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67.84, \"end\": 68.14, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"轻\", \"start\": 68.14, \"end\": 68.5, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 68.5, \"end\": 68.841, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 68.841, \"end\": 68.861, \"score\": 0.04}]}, {\"start\": 70.034, \"end\": 96.247, \"text\": \"那我們在這邊我們是不是同步也請司法院今天有沒有人來有我們請吳法官就是我們看到這個最高法院113年度台上大字第4096號的裁定他說只要詐欺犯自白並且繳回犯罪所得那人可獲得減刑\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 70.034, \"end\": 71.155, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 71.155, \"end\": 71.495, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 71.495, \"end\": 72.095, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 72.095, \"end\": 72.355, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 72.355, \"end\": 72.475, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 72.475, \"end\": 72.495, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 72.495, \"end\": 72.735, \"score\": 0.853}, 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\"end\": 889.218, \"score\": 0.588}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 889.218, \"end\": 889.598, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 889.598, \"end\": 889.618, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:04,271\n謝謝主席本席先請法務部次長請到法務部次長委員好次長好第一次遇到您還是我本家的許家首先今天要跟您特別談我想很多人談詐欺現在民眾最大的痛苦\n\n2\n00:00:29,724 --> 00:00:53,008\n本席也在院會也多次質詢被詐騙就是很痛苦了但是沒關係怎麼樣可以減輕他的痛苦就是他被詐騙的錢能夠想辦法返還回來對不對所以我們這邊有一個我們今天談一個詐欺犯罪危害條例第47條\n\n3\n00:00:56,414 --> 00:01:08,861\n这个诈欺犯罪他如果有自白或者是犯罪所得自动缴交可以减轻其刑\n\n4\n00:01:10,034 --> 00:01:36,247\n那我們在這邊我們是不是同步也請司法院今天有沒有人來有我們請吳法官就是我們看到這個最高法院113年度台上大字第4096號的裁定他說只要詐欺犯自白並且繳回犯罪所得那人可獲得減刑\n\n5\n00:01:38,308 --> 00:02:03,785\n那這樣的見解就變成如果我們受害人他被騙一千萬結果那個車手他可能一千萬車手只拿到假設十萬那他繳回十萬那他就可以減輕刑責的話那會不會我們擔心最後就變成\n\n6\n00:02:05,220 --> 00:02:33,435\n這一些詐騙集團他就車手一直換一直換因為他還可以宣傳說沒關係沒關係這個這個可以減輕刑責那這樣我們的利益這我們這個剛剛念的第47條他希望被害人獲得賠償而且呢有效溯源就是我們其實還要找到上游的這有點背道而馳\n\n7\n00:02:34,898 --> 00:03:01,365\n所以這個部分的法令好像定的變成我們不僅沒有幫助到我們的被害人被害人損失五百萬一千萬還個十萬甚至五萬他說我才拿兩千塊當然證據查到也許真的通常第一線的車手拿的少那所以這樣變成我們的法令並沒有讓整個\n\n8\n00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:29,378\n這個詐欺這個詐騙減少本席手上也看到一個很可怕的數字今年五月就上個月光是一個月詐騙就一萬六千零三件整個總財務的損失是87億這很可怕我們之前可能一整年也才不知道這個幾百億或幾十億現在呢可能一年都是幾千億\n\n9\n00:03:30,643 --> 00:03:43,873\n所以這個部分你們的看法怎麼樣報告委員我想最高法院的這個裁定他對於犯罪所得他採用的是被告的一個報酬說\n\n10\n00:03:44,793 --> 00:04:07,509\n那他整理是比較狹隘的他解釋上他是犯罪所得那你覺得要不要修法你覺得要不要修我們尾以尊重可是這個會有一個風險就是被告以後只要自白而且片面控訴片面喔對片面控訴就是說我只有我沒有所得甚至於我的所得只有一千塊他只要把這一千塊繳回來他就可以減刑我想這樣的\n\n11\n00:04:09,387 --> 00:04:18,218\n這個跟我們原來立法的意思就完全是不符合所以我們現在就考慮我們用修法的方式我們把條文犯罪所得這四個字\n\n12\n00:04:19,574 --> 00:04:37,779\n沒有沒有我們的草案在行政院什麼時候要送出來一個月87億一萬多件但是對於委員今天的提案我們也都提供建議我們是希望採用另外一個方式我剛剛問的是你們已經有了你們有草案了因為我跟你講你們很專業\n\n13\n00:04:39,019 --> 00:05:05,744\n你們可能比我們立委什麼都專業你們在立行政院什麼時候要送過來我們可以用建議我們的設計是這樣他如果詐騙集團騙了一百萬他用了十個車手十個車手一個人都騙十萬領十萬他們報酬可能只有一千塊或是五千塊我們今天如果要求車手每個人都要賠一百萬\n\n14\n00:05:06,764 --> 00:05:24,291\n那這樣子對某些車手他乾脆就不自白了太多了那如果我們把他設定說由你自己去跟被害人和解跟調解如果被害人也認為說對沒錯你給我拿十萬你願意賠償這十萬的部分法官得減輕刑刑\n\n15\n00:05:25,211 --> 00:05:38,725\n所以你們是贊成這個立場今天有委員提我也有簽署我們是希望盡量多一點讓被害人接受說就他的部分我願意跟他和解只要他履行支付了但是你剛剛舉例是100萬是10個車手對同一個人騙100萬嗎對\n\n16\n00:05:45,291 --> 00:06:13,098\n那可是如果今天騙的這個第一線的他可能騙走他五百萬但是中間有中油還有上油但他真的只拿一百萬呢我們現在針對的是這一個行為人他可能是車手可能是車手頭我們就看他所造成的危害有多少那本席是想建議就是說是不是可以返還金額還要有一定的比例\n\n17\n00:06:13,718 --> 00:06:30,833\n你比例太少比如說他被騙一千萬結果他只返還他好啦一百萬或剩五十萬這個對被害人來說還是差太遠嘛所以是不是可以你今天如果返還金額不到一定的比例你供出上游我可以給你減輕\n\n18\n00:06:32,045 --> 00:06:36,467\n可是不能說隨便我五千塊了事我就拿五千塊有嗎你們有這方面的不是另外一個我是針對他如果這個\n\n19\n00:06:45,031 --> 00:07:03,662\n那被害人覺得說我一毛都拿不到跟你協調我我多少拿個幾萬塊回來可是這樣還是不夠我本席建議我們的任何一個法你要減輕他一定要不要all要end就是說還有他要供出上游\n\n20\n00:07:04,781 --> 00:07:14,732\n才可以減輕甚至如果他不公出上游你一律羈押你們有沒有這樣的這樣的一個那個羈押是由檢察官個案認定跟法官的裁定所以\n\n21\n00:07:18,001 --> 00:07:43,470\n那個我想我們希望啦就是你還是你的法令要真的有效打擊犯罪然後供出上游因為現在很多詐騙集團他都是底下的被抓所以你案件多到不行啊所以供出上游這個可不可以列為減刑最重要的他等於是必要條件必要條件有沒有沒有可以免除其刑\n\n22\n00:07:44,264 --> 