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{\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 586.229, \"end\": 586.33, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 586.33, \"end\": 586.35, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,712 --> 00:00:01,896\n謝謝主席我們請劉部長好請部長\n\n2\n00:00:09,245 --> 00:00:29,010\n來委員早部長好部長我們今天要討論這個去年8月剛剛制定上路的這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例我想這個條例其實牽涉很多部會包括內政部法務部訴發部NCC金管會等等非常需要橫向的聯繫但是整體來講這個所謂的詐騙這個詐欺犯罪其實牽涉的面向要討論的也非常的多從詐騙案件的受理\n\n3\n00:00:37,392 --> 00:00:53,489\n到法務部檢察官的起訴及徵訊法官的審判然後甚至是最重要的對大家來講最要緊的被害人的損害填補我想這四大面向都是需要討論不過從今天各委員提出來的版本然後法務部內政部的意見我這邊也是特別想就\n\n4\n00:00:57,633 --> 00:01:10,000\n47條的這個部分來跟這個部長就教也就是也就是我們這個這個法官的審判還有被害人損害填補的這些部分那47條部長當初這個47條這個文字在這裡我就不再念了您記得當時我們制定這一條條文的立法意旨是什麼嗎\n\n5\n00:01:24,418 --> 00:01:46,450\n請委員多指教一年以前這條其實要不然法務部可以講嗎署長您先來啦還是署長您要講我們最主要的意思就是要訪問被害人的財產的損失就是讓他的被害可以填補嘛對不對一個是這個嘛但其實還有另外一個目的法務部要不要講解一下沒有其他高見\n\n6\n00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:53,891\n好在我認為是這樣子啦沒關係啦沒關係部長我們真的尊重時間後面很多我們這個當時的目的還有因為詐騙很嚴重所以我們希望用重刑度要拉得比較重可是在犯罪情節當中每個人的角色不同所以如果\n\n7\n00:02:07,136 --> 00:02:25,129\n如果當時說啊他只是個車手的話那也許那我們呢也給他一個不同程度的良心的狀況所以當時在立法政策的時候是說如果你有自白再加上返還被害者的這個被害金額損害金額的話我們就讓你減輕其刑用寬柔並濟的政策來希望一方面鼓勵返還損失的財產詐騙的財產\n\n8\n00:02:34,056 --> 00:02:48,119\n另外一方面是讓有坦白的空間立法一直是這樣可是實際上從去年8月執行到現在來看的話我們從新聞上面來看其實法務部如果可以先請回沒有關係署長您可以自由反正我主要問部長我們從新聞上面來看的話其實很清楚現在出現了一種現象叫作叫戰守則\n\n9\n00:02:59,162 --> 00:03:22,759\n就是說我這個抓到了以後不然署長是不是有這樣的狀況新聞報導的是真的嗎也就是說我抓到通常抓到的是車手比較容易抓到犯罪集團的首腦比較難抓到嘛結果抓到車手以後他就告訴你說哈這一條犯罪繳交其犯罪所得而且自白那我就可以減輕其刑那個是逗點之後四個字減輕其刑所以每一個車手來就說\n\n10\n00:03:23,860 --> 00:03:36,014\n啊我承認我真的是齁這個不小心啦誤會啦但是齁我說的這件事情不過五十萬裡面喔我只收到百分之一啦所以我只有得到五千塊啦五千塊繳一繳我又自白了我就可以減輕期刑新聞報導都是這樣署長有這樣的情形嗎\n\n11\n00:03:41,420 --> 00:03:46,842\n確實是有這樣情形確實是有嘛所以本來是立法一旨好意區分刑度寬容並濟希望能夠讓更多的受害者得到補償希望讓這個犯罪者迷途知返結果反而變成是犯罪者的叫戰守則所以我們今天要來修這一條好那部長我再請問啦如果是這樣的話您現在看到剛剛署長已經說確實是有知道這個案件數有多少嗎\n\n12\n00:04:10,546 --> 00:04:33,360\n其實你剛剛說答案的案件數嗎對就是利用這一條的減刑的有統計嗎減刑要到法院減刑的部分可能就是在法院的部分才有這個數據現在目前看到這個的這個判例確實是這樣的判就是他自己本身對於他犯罪比如講他騙50萬他自己拿到只有5000塊用這5000塊來做處理\n\n13\n00:04:35,802 --> 00:04:58,669\n是啊是啊好啦我想這個因為時間的關係我們就不追這個數字反正署長已經說確實是有這樣的狀況了嘛那部長我也想請教一下那今天這個今天已經提出這個版本的委員喔有很多比如說他是現在既然我們現在的善意立法的政策的善意我們現在反而造成了犯罪的空間那麼\n\n14\n00:05:00,089 --> 00:05:15,530\n我們現在就乾脆全部收回這個善意所以現在的條文有些改成是要全數返還的全數返還的才可以有減刑全部一致改成全數返還的有委員的版本是這樣您贊同這個版本嗎\n\n15\n00:05:17,171 --> 00:05:42,039\n這個部分恐怕在後端的執行部分會有困擾所以我們是建議就是說第一個我們很多委員要回應民意這個良善的用意我們都支持但是在處理的程序當中我想我們還是必須要尊重法務部還有司法院他們在處理的過程當中怎麼樣會更好因為你全數返還這件事情如果有整個共犯結構可能涉及到整個的犯罪集團全數返還恐怕要10至20年以後那這樣子其實\n\n16\n00:05:45,300 --> 00:06:00,782\n跟我們原來要修改這個法律的這個良善用意呢可能就會有所偏差好我想是這樣因為等一下這個細部的討論我們在修法的時候還可以再一一辯證但是在這裡的話我們就先確認內政部的態度當時的立法用意\n\n17\n00:06:01,503 --> 00:06:26,054\n有協助追溯被害者的金額要求返還區分犯罪者犯刑不同而有不同的刑度量刑這是善意但現在如果一面全部關上這個大門就是把這個變成所有的人都是返還所有被害者的金額比如說這個車手假設假設他真的誠意悔改了你要他一個人交出50萬才有可能減刑\n\n18\n00:06:27,334 --> 00:06:54,099\n這是不是又太重把過去的扇門關上全部這樣是對的嗎所以我個人啦剛剛我們提出了一個修正動議喔我是把這個整個條文區分成兩個層次第一個的話是在審判中全身自白然後有犯罪所得自動繳交者得減輕其刑也就是說你做完了這兩個要件之後法院還是可以可以來量處要\n\n19\n00:06:55,479 --> 00:07:18,532\n會不要減刑期刑不像過去是直接就進入了一定減刑的部分這是第一個改變但後面的話是在驅分的第二階段就是在法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解的全部金額者才是直接列入到\n\n20\n00:07:19,452 --> 00:07:45,534\n直接的減輕或免除其刑我想這是我個人的意見啦我也已經提出了修正動議的版本送上來等一下我們修正的時候可以再討論所以最後啦剛剛既然知道內政部這邊還有法務部的方向我想再利用再一點點時間跳題講另外一個部分剛剛是法條修正的部分剛剛部長有講到我們的打詐儀表版的部分嘛\n\n21\n00:07:47,008 --> 00:08:13,155\n我想這個瀏覽人次現在是確實非常的多民眾也都會來看這個不過部長我個人在看這個的時候我實在是我們辦公室在看我們確實是有一點意見這個瀏覽人次這麼多的打詐儀表板你看它下面它這裡表達的這個資訊方式是6月6日截至今天6月23星期一的詐騙受理數\n\n22\n00:08:15,296 --> 00:08:19,442\n626件這沒問題嗎表示我們積極有很多案件然後接下來它示例的是財產損失金額高達2億6千多萬\n\n23\n00:08:26,274 --> 00:08:50,662\n沒關係我不是在跟你追究這個資訊的正確與否而是你在一個政府打詐的成效表上面你宣傳的是民眾的損失金額這到底是在宣揚政府做得好還是在幫詐騙集團說哈哈我騙到了好多錢這裡不是應該要把它變成是追還返還的被害金額表示政府把\n\n24\n00:08:51,562 --> 00:09:08,369\n被詐騙的金額追還了多少返還了多少這個才是政府的成績人們的有感嗎我們在處理有關165打詐儀表板是只要民眾報案的話我們表示說中間並沒有黑數就直接把它放上去那所以呢未來如果經過包括我們的檢警調單位出來有關於是返還多少錢的話在下面下面的一個統計資料就會出來\n\n25\n00:09:14,272 --> 00:09:43,821\n那這個是當天的就是前一天24小時的時候全台灣發生的是有多少那真正的這個財產損失金額是報案者的財產損失金額是不是真的是這樣子的話還是有待於要有經過一定的確認沒關係就是政策都可以討論嘛這個利益良善因為政府最宣傳這個所以我現在告訴你說我們其實看完了之後是這樣既然你也有追溯的追回的返還金額那那個返還金額要不要也放在更明顯一點的地方讓大家知道政府的努力\n\n26\n00:09:44,121 --> 00:09:46,350\n我想這是一個可以參考的地方謝謝委員指教我們會來修正\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n712\t1896\t謝謝主席 我們請劉部長好 請部長\n9245\t29010\t來 委員早部長好 部長我們今天要討論這個去年8月剛剛制定上路的這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例我想這個條例其實牽涉很多部會包括內政部 法務部 訴發部NCC 金管會等等非常需要橫向的聯繫但是整體來講這個所謂的詐騙這個詐欺犯罪其實牽涉的面向要討論的也非常的多從詐騙案件的受理\n37392\t53489\t到法務部檢察官的起訴及徵訊法官的審判然後甚至是最重要的對大家來講最要緊的被害人的損害填補我想這四大面向都是需要討論不過從今天各委員提出來的版本然後法務部內政部的意見我這邊也是特別想就\n57633\t70000\t47條的這個部分來跟這個部長就教也就是也就是我們這個這個法官的審判還有被害人損害填補的這些部分那47條部長當初這個47條這個文字在這裡我就不再念了您記得當時我們制定這一條條文的立法意旨是什麼嗎\n84418\t106450\t請委員多指教一年以前這條其實要不然法務部可以講嗎署長您先來啦還是署長您要講我們最主要的意思就是要訪問被害人的財產的損失就是讓他的被害可以填補嘛對不對一個是這個嘛但其實還有另外一個目的法務部要不要講解一下沒有其他高見\n110270\t113891\t好在我認為是這樣子啦沒關係啦沒關係部長我們真的尊重時間後面很多我們這個當時的目的還有因為詐騙很嚴重所以我們希望用重刑度要拉得比較重可是在犯罪情節當中每個人的角色不同所以如果\n127136\t145129\t如果當時說啊他只是個車手的話那也許那我們呢也給他一個不同程度的良心的狀況所以當時在立法政策的時候是說如果你有自白再加上返還被害者的這個被害金額損害金額的話我們就讓你減輕其刑用寬柔並濟的政策來希望一方面鼓勵返還損失的財產詐騙的財產\n154056\t168119\t另外一方面是讓有坦白的空間 立法一直是這樣可是實際上從去年8月執行到現在來看的話我們從新聞上面來看 其實法務部如果可以先請回沒有關係署長您可以自由 反正我主要問部長我們從新聞上面來看的話 其實很清楚現在出現了一種現象 叫作叫戰守則\n179162\t202759\t就是說我這個抓到了以後不然署長是不是有這樣的狀況新聞報導的是真的嗎也就是說我抓到通常抓到的是車手比較容易抓到犯罪集團的首腦比較難抓到嘛結果抓到車手以後他就告訴你說哈這一條犯罪繳交其犯罪所得而且自白那我就可以減輕其刑那個是逗點之後四個字減輕其刑所以每一個車手來就說\n203860\t216014\t啊 我承認 我真的是齁 這個不小心啦 誤會啦但是齁 我說的這件事情不過五十萬裡面喔 我只收到百分之一啦所以我只有得到五千塊啦五千塊繳一繳 我又自白了我就可以減輕期刑新聞報導都是這樣 署長 