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那我們現在在看到的是遇到中東的問題的情況之下可能更嚴重的情形在往下看的時候這邊我看到的是天然氣現在已經超過到58點多趴了那現在的話是可能還有錢能買得到萬一的時候這部分如果繼續的以一戰爭在持續下去的荷姆斯海峽被\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 325.155, \"end\": 325.335, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 325.335, \"end\": 325.475, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 325.475, \"end\": 325.575, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 325.575, \"end\": 325.956, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 325.956, \"end\": 326.096, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"遇\", \"start\": 326.096, \"end\": 326.236, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 326.236, \"end\": 326.456, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 326.456, \"end\": 326.596, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 326.596, \"end\": 326.716, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 326.716, \"end\": 327.296, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 327.296, \"end\": 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\"但是在白天來講的話我們有其他的這個再生能源的運作他白天的時候沒有到同樣的是晚上啊這個問題就出現在晚上我知道但是那只是一段的時間並不能夠而且他主要是因為我們要降排降那個碳排啦但是晚上都沒有碳排嗎會把氣上去嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 402.395, \"end\": 402.535, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 402.535, \"end\": 402.735, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 402.735, \"end\": 403.015, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"白\", \"start\": 403.015, \"end\": 403.296, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 403.296, \"end\": 403.876, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 403.876, \"end\": 404.176, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 404.176, \"end\": 404.416, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 404.416, \"end\": 404.596, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 404.596, \"end\": 404.817, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 404.817, \"end\": 405.117, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 405.117, \"end\": 405.977, 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00:01:38,486\n對是的那我們繼續往下看這個部分呢就根據到說在5月17號開始進行到停機的時候呢我們看到在河山的這個2號機跟河山2號機在6點的時候呢到晚上到10點多的時候我們把這個資料有做這些截圖那我們後來就發現到呢把這作業整理的情況之下就發現到的是說在那天的這個核能占比呢\n\n6\n00:01:39,187 --> 00:01:43,769\n6點多是1.33到1.77這部分然後到了晚上的時候當然是變成0%可是在火力發電呢可以看到的是它的占比已經從84%變得到到10點鐘之後呢就已經到達91.12%了那它就發現它總發電量呢它其實已經在減少但是我們看到天然氣的這個比重呢已經降到58.24發現這個情況的時候特別我們知道是有時候要恭喜一下就是\n\n7\n00:02:06,836 --> 00:02:19,525\n當初台電所設定的目標在天然氣的部分的燃氣是在2030年就達到可是現在在2025年就達到了這要恭喜但是想要請問的是這樣的情況之下火力發電到91.12%到這個天然氣是58.6%但是它有什麼缺點呢想請問部長你認為在這種情況之下天然氣跟火力發電到這樣的情況之下或是說請這個能源署的部分來回答\n\n8\n00:02:36,312 --> 00:02:41,923\n這有什麼缺點呢當火力發電到達當天晚上達到91.12%天然氣是58.24%的時候那有什麼缺點呢\n\n9\n00:02:48,234 --> 00:03:15,655\n剛才我們已經知道囉電力的發生電力它必須要符合到的是供應要安全那如果你們還不知道這個答案我也覺得蠻訝異的齁可能不符合這樣的一個對供應安全如果是到58.24%到未來如果發生到什麼狀況的時候你特別去依賴天然氣當然我就想問一個問題再說如果這邊部長跟副署長這邊不能回答嗎\n\n10\n00:03:17,848 --> 00:03:45,417\n我請副市長回答一下天然氣當然58.24%它有什麼缺點嗎我在想能源的供應本來就是一個mixing它就是一個混合所以這個基本上就是說燃氣機組它有它的特性比如說像現在我們再生年的量比較多的時候它的反應速度是比較快的所以我在想這個整個能源政策的設計當初其實都考慮到整個長遠國家的發展\n\n11\n00:03:47,449 --> 00:04:09,626\n好那如果這樣的話我們現在看看這個資料上面可以看到說是在5月17號前天然氣儲備讓國人是我國是在8到18可是國際的標準是30天那整個接收站的負載率是百分之百等於說超安全區的百分之70這就是缺點啦這就是缺點那競爭力這部分我們也看一下是在\n\n12\n00:04:10,876 --> 00:04:16,817\n是在這個地方它因為用的是因為核能在所有的你們成本當中它是目前大概是最便宜的之一那我們看到天然氣這部分還包括的是再生能源部分平均價格都是要5點多元那這邊從減核也沒有到最便宜的部分因為減核造成效果所以你的競爭力可能就是不是要用一個適當的價格的部分碳的部分可以看到它的減碳的部分因為它必須要火力發電站增多的部分再加進來\n\n13\n00:04:37,461 --> 00:04:56,830\n所以就這樣看起來的話天然氣減核跟碳排這一部分其實是你如果就這樣看的話它有符合供應安全競爭力跟永續發展的狀況嗎報告委員我們在發展綠色能源主要是要因應RE100啦那麼這個需求它需要的是綠色的能源\n\n14\n00:04:57,915 --> 00:05:23,687\n那我們當然全力在朝一個2050年零碳的目標在努力但是我有問過以前2030年我們2030年我們必須要解決這個綠色能源的問題所以我們現在全力在拉抬把這個部分創造出來但是我們還有一個目的就是要減碳所以我們降燃煤提升燃氣主要是這個樣子快速在轉換\n\n15\n00:05:25,155 --> 00:05:53,632\n對但是你們現在我們遇到的原因就我的觀察在這邊你們並沒有針對我剛剛的問題直接回答現在它其實有遇到這樣子的狀況了已經是這樣那我們現在在看到的是遇到中東的問題的情況之下可能更嚴重的情形在往下看的時候這邊我看到的是天然氣現在已經超過到58點多趴了那現在的話是可能還有錢能買得到萬一的時候這部分如果繼續的以一戰爭在持續下去的荷姆斯海峽被\n\n16\n00:05:54,690 --> 00:06:21,138\n被封鎖的情況可以看到說未來油價跟天然氣的供應我們35%是在這邊的話是有錢蠻難買到的啊然後另外核能的部分因為你現在不夠的這個天然氣的部分等等的因為只有8到15天的情況那這種情況之下被迫就是要用到你剛才有說的排碳的部分沒燒沒可能就要增加進去的我們剛才委員講的是正確的啦我們意思說那一天會58%\n\n17\n00:06:23,226 --> 00:06:40,874\n基本上就過去的設計他應該是把那個煤上去啦但是因為我們那個氣比較快所以我們就讓他上去58%但是他不是不是一個平均但是現在呢荷姆斯海峽如果這邊占成怎麼辦呢他只是在那個時段有占到58%\n\n18\n00:06:42,395 --> 00:07:00,907\n但是在白天來講的話我們有其他的這個再生能源的運作他白天的時候沒有到同樣的是晚上啊這個問題就出現在晚上我知道但是那只是一段的時間並不能夠而且他主要是因為我們要降排降那個碳排啦但是晚上都沒有碳排嗎會把氣上去嘛\n\n19\n00:07:01,227 --> 00:07:19,213\n對但是晚上的部分因為晚上的部分當然還是有碳嘛我意思是說減碳我們大家都在共同在努力在減碳所以用氣的部分它是最快的可以減碳這樣好其實更重要我想要問一下你們在部分的我們現在看到的還有一個重要的問題是減排的這部分你們現在是不是把這個問題放到放到後面後面的這個來解決的因為現在可能是事實上有一個缺電的這個問題啊\n\n20\n00:07:26,115 --> 00:07:50,828\n那在這個地方的時候呢特別要跟大家講的是這個碳排的你們事實上要減排是要達到是要達到是其實要達到是大概是目前要有好幾兩百多每個人的全部大概是兩百多萬噸的這個二氧化碳的當量這部分那這部分我的資料其實是顯示出來我們到目前的為止以到2020年來說其實到目前還在升高的部分好\n\n21\n00:07:52,469 --> 00:08:12,646\n可以了解的是櫃部在這部分台電事實上是還有蠻多的問題因為你要有能源要有這個因為你要有天然氣的部分可是現在的部分的話在天然氣的部分它有沒辦法去完成到說\n\n22\n00:08:13,587 --> 00:08:40,757\n有可能供應有斷水其實以前有些蠻難難道那競爭力這方面並沒有再使用到是一個比較合理的而且現在看現在重要的是你們有沒有估計到今年的台電虧損會多少如果再用這個價格的話台電虧損有沒有考慮到會不會或是營運你們是怎麼樣是會贏還是虧呢我想我們都在努力啦讓台電這個我們事實上如果說沒有借款沒有那麼大的利息的負擔的話我們台電應該是不至於說虧損\n\n23\n00:08:42,734 --> 00:09:01,995\n所以你們我們現在最大的問題就是我們借了很多錢然後現在銀行也不再想再繼續借給我們的錢那我們要借更多的錢可能利息要付更高所以我們虧損就更大你們之前已經虧了大概兩三千億嘛那現在這個情況之下今年你認為是說今年還是可能沒有利息那麼高這個問題能夠解決掉就對了\n\n24\n00:09:04,677 --> 00:09:26,406\n我們會很努力但我想委員應該看到我們台電所有的同仁都非常用心很努力的在執行他們的工作任務那我們在這一個部分我想如果讓台電可以在負債裡面更減輕他的這個負擔的話我相信台電會表現得更好\n\n25\n00:09:27,563 --> 00:09:35,370\n現在看起來是達不到一個一個說到底你們的虧跟損成本那你們這邊另外你們剛才可以跟立法院來做解釋是嗎是我們要我們請立法院各位大委員能夠同意我們這一次的這個民事預算這個緊急預算的這個一千億的撥補請委員大力支持再最後一個問題在你們請教那個吳副署長\n\n26\n00:09:50,243 --> 00:10:11,176\n這一部分關於在淨零碳排的這一部分的時候那你們有沒有每年的這樣子的一個目標因為我現在只看到的是說在2030的部分可是每年的這個淨零碳排的目標其實非常的粗糙並沒有像每年的狀況有報告委員我們大概都有目標對然後我們跟委員報告委員比較關心的可能是那個電力排汽數的部分我們也持續一直在下降\n\n27\n00:10:12,837 --> 00:10:23,424\n這就是你們比較我就不能說是狡猾的部分你們在用所謂的排碳的這個電力排碳的密度這部分是用每度去算的可是這種情況之下的時候你的量是增加的時候它導致的情況是還在整個量還是總量在增加你們用這個來去\n\n28\n00:10:30,349 --> 00:10:50,743\n來去蒙混這樣的一個情況事實上是不符合的因為國際間的話最重要是看到的是你的個人的還包括是全部的總量我想這部分的話希望說希望在未來我就還繼續追這個話題我希望是說在能源署這邊呢能夠做這部分就淨零碳排的每年的地方尤其是針對個人跟總量的部分不要只有單單只針對電力排汰係數的這一部分的電力的這邊的這個密度的部分去講因為這部分是不是一個全時勤的情況\n\n29\n00:11:00,189 --> 00:11:00,390\n現在請圖權及委員做詢答\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9891\t28901\t好 謝謝主席 那請經濟部 郭部長 郭部長委員好 部長好 那今天來跟您討論關於能源政策的問題請問有\n33459\t34401\t抱歉先暫停一下時間嗎因為還有\n43216\t65301\t我們看到台灣的這個能源政策我們想要問的是說有沒有符合到IEA就是國際能源總署的三個目標這三個目標就是一個確保能源的供應安全還有競爭力跟環境的永續跟減碳先請教部長是您同意到說台灣目前就是要擬定政策的時候是有往這個方向在進行嗎\n66414\t73813\t我想國際的這樣的一個方向都是我們參考的一個標準好 因為它其實還有因地制宜 尤其是在社能源發展 您同意吧\n75747\t98486\t對 是的 那我們繼續往下看這個部分呢 