{"id":162769,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a67f38c050061154eb9483b76f331b600b1c1f5e093a47950ab3a0f130147b6495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:24:24 - 10:35:42","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T10:24:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T10:35:42+08:00","duration":678,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162769","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162769","tool":"pyannote","id":"162769-pyannote"},"job_id":"13jaKktpN9LJufBw","queued_at":"2025-06-23 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,854 --> 00:00:08,565\n好謝謝主席我們有請部長有請部長\n\n2\n00:00:16,603 --> 00:00:36,760\n今天要跟你討論有關於我們現在已經邁向超高齡的社會現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題根據長期照顧產學媒合平台統計現在1700多家長照機構提供住宿型服務床數大概是10萬多張\n\n3\n00:00:38,061 --> 00:01:07,378\n但是呢還短缺了一萬三千張的這樣的一個床這個是根據他們統計這樣子提出來的甚至有一些要排有些好一點的其實要排隊排很久所以針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的一個問題這個我要就教部長因為其實你可以看到這個家庭照顧關懷總會他們在113年底也做了一個調查未來的老人\n\n4\n00:01:07,978 --> 00:01:27,432\n他不見得都是希望家人或親友照顧在他希望理想型的這邊你看一下這個圖表藍色的這個未來其實有三成的這些老人家他是希望進到住宿型的機構如果這個機構是好的話相較於現在實際上入住比例是14%\n\n5\n00:01:28,733 --> 00:01:40,431\n它其實增加了將近16%所以面對未來的這個選擇它對於機構的選擇可能更高那我們的量可能要更多那這一部分不足的部分這個\n\n6\n00:01:41,568 --> 00:02:04,438\n會不會要怎麼樣來應應好謝謝委員的指教我想人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情做不到的我們一定都來努力那如果是這樣謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料我想我們都會密切的來注意希望想要在家裡就好好的在這裡照顧如果在機構這當然有更多複雜的裡面做調查其實\n\n7\n00:02:11,241 --> 00:02:28,487\n因為我過去在東京大學就在做論文就是做這一方面如果你在問一下他真正的心願到底要在家裡或在機構如果我人力夠的話他們就不一樣喔所以這個部分未來我們會再更精細的來了解但是anyway不管是在家裡在機構都要加強\n\n8\n00:02:29,227 --> 00:02:47,469\n是那我今天就要跟你討論的就是說我們現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟他的困境除了未來我們已經可以預見他的需求是會增加之外另外一個就是在人力的機構裡面的工作人員他的人力可不可以增加的部分\n\n9\n00:02:48,130 --> 00:03:15,578\n那我們可以看到現在在這個機構裡面你如果看到歷年這6年來的統計在機構裡面的工作人員的人數他都沒有成長甚至你看112年到113年他還微幅的下降所以在這一些住宿型機構裡面他的工作人員的缺工的問題其實也是他們在現場現在看到的那你如果未來還希望他提高量能你根本就沒有人\n\n10\n00:03:16,258 --> 00:03:38,381\n就沒有人就不會開出量了所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做去協助這些機構謝委員其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的那長照3.0也會針對一個機構式的一個照護給它更多的量能跟更努力啦那至於現在怎麼努力具體的這個部分請理事理事長幫我們回答\n\n11\n00:03:40,283 --> 00:03:52,070\n人力的部分你要怎麼去補報告委員我想曾路委員剛剛所說的這張圖我們現在目前的一個做法現在目前就是說我們會引進外籍中階勞動力因為最主要就是在機構這邊其實特別是有關於這個夜間因為要輪班那老實說\n\n12\n00:03:56,853 --> 00:04:09,207\n我們本國的居福源老說對這個部分是有一些就是大家比較不喜歡所以越建的部分我們現在目前就是從國外其實就是從越南新南向國家還有像這一個印尼等等引進這一個橋外生\n\n13\n00:04:11,610 --> 00:04:40,428\n不是引進他們的這個大概18歲然後你來這邊念二技之後呢你如果說在台灣你如果說能夠服務六年以上的話那你甚至還可以取得PermanentState就是那個永久居留權讓他們有一個誘因這是第一點另外第二點就是說中階勞動力他的薪資也比一般回來的更高一點好我想這個對於我們希望能夠用這個部分來那這部分你們有沒有預估過你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少\n\n14\n00:04:40,768 --> 00:04:47,351\n報告委員我們在去年已經在福音科技大學那邊我們現在先設了本來是要開兩班現在目前一班那今年我們現在目前在慈濟還有這個鴻光等等我們現在目前也新開了我們未來會來強化還有透過跟外交部還有跟勞動部這邊來合作趕快來從這一個我希望這一塊你們還是要持續去改善以你剛剛講的學校開一班兩班這個了不起就100個\n\n15\n00:05:09,503 --> 00:05:24,349\n對沒錯100個人在扣掉有意願從事的就幾十個沒錯幾十個跟未來這一個人力的需求恐怕那個落差還是是大的沒錯所以這一塊我是提早預警希望你們要儘早去準備光是你們現在設定的這樣的一個方案恐怕還是不足的對未來的這個量能的需求還是不足的接下來我要讓\n\n16\n00:05:31,352 --> 00:05:48,438\n你們看到的是現在的你們說已經升級到長照3.0那到底挹注在這個機構方面的資源你們有沒有真的3.0有沒有進一步去提升因為現在其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力是在做社區式的\n\n17\n00:05:49,899 --> 00:06:06,455\n這個居家室的但是在機構是這一方面呢你們過去一直都是比較是交給這個機構自行來營運負責從你的這個預算分配可以看得到你看你114年你在住宿型的機構的資源部件計畫只佔你總體經費的4.389%而已\n\n18\n00:06:10,359 --> 00:06:31,589\n比例其實非常的低那你後來有增加就是住宿型機構每個月補助一萬你這個部分呢佔了11.593%所以你就整體的你一年像114年你700多億當中你挹注在這種住宿型的機構的資源部件坦白講是偏低的在比例上是偏低的\n\n19\n00:06:31,969 --> 00:06:59,086\n因為你政策的關係但是我剛剛前面已經講了如果未來其實有些老人家他的選擇不見得都是在家裡他未來希望入住到機構你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質補充他的人力讓他有足夠的量能我覺得這個就是整個衛福部你應該要看到未來的趨勢你的整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布\n\n20\n00:06:59,673 --> 00:07:25,281\n因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人這個在外面開會他們就說政府對我們其實是沒有補助的就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙那所以這個未來在你的政策裡面是不是也應該去適時做一些調整無論是居家無論是社區無論是住宿型的機構都應該衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源\n\n21\n00:07:28,034 --> 00:07:42,314\n我非常同意委員的指導,尤其是我們現在目前就是特別在機構式的部分一直在跟他加強,也是長照3.0的一個重點之一\n\n22\n00:07:43,055 --> 00:08:07,785\n那過去幾年來的確我們無可否認在居家在社區方面先生耕那接下來把希望啟動的社區的資源來互相自助人彼此組織但是總是要需要機構這個部分最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強那這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點\n\n23\n00:08:09,005 --> 00:08:30,543\n你不曉得理事有沒有要補充簡單補充一下我那個三點補充第一個就是說就是供給我們現在這個機構的部分其實主要的供給面跟需求面需求面的部分現在目前就像陳委員剛剛說一個月一個月一萬第二個供給面的部分其實我們現在對於機構主要是它的品質提升包括它感染管控還有如果說你久任的話我們這邊其實長照基金這邊也會來補助來強化\n\n24\n00:08:33,425 --> 00:08:50,569\n他們的這個造福源他們的這個留任意願那我想對於機構的部分我們還有另外還有這個有關於這個智慧輔具的補助的部分我們現在目前也都在3.0這邊也會來推動因為其實輔具你把它引進之後對於造福源他的這個單位生產力還有品質也都會有很大的一個幫助\n\n25\n00:08:54,930 --> 00:09:24,274\n我是希望你们这一块要持续去强化然后最后我要讲的就是如果你还3.0然后你很多还要继续往上加服务还要增加然后你的支持要增加我必须坦白告诉卫福部你的钱是不够的你在114年你的基金来源跟基金用途其实已经呈现了短促的一个情况那其实很多专家学者已经预估过以台湾现在我们的高龄化的情况\n\n26\n00:09:25,014 --> 00:09:49,936\n你的長照基金每年的支出規模其實1000億了這個你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話就讓大家都有感覺得有受到支持跟幫助其實應該是1000億但是你可以看到你現在你的所有長照的基金來源他上上下下其實大概都達不到千億的規模你114年你還突然大幅下降\n\n27\n00:09:50,626 --> 00:10:17,700\n那今年看起來這個房地產狀況也不會很好這個政府的打房有某部分的成效所以你的這個基金將來會不足以支應你的開支那這一塊這個我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系就是你除了長照基金之外未來保險到底要不要開辦要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤那這件事情\n\n28\n00:10:19,881 --> 00:10:22,582\n我覺得你們不要把話說死了說絕對不開辦保險我覺得也蠻危險的因為未來的這個挑戰很大如果日本做不到我很難想像台灣我們為什麼可以做得到那所以這一塊我覺得你們現在是量入為出就是有在控那個經費的支出因為也知道這個經費有\n\n29\n00:10:41,638 --> 00:11:02,317\n基金來源也不是說水龍頭一打開遠遠不絕所以現在以量入為初的模式我看到的是還有一些服務其實還沒有到位一些該補助的其實還沒有所以這一塊我請部長你回去之後你們還是要好好的演繹就是說這個長照議題我們以後都會遇到了那所以在這個狀況底下怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系\n\n30\n00:11:06,460 --> 00:11:14,376\n我覺得這個要拋開一些框架就是真的好好來演繹怎麼做是最好的好不好好的好的好謝謝石穗文好謝謝王穗文謝謝部長次長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6854\t8565\t好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請部長\n16603\t36760\t今天要跟你討論有關於我們現在已經邁向超高齡的社會現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題根據長期照顧產學媒合平台統計現在1700多家長照機構提供住宿型服務床數大概是10萬多張\n38061\t67378\t但是呢還短缺了一萬三千張的這樣的一個床這個是根據他們統計這樣子提出來的甚至有一些要排有些好一點的其實要排隊排很久所以針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的一個問題這個我要就教部長因為其實你可以看到這個家庭照顧關懷總會他們在113年底也做了一個調查未來的老人\n67978\t87432\t他不見得都是希望家人或親友照顧在他希望理想型的這邊你看一下這個圖表藍色的這個未來其實有三成的這些老人家他是希望進到住宿型的機構如果這個機構是好的話相較於現在實際上入住比例是14%\n88733\t100431\t它其實增加了將近16%所以面對未來的這個選擇它對於機構的選擇可能更高那我們的量可能要更多那這一部分不足的部分這個\n101568\t124438\t會不會要怎麼樣來應應好謝謝委員的指教我想人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情做不到的我們一定都來努力那如果是這樣謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料我想我們都會密切的來注意希望想要在家裡就好好的在這裡照顧如果在機構這當然有更多複雜的裡面做調查其實\n131241\t148487\t因為我過去在東京大學就在做論文就是做這一方面如果你在問一下他真正的心願到底要在家裡或在機構如果我人力夠的話他們就不一樣喔所以這個部分未來我們會再更精細的來了解但是anyway不管是在家裡在機構都要加強\n149227\t167469\t是那我今天就要跟你討論的就是說我們現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟他的困境除了未來我們已經可以預見他的需求是會增加之外另外一個就是在人力的機構裡面的工作人員他的人力可不可以增加的部分\n168130\t195578\t那我們可以看到現在在這個機構裡面你如果看到歷年這6年來的統計在機構裡面的工作人員的人數他都沒有成長甚至你看112年到113年他還微幅的下降所以在這一些住宿型機構裡面他的工作人員的缺工的問題其實也是他們在現場現在看到的那你如果未來還希望他提高量能你根本就沒有人\n196258\t218381\t就沒有人就不會開出量了所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做去協助這些機構謝委員其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的那長照3.0也會針對一個機構式的一個照護給它更多的量能跟更努力啦那至於現在怎麼努力具體的這個部分請理事理事長幫我們回答\n220283\t232070\t人力的部分你要怎麼去補報告委員我想曾路委員剛剛所說的這張圖我們現在目前的一個做法現在目前就是說我們會引進外籍中階勞動力因為最主要就是在機構這邊其實特別是有關於這個夜間因為要輪班那老實說\n236853\t249207\t我們本國的居福源老說對這個部分是有一些就是大家比較不喜歡所以越建的部分我們現在目前就是從國外其實就是從越南 