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\"end\": 496.426, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 496.426, \"end\": 496.446, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 496.446, \"end\": 496.466, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,952 --> 00:00:01,413\n謝謝主席有請部長\n\n2\n00:00:10,444 --> 00:00:36,712\n市長好今天因為這一個有這一個好幾個討論事項那無人機的這個我比較沒有什麼意見那這邊有這個就是國家軍事博物館那因為有好幾位委員其實都有針對這個軍博館提出這個相關的這一個預算的凍結那我先說明一下我們禮拜一有去考察因為我想說既然因為它有很多的事項不管是質詢還是新聞的報導大概是\n\n3\n00:00:38,493 --> 00:00:48,260\n很難獲得全貌所以我們特別在禮拜一的時候去考察蠻多的委員的助理也都有出席去到底看一下預算增加的狀況我們看到的當然是第一個從早期開始預算編列的幾億的增加但我後來發現大部分委員關心的其實並不是那一塊\n\n4\n00:01:01,690 --> 00:01:22,357\n他關心的是中間三次這個設計上的一個變更包含這一個基載的一些變更還有抗風結構的一些變更那我們也都看了一些這些變更之處然後請這個建築師又來說明為何變更那裡面我覺得有提到一點我覺得蠻重要的就是說因為我看這個新聞報導就一直在講說這個現在這個軍博館\n\n5\n00:01:24,858 --> 00:01:40,909\n這個要花了幾億等等之類的然後又變更設計因為廠商中間在做評估的時候有一些失誤所以到最後要變更設計變更設計的時候我們依照工程會定型化的契約就是有一個罰款就是說這個罰款怎麼加起來只有幾百萬\n\n6\n00:01:44,071 --> 00:01:58,651\n所以就用這樣的一些比較聳動的標題比如說這是一個幾億的案子然後到最後是幾百萬的罰款我們在當天在看的這個過程當中其實發現就是說因為這其實都是第一個就是罰款並不是針對一開始幾億幾億的增加\n\n7\n00:02:00,814 --> 00:02:25,516\n那個本身是行政院在核定的過程還有在疫情的這個整個過程裡面發生了這個不管是原物料的漲價或者說這一個本來是要幾層變成幾層這樣的一個情勢所以最主要罰款的部分就是剛剛提到的不管是機載還有這個抗風結構的這個變更設計那現場看了之後我就發現變更設計它所增加的金額其實是幾千萬\n\n8\n00:02:26,457 --> 00:02:47,140\n那這個幾千萬的金額呢,我說真的,這一個中間其實有流標三次嘛那廠商能夠獲得的金額當然絕對不是幾千萬它是幾千萬的案子,不代表廠商獲得幾千萬所以廠商今天到底是獲得了多少的金錢,跟他最後處罰了多少金錢那個比例可能才是我們真正需要關心的\n\n9\n00:02:47,820 --> 00:03:09,957\n所以呢我從這一個我想要延伸因為我知道部長應該對這個案子很熟所以我想也可能不要直接說明就是說像這一種不管是質詢的內容還是新聞標題的方式其實常常會有極其誤導之能事就讓別人會覺得說哎呦怎麼比例上差那麼多那其實根本就不是這樣子來做比較那一樣的情形就發生在這幾天關於這一個潛艦海測的狀況然後呢就有看到什麼艦體變形啦然後明明是旁邊的那一個被動測驅的那個聲納嘛\n\n10\n00:03:17,843 --> 00:03:37,080\n塗起來那就有很多的粉專開始分享說是不是產生了問題等等之類的我們在整理的過程當中就發現它其實最早是來自於微博的武統工坊這個帳號然後台灣傻事之前已經參與了這個作戰很多次了\n\n11\n00:03:37,620 --> 00:03:52,048\n但我關心的是6月18號下午5點這個海峽之聲為什麼因為海峽之聲它背後的這一個是跟解放軍有關那也就是說這個一開始它所操作然後一直到它放大其實解放軍針對我們的海昆號有不實的資訊\n\n12\n00:03:54,970 --> 00:04:14,607\n那這個不實的資訊呢很快的又被台灣的幾個粉專或者說這一個特定的媒體然後做放大這就讓我想到就是我們禮拜一去考察的這個狀況就是說他們有時候呢即使沒有用不實資訊用一些比較誇大的方式來做比較然後就會讓國人誤以為說這邊是不是有弊案不管是\n\n13\n00:04:15,007 --> 00:04:38,388\n在講這個軍博館的還是在講這個海昆號的所以目前來講針對這一件事情闢謠的狀況以國防部來講是如何不管是海昆號的部分還是軍博館的部分我想就海昆號的部分先說明一下就是說艦體的那個突出的部分是被動側距聲納的一個護罩那麼這個是原廠本身就採用這個曲面設計屬於這個先進的這個\n\n14\n00:04:41,170 --> 00:04:58,919\n整個的雷達系統的一個裝備,國外的潛艦也是有的,包括這個澳洲的柯林斯級,還有英國的維多利亞級的潛艦也都是這樣子的,因為他要用這樣的設計來達到最佳的收音的一個效果,所以並不是如外界所講的說,\n\n15\n00:05:05,365 --> 00:05:21,324\n它事實上它的設計就是如此,因為它是在壓力殼的外面嘛,然後能夠達到一個最佳的一個徵收的效果。