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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 820.008, \"end\": 820.168, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 820.168, \"end\": 820.628, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 820.628, \"end\": 820.888, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 820.888, \"end\": 821.069, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 821.069, \"end\": 821.149, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 821.149, \"end\": 821.169, \"score\": 0.037}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,563 --> 00:00:15,626\n好謝謝主席我們請次長還有這個能源署代理署長這個次長今天是環境部那能源署也來我們就是要關心高雄大樹河山光電這個案場\n\n2\n00:00:29,981 --> 00:00:53,570\n這個暗場是一個超高強度的開發高達51公頃而且這樣的一個山坡地他其實是有超過一半是四級的坡度就是他的坡度是30%到40%然後所以他必須鏟平山頭填平挖地讓整個山谷可以放置這個太陽能板\n\n3\n00:00:54,474 --> 00:01:17,490\n那這樣子的一個毀零重電還可以稱為是綠電嗎童子賢也是我們總統府的國家氣候變遷對策的副召集人他就說這種破壞植被森林的方式產生能源不應稱為綠能因為這是綠色不利我請教次長跟署長你們同意這句話嗎次長你同意嗎作為環境部的次長\n\n4\n00:01:24,327 --> 00:01:46,249\n當然要依法當然要依法它這個違法的話就不是我們說它是破壞環境的確是這樣子署長你同意嗎是的它這個是一個違法的案件所以我們撤銷它籌撤許可高雄市政委也取消它的開發好這一個案子不在於它是一個違法的案件接下來一頁我要讓大家看到這個始作俑者是誰\n\n5\n00:01:48,004 --> 00:02:08,734\n這一件事情是從2020年9月當時的行政院院長蘇貞昌他要達到6.5GW的光電目標經濟部所屬的自來水公司他就去招標土地所以現在大家看到的這一大片51公頃的地是誰的那個署長你說這地是誰的自來水公司自來水公司去招標的嗎\n\n6\n00:02:17,631 --> 00:02:46,013\n所以是政府經濟部所屬的自來水公司主動去招標土地為什麼招標這麼大片的土地為什麼招標是完全合法的那也是希望他得標的廠商要合法合規去做合法的所以這個程序是沒有問題合法的高達51公頃我剛剛講過他是四級坡度百分之三十到四十所以他造成的後果就是\n\n7\n00:02:46,593 --> 00:03:02,428\n他必須砍平山頭他才有可能重點報告委員他整個基地的面積是51公頃但是當時並不是全部核准他我再問你你們當時要他可以他可以申請的這個裝置容量是多少署長你說是我就看你們要說謊到什麼時候\n\n8\n00:03:09,763 --> 00:03:16,247\n你的裝置容量高達多少它是51公頃喔你的裝置容量是不是70MW如果70MW是不是要開發高達超過40公頃以上的土地不是這樣子我們核准它的面積是21公頃所以它超過它現在超過了它有兩個一個是設置太陽光墊那為什麼會通過51公頃的山坡地開發整個土地面積\n\n9\n00:03:37,117 --> 00:03:40,038\n那他現在超出多少他現在開發的範圍已經超出我們核准的範圍他超出幾公頃你告訴大家他現在開發幾公頃他現在開發幾公頃他整地的範圍已經超過21公頃了這個可能要問高雄市政府你到現在還沒有掌握媒體講的好像只超出2公頃吧\n\n10\n00:04:03,946 --> 00:04:15,764\n我們會跟高雄市政府因為他現在兩個部分你們會跟高雄市政府我今天要告訴大家的就是這件事情的始作俑者叫做經濟部經濟部要求自來水公司標租土地然後2022年12月21號\n\n11\n00:04:21,171 --> 00:04:35,940\n內政部他去許可開發他是有經過合法程序的2022年12月21號公文都在這邊內政部行文給高雄市政府高雄市政府也很配合12月21號發文12月29號高雄市政府就公告了\n\n12\n00:04:40,462 --> 00:04:42,264\n為什麼當時你們在審理這個程序的過程當中沒有人去質疑它這個四級的坡地佔的比例高達53%它是真的適合嗎你們這個過程當中有好好審理嗎\n\n13\n00:04:55,859 --> 00:05:23,353\n他這個程序是沒有問題的他這個山坡地開發所以他要做水土保值他也送了水土保值計畫那今天這個案的問題是他沒有依照他的計畫來執行所以才會有開發高雄市政府給他開發過七次那我們也開發過一次一把一百五十萬要他恢復原狀那因為他都沒有改善那所以高雄市政府取消他的這個開發許可那我們也取消他籌設許可是因為這樣子嗎\n\n14\n00:05:25,114 --> 00:05:27,396\n是,是因為這樣子嗎?如果今天不是國民黨的議員跟立委帶隊去考察媒體報的這麼大請問這整個案子會這樣子終止嗎?高雄市政府會發生嗎?經濟部會發生嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:41,787 --> 00:05:50,030\n自己回過去看上下游市集他們之前那個報導在五月份的時候高雄市政府還在說這個我們還要評估看看喔就是沒有覺得這個業者有什麼不對的地方你們是有開罰但是不覺得應該要終止為什麼現在終止了高雄市政府是有很認真在處理他開罰了七次你們也沒有要終止啊\n\n16\n00:06:06,457 --> 00:06:24,103\n你們只是開罰不痛不癢啊你們罰得到目前的金額對照未來這個巨大的獲利根本就是不痛不癢所以是什麼原因你們才會立刻終止因為民意的反彈嘛輿論的壓力嘛你們現在才出手去廢止嘛我今天要點出來的問題就是當時為什麼這麼大規模51公頃的開範你會覺得可以呢然後也都不用徵詢整個環境部的意見\n\n17\n00:06:34,367 --> 00:06:42,734\n環境部次長你們從頭到尾這個開發案你們有被邀請過去表示一下意見嗎這麼大恭喜因為這個是早期的開發案現在的環境有規定多早期這個才是2022年2022年12月29日剛好市政府才公告三年前是有多早期\n\n18\n00:06:50,580 --> 00:07:12,773\n當時不是因為土地面積那我們現在已經修正環保署這邊已經修正所以你過去就是一個錯誤嘛政策的錯誤引領而造成這樣的後果嘛而這樣的代價是高雄市民要去承擔的你根本回復不了另外一個案子我要繼續問台塘嘉義東石案場這個規模更大了毀林重建要高達77公頃\n\n19\n00:07:15,374 --> 00:07:40,083\n如果按照你們現在的環評標準的話只要位於政府核定補助或獎勵實施的造林之土地基因能源主管機關同意者不在此限所以嘉義東石的鄉親已經起來抗議要毀林重建高達77公頃對當地的破壞非常的大但是這個案子我就問要不要環評\n\n20\n00:07:41,363 --> 00:08:03,767\n新的辦法已經通過了這個正在進行中的這個案子要不要終止要不要比照高雄的案子停下來這個我們會來評估因為這個案子我們還沒有核准它那剛才這個法令上的規定主要是我們過去這個規定的造林地其實它是有行政院核定它是經濟林那本來就是一定時間之後經濟造林一定時間就要經過砍伐之後再重新種植\n\n21\n00:08:07,088 --> 00:08:36,286\n但是我們會來評估齁如果這個林鄉已經很好形成生態的話那我們就不會讓他去我坦白講經濟部的評估我們都不相信我要求環境部次長表態來次長像這個這麼大規模的高達77公頃你現行的環評裡面你為什麼給這一個經濟部能源主管機關一個上方保險就是只要是他們的造林的土地國有土地公有土地國營事業土地或公營事業土地\n\n22\n00:08:37,026 --> 