00:08:08,105\n不是只有減輕而已可以免除其刑所以只要供出上游就減輕整個免除其刑就沒有刑責還要自白還要符合前面的自白跟當事人如果有和解也要履行和解條件然後再供出上游或者是因此查扣所有的不法所得那個被害的所有的金額我們才會給他\n\n23\n00:08:10,295 --> 00:08:29,471\n減輕或者是免除畸形好OK那最後一點點時間本席再問一個問題這個我不知道這個應該是不知道是內政部長還是我們法務還是都有包含銀行局那謝謝法官那您可以先回那現在我們還有一個\n\n24\n00:08:31,593 --> 00:08:58,151\n針對詐騙受害者所有銀行帳戶還要被列警示告誡帳戶限制使用這個是加重受害者的痛苦啊我想你們應該知道現在很多的實務包括老實講我們在立法院的助理還有地方民意代表的助理甚至很多公務人員因為現在詐騙被受害就是被詐騙者受害者太多了那這個\n\n25\n00:09:00,551 --> 00:09:29,666\n詐騙被害人他被標為警示帳戶之後他的生活還有他的薪資帳戶整個都被凍結了即便法院還他清白了可是因為過30日的訴願期限他還是沒辦法解除告戒戶的身份陷入長期困境所以我想因為時間關係我也不講太多就是這個方向那我們覺得是不是應該就是說\n\n26\n00:09:32,612 --> 00:09:39,945\n有關這個帳戶的部分你應該要分你要分成它是高中低的風險這塊是法務部的\n\n27\n00:09:44,853 --> 00:10:10,041\n這個帳戶的部分是哪一個單位是金管會那請金管會來我看一下不好意思金管會只有來組長還有還有銀行局拜託也來一下王副組長不好意思委員那個告誡是這邊不好意思委員有關告誡戶那個是法務部那個規定他們之前已經有找法務部規定了你們不要互推我如果是告誡的話那個他們就是說\n\n28\n00:10:13,658 --> 00:10:37,306\n現在帳戶沒有依金流和行為模式分成高中低風險你一刀切全部都僅是帳戶現在很多人他已經夠可憐我就是受害者結果我的帳戶我所有帳戶我不是只有被不小心被騙的那個帳戶我所有這個名字這個身份證字號的所有帳戶被你凍結我都沒有帳戶可以用\n\n29\n00:10:38,146 --> 00:10:54,658\n那在生活上造成很大的困擾包括跟他的家人什麼的這個問題很大所以這個部分我們希望是不是可以來改進不是他說要分級分級誰的權利\n\n30\n00:10:57,458 --> 00:11:24,091\n好那我這樣子啦除了這個分級還有整合刑事和行政程序有沒有辦法建立一站式的救濟窗口這個是告誡本身是這個行政處分那不符的話本來就可以提起訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟這本來就已經或不起訴處分者是不是可以啟動他三日內出審解除程序這一個有沒有可能\n\n31\n00:11:25,492 --> 00:11:46,300\n不起訴處分跟告誡沒有關係他或不起訴處分的那這個是不是可以為低風險帳戶然後就解除它整個你把它變成警示帳戶的程序今天提供帳戶的原因很多種有些原因是檢察官認為不構成\n\n32\n00:11:48,320 --> 00:12:11,386\n詐欺行為所以不起訴處分可是他還是把帳戶提供給人家使用所以才會被告誡是列為警示帳戶所以這跟不起訴處分構成犯罪是不一樣的那這樣子的一個不起訴處分跟原來的告誡是不一樣是沒有絕對的關係那就告誡的部分是可以達可以尋求訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟\n\n33\n00:12:12,776 --> 00:12:32,375\n那現在就是說你剛剛講某一種情況嘛但我們現在就是說他是受害者我是這個戶頭轉出去他就是因為他中間有一個提供他的帳戶給別人來使用是這樣才會被告誡他不是這樣的情況他的帳戶還是被凍結啊\n\n34\n00:12:35,193 --> 00:13:02,563\n而且還有他現在就是說他就是受害者他的帳戶一直被凍結這種情況就是這種情況你們有什麼方式可以幫民眾能不能盡速幫他幫他審查然後解除程序有沒有這樣的一個機制這個真的很多人耶真的很多人耶我知道講起來我說他本來就是告誡就是行政處分本來就可以用訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟\n\n35\n00:13:04,571 --> 00:13:21,307\n你要用訴願跟行政訴訟他跟不起訴處分沒有絕對的關係那是不一樣的東西那現在如果是低風險帳戶有沒有辦法建立一個譬如說一週內或三日內幫他解除這個帳戶的程序有沒有辦法解除帳戶的程序應該不是法務部是哪個單位\n\n36\n00:13:30,714 --> 00:13:54,777\n這個一定要有一個答案現在沒有辦法依照現有的規定直接就把它解除沒有辦法那現在你們可不可以去想一下受害者他是受害者他這個途徑就是行政訴訟現在是只有行政訴訟我懂也有一些人有拿到法院的判決有人拿到\n\n37\n00:13:55,728 --> 00:14:10,297\n不是啊現在我的意思他就是受害者那很多事情釐清之後能不能有快速的程序我的問題一直是這樣我知道可以嗎你們現在有辦法去研擬這樣的一個對民眾方便的可以嗎\n\n38\n00:14:13,987 --> 00:14:20,051\n兩週後給我們委員會那個回覆好不好我們之前有開過研商會議我們有開過研商會議也提供了一些解決的方式\n\n39\n00:14:32,140 --> 00:14:49,618\n不是不是你是之前提了延伤的方式开始实施了没如果开始实施那个方式是绝对不行的因为我们每天这个接触碰太多他们真的很可怜你特别针对我们所提的提出来好不好是好谢谢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t4271\t謝謝主席本席先請法務部次長請到法務部次長委員好次長好第一次遇到您還是我本家的許家首先今天要跟您特別談我想很多人談詐欺現在民眾最大的痛苦\n29724\t53008\t本席也在院會也多次質詢被詐騙就是很痛苦了但是沒關係怎麼樣可以減輕他的痛苦就是他被詐騙的錢能夠想辦法返還回來對不對所以我們這邊有一個我們今天談一個詐欺犯罪危害條例第47條\n56414\t68861\t这个诈欺犯罪他如果有自白或者是犯罪所得自动缴交可以减轻其刑\n70034\t96247\t那我們在這邊我們是不是同步也請司法院今天有沒有人來有我們請吳法官就是我們看到這個最高法院113年度台上大字第4096號的裁定他說只要詐欺犯自白並且繳回犯罪所得那人可獲得減刑\n98308\t123785\t那這樣的見解就變成如果我們受害人他被騙一千萬結果那個車手他可能一千萬車手只拿到假設十萬那他繳回十萬那他就可以減輕刑責的話那會不會我們擔心最後就變成\n125220\t153435\t這一些詐騙集團他就車手一直換一直換因為他還可以宣傳說沒關係沒關係這個這個可以減輕刑責那這樣我們的利益這我們這個剛剛念的第47條他希望被害人獲得賠償而且呢有效溯源就是我們其實還要找到上游的這有點背道而馳\n154898\t181365\t所以這個部分的法令好像定的變成我們不僅沒有幫助到我們的被害人被害人損失五百萬一千萬還個十萬甚至五萬他說我才拿兩千塊當然證據查到也許真的通常第一線的車手拿的少那所以這樣變成我們的法令並沒有讓整個\n184400\t209378\t這個詐欺這個詐騙減少本席手上也看到一個很可怕的數字今年五月就上個月光是一個月詐騙就一萬六千零三件整個總財務的損失是87億這很可怕我們之前可能一整年也才不知道這個幾百億或幾十億現在呢可能一年都是幾千億\n210643\t223873\t所以這個部分你們的看法怎麼樣報告委員我想最高法院的這個裁定他對於犯罪所得他採用的是被告的一個報酬說\n224793\t247509\t那他整理是比較狹隘的他解釋上他是犯罪所得那你覺得要不要修法你覺得要不要修我們尾以尊重可是這個會有一個風險就是被告以後只要自白而且片面控訴片面喔對片面控訴就是說我只有我沒有所得甚至於我的所得只有一千塊他只要把這一千塊繳回來他就可以減刑我想這樣的\n249387\t258218\t這個跟我們原來立法的意思就完全是不符合所以我們現在就考慮我們用修法的方式我們把條文犯罪所得這四個字\n259574\t277779\t沒有沒有我們的草案在行政院什麼時候要送出來一個月87億一萬多件但是對於委員今天的提案我們也都提供建議我們是希望採用另外一個方式我剛剛問的是你們已經有了你們有草案了因為我跟你講你們很專業\n279019\t305744\t你們可能比我們立委什麼都專業你們在立行政院什麼時候要送過來我們可以用建議我們的設計是這樣他如果詐騙集團騙了一百萬他用了十個車手十個車手一個人都騙十萬領十萬他們報酬可能只有一千塊或是五千塊我們今天如果要求車手每個人都要賠一百萬\n306764\t324291\t那這樣子對某些車手他乾脆就不自白了太多了那如果我們把他設定說由你自己去跟被害人和解跟調解如果被害人也認為說對沒錯你給我拿十萬你願意賠償這十萬的部分法官得減輕刑刑\n325211\t338725\t所以你們是贊成這個立場今天有委員提我也有簽署我們是希望盡量多一點