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337.617, \"end\": 362.391, \"text\": \"去做第二次的連署民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署那這當然是沒有構成偽造文書但是如果有坊間現在一直在傳的是說罷免團體他們為了要拼送件的那個門檻件數那個日期快到了先讓他件數過關過關以後拿到補件期的10天他們再趕快再繼續拼連署\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 337.617, \"end\": 337.777, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 337.777, \"end\": 338.037, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 338.037, \"end\": 338.157, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 338.157, \"end\": 338.377, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 338.377, \"end\": 338.518, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 338.518, \"end\": 338.918, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 338.918, \"end\": 339.538, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 339.538, \"end\": 339.938, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 339.938, \"end\": 340.078, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 340.078, \"end\": 340.319, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 340.319, \"end\": 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\"這部分要麻煩你們給我最後不好意思再給我一點點時間就是那個比例 人數比例的問題就是借戶人數比例的問題因為上個禮拜那個矯正署有來一邊有談一些那個借戶人數的那個比例然後我再回去找了一些資料我發現我們台灣的那個借戶比其實比鄰近的國家有的超到兩倍以上\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 796.051, \"end\": 796.171, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 796.171, \"end\": 796.351, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 796.351, \"end\": 796.511, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 796.511, \"end\": 796.852, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 796.852, \"end\": 796.912, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 796.912, \"end\": 797.712, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 797.712, \"end\": 797.832, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 797.832, \"end\": 797.992, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 797.992, \"end\": 798.032, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 798.032, \"end\": 798.153, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 798.153, 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{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1019.051, \"end\": 1019.071, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1019.071, \"end\": 1019.152, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 1019.152, \"end\": 1019.172, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,622 --> 00:00:21,373\n請黃次長我想先延續一下王宏威委員的問題因為上一次王玉川委員告發黃國昌偽造文書那當時我也是請法務部要嚴辦黃國昌委員那北檢也馬上就分案調查了\n\n2\n00:00:22,193 --> 00:00:39,489\n我想說法務部這個部分可能也是要督導一下地檢署這個分案的部分就一定要分案那另外我也是建議啦為了避免掉一些紛爭喔盡量這種案件不要用只分的方式盡量用輪分的方式處理好嗎\n\n3\n00:00:40,450 --> 00:01:00,187\n其實過往這些辦的這些案子啊那我一直沒有講一些我自己的對外的一些心裡的話因為他其實承辦的檢察官他以前在群組裡面常常做一些政治的發言以及他們的政治傾向我們也都很了解但是因為我尊重檢方的辦案\n\n4\n00:01:00,988 --> 00:01:15,810\n所以次長可以知道我從之前到現在我一直沒有去論述這件事情因為我都是尊重每一位檢察官他各自的政治傾向那我們也期待說檢察官在辦案的時候不要把自己的政治傾向放到\n\n5\n00:01:16,471 --> 00:01:32,318\n公務裡面我們自己以前也是這樣一路過來的我們有自己的政治傾向但我們在辦案的時候就是秉公處理就像那個陳瑞仁大學長一樣他就說他是深綠的他的他政治傾向是深綠但是他在辦案的時候他的\n\n6\n00:01:33,158 --> 00:02:01,004\n這個政治傾向他只有在投票的那個帷幕的欄裡面他只要出了投票的時候他在公務上面的處理一定是秉公處理所以我不會去批評說那些檢察官他們平常在群組裡面是發言那種論述但是至少我們希望說辦案能夠持平的辦案那可以的話盡量不要用指分的方式用輪分的方式所以跟我們報告就是我們的立場基本的態度都是跟我們類似的就是說\n\n7\n00:02:01,964 --> 00:02:16,122\n我們會尊重地檢署他的作業那我們會尊重甲官辦案的權限沒有我這公開呼籲啦我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式只是說有時候是這樣你越介入越多越容易讓人家想\n\n8\n00:02:17,123 --> 00:02:41,510\n想很多嘛那最好的方式一切依法最好是電腦輪分啊電腦輪分大家比較沒有意見那第二個我想請教一下次長因為次長也是那個學有專精的法律人次長是非常那個專業於法律上那我想請教一個問題因為大家一直在講說這個二階二階連署的時候有非常多人跟一階是重複的\n\n9\n00:02:42,506 --> 00:03:08,316\n那依照規定這一二階他不能是同仁嘛那當然啦那個中選會他是說這個是依法剔除所以他們不告發那我在這邊請教我這邊先說明一個啦如果因為民眾不了解我國的法治規定而去重複就一階以及二階他重複去連署那當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊那我想請教一下次長\n\n10\n00:03:09,176 --> 00:03:26,481\n這樣如果說今天有罷免團體他為了拼最後送件的期限因為連署的人數還不到門檻件數不到門檻他為了衝最後的期限可以送件然後去騙取中選會的十天的補件期間\n\n11\n00:03:28,061 --> 00:03:46,286\n因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去那請問一下這個有沒有構成偽造文書法律論述法律論述因為這個都很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案所以我想對於假設性的事實問題對於假設性事實問題我們不會去做這個有意見的說明\n\n12\n00:03:51,787 --> 00:04:20,304\n那我想是否構成違照文書我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢管他們對個案的反對來啦次長又回到個案了啦那次長講一個我剛剛講很簡單嘛如果今天連署團體他簽了別人的名字進去連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候講得很大聲啊還說是我想法務部從來沒有針對我們任何一個個案去對這件事情做出不管是\n\n13\n00:04:21,304 --> 00:04:50,624\n個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷啦我們不是在考試啦市長我本來蠻尊重您對法律的理解如果市長連這個事我到時候說講不出口好吧那正次就是正次的樣子嘛謝謝市長不好意思啦因為我們是法務部啦我們是做法務行政所以我剛一直說所以我沒有講個案我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛我只是請教市長這個是一個法律的通案嘛這是一個法律的通案\n\n14\n00:04:52,204 --> 00:05:15,911\n那如果今天不要講說跟連署有關啦那我問你嘛A沒有同意他的名字去做連署那B把A的名字抄去做連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書委員您說的這個就是在考試嘛我一直講法律論述啊那我想這個委員也是學有專精啦刑法上當然這個構不構成你也很清楚嘛\n\n15\n00:05:18,152 --> 00:05:35,957\n那我跟次長報告次長竟然還是不願意回答我跟次長報告以我對於法律的理解那中選會主委他說的是廢話中選會主委說這個部分二接有重複連署的部分不告發但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自\n\n16\n00:05:37,617 --> 00:06:02,391\n去做第二次的連署民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署那這當然是沒有構成偽造文書但是如果有坊間現在一直在傳的是說罷免團體他們為了要拼送件的那個門檻件數那個日期快到了先讓他件數過關過關以後拿到補件期的10天他們再趕快再繼續拼連署\n\n17\n00:06:03,752 --> 00:06:15,366\n因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話這個構成偽造文書麻煩次長你不敢回答我就算了沒關係啦我跟你講啦反正現在很多\n\n18\n00:06:18,735 --> 00:06:36,534\n很多側翼的律師他們有很特殊的法律見解我都尊重好那我這邊講目前我對法律的理解就是這樣而且我為我我一直以來我的個性就是這樣我為我說過的每一句話負責那如果有這個狀況其實就應該要查緝啦那\n\n19\n00:06:36,994 --> 00:06:59,167\n如果是一二階連署單上面肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣其實啊中選會不應該一句話說我不予告發我認為這是一個不負責任中選而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會公務機關應該要依法行政那如果是這種態度的話我實在是不認為這是一個\n\n20\n00:07:02,068 --> 00:07:30,105\n議法行政的行政機關不過我對於李紀勇主委的評價一路以來我沒有變過我對他的評價就是那樣子他真的是貴黨有非常多傑出的人才也有很多至少是還算公正的人才那今天會去請一個非常不公正的去擔任一個獨立機關的主委我也是覺得就是我們還是都希望國家好\n\n21\n00:07:30,947 --> 00:07:31,089\n阿娜\n\n22\n00:07:32,113 --> 00:08:00,841\n後面我請教一下那個次長回到今天的議題啦因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答那個那個黃宏威委員我想請那個次長我們前兩個禮拜不是有去那個那個那個城鎮中學嗎對不對次長也有去嘛那城鎮中學當時有說他有很多問題就是譬如說空間以及人力等等那請問一下部長次長您知不知道到底問題出在哪那\n\n23\n00:08:01,843 --> 00:08:30,618\n上次去完到現在部裡面有做任何的改革嗎請次長回答一下那個城鎮中學他主要提出是他的空間改善因為他們的這個空間很老舊而且過去的規劃跟現在不一樣那他們現在已經啟動了部分其實在那邊我們去看的時候都有圍起來所以他現在已經有做一部分的改善那後續我們他有跟矯正署報相關的後續的計畫那矯正署也都會做那另外有提出來的部分就是Lady有老師\n\n24\n00:08:31,738 --> 00:08:59,416\n他有提出來一些就是關於這個輔導的空間因為那個很多的這個說的這些學生他們可能需要個別的心理的輔導那尤其是在女生的部分不是女生啦那個有一些部分會有隱私隔離的問題等等的那這個部分呢我也請他們提出具體的方案那我們會請教練署就經費部分大家予以協助這樣好吧\n\n25\n00:09:01,017 --> 00:09:20,480\n這樣也沒有講得很具體啦但是我想說齁因為時間也蠻短的那當天大家也吃了那個現場小朋友做的麵包我們不能白吃嘛白吃他的麵包所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的問題包括一些空間啦還有一些那個收容學生暴增那我請教一下次長一個問題喔\n\n26\n00:09:22,161 --> 00:09:48,090\n那個陳振中學他2024年初到現在他突然暴增了112個收容的學生那等於是多了七成耶但是我國的這個青少年的犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊市長有沒有發現或有沒有去研究到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加但是他跟我們的青少年的犯罪率兩個搭不上啊\n\n27\n00:09:49,330 --> 00:10:16,255\n這個陳振中學師辦這個感化教育所以他的學生的來源是少年法庭的法官裁定那他就會進來這樣子所以這個可能跟這個法院的裁法官的這個裁定的這個方向所調整有關係也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年的這個事件那可能使得法官認為說要增加利用這個感化教育這個工具來協助輔導這些那這是次長\n\n28\n00:10:16,815 --> 00:10:31,342\n那個研判可能性那這個可不可以一個月內給我們回覆一下報告請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增但是他跟我們的那個青少年犯罪率其實是搭不上的還有一個原因出在哪裡還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯這個陳少共犯\n\n29\n00:10:32,282 --> 00:10:48,369\n突然增加很多有關係這個問題我請他們去做具體的聯繫這個問題不是2024年出到現在你說的這個問題是已經好多年了不是只有去年到現在還突然暴增的新的犯罪類型所以要麻煩一下那我想說這個報告裡面\n\n30\n00:10:50,030 --> 00:11:06,818\n幫我們稍微也要加入就是這個正直跟戴克老師的比例還有那個失之流動也就是不穩定的原因也幫我們研究一下那然後還有就是因為我們知道小朋友在那邊其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛\n\n31\n00:11:07,478 --> 00:11:36,838\n所以這個部份是不是你們有跟教育部衛福部或是勞動部這些合作單位是怎麼個合作也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下這個跟我們報告好你這一天那天的簡報事實上他的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入所以我請那個陳鎮忠學再把數字那也麻煩市長因為市長我們要求大家行政機關做出我的辦公室的習慣每一份報告來我們都會都會深入去研究我們不是說隨便談一個你報告給我們我們就不管了我們每一個報告都\n\n32\n00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:52,800\n都會深入去研究所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告那另外還有一個就是說當天城鎮中學的校長簡報他有提到110年到112年的轉學學生的比例從70到61到48等於是一直在遞減\n\n33\n00:11:53,962 --> 00:12:20,413\n所以有過半的學生離開之後並沒有轉嫌上學校去啊那我想次長你知道應該知道轉嫌的重要性嗎這個有一些問題是說因為他們其實很多出校的時候他可能已經成年了或是職業之類的其他問題但是因為我剛剛跟委員報告說這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致所以我會請城鎮中學把正確的數字跟剛剛委員隨詢的原因\n\n34\n00:12:21,573 --> 00:12:45,992\n再用書面來回覆您說的部分人是成年沒有錯但是有一些也是會成年那是不是說我們可以把他轉去一些即職學校等等的讓他能夠更好的回歸社會有人不愛念書我們可以理解但是我們國家有非常多的即職學校是不是能夠好好的去盯一下他們有沒有轉弦到想念書的我們轉弦回學校不想念書的轉弦去即職學校嘛\n\n35\n00:12:46,272 --> 00:13:12,749\n就對國家才有幫助我想當然我們都是去即時學校啦所以說如果他有意願的話我們一定都會來處理那你們一定要盯喔因為我跟你講那個兒少學級轉型還有復學辦法第七條五七八這三條其實有提到就是說法務部他在離開矯正學校前的一個月內他本來就要召開這個輔導會議然後他到學校去之後的一個月內他也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議所以你們一定會有這個數據\n\n36\n00:13:16,051 --> 00:13:37,265\n這部分要麻煩你們給我最後不好意思再給我一點點時間就是那個比例人數比例的問題就是借戶人數比例的問題因為上個禮拜那個矯正署有來一邊有談一些那個借戶人數的那個比例然後我再回去找了一些資料我發現我們台灣的那個借戶比其實比鄰近的國家有的超到兩倍以上\n\n37\n00:13:38,206 --> 00:14:00,299\n那當然我知道現在找這個介乎人力本來也不容易啦公務員現在越來越沒有人想要當更何況說這個要住在裡面然後有時候在裡面手機也因為那個屏蔽所以手機也收不到跟家人會斷連續有些人不喜歡這樣的工作或家人不允許這樣的工作這我們可以理解但是這會是一個大問題然後我又看到高雄女監\n\n38\n00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:21,559\n他晚上管理人18人然後除了輪班跟睡覺之外一個人要管300多個收容人所以裡面有一點點小事情那就會出大事了更何況去年6月的時候那不是曾經發生過就是因為女監不能好好洗澡啊所以他們當時有集體抗議嘛\n\n39\n00:14:22,439 --> 00:14:29,402\n還有噴辣椒水才把那個壓制下來所以這會是一個問題我們以前當警察官的時候會去視察監獄我們發現一個狀況現在監獄裡面受刑的年紀有很多年紀都很大了\n\n40\n00:14:38,286 --> 00:14:55,350\n那因為大家的平均餘命越來越長嘛所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病精神疾病等等的這些問題都是現在監所要面臨的那如果我們的接戶比喲越來越少那這個是會將來這個監所可能發生問題的狀況會變多我不知道副理有沒有發現這個狀況\n\n41\n00:15:00,726 --> 00:15:25,411\n跟委員報告委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題因為有一些精神疾病的大概就是他會跟人家產生衝突一直送違規射所以當然我們有培德院區說那個精神分裂症但是他要比較嚴重的才收那因此我們我上任之後我就要擴通他的量能\n\n42\n00:15:25,951 --> 00:15:51,547\n因此我們藉由行後性侵的這個大渡山莊已經移出去了所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病患者的讓他的床位更多一點現在我們也增加不少的床位將來會紓解一些反社會人格也好或是尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人常常跟人家打架的這一些我們會收治\n\n43\n00:15:53,348 --> 00:16:15,286\n其實我在這段時間我發現署長非常的認真而且非常在預政改革上用很多心但是因為署長下個月要農退那我也很擔心說那這個改革或者是這個對收工人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果回歸社會會不會對國家有正向的影響我也會擔心有沒有辦法先接上去啊\n\n44\n00:16:15,626 --> 00:16:33,980\n各位報告我想我們部長他會慎重選擇比如說在中央機關有歷練而且是在現職的八大的所謂的典獄長他有那個經驗的我們這個心火相傳可以繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題那這樣我想\n\n45\n00:16:34,921 --> 00:16:55,828\n那個我希望這個部裡面就是能夠也再給我一份數據的報告就是剛剛提到的那個轉嫌這個減少的那個報告一定要給我給我一份還有講如果有問題的話怎麼改善還有這個配套措施怎麼做以及這個借戶比再麻煩給我們一份好那最後那個謝謝署長署長為國家奉獻一輩子\n\n46\n00:16:58,089 --> 00:16:59,172\n非常敬佩署長署長退休愉快謝謝吳宗憲委員這個改革都還沒有起\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1622\t21373\t請黃次長我想先延續一下王宏威委員的問題因為上一次王玉川委員告發黃國昌偽造文書那當時我也是請法務部要嚴辦黃國昌委員那北檢也馬上就分案調查了\n22193\t39489\t我想說法務部這個部分可能也是要督導一下地檢署這個分案的部分就一定要分案那另外我也是建議啦為了避免掉一些紛爭喔盡量這種案件不要用只分的方式盡量用輪分的方式處理好嗎\n40450\t60187\t其實過往這些辦的這些案子啊那我一直沒有講一些我自己的對外的一些心裡的話因為他其實承辦的檢察官他以前在群組裡面常常做一些政治的發言以及他們的政治傾向我們也都很了解但是因為我尊重檢方的辦案\n60988\t75810\t所以次長可以知道我從之前到現在我一直沒有去論述這件事情因為我都是尊重每一位檢察官他各自的政治傾向那我們也期待說檢察官在辦案的時候不要把自己的政治傾向放到\n76471\t92318\t公務裡面我們自己以前也是這樣一路過來的我們有自己的政治傾向但我們在辦案的時候就是秉公處理就像那個陳瑞仁大學長一樣他就說他是深綠的他的他政治傾向是深綠但是他在辦案的時候他的\n93158\t121004\t這個政治傾向他只有在投票的那個帷幕的欄裡面他只要出了投票的時候他在公務上面的處理一定是秉公處理所以我不會去批評說那些檢察官他們平常在群組裡面是發言那種論述但是至少我們希望說辦案能夠持平的辦案那可以的話盡量不要用指分的方式用輪分的方式所以跟我們報告就是我們的立場基本的態度都是跟我們類似的就是說\n121964\t136122\t我們會尊重地檢署他的作業那我們會尊重甲官辦案的權限沒有 我這公開呼籲啦我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式只是說有時候是這樣你越介入越多 越容易讓人家想\n137123\t161510\t想很多嘛那最好的方式一切依法最好是電腦輪分啊電腦輪分大家比較沒有意見那第二個我想請教一下次長因為次長也是那個學有專精的法律人次長是非常那個專業於法律上那我想請教一個問題因為大家一直在講說這個二階二階連署的時候有非常多人跟一階是重複的\n162506\t188316\t那依照規定這一二階他不能是同仁嘛那當然啦那個中選會他是說這個是依法剔除所以他們不告發那我在這邊請教我這邊先說明一個啦如果因為民眾不了解我國的法治規定而去重複就一階以及二階他重複去連署那當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊那我想請教一下次長\n189176\t206481\t這樣如果說今天有罷免團體 他為了拼最後送件的期限因為連署的人數還不到門檻 件數不到門檻他為了衝最後的期限可以送件 然後去騙取中選會的十天的補件期間\n208061\t226286\t因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去那請問一下這個有沒有構成偽造文書法律論述 法律論述因為這個都很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案所以我想對於假設性的事實問題對於假設性事實問題我們不會去做這個有意見的說明\n231787\t260304\t那我想是否構成違照文書我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢管他們對個案的反對來啦 