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0.893}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 50.448, \"end\": 50.568, \"score\": 0.611}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 50.568, \"end\": 50.768, \"score\": 0.618}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"暴\", \"start\": 50.768, \"end\": 50.909, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"露\", \"start\": 50.909, \"end\": 51.669, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 51.669, \"end\": 52.03, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 52.03, \"end\": 52.25, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 52.25, \"end\": 52.69, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 52.69, \"end\": 52.971, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 52.971, \"end\": 53.111, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 53.111, \"end\": 53.311, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"康\", \"start\": 53.311, \"end\": 54.092, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 54.092, \"end\": 54.472, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 54.472, \"end\": 54.993, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 54.993, \"end\": 55.353, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 55.353, \"end\": 55.713, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 55.713, \"end\": 55.954, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 55.954, \"end\": 56.154, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 56.154, \"end\": 56.294, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 56.294, \"end\": 56.694, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"置\", \"start\": 56.694, \"end\": 56.795, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 56.795, \"end\": 57.295, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 57.295, \"end\": 57.535, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 57.535, \"end\": 57.655, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 57.655, \"end\": 57.776, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 57.776, \"end\": 58.016, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"座\", \"start\": 58.016, \"end\": 58.256, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 58.256, \"end\": 58.296, \"score\": 0.013}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 58.296, \"end\": 58.416, \"score\": 0.58}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 58.416, \"end\": 58.436, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 58.436, \"end\": 58.817, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 58.817, \"end\": 58.937, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 58.937, \"end\": 59.057, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 59.057, \"end\": 59.177, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 59.177, \"end\": 59.197, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 59.197, \"end\": 59.237, \"score\": 0.282}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 59.237, \"end\": 59.257, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"繁\", \"start\": 59.257, \"end\": 59.277, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"忙\", \"start\": 59.277, \"end\": 59.297, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 66.024, \"end\": 83.365, \"text\": \"那我再說再加上柯文哲當市長的時候他在台北市設了三站地方政府桃園市台東市也各設一站所以整個台灣目前僅僅只有11個固定交通車站對比台灣的交通狀況其實是很不夠的市長你有掌握這個資訊嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 66.024, \"end\": 66.184, \"score\": 0.645}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 66.184, \"end\": 66.324, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 66.324, \"end\": 66.665, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 66.665, \"end\": 66.845, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 66.845, \"end\": 67.045, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 67.045, \"end\": 67.226, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"柯\", \"start\": 67.226, \"end\": 67.386, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 67.386, \"end\": 67.506, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"哲\", \"start\": 67.506, \"end\": 67.866, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 67.866, \"end\": 68.067, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 68.067, \"end\": 68.447, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 68.447, \"end\": 68.567, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 68.567, \"end\": 68.707, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 68.707, \"end\": 68.888, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 68.888, \"end\": 69.048, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"北\", \"start\": 69.048, \"end\": 69.188, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 69.188, \"end\": 69.528, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 69.528, \"end\": 