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\"end\": 979.538, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,563 --> 00:00:14,403\n好謝謝主席有請次長有請次長還有交通部司長交通部司長交通公務運輸監理室的司長\n\n2\n00:00:19,054 --> 00:00:44,296\n我首先感謝我們的省次還有我們的彭部長針對主席今天所排的PM0.1相關的這些議題有公開的做一些正向的一些回應我們準備預計要來設這個兩站的PM0.1的監測站甚至於還有一些相關的一些比較積極的回應不過我還是覺得\n\n3\n00:00:45,257 --> 00:00:48,380\n可以再更具體一點因為過去我們從PM10一直到PM2.5我們說到這個剩下說到這個患者是更對人體有危害的細旋回力就PM2.5對不對\n\n4\n00:01:03,334 --> 00:01:23,934\n那P2.5當時也很多民間的一些朋友透過影片透過記者會透過很多的方式然後讓到最後政府來重視然後我們有效的到剛剛次長的一些報告裡面看到我們有明顯的不管BNTP2.5都有具體的這樣的下降的這樣的一個趨勢所以這個我們也必須要跟\n\n5\n00:01:27,998 --> 00:01:46,911\n環境部來做一個一定的程度的肯定但是當然也有相關的部位的這樣的一個機關來做相關配合包括我們過去教育部的這個空瓶齊等等等等諸如此類那我想是政府是一致的來面對這個事情然後共同的來分工然後來做處理\n\n6\n00:01:48,232 --> 00:02:05,564\n一樣現在我們面對到PM0.1的時候可能這個劑度要更快因為如果從PM10到PM0.1這是相近差了100倍然後超過細節微粒剛剛王志俊也有醫療的背景又特別提出這事情對人體的危害\n\n7\n00:02:06,084 --> 00:02:23,233\n更深層更加劇那當然也必須要有相關的一些依據來做我們整個施政應變的這樣的一個處理的方式所以我要特別提醒環境部我們不要在以過去剛剛面對到社會輿論針對重視PN2.5的情況之下\n\n8\n00:02:26,482 --> 00:02:47,589\n有時候很多還沒有得到正確的一些數據所以可能我們還必須要收集到一定完整的怎樣程度之後我們才來做這個有時候會為時已晚這個有時候也是一個民主進步國家不應該有的這樣的態度啦所以我是希望用歐盟現在包含世界衛生組織都有特別提到BN0.1\n\n9\n00:02:49,329 --> 00:03:12,759\n有什麼情況之下可以讓我們公部門動得更快收集的數據更多甚至我們可以超前部署來維護國人的身體健康因為畢竟我是從0610包含昨天也有一屆的先進包含王志興委員大家都非常關心那一屆從維護國人的健康的角度看到這種空氣的危害看到\n\n10\n00:03:13,799 --> 00:03:35,697\n這個PM0.1是叫做超細旋微粒有更深層的這樣的一個對身體的危害的情況之下所以我們的速度可能我們不敢講說100倍但是確實從PM2.5對照現在PM0.1那真的是我們可能要感人的速度要更快一些這是第一點那第二點\n\n11\n00:03:36,818 --> 00:03:44,063\n過去我們要治理這個沙塵暴的時候坦白講這叫霸凌紅白沙這霸凌紅白沙很多人覺得這是不可能改變的事因為整個河川的一個流向跟上游度所謂的積極攔路線破壞整體的水流的生態大家覺得這個事情是很難去做改善\n\n12\n00:03:55,771 --> 00:03:58,052\n但是最終最終我們從106年看到超過好幾天的1000維克利方米的情況之下最後最終也是我們現任的總統當時的行政院院長講了一句讓大家非常感動然後又配合\n\n13\n00:04:11,298 --> 00:04:37,371\n工部門的積極的這樣的一個處理所以我們從過去東北西東來臨的時候將近有60天的這個超過這個空氣品質非常惡劣的情況之下限縮到最後兩天甚至於包含確認度有三次的颱風破壞了原有的這些工滑那我還可以說在13天左右這代表說要做就不做了\n\n14\n00:04:39,092 --> 00:05:06,491\n再來就是剛才賴院長特別強調只要政府願意做經費無上限只要政府願意做就經費無上限這樣的一個魄力跟決心我想很多事情都可以去克服改善的好所以我現在就要就教請教次長現在全國我們所有的空瓶站地方先不算就我們環境部轄管的空瓶站固定跟移動的總共有幾站\n\n15\n00:05:07,679 --> 00:05:17,908\n我們有78座的這個監測站這是中央的好78座監測站那固定是幾站移動是幾站移動車的部分我們有三部車站\n\n16\n00:05:23,734 --> 00:05:44,454\nOK問監測師好沒關係來各位很棒喔我們那個監測車的部分一般的監測車就跟監測上一樣大概是12台那另外有光化學的監測車這個是移動的空品站對不對好那我們的78座有這側固定的污染源的跟這移動的污染源比例是怎麼樣\n\n17\n00:05:47,083 --> 00:06:12,626\n我們其實分類上面我們是以人體暴露的角度來分類所以一般監測站就針對人體暴露人口比較多的地方去設置的這個是56個站大部分都是這種站交通的站比較少目前是6個站另外工業站目前是兩個站還有國家公園站有兩個還有背景站三個\n\n18\n00:06:14,022 --> 00:06:39,434\n依照人口數去設這個固定的空品站嘛對不對所以有56嘛然後其他工業區的等等等諸如此類嘛對不對然後交通監測站的設置的一個根據是什麼一個按照人口那一個是不是按照車輛車流量的密度車流量的密度嘛對不對所以車流量的密度會隨著車輛的增加它的密度也應該會相對增加嘛\n\n19\n00:06:40,370 --> 00:06:59,529\n如果從空的角度人口增加當然就是一個排放增加之外但就空間來看的話我不可能隨著那個人口數增加車站就無上限一直上升\n\n20\n00:07:00,229 --> 00:07:27,932\n你不用講到極端你講到極端就不對了是說隨著人口的增加基本上你空瓶站還是要佈建相對增加這是一定比例當然你設置的空間有限的情況之下你還是要想辦法去克服但是不是說無限的上升到極致也不可能對不對但是我是要提醒市長2021開始是生不如死的人口結構快速的轉變\n\n21\n00:07:29,093 --> 00:07:51,532\n所以有很多地方的縣市基本上它人口是快速的在下落就像我本縣就像你的故鄉雲林縣從一百零四年一直到現在你知道一點減少多少人口嗎不知道你都沒有關心你自己的故鄉所以你的故鄉中央部的空氣品質一直不是很好你知道嗎一點不見了六千人一點不見六千人\n\n22\n00:07:55,999 --> 00:08:15,088\n這樣的空品站的設置如果按照人口數先不談增加所以你不用去擔心那個極致的東西你反而是下降在下降的情況之下你空品站的部件你是不是要有重新盤整思考去做處理這其一啦好那我們現在討論交通策戰\n\n23\n00:08:16,158 --> 00:08:36,386\n那加上之後為什麼要請市長上來市長可不可以大肆跟我們講說一下說明一下三年就好還是你如果記得更清楚講五年都好台灣的整體的機動車韓電車啦韓工程車啦工車啦機器機車啦這五年是往上成長還是往下掉\n\n24\n00:08:39,505 --> 00:09:04,550\n跟我們報告TOTO的話應該是維護往上升維護往上升嘛對不對好那維護往上升如果依照剛剛我們市長所講的啦按人口數增加固定的空品站必須部件也要相對的增加那車輛持續在增加那個交通的監測站也一定是必要隨著增加才對嘛\n\n25\n00:09:05,635 --> 00:09:10,057\n這六站中央轄管這六站已經維持幾年了不增不減請回答我一下好不好這六站\n\n26\n00:09:17,589 --> 00:09:35,376\n六月站的部分應該從那時候民國80年初的時候開始到現在民國80年初嘛對不對那市長你可不可以再答呼我一下80年一直到現在114年我剛剛講到全國的機動車成長比例弧度是不是可以大臣跟我們說明一下\n\n27\n00:09:37,128 --> 00:09:53,339\n跟委員報告一下大概每年成長都是微乎那如果說從80幾年到現在的話是有一定的數量那目前整個總數的部分我大概跟委員報告一下大概機車的部分不管是這一個燃油跟這一個電動的部分大概是1400多萬輛\n\n28\n00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:16,288\n然後這個小客車的部分小型車輛包括小貨車這些部分目前大概736萬輛然後這個大型車大型車包括大貨車大客車這些相關的部分大概也有30幾萬輛\n\n29\n00:10:19,409 --> 00:10:28,133\n那所以這個目前國內的一個大大小小的車輛加起來基本上是超過我們的這一個人口數對超過人口數嘛對不對已經超過2300萬嘛現金嘛對不對那民國80年的時候\n\n30\n00:10:34,264 --> 00:10:59,859\n多少嘛大致的那時候你還沒有當市長各位有報這個數據我可能再查一下因為每年有微幅增加嘛對不對微幅增加可能0.5到1%嘛假設嘛80幾年到現在應該增加2、30%不會過吧不為過吧不為過不為過嘛對不對好那相對著我們80幾年前就是六站的交通加工品質監測站嘛然後20幾年後還是六站\n\n31\n00:11:04,284 --> 00:11:06,809\n這樣的比例對嗎?這樣監測出來的數據,夠科學嗎?