那軍部管的部分呢,我想\n\n16\n00:05:22,563 --> 00:05:34,750\n我來了國防部之後,我這邊只是表達我對軍火桿付出很大的一個心理因為軍火桿在國防部的斜對面的這個地方,它事實上在那個地方的\n\n17\n00:05:36,533 --> 00:06:04,197\n不是一個繁華的一個地方呢軍博館在行政院的支持下增加了這個那個坪數增加的量體等等那麼當然這個中間在我來之前有經過三次的這個變更設計那我們也依照合約依照相關的合約進行了罰款那現在最重要的部分在我看起來就是說如何讓軍博館成為一個每一個人都願意來了之後\n\n18\n00:06:04,737 --> 00:06:31,267\n再來的一個地方因為你要讓他的這個軍事的裝備的成長是看起來是非常具有可觀性的然後另外我們增加非常多的互動式的體驗我已經聽取了好多次報告我們這互動式的體驗我在這裡可以跟各位講就是說我們會希望這樣的會有互動式的體驗是在其他的博物館都看不到的\n\n19\n00:06:31,787 --> 00:06:48,873\n然後你會真正的感受到什麼叫做軍事的博物館我們朝這個方向來努力這樣好謝謝部長因為這一個因為畢竟我們禮拜一有做了考察所以我剛花了一點時間來做一個說明我覺得這個考察有必要讓國人知道那其實很多次的變更設計都是跟安全有關係\n\n20\n00:06:49,913 --> 00:07:10,155\n我知道我們現在在考察的時候發現目前的施工進度是超前但是我還是要特別提醒一下因為畢竟本來的變更設計都是為了安全如果是為了安全雖然現在進度是超前但如果說為了安全起見即使進度稍微落後我覺得國人應該都是能夠接受的\n\n21\n00:07:10,715 --> 00:07:32,810\n安全一定是第一啦我覺得這是我們第一個蠻重要的一個提醒那第二個就是呢我再稍微講一下就是說海關號這件事情呢就是我們都知道中國一定會做操作那它很明顯的操作就是其實是禮拜三下午三點然後跟五點的海峽直升這兩個大概是最而且它造成非常多數的觀看但台船出來說啊這個聲明說這個有誤已經等到六月十九號了\n\n22\n00:07:33,630 --> 00:07:58,852\n所以其實對我們來講就是說如果說我們已經知道對方一定會來做這些事情的話某種程度的預判如果能夠是在更早的時候針對這些事情來做辟謠的話我覺得對國人會有幫助然後他不然的話會等到說又是傍晚然後可能下午新聞出來之後電子媒體出來之後然後大家才知道說原來是一場誤會那這個部分可能再請國防部可能還要再費一點心所以我們會來精進來檢討\n\n23\n00:08:01,434 --> 00:08:16,466\n好那因為時間到了我最後本來有一個問題是在講這一個就是剛剛地域委員其實已經問過了這個2060停目前的交貨速度那當然其實裡面還有一個戰鬥服的問題我私底下其實也已經有問過國軍那這個問題我可能等到下一次有機會的時候再來談好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n952\t1413\t謝謝主席有請部長\n10444\t36712\t市長好今天因為這一個有這一個好幾個討論事項那無人機的這個我比較沒有什麼意見那這邊有這個就是國家軍事博物館那因為有好幾位委員其實都有針對這個軍博館提出這個相關的這一個預算的凍結那我先說明一下我們禮拜一有去考察因為我想說既然因為它有很多的事項不管是質詢還是新聞的報導大概是\n38493\t48260\t很難獲得全貌所以我們特別在禮拜一的時候去考察蠻多的委員的助理也都有出席去到底看一下預算增加的狀況我們看到的當然是第一個從早期開始預算編列的幾億的增加但我後來發現大部分委員關心的其實並不是那一塊\n61690\t82357\t他關心的是中間三次這個設計上的一個變更包含這一個基載的一些變更還有抗風結構的一些變更那我們也都看了一些這些變更之處然後請這個建築師又來說明為何變更那裡面我覺得有提到一點我覺得蠻重要的就是說因為我看這個新聞報導就一直在講說這個現在這個軍博館\n84858\t100909\t這個要花了幾億等等之類的然後又變更設計因為廠商中間在做評估的時候有一些失誤所以到最後要變更設計變更設計的時候我們依照工程會定型化的契約就是有一個罰款就是說這個罰款怎麼加起來只有幾百萬\n104071\t118651\t所以就用這樣的一些比較聳動的標題比如說這是一個幾億的案子然後到最後是幾百萬的罰款我們在當天在看的這個過程當中其實發現就是說因為這其實都是第一個就是罰款並不是針對一開始幾億幾億的增加\n120814\t145516\t那個本身是行政院在核定的過程還有在疫情的這個整個過程裡面發生了這個不管是原物料的漲價或者說這一個本來是要幾層變成幾層這樣的一個情勢所以最主要罰款的部分就是剛剛提到的不管是機載還有這個抗風結構的這個變更設計那現場看了之後我就發現變更設計它所增加的金額其實是幾千萬\n146457\t167140\t那這個幾千萬的金額呢,我說真的,這一個中間其實有流標三次嘛那廠商能夠獲得的金額當然絕對不是幾千萬它是幾千萬的案子,不代表廠商獲得幾千萬所以廠商今天到底是獲得了多少的金錢,跟他最後處罰了多少金錢那個比例可能才是我們真正需要關心的\n167820\t189957\t所以呢我從這一個我想要延伸因為我知道部長應該對這個案子很熟所以我想也可能不要直接說明就是說像這一種不管是質詢的內容還是新聞標題的方式其實常常會有極其誤導之能事就讓別人會覺