69.689, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 69.689, \"end\": 69.969, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 69.969, \"end\": 70.53, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 70.53, \"end\": 70.63, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 70.63, 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0.853}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 79.28, \"end\": 79.561, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 79.561, \"end\": 79.721, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 79.721, \"end\": 79.841, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 79.841, \"end\": 80.702, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 80.702, \"end\": 81.103, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 81.103, \"end\": 81.623, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 81.623, \"end\": 81.944, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 81.944, \"end\": 82.344, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 82.344, \"end\": 82.765, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 82.765, \"end\": 83.005, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 83.005, \"end\": 83.105, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 83.105, \"end\": 83.205, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"掌\", \"start\": 83.205, \"end\": 83.345, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"握\", \"start\": 83.345, \"end\": 83.365, \"score\": 0.14}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 84.747, \"end\": 102.477, \"text\": \"好那這樣就是說不但是不夠而且我跟市長這個說明一下這個分佈很不均目前環境部設置的固定交通側站雙北加上桃園有四座高雄有兩座從新竹到台南地區甚至一座都沒有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 84.747, \"end\": 85.067, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 85.067, \"end\": 85.267, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 85.267, \"end\": 85.507, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 85.507, \"end\": 85.948, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 85.948, \"end\": 86.088, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 86.088, \"end\": 86.308, \"score\": 0.614}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 86.308, \"end\": 86.448, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 86.448, \"end\": 86.748, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 86.748, \"end\": 86.868, \"score\": 0.611}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 86.868, \"end\": 87.088, \"score\": 0.631}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 87.088, \"end\": 87.248, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 87.248, \"end\": 87.929, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 87.929, \"end\": 88.989, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 88.989, \"end\": 89.169, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 89.169, \"end\": 89.189, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 89.189, \"end\": 89.63, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 89.63, \"end\": 89.99, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"佈\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 89.99, \"end\": 90.23, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 90.23, \"end\": 90.39, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"均\", \"start\": 90.39, \"end\": 91.371, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 91.371, \"end\": 91.531, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 91.531, \"end\": 91.891, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 91.891, \"end\": 92.011, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 92.011, \"end\": 92.371, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"置\", \"start\": 92.371, \"end\": 92.451, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 92.451, \"end\": 92.611, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"固\", \"start\": 92.611, \"end\": 92.791, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 92.791, \"end\": 93.052, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 93.052, \"end\": 93.352, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 93.352, \"end\": 93.852, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"側\"}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 93.852, \"end\": 94.632, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"雙\"}, {\"word\": \"北\", \"start\": 94.632, \"end\": 95.373, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 95.373, \"end\": 95.553, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 95.553, \"end\": 95.733, \"score\": 0.513}, {\"word\": \"桃\", \"start\": 95.733, \"end\": 96.033, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 96.033, \"end\": 96.253, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 96.253, \"end\": 96.473, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"座\", \"start\": 96.473, \"end\": 97.274, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 