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{\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,694 --> 00:00:26,654\n好謝謝主席辛苦了然後請次長請黃次長還有署長哪一個周署長周署長我特別要請石崇良署長石署長衛福部市委員好\n\n2\n00:00:28,476 --> 00:00:54,844\n好大家辛苦了真的很謝謝我們主席這段時間透過排鑽報告以及去現場的考察讓我們對於育政的改革有很多共同的共識但是它畢竟是一個漫長的道路那今天也是為了準備今天的質詢我才特別去了解了現行的我們累進儲育的相關的做法它真的很不人性那個石署長您在這裡\n\n3\n00:00:56,865 --> 00:01:12,606\n社會處方籤這個從英國開始倡議的透過導入社會處方籤也是透過藝術透過運動或是透過接觸綠色植物乃至於透過閱讀它有非常多的方式讓\n\n4\n00:01:14,700 --> 00:01:27,088\n長照也好或是心理健康衝擊他需要去緩解情緒的人乃至於到癒症的體系的使用世衛處方謙你們現在到底進展到哪裡了\n\n5\n00:01:28,482 --> 00:01:46,858\n在台灣跟委員報告確實從越來越多的證據發現慢性病其實不是單純靠藥物它很多跟生活習慣相關所以近年來在各國都慢慢地在導入\n\n6\n00:01:47,719 --> 00:02:04,008\n不論是在美國叫做生活型態醫學或者是在英國、加拿大稱為社會處方籤都是類似的除了藥物之外要把營養、運動、壓力的調節甚至社會的連結叫做socialconnection\n\n7\n00:02:08,030 --> 00:02:24,859\n您說的比較偏向physicalhealth如果在mentalhealth我們對應於預症革新的這種在社會化的部分您要不要分享一下當然這個需要有資源的連結社會處方雖然是經過評估之後認為他應該\n\n8\n00:02:29,702 --> 00:02:43,016\n病人的需要要朝哪個方向去做調整可是他需要有其他的資源這個不全是醫療資源沒錯他需要有視覺藝術博物館群的協力或者是表演藝術兩聽院音樂廳的協力\n\n9\n00:02:46,520 --> 00:03:00,656\n好謝謝署長我還是期待因為我一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您今天藉這個機會從英國2019年全方位的他們去設立的這個社會處方國家研究院開始他們\n\n10\n00:03:01,397 --> 00:03:05,740\n透過他們目標就是去年達標2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用了社會處房錢而且經過學術的這個檢視跟政策的檢視確實達到了他們對於門診量少了12%對於醫療的這個花費\n\n11\n00:03:21,953 --> 00:03:40,107\n減少了百分之十五到二十另外很重要的是每投資一英鎊可以回收三點五英鎊的對於整體不管是physicalhealth或是mentalhealth的健康回收好所以我們一定要持續的強化我後續會用一個比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論好您請回\n\n12\n00:03:42,403 --> 00:04:07,365\n我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長有一些反饋當我在研究你們這個不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利然後受刑人的管理的這個級別的分類他累積分數我覺得住處就是說他的監所可以放放花草\n\n13\n00:04:08,396 --> 00:04:17,829\n他可以學畫畫或是他可以擁有書籍或是他可以擁有家屬的照片或是他可以聽音樂這些東西請問你們現在的分級\n\n14\n00:04:23,796 --> 00:04:42,893\n這些所謂的社會處方我剛剛對應於就是說去討養一個人在社會化他的心性可是在你們的不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同權利的分級裡頭反而對於很需要去再處遇再教化的人他是很難得到這些競變性耶對於音樂藝術書籍都很難對不對\n\n15\n00:04:46,753 --> 00:05:07,582\n報告委員我們監所對於剛委員講的應該是一種植物療法也好藝術療法也好我們並不會限於說他一定要累進除疫比如二級才能參加那是額外你們辦的但是如果在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利\n\n16\n00:05:08,542 --> 00:05:25,240\n他擁有一本書可以聽音樂這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性的都因為他的犯案的刑期不同他被剝奪了他同樣禁用藝術文化的權利\n\n17\n00:05:26,101 --> 00:05:42,949\n我了解你們的管理需求對不起那個次長在皺眉頭沒關係我來把我的論述講一下首先我還是要先說空間跟人力是我們整個育政改革的核心我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革下一頁\n\n18\n00:05:43,689 --> 00:05:57,923\n但是空間改革我要提醒你們就你們自己希望的是每個受刑人的這個享有的空間不小於一坪啦但是這是目標現行的法規是只有到0.7坪\n\n19\n00:05:59,324 --> 00:06:22,037\n好這是法規面但是你們的這個矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規格希望能夠略大於一坪可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到OK不要讓它只是遙遠的理想如果哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到我們真的都不要放棄好我要再一次提醒好下一頁\n\n20\n00:06:23,379 --> 00:06:51,512\n那空間之外就人力我這邊呈現出來的是我上一次質詢有提到的介護人員、教化人員、心社人員跟執訓人員的人力比而當中比較餘裕的是心社人員我上一次質詢有提出來來下一頁好這個是公共電視去年有一個節目他們是在探討其實連寓所的管理員他們的工作場域都非常的\n\n21\n00:06:52,492 --> 00:07:19,797\n糟糕是不是寓所的管理員如同這個劇裡頭所呈現他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣是這樣嗎應該不是這樣包括他背景是休息的地方是有冷氣的包括我們有一些像豐原書斋它裡面也有冷氣包括煮咖啡那邊等於給他休閒用的地方會有但是如果是在工廠或是社房\n\n22\n00:07:20,777 --> 00:07:50,263\n我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇電風扇那個是沒有冷氣那但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇所以說這個戲劇當中所呈現的預鎖管理員的這個心聲並不完全符合事實就對了因為如果說相關的活動在我們的教會堂也都會開冷氣嘛因為人那麼多你不開冷氣可能有人會暈倒\n\n23\n00:07:50,703 --> 00:08:17,964\n那我希望真的是我多慮了這透過一個這個節目的呈現確實讓我們也關心起寓所管理員他本身的工作的環境跟狀態下業但事實上離退率是越來越高我們這個也不容否認不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都因為他的管教壓力大我們都高於世界各國這上週我們已經處理過了\n\n24\n00:08:19,105 --> 00:08:41,844\n所以呢我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做處理那回到剛剛我要求教於次長喔累進制是我們現在做的但是不管司改會也好或你們今天自己的報告也好都說我們希望能夠跟進世界朝一個風險評估的膳食制去推進你剛剛也說\n\n25\n00:08:43,005 --> 00:09:09,135\n傾向會把累進制這個處遇條例可能未來未來我不曉得是多久以後的未來來進行廢止可是這當中我非常同意剛剛我們這個昭偉他最後的一個結論其實隱藏在整個遇政的管理思維的背後他是一個國家治理官台灣持續的用管理的導向在面對我們的遇政可事實上如果多往人權的方向去\n\n26\n00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:38,081\n貼近一點或者是教化的部分多貼近一點他會有完全不同的思維這就是我剛剛說的下一頁為什麼因為我看到你們不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利一級二級三級四級然後不同刑度的人要累積多少分才能夠享有他親近書籍親近聽音樂然後放家屬的照片我都覺得這個很不人性\n\n27\n00:09:39,611 --> 00:10:04,900\n對於一個人來講我認為他的藝術的親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇協助他再社會化我認為他不應當因為他的行度而去剝奪了他這些權利可是你們現在矯正署說的國情不同所以呢超額收容然後這個受刑人跟教化人員人數懸殊比\n\n28\n00:10:06,001 --> 00:10:23,896\n很懸殊以至於我們這個實施風險評估的條件畏懼我都理解這是現在的困境可是這是一個大災問也是我要挑戰的為什麼他們對於清淨書籍音樂因為它的積分很多人在是沒有辦法享有這些權利的這跟積分有關嗎我不懂\n\n29\n00:10:29,441 --> 00:10:47,710\n來沒關係也許我理解錯誤但是可以說明因為有一些細節譬如說它因為我們都有圖書室然後還有一些就是剛委員說的這些私人物品這些東西是不是真的跟那個累進有那麼深的直接執行關係可能我們會後我們再提供給委員實際執行狀況\n\n30\n00:10:49,591 --> 