有這樣的情形嗎\n221420\t226842\t確實是有這樣情形確實是有嘛所以本來是立法一旨好意區分刑度寬容並濟希望能夠讓更多的受害者得到補償希望讓這個犯罪者迷途知返結果反而變成是犯罪者的叫戰守則所以我們今天要來修這一條好那部長我再請問啦如果是這樣的話您現在看到剛剛署長已經說確實是有知道這個案件數有多少嗎\n250546\t273360\t其實你剛剛說答案的案件數嗎對就是利用這一條的減刑的有統計嗎減刑要到法院減刑的部分可能就是在法院的部分才有這個數據現在目前看到這個的這個判例確實是這樣的判就是他自己本身對於他犯罪比如講他騙50萬他自己拿到只有5000塊用這5000塊來做處理\n275802\t298669\t是啊是啊好啦我想這個因為時間的關係我們就不追這個數字反正署長已經說確實是有這樣的狀況了嘛那部長我也想請教一下那今天這個今天已經提出這個版本的委員喔有很多比如說他是現在既然我們現在的善意立法的政策的善意我們現在反而造成了犯罪的空間那麼\n300089\t315530\t我們現在就乾脆全部收回這個善意所以現在的條文有些改成是要全數返還的全數返還的才可以有減刑全部一致改成全數返還的有委員的版本是這樣您贊同這個版本嗎\n317171\t342039\t這個部分恐怕在後端的執行部分會有困擾所以我們是建議就是說第一個我們很多委員要回應民意這個良善的用意我們都支持但是在處理的程序當中我想我們還是必須要尊重法務部還有司法院他們在處理的過程當中怎麼樣會更好因為你全數返還這件事情如果有整個共犯結構可能涉及到整個的犯罪集團全數返還恐怕要10至20年以後那這樣子其實\n345300\t360782\t跟我們原來要修改這個法律的這個良善用意呢可能就會有所偏差好我想是這樣因為等一下這個細部的討論我們在修法的時候還可以再一一辯證但是在這裡的話我們就先確認內政部的態度當時的立法用意\n361503\t386054\t有協助追溯被害者的金額要求返還區分犯罪者犯刑不同而有不同的刑度量刑這是善意但現在如果一面全部關上這個大門就是把這個變成所有的人都是返還所有被害者的金額比如說這個車手假設假設他真的誠意悔改了你要他一個人交出50萬才有可能減刑\n387334\t414099\t這是不是又太重把過去的扇門關上全部這樣是對的嗎所以我個人啦剛剛我們提出了一個修正動議喔我是把這個整個條文區分成兩個層次第一個的話是在審判中全身自白然後有犯罪所得自動繳交者得減輕其刑也就是說你做完了這兩個要件之後法院還是可以可以來量處要\n415479\t438532\t會不要減刑期刑不像過去是直接就進入了一定減刑的部分這是第一個改變但後面的話是在驅分的第二階段就是在法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解的全部金額者才是直接列入到\n439452\t465534\t直接的減輕或免除其刑我想這是我個人的意見啦我也已經提出了修正動議的版本送上來等一下我們修正的時候可以再討論所以最後啦剛剛既然知道內政部這邊還有法務部的方向我想再利用再一點點時間跳題講另外一個部分剛剛是法條修正的部分剛剛部長有講到我們的打詐儀表版的部分嘛\n467008\t493155\t我想這個瀏覽人次現在是確實非常的多民眾也都會來看這個不過部長我個人在看這個的時候我實在是我們辦公室在看我們確實是有一點意見這個瀏覽人次這麼多的打詐儀表板你看它下面它這裡表達的這個資訊方式是6月6日截至今天6月23星期一的詐騙受理數\n495296\t499442\t626件 這沒問題嗎表示我們積極有很多案件然後接下來它示例的是財產損失金額高達2億6千多萬\n506274\t530662\t沒關係我不是在跟你追究這個資訊的正確與否而是你在一個政府打詐的成效表上面你宣傳的是民眾的損失金額這到底是在宣揚政府做得好還是在幫詐騙集團說哈哈我騙到了好多錢這裡不是應該要把它變成是追還返還的被害金額表示政府把\n531562\t548369\t被詐騙的金額追還了多少 返還了多少這個才是政府的成績人們的有感嗎我們在處理有關165打詐儀表板是只要民眾報案的話我們表示說中間並沒有黑數就直接把它放上去那所以呢未來如果經過包括我們的檢警調單位出來有關於是返還多少錢的話在下面 下面的一個統計資料就會出來\n554272\t583821\t那這個是當天的就是前一天24小時的時候全台灣發生的是有多少那真正的這個財產損失金額是報案者的財產損失金額是不是真的是這樣子的話還是有待於要有經過一定的確認沒關係就是政策都可以討論嘛這個利益良善因為政府最宣傳這個所以我現在告訴你說我們其實看完了之後是這樣既然你也有追溯的追回的返還金額那那個返還金額要不要也放在更明顯一點的地方讓大家知道政府的努力\n584121\t586350\t我想這是一個可以參考的地方謝謝委員指教 我們會來修正\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請劉部長好 請部長\n來 委員早部長好 部長我們今天要討論這個去年8月剛剛制定上路的這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例我想這個條例其實牽涉很多部會包括內政部 法務部 訴發部NCC 金管會等等非常需要橫向的聯繫但是整體來講這個所謂的詐騙這個詐欺犯罪其實牽涉的面向要討論的也非常的多從詐騙案件的受理\n到法務部檢察官的起訴及徵訊法官的審判然後甚至是最重要的對大家來講最要緊的被害人的損害填補我想這四大面向都是需要討論不過從今天各委員提出來的版本然後法務部內政部的意見我這邊也是特別想就\n47條的這個部分來跟這個部長就教也就是也就是我們這個這個法官的審判還有被害人損害填補的這些部分那47條部長當初這個47條這個文字在這裡我就不再念了您記得當時我們制定這一條條文的立法意旨是什麼嗎\n請委員多指教一年以前這條其實要不然法務部可以講嗎署長您先來啦還是署長您要講我們最主要的意思就是要訪問被害人的財產的損失就是讓他的被害可以填補嘛對不對一個是這個嘛但其實還有另外一個目的法務部要不要講解一下沒有其他高見\n好在我認為是這樣子啦沒關係啦沒關係部長我們真的尊重時間後面很多我們這個當時的目的還有因為詐騙很嚴重所以我們希望用重刑度要拉得比較重可是在犯罪情節當中每個人的角色不同所以如果\n如果當時說啊他只是個車手的話那也許那我們呢也給他一個不同程度的良心的狀況所以當時在立法政策的時候是說如果你有自白再加上返還被害者的這個被害金額損害金額的話我們就讓你減輕其刑用寬柔並濟的政策來希望一方面鼓勵返還損失的財產詐騙的財產\n另外一方面是讓有坦白的空間 立法一直是這樣可是實際上從去年8月執行到現在來看的話我們從新聞上面來看 其實法務部如果可以先請回沒有關係署長您可以自由 反正我主要問部長我們從新聞上面來看的話 其實很清楚現在出現了一種現象 叫作叫戰守則\n就是說我這個抓到了以後不然署長是不是有這樣的狀況新聞報導的是真的嗎也就是說我抓到通常抓到的是車手比較容易抓到犯罪集團的首腦比較難抓到嘛結果抓到車手以後他就告訴你說哈這一條犯罪繳交其犯罪所得而且自白那我就可以減輕其刑那個是逗點之後四個字減輕其刑所以每一個車手來就說\n啊 