個項目因為不得不說他們也是真的需求量會比較高的\n\n17\n00:06:38,490 --> 00:06:59,635\n剛剛次長有提到巴黎倫敦等等我們就來看其他國家左上是日本名古屋機場的優先席的圖示左下角是韓國地鐵右邊是英國倫敦它其實都涵蓋有進去老弱婦孺但也許它還有增加這個身心障礙者有沒有它有增加一個\n\n18\n00:07:00,675 --> 00:07:20,754\n尤其在日本這邊還有增加身心障礙者可是原本的老弱婦孺都是被涵蓋進去的所以有需求的人就不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺這個座位不應該要變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架我建議本部是不是考量去做加法而不是去做減法\n\n19\n00:07:21,815 --> 00:07:44,197\n因為把舊的東西刪除掉那更去加強宣導實質的需求讓全部人有正確的觀念我覺得是不是把刪掉可以把所有的紛爭都隔除你是真的這樣子覺得嗎或者是我們考慮來用加法再增加擴充的文字然後加強去宣導你覺得怎麼樣\n\n20\n00:07:45,559 --> 00:07:53,449\n這個我們尊重會員們大家的討論那加法也是一個非常也是看起來有一些先進國家也是這樣在處理好到時候我們逐條再來討論好嗎好的好謝謝那下一個問題這個想必前兩週這個新聞全國都非常的關注因為\n\n21\n00:08:05,807 --> 00:08:29,483\n這個很久前10名的國人10大死亡已經沒有自殺但到現在呢今年發現說15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升尤其大家又更在意的是像台灣大學中興兒家研究中心有發現說這個針對青少年輕生的比例2021年每10萬人上升\n\n22\n00:08:30,564 --> 00:08:53,796\n是4.5人然後上升到2023年每10萬人是7人那台大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現說青少年的親生率上升與父母的離婚率增加網路的使用率還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關就有正相關那同時呢也分析說他們的\n\n23\n00:08:55,057 --> 00:09:09,310\n至少原因是非常多元和複雜的我想要知道說你們看到他全面上升15到64歲你們對於各年齡層他的原因的分析為何還有希望提供的解方為何\n\n24\n00:09:10,865 --> 00:09:35,655\n好謝謝委員關心我想在割了14年我們14年前我們很高興因為我們當時很努力成立自殺防治中心那我也是右翼政治防治協會的創始的理事所以我們對這個部分能夠離開十大死刑室自殺能夠離開人世真的是非常高興那如今\n\n25\n00:09:37,135 --> 00:09:59,050\n又進來的話我們當然深切在檢討那因為我們這幾年已經很努力在心理健康支持譬如說在今年我們增加當然是從去年的可能是後半年我們增加了一個心理支持的一個年齡層這個成效都感覺蠻力度都很這蠻力度很高啦也應該有有他的成效\n\n26\n00:10:00,471 --> 00:10:27,189\n我這邊給你看一下滿意度很高沒錯但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的因此8月1號你們有舉辦了一個活動說要擴大他的年齡層所以我們又把它延伸到45歲這個8月1號的活動我也有去參加我認為我個人對這個支持算是很支持的但是你仔細觀察這個數據你看一下\n\n27\n00:10:29,671 --> 00:10:54,704\n你覺得要擴大人數所以一口氣我們增加了15歲喔可是你的平均月的服務量其實是減少的這個很奇怪你一口氣增加15歲應該是服務量能要增加才對結果你從以前的112年月均服務3000多人到現在最近月均是2189人是不是應該要去深究到底是為什麼因為\n\n28\n00:10:55,865 --> 00:11:13,893\n你剛剛講15到64歲你應該去分析一些rawdata這些高齡者他有沒有跟慢性病有相關嗎他是性別的比例分布是如何等等他有沒有一些這個其他科別的就醫記錄這個都是你從衛福部的database很簡單可以抓出來的\n\n29\n00:11:14,946 --> 00:11:36,967\n好包委員我們都是醫療人員我們知道我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生的題材來做相關的研究所以這樣的一個變化當然我們初步了解說像原來在COVID在裡面十大死因裡面當然現在當然跳到12那我們在腎臟各方面的疾病糖尿病後面的死亡率降低\n\n30\n00:11:37,808 --> 00:11:56,750\n所以變成第11個自殺就上線了當然這個絕對要檢討當然這個數目是等一下看市長有沒有這個部分的說明因為這個我們會很努力來做一定是看起來是有增加沒有啦實際上沒有增加\n\n31\n00:11:59,412 --> 00:12:25,448\n其實我們要心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣自殺防治是很複雜的所以我們也有通過在座很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法那個部分應該也要去更加的整體性的來落實我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該我們整體一起來做不是只有靠心理健康支持\n\n32\n00:12:25,908 --> 00:12:51,604\n不過這個部分人事的這個部分特別請那個代理市長回答一下市長可以簡單的講一下嗎跟委員報告我們的這個心理健康支持方案從去年的8月1號開始我們有擴大到這個我們服務的一個年齡但是除了心理健康師這邊推動的這個心理健康支持方案之外其實其他的部會也有在推動心理健康支持方案譬如說勞動部也有針對勞工的部分勞動部做得很不好\n\n33\n00:12:51,744 --> 00:13:08,420\n我已經諮詢過兩次國防部也有針對他的國軍的部分以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分所以說有關於這個心理健康支持的方案的話相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣的努力我們在不同的一個場域我們都是有持續的來做一個推動那至於說這個有關於這個\n\n34\n00:13:11,983 --> 00:13:32,950\n原因的部分的話剛剛那個委員有特別提到其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析那包含自殺死亡自殺通報跟我們心理健康支持的方案跟其他資料的這個串聯之後來做分析這個我們新建市也會持續的來做好那之後我也跟你追這個報告這邊也建議因為我也有在媒體上看到司長發言說\n\n35\n00:13:34,631 --> 00:13:50,025\n青少年的自殺並非單一的原因所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業工會合作加強在臉書Dcard等等使用率高的社群平台去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情\n\n36\n00:13:50,746 --> 00:14:20,386\n就是青少年現在使用AI的比例非常的高他們用AI成為他們的心理支持甚至呢今天的這個很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低所以這是一個網路上實際發生的狀況而這個母親已經提起了訴訟了他因為小孩本來就有這個憂鬱的傾向所以他跟一位AI機器人聊天聊天後呢他比較順著他的意思所以他最後就去執行了這件事情\n\n37\n00:14:20,986 --> 00:14:43,524\n所以我是希望衛福部可以去掌握到你對網路平台這樣子的宣導自殺防制可能你要跟著與時俱進加進AI的這個部分現在很多青少年是交了AI的男友或是女友還會甚至在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒說希望他們不要休假他要跟這個網路的男友女友一起跨年好這個很重要的議題我們一定來演繹怎麼樣來處理\n\n38\n00:14:49,244 --> 00:14:56,872\n好那最後是想問一下有三個承諾也是很多人關心的第一就是我們的心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續會的會的\n\n39\n00:15:00,336 --> 00:15:25,292\n會繼續所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務再來這個針對通訊的諮商因為後來發現這個青少年他的可敬性也是很重要尤其是在晚上深夜或者是說有些比較內向的他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動是不是考慮可以增加這樣子的彈性去研擬\n\n40\n00:15:27,923 --> 00:15:49,336\n我想只要對人民的健康有幫助的方向我們一定來努力最後我會提醒您要在兩個月內給我一份書面報告因為剛有講青少年青生有三個原因還有潛在AI可能造成的風險再請您提供一份書面報告並不是只有心理支持方案可以去處理這些議題謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6824\t33114\t好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員 