00:11:07,728\n那我想這個因為剛剛我們今天在報告也有提到就是說這個新型累進處於條例目前我們修法的進度已經報送這個行政院剛剛才最近這幾天報送那他會搭配新的這個建議新法的修改然後這個所謂傳統的累進制\n\n31\n00:11:11,511 --> 00:11:37,464\n這樣的一個制度會做大幅的調整但是也稱呼我剛剛非常正確的提出來就是說軟硬體的設施還有我們人力的這個不只是數量的問題還有這個專業這個可能管理的制度都要做調整那我們為了維持這個安全跟這個社會上的穩定所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝所以我們會在這個方向上\n\n32\n00:11:38,204 --> 00:12:00,129\n逐步的來往這個所謂的善時制因為這其實都是idealtype它並不是說怎麼樣具體的條文是怎麼樣所以我們會往這個方向去做我們也當然希望推動更貼近人權然後更個別化主義的相關的這些做法那但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到這個新設人力我們也是在最近這幾年\n\n33\n00:12:01,329 --> 00:12:23,786\n向人種來爭取那也是從這個醫師人員要改成這個約用約固那我們會一步一步因為每一個階段都要被檢討這個成效是否有效益然後我們才能夠再往前進那當然還有硬體改善的部分我們也陸陸續續都排定了很多的計畫那因為真的很多的這個設防都是非常的老舊\n\n34\n00:12:25,127 --> 00:12:42,975\n我們現在如果去做這些改善可能效果也有限我們會全力來推動逐年在國家財政允許的情況底下逐年來做改善好時間到了也超過時間了我是真的很懇切的分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得\n\n35\n00:12:43,975 --> 00:12:57,301\n導入了藝術文化也許從閱讀也許從音樂也許從觀賞當然在監獄裡頭他不太可能直接去觀賞這個所謂社會處方間去看去美術館去表演音樂聽可是透過給他們聆聽音樂跟閱讀書籍\n\n36\n00:13:02,703 --> 00:13:24,164\n我認為這都是很小的成本只是從管理我確實知道你們管理層面你們都希望管理方便也擔心這當中會不會有危險的因子可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本和會達到一個教化的效果至少安定comfort這些受刑人的情緒這是非常重要這是小小的\n\n37\n00:13:25,583 --> 00:13:46,217\n成本它會有你意想不到的效益不要單純從管理方面的思維去思考如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進儲育的積分我怎麼看對於獸型他可能型度高一點的人他連拿到一本書他要累積多少分啊他要累積三四百分以上\n\n38\n00:13:51,264 --> 00:14:08,662\n這個執行的細節我們再跟我們報告好因為我非常想要一起去理解我希望我沒有理解錯誤我想講的你們都非常清楚有一些東西是小小的成本也許會有不同的效益包括我一直在催生的可以讓我們的貓狗的療癒的功能\n\n39\n00:14:09,122 --> 00:14:24,055\n在比較世界各國的經驗你們現在開始做全訓班很好但是很多東西這都有醫學的實證好不好我們後續如果有機會只是比較可惜啊署長這段時間林旭秋波每天都質詢您但就這個部分我可以私下再跟您多一點討論就叫跟您請教好嗎\n\n40\n00:14:28,699 --> 00:14:52,274\n我們對於讀書會我們都積極來推動包括說不可能是說你要幾集才可以借書我們包括行動行為書車也都是鼓勵大家來借所以這個有幫助求情穩定所以這個部分我們都會那如果都有的話為什麼要有這些不同層級的這些\n\n41\n00:14:54,316 --> 00:15:05,151\n住所可放花草書籍家屬照片規定的這麼嚴格你所說的是我有一個共同的機會你可以來讀書有一個共同的機會你可以來聽音樂那\n\n42\n00:15:06,912 --> 00:15:29,487\n共同集會的機會有多少甚至也包括他們擁有收音機小型電視一般可以到九點他們都可以來聽的他們有適度的自由我們再討論但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單好不好沒關係我們繼續討論也辛苦了署長我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢您\n\n43\n00:15:31,588 --> 00:15:37,016\n不可能啊好沒關係但是蘇哈就有一個學者專家的身份來跟您討論政策謝謝也謝謝次長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12694\t26654\t好謝謝主席辛苦了然後請次長請黃次長還有署長哪一個周署長周署長我特別要請石崇良署長石署長衛福部市委員好\n28476\t54844\t好 大家辛苦了真的很謝謝我們主席這段時間透過排鑽報告以及去現場的考察讓我們對於育政的改革有很多共同的共識但是它畢竟是一個漫長的道路那今天也是為了準備今天的質詢我才特別去了解了現行的我們累進儲育的相關的做法它真的很不人性那個石署長您在這裡\n56865\t72606\t社會處方籤這個從英國開始倡議的透過導入社會處方籤也是透過藝術透過運動或是透過接觸綠色植物乃至於透過閱讀它有非常多的方式讓\n74700\t87088\t長照也好或是心理健康衝擊他需要去緩解情緒的人乃至於到癒症的體系的使用世衛處方謙你們現在到底進展到哪裡了\n88482\t106858\t在台灣跟委員報告確實從越來越多的證據發現慢性病其實不是單純靠藥物它很多跟生活習慣相關所以近年來在各國都慢慢地在導入\n107719\t124008\t不論是在美國叫做生活型態醫學或者是在英國、加拿大稱為社會處方籤都是類似的除了藥物之外要把營養、運動、壓力的調節甚至社會的連結叫做social connection\n128030\t144859\t您說的比較偏向physical health如果在mental health我們對應於預症革新的這種在社會化的部分您要不要分享一下當然這個需要有資源的連結社會處方雖然是經過評估之後認為他應該\n149702\t163016\t病人的需要 要朝哪個方向去做調整可是他需要有其他的資源這個不全是醫療資源沒錯 他需要有視覺藝術博物館群的協力或者是表演藝術 兩聽院 音樂廳的協力\n166520\t180656\t好 謝謝署長我還是期待因為我一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您今天藉這個機會從英國2019年全方位的他們去設立的這個社會處方國家研究院開始他們\n181397\t185740\t透過他們目標就是去年達標2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用了社會處房錢而且經過學術的這個檢視跟政策的檢視確實達到了他們對於門診量少了12%對於醫療的這個花費\n201953\t220107\t減少了百分之十五到二十另外很重要的是每投資一英鎊可以回收三點五英鎊的對於整體不管是physical health或是mental health的健康回收好所以我們一定要持續的強化我後續會用一個比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論好您請回\n222403\t247365\t我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長有一些反饋當我在研究你們這個不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利然後受刑人的管理的這個級別的分類他累積分數我覺得住處就是說他的監所可以放放花草\n248396\t257829\t他可以學畫畫或是他可以擁有書籍或是他可以擁有家屬的照片或是他可以聽音樂這些東西請問你們現在的分級\n263796\t282893\t這些所謂的社會處方我剛剛對應於就是說去討養一個人在社會化他的心性可是在你們的不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同權利的分級裡頭反而對於很需要去再處遇再教化的人他是很難得到這些競變性耶對於音樂藝術書籍都很難對不對\n286753\t307582\t報告委員我們監所對於剛委員講的應該是一種植物療法也好藝術療法也好我們並不會限於說他一定要累進除疫比如二級才能參加那是額外你們辦的但是如果在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利\n308542\t325240\t他擁有一本書可以聽音樂這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性的都因為他的犯案的刑期不同他被剝奪了他同樣禁用藝術文化的權利\n326101\t342949\t我了解你們的管理需求對不起那個次長在皺眉頭沒關係我來把我的論述講一下首先我還是要先說空間跟人力是我們整個育政改革的核心我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革下一頁\n343689\t357923\t但是空間改革我要提醒你們就你們自己希望的是每個受刑人的這個享有的空間不小於一坪啦但是這是目標現行的法規是只有到0.7坪\n359324\t382037\t好這是法規面但是你們的這個矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規格希望能夠略大於一坪可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到OK不要讓它只是遙遠的理想如果哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到我們真的都不要放棄好我要再一次提醒好下一頁\n383379\t411512\t那空間之外就人力我這邊呈現出來的是我上一次質詢有提到的介護人員、教化人員、心社人員跟執訓人員的人力比而當中比較餘裕的是心社人員我上一次質詢有提出來來 下一頁好 