請教一下,答覆我\n\n32\n00:11:15,973 --> 00:11:36,215\n過去的監測來講,我們發現了一些主要的污染物,包括PM2.0,PM10,還有一個很重要的就是臭氧臭氧在交通站事實上是測不太出來,因為有交通排放會有抵銷所以過去的著重在臭氧的污染跟懸浮微粒的污染那也是比較著重在一般車站的設置\n\n33\n00:11:37,352 --> 00:12:01,187\n不是啦,市長,剛剛有委員垂詢你們的時候,是垂詢市長嘛就是那個固定站在3樓,在頂樓,跟交通車站是在平面基本上所測出來的狀況就不一樣嘛,對不對那比較貼近的應該是在平面嘛那我是要先講,剛剛你答覆我嘛如果固定的,基本上按人口數嘛,的增加余火嘛,對不對好,那車輛,我就用這種邏輯來討論就好了\n\n34\n00:12:05,901 --> 00:12:20,167\n應該是要改善了啦應該是要更激起來面對啦應該二十幾年來不可能台灣這麼快速成長的這些車輛的總數已經超過台灣的總人口數的情況之下當然啦你還可以把它細分出來\n\n35\n00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:40,126\n電動車的污染當然是低嘛你還是可以把它氣溫出來不過我相信二三十幾年來的電動車的比例基本上占全部增加車輛的比例它還是有一定的比例啦不過不過還是不會高於當時八十幾年前的\n\n36\n00:12:40,746 --> 00:13:07,649\n民國八十幾年前的那個車輛的總數啦扣掉電動車啦所以我是提醒今天我們是要面對更嚴峻的這個超細旋虎為力的對人體的危害所以我希望我希望我們的基本上的工具就叫做空氣秉直監測站不管你而且這一個歐盟這邊也提供出來最主要最主要的來源是來自交通的污染源所以台灣\n\n37\n00:13:09,543 --> 00:13:37,533\n這個島嶼國家有兩千三百多萬輛的車輛在行駛在我們的土地上你的空品站就不可能維持在民國八十幾年的時候的數量然後提供出來的數據我就要向你急劇的挑戰了委員謝謝你的質疑簡單講就這樣而已啊瞭解我知道那因為剛一開始有講說以前根本沒有人在關心PM1甚至PM0.1是啦是啦是啦現在已經知道說PM0.1主要的成因就是\n\n38\n00:13:39,180 --> 00:14:03,212\n車輛移動這些所造成的嗎所以去調查監測也是歐盟跟國際的趨勢嗎你如果監測你怎麼知道還有數據你怎麼去研究你怎麼去找出對策所以當然這個部分我們也要與時俱進啦做一下調整好不好我請教回去之後我們再研議一下這個監測也一定要有一定的一定的一個就像我們要做相關研究data的資料你要採得足夠吧\n\n39\n00:14:04,232 --> 00:14:24,644\n對不對你要怎麼去採取足夠的電腦資料可能你在部件上就不能依照民國80年前的這樣的一個部件來應付現在114年的狀態嘛我要表達的是這樣嘛就剛剛開場保守局講的以前在PNP的時候大家都在討論PNP有時候很多人會說那是以後兩年沒了是不是\n\n40\n00:14:27,852 --> 00:14:53,164\n馬國領就講搞不清楚啊但是現在大家你跟他們講PM10、PM2.5可能大家都很清楚的嘛而且現在是醫界來主動的發起這樣的聲音從過去PM2.5的經驗所在然後歐盟也在202612月底就要入華了所以我今天是具體要跟次長講也跟次長講說可能我們要更積極一點空黃我們要大修了嘛\n\n41\n00:14:53,624 --> 00:15:12,267\n要不要順勢而為把TN0.1也一併納入考量這是其一嘛那其二你的交通這個監測站要不要擴大部件了那多少個部件才符合現在你要去採集到的這個Data資料可做真正實際上的科學的根據\n\n42\n00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:23,518\n來維護我們的空氣品質然後保護保障國人的健康也呼籲一切對大家的這樣的一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個\n\n43\n00:15:24,412 --> 00:15:50,705\n應該是這樣嗎?一公會可以嗎?我們回來研議一個月這每天都要蓋上一秒鐘不蓋空氣有的人身體就不好了兩秒鐘不蓋空氣身體就不好了而且我再最後講一句話站在你的這個位置曾經也是我們前衛生署的署長心臟科權威三家醫學中心的院長最後確診失智長達五年\n\n44\n00:15:51,618 --> 00:16:06,323\n人都已經走了那空氣污染跟失智有直接的關係喔跟十大台灣的十大疾病有直接間接的關係喔所以維護國人健康不是只有衛生部環境部站在整體環境保護的立場\n\n45\n00:16:07,827 --> 00:16:19,538\n我想這個速度跟與時俱進的這種作為要更積極啦一共其實已經要算時間是很長的啦因為每天都要付錢嘛每天都是要面對這個事情嘛一個月內嘛兩個事情而已好不好好謝謝謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5563\t14403\t好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長還有交通部司長交通部司長交通公務運輸監理室的司長\n19054\t44296\t我首先感謝我們的省次還有我們的彭部長針對主席今天所排的PM0.1相關的這些議題有公開的做一些正向的一些回應我們準備預計要來設這個兩站的PM0.1的監測站甚至於還有一些相關的一些比較積極的回應不過我還是覺得\n45257\t48380\t可以再更具體一點因為過去我們從PM10一直到PM2.5我們說到這個剩下說到這個患者是更對人體有危害的細旋回力就PM2.5對不對\n63334\t83934\t那P2.5當時也很多民間的一些朋友透過影片透過記者會透過很多的方式然後讓到最後政府來重視然後我們有效的到剛剛次長的一些報告裡面看到我們有明顯的不管BNT P2.5都有具體的這樣的下降的這樣的一個趨勢所以這個我們也必須要跟\n87998\t106911\t環境部來做一個一定的程度的肯定但是當然也有相關的部位的這樣的一個機關來做相關配合包括我們過去教育部的這個空瓶齊等等等等諸如此類那我想是政府是一致的來面對這個事情然後共同的來分工然後來做處理\n108232\t125564\t一樣現在我們面對到PM0.1的時候可能這個劑度要更快因為如果從PM10到PM0.1這是相近差了100倍然後超過細節微粒剛剛王志俊也有醫療的背景又特別提出這事情對人體的危害\n126084\t143233\t更深層更加劇那當然也必須要有相關的一些依據來做我們整個施政應變的這樣的一個處理的方式所以我要特別提醒環境部我們不要在以過去剛剛面對到社會輿論針對重視PN2.5的情況之下\n146482\t167589\t有時候很多還沒有得到正確的一些數據所以可能我們還必須要收集到一定完整的怎樣程度之後我們才來做這個有時候會為時已晚這個有時候也是一個民主進步國家不應該有的這樣的態度啦所以我是希望用歐盟現在包含世界衛生組織都有特別提到BN0.1\n169329\t192759\t有什麼情況之下可以讓我們公部門動得更快收集的數據更多甚至我們可以超前部署來維護國人的身體健康因為畢竟我是從0610包含昨天也有一屆的先進包含王志興委員大家都非常關心那一屆從維護國人的健康的角度看到這種空氣的危害看到\n193799\t215697\t這個PM0.1是叫做超細旋微粒有更深層的這樣的一個對身體的危害的情況之下所以我們的速度可能我們不敢講說100倍但是確實從PM2.5對照現在PM0.1那真的是我們可能要感人的速度要更快一些這是第一點那第二點\n216818\t224063\t過去我們要治理這個沙塵暴的時候坦白講這叫霸凌紅白沙這霸凌紅白沙很多人覺得這是不可能改變的事因為整個河川的一個流向跟上游度所謂的積極攔路線破壞整體的水流的生態大家覺得這個事情是很難去做改善\n235771\t238052\t但是最終最終我們從106年看到超過好幾天的1000維克利方米的情況之下最後最終也是我們現任的總統當時的行政院院長講了一句讓大家非常感動然後又配合\n251298\t277371\t工部門的積極的這樣的一個處理所以我們從過去東北西東來臨的時候將近有60天的這個超過這個空氣品質非常惡劣的情況之下限縮到最後兩天甚至於包含確認度有三次的颱風破壞了原有的這些工滑那我還可以說在13天左右這代表說要做就不做了\n279092\t306491\t再來就是剛才賴院長特別強調只要政府願意做 經費無上限只要政府願意做 就經費無上限這樣的一個魄力跟決心我想很多事情都可以去克服 改善的好 所以我現在就要就教請教次長現在全國我們所有的空瓶站地方先不算就我們環境部 轄管的空瓶站固定跟移動的總共有幾站\n307679\t317908\t我們有78座的這個監測站這是中央的好78座監測站那固定是幾站移動是幾站移動車的部分我們有三部車站\n323734\t344454\tOK 問監測師好沒關係 來各位很棒喔 我們那個監測車的部分一般的監測車就跟監測上一樣大概是12台那另外有光化學的監測車這個是移動的空品站對不對好 