00:08:57,217\n能源主管機關只要同意就不再實現就沒有你的角色就把你們踢開了這個合理嗎這是一個非常大的漏洞啊如果按照這個標準坦白講剛剛高雄的那個案例他就是自來水公司的土地一樣也沒有你環境部的角色啊都是經濟部說了算這樣子合理嗎\n\n23\n00:08:58,217 --> 00:09:07,146\n你環境部現在升格之後你的角色應該要展現出來吧你覺得這一條是不是應該要再修為什麼要給能源主管機關這麼大的權限\n\n24\n00:09:08,903 --> 00:09:28,812\n跟委員報告當時有特別提到因為是整個國家的政策在推動綠能那經濟部也會嚴格把關沒有嚴格把關我們是相信他要不可以用相信現在就是前面高雄的案例已經看出來了由他一手主導的就是造成破壞環境的元兇你們都沒有角色\n\n25\n00:09:29,352 --> 00:09:32,814\n這個部分我要求這個環境部回去要重修你的這個整個那個環評的這個標準要不然就是一個大漏洞你什麼都交給經濟部經濟部是以沖他的這個綠色光電為他第一目標他根本不顧環境正義的他就是努力往前沖所以你可以看到高雄的這個光電廠這麼的離譜就是因為他主導的嘛\n\n26\n00:09:53,743 --> 00:10:11,278\n那個源頭就是經濟部嘛而這當中都看不到環境部的角色嘛部會之間是要發揮彼此各自角色然後共同去監督結果我們沒有看到環境部的角色啊所以這個我要求第二個我的要求是現行到底還有多少案場\n\n27\n00:10:12,731 --> 00:10:27,061\n其實是有問題的經濟部自己主導免環評但是他可能還是存在一些環境評估影響的問題署長你能回答嗎你現在自己去盤點你手上多少案例我剛已經講了一個公使的這個大規模要毀零重電的77公頃這是一例喔還有多少案例他現在是大規模的開發\n\n28\n00:10:37,665 --> 00:10:58,981\n委員如果需要我們可以來做盤點因為我們現在大概我要求你們盤點光電案你要多久可以盤點出來我們大概一個月的時間我們盤點出來一個月要盤點出來我們大概會因為我們現在核准的案件它有九萬多件所以大部分是屋頂型的那我們會盤大型的地面型\n\n29\n00:10:59,781 --> 00:11:07,966\n這種毀零重電的好不好毀零重電無論是造零或者是山坡地的用大規模開發一定要列出來然後我要求環境部\n\n30\n00:11:09,502 --> 00:11:34,707\n經濟部盤點出來之後你們要召開會議你們要評估這當中有沒有涉及到跟高雄的這個光電廠案很像的不會跟委員報告在那個人工造林地我們一定是在那個林相不佳的地方才會做那雖然它是人工造林是經濟林但是我們現在的政策是如果它已經形成一個生態了那我們就不會去砍伐它了一定是在林相不佳的地方所以我們會跟農委會來\n\n31\n00:11:36,630 --> 00:11:39,222\n檢討什麼叫做臨向不佳的地方我們才會來利用\n\n32\n00:11:39,775 --> 00:11:43,358\n好我們現在發展綠能這個發展綠能是一件好事但是做過頭了衝過頭了不顧環境爭議就是一件壞事我們已經看到這個陸續的情況都出來了包括漁電共生最近的這個議題大家也看到這個只種電不養魚其實也造成一個很大的問題所以這個部分我要求環境部你們的角色要出來最後再提醒環境部一點\n\n33\n00:12:07,014 --> 00:12:11,240\n剛剛提到這個中火的部分這個次長我希望你在表達上面你要以一個環境部次長的高度來回答問題你有沒有看過北高行他真正他的這個意見他說空污防治是環境保護重要項目\n\n34\n00:12:24,577 --> 00:12:40,609\n因為各地方地理環境自然條件社會發展狀況產業結構等都不同因此環境保護事項有因地制宜的必要空污防治為地方是台中市地方自治範疇台中環保局採儲中火\n\n35\n00:12:46,032 --> 00:12:59,578\n罰還並廢止許可證屬於地方自治事項所以他要釐清的就是這個是台中市政府環保局的地方自治事項那我覺得這個環境部就是自己跳進來\n\n36\n00:13:00,899 --> 00:13:20,710\n跳進來公清便是主而且呢還要繼續上訴我真的覺得你們這件事到此為止吧你們這樣的一個干預地方政府他去行他的空污防治的作業你們這樣子根本就違反了環境部你們基本的職責跟所在所以這個部分我認為這個環境部你們是失職\n\n37\n00:13:23,592 --> 00:13:41,169\n你們應該去支持台中市環保局就是對於任何的空汙可以嚴格的去查緝而不是出來阻擋他們要去這個採訪這個過度燃煤的這樣的一個情況你們還要出來阻止我覺得這個環境部是做錯了好以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7563\t15626\t好謝謝主席我們請次長還有這個能源署代理署長這個次長今天是環境部那能源署也來我們就是要關心高雄大樹河山光電這個案場\n29981\t53570\t這個暗場是一個超高強度的開發高達51公頃而且這樣的一個山坡地他其實是有超過一半是四級的坡度就是他的坡度是30%到40%然後所以他必須鏟平山頭填平挖地讓整個山谷可以放置這個太陽能板\n54474\t77490\t那這樣子的一個毀零重電還可以稱為是綠電嗎童子賢也是我們總統府的國家氣候變遷對策的副召集人他就說這種破壞植被森林的方式產生能源不應稱為綠能因為這是綠色不利我請教次長跟署長你們同意這句話嗎次長你同意嗎作為環境部的次長\n84327\t106249\t當然要依法 當然要依法 它這個違法的話就不是我們說它是破壞環境的確是這樣子署長你同意嗎是的 它這個是一個違法的案件 所以我們撤銷它 籌撤許可高雄市政委也取消它的開發好 這一個案子不在於它是一個違法的案件接下來一頁我要讓大家看到 這個始作俑者是誰\n108004\t128734\t這一件事情是從2020年9月當時的行政院院長蘇貞昌他要達到6.5GW的光電目標經濟部所屬的自來水公司他就去招標土地所以現在大家看到的這一大片51公頃的地是誰的那個署長你說這地是誰的自來水公司自來水公司去招標的嗎\n137631\t166013\t所以是政府經濟部所屬的自來水公司主動去招標土地為什麼招標這麼大片的土地為什麼招標是完全合法的那也是希望他得標的廠商要合法合規去做合法的所以這個程序是沒有問題合法的高達51公頃我剛剛講過他是四級坡度百分之三十到四十所以他造成的後果就是\n166593\t182428\t他必須砍平山頭 他才有可能重點報告委員 他整個基地的面積是51公頃但是當時並不是全部核准他我再問你 你們當時要他可以 他可以申請的這個裝置容量是多少署長你說是 我就看你們要說謊到什麼時候\n189763\t196247\t你的裝置容量高達多少 它是51公頃喔你的裝置容量是不是70MW如果70MW是不是要開發高達超過40公頃以上的土地不是這樣子 我們核准它的面積是21公頃所以它超過 它現在超過了它有兩個 一個是設置太陽光墊那為什麼會通過51公頃的山坡地開發整個土地面積\n217117\t220038\t那他現在超出多少他現在開發的範圍已經超出我們核准的範圍他超出幾公頃你告訴大家他現在開發幾公頃他現在開發幾公頃他整地的範圍已經超過21公頃了這個可能要問高雄市政府你到現在還沒有掌握媒體講的好像只超出2公頃吧\n243946\t255764\t我們會跟高雄市政府因為他現在兩個部分你們會跟高雄市政府我今天要告訴大家的就是這件事情的始作俑者叫做經濟部經濟部要求自來水公司標租土地然後2022年12月21號\n261171\t275940\t內政部他去許可開發他是有經過合法程序的2022年12月21號公文都在這邊內政部行文給高雄市政府高雄市政府也很配合12月21號發文12月29號高雄市政府就公告了\n280462\t282264\t為什麼當時你們在審理這個程序的過程當中沒有人去質疑它這個四級的坡地佔的比例高達53%它是真的適合嗎你們這個過程當中有好好審理嗎\n295859\t323353\t他這個程序是沒有問題的他這個山坡地開發所以他要做水土保值他也送了水土保值計畫那今天這個案的問題是他沒有依照他的計畫來執行所以才會有開發高雄市政府給他開發過七次那我們也開發過一次一把一百五十萬要他恢復原狀那因為他都沒有改善那所以高雄市政府取消他的這個開發許可那我們也取消他籌設許可是因為這樣子嗎\n325114\t327396\t是,是因為這樣子嗎?如果今天不是國民黨的議員跟立委帶隊去考察媒體報的這麼大請問這整個案子會這樣子終止嗎?高雄市政府會發生嗎?經濟部會發生嗎?