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\"text\": \"這個部分我們所以希望再修法要朝嚴格的方向來處理嘛不要讓他們隨便減刑嘛就是說你要有實質的填補被害人的損失我們這個時候才考慮得減輕刑刑這樣子對被害人的保護比較周到以上所以現在法務部因為現在也有兩種修法一個邏輯一個是我們把所謂的犯罪所得的定義講得清楚一點然後另外一種是所謂把因改成德嘛就授予法官實際裁量那現在法務部的意見是什麼呢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 256.114, \"end\": 256.234, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 256.234, \"end\": 256.414, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 256.414, \"end\": 256.875, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 256.875, \"end\": 256.975, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 256.975, \"end\": 257.035, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 257.035, \"end\": 257.135, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 257.135, \"end\": 257.255, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 257.255, \"end\": 257.415, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 257.415, \"end\": 257.635, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 257.635, \"end\": 257.995, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 257.995, \"end\": 258.756, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"朝\", \"start\": 258.756, \"end\": 259.316, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 259.316, \"end\": 259.476, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 259.476, \"end\": 259.576, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 259.576, \"end\": 259.756, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 259.756, \"end\": 260.196, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 260.196, \"end\": 260.316, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 260.316, \"end\": 260.637, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 260.637, \"end\": 260.797, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 260.797, \"end\": 260.937, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 260.937, \"end\": 261.217, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"隨\"}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 261.217, \"end\": 261.397, 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00:00:28,167\n委員好市長署長早安我們今天討論詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的再修法這個原因當然是大概是第47條大家對這個東西有一些有一些要調整的地方就是說這個今天要修正的第47條本來規定就是說詐欺犯罪在偵查及審判過程中自白並且繳交犯罪所得者可以減刑期刑應該說應減刑期刑\n\n2\n00:00:32,658 --> 00:00:43,472\n並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官扣押全部犯罪所的或查獲發起組織操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者減輕或免除其刑\n\n3\n00:00:44,144 --> 00:01:05,707\n那現在法律上面大概有針對所謂的犯罪所得它就有不同的詮釋嘛有一說是說犯罪所得應該是指所謂的從被害人的角度出發啦我被騙多少錢這些被騙者的錢當然就是這個團伙的犯罪所得嘛對不對所以在這個刑事最高法院的刑事大法庭做裁定之前其實蠻有一些法院是採取這樣子的一個說法\n\n4\n00:01:06,167 --> 00:01:29,389\n那麼另外一種說法是說犯罪所得就限於犯罪人嘛是從加害人的角度也就是說實際取得的個人所得因為詐騙是一個團體行為嘛這守謀拿到了一些對不對這中間幹部拿到了一些這末梢的車手也拿到了一些那麼犯罪所得如果僅限於行為人自己的個人所得比如說我車手出去對不對比如你幫我去搞這個收這個錢然後把它轉到哪一個帳戶給你五千塊的車馬費\n\n5\n00:01:32,832 --> 00:01:48,184\n這一說就認為說那他的犯罪所得就其實只有五千塊錢所以他不包含其他詐騙集團成員的獲利當然也就不包含被害人其他的損害嘛那最後這個最高法院的刑事大法庭同意見解是\n\n6\n00:01:49,085 --> 00:02:06,664\n看起來是採取個人的犯罪所得嘛也就是說車手領到五千塊你的犯罪所得就五千塊那麼這樣子的一個法律的詮釋跟切入點就會變成說那我被抓我只要把這五千塊繳回去然後我就把該供的人供出來那車手也不見得知道所有的這樣子的一個真實狀況那就還減輕其刑那到了最後\n\n7\n00:02:09,705 --> 00:02:23,832\n是不是會造成嚇阻的力道不足啊所以說今天有多委員就提出了這相關一個修正案但我在想說我們進到這討論之前我想要先釐清一下事情就是說我們在6月5號當初去年排審的時候其實也就討論過47條\n\n8\n00:02:25,533 --> 00:02:46,051\n當初法務部反而是覺得那時候陳廷飛委員就有提案就說我就要把他改成德因為他就有注意到這個事情嘛可是當初院版是說希望建請委員在佐也就是說當初法務部是支持院版也就是現在這種只要只要繳回犯罪所得只要自白就可以減輕起刑的狀況那現在又講說法務部又講現在要修法請問那個中間的變化是什麼\n\n9\n00:02:48,459 --> 00:02:56,654\n包委員我們這裡就是寬容並濟那如果說有犯罪所得其實最終的目的就是要還給被害人\n\n10\n00:02:57,779 --> 00:03:18,924\n我想被害人關心的是這一塊犯罪被騙的錢能夠拿回來那我們為了有效的鼓勵這些詐騙的這些相關的人願意填補被害人的損害於是我們希望強度強一點能夠減輕其刑這是鼓勵但是對於犯罪所得這一個部分\n\n11\n00:03:20,344 --> 00:03:38,640\n卻發生了不同的解釋的角度那這個就變成說跟我們原來立法我們立法的原意有一點出入因為本來就是填補被害人的損失是所有的犯罪的所得都應該要還給被害人可是發現不對現在是採最狹義的就是報仇收\n\n12\n00:03:39,341 --> 00:03:55,806\n那報仇的時候變成他會出來講說我只有報仇只有五千塊錢那法院認為這就是他個人的犯罪所得於是產生出這樣的結果那我們就覺得如果是這樣的話這個部分恐怕就要用修法的方式把它修了而且呢我們認為說\n\n13\n00:03:57,566 --> 00:04:15,094\n這個裡面又發生實務上又發生很多他在偵審的時候他和解或者是調解可是條件講好了他並沒有履行他沒有履行的情況之下他也獲得了減輕期刑所以呢這個對於被害人來講是保障是不足的所以我們希望說\n\n14\n00:04:16,114 --> 00:04:43,429\n這個部分我們所以希望再修法要朝嚴格的方向來處理嘛不要讓他們隨便減刑嘛就是說你要有實質的填補被害人的損失我們這個時候才考慮得減輕刑刑這樣子對被害人的保護比較周到以上所以現在法務部因為現在也有兩種修法一個邏輯一個是我們把所謂的犯罪所得的定義講得清楚一點然後另外一種是所謂把因改成德嘛就授予法官實際裁量那現在法務部的意見是什麼呢\n\n15\n00:04:44,451 --> 00:04:59,130\n我們是希望我們在就是說除了自白立審自白以外我們建議就是要支付跟被害人達成調解跟和解的全部金額得減金期刑這個用意是在於說\n\n16\n00:05:00,587 --> 00:05:15,419\n剛才委員講得非常清楚有的車手他是10個車手的其中一個他出來收10萬其他的90萬不是他收的可是整個集團的不罰所得是100萬可是他個人只有代收10萬他又只領到5000塊\n\n17\n00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:35,001\n那我們認為說你不能叫他去負擔一百萬全部他一個人去賠我覺得這樣太嚴格我們認為他收了十萬應該就是十萬他應該去跟被害人來和解如果被害人也同意那就這十萬的部分他達成和解他陪他去領了那十萬\n\n18\n00:05:35,962 --> 00:05:51,309\n我們應該就斟酌得減輕其刑所以就是說看他拿多少願意繳回多少好達成什麼盡量補償受害人如果他已經盡其全力然後也願意自白那還是要給法官一定的財產權是用一個兩者兼有的做法這樣子的話不會所有的車手\n\n19\n00:05:51,949 --> 00:06:05,616\n他後來就通通都不自白了如果是這樣子的一個方向那本行基本上競表贊同那我是覺得這種反正細節法律上操作只要能夠有效嚇阻犯罪那都是一件好事我們樂觀其成好我們請警政署一下好速發部也支援法務部謝謝\n\n20\n00:06:07,998 --> 00:06:36,166\n這個我們打詐儀表板這個雖然好像有稍微下降的一些趨勢啦但是其實受詐騙的金額還是非常的高那我想喔這個最常被詐騙的管道依然還是各個網路平台的詐騙廣告訊息啦還是難以根除即便我們修正了打詐釋法但好像野火燒不盡春風吹又生蘇發部我想請教一下蘇發部詐騙廣告經通報下架之後常常出現重複刊登的問題啊\n\n21\n00:06:37,045 --> 00:06:55,985\n那我們現在開罰多少次了目前來講的話警政署有送了一批那我們大概開罰了100萬那其實有另外第二次100萬是100萬次還是100萬元幾個案例兩件兩個案例來警政署署長你送了多少案例\n\n22\n00:06:57,525 --> 00:07:22,006\n我們分成一批是十五件一批是二十五件一批十五件一批二十五件對那個十五件裡面他開罰兩岸第一批的十五件罰了兩岸對現在還有一批去二十五件目前他們還在審議當中你覺得他這樣罰了兩岸對於警政署打仗有幫助嗎我覺得還有努力的空間還有努力的空間好來速發部解釋一下為什麼只有兩岸好不好\n\n23\n00:07:23,732 --> 00:07:27,253\n報告一下跟委員講一下就是說這個目前來講的話就是如果有違規來講的話我們大概有12萬及時24小時下架這個都是馬上去runout行政處罰就讓他去下架目前開罰那兩件主要是因為他的那個廣告的那個資訊揭露不完全而導致的\n\n24\n00:07:42,299 --> 00:08:05,578\n那我們評估之後呢大概當然有一些東西是因為系統或怎樣大概檢視一下就是因為這兩件那接下來警政署送的第二批我們也現在正在討論大概我們也正在討論目前正在給他一個展出意見第一批的15件下架之後有沒有重新刊登上去的狀況沒有那個都全部移除掉了全部移除保證24小時內就移除掉了他會不會等到傳過水無痕之後又給你重新出現\n\n25\n00:08:06,619 --> 00:08:19,976\n呃沒有那24小時都下架了不能讓他們匯圖轉身好不好我們要提醒一下啦好好是謝謝委員指導而且該兇就兇那再來我要問第一批15件第二批25件那針對平台源頭你們有沒有持續來做溝通\n\n26\n00:08:21,549 --> 00:08:37,175\n你說Meta嗎?對啊,有,有在溝通,其實他們近期因為我們有發現為什麼會有一直那個廣告揭露不完全的部分,那主要是他那個系統的部分,那我們請他說這個你沒有理由,你一定要趕快去盡快去做修改,那其實這期間來講的話,他們陸陸續續從新加坡的技術團隊或怎樣都有來跟我們去持續溝通,然後再來\n\n27\n00:08:42,877 --> 00:09:06,008\n再來就是說我們也在跟他談一些有一些相關的情資的分享看看怎麼去共同來去做打大其實剛剛也有回答說如何應用AI的東西然後來去判斷他們應該負起一些這個要去掃描去判斷嘛對對對大家一起共同理論今天時間到了啦是不好意思請速發部提供一下就是說針對這個源頭管理防堵你剛剛講說你跟Meta也好或者是其他的平台有做一定的溝通嘛對不對做了哪些溝通摘要一下\n\n28\n00:09:06,428 --> 00:09:21,560\n好第二個這個警政署也麻煩一下你送了這十五二總共四十件啦那大概的樣態是什麼可不可以稍微整理一下好沒問題你要這種對照一下嘛我在平台上還沒有看到類似的好不好好這樣我們還可以來做會後追蹤請提供相關報告給本集參考可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝大家辛苦了\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n885\t28167\t委員好市長 