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{\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"避\", \"start\": 293.212, \"end\": 293.332, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 293.332, \"end\": 293.732, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 293.732, \"end\": 294.012, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 294.012, \"end\": 294.172, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 294.172, \"end\": 294.192, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"現\"}]}, {\"start\": 295.555, \"end\": 312.943, \"text\": \"那個檢測方法的訂定一定會根據你的偵測極限用什麼方法那極限到哪裡那你訂出那一個檢測出來數據的標準所以不可能說訂一個標準就你的偵測極限已經沒辦法偵測到那個都沒有意義了所以這個部分我們\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 295.555, \"end\": 296.375, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 296.375, \"end\": 296.675, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 296.675, \"end\": 298.036, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 298.036, \"end\": 298.176, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, 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\"start\": 697.051, \"end\": 697.511, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 697.511, \"end\": 697.651, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 697.651, \"end\": 697.671, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"瀅\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 697.671, \"end\": 697.751, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 697.751, \"end\": 697.771, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,743 --> 00:00:26,533\n好啦那個我今天質詢不會太長然後也謝謝昭緯其實對不是本委員會的委員也相當的優待了這個也請前面委員要理解然後那個請那個等一下\n\n2\n00:00:28,170 --> 00:00:31,174\n這沒關係啊那個我們請那個次長來陳次這個不要問了對委員好\n\n3\n00:00:37,691 --> 00:01:01,360\n好次長好今天我們討論這個因應歐盟管制PM1的這個議題那首先我想要釐清問題的本質在你們新發布的白皮書第63頁有指出在推動AI與感測科技建構全方位監控體系那加強這個PM1就是細懸浮為例的這個污染掌握\n\n4\n00:01:02,745 --> 00:01:30,584\n那對於這個彭部長跟這個環境部的這個專業跟承擔我想在這裡本席是非常的期待但是呢部長也有講到就是說問題的本質是在於很難精準量測那需要引進國際新的這個監測技術跟儀器還有這個監測人力的培養所以我們在環境部是不是已經有能力來監測PM1了呢\n\n5\n00:01:34,209 --> 00:02:00,401\nPM1可以啦PM1可以監測那這個但目前我們法規有沒有PM1的這個標準目前PM1的部分還沒有法規我想這個也是跟美國歐洲歐美大概都是一樣的接軌啦這種管制標準好那PM1可以追蹤掌握它的污染源嗎\n\n6\n00:02:04,952 --> 00:02:28,402\n向委員報告那個像PM1的部分他可能他的來源也是相當複雜我們也還需要再更多資料來做分析那不外乎PM1的部分跟交通員也是有密切相關所以你的答案是現在可以追蹤掌握嗎我們目前可以來做進一步的調查你要對著麥克風聽到嗎\n\n7\n00:02:30,555 --> 00:02:47,478\n我們可以做進一步的調查跟蒐集資料那PM1的部分最主要還是來自於光化學反應還有是交通源的排放等等這個是我們現階段所理解的如果要建構到像PM2.5這樣的一個來源我們可能還需要更多的資料跟時間\n\n8\n00:02:48,683 --> 00:03:03,330\n所以好那所以看起來還有很多進步的空間那如果說未來事業單位排放超標的話目前看起來應該是還不能開罰吧因為管制標準還沒有定沒錯\n\n9\n00:03:04,110 --> 00:03:28,733\n好那在這個空氣品質的監測跟這個個別污染源的監測可能是不同層次的技術那空氣品質監測是在一定時間空間的一個平均值的一個概念但是如果是事業單位或特定的污染源的話就會涉及到這個短時間高濃度的排放值那你們現在有能力去克服這個部分的技術嗎\n\n10\n00:03:33,158 --> 00:04:02,741\n向委員報告相關的空氣品檢測或固定原源的檢測基本上都可以執行不過剛才提到那個比較小的微粒像PM1或者是PM0.1如果在煙道裡面就是所謂的個別污染源檢測來講這需要再克服因為它的濾鏡太小它的運動不像我們一般測的那種濾狀物大顆的濾狀污染物可能現階段可能都還要再進一步的研究才可以\n\n11\n00:04:03,001 --> 00:04:22,422\n好那這樣看起來就是說當然低濃度的PM1和這個空氣品質可能就是比較難監測的那常常會測不到或測不準然後卻被認為就是零這是有可能的那超過這個設備的偵測極限就會被定義為這個non-detective\n\n12\n00:04:26,005 --> 