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\"會\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1049.496, \"end\": 1049.516, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,854 --> 00:00:24,771\n謝謝主席有請我們服務部黃次長還有矯正署周署長還有我們衛生福利部我們石署長次長我也好\n\n2\n00:00:25,952 --> 00:00:44,499\n還有兩位署長好其實我剛才也提過了其實每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題來這個地方跟我們行政部門去做一個參考來做一個改善這也是立法院的一個監督所必須要我有幾個問題來就教我想從今天所提出來的報告裡面\n\n3\n00:00:46,100 --> 00:01:02,758\n在司法法制委員會我們也一直在呼籲就是整個現在的一個現行的雷金廚藝條例裡面那各級的差別還有這個整個責任分數跟成績分數跟長期我們整個矯正署的規劃目標\n\n4\n00:01:03,619 --> 00:01:10,345\n是把整個累進廚藥的制度把它給廢除掉到監獄刑刑法裡面去我想我提出幾個問題今天特別請署長上來的原因就是說在我們一般監獄裡面\n\n5\n00:01:18,693 --> 00:01:24,056\n受刑人,那其實他還是我們的國民,他只是穿著球衣的一個國民。那他在我們監獄裡面,生活的基本的一個需求,這個也都是我們國家去編列預算,來去做一個支付。\n\n6\n00:01:37,563 --> 00:01:48,618\n那可是呢你說他的一個基本生活那基本生活到底包括哪一些就可以來做討論啦我記得我上禮拜就教過就是說那時時屬長你沒來就說\n\n7\n00:01:53,086 --> 00:02:13,980\n那在地的很多區域醫院,剛好各縣市都會有一些監獄,那你必須要到醫療院所來做服務,去看一看之後,受刑人,還是去看一看之後,進去服刑以後,他真的是有些跟家庭,或者說他本來的經濟狀況就不好。\n\n8\n00:02:16,201 --> 00:02:23,828\n那又進去服刑以後跟家庭,就是得不到家庭的一個支持連看病啊,到最後都欠繳啦,欠錢啦,看白就看不去啦所以,隆重,石署長你知不知道,到醫療院所裡面,給這個監獄受刑人,這樣欠多少錢\n\n9\n00:02:35,839 --> 00:02:56,700\n跟委員報告,保險費就是健保費的部分是都有矯正機關納罷啦,這就是部分負擔,還有一些醫療費用,從102年到現在大概差不多五千萬左右五千萬,你說你健保費,你看在矯正署,我們政府部門都已經編列這個健保費了\n\n10\n00:02:57,381 --> 00:03:05,770\n那只是說部分負擔的部分就是說一般老百姓去看病他也要繳錢你監獄受刑人你來你也要繳錢檢報員政府幫你編OK市政規範這看起來好像是說我的政府我幫你建保會我幫你叫你的受刑人你自己沒錢要安裝可是另外有一招無辜啊醫院無辜啊\n\n11\n00:03:22,085 --> 00:03:34,248\n醫院無辜啊你看譬如說我一直在講台東馬街我覺得他很無辜啊你們桃園部立醫院他也無辜啊其他的醫療院所你說欠了五千萬你問教證署教證署說你這台我的事那不是我的事啊我是人換人來給你照顧願意給你打扮給你上便衣健保衛生又給你便利選給你拉馬跟教證署又無關可是站在那個醫療院所的立場就是人你帶來啦\n\n12\n00:03:49,387 --> 00:04:13,879\n那個健保署的意思就是說你們的意思就是說不然那個不穩負擔本來就是你要繳的啊事大家講都好像都彼此都沒事醫院他說我沒辦法繳薪繳證署當然他必須要去協助去幫忙醫院啦說不然你快吊吊的去給他收工或是說他沒看來除了這些以外你也不能說繳證署你跳出來你要幫人你帶來的你要去付錢\n\n13\n00:04:15,782 --> 00:04:34,525\n你做醫療院所,你算主管機關,那各地的便衣店,你要怎樣,你有更好的方法嗎?跟委員報告,這個事情我們有在健保會討論過,因為健保署這邊的預算主要都是來自於\n\n14\n00:04:35,986 --> 00:04:55,183\n人民繳交的健保費所以用這個說法公平性上確實有它的爭議性但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔這些財務的風險所以我們一方面你這樣說也是無解啊我要說黃次長我的意思就是說我的意思就是說\n\n15\n00:04:56,424 --> 00:05:06,808\n這個我們都認定受刑人在間的基本生活需求在間的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付日子之後年期啦電啦食飯啦這都國家嘛這都叫國家如果你再去把它擴大的話就是說醫療的部分\n\n16\n00:05:18,744 --> 00:05:47,831\n社會沒給支持嘛出來的人可能有的人沒給支持嘛因為他們家有錢要來給支持欠錢的地方就是自己沒錢啦還是他們家沒給支持這樣會產生這種狀況嘛我覺得要解決的有沒有方法次長那剛委員報告齁這個剛剛在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到齁就是說剛剛那個事務長講的五千萬齁事實上有一部分其實我們已經處理了齁現在應該是這是多年累積的總額啦齁\n\n17\n00:05:48,827 --> 00:05:56,411\n應該是剩下四千或三千多萬我們現在是這樣就是說因為這個欠費是這個受刑人看病那他跟這個醫療醫療法律關係但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的\n\n18\n00:06:09,679 --> 00:06:24,219\n就是其實授權並不一定都沒有錢我們要憑良心的話講是這樣那針對經濟困難部分我們每年就有編八百萬的假設作業基金去支援那去年也增到一千萬那未來我們會在這個部分\n\n19\n00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:49,397\n再跟這個健保署這邊來協商逐年我們會把這個過去的欠費跟未來如何處理這個部分的經費的問題我們會研理就是因為不夠才會你四年欠了下快五千萬嘛不只四年啦一百零二年到現在你那個一百一十二到一百一十四年的欠費你加一加就四千多萬\n\n20\n00:06:51,396 --> 00:06:57,200\n但是還會有清場啦是嘛,所以我要跟他說已經不夠,好啦,這個問題我認為啊政府的責任啦,就是說這個我們為什麼一直要考察或者說在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的一個專報我們也很為難耶\n\n21\n00:07:13,937 --> 00:07:31,845\n社會的氛圍是不利於來討論這個議題的社會的氛圍是常常是嗚這個人你看尤其事件剛發生的時候嗚這個好可惡喔你會殺人喔你會詐欺喔幹嘛幹嘛社會是討厭的社會那個時候的氣氛就是說吃粽管好事好啦起訴啦\n\n22\n00:07:34,306 --> 00:07:59,583\n審判了嘛隨著時間會過去嘛這個社會必須要穩定嘛到發監執行了他就是變成我們穿著球衣的國民了嘛除了我們現行制度你有一個叫做終身監禁那你也不可能任何罪行全部都提高到終身監禁嘛所以你在監的時候怎麼樣去處理這個就是一個有名該去思考的一個問題啊否則你不用到現在說我長期我這個到最後是把整個累進廚育的一個條\n\n23\n00:08:04,266 --> 00:08:26,661\n這個制度全部把它廢除掉因為大家殊客就是這樣嘛那接下來我要問啦就是說我們去考察這麼多監獄裡面啊署長你認為說喔這一些受刑人每一個月你們認為說他的作業金跟勞動這個部分作業金他一公尺多少有夠三千嘛您說的嘛對不對\n\n24\n00:08:30,053 --> 00:08:44,764\n三千塊是維持他生活的基本費用的錢是所以呢我們說再到監獄裡面去你讓他學習謀生的技能那你這個剩下你這個作業10%\n\n25\n00:08:47,645 --> 00:09:01,617\n犯罪被害人做一個補償幫助他來復歸這個社會可是你現在你這個累進等級你去掛鉤跟勞作金使用的一個比例這個應該去好好的做一個檢討啦你說三千啦\n\n26\n00:09:03,564 --> 00:09:21,548\n那最高的現在多少?我們以北京來看好了,你是不是相關多少多少?北京它平均,按照我們的數據顯示它每個月大概是749塊749塊,跟你說的,三清差很多,你用700多少,北京平均?749塊你那是平均喔?相關的多少?\n\n27\n00:09:30,950 --> 00:09:34,573\n我們有兩個數據啦一個數據是他一年的勞作金收入是7400多萬那平均下來就是749萬\n\n28\n00:09:46,923 --> 00:10:05,272\n你是七千多萬你把總人數你去把它除一除我現在想知道的我當然很清楚你要拿到你要進階到譬如說你到二級你要關了越久以後他比較有機會去做到更好的好像是那個報酬的一個工作人家去賣人家賺錢我們賣不賣人家去賣比較有機會人家給你賺到這麼多作業金\n\n29\n00:10:09,974 --> 00:10:17,340\n但是我必須要講的就是說,那個差距過大,像比如說我到台東去啊,我去我都會問,你一個月要做多少?多少你知道嗎?讓你以後最多的多少,可以出來做的。我問的,都沒差過一百塊。