97.274, \"end\": 97.514, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"雄\", \"start\": 97.514, \"end\": 97.714, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 97.714, \"end\": 98.114, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"座\", \"start\": 98.114, \"end\": 99.075, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 99.075, \"end\": 99.335, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"竹\", \"start\": 99.335, \"end\": 99.515, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 99.515, \"end\": 99.675, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 99.675, \"end\": 99.815, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"南\", \"start\": 99.815, \"end\": 99.975, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 99.975, \"end\": 100.295, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 100.295, \"end\": 100.516, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 100.516, \"end\": 100.776, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 100.776, \"end\": 101.196, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"座\", \"start\": 101.196, \"end\": 101.616, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 101.616, \"end\": 101.996, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 101.996, \"end\": 102.457, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 102.457, \"end\": 102.477, \"score\": 0.128}]}, {\"start\": 103.277, \"end\": 126.62, \"text\": \"但是台灣西半部幾乎每個縣市在交通尖峰的時間都會有塞車問題那麼行人加上機車族每天上下班塞在那個車鎮中民眾都會長時間暴露在可能的這個致癌的空氣污染中但是目前卻只有北高受到比較多的關注那其他縣市好像就淪為次等公民了那請問次長你覺得你要承諾做這個改善嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 103.277, \"end\": 103.397, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 103.397, \"end\": 103.517, \"score\": 0.558}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 103.517, \"end\": 103.818, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 103.818, \"end\": 104.018, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"半\", \"start\": 104.018, \"end\": 104.178, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 104.178, \"end\": 104.458, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"乎\", \"start\": 104.458, \"end\": 104.558, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 104.558, \"end\": 104.999, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 104.999, \"end\": 105.139, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 105.139, \"end\": 105.279, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 105.279, \"end\": 105.419, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 105.419, \"end\": 105.559, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"尖\", \"start\": 105.559, \"end\": 105.76, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"峰\", \"start\": 105.76, \"end\": 105.92, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 105.92, \"end\": 106.701, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 106.701, \"end\": 106.881, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 106.881, \"end\": 107.041, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"塞\", \"start\": 107.041, \"end\": 108.122, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 108.122, \"end\": 108.402, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 108.402, \"end\": 108.582, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 108.582, \"end\": 108.823, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 108.823, \"end\": 109.023, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 109.023, \"end\": 109.904, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"族\", \"start\": 109.904, \"end\": 110.324, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 651.553, \"end\": 651.693, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 651.693, \"end\": 651.793, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 651.793, \"end\": 652.013, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"失\", \"start\": 652.013, \"end\": 652.893, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 652.893, \"end\": 653.013, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 653.013, \"end\": 653.213, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 653.213, \"end\": 653.353, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 653.353, \"end\": 653.533, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 653.533, \"end\": 654.294, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 654.294, \"end\": 654.454, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 654.454, \"end\": 655.394, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 655.394, \"end\": 655.574, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 655.574, \"end\": 656.134, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 656.134, \"end\": 656.154, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:06,701\n謝謝主席有請次長來次長\n\n2\n00:00:14,261 --> 