次長又回到個案了啦那次長講一個我剛剛講很簡單嘛如果今天連署團體他簽了別人的名字進去連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候講得很大聲啊還說是我想法務部從來沒有針對我們任何一個個案去對這件事情做出不管是\n261304\t290624\t個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷啦我們不是在考試啦市長我本來蠻尊重您對法律的理解如果市長連這個事我到時候說講不出口好吧那正次就是正次的樣子嘛謝謝市長不好意思啦因為我們是法務部啦我們是做法務行政所以我剛一直說所以我沒有講個案我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛我只是請教市長這個是一個法律的通案嘛這是一個法律的通案\n292204\t315911\t那如果今天不要講說跟連署有關啦那我問你嘛A沒有同意他的名字去做連署那B把A的名字抄去做連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書委員您說的這個就是在考試嘛我一直講法律論述啊那我想這個委員也是學有專精啦刑法上當然這個構不構成你也很清楚嘛\n318152\t335957\t那我跟次長報告次長竟然還是不願意回答我跟次長報告以我對於法律的理解那中選會主委他說的是廢話中選會主委說這個部分二接有重複連署的部分不告發但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自\n337617\t362391\t去做第二次的連署民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署那這當然是沒有構成偽造文書但是如果有坊間現在一直在傳的是說罷免團體他們為了要拼送件的那個門檻件數那個日期快到了先讓他件數過關過關以後拿到補件期的10天他們再趕快再繼續拼連署\n363752\t375366\t因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話這個構成偽造文書麻煩次長你不敢回答我就算了沒關係啦我跟你講啦反正現在很多\n378735\t396534\t很多側翼的律師他們有很特殊的法律見解我都尊重好那我這邊講目前我對法律的理解就是這樣而且我為我我一直以來我的個性就是這樣我為我說過的每一句話負責那如果有這個狀況其實就應該要查緝啦那\n396994\t419167\t如果是一二階連署單上面 肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣其實啊 中選會不應該一句話說 我不予告發我認為這是一個不負責任中選 而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會公務機關應該要依法行政 那如果是這種態度的話我實在是不認為這是一個\n422068\t450105\t議法行政的行政機關不過我對於李紀勇主委的評價一路以來我沒有變過我對他的評價就是那樣子他真的是貴黨有非常多傑出的人才也有很多至少是還算公正的人才那今天會去請一個非常不公正的去擔任一個獨立機關的主委我也是覺得就是我們還是都希望國家好\n450947\t451089\t阿娜\n452113\t480841\t後面我請教一下那個次長回到今天的議題啦因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答那個那個黃宏威委員我想請那個次長我們前兩個禮拜不是有去那個那個那個城鎮中學嗎對不對次長也有去嘛那城鎮中學當時有說他有很多問題就是譬如說空間以及人力等等那請問一下部長次長您知不知道到底問題出在哪那\n481843\t510618\t上次去完到現在 部裡面有做任何的改革嗎請次長回答一下那個城鎮中學他主要提出是他的空間改善因為他們的這個空間很老舊而且過去的規劃跟現在不一樣那他們現在已經啟動了部分其實在那邊我們去看的時候都有圍起來所以他現在已經有做一部分的改善那後續我們他有跟矯正署報相關的後續的計畫那矯正署也都會做那另外有提出來的部分就是Lady有老師\n511738\t539416\t他有提出來一些就是關於這個輔導的空間因為那個很多的這個說的這些學生他們可能需要個別的心理的輔導那尤其是在女生的部分不是女生啦那個有一些部分會有隱私隔離的問題等等的那這個部分呢我也請他們提出具體的方案那我們會請教練署就經費部分大家予以協助這樣好吧\n541017\t560480\t這樣也沒有講得很具體啦 但是我想說齁 因為時間也蠻短的那當天大家也吃了那個現場小朋友做的麵包我們不能白吃嘛 白吃他的麵包所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的問題 包括一些空間啦還有一些那個收容學生暴增那我請教一下次長一個問題喔\n562161\t588090\t那個陳振中學他2024年初到現在他突然暴增了112個收容的學生那等於是多了七成耶但是我國的這個青少年的犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊市長有沒有發現或有沒有去研究到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加但是他跟我們的青少年的犯罪率兩個搭不上啊\n589330\t616255\t這個陳振中學師辦這個感化教育所以他的學生的來源是少年法庭的法官裁定那他就會進來這樣子所以這個可能跟這個法院的裁法官的這個裁定的這個方向所調整有關係也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年的這個事件那可能使得法官認為說要增加利用這個感化教育這個工具來協助輔導這些那這是次長\n616815\t631342\t那個研判可能性那這個可不可以一個月內給我們回覆一下報告請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增但是他跟我們的那個青少年犯罪率其實是搭不上的還有一個原因出在哪裡還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯這個陳少共犯\n632282\t648369\t突然增加很多有關係這個問題我請他們去做具體的聯繫這個問題不是2024年出到現在你說的這個問題是已經好多年了不是只有去年到現在還突然暴增的新的犯罪類型所以要麻煩一下那我想說這個報告裡面\n650030\t666818\t幫我們稍微也要加入就是這個正直跟戴克老師的比例還有那個失之流動也就是不穩定的原因也幫我們研究一下那然後還有就是因為我們知道小朋友在那邊其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛\n667478\t696838\t所以這個部份是不是你們有跟教育部衛福部或是勞動部這些合作單位是怎麼個合作也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下這個跟我們報告好你這一天那天的簡報事實上他的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入所以我請那個陳鎮忠學再把數字那也麻煩市長因為市長我們要求大家行政機關做出我的辦公室的習慣每一份報告來我們都會都會深入去研究我們不是說隨便談一個你報告給我們我們就不管了我們每一個報告都\n697639\t712800\t都會深入去研究所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告那另外還有一個就是說當天城鎮中學的校長簡報他有提到110年到112年的轉學學生的比例從70到61到48等於是一直在遞減\n713962\t740413\t所以有過半的學生離開之後並沒有轉嫌上學校去啊那我想 次長你知道應該知道轉嫌的重要性嗎這個有一些問題是說因為他們其實很多出校的時候他可能已經成年了或是職業之類的其他問題但是因為我剛剛跟委員報告說這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致所以我會請城鎮中學把正確的數字跟剛剛委員隨詢的原因\n741573\t765992\t再用書面來回覆您說的部分人是成年沒有錯但是有一些也是會成年那是不是說我們可以把他轉去一些即職學校等等的讓他能夠更好的回歸社會有人不愛念書我們可以理解但是我們國家有非常多的即職學校是不是能夠好好的去盯一下他們有沒有轉弦到想念書的我們轉弦回學校不想念書的轉弦去即職學校嘛\n766272\t792749\t就對國家才有幫助我想當然我們都是去即時學校啦所以說如果他有意願的話我們一定都會來處理那你們一定要盯喔因為我跟你講那個兒少學級轉型還有復學辦法第七條 五 七 八這三條其實有提到就是說法務部他在離開矯正學校前的一個月內他本來就要召開這個輔導會議然後他到學校去之後的一個月內他也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議所以你們一定會有這個數據\n796051\t817265\t這部分要麻煩你們給我最後不好意思再給我一點點時間就是那個比例 人數比例的問題就是借戶人數比例的問題因為上個禮拜那個矯正署有來一邊有談一些那個借戶人數的那個比例然後我再回去找了一些資料我發現我們台灣的那個借戶比其實比鄰近的國家有的超到兩倍以上\n818206\t840299\t那當然我知道現在找這個介乎人力本來也不容易啦公務員現在越來越沒有人想要當更何況說這個要住在裡面然後有時候在裡面手機也因為那個屏蔽所以手機也收不到跟家人會斷連續有些人不喜歡這樣的工作或家人不允許這樣的工作這我們可以理解但是這會是一個大問題然後我又看到高雄女監\n841400\t861559\t他晚上管理人18人然後除了輪班跟睡覺之外一個人要管300多個收容人所以裡面有一點點小事情那就會出大事了更何況去年6月的時候那不是曾經發生過就是因為女監不能好好洗澡啊所以他們當時有集體抗議嘛\n862439\t869402\t還有噴辣椒水才把那個壓制下來所以這會是一個問題我們以前當警察官的時候會去視察監獄我們發現一個狀況現在監獄裡面受刑的年紀有很多年紀都很大了\n878286\t895350\t那因為大家的平均餘命越來越長嘛所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病精神疾病等等的這些問題都是現在監所要面臨的那如果我們的接戶比喲越來越少那這個是會將來這個監所可能發生問題的狀況會變多我不知道副理有沒有發現這個狀況\n900726\t925411\t跟委員報告 委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題因為有一些精神疾病的大概就是他會跟人家產生衝突 一直送違規射所以當然我們有培德院區說那個精神分裂症但是他要比較嚴重的才收那因此我們 我上任之後我就要擴通他的量能\n925951\t951547\t因此我們藉由行後性侵的這個大渡山莊已經移出去了所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病患者的讓他的床位更多一點現在我們也增加不少的床位將來會紓解一些反社會人格也好或是尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人常常跟人家打架的這一些我們會收治\n953348\t975286\t其實我在這段時間我發現署長非常的認真而且非常在預政改革上用很多心但是因為署長下個月要農退那我也很擔心說那這個改革或者是這個對收工人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果回歸社會會不會對國家有正向的影響我也會擔心有沒有辦法先接上去啊\n975626\t993980\t各位報告我想我們部長他會慎重選擇比如說在中央機關有歷練而且是在現職的八大的所謂的典獄長他有那個經驗的我們這個心火相傳可以繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題那這樣我想\n994921\t1015828\t那個我希望這個部裡面就是能夠也再給我一份數據的報告就是剛剛提到的那個轉嫌這個減少的那個報告一定要給我給我一份還有講如果有問題的話怎麼改善還有這個配套措施怎麼做以及這個借戶比再麻煩給我們一份好那最後那個謝謝署長署長為國家奉獻一輩子\n1018089\t1019172\t非常敬佩署長 署長退休愉快謝謝吳宗憲委員 這個改革都還沒有起\n","txt":"請黃次長我想先延續一下王宏威委員的問題因為上一次王玉川委員告發黃國昌偽造文書那當時我也是請法務部要嚴辦黃國昌委員那北檢也馬上就分案調查了\n我想說法務部這個部分可能也是要督導一下地檢署這個分案的部分就一定要分案那另外我也是建議啦為了避免掉一些紛爭喔盡量這種案件不要用只分的方式盡量用輪分的方式處理好嗎\n其實過往這些辦的這些案子啊那我一直沒有講一些我自己的對外的一些心裡的話因為他其實承辦的檢察官他以前在群組裡面常常做一些政治的發言以及他們的政治傾向我們也都很了解但是因為我尊重檢方的辦案\n所以次長可以知道我從之前到現在我一直沒有去論述這件事情因為我都是尊重每一位檢察官他各自的政治傾向那我們也期待說檢察官在辦案的時候不要把自己的政治傾向放到\n公務裡面我們自己以前也是這樣一路過來的我們有自己的政治傾向但我們在辦案的時候就是秉公處理就像那個陳瑞仁大學長一樣他就說他是深綠的他的他政治傾向是深綠但是他在辦案的時候他的\n這個政治傾向他只有在投票的那個帷幕的欄裡面他只要出了投票的時候他在公務上面的處理一定是秉公處理所以我不會去批評說那些檢察官他們平常在群組裡面是發言那種論述但是至少我們希望說辦案能夠持平的辦案那可以的話盡量不要用指分的方式用輪分的方式所以跟我們報告就是我們的立場基本的態度都是跟我們類似的就是說\n我們會尊重地檢署他的作業那我們會尊重甲官辦案的權限沒有 我這公開呼籲啦我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式只是說有時候是這樣你越介入越多 