新南向國家還有像這一個印尼等等引進這一個橋外生\n251610\t280428\t不是 引進他們的這個大概18歲然後你來這邊念二技之後呢你如果說在台灣你如果說能夠服務六年以上的話那你甚至還可以取得Permanent State就是那個永久居留權讓他們有一個誘因這是第一點另外第二點就是說中階勞動力他的薪資也比一般回來的更高一點好 我想這個對於我們希望能夠用這個部分來那這部分你們有沒有預估過你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少\n280768\t287351\t報告委員我們在去年已經在福音科技大學那邊我們現在先設了本來是要開兩班現在目前一班那今年我們現在目前在慈濟還有這個鴻光等等我們現在目前也新開了我們未來會來強化還有透過跟外交部還有跟勞動部這邊來合作趕快來從這一個我希望這一塊你們還是要持續去改善以你剛剛講的學校開一班兩班這個了不起就100個\n309503\t324349\t對沒錯100個人在扣掉有意願從事的就幾十個沒錯幾十個跟未來這一個人力的需求恐怕那個落差還是是大的沒錯所以這一塊我是提早預警希望你們要儘早去準備光是你們現在設定的這樣的一個方案恐怕還是不足的對未來的這個量能的需求還是不足的接下來我要讓\n331352\t348438\t你們看到的是現在的你們說已經升級到長照3.0那到底挹注在這個機構方面的資源你們有沒有真的3.0有沒有進一步去提升因為現在其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力是在做社區式的\n349899\t366455\t這個居家室的但是在機構是這一方面呢你們過去一直都是比較是交給這個機構自行來營運負責從你的這個預算分配可以看得到你看你114年你在住宿型的機構的資源部件計畫只佔你總體經費的4.389%而已\n370359\t391589\t比例其實非常的低那你後來有增加就是住宿型機構每個月補助一萬你這個部分呢佔了11.593%所以你就整體的你一年像114年你700多億當中你挹注在這種住宿型的機構的資源部件坦白講是偏低的在比例上是偏低的\n391969\t419086\t因為你政策的關係但是我剛剛前面已經講了如果未來其實有些老人家他的選擇不見得都是在家裡他未來希望入住到機構你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質補充他的人力讓他有足夠的量能我覺得這個就是整個衛福部你應該要看到未來的趨勢你的整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布\n419673\t445281\t因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人這個在外面開會他們就說政府對我們其實是沒有補助的就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙那所以這個未來在你的政策裡面是不是也應該去適時做一些調整無論是居家無論是社區無論是住宿型的機構都應該衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源\n448034\t462314\t我非常同意委員的指導,尤其是我們現在目前就是特別在機構式的部分一直在跟他加強,也是長照3.0的一個重點之一\n463055\t487785\t那過去幾年來的確我們無可否認在居家在社區方面先生耕那接下來把希望啟動的社區的資源來互相自助人彼此組織但是總是要需要機構這個部分最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強那這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點\n489005\t510543\t你不曉得理事有沒有要補充 簡單補充一下我那個三點補充 第一個就是說就是供給 我們現在這個機構的部分其實主要的供給面跟需求面需求面的部分 現在目前就像陳委員剛剛說一個月一個月一萬 第二個供給面的部分其實我們現在對於機構主要是它的品質提升包括它感染管控 還有如果說你久任的話我們這邊其實長照基金這邊也會來補助 來強化\n513425\t530569\t他們的這個造福源他們的這個留任意願那我想對於機構的部分我們還有另外還有這個有關於這個智慧輔具的補助的部分我們現在目前也都在3.0這邊也會來推動因為其實輔具你把它引進之後對於造福源他的這個單位生產力還有品質也都會有很大的一個幫助\n534930\t564274\t我是希望你们这一块要持续去强化然后最后我要讲的就是如果你还3.0然后你很多还要继续往上加服务还要增加然后你的支持要增加我必须坦白告诉卫福部你的钱是不够的你在114年你的基金来源跟基金用途其实已经呈现了短促的一个情况那其实很多专家学者已经预估过以台湾现在我们的高龄化的情况\n565014\t589936\t你的長照基金每年的支出規模其實1000億了這個你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話就讓大家都有感覺得有受到支持跟幫助其實應該是1000億但是你可以看到你現在你的所有長照的基金來源他上上下下其實大概都達不到千億的規模你114年你還突然大幅下降\n590626\t617700\t那今年看起來這個房地產狀況也不會很好這個政府的打房有某部分的成效所以你的這個基金將來會不足以支應你的開支那這一塊這個我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系就是你除了長照基金之外未來保險到底要不要開辦要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤那這件事情\n619881\t622582\t我覺得你們不要把話說死了說絕對不開辦保險我覺得也蠻危險的因為未來的這個挑戰很大如果日本做不到我很難想像台灣我們為什麼可以做得到那所以這一塊我覺得你們現在是量入為出就是有在控那個經費的支出因為也知道這個經費有\n641638\t662317\t基金來源也不是說水龍頭一打開遠遠不絕所以現在以量入為初的模式我看到的是還有一些服務其實還沒有到位一些該補助的其實還沒有所以這一塊我請部長你回去之後你們還是要好好的演繹就是說這個長照議題我們以後都會遇到了那所以在這個狀況底下怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系\n666460\t674376\t我覺得這個要拋開一些框架就是真的好好來演繹怎麼做是最好的 好不好好的 好的好 謝謝 石穗文好 謝謝王穗文 謝謝部長 次長\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請部長\n今天要跟你討論有關於我們現在已經邁向超高齡的社會現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題根據長期照顧產學媒合平台統計現在1700多家長照機構提供住宿型服務床數大概是10萬多張\n但是呢還短缺了一萬三千張的這樣的一個床這個是根據他們統計這樣子提出來的甚至有一些要排有些好一點的其實要排隊排很久所以針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的一個問題這個我要就教部長因為其實你可以看到這個家庭照顧關懷總會他們在113年底也做了一個調查未來的老人\n他不見得都是希望家人或親友照顧在他希望理想型的這邊你看一下這個圖表藍色的這個未來其實有三成的這些老人家他是希望進到住宿型的機構如果這個機構是好的話相較於現在實際上入住比例是14%\n它其實增加了將近16%所以面對未來的這個選擇它對於機構的選擇可能更高那我們的量可能要更多那這一部分不足的部分這個\n會不會要怎麼樣來應應好謝謝委員的指教我想人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情做不到的我們一定都來努力那如果