\n\n30\n00:10:27,523 --> 00:10:32,407\n所以說你一個月在那個地方我們說要由於復歸這個社會復歸這個社會那你從作業金他領了多少我們就可以看得出來就是說他裡面做了什麼工作比較好的那些啦什麼麵包烘焙的啦有的沒的啦有的沒的那差不多都差不多到最後都修身養性乖到很乖啊你知道嗎那時候我們說站在比較高的分所嘛\n\n31\n00:10:53,496 --> 00:11:12,609\n所以當然那個叫結果啦但是我們整體來看我們怎麼樣把勞作軍如果去做一個制度的改善因為你畢竟整個勞作軍是國家跟社會如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一\n\n32\n00:11:15,082 --> 00:11:29,499\n這勞動跟勞作金你要讓它復歸這個社會你如果當成是這樣子的話而不是單純是要懲罰跟一種規訓的話那你可能做法會有所不同我不知道蘇丁你的看法是什麼報告委員\n\n33\n00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:58,241\n我們勞作軍機關也希望能夠提高所以包括我們有一個評價會議我們評價會議也會請社會公正人士跟勞動部的勞動力發展署他對廠商比較了解來一起開會廠商一起過來然後當然基於廠商他也希望說壓低嘛那我們希望提高所以就是折衷這樣子那問題是比如所謂的勞動\n\n34\n00:11:59,882 --> 00:12:20,321\n剛剛委員提到麵包烘培甚至有的是醬油工那個就很高那個平均大概一萬塊以上但是我們一般的勞作金沒那麼高這確實是這樣包括他的委託作業的項目比如說有些老人工廠他只能折那個紫蓮花那個就少了那個施工長署長先請回\n\n35\n00:12:21,122 --> 00:12:38,169\n那個就少但是你如果分配到所謂的焊接工廠那個車廠的那個會比較高因為他有點技術所以可能跟委託座位的項目也是有點關係但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來是一個問題\n\n36\n00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:45,471\n所以說你們要去找什麼可以去買你找就找到蓮花或是在消磨時間而已不是說那個不對啦有時候讓受刑人在裡面有工作可以做啦對他心情的穩定也不是壞事啦\n\n37\n00:12:57,356 --> 00:13:11,464\n有一些比如說我們會找一些比如說提代外銷的那個算件也是錢不錯那個算是比如說外銷的我們盡量來找這種項目的啦但是也\n\n38\n00:13:12,344 --> 00:13:27,590\n跟那個景氣有關係包括說在疫情期間再怎麼找也是很難啦你這樣講署長就失去你的專業了你反而像這一種你那個技術高的到最後一定是累進儲育的級數已經又變更高了啦是不是這樣說一定是這樣啊你像比如說你那個技術含量比較高的勞作經費比較高的工作你一定是夠累進儲育我看你至少到二級以上啦\n\n39\n00:13:44,002 --> 00:13:45,482\n要不然你要怎麼去站在那裡?累進廚藝的級數跟委託作業的項目委員是覺得有關係我覺得有關係當然那產生的是一個結果這個應該沒有關係我會喔我認為會喔你要好好去做一個思考畢竟這個你更專業啦我是認為啦這樣子講啦就是說受刑人他\n\n40\n00:14:13,587 --> 00:14:16,297\n是被我們社會排除之外的國民\n\n41\n00:14:17,944 --> 00:14:46,121\n是這樣子嗎是一個問號還是你把它當成它是遲早要回歸我們這個社會的一個共同體我看大法官憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋憲法法庭也好或者說國外的一個法制你看連德國聯邦憲法法院他也去提到了就是說立法者必須去法律明確再社會化的一個概念講這一些\n\n42\n00:14:47,470 --> 00:15:01,938\n台灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去但是你們叫做矯正機關啦你們叫做矯正機關啦那說這一個制度如何去做一個改進我覺得還是有必要我再強調一次就是說\n\n43\n00:15:03,956 --> 00:15:29,987\n從案件發生到偵查到審判這個社會都是浮動判決確定以後隨著時間這樣子過去我們期待的是這個被法院判決的除非他已經死刑了跟這個社會永久隔離了或者他就是穿著球衣的國民他總是要復歸到這個社會我們所有矯正就是依照這樣的一個概念在運作\n\n44\n00:15:31,428 --> 00:15:55,557\n再去做逐步的做一個修正嘛那所以這一些齁如果衝到那個壽星人我們去看說我給你關關到買啊我就看這個賣啊我也看不去啊我也要去欠銷啊再讓人家小證書來給他偷錢對醫院他有他的思考對壽星人來講的話這個到底符不符合人性尊嚴的一個部分基本的一個國民\n\n45\n00:15:56,857 --> 00:16:07,781\n我倒認為政府可以多做點力啦是報告委員我可以講補充一句話嗎剛剛委員有提到那些作業是不是跟累進廚藝您認為有關係如果從這個精神來看\n\n46\n00:16:12,543 --> 00:16:29,062\n他確實是跟累進廚藝沒有關係但是他會跟殘行有關係因為我們要做一些出塞他要去餓這個手拉啤的麵包的他一定比如說要三鍋味還是六鍋味才會出塞嘛\n\n47\n00:16:29,722 --> 00:16:42,871\n所以我們會有一個申請說你產型一定要有三個月以上或六個月以上你才能夠來參加啦但是不會限說你一定要什麼級數你已經足以達到幾級沒有我們是用產型來篩選\n\n48\n00:16:49,797 --> 00:17:12,914\n委員那個剛才那個委員所說的因為我們陳吳今天報告有講我們在這個累進主義制度事實上我們條例要廢止然後我們會在建議行政法修一些條文然後未來大部分的細節性的規定會用法規命令來訂定那委員今天所提示的報案簡報裡面所記載的我們都會回去納入未來我們原意改善的這個意見來參考\n\n49\n00:17:13,835 --> 00:17:29,516\n是啦因為你那個各級別的差別待遇的或者說你那個整個現行的責任分數跟成績分數裡面自己都很清楚嘛那這一些本來就必須要到一併去做一個研議如何再去做修正的時候了啦好不好是我們都會檢討好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9854\t24771\t謝謝主席 有請我們服務部黃次長還有矯正署周署長還有我們衛生福利部我們石署長 次長我也好\n25952\t44499\t還有兩位署長好其實我剛才也提過了其實每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題來這個地方跟我們行政部門去做一個參考來做一個改善這也是立法院的一個監督所必須要我有幾個問題來就教我想從今天所提出來的報告裡面\n46100\t62758\t在司法法制委員會我們也一直在呼籲就是整個現在的一個現行的雷金廚藝條例裡面那各級的差別還有這個整個責任分數跟成績分數跟長期我們整個矯正署的規劃目標\n63619\t70345\t是把整個累進廚藥的制度把它給廢除掉到監獄刑刑法裡面去我想我提出幾個問題今天特別請署長上來的原因就是說在我們一般監獄裡面\n78693\t84056\t受刑人,那其實他還是我們的國民,他只是穿著球衣的一個國民。那他在我們監獄裡面,生活的基本的一個需求,這個也都是我們國家去編列預算,來去做一個支付。\n97563\t108618\t那可是呢 你說他的一個基本生活那基本生活到底包括哪一些就可以來做討論啦我記得我上禮拜就教過 就是說那時時屬長你沒來 就說\n113086\t133980\t那在地的很多區域醫院,剛好各縣市都會有一些監獄,那你必須要到醫療院所來做服務,去看一看之後,受刑人,還是去看一看之後,進去服刑以後,他真的是有些跟家庭,或者說他本來的經濟狀況就不好。\n136201\t143828\t那又進去服刑以後跟家庭,就是得不到家庭的一個支持連看病啊,到最後都欠繳啦,欠錢啦,看白就看不去啦所以,隆重,石署長你知不知道,到醫療院所裡面,給這個監獄受刑人,這樣欠多少錢\n155839\t176700\t跟委員報告,保險費就是健保費的部分是都有矯正機關納罷啦,這就是部分負擔,還有一些醫療費用,從102年到現在大概差不多五千萬左右五千萬,你說你健保費,你看在矯正署,我們政府部門都已經編列這個健保費了\n177381\t185770\t那只是說部分負擔的部分就是說一般老百姓去看病他也要繳錢你監獄受刑人你來你也要繳錢檢報員政府幫你編OK 市政規範這看起來好像是說我的政府我幫你建保會我幫你叫你的受刑人你自己沒錢要安裝可是另外有一招無辜啊醫院無辜啊\n202085\t214248\t醫院無辜啊 你看譬如說 我一直在講台東馬街 我覺得他很無辜啊你們桃園部立醫院 他也無辜啊其他的醫療院所 你說欠了五千萬你問教證署 教證署說你這台我的事 那不是我的事啊我是人換人來 給你照顧 願意給你打扮 給你上便衣 健保衛生 又給你便利選 給你拉馬跟教證署又無關 可是站在那個醫療院所的立場就是 人你帶來啦\n229387\t253879\t那個健保署的意思就是說你們的意思就是說不然那個不穩負擔本來就是你要繳的啊事大家講都好像都 彼此都沒事醫院 他說我沒辦法繳薪繳證署當然他必須要去協助去幫忙醫院啦 說不然你快吊吊的 去給他收工或是說他沒看來除了這些以外你也不能說繳證署你跳出來你要幫人 你帶來的 你要去付錢\n255782\t274525\t你做醫療院所,你算主管機關,那各地的便衣店,你要怎樣,你有更好的方法嗎?跟委員報告,這個事情我們有在健保會討論過,因為健保署這邊的預算主要都是來自於\n275986\t295183\t人民繳交的健保費所以用這個說法公平性上確實有它的爭議性但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔這些財務的風險所以我們一方面你這樣說也是無解啊我要說黃次長我的意思就是說我的意思就是說\n296424\t306808\t這個我們都認定 受刑人在間的基本生活需求在間的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付日子之後 年期啦 電啦 食飯啦 這都國家嘛這都叫國家 如果你再去把它擴大的話 就是說醫療的部分\n318744\t347831\t社會沒給支持嘛出來的人可能有的人沒給支持嘛因為他們家有錢要來給支持欠錢的地方就是自己沒錢啦還是他們家沒給支持這樣會產生這種狀況嘛我覺得要解決的有沒有方法 次長那剛委員報告齁這個剛剛在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到齁就是說剛剛那個事務長講的五千萬齁事實上有一部分其實我們已經處理了齁現在應該是這是多年累積的總額啦齁\n348827\t356411\t應該是剩下四千或三千多萬我們現在是這樣就是說因為這個欠費是這個受刑人看病那他跟這個醫療醫療法律關係但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的\n369679\t384219\t就是其實授權並不一定都沒有錢我們要憑良心的話講是這樣那針對經濟困難部分我們每年就有編八百萬的假設作業基金去支援那去年也增到一千萬那未來我們會在這個部分\n385040\t409397\t再跟這個健保署這邊來協商逐年我們會把這個過去的欠費跟未來如何處理這個部分的經費的問題我們會研理就是因為不夠才會你四年欠了下快五千萬嘛不只四年啦一百零二年到現在你那個一百一十二到一百一十四年的欠費你加一加就四千多萬\n411396\t417200\t但是還會有清場啦是嘛,所以我要跟他說已經不夠,好啦,這個問題我認為啊政府的責任啦,就是說這個我們為什麼一直要考察或者說在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的一個專報我們也很為難耶\n433937\t451845\t社會的氛圍是不利於來討論這個議題的社會的氛圍是常常是 