那我們的78座有這側固定的污染源的跟這移動的污染源比例是怎麼樣\n347083\t372626\t我們其實分類上面我們是以人體暴露的角度來分類所以一般監測站就針對人體暴露人口比較多的地方去設置的這個是56個站大部分都是這種站交通的站比較少目前是6個站另外工業站目前是兩個站還有國家公園站有兩個還有背景站三個\n374022\t399434\t依照人口數去設這個固定的空品站嘛對不對所以有56嘛然後其他工業區的等等等諸如此類嘛對不對然後交通監測站的設置的一個根據是什麼一個按照人口那一個是不是按照車輛車流量的密度車流量的密度嘛對不對所以車流量的密度會隨著車輛的增加它的密度也應該會相對增加嘛\n400370\t419529\t如果從空的角度人口增加當然就是一個排放增加之外但就空間來看的話我不可能隨著那個人口數增加車站就無上限一直上升\n420229\t447932\t你不用講到極端你講到極端就不對了是說隨著人口的增加基本上你空瓶站還是要佈建相對增加這是一定比例當然你設置的空間有限的情況之下你還是要想辦法去克服但是不是說無限的上升到極致也不可能對不對但是我是要提醒市長2021開始是生不如死的人口結構快速的轉變\n449093\t471532\t所以有很多地方的縣市基本上它人口是快速的在下落就像我本縣就像你的故鄉雲林縣從一百零四年一直到現在你知道一點減少多少人口嗎不知道你都沒有關心你自己的故鄉所以你的故鄉中央部的空氣品質一直不是很好你知道嗎一點不見了六千人一點不見六千人\n475999\t495088\t這樣的空品站的設置如果按照人口數先不談增加所以你不用去擔心那個極致的東西你反而是下降在下降的情況之下你空品站的部件你是不是要有重新盤整思考去做處理這其一啦好那我們現在討論交通策戰\n496158\t516386\t那加上之後為什麼要請市長上來市長可不可以大肆跟我們講說一下說明一下三年就好還是你如果記得更清楚講五年都好台灣的整體的機動車韓電車啦韓工程車啦工車啦機器機車啦這五年是往上成長還是往下掉\n519505\t544550\t跟我們報告TOTO的話應該是維護往上升維護往上升嘛對不對好那維護往上升如果依照剛剛我們市長所講的啦按人口數增加固定的空品站必須部件也要相對的增加那車輛持續在增加那個交通的監測站也一定是必要隨著增加才對嘛\n545635\t550057\t這六站 中央轄管這六站已經維持幾年了不增不減請回答我一下好不好這六站\n557589\t575376\t六月站的部分應該從那時候民國80年初的時候開始到現在民國80年初嘛對不對那市長你可不可以再答呼我一下80年一直到現在114年我剛剛講到全國的機動車成長比例弧度是不是可以大臣跟我們說明一下\n577128\t593339\t跟委員報告一下大概每年成長都是微乎那如果說從80幾年到現在的話是有一定的數量那目前整個總數的部分我大概跟委員報告一下大概機車的部分不管是這一個燃油跟這一個電動的部分大概是1400多萬輛\n595280\t616288\t然後這個小客車的部分 小型車輛 包括小貨車這些部分目前大概736萬輛然後這個大型車 大型車包括大貨車 大客車這些相關的部分大概也有30幾萬輛\n619409\t628133\t那所以這個目前國內的一個大大小小的車輛加起來基本上是超過我們的這一個人口數對 超過人口數嘛 對不對已經超過2300萬嘛現金嘛 對不對那民國80年的時候\n634264\t659859\t多少嘛大致的那時候你還沒有當市長各位有報這個數據我可能再查一下因為每年有微幅增加嘛對不對微幅增加可能0.5到1%嘛假設嘛80幾年到現在應該增加2、30%不會過吧不為過吧不為過不為過嘛對不對好那相對著我們80幾年前就是六站的交通加工品質監測站嘛然後20幾年後還是六站\n664284\t666809\t這樣的比例對嗎?這樣監測出來的數據,夠科學嗎?請教一下,答覆我\n675973\t696215\t過去的監測來講,我們發現了一些主要的污染物,包括PM2.0,PM10,還有一個很重要的就是臭氧臭氧在交通站事實上是測不太出來,因為有交通排放會有抵銷所以過去的著重在臭氧的污染跟懸浮微粒的污染那也是比較著重在一般車站的設置\n697352\t721187\t不是啦,市長,剛剛有委員垂詢你們的時候,是垂詢市長嘛就是那個固定站在3樓,在頂樓,跟交通車站是在平面基本上所測出來的狀況就不一樣嘛,對不對那比較貼近的應該是在平面嘛那我是要先講,剛剛你答覆我嘛如果固定的,基本上按人口數嘛,的增加余火嘛,對不對好,那車輛,我就用這種邏輯來討論就好了\n725901\t740167\t應該是要改善了啦應該是要更激起來面對啦應該二十幾年來不可能台灣這麼快速成長的這些車輛的總數已經超過台灣的總人口數的情況之下當然啦 你還可以把它細分出來\n741908\t760126\t電動車的污染當然是低嘛你還是可以把它氣溫出來不過我相信二三十幾年來的電動車的比例基本上占全部增加車輛的比例它還是有一定的比例啦不過不過還是不會高於當時八十幾年前的\n760746\t787649\t民國八十幾年前的那個車輛的總數啦扣掉電動車啦所以我是提醒今天我們是要面對更嚴峻的這個超細旋虎為力的對人體的危害所以我希望我希望我們的基本上的工具就叫做空氣秉直監測站不管你 而且這一個歐盟這邊也提供出來最主要最主要的來源是來自交通的污染源所以台灣\n789543\t817533\t這個島嶼國家有兩千三百多萬輛的車輛在行駛在我們的土地上你的空品站就不可能維持在民國八十幾年的時候的數量然後提供出來的數據我就要向你急劇的挑戰了委員謝謝你的質疑 簡單講就這樣而已啊 瞭解 我知道那因為剛一開始有講說以前根本沒有人在關心PM1甚至PM0.1是啦 是啦 是啦 現在已經知道說PM0.1主要的成因就是\n819180\t843212\t車輛移動這些所造成的嗎所以去調查監測也是歐盟跟國際的趨勢嗎你如果監測你怎麼知道還有數據你怎麼去研究你怎麼去找出對策所以當然這個部分我們也要與時俱進啦做一下調整好不好我請教回去之後我們再研議一下這個監測也一定要有一定的一定的一個就像我們要做相關研究data的資料你要採得足夠吧\n844232\t864644\t對不對 你要怎麼去採取足夠的電腦資料可能你在部件上就不能依照民國80年前的這樣的一個部件來應付現在114年的狀態嘛我要表達的是這樣嘛就剛剛開場保守局講的 以前在PNP的時候大家都在討論PNP有時候很多人會說那是以後兩年沒了是不是\n867852\t893164\t馬國領就講搞不清楚啊但是現在大家你跟他們講PM10、PM2.5可能大家都很清楚的嘛而且現在是醫界來主動的發起這樣的聲音從過去PM2.5的經驗所在然後歐盟也在202612月底就要入華了所以我今天是具體要跟次長講也跟次長講說可能我們要更積極一點空黃我們要大修了嘛\n893624\t912267\t要不要順勢而為把TN0.1也一併納入考量這是其一嘛那其二你的交通這個監測站要不要擴大部件了那多少個部件才符合現在你要去採集到的這個Data資料可做真正實際上的科學的根據\n914069\t923518\t來維護我們的空氣品質然後保護 保障國人的健康也呼籲一切對大家的這樣的一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個\n924412\t950705\t應該是這樣嗎?一公會可以嗎?我們回來研議一個月這每天都要蓋上一秒鐘不蓋空氣有的人身體就不好了兩秒鐘不蓋空氣身體就不好了而且我再最後講一句話站在你的這個位置曾經也是我們前衛生署的署長心臟科權威三家醫學中心的院長最後確診失智長達五年\n951618\t966323\t人都已經走了那空氣污染跟失智有直接的關係喔跟十大台灣的十大疾病有直接間接的關係喔所以維護國人健康不是只有衛生部環境部站在整體環境保護的立場\n967827\t979538\t我想這個速度跟與時俱進的這種作為要更積極啦一共其實已經 要算時間是很長的啦因為每天都要付錢嘛 每天都是要面對這個事情嘛一個月內嘛 兩個事情而已 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長還有交通部司長交通部司長交通公務運輸監理室的司長\n我首先感謝我們的省次還有我們的彭部長針對主席今天所排的PM0.1相關的這些議題有公開的做一些正向的一些回應我們準備預計要來設這個兩站的PM0.1的監測站甚至於還有一些相關的一些比較積極的回應不過我還是覺得\n可以再更具體一點因為過去我們從PM10一直到PM2.5我們說到這個剩下說到這個患者是更對人體有危害的細旋回力就PM2.5對不對\n那P2.5當時也很多民間的一些朋友透過影片透過記者會透過很多的方式然後讓到最後政府來重視然後我們有效的到剛剛次長的一些報告裡面看到我們有明顯的不管BNT P2.5都有具體的這樣的下降的這樣的一個趨勢所以這個我們也必須要跟\n環境部來做一個一定的程度的肯定但是當然也有相關的部位的這樣的一個機關來做相關配合包括我們過去教育部的這個空瓶齊等等等等諸如此類那我想是政府是一致的來面對這個事情然後共同的來分工然後來做處理\n一樣現在我們面對到PM0.1的時候可能這個劑度要更快因為如果從PM10到PM0.1這是相近差了100倍然後超過細節微粒剛剛王志俊也有醫療的背景又特別提出這事情對人體的危害\n更深層更加劇那當然也必須要有相關的一些依據來做我們整個施政應變的這樣的一個處理的方式所以我要特別提醒環境部我們不要在以過去剛剛面對到社會輿論針對重視PN2.5的情況之下\n有時候很多還沒有得到正確的一些數據所以可能我們還必須要收集到一定完整的怎樣程度之後我們才來做這個有時候會為時已晚這個有時候也是一個民主進步國家不應該有的這樣的態度啦所以我是希望用歐盟現在包含世界衛生組織都有特別提到BN0.1\n有什麼情況之下可以讓我們公部門動得更快收集的數據更多甚至我們可以超前部署來維護國人的身體健康因為畢竟我是從0610包含昨天也有一屆的先進包含王志興委員大家都非常關心那一屆從維護國人的健康的角度看到這種空氣的危害看到\n這個PM0.1是叫做超細旋微粒有更深層的這樣的一個對身體的危害的情況之下所以我們的速度可能我們不敢講說100倍但是確實從PM2.5對照現在PM0.1那真的是我們可能要感人的速度要更快一些這是第一點那第二點\n過去我們要治理這個沙塵暴的時候坦白講這叫霸凌紅白沙這霸凌紅白沙很多人覺得這是不可能改變的事因為整個河川的一個流向跟上游度所謂的積極攔路線破壞整體的水流的生態大家覺得這個事情是很難去做改善\n但是最終最終我們從106年看到超過好幾天的1000維克利方米的情況之下最後最終也是我們現任的總統當時的行政院院長講了一句讓大家非常感動然後又配合\n工部門的積極的這樣的一個處理所以我們從過去東北西東來臨的時候將近有60天的這個超過這個空氣品質非常惡劣的情況之下限縮到最後兩天甚至於包含確認度有三次的颱風破壞了原有的這些工滑那我還可以說在13天左右這代表說要做就不做了\n再來就是剛才賴院長特別強調只要政府願意做 