是這樣謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料我想我們都會密切的來注意希望想要在家裡就好好的在這裡照顧如果在機構這當然有更多複雜的裡面做調查其實\n因為我過去在東京大學就在做論文就是做這一方面如果你在問一下他真正的心願到底要在家裡或在機構如果我人力夠的話他們就不一樣喔所以這個部分未來我們會再更精細的來了解但是anyway不管是在家裡在機構都要加強\n是那我今天就要跟你討論的就是說我們現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟他的困境除了未來我們已經可以預見他的需求是會增加之外另外一個就是在人力的機構裡面的工作人員他的人力可不可以增加的部分\n那我們可以看到現在在這個機構裡面你如果看到歷年這6年來的統計在機構裡面的工作人員的人數他都沒有成長甚至你看112年到113年他還微幅的下降所以在這一些住宿型機構裡面他的工作人員的缺工的問題其實也是他們在現場現在看到的那你如果未來還希望他提高量能你根本就沒有人\n就沒有人就不會開出量了所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做去協助這些機構謝委員其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的那長照3.0也會針對一個機構式的一個照護給它更多的量能跟更努力啦那至於現在怎麼努力具體的這個部分請理事理事長幫我們回答\n人力的部分你要怎麼去補報告委員我想曾路委員剛剛所說的這張圖我們現在目前的一個做法現在目前就是說我們會引進外籍中階勞動力因為最主要就是在機構這邊其實特別是有關於這個夜間因為要輪班那老實說\n我們本國的居福源老說對這個部分是有一些就是大家比較不喜歡所以越建的部分我們現在目前就是從國外其實就是從越南 新南向國家還有像這一個印尼等等引進這一個橋外生\n不是 引進他們的這個大概18歲然後你來這邊念二技之後呢你如果說在台灣你如果說能夠服務六年以上的話那你甚至還可以取得Permanent State就是那個永久居留權讓他們有一個誘因這是第一點另外第二點就是說中階勞動力他的薪資也比一般回來的更高一點好 我想這個對於我們希望能夠用這個部分來那這部分你們有沒有預估過你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少\n報告委員我們在去年已經在福音科技大學那邊我們現在先設了本來是要開兩班現在目前一班那今年我們現在目前在慈濟還有這個鴻光等等我們現在目前也新開了我們未來會來強化還有透過跟外交部還有跟勞動部這邊來合作趕快來從這一個我希望這一塊你們還是要持續去改善以你剛剛講的學校開一班兩班這個了不起就100個\n對沒錯100個人在扣掉有意願從事的就幾十個沒錯幾十個跟未來這一個人力的需求恐怕那個落差還是是大的沒錯所以這一塊我是提早預警希望你們要儘早去準備光是你們現在設定的這樣的一個方案恐怕還是不足的對未來的這個量能的需求還是不足的接下來我要讓\n你們看到的是現在的你們說已經升級到長照3.0那到底挹注在這個機構方面的資源你們有沒有真的3.0有沒有進一步去提升因為現在其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力是在做社區式的\n這個居家室的但是在機構是這一方面呢你們過去一直都是比較是交給這個機構自行來營運負責從你的這個預算分配可以看得到你看你114年你在住宿型的機構的資源部件計畫只佔你總體經費的4.389%而已\n比例其實非常的低那你後來有增加就是住宿型機構每個月補助一萬你這個部分呢佔了11.593%所以你就整體的你一年像114年你700多億當中你挹注在這種住宿型的機構的資源部件坦白講是偏低的在比例上是偏低的\n因為你政策的關係但是我剛剛前面已經講了如果未來其實有些老人家他的選擇不見得都是在家裡他未來希望入住到機構你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質補充他的人力讓他有足夠的量能我覺得這個就是整個衛福部你應該要看到未來的趨勢你的整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布\n因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人這個在外面開會他們就說政府對我們其實是沒有補助的就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙那所以這個未來在你的政策裡面是不是也應該去適時做一些調整無論是居家無論是社區無論是住宿型的機構都應該衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源\n我非常同意委員的指導,尤其是我們現在目前就是特別在機構式的部分一直在跟他加強,也是長照3.0的一個重點之一\n那過去幾年來的確我們無可否認在居家在社區方面先生耕那接下來把希望啟動的社區的資源來互相自助人彼此組織但是總是要需要機構這個部分最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強那這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點\n你不曉得理事有沒有要補充 簡單補充一下我那個三點補充 第一個就是說就是供給 我們現在這個機構的部分其實主要的供給面跟需求面需求面的部分 現在目前就像陳委員剛剛說一個月一個月一萬 第二個供給面的部分其實我們現在對於機構主要是它的品質提升包括它感染管控 還有如果說你久任的話我們這邊其實長照基金這邊也會來補助 來強化\n他們的這個造福源他們的這個留任意願那我想對於機構的部分我們還有另外還有這個有關於這個智慧輔具的補助的部分我們現在目前也都在3.0這邊也會來推動因為其實輔具你把它引進之後對於造福源他的這個單位生產力還有品質也都會有很大的一個幫助\n我是希望你们这一块要持续去强化然后最后我要讲的就是如果你还3.0然后你很多还要继续往上加服务还要增加然后你的支持要增加我必须坦白告诉卫福部你的钱是不够的你在114年你的基金来源跟基金用途其实已经呈现了短促的一个情况那其实很多专家学者已经预估过以台湾现在我们的高龄化的情况\n你的長照基金每年的支出規模其實1000億了這個你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話就讓大家都有感覺得有受到支持跟幫助其實應該是1000億但是你可以看到你現在你的所有長照的基金來源他上上下下其實大概都達不到千億的規模你114年你還突然大幅下降\n那今年看起來這個房地產狀況也不會很好這個政府的打房有某部分的成效所以你的這個基金將來會不足以支應你的開支那這一塊這個我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系就是你除了長照基金之外未來保險到底要不要開辦要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤那這件事情\n我覺得你們不要把話說死了說絕對不開辦保險我覺得也蠻危險的因為未來的這個挑戰很大如果日本做不到我很難想像台灣我們為什麼可以做得到那所以這一塊我覺得你們現在是量入為出就是有在控那個經費的支出因為也知道這個經費有\n基金來源也不是說水龍頭一打開遠遠不絕所以現在以量入為初的模式我看到的是還有一些服務其實還沒有到位一些該補助的其實還沒有所以這一塊我請部長你回去之後你們還是要好好的演繹就是說這個長照議題我們以後都會遇到了那所以在這個狀況底下怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系\n我覺得這個要拋開一些框架就是真的好好來演繹怎麼做是最好的 好不好好的 好的好 謝謝 石穗文好 謝謝王穗文 謝謝部長 次長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.854 --> 00:08.565\n好謝謝主席我們有請部長有請部長\n\n00:16.603 --> 