我承認 我真的是齁 這個不小心啦 誤會啦但是齁 我說的這件事情不過五十萬裡面喔 我只收到百分之一啦所以我只有得到五千塊啦五千塊繳一繳 我又自白了我就可以減輕期刑新聞報導都是這樣 署長 有這樣的情形嗎\n確實是有這樣情形確實是有嘛所以本來是立法一旨好意區分刑度寬容並濟希望能夠讓更多的受害者得到補償希望讓這個犯罪者迷途知返結果反而變成是犯罪者的叫戰守則所以我們今天要來修這一條好那部長我再請問啦如果是這樣的話您現在看到剛剛署長已經說確實是有知道這個案件數有多少嗎\n其實你剛剛說答案的案件數嗎對就是利用這一條的減刑的有統計嗎減刑要到法院減刑的部分可能就是在法院的部分才有這個數據現在目前看到這個的這個判例確實是這樣的判就是他自己本身對於他犯罪比如講他騙50萬他自己拿到只有5000塊用這5000塊來做處理\n是啊是啊好啦我想這個因為時間的關係我們就不追這個數字反正署長已經說確實是有這樣的狀況了嘛那部長我也想請教一下那今天這個今天已經提出這個版本的委員喔有很多比如說他是現在既然我們現在的善意立法的政策的善意我們現在反而造成了犯罪的空間那麼\n我們現在就乾脆全部收回這個善意所以現在的條文有些改成是要全數返還的全數返還的才可以有減刑全部一致改成全數返還的有委員的版本是這樣您贊同這個版本嗎\n這個部分恐怕在後端的執行部分會有困擾所以我們是建議就是說第一個我們很多委員要回應民意這個良善的用意我們都支持但是在處理的程序當中我想我們還是必須要尊重法務部還有司法院他們在處理的過程當中怎麼樣會更好因為你全數返還這件事情如果有整個共犯結構可能涉及到整個的犯罪集團全數返還恐怕要10至20年以後那這樣子其實\n跟我們原來要修改這個法律的這個良善用意呢可能就會有所偏差好我想是這樣因為等一下這個細部的討論我們在修法的時候還可以再一一辯證但是在這裡的話我們就先確認內政部的態度當時的立法用意\n有協助追溯被害者的金額要求返還區分犯罪者犯刑不同而有不同的刑度量刑這是善意但現在如果一面全部關上這個大門就是把這個變成所有的人都是返還所有被害者的金額比如說這個車手假設假設他真的誠意悔改了你要他一個人交出50萬才有可能減刑\n這是不是又太重把過去的扇門關上全部這樣是對的嗎所以我個人啦剛剛我們提出了一個修正動議喔我是把這個整個條文區分成兩個層次第一個的話是在審判中全身自白然後有犯罪所得自動繳交者得減輕其刑也就是說你做完了這兩個要件之後法院還是可以可以來量處要\n會不要減刑期刑不像過去是直接就進入了一定減刑的部分這是第一個改變但後面的話是在驅分的第二階段就是在法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解的全部金額者才是直接列入到\n直接的減輕或免除其刑我想這是我個人的意見啦我也已經提出了修正動議的版本送上來等一下我們修正的時候可以再討論所以最後啦剛剛既然知道內政部這邊還有法務部的方向我想再利用再一點點時間跳題講另外一個部分剛剛是法條修正的部分剛剛部長有講到我們的打詐儀表版的部分嘛\n我想這個瀏覽人次現在是確實非常的多民眾也都會來看這個不過部長我個人在看這個的時候我實在是我們辦公室在看我們確實是有一點意見這個瀏覽人次這麼多的打詐儀表板你看它下面它這裡表達的這個資訊方式是6月6日截至今天6月23星期一的詐騙受理數\n626件 這沒問題嗎表示我們積極有很多案件然後接下來它示例的是財產損失金額高達2億6千多萬\n沒關係我不是在跟你追究這個資訊的正確與否而是你在一個政府打詐的成效表上面你宣傳的是民眾的損失金額這到底是在宣揚政府做得好還是在幫詐騙集團說哈哈我騙到了好多錢這裡不是應該要把它變成是追還返還的被害金額表示政府把\n被詐騙的金額追還了多少 返還了多少這個才是政府的成績人們的有感嗎我們在處理有關165打詐儀表板是只要民眾報案的話我們表示說中間並沒有黑數就直接把它放上去那所以呢未來如果經過包括我們的檢警調單位出來有關於是返還多少錢的話在下面 下面的一個統計資料就會出來\n那這個是當天的就是前一天24小時的時候全台灣發生的是有多少那真正的這個財產損失金額是報案者的財產損失金額是不是真的是這樣子的話還是有待於要有經過一定的確認沒關係就是政策都可以討論嘛這個利益良善因為政府最宣傳這個所以我現在告訴你說我們其實看完了之後是這樣既然你也有追溯的追回的返還金額那那個返還金額要不要也放在更明顯一點的地方讓大家知道政府的努力\n我想這是一個可以參考的地方謝謝委員指教 我們會來修正\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.712 --> 00:01.896\n謝謝主席我們請劉部長好請部長\n\n00:09.245 --> 00:29.010\n來委員早部長好部長我們今天要討論這個去年8月剛剛制定上路的這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例我想這個條例其實牽涉很多部會包括內政部法務部訴發部NCC金管會等等非常需要橫向的聯繫但是整體來講這個所謂的詐騙這個詐欺犯罪其實牽涉的面向要討論的也非常的多從詐騙案件的受理\n\n00:37.392 --> 00:53.489\n到法務部檢察官的起訴及徵訊法官的審判然後甚至是最重要的對大家來講最要緊的被害人的損害填補我想這四大面向都是需要討論不過從今天各委員提出來的版本然後法務部內政部的意見我這邊也是特別想就\n\n00:57.633 --> 01:10.000\n47條的這個部分來跟這個部長就教也就是也就是我們這個這個法官的審判還有被害人損害填補的這些部分那47條部長當初這個47條這個文字在這裡我就不再念了您記得當時我們制定這一條條文的立法意旨是什麼嗎\n\n01:24.418 --> 01:46.450\n請委員多指教一年以前這條其實要不然法務部可以講嗎署長您先來啦還是署長您要講我們最主要的意思就是要訪問被害人的財產的損失就是讓他的被害可以填補嘛對不對一個是這個嘛但其實還有另外一個目的法務部要不要講解一下沒有其他高見\n\n01:50.270 --> 01:53.891\n好在我認為是這樣子啦沒關係啦沒關係部長我們真的尊重時間後面很多我們這個當時的目的還有因為詐騙很嚴重所以我們希望用重刑度要拉得比較重可是在犯罪情節當中每個人的角色不同所以如果\n\n02:07.136 --> 