00:04:54,192\n所以在未來你們訂定標準如果太低已經也很難監測得到那非常有可能就是通通會出現一個ND值然後大家都以為說偵測到的就是零那白話文的說法其實也就是驗不到如果這樣的標準或者數據發布這樣看起來可能也沒有什麼意義基於這些問題就是說環境部要如何來避免這樣的結果出現\n\n13\n00:04:55,555 --> 00:05:12,943\n那個檢測方法的訂定一定會根據你的偵測極限用什麼方法那極限到哪裡那你訂出那一個檢測出來數據的標準所以不可能說訂一個標準就你的偵測極限已經沒辦法偵測到那個都沒有意義了所以這個部分我們\n\n14\n00:05:13,803 --> 00:05:29,884\n我想國際管制也都是一樣他一定會訂出一個技術上可以測出來的部分那剛有講說過去對PM0.1因為太細了所以不會用質量濃度會改為用顆粒的方式那就會去算每立方公分裡面大概有多少顆\n\n15\n00:05:30,945 --> 00:05:52,824\n那目前我們也是用這種方式在測比如說我們在那個台大完工所那一個測站在白天的時候測出來濃度就會比晚上就是說上下班尖峰時刻測出來濃度就會比不是尖峰時刻但很明顯有差異所以我們就證實了說的確這個PM0.1的濃度會是移動污染源交通所造成的影響是有的\n\n16\n00:05:53,800 --> 00:06:18,799\n好謝謝次郎的說明那如果說是人為排放的這個高濃度的PM1的話那也就是說比較容易偵測的到那但是這樣採樣其實可能還是比較困難的而且還會受到其他溫度濕度還有風力風向的影響嘛那誤差範圍會很大那在你們實務上要怎麼去克服解決這樣的問題\n\n17\n00:06:21,505 --> 00:06:49,081\n像歐盟他們要求兩年之內會員國都要開始測監測站去測監測站那個儀器的監測經過校正之後然後每天都執行了這個監測出來的結果每立方公分有多少顆數那個結果都可以當作是我們監測的結果那至於固定汙染源或者是其他的排放點所排放出來的那另外還要有監測的方法然後訂出管制標準那個都是後續會去做的事情\n\n18\n00:06:49,858 --> 00:07:08,371\n所以我們還是要循序漸進我們先去了解現在大氣中的一個監測的結果然後去找出可能的來源然後開始就會定管制標準那你們目前掌握的歐盟的管制措施大概有哪些\n\n19\n00:07:10,114 --> 00:07:24,150\n我們也是根據一些研究報告所呈現的大家知道說這個對人體健康是會有影響的啦齁那譬如說我們過去可能比較重視的是排氣直接排出來了那現在不是排氣這\n\n20\n00:07:25,752 --> 00:07:41,137\n包括煞車的時候那一個煞車皮或者是輪胎在路上磨的那個都會揚起那個粉塵的部分那個都是來源所以那個部分我們也都會把它納入我們的空瓶排皮書裡面在未來的十年裡面這個都是我們的重點\n\n21\n00:07:41,957 --> 00:08:02,914\n所以我們未來也台灣也會有能力去比較辦理是那現在現在的新車現在就沒辦法沒有就是跟歐盟一樣啊他們現在也沒有說有管制標準可以提供給各國來參考那我們最後我先請教就是說以pm2.5來講我們有沒有辦法收集處理\n\n22\n00:08:05,751 --> 00:08:18,430\n我們PM2.5已經從105年到現在降從20降到現在的12.8去年所以這個各縣市都在往下降你說下降但我講的是收集處理\n\n23\n00:08:21,748 --> 00:08:44,424\n測當然就是測出他最後排放出來他為什麼排放出來會下降當然就是因為被我們空氣污染防治設備所收集了那實務上我們回到這個PM1的這個污染控制那實務上這個PM1有沒有辦法收集處理業界有沒有能力去做這個污染防治\n\n24\n00:08:48,976 --> 00:09:13,496\n像委員報告就是有關如果PM1它是原生性就直接排放的話目前還是有機會用過濾的方式或者用靜電集成的方式來做處理所以我們會不會就是說未來標準定下去然後會不會就影響到產業的競爭力我不知道你們的次長這個就誠如剛才次長說明的所以我們需要更多的資料來做研議\n\n25\n00:09:15,206 --> 00:09:27,943\n所以我想這個聽起來目前大家資訊其實都不是很足夠的前提之下所以我覺得可能在未來我們如果要開始訂定這個標準的時候可能也\n\n26\n00:09:31,528 --> 00:09:50,107\n要很谨慎啦因为这个定下去有没有能力去做这个我说业界有没有去有没有能力去做这个污染防治然后会不会整个这个产业的这个竞争力被影响到我想在我们定力的时候都要非常非常的谨慎小心\n\n27\n00:09:50,427 --> 00:10:10,914\n是我們任何管制標準都是會有一定的程序學者專家研議然後跟國際的法規接軌然後業界這邊改進的技術是不是到位這個都會把它考量進來還有鄰近國家的情況我想本席認為就是說雖然歐盟已經開始要管制那環境部\n\n28\n00:10:12,234 --> 00:10:34,983\n開始監測那個環境部呢也已經都重視到這個議題的嚴重性但是我們還是要考慮就是說這個產業界的是不是有能力來因應所以剛剛也特別強調說在這個偵測技術人才都還可能有待加強的這個背景之下我們這個貿然定下一個\n\n29\n00:10:35,943 --> 00:11:02,660\n測不到或測不準的一個環境品質標準或者是事業單位的這個排放標準都我們真的要非常謹慎絕對不能說我們要貪圖這個速度去定一個做不到甚至是全世界最嚴格的標準我想這樣子對民眾或者是事業單位不僅是沒有好處可能是必大於利而且我們也還不知道就是說到底環境部最後會定什麼樣的標準\n\n30\n00:11:03,641 --> 00:11:24,358\n是兩種都訂呢還是先訂某一種我想這個影響都是很大的那希望就是說環境部能夠慎重考慮本席所提出的建議那最後就是說我有在網路查詢到一些相關的資料就看到\n\n31\n00:11:25,259 --> 00:11:37,771\n有網友的留言分享給大家啦就是說環境部的總統政策跟評論燈紅酒綠不代我啦地球暖化全怪我我想這個一併給大家參考謝謝好謝謝陳瀅委員謝謝次長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9743\t26533\t好啦那個我今天質詢不會太長然後也謝謝昭緯其實對不是本委員會的委員也相當的優待了這個也請前面委員要理解然後那個請那個等一下\n28170\t31174\t這沒關係啊 那個我們請那個次長來 陳次這個不要問了對委員好\n37691\t61360\t好 次長好 今天我們討論這個因應歐盟管制PM1的這個議題那首先我想要釐清問題的本質在你們新發布的白皮書第63頁有指出在推動AI與感測科技建構全方位監控體系那加強這個PM1就是細懸浮為例的這個污染掌握\n62745\t90584\t那對於這個彭部長跟這個環境部的這個專業跟承擔我想在這裡本席是非常的期待但是呢部長也有講到就是說問題的本質是在於很難精準量測那需要引進國際新的這個監測技術跟儀器還有這個監測人力的培養所以我們在環境部是不是已經有能力來監測PM1了呢\n94209\t120401\tPM1可以啦 