讓被害人接受說就他的部分我願意跟他和解只要他履行支付了但是你剛剛舉例是100萬是10個車手對同一個人騙100萬嗎對\n345291\t373098\t那可是如果今天騙的這個第一線的他可能騙走他五百萬但是中間有中油還有上油但他真的只拿一百萬呢我們現在針對的是這一個行為人他可能是車手可能是車手頭我們就看他所造成的危害有多少那本席是想建議就是說是不是可以返還金額還要有一定的比例\n373718\t390833\t你比例太少比如說他被騙一千萬結果他只返還他好啦一百萬或剩五十萬這個對被害人來說還是差太遠嘛所以是不是可以你今天如果返還金額不到一定的比例你供出上游我可以給你減輕\n392045\t396467\t可是不能說隨便我五千塊了事我就拿五千塊有嗎你們有這方面的不是另外一個我是針對他如果這個\n405031\t423662\t那被害人覺得說我一毛都拿不到跟你協調我我多少拿個幾萬塊回來可是這樣還是不夠我本席建議我們的任何一個法你要減輕他一定要不要all要end就是說還有他要供出上游\n424781\t434732\t才可以減輕甚至如果他不公出上游你一律羈押你們有沒有這樣的這樣的一個那個羈押是由檢察官個案認定跟法官的裁定所以\n438001\t463470\t那個我想我們希望啦就是你還是你的法令要真的有效打擊犯罪然後供出上游因為現在很多詐騙集團他都是底下的被抓所以你案件多到不行啊所以供出上游這個可不可以列為減刑最重要的他等於是必要條件必要條件有沒有沒有可以免除其刑\n464264\t488105\t不是只有減輕而已可以免除其刑所以只要供出上游就減輕整個免除其刑就沒有刑責還要自白還要符合前面的自白跟當事人如果有和解也要履行和解條件然後再供出上游或者是因此查扣所有的不法所得那個被害的所有的金額我們才會給他\n490295\t509471\t減輕或者是免除畸形好OK那最後一點點時間本席再問一個問題這個我不知道這個應該是不知道是內政部長還是我們法務還是都有包含銀行局那謝謝法官那您可以先回那現在我們還有一個\n511593\t538151\t針對詐騙受害者所有銀行帳戶還要被列警示告誡帳戶限制使用這個是加重受害者的痛苦啊我想你們應該知道現在很多的實務包括老實講我們在立法院的助理還有地方民意代表的助理甚至很多公務人員因為現在詐騙被受害就是被詐騙者受害者太多了那這個\n540551\t569666\t詐騙被害人他被標為警示帳戶之後他的生活還有他的薪資帳戶整個都被凍結了即便法院還他清白了可是因為過30日的訴願期限他還是沒辦法解除告戒戶的身份陷入長期困境所以我想因為時間關係我也不講太多就是這個方向那我們覺得是不是應該就是說\n572612\t579945\t有關這個帳戶的部分你應該要分你要分成它是高中低的風險這塊是法務部的\n584853\t610041\t這個帳戶的部分是哪一個單位是金管會那請金管會來我看一下不好意思金管會只有來組長還有還有銀行局拜託也來一下王副組長不好意思委員那個告誡是這邊不好意思委員有關告誡戶那個是法務部那個規定他們之前已經有找法務部規定了你們不要互推我如果是告誡的話那個他們就是說\n613658\t637306\t現在帳戶沒有依金流和行為模式分成高中低風險你一刀切全部都僅是帳戶現在很多人他已經夠可憐我就是受害者結果我的帳戶我所有帳戶我不是只有被不小心被騙的那個帳戶我所有這個名字這個身份證字號的所有帳戶被你凍結我都沒有帳戶可以用\n638146\t654658\t那在生活上造成很大的困擾包括跟他的家人什麼的這個問題很大所以這個部分我們希望是不是可以來改進不是 他說要分級分級誰的權利\n657458\t684091\t好那我這樣子啦 除了這個分級還有整合刑事和行政程序有沒有辦法建立一站式的救濟窗口這個是告誡本身是這個行政處分那不符的話本來就可以提起訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟這本來就已經或不起訴處分者是不是可以啟動他三日內出審解除程序這一個有沒有可能\n685492\t706300\t不起訴處分跟告誡沒有關係他或不起訴處分的那這個是不是可以為低風險帳戶然後就解除它整個你把它變成警示帳戶的程序今天提供帳戶的原因很多種有些原因是檢察官認為不構成\n708320\t731386\t詐欺行為所以不起訴處分可是他還是把帳戶提供給人家使用所以才會被告誡是列為警示帳戶所以這跟不起訴處分構成犯罪是不一樣的那這樣子的一個不起訴處分跟原來的告誡是不一樣是沒有絕對的關係那就告誡的部分是可以達可以尋求訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟\n732776\t752375\t那現在就是說你剛剛講某一種情況嘛但我們現在就是說他是受害者我是這個戶頭轉出去他就是因為他中間有一個提供他的帳戶給別人來使用是這樣才會被告誡他不是這樣的情況他的帳戶還是被凍結啊\n755193\t782563\t而且還有他現在就是說他就是受害者他的帳戶一直被凍結這種情況就是這種情況你們有什麼方式可以幫民眾能不能盡速幫他幫他審查然後解除程序有沒有這樣的一個機制這個真的很多人耶真的很多人耶我知道講起來我說他本來就是告誡就是行政處分本來就可以用訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟\n784571\t801307\t你要用訴願跟行政訴訟他跟不起訴處分沒有絕對的關係那是不一樣的東西那現在如果是低風險帳戶有沒有辦法建立一個譬如說一週內或三日內幫他解除這個帳戶的程序有沒有辦法解除帳戶的程序應該不是法務部是哪個單位\n810714\t834777\t這個一定要有一個答案現在沒有辦法依照現有的規定直接就把它解除沒有辦法那現在你們可不可以去想一下受害者他是受害者他這個途徑就是行政訴訟現在是只有行政訴訟我懂也有一些人有拿到法院的判決有人拿到\n835728\t850297\t不是啊現在我的意思他就是受害者那很多事情釐清之後能不能有快速的程序我的問題一直是這樣我知道可以嗎你們現在有辦法去研擬這樣的一個對民眾方便的可以嗎\n853987\t860051\t兩週後給我們委員會那個回覆好不好我們之前有開過研商會議我們有開過研商會議也提供了一些解決的方式\n872140\t889618\t不是不是你是之前提了延伤的方式开始实施了没如果开始实施那个方式是绝对不行的因为我们每天这个接触碰太多他们真的很可怜你特别针对我们所提的提出来好不好是好谢谢\n","txt":"謝謝主席本席先請法務部次長請到法務部次長委員好次長好第一次遇到您還是我本家的許家首先今天要跟您特別談我想很多人談詐欺現在民眾最大的痛苦\n本席也在院會也多次質詢被詐騙就是很痛苦了但是沒關係怎麼樣可以減輕他的痛苦就是他被詐騙的錢能夠想辦法返還回來對不對所以我們這邊有一個我們今天談一個詐欺犯罪危害條例第47條\n这个诈欺犯罪他如果有自白或者是犯罪所得自动缴交可以减轻其刑\n那我們在這邊我們是不是同步也請司法院今天有沒有人來有我們請吳法官就是我們看到這個最高法院113年度台上大字第4096號的裁定他說只要詐欺犯自白並且繳回犯罪所得那人可獲得減刑\n那這樣的見解就變成如果我們受害人他被騙一千萬結果那個車手他可能一千萬車手只拿到假設十萬那他繳回十萬那他就可以減輕刑責的話那會不會我們擔心最後就變成\n這一些詐騙集團他就車手一直換一直換因為他還可以宣傳說沒關係沒關係這個這個可以減輕刑責那這樣我們的利益這我們這個剛剛念的第47條他希望被害人獲得賠償而且呢有效溯源就是我們其實還要找到上游的這有點背道而馳\n所以這個部分的法令好像定的變成我們不僅沒有幫助到我們的被害人被害人損失五百萬一千萬還個十萬甚至五萬他說我才拿兩千塊當然證據查到也許真的通常第一線的車手拿的少那所以這樣變成我們的法令並沒有讓整個\n這個詐欺這個詐騙減少本席手上也看到一個很可怕的數字今年五月就上個月光是一個月詐騙就一萬六千零三件整個總財務的損失是87億這很可怕我們之前可能一整年也才不知道這個幾百億或幾十億現在呢可能一年都是幾千億\n所以這個部分你們的看法怎麼樣報告委員我想最高法院的這個裁定他對於犯罪所得他採用的是被告的一個報酬說\n那他整理是比較狹隘的他解釋上他是犯罪所得那你覺得要不要修法你覺得要不要修我們尾以尊重可是這個會有一個風險就是被告以後只要自白而且片面控訴片面喔對片面控訴就是說我只有我沒有所得甚至於我的所得只有一千塊他只要把這一千塊繳回來他就可以減刑我想這樣的\n這個跟我們原來立法的意思就完全是不符合所以我們現在就考慮我們用修法的方式我們把條文犯罪所得這四個字\n沒有沒有我們的草案在行政院什麼時候要送出來一個月87億一萬多件但是對於委員今天的提案我們也都提供建議我們是希望採用另外一個方式我剛剛問的是你們已經有了你們有草案了因為我跟你講你們很專業\n你們可能比我們立委什麼都專業你們在立行政院什麼時候要送過來我們可以用建議我們的設計是這樣他如果詐騙集團騙了一百萬他用了十個車手十個車手一個人都騙十萬領十萬他們報酬可能只有一千塊或是五千塊我們今天如果要求車手每個人都要賠一百萬\n那這樣子對某些車手他乾脆就不自白了太多了那如果我們把他設定說由你自己去跟被害人和解跟調解如果被害人也認為說對沒錯你給我拿十萬你願意賠償這十萬的部分法官