經費無上限只要政府願意做 就經費無上限這樣的一個魄力跟決心我想很多事情都可以去克服 改善的好 所以我現在就要就教請教次長現在全國我們所有的空瓶站地方先不算就我們環境部 轄管的空瓶站固定跟移動的總共有幾站\n我們有78座的這個監測站這是中央的好78座監測站那固定是幾站移動是幾站移動車的部分我們有三部車站\nOK 問監測師好沒關係 來各位很棒喔 我們那個監測車的部分一般的監測車就跟監測上一樣大概是12台那另外有光化學的監測車這個是移動的空品站對不對好 那我們的78座有這側固定的污染源的跟這移動的污染源比例是怎麼樣\n我們其實分類上面我們是以人體暴露的角度來分類所以一般監測站就針對人體暴露人口比較多的地方去設置的這個是56個站大部分都是這種站交通的站比較少目前是6個站另外工業站目前是兩個站還有國家公園站有兩個還有背景站三個\n依照人口數去設這個固定的空品站嘛對不對所以有56嘛然後其他工業區的等等等諸如此類嘛對不對然後交通監測站的設置的一個根據是什麼一個按照人口那一個是不是按照車輛車流量的密度車流量的密度嘛對不對所以車流量的密度會隨著車輛的增加它的密度也應該會相對增加嘛\n如果從空的角度人口增加當然就是一個排放增加之外但就空間來看的話我不可能隨著那個人口數增加車站就無上限一直上升\n你不用講到極端你講到極端就不對了是說隨著人口的增加基本上你空瓶站還是要佈建相對增加這是一定比例當然你設置的空間有限的情況之下你還是要想辦法去克服但是不是說無限的上升到極致也不可能對不對但是我是要提醒市長2021開始是生不如死的人口結構快速的轉變\n所以有很多地方的縣市基本上它人口是快速的在下落就像我本縣就像你的故鄉雲林縣從一百零四年一直到現在你知道一點減少多少人口嗎不知道你都沒有關心你自己的故鄉所以你的故鄉中央部的空氣品質一直不是很好你知道嗎一點不見了六千人一點不見六千人\n這樣的空品站的設置如果按照人口數先不談增加所以你不用去擔心那個極致的東西你反而是下降在下降的情況之下你空品站的部件你是不是要有重新盤整思考去做處理這其一啦好那我們現在討論交通策戰\n那加上之後為什麼要請市長上來市長可不可以大肆跟我們講說一下說明一下三年就好還是你如果記得更清楚講五年都好台灣的整體的機動車韓電車啦韓工程車啦工車啦機器機車啦這五年是往上成長還是往下掉\n跟我們報告TOTO的話應該是維護往上升維護往上升嘛對不對好那維護往上升如果依照剛剛我們市長所講的啦按人口數增加固定的空品站必須部件也要相對的增加那車輛持續在增加那個交通的監測站也一定是必要隨著增加才對嘛\n這六站 中央轄管這六站已經維持幾年了不增不減請回答我一下好不好這六站\n六月站的部分應該從那時候民國80年初的時候開始到現在民國80年初嘛對不對那市長你可不可以再答呼我一下80年一直到現在114年我剛剛講到全國的機動車成長比例弧度是不是可以大臣跟我們說明一下\n跟委員報告一下大概每年成長都是微乎那如果說從80幾年到現在的話是有一定的數量那目前整個總數的部分我大概跟委員報告一下大概機車的部分不管是這一個燃油跟這一個電動的部分大概是1400多萬輛\n然後這個小客車的部分 小型車輛 包括小貨車這些部分目前大概736萬輛然後這個大型車 大型車包括大貨車 大客車這些相關的部分大概也有30幾萬輛\n那所以這個目前國內的一個大大小小的車輛加起來基本上是超過我們的這一個人口數對 超過人口數嘛 對不對已經超過2300萬嘛現金嘛 對不對那民國80年的時候\n多少嘛大致的那時候你還沒有當市長各位有報這個數據我可能再查一下因為每年有微幅增加嘛對不對微幅增加可能0.5到1%嘛假設嘛80幾年到現在應該增加2、30%不會過吧不為過吧不為過不為過嘛對不對好那相對著我們80幾年前就是六站的交通加工品質監測站嘛然後20幾年後還是六站\n這樣的比例對嗎?這樣監測出來的數據,夠科學嗎?請教一下,答覆我\n過去的監測來講,我們發現了一些主要的污染物,包括PM2.0,PM10,還有一個很重要的就是臭氧臭氧在交通站事實上是測不太出來,因為有交通排放會有抵銷所以過去的著重在臭氧的污染跟懸浮微粒的污染那也是比較著重在一般車站的設置\n不是啦,市長,剛剛有委員垂詢你們的時候,是垂詢市長嘛就是那個固定站在3樓,在頂樓,跟交通車站是在平面基本上所測出來的狀況就不一樣嘛,對不對那比較貼近的應該是在平面嘛那我是要先講,剛剛你答覆我嘛如果固定的,基本上按人口數嘛,的增加余火嘛,對不對好,那車輛,我就用這種邏輯來討論就好了\n應該是要改善了啦應該是要更激起來面對啦應該二十幾年來不可能台灣這麼快速成長的這些車輛的總數已經超過台灣的總人口數的情況之下當然啦 你還可以把它細分出來\n電動車的污染當然是低嘛你還是可以把它氣溫出來不過我相信二三十幾年來的電動車的比例基本上占全部增加車輛的比例它還是有一定的比例啦不過不過還是不會高於當時八十幾年前的\n民國八十幾年前的那個車輛的總數啦扣掉電動車啦所以我是提醒今天我們是要面對更嚴峻的這個超細旋虎為力的對人體的危害所以我希望我希望我們的基本上的工具就叫做空氣秉直監測站不管你 而且這一個歐盟這邊也提供出來最主要最主要的來源是來自交通的污染源所以台灣\n這個島嶼國家有兩千三百多萬輛的車輛在行駛在我們的土地上你的空品站就不可能維持在民國八十幾年的時候的數量然後提供出來的數據我就要向你急劇的挑戰了委員謝謝你的質疑 簡單講就這樣而已啊 瞭解 我知道那因為剛一開始有講說以前根本沒有人在關心PM1甚至PM0.1是啦 是啦 是啦 現在已經知道說PM0.1主要的成因就是\n車輛移動這些所造成的嗎所以去調查監測也是歐盟跟國際的趨勢嗎你如果監測你怎麼知道還有數據你怎麼去研究你怎麼去找出對策所以當然這個部分我們也要與時俱進啦做一下調整好不好我請教回去之後我們再研議一下這個監測也一定要有一定的一定的一個就像我們要做相關研究data的資料你要採得足夠吧\n對不對 你要怎麼去採取足夠的電腦資料可能你在部件上就不能依照民國80年前的這樣的一個部件來應付現在114年的狀態嘛我要表達的是這樣嘛就剛剛開場保守局講的 以前在PNP的時候大家都在討論PNP有時候很多人會說那是以後兩年沒了是不是\n馬國領就講搞不清楚啊但是現在大家你跟他們講PM10、PM2.5可能大家都很清楚的嘛而且現在是醫界來主動的發起這樣的聲音從過去PM2.5的經驗所在然後歐盟也在202612月底就要入華了所以我今天是具體要跟次長講也跟次長講說可能我們要更積極一點空黃我們要大修了嘛\n要不要順勢而為把TN0.1也一併納入考量這是其一嘛那其二你的交通這個監測站要不要擴大部件了那多少個部件才符合現在你要去採集到的這個Data資料可做真正實際上的科學的根據\n來維護我們的空氣品質然後保護 保障國人的健康也呼籲一切對大家的這樣的一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個\n應該是這樣嗎?一公會可以嗎?我們回來研議一個月這每天都要蓋上一秒鐘不蓋空氣有的人身體就不好了兩秒鐘不蓋空氣身體就不好了而且我再最後講一句話站在你的這個位置曾經也是我們前衛生署的署長心臟科權威三家醫學中心的院長最後確診失智長達五年\n人都已經走了那空氣污染跟失智有直接的關係喔跟十大台灣的十大疾病有直接間接的關係喔所以維護國人健康不是只有衛生部環境部站在整體環境保護的立場\n我想這個速度跟與時俱進的這種作為要更積極啦一共其實已經 要算時間是很長的啦因為每天都要付錢嘛 每天都是要面對這個事情嘛一個月內嘛 兩個事情而已 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.563 --> 00:14.403\n好謝謝主席有請次長有請次長還有交通部司長交通部司長交通公務運輸監理室的司長\n\n00:19.054 --> 00:44.296\n我首先感謝我們的省次還有我們的彭部長針對主席今天所排的PM0.1相關的這些議題有公開的做一些正向的一些回應我們準備預計要來設這個兩站的PM0.1的監測站甚至於還有一些相關的一些比較積極的回應不過我還是覺得\n\n00:45.257 --> 00:48.380\n可以再更具體一點因為過去我們從PM10一直到PM2.5我們說到這個剩下說到這個患者是更對人體有危害的細旋回力就PM2.5對不對\n\n01:03.334 --> 01:23.934\n那P2.5當時也很多民間的一些朋友透過影片透過記者會透過很多的方式然後讓到最後政府來重視然後我們有效的到剛剛次長的一些報告裡面看到我們有明顯的不管BNTP2.5都有具體的這樣的下降的這樣的一個趨勢所以這個我們也必須要跟\n\n01:27.998 --> 01:46.911\n環境部來做一個一定的程度的肯定但是當然也有相關的部位的這樣的一個機關來做相關配合包括我們過去教育部的這個空瓶齊等等等等諸如此類那我想是政府是一致的來面對這個事情然後共同的來分工然後來做處理\n\n01:48.232 --> 02:05.564\n一樣現在我們面對到PM0.1的時候可能這個劑度要更快因為如果從PM10到PM0.1這是相近差了100倍然後超過細節微粒剛剛王志俊也有醫療的背景又特別提出這事情對人體的危害\n\n02:06.084 --> 02:23.233\n更深層更加劇那當然也必須要有相關的一些依據來做我們整個施政應變的這樣的一個處理的方式所以我要特別提醒環境部我們不要在以過去剛剛面對到社會輿論針對重視PN2.5的情況之下\n\n02:26.482 --> 02:47.589\n有時候很多還沒有得到正確的一些數據所以可能我們還必須要收集到一定完整的怎樣程度之後我們才來做這個有時候會為時已晚這個有時候也是一個民主進步國家不應該有的這樣的態度啦所以我是希望用歐盟現在包含世界衛生組織都有特別提到BN0.1\n\n02:49.329 --> 03:12.759\n有什麼情況之下可以讓我們公部門動得更快收集的數據更多甚至我們可以超前部署來維護國人的身體健康因為畢竟我是從0610包含昨天也有一屆的先進包含王志興委員大家都非常關心那一屆從維護國人的健康的角度看到這種空氣的危害看到\n\n03:13.799 --> 03:35.697\n這個PM0.1是叫做超細旋微粒有更深層的這樣的一個對身體的危害的情況之下所以我們的速度可能我們不敢講說100倍但是確實從PM2.5對照現在PM0.1那真的是我們可能要感人的速度要更快一些這是第一點那第二點\n\n03:36.818 --> 03:44.063\n過去我們要治理這個沙塵暴的時候坦白講這叫霸凌紅白沙這霸凌紅白沙很多人覺得這是不可能改變的事因為整個河川的一個流向跟上游度所謂的積極攔路線破壞整體的水流的生態大家覺得這個事情是很難去做改善\n\n03:55.771 --> 03:58.052\n但是最終最終我們從106年看到超過好幾天的1000維克利方米的情況之下最後最終也是我們現任的總統當時的行政院院長講了一句讓大家非常感動然後又配合\n\n04:11.298 --> 04:37.371\n工部門的積極的這樣的一個處理所以我們從過去東北西東來臨的時候將近有60天的這個超過這個空氣品質非常惡劣的情況之下限縮到最後兩天甚至於包含確認度有三次的颱風破壞了原有的這些工滑那我還可以說在13天左右這代表說要做就不做了\n\n04:39.092 --> 05:06.491\n再來就是剛才賴院長特別強調只要政府願意做經費無上限只要政府願意做就經費無上限這樣的一個魄力跟決心我想很多事情都可以去克服改善的好所以我現在就要就教請教次長現在全國我們所有的空瓶站地方先不算就我們環境部轄管的空瓶站固定跟移動的總共有幾站\n\n05:07.679 --> 05:17.908\n我們有78座的這個監測站這是中央的好78座監測站那固定是幾站移動是幾站移動車的部分我們有三部車站\n\n05:23.734 --> 05:44.454\nOK問監測師好沒關係來各位很棒喔我們那個監測車的部分一般的監測車就跟監測上一樣大概是12台那另外有光化學的監測車這個是移動的空品站對不對好那我們的78座有這側固定的污染源的跟這移動的污染源比例是怎麼樣\n\n05:47.083 --> 06:12.626\n我們其實分類上面我們是以人體暴露的角度來分類所以一般監測站就針對人體暴露人口比較多的地方去設置的這個是56個站大部分都是這種站交通的站比較少目前是6個站另外工業站目前是兩個站還有國家公園站有兩個還有背景站三個\n\n06:14.022 --> 06:39.434\n依照人口數去設這個固定的空品站嘛對不對所以有56嘛然後其他工業區的等等等諸如此類嘛對不對然後交通監測站的設置的一個根據是什麼一個按照人口那一個是不是按照車輛車流量的密度車流量的密度嘛對不對所以車流量的密度會隨著車輛的增加它的密度也應該會相對增加嘛\n\n06:40.370 --> 06:59.529\n如果從空的角度人口增加當然就是一個排放增加之外但就空間來看的話我不可能隨著那個人口數增加車站就無上限一直上升\n\n07:00.229 --> 07:27.932\n你不用講到極端你講到極端就不對了是說隨著人口的增加基本上你空瓶站還是要佈建相對增加這是一定比例當然你設置的空間有限的情況之下你還是要想辦法去克服但是不是說無限的上升到極致也不可能對不對但是我是要提醒市長2021開始是生不如死的人口結構快速的轉變\n\n07:29.093 --> 07:51.532\n所以有很多地方的縣市基本上它人口是快速的在下落就像我本縣就像你的故鄉雲林縣從一百零四年一直到現在你知道一點減少多少人口嗎不知道你都沒有關心你自己的故鄉所以你的故鄉中央部的空氣品質一直不是很好你知道嗎一點不見了六千人一點不見六千人\n\n07:55.999 --> 08:15.088\n這樣的空品站的設置如果按照人口數先不談增加所以你不用去擔心那個極致的東西你反而是下降在下降的情況之下你空品站的部件你是不是要有重新盤整思考去做處理這其一啦好那我們現在討論交通策戰\n\n08:16.158 --> 08:36.386\n那加上之後為什麼要請市長上來市長可不可以大肆跟我們講說一下說明一下三年就好還是你如果記得更清楚講五年都好台灣的整體的機動車韓電車啦韓工程車啦工車啦機器機車啦這五年是往上成長還是往下掉\n\n08:39.505 --> 09:04.550\n跟我們報告TOTO的話應該是維護往上升維護往上升嘛對不對好那維護往上升如果依照剛剛我們市長所講的啦按人口數增加固定的空品站必須部件也要相對的增加那車輛持續在增加那個交通的監測站也一定是必要隨著增加才對嘛\n\n09:05.635 --> 09:10.057\n這六站中央轄管這六站已經維持幾年了不增不減請回答我一下好不好這六站\n\n09:17.589 --> 09:35.376\n六月站的部分應該從那時候民國80年初的時候開始到現在民國80年初嘛對不對那市長你可不可以再答呼我一下80年一直到現在114年我剛剛講到全國的機動車成長比例弧度是不是可以大臣跟我們說明一下\n\n09:37.128 --> 09:53.339\n跟委員報告一下大概每年成長都是微乎那如果說從80幾年到現在的話是有一定的數量那目前整個總數的部分我大概跟委員報告一下大概機車的部分不管是這一個燃油跟這一個電動的部分大概是1400多萬輛\n\n09:55.280 --> 10:16.288\n然後這個小客車的部分小型車輛包括小貨車這些部分目前大概736萬輛然後這個大型車大型車包括大貨車大客車這些相關的部分大概也有30幾萬輛\n\n10:19.409 --> 10:28.133\n那所以這個目前國內的一個大大小小的車輛加起來基本上是超過我們的這一個人口數對超過人口數嘛對不對已經超過2300萬嘛現金嘛對不對那民國80年的時候\n\n10:34.264 --> 10:59.859\n多少嘛大致的那時候你還沒有當市長各位有報這個數據我可能再查一下因為每年有微幅增加嘛對不對微幅增加可能0.5到1%嘛假設嘛80幾年到現在應該增加2、30%不會過吧不為過吧不為過不為過嘛對不對好那相對著我們80幾年前就是六站的交通加工品質監測站嘛然後20幾年後還是六站\n\n11:04.284 --> 11:06.809\n這樣的比例對嗎?這樣監測出來的數據,夠科學嗎?請教一下,答覆我\n\n11:15.973 --> 11:36.215\n過去的監測來講,我們發現了一些主要的污染物,包括PM2.0,PM10,還有一個很重要的就是臭氧臭氧在交通站事實上是測不太出來,因為有交通排放會有抵銷所以過去的著重在臭氧的污染跟懸浮微粒的污染那也是比較著重在一般車站的設置\n\n11:37.352 --> 12:01.187\n不是啦,市長,剛剛有委員垂詢你們的時候,是垂詢市長嘛就是那個固定站在3樓,在頂樓,跟交通車站是在平面基本上所測出來的狀況就不一樣嘛,對不對那比較貼近的應該是在平面嘛那我是要先講,剛剛你答覆我嘛如果固定的,基本上按人口數嘛,的增加余火嘛,對不對好,那車輛,我就用這種邏輯來討論就好了\n\n12:05.901 --> 12:20.167\n應該是要改善了啦應該是要更激起來面對啦應該二十幾年來不可能台灣這麼快速成長的這些車輛的總數已經超過台灣的總人口數的情況之下當然啦你還可以把它細分出來\n\n12:21.908 --> 12:40.126\n電動車的污染當然是低嘛你還是可以把它氣溫出來不過我相信二三十幾年來的電動車的比例基本上占全部增加車輛的比例它還是有一定的比例啦不過不過還是不會高於當時八十幾年前的\n\n12:40.746 --> 13:07.649\n民國八十幾年前的那個車輛的總數啦扣掉電動車啦所以我是提醒今天我們是要面對更嚴峻的這個超細旋虎為力的對人體的危害所以我希望我希望我們的基本上的工具就叫做空氣秉直監測站不管你而且這一個歐盟這邊也提供出來最主要最主要的來源是來自交通的污染源所以台灣\n\n13:09.543 --> 13:37.533\n這個島嶼國家有兩千三百多萬輛的車輛在行駛在我們的土地上你的空品站就不可能維持在民國八十幾年的時候的數量然後提供出來的數據我就要向你急劇的挑戰了委員謝謝你的質疑簡單講就這樣而已啊瞭解我知道那因為剛一開始有講說以前根本沒有人在關心PM1甚至PM0.1是啦是啦是啦現在已經知道說PM0.1主要的成因就是\n\n13:39.180 --> 14:03.212\n車輛移動這些所造成的嗎所以去調查監測也是歐盟跟國際的趨勢嗎你如果監測你怎麼知道還有數據你怎麼去研究你怎麼去找出對策所以當然這個部分我們也要與時俱進啦做一下調整好不好我請教回去之後我們再研議一下這個監測也一定要有一定的一定的一個就像我們要做相關研究data的資料你要採得足夠吧\n\n14:04.232 --> 14:24.644\n對不對你要怎麼去採取足夠的電腦資料可能你在部件上就不能依照民國80年前的這樣的一個部件來應付現在114年的狀態嘛我要表達的是這樣嘛就剛剛開場保守局講的以前在PNP的時候大家都在討論PNP有時候很多人會說那是以後兩年沒了是不是\n\n14:27.852 --> 14:53.164\n馬國領就講搞不清楚啊但是現在大家你跟他們講PM10、PM2.5可能大家都很清楚的嘛而且現在是醫界來主動的發起這樣的聲音從過去PM2.5的經驗所在然後歐盟也在202612月底就要入華了所以我今天是具體要跟次長講也跟次長講說可能我們要更積極一點空黃我們要大修了嘛\n\n14:53.624 --> 15:12.267\n要不要順勢而為把TN0.1也一併納入考量這是其一嘛那其二你的交通這個監測站要不要擴大部件了那多少個部件才符合現在你要去採集到的這個Data資料可做真正實際上的科學的根據\n\n15:14.069 --> 15:23.518\n來維護我們的空氣品質然後保護保障國人的健康也呼籲一切對大家的這樣的一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個\n\n15:24.412 --> 15:50.705\n應該是這樣嗎?