PM1可以監測那這個但目前我們法規有沒有PM1的這個標準目前PM1的部分還沒有法規我想這個也是跟美國歐洲歐美大概都是一樣的接軌啦這種管制標準好那PM1可以追蹤掌握它的污染源嗎\n124952\t148402\t向委員報告那個像PM1的部分他可能他的來源也是相當複雜我們也還需要再更多資料來做分析那不外乎PM1的部分跟交通員也是有密切相關所以你的答案是現在可以追蹤掌握嗎我們目前可以來做進一步的調查你要對著麥克風聽到嗎\n150555\t167478\t我們可以做進一步的調查跟蒐集資料那PM1的部分最主要還是來自於光化學反應還有是交通源的排放等等這個是我們現階段所理解的如果要建構到像PM2.5這樣的一個來源我們可能還需要更多的資料跟時間\n168683\t183330\t所以好那所以看起來還有很多進步的空間那如果說未來事業單位排放超標的話目前看起來應該是還不能開罰吧因為管制標準還沒有定沒錯\n184110\t208733\t好 那在這個空氣品質的監測跟這個個別污染源的監測可能是不同層次的技術那空氣品質監測是在一定時間空間的一個平均值的一個概念但是如果是事業單位或特定的污染源的話就會涉及到這個短時間高濃度的排放值那你們現在有能力去克服這個部分的技術嗎\n213158\t242741\t向委員報告相關的空氣品檢測或固定原源的檢測基本上都可以執行不過剛才提到那個比較小的微粒像PM1或者是PM0.1如果在煙道裡面就是所謂的個別污染源檢測來講這需要再克服因為它的濾鏡太小它的運動不像我們一般測的那種濾狀物大顆的濾狀污染物可能現階段可能都還要再進一步的研究才可以\n243001\t262422\t好那這樣看起來就是說當然低濃度的PM1和這個空氣品質可能就是比較難監測的那常常會測不到或測不準然後卻被認為就是零這是有可能的那超過這個設備的偵測極限就會被定義為這個non-detective\n266005\t294192\t所以在未來你們訂定標準如果太低已經也很難監測得到那非常有可能就是通通會出現一個ND值然後大家都以為說偵測到的就是零那白話文的說法其實也就是驗不到如果這樣的標準或者數據發布這樣看起來可能也沒有什麼意義基於這些問題就是說環境部要如何來避免這樣的結果出現\n295555\t312943\t那個檢測方法的訂定一定會根據你的偵測極限用什麼方法那極限到哪裡那你訂出那一個檢測出來數據的標準所以不可能說訂一個標準就你的偵測極限已經沒辦法偵測到那個都沒有意義了所以這個部分我們\n313803\t329884\t我想國際管制也都是一樣他一定會訂出一個技術上可以測出來的部分那剛有講說過去對PM0.1因為太細了所以不會用質量濃度會改為用顆粒的方式那就會去算每立方公分裡面大概有多少顆\n330945\t352824\t那目前我們也是用這種方式在測比如說我們在那個台大完工所那一個測站在白天的時候測出來濃度就會比晚上就是說上下班尖峰時刻測出來濃度就會比不是尖峰時刻但很明顯有差異所以我們就證實了說的確這個PM0.1的濃度會是移動污染源交通所造成的影響是有的\n353800\t378799\t好謝謝次郎的說明那如果說是人為排放的這個高濃度的PM1的話那也就是說比較容易偵測的到那但是這樣採樣其實可能還是比較困難的而且還會受到其他溫度濕度還有風力風向的影響嘛那誤差範圍會很大那在你們實務上要怎麼去克服解決這樣的問題\n381505\t409081\t像歐盟他們要求兩年之內會員國都要開始測監測站去測監測站那個儀器的監測經過校正之後然後每天都執行了這個監測出來的結果每立方公分有多少顆數那個結果都可以當作是我們監測的結果那至於固定汙染源或者是其他的排放點所排放出來的那另外還要有監測的方法然後訂出管制標準那個都是後續會去做的事情\n409858\t428371\t所以我們還是要循序漸進我們先去了解現在大氣中的一個監測的結果然後去找出可能的來源然後開始就會定管制標準那你們目前掌握的歐盟的管制措施大概有哪些\n430114\t444150\t我們也是根據一些研究報告所呈現的大家知道說這個對人體健康是會有影響的啦齁那譬如說我們過去可能比較重視的是排氣直接排出來了那現在不是排氣這\n445752\t461137\t包括煞車的時候那一個煞車皮或者是輪胎在路上磨的那個都會揚起那個粉塵的部分那個都是來源所以那個部分我們也都會把它納入我們的空瓶排皮書裡面在未來的十年裡面這個都是我們的重點\n461957\t482914\t所以我們未來也台灣也會有能力去比較辦理是那現在現在的新車現在就沒辦法沒有就是跟歐盟一樣啊他們現在也沒有說有管制標準可以提供給各國來參考那我們最後我先請教就是說以pm2.5來講我們有沒有辦法收集處理\n485751\t498430\t我們PM2.5已經從105年到現在降從20降到現在的12.8去年所以這個各縣市都在往下降你說下降但我講的是收集處理\n501748\t524424\t測當然就是測出他最後排放出來他為什麼排放出來會下降當然就是因為被我們空氣污染防治設備所收集了那實務上我們回到這個PM1的這個污染控制那實務上這個PM1有沒有辦法收集處理業界有沒有能力去做這個污染防治\n528976\t553496\t像委員報告就是有關如果PM1它是原生性就直接排放的話目前還是有機會用過濾的方式或者用靜電集成的方式來做處理所以我們會不會就是說未來標準定下去然後會不會就影響到產業的競爭力我不知道你們的次長這個就誠如剛才次長說明的所以我們需要更多的資料來做研議\n555206\t567943\t所以我想這個聽起來目前大家資訊其實都不是很足夠的前提之下所以我覺得可能在未來我們如果要開始訂定這個標準的時候可能也\n571528\t590107\t要很谨慎啦因为这个定下去有没有能力去做这个我说业界有没有去有没有能力去做这个污染防治然后会不会整个这个产业的这个竞争力被影响到我想在我们定力的时候都要非常非常的谨慎小心\n590427\t610914\t是我們任何管制標準都是會有一定的程序學者專家研議然後跟國際的法規接軌然後業界這邊改進的技術是不是到位這個都會把它考量進來還有鄰近國家的情況我想本席認為就是說雖然歐盟已經開始要管制那環境部\n612234\t634983\t開始監測那個環境部呢也已經都重視到這個議題的嚴重性但是我們還是要考慮就是說這個產業界的是不是有能力來因應所以剛剛也特別強調說在這個偵測技術人才都還可能有待加強的這個背景之下我們這個貿然定下一個\n635943\t662660\t測不到或測不準的一個環境品質標準或者是事業單位的這個排放標準都我們真的要非常謹慎絕對不能說我們要貪圖這個速度去定一個做不到甚至是全世界最嚴格的標準我想這樣子對民眾或者是事業單位不僅是沒有好處可能是必大於利而且我們也還不知道就是說到底環境部最後會定什麼樣的標準\n663641\t684358\t是兩種都訂呢還是先訂某一種我想這個影響都是很大的那希望就是說環境部能夠慎重考慮本席所提出的建議那最後就是說我有在網路查詢到一些相關的資料就看到\n685259\t697771\t有網友的留言分享給大家啦就是說環境部的總統政策跟評論燈紅酒綠不代我啦 地球暖化全怪我我想這個一併給大家參考 謝謝好 