我們請邱部長委員好部長我們今天要審查的這個身障權法第53條其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者這個當然是很有必要因為生理痛或是我們看不見隱形的不舒服都需要座位所以把它入法本席認為是好的\n34574\t61749\t之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問媒體有訪問您為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等您講到的一個理由說你覺得這樣子做可以體現社會的愛與包容讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整形成我們一個台灣人的愛與關懷的美好風景但是我聽完你剛那一段的說法\n62609\t89896\t聽起來好像比較像是博愛因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷友愛還有同舟共濟的精神社會成員之間的團結跟互助反而不是要把它改為優先席所以您對於這個名稱你有沒有什麼想法至今我想譬如說我想那個委員也\n92455\t116625\t也是都是到各國去都很有經驗啦也可以看到像日本也是Priority嘛那我想這個是看起來是國際的一個趨勢但是在國際在實務上我們希望剛剛今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常我個人非常感動講得非常清楚那個部分就是這樣子就是因為避免產生一些\n117685\t132394\t不必要的困擾所以從Priority Seat這個部分會比較按照實際上的需求不要互相在那邊引起不必要的爭議真的讓需要者但是\n133636\t150090\t不要忘記這樣的一個幫忙這樣的一個體貼還是存有體貼在裡面愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的所以精神不變可是我們實務上來讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧\n150891\t172701\t等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的做法等一下跟部長一起討論另外也想知道說現在有兩個版本分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本也會想要問部長您的立場為何您是想要刪除或是您覺得可以不用刪除\n178903\t202016\t市長要不要跟委員報告其實今天如果是我們大概在多數委員的建議的版本裡面其實大概如果是他加進了其他有實際需求其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺其實它就是等於是包含就是它是一個有一個歷史性的一個效果\n203257\t227433\t不管他將來是不是保留其實未來在實際執行面的時候是都會以不管是可見或者是隱形的這些需求者為使用的對象所以等下在討論的時候可以尊重大家的一些討論的方向部長我們先看一下現在我們很多國內國外的做法這個是高鐵的如果我們去查高鐵他在網站上的介紹他說\n228854\t249925\t他的這個博愛座是禮讓年長者懷孕還有行動不便的旅客優先入座並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給有身心障礙人士需求那如果說像剛剛司長講的我們真的把這四個字從生權法裡面刪掉您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎還是保持原來這樣子\n253820\t273212\t我想我們如果名字已經大家共識我相信交通部的一個處理就會按照這樣的精神來做整體型所以要刪還是不要刪這些圖示圖示對圖示還有他網站上的解說交通單位是會配合來調整\n274944\t298243\t理事的意見OK 非常感謝委員的意見其實我們在國外我們看到大概就是說通常是Priority SeatPriority那Priority的意思就是說Those who in need只要你有需求者你都可以來做這第一個重點第二個其實在國外有很多其實他們都會名列很多很多的一個類似的圖示其實不限於這三項如果你去巴黎你如果去法蘭克福\n298803\t318676\t他們大概會我的印象大概會出現大概五六種但這只是一個劣勢嘛劣勢就是說主要當然就是說就是身心障礙者Pregnant懷孕者還有這一個比較虛弱的老人但是如果說你有有其他有需求者也都可以\n319256\t337913\t所以我個人 按照各國的經驗我們大概就是說除了名稱改之外Priority Seed 英文沒問題吧但是我們現在只是改成優先做但是劣勢的部分我建議可能可以增加增加 你要增加土對 沒錯 那我們來看下一張來 部長我們來看下一張這個是北捷\n342523\t371072\t北捷我們播一下助理幫忙播一下北捷他會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝好我們從前面開始您好請發揮愛心將座位優先禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝Please give your seat to those in need您好請發揮愛心大家為優先女后宿舍入客謝謝\n376495\t397390\t所以他在解釋他需要的旅客他的圖還有他的Q版其實都有包含你剛想要刪除的老弱婦孺所以基本上剛講的你是說增加這個圖示可是其實還是涵蓋原本的這四個項目因為不得不說他們也是真的需求量會比較高的\n398490\t419635\t剛剛次長有提到巴黎 倫敦等等我們就來看其他國家左上是日本名古屋機場的優先席的圖示左下角是韓國地鐵 右邊是英國倫敦它其實都涵蓋有進去老弱婦孺但也許它還有增加這個身心障礙者有沒有 它有增加一個\n420675\t440754\t尤其在日本這邊還有增加身心障礙者可是原本的老弱婦孺都是被涵蓋進去的所以有需求的人就不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺這個座位不應該要變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架我建議本部是不是考量去做加法而不是去做減法\n441815\t464197\t因為把舊的東西刪除掉那更去加強宣導實質的需求讓全部人有正確的觀念我覺得是不是把刪掉可以把所有的紛爭都隔除你是真的這樣子覺得嗎或者是我們考慮來用加法再增加擴充的文字然後加強去宣導你覺得怎麼樣\n465559\t473449\t這個我們尊重會員們大家的討論那加法也是一個非常也是看起來有一些先進國家也是這樣在處理好 到時候我們逐條再來討論好嗎好的好謝謝那下一個問題這個想必前兩週這個新聞全國都非常的關注因為\n485807\t509483\t這個很久前10名的國人10大死亡已經沒有自殺但到現在呢今年發現說15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升尤其大家又更在意的是像台灣大學中興兒家研究中心有發現說這個針對青少年輕生的比例2021年每10萬人上升\n510564\t533796\t是4.5人然後上升到2023年每10萬人是7人那台大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現說青少年的親生率上升與父母的離婚率增加網路的使用率還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關就有正相關那同時呢也分析說他們的\n535057\t549310\t至少原因是非常多元和複雜的我想要知道說你們看到他全面上升15到64歲你們對於各年齡層他的原因的分析為何還有希望提供的解方為何\n550865\t575655\t好 謝謝委員關心我想在割了14年我們14年前我們很高興因為我們當時很努力成立自殺防治中心那我也是右翼政治防治協會的創始的理事所以我們對這個部分能夠離開十大死刑室自殺能夠離開人世真的是非常高興那如今\n577135\t599050\t又進來的話我們當然深切在檢討那因為我們這幾年已經很努力在心理健康支持譬如說在今年我們增加當然是從去年的可能是後半年我們增加了一個心理支持的一個年齡層這個成效都感覺蠻力度都很這蠻力度很高啦也應該有有他的成效\n600471\t627189\t我這邊給你看一下滿意度很高沒錯但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的因此8月1號你們有舉辦了一個活動說要擴大他的年齡層所以我們又把它延伸到45歲這個8月1號的活動我也有去參加我認為我個人對這個支持算是很支持的但是你仔細觀察這個數據你看一下\n629671\t654704\t你覺得要擴大人數所以一口氣我們增加了15歲喔可是你的平均月的服務量其實是減少的這個很奇怪你一口氣增加15歲應該是服務量能要增加才對結果你從以前的112年月均服務3000多人到現在最近月均是2189人是不是應該要去深究到底是為什麼因為\n655865\t673893\t你剛剛講15到64歲你應該去分析一些raw data這些高齡者他有沒有跟慢性病有相關嗎他是性別的比例分布是如何等等他有沒有一些這個其他科別的就醫記錄這個都是你從衛福部的database很簡單可以抓出來的\n674946\t696967\t好 包委員我們都是醫療人員我們知道我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生的題材來做相關的研究所以這樣的一個變化當然我們初步了解說像原來在COVID在裡面十大死因裡面當然現在當然跳到12那我們在腎臟各方面的疾病糖尿病後面的死亡率降低\n697808\t716750\t所以變成第11個自殺就上線了當然這個絕對要檢討當然這個數目是等一下看市長有沒有這個部分的說明因為這個我們會很努力來做一定是看起來是有增加沒有啦實際上沒有增加\n719412\t745448\t其實我們要心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣自殺防治是很複雜的所以我們也有通過在座很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法那個部分應該也要去更加的整體性的來落實我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該我們整體一起來做不是只有靠心理健康支持\n745908\t771604\t不過這個部分人事的這個部分特別請那個代理市長回答一下市長可以簡單的講一下嗎跟委員報告我們的這個心理健康支持方案從去年的8月1號開始我們有擴大到這個我們服務的一個年齡但是除了心理健康師這邊推動的這個心理健康支持方案之外其實其他的部會也有在推動心理健康支持方案譬如說勞動部也有針對勞工的部分勞動部做得很不好\n771744\t788420\t我已經諮詢過兩次國防部也有針對他的國軍的部分以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分所以說有關於這個心理健康支持的方案的話相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣的努力我們在不同的一個場域我們都是有持續的來做一個推動那至於說這個有關於這個\n791983\t812950\t原因的部分的話剛剛那個委員有特別提到其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析那包含自殺死亡自殺通報跟我們心理健康支持的方案跟其他資料的這個串聯之後來做分析這個我們新建市也會持續的來做好那之後我也跟你追這個報告這邊也建議因為我也有在媒體上看到司長發言說\n814631\t830025\t青少年的自殺並非單一的原因所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業工會合作加強在臉書Dcard等等使用率高的社群平台去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情\n830746\t860386\t就是青少年現在使用AI的比例非常的高他們用AI成為他們的心理支持甚至呢今天的這個很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低所以這是一個網路上實際發生的狀況而這個母親已經提起了訴訟了他因為小孩本來就有這個憂鬱的傾向所以他跟一位AI機器人聊天聊天後呢他比較順著他的意思所以他最後就去執行了這件事情\n860986\t883524\t所以我是希望衛福部可以去掌握到你對網路平台這樣子的宣導自殺防制可能你要跟著與時俱進加進AI的這個部分現在很多青少年是交了AI的男友或是女友還會甚至在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒說希望他們不要休假他要跟這個網路的男友女友一起跨年好 這個很重要的議題我們一定來演繹怎麼樣來處理\n889244\t896872\t好那最後是想問一下有三個承諾也是很多人關心的第一就是我們的心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續會的會的\n900336\t925292\t會繼續所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務再來這個針對通訊的諮商因為後來發現這個青少年他的可敬性也是很重要尤其是在晚上深夜或者是說有些比較內向的他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動是不是考慮可以增加這樣子的彈性去研擬\n927923\t949336\t我想只要對人民的健康有幫助的方向我們一定來努力最後我會提醒您要在兩個月內給我一份書面報告因為剛有講青少年青生有三個原因還有潛在AI可能造成的風險再請您提供一份書面報告並不是只有心理支持方案可以去處理這些議題謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員 我們請邱部長委員好部長我們今天要審查的這個身障權法第53條其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者這個當然是很有必要因為生理痛或是我們看不見隱形的不舒服都需要座位所以把它入法本席認為是好的\n之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問媒體有訪問您為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等您講到的一個理由說你覺得這樣子做可以體現社會的愛與包容讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整形成我們一個台灣人的愛與關懷的美好風景但是我聽完你剛那一段的說法\n聽起來好像比較像是博愛因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷友愛還有同舟共濟的精神社會成員之間的團結跟互助反而不是要把它改為優先席所以您對於這個名稱你有沒有什麼想法至今我想譬如說我想那個委員也\n也是都是到各國去都很有經驗啦也可以看到像日本也是Priority嘛那我想這個是看起來是國際的一個趨勢但是在國際在實務上我們希望剛剛今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常我個人非常感動講得非常清楚那個部分就是這樣子就是因為避免產生一些\n不必要的困擾所以從Priority Seat這個部分會比較按照實際上的需求不要互相在那邊引起不必要的爭議真的讓需要者但是\n不要忘記這樣的一個幫忙這樣的一個體貼還是存有體貼在裡面愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的所以精神不變可是我們實務上來讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧\n等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的做法等一下跟部長一起討論另外也想知道說現在有兩個版本分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本也會想要問部長您的立場為何您是想要刪除或是您覺得可以不用刪除\n市長要不要跟委員報告其實今天如果是我們大概在多數委員的建議的版本裡面其實大概如果是他加進了其他有實際需求其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺其實它就是等於是包含就是它是一個有一個歷史性的一個效果\n不管他將來是不是保留其實未來在實際執行面的時候是都會以不管是可見或者是隱形的這些需求者為使用的對象所以等下在討論的時候可以尊重大家的一些討論的方向部長我們先看一下現在我們很多國內國外的做法這個是高鐵的如果我們去查高鐵他在網站上的介紹他說\n他的這個博愛座是禮讓年長者懷孕還有行動不便的旅客優先入座並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給有身心障礙人士需求那如果說像剛剛司長講的我們真的把這四個字從生權法裡面刪掉您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎還是保持原來這樣子\n我想我們如果名字已經大家共識我相信交通部的一個處理就會按照這樣的精神來做整體型所以要刪還是不要刪這些圖示圖示對圖示還有他網站上的解說交通單位是會配合來調整\n理事的意見OK 非常感謝委員的意見其實我們在國外我們看到大概就是說通常是Priority SeatPriority那Priority的意思就是說Those who in need只要你有需求者你都可以來做這第一個重點第二個其實在國外有很多其實他們都會名列很多很多的一個類似的圖示其實不限於這三項如果你去巴黎你如果去法蘭克福\n他們大概會我的印象大概會出現大概五六種但這只是一個劣勢嘛劣勢就是說主要當然就是說就是身心障礙者Pregnant懷孕者還有這一個比較虛弱的老人但是如果說你有有其他有需求者也都可以\n所以我個人 按照各國的經驗我們大概就是說除了名稱改之外Priority Seed 英文沒問題吧但是我們現在只是改成優先做但是劣勢的部分我建議可能可以增加增加 你要增加土對 沒錯 那我們來看下一張來 部長我們來看下一張這個是北捷\n北捷我們播一下助理幫忙播一下北捷他會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝好我們從前面開始您好請發揮愛心將座位優先禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝Please give your seat to those in need您好請發揮愛心大家為優先女后宿舍入客謝謝\n所以他在解釋他需要的旅客他的圖還有他的Q版其實都有包含你剛想要刪除的老弱婦孺所以基本上剛講的你是說增加這個圖示可是其實還是涵蓋原本的這四個項目因為不得不說他們也是真的需求量會比較高的\n剛剛次長有提到巴黎 倫敦等等我們就來看其他國家左上是日本名古屋機場的優先席的圖示左下角是韓國地鐵 右邊是英國倫敦它其實都涵蓋有進去老弱婦孺但也許它還有增加這個身心障礙者有沒有 它有增加一個\n尤其在日本這邊還有增加身心障礙者可是原本的老弱婦孺都是被涵蓋進去的所以有需求的人就不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺這個座位不應該要變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架我建議本部是不是考量去做加法而不是去做減法\n因為把舊的東西刪除掉那更去加強宣導實質的需求讓全部人有正確的觀念我覺得是不是把刪掉可以把所有的紛爭都隔除你是真的這樣子覺得嗎或者是我們考慮來用加法再增加擴充的文字然後加強去宣導你覺得怎麼樣\n這個我們尊重會員們大家的討論那加法也是一個非常也是看起來有一些先進國家也是這樣在處理好 到時候我們逐條再來討論好嗎好的好謝謝那下一個問題這個想必前兩週這個新聞全國都非常的關注因為\n這個很久前10名的國人10大死亡已經沒有自殺但到現在呢今年發現說15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升尤其大家又更在意的是像台灣大學中興兒家研究中心有發現說這個針對青少年輕生的比例2021年每10萬人上升\n是4.5人然後上升到2023年每10萬人是7人那台大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現說青少年的親生率上升與父母的離婚率增加網路的使用率還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關就有正相關那同時呢也分析說他們的\n至少原因是非常多元和複雜的我想要知道說你們看到他全面上升15到64歲你們對於各年齡層他的原因的分析為何還有希望提供的解方為何\n好 謝謝委員關心我想在割了14年我們14年前我們很高興因為我們當時很努力成立自殺防治中心那我也是右翼政治防治協會的創始的理事所以我們對這個部分能夠離開十大死刑室自殺能夠離開人世真的是非常高興那如今\n又進來的話我們當然深切在檢討那因為我們這幾年已經很努力在心理健康支持譬如說在今年我們增加當然是從去年的可能是後半年我們增加了一個心理支持的一個年齡層這個成效都感覺蠻力度都很這蠻力度很高啦也應該有有他的成效\n我這邊給你看一下滿意度很高沒錯但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的因此8月1號你們有舉辦了一個活動說要擴大他的年齡層所以我們又把它延伸到45歲這個8月1號的活動我也有去參加我認為我個人對這個支持算是很支持的但是你仔細觀察這個數據你看一下\n你覺得要擴大人數所以一口氣我們增加了15歲喔可是你的平均月的服務量其實是減少的這個很奇怪你一口氣增加15歲應該是服務量能要增加才對結果你從以前的112年月均服務3000多人到現在最近月均是2189人是不是應該要去深究到底是為什麼因為\n你剛剛講15到64歲你應該去分析一些raw