一公會可以嗎?我們回來研議一個月這每天都要蓋上一秒鐘不蓋空氣有的人身體就不好了兩秒鐘不蓋空氣身體就不好了而且我再最後講一句話站在你的這個位置曾經也是我們前衛生署的署長心臟科權威三家醫學中心的院長最後確診失智長達五年\n\n15:51.618 --> 16:06.323\n人都已經走了那空氣污染跟失智有直接的關係喔跟十大台灣的十大疾病有直接間接的關係喔所以維護國人健康不是只有衛生部環境部站在整體環境保護的立場\n\n16:07.827 --> 16:19.538\n我想這個速度跟與時俱進的這種作為要更積極啦一共其實已經要算時間是很長的啦因為每天都要付錢嘛每天都是要面對這個事情嘛一個月內嘛兩個事情而已好不好好謝謝謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.563,"end":14.403,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長還有交通部司長交通部司長交通公務運輸監理室的司長"},{"start":19.054,"end":44.296,"text":"我首先感謝我們的省次還有我們的彭部長針對主席今天所排的PM0.1相關的這些議題有公開的做一些正向的一些回應我們準備預計要來設這個兩站的PM0.1的監測站甚至於還有一些相關的一些比較積極的回應不過我還是覺得"},{"start":45.257,"end":48.38,"text":"可以再更具體一點因為過去我們從PM10一直到PM2.5我們說到這個剩下說到這個患者是更對人體有危害的細旋回力就PM2.5對不對"},{"start":63.334,"end":83.934,"text":"那P2.5當時也很多民間的一些朋友透過影片透過記者會透過很多的方式然後讓到最後政府來重視然後我們有效的到剛剛次長的一些報告裡面看到我們有明顯的不管BNT P2.5都有具體的這樣的下降的這樣的一個趨勢所以這個我們也必須要跟"},{"start":87.998,"end":106.911,"text":"環境部來做一個一定的程度的肯定但是當然也有相關的部位的這樣的一個機關來做相關配合包括我們過去教育部的這個空瓶齊等等等等諸如此類那我想是政府是一致的來面對這個事情然後共同的來分工然後來做處理"},{"start":108.232,"end":125.564,"text":"一樣現在我們面對到PM0.1的時候可能這個劑度要更快因為如果從PM10到PM0.1這是相近差了100倍然後超過細節微粒剛剛王志俊也有醫療的背景又特別提出這事情對人體的危害"},{"start":126.084,"end":143.233,"text":"更深層更加劇那當然也必須要有相關的一些依據來做我們整個施政應變的這樣的一個處理的方式所以我要特別提醒環境部我們不要在以過去剛剛面對到社會輿論針對重視PN2.5的情況之下"},{"start":146.482,"end":167.589,"text":"有時候很多還沒有得到正確的一些數據所以可能我們還必須要收集到一定完整的怎樣程度之後我們才來做這個有時候會為時已晚這個有時候也是一個民主進步國家不應該有的這樣的態度啦所以我是希望用歐盟現在包含世界衛生組織都有特別提到BN0.1"},{"start":169.329,"end":192.759,"text":"有什麼情況之下可以讓我們公部門動得更快收集的數據更多甚至我們可以超前部署來維護國人的身體健康因為畢竟我是從0610包含昨天也有一屆的先進包含王志興委員大家都非常關心那一屆從維護國人的健康的角度看到這種空氣的危害看到"},{"start":193.799,"end":215.697,"text":"這個PM0.1是叫做超細旋微粒有更深層的這樣的一個對身體的危害的情況之下所以我們的速度可能我們不敢講說100倍但是確實從PM2.5對照現在PM0.1那真的是我們可能要感人的速度要更快一些這是第一點那第二點"},{"start":216.818,"end":224.063,"text":"過去我們要治理這個沙塵暴的時候坦白講這叫霸凌紅白沙這霸凌紅白沙很多人覺得這是不可能改變的事因為整個河川的一個流向跟上游度所謂的積極攔路線破壞整體的水流的生態大家覺得這個事情是很難去做改善"},{"start":235.771,"end":238.052,"text":"但是最終最終我們從106年看到超過好幾天的1000維克利方米的情況之下最後最終也是我們現任的總統當時的行政院院長講了一句讓大家非常感動然後又配合"},{"start":251.298,"end":277.371,"text":"工部門的積極的這樣的一個處理所以我們從過去東北西東來臨的時候將近有60天的這個超過這個空氣品質非常惡劣的情況之下限縮到最後兩天甚至於包含確認度有三次的颱風破壞了原有的這些工滑那我還可以說在13天左右這代表說要做就不做了"},{"start":279.092,"end":306.491,"text":"再來就是剛才賴院長特別強調只要政府願意做 經費無上限只要政府願意做 就經費無上限這樣的一個魄力跟決心我想很多事情都可以去克服 改善的好 所以我現在就要就教請教次長現在全國我們所有的空瓶站地方先不算就我們環境部 轄管的空瓶站固定跟移動的總共有幾站"},{"start":307.679,"end":317.908,"text":"我們有78座的這個監測站這是中央的好78座監測站那固定是幾站移動是幾站移動車的部分我們有三部車站"},{"start":323.734,"end":344.454,"text":"OK 問監測師好沒關係 來各位很棒喔 我們那個監測車的部分一般的監測車就跟監測上一樣大概是12台那另外有光化學的監測車這個是移動的空品站對不對好 那我們的78座有這側固定的污染源的跟這移動的污染源比例是怎麼樣"},{"start":347.083,"end":372.626,"text":"我們其實分類上面我們是以人體暴露的角度來分類所以一般監測站就針對人體暴露人口比較多的地方去設置的這個是56個站大部分都是這種站交通的站比較少目前是6個站另外工業站目前是兩個站還有國家公園站有兩個還有背景站三個"},{"start":374.022,"end":399.434,"text":"依照人口數去設這個固定的空品站嘛對不對所以有56嘛然後其他工業區的等等等諸如此類嘛對不對然後交通監測站的設置的一個根據是什麼一個按照人口那一個是不是按照車輛車流量的密度車流量的密度嘛對不對所以車流量的密度會隨著車輛的增加它的密度也應該會相對增加嘛"},{"start":400.37,"end":419.529,"text":"如果從空的角度人口增加當然就是一個排放增加之外但就空間來看的話我不可能隨著那個人口數增加車站就無上限一直上升"},{"start":420.229,"end":447.932,"text":"你不用講到極端你講到極端就不對了是說隨著人口的增加基本上你空瓶站還是要佈建相對增加這是一定比例當然你設置的空間有限的情況之下你還是要想辦法去克服但是不是說無限的上升到極致也不可能對不對但是我是要提醒市長2021開始是生不如死的人口結構快速的轉變"},{"start":449.093,"end":471.532,"text":"所以有很多地方的縣市基本上它人口是快速的在下落就像我本縣就像你的故鄉雲林縣從一百零四年一直到現在你知道一點減少多少人口嗎不知道你都沒有關心你自己的故鄉所以你的故鄉中央部的空氣品質一直不是很好你知道嗎一點不見了六千人一點不見六千人"},{"start":475.999,"end":495.088,"text":"這樣的空品站的設置如果按照人口數先不談增加所以你不用去擔心那個極致的東西你反而是下降在下降的情況之下你空品站的部件你是不是要有重新盤整思考去做處理這其一啦好那我們現在討論交通策戰"},{"start":496.158,"end":516.386,"text":"那加上之後為什麼要請市長上來市長可不可以大肆跟我們講說一下說明一下三年就好還是你如果記得更清楚講五年都好台灣的整體的機動車韓電車啦韓工程車啦工車啦機器機車啦這五年是往上成長還是往下掉"},{"start":519.505,"end":544.55,"text":"跟我們報告TOTO的話應該是維護往上升維護往上升嘛對不對好那維護往上升如果依照剛剛我們市長所講的啦按人口數增加固定的空品站必須部件也要相對的增加那車輛持續在增加那個交通的監測站也一定是必要隨著增加才對嘛"},{"start":545.635,"end":550.057,"text":"這六站 