\n341787\t350030\t自己回過去看上下游市集他們之前那個報導在五月份的時候高雄市政府還在說這個我們還要評估看看喔就是沒有覺得這個業者有什麼不對的地方你們是有開罰但是不覺得應該要終止為什麼現在終止了高雄市政府是有很認真在處理他開罰了七次你們也沒有要終止啊\n366457\t384103\t你們只是開罰不痛不癢啊你們罰得到目前的金額對照未來這個巨大的獲利根本就是不痛不癢所以是什麼原因你們才會立刻終止因為民意的反彈嘛輿論的壓力嘛你們現在才出手去廢止嘛我今天要點出來的問題就是當時為什麼這麼大規模51公頃的開範你會覺得可以呢然後也都不用徵詢整個環境部的意見\n394367\t402734\t環境部次長你們從頭到尾這個開發案你們有被邀請過去表示一下意見嗎這麼大恭喜因為這個是早期的開發案現在的環境有規定多早期 這個才是2022年2022年12月29日剛好市政府才公告三年前是有多早期\n410580\t432773\t當時不是因為土地面積 那我們現在已經修正 環保署這邊已經修正所以你過去就是一個錯誤嘛政策的錯誤引領而造成這樣的後果嘛 而這樣的代價是高雄市民要去承擔的你根本回復不了 另外一個案子我要繼續問台塘嘉義東石案場 這個規模更大了毀林重建要高達77公頃\n435374\t460083\t如果按照你們現在的環評標準的話只要位於政府核定補助或獎勵實施的造林之土地基因能源主管機關同意者不在此限所以嘉義東石的鄉親已經起來抗議要毀林重建高達77公頃對當地的破壞非常的大但是這個案子我就問要不要環評\n461363\t483767\t新的辦法已經通過了這個正在進行中的這個案子要不要終止要不要比照高雄的案子停下來這個我們會來評估因為這個案子我們還沒有核准它那剛才這個法令上的規定主要是我們過去這個規定的造林地其實它是有行政院核定它是經濟林那本來就是一定時間之後經濟造林一定時間就要經過砍伐之後再重新種植\n487088\t516286\t但是我們會來評估齁如果這個林鄉已經很好形成生態的話那我們就不會讓他去我坦白講經濟部的評估我們都不相信我要求環境部次長表態來 次長像這個這麼大規模的高達77公頃你現行的環評裡面你為什麼給這一個經濟部能源主管機關一個上方保險就是只要是他們的造林的土地國有土地 公有土地 國營事業土地或公營事業土地\n517026\t537217\t能源主管機關只要同意就不再實現就沒有你的角色就把你們踢開了這個合理嗎這是一個非常大的漏洞啊如果按照這個標準坦白講剛剛高雄的那個案例他就是自來水公司的土地一樣也沒有你環境部的角色啊都是經濟部說了算這樣子合理嗎\n538217\t547146\t你環境部現在升格之後你的角色應該要展現出來吧你覺得這一條是不是應該要再修為什麼要給能源主管機關這麼大的權限\n548903\t568812\t跟委員報告當時有特別提到因為是整個國家的政策在推動綠能那經濟部也會嚴格把關沒有嚴格把關我們是相信他要不可以用相信現在就是前面高雄的案例已經看出來了由他一手主導的就是造成破壞環境的元兇你們都沒有角色\n569352\t572814\t這個部分我要求這個環境部回去要重修你的這個整個那個環評的這個標準要不然就是一個大漏洞你什麼都交給經濟部經濟部是以沖他的這個綠色光電為他第一目標他根本不顧環境正義的他就是努力往前沖所以你可以看到高雄的這個光電廠這麼的離譜就是因為他主導的嘛\n593743\t611278\t那個源頭就是經濟部嘛而這當中都看不到環境部的角色嘛部會之間是要發揮彼此各自角色然後共同去監督結果我們沒有看到環境部的角色啊所以這個我要求第二個我的要求是現行到底還有多少案場\n612731\t627061\t其實是有問題的經濟部自己主導免環評但是他可能還是存在一些環境評估影響的問題署長你能回答嗎你現在自己去盤點你手上多少案例我剛已經講了一個公使的這個大規模要毀零重電的77公頃這是一例喔還有多少案例他現在是大規模的開發\n637665\t658981\t委員如果需要我們可以來做盤點因為我們現在大概我要求你們盤點光電案你要多久可以盤點出來我們大概一個月的時間我們盤點出來一個月要盤點出來我們大概會因為我們現在核准的案件它有九萬多件所以大部分是屋頂型的那我們會盤大型的地面型\n659781\t667966\t這種毀零重電的好不好毀零重電無論是造零或者是山坡地的用大規模開發一定要列出來然後我要求環境部\n669502\t694707\t經濟部盤點出來之後你們要召開會議你們要評估這當中有沒有涉及到跟高雄的這個光電廠案很像的不會 跟委員報告在那個人工造林地我們一定是在那個林相不佳的地方才會做那雖然它是人工造林是經濟林但是我們現在的政策是如果它已經形成一個生態了那我們就不會去砍伐它了一定是在林相不佳的地方所以我們會跟農委會來\n696630\t699222\t檢討什麼叫做臨向不佳的地方我們才會來利用\n699775\t703358\t好 我們現在發展綠能 這個發展綠能是一件好事但是做過頭了 衝過頭了 不顧環境爭議就是一件壞事我們已經看到這個陸續的情況都出來了 包括漁電共生最近的這個議題 大家也看到這個只種電不養魚 其實也造成一個很大的問題所以這個部分 我要求環境部 你們的角色要出來最後再提醒環境部一點\n727014\t731240\t剛剛提到這個中火的部分這個次長我希望你在表達上面你要以一個環境部次長的高度來回答問題你有沒有看過北高行他真正他的這個意見他說空污防治是環境保護重要項目\n744577\t760609\t因為各地方地理環境自然條件社會發展狀況產業結構等都不同因此環境保護事項有因地制宜的必要空污防治為地方是台中市地方自治範疇台中環保局採儲中火\n766032\t779578\t罰還並廢止許可證屬於地方自治事項所以他要釐清的就是這個是台中市政府環保局的地方自治事項那我覺得這個環境部就是自己跳進來\n780899\t800710\t跳進來公清便是主而且呢還要繼續上訴我真的覺得你們這件事到此為止吧你們這樣的一個干預地方政府他去行他的空污防治的作業你們這樣子根本就違反了環境部你們基本的職責跟所在所以這個部分我認為這個環境部你們是失職\n803592\t821169\t你們應該去支持台中市環保局就是對於任何的空汙可以嚴格的去查緝而不是出來阻擋他們要去這個採訪這個過度燃煤的這樣的一個情況你們還要出來阻止我覺得這個環境部是做錯了好 以上謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們請次長還有這個能源署代理署長這個次長今天是環境部那能源署也來我們就是要關心高雄大樹河山光電這個案場\n這個暗場是一個超高強度的開發高達51公頃而且這樣的一個山坡地他其實是有超過一半是四級的坡度就是他的坡度是30%到40%然後所以他必須鏟平山頭填平挖地讓整個山谷可以放置這個太陽能板\n那這樣子的一個毀零重電還可以稱為是綠電嗎童子賢也是我們總統府的國家氣候變遷對策的副召集人他就說這種破壞植被森林的方式產生能源不應稱為綠能因為這是綠色不利我請教次長跟署長你們同意這句話嗎次長你同意嗎作為環境部的次長\n當然要依法 當然要依法 它這個違法的話就不是我們說它是破壞環境的確是這樣子署長你同意嗎是的 它這個是一個違法的案件 所以我們撤銷它 籌撤許可高雄市政委也取消它的開發好 這一個案子不在於它是一個違法的案件接下來一頁我要讓大家看到 這個始作俑者是誰\n這一件事情是從2020年9月當時的行政院院長蘇貞昌他要達到6.5GW的光電目標經濟部所屬的自來水公司他就去招標土地所以現在大家看到的這一大片51公頃的地是誰的那個署長你說這地是誰的自來水公司自來水公司去招標的嗎\n所以是政府經濟部所屬的自來水公司主動去招標土地為什麼招標這麼大片的土地為什麼招標是完全合法的那也是希望他得標的廠商要合法合規去做合法的所以這個程序是沒有問題合法的高達51公頃我剛剛講過他是四級坡度百分之三十到四十所以他造成的後果就是\n他必須砍平山頭 他才有可能重點報告委員 他整個基地的面積是51公頃但是當時並不是全部核准他我再問你 你們當時要他可以 他可以申請的這個裝置容量是多少署長你說是 我就看你們要說謊到什麼時候\n你的裝置容量高達多少 它是51公頃喔你的裝置容量是不是70MW如果70MW是不是要開發高達超過40公頃以上的土地不是這樣子 我們核准它的面積是21公頃所以它超過 它現在超過了它有兩個 一個是設置太陽光墊那為什麼會通過51公頃的山坡地開發整個土地面積\n那他現在超出多少他現在開發的範圍已經超出我們核准的範圍他超出幾公頃你告訴大家他現在開發幾公頃他現在開發幾公頃他整地的範圍已經超過21公頃了這個可能要問高雄市政府你到現在還沒有掌握媒體講的好像只超出2公頃吧\n我們會跟高雄市政府因為他現在兩個部分你們會跟高雄市政府我今天要告訴大家的就是這件事情的始作俑者叫做經濟部經濟部要求自來水公司標租土地然後2022年12月21號\n內政部他去許可開發他是有經過合法程序的2022年12月21號公文都在這邊內政部行文給高雄市政府高雄市政府也很配合12月21號發文12月29號高雄市政府就公告了\n為什麼當時你們在審理這個程序的過程當中沒有人去質疑它這個四級的坡地佔的比例高達53%它是真的適合嗎你們這個過程當中有好好審理嗎\n他這個程序是沒有問題的他這個山坡地開發所以他要做水土保值他也送了水土保值計畫那今天這個案的問題是他沒有依照他的計畫來執行所以才會有開發高雄市政府給他開發過七次那我們也開發過一次一把一百五十萬要他恢復原狀那因為他都沒有改善那所以高雄市政府取消他的這個開發許可那我們也取消他籌設許可是因為這樣子嗎\n是,是因為這樣子嗎?