{"id":162791,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91aa600aa7780cbdd6bb9483b76f331b600afb45025fabe462394876b56de8f8c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:21:07 - 12:34:08","影片長度":"00:13:01","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T12:21:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T12:34:08+08:00","duration":781,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162791","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162791","tool":"pyannote","id":"162791-pyannote"},"job_id":"PiDQIrpPkJ11oRVV","queued_at":"2025-06-23 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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 551.311, \"end\": 551.451, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 551.451, \"end\": 551.591, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 551.591, \"end\": 553.513, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 553.513, \"end\": 553.753, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 553.753, \"end\": 554.374, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 554.374, \"end\": 554.554, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 554.554, \"end\": 554.714, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 554.714, \"end\": 554.874, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 554.874, \"end\": 555.655, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 555.655, \"end\": 556.055, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 556.055, \"end\": 556.215, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, 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\"end\": 776.817, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,220 --> 00:00:05,527\n好謝謝主席那先請長照司謝謝來請祝市長\n\n2\n00:00:14,739 --> 00:00:43,117\n委员好好司长我想要快速跟您讨论关于照专的事情我上次已经来谈过因为我们看到长照3.0即将上路那我之前跟你讨论过他们的个案量其实远远超过这个相关数字当时你给我的回应是说我们有考虑要把照专从临时人员改为政府聘雇人员已经改了对已经改了那可是我想要跟你说来长照3.0之后呢看一下目前我们有一个很重要的规划叫做医疗长照无缝接轨\n\n3\n00:00:43,937 --> 00:01:02,877\n當我們要做到這件事情的時候我們其實需要第一線的照專協助我們對不對好這個您非常的清楚結果很多照專就立刻看到這個就非常緊張來跟我們澄清因為除了我們剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的那當然是因為很多人不願意來做這個工作那\n\n4\n00:01:03,217 --> 00:01:32,357\n我們現在很擔心假設醫療長照無縫接軌在後續的推動上我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實而不是所有最後工作loading都落在照專跟A個管身上因為我們現在不確定你們後續的規劃跟進度如何補足人力如何把相關配套做好讓所有被服務被照顧的人都有意識到中間這個照專A個管他們其實承擔了非常大的工作量跟業務量\n\n5\n00:01:34,157 --> 00:01:56,343\n跟委員說明我們在6月10號其實也針對這些不管今天是照專還A的一些人力問題有找了縣市政府來討論我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面也針對照專必須要這個聘用要有兩年的長照工作年資這個部分在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年\n\n6\n00:01:56,963 --> 00:02:17,139\n那這個部分也是都跟地方政府已經有達成共識那他們就等於照專跟A拉起為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣的一個工作那對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁那可以讓有更多的人能夠投入這份工作所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格就有機會\n\n7\n00:02:20,562 --> 00:02:41,907\n讓更多人來應徵嗎可是你再看一下這張投影片的最下方叫做充實照顧人力確實我沒有想到照服員的勞動條件要調整然後或者是擴大外籍中階技術人力的禁用推動照顧分級派工這些我都非常認同確實可以改善現場的狀況但是我們卻沒有想到照顧人力這一端就是我剛說的\n\n8\n00:02:42,947 --> 00:03:03,124\n其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量那個是一般人沒有意識到的那我們如何調整可是我覺得剛剛你所說起來從兩年年資變成一年年資或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員勞動權益更有保障我覺得都可能還不足以\n\n9\n00:03:04,125 --> 00:03:29,787\n立刻改善現場的狀況先不管長照3.0上路之後那光是現在狀況我都還是很擔心那可不可以因為我時間有限我不要耽誤其他委員時間我想我的具體要求非常明確我要持續跟長照司討論我希望我們在座長照無縫接軌從病人出院要回到社區當中那個無縫接軌我們要必須同步確保照專跟A個管的量能是真的可以負荷的\n\n10\n00:03:30,467 --> 00:03:55,190\n否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊病人會抱怨醫院可能也會抱怨不要到最後所有的抱怨都到他們身上如同我剛剛說的我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略掉這一群人再來我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個館做開會討論聽取第一線基層人員的聲音當然有你們相關部會在我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性\n\n11\n00:03:56,321 --> 00:04:18,155\n有機會嗎我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎因為你請縣市政府的承辦加上中央的承辦但你沒有足夠第一線工作人員其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話他們在個案拜訪我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境\n\n12\n00:04:18,895 --> 00:04:34,924\n是我們其實邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心的這些照專照督那當然A的部分其實是因為是地方政府特約的單位所以是由地方政府所以你覺得不需要再召開相關意見都很夠了\n\n13\n00:04:35,644 --> 00:04:51,031\n因為所有的照專跟A個管全國的人數所加起來我沒有說找這麼多當然不可能我當然說不可能要你們招一個4千就像我們以前在教文我們要聽取基層教師的聲音我們有相關的工會或相關的團體或是地方政府邀請一些\n\n14\n00:04:51,591 --> 00:04:56,738\n願意參與公民社會服務發聲的基層工作人員那如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了那這樣沒關係你們會後把相關會議資料給我讓我確定一下你們真的有收集到足夠多的聲音反映現場的狀況那如果沒有我們後續再來討論好不好好\n\n15\n00:05:08,973 --> 00:05:29,719\n好謝謝我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情但是更多改善現場的狀況其實非常重要好接下來謝謝司長接下來請社家署我其實要我之前在跟社家署討論相關議題的時候就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分我們其實也經早過社家署開會那目前時間有限我就直接討論到下一個問題就是\n\n16\n00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:47,174\n第一個社會局處進行自立生活需求評估的時候相關法源依據其實這一次我在這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候我們就有跟社家屬積極的討論也有提醒你們對不對好那我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何第一個身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度\n\n17\n00:05:55,956 --> 00:06:21,221\n還有研議個人助理服務原則等相關文件我們之前有請你們帶回去研議我們不知道現在研議的進度是什麼跟委員報告那有關在自立生活需求評估的部分那我們應該也有我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論那我們在今年是在5月8號之後嗎對不起在5月8號之前之前好之前\n\n18\n00:06:21,801 --> 00:06:37,717\n那我們在跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論那我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立這個在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制那這個申請的機制裡面希望是這個申請的機制的人員包括了\n\n19\n00:06:38,678 --> 00:07:01,408\n學者專家那身心上的團體代表政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣的多元的一個去組成能夠去充分的去在個案評估他的需求的時候能夠有一個比較周延的認定我當時的質詢在5月8號的時候我是跟您請教說目前所有這些審查制度裡面我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見\n\n20\n00:07:02,068 --> 00:07:17,963\n因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣就是這樣就是這樣最後的結果他們好像也只能默默的接受沒有後續的救濟沒有後續相關的流程所以我們當時在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議\n\n21\n00:07:19,705 --> 00:07:33,316\n所以目前5月8號之後其實沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤對不對跟委員報告那之後針對這個我們沒有全面性的開會但是個別的縣市我們現在知道已經有部分的縣市我們跟縣市先開始做討論個別的縣市在做討論那怎麼樣去把這個讓\n\n22\n00:07:38,180 --> 00:08:06,249\n身心障礙者在審查會議的過程中能夠陳述意見的這個部分能夠去把它能夠納進來那已經有像台中的部分就我們所知應該是已經開始能夠開始做這樣的處理那後續其他縣市的部分我們會繼續的來做協調和推動那另外在於這個審核的結果的部分的時數即使是經過當事人的意見的陳述也許這個核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請可能還是會有一些落差\n\n23\n00:08:06,969 --> 00:08:34,863\n那這個部分的救濟那對不起我們我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的一個機制那當然他其實後續包括一般的這個行政救濟他都可以都可以來使用好那如果有你剛剛說這些資料我們會後再拜託你們提供給我們辦公室我們確保一下相關的進度還有其實之前有討論到現行的長照跨區可不可以從月份跨區進階到一週或是一日\n\n24\n00:08:35,323 --> 00:09:00,902\n提供跨区服务上次我有问到这个事情我不确定相关进度但时间有限你们可以再给我们后续的结论吗如果你们有进行相关会议的话好不好好谢谢下一张一样是社家属其实关于合理调整的部分我们也发现了很多问题而且这些问题可能还蛮棘手的第一个是合理调整的部分目前第一个问题是看卫福部的规划目前你们是要求这些机关自行\n\n25\n00:09:02,103 --> 00:09:17,577\n進行合理調整然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限我們目前其實看不到出來我不確定你們這邊進度是什麼針對合理調整的部分因為你們要機關自行進行\n\n26\n00:09:21,434 --> 00:09:45,459\n我們現在對於這個合理調整的部分我們現在有定一個各機關去定定合理調整一個職各機關去定指引的原則那給各個目的事業主管機關去定相關的合理調整的指引所以這個部分我們大概也有小協調各目的事業主管機關來怎麼樣去定他的一關一些合理調整的具體的做法\n\n27\n00:09:45,879 --> 00:10:12,689\n那這個部分的話怎麼樣去把這個裡面細節去納進去當然個別的場域它會有些個別的狀況的部分所以那個就是由各目的世界主管機關在它的指引出來然後讓各個場域去根據各自己的場域的狀況那是個別身心障礙者的需求來做相關的調整那衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了\n\n28\n00:10:13,169 --> 00:10:39,316\n有我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候我們在更上面有一個通案的原則那目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候相關進度或相關的問題屋府部這邊你都會提供協助嗎目前我們已知的像法務部勞動部都已經有相關人事行政總署都已經有\n\n29\n00:10:39,696 --> 00:11:02,022\n那教育部也在嚴定中這個我們會再跟你們說實在請你們告訴我們來第二個我想問一下目前草案上只有說合理調整可是假設機關沒有積極的動作或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例過度負擔那後續會有什麼結果你們這邊會如何協助因為過去我們在修特教法的時候我們就希望如果沒有合理調整他可能造成一種歧視\n\n30\n00:11:02,782 --> 00:11:14,579\n可是当时没有成功入法可是我认为在身障权法里面如果我们没有积极的态度我觉得其实是不合理的那如果我们后续还要修所谓的反歧视法我认为这个事情要一并考虑\n\n31\n00:11:17,077 --> 00:11:37,553\n目前我們在生權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去訂相關的救濟措施但是現行生權法裡面包括這個當事人去做相關申訴的制度在如果這個職場或者是相關場域裡面他做一個不到位的調整\n\n32\n00:11:39,434 --> 00:12:08,268\n或者是這個對於調整的幅度是不是有超過這個場域能夠負擔的程度等等那這個部分他還是可以依照生權法現有的這樣的一個申訴機制來做處理那另外如果是在這個合理調整的程度如果是達不到那當然如同剛才委員所提示的就是我們會配合行政院這邊現在在定的在嚴定中的反歧視法的部分那這個部分我們會併到這邊一起來做併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論\n\n33\n00:12:08,928 --> 00:12:37,445\n看起來是大工程我覺得時間有限我們就之後一起努力最後一個提問在特教法第10條第4項裡面規定中央主管機關要針對各個教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引可是目前特教法修法已經到現在兩年可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來我只想要追問後續的進度跟規劃就我們所知道目前教育部是在研擬中好那衛福部這邊協助他們我們會跟教育部這邊一起來配合你們有定一個bandline嗎因為其實已經兩年\n\n34\n00:12:41,133 --> 00:12:56,817\n困境會是什麼?這個部分的話,因為我們也會搭配這一次生權法的進度好,這就是我擔心,如果要搭配生權法當然後續我們修法進度要加快,否則其實這邊也會卡住我就一併先把問題提出來,好嗎?謝謝主席,不好意思超過時間,謝謝好,謝謝陳委員的詢問\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3220\t5527\t好 謝謝主席 那先請長照司 謝謝來 請祝市長\n14739\t43117\t委员好好 司长我想要快速跟您讨论关于照专的事情我上次已经来谈过因为我们看到长照3.0即将上路那我之前跟你讨论过他们的个案量其实远远超过这个相关数字当时你给我的回应是说我们有考虑要把照专从临时人员改为政府聘雇人员已经改了对 已经改了那可是我想要跟你说来长照3.0之后呢看一下目前我们有一个很重要的规划叫做医疗长照无缝接轨\n43937\t62877\t當我們要做到這件事情的時候我們其實需要第一線的照專協助我們對不對好這個您非常的清楚結果很多照專就立刻看到這個就非常緊張來跟我們澄清因為除了我們剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的那當然是因為很多人不願意來做這個工作那\n63217\t92357\t我們現在很擔心假設醫療長照無縫接軌在後續的推動上我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實而不是所有最後工作loading都落在照專跟A個管身上因為我們現在不確定你們後續的規劃跟進度如何補足人力如何把相關配套做好讓所有被服務被照顧的人都有意識到中間這個照專A個管他們其實承擔了非常大的工作量跟業務量\n94157\t116343\t跟委員說明我們在6月10號其實也針對這些不管今天是照專還A的一些人力問題有找了縣市政府來討論我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面也針對照專必須要這個聘用要有兩年的長照工作年資這個部分在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年\n116963\t137139\t那這個部分也是都跟地方政府已經有達成共識那他們就等於照專跟A拉起為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣的一個工作那對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁那可以讓有更多的人能夠投入這份工作所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格就有機會\n140562\t161907\t讓更多人來應徵嗎可是你再看一下這張投影片的最下方叫做充實照顧人力確實我沒有想到照服員的勞動條件要調整然後或者是擴大外籍中階技術人力的禁用推動照顧分級派工這些我都非常認同確實可以改善現場的狀況但是我們卻沒有想到照顧人力這一端就是我剛說的\n162947\t183124\t其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量那個是一般人沒有意識到的那我們如何調整可是我覺得剛剛你所說起來從兩年年資變成一年年資或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員勞動權益更有保障我覺得都可能還不足以\n184125\t209787\t立刻改善現場的狀況先不管長照3.0上路之後那光是現在狀況我都還是很擔心那可不可以因為我時間有限我不要耽誤其他委員時間我想我的具體要求非常明確我要持續跟長照司討論我希望我們在座長照無縫接軌從病人出院要回到社區當中那個無縫接軌我們要必須同步確保照專跟A個管的量能是真的可以負荷的\n210467\t235190\t否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊病人會抱怨醫院可能也會抱怨不要到最後所有的抱怨都到他們身上如同我剛剛說的我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略掉這一群人再來我