嗚 這個人你看尤其事件剛發生的時候 嗚 這個好可惡喔你會殺人喔 你會詐欺喔 幹嘛幹嘛 社會是討厭的社會那個時候的氣氛就是說 吃粽 管好事 好啦 起訴啦\n454306\t479583\t審判了嘛隨著時間會過去嘛這個社會必須要穩定嘛到發監執行了他就是變成我們穿著球衣的國民了嘛除了我們現行制度你有一個叫做終身監禁那你也不可能任何罪行全部都提高到終身監禁嘛所以你在監的時候怎麼樣去處理這個就是一個有名該去思考的一個問題啊否則你不用到現在說我長期我這個到最後是把整個累進廚育的一個條\n484266\t506661\t這個制度全部把它廢除掉因為大家殊客就是這樣嘛那接下來我要問啦就是說我們去考察這麼多監獄裡面啊署長你認為說喔這一些受刑人每一個月你們認為說他的作業金跟勞動這個部分作業金他一公尺多少有夠三千嘛 您說的嘛 對不對\n510053\t524764\t三千塊是維持他生活的基本費用的錢是所以呢我們說再到監獄裡面去你讓他學習謀生的技能那你這個剩下你這個作業10%\n527645\t541617\t犯罪被害人做一個補償幫助他來復歸這個社會可是你現在你這個累進等級你去掛鉤跟勞作金使用的一個比例這個應該去好好的做一個檢討啦你說三千啦\n543564\t561548\t那最高的現在多少?我們以北京來看好了,你是不是相關多少多少?北京它平均,按照我們的數據顯示它每個月大概是749塊749塊,跟你說的,三清差很多,你用700多少,北京平均?749塊你那是平均喔?相關的多少?\n570950\t574573\t我們有兩個數據啦一個數據是他一年的勞作金收入是7400多萬那平均下來就是749萬\n586923\t605272\t你是七千多萬 你把總人數你去把它除一除我現在想知道的 我當然很清楚你要拿到 你要進階到 譬如說你到二級你要關了越久以後 他比較有機會去做到更好的好像是那個報酬的一個工作人家去賣人家賺錢我們賣不賣 人家去賣比較有機會人家給你賺到這麼多作業金\n609974\t617340\t但是我必須要講的就是說,那個差距過大,像比如說我到台東去啊,我去我都會問,你一個月要做多少?多少你知道嗎?讓你以後最多的多少,可以出來做的。我問的,都沒差過一百塊。\n627523\t632407\t所以說你一個月在那個地方我們說要由於復歸這個社會復歸這個社會那你從作業金他領了多少我們就可以看得出來就是說他裡面做了什麼工作比較好的那些啦 什麼麵包烘焙的啦有的沒的啦 有的沒的那差不多都差不多到最後都修身養性 乖到很乖啊你知道嗎那時候我們說站在比較高的分所嘛\n653496\t672609\t所以當然那個叫結果啦 但是我們整體來看 我們怎麼樣把勞作軍如果去做一個制度的改善因為你畢竟整個勞作軍是國家跟社會 如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一\n675082\t689499\t這勞動跟勞作金你要讓它復歸這個社會你如果當成是這樣子的話而不是單純是要懲罰跟一種規訓的話那你可能做法會有所不同我不知道蘇丁你的看法是什麼報告委員\n690160\t718241\t我們勞作軍機關也希望能夠提高所以包括我們有一個評價會議我們評價會議也會請社會公正人士跟勞動部的勞動力發展署他對廠商比較了解來一起開會 廠商一起過來然後當然基於廠商他也希望說壓低嘛那我們希望提高所以就是折衷這樣子那問題是比如所謂的勞動\n719882\t740321\t剛剛委員提到麵包 烘培 甚至有的是醬油工 那個就很高 那個平均大概一萬塊以上但是我們一般的勞作金沒那麼高 這確實是這樣包括他的委託作業的項目 比如說有些老人工廠他只能折那個紫蓮花 那個就少了那個施工長 署長先請回\n741122\t758169\t那個就少但是你如果分配到所謂的焊接工廠那個車廠的那個會比較高因為他有點技術所以可能跟委託座位的項目也是有點關係但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來是一個問題\n762170\t765471\t所以說你們要去找什麼可以去買你找就找到蓮花 或是在消磨時間而已不是說那個不對啦有時候讓受刑人在裡面 有工作可以做啦對他心情的穩定也不是壞事啦\n777356\t791464\t有一些比如說我們會找一些比如說提代外銷的那個算件也是錢不錯那個算是比如說外銷的我們盡量來找這種項目的啦但是也\n792344\t807590\t跟那個景氣有關係包括說在疫情期間再怎麼找也是很難啦你這樣講署長就失去你的專業了你反而像這一種你那個技術高的到最後一定是累進儲育的級數已經又變更高了啦是不是這樣說一定是這樣啊你像比如說你那個技術含量比較高的勞作經費比較高的工作你一定是夠累進儲育我看你至少到二級以上啦\n824002\t825482\t要不然你要怎麼去站在那裡?累進廚藝的級數跟委託作業的項目委員是覺得有關係我覺得有關係當然那產生的是一個結果這個應該沒有關係我會喔 我認為會喔你要好好去做一個思考畢竟這個你更專業啦我是認為啦 這樣子講啦就是說受刑人他\n853587\t856297\t是被我們社會排除之外的國民\n857944\t886121\t是這樣子嗎 是一個問號還是你把它當成它是遲早要回歸我們這個社會的一個共同體我看大法官憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋憲法法庭也好或者說國外的一個法制你看連德國聯邦憲法法院他也去提到了就是說立法者必須去法律明確再社會化的一個概念講這一些\n887470\t901938\t台灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去但是你們叫做矯正機關啦你們叫做矯正機關啦那說這一個制度如何去做一個改進我覺得還是有必要我再強調一次就是說\n903956\t929987\t從案件發生到偵查到審判這個社會都是浮動判決確定以後隨著時間這樣子過去我們期待的是這個被法院判決的除非他已經死刑了跟這個社會永久隔離了或者他就是穿著球衣的國民他總是要復歸到這個社會我們所有矯正就是依照這樣的一個概念在運作\n931428\t955557\t再去做逐步的做一個修正嘛那所以這一些齁 如果衝到那個壽星人我們去看說我給你關 關到買啊 我就看這個賣啊 我也看不去啊 我也要去欠銷啊 再讓人家小證書來給他偷錢對醫院他有他的思考對壽星人來講的話這個到底符不符合人性尊嚴的一個部分 基本的一個國民\n956857\t967781\t我倒認為政府可以多做點力啦是 報告委員我可以講 補充一句話嗎剛剛委員有提到那些作業是不是跟累進廚藝您認為有關係如果從這個精神來看\n972543\t989062\t他確實是跟累進廚藝沒有關係但是他會跟殘行有關係因為我們要做一些出塞他要去餓這個手拉啤的麵包的他一定比如說要三鍋味還是六鍋味才會出塞嘛\n989722\t1002871\t所以我們會有一個申請說你產型一定要有三個月以上或六個月以上你才能夠來參加啦但是不會限說你一定要什麼級數你已經足以達到幾級沒有 我們是用產型來篩選\n1009797\t1032914\t委員那個 剛才那個委員所說的因為我們陳吳今天報告有講我們在這個累進主義制度事實上我們條例要廢止然後我們會在建議行政法修一些條文然後未來大部分的細節性的規定會用法規命令來訂定那委員今天所提示的報案簡報裡面所記載的我們都會回去納入未來我們原意改善的這個意見來參考\n1033835\t1049516\t是啦 因為你那個各級別的差別待遇的或者說你那個整個現行的責任分數跟成績分數裡面自己都很清楚嘛那這一些本來就必須要到一併去做一個研議如何再去做修正的時候了啦 好不好是 我們都會檢討好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請我們服務部黃次長還有矯正署周署長還有我們衛生福利部我們石署長 次長我也好\n還有兩位署長好其實我剛才也提過了其實每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題來這個地方跟我們行政部門去做一個參考來做一個改善這也是立法院的一個監督所必須要我有幾個問題來就教我想從今天所提出來的報告裡面\n在司法法制委員會我們也一直在呼籲就是整個現在的一個現行的雷金廚藝條例裡面那各級的差別還有這個整個責任分數跟成績分數跟長期我們整個矯正署的規劃目標\n是把整個累進廚藥的制度把它給廢除掉到監獄刑刑法裡面去我想我提出幾個問題今天特別請署長上來的原因就是說在我們一般監獄裡面\n受刑人,那其實他還是我們的國民,他只是穿著球衣的一個國民。那他在我們監獄裡面,生活的基本的一個需求,這個也都是我們國家去編列預算,來去做一個支付。\n那可是呢 你說他的一個基本生活那基本生活到底包括哪一些就可以來做討論啦我記得我上禮拜就教過 就是說那時時屬長你沒來 就說\n那在地的很多區域醫院,剛好各縣市都會有一些監獄,那你必須要到醫療院所來做服務,去看一看之後,受刑人,還是去看一看之後,進去服刑以後,他真的是有些跟家庭,或者說他本來的經濟狀況就不好。\n那又進去服刑以後跟家庭,就是得不到家庭的一個支持連看病啊,到最後都欠繳啦,欠錢啦,看白就看不去啦所以,隆重,石署長你知不知道,到醫療院所裡面,給這個監獄受刑人,這樣欠多少錢\n跟委員報告,保險費就是健保費的部分是都有矯正機關納罷啦,這就是部分負擔,還有一些醫療費用,從102年到現在大概差不多五千萬左右五千萬,你說你健保費,你看在矯正署,我們政府部門都已經編列這個健保費了\n那只是說部分負擔的部分就是說一般老百姓去看病他也要繳錢你監獄受刑人你來你也要繳錢檢報員政府幫你編OK 市政規範這看起來好像是說我的政府我幫你建保會我幫你叫你的受刑人你自己沒錢要安裝可是另外有一招無辜啊醫院無辜啊\n醫院無辜啊 你看譬如說 我一直在講台東馬街 我覺得他很無辜啊你們桃園部立醫院 他也無辜啊其他的醫療院所 你說欠了五千萬你問教證署 教證署說你這台我的事 那不是我的事啊我是人換人來 給你照顧 願意給你打扮 給你上便衣 健保衛生 又給你便利選 給你拉馬跟教證署又無關 可是站在那個醫療院所的立場就是 人你帶來啦\n那個健保署的意思就是說你們的意思就是說不然那個不穩負擔本來就是你要繳的啊事大家講都好像都 彼此都沒事醫院 他說我沒辦法繳薪繳證署當然他必須要去協助去幫忙醫院啦 說不然你快吊吊的 去給他收工或是說他沒看來除了這些以外你也不能說繳證署你跳出來你要幫人 你帶來的 你要去付錢\n你做醫療院所,你算主管機關,那各地的便衣店,你要怎樣,你有更好的方法嗎?