就根據到說在5月17號開始進行到停機的時候呢我們看到在河山的這個2號機跟河山2號機在6點的時候呢到晚上到10點多的時候我們把這個資料有做這些截圖那我們後來就發現到呢把這作業整理的情況之下就發現到的是說在那天的這個核能占比呢\n99187\t103769\t6點多是1.33到1.77這部分然後到了晚上的時候當然是變成0%可是在火力發電呢可以看到的是它的占比已經從84%變得到到10點鐘之後呢就已經到達91.12%了那它就發現它總發電量呢它其實已經在減少但是我們看到天然氣的這個比重呢已經降到58.24發現這個情況的時候特別我們知道是有時候要恭喜一下就是\n126836\t139525\t當初台電所設定的目標在天然氣的部分的燃氣是在2030年就達到可是現在在2025年就達到了這要恭喜但是想要請問的是這樣的情況之下火力發電到91.12%到這個天然氣是58.6%但是它有什麼缺點呢想請問部長你認為在這種情況之下天然氣跟火力發電到這樣的情況之下或是說請這個能源署的部分來回答\n156312\t161923\t這有什麼缺點呢當火力發電到達當天晚上達到91.12%天然氣是58.24%的時候那有什麼缺點呢\n168234\t195655\t剛才我們已經知道囉電力的發生 電力它必須要符合到的是供應要安全那如果你們還不知道這個答案 我也覺得蠻訝異的齁可能不符合這樣的一個對供應安全如果是到58.24%到未來如果發生到什麼狀況的時候你特別去依賴天然氣當然我就想問一個問題再說如果這邊部長跟副署長這邊不能回答嗎\n197848\t225417\t我請副市長回答一下天然氣當然58.24%它有什麼缺點嗎我在想能源的供應本來就是一個mixing它就是一個混合所以這個基本上就是說燃氣機組它有它的特性比如說像現在我們再生年的量比較多的時候它的反應速度是比較快的所以我在想這個整個能源政策的設計當初其實都考慮到整個長遠國家的發展\n227449\t249626\t好 那如果這樣的話 我們現在看看這個資料上面 可以看到說是在5月17號前 天然氣儲備讓國人是 我國是在8到18可是國際的標準是30天那整個接收站的負載率是百分之百 等於說超安全區的百分之70這就是缺點啦 這就是缺點 那競爭力這部分我們也看一下 是在\n250876\t256817\t是在這個地方它因為用的是 因為核能在所有的你們成本當中它是目前大概是最便宜的之一那我們看到天然氣這部分還包括的是再生能源部分平均價格都是要5點多元那這邊從減核也沒有到最便宜的部分因為減核造成效果所以你的競爭力可能就是不是要用一個適當的價格的部分碳的部分可以看到它的減碳的部分因為它必須要火力發電站增多的部分再加進來\n277461\t296830\t所以就這樣看起來的話天然氣減核跟碳排這一部分其實是你如果就這樣看的話它有符合供應安全競爭力跟永續發展的狀況嗎報告委員我們在發展綠色能源主要是要因應RE100啦那麼這個需求它需要的是綠色的能源\n297915\t323687\t那我們當然全力在朝一個2050年零碳的目標在努力但是我有問過以前2030年我們2030年我們必須要解決這個綠色能源的問題所以我們現在全力在拉抬把這個部分創造出來但是我們還有一個目的就是要減碳所以我們降燃煤提升燃氣主要是這個樣子快速在轉換\n325155\t353632\t對 但是你們現在我們遇到的原因就我的觀察在這邊你們並沒有針對我剛剛的問題直接回答現在它其實有遇到這樣子的狀況了已經是這樣 那我們現在在看到的是遇到中東的問題的情況之下可能更嚴重的情形在往下看的時候這邊我看到的是天然氣現在已經超過到58點多趴了那現在的話是可能還有錢能買得到萬一的時候這部分如果繼續的以一戰爭在持續下去的荷姆斯海峽被\n354690\t381138\t被封鎖的情況可以看到說未來油價跟天然氣的供應我們35%是在這邊的話是有錢蠻難買到的啊然後另外核能的部分因為你現在不夠的這個天然氣的部分等等的因為只有8到15天的情況那這種情況之下被迫就是要用到你剛才有說的排碳的部分沒燒沒可能就要增加進去的我們剛才委員講的是正確的啦我們意思說那一天會58%\n383226\t400874\t基本上就過去的設計他應該是把那個煤上去啦但是因為我們那個氣比較快所以我們就讓他上去58%但是他不是不是一個平均但是現在呢荷姆斯海峽如果這邊占成怎麼辦呢他只是在那個時段有占到58%\n402395\t420907\t但是在白天來講的話我們有其他的這個再生能源的運作他白天的時候沒有到同樣的是晚上啊這個問題就出現在晚上我知道但是那只是一段的時間並不能夠而且他主要是因為我們要降排降那個碳排啦但是晚上都沒有碳排嗎會把氣上去嘛\n421227\t439213\t對 但是晚上的部分因為晚上的部分當然還是有碳嘛我意思是說減碳我們大家都在共同在努力在減碳所以用氣的部分它是最快的可以減碳這樣好 其實更重要我想要問一下你們在部分的我們現在看到的還有一個重要的問題是減排的這部分你們現在是不是把這個問題放到放到後面後面的這個來解決的因為現在可能是事實上有一個缺電的這個問題啊\n446115\t470828\t那在這個地方的時候呢特別要跟大家講的是這個碳排的你們事實上要減排是要達到是要達到是其實要達到是大概是目前要有好幾兩百多每個人的全部大概是兩百多萬噸的這個二氧化碳的當量這部分那這部分我的資料其實是顯示出來我們到目前的為止以到2020年來說其實到目前還在升高的部分好\n472469\t492646\t可以了解的是櫃部在這部分台電事實上是還有蠻多的問題因為你要有能源要有這個因為你要有天然氣的部分可是現在的部分的話在天然氣的部分它有沒辦法去完成到說\n493587\t520757\t有可能供應有斷水 其實以前有些蠻難難道那競爭力這方面並沒有再使用到是一個比較合理的而且現在看 現在重要的是你們有沒有估計到今年的台電虧損會多少 如果再用這個價格的話台電虧損有沒有考慮到 會不會或是營運你們是怎麼樣是會贏還是虧呢我想我們都在努力啦 讓台電這個我們事實上如果說沒有借款沒有那麼大的利息的負擔的話我們台電應該是不至於說虧損\n522734\t541995\t所以你們我們現在最大的問題就是我們借了很多錢然後現在銀行也不再想再繼續借給我們的錢那我們要借更多的錢可能利息要付更高所以我們虧損就更大你們之前已經虧了大概兩三千億嘛那現在這個情況之下今年你認為是說今年還是可能沒有利息那麼高這個問題能夠解決掉就對了\n544677\t566406\t我們會很努力 但我想委員應該看到我們台電所有的同仁都非常用心很努力的在執行他們的工作任務那我們在這一個部分我想如果讓台電可以在負債裡面更減輕他的這個負擔的話我相信台電會表現得更好\n567563\t575370\t現在看起來是達不到一個 一個說到底你們的虧跟損成本那你們這邊另外 你們剛才可以跟立法院來做解釋是嗎是 我們要 我們請立法院各位大委員能夠同意我們這一次的這個民事預算 這個緊急預算的這個一千億的撥補請委員大力支持再最後一個問題 在你們請教那個吳副署長\n590243\t611176\t這一部分關於在淨零碳排的這一部分的時候那你們有沒有每年的這樣子的一個目標因為我現在只看到的是說在2030的部分可是每年的這個淨零碳排的目標其實非常的粗糙並沒有像每年的狀況有報告委員我們大概都有目標對然後我們跟委員報告委員比較關心的可能是那個電力排汽數的部分我們也持續一直在下降\n612837\t623424\t這就是你們比較 我就不能說是狡猾的部分你們在用所謂的排碳的這個電力排碳的密度這部分是用每度去算的可是這種情況之下的時候你的量是增加的時候它導致的情況是還在整個量還是總量在增加你們用這個來去\n630349\t650743\t來去蒙混這樣的一個情況 事實上是不符合的因為國際間的話 最重要是看到的是你的個人的還包括是全部的總量 我想這部分的話希望說 希望在未來我就還繼續追這個話題 我希望是說在能源署這邊呢 能夠做這部分就淨零碳排的每年的地方 