02:25.129\n如果當時說啊他只是個車手的話那也許那我們呢也給他一個不同程度的良心的狀況所以當時在立法政策的時候是說如果你有自白再加上返還被害者的這個被害金額損害金額的話我們就讓你減輕其刑用寬柔並濟的政策來希望一方面鼓勵返還損失的財產詐騙的財產\n\n02:34.056 --> 02:48.119\n另外一方面是讓有坦白的空間立法一直是這樣可是實際上從去年8月執行到現在來看的話我們從新聞上面來看其實法務部如果可以先請回沒有關係署長您可以自由反正我主要問部長我們從新聞上面來看的話其實很清楚現在出現了一種現象叫作叫戰守則\n\n02:59.162 --> 03:22.759\n就是說我這個抓到了以後不然署長是不是有這樣的狀況新聞報導的是真的嗎也就是說我抓到通常抓到的是車手比較容易抓到犯罪集團的首腦比較難抓到嘛結果抓到車手以後他就告訴你說哈這一條犯罪繳交其犯罪所得而且自白那我就可以減輕其刑那個是逗點之後四個字減輕其刑所以每一個車手來就說\n\n03:23.860 --> 03:36.014\n啊我承認我真的是齁這個不小心啦誤會啦但是齁我說的這件事情不過五十萬裡面喔我只收到百分之一啦所以我只有得到五千塊啦五千塊繳一繳我又自白了我就可以減輕期刑新聞報導都是這樣署長有這樣的情形嗎\n\n03:41.420 --> 03:46.842\n確實是有這樣情形確實是有嘛所以本來是立法一旨好意區分刑度寬容並濟希望能夠讓更多的受害者得到補償希望讓這個犯罪者迷途知返結果反而變成是犯罪者的叫戰守則所以我們今天要來修這一條好那部長我再請問啦如果是這樣的話您現在看到剛剛署長已經說確實是有知道這個案件數有多少嗎\n\n04:10.546 --> 04:33.360\n其實你剛剛說答案的案件數嗎對就是利用這一條的減刑的有統計嗎減刑要到法院減刑的部分可能就是在法院的部分才有這個數據現在目前看到這個的這個判例確實是這樣的判就是他自己本身對於他犯罪比如講他騙50萬他自己拿到只有5000塊用這5000塊來做處理\n\n04:35.802 --> 04:58.669\n是啊是啊好啦我想這個因為時間的關係我們就不追這個數字反正署長已經說確實是有這樣的狀況了嘛那部長我也想請教一下那今天這個今天已經提出這個版本的委員喔有很多比如說他是現在既然我們現在的善意立法的政策的善意我們現在反而造成了犯罪的空間那麼\n\n05:00.089 --> 05:15.530\n我們現在就乾脆全部收回這個善意所以現在的條文有些改成是要全數返還的全數返還的才可以有減刑全部一致改成全數返還的有委員的版本是這樣您贊同這個版本嗎\n\n05:17.171 --> 05:42.039\n這個部分恐怕在後端的執行部分會有困擾所以我們是建議就是說第一個我們很多委員要回應民意這個良善的用意我們都支持但是在處理的程序當中我想我們還是必須要尊重法務部還有司法院他們在處理的過程當中怎麼樣會更好因為你全數返還這件事情如果有整個共犯結構可能涉及到整個的犯罪集團全數返還恐怕要10至20年以後那這樣子其實\n\n05:45.300 --> 06:00.782\n跟我們原來要修改這個法律的這個良善用意呢可能就會有所偏差好我想是這樣因為等一下這個細部的討論我們在修法的時候還可以再一一辯證但是在這裡的話我們就先確認內政部的態度當時的立法用意\n\n06:01.503 --> 06:26.054\n有協助追溯被害者的金額要求返還區分犯罪者犯刑不同而有不同的刑度量刑這是善意但現在如果一面全部關上這個大門就是把這個變成所有的人都是返還所有被害者的金額比如說這個車手假設假設他真的誠意悔改了你要他一個人交出50萬才有可能減刑\n\n06:27.334 --> 06:54.099\n這是不是又太重把過去的扇門關上全部這樣是對的嗎所以我個人啦剛剛我們提出了一個修正動議喔我是把這個整個條文區分成兩個層次第一個的話是在審判中全身自白然後有犯罪所得自動繳交者得減輕其刑也就是說你做完了這兩個要件之後法院還是可以可以來量處要\n\n06:55.479 --> 07:18.532\n會不要減刑期刑不像過去是直接就進入了一定減刑的部分這是第一個改變但後面的話是在驅分的第二階段就是在法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解的全部金額者才是直接列入到\n\n07:19.452 --> 07:45.534\n直接的減輕或免除其刑我想這是我個人的意見啦我也已經提出了修正動議的版本送上來等一下我們修正的時候可以再討論所以最後啦剛剛既然知道內政部這邊還有法務部的方向我想再利用再一點點時間跳題講另外一個部分剛剛是法條修正的部分剛剛部長有講到我們的打詐儀表版的部分嘛\n\n07:47.008 --> 08:13.155\n我想這個瀏覽人次現在是確實非常的多民眾也都會來看這個不過部長我個人在看這個的時候我實在是我們辦公室在看我們確實是有一點意見這個瀏覽人次這麼多的打詐儀表板你看它下面它這裡表達的這個資訊方式是6月6日截至今天6月23星期一的詐騙受理數\n\n08:15.296 --> 08:19.442\n626件這沒問題嗎表示我們積極有很多案件然後接下來它示例的是財產損失金額高達2億6千多萬\n\n08:26.274 --> 08:50.662\n沒關係我不是在跟你追究這個資訊的正確與否而是你在一個政府打詐的成效表上面你宣傳的是民眾的損失金額這到底是在宣揚政府做得好還是在幫詐騙集團說哈哈我騙到了好多錢這裡不是應該要把它變成是追還返還的被害金額表示政府把\n\n08:51.562 --> 09:08.369\n被詐騙的金額追還了多少返還了多少這個才是政府的成績人們的有感嗎我們在處理有關165打詐儀表板是只要民眾報案的話我們表示說中間並沒有黑數就直接把它放上去那所以呢未來如果經過包括我們的檢警調單位出來有關於是返還多少錢的話在下面下面的一個統計資料就會出來\n\n09:14.272 --> 09:43.821\n那這個是當天的就是前一天24小時的時候全台灣發生的是有多少那真正的這個財產損失金額是報案者的財產損失金額是不是真的是這樣子的話還是有待於要有經過一定的確認沒關係就是政策都可以討論嘛這個利益良善因為政府最宣傳這個所以我現在告訴你說我們其實看完了之後是這樣既然你也有追溯的追回的返還金額那那個返還金額要不要也放在更明顯一點的地方讓大家知道政府的努力\n\n09:44.121 --> 