謝謝陳瀅委員謝謝次長\n","txt":"好啦那個我今天質詢不會太長然後也謝謝昭緯其實對不是本委員會的委員也相當的優待了這個也請前面委員要理解然後那個請那個等一下\n這沒關係啊 那個我們請那個次長來 陳次這個不要問了對委員好\n好 次長好 今天我們討論這個因應歐盟管制PM1的這個議題那首先我想要釐清問題的本質在你們新發布的白皮書第63頁有指出在推動AI與感測科技建構全方位監控體系那加強這個PM1就是細懸浮為例的這個污染掌握\n那對於這個彭部長跟這個環境部的這個專業跟承擔我想在這裡本席是非常的期待但是呢部長也有講到就是說問題的本質是在於很難精準量測那需要引進國際新的這個監測技術跟儀器還有這個監測人力的培養所以我們在環境部是不是已經有能力來監測PM1了呢\nPM1可以啦 PM1可以監測那這個但目前我們法規有沒有PM1的這個標準目前PM1的部分還沒有法規我想這個也是跟美國歐洲歐美大概都是一樣的接軌啦這種管制標準好那PM1可以追蹤掌握它的污染源嗎\n向委員報告那個像PM1的部分他可能他的來源也是相當複雜我們也還需要再更多資料來做分析那不外乎PM1的部分跟交通員也是有密切相關所以你的答案是現在可以追蹤掌握嗎我們目前可以來做進一步的調查你要對著麥克風聽到嗎\n我們可以做進一步的調查跟蒐集資料那PM1的部分最主要還是來自於光化學反應還有是交通源的排放等等這個是我們現階段所理解的如果要建構到像PM2.5這樣的一個來源我們可能還需要更多的資料跟時間\n所以好那所以看起來還有很多進步的空間那如果說未來事業單位排放超標的話目前看起來應該是還不能開罰吧因為管制標準還沒有定沒錯\n好 那在這個空氣品質的監測跟這個個別污染源的監測可能是不同層次的技術那空氣品質監測是在一定時間空間的一個平均值的一個概念但是如果是事業單位或特定的污染源的話就會涉及到這個短時間高濃度的排放值那你們現在有能力去克服這個部分的技術嗎\n向委員報告相關的空氣品檢測或固定原源的檢測基本上都可以執行不過剛才提到那個比較小的微粒像PM1或者是PM0.1如果在煙道裡面就是所謂的個別污染源檢測來講這需要再克服因為它的濾鏡太小它的運動不像我們一般測的那種濾狀物大顆的濾狀污染物可能現階段可能都還要再進一步的研究才可以\n好那這樣看起來就是說當然低濃度的PM1和這個空氣品質可能就是比較難監測的那常常會測不到或測不準然後卻被認為就是零這是有可能的那超過這個設備的偵測極限就會被定義為這個non-detective\n所以在未來你們訂定標準如果太低已經也很難監測得到那非常有可能就是通通會出現一個ND值然後大家都以為說偵測到的就是零那白話文的說法其實也就是驗不到如果這樣的標準或者數據發布這樣看起來可能也沒有什麼意義基於這些問題就是說環境部要如何來避免這樣的結果出現\n那個檢測方法的訂定一定會根據你的偵測極限用什麼方法那極限到哪裡那你訂出那一個檢測出來數據的標準所以不可能說訂一個標準就你的偵測極限已經沒辦法偵測到那個都沒有意義了所以這個部分我們\n我想國際管制也都是一樣他一定會訂出一個技術上可以測出來的部分那剛有講說過去對PM0.1因為太細了所以不會用質量濃度會改為用顆粒的方式那就會去算每立方公分裡面大概有多少顆\n那目前我們也是用這種方式在測比如說我們在那個台大完工所那一個測站在白天的時候測出來濃度就會比晚上就是說上下班尖峰時刻測出來濃度就會比不是尖峰時刻但很明顯有差異所以我們就證實了說的確這個PM0.1的濃度會是移動污染源交通所造成的影響是有的\n好謝謝次郎的說明那如果說是人為排放的這個高濃度的PM1的話那也就是說比較容易偵測的到那但是這樣採樣其實可能還是比較困難的而且還會受到其他溫度濕度還有風力風向的影響嘛那誤差範圍會很大那在你們實務上要怎麼去克服解決這樣的問題\n像歐盟他們要求兩年之內會員國都要開始測監測站去測監測站那個儀器的監測經過校正之後然後每天都執行了這個監測出來的結果每立方公分有多少顆數那個結果都可以當作是我們監測的結果那至於固定汙染源或者是其他的排放點所排放出來的那另外還要有監測的方法然後訂出管制標準那個都是後續會去做的事情\n所以我們還是要循序漸進我們先去了解現在大氣中的一個監測的結果然後去找出可能的來源然後開始就會定管制標準那你們目前掌握的歐盟的管制措施大概有哪些\n我們也是根據一些研究報告所呈現的大家知道說這個對人體健康是會有影響的啦齁那譬如說我們過去可能比較重視的是排氣直接排出來了那現在不是排氣這\n包括煞車的時候那一個煞車皮或者是輪胎在路上磨的那個都會揚起那個粉塵的部分那個都是來源所以那個部分我們也都會把它納入我們的空瓶排皮書裡面在未來的十年裡面這個都是我們的重點\n所以我們未來也台灣也會有能力去比較辦理是那現在現在的新車現在就沒辦法沒有就是跟歐盟一樣啊他們現在也沒有說有管制標準可以提供給各國來參考那我們最後我先請教就是說以pm2.5來講我們有沒有辦法收集處理\n我們PM2.5已經從105年到現在降從20降到現在的12.8去年所以這個各縣市都在往下降你說下降但我講的是收集處理\n測當然就是測出他最後排放出來他為什麼排放出來會下降當然就是因為被我們空氣污染防治設備所收集了那實務上我們回到這個PM1的這個污染控制那實務上這個PM1有沒有辦法收集處理業界有沒有能力去做這個污染防治\n像委員報告就是有關如果PM1它是原生性就直接排放的話目前還是有機會用過濾的方式或者用靜電集成的方式來做處理所以我們會不會就是說未來標準定下去然後會不會就影響到產業的競爭力我不知道你們的次長這個就誠如剛才次長說明的所以我們需要更多的資料來做研議\n所以我想這個聽起來目前大家資訊其實都不是很足夠的前提之下所以我覺得可能在未來我們如果要開始訂定這個標準的時候可能也\n要很谨慎啦因为这个定下去有没有能力去做这个我说业界有没有去有没有能力去做这个污染防治然后会不会整个这个产业的这个竞争力被影响到我想在我们定力的时候都要非常非常的谨慎小心\n是我們任何管制標準都是會有一定的程序學者專家研議然後跟國際的法規接軌然後業界這邊改進的技術是不是到位這個都會把它考量進來還有鄰近國家的情況我想本席認為就是說雖然歐盟已經開始要管制那環境部\n開始監測那個環境部呢也已經都重視到這個議題的嚴重性但是我們還是要考慮就是說這個產業界的是不是有能力來因應所以剛剛也特別強調說在這個偵測技術人才都還可能有待加強的這個背景之下我們這個貿然定下一個\n測不到或測不準的一個環境品質標準或者是事業單位的這個排放標準都我們真的要非常謹慎絕對不能說我們要貪圖這個速度去定一個做不到甚至是全世界最嚴格的標準我想這樣子對民眾或者是事業單位不僅是沒有好處可能是必大於利而且我們也還不知道就是說到底環境部最後會定什麼樣的標準\n是兩種都訂呢還是先訂某一種我想這個影響都是很大的那希望就是說環境部能夠慎重考慮本席所提出的建議那最後就是說我有在網路查詢到一些相關的資料就看到\n有網友的留言分享給大家啦就是說環境部的總統政策跟評論燈紅酒綠不代我啦 地球暖化全怪我我想這個一併給大家參考 謝謝好 謝謝陳瀅委員謝謝次長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.743 --> 00:26.533\n好啦那個我今天質詢不會太長然後也謝謝昭緯其實對不是本委員會的委員也相當的優待了這個也請前面委員要理解然後那個請那個等一下\n\n00:28.170 --> 00:31.174\n這沒關係啊那個我們請那個次長來陳次這個不要問了對委員好\n\n00:37.691 --> 01:01.360\n好次長好今天我們討論這個因應歐盟管制PM1的這個議題那首先我想要釐清問題的本質在你們新發布的白皮書第63頁有指出在推動AI與感測科技建構全方位監控體系那加強這個PM1就是細懸浮為例的這個污染掌握\n\n01:02.745 --> 01:30.584\n那對於這個彭部長跟這個環境部的這個專業跟承擔我想在這裡本席是非常的期待但是呢部長也有講到就是說問題的本質是在於很難精準量測那需要引進國際新的這個監測技術跟儀器還有這個監測人力的培養所以我們在環境部是不是已經有能力來監測PM1了呢\n\n01:34.209 --> 02:00.401\nPM1可以啦PM1可以監測那這個但目前我們法規有沒有PM1的這個標準目前PM1的部分還沒有法規我想這個也是跟美國歐洲歐美大概都是一樣的接軌啦這種管制標準好那PM1可以追蹤掌握它的污染源嗎\n\n02:04.952 --> 02:28.402\n向委員報告那個像PM1的部分他可能他的來源也是相當複雜我們也還需要再更多資料來做分析那不外乎PM1的部分跟交通員也是有密切相關所以你的答案是現在可以追蹤掌握嗎我們目前可以來做進一步的調查你要對著麥克風聽到嗎\n\n02:30.555 --> 02:47.478\n我們可以做進一步的調查跟蒐集資料那PM1的部分最主要還是來自於光化學反應還有是交通源的排放等等這個是我們現階段所理解的如果要建構到像PM2.5這樣的一個來源我們可能還需要更多的資料跟時間\n\n02:48.683 --> 03:03.330\n所以好那所以看起來還有很多進步的空間那如果說未來事業單位排放超標的話目前看起來應該是還不能開罰吧因為管制標準還沒有定沒錯\n\n03:04.110 --> 03:28.733\n好那在這個空氣品質的監測跟這個個別污染源的監測可能是不同層次的技術那空氣品質監測是在一定時間空間的一個平均值的一個概念但是如果是事業單位或特定的污染源的話就會涉及到這個短時間高濃度的排放值那你們現在有能力去克服這個部分的技術嗎\n\n03:33.158 --> 04:02.741\n向委員報告相關的空氣品檢測或固定原源的檢測基本上都可以執行不過剛才提到那個比較小的微粒像PM1或者是PM0.1如果在煙道裡面就是所謂的個別污染源檢測來講這需要再克服因為它的濾鏡太小它的運動不像我們一般測的那種濾狀物大顆的濾狀污染物可能現階段可能都還要再進一步的研究才可以\n\n04:03.001 --> 04:22.422\n好那這樣看起來就是說當然低濃度的PM1和這個空氣品質可能就是比較難監測的那常常會測不到或測不準然後卻被認為就是零這是有可能的那超過這個設備的偵測極限就會被定義為這個non-detective\n\n04:26.005 --> 04:54.192\n所以在未來你們訂定標準如果太低已經也很難監測得到那非常有可能就是通通會出現一個ND值然後大家都以為說偵測到的就是零那白話文的說法其實也就是驗不到如果這樣的標準或者數據發布這樣看起來可能也沒有什麼意義基於這些問題就是說環境部要如何來避免這樣的結果出現\n\n04:55.555 --> 05:12.943\n那個檢測方法的訂定一定會根據你的偵測極限用什麼方法那極限到哪裡那你訂出那一個檢測出來數據的標準所以不可能說訂一個標準就你的偵測極限已經沒辦法偵測到那個都沒有意義了所以這個部分我們\n\n05:13.803 --> 05:29.884\n我想國際管制也都是一樣他一定會訂出一個技術上可以測出來的部分那剛有講說過去對PM0.1因為太細了所以不會用質量濃度會改為用顆粒的方式那就會去算每立方公分裡面大概有多少顆\n\n05:30.945 --> 05:52.824\n那目前我們也是用這種方式在測比如說我們在那個台大完工所那一個測站在白天的時候測出來濃度就會比晚上就是說上下班尖峰時刻測出來濃度就會比不是尖峰時刻但很明顯有差異所以我們就證實了說的確這個PM0.1的濃度會是移動污染源交通所造成的影響是有的\n\n05:53.800 --> 06:18.799\n好謝謝次郎的說明那如果說是人為排放的這個高濃度的PM1的話那也就是說比較容易偵測的到那但是這樣採樣其實可能還是比較困難的而且還會受到其他溫度濕度還有風力風向的影響嘛那誤差範圍會很大那在你們實務上要怎麼去克服解決這樣的問題\n\n06:21.505 --> 06:49.081\n像歐盟他們要求兩年之內會員國都要開始測監測站去測監測站那個儀器的監測經過校正之後然後每天都執行了這個監測出來的結果每立方公分有多少顆數那個結果都可以當作是我們監測的結果那至於固定汙染源或者是其他的排放點所排放出來的那另外還要有監測的方法然後訂出管制標準那個都是後續會去做的事情\n\n06:49.858 --> 07:08.371\n所以我們還是要循序漸進我們先去了解現在大氣中的一個監測的結果然後去找出可能的來源然後開始就會定管制標準那你們目前掌握的歐盟的管制措施大概有哪些\n\n07:10.114 --> 07:24.150\n我們也是根據一些研究報告所呈現的大家知道說這個對人體健康是會有影響的啦齁那譬如說我們過去可能比較重視的是排氣直接排出來了那現在不是排氣這\n\n07:25.752 --> 07:41.137\n包括煞車的時候那一個煞車皮或者是輪胎在路上磨的那個都會揚起那個粉塵的部分那個都是來源所以那個部分我們也都會把它納入我們的空瓶排皮書裡面在未來的十年裡面這個都是我們的重點\n\n07:41.957 --> 08:02.914\n所以我們未來也台灣也會有能力去比較辦理是那現在現在的新車現在就沒辦法沒有就是跟歐盟一樣啊他們現在也沒有說有管制標準可以提供給各國來參考那我們最後我先請教就是說以pm2.5來講我們有沒有辦法收集處理\n\n08:05.751 --> 08:18.430\n我們PM2.5已經從105年到現在降從20降到現在的12.8去年所以這個各縣市都在往下降你說下降但我講的是收集處理\n\n08:21.748 --> 08:44.424\n測當然就是測出他最後排放出來他為什麼排放出來會下降當然就是因為被我們空氣污染防治設備所收集了那實務上我們回到這個PM1的這個污染控制那實務上這個PM1有沒有辦法收集處理業界有沒有能力去做這個污染防治\n\n08:48.976 --> 09:13.496\n像委員報告就是有關如果PM1它是原生性就直接排放的話目前還是有機會用過濾的方式或者用靜電集成的方式來做處理所以我們會不會就是說未來標準定下去然後會不會就影響到產業的競爭力我不知道你們的次長這個就誠如剛才次長說明的所以我們需要更多的資料來做研議\n\n09:15.206 --> 09:27.943\n所以我想這個聽起來目前大家資訊其實都不是很足夠的前提之下所以我覺得可能在未來我們如果要開始訂定這個標準的時候可能也\n\n09:31.528 --> 09:50.107\n要很谨慎啦因为这个定下去有没有能力去做这个我说业界有没有去有没有能力去做这个污染防治然后会不会整个这个产业的这个竞争力被影响到我想在我们定力的时候都要非常非常的谨慎小心\n\n09:50.427 --> 10:10.914\n是我們任何管制標準都是會有一定的程序學者專家研議然後跟國際的法規接軌然後業界這邊改進的技術是不是到位這個都會把它考量進來還有鄰近國家的情況我想本席認為就是說雖然歐盟已經開始要管制那環境部\n\n10:12.234 --> 10:34.983\n開始監測那個環境部呢也已經都重視到這個議題的嚴重性但是我們還是要考慮就是說這個產業界的是不是有能力來因應所以剛剛也特別強調說在這個偵測技術人才都還可能有待加強的這個背景之下我們這個貿然定下一個\n\n10:35.943 --> 11:02.660\n測不到或測不準的一個環境品質標準或者是事業單位的這個排放標準都我們真的要非常謹慎絕對不能說我們要貪圖這個速度去定一個做不到甚至是全世界最嚴格的標準我想這樣子對民眾或者是事業單位不僅是沒有好處可能是必大於利而且我們也還不知道就是說到底環境部最後會定什麼樣的標準\n\n11:03.641 --> 11:24.358\n是兩種都訂呢還是先訂某一種我想這個影響都是很大的那希望就是說環境部能夠慎重考慮本席所提出的建議那最後就是說我有在網路查詢到一些相關的資料就看到\n\n11:25.259 --> 11:37.771\n有網友的留言分享給大家啦就是說環境部的總統政策跟評論燈紅酒綠不代我啦地球暖化全怪我我想這個一併給大家參考謝謝好謝謝陳瀅委員謝謝次長\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.743,"end":26.533,"text":"好啦那個我今天質詢不會太長然後也謝謝昭緯其實對不是本委員會的委員也相當的優待了這個也請前面委員要理解然後那個請那個等一下"},{"start":28.17,"end":31.174,"text":"這沒關係啊 那個我們請那個次長來 陳次這個不要問了對委員好"},{"start":37.691,"end":61.36,"text":"好 次長好 今天我們討論這個因應歐盟管制PM1的這個議題那首先我想要釐清問題的本質在你們新發布的白皮書第63頁有指出在推動AI與感測科技建構全方位監控體系那加強這個PM1就是細懸浮為例的這個污染掌握"},{"start":62.745,"end":90.584,"text":"那對於這個彭部長跟這個環境部的這個專業跟承擔我想在這裡本席是非常的期待但是呢部長也有講到就是說問題的本質是在於很難精準量測那需要引進國際新的這個監測技術跟儀器還有這個監測人力的培養所以我們在環境部是不是已經有能力來監測PM1了呢"},{"start":94.209,"end":120.401,"text":"PM1可以啦 PM1可以監測那這個但目前我們法規有沒有PM1的這個標準目前PM1的部分還沒有法規我想這個也是跟美國歐洲歐美大概都是一樣的接軌啦這種管制標準好那PM1可以追蹤掌握它的污染源嗎"},{"start":124.952,"end":148.402,"text":"向委員報告那個像PM1的部分他可能他的來源也是相當複雜我們也還需要再更多資料來做分析那不外乎PM1的部分跟交通員也是有密切相關所以你的答案是現在可以追蹤掌握嗎我們目前可以來做進一步的調查你要對著麥克風聽到嗎"},{"start":150.555,"end":167.478,"text":"我們可以做進一步的調查跟蒐集資料那PM1的部分最主要還是來自於光化學反應還有是交通源的排放等等這個是我們現階段所理解的如果要建構到像PM2.5這樣的一個來源我們可能還需要更多的資料跟時間"},{"start":168.683,"end":183.33,"text":"所以好那所以看起來還有很多進步的空間那如果說未來事業單位排放超標的話目前看起來應該是還不能開罰吧因為管制標準還沒有定沒錯"},{"start":184.11,"end":208.733,"text":"好 那在這個空氣品質的監測跟這個個別污染源的監測可能是不同層次的技術那空氣品質監測是在一定時間空間的一個平均值的一個概念但是如果是事業單位或特定的污染源的話就會涉及到這個短時間高濃度的排放值那你們現在有能力去克服這個部分的技術嗎"},{"start":213.158,"end":242.741,"text":"向委員報告相關的空氣品檢測或固定原源的檢測基本上都可以執行不過剛才提到那個比較小的微粒像PM1或者是PM0.1如果在煙道裡面就是所謂的個別污染源檢測來講這需要再克服因為它的濾鏡太小它的運動不像我們一般測的那種濾狀物大顆的濾狀污染物可能現階段可能都還要再進一步的研究才可以"},{"start":243.001,"end":262.422,"text":"好那這樣看起來就是說當然低濃度的PM1和這個空氣品質可能就是比較難監測的那常常會測不到或測不準然後卻被認為就是零這是有可能的那超過這個設備的偵測極限就會被定義為這個non-detective"},{"start":266.005,"end":294.192,"text":"所以在未來你們訂定標準如果太低已經也很難監測得到那非常有可能就是通通會出現一個ND值然後大家都以為說偵測到的就是零那白話文的說法其實也就是驗不到如果這樣的標準或者數據發布這樣看起來可能也沒有什麼意義基於這些問題就是說環境部要如何來避免這樣的結果出現"},{"start":295.555,"end":312.943,"text":"那個檢測方法的訂定一定會根據你的偵測極限用什麼方法那極限到哪裡那你訂出那一個檢測出來數據的標準所以不可能說訂一個標準就你的偵測極限已經沒辦法偵測到那個都沒有意義了所以這個部分我們"},{"start":313.803,"end":329.884,"text":"我想國際管制也都是一樣他一定會訂出一個技術上可以測出來的部分那剛有講說過去對PM0.1因為太細了所以不會用質量濃度會改為用顆粒的方式那就會去算每立方公分裡面大概有多少顆"},{"start":330.945,"end":352.824,"text":"那目前我們也是用這種方式在測比如說我們在那個台大完工所那一個測站在白天的時候測出來濃度就會比晚上就是說上下班尖峰時刻測出來濃度就會比不是尖峰時刻但很明顯有差異所以我們就證實了說的確這個PM0.1的濃度會是移動污染源交通所造成的影響是有的"},{"start":353.8,"end":378.799,"text":"好謝謝次郎的說明那如果說是人為排放的這個高濃度的PM1的話那也就是說比較容易偵測的到那但是這樣採樣其實可能還是比較困難的而且還會受到其他溫度濕度還有風力風向的影響嘛那誤差範圍會很大那在你們實務上要怎麼去克服解決這樣的問題"},{"start":381.505,"end":409.081,"text":"像歐盟他們要求兩年之內會員國都要開始測監測站去測監測站那個儀器的監測經過校正之後然後每天都執行了這個監測出來的結果每立方公分有多少顆數那個結果都可以當作是我們監測的結果那至於固定汙染源或者是其他的排放點所排放出來的那另外還要有監測的方法然後訂出管制標準那個都是