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66.461, \"text\": \"那更關鍵的是這個高碳洩漏風險行業還可以適用排放量調整係數就是我剛才講的打一折打到骨折使最終實際繳納的碳費降到一噸只要10塊錢或者是20元\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 65.0, \"end\": 65.16, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 65.16, \"end\": 65.26, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"鍵\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 65.26, \"end\": 65.28, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 65.28, \"end\": 65.34, \"score\": 0.119}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 65.34, \"end\": 65.36, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 65.36, \"end\": 65.38, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"洩\"}, {\"word\": \"漏\", \"start\": 65.38, \"end\": 65.5, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 65.5, \"end\": 65.52, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 65.52, \"end\": 65.54, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 65.54, \"end\": 65.56, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, 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\"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 991.286, \"end\": 992.408, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 992.408, \"end\": 992.748, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"恩\", \"start\": 992.748, \"end\": 992.889, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 992.889, \"end\": 992.909, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,264 --> 00:00:11,250\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們次長有請次長委員好次長你們的部長去出國嗎\n\n2\n00:00:21,259 --> 00:00:45,253\n公務行程那根據氣候變遷這個因應法第29條還有你們環境部公布的執法的內容現在企業只要提出了自主減量計畫而且獲得你們的核定以後呢他們的碳費的費率可以享受到那種打折打到一折甚至打到骨折的最好的這個費率\n\n3\n00:00:48,235 --> 00:00:52,456\n那如果企業選擇對其國際的SBT的這個血檢率碳費一噸是50元那如果是對其我國的NDC國家制定貢獻的技術標杆那一噸是100元\n\n4\n00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,461\n那更關鍵的是這個高碳洩漏風險行業還可以適用排放量調整係數就是我剛才講的打一折打到骨折使最終實際繳納的碳費降到一噸只要10塊錢或者是20元\n\n5\n00:01:22,010 --> 00:01:48,995\n對企業來講非常非常的便宜但是要申請這個自主減量的時候要填寫四個表格四種資料第一個是事業的基本資料第二個是指定目標計畫然後第三個是減量的措施規劃第四個是年度指定的目標和查核點的規劃這個是個別企業去申報自主減量要填寫這四項資料對不對\n\n6\n00:01:51,451 --> 00:02:08,918\n那如果是這個共同申請模式要額外再填寫哪一種資料我可以請我們蔡組長說明嗎你不知道你是不是主管這個的我不是我不是督導這個業務的那沒關係你不用他說明我跟你報告就好了不敢同一個\n\n7\n00:02:10,339 --> 00:02:21,308\n同一個法人下署事業加總排放量的資料表計算各年度預估排放量以及加總排放量這個署長對吧是吧\n\n8\n00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:43,456\n可是我現在要談的是你們這種自主減量計畫的資訊公開卻做得很爛就是說我們動輒你要知道這是一個非常嚴重的一個嚴肅的課題署長\n\n9\n00:02:45,978 --> 00:03:02,751\n當一個計劃可以為企業帶來數千萬甚至上億元的碳費減免的時候它的內容的嚴謹性、真實性還有可執行性要受到最嚴格的公共檢視而我現在討論的就是說那你們怎麼樣讓這份公共檢視的公開透明給打折了\n\n10\n00:03:12,518 --> 00:03:14,840\n所以要問你們自主減量計畫為這個企業省下數千萬上億元你知道數千萬上億元的意思是何在嗎就是說這本來是企業的經營成本\n\n11\n00:03:28,030 --> 00:03:47,478\n那你讓他省掉了這些費率然後他就可以把成本給外部化他到底是要用在這個自主減真的實質的減碳或者是丟給社會來成本外部化去擴大他的公司的利潤這是兩件事喔\n\n12\n00:03:48,158 --> 00:04:08,303\n所以你們的制度設計是動見觀瞻啦而我今天就要請教你們的自主減量計畫的制度從誘因的設計到監督的機制到底是在鼓勵實質的減碳還是制度性在偷渡鼓勵投機票率假的安寧\n\n13\n00:04:10,595 --> 00:04:27,090\n市長你不知道沒關係輸定在內那這個署長這個資訊公開非常不足因為自主減量計畫的管理辦法你們第七條講中央機關得將自主減碳計畫因核定事項定期公開為什麼是得\n\n14\n00:04:29,428 --> 00:04:33,032\n他可以兌一棟五十戶一百戶到國際幣蓋他的碳費已經非常非常便宜了還可以打折打到骨折存十戶二十戶然後他到底做了什麼自主減量你們還不強制要求公開\n\n15\n00:04:47,668 --> 00:04:51,130\n然後公開的項目還設限一般的個別企業的申報他必須要公開包括計畫邊界、目標年及年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率的級別、核定減量的措施還有查核的方式\n\n16\n00:05:09,941 --> 00:05:23,378\n那同時呢如果是個別事業而言事業需同時達到各年度的溫室氣體排放量和逐年減量措施執行的進度都要標示出來才可以有所謂的優惠費率\n\n17\n00:05:27,315 --> 00:05:31,057\n你到底是設定六個目標你執行這個目標的進度怎麼樣我們大家看合定了有在做嗎這樣才可以適用優惠費率啊在這個資訊公開的設計上你們在與共同申請就不一樣了\n\n18\n00:05:46,837 --> 00:05:50,781\n共同申請的一間大企業通常共同申請的企業規模是大過於個別企業申請的規模的共同申請大企業裡面下屬的所有事業全部加總在一起一起申報一起申請\n\n19\n00:06:06,325 --> 00:06:09,388\n然後在這裡面只需要公開查核總排放量剛剛公開這個然後大家就講如果沒有達到這個查核的總排放量的時候才會進一步查核各子公司的年度指定目標在資訊公開機制的設計上個別企業的申報跟共同申請的法人之間差太多稍含\n\n20\n00:06:33,387 --> 00:06:46,720\n單一企業獨立申請的時候所有資料都要公開但是多個事業共同子公司合在一起政府公司共同申請的時候只需要揭露那個年度指定的目標加總\n\n21\n00:06:48,061 --> 00:07:04,029\n而不需要公開具體的減量措施也不需要公開查核的方式導致在共同申請的模式下揭露的資訊透明度相當的低影響了政策的公平性和成效署長你有什麼想法\n\n22\n00:07:07,798 --> 00:07:17,884\n跟委員報告只要是我們碳費徵收對象的工廠那他提了自主減量計畫就必須要按照我們自主減剛剛委員提到的自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條來做資訊我現在在說什麼我現在在說的重點是個別企業申請跟共同申請\n\n23\n00:07:27,889 --> 