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個館做開會討論聽取第一線基層人員的聲音當然有你們相關部會在我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性\n236321\t258155\t有機會嗎我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎因為你請縣市政府的承辦加上中央的承辦但你沒有足夠第一線工作人員其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話他們在個案拜訪我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境\n258895\t274924\t是我們其實邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心的這些照專照督那當然A的部分其實是因為是地方政府特約的單位所以是由地方政府所以你覺得不需要再召開相關意見都很夠了\n275644\t291031\t因為所有的照專跟A個管全國的人數所加起來我沒有說找這麼多當然不可能我當然說不可能要你們招一個4千就像我們以前在教文我們要聽取基層教師的聲音我們有相關的工會或相關的團體或是地方政府邀請一些\n291591\t296738\t願意參與公民社會服務發聲的基層工作人員那如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了那這樣沒關係你們會後把相關會議資料給我讓我確定一下你們真的有收集到足夠多的聲音反映現場的狀況那如果沒有我們後續再來討論好不好好\n308973\t329719\t好 謝謝我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情但是更多改善現場的狀況其實非常重要好 接下來謝謝司長接下來請社家署我其實要我之前在跟社家署討論相關議題的時候就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分我們其實也經早過社家署開會那目前時間有限我就直接討論到下一個問題就是\n331880\t347174\t第一個社會局處進行自立生活需求評估的時候相關法源依據其實這一次我在這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候我們就有跟社家屬積極的討論也有提醒你們對不對好那我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何第一個身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度\n355956\t381221\t還有研議個人助理服務原則等相關文件我們之前有請你們帶回去研議我們不知道現在研議的進度是什麼跟委員報告那有關在自立生活需求評估的部分那我們應該也有我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論那我們在今年是在5月8號之後嗎對不起在5月8號之前之前好之前\n381801\t397717\t那我們在跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論那我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立這個在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制那這個申請的機制裡面希望是這個申請的機制的人員包括了\n398678\t421408\t學者專家那身心上的團體代表政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣的多元的一個去組成能夠去充分的去在個案評估他的需求的時候能夠有一個比較周延的認定我當時的質詢在5月8號的時候我是跟您請教說目前所有這些審查制度裡面我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見\n422068\t437963\t因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣就是這樣就是這樣最後的結果他們好像也只能默默的接受沒有後續的救濟沒有後續相關的流程所以我們當時在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議\n439705\t453316\t所以目前5月8號之後其實沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤對不對跟委員報告那之後針對這個我們沒有全面性的開會但是個別的縣市我們現在知道已經有部分的縣市我們跟縣市先開始做討論個別的縣市在做討論那怎麼樣去把這個讓\n458180\t486249\t身心障礙者在審查會議的過程中能夠陳述意見的這個部分能夠去把它能夠納進來那已經有像台中的部分就我們所知應該是已經開始能夠開始做這樣的處理那後續其他縣市的部分我們會繼續的來做協調和推動那另外在於這個審核的結果的部分的時數即使是經過當事人的意見的陳述也許這個核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請可能還是會有一些落差\n486969\t514863\t那這個部分的救濟那對不起我們我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的一個機制那當然他其實後續包括一般的這個行政救濟他都可以都可以來使用好那如果有你剛剛說這些資料我們會後再拜託你們提供給我們辦公室我們確保一下相關的進度還有其實之前有討論到現行的長照跨區可不可以從月份跨區進階到一週或是一日\n515323\t540902\t提供跨区服务上次我有问到这个事情我不确定相关进度但时间有限你们可以再给我们后续的结论吗如果你们有进行相关会议的话好不好好谢谢下一张一样是社家属其实关于合理调整的部分我们也发现了很多问题而且这些问题可能还蛮棘手的第一个是合理调整的部分目前第一个问题是看卫福部的规划目前你们是要求这些机关自行\n542103\t557577\t進行合理調整然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限我們目前其實看不到出來我不確定你們這邊進度是什麼針對合理調整的部分因為你們要機關自行進行\n561434\t585459\t我們現在對於這個合理調整的部分我們現在有定一個各機關去定定合理調整一個職各機關去定指引的原則那給各個目的事業主管機關去定相關的合理調整的指引所以這個部分我們大概也有小協調各目的事業主管機關來怎麼樣去定他的一關一些合理調整的具體的做法\n585879\t612689\t那這個部分的話怎麼樣去把這個裡面細節去納進去當然個別的場域它會有些個別的狀況的部分所以那個就是由各目的世界主管機關在它的指引出來然後讓各個場域去根據各自己的場域的狀況那是個別身心障礙者的需求來做相關的調整那衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了\n613169\t639316\t有 我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候我們在更上面有一個通案的原則那目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候相關進度或相關的問題 屋府部這邊你都會提供協助嗎目前我們已知的像法務部 勞動部都已經有相關人事行政總署都已經有\n639696\t662022\t那教育部也在嚴定中這個我們會再跟你們說實在請你們告訴我們來第二個我想問一下目前草案上只有說合理調整可是假設機關沒有積極的動作或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例過度負擔那後續會有什麼結果你們這邊會如何協助因為過去我們在修特教法的時候我們就希望如果沒有合理調整他可能造成一種歧視\n662782\t674579\t可是当时没有成功入法可是我认为在身障权法里面如果我们没有积极的态度我觉得其实是不合理的那如果我们后续还要修所谓的反歧视法我认为这个事情要一并考虑\n677077\t697553\t目前我們在生權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去訂相關的救濟措施但是現行生權法裡面包括這個當事人去做相關申訴的制度在如果這個職場或者是相關場域裡面他做一個不到位的調整\n699434\t728268\t或者是這個對於調整的幅度是不是有超過這個場域能夠負擔的程度等等那這個部分他還是可以依照生權法現有的這樣的一個申訴機制來做處理那另外如果是在這個合理調整的程度如果是達不到那當然如同剛才委員所提示的就是我們會配合行政院這邊現在在定的在嚴定中的反歧視法的部分那這個部分我們會併到這邊一起來做併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論\n728928\t757445\t看起來是大工程我覺得時間有限我們就之後一起努力最後一個提問在特教法第10條第4項裡面規定中央主管機關要針對各個教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引可是目前特教法修法已經到現在兩年可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來我只想要追問後續的進度跟規劃就我們所知道目前教育部是在研擬中好那衛福部這邊協助他們我們會跟教育部這邊一起來配合你們有定一個bandline嗎因為其實已經兩年\n761133\t776817\t困境會是什麼?這個部分的話,因為我們也會搭配這一次生權法的進度好,這就是我擔心,如果要搭配生權法當然後續我們修法進度要加快,否則其實這邊也會卡住我就一併先把問題提出來,好嗎?