署長早安我們今天討論詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的再修法這個原因當然是大概是第47條大家對這個東西有一些有一些要調整的地方就是說這個今天要修正的第47條本來規定就是說詐欺犯罪在偵查及審判過程中自白並且繳交犯罪所得者可以減刑期刑應該說應減刑期刑\n32658\t43472\t並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官扣押全部犯罪所的或查獲發起組織操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者減輕或免除其刑\n44144\t65707\t那現在法律上面大概有針對所謂的犯罪所得它就有不同的詮釋嘛有一說是說犯罪所得應該是指所謂的從被害人的角度出發啦我被騙多少錢這些被騙者的錢當然就是這個團伙的犯罪所得嘛對不對所以在這個刑事最高法院的刑事大法庭做裁定之前其實蠻有一些法院是採取這樣子的一個說法\n66167\t89389\t那麼另外一種說法是說犯罪所得就限於犯罪人嘛是從加害人的角度也就是說實際取得的個人所得因為詐騙是一個團體行為嘛這守謀拿到了一些對不對這中間幹部拿到了一些這末梢的車手也拿到了一些那麼犯罪所得如果僅限於行為人自己的個人所得比如說我車手出去對不對比如你幫我去搞這個收這個錢然後把它轉到哪一個帳戶給你五千塊的車馬費\n92832\t108184\t這一說就認為說那他的犯罪所得就其實只有五千塊錢所以他不包含其他詐騙集團成員的獲利當然也就不包含被害人其他的損害嘛那最後這個最高法院的刑事大法庭同意見解是\n109085\t126664\t看起來是採取個人的犯罪所得嘛也就是說車手領到五千塊你的犯罪所得就五千塊那麼這樣子的一個法律的詮釋跟切入點就會變成說那我被抓我只要把這五千塊繳回去然後我就把該供的人供出來那車手也不見得知道所有的這樣子的一個真實狀況那就還減輕其刑那到了最後\n129705\t143832\t是不是會造成嚇阻的力道不足啊所以說今天有多委員就提出了這相關一個修正案但我在想說我們進到這討論之前我想要先釐清一下事情就是說我們在6月5號當初去年排審的時候其實也就討論過47條\n145533\t166051\t當初法務部反而是覺得那時候陳廷飛委員就有提案就說我就要把他改成德因為他就有注意到這個事情嘛可是當初院版是說希望建請委員在佐也就是說當初法務部是支持院版也就是現在這種只要只要繳回犯罪所得只要自白就可以減輕起刑的狀況那現在又講說法務部又講現在要修法請問那個中間的變化是什麼\n168459\t176654\t包委員我們這裡就是寬容並濟那如果說有犯罪所得其實最終的目的就是要還給被害人\n177779\t198924\t我想被害人關心的是這一塊犯罪被騙的錢能夠拿回來那我們為了有效的鼓勵這些詐騙的這些相關的人願意填補被害人的損害於是我們希望強度強一點能夠減輕其刑這是鼓勵但是對於犯罪所得這一個部分\n200344\t218640\t卻發生了不同的解釋的角度那這個就變成說跟我們原來立法我們立法的原意有一點出入因為本來就是填補被害人的損失是所有的犯罪的所得都應該要還給被害人可是發現不對現在是採最狹義的就是報仇收\n219341\t235806\t那報仇的時候變成他會出來講說我只有報仇只有五千塊錢那法院認為這就是他個人的犯罪所得於是產生出這樣的結果那我們就覺得如果是這樣的話這個部分恐怕就要用修法的方式把它修了而且呢我們認為說\n237566\t255094\t這個裡面又發生實務上又發生很多他在偵審的時候他和解或者是調解可是條件講好了他並沒有履行他沒有履行的情況之下他也獲得了減輕期刑所以呢這個對於被害人來講是保障是不足的所以我們希望說\n256114\t283429\t這個部分我們所以希望再修法要朝嚴格的方向來處理嘛不要讓他們隨便減刑嘛就是說你要有實質的填補被害人的損失我們這個時候才考慮得減輕刑刑這樣子對被害人的保護比較周到以上所以現在法務部因為現在也有兩種修法一個邏輯一個是我們把所謂的犯罪所得的定義講得清楚一點然後另外一種是所謂把因改成德嘛就授予法官實際裁量那現在法務部的意見是什麼呢\n284451\t299130\t我們是希望我們在就是說除了自白立審自白以外我們建議就是要支付跟被害人達成調解跟和解的全部金額得減金期刑這個用意是在於說\n300587\t315419\t剛才委員講得非常清楚有的車手他是10個車手的其中一個他出來收10萬其他的90萬不是他收的可是整個集團的不罰所得是100萬可是他個人只有代收10萬他又只領到5000塊\n316880\t335001\t那我們認為說你不能叫他去負擔一百萬全部他一個人去賠我覺得這樣太嚴格我們認為他收了十萬應該就是十萬他應該去跟被害人來和解如果被害人也同意那就這十萬的部分他達成和解他陪他去領了那十萬\n335962\t351309\t我們應該就斟酌得減輕其刑所以就是說看他拿多少願意繳回多少好達成什麼盡量補償受害人如果他已經盡其全力然後也願意自白那還是要給法官一定的財產權是用一個兩者兼有的做法這樣子的話不會所有的車手\n351949\t365616\t他後來就通通都不自白了如果是這樣子的一個方向那本行基本上競表贊同那我是覺得這種反正細節法律上操作只要能夠有效嚇阻犯罪那都是一件好事我們樂觀其成好 我們請警政署一下好 速發部也支援 法務部謝謝\n367998\t396166\t這個我們打詐儀表板這個雖然好像有稍微下降的一些趨勢啦但是其實受詐騙的金額還是非常的高那我想喔這個最常被詐騙的管道依然還是各個網路平台的詐騙廣告訊息啦還是難以根除即便我們修正了打詐釋法但好像野火燒不盡春風吹又生蘇發部我想請教一下蘇發部詐騙廣告經通報下架之後常常出現重複刊登的問題啊\n397045\t415985\t那我們現在開罰多少次了目前來講的話警政署有送了一批那我們大概開罰了100萬那其實有另外第二次100萬是100萬次還是100萬元幾個案例兩件兩個案例來警政署署長你送了多少案例\n417525\t442006\t我們分成一批是十五件 一批是二十五件一批十五件 一批二十五件對 那個十五件裡面他開罰兩岸第一批的十五件罰了兩岸對 現在還有一批去二十五件 目前他們還在審議當中你覺得他這樣罰了兩岸對於警政署打仗有幫助嗎我覺得還有努力的空間還有努力的空間 好 來 速發部解釋一下為什麼只有兩岸好不好\n443732\t447253\t報告一下跟委員講一下就是說這個目前來講的話就是如果有違規來講的話我們大概有12萬及時24小時下架這個都是馬上去run out行政處罰就讓他去下架目前開罰那兩件主要是因為他的那個廣告的那個資訊揭露不完全而導致的\n462299\t485578\t那我們評估之後呢大概當然有一些東西是因為系統或怎樣大概檢視一下就是因為這兩件那接下來警政署送的第二批我們也現在正在討論大概我們也正在討論目前正在給他一個展出意見第一批的15件下架之後有沒有重新刊登上去的狀況沒有那個都全部移除掉了全部移除保證24小時內就移除掉了他會不會等到傳過水無痕之後又給你重新出現\n486619\t499976\t呃沒有那24小時都下架了不能讓他們匯圖轉身好不好我們要提醒一下啦好好是謝謝委員指導而且該兇就兇那再來我要問第一批15件第二批25件那針對平台源頭你們有沒有持續來做溝通\n501549\t517175\t你說Meta嗎?對啊,有,有在溝通,其實他們近期因為我們有發現為什麼會有一直那個廣告揭露不完全的部分,那主要是他那個系統的部分,那我們請他說這個你沒有理由,你一定要趕快去盡快去做修改,那其實這期間來講的話,他們陸陸續續從新加坡的技術團隊或怎樣都有來跟我們去持續溝通,然後再來\n522877\t546008\t再來就是說我們也在跟他談一些有一些相關的情資的分享看看怎麼去共同來去做打大其實剛剛也有回答說如何應用AI的東西然後來去判斷他們應該負起一些這個 要去掃描去判斷嘛對對對 大家一起共同理論 今天時間到了啦是不好意思 請速發部提供一下就是說針對這個源頭管理防堵你剛剛講說你跟Meta也好或者是其他的平台有做一定的溝通嘛對不對做了哪些溝通摘要一下\n546428\t561560\t好第二個這個警政署也麻煩一下你送了這十五二總共四十件啦那大概的樣態是什麼可不可以稍微整理一下好沒問題你要這種對照一下嘛我在平台上還沒有看到類似的好不好好這樣我們還可以來做會後追蹤請提供相關報告給本集參考可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝大家辛苦了\n","txt":"委員好市長 