data這些高齡者他有沒有跟慢性病有相關嗎他是性別的比例分布是如何等等他有沒有一些這個其他科別的就醫記錄這個都是你從衛福部的database很簡單可以抓出來的\n好 包委員我們都是醫療人員我們知道我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生的題材來做相關的研究所以這樣的一個變化當然我們初步了解說像原來在COVID在裡面十大死因裡面當然現在當然跳到12那我們在腎臟各方面的疾病糖尿病後面的死亡率降低\n所以變成第11個自殺就上線了當然這個絕對要檢討當然這個數目是等一下看市長有沒有這個部分的說明因為這個我們會很努力來做一定是看起來是有增加沒有啦實際上沒有增加\n其實我們要心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣自殺防治是很複雜的所以我們也有通過在座很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法那個部分應該也要去更加的整體性的來落實我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該我們整體一起來做不是只有靠心理健康支持\n不過這個部分人事的這個部分特別請那個代理市長回答一下市長可以簡單的講一下嗎跟委員報告我們的這個心理健康支持方案從去年的8月1號開始我們有擴大到這個我們服務的一個年齡但是除了心理健康師這邊推動的這個心理健康支持方案之外其實其他的部會也有在推動心理健康支持方案譬如說勞動部也有針對勞工的部分勞動部做得很不好\n我已經諮詢過兩次國防部也有針對他的國軍的部分以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分所以說有關於這個心理健康支持的方案的話相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣的努力我們在不同的一個場域我們都是有持續的來做一個推動那至於說這個有關於這個\n原因的部分的話剛剛那個委員有特別提到其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析那包含自殺死亡自殺通報跟我們心理健康支持的方案跟其他資料的這個串聯之後來做分析這個我們新建市也會持續的來做好那之後我也跟你追這個報告這邊也建議因為我也有在媒體上看到司長發言說\n青少年的自殺並非單一的原因所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業工會合作加強在臉書Dcard等等使用率高的社群平台去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情\n就是青少年現在使用AI的比例非常的高他們用AI成為他們的心理支持甚至呢今天的這個很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低所以這是一個網路上實際發生的狀況而這個母親已經提起了訴訟了他因為小孩本來就有這個憂鬱的傾向所以他跟一位AI機器人聊天聊天後呢他比較順著他的意思所以他最後就去執行了這件事情\n所以我是希望衛福部可以去掌握到你對網路平台這樣子的宣導自殺防制可能你要跟著與時俱進加進AI的這個部分現在很多青少年是交了AI的男友或是女友還會甚至在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒說希望他們不要休假他要跟這個網路的男友女友一起跨年好 這個很重要的議題我們一定來演繹怎麼樣來處理\n好那最後是想問一下有三個承諾也是很多人關心的第一就是我們的心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續會的會的\n會繼續所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務再來這個針對通訊的諮商因為後來發現這個青少年他的可敬性也是很重要尤其是在晚上深夜或者是說有些比較內向的他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動是不是考慮可以增加這樣子的彈性去研擬\n我想只要對人民的健康有幫助的方向我們一定來努力最後我會提醒您要在兩個月內給我一份書面報告因為剛有講青少年青生有三個原因還有潛在AI可能造成的風險再請您提供一份書面報告並不是只有心理支持方案可以去處理這些議題謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.824 --> 00:33.114\n好謝謝主席謝謝各位委員我們請邱部長委員好部長我們今天要審查的這個身障權法第53條其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者這個當然是很有必要因為生理痛或是我們看不見隱形的不舒服都需要座位所以把它入法本席認為是好的\n\n00:34.574 --> 01:01.749\n之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問媒體有訪問您為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等您講到的一個理由說你覺得這樣子做可以體現社會的愛與包容讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整形成我們一個台灣人的愛與關懷的美好風景但是我聽完你剛那一段的說法\n\n01:02.609 --> 01:29.896\n聽起來好像比較像是博愛因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷友愛還有同舟共濟的精神社會成員之間的團結跟互助反而不是要把它改為優先席所以您對於這個名稱你有沒有什麼想法至今我想譬如說我想那個委員也\n\n01:32.455 --> 01:56.625\n也是都是到各國去都很有經驗啦也可以看到像日本也是Priority嘛那我想這個是看起來是國際的一個趨勢但是在國際在實務上我們希望剛剛今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常我個人非常感動講得非常清楚那個部分就是這樣子就是因為避免產生一些\n\n01:57.685 --> 02:12.394\n不必要的困擾所以從PrioritySeat這個部分會比較按照實際上的需求不要互相在那邊引起不必要的爭議真的讓需要者但是\n\n02:13.636 --> 02:30.090\n不要忘記這樣的一個幫忙這樣的一個體貼還是存有體貼在裡面愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的所以精神不變可是我們實務上來讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧\n\n02:30.891 --> 02:52.701\n等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的做法等一下跟部長一起討論另外也想知道說現在有兩個版本分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本也會想要問部長您的立場為何您是想要刪除或是您覺得可以不用刪除\n\n02:58.903 --> 03:22.016\n市長要不要跟委員報告其實今天如果是我們大概在多數委員的建議的版本裡面其實大概如果是他加進了其他有實際需求其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺其實它就是等於是包含就是它是一個有一個歷史性的一個效果\n\n03:23.257 --> 03:47.433\n不管他將來是不是保留其實未來在實際執行面的時候是都會以不管是可見或者是隱形的這些需求者為使用的對象所以等下在討論的時候可以尊重大家的一些討論的方向部長我們先看一下現在我們很多國內國外的做法這個是高鐵的如果我們去查高鐵他在網站上的介紹他說\n\n03:48.854 --> 04:09.925\n他的這個博愛座是禮讓年長者懷孕還有行動不便的旅客優先入座並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給有身心障礙人士需求那如果說像剛剛司長講的我們真的把這四個字從生權法裡面刪掉您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎還是保持原來這樣子\n\n04:13.820 --> 04:33.212\n我想我們如果名字已經大家共識我相信交通部的一個處理就會按照這樣的精神來做整體型所以要刪還是不要刪這些圖示圖示對圖示還有他網站上的解說交通單位是會配合來調整\n\n04:34.944 --> 04:58.243\n理事的意見OK非常感謝委員的意見其實我們在國外我們看到大概就是說通常是PrioritySeatPriority那Priority的意思就是說Thosewhoinneed只要你有需求者你都可以來做這第一個重點第二個其實在國外有很多其實他們都會名列很多很多的一個類似的圖示其實不限於這三項如果你去巴黎你如果去法蘭克福\n\n04:58.803 --> 05:18.676\n他們大概會我的印象大概會出現大概五六種但這只是一個劣勢嘛劣勢就是說主要當然就是說就是身心障礙者Pregnant懷孕者還有這一個比較虛弱的老人但是如果說你有有其他有需求者也都可以\n\n05:19.256 --> 05:37.913\n所以我個人按照各國的經驗我們大概就是說除了名稱改之外PrioritySeed英文沒問題吧但是我們現在只是改成優先做但是劣勢的部分我建議可能可以增加增加你要增加土對沒錯那我們來看下一張來部長我們來看下一張這個是北捷\n\n05:42.523 --> 