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{\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 675.848, \"end\": 676.048, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 676.048, \"end\": 676.228, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 676.228, \"end\": 676.568, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 676.568, \"end\": 676.949, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 676.949, \"end\": 677.109, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 677.109, \"end\": 677.229, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 677.229, \"end\": 677.409, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 677.409, \"end\": 677.429, \"score\": 0.354}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 678.766, \"end\": 697.004, \"text\": \"我應該沒寫錯嘛你知道現在11月可以完成嗎這個部分可以完成可以確定可以來來來來來交通部電源改善工程採購履約期間要到2026年10月27號所以是這個公告有問題嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 678.766, \"end\": 679.407, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 679.407, \"end\": 679.947, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 679.947, \"end\": 680.828, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 680.828, \"end\": 680.948, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 680.948, \"end\": 681.048, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 681.048, \"end\": 681.429, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 681.429, \"end\": 681.909, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 681.909, \"end\": 682.109, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 682.109, \"end\": 682.209, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 682.209, \"end\": 682.27, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 682.27, \"end\": 682.47, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 682.47, \"end\": 684.552, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 684.552, \"end\": 684.672, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 690.197, \"end\": 690.398, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 690.398, \"end\": 690.818, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 690.818, \"end\": 690.998, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 690.998, \"end\": 691.239, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 691.239, \"end\": 691.499, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 691.499, \"end\": 693.921, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"履\", \"start\": 693.921, \"end\": 694.482, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 694.482, \"end\": 695.082, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 695.082, \"end\": 695.283, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 695.283, \"end\": 695.683, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 695.683, \"end\": 695.863, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 695.863, \"end\": 696.043, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 696.043, \"end\": 696.224, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 696.224, \"end\": 696.564, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 696.564, \"end\": 696.724, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 696.724, \"end\": 696.844, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 696.844, \"end\": 696.984, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 696.984, \"end\": 697.004, \"score\": 0.024}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 700.151, \"end\": 710.576, \"text\": \"我看到這個採購的公告履約的期間我嚇一跳交通部送給交通委員的報告是今年11月要完成啊這個履約期間是到2026年11月27號這怎麼回事這是什麼不對勁\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 700.151, \"end\": 700.331, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 700.331, \"end\": 700.551, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 707.975, \"end\": 708.215, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 708.215, \"end\": 708.495, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 708.495, \"end\": 708.995, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"履\", \"start\": 708.995, \"end\": 709.135, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 709.135, \"end\": 709.195, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 709.195, \"end\": 709.255, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 709.255, \"end\": 709.355, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 709.355, \"end\": 709.535, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 709.535, \"end\": 709.795, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 709.795, \"end\": 710.016, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 710.016, \"end\": 710.136, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 710.136, \"end\": 710.236, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 710.236, \"end\": 710.376, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 710.376, \"end\": 710.556, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 710.556, \"end\": 710.576, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"勁\"}]}, {\"start\": 717.031, \"end\": 741.521, \"text\": \"差一檔餒委員來請總經理來跟您報告好嗎可以報告委員 那委員關切的事項主要是因為我們老舊電源要改善是 我了解CMT案跟另外額外還有發包兩個案在進行是 所以呢 到底什麼時候要完成11月是我們CMT原來就已經在進行的部分會完成那我們新發包的要到明年的對嘛這個時間你們送給國會的報告齁\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 717.031, \"end\": 717.631, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 