謝謝主席,不好意思超過時間,謝謝好,謝謝陳委員的詢問\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那先請長照司 謝謝來 請祝市長\n委员好好 司长我想要快速跟您讨论关于照专的事情我上次已经来谈过因为我们看到长照3.0即将上路那我之前跟你讨论过他们的个案量其实远远超过这个相关数字当时你给我的回应是说我们有考虑要把照专从临时人员改为政府聘雇人员已经改了对 已经改了那可是我想要跟你说来长照3.0之后呢看一下目前我们有一个很重要的规划叫做医疗长照无缝接轨\n當我們要做到這件事情的時候我們其實需要第一線的照專協助我們對不對好這個您非常的清楚結果很多照專就立刻看到這個就非常緊張來跟我們澄清因為除了我們剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的那當然是因為很多人不願意來做這個工作那\n我們現在很擔心假設醫療長照無縫接軌在後續的推動上我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實而不是所有最後工作loading都落在照專跟A個管身上因為我們現在不確定你們後續的規劃跟進度如何補足人力如何把相關配套做好讓所有被服務被照顧的人都有意識到中間這個照專A個管他們其實承擔了非常大的工作量跟業務量\n跟委員說明我們在6月10號其實也針對這些不管今天是照專還A的一些人力問題有找了縣市政府來討論我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面也針對照專必須要這個聘用要有兩年的長照工作年資這個部分在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年\n那這個部分也是都跟地方政府已經有達成共識那他們就等於照專跟A拉起為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣的一個工作那對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁那可以讓有更多的人能夠投入這份工作所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格就有機會\n讓更多人來應徵嗎可是你再看一下這張投影片的最下方叫做充實照顧人力確實我沒有想到照服員的勞動條件要調整然後或者是擴大外籍中階技術人力的禁用推動照顧分級派工這些我都非常認同確實可以改善現場的狀況但是我們卻沒有想到照顧人力這一端就是我剛說的\n其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量那個是一般人沒有意識到的那我們如何調整可是我覺得剛剛你所說起來從兩年年資變成一年年資或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員勞動權益更有保障我覺得都可能還不足以\n立刻改善現場的狀況先不管長照3.0上路之後那光是現在狀況我都還是很擔心那可不可以因為我時間有限我不要耽誤其他委員時間我想我的具體要求非常明確我要持續跟長照司討論我希望我們在座長照無縫接軌從病人出院要回到社區當中那個無縫接軌我們要必須同步確保照專跟A個管的量能是真的可以負荷的\n否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊病人會抱怨醫院可能也會抱怨不要到最後所有的抱怨都到他們身上如同我剛剛說的我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略掉這一群人再來我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個館做開會討論聽取第一線基層人員的聲音當然有你們相關部會在我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性\n有機會嗎我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎因為你請縣市政府的承辦加上中央的承辦但你沒有足夠第一線工作人員其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話他們在個案拜訪我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境\n是我們其實邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心的這些照專照督那當然A的部分其實是因為是地方政府特約的單位所以是由地方政府所以你覺得不需要再召開相關意見都很夠了\n因為所有的照專跟A個管全國的人數所加起來我沒有說找這麼多當然不可能我當然說不可能要你們招一個4千就像我們以前在教文我們要聽取基層教師的聲音我們有相關的工會或相關的團體或是地方政府邀請一些\n願意參與公民社會服務發聲的基層工作人員那如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了那這樣沒關係你們會後把相關會議資料給我讓我確定一下你們真的有收集到足夠多的聲音反映現場的狀況那如果沒有我們後續再來討論好不好好\n好 謝謝我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情但是更多改善現場的狀況其實非常重要好 接下來謝謝司長接下來請社家署我其實要我之前在跟社家署討論相關議題的時候就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分我們其實也經早過社家署開會那目前時間有限我就直接討論到下一個問題就是\n第一個社會局處進行自立生活需求評估的時候相關法源依據其實這一次我在這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候我們就有跟社家屬積極的討論也有提醒你們對不對好那我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何第一個身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度\n還有研議個人助理服務原則等相關文件我們之前有請你們帶回去研議我們不知道現在研議的進度是什麼跟委員報告那有關在自立生活需求評估的部分那我們應該也有我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論那我們在今年是在5月8號之後嗎對不起在5月8號之前之前好之前\n那我們在跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論那我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立這個在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制那這個申請的機制裡面希望是這個申請的機制的人員包括了\n學者專家那身心上的團體代表政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣的多元的一個去組成能夠去充分的去在個案評估他的需求的時候能夠有一個比較周延的認定我當時的質詢在5月8號的時候我是跟您請教說目前所有這些審查制度裡面我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見\n因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣就是這樣就是這樣最後的結果他們好像也只能默默的接受沒有後續的救濟沒有後續相關的流程所以我們當時在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議\n所以目前5月8號之後其實沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤對不對跟委員報告那之後針對這個我們沒有全面性的開會但是個別的縣市我們現在知道已經有部分的縣市我們跟縣市先開始做討論個別的縣市在做討論那怎麼樣去把這個讓\n身心障礙者在審查會議的過程中能夠陳述意見的這個部分能夠去把它能夠納進來那已經有像台中的部分就我們所知應該是已經開始能夠開始做這樣的處理那後續其他縣市的部分我們會繼續的來做協調和推動那另外在於這個審核的結果的部分的時數即使是經過當事人的意見的陳述也許這個核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請可能還是會有一些落差\n那這個部分的救濟那對不起我們我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的一個機制那當然他其實後續包括一般的這個行政救濟他都可以都可以來使用好那如果有你剛剛說這些資料我們會後再拜託你們提供給我們辦公室我們確保一下相關的進度還有其實之前有討論到現行的長照跨區可不可以從月份跨區進階到一週或是一日\n提供跨区服务上次我有问到这个事情我不确定相关进度但时间有限你们可以再给我们后续的结论吗如果你们有进行相关会议的话好不好好谢谢下一张一样是社家属其实关于合理调整的部分我们也发现了很多问题而且这些问题可能还蛮棘手的第一个是合理调整的部分目前第一个问题是看卫福部的规划目前你们是要求这些机关自行\n進行合理調整然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限我們目前其實看不到出來我不確定你們這邊進度是什麼針對合理調整的部分因為你們要機關自行進行\n我們現在對於這個合理調整的部分我們現在有定一個各機關去定定合理調整一個職各機關去定指引的原則那給各個目的事業主管機關去定相關的合理調整的指引所以這個部分我們大概也有小協調各目的事業主管機關來怎麼樣去定他的一關一些合理調整的具體的做法\n那這個部分的話怎麼樣去把這個裡面細節去納進去當然個別的場域它會有些個別的狀況的部分所以那個就是由各目的世界主管機關在它的指引出來然後讓各個場域去根據各自己的場域的狀況那是個別身心障礙者的需求來做相關的調整那衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了\n有 我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候我們在更上面有一個通案的原則那目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候相關進度或相關的問題 屋府部這邊你都會提供協助嗎目前我們已知的像法務部 勞動部都已經有相關人事行政總署都已經有\n那教育部也在嚴定中這個我們會再跟你們說實在請你們告訴我們來第二個我想問一下目前草案上只有說合理調整可是假設機關沒有積極的動作或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例過度負擔那後續會有什麼結果你們這邊會如何協助因為過去我們在修特教法的時候我們就希望如果沒有合理調整他可能造成一種歧視\n可是当时没有成功入法可是我认为在身障权法里面如果我们没有积极的态度我觉得其实是不合理的那如果我们后续还要修所谓的反歧视法我认为这个事情要一并考虑\n目前我們在生權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去訂相關的救濟措施但是現行生權法裡面包括這個當事人去做相關申訴的制度在如果這個職場或者是相關場域裡面他做一個不到位的調整\n或者是這個對於調整的幅度是不是有超過這個場域能夠負擔的程度等等那這個部分他還是可以依照生權法現有的這樣的一個申訴機制來做處理那另外如果是在這個合理調整的程度如果是達不到那當然如同剛才委員所提示的就是我們會配合行政院這邊現在在定的在嚴定中的反歧視法的部分那這個部分我們會併到這邊一起來做併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論\n看起來是大工程我覺得時間有限我們就之後一起努力最後一個提問在特教法第10條第4項裡面規定中央主管機關要針對各個教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引可是目前特教法修法已經到現在兩年可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來我只想要追問後續的進度跟規劃就我們所知道目前教育部是在研擬中好那衛福部這邊協助他們我們會跟教育部這邊一起來配合你們有定一個bandline嗎因為其實已經兩年\n困境會是什麼?這個部分的話,因為我們也會搭配這一次生權法的進度好,這就是我擔心,如果要搭配生權法當然後續我們修法進度要加快,否則其實這邊也會卡住我就一併先把問題提出來,好嗎?