這個是公共電視去年有一個節目他們是在探討其實連寓所的管理員他們的工作場域都非常的\n412492\t439797\t糟糕是不是寓所的管理員如同這個劇裡頭所呈現他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣是這樣嗎應該不是這樣包括他背景是休息的地方是有冷氣的包括我們有一些像豐原書斋它裡面也有冷氣包括煮咖啡那邊等於給他休閒用的地方會有但是如果是在工廠或是社房\n440777\t470263\t我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇電風扇那個是沒有冷氣那但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇所以說這個戲劇當中所呈現的預鎖管理員的這個心聲並不完全符合事實就對了因為如果說相關的活動在我們的教會堂也都會開冷氣嘛因為人那麼多你不開冷氣可能有人會暈倒\n470703\t497964\t那我希望真的是我多慮了這透過一個這個節目的呈現確實讓我們也關心起寓所管理員他本身的工作的環境跟狀態下業但事實上離退率是越來越高我們這個也不容否認不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都因為他的管教壓力大我們都高於世界各國這上週我們已經處理過了\n499105\t521844\t所以呢我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做處理那回到剛剛我要求教於次長喔累進制是我們現在做的但是不管司改會也好或你們今天自己的報告也好都說我們希望能夠跟進世界朝一個風險評估的膳食制去推進你剛剛也說\n523005\t549135\t傾向會把累進制這個處遇條例可能未來未來我不曉得是多久以後的未來來進行廢止可是這當中我非常同意剛剛我們這個昭偉他最後的一個結論其實隱藏在整個遇政的管理思維的背後他是一個國家治理官台灣持續的用管理的導向在面對我們的遇政可事實上如果多往人權的方向去\n550400\t578081\t貼近一點或者是教化的部分多貼近一點他會有完全不同的思維這就是我剛剛說的下一頁為什麼因為我看到你們不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利一級二級三級四級然後不同刑度的人要累積多少分才能夠享有他親近書籍親近聽音樂然後放家屬的照片我都覺得這個很不人性\n579611\t604900\t對於一個人來講我認為他的藝術的親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇協助他再社會化我認為他不應當因為他的行度而去剝奪了他這些權利可是你們現在矯正署說的國情不同所以呢超額收容然後這個受刑人跟教化人員人數懸殊比\n606001\t623896\t很懸殊 以至於我們這個實施風險評估的條件 畏懼我都理解這是現在的困境可是這是一個大災問 也是我要挑戰的為什麼他們對於清淨書籍 音樂因為它的積分很多人在 是沒有辦法享有這些權利的這跟積分有關嗎我不懂\n629441\t647710\t來沒關係也許我理解錯誤但是可以說明因為有一些細節譬如說它因為我們都有圖書室然後還有一些就是剛委員說的這些私人物品這些東西是不是真的跟那個累進有那麼深的直接執行關係可能我們會後我們再提供給委員實際執行狀況\n649591\t667728\t那我想這個因為剛剛我們今天在報告也有提到就是說這個新型累進處於條例目前我們修法的進度已經報送這個行政院剛剛才最近這幾天報送那他會搭配新的這個建議新法的修改然後這個所謂傳統的累進制\n671511\t697464\t這樣的一個制度會做大幅的調整但是也稱呼我剛剛非常正確的提出來就是說軟硬體的設施還有我們人力的這個不只是數量的問題還有這個專業這個可能管理的制度都要做調整那我們為了維持這個安全跟這個社會上的穩定所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝所以我們會在這個方向上\n698204\t720129\t逐步的來往這個所謂的善時制因為這其實都是ideal type它並不是說怎麼樣具體的條文是怎麼樣所以我們會往這個方向去做我們也當然希望推動更貼近人權然後更個別化主義的相關的這些做法那但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到這個新設人力我們也是在最近這幾年\n721329\t743786\t向人種來爭取那也是從這個醫師人員要改成這個約用 約固那我們會一步一步因為每一個階段都要被檢討這個成效是否有效益然後我們才能夠再往前進那當然還有硬體改善的部分我們也陸陸續續都排定了很多的計畫那因為真的很多的這個設防都是非常的老舊\n745127\t762975\t我們現在如果去做這些改善可能效果也有限我們會全力來推動逐年在國家財政允許的情況底下逐年來做改善好 時間到了也超過時間了我是真的很懇切的分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得\n763975\t777301\t導入了藝術文化也許從閱讀也許從音樂也許從觀賞當然在監獄裡頭他不太可能直接去觀賞這個所謂社會處方間去看去美術館去表演音樂聽可是透過給他們聆聽音樂跟閱讀書籍\n782703\t804164\t我認為這都是很小的成本只是從管理我確實知道你們管理層面你們都希望管理方便也擔心這當中會不會有危險的因子可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本和會達到一個教化的效果至少安定comfort這些受刑人的情緒這是非常重要這是小小的\n805583\t826217\t成本它會有你意想不到的效益不要單純從管理方面的思維去思考如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進儲育的積分我怎麼看對於獸型他可能型度高一點的人他連拿到一本書他要累積多少分啊他要累積三四百分以上\n831264\t848662\t這個執行的細節我們再跟我們報告好因為我非常想要一起去理解我希望我沒有理解錯誤我想講的你們都非常清楚有一些東西是小小的成本也許會有不同的效益包括我一直在催生的可以讓我們的貓狗的療癒的功能\n849122\t864055\t在比較世界各國的經驗你們現在開始做全訓班很好但是很多東西這都有醫學的實證好不好我們後續如果有機會只是比較可惜啊署長這段時間林旭秋波每天都質詢您但就這個部分我可以私下再跟您多一點討論就叫跟您請教好嗎\n868699\t892274\t我們對於讀書會我們都積極來推動包括說 不可能是說你要幾集才可以借書我們包括行動 行為 書車也都是鼓勵大家來借所以這個有幫助求情穩定所以這個部分我們都會那如果都有的話為什麼要有這些不同層級的這些\n894316\t905151\t住所可放花草書籍家屬照片規定的這麼嚴格你所說的是我有一個共同的機會你可以來讀書有一個共同的機會你可以來聽音樂那\n906912\t929487\t共同集會的機會有多少甚至也包括他們擁有收音機小型電視一般可以到九點他們都可以來聽的他們有適度的自由我們再討論但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單好不好沒關係我們繼續討論也辛苦了署長我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢您\n931588\t937016\t不可能啊好 沒關係 但是蘇哈就有一個學者專家的身份來跟您討論政策 謝謝也謝謝次長 謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席辛苦了然後請次長請黃次長還有署長哪一個周署長周署長我特別要請石崇良署長石署長衛福部市委員好\n好 大家辛苦了真的很謝謝我們主席這段時間透過排鑽報告以及去現場的考察讓我們對於育政的改革有很多共同的共識但是它畢竟是一個漫長的道路那今天也是為了準備今天的質詢我才特別去了解了現行的我們累進儲育的相關的做法它真的很不人性那個石署長您在這裡\n社會處方籤這個從英國開始倡議的透過導入社會處方籤也是透過藝術透過運動或是透過接觸綠色植物乃至於透過閱讀它有非常多的方式讓\n長照也好或是心理健康衝擊他需要去緩解情緒的人乃至於到癒症的體系的使用世衛處方謙你們現在到底進展到哪裡了\n在台灣跟委員報告確實從越來越多的證據發現慢性病其實不是單純靠藥物它很多跟生活習慣相關所以近年來在各國都慢慢地在導入\n不論是在美國叫做生活型態醫學或者是在英國、加拿大稱為社會處方籤都是類似的除了藥物之外要把營養、運動、壓力的調節甚至社會的連結叫做social connection\n您說的比較偏向physical health如果在mental health我們對應於預症革新的這種在社會化的部分您要不要分享一下當然這個需要有資源的連結社會處方雖然是經過評估之後認為他應該\n病人的需要 要朝哪個方向去做調整可是他需要有其他的資源這個不全是醫療資源沒錯 他需要有視覺藝術博物館群的協力或者是表演藝術 兩聽院 音樂廳的協力\n好 謝謝署長我還是期待因為我一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您今天藉這個機會從英國2019年全方位的他們去設立的這個社會處方國家研究院開始他們\n透過他們目標就是去年達標2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用了社會處房錢而且經過學術的這個檢視跟政策的檢視確實達到了他們對於門診量少了12%對於醫療的這個花費\n減少了百分之十五到二十另外很重要的是每投資一英鎊可以回收三點五英鎊的對於整體不管是physical health或是mental