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00:01:08,299\n這個中火影響人民的健康是大家都知道的事情你就算到WHO的網站你也會看到不管是PM多少都跟PowerGeneration有相關可是你一直在強調這些移動交通的污染源我認為台中市民看起來會非常的寒心畢竟自從核電研議之後他們每天都會上台電的網站去看\n\n4\n00:01:09,119 --> 00:01:34,524\n白天的時候就突破了九成夜晚沒有綠電可以支援的時候更是到95%變成一個火燒島剛剛也有告訴你了這幾天聯合報就有一個專題講到我們國人的十大死因幾乎十大死因都跟空污有相關喔空污影響了什麼新血管這是現任的衛福部部長以前當委員的時候質詢的影響到肺\n\n5\n00:01:37,125 --> 00:01:56,494\n影響到氣喘影響到肺部的疾病影響到腦等等全身各處都跟空污有相關我想知道當時呢你們對於他廢水的這個懸浮物被裁罰了七次你們不講話可是對於這個超燃煤被判你們就開始為他講話請問你的標準何在啊\n\n6\n00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:19,092\n我跟委員報告一下謝謝委員關心這個議題那現在大家都聚焦在這個減煤這個事情上面的確煤的使用量減少那我們邏輯去推斷就是它應該排污會減少是這樣的想法\n\n7\n00:02:19,853 --> 00:02:47,212\n但是很重要就是說空氣污染防治不是只有減少燃料的使用還有一個就是污染防治設備技術的提升能夠讓它排出來的污染量降低這個才是最終對環境的影響我跟委員報告一下今天沒有達到40%減煤因此台電被台中市政府所處罰了它的減量大概是31點多但是\n\n8\n00:02:48,012 --> 00:03:10,804\n每一個減量31點多但是有個數據可能大家都不清楚的我借這個機會跟大家報告但是不要又講說環境部又在幫台電復航我講的是事實啊105年到113年台電投入了740億做污染防治設備的提升以至於他們空污的總排放量從3.8萬公噸降到113年只有9000多公噸\n\n9\n00:03:14,726 --> 00:03:37,584\n9000多公噸減排了76%減排真正排出來的台式對市民的影響用多少燃料那個只是一個管制在前端後端的管制才是最重要的一個結果啊我跟你說台中人都知道2022年台中的電廠是全世界這是世界第一全世界的碳排第一名\n\n10\n00:03:38,385 --> 00:04:05,067\n好你現在用的訴訟的這些費用你知道來自於哪裡嗎你訴訟的費用來自於空污防治基金你自己不覺得很矛盾嗎空污防治基金是應該要幫助人民減少空污結果他們是用他們的納稅錢交給你打這個行政訴訟然後增加他們的空污拿來爭取中火可以超量的燃煤很明顯那個時候他們就是超量的燃煤嘛\n\n11\n00:04:05,834 --> 00:04:20,558\n跟委員報告一下108年的11月20號台中市政府發文給台電公司他的文裡面寫的是說他兩年前核給他的許可證的內容上面的文字寫從109年1月26日起\n\n12\n00:04:24,639 --> 00:04:39,220\n他把它改為自109年1月26日前這個差別在哪裡你知道嗎這個差別在於本來是往後一年他必須要減40%的量他變成只剩下兩個月的時間去減根本來不及啊\n\n13\n00:04:39,941 --> 00:05:00,721\n那它的理由是說它叫做物善一個政府可以用物善去對任何一個事業或者對任何一個民眾的行為我不曉得我們如果今天站在一個空氣污染防治法的上級的機關我們也有監督的責任耶那我們如果都不監督那我們是不是就失職了呢\n\n14\n00:05:01,461 --> 00:05:22,819\n我是真的很遺憾我已經告訴你當時有多項他們被裁罰包括廢水懸浮固體七度超標包括超燃煤也超標廢水你就不去管燃煤你就拼命的上訴我很遺憾環境部現在沒有站在台中人民健康的立場而是站在中火的立場\n\n15\n00:05:25,916 --> 00:05:41,135\n我還是在這邊希望你們可以去體會住在台中人那邊的心情好嗎我問下一題這邊是也是最近我們高雄發現到這你應該知道我們高雄有這個地方吧我先播影片給你看\n\n16\n00:06:49,328 --> 00:07:03,274\n這邊是我們高雄大樹區的河山裡從剛剛的中火一直到這個滿山遍谷的光電板都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的現在那邊的居民吃飯是配沙\n\n17\n00:07:04,734 --> 00:07:12,999\n因為他們要把山頭先弄平弄平以後去填這個窪地比較低窪的地方黃沙滾滾吃飯都配沙還污染了他們的水源地本來這個山坡地是以種玉荷包鳳梨還有水源水果等等文明佔地50億公頃但是自來水公司2022年為了要資產活化而且配合政府的綠能綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電\n\n18\n00:07:33,572 --> 00:07:44,975\n這不是什麼能源轉型啦這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我想知道你們未來對這件事情會有什麼做法我想政府應該也要行政啦齁那這個事情是能源署這邊也許可以做一下說明齁為什麼會造成這樣的一個結果可不可以請能源署署長好簡短簡短\n\n19\n00:08:04,233 --> 00:08:11,122\n這個高雄市政府他違反水保法的規定已經撤銷執照那我們昨天也已經撤銷本案的抽涉許可\n\n20\n00:08:11,550 --> 00:08:37,257\n第一期還會繼續喔你知道吧宇王宮就是他看他違反水保法因為他剛才是在水保施工的時候他有很多違反水保法那高雄市政府處理罰他七次那我們也處理過一次那他沒有改善所以現在會就他違規違法的部分那麼高雄市政府已經撤銷他執照我們也撤銷他仇社許可我希望你這樣子的態度也可以發揮在總夥那次長我們回來討論這個\n\n21\n00:08:41,567 --> 00:08:58,039\n我們2015有幫我們的太陽能光電板定一個目標它必須達到20GW但它中間有調整過所以最後我們希望太陽能的地面型可以達到12GW但你知道我們現在還差多少嗎\n\n22\n00:09:02,479 --> 00:09:24,347\n報告我們2026年11月要達到20GW我們目前做了14.8GW那我們大概還差五點多我是說地面型你還差多少地面型地面型事實上就是這主要的大概有4G都是來自於地面型屋頂型的目前比較少因為屋頂型基本上已經達標了\n\n23\n00:09:25,942 --> 00:09:52,111\n無敵型達標我知道地面型我幫你們算了一下還缺6.7GW我昨天還特別去問了經濟部經濟部給我們的條件是說考量太陽能模板的發電效益還有它暗場邊界可能會退縮以及它要留一些運作維修的空間保留排除既有雜項工作物暗場的遮蔭等等的因素每千瓦所需的空間約為一公頃\n\n24\n00:09:53,812 --> 00:10:11,443\n所以我們還需要6700萬公頃這樣子的土地我光看到那個畫面大家觸目驚心只有51公頃要達到經濟部的目標還要上百倍剛剛看到的影片這樣子的土地被移平我幫你換算一下\n\n25\n00:10:12,424 --> 00:10:27,415\n算起來是0.25四分之一個台北市1400座的大巨蛋3.4個左營區258座大安森林公園我們真的有這麼多地我們真的有這麼多地面可以放光電板嗎\n\n26\n00:10:28,915 --> 00:10:42,098\n目前我們設置的地區大概就是在所謂地利不足的地方那我們有特別分另外我們現在用的土地通常不是農地那我們現在推的餘電公升也就是說在餘溫上那麼來設太陽光墊同時一方面養魚所謂一方面做太陽光墊我剛剛已經給你看了那個才51公頃我們用空拍機拍過去51公頃你現在跟我說你要用餘溫\n\n27\n00:10:55,561 --> 00:11:17,699\n小塊小塊我們還缺幾百個剛那樣子的畫面不會我們現在推的主要是漁電工生是跟農委會合作的那剛才那個當然是一個違法的案例那我們剛才報告我們撤銷它的籌設許可但是我們未來做的還是希望能源跟我具體先給你一個建議我們看一下這邊\n\n28\n00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:43,870\n等一下我會提出一個臨時提案這邊我們第六第七他就是因為第六條很久以前蘇清泉招委也有諮詢過他們屏東由整個台塘的地全部都砍樹拿來放光電板因為屬於公有土地國營事業但經能源主管經關同意者不在此限不在環評的限制位於山坡地\n\n29\n00:11:45,110 --> 00:12:09,688\n設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評才需要做環評那你認為未來不會發生化整為零的現象嗎報告不會這個我們會嚴格把關那剛才講的這個林地事實上這個等一下你要怎麼嚴格把關你先講你要怎麼嚴格把關所以每一個案我們會去審查然後我們會找可是山坡壁如果它在15公頃以下你要怎麼審查\n\n30\n00:12:11,324 --> 00:12:26,173\n我們還是會審查我們事實上每一個案我們審查的時候都有找相關單位來看這一個對環境的生態是不是在敏感地區這個還是要檢查如果他是在環境生態敏感地區他本來依照其他的規定他就要做\n\n31\n00:12:27,855 --> 00:12:40,369\n環評那這是整個這個環評英師環評項目中間的一條但是其他的他比如說他不僅有生態敏感或是有環境敏感地質敏感這些他還是要依照其他規定來做\n\n32\n00:12:41,510 --> 00:13:04,541\n不一定會有所以等一下我的臨時提案會提出一個報告我們希望不要有漏洞因為我已經把你的漏洞圈起來了我們就是因為之前那個51公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情居民現在擔心自己土石流啊不會所以我剛才講他那個是一個違法的案件我們已經取消他了還有其他的案件我們都在這邊質詢過彭部長好先這樣子謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6656\t9159\t主席 各位委員 各位官員我想請次長\n16744\t44323\t市長你好您好剛剛非常遺憾有看到陳昭芝委員關於詢問您這個台中市政府跟環境部之間的訴訟這個已經判決雖然一審判決啊台灣高等法院行政法院一審判決說環境部是沒有這個職責的環境部也不應該去撤銷這個罰單那你剛剛已經很明確的說到了環境部會上訴嘛是不是是那我們是很遺憾因為\n46410\t68299\t這個中火影響人民的健康是大家都知道的事情你就算到WHO的網站你也會看到不管是PM多少都跟Power Generation有相關可是你一直在強調這些移動交通的污染源我認為台中市民看起來會非常的寒心畢竟自從核電研議之後他們每天都會上台電的網站去看\n69119\t94524\t白天的時候就突破了九成夜晚沒有綠電可以支援的時候更是到95%變成一個火燒島剛剛也有告訴你了這幾天聯合報就有一個專題講到我們國人的十大死因幾乎十大死因都跟空污有相關喔空污影響了什麼新血管這是現任的衛福部部長以前當委員的時候質詢的影響到肺\n97125\t116494\t影響到氣喘 影響到肺部的疾病 影響到腦等等全身各處都跟空污有相關我想知道當時呢你們對於他廢水的這個懸浮物被裁罰了七次你們不講話可是對於這個超燃煤被判你們就開始為他講話 請問你的標準何在啊\n123800\t139092\t我跟委員報告一下謝謝委員關心這個議題那現在大家都聚焦在這個減煤這個事情上面的確煤的使用量減少那我們邏輯去推斷就是它應該排污會減少是這樣的想法\n139853\t167212\t但是很重要就是說空氣污染防治不是只有減少燃料的使用還有一個就是污染防治設備技術的提升能夠讓它排出來的污染量降低這個才是最終對環境的影響我跟委員報告一下今天沒有達到40%減煤因此台電被台中市政府所處罰了它的減量大概是31點多但是\n168012\t190804\t每一個減量31點多但是有個數據可能大家都不清楚的我借這個機會跟大家報告但是不要又講說環境部又在幫台電復航我講的是事實啊105年到113年台電投入了740億做污染防治設備的提升以至於他們空污的總排放量從3.8萬公噸降到113年只有9000多公噸\n194726\t217584\t9000多公噸減排了76%減排真正排出來的台式對市民的影響用多少燃料那個只是一個管制在前端後端的管制才是最重要的一個結果啊我跟你說台中人都知道2022年台中的電廠是全世界這是世界第一全世界的碳排第一名\n218385\t245067\t好 你現在用的訴訟的這些費用你知道來自於哪裡嗎你訴訟的費用來自於空污防治基金你自己不覺得很矛盾嗎空污防治基金是應該要幫助人民減少空污結果他們是用他們的納稅錢交給你打這個行政訴訟然後增加他們的空污拿來爭取中火可以超量的燃煤很明顯那個時候他們就是超量的燃煤嘛\n245834\t260558\t跟委員報告一下108年的11月20號台中市政府發文給台電公司他的文裡面寫的是說他兩年前核給他的許可證的內容上面的文字寫從109年1月26日起\n264639\t279220\t他把它改為自109年1月26日前這個差別在哪裡你知道嗎這個差別在於本來是往後一年他必須要減40%的量他變成只剩下兩個月的時間去減根本來不及啊\n279941\t300721\t那它的理由是說它叫做物善一個政府可以用物善去對任何一個事業或者對任何一個民眾的行為我不曉得我們如果今天站在一個空氣污染防治法的上級的機關我們也有監督的責任耶那我們如果都不監督那我們是不是就失職了呢\n301461\t322819\t我是真的很遺憾 我已經告訴你當時有多項他們被裁罰包括廢水懸浮固體 七度超標包括超燃煤也超標廢水你就不去管 燃煤你就拼命的上訴我很遺憾環境部現在沒有站在台中人民健康的立場而是站在中火的立場\n325916\t341135\t我還是在這邊希望你們可以去體會住在台中人那邊的心情好嗎我問下一題這邊是也是最近我們高雄發現到這你應該知道我們高雄有這個地方吧我先播影片給你看\n409328\t423274\t這邊是我們高雄大樹區的河山裡從剛剛的中火一直到這個滿山遍谷的光電板都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的現在那邊的居民吃飯是配沙\n424734\t432999\t因為他們要把山頭先弄平 弄平以後去填這個窪地比較低窪的地方黃沙滾滾 吃飯都配沙 還污染了他們的水源地本來這個山坡地是以種玉荷包 