中央轄管這六站已經維持幾年了不增不減請回答我一下好不好這六站"},{"start":557.589,"end":575.376,"text":"六月站的部分應該從那時候民國80年初的時候開始到現在民國80年初嘛對不對那市長你可不可以再答呼我一下80年一直到現在114年我剛剛講到全國的機動車成長比例弧度是不是可以大臣跟我們說明一下"},{"start":577.128,"end":593.339,"text":"跟委員報告一下大概每年成長都是微乎那如果說從80幾年到現在的話是有一定的數量那目前整個總數的部分我大概跟委員報告一下大概機車的部分不管是這一個燃油跟這一個電動的部分大概是1400多萬輛"},{"start":595.28,"end":616.288,"text":"然後這個小客車的部分 小型車輛 包括小貨車這些部分目前大概736萬輛然後這個大型車 大型車包括大貨車 大客車這些相關的部分大概也有30幾萬輛"},{"start":619.409,"end":628.133,"text":"那所以這個目前國內的一個大大小小的車輛加起來基本上是超過我們的這一個人口數對 超過人口數嘛 對不對已經超過2300萬嘛現金嘛 對不對那民國80年的時候"},{"start":634.264,"end":659.859,"text":"多少嘛大致的那時候你還沒有當市長各位有報這個數據我可能再查一下因為每年有微幅增加嘛對不對微幅增加可能0.5到1%嘛假設嘛80幾年到現在應該增加2、30%不會過吧不為過吧不為過不為過嘛對不對好那相對著我們80幾年前就是六站的交通加工品質監測站嘛然後20幾年後還是六站"},{"start":664.284,"end":666.809,"text":"這樣的比例對嗎?這樣監測出來的數據,夠科學嗎?請教一下,答覆我"},{"start":675.973,"end":696.215,"text":"過去的監測來講,我們發現了一些主要的污染物,包括PM2.0,PM10,還有一個很重要的就是臭氧臭氧在交通站事實上是測不太出來,因為有交通排放會有抵銷所以過去的著重在臭氧的污染跟懸浮微粒的污染那也是比較著重在一般車站的設置"},{"start":697.352,"end":721.187,"text":"不是啦,市長,剛剛有委員垂詢你們的時候,是垂詢市長嘛就是那個固定站在3樓,在頂樓,跟交通車站是在平面基本上所測出來的狀況就不一樣嘛,對不對那比較貼近的應該是在平面嘛那我是要先講,剛剛你答覆我嘛如果固定的,基本上按人口數嘛,的增加余火嘛,對不對好,那車輛,我就用這種邏輯來討論就好了"},{"start":725.901,"end":740.167,"text":"應該是要改善了啦應該是要更激起來面對啦應該二十幾年來不可能台灣這麼快速成長的這些車輛的總數已經超過台灣的總人口數的情況之下當然啦 你還可以把它細分出來"},{"start":741.908,"end":760.126,"text":"電動車的污染當然是低嘛你還是可以把它氣溫出來不過我相信二三十幾年來的電動車的比例基本上占全部增加車輛的比例它還是有一定的比例啦不過不過還是不會高於當時八十幾年前的"},{"start":760.746,"end":787.649,"text":"民國八十幾年前的那個車輛的總數啦扣掉電動車啦所以我是提醒今天我們是要面對更嚴峻的這個超細旋虎為力的對人體的危害所以我希望我希望我們的基本上的工具就叫做空氣秉直監測站不管你 而且這一個歐盟這邊也提供出來最主要最主要的來源是來自交通的污染源所以台灣"},{"start":789.543,"end":817.533,"text":"這個島嶼國家有兩千三百多萬輛的車輛在行駛在我們的土地上你的空品站就不可能維持在民國八十幾年的時候的數量然後提供出來的數據我就要向你急劇的挑戰了委員謝謝你的質疑 簡單講就這樣而已啊 瞭解 我知道那因為剛一開始有講說以前根本沒有人在關心PM1甚至PM0.1是啦 是啦 是啦 現在已經知道說PM0.1主要的成因就是"},{"start":819.18,"end":843.212,"text":"車輛移動這些所造成的嗎所以去調查監測也是歐盟跟國際的趨勢嗎你如果監測你怎麼知道還有數據你怎麼去研究你怎麼去找出對策所以當然這個部分我們也要與時俱進啦做一下調整好不好我請教回去之後我們再研議一下這個監測也一定要有一定的一定的一個就像我們要做相關研究data的資料你要採得足夠吧"},{"start":844.232,"end":864.644,"text":"對不對 你要怎麼去採取足夠的電腦資料可能你在部件上就不能依照民國80年前的這樣的一個部件來應付現在114年的狀態嘛我要表達的是這樣嘛就剛剛開場保守局講的 以前在PNP的時候大家都在討論PNP有時候很多人會說那是以後兩年沒了是不是"},{"start":867.852,"end":893.164,"text":"馬國領就講搞不清楚啊但是現在大家你跟他們講PM10、PM2.5可能大家都很清楚的嘛而且現在是醫界來主動的發起這樣的聲音從過去PM2.5的經驗所在然後歐盟也在202612月底就要入華了所以我今天是具體要跟次長講也跟次長講說可能我們要更積極一點空黃我們要大修了嘛"},{"start":893.624,"end":912.267,"text":"要不要順勢而為把TN0.1也一併納入考量這是其一嘛那其二你的交通這個監測站要不要擴大部件了那多少個部件才符合現在你要去採集到的這個Data資料可做真正實際上的科學的根據"},{"start":914.069,"end":923.518,"text":"來維護我們的空氣品質然後保護 保障國人的健康也呼籲一切對大家的這樣的一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個"},{"start":924.412,"end":950.705,"text":"應該是這樣嗎?一公會可以嗎?我們回來研議一個月這每天都要蓋上一秒鐘不蓋空氣有的人身體就不好了兩秒鐘不蓋空氣身體就不好了而且我再最後講一句話站在你的這個位置曾經也是我們前衛生署的署長心臟科權威三家醫學中心的院長最後確診失智長達五年"},{"start":951.618,"end":966.323,"text":"人都已經走了那空氣污染跟失智有直接的關係喔跟十大台灣的十大疾病有直接間接的關係喔所以維護國人健康不是只有衛生部環境部站在整體環境保護的立場"},{"start":967.827,"end":979.538,"text":"我想這個速度跟與時俱進的這種作為要更積極啦一共其實已經 要算時間是很長的啦因為每天都要付錢嘛 每天都是要面對這個事情嘛一個月內嘛 兩個事情而已 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時25分）謝謝主席，有請次長還有交通部公共運輸及監理司司長。"],["主席：有請次長、司長。"],["劉委員建國：首先我先感謝沈次長還有彭部長，針對主席今天所排的PM0.1相關議題有公開地做一些正向的回應，預計要來設兩站的PM0.1監測站，甚至還有相關一些比較積極的回應，不過我還是覺得可以再更具體一點，因為過去從PM10一直到PM2.5，我們縮到的範疇是對人體更有危害的細懸浮微粒PM2.5，這部分當時也有很多民間的朋友透過影片、透過記者會、透過很多的方式，到最後政府來重視，剛剛次長的報告裡面也有提到，PM10、PM2.5也都有明顯的下降趨勢，所以這部分我們必須要給環境部一定程度的肯定，當然也有相關部會機關來配合，包含過去教育部的空品旗等等諸如此類，我想政府是一致來面對這件事情，共同分工來做處理；一樣，現在我們面對到PM0.1，可能要更積極、速度更快，因為從PM10到PM0.1是將近差了100倍，也就是超細懸浮微粒，王正旭委員有醫療背景，剛剛他也特別提出這對人體的危害更深層、更加劇，當然也必須要有相關依據來進行整個施政應變的處理方式。","所以我要特別提醒環境部，我們不要再以過去剛面對到社會輿論重視PM2.5的情況之下，當時說因為還沒有得到正確數據，所以還必須要等蒐集到一定的完整程度之後才來做，這有時候會為時已晚，一個民主進步國家不應該有這樣的態度。現在包括歐盟及世界衛生組織都有特別提到PM0.1，在什麼樣的情況之下可以讓我們公部門動得更快，蒐集的速度更快、數據更多，甚至我們可以超前部署來維護國人的身體健康？畢竟我是從6月10日，包含昨天也有醫界先進、包含王正旭委員大家都非常關心，醫界從維護國人健康的角度，看到這種空氣的危害，PM0.1是叫做超細懸浮微粒，有更深層的對身體的危害，在這樣的情況之下，我們的速度可能……不敢講說有到100倍，但是確實從PM10對照PM2.5，對照現在PM0.1，我們的速度可能真的要更快一些，這是第一點。","第二點，過去我們要治理沙塵暴的時候，這叫做百年風吹砂，很多人也覺得這是不可能改變的事情，因為整個河川的流向，因上游集集攔河堰破壞了整體水流的生態，大家也覺得這件事情很難去改善，但是最終、最終，我們從106年看到超過好幾天的1,000微克/立方米的情況之下，最終也是我們現在的總統、當時的行政院院長講的一句讓大家非常感動，又配合公部門積極的處理，所以我們從過去東北季風來臨時將近有60天空氣品質非常惡劣的情況，限縮到2天，甚至去年度有3次的颱風，破壞了原有的這些工法，還可以縮在13天左右，這代表只是要不要做而已。再來一點就是，當時賴院長有特別強調：只要政府願意做，經費無上限！有這樣的一個魄力跟決心，我想很多事情都可以去克服、改善。","所以我現在就要請教次長，現在全國所有的空品站，地方先不算，就你們環境部轄管的空品站，固定跟移動的總共有幾站？"],["沈次長志修：我們有78座監測站，這是中央的。"],["劉委員建國：好，78座監測站，那固定式幾站、移動式幾站？"],["沈次長志修：移動車的部分我們有……我請監測司。"],["劉委員建國：好，沒關係。