00:36.760\n今天要跟你討論有關於我們現在已經邁向超高齡的社會現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題根據長期照顧產學媒合平台統計現在1700多家長照機構提供住宿型服務床數大概是10萬多張\n\n00:38.061 --> 01:07.378\n但是呢還短缺了一萬三千張的這樣的一個床這個是根據他們統計這樣子提出來的甚至有一些要排有些好一點的其實要排隊排很久所以針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的一個問題這個我要就教部長因為其實你可以看到這個家庭照顧關懷總會他們在113年底也做了一個調查未來的老人\n\n01:07.978 --> 01:27.432\n他不見得都是希望家人或親友照顧在他希望理想型的這邊你看一下這個圖表藍色的這個未來其實有三成的這些老人家他是希望進到住宿型的機構如果這個機構是好的話相較於現在實際上入住比例是14%\n\n01:28.733 --> 01:40.431\n它其實增加了將近16%所以面對未來的這個選擇它對於機構的選擇可能更高那我們的量可能要更多那這一部分不足的部分這個\n\n01:41.568 --> 02:04.438\n會不會要怎麼樣來應應好謝謝委員的指教我想人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情做不到的我們一定都來努力那如果是這樣謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料我想我們都會密切的來注意希望想要在家裡就好好的在這裡照顧如果在機構這當然有更多複雜的裡面做調查其實\n\n02:11.241 --> 02:28.487\n因為我過去在東京大學就在做論文就是做這一方面如果你在問一下他真正的心願到底要在家裡或在機構如果我人力夠的話他們就不一樣喔所以這個部分未來我們會再更精細的來了解但是anyway不管是在家裡在機構都要加強\n\n02:29.227 --> 02:47.469\n是那我今天就要跟你討論的就是說我們現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟他的困境除了未來我們已經可以預見他的需求是會增加之外另外一個就是在人力的機構裡面的工作人員他的人力可不可以增加的部分\n\n02:48.130 --> 03:15.578\n那我們可以看到現在在這個機構裡面你如果看到歷年這6年來的統計在機構裡面的工作人員的人數他都沒有成長甚至你看112年到113年他還微幅的下降所以在這一些住宿型機構裡面他的工作人員的缺工的問題其實也是他們在現場現在看到的那你如果未來還希望他提高量能你根本就沒有人\n\n03:16.258 --> 03:38.381\n就沒有人就不會開出量了所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做去協助這些機構謝委員其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的那長照3.0也會針對一個機構式的一個照護給它更多的量能跟更努力啦那至於現在怎麼努力具體的這個部分請理事理事長幫我們回答\n\n03:40.283 --> 03:52.070\n人力的部分你要怎麼去補報告委員我想曾路委員剛剛所說的這張圖我們現在目前的一個做法現在目前就是說我們會引進外籍中階勞動力因為最主要就是在機構這邊其實特別是有關於這個夜間因為要輪班那老實說\n\n03:56.853 --> 04:09.207\n我們本國的居福源老說對這個部分是有一些就是大家比較不喜歡所以越建的部分我們現在目前就是從國外其實就是從越南新南向國家還有像這一個印尼等等引進這一個橋外生\n\n04:11.610 --> 04:40.428\n不是引進他們的這個大概18歲然後你來這邊念二技之後呢你如果說在台灣你如果說能夠服務六年以上的話那你甚至還可以取得PermanentState就是那個永久居留權讓他們有一個誘因這是第一點另外第二點就是說中階勞動力他的薪資也比一般回來的更高一點好我想這個對於我們希望能夠用這個部分來那這部分你們有沒有預估過你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少\n\n04:40.768 --> 04:47.351\n報告委員我們在去年已經在福音科技大學那邊我們現在先設了本來是要開兩班現在目前一班那今年我們現在目前在慈濟還有這個鴻光等等我們現在目前也新開了我們未來會來強化還有透過跟外交部還有跟勞動部這邊來合作趕快來從這一個我希望這一塊你們還是要持續去改善以你剛剛講的學校開一班兩班這個了不起就100個\n\n05:09.503 --> 05:24.349\n對沒錯100個人在扣掉有意願從事的就幾十個沒錯幾十個跟未來這一個人力的需求恐怕那個落差還是是大的沒錯所以這一塊我是提早預警希望你們要儘早去準備光是你們現在設定的這樣的一個方案恐怕還是不足的對未來的這個量能的需求還是不足的接下來我要讓\n\n05:31.352 --> 05:48.438\n你們看到的是現在的你們說已經升級到長照3.0那到底挹注在這個機構方面的資源你們有沒有真的3.0有沒有進一步去提升因為現在其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力是在做社區式的\n\n05:49.899 --> 06:06.455\n這個居家室的但是在機構是這一方面呢你們過去一直都是比較是交給這個機構自行來營運負責從你的這個預算分配可以看得到你看你114年你在住宿型的機構的資源部件計畫只佔你總體經費的4.389%而已\n\n06:10.359 --> 06:31.589\n比例其實非常的低那你後來有增加就是住宿型機構每個月補助一萬你這個部分呢佔了11.593%所以你就整體的你一年像114年你700多億當中你挹注在這種住宿型的機構的資源部件坦白講是偏低的在比例上是偏低的\n\n06:31.969 --> 06:59.086\n因為你政策的關係但是我剛剛前面已經講了如果未來其實有些老人家他的選擇不見得都是在家裡他未來希望入住到機構你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質補充他的人力讓他有足夠的量能我覺得這個就是整個衛福部你應該要看到未來的趨勢你的整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布\n\n06:59.673 --> 07:25.281\n因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人這個在外面開會他們就說政府對我們其實是沒有補助的就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙那所以這個未來在你的政策裡面是不是也應該去適時做一些調整無論是居家無論是社區無論是住宿型的機構都應該衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源\n\n07:28.034 --> 07:42.314\n我非常同意委員的指導,尤其是我們現在目前就是特別在機構式的部分一直在跟他加強,也是長照3.0的一個重點之一\n\n07:43.055 --> 08:07.785\n那過去幾年來的確我們無可否認在居家在社區方面先生耕那接下來把希望啟動的社區的資源來互相自助人彼此組織但是總是要需要機構這個部分最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強那這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點\n\n08:09.005 --> 08:30.543\n你不曉得理事有沒有要補充簡單補充一下我那個三點補充第一個就是說就是供給我們現在這個機構的部分其實主要的供給面跟需求面需求面的部分現在目前就像陳委員剛剛說一個月一個月一萬第二個供給面的部分其實我們現在對於機構主要是它的品質提升包括它感染管控還有如果說你久任的話我們這邊其實長照基金這邊也會來補助來強化\n\n08:33.425 --> 08:50.569\n他們的這個造福源他們的這個留任意願那我想對於機構的部分我們還有另外還有這個有關於這個智慧輔具的補助的部分我們現在目前也都在3.0這邊也會來推動因為其實輔具你把它引進之後對於造福源他的這個單位生產力還有品質也都會有很大的一個幫助\n\n08:54.930 --> 09:24.274\n我是希望你们这一块要持续去强化然后最后我要讲的就是如果你还3.0然后你很多还要继续往上加服务还要增加然后你的支持要增加我必须坦白告诉卫福部你的钱是不够的你在114年你的基金来源跟基金用途其实已经呈现了短促的一个情况那其实很多专家学者已经预估过以台湾现在我们的高龄化的情况\n\n09:25.014 --> 09:49.936\n你的長照基金每年的支出規模其實1000億了這個你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話就讓大家都有感覺得有受到支持跟幫助其實應該是1000億但是你可以看到你現在你的所有長照的基金來源他上上下下其實大概都達不到千億的規模你114年你還突然大幅下降\n\n09:50.626 --> 10:17.700\n那今年看起來這個房地產狀況也不會很好這個政府的打房有某部分的成效所以你的這個基金將來會不足以支應你的開支那這一塊這個我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系就是你除了長照基金之外未來保險到底要不要開辦要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤那這件事情\n\n10:19.881 --> 10:22.582\n我覺得你們不要把話說死了說絕對不開辦保險我覺得也蠻危險的因為未來的這個挑戰很大如果日本做不到我很難想像台灣我們為什麼可以做得到那所以這一塊我覺得你們現在是量入為出就是有在控那個經費的支出因為也知道這個經費有\n\n10:41.638 --> 11:02.317\n基金來源也不是說水龍頭一打開遠遠不絕所以現在以量入為初的模式我看到的是還有一些服務其實還沒有到位一些該補助的其實還沒有所以這一塊我請部長你回去之後你們還是要好好的演繹就是說這個長照議題我們以後都會遇到了那所以在這個狀況底下怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系\n\n11:06.460 --> 11:14.376\n我覺得這個要拋開一些框架就是真的好好來演繹怎麼做是最好的好不好好的好的好謝謝石穗文好謝謝王穗文謝謝部長次長\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.854,"end":8.565,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請部長"},{"start":16.603,"end":36.76,"text":"今天要跟你討論有關於我們現在已經邁向超高齡的社會現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題根據長期照顧產學媒合平台統計現在1700多家長照機構提供住宿型服務床數大概是10萬多張"},{"start":38.061,"end":67.378,"text":"但是呢還短缺了一萬三千張的這樣的一個床這個是根據他們統計這樣子提出來的甚至有一些要排有些好一點的其實要排隊排很久所以針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的一個問題這個我要就教部長因為其實你可以看到這個家庭照顧關懷總會他們在113年底也做了一個調查未來的老人"},{"start":67.978,"end":87.432,"text":"他不見得都是希望家人或親友照顧在他希望理想型的這邊你看一下這個圖表藍色的這個未來其實有三成的這些老人家他是希望進到住宿型的機構如果這個機構是好的話相較於現在實際上入住比例是14%"},{"start":88.733,"end":100.431,"text":"它其實增加了將近16%所以面對未來的這個選擇它對於機構的選擇可能更高那我們的量可能要更多那這一部分不足的部分這個"},{"start":101.568,"end":124.438,"text":"會不會要怎麼樣來應應好謝謝委員的指教我想人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情做不到的我們一定都來努力那如果是這樣謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料我想我們都會密切的來注意希望想要在家裡就好好的在這裡照顧如果在機構這當然有更多複雜的裡面做調查其實"},{"start":131.241,"end":148.487,"text":"因為我過去在東京大學就在做論文就是做這一方面如果你在問一下他真正的心願到底要在家裡或在機構如果我人力夠的話他們就不一樣喔所以這個部分未來我們會再更精細的來了解但是anyway不管是在家裡在機構都要加強"},{"start":149.227,"end":167.469,"text":"是那我今天就要跟你討論的就是說我們現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟他的困境除了未來我們已經可以預見他的需求是會增加之外另外一個就是在人力的機構裡面的工作人員他的人力可不可以增加的部分"},{"start":168.13,"end":195.578,"text":"那我們可以看到現在在這個機構裡面你如果看到歷年這6年來的統計在機構裡面的工作人員的人數他都沒有成長甚至你看112年到113年他還微幅的下降所以在這一些住宿型機構裡面他的工作人員的缺工的問題其實也是他們在現場現在看到的那你如果未來還希望他提高量能你根本就沒有人"},{"start":196.258,"end":218.381,"text":"就沒有人就不會開出量了所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做去協助這些機構謝委員其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的那長照3.0也會針對一個機構式的一個照護給它更多的量能跟更努力啦那至於現在怎麼努力具體的這個部分請理事理事長幫我們回答"},{"start":220.283,"end":232.07,"text":"人力的部分你要怎麼去補報告委員我想曾路委員剛剛所說的這張圖我們現在目前的一個做法現在目前就是說我們會引進外籍中階勞動力因為最主要就是在機構這邊其實特別是有關於這個夜間因為要輪班那老實說"},{"start":236.853,"end":249.207,"text":"我們本國的居福源老說對這個部分是有一些就是大家比較不喜歡所以越建的部分我們現在目前就是從國外其實就是從越南 新南向國家還有像這一個印尼等等引進這一個橋外生"},{"start":251.61,"end":280.428,"text":"不是 引進他們的這個大概18歲然後你來這邊念二技之後呢你如果說在台灣你如果說能夠服務六年以上的話那你甚至還可以取得Permanent State就是那個永久居留權讓他們有一個誘因這是第一點另外第二點就是說中階勞動力他的薪資也比一般回來的更高一點好 