得減輕刑刑\n所以你們是贊成這個立場今天有委員提我也有簽署我們是希望盡量多一點讓被害人接受說就他的部分我願意跟他和解只要他履行支付了但是你剛剛舉例是100萬是10個車手對同一個人騙100萬嗎對\n那可是如果今天騙的這個第一線的他可能騙走他五百萬但是中間有中油還有上油但他真的只拿一百萬呢我們現在針對的是這一個行為人他可能是車手可能是車手頭我們就看他所造成的危害有多少那本席是想建議就是說是不是可以返還金額還要有一定的比例\n你比例太少比如說他被騙一千萬結果他只返還他好啦一百萬或剩五十萬這個對被害人來說還是差太遠嘛所以是不是可以你今天如果返還金額不到一定的比例你供出上游我可以給你減輕\n可是不能說隨便我五千塊了事我就拿五千塊有嗎你們有這方面的不是另外一個我是針對他如果這個\n那被害人覺得說我一毛都拿不到跟你協調我我多少拿個幾萬塊回來可是這樣還是不夠我本席建議我們的任何一個法你要減輕他一定要不要all要end就是說還有他要供出上游\n才可以減輕甚至如果他不公出上游你一律羈押你們有沒有這樣的這樣的一個那個羈押是由檢察官個案認定跟法官的裁定所以\n那個我想我們希望啦就是你還是你的法令要真的有效打擊犯罪然後供出上游因為現在很多詐騙集團他都是底下的被抓所以你案件多到不行啊所以供出上游這個可不可以列為減刑最重要的他等於是必要條件必要條件有沒有沒有可以免除其刑\n不是只有減輕而已可以免除其刑所以只要供出上游就減輕整個免除其刑就沒有刑責還要自白還要符合前面的自白跟當事人如果有和解也要履行和解條件然後再供出上游或者是因此查扣所有的不法所得那個被害的所有的金額我們才會給他\n減輕或者是免除畸形好OK那最後一點點時間本席再問一個問題這個我不知道這個應該是不知道是內政部長還是我們法務還是都有包含銀行局那謝謝法官那您可以先回那現在我們還有一個\n針對詐騙受害者所有銀行帳戶還要被列警示告誡帳戶限制使用這個是加重受害者的痛苦啊我想你們應該知道現在很多的實務包括老實講我們在立法院的助理還有地方民意代表的助理甚至很多公務人員因為現在詐騙被受害就是被詐騙者受害者太多了那這個\n詐騙被害人他被標為警示帳戶之後他的生活還有他的薪資帳戶整個都被凍結了即便法院還他清白了可是因為過30日的訴願期限他還是沒辦法解除告戒戶的身份陷入長期困境所以我想因為時間關係我也不講太多就是這個方向那我們覺得是不是應該就是說\n有關這個帳戶的部分你應該要分你要分成它是高中低的風險這塊是法務部的\n這個帳戶的部分是哪一個單位是金管會那請金管會來我看一下不好意思金管會只有來組長還有還有銀行局拜託也來一下王副組長不好意思委員那個告誡是這邊不好意思委員有關告誡戶那個是法務部那個規定他們之前已經有找法務部規定了你們不要互推我如果是告誡的話那個他們就是說\n現在帳戶沒有依金流和行為模式分成高中低風險你一刀切全部都僅是帳戶現在很多人他已經夠可憐我就是受害者結果我的帳戶我所有帳戶我不是只有被不小心被騙的那個帳戶我所有這個名字這個身份證字號的所有帳戶被你凍結我都沒有帳戶可以用\n那在生活上造成很大的困擾包括跟他的家人什麼的這個問題很大所以這個部分我們希望是不是可以來改進不是 他說要分級分級誰的權利\n好那我這樣子啦 除了這個分級還有整合刑事和行政程序有沒有辦法建立一站式的救濟窗口這個是告誡本身是這個行政處分那不符的話本來就可以提起訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟這本來就已經或不起訴處分者是不是可以啟動他三日內出審解除程序這一個有沒有可能\n不起訴處分跟告誡沒有關係他或不起訴處分的那這個是不是可以為低風險帳戶然後就解除它整個你把它變成警示帳戶的程序今天提供帳戶的原因很多種有些原因是檢察官認為不構成\n詐欺行為所以不起訴處分可是他還是把帳戶提供給人家使用所以才會被告誡是列為警示帳戶所以這跟不起訴處分構成犯罪是不一樣的那這樣子的一個不起訴處分跟原來的告誡是不一樣是沒有絕對的關係那就告誡的部分是可以達可以尋求訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟\n那現在就是說你剛剛講某一種情況嘛但我們現在就是說他是受害者我是這個戶頭轉出去他就是因為他中間有一個提供他的帳戶給別人來使用是這樣才會被告誡他不是這樣的情況他的帳戶還是被凍結啊\n而且還有他現在就是說他就是受害者他的帳戶一直被凍結這種情況就是這種情況你們有什麼方式可以幫民眾能不能盡速幫他幫他審查然後解除程序有沒有這樣的一個機制這個真的很多人耶真的很多人耶我知道講起來我說他本來就是告誡就是行政處分本來就可以用訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟\n你要用訴願跟行政訴訟他跟不起訴處分沒有絕對的關係那是不一樣的東西那現在如果是低風險帳戶有沒有辦法建立一個譬如說一週內或三日內幫他解除這個帳戶的程序有沒有辦法解除帳戶的程序應該不是法務部是哪個單位\n這個一定要有一個答案現在沒有辦法依照現有的規定直接就把它解除沒有辦法那現在你們可不可以去想一下受害者他是受害者他這個途徑就是行政訴訟現在是只有行政訴訟我懂也有一些人有拿到法院的判決有人拿到\n不是啊現在我的意思他就是受害者那很多事情釐清之後能不能有快速的程序我的問題一直是這樣我知道可以嗎你們現在有辦法去研擬這樣的一個對民眾方便的可以嗎\n兩週後給我們委員會那個回覆好不好我們之前有開過研商會議我們有開過研商會議也提供了一些解決的方式\n不是不是你是之前提了延伤的方式开始实施了没如果开始实施那个方式是绝对不行的因为我们每天这个接触碰太多他们真的很可怜你特别针对我们所提的提出来好不好是好谢谢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:04.271\n謝謝主席本席先請法務部次長請到法務部次長委員好次長好第一次遇到您還是我本家的許家首先今天要跟您特別談我想很多人談詐欺現在民眾最大的痛苦\n\n00:29.724 --> 00:53.008\n本席也在院會也多次質詢被詐騙就是很痛苦了但是沒關係怎麼樣可以減輕他的痛苦就是他被詐騙的錢能夠想辦法返還回來對不對所以我們這邊有一個我們今天談一個詐欺犯罪危害條例第47條\n\n00:56.414 --> 01:08.861\n这个诈欺犯罪他如果有自白或者是犯罪所得自动缴交可以减轻其刑\n\n01:10.034 --> 01:36.247\n那我們在這邊我們是不是同步也請司法院今天有沒有人來有我們請吳法官就是我們看到這個最高法院113年度台上大字第4096號的裁定他說只要詐欺犯自白並且繳回犯罪所得那人可獲得減刑\n\n01:38.308 --> 02:03.785\n那這樣的見解就變成如果我們受害人他被騙一千萬結果那個車手他可能一千萬車手只拿到假設十萬那他繳回十萬那他就可以減輕刑責的話那會不會我們擔心最後就變成\n\n02:05.220 --> 02:33.435\n這一些詐騙集團他就車手一直換一直換因為他還可以宣傳說沒關係沒關係這個這個可以減輕刑責那這樣我們的利益這我們這個剛剛念的第47條他希望被害人獲得賠償而且呢有效溯源就是我們其實還要找到上游的這有點背道而馳\n\n02:34.898 --> 03:01.365\n所以這個部分的法令好像定的變成我們不僅沒有幫助到我們的被害人被害人損失五百萬一千萬還個十萬甚至五萬他說我才拿兩千塊當然證據查到也許真的通常第一線的車手拿的少那所以這樣變成我們的法令並沒有讓整個\n\n03:04.400 --> 03:29.378\n這個詐欺這個詐騙減少本席手上也看到一個很可怕的數字今年五月就上個月光是一個月詐騙就一萬六千零三件整個總財務的損失是87億這很可怕我們之前可能一整年也才不知道這個幾百億或幾十億現在呢可能一年都是幾千億\n\n03:30.643 --> 03:43.873\n所以這個部分你們的看法怎麼樣報告委員我想最高法院的這個裁定他對於犯罪所得他採用的是被告的一個報酬說\n\n03:44.793 --> 04:07.509\n那他整理是比較狹隘的他解釋上他是犯罪所得那你覺得要不要修法你覺得要不要修我們尾以尊重可是這個會有一個風險就是被告以後只要自白而且片面控訴片面喔對片面控訴就是說我只有我沒有所得甚至於我的所得只有一千塊他只要把這一千塊繳回來他就可以減刑我想這樣的\n\n04:09.387 --> 04:18.218\n這個跟我們原來立法的意思就完全是不符合所以我們現在就考慮我們用修法的方式我們把條文犯罪所得這四個字\n\n04:19.574 --> 04:37.779\n沒有沒有我們的草案在行政院什麼時候要送出來一個月87億一萬多件但是對於委員今天的提案我們也都提供建議我們是希望採用另外一個方式我剛剛問的是你們已經有了你們有草案了因為我跟你講你們很專業\n\n04:39.019 --> 05:05.744\n你們可能比我們立委什麼都專業你們在立行政院什麼時候要送過來我們可以用建議我們的設計是這樣他如果詐騙集團騙了一百萬他用了十個車手十個車手一個人都騙十萬領十萬他們報酬可能只有一千塊或是五千塊我們今天如果要求車手每個人都要賠一百萬\n\n05:06.764 --> 