00:00:28,111\n市長部長在5月12號行政院會時有提到移動污染源的污染量已經超過了固定污染源的污染量他提到這個事那我們延續這個基礎我想跟環境部討論空氣品質監測在眾多種類還有很多種類當中的交通空氣品質監測的問題那有關中央設置的固定的交通空氣品質監測在當初環境部是選擇在交通流量\n\n3\n00:00:43,541 --> 00:00:59,297\n向繁忙的路口希望他能夠如實去反映這個污染源對於行人還有用路人的一個暴露狀態來保護提醒這個民眾的健康但是我現在了解中央設置的監測站只有六座那請問次長台灣難道只有這六處是交通繁忙區嗎\n\n4\n00:01:06,024 --> 00:01:23,365\n那我再說再加上柯文哲當市長的時候他在台北市設了三站地方政府桃園市台東市也各設一站所以整個台灣目前僅僅只有11個固定交通車站對比台灣的交通狀況其實是很不夠的市長你有掌握這個資訊嗎\n\n5\n00:01:24,747 --> 00:01:42,477\n好那這樣就是說不但是不夠而且我跟市長這個說明一下這個分佈很不均目前環境部設置的固定交通側站雙北加上桃園有四座高雄有兩座從新竹到台南地區甚至一座都沒有\n\n6\n00:01:43,277 --> 00:02:06,620\n但是台灣西半部幾乎每個縣市在交通尖峰的時間都會有塞車問題那麼行人加上機車族每天上下班塞在那個車鎮中民眾都會長時間暴露在可能的這個致癌的空氣污染中但是目前卻只有北高受到比較多的關注那其他縣市好像就淪為次等公民了那請問次長你覺得你要承諾做這個改善嗎\n\n7\n00:02:07,816 --> 00:02:33,827\n是跟委員報告的確委員所講的數字都對剛剛的提出的這個指教就是我們的全國空氣品質的先車站中央有70%站地方有34站但是如果以專屬的交通車站來講只有11站確實是有不足可是過去的空氣污染管制我們是從工廠慢慢的逐步到現在我們已經把交通的當作是比較\n\n8\n00:02:34,127 --> 00:03:00,660\n既然您今天的報告0.1嘛所要來源是交通來源那我們就開始要在這邊加強交通是要被注意的請部長看這個圖看左邊這張圖這是新北市永和的交通空品車站它離地是3公尺那就在人行道旁邊的另外右邊這張是頂樓的一般車站離地大概12公尺以上我想請問次長哪一個可以真正反映交通族通勤族吸進去的空氣呢\n\n9\n00:03:04,181 --> 00:03:31,126\n是離地3公尺的還是我們都知道排氣的位置跟人體呼吸越接近的地方當然那個就能夠精準的反應好這個是一個共識那我們之前都提到PM2.5是一個長期的毒害但是剛剛你也提到醫生說要偵測包括一氧化碳甚至氮氧化物等是立即的有一些這個呼吸道的感染或心血管的風險那交通車站跟一般車站我現在就暫時這樣分開\n\n10\n00:03:32,366 --> 00:03:48,387\n他們的差別就是在離採樣口距離地面遠近來比那比起一般交通站其實更能夠反映民眾他的生活當中他暴露的一個情況對嗎你剛剛也提到這一點\n\n11\n00:03:49,648 --> 00:04:16,997\n他比較能夠測出這個高風險那但是根據空氣品質監測監測站的設置及監測標準準則這條準則這個交通空氣的品質的監測站應該設置在交通流量比較頻繁或是反應可能因為交通的這個高排放所造成的污染的地區所以部長次長您同意這個空氣交通空氣品質監測站很重要嗎您覺得很重要要不要增加要不要增加\n\n12\n00:04:18,052 --> 00:04:33,806\n我們很務實的去檢討那過去的過去是從工業污染嘛現在轉為這個我們也重視到這個交通跟民生的部分所以我們也規劃了我們會在未來包括像中部跟南部都需要增加\n\n13\n00:04:35,467 --> 00:04:59,838\n日本從一開始就有控管2.5但他同時間會公佈什麼公佈一般策戰跟交通策戰的數據但是我國目前只有一般空氣策戰的法源依據因為你剛剛根據我剛剛提到的這個空氣品質監測站的設置及監測準則他有明定的英設像右邊這個圖他有明定英設的戰術的最低數量但是交通策戰的硬體是好像不受重視那個就是說\n\n14\n00:05:03,519 --> 00:05:21,844\n次長您同不同意要修正第四條第二項一般空氣品質建設站以外的其他種類應該也把交通測站的設置專注寫在裡面因為目前是寫這幾個字次長你有看到嗎是實際需要設置之這幾例很空泛很主觀隨人解釋你有考慮再做修正嗎把它寫入準則中\n\n15\n00:05:30,714 --> 00:06:00,014\n跟國民報告其實是實際需要我們現在就是實際需要的時候所以這個沒有問題那我會每次一直改啦那我們保留這樣的東西其實這樣的一個文字就有這樣的一個機制在尤其我們今天談交通嘛你也覺得說今天我們討論的主題就是來自交通源嘛污染源嘛那你這個部分之前就有一般的那個策展就有數字的規定嘛minimum最少要怎麼放那這個地方要考慮一下好嗎\n\n16\n00:06:00,834 --> 00:06:07,701\n有問題嗎我們就事實繼續要我們來檢討市長昨天有多位醫師跟環保團體召開記者會要呼籲說PM205應該要加嚴管道0.1剛剛開宗明義也有講上週劉建國交委也跟台灣健康空氣行動聯盟創會理事長葉光鵬醫師也召開記者會他們訴求環境部也應該要加嚴管制\n\n17\n00:06:24,216 --> 00:06:42,506\n0.1他沒有舉出許多證據啦剛剛報告稍微提到空氣汙染就會傷害到腦部健康現在證明可能跟成年人的失智也有關聯那當然根據我的醫學背景越細只要越細那無孔不入全身都跑可能進入血液跟組織所以他走到哪裡傷害到哪裡\n\n18\n00:06:43,446 --> 00:07:08,919\n所以這個是就是非常擔心的事而且這個東西不是戴口罩一般的醫療口罩就能夠處理的所以你剛剛也提到既然PM0.1我們今天的主角是來自交通員的這個管制為主那我想說你也開始做了一些研究嘛跟大學合作我剛剛有才聽到這樣的部分這個也很好但是這個我想請教這些策戰離地面有多遠有多遠\n\n19\n00:07:10,592 --> 00:07:27,881\n就是您在合作的單位上他監測的這個0.1他的離地面有多遠就是那個車站就是設在像台大皇宮所那個就是長興街跟基隆路三段那個路口那個就設在直接擺在車站就擺在地面上\n\n20\n00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:51,315\n離地面比較近我們剛剛提到你這是交通來源嘛你要撤交通來源的污染源一定這個監測站就是不能夠是像一般的公司嗎是這樣做嗎我想學者應該是不會犯下這個錯那你什麼時候要開始擴大你開始起步了有沒有要擴大你的規劃的進度我們現在是這樣就是說因為歐盟也是明年\n\n21\n00:07:52,156 --> 00:08:06,472\n抵著開始要求會員國開始監測我們是台北這邊先這一站然後我們現在是在台中有兩站高雄會設三站就除了剛剛講那個交通站之外另外的這六站\n\n22\n00:08:07,093 --> 00:08:25,147\n我現在不跟你說很嚴肅的問題2020年台東市政府依法開罰綜合1800萬結果當時的環保署卻禁制撤銷罰單那上星期台北高等法院一審判決表明環境部沒有權利撤銷地方政府的裁罰處分那依照地方制度法只有行政院\n\n23\n00:08:25,868 --> 00:08:37,812\n才能夠撤銷變更停止或廢止這事情換句話說當時環保署進行撤銷台中市政府對台電的這個開罰是違法是這個越權是程序不當請問你知道當時是誰做這個決定嗎誰把他撤銷掉跟委員報告要不要處分\n\n24\n00:08:42,774 --> 00:09:00,232\n是這個沒有因為這個審判還在進行當中還沒有終結所以不會在這個時候進行處問我們要講的是這一次的法院的裁定並沒有說台中市是合法的喔他只是說我們在程序上那我要跟委員報告如果委員有時間我可以我會說明\n\n25\n00:09:02,814 --> 00:09:26,725\n我們要去看那個為什麼台中市是違法的我們有一些論述啦但是因為時間上可能不夠說明這個部分我也把今天把這些文字就放在這個投影片上啦這個是最壞的那個官官相互的示範不是絕對不是中央政府跟地方政府全國各縣市的環保局環保單位都必須要維護全民的環境空氣品質很重要但是要依法行政啦\n\n26\n00:09:27,825 --> 00:09:30,926\n要不要讓我列舉一下沒有依法行政的原因法官是從程序面來判斷這件事情但是沒有對實質進行審判是依法執行\n\n27\n00:09:43,450 --> 00:10:08,791\n那台中市民飽受這個中火的這個污染它是污染大戶嘛我們也承認嘛齁那地方政府行使職權為人民主張工作結果你環境部不是支持卻把罰單撤銷掉不是我們要求地方政府要遵守職權要保障所有事業及國民的所有依法的事情不然我們就亂掉了啊怎麼空瓦就沒有辦法依法去執行啊那個動作就違法程序嘛不我們必須這是環境部的職責各位報告這是環境部的職責我們必須要上訴\n\n28\n00:10:13,342 --> 00:10:18,384\n好你要上訴所以換句話說你們沒有認錯你們沒有認錯你們要繼續上訴要耗費這個行政資源護航中國護航中國不是護航誰今天任何一個產業或是任何一個國民在政府不依法行政的時候\n\n29\n00:10:29,449 --> 00:10:56,154\n政府就必須要去導正你們沒有權利做事行政院才有權利做這件事跟委員報告現在只是高等行政法院一審而已還沒有到最終市長你的解釋我們大家大概都會很驚訝反正就是說你已經被法院裁決了但是事實上你們覺得你還要繼續上訴但我們跟律師有討論過律師也是做這樣的建議跟委員報告我們環境部不能失職謝謝委員的指教好謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員謝謝市長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5960\t6701\t謝謝主席 有請次長來 次長\n14261\t28111\t市長 部長在5月12號行政院會時有提到移動污染源的污染量已經超過了固定污染源的污染量他提到這個事 那我們延續這個基礎我想跟環境部討論空氣品質監測在眾多種類還有很多種類當中的交通空氣品質監測的問題那有關中央設置的固定的交通空氣品質監測在當初環境部是選擇在交通流量\n43541\t59297\t向繁忙的路口希望他能夠如實去反映這個污染源對於行人還有用路人的一個暴露狀態來保護提醒這個民眾的健康但是我現在了解中央設置的監測站只有六座那請問次長台灣難道只有這六處是交通繁忙區嗎\n66024\t83365\t那我再說再加上柯文哲當市長的時候他在台北市設了三站地方政府桃園市台東市也各設一站所以整個台灣目前僅僅只有11個固定交通車站對比台灣的交通狀況其實是很不夠的市長你有掌握這個資訊嗎\n84747\t102477\t好那這樣就是說不但是不夠而且我跟市長這個說明一下這個分佈很不均目前環境部設置的固定交通側站雙北加上桃園有四座高雄有兩座從新竹到台南地區甚至一座都沒有\n103277\t126620\t但是台灣西半部幾乎每個縣市在交通尖峰的時間都會有塞車問題那麼行人加上機車族每天上下班塞在那個車鎮中民眾都會長時間暴露在可能的這個致癌的空氣污染中但是目前卻只有北高受到比較多的關注那其他縣市好像就淪為次等公民了那請問次長你覺得你要承諾做這個改善嗎\n127816\t153827\t是跟委員報告的確委員所講的數字都對剛剛的提出的這個指教就是我們的全國空氣品質的先車站中央有70%站地方有34站但是如果以專屬的交通車站來講只有11站確實是有不足可是過去的空氣污染管制我們是從工廠慢慢的逐步到現在我們已經把交通的當作是比較\n154127\t180660\t既然您今天的報告0.1嘛 