717.631, \"end\": 718.171, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"檔\"}, {\"word\": \"餒\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 718.171, \"end\": 719.412, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, 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{\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1015.648, \"end\": 1015.848, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"班\", \"start\": 1015.848, \"end\": 1015.989, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1015.989, \"end\": 1016.089, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1016.089, \"end\": 1016.209, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 1016.209, \"end\": 1016.469, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1016.469, \"end\": 1016.629, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 1016.629, \"end\": 1016.929, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1016.929, \"end\": 1017.029, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1017.029, \"end\": 1017.71, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1017.71, \"end\": 1017.83, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1017.83, \"end\": 1018.47, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1018.47, \"end\": 1018.751, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1018.751, \"end\": 1019.031, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 1019.031, \"end\": 1019.231, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1019.231, \"end\": 1019.371, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1019.371, \"end\": 1019.431, \"score\": 0.653}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1019.431, \"end\": 1019.651, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 1019.651, \"end\": 1019.931, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1019.931, \"end\": 1020.372, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 1020.372, \"end\": 1020.532, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1020.532, \"end\": 1020.792, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 1020.792, \"end\": 1020.952, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1020.952, \"end\": 1021.312, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1021.312, \"end\": 1021.452, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 1021.452, \"end\": 1021.773, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1021.773, \"end\": 1022.273, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 1022.273, \"end\": 1022.533, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1022.533, \"end\": 1022.653, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1022.653, \"end\": 1023.114, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1023.114, \"end\": 1023.314, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"班\", \"start\": 1023.314, \"end\": 1023.474, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1023.474, \"end\": 1023.554, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1023.554, \"end\": 1023.974, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 1023.974, \"end\": 1024.274, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1024.274, \"end\": 1024.415, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 1024.415, \"end\": 1024.575, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1024.575, \"end\": 1024.975, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1024.975, \"end\": 1024.995, \"score\": 0.001}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,986 --> 00:00:29,880\n謝謝主席有請部長台鐵政董事長高鐵石澤董事長政董事長高鐵石董事長三位好時間的關係不一一問候首先請教石澤董事長今天所提出來的書面報告特別點出來了\n\n2\n00:00:31,155 --> 00:00:35,118\n2024年相較到2023年的營收從531.9億然後從2023年的498.1億成長到2024年的531.9億成長幅度約74%上升6.8%啦那請教一下石油董事長2023年跟2024年就營業費用的部分成長了幾%\n\n3\n00:00:59,329 --> 00:01:19,761\n也成長了差不多這個超過這個數字大概營業費用的成本大概墊高了50億左右但是這個當中其實是因為我們有一個跟交通部之間的平台不好意思我問問題很具體的那個成本跟費用是兩回事你知道吧你有沒有看過財報這個是基本的財塊吧剛剛我講的是營業費用\n\n4\n00:01:26,123 --> 00:01:36,206\n營業費用成長了幾%你知不知道營業費用大概成長了大概在5%之內錯營業費用2023年166億2024年186億成長12%營收6.8%營業費用成長了12%理由是什麼我想我們相關的攤提跟人事費用都有在增加\n\n5\n00:01:54,625 --> 00:02:18,713\n我這樣具體的講啊外界對你上任事實上你有沒有交通專業有人幫你緩假你有沒有經營專業啊現在考驗正在開始對自己的業務要守對自己的業務要守當然是2024年跟2023年啊最後稅前的經歷相差多少\n\n6\n00:02:20,522 --> 00:02:33,175\n到2024年大概稅前淨利已經降到70億下大概68億左右有稍微減少的十幾億稅前淨利稅前的話當然我剛講的是稅後那稅前的話大概是這個這個是從78億降到64.5億稅前淨利\n\n7\n00:02:39,611 --> 00:02:43,455\n稅前淨利2023年97億對這是稅前我剛剛講2024年80億為什麼2024年營收增加稅前淨利反而降低我剛剛特別講了就是說關於營業的成本以及這個相關攤體的費用\n\n8\n00:02:56,786 --> 00:03:11,341\n就最後啦業務內的收入事實上是增加的問題出在業務外的收入跟支出你可能回去再把高鐵的財務狀況好好看清楚今天只是測試ABC啦\n\n9\n00:03:12,335 --> 00:03:28,160\n我必須要說今天的測試顯然你對於高鐵的業務要掌握還有很長一段路要走我今天所講的數字所有的公民都可以上高鐵的財報去check看我講的對不對好來請台鐵董事長\n\n10\n00:03:32,202 --> 00:03:57,795\n委員好董事長好辛苦喔從高鐵董事長變台鐵董事長責任更重做大事不是做大官你這樣的精神我非常佩服今天我代讀你的報告上面寫說你要貫徹當責文化我看了這四個字我非常非常的欣賞為什麼我說企業文化本來就要成敗有責嘛\n\n11\n00:03:59,055 --> 00:04:19,994\n誰搞的爛攤子誰負責嘛做的好的就要獎勵嘛董事長贊不贊成就是這樣就是這樣嘛好來我帶董事長看你接下來收拾哪些爛攤子台鐵三千型至強號新的車子啊不曉得哪裡去設計這個爛椅子啊都新的椅子喔\n\n12\n00:04:23,322 --> 00:04:39,136\n站在旁邊的陳士凱部長也承認這個椅子爛到爆確實要改進改進這個椅子花一億八千四百五十萬來董事長請教依照你當責文化的精神這件事情誰要負責\n\n13\n00:04:40,663 --> 00:05:04,664\n我想這個我們當然這個我們看當時我們發包的這個情況那看到廠商交給我們的那是不是按照我們當時廠商交給我們的就是按照我們當初設計的是所以那個問題來了這個爛椅子當初是誰訂的按照您所講的當者文化的精神這件事要不要究責\n\n14\n00:05:06,158 --> 00:05:34,369\n我們再繼續來瞭解一下需要多久你剛上任我給你多一點的時間兩個月之內去瞭解發生了什麼事誰應該負責任一億八千四百五十萬誰要負責可以嗎兩個月夠不夠好謝謝董事今天第一次第一次我都是很溫暖的我幫你把問題都整理出來讓董事長可以回去掌握狀況第二件事情\n\n15\n00:05:35,816 --> 00:05:43,833\n當哲文化為什麼重要台鐵過去所出現的狀況就是有不肖的商人跟政客結合\n\n16\n00:05:45,752 --> 00:06:05,767\n政客帶著不肖的廠商跑去台鐵沒有專業做業務指導說要做這個要做那個結果呢結果台鐵要搞一個列控4.0列控4.0花了納稅人六千萬一事無成一敗塗地\n\n17\n00:06:07,088 --> 00:06:35,299\n一次五成一敗塗地啊我直接問運安會啊這個列控4.0到底能用不能用啊運安會主委在交通委員會很誠實的打槍啊這根本不能用啊根本不能用那問題來啦當初大官帶著不銷廠商去台鐵直接強加在台鐵身上搞這個列控4.0來董事長你認為還要再繼續搞下去嗎\n\n18\n00:06:36,277 --> 00:06:59,783\n跟委員報告這個事情我們會持續在我們公司內部的安全委員會檢討需要多久兩個月好不好兩個月可以好可以一樣這件事情我給你兩個月錯了就認錯不要為了掩飾過去的錯誤還要再砸更多的錢頭一個不孝廠商造成台灣多少傷害\n\n19\n00:07:00,823 --> 00:07:29,893\n不是只有台鐵是受害人啊那台南搞那個自駕系統爛到爆一樣不能用丟了好幾千萬下去你石頭丟到水裡還有一身啊那個是幾千萬砸下去什麼都沒有同一個劣質廠商連我們淘機都得標現在搞到都解約啦部長站在旁邊啦應該很清楚我在說什麼講了好幾次啦台鐵當著文化\n\n20\n00:07:31,977 --> 00:07:47,718\n成敗要有責第三個矽科站矽科站很長矽科站中站出口工程之前發包我把整個歷程調出來這個可能是部長要回答的問題\n\n21\n00:07:50,123 --> 00:08:11,469\n結果本來預定2025年5月要竣工現在是2025年的6月原定2025年5月要竣工現在2025年6月部長知不知道工程進度多少工程進度非常緩慢因為當時的廠商他做不了所以解約那解約該罰款我們也有罰款非常好這個就是我要提醒的事情\n\n22\n00:08:12,449 --> 00:08:32,518\n本來矽科站很長嘛有去過矽子然後在矽子那邊矽科站上下的居民大家感受都很深嘛那好不容易有這個經費做這個事情本來現在要竣工了搞到現在進度只有百分之1.8不是18是1.8看了這個歷程我就覺得很奇怪\n\n23\n00:08:33,871 --> 00:08:48,760\n我們的鐵道局開工凍土典禮是2023年12月8號開工凍土典禮當然就是政商名流大家拍照結果搞到後來是什麼結果搞到後來是那個廠商說我自己能力不足\n\n24\n00:08:49,864 --> 00:09:15,960\n我能力不足我第一次看到一個廠商講話這麼直白我能力不足我沒有辦法做他能力不足沒有辦法做當初是怎麼給他得標的這個事情有回去了解嗎這個當初到底怎麼搞的太離譜了啊這個廠商自我坦白我能力不足我做不下去了當初怎麼給他得標的這個事情哲烈要不要追究部長這個我們會去了解需要多久\n\n25\n00:09:18,513 --> 00:09:30,348\n你不是新手啦所以給你一個月了解責任一個月沒有問題可以嗎可以啊沒有問題再來台鐵遮斷器這我質詢過非常多次從去年到現在\n\n26\n00:09:31,773 --> 00:09:50,878\n從花東到彰化影響到非常多人的交通安全故障的次數高到嚇死人200多次來我們來review一下從我去年開始關心這件事情到現在你知道從去年到現在多裝了幾套遮斷器嗎跟委員報告這個案子到目前我們到4月點已經完成安裝了300\n\n27\n00:10:03,577 --> 00:10:19,357\n406套是是是這個我知道這個數字那個董事長你看PPT那個你前面有螢幕我有可能整理的比你還完整你直接看我的PPT就好了上面的數字不會錯了解一下去年9月喔\n\n28\n00:10:20,626 --> 00:10:38,138\n到現在他已經遲延非常久了遲延非常久是累積的問題那我關心的是我從去年9月到現在裝了幾套多裝了14套從396套到406套然後目前為止裝設進度只有到29%下一個問題我有這個事情牽涉到行人的交通安全\n\n29\n00:10:48,959 --> 00:11:17,429\n我們國家花大錢砸了好幾億下去搞這個東西結果一樣我們的招標系統很奇怪專門都找到那種沒有能力的專業性不夠的劣質廠商交通部送來交通委員會的解凍報告部長你應該還記得你說解凍報告說這個遮斷器的電源改善系統什麼時候要完成改善是11月要完成嗎\n\n30\n00:11:18,766 --> 00:11:37,004\n我應該沒寫錯嘛你知道現在11月可以完成嗎這個部分可以完成可以確定可以來來來來來交通部電源改善工程採購履約期間要到2026年10月27號所以是這個公告有問題嗎\n\n31\n00:11:40,151 --> 00:11:50,576\n我看到這個採購的公告履約的期間我嚇一跳交通部送給交通委員的報告是今年11月要完成啊這個履約期間是到2026年11月27號這怎麼回事這是什麼不對勁\n\n32\n00:11:57,031 --> 00:12:21,521\n差一檔餒委員來請總經理來跟您報告好嗎可以報告委員那委員關切的事項主要是因為我們老舊電源要改善是我了解CMT案跟另外額外還有發包兩個案在進行是所以呢到底什麼時候要完成11月是我們CMT原來就已經在進行的部分會完成那我們新發包的要到明年的對嘛這個時間你們送給國會的報告齁\n\n33\n00:12:27,352 --> 00:12:55,386\n不要在那邊遮遮掩掩你隨便送給交通委員會一個唬爛的解凍報告告訴交通委員會的委員11月會完成時間會到歷史會檢驗嘛我光看你們這個公告今年11月就不會完成啊報告委員這是兩個案子啊是這上面寫的是第一個案子第一個案子我們在11月會完成這個沒有問題那第二個案子會比較後面對嘛但我現在的重點是什麼\n\n34\n00:12:56,448 --> 00:13:24,546\n我現在的重點是這個丟了好幾億下去的公司的工程早就該完成了嘛我們現在處於delay的狀態我為什麼會關心他什麼時候該完成鐵路停交道耶這牽涉到每一個行人的生命耶這不是開玩笑的事耶我為什麼會定這個事如果現在的系統是安全的那我們根本就不用花錢去搞這件事啊\n\n35\n00:13:25,308 --> 00:13:31,512\n就是不安全才花錢去搞嘛不安全花錢去搞錢砸下去了到目前為止呢到目前為止不斷的延宕你們都不會擔心喔還是我一個人在起顏悠天你們都不會擔心喔報告委員這個在改善當中在進行當中\n\n36\n00:13:50,356 --> 00:14:09,815\n最後一個問題這個案子我一直追我覺得莫名其妙這個廠商敢包這個標道的遮斷器他有能力做嗎怎麼會得標了以後在那邊怪東怪西我的產品有問題是因為電源什麼電源有問題\n\n37\n00:14:11,107 --> 00:14:34,716\n然後要我們國家再幫這個廠商出一大筆錢再去改善這個電源供應系統整件事情啊讓我覺得莫名其妙但是當我發現莫名其妙的時候我一定會開始追我開始追我就發現了說有關於新版遮斷器的動作電流\n\n38\n00:14:36,291 --> 00:14:56,568\n他說呢本來2020年9月核定的遮斷器規範當中裡面是有要求的但是呢後來經廠商反應後檢討在同年12月也就是2020年12月修訂進版的時候取消\n\n39\n00:14:57,822 --> 00:15:22,235\n電流限制取消電流限制是什麼就是讓這個廠商本來沒這個能力的沒有辦法來投變成有辦法來投這個是幫這個沒有能力的廠商量身打造再改標案規格嗎來請教部長是委員長部長他這個取消的過程是要不要請總經理他比較了解整個好可以來請總經理\n\n40\n00:15:23,735 --> 00:15:49,763\n包委員這個我們內部也有進行調查然後呢調查結果呢對我們現在目前是主要是在我們這段期在公約的過程中廠商有反映說這個電源限制的部分因應現在目前功能提升可以做取消不過在後面廠商提出來的一個產品它還是符合我們規範裡面的一個安培數的這個限制\n\n41\n00:15:50,123 --> 00:16:14,332\n那現在這個案子如果符合規範的話我們還要幫他砸錢幫廠商改善電流供應報委員主要是因為現在目前是我們的電源老舊它不穩定所以我們需要去做改善讓這個遮斷機運作能夠正常更穩定所以呢我們的電源老舊是現在才發現還是當初他投票就知道我們在過程中發現這樣的一個課題\n\n42\n00:16:17,013 --> 00:16:43,764\n我這樣子講好了啦剛剛你說你們這件事情有進行內部調查嗎有調查報告嗎我們也已經有初步的這個調查報告可以送來嗎可以啊今天下班以前把調查報告送來這件事情我一定追到底啊改標案規格讓他進來投得標了以後再抱怨電流系統有問題政府再幫他出錢改我們的政府很有錢啊\n\n43\n00:16:45,621 --> 00:17:04,995\n對這種無能不孝的廠商啊特別的溫柔啊反正花的又不是自己的錢全部花納稅的錢可以這樣搞喔今天下班以前把報告送來可以嗎可以幫委員我們先前也有把我們調查的資料有提供給委員參考沒有關係下班以前調查報告送來好好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2986\t29880\t謝謝主席 有請部長台鐵政董事長 高鐵石澤董事長政董事長 高鐵石董事長三位好 時間的關係不一一問候 首先請教石澤董事長今天所提出來的書面報告 特別點出來了\n31155\t35118\t2024年相較到2023年的營收從531.9億然後從2023年的498.1億成長到2024年的531.9億成長幅度約74%上升6.8%啦那請教一下石油董事長2023年跟2024年就營業費用的部分成長了幾%\n59329\t79761\t也成長了差不多這個超過這個數字大概營業費用的成本大概墊高了50億左右但是這個當中其實是因為我們有一個跟交通部之間的平台不好意思我問問題很具體的那個成本跟費用是兩回事你知道吧你有沒有看過財報這個是基本的財塊吧剛剛我講的是營業費用\n86123\t96206\t營業費用成長了幾%你知不知道營業費用大概成長了大概在5%之內錯營業費用2023年166億2024年186億成長12%營收6.8%營業費用成長了12%理由是什麼我想我們相關的攤提跟人事費用都有在增加\n114625\t138713\t我這樣具體的講啊外界對你上任事實上你有沒有交通專業有人幫你緩假你有沒有經營專業啊現在考驗正在開始對自己的業務要守對自己的業務要守當然是2024年跟2023年啊最後稅前的經歷相差多少\n140522\t153175\t到2024年大概稅前淨利已經降到70億下大概68億左右有稍微減少的十幾億稅前淨利稅前的話當然我剛講的是稅後那稅前的話大概是這個這個是從78億降到64.5億稅前淨利\n159611\t163455\t稅前淨利2023年97億對這是稅前我剛剛講2024年80億為什麼2024年營收增加稅前淨利反而降低我剛剛特別講了就是說關於營業的成本以及這個相關攤體的費用\n176786\t191341\t就最後啦業務內的收入事實上是增加的問題出在業務外的收入跟支出你可能回去再把高鐵的財務狀況好好看清楚今天只是測試ABC啦\n192335\t208160\t我必須要說今天的測試顯然你對於高鐵的業務要掌握還有很長一段路要走我今天所講的數字所有的公民都可以上高鐵的財報去check看我講的對不對好來請台鐵董事長\n212202\t237795\t委員好 董事長好 辛苦喔從高鐵董事長變台鐵董事長 責任更重做大事不是做大官 你這樣的精神我非常佩服今天我代讀你的報告 上面寫說你要貫徹當責文化我看了這四個字 我非常非常的欣賞為什麼我說 企業文化本來就要成敗有責嘛\n239055\t259994\t誰搞的爛攤子誰負責嘛做的好的就要獎勵嘛董事長 贊不贊成就是這樣就是這樣嘛 好來我帶董事長看你接下來收拾哪些爛攤子台鐵三千型至強號新的車子啊不曉得哪裡去設計這個爛椅子啊都新的椅子喔\n263322\t279136\t站在旁邊的陳士凱部長也承認這個椅子爛到爆確實要改進改進這個椅子花一億八千四百五十萬來董事長請教依照你當責文化的精神這件事情誰要負責\n280663\t304664\t我想這個我們當然這個我們看當時我們發包的這個情況那看到廠商交給我們的那是不是按照我們當時廠商交給我們的就是按照我們當初設計的是所以那個問題來了這個爛椅子當初是誰訂的按照您所講的當者文化的精神這件事要不要究責\n306158\t334369\t我們再繼續來瞭解一下需要多久你剛上任我給你多一點的時間兩個月之內去瞭解發生了什麼事誰應該負責任一億八千四百五十萬誰要負責可以嗎 