health的健康回收好所以我們一定要持續的強化我後續會用一個比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論好您請回\n我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長有一些反饋當我在研究你們這個不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利然後受刑人的管理的這個級別的分類他累積分數我覺得住處就是說他的監所可以放放花草\n他可以學畫畫或是他可以擁有書籍或是他可以擁有家屬的照片或是他可以聽音樂這些東西請問你們現在的分級\n這些所謂的社會處方我剛剛對應於就是說去討養一個人在社會化他的心性可是在你們的不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同權利的分級裡頭反而對於很需要去再處遇再教化的人他是很難得到這些競變性耶對於音樂藝術書籍都很難對不對\n報告委員我們監所對於剛委員講的應該是一種植物療法也好藝術療法也好我們並不會限於說他一定要累進除疫比如二級才能參加那是額外你們辦的但是如果在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利\n他擁有一本書可以聽音樂這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性的都因為他的犯案的刑期不同他被剝奪了他同樣禁用藝術文化的權利\n我了解你們的管理需求對不起那個次長在皺眉頭沒關係我來把我的論述講一下首先我還是要先說空間跟人力是我們整個育政改革的核心我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革下一頁\n但是空間改革我要提醒你們就你們自己希望的是每個受刑人的這個享有的空間不小於一坪啦但是這是目標現行的法規是只有到0.7坪\n好這是法規面但是你們的這個矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規格希望能夠略大於一坪可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到OK不要讓它只是遙遠的理想如果哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到我們真的都不要放棄好我要再一次提醒好下一頁\n那空間之外就人力我這邊呈現出來的是我上一次質詢有提到的介護人員、教化人員、心社人員跟執訓人員的人力比而當中比較餘裕的是心社人員我上一次質詢有提出來來 下一頁好 這個是公共電視去年有一個節目他們是在探討其實連寓所的管理員他們的工作場域都非常的\n糟糕是不是寓所的管理員如同這個劇裡頭所呈現他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣是這樣嗎應該不是這樣包括他背景是休息的地方是有冷氣的包括我們有一些像豐原書斋它裡面也有冷氣包括煮咖啡那邊等於給他休閒用的地方會有但是如果是在工廠或是社房\n我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇電風扇那個是沒有冷氣那但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇所以說這個戲劇當中所呈現的預鎖管理員的這個心聲並不完全符合事實就對了因為如果說相關的活動在我們的教會堂也都會開冷氣嘛因為人那麼多你不開冷氣可能有人會暈倒\n那我希望真的是我多慮了這透過一個這個節目的呈現確實讓我們也關心起寓所管理員他本身的工作的環境跟狀態下業但事實上離退率是越來越高我們這個也不容否認不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都因為他的管教壓力大我們都高於世界各國這上週我們已經處理過了\n所以呢我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做處理那回到剛剛我要求教於次長喔累進制是我們現在做的但是不管司改會也好或你們今天自己的報告也好都說我們希望能夠跟進世界朝一個風險評估的膳食制去推進你剛剛也說\n傾向會把累進制這個處遇條例可能未來未來我不曉得是多久以後的未來來進行廢止可是這當中我非常同意剛剛我們這個昭偉他最後的一個結論其實隱藏在整個遇政的管理思維的背後他是一個國家治理官台灣持續的用管理的導向在面對我們的遇政可事實上如果多往人權的方向去\n貼近一點或者是教化的部分多貼近一點他會有完全不同的思維這就是我剛剛說的下一頁為什麼因為我看到你們不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利一級二級三級四級然後不同刑度的人要累積多少分才能夠享有他親近書籍親近聽音樂然後放家屬的照片我都覺得這個很不人性\n對於一個人來講我認為他的藝術的親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇協助他再社會化我認為他不應當因為他的行度而去剝奪了他這些權利可是你們現在矯正署說的國情不同所以呢超額收容然後這個受刑人跟教化人員人數懸殊比\n很懸殊 以至於我們這個實施風險評估的條件 畏懼我都理解這是現在的困境可是這是一個大災問 也是我要挑戰的為什麼他們對於清淨書籍 音樂因為它的積分很多人在 是沒有辦法享有這些權利的這跟積分有關嗎我不懂\n來沒關係也許我理解錯誤但是可以說明因為有一些細節譬如說它因為我們都有圖書室然後還有一些就是剛委員說的這些私人物品這些東西是不是真的跟那個累進有那麼深的直接執行關係可能我們會後我們再提供給委員實際執行狀況\n那我想這個因為剛剛我們今天在報告也有提到就是說這個新型累進處於條例目前我們修法的進度已經報送這個行政院剛剛才最近這幾天報送那他會搭配新的這個建議新法的修改然後這個所謂傳統的累進制\n這樣的一個制度會做大幅的調整但是也稱呼我剛剛非常正確的提出來就是說軟硬體的設施還有我們人力的這個不只是數量的問題還有這個專業這個可能管理的制度都要做調整那我們為了維持這個安全跟這個社會上的穩定所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝所以我們會在這個方向上\n逐步的來往這個所謂的善時制因為這其實都是ideal type它並不是說怎麼樣具體的條文是怎麼樣所以我們會往這個方向去做我們也當然希望推動更貼近人權然後更個別化主義的相關的這些做法那但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到這個新設人力我們也是在最近這幾年\n向人種來爭取那也是從這個醫師人員要改成這個約用 約固那我們會一步一步因為每一個階段都要被檢討這個成效是否有效益然後我們才能夠再往前進那當然還有硬體改善的部分我們也陸陸續續都排定了很多的計畫那因為真的很多的這個設防都是非常的老舊\n我們現在如果去做這些改善可能效果也有限我們會全力來推動逐年在國家財政允許的情況底下逐年來做改善好 時間到了也超過時間了我是真的很懇切的分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得\n導入了藝術文化也許從閱讀也許從音樂也許從觀賞當然在監獄裡頭他不太可能直接去觀賞這個所謂社會處方間去看去美術館去表演音樂聽可是透過給他們聆聽音樂跟閱讀書籍\n我認為這都是很小的成本只是從管理我確實知道你們管理層面你們都希望管理方便也擔心這當中會不會有危險的因子可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本和會達到一個教化的效果至少安定comfort這些受刑人的情緒這是非常重要這是小小的\n成本它會有你意想不到的效益不要單純從管理方面的思維去思考如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進儲育的積分我怎麼看對於獸型他可能型度高一點的人他連拿到一本書他要累積多少分啊他要累積三四百分以上\n這個執行的細節我們再跟我們報告好因為我非常想要一起去理解我希望我沒有理解錯誤我想講的你們都非常清楚有一些東西是小小的成本也許會有不同的效益包括我一直在催生的可以讓我們的貓狗的療癒的功能\n在比較世界各國的經驗你們現在開始做全訓班很好但是很多東西這都有醫學的實證好不好我們後續如果有機會只是比較可惜啊署長這段時間林旭秋波每天都質詢您但就這個部分我可以私下再跟您多一點討論就叫跟您請教好嗎\n我們對於讀書會我們都積極來推動包括說 不可能是說你要幾集才可以借書我們包括行動 行為 書車也都是鼓勵大家來借所以這個有幫助求情穩定所以這個部分我們都會那如果都有的話為什麼要有這些不同層級的這些\n住所可放花草書籍家屬照片規定的這麼嚴格你所說的是我有一個共同的機會你可以來讀書有一個共同的機會你可以來聽音樂那\n共同集會的機會有多少甚至也包括他們擁有收音機小型電視一般可以到九點他們都可以來聽的他們有適度的自由我們再討論但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單好不好沒關係我們繼續討論也辛苦了署長我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢您\n不可能啊好 沒關係 但是蘇哈就有一個學者專家的身份來跟您討論政策 謝謝也謝謝次長 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.694 --> 00:26.654\n好謝謝主席辛苦了然後請次長請黃次長還有署長哪一個周署長周署長我特別要請石崇良署長石署長衛福部市委員好\n\n00:28.476 --> 00:54.844\n好大家辛苦了真的很謝謝我們主席這段時間透過排鑽報告以及去現場的考察讓我們對於育政的改革有很多共同的共識但是它畢竟是一個漫長的道路那今天也是為了準備今天的質詢我才特別去了解了現行的我們累進儲育的相關的做法它真的很不人性那個石署長您在這裡\n\n00:56.865 --> 01:12.606\n社會處方籤這個從英國開始倡議的透過導入社會處方籤也是透過藝術透過運動或是透過接觸綠色植物乃至於透過閱讀它有非常多的方式讓\n\n01:14.700 --> 01:27.088\n長照也好或是心理健康衝擊他需要去緩解情緒的人乃至於到癒症的體系的使用世衛處方謙你們現在到底進展到哪裡了\n\n01:28.482 --> 01:46.858\n在台灣跟委員報告確實從越來越多的證據發現慢性病其實不是單純靠藥物它很多跟生活習慣相關所以近年來在各國都慢慢地在導入\n\n01:47.719 --> 02:04.008\n不論是在美國叫做生活型態醫學或者是在英國、加拿大稱為社會處方籤都是類似的除了藥物之外要把營養、運動、壓力的調節甚至社會的連結叫做socialconnection\n\n02:08.030 --> 02:24.859\n您說的比較偏向physicalhealth如果在mentalhealth我們對應於預症革新的這種在社會化的部分您要不要分享一下當然這個需要有資源的連結社會處方雖然是經過評估之後認為他應該\n\n02:29.702 --> 02:43.016\n病人的需要要朝哪個方向去做調整可是他需要有其他的資源這個不全是醫療資源沒錯他需要有視覺藝術博物館群的協力或者是表演藝術兩聽院音樂廳的協力\n\n02:46.520 --> 03:00.656\n好謝謝署長我還是期待因為我一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您今天藉這個機會從英國2019年全方位的他們去設立的這個社會處方國家研究院開始他們\n\n03:01.397 --> 03:05.740\n透過他們目標就是去年達標2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用了社會處房錢而且經過學術的這個檢視跟政策的檢視確實達到了他們對於門診量少了12%對於醫療的這個花費\n\n03:21.953 --> 03:40.107\n減少了百分之十五到二十另外很重要的是每投資一英鎊可以回收三點五英鎊的對於整體不管是physicalhealth或是mentalhealth的健康回收好所以我們一定要持續的強化我後續會用一個比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論好您請回\n\n03:42.403 --> 04:07.365\n我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長有一些反饋當我在研究你們這個不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利然後受刑人的管理的這個級別的分類他累積分數我覺得住處就是說他的監所可以放放花草\n\n04:08.396 --> 04:17.829\n他可以學畫畫或是他可以擁有書籍或是他可以擁有家屬的照片或是他可以聽音樂這些東西請問你們現在的分級\n\n04:23.796 --> 04:42.893\n這些所謂的社會處方我剛剛對應於就是說去討養一個人在社會化他的心性可是在你們的不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同權利的分級裡頭反而對於很需要去再處遇再教化的人他是很難得到這些競變性耶對於音樂藝術書籍都很難對不對\n\n04:46.753 --> 05:07.582\n報告委員我們監所對於剛委員講的應該是一種植物療法也好藝術療法也好我們並不會限於說他一定要累進除疫比如二級才能參加那是額外你們辦的但是如果在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利\n\n05:08.542 --> 05:25.240\n他擁有一本書可以聽音樂這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性的都因為他的犯案的刑期不同他被剝奪了他同樣禁用藝術文化的權利\n\n05:26.101 --> 05:42.949\n我了解你們的管理需求對不起那個次長在皺眉頭沒關係我來把我的論述講一下首先我還是要先說空間跟人力是我們整個育政改革的核心我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革下一頁\n\n05:43.689 --> 05:57.923\n但是空間改革我要提醒你們就你們自己希望的是每個受刑人的這個享有的空間不小於一坪啦但是這是目標現行的法規是只有到0.7坪\n\n05:59.324 --> 06:22.037\n好這是法規面但是你們的這個矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規格希望能夠略大於一坪可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到OK不要讓它只是遙遠的理想如果哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到我們真的都不要放棄好我要再一次提醒好下一頁\n\n06:23.379 --> 06:51.512\n那空間之外就人力我這邊呈現出來的是我上一次質詢有提到的介護人員、教化人員、心社人員跟執訓人員的人力比而當中比較餘裕的是心社人員我上一次質詢有提出來來下一頁好這個是公共電視去年有一個節目他們是在探討其實連寓所的管理員他們的工作場域都非常的\n\n06:52.492 --> 07:19.797\n糟糕是不是寓所的管理員如同這個劇裡頭所呈現他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣是這樣嗎應該不是這樣包括他背景是休息的地方是有冷氣的包括我們有一些像豐原書斋它裡面也有冷氣包括煮咖啡那邊等於給他休閒用的地方會有但是如果是在工廠或是社房\n\n07:20.777 --> 07:50.263\n我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇電風扇那個是沒有冷氣那但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇所以說這個戲劇當中所呈現的預鎖管理員的這個心聲並不完全符合事實就對了因為如果說相關的活動在我們的教會堂也都會開冷氣嘛因為人那麼多你不開冷氣可能有人會暈倒\n\n07:50.703 --> 08:17.964\n那我希望真的是我多慮了這透過一個這個節目的呈現確實讓我們也關心起寓所管理員他本身的工作的環境跟狀態下業但事實上離退率是越來越高我們這個也不容否認不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都因為他的管教壓力大我們都高於世界各國這上週我們已經處理過了\n\n08:19.105 --> 08:41.844\n所以呢我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做處理那回到剛剛我要求教於次長喔累進制是我們現在做的但是不管司改會也好或你們今天自己的報告也好都說我們希望能夠跟進世界朝一個風險評估的膳食制去推進你剛剛也說\n\n08:43.005 --> 09:09.135\n傾向會把累進制這個處遇條例可能未來未來我不曉得是多久以後的未來來進行廢止可是這當中我非常同意剛剛我們這個昭偉他最後的一個結論其實隱藏在整個遇政的管理思維的背後他是一個國家治理官台灣持續的用管理的導向在面對我們的遇政可事實上如果多往人權的方向去\n\n09:10.400 --> 09:38.081\n貼近一點或者是教化的部分多貼近一點他會有完全不同的思維這就是我剛剛說的下一頁為什麼因為我看到你們不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利一級二級三級四級然後不同刑度的人要累積多少分才能夠享有他親近書籍親近聽音樂然後放家屬的照片我都覺得這個很不人性\n\n09:39.611 --> 10:04.900\n對於一個人來講我認為他的藝術的親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇協助他再社會化我認為他不應當因為他的行度而去剝奪了他這些權利可是你們現在矯正署說的國情不同所以呢超額收容然後這個受刑人跟教化人員人數懸殊比\n\n10:06.001 --> 10:23.896\n很懸殊以至於我們這個實施風險評估的條件畏懼我都理解這是現在的困境可是這是一個大災問也是我要挑戰的為什麼他們對於清淨書籍音樂因為它的積分很多人在是沒有辦法享有這些權利的這跟積分有關嗎我不懂\n\n10:29.441 --> 10:47.710\n來沒關係也許我理解錯誤但是可以說明因為有一些細節譬如說它因為我們都有圖書室然後還有一些就是剛委員說的這些私人物品這些東西是不是真的跟那個累進有那麼深的直接執行關係可能我們會後我們再提供給委員實際執行狀況\n\n10:49.591 --> 11:07.728\n那我想這個因為剛剛我們今天在報告也有提到就是說這個新型累進處於條例目前我們修法的進度已經報送這個行政院剛剛才最近這幾天報送那他會搭配新的這個建議新法的修改然後這個所謂傳統的累進制\n\n11:11.511 --> 11:37.464\n這樣的一個制度會做大幅的調整但是也稱呼我剛剛非常正確的提出來就是說軟硬體的設施還有我們人力的這個不只是數量的問題還有這個專業這個可能管理的制度都要做調整那我們為了維持這個安全跟這個社會上的穩定所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝所以我們會在這個方向上\n\n11:38.204 --> 12:00.129\n逐步的來往這個所謂的善時制因為這其實都是idealtype它並不是說怎麼樣具體的條文是怎麼樣所以我們會往這個方向去做我們也當然希望推動更貼近人權然後更個別化主義的相關的這些做法那但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到這個新設人力我們也是在最近這幾年\n\n12:01.329 --> 12:23.786\n向人種來爭取那也是從這個醫師人員要改成這個約用約固那我們會一步一步因為每一個階段都要被檢討這個成效是否有效益然後我們才能夠再往前進那當然還有硬體改善的部分我們也陸陸續續都排定了很多的計畫那因為真的很多的這個設防都是非常的老舊\n\n12:25.127 --> 12:42.975\n我們現在如果去做這些改善可能效果也有限我們會全力來推動逐年在國家財政允許的情況底下逐年來做改善好時間到了也超過時間了我是真的很懇切的分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得\n\n12:43.975 --> 12:57.301\n導入了藝術文化也許從閱讀也許從音樂也許從觀賞當然在監獄裡頭他不太可能直接去觀賞這個所謂社會處方間去看去美術館去表演音樂聽可是透過給他們聆聽音樂跟閱讀書籍\n\n13:02.703 --> 13:24.164\n我認為這都是很小的成本只是從管理我確實知道你們管理層面你們都希望管理方便也擔心這當中會不會有危險的因子可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本和會達到一個教化的效果至少安定comfort這些受刑人的情緒這是非常重要這是小小的\n\n13:25.583 --> 13:46.217\n成本它會有你意想不到的效益不要單純從管理方面的思維去思考如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進儲育的積分我怎麼看對於獸型他可能型度高一點的人他連拿到一本書他要累積多少分啊他要累積三四百分以上\n\n13:51.264 --> 14:08.662\n這個執行的細節我們再跟我們報告好因為我非常想要一起去理解我希望我沒有理解錯誤我想講的你們都非常清楚有一些東西是小小的成本也許會有不同的效益包括我一直在催生的可以讓我們的貓狗的療癒的功能\n\n14:09.122 --> 