鳳梨還有水源 水果等等文明佔地50億公頃但是自來水公司2022年為了要資產活化而且配合政府的綠能 綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電\n453572\t464975\t這不是什麼能源轉型啦這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我想知道你們未來對這件事情會有什麼做法我想政府應該也要行政啦齁那這個事情是能源署這邊也許可以做一下說明齁為什麼會造成這樣的一個結果可不可以請能源署署長好 簡短 簡短\n484233\t491122\t這個高雄市政府他違反水保法的規定已經撤銷執照那我們昨天也已經撤銷本案的抽涉許可\n491550\t517257\t第一期還會繼續喔你知道吧宇王宮就是他看他違反水保法因為他剛才是在水保施工的時候他有很多違反水保法那高雄市政府處理罰他七次那我們也處理過一次那他沒有改善所以現在會就他違規違法的部分那麼高雄市政府已經撤銷他執照我們也撤銷他仇社許可我希望你這樣子的態度也可以發揮在總夥那次長我們回來討論這個\n521567\t538039\t我們2015有幫我們的太陽能光電板定一個目標它必須達到20GW但它中間有調整過所以最後我們希望太陽能的地面型可以達到12GW但你知道我們現在還差多少嗎\n542479\t564347\t報告我們2026年11月要達到20GW我們目前做了14.8GW那我們大概還差五點多我是說地面型你還差多少地面型地面型事實上就是這主要的大概有4G都是來自於地面型屋頂型的目前比較少因為屋頂型基本上已經達標了\n565942\t592111\t無敵型達標我知道地面型我幫你們算了一下還缺6.7GW我昨天還特別去問了經濟部經濟部給我們的條件是說考量太陽能模板的發電效益還有它暗場邊界可能會退縮以及它要留一些運作維修的空間保留排除既有雜項工作物暗場的遮蔭等等的因素每千瓦所需的空間約為一公頃\n593812\t611443\t所以我們還需要6700萬公頃這樣子的土地我光看到那個畫面大家觸目驚心只有51公頃要達到經濟部的目標還要上百倍剛剛看到的影片這樣子的土地被移平我幫你換算一下\n612424\t627415\t算起來是0.25 四分之一個台北市1400座的大巨蛋3.4個左營區258座大安森林公園我們真的有這麼多地我們真的有這麼多地面可以放光電板嗎\n628915\t642098\t目前我們設置的地區大概就是在所謂地利不足的地方那我們有特別分另外我們現在用的土地通常不是農地那我們現在推的餘電公升也就是說在餘溫上那麼來設太陽光墊同時一方面養魚所謂一方面做太陽光墊我剛剛已經給你看了那個才51公頃我們用空拍機拍過去 51公頃你現在跟我說你要用餘溫\n655561\t677699\t小塊小塊 我們還缺幾百個剛那樣子的畫面不會 我們現在推的主要是漁電工生是跟農委會合作的那剛才那個當然是一個違法的案例那我們剛才報告我們撤銷它的籌設許可但是我們未來做的還是希望能源跟我具體先給你一個建議 我們看一下這邊\n678920\t703870\t等一下我會提出一個臨時提案這邊我們第六 第七 他就是因為第六條很久以前蘇清泉招委也有諮詢過他們屏東由整個台塘的地全部都砍樹拿來放光電板因為屬於公有土地 國營事業但經能源主管 經關同意者不在此限 不在環評的限制位於山坡地\n705110\t729688\t設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評 才需要做環評那你認為未來不會發生化整為零的現象嗎報告不會 這個我們會嚴格把關那剛才講的這個林地 事實上這個等一下你要怎麼嚴格把關 你先講你要怎麼嚴格把關所以每一個案我們會去審查 然後我們會找可是山坡壁如果它在15公頃以下你要怎麼審查\n731324\t746173\t我們還是會審查我們事實上每一個案我們審查的時候都有找相關單位來看這一個對環境的生態是不是在敏感地區這個還是要檢查如果他是在環境生態敏感地區他本來依照其他的規定他就要做\n747855\t760369\t環評那這是整個這個環評英師環評項目中間的一條但是其他的他比如說他不僅有生態敏感或是有環境敏感地質敏感這些他還是要依照其他規定來做\n761510\t784541\t不一定會有所以等一下我的臨時提案會提出一個報告我們希望不要有漏洞因為我已經把你的漏洞圈起來了我們就是因為之前那個51公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情居民現在擔心自己土石流啊不會所以我剛才講他那個是一個違法的案件我們已經取消他了還有其他的案件我們都在這邊質詢過彭部長好先這樣子 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"主席 各位委員 各位官員我想請次長\n市長你好您好剛剛非常遺憾有看到陳昭芝委員關於詢問您這個台中市政府跟環境部之間的訴訟這個已經判決雖然一審判決啊台灣高等法院行政法院一審判決說環境部是沒有這個職責的環境部也不應該去撤銷這個罰單那你剛剛已經很明確的說到了環境部會上訴嘛是不是是那我們是很遺憾因為\n這個中火影響人民的健康是大家都知道的事情你就算到WHO的網站你也會看到不管是PM多少都跟Power Generation有相關可是你一直在強調這些移動交通的污染源我認為台中市民看起來會非常的寒心畢竟自從核電研議之後他們每天都會上台電的網站去看\n白天的時候就突破了九成夜晚沒有綠電可以支援的時候更是到95%變成一個火燒島剛剛也有告訴你了這幾天聯合報就有一個專題講到我們國人的十大死因幾乎十大死因都跟空污有相關喔空污影響了什麼新血管這是現任的衛福部部長以前當委員的時候質詢的影響到肺\n影響到氣喘 影響到肺部的疾病 影響到腦等等全身各處都跟空污有相關我想知道當時呢你們對於他廢水的這個懸浮物被裁罰了七次你們不講話可是對於這個超燃煤被判你們就開始為他講話 請問你的標準何在啊\n我跟委員報告一下謝謝委員關心這個議題那現在大家都聚焦在這個減煤這個事情上面的確煤的使用量減少那我們邏輯去推斷就是它應該排污會減少是這樣的想法\n但是很重要就是說空氣污染防治不是只有減少燃料的使用還有一個就是污染防治設備技術的提升能夠讓它排出來的污染量降低這個才是最終對環境的影響我跟委員報告一下今天沒有達到40%減煤因此台電被台中市政府所處罰了它的減量大概是31點多但是\n每一個減量31點多但是有個數據可能大家都不清楚的我借這個機會跟大家報告但是不要又講說環境部又在幫台電復航我講的是事實啊105年到113年台電投入了740億做污染防治設備的提升以至於他們空污的總排放量從3.8萬公噸降到113年只有9000多公噸\n9000多公噸減排了76%減排真正排出來的台式對市民的影響用多少燃料那個只是一個管制在前端後端的管制才是最重要的一個結果啊我跟你說台中人都知道2022年台中的電廠是全世界這是世界第一全世界的碳排第一名\n好 你現在用的訴訟的這些費用你知道來自於哪裡嗎你訴訟的費用來自於空污防治基金你自己不覺得很矛盾嗎空污防治基金是應該要幫助人民減少空污結果他們是用他們的納稅錢交給你打這個行政訴訟然後增加他們的空污拿來爭取中火可以超量的燃煤很明顯那個時候他們就是超量的燃煤嘛\n跟委員報告一下108年的11月20號台中市政府發文給台電公司他的文裡面寫的是說他兩年前核給他的許可證的內容上面的文字寫從109年1月26日起\n他把它改為自109年1月26日前這個差別在哪裡你知道嗎這個差別在於本來是往後一年他必須要減40%的量他變成只剩下兩個月的時間去減根本來不及啊\n那它的理由是說它叫做物善一個政府可以用物善去對任何一個事業或者對任何一個民眾的行為我不曉得我們如果今天站在一個空氣污染防治法的上級的機關我們也有監督的責任耶那我們如果都不監督那我們是不是就失職了呢\n我是真的很遺憾 