謝謝主席,不好意思超過時間,謝謝好,謝謝陳委員的詢問\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.220 --> 00:05.527\n好謝謝主席那先請長照司謝謝來請祝市長\n\n00:14.739 --> 00:43.117\n委员好好司长我想要快速跟您讨论关于照专的事情我上次已经来谈过因为我们看到长照3.0即将上路那我之前跟你讨论过他们的个案量其实远远超过这个相关数字当时你给我的回应是说我们有考虑要把照专从临时人员改为政府聘雇人员已经改了对已经改了那可是我想要跟你说来长照3.0之后呢看一下目前我们有一个很重要的规划叫做医疗长照无缝接轨\n\n00:43.937 --> 01:02.877\n當我們要做到這件事情的時候我們其實需要第一線的照專協助我們對不對好這個您非常的清楚結果很多照專就立刻看到這個就非常緊張來跟我們澄清因為除了我們剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的那當然是因為很多人不願意來做這個工作那\n\n01:03.217 --> 01:32.357\n我們現在很擔心假設醫療長照無縫接軌在後續的推動上我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實而不是所有最後工作loading都落在照專跟A個管身上因為我們現在不確定你們後續的規劃跟進度如何補足人力如何把相關配套做好讓所有被服務被照顧的人都有意識到中間這個照專A個管他們其實承擔了非常大的工作量跟業務量\n\n01:34.157 --> 01:56.343\n跟委員說明我們在6月10號其實也針對這些不管今天是照專還A的一些人力問題有找了縣市政府來討論我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面也針對照專必須要這個聘用要有兩年的長照工作年資這個部分在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年\n\n01:56.963 --> 02:17.139\n那這個部分也是都跟地方政府已經有達成共識那他們就等於照專跟A拉起為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣的一個工作那對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁那可以讓有更多的人能夠投入這份工作所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格就有機會\n\n02:20.562 --> 02:41.907\n讓更多人來應徵嗎可是你再看一下這張投影片的最下方叫做充實照顧人力確實我沒有想到照服員的勞動條件要調整然後或者是擴大外籍中階技術人力的禁用推動照顧分級派工這些我都非常認同確實可以改善現場的狀況但是我們卻沒有想到照顧人力這一端就是我剛說的\n\n02:42.947 --> 03:03.124\n其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量那個是一般人沒有意識到的那我們如何調整可是我覺得剛剛你所說起來從兩年年資變成一年年資或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員勞動權益更有保障我覺得都可能還不足以\n\n03:04.125 --> 03:29.787\n立刻改善現場的狀況先不管長照3.0上路之後那光是現在狀況我都還是很擔心那可不可以因為我時間有限我不要耽誤其他委員時間我想我的具體要求非常明確我要持續跟長照司討論我希望我們在座長照無縫接軌從病人出院要回到社區當中那個無縫接軌我們要必須同步確保照專跟A個管的量能是真的可以負荷的\n\n03:30.467 --> 03:55.190\n否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊病人會抱怨醫院可能也會抱怨不要到最後所有的抱怨都到他們身上如同我剛剛說的我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略掉這一群人再來我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個館做開會討論聽取第一線基層人員的聲音當然有你們相關部會在我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性\n\n03:56.321 --> 04:18.155\n有機會嗎我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎因為你請縣市政府的承辦加上中央的承辦但你沒有足夠第一線工作人員其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話他們在個案拜訪我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境\n\n04:18.895 --> 04:34.924\n是我們其實邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心的這些照專照督那當然A的部分其實是因為是地方政府特約的單位所以是由地方政府所以你覺得不需要再召開相關意見都很夠了\n\n04:35.644 --> 04:51.031\n因為所有的照專跟A個管全國的人數所加起來我沒有說找這麼多當然不可能我當然說不可能要你們招一個4千就像我們以前在教文我們要聽取基層教師的聲音我們有相關的工會或相關的團體或是地方政府邀請一些\n\n04:51.591 --> 04:56.738\n願意參與公民社會服務發聲的基層工作人員那如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了那這樣沒關係你們會後把相關會議資料給我讓我確定一下你們真的有收集到足夠多的聲音反映現場的狀況那如果沒有我們後續再來討論好不好好\n\n05:08.973 --> 05:29.719\n好謝謝我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情但是更多改善現場的狀況其實非常重要好接下來謝謝司長接下來請社家署我其實要我之前在跟社家署討論相關議題的時候就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分我們其實也經早過社家署開會那目前時間有限我就直接討論到下一個問題就是\n\n05:31.880 --> 05:47.174\n第一個社會局處進行自立生活需求評估的時候相關法源依據其實這一次我在這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候我們就有跟社家屬積極的討論也有提醒你們對不對好那我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何第一個身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度\n\n05:55.956 --> 06:21.221\n還有研議個人助理服務原則等相關文件我們之前有請你們帶回去研議我們不知道現在研議的進度是什麼跟委員報告那有關在自立生活需求評估的部分那我們應該也有我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論那我們在今年是在5月8號之後嗎對不起在5月8號之前之前好之前\n\n06:21.801 --> 06:37.717\n那我們在跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論那我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立這個在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制那這個申請的機制裡面希望是這個申請的機制的人員包括了\n\n06:38.678 --> 07:01.408\n學者專家那身心上的團體代表政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣的多元的一個去組成能夠去充分的去在個案評估他的需求的時候能夠有一個比較周延的認定我當時的質詢在5月8號的時候我是跟您請教說目前所有這些審查制度裡面我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見\n\n07:02.068 --> 07:17.963\n因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣就是這樣就是這樣最後的結果他們好像也只能默默的接受沒有後續的救濟沒有後續相關的流程所以我們當時在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議\n\n07:19.705 --> 07:33.316\n所以目前5月8號之後其實沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤對不對跟委員報告那之後針對這個我們沒有全面性的開會但是個別的縣市我們現在知道已經有部分的縣市我們跟縣市先開始做討論個別的縣市在做討論那怎麼樣去把這個讓\n\n07:38.180 --> 08:06.249\n身心障礙者在審查會議的過程中能夠陳述意見的這個部分能夠去把它能夠納進來那已經有像台中的部分就我們所知應該是已經開始能夠開始做這樣的處理那後續其他縣市的部分我們會繼續的來做協調和推動那另外在於這個審核的結果的部分的時數即使是經過當事人的意見的陳述也許這個核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請可能還是會有一些落差\n\n08:06.969 --> 08:34.863\n那這個部分的救濟那對不起我們我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的一個機制那當然他其實後續包括一般的這個行政救濟他都可以都可以來使用好那如果有你剛剛說這些資料我們會後再拜託你們提供給我們辦公室我們確保一下相關的進度還有其實之前有討論到現行的長照跨區可不可以從月份跨區進階到一週或是一日\n\n08:35.323 --> 09:00.902\n提供跨区服务上次我有问到这个事情我不确定相关进度但时间有限你们可以再给我们后续的结论吗如果你们有进行相关会议的话好不好好谢谢下一张一样是社家属其实关于合理调整的部分我们也发现了很多问题而且这些问题可能还蛮棘手的第一个是合理调整的部分目前第一个问题是看卫福部的规划目前你们是要求这些机关自行\n\n09:02.103 --> 09:17.577\n進行合理調整然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限我們目前其實看不到出來我不確定你們這邊進度是什麼針對合理調整的部分因為你們要機關自行進行\n\n09:21.434 --> 09:45.459\n我們現在對於這個合理調整的部分我們現在有定一個各機關去定定合理調整一個職各機關去定指引的原則那給各個目的事業主管機關去定相關的合理調整的指引所以這個部分我們大概也有小協調各目的事業主管機關來怎麼樣去定他的一關一些合理調整的具體的做法\n\n09:45.879 --> 10:12.689\n那這個部分的話怎麼樣去把這個裡面細節去納進去當然個別的場域它會有些個別的狀況的部分所以那個就是由各目的世界主管機關在它的指引出來然後讓各個場域去根據各自己的場域的狀況那是個別身心障礙者的需求來做相關的調整那衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了\n\n10:13.169 --> 10:39.316\n有我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候我們在更上面有一個通案的原則那目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候相關進度或相關的問題屋府部這邊你都會提供協助嗎目前我們已知的像法務部勞動部都已經有相關人事行政總署都已經有\n\n10:39.696 --> 11:02.022\n那教育部也在嚴定中這個我們會再跟你們說實在請你們告訴我們來第二個我想問一下目前草案上只有說合理調整可是假設機關沒有積極的動作或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例過度負擔那後續會有什麼結果你們這邊會如何協助因為過去我們在修特教法的時候我們就希望如果沒有合理調整他可能造成一種歧視\n\n11:02.782 --> 11:14.579\n可是当时没有成功入法可是我认为在身障权法里面如果我们没有积极的态度我觉得其实是不合理的那如果我们后续还要修所谓的反歧视法我认为这个事情要一并考虑\n\n11:17.077 --> 11:37.553\n目前我們在生權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去訂相關的救濟措施但是現行生權法裡面包括這個當事人去做相關申訴的制度在如果這個職場或者是相關場域裡面他做一個不到位的調整\n\n11:39.434 --> 12:08.268\n或者是這個對於調整的幅度是不是有超過這個場域能夠負擔的程度等等那這個部分他還是可以依照生權法現有的這樣的一個申訴機制來做處理那另外如果是在這個合理調整的程度如果是達不到那當然如同剛才委員所提示的就是我們會配合行政院這邊現在在定的在嚴定中的反歧視法的部分那這個部分我們會併到這邊一起來做併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論\n\n12:08.928 --> 12:37.445\n看起來是大工程我覺得時間有限我們就之後一起努力最後一個提問在特教法第10條第4項裡面規定中央主管機關要針對各個教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引可是目前特教法修法已經到現在兩年可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來我只想要追問後續的進度跟規劃就我們所知道目前教育部是在研擬中好那衛福部這邊協助他們我們會跟教育部這邊一起來配合你們有定一個bandline嗎因為其實已經兩年\n\n12:41.133 --> 12:56.817\n困境會是什麼?這個部分的話,因為我們也會搭配這一次生權法的進度好,這就是我擔心,如果要搭配生權法當然後續我們修法進度要加快,否則其實這邊也會卡住我就一併先把問題提出來,好嗎?謝謝主席,不好意思超過時間,謝謝好,謝謝陳委員的詢問\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.22,"end":5.527,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那先請長照司 謝謝來 請祝市長"},{"start":14.739,"end":43.117,"text":"委员好好 司长我想要快速跟您讨论关于照专的事情我上次已经来谈过因为我们看到长照3.0即将上路那我之前跟你讨论过他们的个案量其实远远超过这个相关数字当时你给我的回应是说我们有考虑要把照专从临时人员改为政府聘雇人员已经改了对 已经改了那可是我想要跟你说来长照3.0之后呢看一下目前我们有一个很重要的规划叫做医疗长照无缝接轨"},{"start":43.937,"end":62.877,"text":"當我們要做到這件事情的時候我們其實需要第一線的照專協助我們對不對好這個您非常的清楚結果很多照專就立刻看到這個就非常緊張來跟我們澄清因為除了我們剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的那當然是因為很多人不願意來做這個工作那"},{"start":63.217,"end":92.357,"text":"我們現在很擔心假設醫療長照無縫接軌在後續的推動上我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實而不是所有最後工作loading都落在照專跟A個管身上因為我們現在不確定你們後續的規劃跟進度如何補足人力如何把相關配套做好讓所有被服務被照顧的人都有意識到中間這個照專A個管他們其實承擔了非常大的工作量跟業務量"},{"start":94.157,"end":116.343,"text":"跟委員說明我們在6月10號其實也針對這些不管今天是照專還A的一些人力問題有找了縣市政府來討論我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面也針對照專必須要這個聘用要有兩年的長照工作年資這個部分在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年"},{"start":116.963,"end":137.139,"text":"那這個部分也是都跟地方政府已經有達成共識那他們就等於照專跟A拉起為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣的一個工作那對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁那可以讓有更多的人能夠投入這份工作所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格就有機會"},{"start":140.562,"end":161.907,"text":"讓更多人來應徵嗎可是你再看一下這張投影片的最下方叫做充實照顧人力確實我沒有想到照服員的勞動條件要調整然後或者是擴大外籍中階技術人力的禁用推動照顧分級派工這些我都非常認同確實可以改善現場的狀況但是我們卻沒有想到照顧人力這一端就是我剛說的"},{"start":162.947,"end":183.124,"text":"其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量那個是一般人沒有意識到的那我們如何調整可是我覺得剛剛你所說起來從兩年年資變成一年年資或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員勞動權益更有保障我覺得都可能還不足以"},{"start":184.125,"end":209.787,"text":"立刻改善現場的狀況先不管長照3.0上路之後那光是現在狀況我都還是很擔心那可不可以因為我時間有限我不要耽誤其他委員時間我想我的具體要求非常明確我要持續跟長照司討論我希望我們在座長照無縫接軌從病人出院要回到社區當中那個無縫接軌我們要必須同步確保照專跟A個管的量能是真的可以負荷的"},{"start":210.467,"end":235.19,"text":"否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊病人會抱怨醫院可能也會抱怨不要到最後所有的抱怨都到他們身上如同我剛剛說的我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略掉這一群人再來我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個館做開會討論聽取第一線基層人員的聲音當然有你們相關部會在我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性"},{"start":236.321,"end":258.155,"text":"有機會嗎我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎因為你請縣市政府的承辦加上中央的承辦但你沒有足夠第一線工作人員其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話他們在個案拜訪我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境"},{"start":258.895,"end":274.924,"text":"是我們其實邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心的這些照專照督那當然A的部分其實是因為是地方政府特約的單位所以是由地方政府所以你覺得不需要再召開相關意見都很夠了"},{"start":275.644,"end":291.031,"text":"因為所有的照專跟A個管全國的人數所加起來我沒有說找這麼多當然不可能我當然說不可能要你們招一個4千就像我們以前在教文我們要聽取基層教師的聲音我們有相關的工會或相關的團體或是地方政府邀請一些"},{"start":291.591,"end":296.738,"text":"願意參與公民社會服務發聲的基層工作人員那如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了那這樣沒關係你們會後把相關會議資料給我讓我確定一下你們真的有收集到足夠多的聲音反映現場的狀況那如果沒有我們後續再來討論好不好好"},{"start":308.973,"end":329.719,"text":"好 謝謝我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情但是更多改善現場的狀況其實非常重要好 接下來謝謝司長接下來請社家署我其實要我之前在跟社家署討論相關議題的時候就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分我們其實也經早過社家署開會那目前時間有限我就直接討論到下一個問題就是"},{"start":331.88,"end":347.174,"text":"第一個社會局處進行自立生活需求評估的時候相關法源依據其實這一次我在這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候我們就有跟社家屬積極的討論也有提醒你們對不對好那我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何第一個身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度"},{"start":355.956,"end":381.221,"text":"還有研議個人助理服務原則等相關文件我們之前有請你們帶回去研議我們不知道現在研議的進度是什麼跟委員報告那有關在自立生活需求評估的部分那我們應該也有我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論那我們在今年是在5月8號之後嗎對不起在5月8號之前之前好之前"},{"start":381.801,"end":397.717,"text":"那我們在跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論那我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立這個在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制那這個申請的機制裡面希望是這個申請的機制的人員包括了"},{"start":398.678,"end":421.408,"text":"學者專家那身心上的團體代表政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣的多元的一個去組成能夠去充分的去在個案評估他的需求的時候能夠有一個比較周延的認定我當時的質詢在5月8