署長早安我們今天討論詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的再修法這個原因當然是大概是第47條大家對這個東西有一些有一些要調整的地方就是說這個今天要修正的第47條本來規定就是說詐欺犯罪在偵查及審判過程中自白並且繳交犯罪所得者可以減刑期刑應該說應減刑期刑\n並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官扣押全部犯罪所的或查獲發起組織操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者減輕或免除其刑\n那現在法律上面大概有針對所謂的犯罪所得它就有不同的詮釋嘛有一說是說犯罪所得應該是指所謂的從被害人的角度出發啦我被騙多少錢這些被騙者的錢當然就是這個團伙的犯罪所得嘛對不對所以在這個刑事最高法院的刑事大法庭做裁定之前其實蠻有一些法院是採取這樣子的一個說法\n那麼另外一種說法是說犯罪所得就限於犯罪人嘛是從加害人的角度也就是說實際取得的個人所得因為詐騙是一個團體行為嘛這守謀拿到了一些對不對這中間幹部拿到了一些這末梢的車手也拿到了一些那麼犯罪所得如果僅限於行為人自己的個人所得比如說我車手出去對不對比如你幫我去搞這個收這個錢然後把它轉到哪一個帳戶給你五千塊的車馬費\n這一說就認為說那他的犯罪所得就其實只有五千塊錢所以他不包含其他詐騙集團成員的獲利當然也就不包含被害人其他的損害嘛那最後這個最高法院的刑事大法庭同意見解是\n看起來是採取個人的犯罪所得嘛也就是說車手領到五千塊你的犯罪所得就五千塊那麼這樣子的一個法律的詮釋跟切入點就會變成說那我被抓我只要把這五千塊繳回去然後我就把該供的人供出來那車手也不見得知道所有的這樣子的一個真實狀況那就還減輕其刑那到了最後\n是不是會造成嚇阻的力道不足啊所以說今天有多委員就提出了這相關一個修正案但我在想說我們進到這討論之前我想要先釐清一下事情就是說我們在6月5號當初去年排審的時候其實也就討論過47條\n當初法務部反而是覺得那時候陳廷飛委員就有提案就說我就要把他改成德因為他就有注意到這個事情嘛可是當初院版是說希望建請委員在佐也就是說當初法務部是支持院版也就是現在這種只要只要繳回犯罪所得只要自白就可以減輕起刑的狀況那現在又講說法務部又講現在要修法請問那個中間的變化是什麼\n包委員我們這裡就是寬容並濟那如果說有犯罪所得其實最終的目的就是要還給被害人\n我想被害人關心的是這一塊犯罪被騙的錢能夠拿回來那我們為了有效的鼓勵這些詐騙的這些相關的人願意填補被害人的損害於是我們希望強度強一點能夠減輕其刑這是鼓勵但是對於犯罪所得這一個部分\n卻發生了不同的解釋的角度那這個就變成說跟我們原來立法我們立法的原意有一點出入因為本來就是填補被害人的損失是所有的犯罪的所得都應該要還給被害人可是發現不對現在是採最狹義的就是報仇收\n那報仇的時候變成他會出來講說我只有報仇只有五千塊錢那法院認為這就是他個人的犯罪所得於是產生出這樣的結果那我們就覺得如果是這樣的話這個部分恐怕就要用修法的方式把它修了而且呢我們認為說\n這個裡面又發生實務上又發生很多他在偵審的時候他和解或者是調解可是條件講好了他並沒有履行他沒有履行的情況之下他也獲得了減輕期刑所以呢這個對於被害人來講是保障是不足的所以我們希望說\n這個部分我們所以希望再修法要朝嚴格的方向來處理嘛不要讓他們隨便減刑嘛就是說你要有實質的填補被害人的損失我們這個時候才考慮得減輕刑刑這樣子對被害人的保護比較周到以上所以現在法務部因為現在也有兩種修法一個邏輯一個是我們把所謂的犯罪所得的定義講得清楚一點然後另外一種是所謂把因改成德嘛就授予法官實際裁量那現在法務部的意見是什麼呢\n我們是希望我們在就是說除了自白立審自白以外我們建議就是要支付跟被害人達成調解跟和解的全部金額得減金期刑這個用意是在於說\n剛才委員講得非常清楚有的車手他是10個車手的其中一個他出來收10萬其他的90萬不是他收的可是整個集團的不罰所得是100萬可是他個人只有代收10萬他又只領到5000塊\n那我們認為說你不能叫他去負擔一百萬全部他一個人去賠我覺得這樣太嚴格我們認為他收了十萬應該就是十萬他應該去跟被害人來和解如果被害人也同意那就這十萬的部分他達成和解他陪他去領了那十萬\n我們應該就斟酌得減輕其刑所以就是說看他拿多少願意繳回多少好達成什麼盡量補償受害人如果他已經盡其全力然後也願意自白那還是要給法官一定的財產權是用一個兩者兼有的做法這樣子的話不會所有的車手\n他後來就通通都不自白了如果是這樣子的一個方向那本行基本上競表贊同那我是覺得這種反正細節法律上操作只要能夠有效嚇阻犯罪那都是一件好事我們樂觀其成好 我們請警政署一下好 速發部也支援 法務部謝謝\n這個我們打詐儀表板這個雖然好像有稍微下降的一些趨勢啦但是其實受詐騙的金額還是非常的高那我想喔這個最常被詐騙的管道依然還是各個網路平台的詐騙廣告訊息啦還是難以根除即便我們修正了打詐釋法但好像野火燒不盡春風吹又生蘇發部我想請教一下蘇發部詐騙廣告經通報下架之後常常出現重複刊登的問題啊\n那我們現在開罰多少次了目前來講的話警政署有送了一批那我們大概開罰了100萬那其實有另外第二次100萬是100萬次還是100萬元幾個案例兩件兩個案例來警政署署長你送了多少案例\n我們分成一批是十五件 一批是二十五件一批十五件 一批二十五件對 那個十五件裡面他開罰兩岸第一批的十五件罰了兩岸對 現在還有一批去二十五件 目前他們還在審議當中你覺得他這樣罰了兩岸對於警政署打仗有幫助嗎我覺得還有努力的空間還有努力的空間 好 來 速發部解釋一下為什麼只有兩岸好不好\n報告一下跟委員講一下就是說這個目前來講的話就是如果有違規來講的話我們大概有12萬及時24小時下架這個都是馬上去run out行政處罰就讓他去下架目前開罰那兩件主要是因為他的那個廣告的那個資訊揭露不完全而導致的\n那我們評估之後呢大概當然有一些東西是因為系統或怎樣大概檢視一下就是因為這兩件那接下來警政署送的第二批我們也現在正在討論大概我們也正在討論目前正在給他一個展出意見第一批的15件下架之後有沒有重新刊登上去的狀況沒有那個都全部移除掉了全部移除保證24小時內就移除掉了他會不會等到傳過水無痕之後又給你重新出現\n呃沒有那24小時都下架了不能讓他們匯圖轉身好不好我們要提醒一下啦好好是謝謝委員指導而且該兇就兇那再來我要問第一批15件第二批25件那針對平台源頭你們有沒有持續來做溝通\n你說Meta嗎?對啊,有,有在溝通,其實他們近期因為我們有發現為什麼會有一直那個廣告揭露不完全的部分,那主要是他那個系統的部分,那我們請他說這個你沒有理由,你一定要趕快去盡快去做修改,那其實這期間來講的話,他們陸陸續續從新加坡的技術團隊或怎樣都有來跟我們去持續溝通,然後再來\n再來就是說我們也在跟他談一些有一些相關的情資的分享看看怎麼去共同來去做打大其實剛剛也有回答說如何應用AI的東西然後來去判斷他們應該負起一些這個 要去掃描去判斷嘛對對對 大家一起共同理論 今天時間到了啦是不好意思 請速發部提供一下就是說針對這個源頭管理防堵你剛剛講說你跟Meta也好或者是其他的平台有做一定的溝通嘛對不對做了哪些溝通摘要一下\n好第二個這個警政署也麻煩一下你送了這十五二總共四十件啦那大概的樣態是什麼可不可以稍微整理一下好沒問題你要這種對照一下嘛我在平台上還沒有看到類似的好不好好這樣我們還可以來做會後追蹤請提供相關報告給本集參考可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝大家辛苦了\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.885 --> 