跟委員報告,這個事情我們有在健保會討論過,因為健保署這邊的預算主要都是來自於\n人民繳交的健保費所以用這個說法公平性上確實有它的爭議性但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔這些財務的風險所以我們一方面你這樣說也是無解啊我要說黃次長我的意思就是說我的意思就是說\n這個我們都認定 受刑人在間的基本生活需求在間的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付日子之後 年期啦 電啦 食飯啦 這都國家嘛這都叫國家 如果你再去把它擴大的話 就是說醫療的部分\n社會沒給支持嘛出來的人可能有的人沒給支持嘛因為他們家有錢要來給支持欠錢的地方就是自己沒錢啦還是他們家沒給支持這樣會產生這種狀況嘛我覺得要解決的有沒有方法 次長那剛委員報告齁這個剛剛在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到齁就是說剛剛那個事務長講的五千萬齁事實上有一部分其實我們已經處理了齁現在應該是這是多年累積的總額啦齁\n應該是剩下四千或三千多萬我們現在是這樣就是說因為這個欠費是這個受刑人看病那他跟這個醫療醫療法律關係但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的\n就是其實授權並不一定都沒有錢我們要憑良心的話講是這樣那針對經濟困難部分我們每年就有編八百萬的假設作業基金去支援那去年也增到一千萬那未來我們會在這個部分\n再跟這個健保署這邊來協商逐年我們會把這個過去的欠費跟未來如何處理這個部分的經費的問題我們會研理就是因為不夠才會你四年欠了下快五千萬嘛不只四年啦一百零二年到現在你那個一百一十二到一百一十四年的欠費你加一加就四千多萬\n但是還會有清場啦是嘛,所以我要跟他說已經不夠,好啦,這個問題我認為啊政府的責任啦,就是說這個我們為什麼一直要考察或者說在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的一個專報我們也很為難耶\n社會的氛圍是不利於來討論這個議題的社會的氛圍是常常是 嗚 這個人你看尤其事件剛發生的時候 嗚 這個好可惡喔你會殺人喔 你會詐欺喔 幹嘛幹嘛 社會是討厭的社會那個時候的氣氛就是說 吃粽 管好事 好啦 起訴啦\n審判了嘛隨著時間會過去嘛這個社會必須要穩定嘛到發監執行了他就是變成我們穿著球衣的國民了嘛除了我們現行制度你有一個叫做終身監禁那你也不可能任何罪行全部都提高到終身監禁嘛所以你在監的時候怎麼樣去處理這個就是一個有名該去思考的一個問題啊否則你不用到現在說我長期我這個到最後是把整個累進廚育的一個條\n這個制度全部把它廢除掉因為大家殊客就是這樣嘛那接下來我要問啦就是說我們去考察這麼多監獄裡面啊署長你認為說喔這一些受刑人每一個月你們認為說他的作業金跟勞動這個部分作業金他一公尺多少有夠三千嘛 您說的嘛 對不對\n三千塊是維持他生活的基本費用的錢是所以呢我們說再到監獄裡面去你讓他學習謀生的技能那你這個剩下你這個作業10%\n犯罪被害人做一個補償幫助他來復歸這個社會可是你現在你這個累進等級你去掛鉤跟勞作金使用的一個比例這個應該去好好的做一個檢討啦你說三千啦\n那最高的現在多少?我們以北京來看好了,你是不是相關多少多少?北京它平均,按照我們的數據顯示它每個月大概是749塊749塊,跟你說的,三清差很多,你用700多少,北京平均?749塊你那是平均喔?相關的多少?\n我們有兩個數據啦一個數據是他一年的勞作金收入是7400多萬那平均下來就是749萬\n你是七千多萬 你把總人數你去把它除一除我現在想知道的 我當然很清楚你要拿到 你要進階到 譬如說你到二級你要關了越久以後 他比較有機會去做到更好的好像是那個報酬的一個工作人家去賣人家賺錢我們賣不賣 人家去賣比較有機會人家給你賺到這麼多作業金\n但是我必須要講的就是說,那個差距過大,像比如說我到台東去啊,我去我都會問,你一個月要做多少?多少你知道嗎?讓你以後最多的多少,可以出來做的。我問的,都沒差過一百塊。\n所以說你一個月在那個地方我們說要由於復歸這個社會復歸這個社會那你從作業金他領了多少我們就可以看得出來就是說他裡面做了什麼工作比較好的那些啦 什麼麵包烘焙的啦有的沒的啦 有的沒的那差不多都差不多到最後都修身養性 乖到很乖啊你知道嗎那時候我們說站在比較高的分所嘛\n所以當然那個叫結果啦 但是我們整體來看 我們怎麼樣把勞作軍如果去做一個制度的改善因為你畢竟整個勞作軍是國家跟社會 如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一\n這勞動跟勞作金你要讓它復歸這個社會你如果當成是這樣子的話而不是單純是要懲罰跟一種規訓的話那你可能做法會有所不同我不知道蘇丁你的看法是什麼報告委員\n我們勞作軍機關也希望能夠提高所以包括我們有一個評價會議我們評價會議也會請社會公正人士跟勞動部的勞動力發展署他對廠商比較了解來一起開會 廠商一起過來然後當然基於廠商他也希望說壓低嘛那我們希望提高所以就是折衷這樣子那問題是比如所謂的勞動\n剛剛委員提到麵包 烘培 甚至有的是醬油工 那個就很高 那個平均大概一萬塊以上但是我們一般的勞作金沒那麼高 這確實是這樣包括他的委託作業的項目 比如說有些老人工廠他只能折那個紫蓮花 那個就少了那個施工長 署長先請回\n那個就少但是你如果分配到所謂的焊接工廠那個車廠的那個會比較高因為他有點技術所以可能跟委託座位的項目也是有點關係但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來是一個問題\n所以說你們要去找什麼可以去買你找就找到蓮花 或是在消磨時間而已不是說那個不對啦有時候讓受刑人在裡面 有工作可以做啦對他心情的穩定也不是壞事啦\n有一些比如說我們會找一些比如說提代外銷的那個算件也是錢不錯那個算是比如說外銷的我們盡量來找這種項目的啦但是也\n跟那個景氣有關係包括說在疫情期間再怎麼找也是很難啦你這樣講署長就失去你的專業了你反而像這一種你那個技術高的到最後一定是累進儲育的級數已經又變更高了啦是不是這樣說一定是這樣啊你像比如說你那個技術含量比較高的勞作經費比較高的工作你一定是夠累進儲育我看你至少到二級以上啦\n要不然你要怎麼去站在那裡?累進廚藝的級數跟委託作業的項目委員是覺得有關係我覺得有關係當然那產生的是一個結果這個應該沒有關係我會喔 我認為會喔你要好好去做一個思考畢竟這個你更專業啦我是認為啦 這樣子講啦就是說受刑人他\n是被我們社會排除之外的國民\n是這樣子嗎 是一個問號還是你把它當成它是遲早要回歸我們這個社會的一個共同體我看大法官憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋憲法法庭也好或者說國外的一個法制你看連德國聯邦憲法法院他也去提到了就是說立法者必須去法律明確再社會化的一個概念講這一些\n台灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去但是你們叫做矯正機關啦你們叫做矯正機關啦那說這一個制度如何去做一個改進我覺得還是有必要我再強調一次就是說\n從案件發生到偵查到審判這個社會都是浮動判決確定以後隨著時間這樣子過去我們期待的是這個被法院判決的除非他已經死刑了跟這個社會永久隔離了或者他就是穿著球衣的國民他總是要復歸到這個社會我們所有矯正就是依照這樣的一個概念在運作\n再去做逐步的做一個修正嘛那所以這一些齁 如果衝到那個壽星人我們去看說我給你關 關到買啊 我就看這個賣啊 我也看不去啊 我也要去欠銷啊 再讓人家小證書來給他偷錢對醫院他有他的思考對壽星人來講的話這個到底符不符合人性尊嚴的一個部分 基本的一個國民\n我倒認為政府可以多做點力啦是 報告委員我可以講 補充一句話嗎剛剛委員有提到那些作業是不是跟累進廚藝您認為有關係如果從這個精神來看\n他確實是跟累進廚藝沒有關係但是他會跟殘行有關係因為我們要做一些出塞他要去餓這個手拉啤的麵包的他一定比如說要三鍋味還是六鍋味才會出塞嘛\n所以我們會有一個申請說你產型一定要有三個月以上或六個月以上你才能夠來參加啦但是不會限說你一定要什麼級數你已經足以達到幾級沒有 我們是用產型來篩選\n委員那個 剛才那個委員所說的因為我們陳吳今天報告有講我們在這個累進主義制度事實上我們條例要廢止然後我們會在建議行政法修一些條文然後未來大部分的細節性的規定會用法規命令來訂定那委員今天所提示的報案簡報裡面所記載的我們都會回去納入未來我們原意改善的這個意見來參考\n是啦 因為你那個各級別的差別待遇的或者說你那個整個現行的責任分數跟成績分數裡面自己都很清楚嘛那這一些本來就必須要到一併去做一個研議如何再去做修正的時候了啦 好不好是 我們都會檢討好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.854 --> 00:24.771\n謝謝主席有請我們服務部黃次長還有矯正署周署長還有我們衛生福利部我們石署長次長我也好\n\n00:25.952 --> 00:44.499\n還有兩位署長好其實我剛才也提過了其實每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題來這個地方跟我們行政部門去做一個參考來做一個改善這也是立法院的一個監督所必須要我有幾個問題來就教我想從今天所提出來的報告裡面\n\n00:46.100 --> 01:02.758\n在司法法制委員會我們也一直在呼籲就是整個現在的一個現行的雷金廚藝條例裡面那各級的差別還有這個整個責任分數跟成績分數跟長期我們整個矯正署的規劃目標\n\n01:03.619 --> 01:10.345\n是把整個累進廚藥的制度把它給廢除掉到監獄刑刑法裡面去我想我提出幾個問題今天特別請署長上來的原因就是說在我們一般監獄裡面\n\n01:18.693 --> 01:24.056\n受刑人,那其實他還是我們的國民,他只是穿著球衣的一個國民。那他在我們監獄裡面,生活的基本的一個需求,這個也都是我們國家去編列預算,來去做一個支付。\n\n01:37.563 --> 01:48.618\n那可是呢你說他的一個基本生活那基本生活到底包括哪一些就可以來做討論啦我記得我上禮拜就教過就是說那時時屬長你沒來就說\n\n01:53.086 --> 02:13.980\n那在地的很多區域醫院,剛好各縣市都會有一些監獄,那你必須要到醫療院所來做服務,去看一看之後,受刑人,還是去看一看之後,進去服刑以後,他真的是有些跟家庭,或者說他本來的經濟狀況就不好。