所要來源是交通來源那我們就開始要在這邊加強交通是要被注意的請部長看這個圖 看左邊這張圖這是新北市永和的交通空品車站它離地是3公尺 那就在人行道旁邊的另外右邊這張是頂樓的一般車站離地大概12公尺以上我想請問次長哪一個可以真正反映交通族通勤族吸進去的空氣呢\n184181\t211126\t是離地3公尺的還是我們都知道排氣的位置跟人體呼吸越接近的地方當然那個就能夠精準的反應好這個是一個共識那我們之前都提到PM2.5是一個長期的毒害但是剛剛你也提到醫生說要偵測包括一氧化碳甚至氮氧化物等是立即的有一些這個呼吸道的感染或心血管的風險那交通車站跟一般車站我現在就暫時這樣分開\n212366\t228387\t他們的差別就是在離採樣口距離地面遠近來比那比起一般交通站其實更能夠反映民眾他的生活當中他暴露的一個情況對嗎你剛剛也提到這一點\n229648\t256997\t他比較能夠測出這個高風險那但是根據空氣品質監測監測站的設置及監測標準準則這條準則這個交通空氣的品質的監測站應該設置在交通流量比較頻繁或是反應可能因為交通的這個高排放所造成的污染的地區所以部長次長您同意這個空氣交通空氣品質監測站很重要嗎您覺得很重要要不要增加要不要增加\n258052\t273806\t我們很務實的去檢討那過去的過去是從工業污染嘛現在轉為這個我們也重視到這個交通跟民生的部分所以我們也規劃了我們會在未來包括像中部跟南部都需要增加\n275467\t299838\t日本從一開始就有控管2.5但他同時間會公佈什麼公佈一般策戰跟交通策戰的數據但是我國目前只有一般空氣策戰的法源依據因為你剛剛根據我剛剛提到的這個空氣品質監測站的設置及監測準則他有明定的英設像右邊這個圖他有明定英設的戰術的最低數量但是交通策戰的硬體是好像不受重視那個就是說\n303519\t321844\t次長您同不同意要修正第四條第二項一般空氣品質建設站以外的其他種類應該也把交通測站的設置專注寫在裡面因為目前是寫這幾個字次長你有看到嗎是實際需要設置之這幾例很空泛很主觀隨人解釋你有考慮再做修正嗎把它寫入準則中\n330714\t360014\t跟國民報告其實是實際需要我們現在就是實際需要的時候所以這個沒有問題那我會每次一直改啦那我們保留這樣的東西其實這樣的一個文字就有這樣的一個機制在尤其我們今天談交通嘛你也覺得說今天我們討論的主題就是來自交通源嘛污染源嘛那你這個部分之前就有一般的那個策展就有數字的規定嘛minimum最少要怎麼放那這個地方要考慮一下好嗎\n360834\t367701\t有問題嗎我們就事實繼續要我們來檢討市長昨天有多位醫師跟環保團體召開記者會要呼籲說PM205應該要加嚴管道0.1剛剛開宗明義也有講上週劉建國交委也跟台灣健康空氣行動聯盟創會理事長葉光鵬醫師也召開記者會他們訴求環境部也應該要加嚴管制\n384216\t402506\t0.1他沒有舉出許多證據啦剛剛報告稍微提到空氣汙染就會傷害到腦部健康現在證明可能跟成年人的失智也有關聯那當然根據我的醫學背景越細只要越細那無孔不入全身都跑可能進入血液跟組織所以他走到哪裡傷害到哪裡\n403446\t428919\t所以這個是就是非常擔心的事而且這個東西不是戴口罩一般的醫療口罩就能夠處理的所以你剛剛也提到既然PM0.1我們今天的主角是來自交通員的這個管制為主那我想說你也開始做了一些研究嘛跟大學合作我剛剛有才聽到這樣的部分這個也很好但是這個我想請教這些策戰離地面有多遠有多遠\n430592\t447881\t就是您在合作的單位上他監測的這個0.1他的離地面有多遠就是那個車站就是設在像台大皇宮所那個就是長興街跟基隆路三段那個路口那個就設在直接擺在車站就擺在地面上\n450000\t471315\t離地面比較近我們剛剛提到你這是交通來源嘛你要撤交通來源的污染源一定這個監測站就是不能夠是像一般的公司嗎是這樣做嗎我想學者應該是不會犯下這個錯那你什麼時候要開始擴大你開始起步了有沒有要擴大你的規劃的進度我們現在是這樣就是說因為歐盟也是明年\n472156\t486472\t抵著開始要求會員國開始監測我們是台北這邊先這一站然後我們現在是在台中有兩站高雄會設三站就除了剛剛講那個交通站之外另外的這六站\n487093\t505147\t我現在不跟你說很嚴肅的問題2020年台東市政府依法開罰綜合1800萬結果當時的環保署卻禁制撤銷罰單那上星期台北高等法院一審判決表明環境部沒有權利撤銷地方政府的裁罰處分那依照地方制度法只有行政院\n505868\t517812\t才能夠撤銷變更停止或廢止這事情換句話說當時環保署進行撤銷台中市政府對台電的這個開罰是違法是這個越權是程序不當請問你知道當時是誰做這個決定嗎誰把他撤銷掉跟委員報告要不要處分\n522774\t540232\t是這個沒有因為這個審判還在進行當中還沒有終結所以不會在這個時候進行處問我們要講的是這一次的法院的裁定並沒有說台中市是合法的喔他只是說我們在程序上那我要跟委員報告如果委員有時間我可以我會說明\n542814\t566725\t我們要去看那個為什麼台中市是違法的我們有一些論述啦但是因為時間上可能不夠說明這個部分我也把今天把這些文字就放在這個投影片上啦這個是最壞的那個官官相互的示範不是絕對不是中央政府跟地方政府全國各縣市的環保局環保單位都必須要維護全民的環境空氣品質很重要但是要依法行政啦\n567825\t570926\t要不要讓我列舉一下沒有依法行政的原因法官是從程序面來判斷這件事情但是沒有對實質進行審判是依法執行\n583450\t608791\t那台中市民飽受這個中火的這個污染它是污染大戶嘛我們也承認嘛齁那地方政府行使職權為人民主張工作結果你環境部不是支持卻把罰單撤銷掉不是 我們要求地方政府要遵守職權要保障所有事業及國民的所有依法的事情不然我們就亂掉了啊怎麼空瓦就沒有辦法依法去執行啊那個動作就違法程序嘛不 我們必須這是環境部的職責各位報告 這是環境部的職責我們必須要上訴\n613342\t618384\t好你要上訴所以換句話說你們沒有認錯你們沒有認錯你們要繼續上訴要耗費這個行政資源護航中國護航中國不是護航誰今天任何一個產業或是任何一個國民在政府不依法行政的時候\n629449\t656154\t政府就必須要去導正你們沒有權利做事行政院才有權利做這件事跟委員報告現在只是高等行政法院一審而已還沒有到最終市長你的解釋我們大家大概都會很驚訝反正就是說你已經被法院裁決了但是事實上你們覺得你還要繼續上訴但我們跟律師有討論過律師也是做這樣的建議跟委員報告我們環境部不能失職謝謝委員的指教好謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員謝謝市長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請次長來 次長\n市長 部長在5月12號行政院會時有提到移動污染源的污染量已經超過了固定污染源的污染量他提到這個事 那我們延續這個基礎我想跟環境部討論空氣品質監測在眾多種類還有很多種類當中的交通空氣品質監測的問題那有關中央設置的固定的交通空氣品質監測在當初環境部是選擇在交通流量\n向繁忙的路口希望他能夠如實去反映這個污染源對於行人還有用路人的一個暴露狀態來保護提醒這個民眾的健康但是我現在了解中央設置的監測站只有六座那請問次長台灣難道只有這六處是交通繁忙區嗎\n那我再說再加上柯文哲當市長的時候他在台北市設了三站地方政府桃園市台東市也各設一站所以整個台灣目前僅僅只有11個固定交通車站對比台灣的交通狀況其實是很不夠的市長你有掌握這個資訊嗎\n好那這樣就是說不但是不夠而且我跟市長這個說明一下這個分佈很不均目前環境部設置的固定交通側站雙北加上桃園有四座高雄有兩座從新竹到台南地區甚至一座都沒有\n但是台灣西半部幾乎每個縣市在交通尖峰的時間都會有塞車問題那麼行人加上機車族每天上下班塞在那個車鎮中民眾都會長時間暴露在可能的這個致癌的空氣污染中但是目前卻只有北高受到比較多的關注那其他縣市好像就淪為次等公民了那請問次長你覺得你要承諾做這個改善嗎\n是跟委員報告的確委員所講的數字都對剛剛的提出的這個指教就是我們的全國空氣品質的先車站中央有70%站地方有34站但是如果以專屬的交通車站來講只有11站確實是有不足可是過去的空氣污染管制我們是從工廠慢慢的逐步到現在我們已經把交通的當作是比較\n既然您今天的報告0.1嘛 所要來源是交通來源那我們就開始要在這邊加強交通是要被注意的請部長看這個圖 看左邊這張圖這是新北市永和的交通空品車站它離地是3公尺 那就在人行道旁邊的另外右邊這張是頂樓的一般車站離地大概12公尺以上我想請問次長哪一個可以真正反映交通族通勤族吸進去的空氣呢\n是離地3公尺的還是我們都知道排氣的位置跟人體呼吸越接近的地方當然那個就能夠精準的反應好這個是一個共識那我們之前都提到PM2.5是一個長期的毒害但是剛剛你也提到醫生說要偵測包括一氧化碳甚至氮氧化物等是立即的有一些這個呼吸道的感染或心血管的風險那交通車站跟一般車站我現在就暫時這樣分開\n他們的差別就是在離採樣口距離地面遠近來比那比起一般交通站其實更能夠反映民眾他的生活當中他暴露的一個情況對嗎你剛剛也提到這一點\n他比較能夠測出這個高風險那但是根據空氣品質監測監測站的設置及監測標準準則這條準則這個交通空氣的品質的監測站應該設置在交通流量比較頻繁或是反應可能因為交通的這個高排放所造成的污染的地區所以部長次長您同意這個空氣交通空氣品質監測站很重要嗎您覺得很重要要不要增加要不要增加\n我們很務實的去檢討那過去的過去是從工業污染嘛現在轉為這個我們也重視到這個交通跟民生的部分所以我們也規劃了我們會在未來包括像中部跟南部都需要增加\n日本從一開始就有控管2.5但他同時間會公佈什麼公佈一般策戰跟交通策戰的數據但是我國目前只有一般空氣策戰的法源依據因為你剛剛根據我剛剛提到的這個空氣品質監測站的設置及監測準則他有明定的英設像右邊這個圖他有明定英設的戰術的最低數量但是交通策戰的硬體是好像不受重視那個就是說\n次長您同不同意要修正第四條第二項一般空氣品質建設站以外的其他種類應該也把交通測站的設置專注寫在裡面因為目前是寫這幾個字次長你有看到嗎是實際需要設置之這幾例很空泛很主觀隨人解釋你有考慮再做修正嗎把它寫入準則中\n跟國民報告其實是實際需要我們現在就是實際需要的時候所以這個沒有問題那我會每次一直改啦那我們保留這樣的東西其實這樣的一個文字就有這樣的一個機制在尤其我們今天談交通嘛你也覺得說今天我們討論的主題就是來自交通源嘛污染源嘛那你這個部分之前就有一般的那個策展就有數字的規定嘛minimum最少要怎麼放那這個地方要考慮一下好嗎\n有問題嗎我們就事實繼續要我們來檢討市長昨天有多位醫師跟環保團體召開記者會要呼籲說PM205應該要加嚴管道0.1剛剛開宗明義也有講上週劉建國交委也跟台灣健康空氣行動聯盟創會理事長葉光鵬醫師也召開記者會他們訴求環境部也應該要加嚴管制\n0.1他沒有舉出許多證據啦剛剛報告稍微提到空氣汙染就會傷害到腦部健康現在證明可能跟成年人的失智也有關聯那當然根據我的醫學背景越細只要越細那無孔不入全身都跑可能進入血液跟組織所以他走到哪裡傷害到哪裡\n所以這個是就是非常擔心的事而且這個東西不是戴口罩一般的醫療口罩就能夠處理的所以你剛剛也提到既然PM0.1我們今天的主角是來自交通員的這個管制為主那我想說你也開始做了一些研究嘛跟大學合作我剛剛有才聽到這樣的部分這個也很好但是這個我想請教這些策戰離地面有多遠有多遠\n就是您在合作的單位上他監測的這個0.1他的離地面有多遠就是那個車站就是設在像台大皇宮所那個就是長興