14:24.055\n在比較世界各國的經驗你們現在開始做全訓班很好但是很多東西這都有醫學的實證好不好我們後續如果有機會只是比較可惜啊署長這段時間林旭秋波每天都質詢您但就這個部分我可以私下再跟您多一點討論就叫跟您請教好嗎\n\n14:28.699 --> 14:52.274\n我們對於讀書會我們都積極來推動包括說不可能是說你要幾集才可以借書我們包括行動行為書車也都是鼓勵大家來借所以這個有幫助求情穩定所以這個部分我們都會那如果都有的話為什麼要有這些不同層級的這些\n\n14:54.316 --> 15:05.151\n住所可放花草書籍家屬照片規定的這麼嚴格你所說的是我有一個共同的機會你可以來讀書有一個共同的機會你可以來聽音樂那\n\n15:06.912 --> 15:29.487\n共同集會的機會有多少甚至也包括他們擁有收音機小型電視一般可以到九點他們都可以來聽的他們有適度的自由我們再討論但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單好不好沒關係我們繼續討論也辛苦了署長我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢您\n\n15:31.588 --> 15:37.016\n不可能啊好沒關係但是蘇哈就有一個學者專家的身份來跟您討論政策謝謝也謝謝次長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.694,"end":26.654,"text":"好謝謝主席辛苦了然後請次長請黃次長還有署長哪一個周署長周署長我特別要請石崇良署長石署長衛福部市委員好"},{"start":28.476,"end":54.844,"text":"好 大家辛苦了真的很謝謝我們主席這段時間透過排鑽報告以及去現場的考察讓我們對於育政的改革有很多共同的共識但是它畢竟是一個漫長的道路那今天也是為了準備今天的質詢我才特別去了解了現行的我們累進儲育的相關的做法它真的很不人性那個石署長您在這裡"},{"start":56.865,"end":72.606,"text":"社會處方籤這個從英國開始倡議的透過導入社會處方籤也是透過藝術透過運動或是透過接觸綠色植物乃至於透過閱讀它有非常多的方式讓"},{"start":74.7,"end":87.088,"text":"長照也好或是心理健康衝擊他需要去緩解情緒的人乃至於到癒症的體系的使用世衛處方謙你們現在到底進展到哪裡了"},{"start":88.482,"end":106.858,"text":"在台灣跟委員報告確實從越來越多的證據發現慢性病其實不是單純靠藥物它很多跟生活習慣相關所以近年來在各國都慢慢地在導入"},{"start":107.719,"end":124.008,"text":"不論是在美國叫做生活型態醫學或者是在英國、加拿大稱為社會處方籤都是類似的除了藥物之外要把營養、運動、壓力的調節甚至社會的連結叫做social connection"},{"start":128.03,"end":144.859,"text":"您說的比較偏向physical health如果在mental health我們對應於預症革新的這種在社會化的部分您要不要分享一下當然這個需要有資源的連結社會處方雖然是經過評估之後認為他應該"},{"start":149.702,"end":163.016,"text":"病人的需要 要朝哪個方向去做調整可是他需要有其他的資源這個不全是醫療資源沒錯 他需要有視覺藝術博物館群的協力或者是表演藝術 兩聽院 音樂廳的協力"},{"start":166.52,"end":180.656,"text":"好 謝謝署長我還是期待因為我一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您今天藉這個機會從英國2019年全方位的他們去設立的這個社會處方國家研究院開始他們"},{"start":181.397,"end":185.74,"text":"透過他們目標就是去年達標2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用了社會處房錢而且經過學術的這個檢視跟政策的檢視確實達到了他們對於門診量少了12%對於醫療的這個花費"},{"start":201.953,"end":220.107,"text":"減少了百分之十五到二十另外很重要的是每投資一英鎊可以回收三點五英鎊的對於整體不管是physical health或是mental health的健康回收好所以我們一定要持續的強化我後續會用一個比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論好您請回"},{"start":222.403,"end":247.365,"text":"我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長有一些反饋當我在研究你們這個不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利然後受刑人的管理的這個級別的分類他累積分數我覺得住處就是說他的監所可以放放花草"},{"start":248.396,"end":257.829,"text":"他可以學畫畫或是他可以擁有書籍或是他可以擁有家屬的照片或是他可以聽音樂這些東西請問你們現在的分級"},{"start":263.796,"end":282.893,"text":"這些所謂的社會處方我剛剛對應於就是說去討養一個人在社會化他的心性可是在你們的不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同權利的分級裡頭反而對於很需要去再處遇再教化的人他是很難得到這些競變性耶對於音樂藝術書籍都很難對不對"},{"start":286.753,"end":307.582,"text":"報告委員我們監所對於剛委員講的應該是一種植物療法也好藝術療法也好我們並不會限於說他一定要累進除疫比如二級才能參加那是額外你們辦的但是如果在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利"},{"start":308.542,"end":325.24,"text":"他擁有一本書可以聽音樂這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性的都因為他的犯案的刑期不同他被剝奪了他同樣禁用藝術文化的權利"},{"start":326.101,"end":342.949,"text":"我了解你們的管理需求對不起那個次長在皺眉頭沒關係我來把我的論述講一下首先我還是要先說空間跟人力是我們整個育政改革的核心我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革下一頁"},{"start":343.689,"end":357.923,"text":"但是空間改革我要提醒你們就你們自己希望的是每個受刑人的這個享有的空間不小於一坪啦但是這是目標現行的法規是只有到0.7坪"},{"start":359.324,"end":382.037,"text":"好這是法規面但是你們的這個矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規格希望能夠略大於一坪可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到OK不要讓它只是遙遠的理想如果哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到我們真的都不要放棄好我要再一次提醒好下一頁"},{"start":383.379,"end":411.512,"text":"那空間之外就人力我這邊呈現出來的是我上一次質詢有提到的介護人員、教化人員、心社人員跟執訓人員的人力比而當中比較餘裕的是心社人員我上一次質詢有提出來來 下一頁好 這個是公共電視去年有一個節目他們是在探討其實連寓所的管理員他們的工作場域都非常的"},{"start":412.492,"end":439.797,"text":"糟糕是不是寓所的管理員如同這個劇裡頭所呈現他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣是這樣嗎應該不是這樣包括他背景是休息的地方是有冷氣的包括我們有一些像豐原書斋它裡面也有冷氣包括煮咖啡那邊等於給他休閒用的地方會有但是如果是在工廠或是社房"},{"start":440.777,"end":470.263,"text":"我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇電風扇那個是沒有冷氣那但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇所以說這個戲劇當中所呈現的預鎖管理員的這個心聲並不完全符合事實就對了因為如果說相關的活動在我們的教會堂也都會開冷氣嘛因為人那麼多你不開冷氣可能有人會暈倒"},{"start":470.703,"end":497.964,"text":"那我希望真的是我多慮了這透過一個這個節目的呈現確實讓我們也關心起寓所管理員他本身的工作的環境跟狀態下業但事實上離退率是越來越高我們這個也不容否認不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都因為他的管教壓力大我們都高於世界各國這上週我們已經處理過了"},{"start":499.105,"end":521.844,"text":"所以呢我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做處理那回到剛剛我要求教於次長喔累進制是我們現在做的但是不管司改會也好或你們今天自己的報告也好都說我們希望能夠跟進世界朝一個風險評估的膳食制去推進你剛剛也說"},{"start":523.005,"end":549.135,"text":"傾向會把累進制這個處遇條例可能未來未來我不曉得是多久以後的未來來進行廢止可是這當中我非常同意剛剛我們這個昭偉他最後的一個結論其實隱藏在整個遇政的管理思維的背後他是一個國家治理官台灣持續的用管理的導向在面對我們的遇政可事實上如果多往人權的方向去"},{"start":550.4,"end":578.081,"text":"貼近一點或者是教化的部分多貼近一點他會有完全不同的思維這就是我剛剛說的下一頁為什麼因為我看到你們不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利一級二級三級四級然後不同刑度的人要累積多少分才能夠享有他親近書籍親近聽音樂然後放家屬的照片我都覺得這個很不人性"},{"start":579.611,"end":604.9,"text":"對於一個人來講我認為他的藝術的親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇協助他再社會化我認為他不應當因為他的行度而去剝奪了他這些權利可是你們現在矯正署說的國情不同所以呢超額收容然後這個受刑人跟教化人員人數懸殊比"},{"start":606.001,"end":623.896,"text":"很懸殊 