兩個月夠不夠好 謝謝董事今天第一次第一次我都是很溫暖的我幫你把問題都整理出來讓董事長可以回去掌握狀況第二件事情\n335816\t343833\t當哲文化為什麼重要台鐵過去所出現的狀況就是有不肖的商人跟政客結合\n345752\t365767\t政客帶著不肖的廠商跑去台鐵沒有專業做業務指導說要做這個要做那個結果呢結果台鐵要搞一個列控4.0列控4.0花了納稅人六千萬一事無成一敗塗地\n367088\t395299\t一次五成一敗塗地啊我直接問運安會啊這個列控4.0到底能用不能用啊運安會主委在交通委員會很誠實的打槍啊這根本不能用啊根本不能用那問題來啦當初大官帶著不銷廠商去台鐵直接強加在台鐵身上搞這個列控4.0來 董事長你認為還要再繼續搞下去嗎\n396277\t419783\t跟委員報告這個事情我們會持續在我們公司內部的安全委員會檢討需要多久兩個月好不好兩個月可以好可以一樣這件事情我給你兩個月錯了就認錯不要為了掩飾過去的錯誤還要再砸更多的錢頭一個不孝廠商造成台灣多少傷害\n420823\t449893\t不是只有台鐵是受害人啊那台南搞那個自駕系統爛到爆一樣不能用丟了好幾千萬下去你石頭丟到水裡還有一身啊那個是幾千萬砸下去什麼都沒有同一個劣質廠商連我們淘機都得標現在搞到都解約啦部長站在旁邊啦應該很清楚我在說什麼講了好幾次啦台鐵當著文化\n451977\t467718\t成敗要有責第三個矽科站矽科站很長矽科站中站出口工程之前發包我把整個歷程調出來 這個可能是部長要回答的問題\n470123\t491469\t結果本來預定2025年5月要竣工現在是2025年的6月原定2025年5月要竣工現在2025年6月部長知不知道工程進度多少工程進度非常緩慢因為當時的廠商他做不了所以解約那解約該罰款我們也有罰款非常好這個就是我要提醒的事情\n492449\t512518\t本來矽科站很長嘛有去過矽子然後在矽子那邊矽科站上下的居民大家感受都很深嘛那好不容易有這個經費做這個事情本來現在要竣工了搞到現在進度只有百分之1.8不是18是1.8看了這個歷程我就覺得很奇怪\n513871\t528760\t我們的鐵道局開工凍土典禮是2023年12月8號開工凍土典禮當然就是政商名流大家拍照結果搞到後來是什麼結果搞到後來是那個廠商說我自己能力不足\n529864\t555960\t我能力不足我第一次看到一個廠商講話這麼直白我能力不足我沒有辦法做他能力不足沒有辦法做 當初是怎麼給他得標的這個事情有回去了解嗎這個當初到底怎麼搞的 太離譜了啊這個廠商自我坦白 我能力不足 我做不下去了當初怎麼給他得標的 這個事情哲烈要不要追究 部長這個我們會去了解需要多久\n558513\t570348\t你不是新手啦所以給你一個月了解責任一個月沒有問題可以嗎可以啊沒有問題再來台鐵遮斷器這我質詢過非常多次從去年到現在\n571773\t590878\t從花東到彰化影響到非常多人的交通安全故障的次數高到嚇死人200多次來我們來review一下從我去年開始關心這件事情到現在你知道從去年到現在多裝了幾套遮斷器嗎跟委員報告這個案子到目前我們到4月點已經完成安裝了300\n603577\t619357\t406套是是是這個我知道這個數字那個董事長你看PPT那個你前面有螢幕我有可能整理的比你還完整你直接看我的PPT就好了上面的數字不會錯了解一下去年9月喔\n620626\t638138\t到現在他已經遲延非常久了遲延非常久是累積的問題那我關心的是我從去年9月到現在裝了幾套多裝了14套從396套到406套然後目前為止裝設進度只有到29%下一個問題我有這個事情牽涉到行人的交通安全\n648959\t677429\t我們國家花大錢砸了好幾億下去搞這個東西結果一樣我們的招標系統很奇怪專門都找到那種沒有能力的專業性不夠的劣質廠商交通部送來交通委員會的解凍報告部長你應該還記得你說解凍報告說這個遮斷器的電源改善系統什麼時候要完成改善是11月要完成嗎\n678766\t697004\t我應該沒寫錯嘛你知道現在11月可以完成嗎這個部分可以完成可以確定可以來來來來來交通部電源改善工程採購履約期間要到2026年10月27號所以是這個公告有問題嗎\n700151\t710576\t我看到這個採購的公告履約的期間我嚇一跳交通部送給交通委員的報告是今年11月要完成啊這個履約期間是到2026年11月27號這怎麼回事這是什麼不對勁\n717031\t741521\t差一檔餒委員來請總經理來跟您報告好嗎可以報告委員 那委員關切的事項主要是因為我們老舊電源要改善是 我了解CMT案跟另外額外還有發包兩個案在進行是 所以呢 到底什麼時候要完成11月是我們CMT原來就已經在進行的部分會完成那我們新發包的要到明年的對嘛這個時間你們送給國會的報告齁\n747352\t775386\t不要在那邊遮遮掩掩你隨便送給交通委員會一個唬爛的解凍報告告訴交通委員會的委員11月會完成時間會到歷史會檢驗嘛我光看你們這個公告今年11月就不會完成啊報告委員這是兩個案子啊是這上面寫的是第一個案子第一個案子我們在11月會完成這個沒有問題那第二個案子會比較後面對嘛但我現在的重點是什麼\n776448\t804546\t我現在的重點是這個丟了好幾億下去的公司的工程早就該完成了嘛我們現在處於delay的狀態我為什麼會關心他什麼時候該完成鐵路停交道耶這牽涉到每一個行人的生命耶這不是開玩笑的事耶我為什麼會定這個事如果現在的系統是安全的那我們根本就不用花錢去搞這件事啊\n805308\t811512\t就是不安全才花錢去搞嘛不安全花錢去搞 錢砸下去了 到目前為止呢到目前為止不斷的延宕你們都不會擔心喔還是我一個人在起顏悠天你們都不會擔心喔報告委員 這個在改善當中在進行當中\n830356\t849815\t最後一個問題這個案子我一直追我覺得莫名其妙這個廠商敢包這個標道的遮斷器他有能力做嗎怎麼會得標了以後在那邊怪東怪西我的產品有問題是因為電源什麼電源有問題\n851107\t874716\t然後要我們國家再幫這個廠商出一大筆錢再去改善這個電源供應系統整件事情啊讓我覺得莫名其妙但是當我發現莫名其妙的時候我一定會開始追我開始追我就發現了說有關於新版遮斷器的動作電流\n876291\t896568\t他說呢本來2020年9月核定的遮斷器規範當中裡面是有要求的但是呢後來經廠商反應後檢討在同年12月也就是2020年12月修訂進版的時候取消\n897822\t922235\t電流限制取消電流限制是什麼就是讓這個廠商本來沒這個能力的沒有辦法來投變成有辦法來投這個是幫這個沒有能力的廠商量身打造再改標案規格嗎來請教部長是委員長部長他這個取消的過程是要不要請總經理他比較了解整個好可以來請總經理\n923735\t949763\t包委員 這個我們內部也有進行調查然後呢 調查結果呢對 我們現在目前是主要是在我們這段期在公約的過程中廠商有反映說這個電源限制的部分因應現在目前功能提升可以做取消不過在後面廠商提出來的一個產品它還是符合我們規範裡面的一個安培數的這個限制\n950123\t974332\t那現在這個案子如果符合規範的話我們還要幫他砸錢幫廠商改善電流供應報委員主要是因為現在目前是我們的電源老舊它不穩定所以我們需要去做改善讓這個遮斷機運作能夠正常更穩定所以呢我們的電源老舊是現在才發現還是當初他投票就知道我們在過程中發現這樣的一個課題\n977013\t1003764\t我這樣子講好了啦剛剛你說你們這件事情有進行內部調查嗎有調查報告嗎我們也已經有初步的這個調查報告可以送來嗎可以啊今天下班以前把調查報告送來這件事情我一定追到底啊改標案規格讓他進來投得標了以後再抱怨電流系統有問題政府再幫他出錢改我們的政府很有錢啊\n1005621\t1024995\t對這種無能不孝的廠商啊特別的溫柔啊反正花的又不是自己的錢全部花納稅的錢可以這樣搞喔今天下班以前把報告送來可以嗎可以幫委員我們先前也有把我們調查的資料有提供給委員參考沒有關係下班以前調查報告送來好好\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請部長台鐵政董事長 高鐵石澤董事長政董事長 高鐵石董事長三位好 時間的關係不一一問候 首先請教石澤董事長今天所提出來的書面報告 特別點出來了\n2024年相較到2023年的營收從531.9億然後從2023年的498.1億成長到2024年的531.9億成長幅度約74%上升6.8%啦那請教一下石油董事長2023年跟2024年就營業費用的部分成長了幾%\n也成長了差不多這個超過這個數字大概營業費用的成本大概墊高了50億左右但是這個當中其實是因為我們有一個跟交通部之間的平台不好意思我問問題很具體的那個成本跟費用是兩回事你知道吧你有沒有看過財報這個是基本的財塊吧剛剛我講的是營業費用\n營業費用成長了幾%你知不知道營業費用大概成長了大概在5%之內錯營業費用2023年166億2024年186億成長12%營收6.8%營業費用成長了12%理由是什麼我想我們相關的攤提跟人事費用都有在增加\n我這樣具體的講啊外界對你上任事實上你有沒有交通專業有人幫你緩假你有沒有經營專業啊現在考驗正在開始對自己的業務要守對自己的業務要守當然是2024年跟2023年啊最後稅前的經歷相差多少\n到2024年大概稅前淨利已經降到70億下大概68億左右有稍微減少的十幾億稅前淨利稅前的話當然我剛講的是稅後那稅前的話大概是這個這個是從78億降到64.5億稅前淨利\n稅前淨利2023年97億對這是稅前我剛剛講2024年80億為什麼2024年營收增加稅前淨利反而降低我剛剛特別講了就是說關於營業的成本以及這個相關攤體的費用\n就最後啦業務內的收入事實上是增加的問題出在業務外的收入跟支出你可能回去再把高鐵的財務狀況好好看清楚今天只是測試ABC啦\n我必須要說今天的測試顯然你對於高鐵的業務要掌握還有很長一段路要走我今天所講的數字所有的公民都可以上高鐵的財報去check看我講的對不對好來請台鐵董事長\n委員好 董事長好 辛苦喔從高鐵董事長變台鐵董事長 責任更重做大事不是做大官 你這樣的精神我非常佩服今天我代讀你的報告 上面寫說你要貫徹當責文化我看了這四個字 我非常非常的欣賞為什麼我說 企業文化本來就要成敗有責嘛\n誰搞的爛攤子誰負責嘛做的好的就要獎勵嘛董事長 贊不贊成就是這樣就是這樣嘛 好來我帶董事長看你接下來收拾哪些爛攤子台鐵三千型至強號新的車子啊不曉得哪裡去設計這個爛椅子啊都新的椅子喔\n站在旁邊的陳士凱部長也承認這個椅子爛到爆確實要改進改進這個椅子花一億八千四百五十萬來董事長請教依照你當責文化的精神這件事情誰要負責\n我想這個我們當然這個我們看當時我們發包的這個情況那看到廠商交給我們的那是不是按照我們當時廠商交給我們的就是按照我們當初設計的是所以那個問題來了這個爛椅子當初是誰訂的按照您所講的當者文化的精神這件事要不要究責\n我們再繼續來瞭解一下需要多久你剛上任我給你多一點的時間兩個月之內去瞭解發生了什麼事誰應該負責任一億八千四百五十萬誰要負責可以嗎 兩個月夠不夠好 謝謝董事今天第一次第一次我都是很溫暖的我幫你把問題都整理出來讓董事長可以回去掌握狀況第二件事情\n當哲文化為什麼重要台鐵過去所出現的狀況就是有不肖的商人跟政客結合\n政客帶著不肖的廠商跑去台鐵沒有專業做業務指導說要做這個要做那個結果呢結果台鐵要搞一個列控4.0列控4.0花了納稅人六千萬一事無成一敗塗地\n一次五成一敗塗地啊我直接問運安會啊這個列控4.0到底能用不能用啊運安會主委在交通委員會很誠實的打槍啊這根本不能用啊根本不能用那問題來啦當初大官帶著不銷廠商去台鐵直接強加在台鐵身上搞這個列控4.0來 董事長你認為還要再繼續搞下去嗎\n跟委員報告這個事情我們會持續在我們公司內部的安全委員會檢討需要多久兩個月好不好兩個月可以好可以一樣這件事情我給你兩個月錯了就認錯不要為了掩飾過去的錯誤還要再砸更多的錢頭一個不孝廠商造成台灣多少傷害\n不是只有台鐵是受害人啊那台南搞那個自駕系統爛到爆一樣不能用丟了好幾千萬下去你石頭丟到水裡還有一身啊那個是幾千萬砸下去什麼都沒有同一個劣質廠商連我們淘機都得標現在搞到都解約啦部長站在旁邊啦應該很清楚我在說什麼講了好幾次啦台鐵當著文化\n成敗要有責第三個矽科站矽科站很長矽科站中站出口工程之前發包我把整個歷程調出來 