05:24.291\n那這樣子對某些車手他乾脆就不自白了太多了那如果我們把他設定說由你自己去跟被害人和解跟調解如果被害人也認為說對沒錯你給我拿十萬你願意賠償這十萬的部分法官得減輕刑刑\n\n05:25.211 --> 05:38.725\n所以你們是贊成這個立場今天有委員提我也有簽署我們是希望盡量多一點讓被害人接受說就他的部分我願意跟他和解只要他履行支付了但是你剛剛舉例是100萬是10個車手對同一個人騙100萬嗎對\n\n05:45.291 --> 06:13.098\n那可是如果今天騙的這個第一線的他可能騙走他五百萬但是中間有中油還有上油但他真的只拿一百萬呢我們現在針對的是這一個行為人他可能是車手可能是車手頭我們就看他所造成的危害有多少那本席是想建議就是說是不是可以返還金額還要有一定的比例\n\n06:13.718 --> 06:30.833\n你比例太少比如說他被騙一千萬結果他只返還他好啦一百萬或剩五十萬這個對被害人來說還是差太遠嘛所以是不是可以你今天如果返還金額不到一定的比例你供出上游我可以給你減輕\n\n06:32.045 --> 06:36.467\n可是不能說隨便我五千塊了事我就拿五千塊有嗎你們有這方面的不是另外一個我是針對他如果這個\n\n06:45.031 --> 07:03.662\n那被害人覺得說我一毛都拿不到跟你協調我我多少拿個幾萬塊回來可是這樣還是不夠我本席建議我們的任何一個法你要減輕他一定要不要all要end就是說還有他要供出上游\n\n07:04.781 --> 07:14.732\n才可以減輕甚至如果他不公出上游你一律羈押你們有沒有這樣的這樣的一個那個羈押是由檢察官個案認定跟法官的裁定所以\n\n07:18.001 --> 07:43.470\n那個我想我們希望啦就是你還是你的法令要真的有效打擊犯罪然後供出上游因為現在很多詐騙集團他都是底下的被抓所以你案件多到不行啊所以供出上游這個可不可以列為減刑最重要的他等於是必要條件必要條件有沒有沒有可以免除其刑\n\n07:44.264 --> 08:08.105\n不是只有減輕而已可以免除其刑所以只要供出上游就減輕整個免除其刑就沒有刑責還要自白還要符合前面的自白跟當事人如果有和解也要履行和解條件然後再供出上游或者是因此查扣所有的不法所得那個被害的所有的金額我們才會給他\n\n08:10.295 --> 08:29.471\n減輕或者是免除畸形好OK那最後一點點時間本席再問一個問題這個我不知道這個應該是不知道是內政部長還是我們法務還是都有包含銀行局那謝謝法官那您可以先回那現在我們還有一個\n\n08:31.593 --> 08:58.151\n針對詐騙受害者所有銀行帳戶還要被列警示告誡帳戶限制使用這個是加重受害者的痛苦啊我想你們應該知道現在很多的實務包括老實講我們在立法院的助理還有地方民意代表的助理甚至很多公務人員因為現在詐騙被受害就是被詐騙者受害者太多了那這個\n\n09:00.551 --> 09:29.666\n詐騙被害人他被標為警示帳戶之後他的生活還有他的薪資帳戶整個都被凍結了即便法院還他清白了可是因為過30日的訴願期限他還是沒辦法解除告戒戶的身份陷入長期困境所以我想因為時間關係我也不講太多就是這個方向那我們覺得是不是應該就是說\n\n09:32.612 --> 09:39.945\n有關這個帳戶的部分你應該要分你要分成它是高中低的風險這塊是法務部的\n\n09:44.853 --> 10:10.041\n這個帳戶的部分是哪一個單位是金管會那請金管會來我看一下不好意思金管會只有來組長還有還有銀行局拜託也來一下王副組長不好意思委員那個告誡是這邊不好意思委員有關告誡戶那個是法務部那個規定他們之前已經有找法務部規定了你們不要互推我如果是告誡的話那個他們就是說\n\n10:13.658 --> 10:37.306\n現在帳戶沒有依金流和行為模式分成高中低風險你一刀切全部都僅是帳戶現在很多人他已經夠可憐我就是受害者結果我的帳戶我所有帳戶我不是只有被不小心被騙的那個帳戶我所有這個名字這個身份證字號的所有帳戶被你凍結我都沒有帳戶可以用\n\n10:38.146 --> 10:54.658\n那在生活上造成很大的困擾包括跟他的家人什麼的這個問題很大所以這個部分我們希望是不是可以來改進不是他說要分級分級誰的權利\n\n10:57.458 --> 11:24.091\n好那我這樣子啦除了這個分級還有整合刑事和行政程序有沒有辦法建立一站式的救濟窗口這個是告誡本身是這個行政處分那不符的話本來就可以提起訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟這本來就已經或不起訴處分者是不是可以啟動他三日內出審解除程序這一個有沒有可能\n\n11:25.492 --> 11:46.300\n不起訴處分跟告誡沒有關係他或不起訴處分的那這個是不是可以為低風險帳戶然後就解除它整個你把它變成警示帳戶的程序今天提供帳戶的原因很多種有些原因是檢察官認為不構成\n\n11:48.320 --> 12:11.386\n詐欺行為所以不起訴處分可是他還是把帳戶提供給人家使用所以才會被告誡是列為警示帳戶所以這跟不起訴處分構成犯罪是不一樣的那這樣子的一個不起訴處分跟原來的告誡是不一樣是沒有絕對的關係那就告誡的部分是可以達可以尋求訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟\n\n12:12.776 --> 12:32.375\n那現在就是說你剛剛講某一種情況嘛但我們現在就是說他是受害者我是這個戶頭轉出去他就是因為他中間有一個提供他的帳戶給別人來使用是這樣才會被告誡他不是這樣的情況他的帳戶還是被凍結啊\n\n12:35.193 --> 13:02.563\n而且還有他現在就是說他就是受害者他的帳戶一直被凍結這種情況就是這種情況你們有什麼方式可以幫民眾能不能盡速幫他幫他審查然後解除程序有沒有這樣的一個機制這個真的很多人耶真的很多人耶我知道講起來我說他本來就是告誡就是行政處分本來就可以用訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟\n\n13:04.571 --> 13:21.307\n你要用訴願跟行政訴訟他跟不起訴處分沒有絕對的關係那是不一樣的東西那現在如果是低風險帳戶有沒有辦法建立一個譬如說一週內或三日內幫他解除這個帳戶的程序有沒有辦法解除帳戶的程序應該不是法務部是哪個單位\n\n13:30.714 --> 13:54.777\n這個一定要有一個答案現在沒有辦法依照現有的規定直接就把它解除沒有辦法那現在你們可不可以去想一下受害者他是受害者他這個途徑就是行政訴訟現在是只有行政訴訟我懂也有一些人有拿到法院的判決有人拿到\n\n13:55.728 --> 14:10.297\n不是啊現在我的意思他就是受害者那很多事情釐清之後能不能有快速的程序我的問題一直是這樣我知道可以嗎你們現在有辦法去研擬這樣的一個對民眾方便的可以嗎\n\n14:13.987 --> 14:20.051\n兩週後給我們委員會那個回覆好不好我們之前有開過研商會議我們有開過研商會議也提供了一些解決的方式\n\n14:32.140 --> 14:49.618\n不是不是你是之前提了延伤的方式开始实施了没如果开始实施那个方式是绝对不行的因为我们每天这个接触碰太多他们真的很可怜你特别针对我们所提的提出来好不好是好谢谢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":4.271,"text":"謝謝主席本席先請法務部次長請到法務部次長委員好次長好第一次遇到您還是我本家的許家首先今天要跟您特別談我想很多人談詐欺現在民眾最大的痛苦"},{"start":29.724,"end":53.008,"text":"本席也在院會也多次質詢被詐騙就是很痛苦了但是沒關係怎麼樣可以減輕他的痛苦就是他被詐騙的錢能夠想辦法返還回來對不對所以我們這邊有一個我們今天談一個詐欺犯罪危害條例第47條"},{"start":56.414,"end":68.861,"text":"这个诈欺犯罪他如果有自白或者是犯罪所得自动缴交可以减轻其刑"},{"start":70.034,"end":96.247,"text":"那我們在這邊我們是不是同步也請司法院今天有沒有人來有我們請吳法官就是我們看到這個最高法院113年度台上大字第4096號的裁定他說只要詐欺犯自白並且繳回犯罪所得那人可獲得減刑"},{"start":98.308,"end":123.785,"text":"那這樣的見解就變成如果我們受害人他被騙一千萬結果那個車手他可能一千萬車手只拿到假設十萬那他繳回十萬那他就可以減輕刑責的話那會不會我們擔心最後就變成"},{"start":125.22,"end":153.435,"text":"這一些詐騙集團他就車手一直換一直換因為他還可以宣傳說沒關係沒關係這個這個可以減輕刑責那這樣我們的利益這我們這個剛剛念的第47條他希望被害人獲得賠償而且呢有效溯源就是我們其實還要找到上游的這有點背道而馳"},{"start":154.898,"end":181.365,"text":"所以這個部分的法令好像定的變成我們不僅沒有幫助到我們的被害人