06:11.072\n北捷我們播一下助理幫忙播一下北捷他會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝好我們從前面開始您好請發揮愛心將座位優先禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝Pleasegiveyourseattothoseinneed您好請發揮愛心大家為優先女后宿舍入客謝謝\n\n06:16.495 --> 06:37.390\n所以他在解釋他需要的旅客他的圖還有他的Q版其實都有包含你剛想要刪除的老弱婦孺所以基本上剛講的你是說增加這個圖示可是其實還是涵蓋原本的這四個項目因為不得不說他們也是真的需求量會比較高的\n\n06:38.490 --> 06:59.635\n剛剛次長有提到巴黎倫敦等等我們就來看其他國家左上是日本名古屋機場的優先席的圖示左下角是韓國地鐵右邊是英國倫敦它其實都涵蓋有進去老弱婦孺但也許它還有增加這個身心障礙者有沒有它有增加一個\n\n07:00.675 --> 07:20.754\n尤其在日本這邊還有增加身心障礙者可是原本的老弱婦孺都是被涵蓋進去的所以有需求的人就不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺這個座位不應該要變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架我建議本部是不是考量去做加法而不是去做減法\n\n07:21.815 --> 07:44.197\n因為把舊的東西刪除掉那更去加強宣導實質的需求讓全部人有正確的觀念我覺得是不是把刪掉可以把所有的紛爭都隔除你是真的這樣子覺得嗎或者是我們考慮來用加法再增加擴充的文字然後加強去宣導你覺得怎麼樣\n\n07:45.559 --> 07:53.449\n這個我們尊重會員們大家的討論那加法也是一個非常也是看起來有一些先進國家也是這樣在處理好到時候我們逐條再來討論好嗎好的好謝謝那下一個問題這個想必前兩週這個新聞全國都非常的關注因為\n\n08:05.807 --> 08:29.483\n這個很久前10名的國人10大死亡已經沒有自殺但到現在呢今年發現說15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升尤其大家又更在意的是像台灣大學中興兒家研究中心有發現說這個針對青少年輕生的比例2021年每10萬人上升\n\n08:30.564 --> 08:53.796\n是4.5人然後上升到2023年每10萬人是7人那台大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現說青少年的親生率上升與父母的離婚率增加網路的使用率還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關就有正相關那同時呢也分析說他們的\n\n08:55.057 --> 09:09.310\n至少原因是非常多元和複雜的我想要知道說你們看到他全面上升15到64歲你們對於各年齡層他的原因的分析為何還有希望提供的解方為何\n\n09:10.865 --> 09:35.655\n好謝謝委員關心我想在割了14年我們14年前我們很高興因為我們當時很努力成立自殺防治中心那我也是右翼政治防治協會的創始的理事所以我們對這個部分能夠離開十大死刑室自殺能夠離開人世真的是非常高興那如今\n\n09:37.135 --> 09:59.050\n又進來的話我們當然深切在檢討那因為我們這幾年已經很努力在心理健康支持譬如說在今年我們增加當然是從去年的可能是後半年我們增加了一個心理支持的一個年齡層這個成效都感覺蠻力度都很這蠻力度很高啦也應該有有他的成效\n\n10:00.471 --> 10:27.189\n我這邊給你看一下滿意度很高沒錯但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的因此8月1號你們有舉辦了一個活動說要擴大他的年齡層所以我們又把它延伸到45歲這個8月1號的活動我也有去參加我認為我個人對這個支持算是很支持的但是你仔細觀察這個數據你看一下\n\n10:29.671 --> 10:54.704\n你覺得要擴大人數所以一口氣我們增加了15歲喔可是你的平均月的服務量其實是減少的這個很奇怪你一口氣增加15歲應該是服務量能要增加才對結果你從以前的112年月均服務3000多人到現在最近月均是2189人是不是應該要去深究到底是為什麼因為\n\n10:55.865 --> 11:13.893\n你剛剛講15到64歲你應該去分析一些rawdata這些高齡者他有沒有跟慢性病有相關嗎他是性別的比例分布是如何等等他有沒有一些這個其他科別的就醫記錄這個都是你從衛福部的database很簡單可以抓出來的\n\n11:14.946 --> 11:36.967\n好包委員我們都是醫療人員我們知道我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生的題材來做相關的研究所以這樣的一個變化當然我們初步了解說像原來在COVID在裡面十大死因裡面當然現在當然跳到12那我們在腎臟各方面的疾病糖尿病後面的死亡率降低\n\n11:37.808 --> 11:56.750\n所以變成第11個自殺就上線了當然這個絕對要檢討當然這個數目是等一下看市長有沒有這個部分的說明因為這個我們會很努力來做一定是看起來是有增加沒有啦實際上沒有增加\n\n11:59.412 --> 12:25.448\n其實我們要心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣自殺防治是很複雜的所以我們也有通過在座很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法那個部分應該也要去更加的整體性的來落實我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該我們整體一起來做不是只有靠心理健康支持\n\n12:25.908 --> 12:51.604\n不過這個部分人事的這個部分特別請那個代理市長回答一下市長可以簡單的講一下嗎跟委員報告我們的這個心理健康支持方案從去年的8月1號開始我們有擴大到這個我們服務的一個年齡但是除了心理健康師這邊推動的這個心理健康支持方案之外其實其他的部會也有在推動心理健康支持方案譬如說勞動部也有針對勞工的部分勞動部做得很不好\n\n12:51.744 --> 13:08.420\n我已經諮詢過兩次國防部也有針對他的國軍的部分以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分所以說有關於這個心理健康支持的方案的話相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣的努力我們在不同的一個場域我們都是有持續的來做一個推動那至於說這個有關於這個\n\n13:11.983 --> 13:32.950\n原因的部分的話剛剛那個委員有特別提到其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析那包含自殺死亡自殺通報跟我們心理健康支持的方案跟其他資料的這個串聯之後來做分析這個我們新建市也會持續的來做好那之後我也跟你追這個報告這邊也建議因為我也有在媒體上看到司長發言說\n\n13:34.631 --> 13:50.025\n青少年的自殺並非單一的原因所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業工會合作加強在臉書Dcard等等使用率高的社群平台去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情\n\n13:50.746 --> 14:20.386\n就是青少年現在使用AI的比例非常的高他們用AI成為他們的心理支持甚至呢今天的這個很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低所以這是一個網路上實際發生的狀況而這個母親已經提起了訴訟了他因為小孩本來就有這個憂鬱的傾向所以他跟一位AI機器人聊天聊天後呢他比較順著他的意思所以他最後就去執行了這件事情\n\n14:20.986 --> 14:43.524\n所以我是希望衛福部可以去掌握到你對網路平台這樣子的宣導自殺防制可能你要跟著與時俱進加進AI的這個部分現在很多青少年是交了AI的男友或是女友還會甚至在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒說希望他們不要休假他要跟這個網路的男友女友一起跨年好這個很重要的議題我們一定來演繹怎麼樣來處理\n\n14:49.244 --> 14:56.872\n好那最後是想問一下有三個承諾也是很多人關心的第一就是我們的心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續會的會的\n\n15:00.336 --> 15:25.292\n會繼續所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務再來這個針對通訊的諮商因為後來發現這個青少年他的可敬性也是很重要尤其是在晚上深夜或者是說有些比較內向的他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動是不是考慮可以增加這樣子的彈性去研擬\n\n15:27.923 --> 15:49.336\n我想只要對人民的健康有幫助的方向我們一定來努力最後我會提醒您要在兩個月內給我一份書面報告因為剛有講青少年青生有三個原因還有潛在AI可能造成的風險再請您提供一份書面報告並不是只有心理支持方案可以去處理這些議題謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.824,"end":33.114,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員 