後續會去做的事情"},{"start":409.858,"end":428.371,"text":"所以我們還是要循序漸進我們先去了解現在大氣中的一個監測的結果然後去找出可能的來源然後開始就會定管制標準那你們目前掌握的歐盟的管制措施大概有哪些"},{"start":430.114,"end":444.15,"text":"我們也是根據一些研究報告所呈現的大家知道說這個對人體健康是會有影響的啦齁那譬如說我們過去可能比較重視的是排氣直接排出來了那現在不是排氣這"},{"start":445.752,"end":461.137,"text":"包括煞車的時候那一個煞車皮或者是輪胎在路上磨的那個都會揚起那個粉塵的部分那個都是來源所以那個部分我們也都會把它納入我們的空瓶排皮書裡面在未來的十年裡面這個都是我們的重點"},{"start":461.957,"end":482.914,"text":"所以我們未來也台灣也會有能力去比較辦理是那現在現在的新車現在就沒辦法沒有就是跟歐盟一樣啊他們現在也沒有說有管制標準可以提供給各國來參考那我們最後我先請教就是說以pm2.5來講我們有沒有辦法收集處理"},{"start":485.751,"end":498.43,"text":"我們PM2.5已經從105年到現在降從20降到現在的12.8去年所以這個各縣市都在往下降你說下降但我講的是收集處理"},{"start":501.748,"end":524.424,"text":"測當然就是測出他最後排放出來他為什麼排放出來會下降當然就是因為被我們空氣污染防治設備所收集了那實務上我們回到這個PM1的這個污染控制那實務上這個PM1有沒有辦法收集處理業界有沒有能力去做這個污染防治"},{"start":528.976,"end":553.496,"text":"像委員報告就是有關如果PM1它是原生性就直接排放的話目前還是有機會用過濾的方式或者用靜電集成的方式來做處理所以我們會不會就是說未來標準定下去然後會不會就影響到產業的競爭力我不知道你們的次長這個就誠如剛才次長說明的所以我們需要更多的資料來做研議"},{"start":555.206,"end":567.943,"text":"所以我想這個聽起來目前大家資訊其實都不是很足夠的前提之下所以我覺得可能在未來我們如果要開始訂定這個標準的時候可能也"},{"start":571.528,"end":590.107,"text":"要很谨慎啦因为这个定下去有没有能力去做这个我说业界有没有去有没有能力去做这个污染防治然后会不会整个这个产业的这个竞争力被影响到我想在我们定力的时候都要非常非常的谨慎小心"},{"start":590.427,"end":610.914,"text":"是我們任何管制標準都是會有一定的程序學者專家研議然後跟國際的法規接軌然後業界這邊改進的技術是不是到位這個都會把它考量進來還有鄰近國家的情況我想本席認為就是說雖然歐盟已經開始要管制那環境部"},{"start":612.234,"end":634.983,"text":"開始監測那個環境部呢也已經都重視到這個議題的嚴重性但是我們還是要考慮就是說這個產業界的是不是有能力來因應所以剛剛也特別強調說在這個偵測技術人才都還可能有待加強的這個背景之下我們這個貿然定下一個"},{"start":635.943,"end":662.66,"text":"測不到或測不準的一個環境品質標準或者是事業單位的這個排放標準都我們真的要非常謹慎絕對不能說我們要貪圖這個速度去定一個做不到甚至是全世界最嚴格的標準我想這樣子對民眾或者是事業單位不僅是沒有好處可能是必大於利而且我們也還不知道就是說到底環境部最後會定什麼樣的標準"},{"start":663.641,"end":684.358,"text":"是兩種都訂呢還是先訂某一種我想這個影響都是很大的那希望就是說環境部能夠慎重考慮本席所提出的建議那最後就是說我有在網路查詢到一些相關的資料就看到"},{"start":685.259,"end":697.771,"text":"有網友的留言分享給大家啦就是說環境部的總統政策跟評論燈紅酒綠不代我啦 地球暖化全怪我我想這個一併給大家參考 謝謝好 謝謝陳瀅委員謝謝次長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":796,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時56分）我今天的質詢不會太長，也謝謝召委，其實召委對於不是本委員會的委員已經相當優待了，這個也請前面委員要理解。召委，麻煩請次長。"],["主席：請沈次長。"],["沈次長志修：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：次長好。今天我們來討論因應歐盟管制PM0.1的這個議題，首先我想要釐清問題的本質，在你們新發布的白皮書第63頁有指出，推動AI與感測科技建構全方位監控體系，加強PM1（細懸浮微粒）等微細污染掌握。對於彭部長跟環境部的專業跟承擔，本席是非常的期待，但是部長也有講到，問題的本質在於很難精準量測，需要引進國際新的監測技術跟儀器，以及監測人力的培養，請問環境部是不是已經有能力來監測PM1了呢？"],["沈次長志修：PM1可以啦。"],["陳委員瑩：PM1可以監測？"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["陳委員瑩：目前我們的法規有沒有PM1的相關標準？"],["沈次長志修：目前PM1的部分還沒有法規，我想這個部分也是會跟美國、歐洲等接軌管制標準。"],["陳委員瑩：好，可以追蹤掌握PM1的污染源嗎？"],["黃司長偉鳴：向委員報告，像PM1的部分，可能它的來源也是相當複雜，我們也還需要更多的資料來做分析，不外乎，PM1的部分跟交通源也是有密切相關啦。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你的答案是現在可以追蹤、掌握嗎？"],["黃司長偉鳴：目前可以去做進一步的調查跟蒐集資料，PM1的部分最主要還是來自於光化學反應，還有交通源的排放等等，這個是我們現階段所理解的，如果要建構到像PM2.5這樣的來源，我們可能還需要更多的資料跟時間。"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以看起來還有很多進步的空間啦，如果未來事業單位的排放超標的話，目前看起來應該是還不能開罰吧？"],["沈次長志修：因為管制標準還沒有訂定。"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯。空氣品質的監測跟個別污染源的監測可能是不同層次的技術，空氣品質監測是在一定時間、空間的平均值概念，但如果是事業單位或特定污染源的話，就會涉及到短時間高濃度的排放值，你們現在有能力去克服這個部分的技術嗎？"],["黃司長偉鳴：向委員報告，相關的空氣品質監測或固定污染源監測，基本上都可以執行，不過剛才提到那個比較小的微粒，像PM1或者是PM0.1，如果在煙道裡面，就是所謂的個別污染源監測來講，這需要再克服，因為它的粒徑太小，它的運動不像我們一般測的那種大顆的粒狀污染物，現階段可能都還要再進一步的研究才可以。"],["陳委員瑩：好。