00:28.167\n委員好市長署長早安我們今天討論詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的再修法這個原因當然是大概是第47條大家對這個東西有一些有一些要調整的地方就是說這個今天要修正的第47條本來規定就是說詐欺犯罪在偵查及審判過程中自白並且繳交犯罪所得者可以減刑期刑應該說應減刑期刑\n\n00:32.658 --> 00:43.472\n並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官扣押全部犯罪所的或查獲發起組織操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者減輕或免除其刑\n\n00:44.144 --> 01:05.707\n那現在法律上面大概有針對所謂的犯罪所得它就有不同的詮釋嘛有一說是說犯罪所得應該是指所謂的從被害人的角度出發啦我被騙多少錢這些被騙者的錢當然就是這個團伙的犯罪所得嘛對不對所以在這個刑事最高法院的刑事大法庭做裁定之前其實蠻有一些法院是採取這樣子的一個說法\n\n01:06.167 --> 01:29.389\n那麼另外一種說法是說犯罪所得就限於犯罪人嘛是從加害人的角度也就是說實際取得的個人所得因為詐騙是一個團體行為嘛這守謀拿到了一些對不對這中間幹部拿到了一些這末梢的車手也拿到了一些那麼犯罪所得如果僅限於行為人自己的個人所得比如說我車手出去對不對比如你幫我去搞這個收這個錢然後把它轉到哪一個帳戶給你五千塊的車馬費\n\n01:32.832 --> 01:48.184\n這一說就認為說那他的犯罪所得就其實只有五千塊錢所以他不包含其他詐騙集團成員的獲利當然也就不包含被害人其他的損害嘛那最後這個最高法院的刑事大法庭同意見解是\n\n01:49.085 --> 02:06.664\n看起來是採取個人的犯罪所得嘛也就是說車手領到五千塊你的犯罪所得就五千塊那麼這樣子的一個法律的詮釋跟切入點就會變成說那我被抓我只要把這五千塊繳回去然後我就把該供的人供出來那車手也不見得知道所有的這樣子的一個真實狀況那就還減輕其刑那到了最後\n\n02:09.705 --> 02:23.832\n是不是會造成嚇阻的力道不足啊所以說今天有多委員就提出了這相關一個修正案但我在想說我們進到這討論之前我想要先釐清一下事情就是說我們在6月5號當初去年排審的時候其實也就討論過47條\n\n02:25.533 --> 02:46.051\n當初法務部反而是覺得那時候陳廷飛委員就有提案就說我就要把他改成德因為他就有注意到這個事情嘛可是當初院版是說希望建請委員在佐也就是說當初法務部是支持院版也就是現在這種只要只要繳回犯罪所得只要自白就可以減輕起刑的狀況那現在又講說法務部又講現在要修法請問那個中間的變化是什麼\n\n02:48.459 --> 02:56.654\n包委員我們這裡就是寬容並濟那如果說有犯罪所得其實最終的目的就是要還給被害人\n\n02:57.779 --> 03:18.924\n我想被害人關心的是這一塊犯罪被騙的錢能夠拿回來那我們為了有效的鼓勵這些詐騙的這些相關的人願意填補被害人的損害於是我們希望強度強一點能夠減輕其刑這是鼓勵但是對於犯罪所得這一個部分\n\n03:20.344 --> 03:38.640\n卻發生了不同的解釋的角度那這個就變成說跟我們原來立法我們立法的原意有一點出入因為本來就是填補被害人的損失是所有的犯罪的所得都應該要還給被害人可是發現不對現在是採最狹義的就是報仇收\n\n03:39.341 --> 03:55.806\n那報仇的時候變成他會出來講說我只有報仇只有五千塊錢那法院認為這就是他個人的犯罪所得於是產生出這樣的結果那我們就覺得如果是這樣的話這個部分恐怕就要用修法的方式把它修了而且呢我們認為說\n\n03:57.566 --> 04:15.094\n這個裡面又發生實務上又發生很多他在偵審的時候他和解或者是調解可是條件講好了他並沒有履行他沒有履行的情況之下他也獲得了減輕期刑所以呢這個對於被害人來講是保障是不足的所以我們希望說\n\n04:16.114 --> 04:43.429\n這個部分我們所以希望再修法要朝嚴格的方向來處理嘛不要讓他們隨便減刑嘛就是說你要有實質的填補被害人的損失我們這個時候才考慮得減輕刑刑這樣子對被害人的保護比較周到以上所以現在法務部因為現在也有兩種修法一個邏輯一個是我們把所謂的犯罪所得的定義講得清楚一點然後另外一種是所謂把因改成德嘛就授予法官實際裁量那現在法務部的意見是什麼呢\n\n04:44.451 --> 04:59.130\n我們是希望我們在就是說除了自白立審自白以外我們建議就是要支付跟被害人達成調解跟和解的全部金額得減金期刑這個用意是在於說\n\n05:00.587 --> 05:15.419\n剛才委員講得非常清楚有的車手他是10個車手的其中一個他出來收10萬其他的90萬不是他收的可是整個集團的不罰所得是100萬可是他個人只有代收10萬他又只領到5000塊\n\n05:16.880 --> 05:35.001\n那我們認為說你不能叫他去負擔一百萬全部他一個人去賠我覺得這樣太嚴格我們認為他收了十萬應該就是十萬他應該去跟被害人來和解如果被害人也同意那就這十萬的部分他達成和解他陪他去領了那十萬\n\n05:35.962 --> 05:51.309\n我們應該就斟酌得減輕其刑所以就是說看他拿多少願意繳回多少好達成什麼盡量補償受害人如果他已經盡其全力然後也願意自白那還是要給法官一定的財產權是用一個兩者兼有的做法這樣子的話不會所有的車手\n\n05:51.949 --> 06:05.616\n他後來就通通都不自白了如果是這樣子的一個方向那本行基本上競表贊同那我是覺得這種反正細節法律上操作只要能夠有效嚇阻犯罪那都是一件好事我們樂觀其成好我們請警政署一下好速發部也支援法務部謝謝\n\n06:07.998 --> 06:36.166\n這個我們打詐儀表板這個雖然好像有稍微下降的一些趨勢啦但是其實受詐騙的金額還是非常的高那我想喔這個最常被詐騙的管道依然還是各個網路平台的詐騙廣告訊息啦還是難以根除即便我們修正了打詐釋法但好像野火燒不盡春風吹又生蘇發部我想請教一下蘇發部詐騙廣告經通報下架之後常常出現重複刊登的問題啊\n\n06:37.045 --> 06:55.985\n那我們現在開罰多少次了目前來講的話警政署有送了一批那我們大概開罰了100萬那其實有另外第二次100萬是100萬次還是100萬元幾個案例兩件兩個案例來警政署署長你送了多少案例\n\n06:57.525 --> 07:22.006\n我們分成一批是十五件一批是二十五件一批十五件一批二十五件對那個十五件裡面他開罰兩岸第一批的十五件罰了兩岸對現在還有一批去二十五件目前他們還在審議當中你覺得他這樣罰了兩岸對於警政署打仗有幫助嗎我覺得還有努力的空間還有努力的空間好來速發部解釋一下為什麼只有兩岸好不好\n\n07:23.732 --> 07:27.253\n報告一下跟委員講一下就是說這個目前來講的話就是如果有違規來講的話我們大概有12萬及時24小時下架這個都是馬上去runout行政處罰就讓他去下架目前開罰那兩件主要是因為他的那個廣告的那個資訊揭露不完全而導致的\n\n07:42.299 --> 08:05.578\n那我們評估之後呢大概當然有一些東西是因為系統或怎樣大概檢視一下就是因為這兩件那接下來警政署送的第二批我們也現在正在討論大概我們也正在討論目前正在給他一個展出意見第一批的15件下架之後有沒有重新刊登上去的狀況沒有那個都全部移除掉了全部移除保證24小時內就移除掉了他會不會等到傳過水無痕之後又給你重新出現\n\n08:06.619 --> 08:19.976\n呃沒有那24小時都下架了不能讓他們匯圖轉身好不好我們要提醒一下啦好好是謝謝委員指導而且該兇就兇那再來我要問第一批15件第二批25件那針對平台源頭你們有沒有持續來做溝通\n\n08:21.549 --> 08:37.175\n你說Meta嗎?