如果今天不是國民黨的議員跟立委帶隊去考察媒體報的這麼大請問這整個案子會這樣子終止嗎?高雄市政府會發生嗎?經濟部會發生嗎?\n自己回過去看上下游市集他們之前那個報導在五月份的時候高雄市政府還在說這個我們還要評估看看喔就是沒有覺得這個業者有什麼不對的地方你們是有開罰但是不覺得應該要終止為什麼現在終止了高雄市政府是有很認真在處理他開罰了七次你們也沒有要終止啊\n你們只是開罰不痛不癢啊你們罰得到目前的金額對照未來這個巨大的獲利根本就是不痛不癢所以是什麼原因你們才會立刻終止因為民意的反彈嘛輿論的壓力嘛你們現在才出手去廢止嘛我今天要點出來的問題就是當時為什麼這麼大規模51公頃的開範你會覺得可以呢然後也都不用徵詢整個環境部的意見\n環境部次長你們從頭到尾這個開發案你們有被邀請過去表示一下意見嗎這麼大恭喜因為這個是早期的開發案現在的環境有規定多早期 這個才是2022年2022年12月29日剛好市政府才公告三年前是有多早期\n當時不是因為土地面積 那我們現在已經修正 環保署這邊已經修正所以你過去就是一個錯誤嘛政策的錯誤引領而造成這樣的後果嘛 而這樣的代價是高雄市民要去承擔的你根本回復不了 另外一個案子我要繼續問台塘嘉義東石案場 這個規模更大了毀林重建要高達77公頃\n如果按照你們現在的環評標準的話只要位於政府核定補助或獎勵實施的造林之土地基因能源主管機關同意者不在此限所以嘉義東石的鄉親已經起來抗議要毀林重建高達77公頃對當地的破壞非常的大但是這個案子我就問要不要環評\n新的辦法已經通過了這個正在進行中的這個案子要不要終止要不要比照高雄的案子停下來這個我們會來評估因為這個案子我們還沒有核准它那剛才這個法令上的規定主要是我們過去這個規定的造林地其實它是有行政院核定它是經濟林那本來就是一定時間之後經濟造林一定時間就要經過砍伐之後再重新種植\n但是我們會來評估齁如果這個林鄉已經很好形成生態的話那我們就不會讓他去我坦白講經濟部的評估我們都不相信我要求環境部次長表態來 次長像這個這麼大規模的高達77公頃你現行的環評裡面你為什麼給這一個經濟部能源主管機關一個上方保險就是只要是他們的造林的土地國有土地 公有土地 國營事業土地或公營事業土地\n能源主管機關只要同意就不再實現就沒有你的角色就把你們踢開了這個合理嗎這是一個非常大的漏洞啊如果按照這個標準坦白講剛剛高雄的那個案例他就是自來水公司的土地一樣也沒有你環境部的角色啊都是經濟部說了算這樣子合理嗎\n你環境部現在升格之後你的角色應該要展現出來吧你覺得這一條是不是應該要再修為什麼要給能源主管機關這麼大的權限\n跟委員報告當時有特別提到因為是整個國家的政策在推動綠能那經濟部也會嚴格把關沒有嚴格把關我們是相信他要不可以用相信現在就是前面高雄的案例已經看出來了由他一手主導的就是造成破壞環境的元兇你們都沒有角色\n這個部分我要求這個環境部回去要重修你的這個整個那個環評的這個標準要不然就是一個大漏洞你什麼都交給經濟部經濟部是以沖他的這個綠色光電為他第一目標他根本不顧環境正義的他就是努力往前沖所以你可以看到高雄的這個光電廠這麼的離譜就是因為他主導的嘛\n那個源頭就是經濟部嘛而這當中都看不到環境部的角色嘛部會之間是要發揮彼此各自角色然後共同去監督結果我們沒有看到環境部的角色啊所以這個我要求第二個我的要求是現行到底還有多少案場\n其實是有問題的經濟部自己主導免環評但是他可能還是存在一些環境評估影響的問題署長你能回答嗎你現在自己去盤點你手上多少案例我剛已經講了一個公使的這個大規模要毀零重電的77公頃這是一例喔還有多少案例他現在是大規模的開發\n委員如果需要我們可以來做盤點因為我們現在大概我要求你們盤點光電案你要多久可以盤點出來我們大概一個月的時間我們盤點出來一個月要盤點出來我們大概會因為我們現在核准的案件它有九萬多件所以大部分是屋頂型的那我們會盤大型的地面型\n這種毀零重電的好不好毀零重電無論是造零或者是山坡地的用大規模開發一定要列出來然後我要求環境部\n經濟部盤點出來之後你們要召開會議你們要評估這當中有沒有涉及到跟高雄的這個光電廠案很像的不會 跟委員報告在那個人工造林地我們一定是在那個林相不佳的地方才會做那雖然它是人工造林是經濟林但是我們現在的政策是如果它已經形成一個生態了那我們就不會去砍伐它了一定是在林相不佳的地方所以我們會跟農委會來\n檢討什麼叫做臨向不佳的地方我們才會來利用\n好 我們現在發展綠能 這個發展綠能是一件好事但是做過頭了 衝過頭了 不顧環境爭議就是一件壞事我們已經看到這個陸續的情況都出來了 包括漁電共生最近的這個議題 大家也看到這個只種電不養魚 其實也造成一個很大的問題所以這個部分 我要求環境部 你們的角色要出來最後再提醒環境部一點\n剛剛提到這個中火的部分這個次長我希望你在表達上面你要以一個環境部次長的高度來回答問題你有沒有看過北高行他真正他的這個意見他說空污防治是環境保護重要項目\n因為各地方地理環境自然條件社會發展狀況產業結構等都不同因此環境保護事項有因地制宜的必要空污防治為地方是台中市地方自治範疇台中環保局採儲中火\n罰還並廢止許可證屬於地方自治事項所以他要釐清的就是這個是台中市政府環保局的地方自治事項那我覺得這個環境部就是自己跳進來\n跳進來公清便是主而且呢還要繼續上訴我真的覺得你們這件事到此為止吧你們這樣的一個干預地方政府他去行他的空污防治的作業你們這樣子根本就違反了環境部你們基本的職責跟所在所以這個部分我認為這個環境部你們是失職\n你們應該去支持台中市環保局就是對於任何的空汙可以嚴格的去查緝而不是出來阻擋他們要去這個採訪這個過度燃煤的這樣的一個情況你們還要出來阻止我覺得這個環境部是做錯了好 以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.563 --> 00:15.626\n好謝謝主席我們請次長還有這個能源署代理署長這個次長今天是環境部那能源署也來我們就是要關心高雄大樹河山光電這個案場\n\n00:29.981 --> 00:53.570\n這個暗場是一個超高強度的開發高達51公頃而且這樣的一個山坡地他其實是有超過一半是四級的坡度就是他的坡度是30%到40%然後所以他必須鏟平山頭填平挖地讓整個山谷可以放置這個太陽能板\n\n00:54.474 --> 01:17.490\n那這樣子的一個毀零重電還可以稱為是綠電嗎童子賢也是我們總統府的國家氣候變遷對策的副召集人他就說這種破壞植被森林的方式產生能源不應稱為綠能因為這是綠色不利我請教次長跟署長你們同意這句話嗎次長你同意嗎作為環境部的次長\n\n01:24.327 --> 01:46.249\n當然要依法當然要依法它這個違法的話就不是我們說它是破壞環境的確是這樣子署長你同意嗎是的它這個是一個違法的案件所以我們撤銷它籌撤許可高雄市政委也取消它的開發好這一個案子不在於它是一個違法的案件接下來一頁我要讓大家看到這個始作俑者是誰\n\n01:48.004 --> 02:08.734\n這一件事情是從2020年9月當時的行政院院長蘇貞昌他要達到6.5GW的光電目標經濟部所屬的自來水公司他就去招標土地所以現在大家看到的這一大片51公頃的地是誰的那個署長你說這地是誰的自來水公司自來水公司去招標的嗎\n\n02:17.631 --> 02:46.013\n所以是政府經濟部所屬的自來水公司主動去招標土地為什麼招標這麼大片的土地為什麼招標是完全合法的那也是希望他得標的廠商要合法合規去做合法的所以這個程序是沒有問題合法的高達51公頃我剛剛講過他是四級坡度百分之三十到四十所以他造成的後果就是\n\n02:46.593 --> 03:02.428\n他必須砍平山頭他才有可能重點報告委員他整個基地的面積是51公頃但是當時並不是全部核准他我再問你你們當時要他可以他可以申請的這個裝置容量是多少署長你說是我就看你們要說謊到什麼時候\n\n03:09.763 --> 03:16.247\n你的裝置容量高達多少它是51公頃喔你的裝置容量是不是70MW如果70MW是不是要開發高達超過40公頃以上的土地不是這樣子我們核准它的面積是21公頃所以它超過它現在超過了它有兩個一個是設置太陽光墊那為什麼會通過51公頃的山坡地開發整個土地面積\n\n03:37.117 --> 03:40.038\n那他現在超出多少他現在開發的範圍已經超出我們核准的範圍他超出幾公頃你告訴大家他現在開發幾公頃他現在開發幾公頃他整地的範圍已經超過21公頃了這個可能要問高雄市政府你到現在還沒有掌握媒體講的好像只超出2公頃吧\n\n04:03.946 --> 04:15.764\n我們會跟高雄市政府因為他現在兩個部分你們會跟高雄市政府我今天要告訴大家的就是這件事情的始作俑者叫做經濟部經濟部要求自來水公司標租土地然後2022年12月21號\n\n04:21.171 --> 04:35.940\n內政部他去許可開發他是有經過合法程序的2022年12月21號公文都在這邊內政部行文給高雄市政府高雄市政府也很配合12月21號發文12月29號高雄市政府就公告了\n\n04:40.462 --> 04:42.264\n為什麼當時你們在審理這個程序的過程當中沒有人去質疑它這個四級的坡地佔的比例高達53%它是真的適合嗎你們這個過程當中有好好審理嗎\n\n04:55.859 --> 05:23.353\n他這個程序是沒有問題的他這個山坡地開發所以他要做水土保值他也送了水土保值計畫那今天這個案的問題是他沒有依照他的計畫來執行所以才會有開發高雄市政府給他開發過七次那我們也開發過一次一把一百五十萬要他恢復原狀那因為他都沒有改善那所以高雄市政府取消他的這個開發許可那我們也取消他籌設許可是因為這樣子嗎\n\n05:25.114 --> 05:27.396\n是,是因為這樣子嗎?如果今天不是國民黨的議員跟立委帶隊去考察媒體報的這麼大請問這整個案子會這樣子終止嗎?高雄市政府會發生嗎?經濟部會發生嗎?\n\n05:41.787 --> 05:50.030\n自己回過去看上下游市集他們之前那個報導在五月份的時候高雄市政府還在說這個我們還要評估看看喔就是沒有覺得這個業者有什麼不對的地方你們是有開罰但是不覺得應該要終止為什麼現在終止了高雄市政府是有很認真在處理他開罰了七次你們也沒有要終止啊\n\n06:06.457 --> 06:24.103\n你們只是開罰不痛不癢啊你們罰得到目前的金額對照未來這個巨大的獲利根本就是不痛不癢所以是什麼原因你們才會立刻終止因為民意的反彈嘛輿論的壓力嘛你們現在才出手去廢止嘛我今天要點出來的問題就是當時為什麼這麼大規模51公頃的開範你會覺得可以呢然後也都不用徵詢整個環境部的意見\n\n06:34.367 --> 06:42.734\n環境部次長你們從頭到尾這個開發案你們有被邀請過去表示一下意見嗎這麼大恭喜因為這個是早期的開發案現在的環境有規定多早期這個才是2022年2022年12月29日剛好市政府才公告三年前是有多早期\n\n06:50.580 --> 07:12.773\n當時不是因為土地面積那我們現在已經修正環保署這邊已經修正所以你過去就是一個錯誤嘛政策的錯誤引領而造成這樣的後果嘛而這樣的代價是高雄市民要去承擔的你根本回復不了另外一個案子我要繼續問台塘嘉義東石案場這個規模更大了毀林重建要高達77公頃\n\n07:15.374 --> 07:40.083\n如果按照你們現在的環評標準的話只要位於政府核定補助或獎勵實施的造林之土地基因能源主管機關同意者不在此限所以嘉義東石的鄉親已經起來抗議要毀林重建高達77公頃對當地的破壞非常的大但是這個案子我就問要不要環評\n\n07:41.363 --> 08:03.767\n新的辦法已經通過了這個正在進行中的這個案子要不要終止要不要比照高雄的案子停下來這個我們會來評估因為這個案子我們還沒有核准它那剛才這個法令上的規定主要是我們過去這個規定的造林地其實它是有行政院核定它是經濟林那本來就是一定時間之後經濟造林一定時間就要經過砍伐之後再重新種植\n\n08:07.088 --> 08:36.286\n但是我們會來評估齁如果這個林鄉已經很好形成生態的話那我們就不會讓他去我坦白講經濟部的評估我們都不相信我要求環境部次長表態來次長像這個這麼大規模的高達77公頃你現行的環評裡面你為什麼給這一個經濟部能源主管機關一個上方保險就是只要是他們的造林的土地國有土地公有土地國營事業土地或公營事業土地\n\n08:37.026 --> 08:57.217\n能源主管機關只要同意就不再實現就沒有你的角色就把你們踢開了這個合理嗎這是一個非常大的漏洞啊如果按照這個標準坦白講剛剛高雄的那個案例他就是自來水公司的土地一樣也沒有你環境部的角色啊都是經濟部說了算這樣子合理嗎\n\n08:58.217 --> 09:07.146\n你環境部現在升格之後你的角色應該要展現出來吧你覺得這一條是不是應該要再修為什麼要給能源主管機關這麼大的權限\n\n09:08.903 --> 09:28.812\n跟委員報告當時有特別提到因為是整個國家的政策在推動綠能那經濟部也會嚴格把關沒有嚴格把關我們是相信他要不可以用相信現在就是前面高雄的案例已經看出來了由他一手主導的就是造成破壞環境的元兇你們都沒有角色\n\n09:29.352 --> 09:32.814\n這個部分我要求這個環境部回去要重修你的這個整個那個環評的這個標準要不然就是一個大漏洞你什麼都交給經濟部經濟部是以沖他的這個綠色光電為他第一目標他根本不顧環境正義的他就是努力往前沖所以你可以看到高雄的這個光電廠這麼的離譜就是因為他主導的嘛\n\n09:53.743 --> 10:11.278\n那個源頭就是經濟部嘛而這當中都看不到環境部的角色嘛部會之間是要發揮彼此各自角色然後共同去監督結果我們沒有看到環境部的角色啊所以這個我要求第二個我的要求是現行到底還有多少案場\n\n10:12.731 --> 10:27.061\n其實是有問題的經濟部自己主導免環評但是他可能還是存在一些環境評估影響的問題署長你能回答嗎你現在自己去盤點你手上多少案例我剛已經講了一個公使的這個大規模要毀零重電的77公頃這是一例喔還有多少案例他現在是大規模的開發\n\n10:37.665 --> 10:58.981\n委員如果需要我們可以來做盤點因為我們現在大概我要求你們盤點光電案你要多久可以盤點出來我們大概一個月的時間我們盤點出來一個月要盤點出來我們大概會因為我們現在核准的案件它有九萬多件所以大部分是屋頂型的那我們會盤大型的地面型\n\n10:59.781 --> 11:07.966\n這種毀零重電的好不好毀零重電無論是造零或者是山坡地的用大規模開發一定要列出來然後我要求環境部\n\n11:09.502 --> 11:34.707\n經濟部盤點出來之後你們要召開會議你們要評估這當中有沒有涉及到跟高雄的這個光電廠案很像的不會跟委員報告在那個人工造林地我們一定是在那個林相不佳的地方才會做那雖然它是人工造林是經濟林但是我們現在的政策是如果它已經形成一個生態了那我們就不會去砍伐它了一定是在林相不佳的地方所以我們會跟農委會來\n\n11:36.630 --> 11:39.222\n檢討什麼叫做臨向不佳的地方我們才會來利用\n\n11:39.775 --> 11:43.358\n好我們現在發展綠能這個發展綠能是一件好事但是做過頭了衝過頭了不顧環境爭議就是一件壞事我們已經看到這個陸續的情況都出來了包括漁電共生最近的這個議題大家也看到這個只種電不養魚其實也造成一個很大的問題所以這個部分我要求環境部你們的角色要出來最後再提醒環境部一點\n\n12:07.014 --> 12:11.240\n剛剛提到這個中火的部分這個次長我希望你在表達上面你要以一個環境部次長的高度來回答問題你有沒有看過北高行他真正他的這個意見他說空污防治是環境保護重要項目\n\n12:24.577 --> 12:40.609\n因為各地方地理環境自然條件社會發展狀況產業結構等都不同因此環境保護事項有因地制宜的必要空污防治為地方是台中市地方自治範疇台中環保局採儲中火\n\n12:46.032 --> 12:59.578\n罰還並廢止許可證屬於地方自治事項所以他要釐清的就是這個是台中市政府環保局的地方自治事項那我覺得這個環境部就是自己跳進來\n\n13:00.899 --> 13:20.710\n跳進來公清便是主而且呢還要繼續上訴我真的覺得你們這件事到此為止吧你們這樣的一個干預地方政府他去行他的空污防治的作業你們這樣子根本就違反了環境部你們基本的職責跟所在所以這個部分我認為這個環境部你們是失職\n\n13:23.592 --> 