我已經告訴你當時有多項他們被裁罰包括廢水懸浮固體 七度超標包括超燃煤也超標廢水你就不去管 燃煤你就拼命的上訴我很遺憾環境部現在沒有站在台中人民健康的立場而是站在中火的立場\n我還是在這邊希望你們可以去體會住在台中人那邊的心情好嗎我問下一題這邊是也是最近我們高雄發現到這你應該知道我們高雄有這個地方吧我先播影片給你看\n這邊是我們高雄大樹區的河山裡從剛剛的中火一直到這個滿山遍谷的光電板都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的現在那邊的居民吃飯是配沙\n因為他們要把山頭先弄平 弄平以後去填這個窪地比較低窪的地方黃沙滾滾 吃飯都配沙 還污染了他們的水源地本來這個山坡地是以種玉荷包 鳳梨還有水源 水果等等文明佔地50億公頃但是自來水公司2022年為了要資產活化而且配合政府的綠能 綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電\n這不是什麼能源轉型啦這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我想知道你們未來對這件事情會有什麼做法我想政府應該也要行政啦齁那這個事情是能源署這邊也許可以做一下說明齁為什麼會造成這樣的一個結果可不可以請能源署署長好 簡短 簡短\n這個高雄市政府他違反水保法的規定已經撤銷執照那我們昨天也已經撤銷本案的抽涉許可\n第一期還會繼續喔你知道吧宇王宮就是他看他違反水保法因為他剛才是在水保施工的時候他有很多違反水保法那高雄市政府處理罰他七次那我們也處理過一次那他沒有改善所以現在會就他違規違法的部分那麼高雄市政府已經撤銷他執照我們也撤銷他仇社許可我希望你這樣子的態度也可以發揮在總夥那次長我們回來討論這個\n我們2015有幫我們的太陽能光電板定一個目標它必須達到20GW但它中間有調整過所以最後我們希望太陽能的地面型可以達到12GW但你知道我們現在還差多少嗎\n報告我們2026年11月要達到20GW我們目前做了14.8GW那我們大概還差五點多我是說地面型你還差多少地面型地面型事實上就是這主要的大概有4G都是來自於地面型屋頂型的目前比較少因為屋頂型基本上已經達標了\n無敵型達標我知道地面型我幫你們算了一下還缺6.7GW我昨天還特別去問了經濟部經濟部給我們的條件是說考量太陽能模板的發電效益還有它暗場邊界可能會退縮以及它要留一些運作維修的空間保留排除既有雜項工作物暗場的遮蔭等等的因素每千瓦所需的空間約為一公頃\n所以我們還需要6700萬公頃這樣子的土地我光看到那個畫面大家觸目驚心只有51公頃要達到經濟部的目標還要上百倍剛剛看到的影片這樣子的土地被移平我幫你換算一下\n算起來是0.25 四分之一個台北市1400座的大巨蛋3.4個左營區258座大安森林公園我們真的有這麼多地我們真的有這麼多地面可以放光電板嗎\n目前我們設置的地區大概就是在所謂地利不足的地方那我們有特別分另外我們現在用的土地通常不是農地那我們現在推的餘電公升也就是說在餘溫上那麼來設太陽光墊同時一方面養魚所謂一方面做太陽光墊我剛剛已經給你看了那個才51公頃我們用空拍機拍過去 51公頃你現在跟我說你要用餘溫\n小塊小塊 我們還缺幾百個剛那樣子的畫面不會 我們現在推的主要是漁電工生是跟農委會合作的那剛才那個當然是一個違法的案例那我們剛才報告我們撤銷它的籌設許可但是我們未來做的還是希望能源跟我具體先給你一個建議 我們看一下這邊\n等一下我會提出一個臨時提案這邊我們第六 第七 他就是因為第六條很久以前蘇清泉招委也有諮詢過他們屏東由整個台塘的地全部都砍樹拿來放光電板因為屬於公有土地 國營事業但經能源主管 經關同意者不在此限 不在環評的限制位於山坡地\n設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評 才需要做環評那你認為未來不會發生化整為零的現象嗎報告不會 這個我們會嚴格把關那剛才講的這個林地 事實上這個等一下你要怎麼嚴格把關 你先講你要怎麼嚴格把關所以每一個案我們會去審查 然後我們會找可是山坡壁如果它在15公頃以下你要怎麼審查\n我們還是會審查我們事實上每一個案我們審查的時候都有找相關單位來看這一個對環境的生態是不是在敏感地區這個還是要檢查如果他是在環境生態敏感地區他本來依照其他的規定他就要做\n環評那這是整個這個環評英師環評項目中間的一條但是其他的他比如說他不僅有生態敏感或是有環境敏感地質敏感這些他還是要依照其他規定來做\n不一定會有所以等一下我的臨時提案會提出一個報告我們希望不要有漏洞因為我已經把你的漏洞圈起來了我們就是因為之前那個51公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情居民現在擔心自己土石流啊不會所以我剛才講他那個是一個違法的案件我們已經取消他了還有其他的案件我們都在這邊質詢過彭部長好先這樣子 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.656 --> 00:09.159\n主席各位委員各位官員我想請次長\n\n00:16.744 --> 00:44.323\n市長你好您好剛剛非常遺憾有看到陳昭芝委員關於詢問您這個台中市政府跟環境部之間的訴訟這個已經判決雖然一審判決啊台灣高等法院行政法院一審判決說環境部是沒有這個職責的環境部也不應該去撤銷這個罰單那你剛剛已經很明確的說到了環境部會上訴嘛是不是是那我們是很遺憾因為\n\n00:46.410 --> 01:08.299\n這個中火影響人民的健康是大家都知道的事情你就算到WHO的網站你也會看到不管是PM多少都跟PowerGeneration有相關可是你一直在強調這些移動交通的污染源我認為台中市民看起來會非常的寒心畢竟自從核電研議之後他們每天都會上台電的網站去看\n\n01:09.119 --> 01:34.524\n白天的時候就突破了九成夜晚沒有綠電可以支援的時候更是到95%變成一個火燒島剛剛也有告訴你了這幾天聯合報就有一個專題講到我們國人的十大死因幾乎十大死因都跟空污有相關喔空污影響了什麼新血管這是現任的衛福部部長以前當委員的時候質詢的影響到肺\n\n01:37.125 --> 01:56.494\n影響到氣喘影響到肺部的疾病影響到腦等等全身各處都跟空污有相關我想知道當時呢你們對於他廢水的這個懸浮物被裁罰了七次你們不講話可是對於這個超燃煤被判你們就開始為他講話請問你的標準何在啊\n\n02:03.800 --> 02:19.092\n我跟委員報告一下謝謝委員關心這個議題那現在大家都聚焦在這個減煤這個事情上面的確煤的使用量減少那我們邏輯去推斷就是它應該排污會減少是這樣的想法\n\n02:19.853 --> 02:47.212\n但是很重要就是說空氣污染防治不是只有減少燃料的使用還有一個就是污染防治設備技術的提升能夠讓它排出來的污染量降低這個才是最終對環境的影響我跟委員報告一下今天沒有達到40%減煤因此台電被台中市政府所處罰了它的減量大概是31點多但是\n\n02:48.012 --> 03:10.804\n每一個減量31點多但是有個數據可能大家都不清楚的我借這個機會跟大家報告但是不要又講說環境部又在幫台電復航我講的是事實啊105年到113年台電投入了740億做污染防治設備的提升以至於他們空污的總排放量從3.8萬公噸降到113年只有9000多公噸\n\n03:14.726 --> 03:37.584\n9000多公噸減排了76%減排真正排出來的台式對市民的影響用多少燃料那個只是一個管制在前端後端的管制才是最重要的一個結果啊我跟你說台中人都知道2022年台中的電廠是全世界這是世界第一全世界的碳排第一名\n\n03:38.385 --> 04:05.067\n好你現在用的訴訟的這些費用你知道來自於哪裡嗎你訴訟的費用來自於空污防治基金你自己不覺得很矛盾嗎空污防治基金是應該要幫助人民減少空污結果他們是用他們的納稅錢交給你打這個行政訴訟然後增加他們的空污拿來爭取中火可以超量的燃煤很明顯那個時候他們就是超量的燃煤嘛\n\n04:05.834 --> 04:20.558\n跟委員報告一下108年的11月20號台中市政府發文給台電公司他的文裡面寫的是說他兩年前核給他的許可證的內容上面的文字寫從109年1月26日起\n\n04:24.639 --> 04:39.220\n他把它改為自109年1月26日前這個差別在哪裡你知道嗎這個差別在於本來是往後一年他必須要減40%的量他變成只剩下兩個月的時間去減根本來不及啊\n\n04:39.941 --> 05:00.721\n那它的理由是說它叫做物善一個政府可以用物善去對任何一個事業或者對任何一個民眾的行為我不曉得我們如果今天站在一個空氣污染防治法的上級的機關我們也有監督的責任耶那我們如果都不監督那我們是不是就失職了呢\n\n05:01.461 --> 05:22.819\n我是真的很遺憾我已經告訴你當時有多項他們被裁罰包括廢水懸浮固體七度超標包括超燃煤也超標廢水你就不去管燃煤你就拼命的上訴我很遺憾環境部現在沒有站在台中人民健康的立場而是站在中火的立場\n\n05:25.916 --> 05:41.135\n我還是在這邊希望你們可以去體會住在台中人那邊的心情好嗎我問下一題這邊是也是最近我們高雄發現到這你應該知道我們高雄有這個地方吧我先播影片給你看\n\n06:49.328 --> 07:03.274\n這邊是我們高雄大樹區的河山裡從剛剛的中火一直到這個滿山遍谷的光電板都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的現在那邊的居民吃飯是配沙\n\n07:04.734 --> 07:12.999\n因為他們要把山頭先弄平弄平以後去填這個窪地比較低窪的地方黃沙滾滾吃飯都配沙還污染了他們的水源地本來這個山坡地是以種玉荷包鳳梨還有水源水果等等文明佔地50億公頃但是自來水公司2022年為了要資產活化而且配合政府的綠能綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電\n\n07:33.572 --> 07:44.975\n這不是什麼能源轉型啦這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我想知道你們未來對這件事情會有什麼做法我想政府應該也要行政啦齁那這個事情是能源署這邊也許可以做一下說明齁為什麼會造成這樣的一個結果可不可以請能源署署長好簡短簡短\n\n08:04.233 --> 08:11.122\n這個高雄市政府他違反水保法的規定已經撤銷執照那我們昨天也已經撤銷本案的抽涉許可\n\n08:11.550 --> 08:37.257\n第一期還會繼續喔你知道吧宇王宮就是他看他違反水保法因為他剛才是在水保施工的時候他有很多違反水保法那高雄市政府處理罰他七次那我們也處理過一次那他沒有改善所以現在會就他違規違法的部分那麼高雄市政府已經撤銷他執照我們也撤銷他仇社許可我希望你這樣子的態度也可以發揮在總夥那次長我們回來討論這個\n\n08:41.567 --> 08:58.039\n我們2015有幫我們的太陽能光電板定一個目標它必須達到20GW但它中間有調整過所以最後我們希望太陽能的地面型可以達到12GW但你知道我們現在還差多少嗎\n\n09:02.479 --> 09:24.347\n報告我們2026年11月要達到20GW我們目前做了14.8GW那我們大概還差五點多我是說地面型你還差多少地面型地面型事實上就是這主要的大概有4G都是來自於地面型屋頂型的目前比較少因為屋頂型基本上已經達標了\n\n09:25.942 --> 09:52.111\n無敵型達標我知道地面型我幫你們算了一下還缺6.7GW我昨天還特別去問了經濟部經濟部給我們的條件是說考量太陽能模板的發電效益還有它暗場邊界可能會退縮以及它要留一些運作維修的空間保留排除既有雜項工作物暗場的遮蔭等等的因素每千瓦所需的空間約為一公頃\n\n09:53.812 --> 10:11.443\n所以我們還需要6700萬公頃這樣子的土地我光看到那個畫面大家觸目驚心只有51公頃要達到經濟部的目標還要上百倍剛剛看到的影片這樣子的土地被移平我幫你換算一下\n\n10:12.424 --> 10:27.415\n算起來是0.25四分之一個台北市1400座的大巨蛋3.4個左營區258座大安森林公園我們真的有這麼多地我們真的有這麼多地面可以放光電板嗎\n\n10:28.915 --> 10:42.098\n目前我們設置的地區大概就是在所謂地利不足的地方那我們有特別分另外我們現在用的土地通常不是農地那我們現在推的餘電公升也就是說在餘溫上那麼來設太陽光墊同時一方面養魚所謂一方面做太陽光墊我剛剛已經給你看了那個才51公頃我們用空拍機拍過去51公頃你現在跟我說你要用餘溫\n\n10:55.561 --> 11:17.699\n小塊小塊我們還缺幾百個剛那樣子的畫面不會我們現在推的主要是漁電工生是跟農委會合作的那剛才那個當然是一個違法的案例那我們剛才報告我們撤銷它的籌設許可但是我們未來做的還是希望能源跟我具體先給你一個建議我們看一下這邊\n\n11:18.920 --> 11:43.870\n等一下我會提出一個臨時提案這邊我們第六第七他就是因為第六條很久以前蘇清泉招委也有諮詢過他們屏東由整個台塘的地全部都砍樹拿來放光電板因為屬於公有土地國營事業但經能源主管經關同意者不在此限不在環評的限制位於山坡地\n\n11:45.110 --> 12:09.688\n設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評才需要做環評那你認為未來不會發生化整為零的現象嗎報告不會這個我們會嚴格把關那剛才講的這個林地事實上這個等一下你要怎麼嚴格把關你先講你要怎麼嚴格把關所以每一個案我們會去審查然後我們會找可是山坡壁如果它在15公頃以下你要怎麼審查\n\n12:11.324 --> 12:26.173\n我們還是會審查我們事實上每一個案我們審查的時候都有找相關單位來看這一個對環境的生態是不是在敏感地區這個還是要檢查如果他是在環境生態敏感地區他本來依照其他的規定他就要做\n\n12:27.855 --> 12:40.369\n環評那這是整個這個環評英師環評項目中間的一條但是其他的他比如說他不僅有生態敏感或是有環境敏感地質敏感這些他還是要依照其他規定來做\n\n12:41.510 --> 