這個可能是部長要回答的問題\n結果本來預定2025年5月要竣工現在是2025年的6月原定2025年5月要竣工現在2025年6月部長知不知道工程進度多少工程進度非常緩慢因為當時的廠商他做不了所以解約那解約該罰款我們也有罰款非常好這個就是我要提醒的事情\n本來矽科站很長嘛有去過矽子然後在矽子那邊矽科站上下的居民大家感受都很深嘛那好不容易有這個經費做這個事情本來現在要竣工了搞到現在進度只有百分之1.8不是18是1.8看了這個歷程我就覺得很奇怪\n我們的鐵道局開工凍土典禮是2023年12月8號開工凍土典禮當然就是政商名流大家拍照結果搞到後來是什麼結果搞到後來是那個廠商說我自己能力不足\n我能力不足我第一次看到一個廠商講話這麼直白我能力不足我沒有辦法做他能力不足沒有辦法做 當初是怎麼給他得標的這個事情有回去了解嗎這個當初到底怎麼搞的 太離譜了啊這個廠商自我坦白 我能力不足 我做不下去了當初怎麼給他得標的 這個事情哲烈要不要追究 部長這個我們會去了解需要多久\n你不是新手啦所以給你一個月了解責任一個月沒有問題可以嗎可以啊沒有問題再來台鐵遮斷器這我質詢過非常多次從去年到現在\n從花東到彰化影響到非常多人的交通安全故障的次數高到嚇死人200多次來我們來review一下從我去年開始關心這件事情到現在你知道從去年到現在多裝了幾套遮斷器嗎跟委員報告這個案子到目前我們到4月點已經完成安裝了300\n406套是是是這個我知道這個數字那個董事長你看PPT那個你前面有螢幕我有可能整理的比你還完整你直接看我的PPT就好了上面的數字不會錯了解一下去年9月喔\n到現在他已經遲延非常久了遲延非常久是累積的問題那我關心的是我從去年9月到現在裝了幾套多裝了14套從396套到406套然後目前為止裝設進度只有到29%下一個問題我有這個事情牽涉到行人的交通安全\n我們國家花大錢砸了好幾億下去搞這個東西結果一樣我們的招標系統很奇怪專門都找到那種沒有能力的專業性不夠的劣質廠商交通部送來交通委員會的解凍報告部長你應該還記得你說解凍報告說這個遮斷器的電源改善系統什麼時候要完成改善是11月要完成嗎\n我應該沒寫錯嘛你知道現在11月可以完成嗎這個部分可以完成可以確定可以來來來來來交通部電源改善工程採購履約期間要到2026年10月27號所以是這個公告有問題嗎\n我看到這個採購的公告履約的期間我嚇一跳交通部送給交通委員的報告是今年11月要完成啊這個履約期間是到2026年11月27號這怎麼回事這是什麼不對勁\n差一檔餒委員來請總經理來跟您報告好嗎可以報告委員 那委員關切的事項主要是因為我們老舊電源要改善是 我了解CMT案跟另外額外還有發包兩個案在進行是 所以呢 到底什麼時候要完成11月是我們CMT原來就已經在進行的部分會完成那我們新發包的要到明年的對嘛這個時間你們送給國會的報告齁\n不要在那邊遮遮掩掩你隨便送給交通委員會一個唬爛的解凍報告告訴交通委員會的委員11月會完成時間會到歷史會檢驗嘛我光看你們這個公告今年11月就不會完成啊報告委員這是兩個案子啊是這上面寫的是第一個案子第一個案子我們在11月會完成這個沒有問題那第二個案子會比較後面對嘛但我現在的重點是什麼\n我現在的重點是這個丟了好幾億下去的公司的工程早就該完成了嘛我們現在處於delay的狀態我為什麼會關心他什麼時候該完成鐵路停交道耶這牽涉到每一個行人的生命耶這不是開玩笑的事耶我為什麼會定這個事如果現在的系統是安全的那我們根本就不用花錢去搞這件事啊\n就是不安全才花錢去搞嘛不安全花錢去搞 錢砸下去了 到目前為止呢到目前為止不斷的延宕你們都不會擔心喔還是我一個人在起顏悠天你們都不會擔心喔報告委員 這個在改善當中在進行當中\n最後一個問題這個案子我一直追我覺得莫名其妙這個廠商敢包這個標道的遮斷器他有能力做嗎怎麼會得標了以後在那邊怪東怪西我的產品有問題是因為電源什麼電源有問題\n然後要我們國家再幫這個廠商出一大筆錢再去改善這個電源供應系統整件事情啊讓我覺得莫名其妙但是當我發現莫名其妙的時候我一定會開始追我開始追我就發現了說有關於新版遮斷器的動作電流\n他說呢本來2020年9月核定的遮斷器規範當中裡面是有要求的但是呢後來經廠商反應後檢討在同年12月也就是2020年12月修訂進版的時候取消\n電流限制取消電流限制是什麼就是讓這個廠商本來沒這個能力的沒有辦法來投變成有辦法來投這個是幫這個沒有能力的廠商量身打造再改標案規格嗎來請教部長是委員長部長他這個取消的過程是要不要請總經理他比較了解整個好可以來請總經理\n包委員 這個我們內部也有進行調查然後呢 調查結果呢對 我們現在目前是主要是在我們這段期在公約的過程中廠商有反映說這個電源限制的部分因應現在目前功能提升可以做取消不過在後面廠商提出來的一個產品它還是符合我們規範裡面的一個安培數的這個限制\n那現在這個案子如果符合規範的話我們還要幫他砸錢幫廠商改善電流供應報委員主要是因為現在目前是我們的電源老舊它不穩定所以我們需要去做改善讓這個遮斷機運作能夠正常更穩定所以呢我們的電源老舊是現在才發現還是當初他投票就知道我們在過程中發現這樣的一個課題\n我這樣子講好了啦剛剛你說你們這件事情有進行內部調查嗎有調查報告嗎我們也已經有初步的這個調查報告可以送來嗎可以啊今天下班以前把調查報告送來這件事情我一定追到底啊改標案規格讓他進來投得標了以後再抱怨電流系統有問題政府再幫他出錢改我們的政府很有錢啊\n對這種無能不孝的廠商啊特別的溫柔啊反正花的又不是自己的錢全部花納稅的錢可以這樣搞喔今天下班以前把報告送來可以嗎可以幫委員我們先前也有把我們調查的資料有提供給委員參考沒有關係下班以前調查報告送來好好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.986 --> 00:29.880\n謝謝主席有請部長台鐵政董事長高鐵石澤董事長政董事長高鐵石董事長三位好時間的關係不一一問候首先請教石澤董事長今天所提出來的書面報告特別點出來了\n\n00:31.155 --> 00:35.118\n2024年相較到2023年的營收從531.9億然後從2023年的498.1億成長到2024年的531.9億成長幅度約74%上升6.8%啦那請教一下石油董事長2023年跟2024年就營業費用的部分成長了幾%\n\n00:59.329 --> 01:19.761\n也成長了差不多這個超過這個數字大概營業費用的成本大概墊高了50億左右但是這個當中其實是因為我們有一個跟交通部之間的平台不好意思我問問題很具體的那個成本跟費用是兩回事你知道吧你有沒有看過財報這個是基本的財塊吧剛剛我講的是營業費用\n\n01:26.123 --> 01:36.206\n營業費用成長了幾%你知不知道營業費用大概成長了大概在5%之內錯營業費用2023年166億2024年186億成長12%營收6.8%營業費用成長了12%理由是什麼我想我們相關的攤提跟人事費用都有在增加\n\n01:54.625 --> 02:18.713\n我這樣具體的講啊外界對你上任事實上你有沒有交通專業有人幫你緩假你有沒有經營專業啊現在考驗正在開始對自己的業務要守對自己的業務要守當然是2024年跟2023年啊最後稅前的經歷相差多少\n\n02:20.522 --> 02:33.175\n到2024年大概稅前淨利已經降到70億下大概68億左右有稍微減少的十幾億稅前淨利稅前的話當然我剛講的是稅後那稅前的話大概是這個這個是從78億降到64.5億稅前淨利\n\n02:39.611 --> 02:43.455\n稅前淨利2023年97億對這是稅前我剛剛講2024年80億為什麼2024年營收增加稅前淨利反而降低我剛剛特別講了就是說關於營業的成本以及這個相關攤體的費用\n\n02:56.786 --> 03:11.341\n就最後啦業務內的收入事實上是增加的問題出在業務外的收入跟支出你可能回去再把高鐵的財務狀況好好看清楚今天只是測試ABC啦\n\n03:12.335 --> 03:28.160\n我必須要說今天的測試顯然你對於高鐵的業務要掌握還有很長一段路要走我今天所講的數字所有的公民都可以上高鐵的財報去check看我講的對不對好來請台鐵董事長\n\n03:32.202 --> 03:57.795\n委員好董事長好辛苦喔從高鐵董事長變台鐵董事長責任更重做大事不是做大官你這樣的精神我非常佩服今天我代讀你的報告上面寫說你要貫徹當責文化我看了這四個字我非常非常的欣賞為什麼我說企業文化本來就要成敗有責嘛\n\n03:59.055 --> 04:19.994\n誰搞的爛攤子誰負責嘛做的好的就要獎勵嘛董事長贊不贊成就是這樣就是這樣嘛好來我帶董事長看你接下來收拾哪些爛攤子台鐵三千型至強號新的車子啊不曉得哪裡去設計這個爛椅子啊都新的椅子喔\n\n04:23.322 --> 04:39.136\n站在旁邊的陳士凱部長也承認這個椅子爛到爆確實要改進改進這個椅子花一億八千四百五十萬來董事長請教依照你當責文化的精神這件事情誰要負責\n\n04:40.663 --> 05:04.664\n我想這個我們當然這個我們看當時我們發包的這個情況那看到廠商交給我們的那是不是按照我們當時廠商交給我們的就是按照我們當初設計的是所以那個問題來了這個爛椅子當初是誰訂的按照您所講的當者文化的精神這件事要不要究責\n\n05:06.158 --> 05:34.369\n我們再繼續來瞭解一下需要多久你剛上任我給你多一點的時間兩個月之內去瞭解發生了什麼事誰應該負責任一億八千四百五十萬誰要負責可以嗎兩個月夠不夠好謝謝董事今天第一次第一次我都是很溫暖的我幫你把問題都整理出來讓董事長可以回去掌握狀況第二件事情\n\n05:35.816 --> 05:43.833\n當哲文化為什麼重要台鐵過去所出現的狀況就是有不肖的商人跟政客結合\n\n05:45.752 --> 06:05.767\n政客帶著不肖的廠商跑去台鐵沒有專業做業務指導說要做這個要做那個結果呢結果台鐵要搞一個列控4.0列控4.0花了納稅人六千萬一事無成一敗塗地\n\n06:07.088 --> 06:35.299\n一次五成一敗塗地啊我直接問運安會啊這個列控4.0到底能用不能用啊運安會主委在交通委員會很誠實的打槍啊這根本不能用啊根本不能用那問題來啦當初大官帶著不銷廠商去台鐵直接強加在台鐵身上搞這個列控4.0來董事長你認為還要再繼續搞下去嗎\n\n06:36.277 --> 06:59.783\n跟委員報告這個事情我們會持續在我們公司內部的安全委員會檢討需要多久兩個月好不好兩個月可以好可以一樣這件事情我給你兩個月錯了就認錯不要為了掩飾過去的錯誤還要再砸更多的錢頭一個不孝廠商造成台灣多少傷害\n\n07:00.823 --> 07:29.893\n不是只有台鐵是受害人啊那台南搞那個自駕系統爛到爆一樣不能用丟了好幾千萬下去你石頭丟到水裡還有一身啊那個是幾千萬砸下去什麼都沒有同一個劣質廠商連我們淘機都得標現在搞到都解約啦部長站在旁邊啦應該很清楚我在說什麼講了好幾次啦台鐵當著文化\n\n07:31.977 --> 07:47.718\n成敗要有責第三個矽科站矽科站很長矽科站中站出口工程之前發包我把整個歷程調出來這個可能是部長要回答的問題\n\n07:50.123 --> 08:11.469\n結果本來預定2025年5月要竣工現在是2025年的6月原定2025年5月要竣工現在2025年6月部長知不知道工程進度多少工程進度非常緩慢因為當時的廠商他做不了所以解約那解約該罰款我們也有罰款非常好這個就是我要提醒的事情\n\n08:12.449 --> 08:32.518\n本來矽科站很長嘛有去過矽子然後在矽子那邊矽科站上下的居民大家感受都很深嘛那好不容易有這個經費做這個事情本來現在要竣工了搞到現在進度只有百分之1.8不是18是1.8看了這個歷程我就覺得很奇怪\n\n08:33.871 --> 08:48.760\n我們的鐵道局開工凍土典禮是2023年12月8號開工凍土典禮當然就是政商名流大家拍照結果搞到後來是什麼結果搞到後來是那個廠商說我自己能力不足\n\n08:49.864 --> 09:15.960\n我能力不足我第一次看到一個廠商講話這麼直白我能力不足我沒有辦法做他能力不足沒有辦法做當初是怎麼給他得標的這個事情有回去了解嗎這個當初到底怎麼搞的太離譜了啊這個廠商自我坦白我能力不足我做不下去了當初怎麼給他得標的這個事情哲烈要不要追究部長這個我們會去了解需要多久\n\n09:18.513 --> 09:30.348\n你不是新手啦所以給你一個月了解責任一個月沒有問題可以嗎可以啊沒有問題再來台鐵遮斷器這我質詢過非常多次從去年到現在\n\n09:31.773 --> 