被害人損失五百萬一千萬還個十萬甚至五萬他說我才拿兩千塊當然證據查到也許真的通常第一線的車手拿的少那所以這樣變成我們的法令並沒有讓整個"},{"start":184.4,"end":209.378,"text":"這個詐欺這個詐騙減少本席手上也看到一個很可怕的數字今年五月就上個月光是一個月詐騙就一萬六千零三件整個總財務的損失是87億這很可怕我們之前可能一整年也才不知道這個幾百億或幾十億現在呢可能一年都是幾千億"},{"start":210.643,"end":223.873,"text":"所以這個部分你們的看法怎麼樣報告委員我想最高法院的這個裁定他對於犯罪所得他採用的是被告的一個報酬說"},{"start":224.793,"end":247.509,"text":"那他整理是比較狹隘的他解釋上他是犯罪所得那你覺得要不要修法你覺得要不要修我們尾以尊重可是這個會有一個風險就是被告以後只要自白而且片面控訴片面喔對片面控訴就是說我只有我沒有所得甚至於我的所得只有一千塊他只要把這一千塊繳回來他就可以減刑我想這樣的"},{"start":249.387,"end":258.218,"text":"這個跟我們原來立法的意思就完全是不符合所以我們現在就考慮我們用修法的方式我們把條文犯罪所得這四個字"},{"start":259.574,"end":277.779,"text":"沒有沒有我們的草案在行政院什麼時候要送出來一個月87億一萬多件但是對於委員今天的提案我們也都提供建議我們是希望採用另外一個方式我剛剛問的是你們已經有了你們有草案了因為我跟你講你們很專業"},{"start":279.019,"end":305.744,"text":"你們可能比我們立委什麼都專業你們在立行政院什麼時候要送過來我們可以用建議我們的設計是這樣他如果詐騙集團騙了一百萬他用了十個車手十個車手一個人都騙十萬領十萬他們報酬可能只有一千塊或是五千塊我們今天如果要求車手每個人都要賠一百萬"},{"start":306.764,"end":324.291,"text":"那這樣子對某些車手他乾脆就不自白了太多了那如果我們把他設定說由你自己去跟被害人和解跟調解如果被害人也認為說對沒錯你給我拿十萬你願意賠償這十萬的部分法官得減輕刑刑"},{"start":325.211,"end":338.725,"text":"所以你們是贊成這個立場今天有委員提我也有簽署我們是希望盡量多一點讓被害人接受說就他的部分我願意跟他和解只要他履行支付了但是你剛剛舉例是100萬是10個車手對同一個人騙100萬嗎對"},{"start":345.291,"end":373.098,"text":"那可是如果今天騙的這個第一線的他可能騙走他五百萬但是中間有中油還有上油但他真的只拿一百萬呢我們現在針對的是這一個行為人他可能是車手可能是車手頭我們就看他所造成的危害有多少那本席是想建議就是說是不是可以返還金額還要有一定的比例"},{"start":373.718,"end":390.833,"text":"你比例太少比如說他被騙一千萬結果他只返還他好啦一百萬或剩五十萬這個對被害人來說還是差太遠嘛所以是不是可以你今天如果返還金額不到一定的比例你供出上游我可以給你減輕"},{"start":392.045,"end":396.467,"text":"可是不能說隨便我五千塊了事我就拿五千塊有嗎你們有這方面的不是另外一個我是針對他如果這個"},{"start":405.031,"end":423.662,"text":"那被害人覺得說我一毛都拿不到跟你協調我我多少拿個幾萬塊回來可是這樣還是不夠我本席建議我們的任何一個法你要減輕他一定要不要all要end就是說還有他要供出上游"},{"start":424.781,"end":434.732,"text":"才可以減輕甚至如果他不公出上游你一律羈押你們有沒有這樣的這樣的一個那個羈押是由檢察官個案認定跟法官的裁定所以"},{"start":438.001,"end":463.47,"text":"那個我想我們希望啦就是你還是你的法令要真的有效打擊犯罪然後供出上游因為現在很多詐騙集團他都是底下的被抓所以你案件多到不行啊所以供出上游這個可不可以列為減刑最重要的他等於是必要條件必要條件有沒有沒有可以免除其刑"},{"start":464.264,"end":488.105,"text":"不是只有減輕而已可以免除其刑所以只要供出上游就減輕整個免除其刑就沒有刑責還要自白還要符合前面的自白跟當事人如果有和解也要履行和解條件然後再供出上游或者是因此查扣所有的不法所得那個被害的所有的金額我們才會給他"},{"start":490.295,"end":509.471,"text":"減輕或者是免除畸形好OK那最後一點點時間本席再問一個問題這個我不知道這個應該是不知道是內政部長還是我們法務還是都有包含銀行局那謝謝法官那您可以先回那現在我們還有一個"},{"start":511.593,"end":538.151,"text":"針對詐騙受害者所有銀行帳戶還要被列警示告誡帳戶限制使用這個是加重受害者的痛苦啊我想你們應該知道現在很多的實務包括老實講我們在立法院的助理還有地方民意代表的助理甚至很多公務人員因為現在詐騙被受害就是被詐騙者受害者太多了那這個"},{"start":540.551,"end":569.666,"text":"詐騙被害人他被標為警示帳戶之後他的生活還有他的薪資帳戶整個都被凍結了即便法院還他清白了可是因為過30日的訴願期限他還是沒辦法解除告戒戶的身份陷入長期困境所以我想因為時間關係我也不講太多就是這個方向那我們覺得是不是應該就是說"},{"start":572.612,"end":579.945,"text":"有關這個帳戶的部分你應該要分你要分成它是高中低的風險這塊是法務部的"},{"start":584.853,"end":610.041,"text":"這個帳戶的部分是哪一個單位是金管會那請金管會來我看一下不好意思金管會只有來組長還有還有銀行局拜託也來一下王副組長不好意思委員那個告誡是這邊不好意思委員有關告誡戶那個是法務部那個規定他們之前已經有找法務部規定了你們不要互推我如果是告誡的話那個他們就是說"},{"start":613.658,"end":637.306,"text":"現在帳戶沒有依金流和行為模式分成高中低風險你一刀切全部都僅是帳戶現在很多人他已經夠可憐我就是受害者結果我的帳戶我所有帳戶我不是只有被不小心被騙的那個帳戶我所有這個名字這個身份證字號的所有帳戶被你凍結我都沒有帳戶可以用"},{"start":638.146,"end":654.658,"text":"那在生活上造成很大的困擾包括跟他的家人什麼的這個問題很大所以這個部分我們希望是不是可以來改進不是 他說要分級分級誰的權利"},{"start":657.458,"end":684.091,"text":"好那我這樣子啦 除了這個分級還有整合刑事和行政程序有沒有辦法建立一站式的救濟窗口這個是告誡本身是這個行政處分那不符的話本來就可以提起訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟這本來就已經或不起訴處分者是不是可以啟動他三日內出審解除程序這一個有沒有可能"},{"start":685.492,"end":706.3,"text":"不起訴處分跟告誡沒有關係他或不起訴處分的那這個是不是可以為低風險帳戶然後就解除它整個你把它變成警示帳戶的程序今天提供帳戶的原因很多種有些原因是檢察官認為不構成"},{"start":708.32,"end":731.386,"text":"詐欺行為所以不起訴處分可是他還是把帳戶提供給人家使用所以才會被告誡是列為警示帳戶所以這跟不起訴處分構成犯罪是不一樣的那這樣子的一個不起訴處分跟原來的告誡是不一樣是沒有絕對的關係那就告誡的部分是可以達可以尋求訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟"},{"start":732.776,"end":752.375,"text":"那現在就是說你剛剛講某一種情況嘛但我們現在就是說他是受害者我是這個戶頭轉出去他就是因為他中間有一個提供他的帳戶給別人來使用是這樣才會被告誡他不是這樣的情況他的帳戶還是被凍結啊"},{"start":755.193,"end":782.563,"text":"而且還有他現在就是說他就是受害者他的帳戶一直被凍結這種情況就是這種情況你們有什麼方式可以幫民眾能不能盡速幫他幫他審查然後解除程序有沒有這樣的一個機制這個真的很多人耶真的很多人耶我知道講起來我說他本來就是告誡就是行政處分本來就可以用訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟"},{"start":784.571,"end":801.307,"text":"你要用訴願跟行政訴訟他跟不起訴處分沒有絕對的關係那是不一樣的東西那現在如果是低風險帳戶有沒有辦法建立一個譬如說一週內或三日內幫他解除這個帳戶的程序有沒有辦法解除帳戶的程序應該不是法務部是哪個單位"},{"start":810.714,"end":834.777,"text":"這個一定要有一個答案現在沒有辦法依照現有的規定直接就把它解除沒有辦法那現在你們可不可以去想一下受害者他是受害者他這個途徑就是行政訴訟現在是只有行政訴訟我懂也有一些人有拿到法院的判決有人拿到"},{"start":835.728,"end":850.297,"text":"不是啊現在我的意思他就是受害者那很多事情釐清之後能不能有快速的程序我的問題一直是這樣我知道可以嗎你們現在有辦法去研擬這樣的一個對民眾方便的可以嗎"},{"start":853.987,"end":860.051,"text":"兩週後給我們委員會那個回覆好不好我們之前有開過研商會議我們有開過研商會議也提供了一些解決的方式"},{"start":872.14,"end":889.618,"text":"不是不是你是之前提了延伤的方式开始实施了没如果开始实施那个方式是绝对不行的因为我们每天这个接触碰太多他们真的很可怜你特别针对我们所提的提出来好不好是好谢谢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":626,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時13分）謝謝主席。