越容易讓人家想\n想很多嘛那最好的方式一切依法最好是電腦輪分啊電腦輪分大家比較沒有意見那第二個我想請教一下次長因為次長也是那個學有專精的法律人次長是非常那個專業於法律上那我想請教一個問題因為大家一直在講說這個二階二階連署的時候有非常多人跟一階是重複的\n那依照規定這一二階他不能是同仁嘛那當然啦那個中選會他是說這個是依法剔除所以他們不告發那我在這邊請教我這邊先說明一個啦如果因為民眾不了解我國的法治規定而去重複就一階以及二階他重複去連署那當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊那我想請教一下次長\n這樣如果說今天有罷免團體 他為了拼最後送件的期限因為連署的人數還不到門檻 件數不到門檻他為了衝最後的期限可以送件 然後去騙取中選會的十天的補件期間\n因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去那請問一下這個有沒有構成偽造文書法律論述 法律論述因為這個都很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案所以我想對於假設性的事實問題對於假設性事實問題我們不會去做這個有意見的說明\n那我想是否構成違照文書我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢管他們對個案的反對來啦 次長又回到個案了啦那次長講一個我剛剛講很簡單嘛如果今天連署團體他簽了別人的名字進去連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候講得很大聲啊還說是我想法務部從來沒有針對我們任何一個個案去對這件事情做出不管是\n個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷啦我們不是在考試啦市長我本來蠻尊重您對法律的理解如果市長連這個事我到時候說講不出口好吧那正次就是正次的樣子嘛謝謝市長不好意思啦因為我們是法務部啦我們是做法務行政所以我剛一直說所以我沒有講個案我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛我只是請教市長這個是一個法律的通案嘛這是一個法律的通案\n那如果今天不要講說跟連署有關啦那我問你嘛A沒有同意他的名字去做連署那B把A的名字抄去做連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書委員您說的這個就是在考試嘛我一直講法律論述啊那我想這個委員也是學有專精啦刑法上當然這個構不構成你也很清楚嘛\n那我跟次長報告次長竟然還是不願意回答我跟次長報告以我對於法律的理解那中選會主委他說的是廢話中選會主委說這個部分二接有重複連署的部分不告發但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自\n去做第二次的連署民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署那這當然是沒有構成偽造文書但是如果有坊間現在一直在傳的是說罷免團體他們為了要拼送件的那個門檻件數那個日期快到了先讓他件數過關過關以後拿到補件期的10天他們再趕快再繼續拼連署\n因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話這個構成偽造文書麻煩次長你不敢回答我就算了沒關係啦我跟你講啦反正現在很多\n很多側翼的律師他們有很特殊的法律見解我都尊重好那我這邊講目前我對法律的理解就是這樣而且我為我我一直以來我的個性就是這樣我為我說過的每一句話負責那如果有這個狀況其實就應該要查緝啦那\n如果是一二階連署單上面 肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣其實啊 中選會不應該一句話說 我不予告發我認為這是一個不負責任中選 而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會公務機關應該要依法行政 那如果是這種態度的話我實在是不認為這是一個\n議法行政的行政機關不過我對於李紀勇主委的評價一路以來我沒有變過我對他的評價就是那樣子他真的是貴黨有非常多傑出的人才也有很多至少是還算公正的人才那今天會去請一個非常不公正的去擔任一個獨立機關的主委我也是覺得就是我們還是都希望國家好\n阿娜\n後面我請教一下那個次長回到今天的議題啦因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答那個那個黃宏威委員我想請那個次長我們前兩個禮拜不是有去那個那個那個城鎮中學嗎對不對次長也有去嘛那城鎮中學當時有說他有很多問題就是譬如說空間以及人力等等那請問一下部長次長您知不知道到底問題出在哪那\n上次去完到現在 部裡面有做任何的改革嗎請次長回答一下那個城鎮中學他主要提出是他的空間改善因為他們的這個空間很老舊而且過去的規劃跟現在不一樣那他們現在已經啟動了部分其實在那邊我們去看的時候都有圍起來所以他現在已經有做一部分的改善那後續我們他有跟矯正署報相關的後續的計畫那矯正署也都會做那另外有提出來的部分就是Lady有老師\n他有提出來一些就是關於這個輔導的空間因為那個很多的這個說的這些學生他們可能需要個別的心理的輔導那尤其是在女生的部分不是女生啦那個有一些部分會有隱私隔離的問題等等的那這個部分呢我也請他們提出具體的方案那我們會請教練署就經費部分大家予以協助這樣好吧\n這樣也沒有講得很具體啦 但是我想說齁 因為時間也蠻短的那當天大家也吃了那個現場小朋友做的麵包我們不能白吃嘛 白吃他的麵包所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的問題 包括一些空間啦還有一些那個收容學生暴增那我請教一下次長一個問題喔\n那個陳振中學他2024年初到現在他突然暴增了112個收容的學生那等於是多了七成耶但是我國的這個青少年的犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊市長有沒有發現或有沒有去研究到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加但是他跟我們的青少年的犯罪率兩個搭不上啊\n這個陳振中學師辦這個感化教育所以他的學生的來源是少年法庭的法官裁定那他就會進來這樣子所以這個可能跟這個法院的裁法官的這個裁定的這個方向所調整有關係也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年的這個事件那可能使得法官認為說要增加利用這個感化教育這個工具來協助輔導這些那這是次長\n那個研判可能性那這個可不可以一個月內給我們回覆一下報告請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增但是他跟我們的那個青少年犯罪率其實是搭不上的還有一個原因出在哪裡還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯這個陳少共犯\n突然增加很多有關係這個問題我請他們去做具體的聯繫這個問題不是2024年出到現在你說的這個問題是已經好多年了不是只有去年到現在還突然暴增的新的犯罪類型所以要麻煩一下那我想說這個報告裡面\n幫我們稍微也要加入就是這個正直跟戴克老師的比例還有那個失之流動也就是不穩定的原因也幫我們研究一下那然後還有就是因為我們知道小朋友在那邊其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛\n所以這個部份是不是你們有跟教育部衛福部或是勞動部這些合作單位是怎麼個合作也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下這個跟我們報告好你這一天那天的簡報事實上他的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入所以我請那個陳鎮忠學再把數字那也麻煩市長因為市長我們要求大家行政機關做出我的辦公室的習慣每一份報告來我們都會都會深入去研究我們不是說隨便談一個你報告給我們我們就不管了我們每一個報告都\n都會深入去研究所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告那另外還有一個就是說當天城鎮中學的校長簡報他有提到110年到112年的轉學學生的比例從70到61到48等於是一直在遞減\n所以有過半的學生離開之後並沒有轉嫌上學校去啊那我想 次長你知道應該知道轉嫌的重要性嗎這個有一些問題是說因為他們其實很多出校的時候他可能已經成年了或是職業之類的其他問題但是因為我剛剛跟委員報告說這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致所以我會請城鎮中學把正確的數字跟剛剛委員隨詢的原因\n再用書面來回覆您說的部分人是成年沒有錯但是有一些也是會成年那是不是說我們可以把他轉去一些即職學校等等的讓他能夠更好的回歸社會有人不愛念書我們可以理解但是我們國家有非常多的即職學校是不是能夠好好的去盯一下他們有沒有轉弦到想念書的我們轉弦回學校不想念書的轉弦去即職學校嘛\n就對國家才有幫助我想當然我們都是去即時學校啦所以說如果他有意願的話我們一定都會來處理那你們一定要盯喔因為我跟你講那個兒少學級轉型還有復學辦法第七條 五 七 八這三條其實有提到就是說法務部他在離開矯正學校前的一個月內他本來就要召開這個輔導會議然後他到學校去之後的一個月內他也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議所以你們一定會有這個數據\n這部分要麻煩你們給我最後不好意思再給我一點點時間就是那個比例 人數比例的問題就是借戶人數比例的問題因為上個禮拜那個矯正署有來一邊有談一些那個借戶人數的那個比例然後我再回去找了一些資料我發現我們台灣的那個借戶比其實比鄰近的國家有的超到兩倍以上\n那當然我知道現在找這個介乎人力本來也不容易啦公務員現在越來越沒有人想要當更何況說這個要住在裡面然後有時候在裡面手機也因為那個屏蔽所以手機也收不到跟家人會斷連續有些人不喜歡這樣的工作或家人不允許這樣的工作這我們可以理解但是這會是一個大問題然後我又看到高雄女監\n他晚上管理人18人然後除了輪班跟睡覺之外一個人要管300多個收容人所以裡面有一點點小事情那就會出大事了更何況去年6月的時候那不是曾經發生過就是因為女監不能好好洗澡啊所以他們當時有集體抗議嘛\n還有噴辣椒水才把那個壓制下來所以這會是一個問題我們以前當警察官的時候會去視察監獄我們發現一個狀況現在監獄裡面受刑的年紀有很多年紀都很大了\n那因為大家的平均餘命越來越長嘛所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病精神疾病等等的這些問題都是現在監所要面臨的那如果我們的接戶比喲越來越少那這個是會將來這個監所可能發生問題的狀況會變多我不知道副理有沒有發現這個狀況\n跟委員報告 委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題因為有一些精神疾病的大概就是他會跟人家產生衝突 一直送違規射所以當然我們有培德院區說那個精神分裂症但是他要比較嚴重的才收那因此我們 我上任之後我就要擴通他的量能\n因此我們藉由行後性侵的這個大渡山莊已經移出去了所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病患者的讓他的床位更多一點現在我們也增加不少的床位將來會紓解一些反社會人格也好或是尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人常常跟人家打架的這一些我們會收治\n其實我在這段時間我發現署長非常的認真而且非常在預政改革上用很多心但是因為署長下個月要農退那我也很擔心說那這個改革或者是這個對收工人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果回歸社會會不會對國家有正向的影響我也會擔心有沒有辦法先接上去啊\n各位報告我想我們部長他會慎重選擇比如說在中央機關有歷練而且是在現職的八大的所謂的典獄長他有那個經驗的我們這個心火相傳可以繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題那這樣我想\n那個我希望這個部裡面就是能夠也再給我一份數據的報告就是剛剛提到的那個轉嫌這個減少的那個報告一定要給我給我一份還有講如果有問題的話怎麼改善還有這個配套措施怎麼做以及這個借戶比再麻煩給我們一份好那最後那個謝謝署長署長為國家奉獻一輩子\n非常敬佩署長 署長退休愉快謝謝吳宗憲委員 這個改革都還沒有起\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.622 --> 00:21.373\n請黃次長我想先延續一下王宏威委員的問題因為上一次王玉川委員告發黃國昌偽造文書那當時我也是請法務部要嚴辦黃國昌委員那北檢也馬上就分案調查了\n\n00:22.193 --> 00:39.489\n我想說法務部這個部分可能也是要督導一下地檢署這個分案的部分就一定要分案那另外我也是建議啦為了避免掉一些紛爭喔盡量這種案件不要用只分的方式盡量用輪分的方式處理好嗎\n\n00:40.450 --> 01:00.187\n其實過往這些辦的這些案子啊那我一直沒有講一些我自己的對外的一些心裡的話因為他其實承辦的檢察官他以前在群組裡面常常做一些政治的發言以及他們的政治傾向我們也都很了解但是因為我尊重檢方的辦案\n\n01:00.988 --> 01:15.810\n所以次長可以知道我從之前到現在我一直沒有去論述這件事情因為我都是尊重每一位檢察官他各自的政治傾向那我們也期待說檢察官在辦案的時候不要把自己的政治傾向放到\n\n01:16.471 --> 01:32.318\n公務裡面我們自己以前也是這樣一路過來的我們有自己的政治傾向但我們在辦案的時候就是秉公處理就像那個陳瑞仁大學長一樣他就說他是深綠的他的他政治傾向是深綠但是他在辦案的時候他的\n\n01:33.158 --> 