00:07:41,874\n為什麼資訊公開透明的內容差這麼多而我們知道個別企業的自主減量其實相對於共同申請的模式共同申請模式的企業是六大規模六大財團的結果是不透明然後被苛責的公共公開的這個接受檢視的項目是這麼久\n\n24\n00:07:52,538 --> 00:07:57,121\n這樣讓大企業大財團嘛我現在說是這樣啦不會這個共同申請我們還是會要求他底下的每一個廠他要提出來的這些資訊我現在講的是公開給大家看啦不是你要求啦我當然知道他申請的時候資料都要跟你們申請通通都要檢視啦給你們啦我現在是人民要看公民要檢視啦\n\n25\n00:08:17,333 --> 00:08:19,476\n動輒給他們幾千萬的省下他們的繳費上億元免納碳費不用交給全國人民一起來檢視嗎\n\n26\n00:08:29,036 --> 00:08:55,136\n它的核心目標是鼓勵企業自主減碳而不是只有被動的繳納碳費繳少一點所以你擁有享有優惠的碳費的時候除了你們政府要建立嚴格的審查機制確保減碳行動的真實性和有效性以外不是在變相的減輕企業負擔削弱政策的效果我們要的是我們要的是\n\n27\n00:08:56,377 --> 00:09:01,154\n公開透明資訊揭露我在問你資訊揭露的問題啦\n\n28\n00:09:02,543 --> 00:09:31,866\n是跟委員報告我們現在進行的進度是正在受理這一些自主減量計劃的審查那接下來審查之後的資訊公開我想不管是這個共同申請或者是個別提出來的申請我們都會用同樣的方式來做資訊公開我現在要問妳妳是作為一個署長嘛對個別申請跟共同申請所需要揭露的所有的內容都會完全一致一模一樣嗎是我們會接下來會用你目前沒有看到喔\n\n29\n00:09:32,886 --> 00:09:51,931\n因為我們現在正在做這個受理審查的工作我現在要看到的是他們的指定目標基準年安全場排放計算基礎標竿指定血檢力計算全場排放活動數據減量措施成效說明減量措施預算經費\n\n30\n00:09:54,142 --> 00:10:12,848\n還有這個目標年的污漬氣體逐年排放量他們的執行進度查核點的規劃通通會公開嗎是我們會共同申請跟個別申請在這個資訊公開的要求會是一樣的資訊公開是一樣是我講剛才念的那一些全部嗎還是一樣的精簡\n\n31\n00:10:14,657 --> 00:10:22,781\n我們現在的資訊公開一定是按照我們現在的自主減量計畫辦法的第七條你的自主減量的辦法第七條怎麼講計畫編切目標年年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率級別核定減量措施及查核方式通通都會公開嗎全部嗎\n\n32\n00:10:36,809 --> 00:10:43,133\n我們目前是按照這個條文來做這個規劃那會公開在這個自主減量計畫的我現在講的是你會不會全部都公開你不要這邊講那些會按照這個規定來我現在跟你講自主減量計畫的資訊完全揭露公開也可以避免企業票率讓社會大眾檢視企業的減碳承諾是否真實可信啊\n\n33\n00:11:00,143 --> 00:11:04,804\n大家給你承諾這樣但是你資訊沒有公開給大家看只有你們內部看得到我們都看不到誰知道這個到底給他減的這一些成本他用來實質減碳的還是去擴大到他累積到他公司的利潤的累積為了賺更多錢還是真的投入到實質的減碳裡面我們為什麼要公開你知道嗎是為了幫你們政府\n\n34\n00:11:27,708 --> 00:11:30,612\n有助於提高企業對外負責的壓力讓減排的承諾具體化而且揭露自主減量計畫有助於機構投資人掌握企業的碳排放情況\n\n35\n00:11:43,491 --> 00:11:51,255\n減量的策略還有目標執行的進度強化企業的影響力你知道這種自主減量計畫當中企業需要計算個別減量措施及其對應的預估年稅減量而且加總算計出各年度溫室氣體排放量這些資訊可以評估不同產業的技術可行性和減排的能力\n\n36\n00:12:09,904 --> 00:12:36,325\n要作為未來計算各排放源排放總量的基礎而且進而去制定合理的逐年總量的減排路徑所以我們就是這樣子你是省下這筆巨額的碳費是真的依據到實質的減碳行動上面而不是讓企業的財報上利潤不斷的累積所以我們在這裡署長制度設計上\n\n37\n00:12:38,499 --> 00:13:02,331\n絕對不能允許共同申請的資訊揭露標準低於單一企業的申請民間團體已經很明確的跟你們講要公開每年的執行報告個別減量措施的預估年血減量還有減量措施預算經費表等相關資訊署長你這裡到底有沒有辦法我剛剛講的\n\n38\n00:13:06,713 --> 00:13:29,846\n每年的執行報告個別減量的預估年稅減量還有減量措施預算經費表建置一個公開透明可供全民檢視的自主減量計畫申報平台給大家看可以嗎是這個我們本來在收費辦法裡面自主減量計畫管理辦法就有這樣子一個公開的一個要規定沒有我現在告訴你是本來是政府得\n\n39\n00:13:36,059 --> 00:13:55,540\n對但是我們現在就是這個條文裡面的得公開的這些我們項目都會公開我現在告訴你說每年的執行報告會公開嗎會個別共同申請喔是個別減量措施的預估年稅減量會公開嗎會減量措施的預算經費表會公開嗎會\n\n40\n00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:15,863\n我希望都全部公開因為公開資訊有助於讓大企業也投資者有股票上市公司投資者消費者都可以評估企業低碳轉型或清潔製程導入的速度和方向而且判斷它是不是符合政策目標\n\n41\n00:14:16,784 --> 00:14:40,071\n作為投資和消費這一家大企業的依據然後建立起人民對他的信任而且讓如果使用再生能源使用率提升或燃煤鍋爐的淘汰進度這些資訊都攸關到企業減碳的績效而且影響到一般民眾的健康權益所以這個很重要\n\n42\n00:14:41,246 --> 00:14:41,829\n我們希望我們給他這麼少一棟10顆20顆的碳費\n\n43\n00:14:47,625 --> 00:15:13,081\n你為一間公司簽過的請問簽過的請問整頁的稅金匯率你到底有真的在做檢排嗎我們要檢視不是只有政府在檢視我們人民也要檢視所以今天在這裡我先談到這裡公開透明這個是引進公民監督進而減少政府的壓力\n\n44\n00:15:14,332 --> 00:15:38,249\n大家一起幫你看,政府不是施壓於政府而已這企業不是施壓於政府,壓力全民都扛著,大家一起看檢慶政府的壓力啊,有沒有,有啊所以我們絕對不允許這個經營成本丟給社會,然後他不減排,然後只有把稅金蓋起來,大家盈餘不能多,我們不能接受\n\n45\n00:15:41,138 --> 00:15:55,049\n這樣子可以嗎署長那你們什麼時候要公告他們共同申請的模式所有應該公開的細項你們什麼時候要公告\n\n46\n00:15:56,358 --> 00:16:18,885\n我們應該在年底吧因為現在正在進行這些資料的審查那資訊公開的這個網站然後這個做法我們會在年底你們資料的審查其實是已經停留在20世紀我就不講了因為是下一個要質詢的問題因為時間有限但是我就要告訴你說依據第7條德將自主減碳計劃因核定事項定期公開你們\n\n47\n00:16:21,227 --> 00:16:32,909\n應公開全部所有的應公開事項這個東西你說年底年底會公開好那我們就等著看謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7264\t11250\t好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們次長有請次長委員好次長 你們的部長去出國嗎\n21259\t45253\t公務行程那根據氣候變遷這個因應法第29條還有你們環境部公布的執法的內容現在企業只要提出了自主減量計畫而且獲得你們的核定以後呢他們的碳費的費率可以享受到那種打折打到一折甚至打到骨折的最好的這個費率\n48235\t52456\t那如果企業選擇對其國際的SBT的這個血檢率碳費一噸是50元那如果是對其我國的NDC國家制定貢獻的技術標杆那一噸是100元\n65000\t66461\t那更關鍵的是這個高碳洩漏風險行業還可以適用排放量調整係數就是我剛才講的打一折打到骨折使最終實際繳納的碳費降到一噸只要10塊錢或者是20元\n82010\t108995\t對企業來講非常非常的便宜但是要申請這個自主減量的時候要填寫四個表格 四種資料第一個是事業的基本資料第二個是指定目標計畫然後第三個是減量的措施規劃第四個是年度指定的目標和查核點的規劃這個是個別企業去申報自主減量要填寫這四項資料 對不對\n111451\t128918\t那如果是這個共同申請模式要額外再填寫哪一種資料我可以請我們蔡組長說明嗎你不知道你是不是主管這個的我不是我不是督導這個業務的那沒關係你不用他說明我跟你報告就好了不敢同一個\n130339\t141308\t同一個法人下署事業加總排放量的資料表計算各年度預估排放量以及加總排放量這個署長 對吧是吧\n146479\t163456\t可是我現在要談的是你們這種自主減量計畫的資訊公開卻做得很爛就是說我們動輒你要知道這是一個非常嚴重的一個嚴肅的課題 署長\n165978\t182751\t當一個計劃可以為企業帶來數千萬甚至上億元的碳費減免的時候它的內容的嚴謹性、真實性還有可執行性要受到最嚴格的公共檢視而我現在討論的就是說那你們怎麼樣讓這份公共檢視的公開透明給打折了\n192518\t194840\t所以要問你們自主減量計畫為這個企業省下數千萬上億元你知道數千萬上億元的意思是何在嗎就是說這本來是企業的經營成本\n208030\t227478\t那你讓他省掉了這些費率然後他就可以把成本給外部化他到底是要用在這個自主減真的實質的減碳或者是丟給社會來成本外部化去擴大他的公司的利潤這是兩件事喔\n228158\t248303\t所以你們的制度設計是動見觀瞻啦而我今天就要請教你們的自主減量計畫的制度從誘因的設計到監督的機制到底是在鼓勵實質的減碳還是制度性在偷渡鼓勵投機票率假的 