\n\n02:16.201 --> 02:23.828\n那又進去服刑以後跟家庭,就是得不到家庭的一個支持連看病啊,到最後都欠繳啦,欠錢啦,看白就看不去啦所以,隆重,石署長你知不知道,到醫療院所裡面,給這個監獄受刑人,這樣欠多少錢\n\n02:35.839 --> 02:56.700\n跟委員報告,保險費就是健保費的部分是都有矯正機關納罷啦,這就是部分負擔,還有一些醫療費用,從102年到現在大概差不多五千萬左右五千萬,你說你健保費,你看在矯正署,我們政府部門都已經編列這個健保費了\n\n02:57.381 --> 03:05.770\n那只是說部分負擔的部分就是說一般老百姓去看病他也要繳錢你監獄受刑人你來你也要繳錢檢報員政府幫你編OK市政規範這看起來好像是說我的政府我幫你建保會我幫你叫你的受刑人你自己沒錢要安裝可是另外有一招無辜啊醫院無辜啊\n\n03:22.085 --> 03:34.248\n醫院無辜啊你看譬如說我一直在講台東馬街我覺得他很無辜啊你們桃園部立醫院他也無辜啊其他的醫療院所你說欠了五千萬你問教證署教證署說你這台我的事那不是我的事啊我是人換人來給你照顧願意給你打扮給你上便衣健保衛生又給你便利選給你拉馬跟教證署又無關可是站在那個醫療院所的立場就是人你帶來啦\n\n03:49.387 --> 04:13.879\n那個健保署的意思就是說你們的意思就是說不然那個不穩負擔本來就是你要繳的啊事大家講都好像都彼此都沒事醫院他說我沒辦法繳薪繳證署當然他必須要去協助去幫忙醫院啦說不然你快吊吊的去給他收工或是說他沒看來除了這些以外你也不能說繳證署你跳出來你要幫人你帶來的你要去付錢\n\n04:15.782 --> 04:34.525\n你做醫療院所,你算主管機關,那各地的便衣店,你要怎樣,你有更好的方法嗎?跟委員報告,這個事情我們有在健保會討論過,因為健保署這邊的預算主要都是來自於\n\n04:35.986 --> 04:55.183\n人民繳交的健保費所以用這個說法公平性上確實有它的爭議性但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔這些財務的風險所以我們一方面你這樣說也是無解啊我要說黃次長我的意思就是說我的意思就是說\n\n04:56.424 --> 05:06.808\n這個我們都認定受刑人在間的基本生活需求在間的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付日子之後年期啦電啦食飯啦這都國家嘛這都叫國家如果你再去把它擴大的話就是說醫療的部分\n\n05:18.744 --> 05:47.831\n社會沒給支持嘛出來的人可能有的人沒給支持嘛因為他們家有錢要來給支持欠錢的地方就是自己沒錢啦還是他們家沒給支持這樣會產生這種狀況嘛我覺得要解決的有沒有方法次長那剛委員報告齁這個剛剛在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到齁就是說剛剛那個事務長講的五千萬齁事實上有一部分其實我們已經處理了齁現在應該是這是多年累積的總額啦齁\n\n05:48.827 --> 05:56.411\n應該是剩下四千或三千多萬我們現在是這樣就是說因為這個欠費是這個受刑人看病那他跟這個醫療醫療法律關係但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的\n\n06:09.679 --> 06:24.219\n就是其實授權並不一定都沒有錢我們要憑良心的話講是這樣那針對經濟困難部分我們每年就有編八百萬的假設作業基金去支援那去年也增到一千萬那未來我們會在這個部分\n\n06:25.040 --> 06:49.397\n再跟這個健保署這邊來協商逐年我們會把這個過去的欠費跟未來如何處理這個部分的經費的問題我們會研理就是因為不夠才會你四年欠了下快五千萬嘛不只四年啦一百零二年到現在你那個一百一十二到一百一十四年的欠費你加一加就四千多萬\n\n06:51.396 --> 06:57.200\n但是還會有清場啦是嘛,所以我要跟他說已經不夠,好啦,這個問題我認為啊政府的責任啦,就是說這個我們為什麼一直要考察或者說在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的一個專報我們也很為難耶\n\n07:13.937 --> 07:31.845\n社會的氛圍是不利於來討論這個議題的社會的氛圍是常常是嗚這個人你看尤其事件剛發生的時候嗚這個好可惡喔你會殺人喔你會詐欺喔幹嘛幹嘛社會是討厭的社會那個時候的氣氛就是說吃粽管好事好啦起訴啦\n\n07:34.306 --> 07:59.583\n審判了嘛隨著時間會過去嘛這個社會必須要穩定嘛到發監執行了他就是變成我們穿著球衣的國民了嘛除了我們現行制度你有一個叫做終身監禁那你也不可能任何罪行全部都提高到終身監禁嘛所以你在監的時候怎麼樣去處理這個就是一個有名該去思考的一個問題啊否則你不用到現在說我長期我這個到最後是把整個累進廚育的一個條\n\n08:04.266 --> 08:26.661\n這個制度全部把它廢除掉因為大家殊客就是這樣嘛那接下來我要問啦就是說我們去考察這麼多監獄裡面啊署長你認為說喔這一些受刑人每一個月你們認為說他的作業金跟勞動這個部分作業金他一公尺多少有夠三千嘛您說的嘛對不對\n\n08:30.053 --> 08:44.764\n三千塊是維持他生活的基本費用的錢是所以呢我們說再到監獄裡面去你讓他學習謀生的技能那你這個剩下你這個作業10%\n\n08:47.645 --> 09:01.617\n犯罪被害人做一個補償幫助他來復歸這個社會可是你現在你這個累進等級你去掛鉤跟勞作金使用的一個比例這個應該去好好的做一個檢討啦你說三千啦\n\n09:03.564 --> 09:21.548\n那最高的現在多少?我們以北京來看好了,你是不是相關多少多少?北京它平均,按照我們的數據顯示它每個月大概是749塊749塊,跟你說的,三清差很多,你用700多少,北京平均?749塊你那是平均喔?相關的多少?\n\n09:30.950 --> 09:34.573\n我們有兩個數據啦一個數據是他一年的勞作金收入是7400多萬那平均下來就是749萬\n\n09:46.923 --> 10:05.272\n你是七千多萬你把總人數你去把它除一除我現在想知道的我當然很清楚你要拿到你要進階到譬如說你到二級你要關了越久以後他比較有機會去做到更好的好像是那個報酬的一個工作人家去賣人家賺錢我們賣不賣人家去賣比較有機會人家給你賺到這麼多作業金\n\n10:09.974 --> 10:17.340\n但是我必須要講的就是說,那個差距過大,像比如說我到台東去啊,我去我都會問,你一個月要做多少?多少你知道嗎?讓你以後最多的多少,可以出來做的。我問的,都沒差過一百塊。\n\n10:27.523 --> 10:32.407\n所以說你一個月在那個地方我們說要由於復歸這個社會復歸這個社會那你從作業金他領了多少我們就可以看得出來就是說他裡面做了什麼工作比較好的那些啦什麼麵包烘焙的啦有的沒的啦有的沒的那差不多都差不多到最後都修身養性乖到很乖啊你知道嗎那時候我們說站在比較高的分所嘛\n\n10:53.496 --> 11:12.609\n所以當然那個叫結果啦但是我們整體來看我們怎麼樣把勞作軍如果去做一個制度的改善因為你畢竟整個勞作軍是國家跟社會如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一\n\n11:15.082 --> 11:29.499\n這勞動跟勞作金你要讓它復歸這個社會你如果當成是這樣子的話而不是單純是要懲罰跟一種規訓的話那你可能做法會有所不同我不知道蘇丁你的看法是什麼報告委員\n\n11:30.160 --> 11:58.241\n我們勞作軍機關也希望能夠提高所以包括我們有一個評價會議我們評價會議也會請社會公正人士跟勞動部的勞動力發展署他對廠商比較了解來一起開會廠商一起過來然後當然基於廠商他也希望說壓低嘛那我們希望提高所以就是折衷這樣子那問題是比如所謂的勞動\n\n11:59.882 --> 12:20.321\n剛剛委員提到麵包烘培甚至有的是醬油工那個就很高那個平均大概一萬塊以上但是我們一般的勞作金沒那麼高這確實是這樣包括他的委託作業的項目比如說有些老人工廠他只能折那個紫蓮花那個就少了那個施工長署長先請回\n\n12:21.122 --> 12:38.169\n那個就少但是你如果分配到所謂的焊接工廠那個車廠的那個會比較高因為他有點技術所以可能跟委託座位的項目也是有點關係但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來是一個問題\n\n12:42.170 --> 12:45.471\n所以說你們要去找什麼可以去買你找就找到蓮花或是在消磨時間而已不是說那個不對啦有時候讓受刑人在裡面有工作可以做啦對他心情的穩定也不是壞事啦\n\n12:57.356 --> 13:11.464\n有一些比如說我們會找一些比如說提代外銷的那個算件也是錢不錯那個算是比如說外銷的我們盡量來找這種項目的啦但是也\n\n13:12.344 --> 13:27.590\n跟那個景氣有關係包括說在疫情期間再怎麼找也是很難啦你這樣講署長就失去你的專業了你反而像這一種你那個技術高的到最後一定是累進儲育的級數已經又變更高了啦是不是這樣說一定是這樣啊你像比如說你那個技術含量比較高的勞作經費比較高的工作你一定是夠累進儲育我看你至少到二級以上啦\n\n13:44.002 --> 13:45.482\n要不然你要怎麼去站在那裡?