02:01.004\n這個政治傾向他只有在投票的那個帷幕的欄裡面他只要出了投票的時候他在公務上面的處理一定是秉公處理所以我不會去批評說那些檢察官他們平常在群組裡面是發言那種論述但是至少我們希望說辦案能夠持平的辦案那可以的話盡量不要用指分的方式用輪分的方式所以跟我們報告就是我們的立場基本的態度都是跟我們類似的就是說\n\n02:01.964 --> 02:16.122\n我們會尊重地檢署他的作業那我們會尊重甲官辦案的權限沒有我這公開呼籲啦我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式只是說有時候是這樣你越介入越多越容易讓人家想\n\n02:17.123 --> 02:41.510\n想很多嘛那最好的方式一切依法最好是電腦輪分啊電腦輪分大家比較沒有意見那第二個我想請教一下次長因為次長也是那個學有專精的法律人次長是非常那個專業於法律上那我想請教一個問題因為大家一直在講說這個二階二階連署的時候有非常多人跟一階是重複的\n\n02:42.506 --> 03:08.316\n那依照規定這一二階他不能是同仁嘛那當然啦那個中選會他是說這個是依法剔除所以他們不告發那我在這邊請教我這邊先說明一個啦如果因為民眾不了解我國的法治規定而去重複就一階以及二階他重複去連署那當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊那我想請教一下次長\n\n03:09.176 --> 03:26.481\n這樣如果說今天有罷免團體他為了拼最後送件的期限因為連署的人數還不到門檻件數不到門檻他為了衝最後的期限可以送件然後去騙取中選會的十天的補件期間\n\n03:28.061 --> 03:46.286\n因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去那請問一下這個有沒有構成偽造文書法律論述法律論述因為這個都很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案所以我想對於假設性的事實問題對於假設性事實問題我們不會去做這個有意見的說明\n\n03:51.787 --> 04:20.304\n那我想是否構成違照文書我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢管他們對個案的反對來啦次長又回到個案了啦那次長講一個我剛剛講很簡單嘛如果今天連署團體他簽了別人的名字進去連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候講得很大聲啊還說是我想法務部從來沒有針對我們任何一個個案去對這件事情做出不管是\n\n04:21.304 --> 04:50.624\n個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷啦我們不是在考試啦市長我本來蠻尊重您對法律的理解如果市長連這個事我到時候說講不出口好吧那正次就是正次的樣子嘛謝謝市長不好意思啦因為我們是法務部啦我們是做法務行政所以我剛一直說所以我沒有講個案我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛我只是請教市長這個是一個法律的通案嘛這是一個法律的通案\n\n04:52.204 --> 05:15.911\n那如果今天不要講說跟連署有關啦那我問你嘛A沒有同意他的名字去做連署那B把A的名字抄去做連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書委員您說的這個就是在考試嘛我一直講法律論述啊那我想這個委員也是學有專精啦刑法上當然這個構不構成你也很清楚嘛\n\n05:18.152 --> 05:35.957\n那我跟次長報告次長竟然還是不願意回答我跟次長報告以我對於法律的理解那中選會主委他說的是廢話中選會主委說這個部分二接有重複連署的部分不告發但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自\n\n05:37.617 --> 06:02.391\n去做第二次的連署民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署那這當然是沒有構成偽造文書但是如果有坊間現在一直在傳的是說罷免團體他們為了要拼送件的那個門檻件數那個日期快到了先讓他件數過關過關以後拿到補件期的10天他們再趕快再繼續拼連署\n\n06:03.752 --> 06:15.366\n因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話這個構成偽造文書麻煩次長你不敢回答我就算了沒關係啦我跟你講啦反正現在很多\n\n06:18.735 --> 06:36.534\n很多側翼的律師他們有很特殊的法律見解我都尊重好那我這邊講目前我對法律的理解就是這樣而且我為我我一直以來我的個性就是這樣我為我說過的每一句話負責那如果有這個狀況其實就應該要查緝啦那\n\n06:36.994 --> 06:59.167\n如果是一二階連署單上面肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣其實啊中選會不應該一句話說我不予告發我認為這是一個不負責任中選而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會公務機關應該要依法行政那如果是這種態度的話我實在是不認為這是一個\n\n07:02.068 --> 07:30.105\n議法行政的行政機關不過我對於李紀勇主委的評價一路以來我沒有變過我對他的評價就是那樣子他真的是貴黨有非常多傑出的人才也有很多至少是還算公正的人才那今天會去請一個非常不公正的去擔任一個獨立機關的主委我也是覺得就是我們還是都希望國家好\n\n07:30.947 --> 07:31.089\n阿娜\n\n07:32.113 --> 08:00.841\n後面我請教一下那個次長回到今天的議題啦因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答那個那個黃宏威委員我想請那個次長我們前兩個禮拜不是有去那個那個那個城鎮中學嗎對不對次長也有去嘛那城鎮中學當時有說他有很多問題就是譬如說空間以及人力等等那請問一下部長次長您知不知道到底問題出在哪那\n\n08:01.843 --> 08:30.618\n上次去完到現在部裡面有做任何的改革嗎請次長回答一下那個城鎮中學他主要提出是他的空間改善因為他們的這個空間很老舊而且過去的規劃跟現在不一樣那他們現在已經啟動了部分其實在那邊我們去看的時候都有圍起來所以他現在已經有做一部分的改善那後續我們他有跟矯正署報相關的後續的計畫那矯正署也都會做那另外有提出來的部分就是Lady有老師\n\n08:31.738 --> 08:59.416\n他有提出來一些就是關於這個輔導的空間因為那個很多的這個說的這些學生他們可能需要個別的心理的輔導那尤其是在女生的部分不是女生啦那個有一些部分會有隱私隔離的問題等等的那這個部分呢我也請他們提出具體的方案那我們會請教練署就經費部分大家予以協助這樣好吧\n\n09:01.017 --> 09:20.480\n這樣也沒有講得很具體啦但是我想說齁因為時間也蠻短的那當天大家也吃了那個現場小朋友做的麵包我們不能白吃嘛白吃他的麵包所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的問題包括一些空間啦還有一些那個收容學生暴增那我請教一下次長一個問題喔\n\n09:22.161 --> 09:48.090\n那個陳振中學他2024年初到現在他突然暴增了112個收容的學生那等於是多了七成耶但是我國的這個青少年的犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊市長有沒有發現或有沒有去研究到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加但是他跟我們的青少年的犯罪率兩個搭不上啊\n\n09:49.330 --> 10:16.255\n這個陳振中學師辦這個感化教育所以他的學生的來源是少年法庭的法官裁定那他就會進來這樣子所以這個可能跟這個法院的裁法官的這個裁定的這個方向所調整有關係也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年的這個事件那可能使得法官認為說要增加利用這個感化教育這個工具來協助輔導這些那這是次長\n\n10:16.815 --> 10:31.342\n那個研判可能性那這個可不可以一個月內給我們回覆一下報告請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增但是他跟我們的那個青少年犯罪率其實是搭不上的還有一個原因出在哪裡還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯這個陳少共犯\n\n10:32.282 --> 10:48.369\n突然增加很多有關係這個問題我請他們去做具體的聯繫這個問題不是2024年出到現在你說的這個問題是已經好多年了不是只有去年到現在還突然暴增的新的犯罪類型所以要麻煩一下那我想說這個報告裡面\n\n10:50.030 --> 11:06.818\n幫我們稍微也要加入就是這個正直跟戴克老師的比例還有那個失之流動也就是不穩定的原因也幫我們研究一下那然後還有就是因為我們知道小朋友在那邊其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛\n\n11:07.478 --> 11:36.838\n所以這個部份是不是你們有跟教育部衛福部或是勞動部這些合作單位是怎麼個合作也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下這個跟我們報告好你這一天那天的簡報事實上他的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入所以我請那個陳鎮忠學再把數字那也麻煩市長因為市長我們要求大家行政機關做出我的辦公室的習慣每一份報告來我們都會都會深入去研究我們不是說隨便談一個你報告給我們我們就不管了我們每一個報告都\n\n11:37.639 --> 11:52.800\n都會深入去研究所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告那另外還有一個就是說當天城鎮中學的校長簡報他有提到110年到112年的轉學學生的比例從70到61到48等於是一直在遞減\n\n11:53.962 --> 12:20.413\n所以有過半的學生離開之後並沒有轉嫌上學校去啊那我想次長你知道應該知道轉嫌的重要性嗎這個有一些問題是說因為他們其實很多出校的時候他可能已經成年了或是職業之類的其他問題但是因為我剛剛跟委員報告說這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致所以我會請城鎮中學把正確的數字跟剛剛委員隨詢的原因\n\n12:21.573 --> 12:45.992\n再用書面來回覆您說的部分人是成年沒有錯但是有一些也是會成年那是不是說我們可以把他轉去一些即職學校等等的讓他能夠更好的回歸社會有人不愛念書我們可以理解但是我們國家有非常多的即職學校是不是能夠好好的去盯一下他們有沒有轉弦到想念書的我們轉弦回學校不想念書的轉弦去即職學校嘛\n\n12:46.272 --> 13:12.749\n就對國家才有幫助我想當然我們都是去即時學校啦所以說如果他有意願的話我們一定都會來處理那你們一定要盯喔因為我跟你講那個兒少學級轉型還有復學辦法第七條五七八這三條其實有提到就是說法務部他在離開矯正學校前的一個月內他本來就要召開這個輔導會議然後他到學校去之後的一個月內他也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議所以你們一定會有這個數據\n\n13:16.051 --> 13:37.265\n這部分要麻煩你們給我最後不好意思再給我一點點時間就是那個比例人數比例的問題就是借戶人數比例的問題因為上個禮拜那個矯正署有來一邊有談一些那個借戶人數的那個比例然後我再回去找了一些資料我發現我們台灣的那個借戶比其實比鄰近的國家有的超到兩倍以上\n\n13:38.206 --> 14:00.299\n那當然我知道現在找這個介乎人力本來也不容易啦公務員現在越來越沒有人想要當更何況說這個要住在裡面然後有時候在裡面手機也因為那個屏蔽所以手機也收不到跟家人會斷連續有些人不喜歡這樣的工作或家人不允許這樣的工作這我們可以理解但是這會是一個大問題然後我又看到高雄女監\n\n14:01.400 --> 14:21.559\n他晚上管理人18人然後除了輪班跟睡覺之外一個人要管300多個收容人所以裡面有一點點小事情那就會出大事了更何況去年6月的時候那不是曾經發生過就是因為女監不能好好洗澡啊所以他們當時有集體抗議嘛\n\n14:22.439 --> 14:29.402\n還有噴辣椒水才把那個壓制下來所以這會是一個問題我們以前當警察官的時候會去視察監獄我們發現一個狀況現在監獄裡面受刑的年紀有很多年紀都很大了\n\n14:38.286 --> 14:55.350\n那因為大家的平均餘命越來越長嘛所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病精神疾病等等的這些問題都是現在監所要面臨的那如果我們的接戶比喲越來越少那這個是會將來這個監所可能發生問題的狀況會變多我不知道副理有沒有發現這個狀況\n\n15:00.726 --> 15:25.411\n跟委員報告委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題因為有一些精神疾病的大概就是他會跟人家產生衝突一直送違規射所以當然我們有培德院區說那個精神分裂症但是他要比較嚴重的才收那因此我們我上任之後我就要擴通他的量能\n\n15:25.951 --> 15:51.547\n因此我們藉由行後性侵的這個大渡山莊已經移出去了所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病患者的讓他的床位更多一點現在我們也增加不少的床位將來會紓解一些反社會人格也好或是尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人常常跟人家打架的這一些我們會收治\n\n15:53.348 --> 16:15.286\n其實我在這段時間我發現署長非常的認真而且非常在預政改革上用很多心但是因為署長下個月要農退那我也很擔心說那這個改革或者是這個對收工人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果回歸社會會不會對國家有正向的影響我也會擔心有沒有辦法先接上去啊\n\n16:15.626 --> 16:33.980\n各位報告我想我們部長他會慎重選擇比如說在中央機關有歷練而且是在現職的八大的所謂的典獄長他有那個經驗的我們這個心火相傳可以繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題那這樣我想\n\n16:34.921 --> 16:55.828\n那個我希望這個部裡面就是能夠也再給我一份數據的報告就是剛剛提到的那個轉嫌這個減少的那個報告一定要給我給我一份還有講如果有問題的話怎麼改善還有這個配套措施怎麼做以及這個借戶比再麻煩給我們一份好那最後那個謝謝署長署長為國家奉獻一輩子\n\n16:58.089 --> 16:59.172\n非常敬佩署長署長退休愉快謝謝吳宗憲委員這個改革都還沒有起\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.622,"end":21.373,"text":"請黃次長我想先延續一下王宏威委員的問題因為上一次王玉川委員告發黃國昌偽造文書那當時我也是請法務部要嚴辦黃國昌委員那北檢也馬上就分案調查了"},{"start":22.193,"end":39.489,"text":"我想說法務部這個部分可能也是要督導一下地檢署這個分案的部分就一定要分案那另外我也是建議啦為了避免掉一些紛爭喔盡量這種案件不要用只分的方式盡量用輪分的方式處理好嗎"},{"start":40.45,"end":60.187,"text":"其實過往這些辦的這些案子啊那我一直沒有講一些我自己的對外的一些心裡的話因為他其實承辦的檢察官他以前在群組裡面常常做一些政治的發言以及他們的政治傾向我們也都很了解但是因為我尊重檢方的辦案"},{"start":60.988,"end":75.81,"text":"所以次長可以知道我從之前到現在我一直沒有去論述這件事情因為我都是尊重每一位檢察官他各自的政治傾向那我們也期待說檢察官在辦案的時候不要把自己的政治傾向放到"},{"start":76.471,"end":92.318,"text":"公務裡面我們自己以前也是這樣一路過來的我們有自己的政治傾向但我們在辦案的時候就是秉公處理就像那個陳瑞仁大學長一樣他就說他是深綠的他的他政治傾向是深綠但是他在辦案的時候他的"},{"start":93.158,"end":121.004,"text":"這個政治傾向他只有在投票的那個帷幕的欄裡面他只要出了投票的時候他在公務上面的處理一定是秉公處理所以我不會去批評說那些檢察官他們平常在群組裡面是發言那種論述但是至少我們希望說辦案能夠持平的辦案那可以的話盡量不要用指分的方式用輪分的方式所以跟我們報告就是我們的立場基本的態度都是跟我們類似的就是說"},{"start":121.964,"end":136.122,"text":"我們會尊重地檢署他的作業那我們會尊重甲官辦案的權限沒有 我這公開呼籲啦我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式只是說有時候是這樣你越介入越多 越容易讓人家想"},{"start":137.123,"end":161.51,"text":"想很多嘛那最好的方式一切依法最好是電腦輪分啊電腦輪分大家比較沒有意見那第二個我想請教一下次長因為次長也是那個學有專精的法律人次長是非常那個專業於法律上那我想請教一個問題因為大家一直在講說這個二階二階連署的時候有非常多人跟一階是重複的"},{"start":162.506,"end":188.316,"text":"那依照規定這一二階他不能是同仁嘛那當然啦那個中選會他是說這個是依法剔除所以他們不告發那我在這邊請教我這邊先說明一個啦如果因為民眾不了解我國的法治規定而去重複就一階以及二階他重複去連署那當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊那我想請教一下次長"},{"start":189.176,"end":206.481,"text":"這樣如果說今天有罷免團體 他為了拼最後送件的期限因為連署的人數還不到門檻 件數不到門檻他為了衝最後的期限可以送件 然後去騙取中選會的十天的補件期間"},{"start":208.061,"end":226.286,"text":"因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去那請問一下這個有沒有構成偽造文書法律論述 法律論述因為這個都很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案所以我想對於假設性的事實問題對於假設性事實問題我們不會去做這個有意見的說明"},{"start":231.787,"end":260.304,"text":"那我想是否構成違照文書我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢管他們對個案的反對來啦 次長又回到個案了啦那次長講一個我剛剛講很簡單嘛如果今天連署團體他簽了別人的名字進去連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候講得很大聲啊還說是我想法務部從來沒有針對我們任何一個個案去對這件事情做出不管是"},{"start":261.304,"end":290.624,"text":"個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷啦我們不是在考試啦市長我本來蠻尊重您對法律的理解如果市長連這個事我到時候說講不出口好吧那正次就是正次的樣子嘛謝謝市長不好意思啦因為我們是法務部啦我們是做法務行政所以我剛一直說所以我沒有講個案我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛我只是請教市長這個是一個法律的通案嘛這是一個法律的通案"},{"start":292.204,"end":315.911,"text":"那如果今天不要講說跟連署有關啦那我問你嘛A沒有同意他的名字去做連署那B把A的名字抄去做連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書委員您說的這個就是在考試嘛我一直講法律論述啊那我想這個委員也是學有專精啦刑法上當然這個構不構成你也很清楚嘛"},{"start":318.152,"end":335.957,"text":"那我跟次長報告次長竟然還是不願意回答我跟次長報告以我對於法律的理解那中選會主委他說的是廢話中選會主委說這個部分二接有重複連署的部分不告發但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自"},{"start":337.617,"end":362.391,"text":"去做第二次的連署民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署那這當然是沒有構成偽造文書但是如果有坊間現在一直在傳的是說罷免團體他們為了要拼送件的那個門檻件數那個日期快到了先讓他件數過關過關以後拿到補件期的10天他們再趕快再繼續拼連署"},{"start":363.752,"end":375.366,"text":"因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話這個構成偽造文書麻煩次長你不敢回答我就算了沒關係啦我跟你講啦反正現在很多"},{"start":378.735,"end":396.534,"text":"很多側翼的律師他們有很特殊的法律見解我都尊重好那我這邊講目前我對法律的理解就是這樣而且我為我我一直以來我的個性就是這樣我為我說過的每一句話負責那如果有這個狀況其實就應該要查緝啦那"},{"start":396.994,"end":419.167,"text":"如果是一二階連署單上面 肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣其實啊 中選會不應該一句話說 我不予告發我認為這是一個不負責任中選 而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會公務機關應該要依法行政 那如果是這種態度的話我實在是不認為這是一個"},{"start":422.068,"end":450.105,"text":"議法行政的行政機關不過我對於李紀勇主委的評價一路以來我沒有變過我對他的評價就是那樣子他真的是貴黨有非常多傑出的人才也有很多至少是還算公正的人才那今天會去請一個非常不公正的去擔任一個獨立機關的主委我也是覺得就是我們還是都希望國家好"},{"start":450.947,"end":451.089,"text":"阿娜"},{"start":452.113,"end":480.841,"text":"後面我請教一下那個次長回到今天的議題啦因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答那個那個黃宏威委員我想請那個次長我們前兩個禮拜不是有去那個那個那個城鎮中學嗎對不對次長也有去嘛那城鎮中學當時有說他有很多問題就是譬如說空間以及人力等等那請問一下部長次長您知不知道到底問題出在哪那"},{"start":481.843,"end":510.618,"text":"上次去完到現在 部裡面有做任何的改革嗎請次長回答一下那個城鎮中學他主要提出是他的空間改善因為他們的這個空間很老舊而且過去的規劃跟現在不一樣那他們現在已經啟動了部分其實在那邊我們去看的時候都有圍起來所以他現在已經有做一部分的改善那後續我們他有跟矯正署報相關的後續的計畫那矯正署也都會做那另外有提出來的部分就是Lady有老師"},{"start":511.738,"end":539.416,"text":"他有提出來一些就是關於這個輔導的空間因為那個很多的這個說的這些學生他們可能需要個別的心理的輔導那尤其是在女生的部分不是女生啦那個有一些部分會有隱私隔離的問題等等的那這個部分呢我也請他們提出具體的方案那我們會請教練署就經費部分大家予以協助這樣好吧"},{"start":541.017,"end":560.48,"text":"這樣也沒有講得很具體啦 但是我想說齁 因為時間也蠻短的那當天大家也吃了那個現場小朋友做的麵包我們不能白吃嘛 白吃他的麵包所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的問題 包括一些空間啦還有一些那個收容學生暴增那我請教一下次長一個問題喔"},{"start":562.161,"end":588.09,"text":"那個陳振中學他2024年初到現在他突然暴增了112個收容的學生那等於是多了七成耶但是我國的這個青少年的犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊市長有沒有發現或有沒有去研究到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加但是他跟我們的青少年的犯罪率兩個搭不上啊"},{"start":589.33,"end":616.255,"text":"這個陳振中學師辦這個感化教育所以他的學生的來源是少年法庭的法官裁定那他就會進來這樣子所以這個可能跟這個法院的裁法官的這個裁定的這個方向所調整有關係也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年的這個事件那可能使得法官認為說要增加利用這個感化教育這個工具來協助輔導這些那這是次長"},{"start":616.815,"end":631.342,"text":"那個研判可能性那這個可不可以一個月內給我們回覆一下報告請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增但是他跟我們的那個青少年犯罪率其實是搭不上的還有一個原因出在哪裡還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯這個陳少共犯"},{"start":632.282,"end":648.369,"text":"突然增加很多有關係這個問題我請他們去做具體的聯繫這個問題不是2024年出到現在你說的這個問題是已經好多年了不是只有去年到現在還突然暴增的新的犯罪類型所以要麻煩一下那我想說這個報告裡面"},{"start":650.03,"end":666.818,"text":"幫我們稍微也要加入就是這個正直跟戴克老師的比例還有那個失之流動也就是不穩定的原因也幫我們研究一下那然後還有就是因為我們知道小朋友在那邊其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛"},{"start":667.478,"end":696.838,"text":"所以這個部份是不是你們有跟教育部衛福部或是勞動部這些合作單位是怎麼個合作也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下這個跟我們報告好你這一天那天的簡報事實上他的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入所以我請那個陳鎮忠學再把數字那也麻煩市長因為市長我們要求大家行政機關做出我的辦公室的習慣每一份報告來我們都會都會深入去研究我們不是說隨便談一個你報告給我們我們就不管了我們每一個報告都"},{"start":697.639,"end":712.8,"text":"都會深入去研究所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告那另外還有一個就是說當天城鎮中學的校長簡報他有提到110年到112年的轉學學生的比例從70到61到48等於是一直在遞減"},{"start":713.962,"end":740.413,"text":"所以有過半的學生離開之後並沒有轉嫌上學校去啊那我想 