對啊,有,有在溝通,其實他們近期因為我們有發現為什麼會有一直那個廣告揭露不完全的部分,那主要是他那個系統的部分,那我們請他說這個你沒有理由,你一定要趕快去盡快去做修改,那其實這期間來講的話,他們陸陸續續從新加坡的技術團隊或怎樣都有來跟我們去持續溝通,然後再來\n\n08:42.877 --> 09:06.008\n再來就是說我們也在跟他談一些有一些相關的情資的分享看看怎麼去共同來去做打大其實剛剛也有回答說如何應用AI的東西然後來去判斷他們應該負起一些這個要去掃描去判斷嘛對對對大家一起共同理論今天時間到了啦是不好意思請速發部提供一下就是說針對這個源頭管理防堵你剛剛講說你跟Meta也好或者是其他的平台有做一定的溝通嘛對不對做了哪些溝通摘要一下\n\n09:06.428 --> 09:21.560\n好第二個這個警政署也麻煩一下你送了這十五二總共四十件啦那大概的樣態是什麼可不可以稍微整理一下好沒問題你要這種對照一下嘛我在平台上還沒有看到類似的好不好好這樣我們還可以來做會後追蹤請提供相關報告給本集參考可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝大家辛苦了\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.885,"end":28.167,"text":"委員好市長 署長早安我們今天討論詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的再修法這個原因當然是大概是第47條大家對這個東西有一些有一些要調整的地方就是說這個今天要修正的第47條本來規定就是說詐欺犯罪在偵查及審判過程中自白並且繳交犯罪所得者可以減刑期刑應該說應減刑期刑"},{"start":32.658,"end":43.472,"text":"並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官扣押全部犯罪所的或查獲發起組織操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者減輕或免除其刑"},{"start":44.144,"end":65.707,"text":"那現在法律上面大概有針對所謂的犯罪所得它就有不同的詮釋嘛有一說是說犯罪所得應該是指所謂的從被害人的角度出發啦我被騙多少錢這些被騙者的錢當然就是這個團伙的犯罪所得嘛對不對所以在這個刑事最高法院的刑事大法庭做裁定之前其實蠻有一些法院是採取這樣子的一個說法"},{"start":66.167,"end":89.389,"text":"那麼另外一種說法是說犯罪所得就限於犯罪人嘛是從加害人的角度也就是說實際取得的個人所得因為詐騙是一個團體行為嘛這守謀拿到了一些對不對這中間幹部拿到了一些這末梢的車手也拿到了一些那麼犯罪所得如果僅限於行為人自己的個人所得比如說我車手出去對不對比如你幫我去搞這個收這個錢然後把它轉到哪一個帳戶給你五千塊的車馬費"},{"start":92.832,"end":108.184,"text":"這一說就認為說那他的犯罪所得就其實只有五千塊錢所以他不包含其他詐騙集團成員的獲利當然也就不包含被害人其他的損害嘛那最後這個最高法院的刑事大法庭同意見解是"},{"start":109.085,"end":126.664,"text":"看起來是採取個人的犯罪所得嘛也就是說車手領到五千塊你的犯罪所得就五千塊那麼這樣子的一個法律的詮釋跟切入點就會變成說那我被抓我只要把這五千塊繳回去然後我就把該供的人供出來那車手也不見得知道所有的這樣子的一個真實狀況那就還減輕其刑那到了最後"},{"start":129.705,"end":143.832,"text":"是不是會造成嚇阻的力道不足啊所以說今天有多委員就提出了這相關一個修正案但我在想說我們進到這討論之前我想要先釐清一下事情就是說我們在6月5號當初去年排審的時候其實也就討論過47條"},{"start":145.533,"end":166.051,"text":"當初法務部反而是覺得那時候陳廷飛委員就有提案就說我就要把他改成德因為他就有注意到這個事情嘛可是當初院版是說希望建請委員在佐也就是說當初法務部是支持院版也就是現在這種只要只要繳回犯罪所得只要自白就可以減輕起刑的狀況那現在又講說法務部又講現在要修法請問那個中間的變化是什麼"},{"start":168.459,"end":176.654,"text":"包委員我們這裡就是寬容並濟那如果說有犯罪所得其實最終的目的就是要還給被害人"},{"start":177.779,"end":198.924,"text":"我想被害人關心的是這一塊犯罪被騙的錢能夠拿回來那我們為了有效的鼓勵這些詐騙的這些相關的人願意填補被害人的損害於是我們希望強度強一點能夠減輕其刑這是鼓勵但是對於犯罪所得這一個部分"},{"start":200.344,"end":218.64,"text":"卻發生了不同的解釋的角度那這個就變成說跟我們原來立法我們立法的原意有一點出入因為本來就是填補被害人的損失是所有的犯罪的所得都應該要還給被害人可是發現不對現在是採最狹義的就是報仇收"},{"start":219.341,"end":235.806,"text":"那報仇的時候變成他會出來講說我只有報仇只有五千塊錢那法院認為這就是他個人的犯罪所得於是產生出這樣的結果那我們就覺得如果是這樣的話這個部分恐怕就要用修法的方式把它修了而且呢我們認為說"},{"start":237.566,"end":255.094,"text":"這個裡面又發生實務上又發生很多他在偵審的時候他和解或者是調解可是條件講好了他並沒有履行他沒有履行的情況之下他也獲得了減輕期刑所以呢這個對於被害人來講是保障是不足的所以我們希望說"},{"start":256.114,"end":283.429,"text":"這個部分我們所以希望再修法要朝嚴格的方向來處理嘛不要讓他們隨便減刑嘛就是說你要有實質的填補被害人的損失我們這個時候才考慮得減輕刑刑這樣子對被害人的保護比較周到以上所以現在法務部因為現在也有兩種修法一個邏輯一個是我們把所謂的犯罪所得的定義講得清楚一點然後另外一種是所謂把因改成德嘛就授予法官實際裁量那現在法務部的意見是什麼呢"},{"start":284.451,"end":299.13,"text":"我們是希望我們在就是說除了自白立審自白以外我們建議就是要支付跟被害人達成調解跟和解的全部金額得減金期刑這個用意是在於說"},{"start":300.587,"end":315.419,"text":"剛才委員講得非常清楚有的車手他是10個車手的其中一個他出來收10萬其他的90萬不是他收的可是整個集團的不罰所得是100萬可是他個人只有代收10萬他又只領到5000塊"},{"start":316.88,"end":335.001,"text":"那我們認為說你不能叫他去負擔一百萬全部他一個人去賠我覺得這樣太嚴格我們認為他收了十萬應該就是十萬他應該去跟被害人來和解如果被害人也同意那就這十萬的部分他達成和解他陪他去領了那十萬"},{"start":335.962,"end":351.309,"text":"我們應該就斟酌得減輕其刑所以就是說看他拿多少願意繳回多少好達成什麼盡量補償受害人如果他已經盡其全力然後也願意自白那還是要給法官一定的財產權是用一個兩者兼有的做法這樣子的話不會所有的車手"},{"start":351.949,"end":365.616,"text":"他後來就通通都不自白了如果是這樣子的一個方向那本行基本上競表贊同那我是覺得這種反正細節法律上操作只要能夠有效嚇阻犯罪那都是一件好事我們樂觀其成好 我們請警政署一下好 速發部也支援 