街跟基隆路三段那個路口那個就設在直接擺在車站就擺在地面上\n離地面比較近我們剛剛提到你這是交通來源嘛你要撤交通來源的污染源一定這個監測站就是不能夠是像一般的公司嗎是這樣做嗎我想學者應該是不會犯下這個錯那你什麼時候要開始擴大你開始起步了有沒有要擴大你的規劃的進度我們現在是這樣就是說因為歐盟也是明年\n抵著開始要求會員國開始監測我們是台北這邊先這一站然後我們現在是在台中有兩站高雄會設三站就除了剛剛講那個交通站之外另外的這六站\n我現在不跟你說很嚴肅的問題2020年台東市政府依法開罰綜合1800萬結果當時的環保署卻禁制撤銷罰單那上星期台北高等法院一審判決表明環境部沒有權利撤銷地方政府的裁罰處分那依照地方制度法只有行政院\n才能夠撤銷變更停止或廢止這事情換句話說當時環保署進行撤銷台中市政府對台電的這個開罰是違法是這個越權是程序不當請問你知道當時是誰做這個決定嗎誰把他撤銷掉跟委員報告要不要處分\n是這個沒有因為這個審判還在進行當中還沒有終結所以不會在這個時候進行處問我們要講的是這一次的法院的裁定並沒有說台中市是合法的喔他只是說我們在程序上那我要跟委員報告如果委員有時間我可以我會說明\n我們要去看那個為什麼台中市是違法的我們有一些論述啦但是因為時間上可能不夠說明這個部分我也把今天把這些文字就放在這個投影片上啦這個是最壞的那個官官相互的示範不是絕對不是中央政府跟地方政府全國各縣市的環保局環保單位都必須要維護全民的環境空氣品質很重要但是要依法行政啦\n要不要讓我列舉一下沒有依法行政的原因法官是從程序面來判斷這件事情但是沒有對實質進行審判是依法執行\n那台中市民飽受這個中火的這個污染它是污染大戶嘛我們也承認嘛齁那地方政府行使職權為人民主張工作結果你環境部不是支持卻把罰單撤銷掉不是 我們要求地方政府要遵守職權要保障所有事業及國民的所有依法的事情不然我們就亂掉了啊怎麼空瓦就沒有辦法依法去執行啊那個動作就違法程序嘛不 我們必須這是環境部的職責各位報告 這是環境部的職責我們必須要上訴\n好你要上訴所以換句話說你們沒有認錯你們沒有認錯你們要繼續上訴要耗費這個行政資源護航中國護航中國不是護航誰今天任何一個產業或是任何一個國民在政府不依法行政的時候\n政府就必須要去導正你們沒有權利做事行政院才有權利做這件事跟委員報告現在只是高等行政法院一審而已還沒有到最終市長你的解釋我們大家大概都會很驚訝反正就是說你已經被法院裁決了但是事實上你們覺得你還要繼續上訴但我們跟律師有討論過律師也是做這樣的建議跟委員報告我們環境部不能失職謝謝委員的指教好謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員謝謝市長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.960 --> 00:06.701\n謝謝主席有請次長來次長\n\n00:14.261 --> 00:28.111\n市長部長在5月12號行政院會時有提到移動污染源的污染量已經超過了固定污染源的污染量他提到這個事那我們延續這個基礎我想跟環境部討論空氣品質監測在眾多種類還有很多種類當中的交通空氣品質監測的問題那有關中央設置的固定的交通空氣品質監測在當初環境部是選擇在交通流量\n\n00:43.541 --> 00:59.297\n向繁忙的路口希望他能夠如實去反映這個污染源對於行人還有用路人的一個暴露狀態來保護提醒這個民眾的健康但是我現在了解中央設置的監測站只有六座那請問次長台灣難道只有這六處是交通繁忙區嗎\n\n01:06.024 --> 01:23.365\n那我再說再加上柯文哲當市長的時候他在台北市設了三站地方政府桃園市台東市也各設一站所以整個台灣目前僅僅只有11個固定交通車站對比台灣的交通狀況其實是很不夠的市長你有掌握這個資訊嗎\n\n01:24.747 --> 01:42.477\n好那這樣就是說不但是不夠而且我跟市長這個說明一下這個分佈很不均目前環境部設置的固定交通側站雙北加上桃園有四座高雄有兩座從新竹到台南地區甚至一座都沒有\n\n01:43.277 --> 02:06.620\n但是台灣西半部幾乎每個縣市在交通尖峰的時間都會有塞車問題那麼行人加上機車族每天上下班塞在那個車鎮中民眾都會長時間暴露在可能的這個致癌的空氣污染中但是目前卻只有北高受到比較多的關注那其他縣市好像就淪為次等公民了那請問次長你覺得你要承諾做這個改善嗎\n\n02:07.816 --> 02:33.827\n是跟委員報告的確委員所講的數字都對剛剛的提出的這個指教就是我們的全國空氣品質的先車站中央有70%站地方有34站但是如果以專屬的交通車站來講只有11站確實是有不足可是過去的空氣污染管制我們是從工廠慢慢的逐步到現在我們已經把交通的當作是比較\n\n02:34.127 --> 03:00.660\n既然您今天的報告0.1嘛所要來源是交通來源那我們就開始要在這邊加強交通是要被注意的請部長看這個圖看左邊這張圖這是新北市永和的交通空品車站它離地是3公尺那就在人行道旁邊的另外右邊這張是頂樓的一般車站離地大概12公尺以上我想請問次長哪一個可以真正反映交通族通勤族吸進去的空氣呢\n\n03:04.181 --> 03:31.126\n是離地3公尺的還是我們都知道排氣的位置跟人體呼吸越接近的地方當然那個就能夠精準的反應好這個是一個共識那我們之前都提到PM2.5是一個長期的毒害但是剛剛你也提到醫生說要偵測包括一氧化碳甚至氮氧化物等是立即的有一些這個呼吸道的感染或心血管的風險那交通車站跟一般車站我現在就暫時這樣分開\n\n03:32.366 --> 03:48.387\n他們的差別就是在離採樣口距離地面遠近來比那比起一般交通站其實更能夠反映民眾他的生活當中他暴露的一個情況對嗎你剛剛也提到這一點\n\n03:49.648 --> 04:16.997\n他比較能夠測出這個高風險那但是根據空氣品質監測監測站的設置及監測標準準則這條準則這個交通空氣的品質的監測站應該設置在交通流量比較頻繁或是反應可能因為交通的這個高排放所造成的污染的地區所以部長次長您同意這個空氣交通空氣品質監測站很重要嗎您覺得很重要要不要增加要不要增加\n\n04:18.052 --> 04:33.806\n我們很務實的去檢討那過去的過去是從工業污染嘛現在轉為這個我們也重視到這個交通跟民生的部分所以我們也規劃了我們會在未來包括像中部跟南部都需要增加\n\n04:35.467 --> 04:59.838\n日本從一開始就有控管2.5但他同時間會公佈什麼公佈一般策戰跟交通策戰的數據但是我國目前只有一般空氣策戰的法源依據因為你剛剛根據我剛剛提到的這個空氣品質監測站的設置及監測準則他有明定的英設像右邊這個圖他有明定英設的戰術的最低數量但是交通策戰的硬體是好像不受重視那個就是說\n\n05:03.519 --> 05:21.844\n次長您同不同意要修正第四條第二項一般空氣品質建設站以外的其他種類應該也把交通測站的設置專注寫在裡面因為目前是寫這幾個字次長你有看到嗎是實際需要設置之這幾例很空泛很主觀隨人解釋你有考慮再做修正嗎把它寫入準則中\n\n05:30.714 --> 06:00.014\n跟國民報告其實是實際需要我們現在就是實際需要的時候所以這個沒有問題那我會每次一直改啦那我們保留這樣的東西其實這樣的一個文字就有這樣的一個機制在尤其我們今天談交通嘛你也覺得說今天我們討論的主題就是來自交通源嘛污染源嘛那你這個部分之前就有一般的那個策展就有數字的規定嘛minimum最少要怎麼放那這個地方要考慮一下好嗎\n\n06:00.834 --> 06:07.701\n有問題嗎我們就事實繼續要我們來檢討市長昨天有多位醫師跟環保團體召開記者會要呼籲說PM205應該要加嚴管道0.1剛剛開宗明義也有講上週劉建國交委也跟台灣健康空氣行動聯盟創會理事長葉光鵬醫師也召開記者會他們訴求環境部也應該要加嚴管制\n\n06:24.216 --> 06:42.506\n0.1他沒有舉出許多證據啦剛剛報告稍微提到空氣汙染就會傷害到腦部健康現在證明可能跟成年人的失智也有關聯那當然根據我的醫學背景越細只要越細那無孔不入全身都跑可能進入血液跟組織所以他走到哪裡傷害到哪裡\n\n06:43.446 --> 07:08.919\n所以這個是就是非常擔心的事而且這個東西不是戴口罩一般的醫療口罩就能夠處理的所以你剛剛也提到既然PM0.1我們今天的主角是來自交通員的這個管制為主那我想說你也開始做了一些研究嘛跟大學合作我剛剛有才聽到這樣的部分這個也很好但是這個我想請教這些策戰離地面有多遠有多遠\n\n07:10.592 --> 07:27.881\n就是您在合作的單位上他監測的這個0.1他的離地面有多遠就是那個車站就是設在像台大皇宮所那個就是長興街跟基隆路三段那個路口那個就設在直接擺在車站就擺在地面上\n\n07:30.000 --> 07:51.315\n離地面比較近我們剛剛提到你這是交通來源嘛你要撤交通來源的污染源一定這個監測站就是不能夠是像一般的公司嗎是這樣做嗎我想學者應該是不會犯下這個錯那你什麼時候要開始擴大你開始起步了有沒有要擴大你的規劃的進度我們現在是這樣就是說因為歐盟也是明年\n\n07:52.156 --> 08:06.472\n抵著開始要求會員國開始監測我們是台北這邊先這一站然後我們現在是在台中有兩站高雄會設三站就除了剛剛講那個交通站之外另外的這六站\n\n08:07.093 --> 08:25.147\n我現在不跟你說很嚴肅的問題2020年台東市政府依法開罰綜合1800萬結果當時的環保署卻禁制撤銷罰單那上星期台北高等法院一審判決表明環境部沒有權利撤銷地方政府的裁罰處分那依照地方制度法只有行政院\n\n08:25.868 --> 08:37.812\n才能夠撤銷變更停止或廢止這事情換句話說當時環保署進行撤銷台中市政府對台電的這個開罰是違法是這個越權是程序不當請問你知道當時是誰做這個決定嗎誰把他撤銷掉跟委員報告要不要處分\n\n08:42.774 --> 09:00.232\n是這個沒有因為這個審判還在進行當中還沒有終結所以不會在這個時候進行處問我們要講的是這一次的法院的裁定並沒有說台中市是合法的喔他只是說我們在程序上那我要跟委員報告如果委員有時間我可以我會說明\n\n09:02.814 --> 09:26.725\n我們要去看那個為什麼台中市是違法的我們有一些論述啦但是因為時間上可能不夠說明這個部分我也把今天把這些文字就放在這個投影片上啦這個是最壞的那個官官相互的示範不是絕對不是中央政府跟地方政府全國各縣市的環保局環保單位都必須要維護全民的環境空氣品質很重要但是要依法行政啦\n\n09:27.825 --> 09:30.926\n要不要讓我列舉一下沒有依法行政的原因法官是從程序面來判斷這件事情但是沒有對實質進行審判是依法執行\n\n09:43.450 --> 10:08.791\n那台中市民飽受這個中火的這個污染它是污染大戶嘛我們也承認嘛齁那地方政府行使職權為人民主張工作結果你環境部不是支持卻把罰單撤銷掉不是我們要求地方政府要遵守職權要保障所有事業及國民的所有依法的事情不然我們就亂掉了啊怎麼空瓦就沒有辦法依法去執行啊那個動作就違法程序嘛不我們必須這是環境部的職責各位報告這是環境部的職責我們必須要上訴\n\n10:13.342 --> 10:18.384\n好你要上訴所以換句話說你們沒有認錯你們沒有認錯你們要繼續上訴要耗費這個行政資源護航中國護航中國不是護航誰今天任何一個產業或是任何一個國民在政府不依法行政的時候\n\n10:29.449 --> 