尤其是針對個人跟總量的部分不要只有單單只針對電力排汰係數的這一部分的電力的這邊的這個密度的部分去講 因為這部分是不是一個全時勤的情況\n660189\t660390\t現在請圖權及委員做詢答\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那請經濟部 郭部長 郭部長委員好 部長好 那今天來跟您討論關於能源政策的問題請問有\n抱歉先暫停一下時間嗎因為還有\n我們看到台灣的這個能源政策我們想要問的是說有沒有符合到IEA就是國際能源總署的三個目標這三個目標就是一個確保能源的供應安全還有競爭力跟環境的永續跟減碳先請教部長是您同意到說台灣目前就是要擬定政策的時候是有往這個方向在進行嗎\n我想國際的這樣的一個方向都是我們參考的一個標準好 因為它其實還有因地制宜 尤其是在社能源發展 您同意吧\n對 是的 那我們繼續往下看這個部分呢 就根據到說在5月17號開始進行到停機的時候呢我們看到在河山的這個2號機跟河山2號機在6點的時候呢到晚上到10點多的時候我們把這個資料有做這些截圖那我們後來就發現到呢把這作業整理的情況之下就發現到的是說在那天的這個核能占比呢\n6點多是1.33到1.77這部分然後到了晚上的時候當然是變成0%可是在火力發電呢可以看到的是它的占比已經從84%變得到到10點鐘之後呢就已經到達91.12%了那它就發現它總發電量呢它其實已經在減少但是我們看到天然氣的這個比重呢已經降到58.24發現這個情況的時候特別我們知道是有時候要恭喜一下就是\n當初台電所設定的目標在天然氣的部分的燃氣是在2030年就達到可是現在在2025年就達到了這要恭喜但是想要請問的是這樣的情況之下火力發電到91.12%到這個天然氣是58.6%但是它有什麼缺點呢想請問部長你認為在這種情況之下天然氣跟火力發電到這樣的情況之下或是說請這個能源署的部分來回答\n這有什麼缺點呢當火力發電到達當天晚上達到91.12%天然氣是58.24%的時候那有什麼缺點呢\n剛才我們已經知道囉電力的發生 電力它必須要符合到的是供應要安全那如果你們還不知道這個答案 我也覺得蠻訝異的齁可能不符合這樣的一個對供應安全如果是到58.24%到未來如果發生到什麼狀況的時候你特別去依賴天然氣當然我就想問一個問題再說如果這邊部長跟副署長這邊不能回答嗎\n我請副市長回答一下天然氣當然58.24%它有什麼缺點嗎我在想能源的供應本來就是一個mixing它就是一個混合所以這個基本上就是說燃氣機組它有它的特性比如說像現在我們再生年的量比較多的時候它的反應速度是比較快的所以我在想這個整個能源政策的設計當初其實都考慮到整個長遠國家的發展\n好 那如果這樣的話 我們現在看看這個資料上面 可以看到說是在5月17號前 天然氣儲備讓國人是 我國是在8到18可是國際的標準是30天那整個接收站的負載率是百分之百 等於說超安全區的百分之70這就是缺點啦 這就是缺點 那競爭力這部分我們也看一下 是在\n是在這個地方它因為用的是 因為核能在所有的你們成本當中它是目前大概是最便宜的之一那我們看到天然氣這部分還包括的是再生能源部分平均價格都是要5點多元那這邊從減核也沒有到最便宜的部分因為減核造成效果所以你的競爭力可能就是不是要用一個適當的價格的部分碳的部分可以看到它的減碳的部分因為它必須要火力發電站增多的部分再加進來\n所以就這樣看起來的話天然氣減核跟碳排這一部分其實是你如果就這樣看的話它有符合供應安全競爭力跟永續發展的狀況嗎報告委員我們在發展綠色能源主要是要因應RE100啦那麼這個需求它需要的是綠色的能源\n那我們當然全力在朝一個2050年零碳的目標在努力但是我有問過以前2030年我們2030年我們必須要解決這個綠色能源的問題所以我們現在全力在拉抬把這個部分創造出來但是我們還有一個目的就是要減碳所以我們降燃煤提升燃氣主要是這個樣子快速在轉換\n對 但是你們現在我們遇到的原因就我的觀察在這邊你們並沒有針對我剛剛的問題直接回答現在它其實有遇到這樣子的狀況了已經是這樣 那我們現在在看到的是遇到中東的問題的情況之下可能更嚴重的情形在往下看的時候這邊我看到的是天然氣現在已經超過到58點多趴了那現在的話是可能還有錢能買得到萬一的時候這部分如果繼續的以一戰爭在持續下去的荷姆斯海峽被\n被封鎖的情況可以看到說未來油價跟天然氣的供應我們35%是在這邊的話是有錢蠻難買到的啊然後另外核能的部分因為你現在不夠的這個天然氣的部分等等的因為只有8到15天的情況那這種情況之下被迫就是要用到你剛才有說的排碳的部分沒燒沒可能就要增加進去的我們剛才委員講的是正確的啦我們意思說那一天會58%\n基本上就過去的設計他應該是把那個煤上去啦但是因為我們那個氣比較快所以我們就讓他上去58%但是他不是不是一個平均但是現在呢荷姆斯海峽如果這邊占成怎麼辦呢他只是在那個時段有占到58%\n但是在白天來講的話我們有其他的這個再生能源的運作他白天的時候沒有到同樣的是晚上啊這個問題就出現在晚上我知道但是那只是一段的時間並不能夠而且他主要是因為我們要降排降那個碳排啦但是晚上都沒有碳排嗎會把氣上去嘛\n對 但是晚上的部分因為晚上的部分當然還是有碳嘛我意思是說減碳我們大家都在共同在努力在減碳所以用氣的部分它是最快的可以減碳這樣好 其實更重要我想要問一下你們在部分的我們現在看到的還有一個重要的問題是減排的這部分你們現在是不是把這個問題放到放到後面後面的這個來解決的因為現在可能是事實上有一個缺電的這個問題啊\n那在這個地方的時候呢特別要跟大家講的是這個碳排的你們事實上要減排是要達到是要達到是其實要達到是大概是目前要有好幾兩百多每個人的全部大概是兩百多萬噸的這個二氧化碳的當量這部分那這部分我的資料其實是顯示出來我們到目前的為止以到2020年來說其實到目前還在升高的部分好\n可以了解的是櫃部在這部分台電事實上是還有蠻多的問題因為你要有能源要有這個因為你要有天然氣的部分可是現在的部分的話在天然氣的部分它有沒辦法去完成到說\n有可能供應有斷水 其實以前有些蠻難難道那競爭力這方面並沒有再使用到是一個比較合理的而且現在看 現在重要的是你們有沒有估計到今年的台電虧損會多少 如果再用這個價格的話台電虧損有沒有考慮到 會不會或是營運你們是怎麼樣是會贏還是虧呢我想我們都在努力啦 讓台電這個我們事實上如果說沒有借款沒有那麼大的利息的負擔的話我們台電應該是不至於說虧損\n所以你們我們現在最大的問題就是我們借了很多錢然後現在銀行也不再想再繼續借給我們的錢那我們要借更多的錢可能利息要付更高所以我們虧損就更大你們之前已經虧了大概兩三千億嘛那現在這個情況之下今年你認為是說今年還是可能沒有利息那麼高這個問題能夠解決掉就對了\n我們會很努力 但我想委員應該看到我們台電所有的同仁都非常用心很努力的在執行他們的工作任務那我們在這一個部分我想如果讓台電可以在負債裡面更減輕他的這個負擔的話我相信台電會表現得更好\n現在看起來是達不到一個 一個說到底你們的虧跟損成本那你們這邊另外 你們剛才可以跟立法院來做解釋是嗎是 我們要 我們請立法院各位大委員能夠同意我們這一次的這個民事預算 這個緊急預算的這個一千億的撥補請委員大力支持再最後一個問題 在你們請教那個吳副署長\n這一部分關於在淨零碳排的這一部分的時候那你們有沒有每年的這樣子的一個目標因為我現在只看到的是說在2030的部分可是每年的這個淨零碳排的目標其實非常的粗糙並沒有像每年的狀況有報告委員我們大概都有目標對然後我們跟委員報告委員比較關心的可能是那個電力排汽數的部分我們也持續一直在下降\n這就是你們比較 我就不能說是狡猾的部分你們在用所謂的排碳的這個電力排碳的密度這部分是用每度去算的可是這種情況之下的時候你的量是增加的時候它導致的情況是還在整個量還是總量在增加你們用這個來去\n來去蒙混這樣的一個情況 事實上是不符合的因為國際間的話 