13:41.169\n你們應該去支持台中市環保局就是對於任何的空汙可以嚴格的去查緝而不是出來阻擋他們要去這個採訪這個過度燃煤的這樣的一個情況你們還要出來阻止我覺得這個環境部是做錯了好以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.563,"end":15.626,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請次長還有這個能源署代理署長這個次長今天是環境部那能源署也來我們就是要關心高雄大樹河山光電這個案場"},{"start":29.981,"end":53.57,"text":"這個暗場是一個超高強度的開發高達51公頃而且這樣的一個山坡地他其實是有超過一半是四級的坡度就是他的坡度是30%到40%然後所以他必須鏟平山頭填平挖地讓整個山谷可以放置這個太陽能板"},{"start":54.474,"end":77.49,"text":"那這樣子的一個毀零重電還可以稱為是綠電嗎童子賢也是我們總統府的國家氣候變遷對策的副召集人他就說這種破壞植被森林的方式產生能源不應稱為綠能因為這是綠色不利我請教次長跟署長你們同意這句話嗎次長你同意嗎作為環境部的次長"},{"start":84.327,"end":106.249,"text":"當然要依法 當然要依法 它這個違法的話就不是我們說它是破壞環境的確是這樣子署長你同意嗎是的 它這個是一個違法的案件 所以我們撤銷它 籌撤許可高雄市政委也取消它的開發好 這一個案子不在於它是一個違法的案件接下來一頁我要讓大家看到 這個始作俑者是誰"},{"start":108.004,"end":128.734,"text":"這一件事情是從2020年9月當時的行政院院長蘇貞昌他要達到6.5GW的光電目標經濟部所屬的自來水公司他就去招標土地所以現在大家看到的這一大片51公頃的地是誰的那個署長你說這地是誰的自來水公司自來水公司去招標的嗎"},{"start":137.631,"end":166.013,"text":"所以是政府經濟部所屬的自來水公司主動去招標土地為什麼招標這麼大片的土地為什麼招標是完全合法的那也是希望他得標的廠商要合法合規去做合法的所以這個程序是沒有問題合法的高達51公頃我剛剛講過他是四級坡度百分之三十到四十所以他造成的後果就是"},{"start":166.593,"end":182.428,"text":"他必須砍平山頭 他才有可能重點報告委員 他整個基地的面積是51公頃但是當時並不是全部核准他我再問你 你們當時要他可以 他可以申請的這個裝置容量是多少署長你說是 我就看你們要說謊到什麼時候"},{"start":189.763,"end":196.247,"text":"你的裝置容量高達多少 它是51公頃喔你的裝置容量是不是70MW如果70MW是不是要開發高達超過40公頃以上的土地不是這樣子 我們核准它的面積是21公頃所以它超過 它現在超過了它有兩個 一個是設置太陽光墊那為什麼會通過51公頃的山坡地開發整個土地面積"},{"start":217.117,"end":220.038,"text":"那他現在超出多少他現在開發的範圍已經超出我們核准的範圍他超出幾公頃你告訴大家他現在開發幾公頃他現在開發幾公頃他整地的範圍已經超過21公頃了這個可能要問高雄市政府你到現在還沒有掌握媒體講的好像只超出2公頃吧"},{"start":243.946,"end":255.764,"text":"我們會跟高雄市政府因為他現在兩個部分你們會跟高雄市政府我今天要告訴大家的就是這件事情的始作俑者叫做經濟部經濟部要求自來水公司標租土地然後2022年12月21號"},{"start":261.171,"end":275.94,"text":"內政部他去許可開發他是有經過合法程序的2022年12月21號公文都在這邊內政部行文給高雄市政府高雄市政府也很配合12月21號發文12月29號高雄市政府就公告了"},{"start":280.462,"end":282.264,"text":"為什麼當時你們在審理這個程序的過程當中沒有人去質疑它這個四級的坡地佔的比例高達53%它是真的適合嗎你們這個過程當中有好好審理嗎"},{"start":295.859,"end":323.353,"text":"他這個程序是沒有問題的他這個山坡地開發所以他要做水土保值他也送了水土保值計畫那今天這個案的問題是他沒有依照他的計畫來執行所以才會有開發高雄市政府給他開發過七次那我們也開發過一次一把一百五十萬要他恢復原狀那因為他都沒有改善那所以高雄市政府取消他的這個開發許可那我們也取消他籌設許可是因為這樣子嗎"},{"start":325.114,"end":327.396,"text":"是,是因為這樣子嗎?如果今天不是國民黨的議員跟立委帶隊去考察媒體報的這麼大請問這整個案子會這樣子終止嗎?高雄市政府會發生嗎?經濟部會發生嗎?"},{"start":341.787,"end":350.03,"text":"自己回過去看上下游市集他們之前那個報導在五月份的時候高雄市政府還在說這個我們還要評估看看喔就是沒有覺得這個業者有什麼不對的地方你們是有開罰但是不覺得應該要終止為什麼現在終止了高雄市政府是有很認真在處理他開罰了七次你們也沒有要終止啊"},{"start":366.457,"end":384.103,"text":"你們只是開罰不痛不癢啊你們罰得到目前的金額對照未來這個巨大的獲利根本就是不痛不癢所以是什麼原因你們才會立刻終止因為民意的反彈嘛輿論的壓力嘛你們現在才出手去廢止嘛我今天要點出來的問題就是當時為什麼這麼大規模51公頃的開範你會覺得可以呢然後也都不用徵詢整個環境部的意見"},{"start":394.367,"end":402.734,"text":"環境部次長你們從頭到尾這個開發案你們有被邀請過去表示一下意見嗎這麼大恭喜因為這個是早期的開發案現在的環境有規定多早期 這個才是2022年2022年12月29日剛好市政府才公告三年前是有多早期"},{"start":410.58,"end":432.773,"text":"當時不是因為土地面積 那我們現在已經修正 環保署這邊已經修正所以你過去就是一個錯誤嘛政策的錯誤引領而造成這樣的後果嘛 而這樣的代價是高雄市民要去承擔的你根本回復不了 另外一個案子我要繼續問台塘嘉義東石案場 這個規模更大了毀林重建要高達77公頃"},{"start":435.374,"end":460.083,"text":"如果按照你們現在的環評標準的話只要位於政府核定補助或獎勵實施的造林之土地基因能源主管機關同意者不在此限所以嘉義東石的鄉親已經起來抗議要毀林重建高達77公頃對當地的破壞非常的大但是這個案子我就問要不要環評"},{"start":461.363,"end":483.767,"text":"新的辦法已經通過了這個正在進行中的這個案子要不要終止要不要比照高雄的案子停下來這個我們會來評估因為這個案子我們還沒有核准它那剛才這個法令上的規定主要是我們過去這個規定的造林地其實它是有行政院核定它是經濟林那本來就是一定時間之後經濟造林一定時間就要經過砍伐之後再重新種植"},{"start":487.088,"end":516.286,"text":"但是我們會來評估齁如果這個林鄉已經很好形成生態的話那我們就不會讓他去我坦白講經濟部的評估我們都不相信我要求環境部次長表態來 次長像這個這麼大規模的高達77公頃你現行的環評裡面你為什麼給這一個經濟部能源主管機關一個上方保險就是只要是他們的造林的土地國有土地 公有土地 國營事業土地或公營事業土地"},{"start":517.026,"end":537.217,"text":"能源主管機關只要同意就不再實現就沒有你的角色就把你們踢開了這個合理嗎這是一個非常大的漏洞啊如果按照這個標準坦白講剛剛高雄的那個案例他就是自來水公司的土地一樣也沒有你環境部的角色啊都是經濟部說了算這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":538.217,"end":547.146,"text":"你環境部現在升格之後你的角色應該要展現出來吧你覺得這一條是不是應該要再修為什麼要給能源主管機關這麼大的權限"},{"start":548.903,"end":568.812,"text":"跟委員報告當時有特別提到因為是整個國家的政策在推動綠能那經濟部也會嚴格把關沒有嚴格把關我們是相信他要不可以用相信現在就是前面高雄的案例已經看出來了由他一手主導的就是造成破壞環境的元兇你們都沒有角色"},{"start":569.352,"end":572.814,"text":"這個部分我要求這個環境部回去要重修你的這個整個那個環評的這個標準要不然就是一個大漏洞你什麼都交給經濟部經濟部是以沖他的這個綠色光電為他第一目標他根本不顧環境正義的他就是努力往前沖所以你可以看到高雄的這個光電廠這麼的離譜就是因為他主導的嘛"},{"start":593