我們請邱部長委員好部長我們今天要審查的這個身障權法第53條其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者這個當然是很有必要因為生理痛或是我們看不見隱形的不舒服都需要座位所以把它入法本席認為是好的"},{"start":34.574,"end":61.749,"text":"之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問媒體有訪問您為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等您講到的一個理由說你覺得這樣子做可以體現社會的愛與包容讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整形成我們一個台灣人的愛與關懷的美好風景但是我聽完你剛那一段的說法"},{"start":62.609,"end":89.896,"text":"聽起來好像比較像是博愛因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷友愛還有同舟共濟的精神社會成員之間的團結跟互助反而不是要把它改為優先席所以您對於這個名稱你有沒有什麼想法至今我想譬如說我想那個委員也"},{"start":92.455,"end":116.625,"text":"也是都是到各國去都很有經驗啦也可以看到像日本也是Priority嘛那我想這個是看起來是國際的一個趨勢但是在國際在實務上我們希望剛剛今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常我個人非常感動講得非常清楚那個部分就是這樣子就是因為避免產生一些"},{"start":117.685,"end":132.394,"text":"不必要的困擾所以從Priority Seat這個部分會比較按照實際上的需求不要互相在那邊引起不必要的爭議真的讓需要者但是"},{"start":133.636,"end":150.09,"text":"不要忘記這樣的一個幫忙這樣的一個體貼還是存有體貼在裡面愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的所以精神不變可是我們實務上來讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧"},{"start":150.891,"end":172.701,"text":"等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的做法等一下跟部長一起討論另外也想知道說現在有兩個版本分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本也會想要問部長您的立場為何您是想要刪除或是您覺得可以不用刪除"},{"start":178.903,"end":202.016,"text":"市長要不要跟委員報告其實今天如果是我們大概在多數委員的建議的版本裡面其實大概如果是他加進了其他有實際需求其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺其實它就是等於是包含就是它是一個有一個歷史性的一個效果"},{"start":203.257,"end":227.433,"text":"不管他將來是不是保留其實未來在實際執行面的時候是都會以不管是可見或者是隱形的這些需求者為使用的對象所以等下在討論的時候可以尊重大家的一些討論的方向部長我們先看一下現在我們很多國內國外的做法這個是高鐵的如果我們去查高鐵他在網站上的介紹他說"},{"start":228.854,"end":249.925,"text":"他的這個博愛座是禮讓年長者懷孕還有行動不便的旅客優先入座並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給有身心障礙人士需求那如果說像剛剛司長講的我們真的把這四個字從生權法裡面刪掉您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎還是保持原來這樣子"},{"start":253.82,"end":273.212,"text":"我想我們如果名字已經大家共識我相信交通部的一個處理就會按照這樣的精神來做整體型所以要刪還是不要刪這些圖示圖示對圖示還有他網站上的解說交通單位是會配合來調整"},{"start":274.944,"end":298.243,"text":"理事的意見OK 非常感謝委員的意見其實我們在國外我們看到大概就是說通常是Priority SeatPriority那Priority的意思就是說Those who in need只要你有需求者你都可以來做這第一個重點第二個其實在國外有很多其實他們都會名列很多很多的一個類似的圖示其實不限於這三項如果你去巴黎你如果去法蘭克福"},{"start":298.803,"end":318.676,"text":"他們大概會我的印象大概會出現大概五六種但這只是一個劣勢嘛劣勢就是說主要當然就是說就是身心障礙者Pregnant懷孕者還有這一個比較虛弱的老人但是如果說你有有其他有需求者也都可以"},{"start":319.256,"end":337.913,"text":"所以我個人 按照各國的經驗我們大概就是說除了名稱改之外Priority Seed 英文沒問題吧但是我們現在只是改成優先做但是劣勢的部分我建議可能可以增加增加 你要增加土對 沒錯 那我們來看下一張來 部長我們來看下一張這個是北捷"},{"start":342.523,"end":371.072,"text":"北捷我們播一下助理幫忙播一下北捷他會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝好我們從前面開始您好請發揮愛心將座位優先禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝Please give your seat to those in need您好請發揮愛心大家為優先女后宿舍入客謝謝"},{"start":376.495,"end":397.39,"text":"所以他在解釋他需要的旅客他的圖還有他的Q版其實都有包含你剛想要刪除的老弱婦孺所以基本上剛講的你是說增加這個圖示可是其實還是涵蓋原本的這四個項目因為不得不說他們也是真的需求量會比較高的"},{"start":398.49,"end":419.635,"text":"剛剛次長有提到巴黎 倫敦等等我們就來看其他國家左上是日本名古屋機場的優先席的圖示左下角是韓國地鐵 右邊是英國倫敦它其實都涵蓋有進去老弱婦孺但也許它還有增加這個身心障礙者有沒有 它有增加一個"},{"start":420.675,"end":440.754,"text":"尤其在日本這邊還有增加身心障礙者可是原本的老弱婦孺都是被涵蓋進去的所以有需求的人就不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺這個座位不應該要變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架我建議本部是不是考量去做加法而不是去做減法"},{"start":441.815,"end":464.197,"text":"因為把舊的東西刪除掉那更去加強宣導實質的需求讓全部人有正確的觀念我覺得是不是把刪掉可以把所有的紛爭都隔除你是真的這樣子覺得嗎或者是我們考慮來用加法再增加擴充的文字然後加強去宣導你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":465.559,"end":473.449,"text":"這個我們尊重會員們大家的討論那加法也是一個非常也是看起來有一些先進國家也是這樣在處理好 到時候我們逐條再來討論好嗎好的好謝謝那下一個問題這個想必前兩週這個新聞全國都非常的關注因為"},{"start":485.807,"end":509.483,"text":"這個很久前10名的國人10大死亡已經沒有自殺但到現在呢今年發現說15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升尤其大家又更在意的是像台灣大學中興兒家研究中心有發現說這個針對青少年輕生的比例2021年每10萬人上升"},{"start":510.564,"end":533.796,"text":"是4.5人然後上升到2023年每10萬人是7人那台大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現說青少年的親生率上升與父母的離婚率增加網路的使用率還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關就有正相關那同時呢也分析說他們的"},{"start":535.057,"end":549.31,"text":"至少原因是非常多元和複雜的我想要知道說你們看到他全面上升15到64歲你們對於各年齡層他的原因的分析為何還有希望提供的解方為何"},{"start":550.865,"end":575.655,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心我想在割了14年我們14年前我們很高興因為我們當時很努力成立自殺防治中心那我也是右翼政治防治協會的創始的理事所以我們對這個部分能夠離開十大死刑室自殺能夠離開人世真的是非常高興那如今"},{"start":577.135,"end":599.05,"text":"又進來的話我們當然深切在檢討那因為我們這幾年已經很努力在心理健康支持譬如說在今年我們增加當然是從去年的可能是後半年我們增加了一個心理支持的一個年齡層這個成效都感覺蠻力度都很這蠻力度很高啦也應該有有他的成效"},{"start":600.471,"end":627.189,"text":"我這邊給你看一下滿意度很高沒錯但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的因此8月1號你們有舉辦了一個活動說要擴大他的年齡層所以我們又把它延伸到45歲這個8月1號的活動我也有去參加我認為我個人對這個支持算是很支持的但是你仔細觀察這個數據你看一下"},{"start":629.671,"end":654.704,"text":"你覺得要擴大人數所以一口氣我們增加了15歲喔可是你的平均月的服務量其實是減少的這個很奇怪你一口氣增加15歲應該是服務量能要增加才對結果你從以前的112年月均服務3000多人到現在最近月均是2189人是不是應該要去深究到底是為什麼因為"},{"start":655.865,"end":673.893,"text":"你剛剛講15到64歲你應該去分析一些raw data這些高齡者他有沒有跟慢性病有相關嗎他是性別的比例分布是如何等等他有沒有一些這個其他科別的就醫記錄這個都是你從衛福部的database很簡單可以抓出來的"},{"start":674.946,"end":696.967,"text":"好 