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，關於監測車的部分，一般的監測車就跟監測站一樣，是12臺，另外有光化學的監測車……"],["劉委員建國：這個是移動的空品站，對不對？"],["張司長順欽：對。"],["劉委員建國：那78座測固定污染源跟測移動污染源的比例是怎麼樣？"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，其實分類上面我們是以人體暴露的角度來分類，所以一般監測站就是針對人體暴露、人口比較多的地方設置，這是56個站，大部分都是這種站；交通的站比較少，目前是6個站；另外，工業站目前是2個站、國家公園站有2個、還有背景站3個。"],["劉委員建國：依照人口數去設固定的空品站，對不對？所以有56個，然後其他工業區等等諸如此類，對不對？而交通監測站的設置根據是什麼？一個按照人口，一個是不是按照車輛？"],["張司長順欽：車流量的密度……"],["劉委員建國：車流量的密度，對不對？所以車流量的密度隨著車輛的增加，它的密度也應該會相對增加，邏輯上應該是這樣，對不對？"],["張司長順欽：是。"],["劉委員建國：那人口數增加，你的空品站也會隨著增加，對不對、沒有錯嘛？"],["張司長順欽：如果從空污的角度，人口增加除了排放增加之外，就空間來看的話，我不可能隨著人口數增加，測站就無上限一直上升，房子會往上長……"],["劉委員建國：你不用講到極端，你講那個極端就不對了！是說隨著人口的增加，基本上空品站的布建還是要相對增加，這是一定比例。當然在設置空間有限的情況之下，你還是要想辦法去克服，但不是無限上升到極致，也不可能嘛，對不對？但是我要提醒次長，2021年開始是生不如死的人口結構快速轉變，所以有很多地方縣市的人口快速下降，就像我的本縣、就像你的故鄉雲林縣，從104年一直到現在，你知道一年減少多少人口嗎？不知道，你都沒有關心你自己的故鄉，所以你的故鄉、中南部的空氣品質一直不是很好！你知道嗎？一年不見了6,000人！這樣的空品、這樣的設置如果按照人口數，先不談增加，所以你不用去擔心那個極致的東西，反而是在下降的情況之下，空品站的布建是不是要重新盤整思考去做處理？這是其一。","我們先來討論交通測站，交通測站為什麼會請司長上來？司長，你可不可以大致跟我們說明一下，3年就好，還是你如果記得更清楚講5年都好，臺灣整體的機動車（含電車、工程車、公車、汽機車）這5年是往上成長還是往下掉？total。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，total的話應該是微幅往上升。"],["劉委員建國：微幅往上升嘛，對不對？"],["林司長福山：對。"],["劉委員建國：如果依照剛剛司長所講的，按人口數增加，固定空品站的布建必須也要相對增加，那車輛持續在增加，交通的監測站也勢必一定要隨著增加才對！中央轄管這6站已經維持幾年了，不增不減，請回答我一下，好不好？"],["張司長順欽：6個站的部分應該是從民國80年初的時候開始到現在。"],["劉委員建國：民國80年初嘛，對不對？","那司長可不可以再答復我一下，80年一直到現在114年，我剛剛講到全國機動車的成長比例幅度是不是可以大致上跟我們說明一下？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，大概每年都是微幅成長，如果從八十幾年到現在的話，是有一定的數量，目前整個總數的部分大概跟委員報告一下，機車不管是燃油或電動的部分，大概是一千四百多萬輛；小客車的部分，就是小型車輛、包括小貨車等等，目前大概736萬輛；大型車包括大貨車、大客車等等相關部分，大概也有三十幾萬輛；所以目前國內大大小小的車輛加起來基本上是超過我們的人口數。"],["劉委員建國：對，超過人口數嘛，對不對？現今已經超過2,300萬嘛，對不對？那民國80年的時候？"],["林司長福山：應該沒有那麼多。"],["劉委員建國：大致多少？那時候你還沒有當司長。"],["林司長福山：跟各位委員報告，這個數據我可能再查一下，因為……"],["劉委員建國：每年有微幅增加嘛，對不對？"],["林司長福山：對！"],["劉委員建國：微幅增加可能0.5%到1%，假設八十幾年到現在，應該增加20%、30%不為過吧？"],["林司長福山：不為過。"],["劉委員建國：不為過嘛，對不對？好，相對我們二十幾年前就是6站的交通品質監測站，然後二十幾年後還是6站，這樣的比例對嗎？這樣監測出來的數據夠科學嗎？請教一下，答復我。"],["張司長順欽：以過去的監測來講，我們發現了一些主要的污染物，包括PM2.5、PM10，還有一個很重要的就是臭氧，臭氧在交通站事實上測不太出來，因為交通排放會抵銷，所以過去著重在臭氧的污染跟懸浮微粒的污染，也是比較著重在一般測站的設置。"],["劉委員建國：不是啦，司長，剛剛有委員垂詢次長時提到，那個固定站在3樓、在頂樓跟交通測站是在平面，基本上測出來的狀況就不一了，對不對？比較貼近的應該是在平面。而你剛剛答復我，固定的基本上按人口數增加與否，對不對？車輛部分我就用這種邏輯來討論就好了，應該是要改善了啦、應該是要更積極來面對啦！在這二十幾年來臺灣車輛總數快速成長到已經超過臺灣總人口數的情況之下，當然你還可以把它細分出來，電動車的污染當然是低，你還是可以把它區分出來，不過我相信二、三十年來電動車占全部增加車輛雖然有一定的比例，不過扣掉電動車還是不會高於當初民國八十幾年前的車輛總數。","所以我是提醒，今天我們是要面對更嚴峻的超細懸浮微粒對人體的危害，所以我希望我們基本上的工具就叫做空氣品質監測站，而且歐盟這邊也提出最主要的來源是來自交通的污染源，所以臺灣這個島嶼國家有兩千三百多萬輛車行駛在我們的土地上，你的空品站這樣就不可能維持在民國八十幾年時候的數量，而提供出來的數據我就要向你挑戰！"],["沈次長志修：委員，謝謝你的質詢……"],["劉委員建國：簡單講，就這樣而已啦。"],["沈次長志修：了解，我知道。剛剛一開始就講，以前根本沒有人在關心PM1、甚至PM0.1，以前沒有嘛！"],["劉委員建國：是啦！"],["沈次長志修：現在已經知道PM0.1主要的成因就是車輛移動所造成的，所以去調查、監測也是歐盟跟國際的趨勢，沒有監測怎麼知道那個數據、怎麼可以去研究、怎麼可以去找出對策，所以這個部分我們當然也要與時俱進、做一下調整，回去之後我們再來研議一下。"],["劉委員建國：這個監測也要有一定的……就像我們要做相關研究，data的資料要採得足夠嘛，對不對？"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["劉委員建國：你要怎麼去採集足夠的data資料？可能你在布建上就不能依照民國80年前的布建來應付現在114年的狀態，我要表達的是這樣。"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛開場白就講，以前你講到PM10的時候大家還搞不清楚；講PM2.5的時候，還有人說那是下午兩點半嗎？還是有很多人搞不清楚！但是現在跟大家講PM10、PM2.5，可能大家都很會講、都很清楚，而且現在是醫界主動發起這樣的聲音，從過去PM10、PM2.5的經驗，然後歐盟也在2026年12月底就要入法了，所以我今天具體要跟次長及司長講的是，可能我們要更積極一點，空污法要大修了嘛，要不要順勢而為，把PM0.1也一併納入考量，這是其一嘛。","其二，你的交通監測站要不要擴大布建？多少的布建才符合現在你要去採集的data資料可做為真正實際上的科學根據，來維護我們的空氣品質，然後保障國人的健康，也符合醫界的一個發想跟期待嘛，應該要這樣做吧？"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["劉委員建國：一個月可以嗎？"],["沈次長志修：我們來研議，一個月。"],["劉委員建國：這是每天都要呼吸的空氣耶，有的人一秒鐘沒吸到空氣身體就不好了、兩秒鐘沒吸到空氣身體就不好了。","我最後再講一句話，站在你這個位置，曾經也是我們的前衛生署署長、心臟科權威、三家醫學中心的院長，最後確診失智長達5年，人都已經走了，空氣污染跟失智有直接的關係喔！跟臺灣的十大疾病有直接、間接的關係喔！所以維護國人健康不是只有衛福部，環境部站在整體環境保護的立場，我想在速度跟與時俱進的這種作為上應該要更積極啦！一個月的時間其實已經是很長的了，因為每天都要呼吸嘛，每天都要面對這個事情嘛，一個月內，好不好？"],["沈次長志修：好。"],["劉委員建國：我只有這兩個事情而已，好不好？"],["沈次長志修：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的發言，也謝謝次長跟司長的回應。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","下一位請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":178,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","麥玉珍","陳瑩","楊曜","廖偉翔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、交通部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部就「因應歐盟管制超細懸浮微粒\n（PM0.1），我國空污管制政策如何精進、提升，保障國人健康安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146302_00002"}}}