.743,"end":611.278,"text":"那個源頭就是經濟部嘛而這當中都看不到環境部的角色嘛部會之間是要發揮彼此各自角色然後共同去監督結果我們沒有看到環境部的角色啊所以這個我要求第二個我的要求是現行到底還有多少案場"},{"start":612.731,"end":627.061,"text":"其實是有問題的經濟部自己主導免環評但是他可能還是存在一些環境評估影響的問題署長你能回答嗎你現在自己去盤點你手上多少案例我剛已經講了一個公使的這個大規模要毀零重電的77公頃這是一例喔還有多少案例他現在是大規模的開發"},{"start":637.665,"end":658.981,"text":"委員如果需要我們可以來做盤點因為我們現在大概我要求你們盤點光電案你要多久可以盤點出來我們大概一個月的時間我們盤點出來一個月要盤點出來我們大概會因為我們現在核准的案件它有九萬多件所以大部分是屋頂型的那我們會盤大型的地面型"},{"start":659.781,"end":667.966,"text":"這種毀零重電的好不好毀零重電無論是造零或者是山坡地的用大規模開發一定要列出來然後我要求環境部"},{"start":669.502,"end":694.707,"text":"經濟部盤點出來之後你們要召開會議你們要評估這當中有沒有涉及到跟高雄的這個光電廠案很像的不會 跟委員報告在那個人工造林地我們一定是在那個林相不佳的地方才會做那雖然它是人工造林是經濟林但是我們現在的政策是如果它已經形成一個生態了那我們就不會去砍伐它了一定是在林相不佳的地方所以我們會跟農委會來"},{"start":696.63,"end":699.222,"text":"檢討什麼叫做臨向不佳的地方我們才會來利用"},{"start":699.775,"end":703.358,"text":"好 我們現在發展綠能 這個發展綠能是一件好事但是做過頭了 衝過頭了 不顧環境爭議就是一件壞事我們已經看到這個陸續的情況都出來了 包括漁電共生最近的這個議題 大家也看到這個只種電不養魚 其實也造成一個很大的問題所以這個部分 我要求環境部 你們的角色要出來最後再提醒環境部一點"},{"start":727.014,"end":731.24,"text":"剛剛提到這個中火的部分這個次長我希望你在表達上面你要以一個環境部次長的高度來回答問題你有沒有看過北高行他真正他的這個意見他說空污防治是環境保護重要項目"},{"start":744.577,"end":760.609,"text":"因為各地方地理環境自然條件社會發展狀況產業結構等都不同因此環境保護事項有因地制宜的必要空污防治為地方是台中市地方自治範疇台中環保局採儲中火"},{"start":766.032,"end":779.578,"text":"罰還並廢止許可證屬於地方自治事項所以他要釐清的就是這個是台中市政府環保局的地方自治事項那我覺得這個環境部就是自己跳進來"},{"start":780.899,"end":800.71,"text":"跳進來公清便是主而且呢還要繼續上訴我真的覺得你們這件事到此為止吧你們這樣的一個干預地方政府他去行他的空污防治的作業你們這樣子根本就違反了環境部你們基本的職責跟所在所以這個部分我認為這個環境部你們是失職"},{"start":803.592,"end":821.169,"text":"你們應該去支持台中市環保局就是對於任何的空汙可以嚴格的去查緝而不是出來阻擋他們要去這個採訪這個過度燃煤的這樣的一個情況你們還要出來阻止我覺得這個環境部是做錯了好 以上謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":373,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時1分）謝謝主席，請次長及能源署代理署長。"],["主席：請次長、李代理署長。"],["沈次長志修：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：次長，今天環境部及能源署都有來，我要關心高雄大樹和山光電案場的情況，這個案場是超高強度開發，高達51公頃，而且這樣的山坡地其實有超過一半是四級坡，也就是它的坡度是30%到40%，所以它必須鏟平山頭、填平窪地，讓整個山谷可以放置太陽能板，這樣的毀林種電還可以稱為是綠電嗎？童子賢是總統府的國家氣候變遷對策委員會副召集人，他說這種破壞植被、森林的方式產生能源，不應稱為綠能，因為這是「綠色不利」，我請教次長跟署長，你們同意這句話嗎？次長，作為環境部次長，你同意嗎？"],["沈次長志修：當然要依法，當然要依法，這個違法的話，就不是我們所……"],["王委員育敏：他是破壞環境！"],["沈次長志修：是，的確是這樣子。"],["王委員育敏：署長，你同意嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：是的，這是一個違法的案件，所以我們撤銷他的籌設許可，高雄市政府也取消他的開發。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個案子不在於它是一個違法的案件，接下來，我要讓大家看到這個始作俑者是誰。這一件事情是始於2020年9月，當時為了達到行政院院長蘇貞昌的6.5GW光電目標，經濟部所屬的自來水公司就去招標土地，所以現在大家看到的這一大片51公頃地是誰的？署長，你說，這塊地是誰的？"],["李代理署長君禮：自來水公司。"],["王委員育敏：自來水公司去招標的，所以是政府的經濟部所屬的自來水公司主動去招標土地，為什麼招標這麼大片的土地？為什麼？"],["李代理署長君禮：招標是完全合法的，也是希望得標的廠商要合法合規去做，所以……"],["王委員育敏：合法的？"],["李代理署長君禮：這個程序是沒有問題，但他後來違法了，所以才有處分。"],["王委員育敏：合法的？面積高達51公頃，我剛剛講過了，那裡的四級坡（坡度30%到40%）超過一半，所以造成的後果就是他必須砍平山頭才有可能種電。"],["李代理署長君禮：報告委員，整個基地的面積是51公頃，但是當時並不是全部核准種電，所以他才有今天違規的這個事實。"],["王委員育敏：我再問你，當時他可以申請的裝置容量是多少？署長，你說。"],["李代理署長君禮：是，我們……"],["王委員育敏：我就看你們要說謊到什麼時候！"],["李代理署長君禮：不是，我們這個有資料，是25……"],["王委員育敏：你的裝置容量高達多少？他的是51公頃喔！"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["王委員育敏：你的裝置容量是不是70MW？"],["李代理署長君禮：沒有，那是……"],["王委員育敏：如果70MW，是不是要開發高達超過40公頃以上的土地？"],["李代理署長君禮：不是這樣子，我們核准鋪設的面積是21公頃，他現在超過了，他有兩個，一個是……"],["王委員育敏：你總共只核准21公頃？"],["李代理署長君禮：設置太陽光電，對。"],["王委員育敏：那為什麼會通過51公頃的山坡地開發？"],["李代理署長君禮：整個土地面積是51公頃，但當時沒有核准他全部……"],["王委員育敏：那他現在超出多少？"],["李代理署長君禮：他現在開發的範圍已經超出我們核准的範圍，所以我們做兩個……"],["王委員育敏：他超出幾公頃？請告訴大家。"],["李代理署長君禮：因為他現在還沒有，他現在違反的其實是……"],["王委員育敏：他現在開發幾公頃？"],["李代理署長君禮：他整地的範圍已經超過21公頃了，所以……"],["王委員育敏：多少？"],["李代理署長君禮：這個可能要問高雄市政府，因為他現在是在整地，還沒有設置。"],["王委員育敏：你到現在還沒有掌握？媒體講的好像只超出2公頃，是不是？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們會跟高雄市政府……因為現在有兩個部分，他還沒有設置……"],["王委員育敏：你們會跟高雄市政府……"],["李代理署長君禮：合作。"],["王委員育敏：我今天要告訴大家的就是，這件事情的始作俑者叫做經濟部，經濟部要求自來水公司標租土地……"],["李代理署長君禮：報告委員，不是，我們是要他……"],["王委員育敏：2022年12月21號內政部許可開發，所以他是有經過合法程序的，2022年12月21號的公文都在這邊，內政部行文給高雄市政府，高雄市政府也很配合，12月21號發文，12月29號高雄市政府就公告了。