包委員我們都是醫療人員我們知道我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生的題材來做相關的研究所以這樣的一個變化當然我們初步了解說像原來在COVID在裡面十大死因裡面當然現在當然跳到12那我們在腎臟各方面的疾病糖尿病後面的死亡率降低"},{"start":697.808,"end":716.75,"text":"所以變成第11個自殺就上線了當然這個絕對要檢討當然這個數目是等一下看市長有沒有這個部分的說明因為這個我們會很努力來做一定是看起來是有增加沒有啦實際上沒有增加"},{"start":719.412,"end":745.448,"text":"其實我們要心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣自殺防治是很複雜的所以我們也有通過在座很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法那個部分應該也要去更加的整體性的來落實我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該我們整體一起來做不是只有靠心理健康支持"},{"start":745.908,"end":771.604,"text":"不過這個部分人事的這個部分特別請那個代理市長回答一下市長可以簡單的講一下嗎跟委員報告我們的這個心理健康支持方案從去年的8月1號開始我們有擴大到這個我們服務的一個年齡但是除了心理健康師這邊推動的這個心理健康支持方案之外其實其他的部會也有在推動心理健康支持方案譬如說勞動部也有針對勞工的部分勞動部做得很不好"},{"start":771.744,"end":788.42,"text":"我已經諮詢過兩次國防部也有針對他的國軍的部分以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分所以說有關於這個心理健康支持的方案的話相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣的努力我們在不同的一個場域我們都是有持續的來做一個推動那至於說這個有關於這個"},{"start":791.983,"end":812.95,"text":"原因的部分的話剛剛那個委員有特別提到其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析那包含自殺死亡自殺通報跟我們心理健康支持的方案跟其他資料的這個串聯之後來做分析這個我們新建市也會持續的來做好那之後我也跟你追這個報告這邊也建議因為我也有在媒體上看到司長發言說"},{"start":814.631,"end":830.025,"text":"青少年的自殺並非單一的原因所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業工會合作加強在臉書Dcard等等使用率高的社群平台去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情"},{"start":830.746,"end":860.386,"text":"就是青少年現在使用AI的比例非常的高他們用AI成為他們的心理支持甚至呢今天的這個很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低所以這是一個網路上實際發生的狀況而這個母親已經提起了訴訟了他因為小孩本來就有這個憂鬱的傾向所以他跟一位AI機器人聊天聊天後呢他比較順著他的意思所以他最後就去執行了這件事情"},{"start":860.986,"end":883.524,"text":"所以我是希望衛福部可以去掌握到你對網路平台這樣子的宣導自殺防制可能你要跟著與時俱進加進AI的這個部分現在很多青少年是交了AI的男友或是女友還會甚至在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒說希望他們不要休假他要跟這個網路的男友女友一起跨年好 這個很重要的議題我們一定來演繹怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":889.244,"end":896.872,"text":"好那最後是想問一下有三個承諾也是很多人關心的第一就是我們的心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續會的會的"},{"start":900.336,"end":925.292,"text":"會繼續所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務再來這個針對通訊的諮商因為後來發現這個青少年他的可敬性也是很重要尤其是在晚上深夜或者是說有些比較內向的他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動是不是考慮可以增加這樣子的彈性去研擬"},{"start":927.923,"end":949.336,"text":"我想只要對人民的健康有幫助的方向我們一定來努力最後我會提醒您要在兩個月內給我一份書面報告因為剛有講青少年青生有三個原因還有潛在AI可能造成的風險再請您提供一份書面報告並不是只有心理支持方案可以去處理這些議題謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時56分）謝謝主席，謝謝各位委員，我們請邱部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我們今天要審查身障權法第五十三條，其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者，這個當然是很有必要，因為生理痛或是我們看不見、隱形的不舒服都需要座位，所以把它入法，本席認為是好的。但之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問，媒體有訪問您，為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等，您講到的一個理由是，你覺得這樣做可以體現社會的愛與包容，讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐，衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整，形成我們臺灣人愛與關懷的美好風景。但是我聽完你剛剛那一段的說法，聽起來好像比較像是博愛耶，因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思，博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷、友愛，還有同舟共濟的精神，社會成員之間的團結跟互助，反而不是要把它改為優先席，所以對於這個名稱，至今你有沒有什麼想法？"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員也是常到各國去，也很有經驗，像日本也是叫做priority，我想這個看起來是國際的一個趨勢，今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常好，我個人非常感動，你講得非常清楚。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：那個部分就是因為要避免產生一些不必要的困擾，所以改為priority seat這個部分先做起，這樣比較能夠按照實際上的需求，也不要互相在那邊引起不必要的爭議啦，真的讓有需要者可以坐。但是不要忘記，這樣的一個幫忙，這樣的一個體貼，還是存有體貼在裡面，愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的，所以精神不變，可是我們實務上讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧。"],["陳委員菁徽：等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的作法，等一下再跟部長一起討論。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們可以來討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：另外，也想知道說，現在有兩個版本，分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本，想要問部長，您的立場為何？你是想要刪除，或是您覺得可以不用刪除？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，今天如果是照多數委員的建議版本，如果它加進了其他有實際需求，其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺，它就等於包含了，也就是它是有一個例示性的效果，不管它將來是不是保留，未來在實際執行面的時候，都會以不管是可見或者這些隱形的需求者為使用的對象，所以等一下在討論的時候，可以尊重大家一些討論的方向。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我們先看一下現在很多國內、國外的作法，這是高鐵的作法，我們去查了高鐵官網上的介紹，說這個「博愛座」是禮讓年長者、懷孕，還有行動不便的旅客優先入座，並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給身心障礙人士。如果像剛剛司長講的，你們真的把這4個字從身權法裡面刪掉，您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎？還是保持原來這樣子？"],["邱部長泰源：如果我們大家針對這名詞已經有共識，我相信交通部的處理就會按照這樣的精神做整體的……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以針對這些圖示及網站上的解說，是要刪還是不要刪？"],["邱部長泰源：交通單位是會配合調整，我請呂次長說明。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的意見。其實我們在國外看到大概通常是priority seat，而priority的意思就是those in need，只要你有需求都可以坐，這第一個重點；第二個，在國外其實他們都會明列很多很多類似簡報上的這種圖示，不限於這三項，如果你去巴黎或是法蘭克福，我的印象大概會出現5到6種，但這只是個列示，列示主要是針對disability（身心障礙者）、pregnant（懷孕者），還有比較虛弱的老人，但是如果其他有需求者也都可以坐，所以按照各國的經驗，我們大概除了改名稱之外，priority seat英文沒問題嘛！