09:46.350\n我想這是一個可以參考的地方謝謝委員指教我們會來修正\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.712,"end":1.896,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請劉部長好 請部長"},{"start":9.245,"end":29.01,"text":"來 委員早部長好 部長我們今天要討論這個去年8月剛剛制定上路的這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例我想這個條例其實牽涉很多部會包括內政部 法務部 訴發部NCC 金管會等等非常需要橫向的聯繫但是整體來講這個所謂的詐騙這個詐欺犯罪其實牽涉的面向要討論的也非常的多從詐騙案件的受理"},{"start":37.392,"end":53.489,"text":"到法務部檢察官的起訴及徵訊法官的審判然後甚至是最重要的對大家來講最要緊的被害人的損害填補我想這四大面向都是需要討論不過從今天各委員提出來的版本然後法務部內政部的意見我這邊也是特別想就"},{"start":57.633,"end":70,"text":"47條的這個部分來跟這個部長就教也就是也就是我們這個這個法官的審判還有被害人損害填補的這些部分那47條部長當初這個47條這個文字在這裡我就不再念了您記得當時我們制定這一條條文的立法意旨是什麼嗎"},{"start":84.418,"end":106.45,"text":"請委員多指教一年以前這條其實要不然法務部可以講嗎署長您先來啦還是署長您要講我們最主要的意思就是要訪問被害人的財產的損失就是讓他的被害可以填補嘛對不對一個是這個嘛但其實還有另外一個目的法務部要不要講解一下沒有其他高見"},{"start":110.27,"end":113.891,"text":"好在我認為是這樣子啦沒關係啦沒關係部長我們真的尊重時間後面很多我們這個當時的目的還有因為詐騙很嚴重所以我們希望用重刑度要拉得比較重可是在犯罪情節當中每個人的角色不同所以如果"},{"start":127.136,"end":145.129,"text":"如果當時說啊他只是個車手的話那也許那我們呢也給他一個不同程度的良心的狀況所以當時在立法政策的時候是說如果你有自白再加上返還被害者的這個被害金額損害金額的話我們就讓你減輕其刑用寬柔並濟的政策來希望一方面鼓勵返還損失的財產詐騙的財產"},{"start":154.056,"end":168.119,"text":"另外一方面是讓有坦白的空間 立法一直是這樣可是實際上從去年8月執行到現在來看的話我們從新聞上面來看 其實法務部如果可以先請回沒有關係署長您可以自由 反正我主要問部長我們從新聞上面來看的話 其實很清楚現在出現了一種現象 叫作叫戰守則"},{"start":179.162,"end":202.759,"text":"就是說我這個抓到了以後不然署長是不是有這樣的狀況新聞報導的是真的嗎也就是說我抓到通常抓到的是車手比較容易抓到犯罪集團的首腦比較難抓到嘛結果抓到車手以後他就告訴你說哈這一條犯罪繳交其犯罪所得而且自白那我就可以減輕其刑那個是逗點之後四個字減輕其刑所以每一個車手來就說"},{"start":203.86,"end":216.014,"text":"啊 我承認 我真的是齁 這個不小心啦 誤會啦但是齁 我說的這件事情不過五十萬裡面喔 我只收到百分之一啦所以我只有得到五千塊啦五千塊繳一繳 我又自白了我就可以減輕期刑新聞報導都是這樣 署長 有這樣的情形嗎"},{"start":221.42,"end":226.842,"text":"確實是有這樣情形確實是有嘛所以本來是立法一旨好意區分刑度寬容並濟希望能夠讓更多的受害者得到補償希望讓這個犯罪者迷途知返結果反而變成是犯罪者的叫戰守則所以我們今天要來修這一條好那部長我再請問啦如果是這樣的話您現在看到剛剛署長已經說確實是有知道這個案件數有多少嗎"},{"start":250.546,"end":273.36,"text":"其實你剛剛說答案的案件數嗎對就是利用這一條的減刑的有統計嗎減刑要到法院減刑的部分可能就是在法院的部分才有這個數據現在目前看到這個的這個判例確實是這樣的判就是他自己本身對於他犯罪比如講他騙50萬他自己拿到只有5000塊用這5000塊來做處理"},{"start":275.802,"end":298.669,"text":"是啊是啊好啦我想這個因為時間的關係我們就不追這個數字反正署長已經說確實是有這樣的狀況了嘛那部長我也想請教一下那今天這個今天已經提出這個版本的委員喔有很多比如說他是現在既然我們現在的善意立法的政策的善意我們現在反而造成了犯罪的空間那麼"},{"start":300.089,"end":315.53,"text":"我們現在就乾脆全部收回這個善意所以現在的條文有些改成是要全數返還的全數返還的才可以有減刑全部一致改成全數返還的有委員的版本是這樣您贊同這個版本嗎"},{"start":317.171,"end":342.039,"text":"這個部分恐怕在後端的執行部分會有困擾所以我們是建議就是說第一個我們很多委員要回應民意這個良善的用意我們都支持但是在處理的程序當中我想我們還是必須要尊重法務部還有司法院他們在處理的過程當中怎麼樣會更好因為你全數返還這件事情如果有整個共犯結構可能涉及到整個的犯罪集團全數返還恐怕要10至20年以後那這樣子其實"},{"start":345.3,"end":360.782,"text":"跟我們原來要修改這個法律的這個良善用意呢可能就會有所偏差好我想是這樣因為等一下這個細部的討論我們在修法的時候還可以再一一辯證但是在這裡的話我們就先確認內政部的態度當時的立法用意"},{"start":361.503,"end":386.054,"text":"有協助追溯被害者的金額要求返還區分犯罪者犯刑不同而有不同的刑度量刑這是善意但現在如果一面全部關上這個大門就是把這個變成所有的人都是返還所有被害者的金額比如說這個車手假設假設他真的誠意悔改了你要他一個人交出50萬才有可能減刑"},{"start":387.334,"end":414.099,"text":"這是不是又太重把過去的扇門關上全部這樣是對的嗎所以我個人啦剛剛我們提出了一個修正動議喔我是把這個整個條文區分成兩個層次第一個的話是在審判中全身自白然後有犯罪所得自動繳交者得減輕其刑也就是說你做完了這兩個要件之後法院還是可以可以來量處要"},{"start":415.479,"end":438.532,"