09:50.878\n從花東到彰化影響到非常多人的交通安全故障的次數高到嚇死人200多次來我們來review一下從我去年開始關心這件事情到現在你知道從去年到現在多裝了幾套遮斷器嗎跟委員報告這個案子到目前我們到4月點已經完成安裝了300\n\n10:03.577 --> 10:19.357\n406套是是是這個我知道這個數字那個董事長你看PPT那個你前面有螢幕我有可能整理的比你還完整你直接看我的PPT就好了上面的數字不會錯了解一下去年9月喔\n\n10:20.626 --> 10:38.138\n到現在他已經遲延非常久了遲延非常久是累積的問題那我關心的是我從去年9月到現在裝了幾套多裝了14套從396套到406套然後目前為止裝設進度只有到29%下一個問題我有這個事情牽涉到行人的交通安全\n\n10:48.959 --> 11:17.429\n我們國家花大錢砸了好幾億下去搞這個東西結果一樣我們的招標系統很奇怪專門都找到那種沒有能力的專業性不夠的劣質廠商交通部送來交通委員會的解凍報告部長你應該還記得你說解凍報告說這個遮斷器的電源改善系統什麼時候要完成改善是11月要完成嗎\n\n11:18.766 --> 11:37.004\n我應該沒寫錯嘛你知道現在11月可以完成嗎這個部分可以完成可以確定可以來來來來來交通部電源改善工程採購履約期間要到2026年10月27號所以是這個公告有問題嗎\n\n11:40.151 --> 11:50.576\n我看到這個採購的公告履約的期間我嚇一跳交通部送給交通委員的報告是今年11月要完成啊這個履約期間是到2026年11月27號這怎麼回事這是什麼不對勁\n\n11:57.031 --> 12:21.521\n差一檔餒委員來請總經理來跟您報告好嗎可以報告委員那委員關切的事項主要是因為我們老舊電源要改善是我了解CMT案跟另外額外還有發包兩個案在進行是所以呢到底什麼時候要完成11月是我們CMT原來就已經在進行的部分會完成那我們新發包的要到明年的對嘛這個時間你們送給國會的報告齁\n\n12:27.352 --> 12:55.386\n不要在那邊遮遮掩掩你隨便送給交通委員會一個唬爛的解凍報告告訴交通委員會的委員11月會完成時間會到歷史會檢驗嘛我光看你們這個公告今年11月就不會完成啊報告委員這是兩個案子啊是這上面寫的是第一個案子第一個案子我們在11月會完成這個沒有問題那第二個案子會比較後面對嘛但我現在的重點是什麼\n\n12:56.448 --> 13:24.546\n我現在的重點是這個丟了好幾億下去的公司的工程早就該完成了嘛我們現在處於delay的狀態我為什麼會關心他什麼時候該完成鐵路停交道耶這牽涉到每一個行人的生命耶這不是開玩笑的事耶我為什麼會定這個事如果現在的系統是安全的那我們根本就不用花錢去搞這件事啊\n\n13:25.308 --> 13:31.512\n就是不安全才花錢去搞嘛不安全花錢去搞錢砸下去了到目前為止呢到目前為止不斷的延宕你們都不會擔心喔還是我一個人在起顏悠天你們都不會擔心喔報告委員這個在改善當中在進行當中\n\n13:50.356 --> 14:09.815\n最後一個問題這個案子我一直追我覺得莫名其妙這個廠商敢包這個標道的遮斷器他有能力做嗎怎麼會得標了以後在那邊怪東怪西我的產品有問題是因為電源什麼電源有問題\n\n14:11.107 --> 14:34.716\n然後要我們國家再幫這個廠商出一大筆錢再去改善這個電源供應系統整件事情啊讓我覺得莫名其妙但是當我發現莫名其妙的時候我一定會開始追我開始追我就發現了說有關於新版遮斷器的動作電流\n\n14:36.291 --> 14:56.568\n他說呢本來2020年9月核定的遮斷器規範當中裡面是有要求的但是呢後來經廠商反應後檢討在同年12月也就是2020年12月修訂進版的時候取消\n\n14:57.822 --> 15:22.235\n電流限制取消電流限制是什麼就是讓這個廠商本來沒這個能力的沒有辦法來投變成有辦法來投這個是幫這個沒有能力的廠商量身打造再改標案規格嗎來請教部長是委員長部長他這個取消的過程是要不要請總經理他比較了解整個好可以來請總經理\n\n15:23.735 --> 15:49.763\n包委員這個我們內部也有進行調查然後呢調查結果呢對我們現在目前是主要是在我們這段期在公約的過程中廠商有反映說這個電源限制的部分因應現在目前功能提升可以做取消不過在後面廠商提出來的一個產品它還是符合我們規範裡面的一個安培數的這個限制\n\n15:50.123 --> 16:14.332\n那現在這個案子如果符合規範的話我們還要幫他砸錢幫廠商改善電流供應報委員主要是因為現在目前是我們的電源老舊它不穩定所以我們需要去做改善讓這個遮斷機運作能夠正常更穩定所以呢我們的電源老舊是現在才發現還是當初他投票就知道我們在過程中發現這樣的一個課題\n\n16:17.013 --> 16:43.764\n我這樣子講好了啦剛剛你說你們這件事情有進行內部調查嗎有調查報告嗎我們也已經有初步的這個調查報告可以送來嗎可以啊今天下班以前把調查報告送來這件事情我一定追到底啊改標案規格讓他進來投得標了以後再抱怨電流系統有問題政府再幫他出錢改我們的政府很有錢啊\n\n16:45.621 --> 17:04.995\n對這種無能不孝的廠商啊特別的溫柔啊反正花的又不是自己的錢全部花納稅的錢可以這樣搞喔今天下班以前把報告送來可以嗎可以幫委員我們先前也有把我們調查的資料有提供給委員參考沒有關係下班以前調查報告送來好好\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.986,"end":29.88,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長台鐵政董事長 高鐵石澤董事長政董事長 高鐵石董事長三位好 時間的關係不一一問候 首先請教石澤董事長今天所提出來的書面報告 特別點出來了"},{"start":31.155,"end":35.118,"text":"2024年相較到2023年的營收從531.9億然後從2023年的498.1億成長到2024年的531.9億成長幅度約74%上升6.8%啦那請教一下石油董事長2023年跟2024年就營業費用的部分成長了幾%"},{"start":59.329,"end":79.761,"text":"也成長了差不多這個超過這個數字大概營業費用的成本大概墊高了50億左右但是這個當中其實是因為我們有一個跟交通部之間的平台不好意思我問問題很具體的那個成本跟費用是兩回事你知道吧你有沒有看過財報這個是基本的財塊吧剛剛我講的是營業費用"},{"start":86.123,"end":96.206,"text":"營業費用成長了幾%你知不知道營業費用大概成長了大概在5%之內錯營業費用2023年166億2024年186億成長12%營收6.8%營業費用成長了12%理由是什麼我想我們相關的攤提跟人事費用都有在增加"},{"start":114.625,"end":138.713,"text":"我這樣具體的講啊外界對你上任事實上你有沒有交通專業有人幫你緩假你有沒有經營專業啊現在考驗正在開始對自己的業務要守對自己的業務要守當然是2024年跟2023年啊最後稅前的經歷相差多少"},{"start":140.522,"end":153.175,"text":"到2024年大概稅前淨利已經降到70億下大概68億左右有稍微減少的十幾億稅前淨利稅前的話當然我剛講的是稅後那稅前的話大概是這個這個是從78億降到64.5億稅前淨利"},{"start":159.611,"end":163.455,"text":"稅前淨利2023年97億對這是稅前我剛剛講2024年80億為什麼2024年營收增加稅前淨利反而降低我剛剛特別講了就是說關於營業的成本以及這個相關攤體的費用"},{"start":176.786,"end":191.341,"text":"就最後啦業務內的收入事實上是增加的問題出在業務外的收入跟支出你可能回去再把高鐵的財務狀況好好看清楚今天只是測試ABC啦"},{"start":192.335,"end":208.16,"text":"我必須要說今天的測試顯然你對於高鐵的業務要掌握還有很長一段路要走我今天所講的數字所有的公民都可以上高鐵的財報去check看我講的對不對好來請台鐵董事長"},{"start":212.202,"end":237.795,"text":"委員好 董事長好 辛苦喔從高鐵董事長變台鐵董事長 責任更重做大事不是做大官 你這樣的精神我非常佩服今天我代讀你的報告 上面寫說你要貫徹當責文化我看了這四個字 我非常非常的欣賞為什麼我說 企業文化本來就要成敗有責嘛"},{"start":239.055,"end":259.994,"text":"誰搞的爛攤子誰負責嘛做的好的就要獎勵嘛董事長 贊不贊成就是這樣就是這樣嘛 好來我帶董事長看你接下來收拾哪些爛攤子台鐵三千型至強號新的車子啊不曉得哪裡去設計這個爛椅子啊都新的椅子喔"},{"start":263.322,"end":279.136,"text":"站在旁邊的陳士凱部長也承認這個椅子爛到爆確實要改進改進這個椅子花一億八千四百五十萬來董事長請教依照你當責文化的精神這件事情誰要負責"},{"start":280.663,"end":304.664,"text":"我想這個我們當然這個我們看當時我們發包的這個情況那看到廠商交給我們的那是不是按照我們當時廠商交給我們的就是按照我們當初設計的是所以那個問題來了這個爛椅子當初是誰訂的按照您所講的當者文化的精神這件事要不要究責"},{"start":306.158,"end":334.369,"text":"我們再繼續來瞭解一下需要多久你剛上任我給你多一點的時間兩個月之內去瞭解發生了什麼事誰應該負責任一億八千四百五十萬誰要負責可以嗎 兩個月夠不夠好 謝謝董事今天第一次第一次我都是很溫暖的我幫你把問題都整理出來讓董事長可以回去掌握狀況第二件事情"},{"start":335.816,"end":343.833,"text":"當哲文化為什麼重要台鐵過去所出現的狀況就是有不肖的商人跟政客結合"},{"start":345.752,"end":365.767,"text":"政客帶著不肖的廠商跑去台鐵沒有專業做業務指導說要做這個要做那個結果呢結果台鐵要搞一個列控4.0列控4.0花了納稅人六千萬一事無成一敗塗地"},{"start":367.088,"end":395.299,"text":"一次五成一敗塗地啊我直接問運安會啊這個列控4.0到底能用不能用啊運安會主委在交通委員會很誠實的打槍啊這根本不能用啊根本不能用那問題來啦當初大官帶著不銷廠商去台鐵直接強加在台鐵身上搞這個列控4.0來 董事長你認為還要再繼續搞下去嗎"},{"start":396.277,"end":419.783,"text":"跟委員報告這個事情我們會持續在我們公司內部的安全委員會檢討需要多久兩個月好不好兩個月可以好可以一樣這件事情我給你兩個月錯了就認錯不要為了掩飾過去的錯誤還要再砸更多的錢頭一個不孝廠商造成台灣多少傷害"},{"start":420.823,"end":449.893,"text":"不是只有台鐵是受害人啊那台南搞那個自駕系統爛到爆一樣不能用丟了好幾千萬下去你石頭丟到水裡還有一身啊那個是幾千萬砸下去什麼都沒有同一個劣質廠商連我們淘機都得標現在搞到都解約啦部長站在旁邊啦應該很清楚我在說什麼講了好幾次啦台鐵當著文化"},{"start":451.977,"end":467.718,"text":"成敗要有責第三個矽科站矽科站很長矽科站中站出口工程之前發包我把整個歷程調出來 這個可能是部長要回答的問題"},{"start":470.123,"end":491.469,"text":"結果本來預定2025年5月要竣工現在是2025年的6月原定2025年5月要竣工現在2025年6月部長知不知道工程進度多少工程進度非常緩慢因為當時的廠商他做不了所以解約那解約該罰款我們也有罰款非常好這個就是我要提醒的事情"},{"start":492.449,"end":512.518,"text":"本來矽科站很長嘛有去過矽子然後在矽子那邊矽科站上下的居民大家感受都很深嘛那好不容易有這個經費做這個事情本來現在要竣工了搞到現在進度只有百分之1.8不是18是1.8看了這個歷程我就覺得很奇怪"},{"start":513.871,"end":528.76,"text":"我們的鐵道局開工凍土典禮是2023年12月8號開工凍土典禮當然就是政商名流大家拍照結果搞到後來是什麼結果搞到後來是那個廠商說我自己能力不足"},{"start":529.864,"end":555.96,"text":"我能力不足我第一次看到一個廠商講話這麼直白我能力不足我沒有辦法做他能力不足沒有辦法做 