本席先請法務部次長。"],["主席：請法務部次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長好。第一次遇到您，還是我本家的，徐家。首先今天要跟您特別談到，很多人說詐欺是現在民眾最大的痛苦，本席也在院會多次質詢，被詐騙就是很痛苦了，但是沒關係，怎麼樣可以減輕他的痛苦？就是他被詐騙的錢能夠想辦法返還回來，對不對？","所以我們今天談詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條，關於詐欺犯罪，他如果有自白，或者是自動繳交犯罪所得，可以減輕其刑，我們在這邊是不是同步也請司法院，今天有沒有人來？有，請吳法官。"],["主席：請吳法官。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們看到最高法院113年度台上大字第4096號裁定說只要詐欺犯自白，並且繳回犯罪所得，仍可獲得減刑，這樣的見解就變成如果受害人被騙1,000萬，假設車手只拿到10萬，那他繳回10萬就可以減輕刑責的話，我們擔心最後就變成這一些詐騙集團一直換一直換車手，因為他還可以宣傳說：沒關係，沒關係，可以減輕刑責，這樣我們的利益，我們剛剛唸的第四十七條希望被害人獲得賠償，而且還要有效溯源，就是我們還要找到上游，這樣有點背道而馳，所以這一部分的法令訂的好像我們不僅沒有幫助到被害人，被害人損失500萬、1,000萬，還個10萬，甚至5萬，他可能說他才拿2,000塊，當然證據查到也許是真的，通常第一線的車手拿得少，所以這樣變成我們的法令並沒有讓整個詐欺、詐騙減少，本席手上也看到一個很可怕的數字，今年5月，就上個月，光是一個月詐騙就1萬6,003件，整個總財務的損失是87億，這很可怕！我們之前可能一整年也才不知道幾百億或幾十億，現在可能一年都是幾千億，所以這一個部分，你們的看法怎麼樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我想最高法院的這一個裁定，它對於犯罪所得所採用的是被告的報酬說，等於是比較狹隘的，它解釋上是犯罪所得是報酬……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你覺得要不要修法？你覺得要不要修？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們予以尊重，可是這個會有一個風險，就是被告以後只要自白，而且片面供述，「片面」喔！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，片面供述。"],["徐次長錫祥：就是他沒有所得，甚至於他的所得只有1,000塊，他只要把這1,000塊繳回來，他就可以減刑，我想這樣子跟我們原來立法的意旨是完全不合。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，那所以呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：所以我們現在就考慮用修法的方式，我們把條文「犯罪所得」這四個字……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們提了嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有，我們的草案在行政院。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還在行政院？什麼時候要送出來？一個月87億，有一萬多件。"],["徐次長錫祥：但是對於委員今天的提案，我們也都提供建議，我們是希望採用另外一個方式……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我剛剛問的是你們已經有了，你們有草案了，我跟你講，因為你們很專業，我必須講，你們可能比我們立委什麼都專業……"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有，我跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：草案還在行政院，你們什麼時候要送過來？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們可以用建議，我們的設計是這樣，詐騙集團如果騙了100萬，他用了10個車手，10個車手一個人都領10萬，他的報酬可能只有1,000塊……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，或是5,000塊。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們今天如果要求車手每個人都要賠100萬，這樣子某些車手他乾脆就不自白了，太多了，如果我們把它設定說由他自己去跟被害人和解跟調解，如果被害人也認為說對，沒錯，他拿了我10萬，他願意賠償這10萬的部分，法官得減輕其刑。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們是贊成這個立場？有啊！今天有委員提，我也有簽。"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我們是希望儘量多一點，讓被害人接受，就他的部分他願意跟他和解，只要他履行支付了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是你剛剛舉例是，100萬是10個車手對同一個人騙100萬嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果今天騙的第一線，他可能騙走他500萬，但是中間有中游還有上游，但他真的只拿100萬呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們現在針對的是這一個行為人，他可能是車手、可能是車手頭，我們就看他所造成的危害有多少。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席是想建議，返還金額是不是還是要有一定的比例？你比例太少，比如說他被騙1,000萬，好啦！結果他只返還他100萬或是50萬，這個對被害人來說還是差太遠嘛！所以今天是不是可以返還金額不到一定的比例，但你供出上游，我可以給你減輕其刑？可是不能隨便5,000塊就了事。"],["徐次長錫祥：這是另外一個減輕的條件。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有嗎？你們有這方面的規定？"],["徐次長錫祥：有，供出上游。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是另外一個，而是針對那種如果被害人覺得若我一毛都拿不到，所以在跟你協調後，我多少拿個幾萬塊回來，但這樣還是不夠，本席建議，我們任何一個法如果要予以減輕，不要規定「or」，而是要「and」，就是「還有」他要供出上游，這樣才可以減輕，甚至如果他不供出上游，你一律予以羈押，你們有沒有這樣的規定？"],["徐次長錫祥：那個羈押是由檢察官個案認定跟法官的裁定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們希望，你的法令要能真的有效打擊犯罪，然後供出上游，因為很多詐騙集團都是底下的被抓，所以你要處理的案件多到不行啊！所以「供出上游」可不可以列為減刑最重要的，等於是必要條件？"],["徐次長錫祥：在我們的設計裡面，供出上游可以免除其刑，不是只有減輕而已，而是可以免除其刑。