text":"會不要減刑期刑不像過去是直接就進入了一定減刑的部分這是第一個改變但後面的話是在驅分的第二階段就是在法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解的全部金額者才是直接列入到"},{"start":439.452,"end":465.534,"text":"直接的減輕或免除其刑我想這是我個人的意見啦我也已經提出了修正動議的版本送上來等一下我們修正的時候可以再討論所以最後啦剛剛既然知道內政部這邊還有法務部的方向我想再利用再一點點時間跳題講另外一個部分剛剛是法條修正的部分剛剛部長有講到我們的打詐儀表版的部分嘛"},{"start":467.008,"end":493.155,"text":"我想這個瀏覽人次現在是確實非常的多民眾也都會來看這個不過部長我個人在看這個的時候我實在是我們辦公室在看我們確實是有一點意見這個瀏覽人次這麼多的打詐儀表板你看它下面它這裡表達的這個資訊方式是6月6日截至今天6月23星期一的詐騙受理數"},{"start":495.296,"end":499.442,"text":"626件 這沒問題嗎表示我們積極有很多案件然後接下來它示例的是財產損失金額高達2億6千多萬"},{"start":506.274,"end":530.662,"text":"沒關係我不是在跟你追究這個資訊的正確與否而是你在一個政府打詐的成效表上面你宣傳的是民眾的損失金額這到底是在宣揚政府做得好還是在幫詐騙集團說哈哈我騙到了好多錢這裡不是應該要把它變成是追還返還的被害金額表示政府把"},{"start":531.562,"end":548.369,"text":"被詐騙的金額追還了多少 返還了多少這個才是政府的成績人們的有感嗎我們在處理有關165打詐儀表板是只要民眾報案的話我們表示說中間並沒有黑數就直接把它放上去那所以呢未來如果經過包括我們的檢警調單位出來有關於是返還多少錢的話在下面 下面的一個統計資料就會出來"},{"start":554.272,"end":583.821,"text":"那這個是當天的就是前一天24小時的時候全台灣發生的是有多少那真正的這個財產損失金額是報案者的財產損失金額是不是真的是這樣子的話還是有待於要有經過一定的確認沒關係就是政策都可以討論嘛這個利益良善因為政府最宣傳這個所以我現在告訴你說我們其實看完了之後是這樣既然你也有追溯的追回的返還金額那那個返還金額要不要也放在更明顯一點的地方讓大家知道政府的努力"},{"start":584.121,"end":586.35,"text":"我想這是一個可以參考的地方謝謝委員指教 我們會來修正"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":238,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時37分）謝謝主席，請劉部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。我們今天要討論去年8月剛剛制定上路的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，這個條例其實牽涉很多部會，包括內政部、法務部、數發部、NCC、金管會等等，非常需要橫向聯繫。整體來講，所謂的詐騙或詐欺犯罪，其實牽涉的面向要討論的也非常多，從詐騙案件的受理到法務部檢察官的起訴及偵訊、法官的審判，然後是最重要的，對大家來講最要緊的就是被害人的損害填補，我想這四大面向都需要討論。從今天各委員提出來的版本，以及法務部、內政部的意見，我特別想就第四十七條的部分來跟部長就教，也就是法官的審判以及被害人損害填補的這些部分。第四十七條的文字在這裡，我就不再唸了，您記得當時我們制定這一條條文的立法意旨是什麼嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：請委員多指教，因為那是一年以前……"],["蘇委員巧慧：要不然法務部可以講嗎？還是署長您要講？"],["張署長榮興：最主要的意旨就是要返還被害人的財產損失。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["張署長榮興：就是讓他的被害可以取得……"],["蘇委員巧慧：讓被害可以填補嘛，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對，填補他的被害，最主要的用意是這個。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但其實還有另外一個目的，法務部要不要講解一下？你們沒有其他高見嗎？好，沒關係。在我認為當時的目的還有一個，因為詐騙很嚴重，所以我們希望刑度要拉得比較重，可是在犯罪情節當中，每個人的角色不同，當時說如果他只是個車手的話，也許我們也給他一個不同程度量刑的狀況，所以當時的立法政策是說，如果你有自白，再加上返還被害者的損害金額的話，我們就讓你減輕其刑，也就是用寬嚴並濟的政策，一方面希望鼓勵返還損失的財產、詐騙的財產，另外一方面則是讓他們有坦白的空間，當時的立法意旨是這樣。可是實際上從去年8月執行到現在，我們從新聞上面來看的話，其實很清楚，法務部可以先請回，沒有關係；署長，您可以自由啦！反正我主要問部長。我們從新聞上面來看的話，其實很清楚，現在出現了一種現象，叫做教戰守則，就是抓到了以後，署長，是不是有這樣的狀況？新聞報導的是真的嗎？也就是說，通常抓到的是車手，比較容易抓到，犯罪集團的首腦比較難抓到，結果抓到車手以後，他就告訴你說這一條，繳交其犯罪所得，而且自白，就可以減輕其刑，逗點之後的四個字是「減輕其刑」，所以每一個車手來就說我承認，我真的是不小心、誤會啦！但是我做了這件事情，不過50萬裡面我只收到百分之一，所以我只有得到5,000塊，5,000塊繳一繳，我又自白了，就可以減輕其刑，今天報導的都是這樣。署長，有這樣的情形嗎？"],["張署長榮興：確實是有這樣的情形。"],["蘇委員巧慧：確實是有嘛！所以本來立法意旨是好意，區分刑度、寬嚴並濟，希望能夠讓更多的受害者得到補償，希望讓犯罪者迷途知返，結果反而變成是犯罪者的教戰守則，所以我們今天要來修這一條。部長，我再請問，如果是這樣的話，您現在看到，剛剛署長已經說確實是有，你知道這個案件數有多少嗎？其實，剛剛署長也說……"],["劉部長世芳：被詐騙的案件數嗎？"