當初是怎麼給他得標的這個事情有回去了解嗎這個當初到底怎麼搞的 太離譜了啊這個廠商自我坦白 我能力不足 我做不下去了當初怎麼給他得標的 這個事情哲烈要不要追究 部長這個我們會去了解需要多久"},{"start":558.513,"end":570.348,"text":"你不是新手啦所以給你一個月了解責任一個月沒有問題可以嗎可以啊沒有問題再來台鐵遮斷器這我質詢過非常多次從去年到現在"},{"start":571.773,"end":590.878,"text":"從花東到彰化影響到非常多人的交通安全故障的次數高到嚇死人200多次來我們來review一下從我去年開始關心這件事情到現在你知道從去年到現在多裝了幾套遮斷器嗎跟委員報告這個案子到目前我們到4月點已經完成安裝了300"},{"start":603.577,"end":619.357,"text":"406套是是是這個我知道這個數字那個董事長你看PPT那個你前面有螢幕我有可能整理的比你還完整你直接看我的PPT就好了上面的數字不會錯了解一下去年9月喔"},{"start":620.626,"end":638.138,"text":"到現在他已經遲延非常久了遲延非常久是累積的問題那我關心的是我從去年9月到現在裝了幾套多裝了14套從396套到406套然後目前為止裝設進度只有到29%下一個問題我有這個事情牽涉到行人的交通安全"},{"start":648.959,"end":677.429,"text":"我們國家花大錢砸了好幾億下去搞這個東西結果一樣我們的招標系統很奇怪專門都找到那種沒有能力的專業性不夠的劣質廠商交通部送來交通委員會的解凍報告部長你應該還記得你說解凍報告說這個遮斷器的電源改善系統什麼時候要完成改善是11月要完成嗎"},{"start":678.766,"end":697.004,"text":"我應該沒寫錯嘛你知道現在11月可以完成嗎這個部分可以完成可以確定可以來來來來來交通部電源改善工程採購履約期間要到2026年10月27號所以是這個公告有問題嗎"},{"start":700.151,"end":710.576,"text":"我看到這個採購的公告履約的期間我嚇一跳交通部送給交通委員的報告是今年11月要完成啊這個履約期間是到2026年11月27號這怎麼回事這是什麼不對勁"},{"start":717.031,"end":741.521,"text":"差一檔餒委員來請總經理來跟您報告好嗎可以報告委員 那委員關切的事項主要是因為我們老舊電源要改善是 我了解CMT案跟另外額外還有發包兩個案在進行是 所以呢 到底什麼時候要完成11月是我們CMT原來就已經在進行的部分會完成那我們新發包的要到明年的對嘛這個時間你們送給國會的報告齁"},{"start":747.352,"end":775.386,"text":"不要在那邊遮遮掩掩你隨便送給交通委員會一個唬爛的解凍報告告訴交通委員會的委員11月會完成時間會到歷史會檢驗嘛我光看你們這個公告今年11月就不會完成啊報告委員這是兩個案子啊是這上面寫的是第一個案子第一個案子我們在11月會完成這個沒有問題那第二個案子會比較後面對嘛但我現在的重點是什麼"},{"start":776.448,"end":804.546,"text":"我現在的重點是這個丟了好幾億下去的公司的工程早就該完成了嘛我們現在處於delay的狀態我為什麼會關心他什麼時候該完成鐵路停交道耶這牽涉到每一個行人的生命耶這不是開玩笑的事耶我為什麼會定這個事如果現在的系統是安全的那我們根本就不用花錢去搞這件事啊"},{"start":805.308,"end":811.512,"text":"就是不安全才花錢去搞嘛不安全花錢去搞 錢砸下去了 到目前為止呢到目前為止不斷的延宕你們都不會擔心喔還是我一個人在起顏悠天你們都不會擔心喔報告委員 這個在改善當中在進行當中"},{"start":830.356,"end":849.815,"text":"最後一個問題這個案子我一直追我覺得莫名其妙這個廠商敢包這個標道的遮斷器他有能力做嗎怎麼會得標了以後在那邊怪東怪西我的產品有問題是因為電源什麼電源有問題"},{"start":851.107,"end":874.716,"text":"然後要我們國家再幫這個廠商出一大筆錢再去改善這個電源供應系統整件事情啊讓我覺得莫名其妙但是當我發現莫名其妙的時候我一定會開始追我開始追我就發現了說有關於新版遮斷器的動作電流"},{"start":876.291,"end":896.568,"text":"他說呢本來2020年9月核定的遮斷器規範當中裡面是有要求的但是呢後來經廠商反應後檢討在同年12月也就是2020年12月修訂進版的時候取消"},{"start":897.822,"end":922.235,"text":"電流限制取消電流限制是什麼就是讓這個廠商本來沒這個能力的沒有辦法來投變成有辦法來投這個是幫這個沒有能力的廠商量身打造再改標案規格嗎來請教部長是委員長部長他這個取消的過程是要不要請總經理他比較了解整個好可以來請總經理"},{"start":923.735,"end":949.763,"text":"包委員 這個我們內部也有進行調查然後呢 調查結果呢對 我們現在目前是主要是在我們這段期在公約的過程中廠商有反映說這個電源限制的部分因應現在目前功能提升可以做取消不過在後面廠商提出來的一個產品它還是符合我們規範裡面的一個安培數的這個限制"},{"start":950.123,"end":974.332,"text":"那現在這個案子如果符合規範的話我們還要幫他砸錢幫廠商改善電流供應報委員主要是因為現在目前是我們的電源老舊它不穩定所以我們需要去做改善讓這個遮斷機運作能夠正常更穩定所以呢我們的電源老舊是現在才發現還是當初他投票就知道我們在過程中發現這樣的一個課題"},{"start":977.013,"end":1003.764,"text":"我這樣子講好了啦剛剛你說你們這件事情有進行內部調查嗎有調查報告嗎我們也已經有初步的這個調查報告可以送來嗎可以啊今天下班以前把調查報告送來這件事情我一定追到底啊改標案規格讓他進來投得標了以後再抱怨電流系統有問題政府再幫他出錢改我們的政府很有錢啊"},{"start":1005.621,"end":1024.995,"text":"對這種無能不孝的廠商啊特別的溫柔啊反正花的又不是自己的錢全部花納稅的錢可以這樣搞喔今天下班以前把報告送來可以嗎可以幫委員我們先前也有把我們調查的資料有提供給委員參考沒有關係下班以前調查報告送來好好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":113,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時36分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["黃委員國昌：臺鐵鄭董事長、高鐵史哲董事長。"],["主席：臺鐵鄭董事長、高鐵史董事長。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好。時間的關係，不一一問候。首先請教史哲董事長，今天所提出來的書面報告特別點出來2024年相較2023年的營收，從2023年的498.1億成長到2024年的531.9億，成長幅度約7%，事實上是6.8%。"],["史董事長哲：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請教一下史哲董事長，2023年跟2024年就營業費用的部分成長了百分之幾？"],["史董事長哲：也成長了超過這個數字，營業費用的成本大概墊高了50億左右，但是這個當中是因為我們跟交通部之間有一個……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，我問的問題很具體，那個成本跟費用是兩回事，你知道嗎？你有沒有看過財報？"],["史董事長哲：是，有。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是基本的財會吧，剛剛我講的是營業費用。"],["史董事長哲：是啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對，那營業費用成長了百分之幾，你知不知道？"],["史董事長哲：營業費用的成長大概在5%之內。"],["黃委員國昌：錯，營業費用2023年166億，2024年186億，成長12%；營收6.8%，營業費用成長了12%，理由是什麼？"],["史董事長哲：我想我們相關的攤提跟人事費用都有在增加。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣具體的講，外界對你上任，事實上你有沒有交通專業，有人幫你緩頰，你有沒有經營專業，現在考驗正在開始，對自己的業務要熟、對自己的業務要熟！"],["史董事長哲：當然，是！"],["黃委員國昌：2024年跟2023年最後稅前淨利相差多少？"],["史董事長哲：到2024年大概稅前淨利已經降到70億以下，大概68億左右，有稍微減少了十幾億。"],["黃委員國昌：稅前淨利？"],["史董事長哲：我剛剛講的是稅後，稅前的話大概是從78億降到64.5億。"],["黃委員國昌：稅前淨利2023年97億。"],["史董事長哲：對，這是稅前，我剛剛講的是稅後。"],["黃委員國昌：2024年80億。"],["史董事長哲：是。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼2024年營收增加，稅前淨利反而降低？"],["史董事長哲：我剛剛特別講了，就是有關於營業的成本以及相關攤提費用……"],["黃委員國昌：錯！最後業務內收入事實上是增加的，問題出在業務外的收入跟支出。你回去可能要再把高鐵的財務狀況好好看清楚，今天只是測試ABC，我必須要說今天的測試，顯然你對於高鐵的業務要掌握還有很長一段路要走。我今天所講的數字，所有的公民都可以上高鐵的財報去check，看我講的對不對。好，請臺鐵董事長。"],["鄭董事長光遠：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：董事長好。辛苦，從高鐵董事長變臺鐵董事長，責任更重，做大事不是做大官！你這樣的精神我非常佩服。今天我拜讀你的報告，上面寫你要貫徹當責文化，我看了這四個字，我非常非常的欣賞！為什麼我說企業文化本來就要成敗有責？誰搞的爛攤子，誰負責！做得好的就要獎勵，董事長，贊不贊成？"],["鄭董事長光遠：就是這樣！"],["黃委員國昌：就是這樣！我帶董事長看你接下來要收拾哪些爛攤子。臺鐵3000型自強號新的車子不曉得哪裡去設計這個爛椅子？都是新的椅子，站在旁邊的陳世凱部長也承認這個椅子爛到爆，確實要改進，改進這個椅子花1億8,450萬。請教董事長，依照你當責文化的精神，這件事情誰要負責？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我想這個我們當然要看當時發包的情況，看廠商交給我們的是不是按照我們當時……"],["黃委員國昌：是，廠商交給你們的就是按照你們當初設計的。現在問題來了，這個爛椅子當初是誰訂的？按照您所講的當責文化的精神，這件事要不要究責？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們再繼續了解一下當時……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？你剛上任，我給你多一點的時間，兩個月之內去了解發生了什麼事、誰應該負責任？1億8,450萬誰要負責？可以嗎？兩個月夠不夠？"],["鄭董事長光遠：好，我們來……"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝董事長，今天是第一次，第一次我都是很溫暖的，我幫你把問題都整理出來，讓董事長可以回去掌握狀況。","第二件事情，當責文化為什麼重要？臺鐵過去所出現的狀況就是有不肖商人跟政客結合，政客帶著不肖的廠商跑去臺鐵，沒有專業，做業務指導，說要做這個、要做那個，結果呢？