最重要是看到的是你的個人的還包括是全部的總量 我想這部分的話希望說 希望在未來我就還繼續追這個話題 我希望是說在能源署這邊呢 能夠做這部分就淨零碳排的每年的地方 尤其是針對個人跟總量的部分不要只有單單只針對電力排汰係數的這一部分的電力的這邊的這個密度的部分去講 因為這部分是不是一個全時勤的情況\n現在請圖權及委員做詢答\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.891 --> 00:28.901\n好謝謝主席那請經濟部郭部長郭部長委員好部長好那今天來跟您討論關於能源政策的問題請問有\n\n00:33.459 --> 00:34.401\n抱歉先暫停一下時間嗎因為還有\n\n00:43.216 --> 01:05.301\n我們看到台灣的這個能源政策我們想要問的是說有沒有符合到IEA就是國際能源總署的三個目標這三個目標就是一個確保能源的供應安全還有競爭力跟環境的永續跟減碳先請教部長是您同意到說台灣目前就是要擬定政策的時候是有往這個方向在進行嗎\n\n01:06.414 --> 01:13.813\n我想國際的這樣的一個方向都是我們參考的一個標準好因為它其實還有因地制宜尤其是在社能源發展您同意吧\n\n01:15.747 --> 01:38.486\n對是的那我們繼續往下看這個部分呢就根據到說在5月17號開始進行到停機的時候呢我們看到在河山的這個2號機跟河山2號機在6點的時候呢到晚上到10點多的時候我們把這個資料有做這些截圖那我們後來就發現到呢把這作業整理的情況之下就發現到的是說在那天的這個核能占比呢\n\n01:39.187 --> 01:43.769\n6點多是1.33到1.77這部分然後到了晚上的時候當然是變成0%可是在火力發電呢可以看到的是它的占比已經從84%變得到到10點鐘之後呢就已經到達91.12%了那它就發現它總發電量呢它其實已經在減少但是我們看到天然氣的這個比重呢已經降到58.24發現這個情況的時候特別我們知道是有時候要恭喜一下就是\n\n02:06.836 --> 02:19.525\n當初台電所設定的目標在天然氣的部分的燃氣是在2030年就達到可是現在在2025年就達到了這要恭喜但是想要請問的是這樣的情況之下火力發電到91.12%到這個天然氣是58.6%但是它有什麼缺點呢想請問部長你認為在這種情況之下天然氣跟火力發電到這樣的情況之下或是說請這個能源署的部分來回答\n\n02:36.312 --> 02:41.923\n這有什麼缺點呢當火力發電到達當天晚上達到91.12%天然氣是58.24%的時候那有什麼缺點呢\n\n02:48.234 --> 03:15.655\n剛才我們已經知道囉電力的發生電力它必須要符合到的是供應要安全那如果你們還不知道這個答案我也覺得蠻訝異的齁可能不符合這樣的一個對供應安全如果是到58.24%到未來如果發生到什麼狀況的時候你特別去依賴天然氣當然我就想問一個問題再說如果這邊部長跟副署長這邊不能回答嗎\n\n03:17.848 --> 03:45.417\n我請副市長回答一下天然氣當然58.24%它有什麼缺點嗎我在想能源的供應本來就是一個mixing它就是一個混合所以這個基本上就是說燃氣機組它有它的特性比如說像現在我們再生年的量比較多的時候它的反應速度是比較快的所以我在想這個整個能源政策的設計當初其實都考慮到整個長遠國家的發展\n\n03:47.449 --> 04:09.626\n好那如果這樣的話我們現在看看這個資料上面可以看到說是在5月17號前天然氣儲備讓國人是我國是在8到18可是國際的標準是30天那整個接收站的負載率是百分之百等於說超安全區的百分之70這就是缺點啦這就是缺點那競爭力這部分我們也看一下是在\n\n04:10.876 --> 04:16.817\n是在這個地方它因為用的是因為核能在所有的你們成本當中它是目前大概是最便宜的之一那我們看到天然氣這部分還包括的是再生能源部分平均價格都是要5點多元那這邊從減核也沒有到最便宜的部分因為減核造成效果所以你的競爭力可能就是不是要用一個適當的價格的部分碳的部分可以看到它的減碳的部分因為它必須要火力發電站增多的部分再加進來\n\n04:37.461 --> 04:56.830\n所以就這樣看起來的話天然氣減核跟碳排這一部分其實是你如果就這樣看的話它有符合供應安全競爭力跟永續發展的狀況嗎報告委員我們在發展綠色能源主要是要因應RE100啦那麼這個需求它需要的是綠色的能源\n\n04:57.915 --> 05:23.687\n那我們當然全力在朝一個2050年零碳的目標在努力但是我有問過以前2030年我們2030年我們必須要解決這個綠色能源的問題所以我們現在全力在拉抬把這個部分創造出來但是我們還有一個目的就是要減碳所以我們降燃煤提升燃氣主要是這個樣子快速在轉換\n\n05:25.155 --> 05:53.632\n對但是你們現在我們遇到的原因就我的觀察在這邊你們並沒有針對我剛剛的問題直接回答現在它其實有遇到這樣子的狀況了已經是這樣那我們現在在看到的是遇到中東的問題的情況之下可能更嚴重的情形在往下看的時候這邊我看到的是天然氣現在已經超過到58點多趴了那現在的話是可能還有錢能買得到萬一的時候這部分如果繼續的以一戰爭在持續下去的荷姆斯海峽被\n\n05:54.690 --> 06:21.138\n被封鎖的情況可以看到說未來油價跟天然氣的供應我們35%是在這邊的話是有錢蠻難買到的啊然後另外核能的部分因為你現在不夠的這個天然氣的部分等等的因為只有8到15天的情況那這種情況之下被迫就是要用到你剛才有說的排碳的部分沒燒沒可能就要增加進去的我們剛才委員講的是正確的啦我們意思說那一天會58%\n\n06:23.226 --> 06:40.874\n基本上就過去的設計他應該是把那個煤上去啦但是因為我們那個氣比較快所以我們就讓他上去58%但是他不是不是一個平均但是現在呢荷姆斯海峽如果這邊占成怎麼辦呢他只是在那個時段有占到58%\n\n06:42.395 --> 07:00.907\n但是在白天來講的話我們有其他的這個再生能源的運作他白天的時候沒有到同樣的是晚上啊這個問題就出現在晚上我知道但是那只是一段的時間並不能夠而且他主要是因為我們要降排降那個碳排啦但是晚上都沒有碳排嗎會把氣上去嘛\n\n07:01.227 --> 07:19.213\n對但是晚上的部分因為晚上的部分當然還是有碳嘛我意思是說減碳我們大家都在共同在努力在減碳所以用氣的部分它是最快的可以減碳這樣好其實更重要我想要問一下你們在部分的我們現在看到的還有一個重要的問題是減排的這部分你們現在是不是把這個問題放到放到後面後面的這個來解決的因為現在可能是事實上有一個缺電的這個問題啊\n\n07:26.115 --> 07:50.828\n那在這個地方的時候呢特別要跟大家講的是這個碳排的你們事實上要減排是要達到是要達到是其實要達到是大概是目前要有好幾兩百多每個人的全部大概是兩百多萬噸的這個二氧化碳的當量這部分那這部分我的資料其實是顯示出來我們到目前的為止以到2020年來說其實到目前還在升高的部分好\n\n07:52.469 --> 08:12.646\n可以了解的是櫃部在這部分台電事實上是還有蠻多的問題因為你要有能源要有這個因為你要有天然氣的部分可是現在的部分的話在天然氣的部分它有沒辦法去完成到說\n\n08:13.587 --> 08:40.757\n有可能供應有斷水其實以前有些蠻難難道那競爭力這方面並沒有再使用到是一個比較合理的而且現在看現在重要的是你們有沒有估計到今年的台電虧損會多少如果再用這個價格的話台電虧損有沒有考慮到會不會或是營運你們是怎麼樣是會贏還是虧呢我想我們都在努力啦讓台電這個我們事實上如果說沒有借款沒有那麼大的利息的負擔的話我們台電應該是不至於說虧損\n\n08:42.734 --> 09:01.995\n所以你們我們現在最大的問題就是我們借了很多錢然後現在銀行也不再想再繼續借給我們的錢那我們要借更多的錢可能利息要付更高所以我們虧損就更大你們之前已經虧了大概兩三千億嘛那現在這個情況之下今年你認為是說今年還是可能沒有利息那麼高這個問題能夠解決掉就對了\n\n09:04.677 --> 09:26.406\n我們會很努力但我想委員應該看到我們台電所有的同仁都非常用心很努力的在執行他們的工作任務那我們在這一個部分我想如果讓台電可以在負債裡面更減輕他的這個負擔的話我相信台電會表現得更好\n\n09:27.563 --> 09:35.370\n現在看起來是達不到一個一個說到底你們的虧跟損成本那你們這邊另外你們剛才可以跟立法院來做解釋是嗎是我們要我們請立法院各位大委員能夠同意我們這一次的這個民事預算這個緊急預算的這個一千億的撥補請委員大力支持再最後一個問題在你們請教那個吳副署長\n\n09:50.243 --> 10:11.176\n這一部分關於在淨零碳排的這一部分的時候那你們有沒有每年的這樣子的一個目標因為我現在只看到的是說在2030的部分可是每年的這個淨零碳排的目標其實非常的粗糙並沒有像每年的狀況有報告委員我們大概都有目標對然後我們跟委員報告委員比較關心的可能是那個電力排汽數的部分我們也持續一直在下降\n\n10:12.837 --> 10:23.424\n這就是你們比較我就不能說是狡猾的部分你們在用所謂的排碳的這個電力排碳的密度這部分是用每度去算的可是這種情況之下的時候你的量是增加的時候它導致的情況是還在整個量還是總量在增加你們用這個來去\n\n10:30.349 --> 10:50.743\n來去蒙混這樣的一個情況事實上是不符合的因為國際間的話最重要是看到的是你的個人的還包括是全部的總量我想這部分的話希望說希望在未來我就還繼續追這個話題我希望是說在能源署這邊呢能夠做這部分就淨零碳排的每年的地方尤其是針對個人跟總量的部分不要只有單單只針對電力排汰係數的這一部分的電力的這邊的這個密度的部分去講因為這部分是不是一個全時勤的情況\n\n11:00.189 --> 11:00.390\n現在請圖權及委員做詢答\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.891,"end":28.901,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請經濟部 郭部長 郭部長委員好 部長好 那今天來跟您討論關於能源政策的問題請問有"},{"start":33.459,"end":34.401,"text":"抱歉先暫停一下時間嗎因為還有"},{"start":43.216,"end":65.301,"text":"我們看到台灣的這個能源政策我們想要問的是說有沒有符合到IEA就是國際能源總署的三個目標這三個目標就是一個確保能源的供應安全還有競爭力跟環境的永續跟減碳先請教部長是您同意到說台灣目前就是要擬定政策的時候是有往這個方向在進行嗎"},{"start":66.414,"end":73.813,"text":"我想國際的這樣的一個方向都是我們參考的一個標準好 因為它其實還有因地制宜 尤其是在社能源發展 您同意吧"},{"start":75.747,"end":98.486,"text":"對 是的 那我們繼續往下看這個部分呢 就根據到說在5月17號開始進行到停機的時候呢我們看到在河山的這個2號機跟河山2號機在6點的時候呢到晚上到10點多的時候我們把這個資料有做這些截圖那我們後來就發現到呢把這作業整理的情況之下就發現到的是說在那天的這個核能占比呢"},{"start":99.187,"end":103.769,"text":"6點多是1.33到1.77這部分然後到了晚上的時候當然是變成0%可是在火力發電呢可以看到的是它的占比已經從84%變得到到10點鐘之後呢就已經到達91.12%了那它就發現它總發電量呢它其實已經在減少但是我們看到天然氣的這個比重呢已經降到58.24發現這個情況的時候特別我們知道是有時候要恭喜一下就是"},{"start":126.836,"end":139.525,"text":"當初台電所設定的目標在天然氣的部分的燃氣是在2030年就達到可是現在在2025年就達到了這要恭喜但是想要請問的是這樣的情況之下火力發電到91.12%到這個天然氣是58.6%但是它有什麼缺點呢想請問部長你認為在這種情況之下天然氣跟火力發電到這樣的情況之下或是說請這個能源署的部分來回答"},{"start":156.312,"end":161.923,"text":"這有什麼缺點呢當火力發電到達當天晚上達到91.12%天然氣是58.24%的時候那有什麼缺點呢"},{"start":168.234,"end":195.655,"text":"剛才我們已經知道囉電力的發生 電力它必須要符合到的是供應要安全那如果你們還不知道這個答案 我也覺得蠻訝異的齁可能不符合這樣的一個對供應安全如果是到58.24%到未來如果發生到什麼狀況的時候你特別去依賴天然氣當然我就想問一個問題再說如果這邊部長跟副署長這邊不能回答嗎"},{"start":197.848,"end":225.417,"text":"我請副市長回答一下天然氣當然58.24%它有什麼缺點嗎我在想能源的供應本來就是一個mixing它就是一個混合所以這個基本上就是說燃氣機組它有它的特性比如說像現在我們再生年的量比較多的時候它的反應速度是比較快的所以我在想這個整個能源政策的設計當初其實都考慮到整個長遠國家的發展"},{"start":227.449,"end":249.626,"text":"好 那如果這樣的話 我們現在看看這個資料上面 可以看到說是在5月17號前 天然氣儲備讓國人是 我國是在8到18可是國際的標準是30天那整個接收站的負載率是百分之百 等於說超安全區的百分之70這就是缺點啦 這就是缺點 那競爭力這部分我們也看一下 是在"},{"start":250.876,"end":256.817,"text":"是在這個地方它因為用的是 因為核能在所有的你們成本當中它是目前大概是最便宜的之一那我們看到天然氣這部分還包括的是再生能源部分平均價格都是要5點多元那這邊從減核也沒有到最便宜的部分因為減核造成效果所以你的競爭力可能就是不是要用一個適當的價格的部分碳的部分可以看到它的減碳的部分因為它必須要火力發電站增多的部分再加進來"},{"start":277.461,"end":296.83,"text":"所以就這樣看起來的話天然氣減核跟碳排這一部分其實是你如果就這樣看的話它有符合供應安全競爭力跟永續發展的狀況嗎報告委員我們在發展綠色能源主要是要因應RE100啦那麼這個需求它需要的是綠色的能源"},{"start":297.915,"end":323.687,"text":"那我們當然全力在朝一個2050年零碳的目標在努力但是我有問過以前2030年我們2030年我們必須要解決這個綠色能源的問題所以我們現在全力在拉抬把這個部分創造出來但是我們還有一個目的就是要減碳所以我們降燃煤提升燃氣主要是這個樣子快速在轉換"},{"start":325.155,"end":353.632,"text":"對 但是你們現在我們遇到的原因就我的觀察在這邊你們並沒有針對我剛剛的問題直接回答現在它其實有遇到這樣子的狀況了已經是這樣 