得說哎呦怎麼比例上差那麼多那其實根本就不是這樣子來做比較那一樣的情形就發生在這幾天關於這一個潛艦海測的狀況然後呢就有看到什麼艦體變形啦然後明明是旁邊的那一個被動測驅的那個聲納嘛\n197843\t217080\t塗起來那就有很多的粉專開始分享說是不是產生了問題等等之類的我們在整理的過程當中就發現它其實最早是來自於微博的武統工坊這個帳號然後台灣傻事之前已經參與了這個作戰很多次了\n217620\t232048\t但我關心的是6月18號下午5點這個海峽之聲為什麼因為海峽之聲它背後的這一個是跟解放軍有關那也就是說這個一開始它所操作然後一直到它放大其實解放軍針對我們的海昆號有不實的資訊\n234970\t254607\t那這個不實的資訊呢很快的又被台灣的幾個粉專或者說這一個特定的媒體然後做放大這就讓我想到就是我們禮拜一去考察的這個狀況就是說他們有時候呢即使沒有用不實資訊用一些比較誇大的方式來做比較然後就會讓國人誤以為說這邊是不是有弊案不管是\n255007\t278388\t在講這個軍博館的還是在講這個海昆號的所以目前來講針對這一件事情闢謠的狀況以國防部來講是如何不管是海昆號的部分還是軍博館的部分我想就海昆號的部分先說明一下就是說艦體的那個突出的部分是被動側距聲納的一個護罩那麼這個是原廠本身就採用這個曲面設計屬於這個先進的這個\n281170\t298919\t整個的雷達系統的一個裝備,國外的潛艦也是有的,包括這個澳洲的柯林斯級,還有英國的維多利亞級的潛艦也都是這樣子的,因為他要用這樣的設計來達到最佳的收音的一個效果,所以並不是如外界所講的說,\n305365\t321324\t它事實上它的設計就是如此,因為它是在壓力殼的外面嘛,然後能夠達到一個最佳的一個徵收的效果。那軍部管的部分呢,我想\n322563\t334750\t我來了國防部之後,我這邊只是表達我對軍火桿付出很大的一個心理因為軍火桿在國防部的斜對面的這個地方,它事實上在那個地方的\n336533\t364197\t不是一個繁華的一個地方呢軍博館在行政院的支持下增加了這個那個坪數增加的量體等等那麼當然這個中間在我來之前有經過三次的這個變更設計那我們也依照合約依照相關的合約進行了罰款那現在最重要的部分在我看起來就是說如何讓軍博館成為一個每一個人都願意來了之後\n364737\t391267\t再來的一個地方因為你要讓他的這個軍事的裝備的成長是看起來是非常具有可觀性的然後另外我們增加非常多的互動式的體驗我已經聽取了好多次報告我們這互動式的體驗我在這裡可以跟各位講就是說我們會希望這樣的會有互動式的體驗是在其他的博物館都看不到的\n391787\t408873\t然後你會真正的感受到什麼叫做軍事的博物館我們朝這個方向來努力這樣好 謝謝部長因為這一個因為畢竟我們禮拜一有做了考察所以我剛花了一點時間來做一個說明我覺得這個考察有必要讓國人知道那其實很多次的變更設計都是跟安全有關係\n409913\t430155\t我知道我們現在在考察的時候發現目前的施工進度是超前但是我還是要特別提醒一下因為畢竟本來的變更設計都是為了安全如果是為了安全 雖然現在進度是超前但如果說為了安全起見即使進度稍微落後我覺得國人應該都是能夠接受的\n430715\t452810\t安全一定是第一啦我覺得這是我們第一個蠻重要的一個提醒那第二個就是呢我再稍微講一下就是說海關號這件事情呢就是我們都知道中國一定會做操作那它很明顯的操作就是其實是禮拜三下午三點然後跟五點的海峽直升這兩個大概是最而且它造成非常多數的觀看但台船出來說啊這個聲明說這個有誤已經等到六月十九號了\n453630\t478852\t所以其實對我們來講就是說如果說我們已經知道對方一定會來做這些事情的話某種程度的預判如果能夠是在更早的時候針對這些事情來做辟謠的話我覺得對國人會有幫助然後他不然的話會等到說又是傍晚然後可能下午新聞出來之後電子媒體出來之後然後大家才知道說原來是一場誤會那這個部分可能再請國防部可能還要再費一點心所以我們會來精進來檢討\n481434\t496466\t好 那因為時間到了我最後本來有一個問題是在講這一個就是剛剛地域委員其實已經問過了這個2060停目前的交貨速度那當然其實裡面還有一個戰鬥服的問題我私底下其實也已經有問過國軍那這個問題我可能等到下一次有機會的時候再來談好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請部長\n市長好今天因為這一個有這一個好幾個討論事項那無人機的這個我比較沒有什麼意見那這邊有這個就是國家軍事博物館那因為有好幾位委員其實都有針對這個軍博館提出這個相關的這一個預算的凍結那我先說明一下我們禮拜一有去考察因為我想說既然因為它有很多的事項不管是質詢還是新聞的報導大概是\n很難獲得全貌所以我們特別在禮拜一的時候去考察蠻多的委員的助理也都有出席去到底看一下預算增加的狀況我們看到的當然是第一個從早期開始預算編列的幾億的增加但我後來發現大部分委員關心的其實並不是那一塊\n他關心的是中間三次這個設計上的一個變更包含這一個基載的一些變更還有抗風結構的一些變更那我們也都看了一些這些變更之處然後請這個建築師又來說明為何變更那裡面我覺得有提到一點我覺得蠻重要的就是說因為我看這個新聞報導就一直在講說這個現在這個軍博館\n這個要花了幾億等等之類的然後又變更設計因為廠商中間在做評估的時候有一些失誤所以到最後要變更設計變更設計的時候我們依照工程會定型化的契約就是有一個罰款就是說這個罰款怎麼加起來只有幾百萬\n所以就用這樣