累進廚藝的級數跟委託作業的項目委員是覺得有關係我覺得有關係當然那產生的是一個結果這個應該沒有關係我會喔我認為會喔你要好好去做一個思考畢竟這個你更專業啦我是認為啦這樣子講啦就是說受刑人他\n\n14:13.587 --> 14:16.297\n是被我們社會排除之外的國民\n\n14:17.944 --> 14:46.121\n是這樣子嗎是一個問號還是你把它當成它是遲早要回歸我們這個社會的一個共同體我看大法官憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋憲法法庭也好或者說國外的一個法制你看連德國聯邦憲法法院他也去提到了就是說立法者必須去法律明確再社會化的一個概念講這一些\n\n14:47.470 --> 15:01.938\n台灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去但是你們叫做矯正機關啦你們叫做矯正機關啦那說這一個制度如何去做一個改進我覺得還是有必要我再強調一次就是說\n\n15:03.956 --> 15:29.987\n從案件發生到偵查到審判這個社會都是浮動判決確定以後隨著時間這樣子過去我們期待的是這個被法院判決的除非他已經死刑了跟這個社會永久隔離了或者他就是穿著球衣的國民他總是要復歸到這個社會我們所有矯正就是依照這樣的一個概念在運作\n\n15:31.428 --> 15:55.557\n再去做逐步的做一個修正嘛那所以這一些齁如果衝到那個壽星人我們去看說我給你關關到買啊我就看這個賣啊我也看不去啊我也要去欠銷啊再讓人家小證書來給他偷錢對醫院他有他的思考對壽星人來講的話這個到底符不符合人性尊嚴的一個部分基本的一個國民\n\n15:56.857 --> 16:07.781\n我倒認為政府可以多做點力啦是報告委員我可以講補充一句話嗎剛剛委員有提到那些作業是不是跟累進廚藝您認為有關係如果從這個精神來看\n\n16:12.543 --> 16:29.062\n他確實是跟累進廚藝沒有關係但是他會跟殘行有關係因為我們要做一些出塞他要去餓這個手拉啤的麵包的他一定比如說要三鍋味還是六鍋味才會出塞嘛\n\n16:29.722 --> 16:42.871\n所以我們會有一個申請說你產型一定要有三個月以上或六個月以上你才能夠來參加啦但是不會限說你一定要什麼級數你已經足以達到幾級沒有我們是用產型來篩選\n\n16:49.797 --> 17:12.914\n委員那個剛才那個委員所說的因為我們陳吳今天報告有講我們在這個累進主義制度事實上我們條例要廢止然後我們會在建議行政法修一些條文然後未來大部分的細節性的規定會用法規命令來訂定那委員今天所提示的報案簡報裡面所記載的我們都會回去納入未來我們原意改善的這個意見來參考\n\n17:13.835 --> 17:29.516\n是啦因為你那個各級別的差別待遇的或者說你那個整個現行的責任分數跟成績分數裡面自己都很清楚嘛那這一些本來就必須要到一併去做一個研議如何再去做修正的時候了啦好不好是我們都會檢討好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.854,"end":24.771,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們服務部黃次長還有矯正署周署長還有我們衛生福利部我們石署長 次長我也好"},{"start":25.952,"end":44.499,"text":"還有兩位署長好其實我剛才也提過了其實每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題來這個地方跟我們行政部門去做一個參考來做一個改善這也是立法院的一個監督所必須要我有幾個問題來就教我想從今天所提出來的報告裡面"},{"start":46.1,"end":62.758,"text":"在司法法制委員會我們也一直在呼籲就是整個現在的一個現行的雷金廚藝條例裡面那各級的差別還有這個整個責任分數跟成績分數跟長期我們整個矯正署的規劃目標"},{"start":63.619,"end":70.345,"text":"是把整個累進廚藥的制度把它給廢除掉到監獄刑刑法裡面去我想我提出幾個問題今天特別請署長上來的原因就是說在我們一般監獄裡面"},{"start":78.693,"end":84.056,"text":"受刑人,那其實他還是我們的國民,他只是穿著球衣的一個國民。那他在我們監獄裡面,生活的基本的一個需求,這個也都是我們國家去編列預算,來去做一個支付。"},{"start":97.563,"end":108.618,"text":"那可是呢 你說他的一個基本生活那基本生活到底包括哪一些就可以來做討論啦我記得我上禮拜就教過 就是說那時時屬長你沒來 就說"},{"start":113.086,"end":133.98,"text":"那在地的很多區域醫院,剛好各縣市都會有一些監獄,那你必須要到醫療院所來做服務,去看一看之後,受刑人,還是去看一看之後,進去服刑以後,他真的是有些跟家庭,或者說他本來的經濟狀況就不好。"},{"start":136.201,"end":143.828,"text":"那又進去服刑以後跟家庭,就是得不到家庭的一個支持連看病啊,到最後都欠繳啦,欠錢啦,看白就看不去啦所以,隆重,石署長你知不知道,到醫療院所裡面,給這個監獄受刑人,這樣欠多少錢"},{"start":155.839,"end":176.7,"text":"跟委員報告,保險費就是健保費的部分是都有矯正機關納罷啦,這就是部分負擔,還有一些醫療費用,從102年到現在大概差不多五千萬左右五千萬,你說你健保費,你看在矯正署,我們政府部門都已經編列這個健保費了"},{"start":177.381,"end":185.77,"text":"那只是說部分負擔的部分就是說一般老百姓去看病他也要繳錢你監獄受刑人你來你也要繳錢檢報員政府幫你編OK 市政規範這看起來好像是說我的政府我幫你建保會我幫你叫你的受刑人你自己沒錢要安裝可是另外有一招無辜啊醫院無辜啊"},{"start":202.085,"end":214.248,"text":"醫院無辜啊 你看譬如說 我一直在講台東馬街 我覺得他很無辜啊你們桃園部立醫院 他也無辜啊其他的醫療院所 你說欠了五千萬你問教證署 教證署說你這台我的事 那不是我的事啊我是人換人來 給你照顧 願意給你打扮 給你上便衣 健保衛生 又給你便利選 給你拉馬跟教證署又無關 可是站在那個醫療院所的立場就是 人你帶來啦"},{"start":229.387,"end":253.879,"text":"那個健保署的意思就是說你們的意思就是說不然那個不穩負擔本來就是你要繳的啊事大家講都好像都 彼此都沒事醫院 他說我沒辦法繳薪繳證署當然他必須要去協助去幫忙醫院啦 說不然你快吊吊的 去給他收工或是說他沒看來除了這些以外你也不能說繳證署你跳出來你要幫人 你帶來的 你要去付錢"},{"start":255.782,"end":274.525,"text":"你做醫療院所,你算主管機關,那各地的便衣店,你要怎樣,你有更好的方法嗎?跟委員報告,這個事情我們有在健保會討論過,因為健保署這邊的預算主要都是來自於"},{"start":275.986,"end":295.183,"text":"人民繳交的健保費所以用這個說法公平性上確實有它的爭議性但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔這些財務的風險所以我們一方面你這樣說也是無解啊我要說黃次長我的意思就是說我的意思就是說"},{"start":296.424,"end":306.808,"text":"這個我們都認定 受刑人在間的基本生活需求在間的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付日子之後 年期啦 電啦 食飯啦 這都國家嘛這都叫國家 如果你再去把它擴大的話 就是說醫療的部分"},{"start":318.744,"end":347.831,"text":"社會沒給支持嘛出來的人可能有的人沒給支持嘛因為他們家有錢要來給支持欠錢的地方就是自己沒錢啦還是他們家沒給支持這樣會產生這種狀況嘛我覺得要解決的有沒有方法 次長那剛委員報告齁這個剛剛在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到齁就是說剛剛那個事務長講的五千萬齁事實上有一部分其實我們已經處理了齁現在應該是這是多年累積的總額啦齁"},{"start":348.827,"end":356.411,"text":"應該是剩下四千或三千多萬我們現在是這樣就是說因為這個欠費是這個受刑人看病那他跟這個醫療醫療法律關係但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的"},{"start":369.679,"end":384.219,"text":"就是其實授權並不一定都沒有錢我們要憑良心的話講是這樣那針對經濟困難部分我們每年就有編八百萬的假設作業基金去支援那去年也增到一千萬那未來我們會在這個部分"},{"start":385.04,"end":409.397,"text":"再跟這個健保署這邊來協商逐年我們會把這個過去的欠費跟未來如何處理這個部分的經費的問題我們會研理就是因為不夠才會你四年欠了下快五千萬嘛不只四年啦一百零二年到現在你那個一百一十二到一百一十四年的欠費你加一加就四千多萬"},{"start":411.396,"end":417.2,"text":"但是還會有清場啦是嘛,所以我要跟他說已經不夠,好啦,這個問題我認為啊政府的責任啦,就是說這個我們為什麼一直要考察或者說在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的一個專報我們也很為難耶"},{"start":433.937,"end":451.845,"text":"社會的氛圍是不利於來討論這個議題的社會的氛圍是常常是 嗚 這個人你看尤其事件剛發生的時候 嗚 這個好可惡喔你會殺人喔 你會詐欺喔 幹嘛幹嘛 社會是討厭的社會那個時候的氣氛就是說 吃粽 管好事 好啦 起訴啦"},{"start":454.306,"end":479.583,"text":"審判了嘛隨著時間會過去嘛這個社會必須要穩定嘛到發監執行了他就是變成我們穿著球衣的國民了嘛除了我們現行制度你有一個叫做終身監禁那你也不可能任何罪行全部都提高到終身監禁嘛所以你在監的時候怎麼樣去處理這個就是一個有名該去思考的一個問題啊否則你不用到現在說我長期我這個到最後是把整個累進廚育的一個條"},{"start":484.266,"end":506.661,"text":"這個制度全部把它廢除掉因為大家殊客就是這樣嘛那接下來我要問啦就是說我們去考察這麼多監獄裡面啊署長你認為說喔這一些受刑人每一個月你們認為說他的作業金跟勞動這個部分作業金他一公尺多少有夠三千嘛 您說的嘛 對不對"},{"start":510.053,"end":524.764,"text":"三千塊是維持他生活的基本費用的錢是所以呢我們說再到監獄裡面去你讓他學習謀生的技能那你這個剩下你這個作業10%"},{"start":527.645,"end":541.617,"text":"犯罪被害人做一個補償幫助他來復歸這個社會可是你現在你這個累進等級你去掛鉤跟勞作金使用的一個比例這個應該去好好的做一個檢討啦你說三千啦"},{"start":543.564,"end":561.548,"text":"那最高的現在多少?我們以北京來看好了,你是不是相關多少多少?北京它平均,按照我們的數據顯示它每個月大概是749塊749塊,跟你說的,三清差很多,你用700多少,北京平均?749塊你那是平均喔?相關的多少?"