我們現在只是改成「優先座」，但是列示的部分，我建議可以增加。"],["陳委員菁徽：你們要增加圖？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。可以增加圖片。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。部長，我們來看一下簡報，這個是北捷會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客，請聽廣播。","（播放音檔）"],["陳委員菁徽：這是在解釋禮讓給需要的旅客，他們的圖示及Q版標示，其實都有包含你們剛提到想要刪除的老弱婦孺，所以基本上你們剛講的是要增加圖示，還是有涵蓋原本的這四個項目嘛！因為不得不說，他們真的需求量比較高。","剛剛次長有提到巴黎及倫敦等等，我們來看其他國家，簡報左上角是日本名古屋機場電車優先席的圖示、左下角是韓國地鐵、右邊是英國倫敦地鐵，他們其實都有涵蓋老弱婦孺，但也許他們還有增加身心障礙者，他們有增加一個……"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["陳委員菁徽：尤其在日本還有增加身心障礙者，而原本的老弱婦都是被涵蓋進去的，所以有需求的人不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺，這個座位不應該變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架，我建議貴部是不是考量去做加法，而不是去做減法？因為與其把舊的東西刪除掉，而是應該去加強宣導實質的需求，讓全部的人有正確的觀念，是不是把這刪掉就可以把所有的紛爭隔除，你們真的是這樣覺得嗎？或者你們可以考慮加法的方式，增加擴充的文字以加強去宣導，你們覺得怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們尊重委員們的討論，加法看起來有一些先進國家也是用這樣方式在處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們到時候再來逐條討論，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。下一個問題，這個新聞想必在前兩週全國都非常的關注，因為國人前10名的死因已經很久沒有自殺，但到今年發現15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升，尤其大家又更在意的，像臺灣大學中信兒家研究中心有發現針對青少年輕生的比例，從2021年每10萬人是4.5人輕生上升到2023年每10萬人是7人輕生，臺大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現，青少年的輕生率上升與父母的離婚率增加、網路的使用率，還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關，就是有正相關，同時也分析他們的自殺原因是非常多元和複雜的，我想要知道你們看到15到64歲的自殺率全面上升，你們對於各年齡層自殺原因的分析為何？還有希望提供的解方為何？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員關心。我們在14年前，我們當時很努力成立了自殺防治中心，我也是憂鬱症防治協會創始的理事，所以我們對自殺能夠離開十大死因，真的是非常高興。如今又重回十大死因，我們當然深切在檢討，因為我們這幾年已經很努力在做心理健康支持，譬如從去年下半年，我們增加了心理支持的年齡層，感覺這個的滿意度都很高，也應該有它的成效。"],["陳委員菁徽：我這邊給你看一下，滿意度很高沒錯，但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的，因此你們在8月1日有舉辦了一個活動，說要擴大它的年齡層，所以你們又把它延伸到45歲，我也有去參加這個8月1日的活動，雖然我個人對這個健康支持方案是很支持，但是你仔細觀察這個數據，你看一下，你覺得要擴大人數，所以一口氣你們增加了15歲，可是平均每月的服務量其實是減少的，這個很奇怪，你們一口氣增加15歲，應該服務量能要增加才對，結果從112年月均服務三千多人到最近月均是2,189人，是不是應該要去深究到底為什麼？因為你剛剛講15到64歲，應該去分析一些raw data，這些高齡者有沒有跟慢性病有相關及性別的比例分布是如何等等，有沒有一些其他科別的就醫紀錄？這些都是可以從衛福部的database很簡單就可以抓出來的。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們都是醫療人員，我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生題材來做相關的研究，所以這樣的一個變化，當然我們初步了解，像原本在十大死因裡面的COVID-19，現在跳到12名，因為我們在腎臟各方面的疾病及糖尿病方面的死亡數有降低，所以變成原本排在第11名的自殺死因就往前了，當然這部分絕對要檢討，等一下看司長針對這個部分的數字有沒有要說明的？我們會很努力來做，服務人數看起來是有增加，但是真的……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有啦！實際上沒有增加。"],["邱部長泰源：其實我們對於心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣，自殺防治是很複雜的，它有很多的原因，所以我們在場的很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法，這個部分應該要整體性的來落實，我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該整體一起來做，不是只有靠心理健康支持。關於人數的部分，我可不可以請代理司長回答一下？"],["陳委員菁徽：司長可以簡單的講一下嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：跟委員報告，我們這個心理健康支持方案從去年8月1日開始有擴大我們服務的年齡。但是除了心理健康司推動的這個心理健康支持方案之外，其實其他的部會也有在推動心理健康支持方案，譬如勞動部有針對勞工的部分……"],["陳委員菁徽：勞動部做得很不好，我已經質詢過2次了。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：國防部也有針對他們的國軍的部分，以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分，所以有關於心理健康支持的方案，相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣在努力，我們在不同的場域都是有持續的推動。至於有關於原因的部分，剛剛委員有特別提到，其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析，包含自殺死亡、自殺通報，跟我們心理健康支持的方案及其他資料的串聯後來分析，這個我們心健司也會持續來做。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，之後我會跟你們追這個報告。這邊也建議，因為我有在媒體上看到司長發言表示，青少年的自殺並非單一的原因，所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業公會合作，加強在臉書、Dcard等等使用率高的社群平臺去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進。但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情，青少年現在使用AI的比例非常高，用AI成為他們的心理支持，甚至今天很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中，其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低。這是網路上實際發生的狀況，而這個母親已經提起訴訟，因為他的小孩本來就有憂鬱的傾向，他跟一位AI機器人聊天，聊天後AI比較順著他的意思，所以他最後就去執行了這件事情。我是希望衛福部可以去掌握對網路平臺的自殺防治宣導，可能你要與時俱進，加進AI的部分，現在很多青少年交了AI的男友或是女友，甚至還會在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒，希望他們不要休假，他要跟網路的男友、女友一起跨年。"],["邱部長泰源：這個是很重要的議題，我們一定來研議怎麼樣處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後想問一下，有3個承諾也是很多人關心的：第一，就是心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續？"],["邱部長泰源：會的、會的。"],["陳委員菁徽：會繼續，所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據，提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務。再來，針對通訊的諮商，因為後來發現青少年的可近性也是很重要，尤其是在晚上、深夜，或者是有些比較內向的，他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動，是不是考慮可以增加這樣的彈性去研擬？"],["邱部長泰源：只要是對人民的健康有幫助的方向，我們一定來努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後，提醒您要在兩個月內給我1份書面報告，因為剛剛有講，青少年輕生有3個原因，還有潛在AI可能造成的風險，再請您提供1份書面報告，並不是只有心理支持方案去處理這些議題，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}}