的一些比較聳動的標題比如說這是一個幾億的案子然後到最後是幾百萬的罰款我們在當天在看的這個過程當中其實發現就是說因為這其實都是第一個就是罰款並不是針對一開始幾億幾億的增加\n那個本身是行政院在核定的過程還有在疫情的這個整個過程裡面發生了這個不管是原物料的漲價或者說這一個本來是要幾層變成幾層這樣的一個情勢所以最主要罰款的部分就是剛剛提到的不管是機載還有這個抗風結構的這個變更設計那現場看了之後我就發現變更設計它所增加的金額其實是幾千萬\n那這個幾千萬的金額呢,我說真的,這一個中間其實有流標三次嘛那廠商能夠獲得的金額當然絕對不是幾千萬它是幾千萬的案子,不代表廠商獲得幾千萬所以廠商今天到底是獲得了多少的金錢,跟他最後處罰了多少金錢那個比例可能才是我們真正需要關心的\n所以呢我從這一個我想要延伸因為我知道部長應該對這個案子很熟所以我想也可能不要直接說明就是說像這一種不管是質詢的內容還是新聞標題的方式其實常常會有極其誤導之能事就讓別人會覺得說哎呦怎麼比例上差那麼多那其實根本就不是這樣子來做比較那一樣的情形就發生在這幾天關於這一個潛艦海測的狀況然後呢就有看到什麼艦體變形啦然後明明是旁邊的那一個被動測驅的那個聲納嘛\n塗起來那就有很多的粉專開始分享說是不是產生了問題等等之類的我們在整理的過程當中就發現它其實最早是來自於微博的武統工坊這個帳號然後台灣傻事之前已經參與了這個作戰很多次了\n但我關心的是6月18號下午5點這個海峽之聲為什麼因為海峽之聲它背後的這一個是跟解放軍有關那也就是說這個一開始它所操作然後一直到它放大其實解放軍針對我們的海昆號有不實的資訊\n那這個不實的資訊呢很快的又被台灣的幾個粉專或者說這一個特定的媒體然後做放大這就讓我想到就是我們禮拜一去考察的這個狀況就是說他們有時候呢即使沒有用不實資訊用一些比較誇大的方式來做比較然後就會讓國人誤以為說這邊是不是有弊案不管是\n在講這個軍博館的還是在講這個海昆號的所以目前來講針對這一件事情闢謠的狀況以國防部來講是如何不管是海昆號的部分還是軍博館的部分我想就海昆號的部分先說明一下就是說艦體的那個突出的部分是被動側距聲納的一個護罩那麼這個是原廠本身就採用這個曲面設計屬於這個先進的這個\n整個的雷達系統的一個裝備,國外的潛艦也是有的,包括這個澳洲的柯林斯級,還有英國的維多利亞級的潛艦也都是這樣子的,因為他要用這樣的設計來達到最佳的收音的一個效果,所以並不是如外界所講的說,\n它事實上它的設計就是如此,因為它是在壓力殼的外面嘛,然後能夠達到一個最佳的一個徵收的效果。那軍部管的部分呢,我想\n我來了國防部之後,我這邊只是表達我對軍火桿付出很大的一個心理因為軍火桿在國防部的斜對面的這個地方,它事實上在那個地方的\n不是一個繁華的一個地方呢軍博館在行政院的支持下增加了這個那個坪數增加的量體等等那麼當然這個中間在我來之前有經過三次的這個變更設計那我們也依照合約依照相關的合約進行了罰款那現在最重要的部分在我看起來就是說如何讓軍博館成為一個每一個人都願意來了之後\n再來的一個地方因為你要讓他的這個軍事的裝備的成長是看起來是非常具有可觀性的然後另外我們增加非常多的互動式的體驗我已經聽取了好多次報告我們這互動式的體驗我在這裡可以跟各位講就是說我們會希望這樣的會有互動式的體驗是在其他的博物館都看不到的\n然後你會真正的感受到什麼叫做軍事的博物館我們朝這個方向來努力這樣好 謝謝部長因為這一個因為畢竟我們禮拜一有做了考察所以我剛花了一點時間來做一個說明我覺得這個考察有必要讓國人知道那其實很多次的變更設計都是跟安全有關係\n我知道我們現在在考察的時候發現目前的施工進度是超前但是我還是要特別提醒一下因為畢竟本來的變更設計都是為了安全如果是為了安全 雖然現在進度是超前但如果說為了安全起見即使進度稍微落後我覺得國人應該都是能夠接受的\n安全一定是第一啦我覺得這是我們第一個蠻重要的一個提醒那第二個就是呢我再稍微講一下就是說海關號這件事情呢就是我們都知道中國一定會做操作那它很明顯的操作就是其實是禮拜三下午三點然後跟五點的海峽直升這兩個大概是最而且它造成非常多數的觀看但台船出來說啊這個聲明說這個有誤已經等到六月十九號了\n所以其實對我們來講就是說如果說我們已經知道對方一定會來做這些事情的話某種程度的預判如果能夠是在更早的時候針對這些事情來做辟謠的話我覺得對國人會有幫助然後他不然的話會等到說又是傍晚然後可能下午新聞出來之後電子媒體出來之後然後大家才知道說原來是一場誤會那這個部分可能再請國防部可能還要再費一點心所以我們會來精進來檢討\n好 那因為時間到了我最後本來有一個問題是在講這一個就是剛剛地域委員其實已經問過了這個2060停目前的交貨速度那當然其實裡面還有一個戰鬥服的問題我私底下其實也已經有問過國軍那這個問題我可能等到下一次有機會的時候再來談好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.952 --> 00:01.413\n謝謝主席有請部長\n\n00:10.444 --> 00:36.712\n市長好今天因為這一個有這一個好幾個討論事項那無人機的這個我比較沒有什麼意見那這邊有這個就是國家軍事博物館那因為有好幾位委員其實都有針對這個軍博館提出這個相關的這一個預算的凍結那我先說明一下我們禮拜一有去考察因為我想說既然因為它有很多的事項不管是質詢還是新聞的報導大概是\n\n00:38.493 --> 