安寧\n250595\t267090\t市長你不知道沒關係 輸定在內那這個署長這個資訊公開非常不足因為自主減量計畫的管理辦法你們第七條講中央機關得將自主減碳計畫因核定事項定期公開為什麼是得\n269428\t273032\t他可以兌一棟五十戶一百戶到國際幣蓋他的碳費已經非常非常便宜了還可以打折打到骨折存十戶二十戶然後他到底做了什麼自主減量你們還不強制要求公開\n287668\t291130\t然後公開的項目還設限一般的個別企業的申報他必須要公開包括計畫邊界、目標年及年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率的級別、核定減量的措施還有查核的方式\n309941\t323378\t那同時呢如果是個別事業而言事業需同時達到各年度的溫室氣體排放量和逐年減量措施執行的進度都要標示出來才可以有所謂的優惠費率\n327315\t331057\t你到底是設定六個目標 你執行這個目標的進度怎麼樣我們大家看 合定了 有在做嗎這樣才可以適用優惠費率啊在這個資訊公開的設計上 你們在與共同申請就不一樣了\n346837\t350781\t共同申請的一間大企業通常共同申請的企業規模是大過於個別企業申請的規模的共同申請大企業裡面下屬的所有事業全部加總在一起一起申報一起申請\n366325\t369388\t然後在這裡面只需要公開查核總排放量剛剛公開這個然後大家就講如果沒有達到這個查核的總排放量的時候才會進一步查核各子公司的年度指定目標在資訊公開機制的設計上個別企業的申報跟共同申請的法人之間差太多 稍含\n393387\t406720\t單一企業獨立申請的時候所有資料都要公開但是多個事業共同子公司合在一起政府公司共同申請的時候只需要揭露那個年度指定的目標加總\n408061\t424029\t而不需要公開具體的減量措施也不需要公開查核的方式導致在共同申請的模式下 揭露的資訊透明度相當的低影響了政策的公平性和成效署長 你有什麼想法\n427798\t437884\t跟委員報告只要是我們碳費徵收對象的工廠那他提了自主減量計畫就必須要按照我們自主減剛剛委員提到的自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條來做資訊我現在在說什麼我現在在說的重點是個別企業申請跟共同申請\n447889\t461874\t為什麼資訊公開透明的內容差這麼多而我們知道個別企業的自主減量其實相對於共同申請的模式共同申請模式的企業是六大規模六大財團的結果是不透明然後被苛責的公共公開的這個接受檢視的項目是這麼久\n472538\t477121\t這樣讓大企業大財團嘛 我現在說是這樣啦不會 這個共同申請我們還是會要求他底下的每一個廠他要提出來的這些資訊我現在講的是公開給大家看啦 不是你要求啦我當然知道他申請的時候資料都要跟你們申請通通都要檢視啦 給你們啦我現在是人民要看公民要檢視啦\n497333\t499476\t動輒給他們幾千萬的省下他們的繳費上億元免納碳費不用交給全國人民一起來檢視嗎\n509036\t535136\t它的核心目標是鼓勵企業自主減碳而不是只有被動的繳納碳費繳少一點所以你擁有享有優惠的碳費的時候除了你們政府要建立嚴格的審查機制確保減碳行動的真實性和有效性以外不是在變相的減輕企業負擔削弱政策的效果我們要的是我們要的是\n536377\t541154\t公開透明 資訊揭露 我在問你資訊揭露的問題啦\n542543\t571866\t是跟委員報告我們現在進行的進度是正在受理這一些自主減量計劃的審查那接下來審查之後的資訊公開我想不管是這個共同申請或者是個別提出來的申請我們都會用同樣的方式來做資訊公開我現在要問妳 妳是作為一個署長嘛對個別申請跟共同申請所需要揭露的所有的內容都會完全一致一模一樣嗎是我們會接下來會用你目前沒有看到喔\n572886\t591931\t因為我們現在正在做這個受理審查的工作我現在要看到的是他們的指定目標基準年安全場排放計算基礎標竿指定血檢力計算全場排放活動數據減量措施成效說明減量措施預算經費\n594142\t612848\t還有這個目標年的污漬氣體逐年排放量他們的執行進度查核點的規劃通通會公開嗎是我們會共同申請跟個別申請在這個資訊公開的要求會是一樣的資訊公開是一樣是我講剛才念的那一些全部嗎還是一樣的精簡\n614657\t622781\t我們現在的資訊公開一定是按照我們現在的自主減量計畫辦法的第七條你的自主減量的辦法第七條怎麼講計畫編切目標年年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率級別核定減量措施及查核方式通通都會公開嗎全部嗎\n636809\t643133\t我們目前是按照這個條文來做這個規劃那會公開在這個自主減量計畫的我現在講的是你會不會全部都公開你不要這邊講那些會按照這個規定來我現在跟你講自主減量計畫的資訊完全揭露公開也可以避免企業票率讓社會大眾檢視企業的減碳承諾是否真實可信啊\n660143\t664804\t大家給你承諾這樣但是你資訊沒有公開給大家看只有你們內部看得到我們都看不到誰知道這個到底給他減的這一些成本他用來實質減碳的還是去擴大到他累積到他公司的利潤的累積為了賺更多錢還是真的投入到實質的減碳裡面我們為什麼要公開你知道嗎是為了幫你們政府\n687708\t690612\t有助於提高企業對外負責的壓力讓減排的承諾具體化而且揭露自主減量計畫有助於機構投資人掌握企業的碳排放情況\n703491\t711255\t減量的策略還有目標執行的進度強化企業的影響力你知道這種自主減量計畫當中企業需要計算個別減量措施及其對應的預估年稅減量而且加總算計出各年度溫室氣體排放量這些資訊可以評估不同產業的技術可行性和減排的能力\n729904\t756325\t要作為未來計算各排放源排放總量的基礎而且進而去制定合理的逐年總量的減排路徑所以我們就是這樣子你是省下這筆巨額的碳費是真的依據到實質的減碳行動上面而不是讓企業的財報上利潤不斷的累積所以我們在這裡署長制度設計上\n758499\t782331\t絕對不能允許共同申請的資訊揭露標準低於單一企業的申請民間團體已經很明確的跟你們講要公開每年的執行報告個別減量措施的預估年 血減量還有減量措施預算經費表等相關資訊署長你這裡到底有沒有辦法 我剛剛講的\n786713\t809846\t每年的執行報告個別減量的預估年稅減量還有減量措施預算經費表建置一個公開透明可供全民檢視的自主減量計畫申報平台給大家看可以嗎是這個我們本來在收費辦法裡面自主減量計畫管理辦法就有這樣子一個公開的一個要規定沒有我現在告訴你是本來是政府得\n816059\t835540\t對但是我們現在就是這個條文裡面的得公開的這些我們項目都會公開我現在告訴你說每年的執行報告會公開嗎會個別共同申請喔是個別減量措施的預估年稅減量會公開嗎會減量措施的預算經費表會公開嗎會\n838680\t855863\t我希望都全部公開因為公開資訊有助於讓大企業也投資者有股票上市公司投資者消費者都可以評估企業低碳轉型或清潔製程導入的速度和方向而且判斷它是不是符合政策目標\n856784\t880071\t作為投資和消費這一家大企業的依據然後建立起人民對他的信任而且讓如果使用再生能源使用率提升或燃煤鍋爐的淘汰進度這些資訊都攸關到企業減碳的績效而且影響到一般民眾的健康權益所以這個很重要\n881246\t881829\t我們希望我們給他這麼少一棟10顆20顆的碳費\n887625\t913081\t你為一間公司簽過的請問 簽過的請問 整頁的稅金匯率你到底有真的在做檢排嗎 我們要檢視不是只有政府在檢視 我們人民也要檢視所以今天在這裡 我先談到這裡公開透明 這個是引進公民監督 進而減少政府的壓力\n914332\t938249\t大家一起幫你看,政府不是施壓於政府而已這企業不是施壓於政府,壓力全民都扛著,大家一起看檢慶政府的壓力啊,有沒有,有啊所以我們絕對不允許這個經營成本丟給社會,然後他不減排,然後只有把稅金蓋起來,大家盈餘不能多,我們不能接受\n941138\t955049\t這樣子可以嗎 署長那你們什麼時候要公告他們共同申請的模式所有應該公開的細項你們什麼時候要公告\n956358\t978885\t我們應該在年底吧因為現在正在進行這些資料的審查那資訊公開的這個網站然後這個做法我們會在年底你們資料的審查其實是已經停留在20世紀我就不講了因為是下一個要質詢的問題因為時間有限但是我就要告訴你說依據第7條德將自主減碳計劃因核定事項定期公開你們\n981227\t992909\t應公開全部所有的應公開事項這個東西你說年底年底會公開好那我們就等著看謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們次長有請次長委員好次長 你們的部長去出國嗎\n公務行程那根據氣候變遷這個因應法第29條還有你們環境部公布的執法的內容現在企業只要提出了自主減量計畫而且獲得你們的核定以後呢他們的碳費的費率可以享受到那種打折打到一折甚至打到骨折的最好的這個費率\n那如果企業選擇對其國際的SBT的這個血檢率碳費一噸是50元那如果是對其我國的NDC國家制定貢獻的技術標杆那一噸是100元\n那更關鍵的是這個高碳洩漏風險行業還可以適用排放量調整係數就是我剛才講的打一折打到骨折使最終實際繳納的碳費降到一噸只要10塊錢或者是20元\n對企業來講非常非常的便宜但是要申請這個自主減量的時候要填寫四個表格 四種資料第一個是事業的基本資料第二個是指定目標計畫然後第三個是減量的措施規劃第四個是年度指定的目標和查核點的規劃這個是個別企業去申報自主減量要填寫這四項資料 