現在看起來低濃度的PM1和空氣品質可能是比較難監測的，常常會測不到或測不準，卻被認為就是0，這是有可能的。超過設備的偵測極限就會被定義為「Non Detectable」，所以未來你們訂定標準如果訂太低，儀器很難監測的到，非常有可能通通會出現ND值嘛！大家都以為偵測到的是0，白話文的說法，其實就是驗不到，如果發布這樣的標準或者數據，看起來可能也沒有什麼意義，環境部基於這些問題要如何避免這樣的結果出現？"],["沈次長志修：檢測方法的訂定一定會根據偵測極限、用什麼方法及極限到哪裡？訂出那一個檢測出來數據的標準，所以不可能訂一個標準，結果偵測極限已經沒有辦法偵測到，那個都沒有意義了，所以針對這個部分，我想國際管制也都是一樣，他們一定會訂出一個技術上可以測出來的部分。剛剛有提到過去對PM0.1的偵測方式，因為太細了，所以不會用質量濃度而是改用顆粒數濃度的方式，以計算每立方公分裡大概有多少顆，目前我們也是用這種方式在測，比如我們在臺大環工所的測站，在白天的時候測出來濃度就會比晚上……就是上下班尖峰時刻測出來濃度就會比不是尖峰時刻會有很明顯的差異，所以我們就證實的確這個PM0.1的濃度會是移動污染源，交通所造成的影響是有的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝次長的說明。如果是人為排放高濃度PM1的話，也就是比較容易偵測得到，但是這樣採樣可能還是比較困難，而且還會受到其他溫度、溼度、風力及風向的影響嘛！誤差範圍會很大，在你們實務上要怎麼去克服解決這樣的問題？"],["沈次長志修：像歐盟要求他們會員國要在兩年之內都要開始設置監測站做偵測，監測站的監測儀器經過校正之後，每天所執行監測出來的結果為每立方公分有多少顆數，那個結果都可以當作是我們監測的結果；至於固定污染源或者其他的排放點所排放出來的，另外還要有監測的方法，再訂出管制標準，都是後續會去做的事情。"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以你們還是要循序漸進。"],["沈次長志修：對，我們先去了解現在大氣中監測的結果，再去找出可能的來源，之後開始就會訂定管制標準。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你們目前掌握歐盟的管制措施大概有哪些？"],["沈次長志修：我們也是根據一些研究報告所呈現的，大家知道這個對人體健康是會有影響的啦！譬如我們過去可能比較重視的是排氣所直接排出來的，現在不只是排氣，還包括煞車皮在煞車過程中的磨損或者輪胎在路面上磨的，這些都會揚起粉塵，也都是污染來源，所以針對這個部分，我們會把它納入我們的空品白皮書裡，在未來10年裡，這些都是我們施政的重點。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我們臺灣未來也會有能力比照辦理嗎？"],["沈次長志修：是。現在新車的部分……"],["陳委員瑩：現在就沒辦法？"],["沈次長志修：沒有，就是跟歐盟一樣啊！他們現在也沒有說有管制標準可以提供給各國來參考。"],["陳委員瑩：好。最後，我先請教以PM2.5來講，你們有沒有辦法收集處理？"],["沈次長志修：我們針對PM2.5的改善已經從105年20微克/立方公尺降到去年的12.8微克/立方公尺，所以各縣市都在往下降。"],["陳委員瑩：對阿！你說下降，但我問的是收集處理。"],["沈次長志修：偵測當然就是測出它最後排放出來的污染源，它為什麼排放出來會下降，就是因為被我們空氣污染防制設備所收集了。"],["陳委員瑩：我們回到PM1的污染控制，實務上，這個PM1有沒有辦法收集處理？業界有沒有能力去做污染防制？"],["黃司長偉鳴：向委員報告，如果PM1是原生性就是直接排放的話，目前還是有機會用過濾的方式，或是用靜電集塵的方式做處理。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們未來標準訂下去會不會影響到產業的競爭力？司長，我不知道你們的看法怎樣？"],["黃司長偉鳴：這個就誠如剛才次長說明的，我們需要更多的資料來做研議。"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以聽起來目前大家資訊都不是很足夠的前提之下，我覺得在未來如果你們要開始訂定這個標準的時候，可能要很謹慎啦！因為這個標準訂下去，業界有沒有能力做污染防制？會不會影響到整個產業的競爭力？我想在你們訂定的時候，都要非常非常的謹慎小心。"],["沈次長志修：是，我們任何管制標準都是會有一定的程序，學者專家的研議、跟國際的法規接軌及業界這邊改進的技術是不是到位，這些都會把它考量進去，還有鄰近國家的情況。"],["陳委員瑩：好，本席認為雖然歐盟已經開始要管制，環境部……"],["沈次長志修：開始監測。"],["陳委員瑩：開始監測，好。環境部也已經都重視到這個議題的嚴重性，但是你們還是要考慮產業界是不是有能力來因應啦！所以剛剛也特別強調，在這個偵測技術及人才都可能還有待加強的背景之下，我們貿然訂下一個測不到或測不準的環境品質標準，或者是事業單位的排放標準，你們真的要非常謹慎，絕對不能為了貪圖這個速度去訂一個做不到，甚至是訂出全世界最嚴格的標準，我想這樣子對民眾或者事業單位不僅是沒有好處，可能是弊大於利，而且我們也還不知道，到底環境部最後會訂什麼樣的標準？是兩種都訂呢？還是先訂某一種？我想這個影響都是很大的，希望環境部能夠審慎考慮本席所提出的建議。","最後，我有在網路查詢到一些相關的資料，有看到網友的留言來分享給大家，就是環境部的種種政策跟評論「燈紅酒綠不帶我，地球暖化全怪我」，這個一併給大家參考，謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員曜代）：好，謝謝陳瑩委員、謝謝次長。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：下一位麻煩楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":178,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","麥玉珍","陳瑩","楊曜","廖偉翔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、交通部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部就「因應歐盟管制超細懸浮微粒\n（PM0.1），我國空污管制政策如何精進、提升，保障國人健康安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146302_00002"}}}