00:48.260\n很難獲得全貌所以我們特別在禮拜一的時候去考察蠻多的委員的助理也都有出席去到底看一下預算增加的狀況我們看到的當然是第一個從早期開始預算編列的幾億的增加但我後來發現大部分委員關心的其實並不是那一塊\n\n01:01.690 --> 01:22.357\n他關心的是中間三次這個設計上的一個變更包含這一個基載的一些變更還有抗風結構的一些變更那我們也都看了一些這些變更之處然後請這個建築師又來說明為何變更那裡面我覺得有提到一點我覺得蠻重要的就是說因為我看這個新聞報導就一直在講說這個現在這個軍博館\n\n01:24.858 --> 01:40.909\n這個要花了幾億等等之類的然後又變更設計因為廠商中間在做評估的時候有一些失誤所以到最後要變更設計變更設計的時候我們依照工程會定型化的契約就是有一個罰款就是說這個罰款怎麼加起來只有幾百萬\n\n01:44.071 --> 01:58.651\n所以就用這樣的一些比較聳動的標題比如說這是一個幾億的案子然後到最後是幾百萬的罰款我們在當天在看的這個過程當中其實發現就是說因為這其實都是第一個就是罰款並不是針對一開始幾億幾億的增加\n\n02:00.814 --> 02:25.516\n那個本身是行政院在核定的過程還有在疫情的這個整個過程裡面發生了這個不管是原物料的漲價或者說這一個本來是要幾層變成幾層這樣的一個情勢所以最主要罰款的部分就是剛剛提到的不管是機載還有這個抗風結構的這個變更設計那現場看了之後我就發現變更設計它所增加的金額其實是幾千萬\n\n02:26.457 --> 02:47.140\n那這個幾千萬的金額呢,我說真的,這一個中間其實有流標三次嘛那廠商能夠獲得的金額當然絕對不是幾千萬它是幾千萬的案子,不代表廠商獲得幾千萬所以廠商今天到底是獲得了多少的金錢,跟他最後處罰了多少金錢那個比例可能才是我們真正需要關心的\n\n02:47.820 --> 03:09.957\n所以呢我從這一個我想要延伸因為我知道部長應該對這個案子很熟所以我想也可能不要直接說明就是說像這一種不管是質詢的內容還是新聞標題的方式其實常常會有極其誤導之能事就讓別人會覺得說哎呦怎麼比例上差那麼多那其實根本就不是這樣子來做比較那一樣的情形就發生在這幾天關於這一個潛艦海測的狀況然後呢就有看到什麼艦體變形啦然後明明是旁邊的那一個被動測驅的那個聲納嘛\n\n03:17.843 --> 03:37.080\n塗起來那就有很多的粉專開始分享說是不是產生了問題等等之類的我們在整理的過程當中就發現它其實最早是來自於微博的武統工坊這個帳號然後台灣傻事之前已經參與了這個作戰很多次了\n\n03:37.620 --> 03:52.048\n但我關心的是6月18號下午5點這個海峽之聲為什麼因為海峽之聲它背後的這一個是跟解放軍有關那也就是說這個一開始它所操作然後一直到它放大其實解放軍針對我們的海昆號有不實的資訊\n\n03:54.970 --> 04:14.607\n那這個不實的資訊呢很快的又被台灣的幾個粉專或者說這一個特定的媒體然後做放大這就讓我想到就是我們禮拜一去考察的這個狀況就是說他們有時候呢即使沒有用不實資訊用一些比較誇大的方式來做比較然後就會讓國人誤以為說這邊是不是有弊案不管是\n\n04:15.007 --> 04:38.388\n在講這個軍博館的還是在講這個海昆號的所以目前來講針對這一件事情闢謠的狀況以國防部來講是如何不管是海昆號的部分還是軍博館的部分我想就海昆號的部分先說明一下就是說艦體的那個突出的部分是被動側距聲納的一個護罩那麼這個是原廠本身就採用這個曲面設計屬於這個先進的這個\n\n04:41.170 --> 04:58.919\n整個的雷達系統的一個裝備,國外的潛艦也是有的,包括這個澳洲的柯林斯級,還有英國的維多利亞級的潛艦也都是這樣子的,因為他要用這樣的設計來達到最佳的收音的一個效果,所以並不是如外界所講的說,\n\n05:05.365 --> 05:21.324\n它事實上它的設計就是如此,因為它是在壓力殼的外面嘛,然後能夠達到一個最佳的一個徵收的效果。那軍部管的部分呢,我想\n\n05:22.563 --> 05:34.750\n我來了國防部之後,我這邊只是表達我對軍火桿付出很大的一個心理因為軍火桿在國防部的斜對面的這個地方,它事實上在那個地方的\n\n05:36.533 --> 06:04.197\n不是一個繁華的一個地方呢軍博館在行政院的支持下增加了這個那個坪數增加的量體等等那麼當然這個中間在我來之前有經過三次的這個變更設計那我們也依照合約依照相關的合約進行了罰款那現在最重要的部分在我看起來就是說如何讓軍博館成為一個每一個人都願意來了之後\n\n06:04.737 --> 06:31.267\n再來的一個地方因為你要讓他的這個軍事的裝備的成長是看起來是非常具有可觀性的然後另外我們增加非常多的互動式的體驗我已經聽取了好多次報告我們這互動式的體驗我在這裡可以跟各位講就是說我們會希望這樣的會有互動式的體驗是在其他的博物館都看不到的\n\n06:31.787 --> 06:48.873\n然後你會真正的感受到什麼叫做軍事的博物館我們朝這個方向來努力這樣好謝謝部長因為這一個因為畢竟我們禮拜一有做了考察所以我剛花了一點時間來做一個說明我覺得這個考察有必要讓國人知道那其實很多次的變更設計都是跟安全有關係\n\n06:49.913 --> 07:10.155\n我知道我們現在在考察的時候發現目前的施工進度是超前但是我還是要特別提醒一下因為畢竟本來的變更設計都是為了安全如果是為了安全雖然現在進度是超前但如果說為了安全起見即使進度稍微落後我覺得國人應該都是能夠接受的\n\n07:10.715 --> 07:32.810\n安全一定是第一啦我覺得這是我們第一個蠻重要的一個提醒那第二個就是呢我再稍微講一下就是說海關號這件事情呢就是我們都知道中國一定會做操作那它很明顯的操作就是其實是禮拜三下午三點然後跟五點的海峽直升這兩個大概是最而且它造成非常多數的觀看但台船出來說啊這個聲明說這個有誤已經等到六月十九號了\n\n07:33.630 --> 07:58.852\n所以其實對我們來講就是說如果說我們已經知道對方一定會來做這些事情的話某種程度的預判如果能夠是在更早的時候針對這些事情來做辟謠的話我覺得對國人會有幫助然後他不然的話會等到說又是傍晚然後可能下午新聞出來之後電子媒體出來之後然後大家才知道說原來是一場誤會那這個部分可能再請國防部可能還要再費一點心所以我們會來精進來檢討\n\n08:01.434 --> 08:16.466\n好那因為時間到了我最後本來有一個問題是在講這一個就是剛剛地域委員其實已經問過了這個2060停目前的交貨速度那當然其實裡面還有一個戰鬥服的問題我私底下其實也已經有問過國軍那這個問題我可能等到下一次有機會的時候再來談好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.952,"end":1.413,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":10.444,"end":36.712,"text":"市長好今天因為這一個有這一個好幾個討論事項那無人機的這個我比較沒有什麼意見那這邊有這個就是國家軍事博物館那因為有好幾位委員其實都有針對這個軍博館提出這個相關的這一個預算的凍結那我先說明一下我們禮拜一有去考察因為我想說既然因為它有很多的事項不管是質詢還是新聞的報導大概是"},{"start":38.493,"end":48.26,"text":"很難獲得全貌所以我們特別在禮拜一的時候去考察蠻多的委員的助理也都有出席去到底看一下預算增加的狀況我們看到的當然是第一個從早期開始預算編列的幾億的增加但我後來發現大部分委員關心的其實並不是那一塊"},{"start":61.69,"end":82.357,"text":"他關心的是中間三次這個設計上的一個變更包含這一個基載的一些變更還有抗風結構的一些變更那我們也都看了一些這些變更之處然後請這個建築師又來說明為何變更那裡面我覺得有提到一點我覺得蠻重要的就是說因為我看這個新聞報導就一直在講說這個現在這個軍博館"},{"start":84.858,"end":100.909,"text":"這個要花了幾億等等之類的然後又變更設計因為廠商中間在做評估的時候有一些失誤所以到最後要變更設計變更設計的時候我們依照工程會定型化的契約就是有一個罰款就是說這個罰款怎麼加起來只有幾百萬"},{"start":104.071,"end":118.651,"text":"所以就用這樣的一些比較聳動的標題比如說這是一個幾億的案子然後到最後是幾百萬的罰款我們在當天在看的這個過程當中其實發現就是說因為這其實都是第一個就是罰款並不是針對一開始幾億幾億的增加"},{"start":120.814,"end":145.516,"text":"那個本身是行政院在核定的過程還有在疫情的這個整個過程裡面發生了這個不管是原物料的漲價或者說這一個本來是要幾層變成幾層這樣的一個情勢所以最主要罰款的部分就是剛剛提到的不管是機載還有這個抗風結構的這個變更設計那現場看了之後我就發現變更設計它所增加的金額其實是幾千萬"},{"start":146.457,"end":167.14,"text":"那這個幾千萬的金額呢,我說真的,這一個中間其實有流標三次嘛那廠商能夠獲得的金額當然絕對不是幾千萬它是幾千萬的案子,不代表廠商獲得幾千萬所以廠商今天到底是獲得了多少的金錢,跟他最後處罰了多少金錢那個比例可能才是我們真正需要關心的"},{"start":167.82,"end":189.957,"text":"所以呢我從這一個我想要延伸因為我知道部長應該對這個案子很熟所以我想也可能不要直接說明就是說像這一種不管是質詢的內容還是新聞標題的方式其實常常會有極其誤導之能事就讓別人會覺得說哎呦怎麼比例上差那麼多那其實根本就不是這樣子來做比較那一樣的情形就發生在這幾天關於這一個潛艦海測的狀況然後呢就有看到什麼艦體變形啦然後明明是旁邊的那一個被動測驅的那個聲納嘛"},{"start":197.843,"end":217.08,"text":"塗起來那就有很多的粉專開始分享說是不是產生了問題等等之類的我們在整理的過程當中就發現它其實最早是來自於微博的武統工坊這個帳號然後台灣傻事之前已經參與了這個作戰很多次了"},{"start":217.62,"end":232.048,"text":"但我關心的是6月18號下午5點這個海峽之聲為什麼因為海峽之聲它背後的這一個是跟解放軍有關那也就是說這個一開始它所操作然後一直到它放大其實解放軍針對我們的海昆號有不實的資訊"},{"start":234.97,"end":254.607,"text":"那這個不實的資訊呢很快的又被台灣的幾個粉專或者說這一個特定的媒體然後做放大這就讓我想到就是我們禮拜一去考察的這個狀況就是說他們有時候呢即使沒有用不實資訊用一些比較誇大的方式來做比較然後就會讓國人誤以為說這邊是不是有弊案不管是"},{"start":255.007,"end":278.388,"text":"在講這個軍博館的還是在講這個海昆號的所以目前來講針對這一件事情闢謠的狀況以國防部來講是如何不管是海昆號的部分還是軍博館的部分我想就海昆號的部分先說明一下就是說艦體的那個突出的部分是被動側距聲納的一個護罩那麼這個是原廠本身就採用這個曲面設計屬於這個先進的這個"},{"start":281.17,"end":298.919,"text":"整個的雷達系統的一個裝備,國外的潛艦也是有的,包括這個澳洲的柯林斯級,還有英國的維多利亞級的潛艦也都是這樣子的,因為他要用這樣的設計來達到最佳的收音的一個效果,所以並不是如外界所講的說,"},{"start":305.365,"end":321.324,"text":"它事實上它的設計就是如此,因為它是在壓力殼的外面嘛,然後能夠達到一個最佳的一個徵收的效果。