為什麼當時你們在審理程序的過程當中，沒有人去質疑這個四級坡占比高達53%的土地真的適合嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：報告委員……"],["王委員育敏：你們在這個過程當中好好審理嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：這個程序是沒有問題的，這是山坡地開發，所以他要做水土保持，他也送了水土保持計畫，今天這個案的問題是他沒有依照他的計畫來執行，所以才會開罰，高雄市政府開罰過7次，我們也開罰過1次，罰150萬，要他恢復原狀，因為他都沒有改善，所以高雄市政府取消他的開發許可，我們也取消他的籌設許可……"],["王委員育敏：是因為這樣子嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：是，政府的核准程序是沒有問題的，是因為他違法。"],["王委員育敏：是因為這樣嗎？如果今天不是國民黨的議員跟立委帶隊去考察，媒體報的這麼大，請問這整個案子會這樣子終止嗎？高雄市政府會發聲嗎？經濟部會發聲嗎？自己回去看「上下游新聞市集」之前的報導，在5月份的時候，高雄市政府還說這個還要評估看看，就是沒有覺得這個業者有什麼不對的地方，你們是有開罰，但是不覺得應該要終止，為什麼現在終止了？"],["李代理署長君禮：報告委員，高雄市政府是有很認真在處理，它開罰了7次，因為業者一直沒有改善……"],["王委員育敏：你們也沒有要終止啊！你們只是開罰，不痛不癢，你們罰到目前的金額對照未來巨大的獲利根本就是不痛不癢，所以是什麼原因你們才會立刻終止？因為民意的反彈，輿論的壓力，你們現在才出手去廢止嘛！我今天要點出來的問題就是，當時為什麼會覺得這麼大規模51公頃的開發案可以呢？然後也都不用徵詢環境部的意見。環境部次長，從頭到尾，針對這個開發案，你們有被邀請過去表示一下意見嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：報告委員，因為這個是早期的開發案，現在的環評有規定……"],["王委員育敏：多早期？這個是2022年12月29號高雄市政府才公告的，三年前是有多早期？"],["李代理署長君禮：當時不是因為土地面積，現在環保署已經修正，開發超過15公頃就要做……"],["王委員育敏：所以過去就是一個錯誤！政策的錯誤引領而造成這樣的後果，而這樣的代價是高雄市民要去承擔的，你根本回復不了！","另外一個案子，我要繼續問的是，台糖嘉義東石案場的規模更大，毀林種電高達77公頃，如果按照你們現在的環評標準，只要位於政府核定補助或獎勵實施造林之土地，經能源主管機關同意者，不在此限，所以嘉義東石的鄉親已經起來抗議，這個案場要毀林種電高達77公頃，對當地的破壞非常的大，我就問你，這個案子要不要環評？新的辦法已經通過了，這個正在進行中的案子要不要終止？要不要比照高雄的案子停下來？"],["李代理署長君禮：這個我們會來評估，因為這個案子我們還沒有核准。剛才委員提到的這個法令上的規定，主要是過去規定的造林地是行政院核定的經濟林，本來經濟造林就是一定時間之後要砍伐再重新種植，但是我們會來評估，如果林相已經很好、形成生態的話，那我們就不會讓他去做了。"],["王委員育敏：我坦白講，經濟部的評估我們都不相信，我要求環境部次長表態。","次長，像這個這麼大規模的、高達77公頃，在現行的環評裡面，你為什麼給經濟部能源主管機關一個尚方寶劍？就是只要是他們的造林土地，屬於國有土地、公有土地、國營事業土地或公營事業土地，能源主管機關只要同意就不在此限，就沒有你的角色，就把你們踢開了，這個合理嗎？這是一個非常大的漏洞啊！如果按照這個標準，坦白講，剛剛高雄的那個案例就是自來水公司的土地，一樣也沒有環境部的角色，都是經濟部說了算，這樣子合理嗎？環境部現在升格之後，你的角色應該要展現出來吧？你覺得這一條是不是應該要再修，為什麼要給予能源主管機關這麼大的權限？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，當時有特別提到因為整個國家的政策在推動綠能，經濟部也會嚴格的把關……"],["王委員育敏：沒有嚴格把關。"],["沈次長志修：我們是相信他要……"],["王委員育敏：不可以用相信，現在就是前面高雄的案例已經看出來了，由他一手主導的就是造成破壞環境的元兇，你們都沒有角色。這個部分我要求，環境部回去要重修整個環評的標準，要不然就是一個大漏洞。你什麼都交給經濟部，但經濟部是以衝綠色光電為第一目標，根本不顧環境正義，他就是努力往前衝，所以你可以看到高雄的光電廠這麼的離譜，就是因為他主導的嘛！那個源頭就是經濟部嘛！而這當中都看不到環境部的角色。部會之間是要發揮彼此各自的角色，然後共同去監督，結果我們沒有看到環境部的角色，所以這個我要求。","第二個我的要求是，現行到底還有多少案場其實是有問題的，經濟部自己主導免環評，但是他可能還是存在一些環境影響評估的問題。署長，你能回答嗎？你現在自己去盤點你手上有多少案例，我剛剛已經講了一個，東石大規模要毀林種電的77公頃，這是一例，現在還有多少案例也是大規模的開發？"],["李代理署長君禮：委員如果需要，我們可以來盤點，因為現在整個光電案，連屋頂型加起來……"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求你們盤點，要多久可以盤點出來送給委員會？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們大概一個月的時間盤點出來，那……"],["王委員育敏：好，一個月要盤點出來。"],["李代理署長君禮：因為我們現在核准的案件大概有九萬多件，但大部分是屋頂型的，那我們會盤大型的地面型……"],["王委員育敏：這種毀林種電的，好不好？毀林種電，無論是造林或者是山坡地的，這種大規模開發一定要列出來"],["李代理署長君禮：好，就是在這個……"],["王委員育敏：然後我要求經濟部盤點出來之後，環境部要召開會議，你們要評估這當中有沒有涉及到跟高雄這個光電場案很像的。"],["李代理署長君禮：不會，跟委員報告，在人工造林地，我們一定是在林相不佳的地方才會做。雖然人工造林是經濟林，但是我們現在的政策是，如果已經形成一個生態了，那我們就不會去砍伐了，一定是在林相不佳的地方，所以我們會跟農委會來檢討什麼叫做林相不佳的地方，才會來利用。"],["王委員育敏：好。我們現在在發展綠能，發展綠能是一件好事，但是做過頭了、衝過頭了、不顧環境正義就是一件壞事。我們已經看到陸續的情況都出來了，包括漁電共生，最近大家也看到這個議題，只種電不養魚其實也造成一個很大的問題，所以我要求環境部，這個部分你們的角色要出來。","最後我再提醒環境部一點，剛剛提到中火的部分，次長，我希望你在表達上面要以一個環境部次長的高度來回答問題。你有沒有看過北高行真正的意見？他說空污防治是環境保護的重要項目，因為各地方地理環境、自然條件、社會發展狀況、產業結構等都不同，因此環境保護事項有因地制宜的必要，空污防治為臺中市地方自治範疇，臺中環保局裁處中火罰鍰並廢止許可證屬於地方自治事項，所以他要釐清的就是，這是臺中市政府環保局的地方自治事項，我覺得環境部就是自己跳進來，跳進來公親變事主，而且還要繼續上訴，我真的覺得這件事，你們到此為止吧！你們這樣干預地方政府執行空污防治作業，你們這樣子根本就違反了環境部基本的職責所在。針對這個部分，我認為環境部失職，你們應該去支持臺中市環保局，對於任何的空污可以嚴格查緝，而不是出來阻擋他們要裁罰過度燃煤，這樣的情況你們還要出來阻止，我覺得環境部是做錯了。好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請涂權吉委員詢答。涂委員詢答完，我們就先休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":178,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","麥玉珍","陳瑩","楊曜","廖偉翔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、交通部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部就「因應歐盟管制超細懸浮微粒\n（PM0.1），我國空污管制政策如何精進、提升，保障國人健康安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146302_00002"}}}