法務部謝謝"},{"start":367.998,"end":396.166,"text":"這個我們打詐儀表板這個雖然好像有稍微下降的一些趨勢啦但是其實受詐騙的金額還是非常的高那我想喔這個最常被詐騙的管道依然還是各個網路平台的詐騙廣告訊息啦還是難以根除即便我們修正了打詐釋法但好像野火燒不盡春風吹又生蘇發部我想請教一下蘇發部詐騙廣告經通報下架之後常常出現重複刊登的問題啊"},{"start":397.045,"end":415.985,"text":"那我們現在開罰多少次了目前來講的話警政署有送了一批那我們大概開罰了100萬那其實有另外第二次100萬是100萬次還是100萬元幾個案例兩件兩個案例來警政署署長你送了多少案例"},{"start":417.525,"end":442.006,"text":"我們分成一批是十五件 一批是二十五件一批十五件 一批二十五件對 那個十五件裡面他開罰兩岸第一批的十五件罰了兩岸對 現在還有一批去二十五件 目前他們還在審議當中你覺得他這樣罰了兩岸對於警政署打仗有幫助嗎我覺得還有努力的空間還有努力的空間 好 來 速發部解釋一下為什麼只有兩岸好不好"},{"start":443.732,"end":447.253,"text":"報告一下跟委員講一下就是說這個目前來講的話就是如果有違規來講的話我們大概有12萬及時24小時下架這個都是馬上去run out行政處罰就讓他去下架目前開罰那兩件主要是因為他的那個廣告的那個資訊揭露不完全而導致的"},{"start":462.299,"end":485.578,"text":"那我們評估之後呢大概當然有一些東西是因為系統或怎樣大概檢視一下就是因為這兩件那接下來警政署送的第二批我們也現在正在討論大概我們也正在討論目前正在給他一個展出意見第一批的15件下架之後有沒有重新刊登上去的狀況沒有那個都全部移除掉了全部移除保證24小時內就移除掉了他會不會等到傳過水無痕之後又給你重新出現"},{"start":486.619,"end":499.976,"text":"呃沒有那24小時都下架了不能讓他們匯圖轉身好不好我們要提醒一下啦好好是謝謝委員指導而且該兇就兇那再來我要問第一批15件第二批25件那針對平台源頭你們有沒有持續來做溝通"},{"start":501.549,"end":517.175,"text":"你說Meta嗎?對啊,有,有在溝通,其實他們近期因為我們有發現為什麼會有一直那個廣告揭露不完全的部分,那主要是他那個系統的部分,那我們請他說這個你沒有理由,你一定要趕快去盡快去做修改,那其實這期間來講的話,他們陸陸續續從新加坡的技術團隊或怎樣都有來跟我們去持續溝通,然後再來"},{"start":522.877,"end":546.008,"text":"再來就是說我們也在跟他談一些有一些相關的情資的分享看看怎麼去共同來去做打大其實剛剛也有回答說如何應用AI的東西然後來去判斷他們應該負起一些這個 要去掃描去判斷嘛對對對 大家一起共同理論 今天時間到了啦是不好意思 請速發部提供一下就是說針對這個源頭管理防堵你剛剛講說你跟Meta也好或者是其他的平台有做一定的溝通嘛對不對做了哪些溝通摘要一下"},{"start":546.428,"end":561.56,"text":"好第二個這個警政署也麻煩一下你送了這十五二總共四十件啦那大概的樣態是什麼可不可以稍微整理一下好沒問題你要這種對照一下嘛我在平台上還沒有看到類似的好不好好這樣我們還可以來做會後追蹤請提供相關報告給本集參考可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":476,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時51分）謝謝主席。法務部政次跟警政署署長，有請。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長、署長早安。我們今天討論詐欺犯罪危害防制條例的再修法，原因當然是第四十七條，大家對這個東西認為有一些要調整的地方。今天要修正的第四十七條本來規定犯詐欺犯罪，在偵查及審判過程中自白，並且繳交犯罪所得者可以減輕其刑，應該是說應減輕其刑；並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官得以扣押全部犯罪所得，或查獲發起、主持、操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者，減輕或免除其刑。現在法律上面針對所謂的犯罪所得有不同詮釋，有一說是犯罪所得應該是指從被害人的角度出發，我被騙多少錢，這些被騙走的錢當然就是這個團夥的犯罪所得，對不對？所以在最高法院的刑事大法庭做裁定之前，其實有一些法院是採取這樣子的一個說法。另外一種說法是犯罪所得就限於犯罪人，是從加害人的角度；也就是說，實際取得的個人所得，因為詐騙是一個團體行為，首謀拿到一些、中間幹部拿到一些、末梢車手也拿到了一些；那麼犯罪所得如果僅限於行為人自己的個人所得，比如說車手出去幫忙收這個錢，然後把它轉到哪一個帳戶，給他5,000塊車馬費，這一說就認為他的犯罪所得其實只有5,000塊錢，所以不包含其他詐騙集團成員的獲利，當然也就不包含被害人其他的損害。最後最高法院刑事大法庭統一見解看起來是採取個人的犯罪所得，也就是說車手領到5,000塊，犯罪所得就是5,000塊；這樣子的一個法律詮釋跟切入點就會變成被抓了就只要把這5,000塊繳回去，然後再把該供的人供出來，但車手也不見得知道所有的真實狀況，結果還減輕其刑，到了最後是不是會造成嚇阻的力道不足？所以今天有很多委員就提出了相關的修正案。","我們進到討論之前，我想要先釐清一下事情，我們在去年6月5號排審的時候其實也討論過第四十七條，那時候陳亭妃委員就有提案要把它改成「得」，因為他就有注意到這個事情，可是當初院版是希望建請委員再酌，也就是說當初法務部是支持院版，也就是現在這種只要繳回犯罪所得、只要自白，就可以減輕其刑的狀況。但現在法務部又說要修法，請問這中間的變化是什麼？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們這裡就是剛柔並濟，如果有犯罪所得，其實最終的目的就是要還給被害人，我想被害人關心的是這一塊，就是被騙的錢能夠拿回來。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們為了有效鼓勵這些詐騙相關人願意填補被害人的損害，於是我們希望強度強一點，「應」減輕其刑，這是鼓勵；但是對於犯罪所得這個部分，卻發生了不同的解釋角度，這個就變成跟我們原來的立法原意有一點出入，因為本來就是填補被害人的損失，是所有的犯罪所得都應該要還給被害人，可是發現不對，現在是採最狹義的報酬說，報酬說的話會變成他出來說他的報酬只有5,000塊錢，法院認為這就是他個人的犯罪所得，於是產生出這樣的結果，我們就覺得如果是這樣的話，這個部分恐怕就要用修法的方式把它修了。而且我們認為這個裡面在實務上又發生很多，在偵審的時候和解或者是調解，條件講好了，可是他並沒有履行，他沒有履行的情況之下也獲得了減輕其刑，所以這個對於被害人來講，保障是不足的。因此我們希望這個部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以希望再修法，要朝嚴格的方向來處理嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：不要讓他們隨便被減刑，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：就是一定要有實質填補被害人的損失，我們這個時候才考慮得減輕其刑，這樣子對被害人保護比較周到，以上。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為現在也有兩種修法邏輯：一個是我們把所謂的犯罪所得定義講清楚一點，另外一種是把「應」改成「得」，就是授予法官實際裁量。