那軍部管的部分呢,我想"},{"start":322.563,"end":334.75,"text":"我來了國防部之後,我這邊只是表達我對軍火桿付出很大的一個心理因為軍火桿在國防部的斜對面的這個地方,它事實上在那個地方的"},{"start":336.533,"end":364.197,"text":"不是一個繁華的一個地方呢軍博館在行政院的支持下增加了這個那個坪數增加的量體等等那麼當然這個中間在我來之前有經過三次的這個變更設計那我們也依照合約依照相關的合約進行了罰款那現在最重要的部分在我看起來就是說如何讓軍博館成為一個每一個人都願意來了之後"},{"start":364.737,"end":391.267,"text":"再來的一個地方因為你要讓他的這個軍事的裝備的成長是看起來是非常具有可觀性的然後另外我們增加非常多的互動式的體驗我已經聽取了好多次報告我們這互動式的體驗我在這裡可以跟各位講就是說我們會希望這樣的會有互動式的體驗是在其他的博物館都看不到的"},{"start":391.787,"end":408.873,"text":"然後你會真正的感受到什麼叫做軍事的博物館我們朝這個方向來努力這樣好 謝謝部長因為這一個因為畢竟我們禮拜一有做了考察所以我剛花了一點時間來做一個說明我覺得這個考察有必要讓國人知道那其實很多次的變更設計都是跟安全有關係"},{"start":409.913,"end":430.155,"text":"我知道我們現在在考察的時候發現目前的施工進度是超前但是我還是要特別提醒一下因為畢竟本來的變更設計都是為了安全如果是為了安全 雖然現在進度是超前但如果說為了安全起見即使進度稍微落後我覺得國人應該都是能夠接受的"},{"start":430.715,"end":452.81,"text":"安全一定是第一啦我覺得這是我們第一個蠻重要的一個提醒那第二個就是呢我再稍微講一下就是說海關號這件事情呢就是我們都知道中國一定會做操作那它很明顯的操作就是其實是禮拜三下午三點然後跟五點的海峽直升這兩個大概是最而且它造成非常多數的觀看但台船出來說啊這個聲明說這個有誤已經等到六月十九號了"},{"start":453.63,"end":478.852,"text":"所以其實對我們來講就是說如果說我們已經知道對方一定會來做這些事情的話某種程度的預判如果能夠是在更早的時候針對這些事情來做辟謠的話我覺得對國人會有幫助然後他不然的話會等到說又是傍晚然後可能下午新聞出來之後電子媒體出來之後然後大家才知道說原來是一場誤會那這個部分可能再請國防部可能還要再費一點心所以我們會來精進來檢討"},{"start":481.434,"end":496.466,"text":"好 那因為時間到了我最後本來有一個問題是在講這一個就是剛剛地域委員其實已經問過了這個2060停目前的交貨速度那當然其實裡面還有一個戰鬥服的問題我私底下其實也已經有問過國軍那這個問題我可能等到下一次有機會的時候再來談好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":222,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時56分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["顧部長立雄：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。今天有好幾個討論事項，無人機的部分，我比較沒有什麼意見。關於國家軍事博物館，好幾位委員都有針對軍博館提出相關的預算凍結，我先說明一下，我想既然因為它有很多的事項，不管是質詢還是新聞的報導，大概很難獲得全貌，所以我們特別在禮拜一的時候去考察，滿多委員助理也都有出席，去瞭解整個預算增加的狀況。","我們看到第一個，從早期開始，它的預算編列有幾億的增加，但我後來發現大部分委員關心的其實並不是那一塊，而是中間的3次設計變更，包含基載還有抗風結構的變更。我們也看了這些變更之處，然後請建築師說明為何變更，裡面有提到一點，我覺得滿重要的是，因為新聞報導一直在說現在軍博館要花幾億等等之類的，然後又變更設計，這是因為廠商在中間評估的時候有一些失誤，所以最後要變更設計，而變更設計依照工程會的定型化契約有罰款規定，但罰款加起來卻只有幾百萬等等，就是用這樣比較聳動的標題，比如說這是幾億的案子，到最後卻只有幾百萬的罰款。","我們在當天考察的過程當中發現，第一個，罰款並不是針對一開始幾億、幾億的增加，而是行政院在核定的過程，還有在疫情的整個過程裡面，發生了不管是原物料的漲價，或者是本來要幾層變成幾層這樣的情事，所以最主要罰款的部分就是剛剛提到的，不管是基載，還有抗風結構的變更設計。