我想這個對於我們希望能夠用這個部分來那這部分你們有沒有預估過你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少"},{"start":280.768,"end":287.351,"text":"報告委員我們在去年已經在福音科技大學那邊我們現在先設了本來是要開兩班現在目前一班那今年我們現在目前在慈濟還有這個鴻光等等我們現在目前也新開了我們未來會來強化還有透過跟外交部還有跟勞動部這邊來合作趕快來從這一個我希望這一塊你們還是要持續去改善以你剛剛講的學校開一班兩班這個了不起就100個"},{"start":309.503,"end":324.349,"text":"對沒錯100個人在扣掉有意願從事的就幾十個沒錯幾十個跟未來這一個人力的需求恐怕那個落差還是是大的沒錯所以這一塊我是提早預警希望你們要儘早去準備光是你們現在設定的這樣的一個方案恐怕還是不足的對未來的這個量能的需求還是不足的接下來我要讓"},{"start":331.352,"end":348.438,"text":"你們看到的是現在的你們說已經升級到長照3.0那到底挹注在這個機構方面的資源你們有沒有真的3.0有沒有進一步去提升因為現在其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力是在做社區式的"},{"start":349.899,"end":366.455,"text":"這個居家室的但是在機構是這一方面呢你們過去一直都是比較是交給這個機構自行來營運負責從你的這個預算分配可以看得到你看你114年你在住宿型的機構的資源部件計畫只佔你總體經費的4.389%而已"},{"start":370.359,"end":391.589,"text":"比例其實非常的低那你後來有增加就是住宿型機構每個月補助一萬你這個部分呢佔了11.593%所以你就整體的你一年像114年你700多億當中你挹注在這種住宿型的機構的資源部件坦白講是偏低的在比例上是偏低的"},{"start":391.969,"end":419.086,"text":"因為你政策的關係但是我剛剛前面已經講了如果未來其實有些老人家他的選擇不見得都是在家裡他未來希望入住到機構你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質補充他的人力讓他有足夠的量能我覺得這個就是整個衛福部你應該要看到未來的趨勢你的整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布"},{"start":419.673,"end":445.281,"text":"因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人這個在外面開會他們就說政府對我們其實是沒有補助的就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙那所以這個未來在你的政策裡面是不是也應該去適時做一些調整無論是居家無論是社區無論是住宿型的機構都應該衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源"},{"start":448.034,"end":462.314,"text":"我非常同意委員的指導,尤其是我們現在目前就是特別在機構式的部分一直在跟他加強,也是長照3.0的一個重點之一"},{"start":463.055,"end":487.785,"text":"那過去幾年來的確我們無可否認在居家在社區方面先生耕那接下來把希望啟動的社區的資源來互相自助人彼此組織但是總是要需要機構這個部分最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強那這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點"},{"start":489.005,"end":510.543,"text":"你不曉得理事有沒有要補充 簡單補充一下我那個三點補充 第一個就是說就是供給 我們現在這個機構的部分其實主要的供給面跟需求面需求面的部分 現在目前就像陳委員剛剛說一個月一個月一萬 第二個供給面的部分其實我們現在對於機構主要是它的品質提升包括它感染管控 還有如果說你久任的話我們這邊其實長照基金這邊也會來補助 來強化"},{"start":513.425,"end":530.569,"text":"他們的這個造福源他們的這個留任意願那我想對於機構的部分我們還有另外還有這個有關於這個智慧輔具的補助的部分我們現在目前也都在3.0這邊也會來推動因為其實輔具你把它引進之後對於造福源他的這個單位生產力還有品質也都會有很大的一個幫助"},{"start":534.93,"end":564.274,"text":"我是希望你们这一块要持续去强化然后最后我要讲的就是如果你还3.0然后你很多还要继续往上加服务还要增加然后你的支持要增加我必须坦白告诉卫福部你的钱是不够的你在114年你的基金来源跟基金用途其实已经呈现了短促的一个情况那其实很多专家学者已经预估过以台湾现在我们的高龄化的情况"},{"start":565.014,"end":589.936,"text":"你的長照基金每年的支出規模其實1000億了這個你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話就讓大家都有感覺得有受到支持跟幫助其實應該是1000億但是你可以看到你現在你的所有長照的基金來源他上上下下其實大概都達不到千億的規模你114年你還突然大幅下降"},{"start":590.626,"end":617.7,"text":"那今年看起來這個房地產狀況也不會很好這個政府的打房有某部分的成效所以你的這個基金將來會不足以支應你的開支那這一塊這個我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系就是你除了長照基金之外未來保險到底要不要開辦要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤那這件事情"},{"start":619.881,"end":622.582,"text":"我覺得你們不要把話說死了說絕對不開辦保險我覺得也蠻危險的因為未來的這個挑戰很大如果日本做不到我很難想像台灣我們為什麼可以做得到那所以這一塊我覺得你們現在是量入為出就是有在控那個經費的支出因為也知道這個經費有"},{"start":641.638,"end":662.317,"text":"基金來源也不是說水龍頭一打開遠遠不絕所以現在以量入為初的模式我看到的是還有一些服務其實還沒有到位一些該補助的其實還沒有所以這一塊我請部長你回去之後你們還是要好好的演繹就是說這個長照議題我們以後都會遇到了那所以在這個狀況底下怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系"},{"start":666.46,"end":674.376,"text":"我覺得這個要拋開一些框架就是真的好好來演繹怎麼做是最好的 好不好好的 好的好 謝謝 石穗文好 謝謝王穗文 謝謝部長 次長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":664,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時24分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。今天要跟你討論有關我們已經邁向超高齡社會，現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題。根據長期照顧產學媒合平臺統計，現在有一千七百多家長照機構提供住宿型服務，床數大概是十萬多張，但還是短缺1萬3,000張床，這是他們的統計提出的，甚至有一些好一點的要排隊排很久。針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的問題，我要就教部長，你可以看到家庭照顧者關懷總會在113年底也做了一個調查，未來老人不見得都希望由家人或親友照顧，在他的希望、理想型，你看一下這個圖表，藍色的部分顯示未來有三成的老人家希望進到住宿型機構，如果機構是好的話。相較於現在實際入住比例14%，增加了將近16%，所以未來選擇機構的比例可能更高，量能可能要更多。針對不足的部分，衛福部要怎麼樣來因應？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教。人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情，至於做不到的，我們一定都來努力。謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料，我們都會密切注意，想要在家裡被照顧的，就好好在家裡被照顧；如果想在機構……這裡面當然有更多複雜的因素。因為我過去在東京大學寫的論文就是這方面，如果再問一下他真正的心願，到底是要在家裡或在機構，人力夠的話，他們的答案就不一樣，所以這個部分未來我們會更精細來了解。