以至於我們這個實施風險評估的條件 畏懼我都理解這是現在的困境可是這是一個大災問 也是我要挑戰的為什麼他們對於清淨書籍 音樂因為它的積分很多人在 是沒有辦法享有這些權利的這跟積分有關嗎我不懂"},{"start":629.441,"end":647.71,"text":"來沒關係也許我理解錯誤但是可以說明因為有一些細節譬如說它因為我們都有圖書室然後還有一些就是剛委員說的這些私人物品這些東西是不是真的跟那個累進有那麼深的直接執行關係可能我們會後我們再提供給委員實際執行狀況"},{"start":649.591,"end":667.728,"text":"那我想這個因為剛剛我們今天在報告也有提到就是說這個新型累進處於條例目前我們修法的進度已經報送這個行政院剛剛才最近這幾天報送那他會搭配新的這個建議新法的修改然後這個所謂傳統的累進制"},{"start":671.511,"end":697.464,"text":"這樣的一個制度會做大幅的調整但是也稱呼我剛剛非常正確的提出來就是說軟硬體的設施還有我們人力的這個不只是數量的問題還有這個專業這個可能管理的制度都要做調整那我們為了維持這個安全跟這個社會上的穩定所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝所以我們會在這個方向上"},{"start":698.204,"end":720.129,"text":"逐步的來往這個所謂的善時制因為這其實都是ideal type它並不是說怎麼樣具體的條文是怎麼樣所以我們會往這個方向去做我們也當然希望推動更貼近人權然後更個別化主義的相關的這些做法那但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到這個新設人力我們也是在最近這幾年"},{"start":721.329,"end":743.786,"text":"向人種來爭取那也是從這個醫師人員要改成這個約用 約固那我們會一步一步因為每一個階段都要被檢討這個成效是否有效益然後我們才能夠再往前進那當然還有硬體改善的部分我們也陸陸續續都排定了很多的計畫那因為真的很多的這個設防都是非常的老舊"},{"start":745.127,"end":762.975,"text":"我們現在如果去做這些改善可能效果也有限我們會全力來推動逐年在國家財政允許的情況底下逐年來做改善好 時間到了也超過時間了我是真的很懇切的分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得"},{"start":763.975,"end":777.301,"text":"導入了藝術文化也許從閱讀也許從音樂也許從觀賞當然在監獄裡頭他不太可能直接去觀賞這個所謂社會處方間去看去美術館去表演音樂聽可是透過給他們聆聽音樂跟閱讀書籍"},{"start":782.703,"end":804.164,"text":"我認為這都是很小的成本只是從管理我確實知道你們管理層面你們都希望管理方便也擔心這當中會不會有危險的因子可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本和會達到一個教化的效果至少安定comfort這些受刑人的情緒這是非常重要這是小小的"},{"start":805.583,"end":826.217,"text":"成本它會有你意想不到的效益不要單純從管理方面的思維去思考如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進儲育的積分我怎麼看對於獸型他可能型度高一點的人他連拿到一本書他要累積多少分啊他要累積三四百分以上"},{"start":831.264,"end":848.662,"text":"這個執行的細節我們再跟我們報告好因為我非常想要一起去理解我希望我沒有理解錯誤我想講的你們都非常清楚有一些東西是小小的成本也許會有不同的效益包括我一直在催生的可以讓我們的貓狗的療癒的功能"},{"start":849.122,"end":864.055,"text":"在比較世界各國的經驗你們現在開始做全訓班很好但是很多東西這都有醫學的實證好不好我們後續如果有機會只是比較可惜啊署長這段時間林旭秋波每天都質詢您但就這個部分我可以私下再跟您多一點討論就叫跟您請教好嗎"},{"start":868.699,"end":892.274,"text":"我們對於讀書會我們都積極來推動包括說 不可能是說你要幾集才可以借書我們包括行動 行為 書車也都是鼓勵大家來借所以這個有幫助求情穩定所以這個部分我們都會那如果都有的話為什麼要有這些不同層級的這些"},{"start":894.316,"end":905.151,"text":"住所可放花草書籍家屬照片規定的這麼嚴格你所說的是我有一個共同的機會你可以來讀書有一個共同的機會你可以來聽音樂那"},{"start":906.912,"end":929.487,"text":"共同集會的機會有多少甚至也包括他們擁有收音機小型電視一般可以到九點他們都可以來聽的他們有適度的自由我們再討論但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單好不好沒關係我們繼續討論也辛苦了署長我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢您"},{"start":931.588,"end":937.016,"text":"不可能啊好 沒關係 但是蘇哈就有一個學者專家的身份來跟您討論政策 謝謝也謝謝次長 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":715,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時1分）好，謝謝主席，辛苦了！請次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["吳委員思瑤：還有署長。"],["主席：哪一個署長？"],["吳委員思瑤：周署長。"],["主席：請周署長。"],["吳委員思瑤：我要特別請衛福部的石崇良署長。"],["主席：請石署長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["周署長輝煌：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，大家辛苦了！真的很謝謝主席這段時間透過排專案報告以及去現場考察讓我們對於獄政的改革有很多共同的共識，但是它畢竟是一條漫長的道路。我也是為了準備今天的質詢才特別去了解我們現行累進處遇的相關作法，它真的很不人性。石署長，您在這裡，社會處方箋是英國開始倡議的，透過導入社會處方箋，也就是透過藝術、透過運動，或是透過接觸綠色植物，乃至於透過閱讀，它有非常多的方式，像長照也好，或是心理健康受到衝擊而需要去緩解情緒的人，乃至於獄政體系都在使用，在臺灣你們現在的社會處方箋到底進展到哪裡了？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，確實從越來越多的證據發現慢性病其實不是單純只靠藥物，有很多是跟生活習慣相關，所以近年來各國都慢慢地在導入，在美國是生活型態醫學（life style medicine），在英國、加拿大是稱為社會處方箋，這些都是類似的，除了藥物之外，對於營養、運動、壓力的調節，甚至社會的連結（social connection），都要把它……"],["吳委員思瑤：你說的比較偏向physical health，如果是mental health這方面，我們對應於獄政革新這種再社會化的部分，你要不要分享一下？"],["石署長崇良：當然這個需要有資源的連結，社會處方雖然是在經過評估之後認為這個病人有什麼需要而朝哪個方向去做調整，可是它還需要其他的資源，這個不全是醫療資源。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒錯，它需要有視覺藝術、博物館群的協力，或者是表演藝術、兩廳院、音樂廳的協力。"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝署長，我還是期待，因為我已經有一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您，所以今天藉這個機會提出來。英國從2019年全方位的設立社會處方國家研究院開始，他們的目標在去年達標，就是2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用社會處方箋，而且經過學術的檢視跟政策的檢視，確實達到讓他們的門診量少了12%，對於醫療的花費減少了15%到20%。另外，很重要的是每投資1英鎊可以有3.5英鎊對於整體不管是physical health或是mental health的健康回收，所以我們一定要持續的強化，我後續會比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論，好，您請回。"],["石署長崇良：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長一些反饋，我研究了你們的制度，就是不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利，還有受刑人管理級別的分類，他要累積分數，我覺得在他的住處也就是監所可以放放花草，讓他可以學畫畫，或是他可以擁有書籍、或是他可以擁有家屬的照片、或是他可以聽音樂，像這些東西，你們現在有分級，這些所謂的社會處方，對應於我剛剛說的，要去陶養一個人的心性，讓他再社會化，可是你們讓不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同的權利，反而造成很需要再處遇、再教化的人很難得到這些近便性，對於音樂、藝術、書籍都很難，對不對？