10:56.154\n政府就必須要去導正你們沒有權利做事行政院才有權利做這件事跟委員報告現在只是高等行政法院一審而已還沒有到最終市長你的解釋我們大家大概都會很驚訝反正就是說你已經被法院裁決了但是事實上你們覺得你還要繼續上訴但我們跟律師有討論過律師也是做這樣的建議跟委員報告我們環境部不能失職謝謝委員的指教好謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員謝謝市長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.96,"end":6.701,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長來 次長"},{"start":14.261,"end":28.111,"text":"市長 部長在5月12號行政院會時有提到移動污染源的污染量已經超過了固定污染源的污染量他提到這個事 那我們延續這個基礎我想跟環境部討論空氣品質監測在眾多種類還有很多種類當中的交通空氣品質監測的問題那有關中央設置的固定的交通空氣品質監測在當初環境部是選擇在交通流量"},{"start":43.541,"end":59.297,"text":"向繁忙的路口希望他能夠如實去反映這個污染源對於行人還有用路人的一個暴露狀態來保護提醒這個民眾的健康但是我現在了解中央設置的監測站只有六座那請問次長台灣難道只有這六處是交通繁忙區嗎"},{"start":66.024,"end":83.365,"text":"那我再說再加上柯文哲當市長的時候他在台北市設了三站地方政府桃園市台東市也各設一站所以整個台灣目前僅僅只有11個固定交通車站對比台灣的交通狀況其實是很不夠的市長你有掌握這個資訊嗎"},{"start":84.747,"end":102.477,"text":"好那這樣就是說不但是不夠而且我跟市長這個說明一下這個分佈很不均目前環境部設置的固定交通側站雙北加上桃園有四座高雄有兩座從新竹到台南地區甚至一座都沒有"},{"start":103.277,"end":126.62,"text":"但是台灣西半部幾乎每個縣市在交通尖峰的時間都會有塞車問題那麼行人加上機車族每天上下班塞在那個車鎮中民眾都會長時間暴露在可能的這個致癌的空氣污染中但是目前卻只有北高受到比較多的關注那其他縣市好像就淪為次等公民了那請問次長你覺得你要承諾做這個改善嗎"},{"start":127.816,"end":153.827,"text":"是跟委員報告的確委員所講的數字都對剛剛的提出的這個指教就是我們的全國空氣品質的先車站中央有70%站地方有34站但是如果以專屬的交通車站來講只有11站確實是有不足可是過去的空氣污染管制我們是從工廠慢慢的逐步到現在我們已經把交通的當作是比較"},{"start":154.127,"end":180.66,"text":"既然您今天的報告0.1嘛 所要來源是交通來源那我們就開始要在這邊加強交通是要被注意的請部長看這個圖 看左邊這張圖這是新北市永和的交通空品車站它離地是3公尺 那就在人行道旁邊的另外右邊這張是頂樓的一般車站離地大概12公尺以上我想請問次長哪一個可以真正反映交通族通勤族吸進去的空氣呢"},{"start":184.181,"end":211.126,"text":"是離地3公尺的還是我們都知道排氣的位置跟人體呼吸越接近的地方當然那個就能夠精準的反應好這個是一個共識那我們之前都提到PM2.5是一個長期的毒害但是剛剛你也提到醫生說要偵測包括一氧化碳甚至氮氧化物等是立即的有一些這個呼吸道的感染或心血管的風險那交通車站跟一般車站我現在就暫時這樣分開"},{"start":212.366,"end":228.387,"text":"他們的差別就是在離採樣口距離地面遠近來比那比起一般交通站其實更能夠反映民眾他的生活當中他暴露的一個情況對嗎你剛剛也提到這一點"},{"start":229.648,"end":256.997,"text":"他比較能夠測出這個高風險那但是根據空氣品質監測監測站的設置及監測標準準則這條準則這個交通空氣的品質的監測站應該設置在交通流量比較頻繁或是反應可能因為交通的這個高排放所造成的污染的地區所以部長次長您同意這個空氣交通空氣品質監測站很重要嗎您覺得很重要要不要增加要不要增加"},{"start":258.052,"end":273.806,"text":"我們很務實的去檢討那過去的過去是從工業污染嘛現在轉為這個我們也重視到這個交通跟民生的部分所以我們也規劃了我們會在未來包括像中部跟南部都需要增加"},{"start":275.467,"end":299.838,"text":"日本從一開始就有控管2.5但他同時間會公佈什麼公佈一般策戰跟交通策戰的數據但是我國目前只有一般空氣策戰的法源依據因為你剛剛根據我剛剛提到的這個空氣品質監測站的設置及監測準則他有明定的英設像右邊這個圖他有明定英設的戰術的最低數量但是交通策戰的硬體是好像不受重視那個就是說"},{"start":303.519,"end":321.844,"text":"次長您同不同意要修正第四條第二項一般空氣品質建設站以外的其他種類應該也把交通測站的設置專注寫在裡面因為目前是寫這幾個字次長你有看到嗎是實際需要設置之這幾例很空泛很主觀隨人解釋你有考慮再做修正嗎把它寫入準則中"},{"start":330.714,"end":360.014,"text":"跟國民報告其實是實際需要我們現在就是實際需要的時候所以這個沒有問題那我會每次一直改啦那我們保留這樣的東西其實這樣的一個文字就有這樣的一個機制在尤其我們今天談交通嘛你也覺得說今天我們討論的主題就是來自交通源嘛污染源嘛那你這個部分之前就有一般的那個策展就有數字的規定嘛minimum最少要怎麼放那這個地方要考慮一下好嗎"},{"start":360.834,"end":367.701,"text":"有問題嗎我們就事實繼續要我們來檢討市長昨天有多位醫師跟環保團體召開記者會要呼籲說PM205應該要加嚴管道0.1剛剛開宗明義也有講上週劉建國交委也跟台灣健康空氣行動聯盟創會理事長葉光鵬醫師也召開記者會他們訴求環境部也應該要加嚴管制"},{"start":384.216,"end":402.506,"text":"0.1他沒有舉出許多證據啦剛剛報告稍微提到空氣汙染就會傷害到腦部健康現在證明可能跟成年人的失智也有關聯那當然根據我的醫學背景越細只要越細那無孔不入全身都跑可能進入血液跟組織所以他走到哪裡傷害到哪裡"},{"start":403.446,"end":428.919,"text":"所以這個是就是非常擔心的事而且這個東西不是戴口罩一般的醫療口罩就能夠處理的所以你剛剛也提到既然PM0.1我們今天的主角是來自交通員的這個管制為主那我想說你也開始做了一些研究嘛跟大學合作我剛剛有才聽到這樣的部分這個也很好但是這個我想請教這些策戰離地面有多遠有多遠"},{"start":430.592,"end":447.881,"text":"就是您在合作的單位上他監測的這個0.1他的離地面有多遠就是那個車站就是設在像台大皇宮所那個就是長興街跟基隆路三段那個路口那個就設在直接擺在車站就擺在地面上"},{"start":450,"end":471.315,"text":"離地面比較近我們剛剛提到你這是交通來源嘛你要撤交通來源的污染源一定這個監測站就是不能夠是像一般的公司嗎是這樣做嗎我想學者應該是不會犯下這個錯那你什麼時候要開始擴大你開始起步了有沒有要擴大你的規劃的進度我們現在是這樣就是說因為歐盟也是明年"},{"start":472.156,"end":486.472,"text":"抵著開始要求會員國開始監測我們是台北這邊先這一站然後我們現在是在台中有兩站高雄會設三站就除了剛剛講那個交通站之外另外的這六站"},{"start":487.093,"end":505.147,"text":"我現在不跟你說很嚴肅的問題2020年台東市政府依法開罰綜合1800萬結果當時的環保署卻禁制撤銷罰單那上星期台北高等法院一審判決表明環境部沒有權利撤銷地方政府的裁罰處分那依照地方制度法只有行政院"},{"start":505.868,"end":517.812,"text":"才能夠撤銷變更停止或廢止這事情換句話說當時環保署進行撤銷台中市政府對台電的這個開罰是違法是這個越權是程序不當請問你知道當時是誰做這個決定嗎誰把他撤銷掉跟委員報告要不要處分"},{"start":522.774,"end":540.232,"text":"是這個沒有因為這個審判還在進行當中還沒有終結所以不會在這個時候進行處問我們要講的是這一次的法院的裁定並沒有說台中市是合法的喔他只是說我們在程序上那我要跟委員報告如果委員有時間我可以我會說明"},{"start":542.814,"end":566.725,"text":"我們要去看那個為什麼台中市是違法的我們有一些論述啦但是因為時間上可能不夠說明這個部分我也把今天把這些文字就放在這個投影片上啦這個是最壞的那個官官相互的示範不是絕對不是中央政府跟地方政府全國各縣市的環保局環保單位都必須要維護全民的環境空氣品質很重要但是要依法行政啦"},{"start":567.825,"end":570.926,"text":"要不要讓我列舉一下沒有依法行政的原因法官是從程序面來判斷這件事情但是沒有對實質進行審判是依法執行"},{"start":583.45,"end":608.791,"text":"那台中市民飽受這個中火的這個污染它是污染大戶嘛我們也承認嘛齁那地方政府行使職權為人民主張工作結果你環境部不是支持卻把罰單撤銷掉不是 我們要求地方政府要遵守職權要保障所有事業及國民的所有依法的事情不然我們就亂掉了啊怎麼空瓦就沒有辦法依法去執行啊那個動作就違法程序嘛不 我們必須這是環境部的職責各位報告 這是環境部的職責我們必須要上訴"},{"start":613.342,"end":618.384,"text":"好你要上訴所以換句話說你們沒有認錯你們沒有認錯你們要繼續上訴要耗費這個行政資源護航中國護航中國不是護航誰今天任何一個產業或是任何一個國民在政府不依法行政的時候"},{"start":629.449,"end":656.154,"text":"政府就必須要去導正你們沒有權利做事行政院才有權利做這件事跟委員報告現在只是高等行政法院一審而已還沒有到最終市長你的解釋我們大家大概都會很驚訝反正就是說你已經被法院裁決了但是事實上你們覺得你還要繼續上訴但我們跟律師有討論過律師也是做這樣的建議跟委員報告我們環境部不能失職謝謝委員的指教好謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員謝謝市長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":182,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時13分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：來，次長。"],["沈次長志修：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長好。次長，部長在5月22號行政院會時有提到移動污染源的污染量，已經超過了固定污染源的污染量。他提到這個，延續這個基礎，我想跟環境部討論空氣品質監測站。