那我們現在在看到的是遇到中東的問題的情況之下可能更嚴重的情形在往下看的時候這邊我看到的是天然氣現在已經超過到58點多趴了那現在的話是可能還有錢能買得到萬一的時候這部分如果繼續的以一戰爭在持續下去的荷姆斯海峽被"},{"start":354.69,"end":381.138,"text":"被封鎖的情況可以看到說未來油價跟天然氣的供應我們35%是在這邊的話是有錢蠻難買到的啊然後另外核能的部分因為你現在不夠的這個天然氣的部分等等的因為只有8到15天的情況那這種情況之下被迫就是要用到你剛才有說的排碳的部分沒燒沒可能就要增加進去的我們剛才委員講的是正確的啦我們意思說那一天會58%"},{"start":383.226,"end":400.874,"text":"基本上就過去的設計他應該是把那個煤上去啦但是因為我們那個氣比較快所以我們就讓他上去58%但是他不是不是一個平均但是現在呢荷姆斯海峽如果這邊占成怎麼辦呢他只是在那個時段有占到58%"},{"start":402.395,"end":420.907,"text":"但是在白天來講的話我們有其他的這個再生能源的運作他白天的時候沒有到同樣的是晚上啊這個問題就出現在晚上我知道但是那只是一段的時間並不能夠而且他主要是因為我們要降排降那個碳排啦但是晚上都沒有碳排嗎會把氣上去嘛"},{"start":421.227,"end":439.213,"text":"對 但是晚上的部分因為晚上的部分當然還是有碳嘛我意思是說減碳我們大家都在共同在努力在減碳所以用氣的部分它是最快的可以減碳這樣好 其實更重要我想要問一下你們在部分的我們現在看到的還有一個重要的問題是減排的這部分你們現在是不是把這個問題放到放到後面後面的這個來解決的因為現在可能是事實上有一個缺電的這個問題啊"},{"start":446.115,"end":470.828,"text":"那在這個地方的時候呢特別要跟大家講的是這個碳排的你們事實上要減排是要達到是要達到是其實要達到是大概是目前要有好幾兩百多每個人的全部大概是兩百多萬噸的這個二氧化碳的當量這部分那這部分我的資料其實是顯示出來我們到目前的為止以到2020年來說其實到目前還在升高的部分好"},{"start":472.469,"end":492.646,"text":"可以了解的是櫃部在這部分台電事實上是還有蠻多的問題因為你要有能源要有這個因為你要有天然氣的部分可是現在的部分的話在天然氣的部分它有沒辦法去完成到說"},{"start":493.587,"end":520.757,"text":"有可能供應有斷水 其實以前有些蠻難難道那競爭力這方面並沒有再使用到是一個比較合理的而且現在看 現在重要的是你們有沒有估計到今年的台電虧損會多少 如果再用這個價格的話台電虧損有沒有考慮到 會不會或是營運你們是怎麼樣是會贏還是虧呢我想我們都在努力啦 讓台電這個我們事實上如果說沒有借款沒有那麼大的利息的負擔的話我們台電應該是不至於說虧損"},{"start":522.734,"end":541.995,"text":"所以你們我們現在最大的問題就是我們借了很多錢然後現在銀行也不再想再繼續借給我們的錢那我們要借更多的錢可能利息要付更高所以我們虧損就更大你們之前已經虧了大概兩三千億嘛那現在這個情況之下今年你認為是說今年還是可能沒有利息那麼高這個問題能夠解決掉就對了"},{"start":544.677,"end":566.406,"text":"我們會很努力 但我想委員應該看到我們台電所有的同仁都非常用心很努力的在執行他們的工作任務那我們在這一個部分我想如果讓台電可以在負債裡面更減輕他的這個負擔的話我相信台電會表現得更好"},{"start":567.563,"end":575.37,"text":"現在看起來是達不到一個 一個說到底你們的虧跟損成本那你們這邊另外 你們剛才可以跟立法院來做解釋是嗎是 我們要 我們請立法院各位大委員能夠同意我們這一次的這個民事預算 這個緊急預算的這個一千億的撥補請委員大力支持再最後一個問題 在你們請教那個吳副署長"},{"start":590.243,"end":611.176,"text":"這一部分關於在淨零碳排的這一部分的時候那你們有沒有每年的這樣子的一個目標因為我現在只看到的是說在2030的部分可是每年的這個淨零碳排的目標其實非常的粗糙並沒有像每年的狀況有報告委員我們大概都有目標對然後我們跟委員報告委員比較關心的可能是那個電力排汽數的部分我們也持續一直在下降"},{"start":612.837,"end":623.424,"text":"這就是你們比較 我就不能說是狡猾的部分你們在用所謂的排碳的這個電力排碳的密度這部分是用每度去算的可是這種情況之下的時候你的量是增加的時候它導致的情況是還在整個量還是總量在增加你們用這個來去"},{"start":630.349,"end":650.743,"text":"來去蒙混這樣的一個情況 事實上是不符合的因為國際間的話 最重要是看到的是你的個人的還包括是全部的總量 我想這部分的話希望說 希望在未來我就還繼續追這個話題 我希望是說在能源署這邊呢 能夠做這部分就淨零碳排的每年的地方 尤其是針對個人跟總量的部分不要只有單單只針對電力排汰係數的這一部分的電力的這邊的這個密度的部分去講 因為這部分是不是一個全時勤的情況"},{"start":660.189,"end":660.39,"text":"現在請圖權及委員做詢答"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":878,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（12時16分）謝謝主席。請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：部長好。今天來跟您討論關於能源政策的問題，我們看到臺灣的能源政策，想要問的是有沒有符合IEA（國際能源總署）的三個目標？這三個目標就是確保能源的供應安全、經濟效率與競爭力，還有環境永續跟減碳。先請教部長，您同意臺灣目前要擬訂政策的時候，是有往這個方向在進行嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想國際這樣的一個方向，都是我們參考的標準。"],["劉委員書彬：好，因為它其實還要因地制宜，尤其是再生能源發展，您同意吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["劉委員書彬：我們繼續往下看，5月17號開始進行停機的時候，我們把核三2號機在18點多到22點多的資料做一些截圖，在整理資料的情況下，我們後來就發現在那天18點多的時候，核能占比是1.33%到1.17%，到了22點多的時候，當然變成0%；可是看到火力發電占比從18點多的84%，到22點多之後已經達到91.12%了，總發電量其實是減少的；另外，我們看到天然氣占比已經占到58.24%。看到這個情況的時候，有時候是要恭喜一下，就是當初台電所設定的目標，天然氣的燃氣部分要在2030年達到，現在2025年就已經達到了，這要恭喜。","但是想要詢問的是，在這樣的情況之下，火力發電到91.12%及天然氣是58.24%，它有什麼缺點呢？想請問部長，你認為天然氣跟火力發電在這樣的情況之下，或請能源署來回答，這有什麼缺點呢？當晚火力發電到達91.12%、天然氣是58.24%的時候，有什麼缺點呢？剛剛我們已經知道，電力必須要符合供應安全，如果你們還不知道這個答案，我就蠻訝異的！如果天然氣到58.24%可能是不符合供應安全，未來如果發生什麼狀況的時候，當你特別依賴天然氣，當然我就想問這個問題。