結果臺鐵要搞一個列控4.0，列控4.0花了納稅人6,000萬，一事無成！一敗塗地！我直接問運安會，這個列控4.0到底能用不能用？運安會主委在交通委員會很誠實的打槍，根本不能用！根本不能用！那問題來了，當初大官帶著不肖廠商去臺鐵，直接強加在臺鐵身上搞這個列控4.0，董事長，你認為還要再繼續搞下去嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，這個事情我們會持續在我們公司內部的安全委員會檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們……"],["黃委員國昌：兩個月好不好？"],["鄭董事長光遠：兩個月可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以！一樣，這件事情我給你兩個月，錯了就認錯，不要為了掩飾過去的錯誤，還要再砸更多的錢。同一個不肖廠商造成臺灣多少傷害，不是只有臺鐵是受害人，臺南搞那個自駕系統，爛到爆！一樣不能用，丟了好幾千萬下去，「啵」！石頭丟到水裡還有一聲，那個是幾千萬砸下去，什麼都沒有！同一個劣質廠商連桃機都得標，現在搞到都解約了，部長站在旁邊，應該很清楚我在說什麼，講了好幾次，臺鐵當責文化，成敗要有責！","第三個，汐科站很長，汐科站中站出口工程之前發包，我把整個歷程調出來，這個可能是部長要回答的問題，本來預定2025年5月要竣工，現在是2025年的6月，原訂2025年5月要竣工，現在2025年6月，部長知不知道工程進度多少？"],["陳部長世凱：工程進度非常緩慢，因為當時的廠商做不了，所以解約，解約該罰款，我們也有罰款，重新發包。"],["黃委員國昌：非常好，這個就是我要提醒的事情。本來汐科站很長，有去過汐止，然後在汐止那邊汐科站上下的居民，大家感受都很深，好不容易有這個經費做這個事情，本來現在要竣工了，搞到現在進度只有1.8%，不是18%，是1.8%！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員國昌：看了這個歷程，我也是覺得很奇怪，我們的鐵道局開工動土典禮是2023年12月8號，開工動土典禮當然就是政商名流大家拍照，結果搞到後來是什麼？結果搞到後來是那個廠商說自己能力不足。我第一次看到一個廠商講話這麼直白，說他能力不足，他沒有辦法做。他能力不足，沒有辦法做，當初是怎麼給他得標的，這個事情有回去了解嗎？這個當初到底怎麼搞的，太離譜了！這個廠商自我坦白，說他能力不足，他做不下去了。當初是怎麼給他得標的，部長，這個事情的責任要不要追究？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們會去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？你不是新手，所以給你1個月。"],["陳部長世凱：了解責任1個月沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：可以，沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好。再來，臺鐵遮斷器，這個我質詢過非常多次，從去年到現在，從花東到彰化，影響到非常多人的交通安全，故障的次數高到嚇死人！兩百多次。","我們來review一下，從我去年開始關心這件事情到現在，你知道從去年到現在多裝了幾套遮斷器嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：請董事長。"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，這個案子我們到4月底已經完成了安裝406套……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，這個數字我知道。董事長，你看PPT，我可能整理得比你還完整，你直接看我的PPT就好了，上面的數字不會錯。了解一下，去年9月到現在，它已經遲延非常久了，遲延非常久是累積的問題，我關心的是從去年9月到現在裝了幾套？多裝了14套，從392套到406套，目前為止裝設進度只有到29%。","下一個問題，我問的這個事情牽涉到行人的交通安全，國家花大錢砸了好幾億下去搞這個東西，結果一樣，我們的招標系統很奇怪，都專門找到那種沒有能力的、專業性不夠的劣質廠商。交通部送來交通委員會的解凍報告，部長，你應該還記得，解凍報告說這個遮斷器的電源改善系統什麼時候要完成？是11月要完成。我應該沒寫錯嘛！你知道現在11月可以完成嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：可以……"],["黃委員國昌：確定可以？請看，平交道電源改善工程，採購履約期間要到2026年10月27日，所以是這個公告有問題嗎？我看到這個採購公告的履約期間嚇一跳，交通部送給交通委員會的報告是今年11月要完成，這個履約期間是到2026年10月27日，這是怎麼回事，這是寫錯了嗎？差1年耶！"],["鄭董事長光遠：委員，請總經理來跟您報告，好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以。"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，委員關切的事項主要是因為我們的老舊電源要改善，我們現在有……"],["黃委員國昌：是，我了解。"],["馮總經理輝昇：CMT案，另外還有額外發包的，有兩個案在進行，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以到底什麼時候要完成？"],["馮總經理輝昇：今年11月是我們CMT案原來就已經在進行的部分會完成，我們新發包的要到明年的這個時間才會完成。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你們送給國會的報告不要遮遮掩掩，你隨便送給交通委員會一個唬爛的解凍報告，告訴交通委員會的委員11月會完成。時間會到、歷史會檢驗。我光看你們這個公告，今年11月就不會完成啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這是兩個案子……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["陳部長世凱：這上面寫的是第一個案子，第一個案子，我們在11月會完成，這個沒有問題，第二個案子會比較後面。"],["黃委員國昌：是，對嘛！但我現在的重點是什麼？我現在的重點是這個丟了好幾億下去的工程早就該完成了，我們現在處於delay的狀態，我為什麼會關心它什麼時候該完成？鐵路平交道牽涉到每一個行人的生命，這不是開玩笑的事！我為什麼會盯這個事？如果現在的系統是安全的，我們根本就不用花錢去搞這件事，就是不安全，才花錢去搞，不安全，花錢去搞，錢砸下去了，到目前為止，不斷的延宕，你們都不會擔心喔？還是我一個人在杞人憂天？你們都不會擔心喔！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個在改善當中、在進行當中。"],["黃委員國昌：最後一個問題，這個案子我一直追，我覺得莫名其妙！這個廠商敢包這個平交道遮斷器的標案，表示他有能力做，怎麼會得標了以後在那邊怪東怪西，說他的產品有問題是因為電源有問題。然後要國家再幫這個廠商出一大筆錢去改善這個電源供應系統。整件事情讓我覺得莫名其妙！當我發現莫名其妙的時候，我一定會開始追，我開始追就發現了，你們的解凍報告說，有關於新版遮斷器的動作電流，本來2020年9月核定的遮斷器規範當中是有要求的，但是後來經廠商反映後檢討，在同年12月（也就是2020年12月）修訂進版的時候，取消電流限制。取消電流限制是什麼？就是讓這個廠商本來沒這個能力、沒有辦法來投，變成有辦法來投，這個是幫這個沒有能力的廠商量身打造在改標案規格嗎？請教部長。"],["陳部長世凱：要不要請總經理？他比較了解整個過程。"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以，請總經理。"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，這個我們內部也有進行調查……"],["黃委員國昌：調查結果呢？"],["馮總經理輝昇：主要是廠商有反映，在供應的過程中，遮斷器的電流限制部分因應目前功能提升可以做取消。不過在後面廠商提出來的產品還是符合我們規範裡面的安培數限制。現在這個案子……"],["黃委員國昌：如果符合規範的話，我們還要幫他砸錢，幫廠商改善電流供應喔！"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，主要是因為目前我們的電源老舊、不穩定，所以我們需要去做改善，讓這個遮斷器運作能夠正常、更穩定，這樣才能符合我們的需求。"],["黃委員國昌：我們的電源老舊是現在才發現，還是當初他投標的時候就知道？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們在過程中發現這樣的課題，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你說你們這件事情有進行內部調查嘛！"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：有調查報告嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們已經有初步的調查……"],["黃委員國昌：調查報告可以送來嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：今天下班以前把調查報告送來，這件事情我一定追到底。"],["馮總經理輝昇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：改標案規格讓他進來投，得標了以後，他再抱怨電流系統有問題，政府再幫他出錢改，我們的政府很有錢啊！對這種無能不肖的廠商特別的溫柔，反正花的又不是自己的錢，全部花納稅人的錢，可以這樣搞喔！今天下班以前把報告送來可以嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：可以，報告委員，我們先前有把我們調查的資料提供給委員參考。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，下班以前把調查報告送來。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌總召的質詢，現在請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-17","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","黃國昌","黃健豪","陳素月","何欣純","徐富癸","魯明哲","洪孟楷","林俊憲","蔡其昌","王義川","陳雪生","邱若華","林月琴","陳俊宇","黃建賓","張雅琳","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王美惠","許智傑","葉元之","游顥","楊瓊瓔","邱鎮軍","廖先翔"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長、交通部鐵道局局長、交通部觀光署署長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長及\n台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長率所屬相關單位列席就「交通部觀光署、國營臺灣鐵路股份有\n限公司及台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司人事調整及新任首長之業務展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00014"}}}