對不對\n那如果是這個共同申請模式要額外再填寫哪一種資料我可以請我們蔡組長說明嗎你不知道你是不是主管這個的我不是我不是督導這個業務的那沒關係你不用他說明我跟你報告就好了不敢同一個\n同一個法人下署事業加總排放量的資料表計算各年度預估排放量以及加總排放量這個署長 對吧是吧\n可是我現在要談的是你們這種自主減量計畫的資訊公開卻做得很爛就是說我們動輒你要知道這是一個非常嚴重的一個嚴肅的課題 署長\n當一個計劃可以為企業帶來數千萬甚至上億元的碳費減免的時候它的內容的嚴謹性、真實性還有可執行性要受到最嚴格的公共檢視而我現在討論的就是說那你們怎麼樣讓這份公共檢視的公開透明給打折了\n所以要問你們自主減量計畫為這個企業省下數千萬上億元你知道數千萬上億元的意思是何在嗎就是說這本來是企業的經營成本\n那你讓他省掉了這些費率然後他就可以把成本給外部化他到底是要用在這個自主減真的實質的減碳或者是丟給社會來成本外部化去擴大他的公司的利潤這是兩件事喔\n所以你們的制度設計是動見觀瞻啦而我今天就要請教你們的自主減量計畫的制度從誘因的設計到監督的機制到底是在鼓勵實質的減碳還是制度性在偷渡鼓勵投機票率假的 安寧\n市長你不知道沒關係 輸定在內那這個署長這個資訊公開非常不足因為自主減量計畫的管理辦法你們第七條講中央機關得將自主減碳計畫因核定事項定期公開為什麼是得\n他可以兌一棟五十戶一百戶到國際幣蓋他的碳費已經非常非常便宜了還可以打折打到骨折存十戶二十戶然後他到底做了什麼自主減量你們還不強制要求公開\n然後公開的項目還設限一般的個別企業的申報他必須要公開包括計畫邊界、目標年及年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率的級別、核定減量的措施還有查核的方式\n那同時呢如果是個別事業而言事業需同時達到各年度的溫室氣體排放量和逐年減量措施執行的進度都要標示出來才可以有所謂的優惠費率\n你到底是設定六個目標 你執行這個目標的進度怎麼樣我們大家看 合定了 有在做嗎這樣才可以適用優惠費率啊在這個資訊公開的設計上 你們在與共同申請就不一樣了\n共同申請的一間大企業通常共同申請的企業規模是大過於個別企業申請的規模的共同申請大企業裡面下屬的所有事業全部加總在一起一起申報一起申請\n然後在這裡面只需要公開查核總排放量剛剛公開這個然後大家就講如果沒有達到這個查核的總排放量的時候才會進一步查核各子公司的年度指定目標在資訊公開機制的設計上個別企業的申報跟共同申請的法人之間差太多 稍含\n單一企業獨立申請的時候所有資料都要公開但是多個事業共同子公司合在一起政府公司共同申請的時候只需要揭露那個年度指定的目標加總\n而不需要公開具體的減量措施也不需要公開查核的方式導致在共同申請的模式下 揭露的資訊透明度相當的低影響了政策的公平性和成效署長 你有什麼想法\n跟委員報告只要是我們碳費徵收對象的工廠那他提了自主減量計畫就必須要按照我們自主減剛剛委員提到的自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條來做資訊我現在在說什麼我現在在說的重點是個別企業申請跟共同申請\n為什麼資訊公開透明的內容差這麼多而我們知道個別企業的自主減量其實相對於共同申請的模式共同申請模式的企業是六大規模六大財團的結果是不透明然後被苛責的公共公開的這個接受檢視的項目是這麼久\n這樣讓大企業大財團嘛 我現在說是這樣啦不會 這個共同申請我們還是會要求他底下的每一個廠他要提出來的這些資訊我現在講的是公開給大家看啦 不是你要求啦我當然知道他申請的時候資料都要跟你們申請通通都要檢視啦 給你們啦我現在是人民要看公民要檢視啦\n動輒給他們幾千萬的省下他們的繳費上億元免納碳費不用交給全國人民一起來檢視嗎\n它的核心目標是鼓勵企業自主減碳而不是只有被動的繳納碳費繳少一點所以你擁有享有優惠的碳費的時候除了你們政府要建立嚴格的審查機制確保減碳行動的真實性和有效性以外不是在變相的減輕企業負擔削弱政策的效果我們要的是我們要的是\n公開透明 資訊揭露 我在問你資訊揭露的問題啦\n是跟委員報告我們現在進行的進度是正在受理這一些自主減量計劃的審查那接下來審查之後的資訊公開我想不管是這個共同申請或者是個別提出來的申請我們都會用同樣的方式來做資訊公開我現在要問妳 妳是作為一個署長嘛對個別申請跟共同申請所需要揭露的所有的內容都會完全一致一模一樣嗎是我們會接下來會用你目前沒有看到喔\n因為我們現在正在做這個受理審查的工作我現在要看到的是他們的指定目標基準年安全場排放計算基礎標竿指定血檢力計算全場排放活動數據減量措施成效說明減量措施預算經費\n還有這個目標年的污漬氣體逐年排放量他們的執行進度查核點的規劃通通會公開嗎是我們會共同申請跟個別申請在這個資訊公開的要求會是一樣的資訊公開是一樣是我講剛才念的那一些全部嗎還是一樣的精簡\n我們現在的資訊公開一定是按照我們現在的自主減量計畫辦法的第七條你的自主減量的辦法第七條怎麼講計畫編切目標年年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率級別核定減量措施及查核方式通通都會公開嗎全部嗎\n我們目前是按照這個條文來做這個規劃那會公開在這個自主減量計畫的我現在講的是你會不會全部都公開你不要這邊講那些會按照這個規定來我現在跟你講自主減量計畫的資訊完全揭露公開也可以避免企業票率讓社會大眾檢視企業的減碳承諾是否真實可信啊\n大家給你承諾這樣但是你資訊沒有公開給大家看只有你們內部看得到我們都看不到誰知道這個到底給他減的這一些成本他用來實質減碳的還是去擴大到他累積到他公司的利潤的累積為了賺更多錢還是真的投入到實質的減碳裡面我們為什麼要公開你知道嗎是為了幫你們政府\n有助於提高企業對外負責的壓力讓減排的承諾具體化而且揭露自主減量計畫有助於機構投資人掌握企業的碳排放情況\n減量的策略還有目標執行的進度強化企業的影響力你知道這種自主減量計畫當中企業需要計算個別減量措施及其對應的預估年稅減量而且加總算計出各年度溫室氣體排放量這些資訊可以評估不同產業的技術可行性和減排的能力\n要作為未來計算各排放源排放總量的基礎而且進而去制定合理的逐年總量的減排路徑所以我們就是這樣子你是省下這筆巨額的碳費是真的依據到實質的減碳行動上面而不是讓企業的財報上利潤不斷的累積所以我們在這裡署長制度設計上\n絕對不能允許共同申請的資訊揭露標準低於單一企業的申請民間團體已經很明確的跟你們講要公開每年的執行報告個別減量措施的預估年 血減量還有減量措施預算經費表等相關資訊署長你這裡到底有沒有辦法 我剛剛講的\n每年的執行報告個別減量的預估年稅減量還有減量措施預算經費表建置一個公開透明可供全民檢視的自主減量計畫申報平台給大家看可以嗎是這個我們本來在收費辦法裡面自主減量計畫管理辦法就有這樣子一個公開的一個要規定沒有我現在告訴你是本來是政府得\n對但是我們現在就是這個條文裡面的得公開的這些我們項目都會公開我現在告訴你說每年的執行報告會公開嗎會個別共同申請喔是個別減量措施的預估年稅減量會公開嗎會減量措施的預算經費表會公開嗎會\n我希望都全部公開因為公開資訊有助於讓大企業也投資者有股票上市公司投資者消費者都可以評估企業低碳轉型或清潔製程導入的速度和方向而且判斷它是不是符合政策目標\n作為投資和消費這一家大企業的依據然後建立起人民對他的信任而且讓如果使用再生能源使用率提升或燃煤鍋爐的淘汰進度這些資訊都攸關到企業減碳的績效而且影響到一般民眾的健康權益所以這個很重要\n我們希望我們給他這麼少一棟10顆20顆的碳費\n你為一間公司簽過的請問 簽過的請問 整頁的稅金匯率你到底有真的在做檢排嗎 我們要檢視不是只有政府在檢視 我們人民也要檢視所以今天在這裡 我先談到這裡公開透明 這個是引進公民監督 進而減少政府的壓力\n大家一起幫你看,政府不是施壓於政府而已這企業不是施壓於政府,壓力全民都扛著,大家一起看檢慶政府的壓力啊,有沒有,有啊所以我們絕對不允許這個經營成本丟給社會,然後他不減排,然後只有把稅金蓋起來,大家盈餘不能多,我們不能接受\n這樣子可以嗎 署長那你們什麼時候要公告他們共同申請的模式所有應該公開的細項你們什麼時候要公告\n我們應該在年底吧因為現在正在進行這些資料的審查那資訊公開的這個網站然後這個做法我們會在年底你們資料的審查其實是已經停留在20世紀我就不講了因為是下一個要質詢的問題因為時間有限但是我就要告訴你說依據第7條德將自主減碳計劃因核定事項定期公開你們\n應公開全部所有的應公開事項這個東西你說年底年底會公開好那我們就等著看謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.264 --> 00:11.250\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們次長有請次長委員好次長你們的部長去出國嗎\n\n00:21.259 --> 00:45.253\n公務行程那根據氣候變遷這個因應法第29條還有你們環境部公布的執法的內容現在企業只要提出了自主減量計畫而且獲得你們的核定以後呢他們的碳費的費率可以享受到那種打折打到一折甚至打到骨折的最好的這個費率\n\n00:48.235 --> 00:52.456\n那如果企業選擇對其國際的SBT的這個血檢率碳費一噸是50元那如果是對其我國的NDC國家制定貢獻的技術標杆那一噸是100元\n\n01:05.000 --> 01:06.461\n那更關鍵的是這個高碳洩漏風險行業還可以適用排放量調整係數就是我剛才講的打一折打到骨折使最終實際繳納的碳費降到一噸只要10塊錢或者是20元\n\n01:22.010 --> 01:48.995\n對企業來講非常非常的便宜但是要申請這個自主減量的時候要填寫四個表格四種資料第一個是事業的基本資料第二個是指定目標計畫然後第三個是減量的措施規劃第四個是年度指定的目標和查核點的規劃這個是個別企業去申報自主減量要填寫這四項資料對不對\n\n01:51.451 --> 02:08.918\n那如果是這個共同申請模式要額外再填寫哪一種資料我可以請我們蔡組長說明嗎你不知道你是不是主管這個的我不是我不是督導這個業務的那沒關係你不用他說明我跟你報告就好了不敢同一個\n\n02:10.339 --> 02:21.308\n同一個法人下署事業加總排放量的資料表計算各年度預估排放量以及加總排放量這個署長對吧是吧\n\n02:26.479 --> 02:43.456\n可是我現在要談的是你們這種自主減量計畫的資訊公開卻做得很爛就是說我們動輒你要知道這是一個非常嚴重的一個嚴肅的課題署長\n\n02:45.978 --> 03:02.751\n當一個計劃可以為企業帶來數千萬甚至上億元的碳費減免的時候它的內容的嚴謹性、真實性還有可執行性要受到最嚴格的公共檢視而我現在討論的就是說那你們怎麼樣讓這份公共檢視的公開透明給打折了\n\n03:12.518 --> 03:14.840\n所以要問你們自主減量計畫為這個企業省下數千萬上億元你知道數千萬上億元的意思是何在嗎就是說這本來是企業的經營成本\n\n03:28.030 --> 03:47.478\n那你讓他省掉了這些費率然後他就可以把成本給外部化他到底是要用在這個自主減真的實質的減碳或者是丟給社會來成本外部化去擴大他的公司的利潤這是兩件事喔\n\n03:48.158 --> 04:08.303\n所以你們的制度設計是動見觀瞻啦而我今天就要請教你們的自主減量計畫的制度從誘因的設計到監督的機制到底是在鼓勵實質的減碳還是制度性在偷渡鼓勵投機票率假的安寧\n\n04:10.595 --> 04:27.090\n市長你不知道沒關係輸定在內那這個署長這個資訊公開非常不足因為自主減量計畫的管理辦法你們第七條講中央機關得將自主減碳計畫因核定事項定期公開為什麼是得\n\n04:29.428 --> 04:33.032\n他可以兌一棟五十戶一百戶到國際幣蓋他的碳費已經非常非常便宜了還可以打折打到骨折存十戶二十戶然後他到底做了什麼自主減量你們還不強制要求公開\n\n04:47.668 --> 04:51.130\n然後公開的項目還設限一般的個別企業的申報他必須要公開包括計畫邊界、目標年及年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率的級別、核定減量的措施還有查核的方式\n\n05:09.941 --> 05:23.378\n那同時呢如果是個別事業而言事業需同時達到各年度的溫室氣體排放量和逐年減量措施執行的進度都要標示出來才可以有所謂的優惠費率\n\n05:27.315 --> 05:31.057\n你到底是設定六個目標你執行這個目標的進度怎麼樣我們大家看合定了有在做嗎這樣才可以適用優惠費率啊在這個資訊公開的設計上你們在與共同申請就不一樣了\n\n05:46.837 --> 05:50.781\n共同申請的一間大企業通常共同申請的企業規模是大過於個別企業申請的規模的共同申請大企業裡面下屬的所有事業全部加總在一起一起申報一起申請\n\n06:06.325 --> 06:09.388\n然後在這裡面只需要公開查核總排放量剛剛公開這個然後大家就講如果沒有達到這個查核的總排放量的時候才會進一步查核各子公司的年度指定目標在資訊公開機制的設計上個別企業的申報跟共同申請的法人之間差太多稍含\n\n06:33.387 --> 06:46.720\n單一企業獨立申請的時候所有資料都要公開但是多個事業共同子公司合在一起政府公司共同申請的時候只需要揭露那個年度指定的目標加總\n\n06:48.061 --> 07:04.029\n而不需要公開具體的減量措施也不需要公開查核的方式導致在共同申請的模式下揭露的資訊透明度相當的低影響了政策的公平性和成效署長你有什麼想法\n\n07:07.798 --> 07:17.884\n跟委員報告只要是我們碳費徵收對象的工廠那他提了自主減量計畫就必須要按照我們自主減剛剛委員提到的自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條來做資訊我現在在說什麼我現在在說的重點是個別企業申請跟共同申請\n\n07:27.889 --> 07:41.874\n為什麼資訊公開透明的內容差這麼多而我們知道個別企業的自主減量其實相對於共同申請的模式共同申請模式的企業是六大規模六大財團的結果是不透明然後被苛責的公共公開的這個接受檢視的項目是這麼久\n\n07:52.538 --> 07:57.121\n這樣讓大企業大財團嘛我現在說是這樣啦不會這個共同申請我們還是會要求他底下的每一個廠他要提出來的這些資訊我現在講的是公開給大家看啦不是你要求啦我當然知道他申請的時候資料都要跟你們申請通通都要檢視啦給你們啦我現在是人民要看公民要檢視啦\n\n08:17.333 --> 08:19.476\n動輒給他們幾千萬的省下他們的繳費上億元免納碳費不用交給全國人民一起來檢視嗎\n\n08:29.036 --> 08:55.136\n它的核心目標是鼓勵企業自主減碳而不是只有被動的繳納碳費繳少一點所以你擁有享有優惠的碳費的時候除了你們政府要建立嚴格的審查機制確保減碳行動的真實性和有效性以外不是在變相的減輕企業負擔削弱政策的效果我們要的是我們要的是\n\n08:56.377 --> 09:01.154\n公開透明資訊揭露我在問你資訊揭露的問題啦\n\n09:02.543 --> 09:31.866\n是跟委員報告我們現在進行的進度是正在受理這一些自主減量計劃的審查那接下來審查之後的資訊公開我想不管是這個共同申請或者是個別提出來的申請我們都會用同樣的方式來做資訊公開我現在要問妳妳是作為一個署長嘛對個別申請跟共同申請所需要揭露的所有的內容都會完全一致一模一樣嗎是我們會接下來會用你目前沒有看到喔\n\n09:32.886 --> 09:51.931\n因為我們現在正在做這個受理審查的工作我現在要看到的是他們的指定目標基準年安全場排放計算基礎標竿指定血檢力計算全場排放活動數據減量措施成效說明減量措施預算經費\n\n09:54.142 --> 10:12.848\n還有這個目標年的污漬氣體逐年排放量他們的執行進度查核點的規劃通通會公開嗎是我們會共同申請跟個別申請在這個資訊公開的要求會是一樣的資訊公開是一樣是我講剛才念的那一些全部嗎還是一樣的精簡\n\n10:14.657 --> 10:22.781\n我們現在的資訊公開一定是按照我們現在的自主減量計畫辦法的第七條你的自主減量的辦法第七條怎麼講計畫編切目標年年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率級別核定減量措施及查核方式通通都會公開嗎全部嗎\n\n10:36.809 --> 10:43.133\n我們目前是按照這個條文來做這個規劃那會公開在這個自主減量計畫的我現在講的是你會不會全部都公開你不要這邊講那些會按照這個規定來我現在跟你講自主減量計畫的資訊完全揭露公開也可以避免企業票率讓社會大眾檢視企業的減碳承諾是否真實可信啊\n\n11:00.143 --> 11:04.804\n大家給你承諾這樣但是你資訊沒有公開給大家看只有你們內部看得到我們都看不到誰知道這個到底給他減的這一些成本他用來實質減碳的還是去擴大到他累積到他公司的利潤的累積為了賺更多錢還是真的投入到實質的減碳裡面我們為什麼要公開你知道嗎是為了幫你們政府\n\n11:27.708 --> 11:30.612\n有助於提高企業對外負責的壓力讓減排的承諾具體化而且揭露自主減量計畫有助於機構投資人掌握企業的碳排放情況\n\n11:43.491 --> 11:51.255\n減量的策略還有目標執行的進度強化企業的影響力你知道這種自主減量計畫當中企業需要計算個別減量措施及其對應的預估年稅減量而且加總算計出各年度溫室氣體排放量這些資訊可以評估不同產業的技術可行性和減排的能力\n\n12:09.904 --> 12:36.325\n要作為未來計算各排放源排放總量的基礎而且進而去制定合理的逐年總量的減排路徑所以我們就是這樣子你是省下這筆巨額的碳費是真的依據到實質的減碳行動上面而不是讓企業的財報上利潤不斷的累積所以我們在這裡署長制度設計上\n\n12:38.499 --> 13:02.331\n絕對不能允許共同申請的資訊揭露標準低於單一企業的申請民間團體已經很明確的跟你們講要公開每年的執行報告個別減量措施的預估年血減量還有減量措施預算經費表等相關資訊署長你這裡到底有沒有辦法我剛剛講的\n\n13:06.713 --> 13:29.846\n每年的執行報告個別減量的預估年稅減量還有減量措施預算經費表建置一個公開透明可供全民檢視的自主減量計畫申報平台給大家看可以嗎是這個我們本來在收費辦法裡面自主減量計畫管理辦法就有這樣子一個公開的一個要規定沒有我現在告訴你是本來是政府得\n\n13:36.059 --> 13:55.540\n對但是我們現在就是這個條文裡面的得公開的這些我們項目都會公開我現在告訴你說每年的執行報告會公開嗎會個別共同申請喔是個別減量措施的預估年稅減量會公開嗎會減量措施的預算經費表會公開嗎會\n\n13:58.680 --> 14:15.863\n我希望都全部公開因為公開資訊有助於讓大企業也投資者有股票上市公司投資者消費者都可以評估企業低碳轉型或清潔製程導入的速度和方向而且判斷它是不是符合政策目標\n\n14:16.784 --> 14:40.071\n作為投資和消費這一家大企業的依據然後建立起人民對他的信任而且讓如果使用再生能源使用率提升或燃煤鍋爐的淘汰進度這些資訊都攸關到企業減碳的績效而且影響到一般民眾的健康權益所以這個很重要\n\n14:41.246 --> 14:41.829\n我們希望我們給他這麼少一棟10顆20顆的碳費\n\n14:47.625 --> 15:13.081\n你為一間公司簽過的請問簽過的請問整頁的稅金匯率你到底有真的在做檢排嗎我們要檢視不是只有政府在檢視我們人民也要檢視所以今天在這裡我先談到這裡公開透明這個是引進公民監督進而減少政府的壓力\n\n15:14.332 --> 15:38.249\n大家一起幫你看,政府不是施壓於政府而已這企業不是施壓於政府,壓力全民都扛著,大家一起看檢慶政府的壓力啊,有沒有,有啊所以我們絕對不允許這個經營成本丟給社會,然後他不減排,然後只有把稅金蓋起來,大家盈餘不能多,我們不能接受\n\n15:41.138 --> 15:55.049\n這樣子可以嗎署長那你們什麼時候要公告他們共同申請的模式所有應該公開的細項你們什麼時候要公告\n\n15:56.358 --> 16:18.885\n我們應該在年底吧因為現在正在進行這些資料的審查那資訊公開的這個網站然後這個做法我們會在年底你們資料的審查其實是已經停留在20世紀我就不講了因為是下一個要質詢的問題因為時間有限但是我就要告訴你說依據第7條德將自主減碳計劃因核定事項定期公開你們\n\n16:21.227 --> 16:32.909\n應公開全部所有的應公開事項這個東西你說年底年底會公開好那我們就等著看謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.264,"end":11.25,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們次長有請次長委員好次長 你們的部長去出國嗎"},{"start":21.259,"end":45.253,"text":"公務行程那根據氣候變遷這個因應法第29條還有你們環境部公布的執法的內容現在企業只要提出了自主減量計畫而且獲得你們的核定以後呢他們的碳費的費率可以享受到那種打折打到一折甚至打到骨折的最好的這個費率"},{"start":48.235,"end":52.456,"text":"那如果企業選擇對其國際的SBT的這個血檢率碳費一噸是50元那如果是對其我國的NDC國家制定貢獻的技術標杆那一噸是100元"},{"start":65,"end":66.461,"text":"那更關鍵的是這個高碳洩漏風險行業還可以適用排放量調整係數就是我剛才講的打一折打到骨折使最終實際繳納的碳費降到一噸只要10塊錢或者是20元"},{"start":82.01,"end":108.995,"text":"對企業來講非常非常的便宜但是要申請這個自主減量的時候要填寫四個表格 四種資料第一個是事業的基本資料第二個是指定目標計畫然後第三個是減量的措施規劃第四個是年度指定的目標和查核點的規劃這個是個別企業去申報自主減量要填寫這四項資料 對不對"},{"start":111.451,"end":128.918,"text":"那如果是這個共同申請模式要額外再填寫哪一種資料我可以請我們蔡組長說明嗎你不知道你是不是主管這個的我不是我不是督導這個業務的那沒關係你不用他說明我跟你報告就好了不敢同一個"},{"start":130.339,"end":141.308,"text":"同一個法人下署事業加總排放量的資料表計算各年度預估排放量以及加總排放量這個署長 對吧是吧"},{"start":146.479,"end":163.456,"text":"可是我現在要談的是你們這種自主減量計畫的資訊公開卻做得很爛就是說我們動輒你要知道這是一個非常嚴重的一個嚴肅的課題 署長"},{"start":165.978,"end":182.751,"text":"當一個計劃可以為企業帶來數千萬甚至上億元的碳費減免的時候它的內容的嚴謹性、真實性還有可執行性要受到最嚴格的公共檢視而我現在討論的就是說那你們怎麼樣讓這份公共檢視的公開透明給打折了"},{"start":192.518,"end":194.84,"text":"所以要問你們自主減量計畫為這個企業省下數千萬上億元你知道數千萬上億元的意思是何在嗎就是說這本來是企業的經營成本"},{"start":208.03,"end":227.478,"text":"那你讓他省掉了這些費率然後他就可以把成本給外部化他到底是要用在這個自主減真的實質的減碳或者是丟給社會來成本外部化去擴大他的公司的利潤這是兩件事喔"},{"start":228.158,"end":248.303,"text":"所以你們的制度設計是動見觀瞻啦而我今天就要請教你們的自主減量計畫的制度從誘因的設計到監督的機制到底是在鼓勵實質的減碳還是制度性在偷渡鼓勵投機票率假的 安寧"},{"start":250.595,"end":267.09,"text":"市長你不知道沒關係 輸定在內那這個署長這個資訊公開非常不足因為自主減量計畫的管理辦法你們第七條講中央機關得將自主減碳計畫因核定事項定期公開為什麼是得"},{"start":269.428,"end":273.032,"text":"他可以兌一棟五十戶一百戶到國際幣蓋他的碳費已經非常非常便宜了還可以打折打到骨折存十戶二十戶然後他到底做了什麼自主減量你們還不強制要求公開"},{"start":287.668,"end":291.13,"text":"然後公開的項目還設限一般的個別企業的申報他必須要公開包括計畫邊界、目標年及年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率的級別、核定減量的措施還有查核的方式"},{"start":309.941,"end":323.378,"text":"那同時呢如果是個別事業而言事業需同時達到各年度的溫室氣體排放量和逐年減量措施執行的進度都要標示出來才可以有所謂的優惠費率"},{"start":327.315,"end":331.057,"text":"你到底是設定六個目標 你執行這個目標的進度怎麼樣我們大家看 合定了 有在做嗎這樣才可以適用優惠費率啊在這個資訊公開的設計上 你們在與共同申請就不一樣了"},{"start":346.837,"end":350.781,"text":"共同申請的一間大企業通常共同申請的企業規模是大過於個別企業申請的規模的共同申請大企業裡面下屬的所有事業全部加總在一起一起申報一起申請"},{"start":366.325,"end":369.388,"text":"然後在這裡面只需要公開查核總排放量剛剛公開這個然後大家就講如果沒有達到這個查核的總排放量的時候才會進一步查核各子公司的年度指定目標在資訊公開機制的設計上個別企業的申報跟共同申請的法人之間差太多 稍含"},{"start":393.387,"end":406.72,"text":"單一企業獨立申請的時候所有資料都要公開但是多個事業共同子公司合在一起政府公司共同申請的時候只需要揭露那個年度指定的目標加總"},{"start":408.061,"end":424.029,"text":"而不需要公開具體的減量措施也不需要公開查核的方式導致在共同申請的模式下 揭露的資訊透明度相當的低影響了政策的公平性和成效署長 你有什麼想法"},{"start":427.798,"end":437.884,"text":"跟委員報告只要是我們碳費徵收對象的工廠那他提了自主減量計畫就必須要按照我們自主減剛剛委員提到的自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條來做資訊我現在在說什麼我現在在說的重點是個別企業申請跟共同申請"},{"start":447.889,"end":461.874,"text":"為什麼資訊公開透明的內容差這麼多而我們知道個別企業的自主減量其實相對於共同申請的模式共同申請模式的企業是六大規模六大財團的結果是不透明然後被苛責的公共公開的這個接受檢視的項目是這麼久"},{"start":472.538,"end":477.121,"text":"這樣讓大企業大財團嘛 我現在說是這樣啦不會 這個共同申請我們還是會要求他底下的每一個廠他要提出來的這些資訊我現在講的是公開給大家看啦 不是你要求啦我當然知道他申請的時候資料都要跟你們申請通通都要檢視啦 給你們啦我現在是人民要看公民要檢視啦"},{"start":497.333,"end":499.476,"text":"動輒給他們幾千萬的省下他們的繳費上億元免納碳費不用交給全國人民一起來檢視嗎"},{"start":509.036,"end":535.136,"text":"它的核心目標是鼓勵企業自主減碳而不是只有被動的繳納碳費繳少一點所以你擁有享有優惠的碳費的時候除了你們政府要建立嚴格的審查機制確保減碳行動的真實性和有效性以外不是在變相的減輕企業負擔削弱政策的效果我們要的是我們要的是"},{"start":536.377,"end":541.154,"text":"公開透明 資訊揭露 我在問你資訊揭露的問題啦"},{"start":542.543,"end":571.866,"text":"是跟委員報告我們現在進行的進度是正在受理這一些自主減量計劃的審查那接下來審查之後的資訊公開我想不管是這個共同申請或者是個別提出來的申請我們都會用同樣的方式來做資訊公開我現在要問妳 