次長你知道應該知道轉嫌的重要性嗎這個有一些問題是說因為他們其實很多出校的時候他可能已經成年了或是職業之類的其他問題但是因為我剛剛跟委員報告說這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致所以我會請城鎮中學把正確的數字跟剛剛委員隨詢的原因"},{"start":741.573,"end":765.992,"text":"再用書面來回覆您說的部分人是成年沒有錯但是有一些也是會成年那是不是說我們可以把他轉去一些即職學校等等的讓他能夠更好的回歸社會有人不愛念書我們可以理解但是我們國家有非常多的即職學校是不是能夠好好的去盯一下他們有沒有轉弦到想念書的我們轉弦回學校不想念書的轉弦去即職學校嘛"},{"start":766.272,"end":792.749,"text":"就對國家才有幫助我想當然我們都是去即時學校啦所以說如果他有意願的話我們一定都會來處理那你們一定要盯喔因為我跟你講那個兒少學級轉型還有復學辦法第七條 五 七 八這三條其實有提到就是說法務部他在離開矯正學校前的一個月內他本來就要召開這個輔導會議然後他到學校去之後的一個月內他也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議所以你們一定會有這個數據"},{"start":796.051,"end":817.265,"text":"這部分要麻煩你們給我最後不好意思再給我一點點時間就是那個比例 人數比例的問題就是借戶人數比例的問題因為上個禮拜那個矯正署有來一邊有談一些那個借戶人數的那個比例然後我再回去找了一些資料我發現我們台灣的那個借戶比其實比鄰近的國家有的超到兩倍以上"},{"start":818.206,"end":840.299,"text":"那當然我知道現在找這個介乎人力本來也不容易啦公務員現在越來越沒有人想要當更何況說這個要住在裡面然後有時候在裡面手機也因為那個屏蔽所以手機也收不到跟家人會斷連續有些人不喜歡這樣的工作或家人不允許這樣的工作這我們可以理解但是這會是一個大問題然後我又看到高雄女監"},{"start":841.4,"end":861.559,"text":"他晚上管理人18人然後除了輪班跟睡覺之外一個人要管300多個收容人所以裡面有一點點小事情那就會出大事了更何況去年6月的時候那不是曾經發生過就是因為女監不能好好洗澡啊所以他們當時有集體抗議嘛"},{"start":862.439,"end":869.402,"text":"還有噴辣椒水才把那個壓制下來所以這會是一個問題我們以前當警察官的時候會去視察監獄我們發現一個狀況現在監獄裡面受刑的年紀有很多年紀都很大了"},{"start":878.286,"end":895.35,"text":"那因為大家的平均餘命越來越長嘛所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病精神疾病等等的這些問題都是現在監所要面臨的那如果我們的接戶比喲越來越少那這個是會將來這個監所可能發生問題的狀況會變多我不知道副理有沒有發現這個狀況"},{"start":900.726,"end":925.411,"text":"跟委員報告 委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題因為有一些精神疾病的大概就是他會跟人家產生衝突 一直送違規射所以當然我們有培德院區說那個精神分裂症但是他要比較嚴重的才收那因此我們 我上任之後我就要擴通他的量能"},{"start":925.951,"end":951.547,"text":"因此我們藉由行後性侵的這個大渡山莊已經移出去了所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病患者的讓他的床位更多一點現在我們也增加不少的床位將來會紓解一些反社會人格也好或是尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人常常跟人家打架的這一些我們會收治"},{"start":953.348,"end":975.286,"text":"其實我在這段時間我發現署長非常的認真而且非常在預政改革上用很多心但是因為署長下個月要農退那我也很擔心說那這個改革或者是這個對收工人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果回歸社會會不會對國家有正向的影響我也會擔心有沒有辦法先接上去啊"},{"start":975.626,"end":993.98,"text":"各位報告我想我們部長他會慎重選擇比如說在中央機關有歷練而且是在現職的八大的所謂的典獄長他有那個經驗的我們這個心火相傳可以繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題那這樣我想"},{"start":994.921,"end":1015.828,"text":"那個我希望這個部裡面就是能夠也再給我一份數據的報告就是剛剛提到的那個轉嫌這個減少的那個報告一定要給我給我一份還有講如果有問題的話怎麼改善還有這個配套措施怎麼做以及這個借戶比再麻煩給我們一份好那最後那個謝謝署長署長為國家奉獻一輩子"},{"start":1018.089,"end":1019.172,"text":"非常敬佩署長 署長退休愉快謝謝吳宗憲委員 這個改革都還沒有起"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時54分）謝謝主席。麻煩次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我先延續王鴻薇委員的問題。上次王義川委員告發黃國昌偽造文書，當時我也請法務部要嚴辦黃國昌委員，北檢也馬上分案調查。對這部分，法務部可能也要督導一下，讓地檢署該分案的就一定要分案。","我另外建議，為避免紛爭，這種案件盡量不要指分，盡量用輪分的方式處理，好嗎？對過往所偵辦的這些案子，我一些心裡話一直沒有對外講。其實承辦檢察官以前在群組裡常常做一些政治發言，他們的政治傾向我們都很了解，但我尊重檢方辦案。次長應該知道，從之前到現在，我一直沒有去論述這件事情，因為我尊重每一位檢察官各自的政治傾向。但我們也期待檢察官在辦案的時候，不要把自己的政治傾向放到公務裡面，我們自己以前是這樣一路走過來的！我們有自己的政治傾向，但我們在辦案的時候就是秉公處理！就像陳瑞仁大學長，他說他是深綠的，他的政治傾向是深綠，但在辦案時，其政治傾向只在投票所的帷幕欄裡，出了投票所，在公務上一定秉公處理。所以我不會批評那些檢察官平常在群組裡的發言與論述，不過辦案時至少要能持平辦案。可以的話，這個案子就儘量不要用指分，用輪分的方式處理。"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，我們的立場與基本態度都跟委員類似，我們會尊重地檢署的作業，也尊重檢察官辦案的權限……"],["吳委員宗憲：這是公開呼籲，我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式，只是有時候介入越多越容易讓人家想很多，所以最好的方式就是一切依法，用電腦輪分。用電腦輪分，大家比較沒有意見。","第二個我想請教次長，次長也是學有專精的法律人，次長在法律上非常專業。我想請教一個問題，因為大家一直在講二階連署的時候，有非常多人跟一階是重複的，依照規定，一、二階的連署人不能是同一個人嘛。當然中選會是說，這個部分是依法剔除，所以他們不告發，我在這邊請教，我先說明一個啦，如果因為民眾不了解我國的法制規定，而去就一階及二階重複去做連署，這當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊，我想請教一下次長，如果說今天有罷免團體，他們為了拚最後送件的期限，因為連署的人數還不到門檻，件數不到門檻，他們為了衝最後的期限可以送件，然後去騙取中選會10天的補件期間，因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去，那請問一下這個有沒有構成偽造文書？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告……"],["吳委員宗憲：法律論述、法律論述、法律論述。"],["黃次長世杰：因為這個很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案，所以我想對於假設性的事實問題……"],["吳委員宗憲：法律論述，報告次長，你不要在……"],["黃次長世杰：對於假設性事實問題，我們不會去做預先的說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在請教……"],["黃次長世杰：我想是否構成偽造文書，我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢察官他們對個案的判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長又回到個案了啦！"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我剛剛講很簡單嘛，如果今天連署團體，它簽了一階，簽了別人的名字進去連署，這樣有沒有構成偽造文書？這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候，講得很大聲啊，還說是集團……"],["黃次長世杰：我想法務部從來沒有針對任何一個個案，去對這些事情做出……不管是個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷，我們不是在考試啦，這個都是個案啦。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我本來滿尊重您對法律的理解，如果次長連這個是偽造文書都講不出口。好吧，政次就是政次的樣子嘛，謝謝次長。"],["黃次長世杰：不好意思，因為我們是法務部啦，我們是做法務行政……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我剛剛一直說……"],["黃次長世杰：所以剛剛回答的部分……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我沒有講個案，我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：我知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：我只是請教次長，這個是一個法律的通案嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：這是一個法律的通案，好，如果今天不要講說這跟連署有關，那我問你嘛，A沒有同意他的名字去做連署，那B把A的名字抄去做連署，這樣有沒有構成偽造文書？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，您說的這個就是在考試嘛，就是做一個考題嘛……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我一直講法律論述啊。"],["黃次長世杰：我想委員也是學有專精啦，當然刑法上這個構不構成，你也很清楚嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，你又丟回來，那我跟次長報告，次長既然還是不願意回答，那我跟次長報告……"],["黃次長世杰：不敢。"],["吳委員宗憲：以我對於法律的理解，中選會主委說的是廢話，中選會主委說這個部分、二階有重複連署的部分不告發，但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自去做第二次的連署，民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署，這當然是沒有構成偽造文書，但是如果有……坊間現在一直在傳的是，罷免團體他們為了要拚送件的門檻、件數，因為那個日期快到了，先讓件數過關，過關以後拿到補件期的10天，他們再趕快繼續拚連署，因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話，這個構成偽造文書！沒關係，次長，你不敢回答我，就算了！"],["黃次長世杰：沒關係，我尊重委員的描述跟對於法律問題的見解。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係啦，我跟你講啦，反正現在很多側翼的律師，他們有很特殊的法律見解，我都尊重。"],["黃次長世杰：他們有他們個別的見解，大家都是言論自由。"],["吳委員宗憲：我這邊要講，目前我對法律的理解就是這樣，而且我為我……一直以來，我的個性就是這樣，我為我說過的每一句話負責。