13:04.541\n不一定會有所以等一下我的臨時提案會提出一個報告我們希望不要有漏洞因為我已經把你的漏洞圈起來了我們就是因為之前那個51公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情居民現在擔心自己土石流啊不會所以我剛才講他那個是一個違法的案件我們已經取消他了還有其他的案件我們都在這邊質詢過彭部長好先這樣子謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.656,"end":9.159,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位官員我想請次長"},{"start":16.744,"end":44.323,"text":"市長你好您好剛剛非常遺憾有看到陳昭芝委員關於詢問您這個台中市政府跟環境部之間的訴訟這個已經判決雖然一審判決啊台灣高等法院行政法院一審判決說環境部是沒有這個職責的環境部也不應該去撤銷這個罰單那你剛剛已經很明確的說到了環境部會上訴嘛是不是是那我們是很遺憾因為"},{"start":46.41,"end":68.299,"text":"這個中火影響人民的健康是大家都知道的事情你就算到WHO的網站你也會看到不管是PM多少都跟Power Generation有相關可是你一直在強調這些移動交通的污染源我認為台中市民看起來會非常的寒心畢竟自從核電研議之後他們每天都會上台電的網站去看"},{"start":69.119,"end":94.524,"text":"白天的時候就突破了九成夜晚沒有綠電可以支援的時候更是到95%變成一個火燒島剛剛也有告訴你了這幾天聯合報就有一個專題講到我們國人的十大死因幾乎十大死因都跟空污有相關喔空污影響了什麼新血管這是現任的衛福部部長以前當委員的時候質詢的影響到肺"},{"start":97.125,"end":116.494,"text":"影響到氣喘 影響到肺部的疾病 影響到腦等等全身各處都跟空污有相關我想知道當時呢你們對於他廢水的這個懸浮物被裁罰了七次你們不講話可是對於這個超燃煤被判你們就開始為他講話 請問你的標準何在啊"},{"start":123.8,"end":139.092,"text":"我跟委員報告一下謝謝委員關心這個議題那現在大家都聚焦在這個減煤這個事情上面的確煤的使用量減少那我們邏輯去推斷就是它應該排污會減少是這樣的想法"},{"start":139.853,"end":167.212,"text":"但是很重要就是說空氣污染防治不是只有減少燃料的使用還有一個就是污染防治設備技術的提升能夠讓它排出來的污染量降低這個才是最終對環境的影響我跟委員報告一下今天沒有達到40%減煤因此台電被台中市政府所處罰了它的減量大概是31點多但是"},{"start":168.012,"end":190.804,"text":"每一個減量31點多但是有個數據可能大家都不清楚的我借這個機會跟大家報告但是不要又講說環境部又在幫台電復航我講的是事實啊105年到113年台電投入了740億做污染防治設備的提升以至於他們空污的總排放量從3.8萬公噸降到113年只有9000多公噸"},{"start":194.726,"end":217.584,"text":"9000多公噸減排了76%減排真正排出來的台式對市民的影響用多少燃料那個只是一個管制在前端後端的管制才是最重要的一個結果啊我跟你說台中人都知道2022年台中的電廠是全世界這是世界第一全世界的碳排第一名"},{"start":218.385,"end":245.067,"text":"好 你現在用的訴訟的這些費用你知道來自於哪裡嗎你訴訟的費用來自於空污防治基金你自己不覺得很矛盾嗎空污防治基金是應該要幫助人民減少空污結果他們是用他們的納稅錢交給你打這個行政訴訟然後增加他們的空污拿來爭取中火可以超量的燃煤很明顯那個時候他們就是超量的燃煤嘛"},{"start":245.834,"end":260.558,"text":"跟委員報告一下108年的11月20號台中市政府發文給台電公司他的文裡面寫的是說他兩年前核給他的許可證的內容上面的文字寫從109年1月26日起"},{"start":264.639,"end":279.22,"text":"他把它改為自109年1月26日前這個差別在哪裡你知道嗎這個差別在於本來是往後一年他必須要減40%的量他變成只剩下兩個月的時間去減根本來不及啊"},{"start":279.941,"end":300.721,"text":"那它的理由是說它叫做物善一個政府可以用物善去對任何一個事業或者對任何一個民眾的行為我不曉得我們如果今天站在一個空氣污染防治法的上級的機關我們也有監督的責任耶那我們如果都不監督那我們是不是就失職了呢"},{"start":301.461,"end":322.819,"text":"我是真的很遺憾 我已經告訴你當時有多項他們被裁罰包括廢水懸浮固體 七度超標包括超燃煤也超標廢水你就不去管 燃煤你就拼命的上訴我很遺憾環境部現在沒有站在台中人民健康的立場而是站在中火的立場"},{"start":325.916,"end":341.135,"text":"我還是在這邊希望你們可以去體會住在台中人那邊的心情好嗎我問下一題這邊是也是最近我們高雄發現到這你應該知道我們高雄有這個地方吧我先播影片給你看"},{"start":409.328,"end":423.274,"text":"這邊是我們高雄大樹區的河山裡從剛剛的中火一直到這個滿山遍谷的光電板都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的現在那邊的居民吃飯是配沙"},{"start":424.734,"end":432.999,"text":"因為他們要把山頭先弄平 弄平以後去填這個窪地比較低窪的地方黃沙滾滾 吃飯都配沙 還污染了他們的水源地本來這個山坡地是以種玉荷包 鳳梨還有水源 水果等等文明佔地50億公頃但是自來水公司2022年為了要資產活化而且配合政府的綠能 綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電"},{"start":453.572,"end":464.975,"text":"這不是什麼能源轉型啦這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我想知道你們未來對這件事情會有什麼做法我想政府應該也要行政啦齁那這個事情是能源署這邊也許可以做一下說明齁為什麼會造成這樣的一個結果可不可以請能源署署長好 簡短 