妳是作為一個署長嘛對個別申請跟共同申請所需要揭露的所有的內容都會完全一致一模一樣嗎是我們會接下來會用你目前沒有看到喔"},{"start":572.886,"end":591.931,"text":"因為我們現在正在做這個受理審查的工作我現在要看到的是他們的指定目標基準年安全場排放計算基礎標竿指定血檢力計算全場排放活動數據減量措施成效說明減量措施預算經費"},{"start":594.142,"end":612.848,"text":"還有這個目標年的污漬氣體逐年排放量他們的執行進度查核點的規劃通通會公開嗎是我們會共同申請跟個別申請在這個資訊公開的要求會是一樣的資訊公開是一樣是我講剛才念的那一些全部嗎還是一樣的精簡"},{"start":614.657,"end":622.781,"text":"我們現在的資訊公開一定是按照我們現在的自主減量計畫辦法的第七條你的自主減量的辦法第七條怎麼講計畫編切目標年年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率級別核定減量措施及查核方式通通都會公開嗎全部嗎"},{"start":636.809,"end":643.133,"text":"我們目前是按照這個條文來做這個規劃那會公開在這個自主減量計畫的我現在講的是你會不會全部都公開你不要這邊講那些會按照這個規定來我現在跟你講自主減量計畫的資訊完全揭露公開也可以避免企業票率讓社會大眾檢視企業的減碳承諾是否真實可信啊"},{"start":660.143,"end":664.804,"text":"大家給你承諾這樣但是你資訊沒有公開給大家看只有你們內部看得到我們都看不到誰知道這個到底給他減的這一些成本他用來實質減碳的還是去擴大到他累積到他公司的利潤的累積為了賺更多錢還是真的投入到實質的減碳裡面我們為什麼要公開你知道嗎是為了幫你們政府"},{"start":687.708,"end":690.612,"text":"有助於提高企業對外負責的壓力讓減排的承諾具體化而且揭露自主減量計畫有助於機構投資人掌握企業的碳排放情況"},{"start":703.491,"end":711.255,"text":"減量的策略還有目標執行的進度強化企業的影響力你知道這種自主減量計畫當中企業需要計算個別減量措施及其對應的預估年稅減量而且加總算計出各年度溫室氣體排放量這些資訊可以評估不同產業的技術可行性和減排的能力"},{"start":729.904,"end":756.325,"text":"要作為未來計算各排放源排放總量的基礎而且進而去制定合理的逐年總量的減排路徑所以我們就是這樣子你是省下這筆巨額的碳費是真的依據到實質的減碳行動上面而不是讓企業的財報上利潤不斷的累積所以我們在這裡署長制度設計上"},{"start":758.499,"end":782.331,"text":"絕對不能允許共同申請的資訊揭露標準低於單一企業的申請民間團體已經很明確的跟你們講要公開每年的執行報告個別減量措施的預估年 血減量還有減量措施預算經費表等相關資訊署長你這裡到底有沒有辦法 我剛剛講的"},{"start":786.713,"end":809.846,"text":"每年的執行報告個別減量的預估年稅減量還有減量措施預算經費表建置一個公開透明可供全民檢視的自主減量計畫申報平台給大家看可以嗎是這個我們本來在收費辦法裡面自主減量計畫管理辦法就有這樣子一個公開的一個要規定沒有我現在告訴你是本來是政府得"},{"start":816.059,"end":835.54,"text":"對但是我們現在就是這個條文裡面的得公開的這些我們項目都會公開我現在告訴你說每年的執行報告會公開嗎會個別共同申請喔是個別減量措施的預估年稅減量會公開嗎會減量措施的預算經費表會公開嗎會"},{"start":838.68,"end":855.863,"text":"我希望都全部公開因為公開資訊有助於讓大企業也投資者有股票上市公司投資者消費者都可以評估企業低碳轉型或清潔製程導入的速度和方向而且判斷它是不是符合政策目標"},{"start":856.784,"end":880.071,"text":"作為投資和消費這一家大企業的依據然後建立起人民對他的信任而且讓如果使用再生能源使用率提升或燃煤鍋爐的淘汰進度這些資訊都攸關到企業減碳的績效而且影響到一般民眾的健康權益所以這個很重要"},{"start":881.246,"end":881.829,"text":"我們希望我們給他這麼少一棟10顆20顆的碳費"},{"start":887.625,"end":913.081,"text":"你為一間公司簽過的請問 簽過的請問 整頁的稅金匯率你到底有真的在做檢排嗎 我們要檢視不是只有政府在檢視 我們人民也要檢視所以今天在這裡 我先談到這裡公開透明 這個是引進公民監督 進而減少政府的壓力"},{"start":914.332,"end":938.249,"text":"大家一起幫你看,政府不是施壓於政府而已這企業不是施壓於政府,壓力全民都扛著,大家一起看檢慶政府的壓力啊,有沒有,有啊所以我們絕對不允許這個經營成本丟給社會,然後他不減排,然後只有把稅金蓋起來,大家盈餘不能多,我們不能接受"},{"start":941.138,"end":955.049,"text":"這樣子可以嗎 署長那你們什麼時候要公告他們共同申請的模式所有應該公開的細項你們什麼時候要公告"},{"start":956.358,"end":978.885,"text":"我們應該在年底吧因為現在正在進行這些資料的審查那資訊公開的這個網站然後這個做法我們會在年底你們資料的審查其實是已經停留在20世紀我就不講了因為是下一個要質詢的問題因為時間有限但是我就要告訴你說依據第7條德將自主減碳計劃因核定事項定期公開你們"},{"start":981.227,"end":992.909,"text":"應公開全部所有的應公開事項這個東西你說年底年底會公開好那我們就等著看謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時8分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["沈次長志修：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：次長，你們的部長出國嘛！"],["沈次長志修：公務行程。"],["林委員淑芬：根據氣候變遷因應法第二十九條以及環境部公布的子法內容，現在企業只要提出自主減量計畫，而且獲得你們的核定之後，他們的碳費費率可以享受打到一折，甚至打到骨折的最惠費率，如果企業選擇對齊國際的SBT削減率，碳費一噸是50元；如果是對齊我國的NDC國家自訂貢獻技術標竿，一噸是100元；更關鍵的是，高碳洩漏風險行業還可以適用排放量調整係數，就是我剛才講的打一折、打到骨折，使最終實際繳納的碳費降到一噸只要10元或是20元，對企業來講，這是非常非常非常的便宜，但是他要申請自主減量的時候，必須填寫四個表格、四種資料，第一個是事業的基本資料，第二個是指定目標計畫，第三個是減量的措施規劃，第四個是年度指定的目標和查核點的規劃。以上是個別企業申報自主減量要填寫的4項資料，對不對？如果是共同申請模式，要額外再填寫哪一種資料？"],["沈次長志修：可以請蔡署長說明嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：你不知道，你是不是主管這個的？"],["沈次長志修：我不是督導這個業務的。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那沒關係，你不用說明，我跟你報告就好了。"],["沈次長志修：不敢。"],["林委員淑芬：同一個法人下屬事業加總排放量的資料表，計算各年度預估排放量及加總排放量，署長，對吧？是吧？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員淑芬：可是我現在要談的是，你們這種自主減量計畫的資訊公開卻做得很爛。署長，你要知道，這是一個非常嚴肅的課題，當一個計畫可以為企業帶來數千萬、甚至上億元碳費減免的時候，其內容的嚴謹性、真實性及可執行性要受到最嚴格的公共檢視，而我現在討論的就是你們怎麼樣讓這份公共檢視的公開透明給打折了，所以我要問你們，自主減量計畫為企業省掉數千萬、上億元，你知道數千萬、上億元的意思何在嗎？就是這本來是企業的經營成本，你讓它省掉了這些費率，它就可以把成本給外部化，它到底是要用在真的實質減碳，或者是丟給社會，讓成本外部化，去擴大公司的利潤？這是兩件事，所以你們的制度設計是動見觀瞻，我今天就要請教，你們的自主減量計畫制度從誘因的設計到監督的機制，到底是在鼓勵實質的減碳，還是制度性地偷渡、鼓勵投機漂綠、玩假的？","次長，你不知道不要緊，署長在。署長，資訊公開非常不足，因為自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條第二項講到：「中央主管機關得定期將前項核定事項公開……」，為什麼是「得」？跟國際比起來，它的碳費已經非常非常便宜了，還可以從一噸50元、100元，打折打到骨折，剩下10元、20元，然後它到底做了什麼自主減量，你們不強制要求公開，而且公開的項目還設限。一般的個別企業申報必須公開包括計畫邊界、目標年指定目標及年度指定目標、執行期間、優惠費率的級別、核定之減量措施及查核方式，同時，如果是個別事業，事業須同時達到各年度的溫室氣體排放量和逐年減量措施執行的進度都要標示出來，才可以有所謂的優惠費率。也就是說，他們要把到底設定多少目標、執行這個目標的進度怎麼樣給我們看了、核定了，瞭解他們有沒有在做，這樣才可以適用優惠費率。","然後在資訊公開的設計上，你們的個別申請跟共同申請就不一樣了。通常共同申請的企業規模大過於個別企業申請的規模，共同申請是大企業裡面下屬的所有事業全部加總，一起申報、一起申請，在這裡面只需要公開查核總排放量，如果沒有達到查核的總排放量時，才會進一步查核各子公司的年度指定目標。在資訊公開機制的設計上，個別企業的申報跟共同申請的法人之間差太多、太離譜，單一企業獨立申請的時候，所有資料都要公開，但是多個事業、子公司合在母公司一起共同申請的時候，只需要揭露那個年度指定的目標加總，而不需要公開具體的減量措施，也不需要公開查核的方式，導致在共同申請的模式下，揭露資訊的透明度相當低，影響了政策的公平性及成效。