現場看了之後，我就發現變更設計所增加的金額其實是幾千萬，這個幾千萬的金額，我說真的，中間其實有流標3次，廠商能夠獲得的金額，當然絕對不是幾千萬。它是幾千萬的案子，不代表廠商獲得幾千萬，所以廠商今天到底是獲得了多少的金錢，跟最後處罰了他多少金錢，那個比例可能才是我們真正需要關心的。","我從這個來延伸，因為我知道部長應該對這個案子很熟，所以可能也不直接說明，就是像這種不管是質詢的內容，還是新聞標題的方式，其實常常會有極其誤導之能事，就會讓別人覺得怎麼比例上差那麼多？其實根本就不是這樣來比較的。一樣的情形也發生在這幾天關於潛艦海測的狀況，明明是旁邊的「被動測距聲納」凸起來，卻說什麼看到艦體變形，然後就有很多粉專開始分享說裡面是不是產生了問題等等之類。我們在整理的過程當中，就發現其實最早是來自於微博的「五桶工坊」這個帳號，然後是「台灣傻事」帳號，「台灣傻事」這個帳號之前已經參與了作戰很多次，但我關心的是6月18日下午5點「海峽之聲」這個帳號，為什麼？因為「海峽之聲」背後是跟解放軍有關，也就是一開始所操作的，然後一直到放大，其實就是解放軍針對我們海鯤號的不實資訊，而這個不實的資訊很快又被臺灣的幾個粉專或者特定的媒體放大。","這讓我想到我們禮拜一考察的狀況，就是他們有時候即使沒有用不實資訊，也會用一些比較誇大的方式來做比較，然後就會讓國人誤以為這邊是不是有弊案？不管是在講軍博館，還是在講海鯤號。目前針對這件事情闢謠的狀況，以國防部來講是如何？不管是海鯤號的部分，還是軍博館的部分。"],["顧部長立雄：我想就海鯤號的部分先說明一下，艦體的凸出部分是「被動測距聲納」的一個護罩，這個是原廠本身就採用的曲面設計，屬於先進的整合雷達系統的一個裝備，國外的潛艦也是有的，包括澳洲的柯林斯級，還有英國的維多利亞級的潛艦，也都是這樣子，因為它要用這樣的設計來達到最佳收音效果，所以並不是如外界所講的艦體變形，事實上它的設計就是如此，因為它是在壓力殼的外面，然後能夠達到最佳的偵蒐效果。","關於軍博館的部分，這邊只是表達我來到國防部之後，對軍博館付出很大的心力。軍博館在國防部的斜對面，事實上那個位置不是一個繁華的地方。軍博館在行政院的支持之下，增加了坪數、增加了量體等等，在我來之前，中間經過3次的變更設計，我們也依照相關的合約進行了罰款。現在最重要的部分，在我看起來就是如何讓軍博館成為一個每一個人都願意來了再來的地方，要讓軍事裝備的陳展看起來是非常具有可觀性的。另外，我們增加非常多的互動式體驗，我已經聽取了好多次報告，這個互動式的體驗，我在這裡可以跟各位講，希望這樣的互動式體驗是在其他的博物館都看不到的，而且會真正的感受到什麼叫做軍事的博物館，我們朝這個方向來努力。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，畢竟我們禮拜一有做了考察，所以我剛花了一點時間來說明，我覺得這個考察也有必要讓國人知道，其實很多次的變更設計，都是跟安全有關係，我們那天考察的時候，發現目前的施工進度是超前的，但是我還是要特別提醒一下，畢竟本來的變更設計都是為了安全、為了安全起見，即使進度稍微落後，我覺得國人應該都是能夠接受的，我覺得安全一定是第一，這是第一個滿重要的提醒。第二個，我再稍微講一下關於海鯤號這件事情，我們都知道中國一定會做操作，很明顯的操作就是禮拜三下午3點跟5點的「海峽之聲」，而且有非常多的觀看數，但是等到台船出來聲明這個有誤，已經是到6月19日了，其實對我們來講，如果已經知道對方一定會做這些事情，在某種程度的預判下，能夠在更早針對這些事情來闢謠，我覺得對國人會有幫助。不然會等到傍晚，可能下午新聞出來之後、電子媒體出來之後，大家才知道原來是一場誤會，這個部分可能請國防部還要再費心。"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們會精進來檢討。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為時間到了，我最後本來有一個問題，就是剛剛定宇委員已經問過的，有關2060挺機槍目前的交貨速度，當然這裡面還有一個戰鬥服的問題，我私底下也已經有問過國軍，這個問題可能等到下次有機會的時候再來談，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋）：好，接下來有請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-21","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林岱樺","徐巧芯","林憶君","黃仁"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等6案；二、處理院\n會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等34案；三、處理院會交付114年度\n中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案1案；四、處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案1案","agenda_id":"1146201_00013"}}}