號的時候我是跟您請教說目前所有這些審查制度裡面我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見"},{"start":422.068,"end":437.963,"text":"因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣就是這樣就是這樣最後的結果他們好像也只能默默的接受沒有後續的救濟沒有後續相關的流程所以我們當時在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議"},{"start":439.705,"end":453.316,"text":"所以目前5月8號之後其實沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤對不對跟委員報告那之後針對這個我們沒有全面性的開會但是個別的縣市我們現在知道已經有部分的縣市我們跟縣市先開始做討論個別的縣市在做討論那怎麼樣去把這個讓"},{"start":458.18,"end":486.249,"text":"身心障礙者在審查會議的過程中能夠陳述意見的這個部分能夠去把它能夠納進來那已經有像台中的部分就我們所知應該是已經開始能夠開始做這樣的處理那後續其他縣市的部分我們會繼續的來做協調和推動那另外在於這個審核的結果的部分的時數即使是經過當事人的意見的陳述也許這個核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請可能還是會有一些落差"},{"start":486.969,"end":514.863,"text":"那這個部分的救濟那對不起我們我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的一個機制那當然他其實後續包括一般的這個行政救濟他都可以都可以來使用好那如果有你剛剛說這些資料我們會後再拜託你們提供給我們辦公室我們確保一下相關的進度還有其實之前有討論到現行的長照跨區可不可以從月份跨區進階到一週或是一日"},{"start":515.323,"end":540.902,"text":"提供跨区服务上次我有问到这个事情我不确定相关进度但时间有限你们可以再给我们后续的结论吗如果你们有进行相关会议的话好不好好谢谢下一张一样是社家属其实关于合理调整的部分我们也发现了很多问题而且这些问题可能还蛮棘手的第一个是合理调整的部分目前第一个问题是看卫福部的规划目前你们是要求这些机关自行"},{"start":542.103,"end":557.577,"text":"進行合理調整然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限我們目前其實看不到出來我不確定你們這邊進度是什麼針對合理調整的部分因為你們要機關自行進行"},{"start":561.434,"end":585.459,"text":"我們現在對於這個合理調整的部分我們現在有定一個各機關去定定合理調整一個職各機關去定指引的原則那給各個目的事業主管機關去定相關的合理調整的指引所以這個部分我們大概也有小協調各目的事業主管機關來怎麼樣去定他的一關一些合理調整的具體的做法"},{"start":585.879,"end":612.689,"text":"那這個部分的話怎麼樣去把這個裡面細節去納進去當然個別的場域它會有些個別的狀況的部分所以那個就是由各目的世界主管機關在它的指引出來然後讓各個場域去根據各自己的場域的狀況那是個別身心障礙者的需求來做相關的調整那衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了"},{"start":613.169,"end":639.316,"text":"有 我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候我們在更上面有一個通案的原則那目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候相關進度或相關的問題 屋府部這邊你都會提供協助嗎目前我們已知的像法務部 勞動部都已經有相關人事行政總署都已經有"},{"start":639.696,"end":662.022,"text":"那教育部也在嚴定中這個我們會再跟你們說實在請你們告訴我們來第二個我想問一下目前草案上只有說合理調整可是假設機關沒有積極的動作或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例過度負擔那後續會有什麼結果你們這邊會如何協助因為過去我們在修特教法的時候我們就希望如果沒有合理調整他可能造成一種歧視"},{"start":662.782,"end":674.579,"text":"可是当时没有成功入法可是我认为在身障权法里面如果我们没有积极的态度我觉得其实是不合理的那如果我们后续还要修所谓的反歧视法我认为这个事情要一并考虑"},{"start":677.077,"end":697.553,"text":"目前我們在生權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去訂相關的救濟措施但是現行生權法裡面包括這個當事人去做相關申訴的制度在如果這個職場或者是相關場域裡面他做一個不到位的調整"},{"start":699.434,"end":728.268,"text":"或者是這個對於調整的幅度是不是有超過這個場域能夠負擔的程度等等那這個部分他還是可以依照生權法現有的這樣的一個申訴機制來做處理那另外如果是在這個合理調整的程度如果是達不到那當然如同剛才委員所提示的就是我們會配合行政院這邊現在在定的在嚴定中的反歧視法的部分那這個部分我們會併到這邊一起來做併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論"},{"start":728.928,"end":757.445,"text":"看起來是大工程我覺得時間有限我們就之後一起努力最後一個提問在特教法第10條第4項裡面規定中央主管機關要針對各個教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引可是目前特教法修法已經到現在兩年可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來我只想要追問後續的進度跟規劃就我們所知道目前教育部是在研擬中好那衛福部這邊協助他們我們會跟教育部這邊一起來配合你們有定一個bandline嗎因為其實已經兩年"},{"start":761.133,"end":776.817,"text":"困境會是什麼?這個部分的話,因為我們也會搭配這一次生權法的進度好,這就是我擔心,如果要搭配生權法當然後續我們修法進度要加快,否則其實這邊也會卡住我就一併先把問題提出來,好嗎?謝謝主席,不好意思超過時間,謝謝好,謝謝陳委員的詢問"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1029,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時21分）謝謝主席。先請長照司，謝謝。"],["主席：請祝司長。"],["祝司長健芳：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：司長，我想要快速跟您討論關於照專的事情，我上次已經來談過，因為我們看到長照3.0即將上路，我之前有跟你討論過他們的個案量其實遠遠超過這個相關數字，當時你給我的回應是，我們有考慮要把照專從臨時人員改為政府聘僱人員。"],["祝司長健芳：已經改了。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，已經改了。可是我想跟你說，長照3.0之後，目前我們有一個很重要的規劃叫做醫療長照無縫接軌，當我們要做到這件事情的時候，我們其實需要第一線的照專協助我們對不對？好，這個您非常的清楚，結果很多照專看到這個就非常緊張，立刻來跟我們陳情，因為除了我們剛剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外，其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的，當然是有很多人不願意來做這個工作，我們現在很擔心，假設醫療長照無縫接軌，在後續的推動上，我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實？而不是最後所有工作loading都落在照專跟A個管身上。因為我們現在不確定你們後續的規劃跟進度，如何補足人力、如何把相關配套做好，讓所有被服務、被照顧的人都有意識到中間這個照專、A個管他們其實承擔非常大的工作量跟業務量。"],["祝司長健芳：跟委員說明，我們在6月10號其實也針對不管是照專還是A的人力問題，有找了縣市政府來討論，我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面，也針對照專的聘用必須要有兩年長照工作年資這個部分，在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年，這個部分也都跟地方政府已經有達成共識，等於照專跟A拉齊為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣一個工作，對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁，可以讓更多的人能夠投入這份工作。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格，就有機會讓更多人來應徵嗎？可是你再看一下這張投影片最下方叫做充實照顧人力，確實我們有想到照服員的勞動條件要調整，或者是擴大外籍中階技術人力的進用，推動照顧分級派工，這些我都非常認同，確實可以改善現場的狀況，但是我們卻沒有想到照顧人力這一端，就是我剛剛說的，其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量，那個是一般人沒有意識到的，那我們如何調整？可是我覺得剛剛你所說的從兩年年資變成一年年資，或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員，勞動權益更有保障，我覺得都可能還不足以立刻改善現場的狀況，先不管長照3.0上路之後，光是現在的狀況，我都還是很擔心。因為我時間有限，我不要耽誤其他委員時間，我想我的具體要求非常明確，我要持續跟長照司討論，我希望我們在做長照無縫接軌，從病人出院要回到社區當中那個無縫接軌，我們必須同步確保照專跟A個管的量能是真的可以負荷的，否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊，病人會抱怨，醫院可能也會抱怨，不要到最後所有抱怨都到他們身上，如同我剛剛說的，我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略到這一群人。再來，我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個管開會討論，聽取第一線基層人員的聲音？當然有你們相關部會在，我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性，有機會嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題開過會。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎？因為你請縣市政府的承辦，加上中央的承辦，但你沒有足夠的第一線工作人員，其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話、他們在個案拜訪，我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境。"],["祝司長健芳：是。我們邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心這些照專、照督，當然A的部分因為是地方政府特約的單位，所以是由地方政府……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你覺得不需要再召開，相關意見都很夠了？"],["祝司長健芳：因為所有的照專跟A個管，全國的人數加起來有四千多人。"],["陳委員培瑜：我沒有說找這麼多人，當然不可能，我當然不可能要你們找這麼多人來，就像我們以前在教文，我們要聽取基層教師的聲音，我們有相關的工會或相關的團體，或是地方政府有邀請一些願意參與公民社會服務的基層工作人員，如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了，那這樣，沒關係，你們會後把相關會議資料給我。"],["祝司長健芳：是，好。"],["陳委員培瑜：讓我確定一下你們真的有蒐集到足夠多的聲音，反映現場的狀況，如果沒有，我們後續再來討論，好不好？"],["祝司長健芳：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝，我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情，但是更多改善現場狀況其實非常重要。謝謝司長。","接下來請社家署，我之前在跟社家署討論相關議題的時候，就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分，我們其實已經找過社家署開會，因為時間有限，我就直接討論到下一個問題。第一個，社會局處進行自立生活需求評估時候的相關法源依據，其實這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候就有跟社家署積極討論，也有提醒你們，對不對？"],["周代理署長道君：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何？第一個，身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度，還有研議個人助理服務原則的相關文件，我們之前有請你們帶回去研議，不知道現在研議的進度是什麼。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，有關自立生活需求評估的部分，我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論，在今年……"],["陳委員培瑜：是在5月8號之後嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：對不起，在5月8號之前。"],["陳委員培瑜：之前？好。"],["周代理署長道君：是在之前，我們跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論，我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制，這個申請的機制裡面希望申請機制的人員包括學者專家、身心障礙團體代表、政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣多元的組成，能夠充分地在個案評估需求的時候有一個比較周延的認定。"],["陳委員培瑜：我在5月8號的質詢是跟您請教說，目前所有這些審查制度裡面，我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見，因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣、就是這樣、就是這樣，最後的結果他們好像也只能默默地接受，沒有後續的救濟、沒有後續相關的流程，所以我們在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議，如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議，所以5月8號之後，其實並沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤，對不對？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，之後針對這部分我們沒有全面性的開會，但是個別的縣市，我們現在知道已經有跟部分個別縣市開始討論，怎麼樣讓身心障礙者在審查會議過程中能夠陳述意見這個部分能夠納進來，像臺中，就我們所知應該是已經能夠開始做這樣的處理，後續其他縣市的部分，我們會繼續協調和推動。另外在審核結果部分的時數，即使是經過當事人的意見陳述，也許核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請還是會有一些落差，這個部分的救濟，我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的機制，當然後續包括一般的行政救濟，他都可以使用。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果有你剛剛說的這些資料，會後再拜託提供給我們辦公室，我們確保一下相關的進度。還有之前有討論到現行的長照跨區，可不可以從月份跨區進階到以週或是以日提供跨區服務？上次我有問到這個事情，我不確定相關進度，但時間有限，你們可以再給我們後續的結論嗎？如果你們有進行相關會議的話，好不好？謝謝。"],["周代理署長道君：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來一樣是社家署，其實關於合理調整的部分，我們也發現了很多問題，而且這些問題可能還蠻棘手的。關於合理調整的部分，第一個問題是看衛福部的規劃，目前你們是要求這些機關自行進行合理調整，然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限，我們目前其實看不大出來，我不確定你們這邊的進度是什麼。"],["周代理署長道君：針對合理調整的部分，目前……"],["陳委員培瑜：因為你們要機關自行進行。"],["周代理署長道君：是。我們對於合理調整的部分，現在是各機關去訂指引的原則，給各個目的事業主管機關去訂相關的合理調整的指引。所以這個部分，我們大概也有協調各目的事業主管機關怎麼樣去訂它的一些合理調整的具體作法，這個部分的話，怎麼樣去把裡面的細節納進去，當然，個別的場域會有一些個別狀況的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["周代理署長道君：那個就是由各目的事業主管機關在它的指引出來，然後讓各個場域去根據自己場域的狀況，視個別身心障礙者的需求做相關的調整。"],["陳委員培瑜：衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引，讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了？"],["周代理署長道君：有，我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則，就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候，我們在更上面有一個通案的原則。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候，相關進度或相關的問題，衛福部這邊也都會提供協助嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：目前我們已知的，像法務部、勞動部、人事行政總處都已經有了，教育部也在研訂中。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個我們會再跟你們索資，再請你們告訴我們。第二個，我想問目前草案上只有說合理調整，可是假設機關沒有積極動作，或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例、過度負擔，後續會有什麼結果？你們會如何協助？因為過去在修特教法的時候，我們就希望如果沒有合理調整，它可能造成一種歧視，當時沒有成功入法，可是我認為在身障權法裡面，如果我們沒有積極的態度，我覺得其實是不合理的，如果我們後續還要修所謂的反歧視法，我認為這個事情要一併考慮。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，目前我們在身權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去固定相關的救濟措施，但是現行身權法裡面包括當事人去做相關申訴的制度，如果在職場或相關場域裡面，它做一個不到位的調整，或者是對於調整的幅度是不是有超過場域能夠負擔的程度等等，這個部分他還是可以依照身權法現有的申訴機制來做處理。另外，如果合理調整的程度是達不到，當然如同剛剛委員所提示的，我們會配合行政院現在在研訂中的反歧視法，這個部分我們會併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：看起來是大工程，我覺得時間有限，我們就之後一起努力。","最後一個提問，在特教法第十條第四項規定，中央主管機關應針對各教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引。可是特教法修法到現在已經兩年，可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來，我只是想要追問後續的進度跟規劃。"],["周代理署長道君：就我們所知道，目前教育部是在研擬中。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那衛福部如何協助他們？"],["周代理署長道君：進度的部分，我們會跟教育部一起來配合。"],["陳委員培瑜：你們有訂一個deadline嗎？因為其實已經兩年了，困境會是什麼？"],["周代理署長道君：這個部分我們也會搭配這一次身權法的進度跟教育部一起來做協調。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這就是我擔心，如果要搭配身權法，當然後續我們修法進度要加快，否則這邊也會卡住，我就一併先把問題提出來，好嗎？","謝謝主席，不好意思超過時間，謝謝。"],["周代理署長道君：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員的詢答，謝謝代理署長。","委員會在這邊報告：我們的聽打員還有手語員可以先用餐沒關係，但是我知道你們的手都要動，因為我們委員會會開到所有委員詢答完畢，我怕你們第一次來會嚇到，因為這邊是血汗型的，你們可以先用餐，應該還有剩下3位委員，所以再請各位委員控制時間，抱歉！","接下來請蔡易餘委員。蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","請范雲委員來做詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}}