署長，你有什麼講法？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，只要是我們碳費徵收對象的工廠，其所提的自主減量計畫就必須按照剛剛委員提到的自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條來做資訊公開……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在說什麼？我現在說的重點是，個別企業申請跟共同申請為什麼資訊公開透明的內容差這麼多？我們知道個別企業的自主減量其實相對於共同申請的模式，共同申請模式的企業是多大規模、多大的財團，結果其資訊公開不透明，被課責的公共公開資訊、接受檢視的項目這麼少，這樣掩護大企業、大財團，我現在講的是這樣。"],["蔡署長玲儀：不會……"],["林委員淑芬：什麼不會？"],["蔡署長玲儀：這個共同申請，我們還是會要求它底下每一個廠要提出來的這些資訊……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在講的是的公開給大家看，不是你要求啦！我當然知道它申請的時候，資料統統都要給你們檢視，我現在講的是人民要看、公民要檢視！動輒給他們省下幾千萬、上億元繳交的碳費，不用交給全國人民一起來檢視嗎？它的核心目標是鼓勵企業自主減碳，而不是只有被動地繳納少一點的碳費。所以享有優惠碳費的時候，除了政府要建立嚴格的審查機制，確保減碳行動的真實性和有效性以外，不是在變相地減輕企業負擔、削弱政策的效果，我們要的是公開透明、資訊揭露，我在問你資訊揭露的問題。"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，我們現在進行的進度是正在受理這些自主減量計畫的審查，接下來審查之後的資訊公開，我想不管是共同申請或者是個別提出來的申請，我們都會用同樣的方式來做資訊公開。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你，作為一個署長，個別申請跟共同申請所需要揭露的所有內容都會完全一致、一模一樣嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，我們接下來會用這樣的方式辦理……"],["林委員淑芬：目前沒有看到喔。"],["蔡署長玲儀：因為我們現在正在做受理審查的工作……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要看到的是，他們的指定目標、基準年安全廠排放計算、技術標竿、指定削減率計算、全廠排放活動數據、減量措施成效說明、減量措施預算經費、目標年溫室氣體逐年排放量、執行進度、查核點的規劃統統會公開嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我們對共同申請跟個別申請的資訊公開要求會是一樣的。"],["林委員淑芬：資訊公開一樣是我講的剛才那些全部嗎？還是一樣地精簡？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我們現在的資訊公開一定是按照自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條來辦理。"],["林委員淑芬：你的自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條怎麼講？計畫邊界、目標年指定目標及年度指定目標、執行期間、優惠費率級別、核定之減量措施及查核方式，統統都會公開嗎？全部嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我們目前是按照這個條文來做規劃，會公開在自主減量計畫的網站……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在假設你會不會全部都公開，你不要講那些有的沒有的……"],["蔡署長玲儀：會按照這個規定來做公開。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你講，自主減量計畫的資訊完全揭露、公開，也可以避免企業漂綠，讓社會大眾檢視企業的減碳承諾是否真實可信，不然它承諾這樣，但是資訊沒有公開給大家看，只有你們內部看得到，我們都看不到，誰知道到底給它減的成本是用來實質減碳了，還是去擴大公司的利潤累積；是為了賺更多的錢，還是真正投入到實質的減碳裡面？我們為什麼要求公開，你知道嗎？是為了幫你們政府，有助於提高企業對外負責的壓力，讓減排的承諾具體化，而且揭露自主減量計畫有助於機構投資人掌握企業的碳排放情況、減量的策略及目標、執行進度，強化企業影響力，你知道在這種自主減量計畫當中，企業需要計算個別減量措施及其對應的預估年削減量，而且加總計算出各年度溫室氣體排放量，這些資訊可以評估不同產業的技術可行性和減排的能力，要作為未來計算各排放源排放總量的基礎，進而制定合理的逐年總量減排路徑。所以你省下這筆巨額的碳費，是真的要挹注到實質的減碳行動上面，而不是讓企業財報上的利潤不斷累積。所以署長，在制度設計上，絕對不能允許共同申請的資訊揭露標準低於單一企業的申請，民間團體已經很明確地跟你們講，要公開每年的執行報告、個別減量措施的預估年削減量，還有減量措施預算經費表等相關資訊，署長，你這裡到底有沒有辦法？我剛剛講的每年的執行報告、個別減量的預估年削減量還有減量措施預算經費表，建置一個公開、透明、可供全民檢視的自主減量計畫申報平臺給大家看，可以嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，這個我們本來在自主減量計畫管理辦法就有規定要公開……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，我現在告訴你本來是「政府『得』」。"],["蔡署長玲儀：對，在這個條文裡面得公開的這些項目，我們都會公開。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問你的是每年的執行報告會公開嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：會。"],["林委員淑芬：共同申請喔！"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員淑芬：個別減量措施的預估年削減量會公開嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：會公開。"],["林委員淑芬：減量措施的預算經費表會公開嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：會。"],["林委員淑芬：我希望全部都公開，因為公開資訊有助於讓大企業的投資者、股票上市公司的投資者、消費者都可以評估企業低碳轉型或清潔製程導入的速度和方向，並判斷其是否符合政策目標，作為投資及消費這家大企業的依據，建立起人民對它的信任，且再生能源使用率提升或燃煤鍋爐淘汰進度這些資訊都攸關到企業減碳的績效，並且也影響到一般民眾的健康權益，所以這個很重要。這麼少，1噸10塊、20塊的碳費，一間公司省了好幾千萬、好幾億的稅金費率，到底有沒有真的在做減排？我們要檢視，不是只有政府在檢視，我們人民也要檢視。","所以今天我先談到這裡，公開透明，這是引進公民監督，進而減少政府的壓力，大家一起幫你看，監督企業這件事情不只是施壓於政府而已，壓力全民都扛著，大家一起看，減輕政府的壓力，有效嗎？有啊，所以我們絕對不允許將經營成本丟給社會，然後它不減排，只把稅金省起來，他們的盈餘分得更多，我們不能接受，這樣子可以嗎？署長。"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：你們什麼時候要公告他們共同申請的模式所有應該公開的細項，你們什麼時候要公告？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我們應該在年底吧，因為現在正在進行這些資料的審查，資訊公開網站的作法我們會在年底前公告。"],["林委員淑芬：你們資料的審查其實是停留在20世紀，我就不講了，因為是下一個要質詢的問題，但時間有限，我是要告訴你，依據第七條，得將自主減碳計畫應核定事項定期公開，你們全部的應公開事項，這個部分你說年底會公開？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我們就等著看，謝謝。"],["蔡署長玲儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的發言，也謝謝次長跟署長的答詢。","下一位請我們的召委劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":178,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","麥玉珍","陳瑩","楊曜","廖偉翔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、交通部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部就「因應歐盟管制超細懸浮微粒\n（PM0.1），我國空污管制政策如何精進、提升，保障國人健康安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146302_00002"}}}