但是、anyway，不管是在家裡或機構，都要加強。"],["王委員育敏：是，我今天跟你討論的就是現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟困境，除了未來我們已經可以預見需求會增加之外，另外一個就是在機構裡面的工作人員，人力可不可以增加的部分。如果看這6年來的統計，機構裡面的工作人員人數都沒有成長，甚至你看112年到113年還微幅下降，所以這一些住宿型機構缺工的問題，其實也是現在他們在現場所看到的。如果未來還希望它提高量能，卻根本就沒有人，而沒有人就不會開出量，所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做，好去協助這些機構？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的，長照3.0也會針對機構式的照護給更多的量能跟努力。至於現在怎麼努力，請呂次長幫我回答具體的部分。"],["王委員育敏：好，人力的部分，你要怎麼去補？"],["呂次長建德：誠如委員剛剛所說的這張圖，我們現在的作法是會引進外籍中階勞動力。最主要就是在機構，特別是夜間因為要輪班，老實說，本國居服員對這個部分大家比較不喜歡，所以夜間的部分我們目前就是從國外，其實就是從越南、印尼等新南向國家引進18歲以上的人來這邊念二技，之後如果在臺灣能夠服務6年以上，甚至還可以取得permanent stay，即永久居留權，讓他們有一個誘因，這是第一點。另外，第二點就是中階勞動力的薪資也比一般來得更高一點，我們希望能夠用這個部分對於機構……"],["王委員育敏：這部分你們有沒有預估過？你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們去年已經在輔英科技大學先設了……本來是要開兩班，現在是一班。今年我們在慈濟、弘光等等也新開了，我們未來會強化，還有透過跟外交部、勞動部合作，趕快從新南向國家……"],["王委員育敏：我希望這一塊你們還是要持續改善。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["王委員育敏：以你剛剛講的學校開一班、兩班，了不起就100個，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，所以……"],["王委員育敏：100個人再扣掉有意願從事的，就剩幾十個。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：幾十個恐怕跟未來人力需求的落差還是很大的。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：這一塊我是提早預警，希望你們要儘早準備，光是你們現在設定這樣的方案，恐怕對未來量能的需求還是不足的。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員提醒。"],["王委員育敏：接下來，我要讓你們看到的是，現在你們說已經升級到長照3.0，到底挹注在機構方面的資源，你們有沒有真的3.0，有沒有進一步去提升？因為其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力在做社區式的、居家式的，但是在機構式這一方面，你們過去一直都比較是交給機構自行來營運負責，從你的預算分配可以看得到，你看114年在住宿型機構的資源布建計畫，只占你總體經費的4.389%而已，比例其實非常低，你後來有增加住宿型機構每個月補助1萬，這個部分占了11.593%。所以就整體來看，像114年七百多億當中，你一年挹注在這種住宿型機構的資源布建，坦白講在比例上是偏低的，因為你政策的關係，但是我剛剛前面已經講了，其實有些老人家的選擇不見得都是在家裡，他未來希望入住到機構，你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質，補充它的人力，讓它有足夠的量能，我覺得這就是整個衛福部應該要看到未來的趨勢，整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布，因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人在外面開會，他們就說政府對他們其實是沒有補助的，就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙，所以未來在你的政策裡面，這個部分是不是也應該適時做一些調整，無論是居家，無論是社區，無論是住宿型的機構，衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源。"],["邱部長泰源：我非常同意委員的指導，尤其是我們現在特別在機構式的部分，一直在加強，也是長照3.0的重點之一。過去幾年來，的確我們也無可否認，在居家、在社區方面先深耕，接下來希望啟動社區的資源來互相資助，但是總是需要機構這個部分，最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強，這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點。"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["邱部長泰源：不曉得呂次長有沒有要補充，簡單補充一下。"],["呂次長建德：我三點補充，現在機構的部分，其實主要是供給面跟需求面，第一個，需求面的部分，目前就誠如委員剛剛說的，一個月1萬。第二個，供給面的部分，其實我們現在對於機構，主要是它的品質提升，包括它的感染管控，還有如果久任的話，我們長照基金這邊也會來補助，強化他們照服員的留任意願。對於機構的部分，另外還有關於智慧輔具補助的部分，目前在3.0這邊也都會來推動，因為其實你把輔具引進之後，對於照服員的單位生產力還有品質，也都會有很大的幫助，以上，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，我是希望你們這一塊要持續去強化。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["王委員育敏：最後我要講的就是，如果3.0你有很多服務還要繼續往上加，你的支持也要增加，我必須坦白告訴衛福部，你的錢是不夠的，你114年的基金來源跟基金用途，其實已經呈現了短絀的情況。很多專家學者已經預估過，以臺灣現在高齡化的情況，長照基金每年的支出規模其實是1,000億，你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話，讓大家都有感，覺得有受到支持跟幫助，其實應該是1,000億，但是你可以看到現在你所有長照的基金來源，它上上下下，其實大概都達不到千億的規模，114年還突然大幅下降，今年看起來，房地產的狀況也不會很好，政府的打房有某部分的成效，所以你的基金將來會不足以支應你的開支，對於這一塊，我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系，除了長照基金之外，未來保險到底要不要開辦、要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤，這一件事情，我覺得你們不要把話說死了，說絕對不開辦保險，我覺得也滿危險的，因為未來的挑戰很大，如果日本做不到，我很難想像臺灣，我們為什麼可以做得到？所以這一塊，我覺得你們現在是量入為出，就是有在控經費的支出，因為也知道經費、基金來源也不是水龍頭一打開，源源不絕，所以現在以量入為出的模式，我看到的是還有一些服務還沒有到位，一些該補助的其實還沒有，所以這一塊我請部長回去之後，你們還是要好好的研議，這個長照議題，我們以後都會遇到，所以在這個狀況底下，怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系，我覺得這要拋開一些框架，真的好好來研議怎麼做是最好的，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉代）：謝謝王育敏委員、謝謝部長及次長。","接續請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}}