它有眾多種類，當中交通空氣品質監測的問題，有關中央設置固定的交通空氣品質監測站，當初環境部是選擇在交通流量繁忙的路口，希望它能夠如實反映污染源對於行人還有用路人的暴露狀態，以保護、提醒民眾的健康，但是據我現在的了解，中央設置的監測站只有6座，請問次長，臺灣難道只有這6處是交通繁忙區嗎？","再加上柯文哲當市長的時候，在臺北市設了3站，這是地方政府，桃園市、臺中市也各設1站，所以整個臺灣目前僅僅只有11個固定交通測站，對比臺灣的交通狀況，其實是很不夠的，次長有掌握這個資訊嗎？好，現在不但不夠，而且我要跟次長說明一下，分布很不均！目前環境部設置的固定交通測站，雙北加上桃園有4座、高雄有2座，從新竹到臺南地區甚至1座都沒有，但是臺灣西半部幾乎每個縣市在交通尖峰的時間都會有塞車問題，行人加上機車族每天上下班塞在車陣中，民眾都會長時間暴露在可能致癌的空氣污染中，目前卻只有北高受到比較多的關注，其他縣市好像淪為次等公民，請問次長要承諾改善嗎？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，的確委員所講的數字都對，剛剛提出的指教，全國空氣品質的監測站，中央有78站，地方有34站，如果以專屬的交通測站來講，只有11站，確實是有不足，可是過去對於空氣污染的管制，我們是從工廠，慢慢地逐步到現在，已經把交通當作是比較前面的順序。"],["陳委員昭姿：既然你今天的報告是PM0.1嘛？主要來源是交通，那我們就要開始在這邊加強。"],["沈次長志修：是，交通是要被注意的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，請部長看左邊這張圖，這是新北市永和的交通空品測站，它離地3公尺，就在人行道旁邊，另外右邊這張是頂樓的一般測站，離地大概12公尺以上，我想請問次長，哪一個可以真正反映交通族、通勤族吸進去的空氣呢？是離地3公尺的，還是？"],["沈次長志修：我們都知道排氣的位置跟人體呼吸越接近的地方，當然就能夠精準的反映……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，這是一個共識。我們之前都提到PM2.5是一個長期的毒害，剛剛你也提到說要偵測，包括一氧化碳，甚至氮氧化物等，會有立即的呼吸道感染或心血管的風險，關於交通測站跟一般測站，我現在就暫時這樣分，他們的差別就是以離採樣口距離地面的遠近來比，比起一般的測站，交通測站其實更能夠反映民眾生活當中所暴露的情況，對嗎？"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：你剛剛也提到這一點，它比較能夠測出高風險，但是根據空氣品質監測站設置及監測準則，交通空氣品質監測站應該設置在交通流量比較頻繁或是反映可能因為交通高排放所造成污染的地區，所以次長同意交通空氣品質監測站很重要嗎？您覺得很重要嗎？"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：要不要增加？"],["沈次長志修：我們很務實的去檢討……"],["陳委員昭姿：11站嘛？"],["沈次長志修：過去是從工業污染，現在轉為這個，我們也重視到交通跟民生的部分，所以我們也規劃了，我們在未來，包括像中部跟南部都需要增加。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，日本從一開始就有控管PM2.5，但他同時間會公布一般測站跟交通測站的數據，但是我國目前只有一般空氣測站的法源依據，根據我剛剛提到的空氣品質監測站設置及監測準則，像右邊這個圖，它有明定應設站數的最低數量，但是交通測站的硬體好像不受重視。請問次長同不同意要修正第四條第二項？一般空氣品質監測站以外的其他種類，應該也要把交通測站的應設置站數寫在裡面。因為目前是寫這幾個字，次長有看到嗎？「視實際需要設置之」這幾個字很空泛、很主觀，隨人解釋，你有考慮再修正嗎？把它寫入準則中？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，其實「視實際需要」，我們現在就是實際需要的時候，所以這個沒有問題……"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有，次長，很空泛啦！實際需要很空泛啊！"],["沈次長志修：我們會每次一直改，我們保留這樣的東西，其實這樣的文字就有這樣的機制在……"],["陳委員昭姿：尤其我們今天談交通嘛！今天我們討論的主題就是來自交通的污染源，這個部分之前就有了，一般測站就有數字的規定，minimum最少要怎麼放，這個地方要考慮一下，好嗎？有問題嗎？"],["沈次長志修：我們就實際需要來檢討。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，昨天有多位醫師跟環保團體召開記者會，呼籲PM2.5應該要加嚴管制到PM0.1，剛剛主席開宗明義也有講。上週劉建國召委也跟台灣健康空氣行動聯盟創會理事長葉光芃醫師召開記者會，他們訴求環境部也應該要加嚴管制PM0.1，他們有舉出許多證據，包括剛剛報告稍微提到空氣污染會傷害到腦部健康，現在證明可能跟成年人的失智也有關聯，當然根據我的醫學背景，只要越細，就無孔不入全身都跑，可能進入血液跟組織，所以它走到哪裡傷害到哪裡，所以這就是讓人非常擔心的事，而且這個東西不是戴一般醫療口罩就能夠處理的。你剛剛也提到，既然今天的主角PM0.1主要來自交通污染，你們也跟大學合作開始做了一些研究，我剛剛才聽到有這樣的部分，這個也很好，但是我想請教這些測站離地面有多遠？就是合作單位監測PM0.1的測站離地面有多遠？"],["沈次長志修：像臺大環工所的測站，就是設在長興街跟基隆路三段路口，測站就直接擺在地面上……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以是離地面比較近的？"],["沈次長志修：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為我們剛剛提到，這是以交通污染為主要來源，你要測來自交通的污染源，監測站就不能夠像一般觀測空污的做法，是這樣做嗎？"],["沈次長志修：是的。"],["陳委員昭姿：我想學者應該不會犯下這個錯，那什麼時候要開始擴大？開始起步了，有沒有要擴大？規劃的進度如何？"],["沈次長志修：我們現在是這樣，因為歐盟也是明年底才開始要求會員國去監測嘛……"],["陳委員昭姿：好啦！盡量趕上，因為我們常常自許我們是……"],["沈次長志修：我們是臺北先設1站，現在是臺中有2站，高雄會設3站，就除了剛剛講的交通站之外，另外的這6站。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，我現在要跟你說一個很嚴肅的問題。2020年臺中市政府依法開罰中火1,800萬，結果當時的環保署卻逕自撤銷罰單，上星期臺北高等法院一審判決表明環境部沒有權力撤銷地方政府的裁罰處分，依地方制度法只有行政院才能夠撤銷、變更、停止或廢止。換句話說，當時環保署進行撤銷臺中市政府對台電的開罰是違法、是越權、是程序不當，請問你知道當時是誰做這個決定嗎？誰把它撤銷掉？要不要處分？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，因為這個審判還在進行當中，還沒有終結，所以不會在這個時候進行處分。我們要講的是，這次法院的裁定，並沒有說臺中市政府是合法的，它只是說我們在程序上……我要跟委員報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：程序問題就是出問題啊！"],["沈次長志修：如果委員有時間，我可以說明……"],["陳委員昭姿：竟然罰單出來，你就把它撤掉。"],["沈次長志修：NO！我們要去看為什麼臺中市政府是違法的？我們有一些論述，但是因為時間上可能不夠說明這個部分……"],["陳委員昭姿：我也盡量把這些文字就放在這個投影片上。"],["沈次長志修：是這樣子，委員，簡單講……"],["陳委員昭姿：這是最壞的官官相護示範。"],["沈次長志修：不是，絕對不是，中央政府跟地方政府全國各縣市的環保局、環保單位都必須要維護全民的環境空氣品質，很重要，但是要依法行政……"],["陳委員昭姿：中火……"],["沈次長志修：要不要讓我列舉一下，沒有依法行政原因……"],["陳委員昭姿：難道法官沒依法嗎？"],["沈次長志修：不，法官是從程序面來判斷這件事情，但是沒有對實質進行審判。"],["陳委員昭姿：空污是地方自治的事項，是地方政府依照空污法開罰……"],["沈次長志修：是，我們尊重，的確。"],["陳委員昭姿：它是依法執行，臺中市民飽受中火的污染，它是污染大戶，我們也承認，地方政府行使職權，為人民主張公道，結果環境部不是支持，卻把罰單撤銷掉。"],["沈次長志修：不是，我們要求地方政府開罰之前，要保障所有事業及國民的事情依法，不然就亂掉了，空污法就沒有辦法依法執行啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：那個動作就違法程序，我是引用法官的判決在跟你講話耶！"],["沈次長志修：不，跟委員報告，這是環境部的職責，我們必須要上訴。"],["陳委員昭姿：你要上訴，換句話說，你們沒有認錯？"],["沈次長志修：不是，這沒有錯……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們要繼續上訴、要耗費資源，護航中火。"],["沈次長志修：這是程序上的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：護航中火，所以你們反對法官……"],["沈次長志修：不是護航誰，今天任何一個產業或是任何一個國民被地方政府不依法行政的時候，中央政府就必須要導正。"],["陳委員昭姿：你們違反地方自治法，你們沒有權力做，是行政院才有權力做這件事，但是你做……"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，現在只是高等行政法院一審而已，還沒有到最終，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，聽了你的解釋大家大概都會很驚訝，雖然已經被法院裁決了，但是事實上你們還要繼續上訴，很遺憾、非常遺憾。"],["沈次長志修：但我們跟律師有討論過，律師也是這樣建議。環境部不能失職，謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝次長。","接下來請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":178,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","麥玉珍","陳瑩","楊曜","廖偉翔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、交通部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部就「因應歐盟管制超細懸浮微粒\n（PM0.1），我國空污管制政策如何精進、提升，保障國人健康安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146302_00002"}}}