現在法務部的意見是什麼呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：就是說除了歷審自白以外，我們建議要支付與被害人達成調解跟和解的全部金額，得減輕其刑。這個用意是在於，剛才委員講得非常清楚，有的車手是10個車手的其中一個，他出來收10萬，其他的90萬不是他收的，可是整個集團的不法所得是100萬，但他個人只有代收10萬，他又只領到5,000塊，我們認為不能叫他去負擔100萬，全部就由他一個人去賠。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：我覺得這樣太嚴格，我們認為他收了10萬，應該就是10萬，他應該去跟被害人和解，如果被害人也同意就這10萬的部分達成和解，他就賠償他去領的那10萬，我們應該就斟酌「得」減輕期刑，對於車手……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以也就是看他拿多少，願意繳回多少，達成什麼……儘量補償受害人，如果他已經盡其全力，也願意自白，那還是要給法官一定的裁量權，是用一個兩者皆有的作法？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，這樣子的話，不會所有的車手後來就統統都不自白了。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，如果是這樣子的一個方向，本席基本上是敬表贊同，我是覺得反正細節、法律上操作，只要能夠有效嚇阻犯罪，都是一件好事，我們樂觀其成。","再來請警政署、數發部。謝謝法務部。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們的打詐儀錶板雖然好像有稍微下降一些的趨勢，但是其實受詐騙者的金額還是非常高，我想最常被詐騙的管道依然還是各個網路平臺的詐騙廣告訊息，還是難以根除，即便我們修正了打詐四法，但好像野火燒不盡，春風吹又生。我想請教一下數發部，詐騙廣告經通報下架之後常常出現重複刊登的問題，我們現在開罰多少次？"],["林組長青嶔：目前來講，警政署有送了一批，我們大概開罰了100萬，其實有另外第二次……"],["牛委員煦庭：所謂100萬是100萬次，還是100萬元？"],["林組長青嶔：100萬元。"],["牛委員煦庭：幾個案例？"],["林組長青嶔：兩件。"],["牛委員煦庭：兩個案例！來，警政署署長，你送了多少案例？"],["張署長榮興：我們分成兩批，一批是15件，一批是25件。"],["牛委員煦庭：一批15件，一批25件？"],["張署長榮興：那15件裡面開罰了兩案。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是第一批的15件罰了兩案？"],["張署長榮興：對，現在還有一批25件，目前他們還在審議當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得這樣罰了兩案，對於警政署打詐有幫助嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我覺得還有努力的空間。"],["牛委員煦庭：還有努力的空間！數發部解釋一下為什麼只有兩案，好不好？"],["林組長青嶔：跟委員講一下，目前來講如果有違規的話，我們會要求24小時內下架，否則可處12萬罰鍰，這個都是馬上right now行政處罰讓它下架。目前開罰那兩件主要是因為它的廣告資訊揭露不完全而導致的，我們評估之後，當然有一些東西是因為系統或怎樣，大概檢視一下就是因為這兩件。接下來警政署送的第二批，我們現在也正在討論，目前會請他陳述意見。"],["牛委員煦庭：第一批的15件下架之後，有沒有重新刊登上去的狀況？"],["林組長青嶔：沒有，那個都全部移除掉了。"],["牛委員煦庭：全部移除了？"],["林組長青嶔：保證24小時內就移除掉了。"],["牛委員煦庭：會不會等到船過水無痕之後又重新出現？"],["林組長青嶔：沒有，24小時內都下架了，我們有確認。"],["牛委員煦庭：不能讓他們穢土轉生好不好？我們要提醒一下。"],["林組長青嶔：好，是，謝謝委員指導。"],["牛委員煦庭：而且該兇就兇。再來，我要問第一批15件，第二批25件，針對平臺源頭，你們有沒有持續在做溝通？"],["林組長青嶔：你是說Meta嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！"],["林組長青嶔：有，有在溝通，其實他們近期因為我們發現為什麼會有廣告揭露不完全的部分，主要是他們系統的部分，我們跟他說：這個你沒有理由，你一定要儘快修改。這段期間來講，他們陸陸續續從新加坡的技術團隊或怎樣都有來跟我們持續溝通。再來，我們也在跟他談一些相關的情資分享，看看怎麼共同打詐，其實剛剛也有回答如何應用AI來判斷，他們也要負起一些……"],["牛委員煦庭：去掃瞄、去判斷嘛！"],["林組長青嶔：對，大家一起共同努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為今天時間到了。"],["林組長青嶔：是，不好意思。"],["牛委員煦庭：請數發部提供一下針對源頭管理防堵，你剛剛講你跟Meta也好，或者是其他平臺，有做一定的溝通，對不對？"],["林組長青嶔：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：做了哪些溝通摘要一下。"],["林組長青嶔：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，警政署也麻煩一下，你送了總共40件，大概的樣態是什麼可不可以稍微整理一下？"],["張署長榮興：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要讓我對照一下嘛！我在平臺上還有沒有看到類似的，好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣我們可以做會後追蹤，請提供相關報告給本席參考，可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以，沒問題。"],["林組長青嶔：好，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，大家辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝，感謝牛煦庭召委。","請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-27","speakers":["張宏陸","王定宇","王義川","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","吳琪銘","高金素梅","丁學忠","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員\n張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林宜瑾\n等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員王義川等16人\n擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員陳素月等 18 人擬具\n「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1146401_00001"}}}