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，就是利用這一條來減刑的，有統計嗎？"],["張署長榮興：減刑的部分，可能在法院才有這個數據。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，法院才……"],["張署長榮興：目前看到的判例確實是這樣判的，就是他自己本身對於其犯罪，比如他騙50萬，他自己拿到的只有5,000塊，就對這5,000塊來做處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！我想因為時間的關係，我們就不追這個數字，反正署長已經說確實是有這樣的狀況了嘛！部長，我也想請教一下，今天已經提出這個版本的委員，很多都認為既然立法政策的善意反而造成了犯罪的空間，那麼我們現在就乾脆全部收回這個善意，所以現在的條文有些改成是要全數返還的才可以有減刑，全部一致改成全數返還的，有委員的版本是這樣，您贊同這個版本嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：這個恐怕在後端的執行部分會有困擾……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們是建議，第一個，很多委員要回應民意，這個良善的用意我們都支持，但是在處理的程序當中，我想我們還是必須要尊重法務部及司法院，他們在處理的過程當中怎麼樣會更好，因為全數返還這件事情，如果有共犯結構，可能溯及到整個犯罪集團……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，沒有錯，每個人的狀況不一樣啊！"],["劉部長世芳：如果要全數返還，恐怕要十幾、二十年以後，這樣子其實跟我們原來要修改這個法律的良善用意可能就會有所偏差。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我想是這樣，因為等一下細部的討論，我們在修法的時候還可以再來一一辯證，但是在這裡的話，我們就先確認內政部的態度，當時的立法用意有協助追溯被害者的金額，要求返還，區分犯罪者犯刑不同而有不同的刑度量刑，這是善意，但現在如果一面全部關上這個大門，變成所有的人都是返還所有被害者的金額，比如這個車手假設真的誠意悔改了，你要他一個人交出50萬才有可能減刑，這是不是又太重？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：把過去的善門關上全部，這樣是對的嗎？所以剛剛我們提出了一個修正動議，我是把整個條文區分成兩個層次，第一個，在審判中全程自白，然後犯罪所得自動繳交者得減輕其刑，也就是說，他做完了這兩個要件之後，法院還是可以來量處，要或不要減輕其刑，不像過去是直接就進入了一定減刑的部分，這是第一個改變。但後面也區分了第二階段，在法院言詞辯論終結前，支付與被害人達成調解或和解的全部金額者，才是列入到直接減輕或免除其刑。這是我個人的意見，我也已經提出了修正動議的版本送上來，等一下我們修正的時候可以再討論。","最後，剛剛既然知道內政部及法務部的方向，我想再利用一點點的時間跳題講另外一個部分，剛才是法條修正的部分，剛剛部長有講到打詐儀錶板的部分，我想瀏覽人次現在是確實非常的多，民眾也都會來看這個，不過部長，我們辦公室在看這個的時候，確實是有一點意見，瀏覽人次這麼多的打詐儀錶板，你看它下面這裡所表達的資訊方式，截至6月23日（星期一）的詐騙受理數是626件，這沒有問題嘛！表示我們很積極，有很多案件；然後接下來列的是財產損失金額，高達兩億六千多萬。沒關係，我不是在跟你追究這個資訊的正確與否，而是在一個政府打詐的成效表上面，所宣傳的是民眾的損失金額，這到底是在宣揚政府做得好，還是在幫詐騙集團說他們騙到了好多錢？這裡不是應該要把它變成是追還、返還的被害金額嗎？表示政府把被詐騙的金額追還了多少、返還了多少，這個才是政府的成績、人民的有感吧！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們在處理有關165打詐儀錶板的是，只要民眾報案，我們要表示中間並沒有黑數，就直接把它放上去，所以未來如果經過包括我們的檢警調單位出來的，有關於是返還多少錢的話，在下面的一個統計資料就會出來，這個是當天的，就是前一天24小時全臺灣發生的是有多少，真正的財產損失金額是報案者的財產損失金額，至於是不是真的是這樣子的話，還是有待於要經過一定的確認。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒關係，政策都可以討論，這個立意良善，因為政府最宣傳這個，所以我現在要告訴你的是，我們看完了之後是這樣，既然你們也有追回的返還金額，那麼那個返還金額要不要也放在更明顯一點的地方？"],["劉部長世芳：也把它放上去，好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：讓大家知道政府的努力，我想這是一個可以參考的地方，謝謝部長。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員指教，我們會來修正。"],["主席：請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-27","speakers":["張宏陸","王定宇","王義川","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","吳琪銘","高金素梅","丁學忠","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員\n張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林宜瑾\n等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員王義川等16人\n擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員陳素月等 18 人擬具\n「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1146401_00001"}}}