},{"start":570.95,"end":574.573,"text":"我們有兩個數據啦一個數據是他一年的勞作金收入是7400多萬那平均下來就是749萬"},{"start":586.923,"end":605.272,"text":"你是七千多萬 你把總人數你去把它除一除我現在想知道的 我當然很清楚你要拿到 你要進階到 譬如說你到二級你要關了越久以後 他比較有機會去做到更好的好像是那個報酬的一個工作人家去賣人家賺錢我們賣不賣 人家去賣比較有機會人家給你賺到這麼多作業金"},{"start":609.974,"end":617.34,"text":"但是我必須要講的就是說,那個差距過大,像比如說我到台東去啊,我去我都會問,你一個月要做多少?多少你知道嗎?讓你以後最多的多少,可以出來做的。我問的,都沒差過一百塊。"},{"start":627.523,"end":632.407,"text":"所以說你一個月在那個地方我們說要由於復歸這個社會復歸這個社會那你從作業金他領了多少我們就可以看得出來就是說他裡面做了什麼工作比較好的那些啦 什麼麵包烘焙的啦有的沒的啦 有的沒的那差不多都差不多到最後都修身養性 乖到很乖啊你知道嗎那時候我們說站在比較高的分所嘛"},{"start":653.496,"end":672.609,"text":"所以當然那個叫結果啦 但是我們整體來看 我們怎麼樣把勞作軍如果去做一個制度的改善因為你畢竟整個勞作軍是國家跟社會 如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一"},{"start":675.082,"end":689.499,"text":"這勞動跟勞作金你要讓它復歸這個社會你如果當成是這樣子的話而不是單純是要懲罰跟一種規訓的話那你可能做法會有所不同我不知道蘇丁你的看法是什麼報告委員"},{"start":690.16,"end":718.241,"text":"我們勞作軍機關也希望能夠提高所以包括我們有一個評價會議我們評價會議也會請社會公正人士跟勞動部的勞動力發展署他對廠商比較了解來一起開會 廠商一起過來然後當然基於廠商他也希望說壓低嘛那我們希望提高所以就是折衷這樣子那問題是比如所謂的勞動"},{"start":719.882,"end":740.321,"text":"剛剛委員提到麵包 烘培 甚至有的是醬油工 那個就很高 那個平均大概一萬塊以上但是我們一般的勞作金沒那麼高 這確實是這樣包括他的委託作業的項目 比如說有些老人工廠他只能折那個紫蓮花 那個就少了那個施工長 署長先請回"},{"start":741.122,"end":758.169,"text":"那個就少但是你如果分配到所謂的焊接工廠那個車廠的那個會比較高因為他有點技術所以可能跟委託座位的項目也是有點關係但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來是一個問題"},{"start":762.17,"end":765.471,"text":"所以說你們要去找什麼可以去買你找就找到蓮花 或是在消磨時間而已不是說那個不對啦有時候讓受刑人在裡面 有工作可以做啦對他心情的穩定也不是壞事啦"},{"start":777.356,"end":791.464,"text":"有一些比如說我們會找一些比如說提代外銷的那個算件也是錢不錯那個算是比如說外銷的我們盡量來找這種項目的啦但是也"},{"start":792.344,"end":807.59,"text":"跟那個景氣有關係包括說在疫情期間再怎麼找也是很難啦你這樣講署長就失去你的專業了你反而像這一種你那個技術高的到最後一定是累進儲育的級數已經又變更高了啦是不是這樣說一定是這樣啊你像比如說你那個技術含量比較高的勞作經費比較高的工作你一定是夠累進儲育我看你至少到二級以上啦"},{"start":824.002,"end":825.482,"text":"要不然你要怎麼去站在那裡?累進廚藝的級數跟委託作業的項目委員是覺得有關係我覺得有關係當然那產生的是一個結果這個應該沒有關係我會喔 我認為會喔你要好好去做一個思考畢竟這個你更專業啦我是認為啦 這樣子講啦就是說受刑人他"},{"start":853.587,"end":856.297,"text":"是被我們社會排除之外的國民"},{"start":857.944,"end":886.121,"text":"是這樣子嗎 是一個問號還是你把它當成它是遲早要回歸我們這個社會的一個共同體我看大法官憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋憲法法庭也好或者說國外的一個法制你看連德國聯邦憲法法院他也去提到了就是說立法者必須去法律明確再社會化的一個概念講這一些"},{"start":887.47,"end":901.938,"text":"台灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去但是你們叫做矯正機關啦你們叫做矯正機關啦那說這一個制度如何去做一個改進我覺得還是有必要我再強調一次就是說"},{"start":903.956,"end":929.987,"text":"從案件發生到偵查到審判這個社會都是浮動判決確定以後隨著時間這樣子過去我們期待的是這個被法院判決的除非他已經死刑了跟這個社會永久隔離了或者他就是穿著球衣的國民他總是要復歸到這個社會我們所有矯正就是依照這樣的一個概念在運作"},{"start":931.428,"end":955.557,"text":"再去做逐步的做一個修正嘛那所以這一些齁 如果衝到那個壽星人我們去看說我給你關 關到買啊 我就看這個賣啊 我也看不去啊 我也要去欠銷啊 再讓人家小證書來給他偷錢對醫院他有他的思考對壽星人來講的話這個到底符不符合人性尊嚴的一個部分 基本的一個國民"},{"start":956.857,"end":967.781,"text":"我倒認為政府可以多做點力啦是 報告委員我可以講 補充一句話嗎剛剛委員有提到那些作業是不是跟累進廚藝您認為有關係如果從這個精神來看"},{"start":972.543,"end":989.062,"text":"他確實是跟累進廚藝沒有關係但是他會跟殘行有關係因為我們要做一些出塞他要去餓這個手拉啤的麵包的他一定比如說要三鍋味還是六鍋味才會出塞嘛"},{"start":989.722,"end":1002.871,"text":"所以我們會有一個申請說你產型一定要有三個月以上或六個月以上你才能夠來參加啦但是不會限說你一定要什麼級數你已經足以達到幾級沒有 我們是用產型來篩選"},{"start":1009.797,"end":1032.914,"text":"委員那個 剛才那個委員所說的因為我們陳吳今天報告有講我們在這個累進主義制度事實上我們條例要廢止然後我們會在建議行政法修一些條文然後未來大部分的細節性的規定會用法規命令來訂定那委員今天所提示的報案簡報裡面所記載的我們都會回去納入未來我們原意改善的這個意見來參考"},{"start":1033.835,"end":1049.516,"text":"是啦 因為你那個各級別的差別待遇的或者說你那個整個現行的責任分數跟成績分數裡面自己都很清楚嘛那這一些本來就必須要到一併去做一個研議如何再去做修正的時候了啦 好不好是 我們都會檢討好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":619,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請法務部黃次長、矯正署周署長，還有衛生福利部石署長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長、兩位署長好。其實我剛才提過了，每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題供行政部門去做參考與改善，這也是立法院的監督所必須要的。從今天所提出的報告裡面我有幾個問題來就教，我們在司法及法制委員會也一直在呼籲，現行的行刑累進處遇條例裡面各級的差別，還有整個責任分數跟成績分數，以及長期矯正署的規劃目標是把整個累進處遇的制度廢除掉，規定到監獄行刑法裡面去。我提出幾個問題，今天特別請石署長上來的原因是，在一般監獄裡面，受刑人其實還是我們的國民，只是是穿著囚衣的國民，他在監獄裡面生活的基本需求也都是由我們國家編列預算來支付，可是這個基本生活到底包括哪一些？就可以來做討論。我記得我上禮拜就教過，那時候石署長沒有來，就是各縣市都會有一些監獄與在地的區域醫院、醫療院所合作需要到監獄去服務，他們去看完之後，確實有些受刑人進去服刑以後，有些是跟家庭有關或者是他本來的經濟狀況就不好，進去服刑以後又得不到家庭的支持，連看病的費用到最後都欠繳、連看病都看不起，石署長，你知道各醫療院所讓這些監獄受刑人欠了多少錢嗎？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，因為健保費的部分是都由矯正機關繳了，再來就是部分負擔還有一些醫療費用，從102年到現在大概差不多是5,000萬左右。"],["莊委員瑞雄：5,000萬，我們政府部門、矯正署都已經編列健保費了，只是在部分負擔的部分，就是一般老百姓去看病也要繳錢的部分，監獄受刑人看病也要繳錢，至於健保費是政府編列，其他還欠了四千多萬，這看起來政府已經幫他們繳了健保費，是受刑人自己沒錢，那要怎麼辦？可是另外有一造無辜，醫院無辜啊！比如說我一直在講的臺東馬偕，我覺得它很無辜啊！桃園部立醫院也無辜啊！其他的醫療院所，你說欠了5,000萬，如果你問矯正署，矯正署說這怎麼是我的事情？那又不是我的事情，我是在受刑人進來之後照顧他，生病幫他送醫院，甚至都編預算幫他繳健保費了，跟矯正署又無關。可是站在醫療院所的立場就是，人是你帶來的，健保署的意思就是，部分負擔本來就是你要繳的，大家講的好像彼此都沒事，醫院說，不然我要找誰？矯正署當然必須要去協助、去幫忙醫院跟家屬說趕快繳一繳，除了這些以外，矯正署也不能跳出來說，人是我帶來的，我要去付錢。健保署，算是醫療院所的主管機關，對於各地的醫院遇到這種情況，你有什麼比較好的方法嗎？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，這個事情我們也有在健保會討論過，因為健保署的預算主要都是來自於人民繳交的健保費，所以用這個去貼補，在公平性上確實有它的爭議性，但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔財務風險，所以我們一方面……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你這樣講也是無解啊！