簡短"},{"start":484.233,"end":491.122,"text":"這個高雄市政府他違反水保法的規定已經撤銷執照那我們昨天也已經撤銷本案的抽涉許可"},{"start":491.55,"end":517.257,"text":"第一期還會繼續喔你知道吧宇王宮就是他看他違反水保法因為他剛才是在水保施工的時候他有很多違反水保法那高雄市政府處理罰他七次那我們也處理過一次那他沒有改善所以現在會就他違規違法的部分那麼高雄市政府已經撤銷他執照我們也撤銷他仇社許可我希望你這樣子的態度也可以發揮在總夥那次長我們回來討論這個"},{"start":521.567,"end":538.039,"text":"我們2015有幫我們的太陽能光電板定一個目標它必須達到20GW但它中間有調整過所以最後我們希望太陽能的地面型可以達到12GW但你知道我們現在還差多少嗎"},{"start":542.479,"end":564.347,"text":"報告我們2026年11月要達到20GW我們目前做了14.8GW那我們大概還差五點多我是說地面型你還差多少地面型地面型事實上就是這主要的大概有4G都是來自於地面型屋頂型的目前比較少因為屋頂型基本上已經達標了"},{"start":565.942,"end":592.111,"text":"無敵型達標我知道地面型我幫你們算了一下還缺6.7GW我昨天還特別去問了經濟部經濟部給我們的條件是說考量太陽能模板的發電效益還有它暗場邊界可能會退縮以及它要留一些運作維修的空間保留排除既有雜項工作物暗場的遮蔭等等的因素每千瓦所需的空間約為一公頃"},{"start":593.812,"end":611.443,"text":"所以我們還需要6700萬公頃這樣子的土地我光看到那個畫面大家觸目驚心只有51公頃要達到經濟部的目標還要上百倍剛剛看到的影片這樣子的土地被移平我幫你換算一下"},{"start":612.424,"end":627.415,"text":"算起來是0.25 四分之一個台北市1400座的大巨蛋3.4個左營區258座大安森林公園我們真的有這麼多地我們真的有這麼多地面可以放光電板嗎"},{"start":628.915,"end":642.098,"text":"目前我們設置的地區大概就是在所謂地利不足的地方那我們有特別分另外我們現在用的土地通常不是農地那我們現在推的餘電公升也就是說在餘溫上那麼來設太陽光墊同時一方面養魚所謂一方面做太陽光墊我剛剛已經給你看了那個才51公頃我們用空拍機拍過去 51公頃你現在跟我說你要用餘溫"},{"start":655.561,"end":677.699,"text":"小塊小塊 我們還缺幾百個剛那樣子的畫面不會 我們現在推的主要是漁電工生是跟農委會合作的那剛才那個當然是一個違法的案例那我們剛才報告我們撤銷它的籌設許可但是我們未來做的還是希望能源跟我具體先給你一個建議 我們看一下這邊"},{"start":678.92,"end":703.87,"text":"等一下我會提出一個臨時提案這邊我們第六 第七 他就是因為第六條很久以前蘇清泉招委也有諮詢過他們屏東由整個台塘的地全部都砍樹拿來放光電板因為屬於公有土地 國營事業但經能源主管 經關同意者不在此限 不在環評的限制位於山坡地"},{"start":705.11,"end":729.688,"text":"設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評 才需要做環評那你認為未來不會發生化整為零的現象嗎報告不會 這個我們會嚴格把關那剛才講的這個林地 事實上這個等一下你要怎麼嚴格把關 你先講你要怎麼嚴格把關所以每一個案我們會去審查 然後我們會找可是山坡壁如果它在15公頃以下你要怎麼審查"},{"start":731.324,"end":746.173,"text":"我們還是會審查我們事實上每一個案我們審查的時候都有找相關單位來看這一個對環境的生態是不是在敏感地區這個還是要檢查如果他是在環境生態敏感地區他本來依照其他的規定他就要做"},{"start":747.855,"end":760.369,"text":"環評那這是整個這個環評英師環評項目中間的一條但是其他的他比如說他不僅有生態敏感或是有環境敏感地質敏感這些他還是要依照其他規定來做"},{"start":761.51,"end":784.541,"text":"不一定會有所以等一下我的臨時提案會提出一個報告我們希望不要有漏洞因為我已經把你的漏洞圈起來了我們就是因為之前那個51公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情居民現在擔心自己土石流啊不會所以我剛才講他那個是一個違法的案件我們已經取消他了還有其他的案件我們都在這邊質詢過彭部長好先這樣子 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":284,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時38分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，我想請次長。"],["主席：次長。"],["陳委員菁徽：次長你好。"],["沈次長志修：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛非常遺憾，有看到陳昭姿委員詢問您關於臺中市政府跟環境部之間的訴訟，雖然已經一審判決，臺灣高等法院行政法院一審判決說環境部是沒有這個職責的，環境部也不應該去撤銷這個罰單，你剛剛已經很明確地說環境部會上訴，是不是？"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們很遺憾，因為中火影響人民的健康是大家都知道的事情，就算到WHO的網站也會看到不管是PM多少都跟power generation有相關，可是你一直在強調這些交通的移動污染源，我認為臺中市民會非常寒心，畢竟自從核電延役之後，他們每天都會上台電的網站去看，白天就突破了九成；夜晚沒有綠電可以支援更是到95%！變成一個火燒島。","剛剛也有告訴你，這幾天聯合報就有專題講到國人的十大死因，幾乎都跟空污相關！空污會影響什麼？心血管，這是現任衛福部部長以前當委員的時候質詢的，影響到肺、影響到氣喘、影響到肺部的疾病、影響到腦等等，全身各處都跟空污有相關。我想知道，當時對於它的廢水懸浮物被裁罰了7次，你們不講話，可是對於超燃煤被判，你們就開始為它講話，請問你的標準何在啊？"],["沈次長志修：我跟委員報告一下，謝謝委員關心這個議題，現在大家都聚焦在減煤這個事情上面，的確煤的使用量減少，我們以邏輯推斷，就知道它應該排污會減少，是這樣的想法，但是很重要的是，空氣污染防制不是只有減少燃料的使用，還有一個就是污染防制設備技術的提升，能夠讓它排出來的污染量降低，這個才是最終對環境的影響。我跟委員報告一下，今天它沒有達到減煤40%，因此台電被臺中市政府處罰了，它的減煤量大概是百分之三十一點多，有個數據可能大家都不清楚，我藉這個機會跟大家報告，但是不要又說環境部又在幫台電護航，我講的是事實。105年到113年台電投入了740億做污染防制設備的提升，以至於他們空污的總排放量從3.8萬公噸，到113年降到只有九千多公噸，減排了76%，減少真正排出來的才是對市民的影響，用多少燃料只是在前端管制，後端的管制才是最重要的結果。"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說，臺中人都知道，2022年臺中的電廠是全世界的碳排第一名，這是世界第一，你現在用來訴訟的這些費用你知道來自於哪裡嗎？你訴訟的費用來自於空污防制基金，你自己不覺得很矛盾嗎？空污防制基金應該是要幫助人民減少空污，結果他們是把他們的納稅錢交給你打這個行政訴訟，然後增加他們的空污，拿來爭取中火可以超量的燃煤，很明顯那個時候他們就是超量的燃煤嘛！"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告一下，108年11月20號臺中市政府發文給台電公司，它的文裡面寫的是，兩年前核給它的許可證的內容，上面的文字寫：從109年1月26日起。