部長跟副署長不能回答嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我請副署長回答一下。"],["劉委員書彬：天然氣到達58.24%有什麼缺點嗎？"],["吳副署長志偉：我想能源的供應本來就是一個mixing（混合），所以基本上燃氣機組有它的特性，比如像現在我們再生能源的量比較多的時候，反應速度是比較快的，所以我想整個能源政策的設計，當初都有考慮到整個國家長遠的發展。"],["劉委員書彬：好，如果這樣，我們現在看看這個資料，在5月17號之前我國天然氣儲備是在8到14天，可是國際的標準是30天，整個接收站負載率是100%，等於超安全值70%，這就是缺點啦！在競爭力的部分，核能在你們所有成本當中大概是目前最便宜之一；再看到天然氣的部分，還包括再生能源，平均價格都是在五點多元，這邊減核也沒有用比較便宜，因為減核造成……所以你的競爭力可能不是用適當的價格。減碳的部分，因為必須要有更多的火力發電再加進來，所以這樣看起來，天然氣、減核跟碳排的部分，如果就這樣看的話，它有符合供應安全、競爭力跟永續發展的狀況嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們在發展綠色能源，主要是要因應RE100，這個需求需要的是綠色能源，我們當然全力在朝2050年零碳目標在努力，但是有一個眼前2030年……"],["劉委員書彬：我請問一下，核能算不算是零碳的能源呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們2030年必須要解決綠色能源的問題，所以現在全力在拉抬，把這個部分創造出來，但是我們還有一個目的就是要減碳，所以我們降燃煤、提升燃氣，主要是這個樣子，這是快速在轉換的。"],["劉委員書彬：對。但是我們遇到的問題，就我的觀察，你們並沒有針對我剛剛的問題直接回答，現在它其實有遇到這樣的狀況，我們現在看到的是，像遇到中東的情況之下可能更嚴重，那天看到的是天然氣已經超過到百分之五十八點多了，現在可能有錢還買得到，萬一以伊戰爭再持續下去，荷姆茲海峽被封鎖的情況，可以看到未來油價跟天然氣的供應，我們35%能源需求是在這邊的話，是有錢難買得到的；另外核能的部分，因為現在天然氣不夠，儲備量又只有8到14天，在這種情況之下，被迫就是要用到你剛剛說的碳的部分，燒煤可能就要增加進去了。"],["郭部長智輝：剛剛委員講的是正確的，我們的意思是說那一天會58%，基本上就過去的設計應該是把燃煤占比提升上去，但是因為天然氣比較快，所以我們就讓它上去到58%，但是它不是一個平均、長期……"],["劉委員書彬：但是現在如果荷姆茲海峽被封鎖怎麼辦呢？"],["郭部長智輝：它只是在那個時段有占到58%，但是以白天來講的話，我們有其他再生能源的運作，它白天的時候沒有到58%。"],["劉委員書彬：同樣地，這個問題就出現在晚上沒有再生能源。"],["郭部長智輝：我知道，但那只是一段的時間，並不能夠……而且它主要是因為我們要降碳排……"],["劉委員書彬：但是晚上就沒有碳排嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：所以會把燃氣提上去。"],["劉委員書彬：但是晚上的部分，因為……"],["郭部長智輝：晚上的部分當然還是有碳，我意思是說減碳，我們大家都共同努力在減碳，所以用燃氣的部分是最快的，可以減碳。"],["劉委員書彬：好。其實更重要我想問一下，我們現在看到還有一個重要問題是減排的部分，你們現在是不是把這個問題放到最後面再來解決？現在事實上可能有缺電的問題，特別要跟大家講的是減排的目標，目前全部大概是兩百多百萬噸二氧化碳當量，我的資料其實顯示出來，以2020年到目前來說其實還在升高。可以了解的是，貴部在台電的部分，事實上是還有蠻多的問題，因為能源要有天然氣的部分，可是現在天然氣可能有供應斷炊的疑慮，就算有錢也蠻難買得到；競爭力的部分，並沒有使用一個比較合理的價格。你們有沒有估計今年台電的虧損會多少？如果再採用那個價格的話，台電虧損有沒有估計到？或是營運方面結算是怎麼樣？是會盈，還是虧呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都在努力讓台電……事實上，如果我們沒有借款，沒有那麼大利息負擔的話，台電應該不至於虧損。"],["劉委員書彬：所以你們……"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在最大的問題就是我們借了很多錢，然後現在銀行也不想再繼續借錢給我們，我們要借更多的錢，可能利息要付更高，所以我們虧損就更大。"],["劉委員書彬：你們之前已經虧了大概二、三千億嘛，現在這個情況之下，今年你認為如果利息沒有那麼高，這個問題能夠解決掉就對了？是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會很努力，我想委員也應該看到台電所有同仁都非常用心、很努力地在執行他們的工作任務，在這個部分，我想如果讓台電可以更減輕負債的負擔的話，我相信台電會表現得更好。"],["劉委員書彬：現在看起來是達不到一個你們虧跟損的平衡。另外，你們剛剛有說可以跟立法院來做解釋嗎？比如財務的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們請立法院各位大委員能夠同意我們這次臨時預算、緊急預算1,000億的撥補，請各位委員大力支持。"],["劉委員書彬：好，最後一個問題請教吳副署長，關於淨零碳排，你們有沒有訂定每年的目標？因為我現在只看到2030年的部分，可是每年的淨零碳排目標非常地粗糙，並沒有每年報告狀況。"],["吳副署長志偉：有，報告委員，我們都有目標，委員比較關心的可能是電力排碳係數的部分，我們也持續一直在下降。"],["劉委員書彬：你們都用所謂的電力排碳密度，這部分事實上是用每度去算的，可是你的量增加，總量還是在增加的，你們用這個去蒙混，事實上是不符合的，因為國際間最重要是看個人的還包括全部的總量，未來我還會繼續追這個話題，我希望能源署每年能夠就淨零碳排、尤其是針對個人跟總量的部分，請不要只單單針對電力排碳係數、密度去講，因為這部分不是一個全時期的情況，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們來努力一下。"],["劉委員書彬：好，承諾囉！"],["主席：請把相關資料給劉委員。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝召委。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：現在涂權吉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張嘉郡","張啓楷","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","劉書彬","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","葉元之","蔡易餘","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","牛煦庭"],"page_start":397,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、農業部部長及中央銀行首長就「因應國際經貿情勢\n變化，如何協助我國產業面對台幣匯率及國際能源價格遽變」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146401_00008"}}}