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們監所對於剛剛委員講的，像一種植物療法也好、藝術療法也好，我們並不會限於他一定要累進處遇比如二級才能參加，我們反而是……"],["吳委員思瑤：那是你們額外辦的，但是如果是在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利，他擁有一本書，可以聽音樂，這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性，都因為他犯案的刑期不同，他被剝奪了他同樣近用藝術文化的權利。我了解你們的管理需求，對不起，次長在皺眉頭，沒關係，我來把我的論述講一下。首先，我還是要先說，空間跟人力是我們整個獄政改革的核心，我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革，但是關於空間改革，我要提醒你們，你們自己希望的是每個受刑人享有的空間不小於1坪，但是這是目標，依現行的法規是只有0.7坪，這是法規面，但是你們矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規則是希望能夠略大於1坪，可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到，OK，不要讓它只是遙遠的理想，如果有哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到，我們真的都不要放棄，我要再次提醒你們。","請看下一頁，在空間之外就是人力，我在這邊呈現出來的就是我上一次質詢提到的戒護人員、教化人員、心社人員跟職訓人員的人力比，而當中比較餘裕的是心社人員，我在上一次質詢時有提出來。下一頁，這是公共電視在去年的一個節目，就是在探討其實連獄所管理員的工作場域都非常糟糕，獄所的管理員是不是如同這個劇裡頭所呈現的，他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣，是這樣嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：應該不是這樣，他們的備勤室、休息的地方是有冷氣的，包括我們有一些地方，像風簷書齋裡面也有冷氣，包括煮咖啡的地方，在讓他們休閒用的地方會有，但是如果是在工廠或是舍房，我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇、電風扇，在那些地方沒有冷氣，但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以在這個戲劇當中所呈現獄所管理員的心聲並不完全符合事實就對了？"],["周署長輝煌：如果是舉辦相關的活動，在我們的教誨堂也都會開冷氣，因為人那麼多，你不開冷氣，可能有人會暈倒。"],["吳委員思瑤：我希望真的是我多慮了，透過這個節目的呈現，確實讓我們也關心起獄所管理員本身工作的環境跟狀態。下一頁，但事實上他們的離退率越來越高，這個也不容否認，因為管教的壓力大，我們不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都高於世界各國，這個在上週我們已經處理過了，所以我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做處理。下一頁，回到剛剛的問題，我要就教於次長，累進制是我們現在做的，但是不管司改會也好，或你們今天自己的報告也好，都說我們希望能夠跟進世界，朝一個風險評估的善時制去推進，你剛剛也說傾向可能在未來廢止這個行刑累進處遇條例，你說未來，我不曉得是多久以後的未來。可是這當中，我非常同意剛剛我們召委的最後一個結論，其實隱藏在整個獄政管理思維背後是一個國家治理官，臺灣持續地用管理導向在面對我們的獄政。可是事實上，如果多往人權的方向去貼近一點，或者是教化的部分多貼近一點，它會有完全不同的思維。這就是我剛剛說的，因為我看到不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利，一級、二級、三級、四級，不同刑度的要累積多少分，才可以能夠享有親近書籍、聽音樂或放家屬的照片，我都覺得這個很不人性。對於一個人來講，我認為他的藝術親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇，協助他再社會化，我認為不應當因為他的刑度而去剝奪了這些權利，可是現在矯正署說國情不同、超額收容，還有受刑人和教化人員人數比很懸殊，以致於實施風險評估的條件未具。我都理解這是現在的困境，可是這是一個大哉問，也是我要挑戰的，為什麼他們對於親近書籍、音樂，會因為積分讓很多人沒有辦法享有這些權利？我不懂，也許是我理解錯誤，但是次長可以說明。"],["黃次長世杰：因為執行上有一些細節，我們都有圖書室，還有剛剛委員說的這些私人物品，這些東西是不是真的跟累進有那麼深的直接執行關係，可能我們會後再提供給委員實際執行狀況。因為我們今天的報告也有提到，關於行刑累進處遇條例，目前我們修法的進度是已經報送行政院，最近這幾天才報送，它會搭配新的監獄行刑法的修改，所謂傳統的累進制這樣的制度會做大幅的調整，但是也誠如委員剛剛非常正確的提出來，就是軟硬體設施，還有我們的人力，不只是數量的問題，還有專業管理制度可能都要做調整。我們為了維持安全及社會穩定，所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝，所以我們會在這個方向上逐步地往所謂的善時制，因為這其實都是ideal type，並不是具體的條文是怎麼樣，所以我們會往這個方向去做，我們當然也希望推動更貼近人權，更個別化處遇的這些相關作法。但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到的心社人力，我們也是在最近這幾年向人總爭取，也是從……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，是唯一超標、達標的。"],["黃次長世杰：從臨時人員改成約用、約僱，我們會一步一步，因為每一個階段都要被檢討成效是否有效益，我們才能夠再往前進，還有硬體改善的部分，我們也陸陸續續排定了很多計畫。因為很多舍房真的都是非常老舊，我們現在如果去做一些改善，可能效果也有限，不過我們會全力來推動，在國家財政允許的情況底下，逐年來做改善，以上，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，時間到了，也超過時間了。我是真的很懇切地分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得，導入藝術文化也許從閱讀、也許從音樂、也許從觀賞，當然在監獄裡頭不太可能直接去觀賞，所謂的社會處方箋，或是去美術館、去表演音樂廳，可是可以透過給他們聆聽音樂和閱讀書籍，我認為這都是很小的成本。我確實知道你們管理層面都希望管理方便，也擔心這當中會不會有危險因子，可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本，也會達到教化的效果，至少可以安定、comfort這些受刑人的情緒，這是非常重要、這是小小的成本，但是它會有你意想不到的效益，所以不要單純從管理方便的思維去思考。如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進處遇積分，對於可能刑度高一點的受刑人，他連拿到一本書要累積多少分？他要累積三、四百分以上，我不知道，還是我解讀錯誤？"],["黃次長世杰：這個執行的細節，我們再跟委員報告。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，因為我非常想要一起去理解，我希望我沒有理解錯誤，我想講的你們都非常清楚，有一些東西是小小的成本，也許會有不同的效益，包括我一直在催生的，可以讓貓狗的療癒功能，比較世界各國經驗，你們現在開始做犬訓班，很好，但是還有很多東西，這都有醫學的實證，好不好？我們後續如果有機會，只是比較可惜的是署長這段時間臨去秋波，每天都質詢你，但就這個部分，我可以私下再跟你多一點討論，跟你就教、請教，好嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：簡要地跟委員報告，我們對於讀書會會積極來推動，不可能是你要幾級才可以借書，我們的行動巡迴書車也都是鼓勵大家來借，這個有幫助囚情穩定，所以這個部分我們都會……"],["吳委員思瑤：那如果都有的話，為什麼要有這些不同層級的規定，例如住所可放花草、書籍、家屬照片，為什麼要規定的這麼嚴格？你所說的是我有一個共同的集會，你可以來讀書；有一個共同的集會，你可以來聽音樂，共同集會的機會有多少？"],["周署長輝煌：甚至於包括他們擁有收音機也好、小型電視也好，一般可以到9點，他們都可以來聽的，他們有適度的自由。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們再討論，但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單，好不好？沒關係！我們繼續討論，也辛苦了，署長，我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢你。"],["主席：不可能。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係！我們私下就一個學者專家的身分來跟你討論政策，謝謝，也謝謝次長。"],["周署長輝煌：不敢當。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。你剛才說的三個月不可能，人家剩三個禮拜就要退休了。","其實這個是一個大問題，關於受刑人，我們一般在講都說除了應報以外，要給他矯正，在整個服刑期間要讓他的情緒穩定，比較有名的講法是讓他保有基本人權，是因為他要復歸到這個社會，復歸到這個社會是為了整體社會的絕大多數人，融合是好事，這是為了全體，所以這個是大哉問，很有名的問題，討論多久要看你站在什麼樣的角度。我們現在先休息5分鐘以後再接續詢答。","休息（11時17分）","繼續開會（11時25分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來我們要請最美麗的翁曉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}}