它把它改為：至109年1月26日前。這個差別在哪裡，你知道嗎？這個差別在於，本來是往後一年它必須要減40%的量，變成它只剩下兩個月的時間去減，根本來不及啊！臺中市政府的理由是「誤繕」，一個政府可以用「誤繕」對任何一個事業或者對任何一個民眾的行為……我們今天站在一個空氣污染防制法上級機關的立場，有監督的責任，如果都不監督，那我們是不是就失職了呢？"],["陳委員菁徽：我是真的很遺憾，我已經告訴你，當時他們有多項被裁罰，包括廢水懸浮固體7度超標、包括超燃煤也超標，廢水你就不去管，燃煤你就拚命的上訴。我很遺憾環境部現在沒有站在臺中人民健康的立場，而是站在中火的立場，我還是在這邊希望你們可以體會住在臺中那邊的人的心情，好嗎？","我問下一題，這個是最近高雄發現的，你應該知道高雄有這個地方吧？我先播影片給你看。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊是高雄大樹區的和山里，從剛剛的中火，一直到這裡滿山遍谷的光電板，都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的，現在那邊的居民吃飯是配沙，因為他們要把山頭先弄平，弄平以後去填比較低窪的窪地，使得那裡黃沙滾滾，居民吃飯都配沙，還污染了他們的水源地。本來這個山坡地是以種玉荷包、鳳梨還有水源、水果等等聞名，占地51公頃，但是自來水公司2022年為了要資產活化，而且配合政府的綠能、綠電政策，把土地租給廠商開發光電。這不是什麼能源轉型，這個叫做對土地的背叛、對環境的掠奪，我想知道你們未來對這件事情會有什麼作法？"],["沈次長志修：我想政府應該依法行政，這個事情能源署也許可以做一下說明，為什麼會造成這樣的結果，可不可以請能源署署長？"],["陳委員菁徽：好，簡短。"],["李代理署長君禮：這部分違反水保法的規定，高雄市政府已經撤銷執照，我們昨天也已經撤銷本案的籌設許可。"],["陳委員菁徽：第一期還會繼續，你知道吧？"],["李代理署長君禮：已完工，就是看它違反水保法，因為它是在水保施工的時候有很多違反水保法的地方，高雄市政府處理，罰它7次，我們也處理過1次，但它沒有改善，所以現在就它違規、違法的部分，高雄市政府已經撤銷它的執照，我們也撤銷它的籌設許可。"],["陳委員菁徽：我希望你這樣的態度也可以發揮在中火。次長，我們回來討論這個，2025年我們有幫太陽能光電板訂一個目標，它必須達到20GW，但中間有調整過，所以最後我們希望太陽能地面型可以達到12GW，但你知道我們現在還差多少嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們2026年11月要達到20GW，我們目前做了14.8GW，大概還差五點多……"],["陳委員菁徽：我是說地面型還差多少？"],["李代理署長君禮：這主要大概有4GW都是來自於地面型，屋頂型的目前比較少，因為屋頂型基本上已經達標了。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，屋頂型達標，我知道，我幫你們算了一下，地面型還缺6.7GW。我昨天還特別去問了經濟部，經濟部給我們的條件是說，考量太陽能模板的發電效益，還有案場邊界可能會退縮，以及要保留一些運作、維修的空間，排除既有雜項工作物、案場的遮蔭等等因素，每千瓦所需的空間約為1公頃，所以我們還需要6,700公頃這樣子的土地，我光看到那個畫面就覺得怵目驚心，那只有51公頃，要達到經濟部的目標，還要上百倍剛剛看到的影片中這樣子的土地被夷平。我幫你換算一下，算起來是0.25個臺北市、1,400座的大巨蛋、3.4個左營區、258座大安森林公園，我們真的有這麼多地面可以放光電板嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：目前設置的地區大概是在所謂地力不足的地區，我們有特別區分。另外，我們現在用的土地通常不是農地，我們現在推的漁電共生也就是在魚塭上設太陽光電，一方面養魚，同時一方面做太陽光電。"],["陳委員菁徽：我剛剛已經給你看了，那個才51公頃，我們用空拍機拍過去，才51公頃，你現在跟我說你要用魚塭，小塊、小塊的，我們還缺幾百個剛剛那樣子的畫面耶！"],["李代理署長君禮：不會，我們現在推的主要是漁電共生，是跟農委會合作的，剛才那個當然是一個違法的案例，剛才也報告我們撤銷它的籌設許可，但是我們未來做的還是希望能源跟……"],["陳委員菁徽：我具體先給你一個建議，我們看一下螢幕上的條文，等一下我會提出一個臨時提案，就是因為本條第一項第七款第六目。很久以前蘇清泉召委也有質詢過，他們屏東有整個台糖的地全部都砍樹拿來放光電板，因為屬於國有土地、公有土地、國營事業土地，但經能源主管機關同意者，不在此限，也就是不在環評的限制，位於山坡地設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要環評，你認為未來不會發生化整為零的現象嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：不會，我們會嚴格把關。關於剛才講的林地，事實上，國有地造林……"],["陳委員菁徽：你要怎麼嚴格把關？你先講你要怎麼嚴格把關？"],["李代理署長君禮：每一個案我們都會審查，然後我們會找相關單位來……"],["陳委員菁徽：可是山坡地如果在15公頃以下，你要怎麼審查？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們還是會審查，事實上，每一個案子在審查的時候，我們都有找相關單位來看它的環境生態是不是在敏感地區，這個還是要審查。如果它是在環境生態敏感地區，依照相關規定本來就要環評，這是應施環評項目中間的一條，但是其他的部分，比如附近有生態敏感或是環境敏感、地質敏感等等，還是要依照其他規定來做。"],["陳委員菁徽：它不一定會有。"],["李代理署長君禮：是，所以我們會來看……"],["陳委員菁徽：等一下我的臨時提案會請你們提出報告，我們希望不要有漏洞，其實我已經把你的漏洞圈起來了，就是因為之前那51公頃沒有接受環評，才會發生這麼恐怖的事情，居民現在擔心會發生土石流啊！"],["李代理署長君禮：不會，我剛才也講那是一個違法的案件，我們已經把它取消了。"],["陳委員菁徽：還有其他案件我們都在這邊質詢過彭部長，那就先這樣子，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":178,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","麥玉珍","陳瑩","楊曜","廖偉翔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、交通部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部就「因應歐盟管制超細懸浮微粒\n（PM0.1），我國空污管制政策如何精進、提升，保障國人健康安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146302_00002"}}}