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以只要供出上游就免除其刑、就沒有刑責？"],["徐次長錫祥：還要符合前面的自白；跟當事人如果有和解，也要履行和解條件，然後再供出上游，或者是因此查扣所有的不法所得、支付被害人的所有金額，我們才會給他減輕或者是免除其刑。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。謝謝法官，您可以先回。","最後一點點時間，本席再問一個問題，不知道這與內政部或法務部有關，還是都有關，包含銀行局的部分？現在我們還有一個針對詐騙受害者所有銀行帳戶還要被列警示，告誡帳戶限制使用的部分，這是加重受害者的痛苦啊！我想你們應該知道，現在很多的實務，老實講，包括我們在立法院的助理，還有地方民意代表的助理，甚至很多公務人員，因為現在被詐騙者、受害者太多了，詐騙被害人被標為警示帳戶之後，他的生活還有他的薪資帳戶，整個都被凍結了，即便法院還他清白了，可是因為過了30日的訴願期限，他還是沒辦法解除告誡戶的身分，甚至陷入長期困境，因為時間關係，我也不講太多，就是應朝這個方向，即有關帳戶的部分，應該要區分為所謂高、中、低的風險，這塊是法務部負責的嗎？帳戶的部分，是哪一個單位負責？"],["徐次長錫祥：金管會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請金管會。"],["主席：請金管會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不好意思，金管會只有組長列席；還有銀行局，拜託也來一下，請王副組長。"],["主席：請銀行局。"],["王副組長麗惠：委員，不好意思，有關告誡戶是法務部有規定，他們之前已經有找相關……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是法務部規定的，你們不要互推喔！"],["徐次長錫祥：如果是告誡的話，也就是說，警察……"],["徐委員欣瑩：也就是說，現在帳戶沒有依金流和行為模式分成高、中、低風險，你是一刀切，全部都是警示帳戶，現在很多人已經夠可憐了，就已經是受害者，結果他所有的帳戶，不是只有不小心被騙的那個帳戶，而是這個名字、身分證字號下所有的帳戶都被凍結，變成都沒有帳戶可以用，這在生活上造成很大的困擾，包括跟他的家人什麼的，所以這個問題很大，針對這個部分，是不是可以有所改進？"],["徐次長錫祥：分級是誰的權利……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣子好了，除了這部分的分級，還有整合刑事和行政程序，有沒有辦法建立一站式的救濟窗口？"],["徐次長錫祥：告誡本身是行政處分，不服的話，本來就可以提起訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟，這本來就有一定的程序。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那已經獲不起訴處分者，是不是可以啟動3日內審查解除程序，這一個部分有沒有可能？"],["徐次長錫祥：不起訴處分跟告誡沒有關係，不是說檢察官不起訴……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，獲不起訴處分的，是不是可以列為低風險帳戶？然後就解除你把他變成警示帳戶的整個程序？"],["徐次長錫祥：今天提供帳戶的原因有很多種，有些原因檢察官認為不構成詐欺行為，所以不起訴處分，可是他還是把帳戶提供給人家使用，所以才會被告誡，列為警示帳戶，所以這跟不起訴處分構成犯罪是不一樣的；這樣的不起訴處分跟原來的告誡是不一樣的，是沒有絕對的關係，就告誡的部分是可以尋求訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你剛剛講的是某一種情況，但我們現在就是說他是受害者，是從他這個戶頭轉出去……"],["徐次長錫祥：他就是因為在這中間有提供他的帳戶給別人來使用，是這樣才會被告誡。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但他不是這樣的情況，結果他的帳戶還是被凍結啊！而且他就是受害者，他的帳戶一直被凍結，針對這種情況你們有什麼方式可以幫民眾的？能不能幫他儘速審查然後解除程序？有沒有這樣一個機制？有這個情況的人真的很多耶！"],["徐次長錫祥：我是說，告誡是行政處分，本來就可以用訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟。"],["徐委員欣瑩：要用訴願跟行政訴訟？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，因為它跟不起訴處分沒有絕對的關係，那是不一樣的東西。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，現在如果是低風險帳戶，有沒有辦法建立一個，譬如說在1週內或3日內幫他解除這個警示帳戶的程序，有沒有辦法？"],["徐次長錫祥：解除警示帳戶的程序，應該不是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是法務部，那是哪一個單位？這部分一定要有一個答案！"],["徐次長錫祥：現在沒有辦法依照現有的規定直接就把它解除，沒有辦法！因為這是根據規定辦理的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那現在你們可不可以去想一下，他是受害者……"],["徐次長錫祥：這個途徑就是行政訴訟……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在只有行政訴訟，這個我懂……"],["徐次長錫祥：也有一些人有拿到法院的判決，有人拿到！"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啦！我現在的意思是，他就是受害者，在很多事情釐清之後，能不能有快速的程序來解除？我的問題一直都是這樣。"],["徐次長錫祥：我知道，但是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以嗎？你們現在有辦法研擬這樣一個對民眾比較方便的措施，可以嗎？兩週後給我們委員會一個回復，我就不占用時間了，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們之前有開過研商會議……"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席，你裁示一下，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們有開過研商會議，也提供了一些解決的方式。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：可以給的資料就提供給徐委員，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我們會後會提供。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是！不是！你們之前有研商了一些方式，那開始實施了沒？如果開始實施了，那個方式是絕對不行的，因為我們每天都碰到、接觸到太多這樣的情況，他們很多人真的很可憐，所以請你特別針對我們所提的提出一些解決的方式，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。謝謝。"],["主席：何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","我們請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-27","speakers":["張宏陸","王定宇","王義川","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","吳琪銘","高金素梅","丁學忠","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員\n張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林宜瑾\n等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員王義川等16人\n擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員陳素月等 18 人擬具\n「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1146401_00001"}}}