好，如果有這個狀況，其實就應該要查緝啦。"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是一、二階連署單上面，肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣，其實中選會不應該一句話說「我不予告發」，我認為這是一個不負責任的中選會，而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會，公務機關應該要依法行政，如果是這種態度的話，我實在不認為這是一個依法行政的行政機關。"],["黃次長世杰：我想地方選委會跟中選會他們有沒有做這個查對，我們尊重他們的說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：不過，我對於李進勇主委的評價，一路以來我沒有變過，我對他的評價就是那樣子，他真的是……貴黨有非常多傑出的人才，也有很多至少是還算公正的人才，今天會請一個非常不公正的人去擔任一個獨立機關的主委，我也是覺得……就是我們還是都希望國家好啦。","後面我再請教一下次長，回到今天的議題啦，因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答王鴻薇委員。次長，前兩個禮拜我們不是有去誠正中學嗎，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長也有去嘛，誠正中學當時有說他們有很多問題，譬如空間以及人力等等，請問一下次長，您知不知道到底問題出在哪裡？上次去完之後到現在，部裡面有做任何的改革嗎？請次長回答。"],["黃次長世杰：誠正中學主要提出的是他們的空間改善，因為他們的空間很老舊，而且過去的規劃跟現在不一樣，他們現在已經啟動了部分，其實當天我們去看的時候都有圍起來嘛，所以他們現在已經有做一部分的改善，後續我們……他們有跟矯正署報相關的後續計畫，矯正署也都會做。另外，他們有提出來的部分，就是那天也有老師嘛，他們有提出來一些關於輔導的空間，因為很多收容的學生，他們可能需要個別的心理輔導，尤其特別在女生的部分，其實應該不是女生啦，而是有一些部分會有隱私、隔離的問題等等，這個部分，我們也請他們提出具體的方案，我們會請矯正署就經費的部分予以協助，這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧，因為次長也沒有講得很具體啦，但是我想說，因為時間也滿短的，當天大家也吃了現場小朋友做的麵包，我們不能白吃他們的麵包嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們一定會協助。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的這些問題，包括空間，還有收容學生暴增的問題。我請教一下次長一個問題，誠正中學從2024年初到現在，突然暴增了112個收容的學生，等於是多了七成耶，但是我國的青少年犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊，次長有沒有發現，或有沒有去研究，到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加？但是它跟我們國內青少年的犯罪率，兩個搭不上啊，請問次長。"],["黃次長世杰：誠正中學是辦感化教育，所以它的學生來源是少年法庭的法官裁定，之後他就會進來這樣子，所以這個可能跟法官的裁定的方向有所調整有關係，也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年事件，可能使得法官認為要增加利用感化教育這個工具，來協助輔導這些少年。"],["吳委員宗憲：這是次長研判的可能性嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：對，我推測的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個部分可不可以一個月內給我們回復一下報告？請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增。"],["黃次長世杰：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為它跟我們青少年的犯罪率其實是搭不上的，原因出在哪裡？"],["黃次長世杰：還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯、兒少共犯突然間增加很多有關係，但這個部分我請他們去做具體的分析，再給委員回復。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有啊，這個問題不是2024年初到現在耶，你說的這個問題是已經好多年了。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是只有去年到現在才突然暴增的新的犯罪類型，所以要麻煩一下，我想在這個報告裡面，也幫我們稍微加入正職跟代課老師的比例，還有師資流動不穩定的原因，也幫我們研究一下。"],["黃次長世杰：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有就是，因為我們知道小朋友在那邊，其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛，所以這個部分你們是不是有跟教育部、衛福部或是勞動部合作，這些合作單位是怎麼合作的？也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下。"],["黃次長世杰：這個跟委員報告，關於那一天的簡報，事實上它的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入啦，所以我有請誠正中學再把數字做正確一點……"],["吳委員宗憲：那也麻煩次長，次長，我們要求大家、行政機關做出……我辦公室的習慣，每一份報告來，我們都會深入去研究。"],["黃次長世杰：瞭解。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們不是說隨便喊一個你報告給我們，然後我們就不管了，每一個報告我們都會深入去研究，所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告。"],["黃次長世杰：好，會的、會的。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，還有一個就是說，當天誠正中學校長的簡報有提到110年到112年轉學學生的比例，從70到61到48，等於是一直在遞減，所以有過半的學生離開之後，並沒有轉銜上學校去啊，次長，你應該知道轉銜的重要性……"],["黃次長世杰：這個有一些問題，因為他們其實很多在出校的時候，他可能已經成年啦，或是之類其他的問題，但是剛剛我有跟委員報告說，這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致，所以我會請誠正中學把正確的數字，跟剛剛委員垂詢的原因，再用書面來回復委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：您說的部分人是成年沒有錯，但是有一些也是未成年，是不是我們可以把他轉去一些技職學校等等的，讓他能夠更好的回歸社會？有人不愛唸書，我們可以理解，但是我們國家有非常多技職學校，是不是能夠好好地去盯一下他們有沒有轉銜？對於想唸書的就轉銜回學校，不想唸書的就轉銜到技職學校，這對國家才有幫助啊！"],["黃次長正杰：是，我想大部分都是去技職學校，所以如果他有意願的話，我們一定都會來處理、來幫忙。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，你們一定要盯，因為我跟你講，兒童及少年受安置輔導或感化教育之學籍轉銜及復學辦法第五條、第七條、第八條這3條其實有提到，法務部在他離開矯正學校前的一個月內，本來就要召開輔導會議，然後他到學校去之後的一個月內也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議。"],["黃次長正杰：會追蹤。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你們一定會有這個數據，這個部分要麻煩你們給我。"],["黃次長正杰：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後，不好意思，再給我一點點的時間，就是那個人數比例的問題。"],["黃次長正杰：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：有關戒護人數比例，上個禮拜矯正署有來這邊談一些戒護人數的比例，我再回去找了一些資料，我發現臺灣的戒護比其實比鄰近的國家超過兩倍以上。當然我知道現在找這個戒護人力本來就不容易，公務員現在愈來愈沒有人想要當，更何況這個要住在裡面，然後有時候在裡面手機也因為屏蔽訊號也收不到，跟家人也會斷了聯繫，有一些人不喜歡這樣的工作，或是家人不允許這樣的工作，這些我們可以理解，但是這會是一個大問題。","然後我又看到高雄女監，晚上的管理員有18人，除了輪班跟睡覺的之外，一個人要管三百多個收容人，所以裡面只要有一點點小事情就會出大事。更何況去年6月的時候，不就曾經發生過……因為女監不能好好洗澡，所以他們當時有集體抗議，還有噴辣椒水什麼的才把那個壓制下來，所以這會是一個問題。","以前我當檢察官的時候會去視察監獄，於是就發現一個狀況，現在監獄裡面的受刑人很多年紀都很大了，因為大家的平均餘命愈來愈長，所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病、精神疾病等等的問題，都是現在監所要面臨的。如果我們的戒護比又愈來愈少，監所將來發生問題的狀況可能會變多，不知道部裡有沒有發現這個狀況？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題，因為有一些有精神疾病的，他會跟人家產生衝突，要一直送違規舍。我們當然有培德院區可收精神分裂症，但也要是比較嚴重的才收，因此我上任之後就要擴充它的量能，於是藉由性侵犯刑後治療的大肚山莊，已經移出去了，所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病犯人的地方，讓床位更多一點，現在我們也增加了不少的床位，將來會紓解一些包括反社會人格，尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人，會常常跟人家打架的這些我們會收治。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝署長。署長，這段時間我發現署長非常認真，而且在獄政改革上用了很多心，但因為署長下個月要榮退了，我也很擔心這個改革，或是這個對收容人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果？回歸社會對國家會不會有正向的影響？我也會擔心有沒有辦法銜接上去啊！"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，我想我們部長會慎重選擇，比如說在中央機關有歷練，而且是現職所謂的八大典獄長具有經驗的，我們會薪火相傳，繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：我希望部裡面能夠再給我一份數據的報告，就是剛剛提到的那個轉銜減少的報告一定要給我一份，還有如果有問題的話怎麼改善、還有配套措施怎麼做？以及戒護比再麻煩給我們一份。","最後，謝謝署長，署長為國家奉獻一輩子，非常敬佩署長，祝署長退休愉快。"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。這個改革都還沒有起步，還有很長的一段路。其實我都一直這樣覺得，每一個人有每一個人成長的背景，小時候我在鄉下，以前是有管訓隊，我看那些犯人都在挑石頭，長大之後這些事就沒有了、沒有這種現象了，這其實就是一種進步。我們現在也揚棄了特別權力關係，但問題是畢竟受刑人還是不一樣。","再次強調，為什麼我們司法及法制委員會一直要排這些考察？其實我們還是會繼續排下去，會排下去的原因，其實除了整個獄政的改革以外，受刑人犯了罪，接受國家的應報，這本來就有應報，可是我們又認為他要回歸社會，所以要教育又有矯正，這個考驗著整個矯正署，真的也確實是「石磨仔心」，也不是只偏重管理。","像我個人最常收到的就是要尿布的，個案都是要尿布啊！我一看就有七成、八成，全部都是受刑人啊！但是犯罪的人其實都有他的背景，他們的態樣都比較不一樣，所以到最後我們今天為什麼很多委員，連國民黨的委員也會出來，已經不再像前面那麼肅殺了，就是說你這個犯罪的人，你就是該怎麼樣，全部都要嚴懲、都要什麼。這已經到獄政的部分、已經判決確定了，所以對於這個穿著囚衣的國民，其基本人權到底要給到什麼地方？剛好矯正署也認為，這個是屬於基本的……他基本生活的這個部分是國家要去編預算，但這個基本生活到底是到哪裡？大家對這個也可以一併思考。","今天已進入尾聲，接下來我們請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","我們所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料，或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員楊瓊瓔、蘇清泉所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}}