黃次長，我的意思就是說，我們都認定受刑人在監的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付，進去之後，冷氣、電、吃飯等都是國家支付，如果再把範圍擴大的話，等於是醫療的部分，社會不支持、家裡的人可能不支持，除非他家裡有錢要支持他，會欠錢的大部分就是自己沒錢，或是他家裡不支持他，才會產生這種狀況嘛！我覺得這要解決，次長，有沒有方法？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，這個在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到，剛剛石署長講的5,000萬，事實上有一部分我們已經處理了，這是多年累積的總額，應該是剩下四千或三千多萬……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這筆錢你們從哪裡來的？"],["黃次長世杰：我們現在是這樣，因為欠費是受刑人看病，他跟醫療院所之間的關係。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["黃次長世杰：但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的，其實受刑人並不一定都沒有錢，我們憑良心講的話是這樣，針對經濟困難的部分，我們每年有編800萬的矯正作業基金去支應，去年也增加到1,000萬，未來在這個部分我們會再跟健保署來協商，對於過去的欠費跟未來如何處理，這個部分的經費問題我們會研擬逐年支應。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就是因為不夠才會四年欠了快5,000萬嘛！"],["黃次長世杰：不只四年。"],["石署長崇良：102年到現在。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你把112年到114年的欠費加一加就四千多萬耶！等於四年就這樣了，對不對？"],["石署長崇良：但是還會有清償啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！所以我要跟你說的是，一定不夠。好啦！這個問題我認為是政府的責任，我們為什麼一直要考察，或者在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的專報？我們現在很為難耶！社會的氛圍是不利於討論這個議題，社會的氛圍常常是這樣，尤其是事件剛發生的時候，他們會認為這個人好可惡，他會殺人、他會詐欺，幹嘛、幹嘛，社會是討厭的，社會的氣氛是加重刑期，把他關到死。好了，起訴了、審判了，隨著時間會過去嘛！這個社會必須要穩定，到發監執行了，他就變成我們穿著囚衣的國民了，除非我們的現行制度有一個叫做終身監禁，但我們也不可能任何罪刑全部都提高到終身監禁，所以他在監的時候要怎麼樣去處理，這個就是一個該去思考的問題，否則現在不用說你們到最後是把整個累進處遇制度廢除掉，大家思考的就是這樣嘛！","接下來我要問，我們去考察這麼多監獄，署長，這些受刑人每個月的勞動與勞作金要多少才夠？3,000元是你們說的，對不對？是不是這樣說？"],["周署長輝煌：對，3,000塊是維持他生活基本費用的錢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，所以我們說，到監獄裡面去，你讓他學習謀生的技能，將這個作業賸餘的10%作為對犯罪被害人的補償，幫助他復歸社會，可是現在你把累進等級跟勞作金可使用數的比例掛勾，這個應該好好去做一個檢討。你說3,000元，那現在最高的是多少？我們以北監來看好了，現在最高的一個月差不多多少？"],["周署長輝煌：按照我們的數據顯示，北監平均每個月大概是749塊。"],["莊委員瑞雄：749塊，跟你說的3,000元差很多，你說北監平均是七百多少？"],["周署長輝煌：749塊。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你說的是平均，最高的差不多是多少？你那個是平均值啊！"],["周署長輝煌：我們沒有列最高的，我們有兩個數據，一個數據是一年的勞作金收入是七千四百多萬，平均下來就是749元。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！你是用七千多萬去除以總人數，我現在想知道的是，我當然很清楚，譬如他要進階到二級，他要關了越久以後比較有機會去做到更好報酬的工作，剛進去的人哪有機會讓他賺到這些勞作金？但是我必須要講，那個差距過大，比如說我到臺東的時候都會問，你一個月的作業金是多少？你知不知道是多少？讓你猜可以出來做的最低是多少？我問的都沒有超過100塊，最低只有八十幾塊而已、88塊而已。我們說要讓他復歸這個社會，但是我們從他領了多少勞作金就可以看得出來他在裡面做什麼工作，比較好的像麵包烘焙、畫圖，有的沒的，那些到最後都修身養性，被關得很乖了，才可以拿到比較高的分數。當然那個叫結果，但是整體來看，我們怎麼樣把勞作金去做一個制度的改善？畢竟勞作金是國家跟社會如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一，如果你把這個勞動與勞作金當成是要讓他復歸社會的處遇，而不是單純的懲罰跟規訓的話，那你的作法可能會有所不同，我不知道署長你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們機關也希望勞作金能夠提高，所以我們有一個評價會議，這個評價會議也會請社會公正人士跟勞動部勞動力發展署（它對廠商比較了解）一起開會，廠商也一起過來，當然基於廠商希望壓低，而我們希望提高，所以就是折衷。問題是，剛剛委員有提到麵包烘焙，甚至於有的是醬油工，那個就很高，那個平均大概1萬塊以上，但是我們一般的勞作金沒有那麼高，這確實是這樣，包括委託作業的項目，比如說有些老人工場，他只能折紙蓮花，那個就少了，但是他如果分配到所謂的焊接工場、車床的，那個就會比較高，因為它有一點技術，所以可能跟委託作業的項目也是有點關係，但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來也是一個問題……"],["莊委員瑞雄：技術低的，當然它的勞作金一定低啊！所以要看你們去招什麼廠商進來，你們招那個折蓮花的，真的只是在消磨時間而已，不是說那個不對啦，有時候讓受刑人在裡面有工作可以做，對他心情的穩定也不是壞事，但是那個產生的勞作金都很低啊！"],["周署長輝煌：比如我們會找一些提袋、外銷的，那個算件數的錢也是不錯，我們儘量來找這種項目的，但是也跟景氣有關係，包括像在疫情期間，再怎麼找也是很難啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：No！署長，你這樣講就失去你的專業了，像這種技術高的，到最後一定是累進處遇的級數已經又變更高了，難道不是這樣說嗎？一定是這樣啊！比如技術含量比較高的、勞作金比較高的工作，一定是到累進處遇比較高，我看至少是到二級以上，不然他怎麼去拿到那麼高的勞作金？"],["周署長輝煌：委員是覺得累進處遇的級數跟委託作業的項目有關係？"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得有關係，當然那產生的是一個結果，剛進去的……"],["周署長輝煌：這個應該沒有關係。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我認為會喔！你好好去做一個思考，畢竟這個你更專業啦！我是認為，受刑人是被社會排除在外的非國民，是這樣子嗎？這是一個問號，還是你把他當成遲早要回歸社會的一個共同體？我看大法官憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋，憲法法庭也好或者國外的法制，你看連德國聯邦憲法法院也提到，立法者必須法律明確再社會化的概念。講這一些臺灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去，但是你們叫做矯正機關，所以這個制度如何去做一個改進，我覺得還是有必要。我再強調一次，案件發生到偵查、到審判，這個社會都是浮動的，判決確定以後，隨著時間過去，我們期待的是這個被法院判決的受刑人，除非他已經被判死刑，跟社會永久隔離了，否則他就是穿著囚衣的國民，他總是要復歸到這個社會，我們所有的矯正就是依照這樣的概念在運作，再去做逐步的修正，所以我們去看，如果做到讓那些受刑人說，我被你關到最後連看病也看不起，要去欠帳，還要讓人家來矯正署跟我要錢，對醫院來說它有它的思考，但對受刑人來講的話，這個到底符不符合基本國民人性尊嚴的部分，我倒認為政府可以多出點力啦！"],["周署長輝煌：是，報告委員，我可以補充一句話嗎？剛剛委員有提到，您認為那些作業是不是跟累進處遇有關係，如果從精神來看，它確實是跟累進處遇沒有關係，但是它會跟殘刑有關係。"],["莊委員瑞雄：會，一定會。"],["周署長輝煌：因為有一些要出師，比如說他要去學手拉胚也好、麵包也好，一定要3個月或6個月才有辦法出師，所以我們會有一個甄選，就是受刑人的殘刑一定要有3個月或6個月以上，才能來參加，但不會限制一定要什麼級數或累進處遇達到幾級等，沒有，我們是用殘刑來篩選。"],["黃次長世杰：剛才委員所說的，誠如我們今天報告提及的，就是有關累進處遇制度的這個條例事實上是要廢止的，然後我們會在監獄行刑法中修一些條文，未來大部分細節性規定，也會用法規命令訂定。委員今天所提示的，包含簡報裡面所記載的，我們回去都會納入未來我們研議改善的意見來參考。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！因為各級別的差別待遇，或者整個現行責任分數跟成績分數，你們自己都很清楚，這些本來就到了必須一併研議如何再做修正的時候，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們都會檢討。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：謝謝。我先作一個會議程序的宣告：稍後請吳思瑤委員詢答完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請沈發惠委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}}