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00:00:25,763\n謝謝主席我們請那個曾主委已經曾主委辛苦了到備訓台了主委早委員好主委剛剛這個帳錄那個委員在問您的時候您說平埔族有十個族群請問是哪十個譬如說希拉雅啦還有喀哈烏啦巴塞啦還有道卡斯啦大五龍喔還有巴布拉還有馬卡道族還有這個巴布薩還有凱達格蘭至少這九個\n\n2\n00:00:30,294 --> 00:00:47,440\n對嗎?你剛講10個還有一個紅咬,紅咬張畫的紅咬好,我們看一下這平埔族,因為我大概有做了一個表格不過我這邊是做了9個啦所以這邊的話,您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去他哪一個沒有放進去?所以我想其實剛剛蛤?嘎哈烏沒有放進去\n\n3\n00:00:59,844 --> 00:01:25,769\n就是少一個嘛對不對所以其實也是剛剛張宏魯委員特別講到事實上是不是有真的這十個而已還是還會有更多所以其實我們大概要討論的就是說平埔族現在到底他有多少族群他有多少的人口這可能都是我們要討論的重點那我們可以看到現在院版有一個這個平埔族平埔原住民族群的身份法的一個草案嘛\n\n4\n00:01:26,383 --> 00:01:34,416\n那我们可以看到这其实依据宪判自第17号的判决主文清楚的指出其实原住民主其他的台湾原住民族\n\n5\n00:01:34,932 --> 00:02:01,716\n及憲法增修條件第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段有規定保障的原住民族國家應該要維護他的語言跟文化那就這樣來看我們可以看到貴會的報告其實你引用的是黃大法官等協同意見書的說法認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠的事項與取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用而另以法律定定之\n\n6\n00:02:02,336 --> 00:02:26,579\n那所以主委您的意思是這樣的立法是不是已經預設說平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益我跟委員報告現在的三眼平眼當然他們有目前在硬做的一個權益但是平埔原住民的族人一直以為就是說他現在一進來馬上就適用這個三眼跟平眼其實他們\n\n7\n00:02:27,617 --> 00:02:47,579\n自己平埔原住民所遭遇到的一些多年來的所遭遇到他們所損失的有時候是延延超過三延跟平延當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源跟更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎如果照你剛剛這段話的說法\n\n8\n00:02:49,737 --> 00:03:18,195\n過去他們欠缺尤其是他們的語言文化的流失是特別的嚴重當然我們就要用比較特別不是適用於現在的這個原住民基本法更要用另外的專法讓他們就是說讓他們的潛力更能夠更好更周圍這樣子好那請問一下主委我們現在平埔族到底是多少人口內政部的統計內政部的統計就是說大概是會有98萬的人口\n\n9\n00:03:19,408 --> 00:03:39,519\n這也是你5月22在這個備詢的時候提到的平埔族有98萬人那我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人那你剛剛提到的聽起來好像是平埔族的權益資源應該要更多因為他們過去犧牲太多那這樣的話我們以原住民現有的這個今年的年度預算是122億元\n\n10\n00:03:41,800 --> 00:04:10,524\n是61萬人那如果你在把評估98萬人都納入的話請問一下主委你有沒有初步預算每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠好更為報告我們講98萬不是不是今年年底一下子就98萬一定登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬好那如果登記了一半我們都會有我們都會現在我們正在盤整就是說我們假設到今年年底10萬人來登記\n\n11\n00:04:11,224 --> 00:04:30,931\n當然明年的預算當然就是必須那如果你預期10萬人那如果一次來了50萬人那你的預算要怎麼辦我跟委員報告這個預算當然我們要跟醫院裡面來做報告行政院來做報告當然國家的資源就必須要更多來預租來照顧那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算\n\n12\n00:04:32,931 --> 00:04:54,888\n這個我想預算的部分原民會的預算就那麼多不可能說平埔原住民的這個主人進來我們的預算還是那麼多這樣的話所以今天我們大家其實比較質疑的就是說好現在我們平埔主要正名可是你原有的原民的預算就這麼多那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些的預算進來而且你就像剛剛講的大家來登記到底會不會登記其實不是你能夠預測的\n\n13\n00:05:00,112 --> 00:05:23,898\n萬一一次我就跟你講萬一98萬人你們的宣導太好了因為福利更好所以可能一半的人就來登記那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多那理論上是不可能嘛因為你就會排擠到其他預算所以我覺得這個應該你們都要先設想不是說現在這個法丟出來之後我們就先讓他法案過然後之後再來慢慢想這些問題應該要超前部署應該要先了解啦\n\n14\n00:05:24,938 --> 00:05:41,521\n可以嗎主委我們已經在盤點齁大概譬如說我們如果是年底十萬人進來十萬人來登記平埔園住民族那我們的這個好那主委你一直講十萬人我是不曉得這個依據怎麼來啦那如果變二十萬勒\n\n15\n00:05:43,253 --> 00:06:05,468\n所以我的意思就是說你一定要有一個依據嘛你只講十萬一定有你的依據但那個依據要讓大家知道你的推估是不是可行的還是推估是不是正確的然後還有就是再來就是好剛剛講的資源之外還有一個就是屬於政治的權利就是我們現在這個憲法增修條件第四條就是平原跟山原各三人的立委保障\n\n16\n00:06:05,808 --> 00:06:19,033\n好如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身份那到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民呢還是山地原住民還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢目前你們有沒有什麼規劃各位報告齁\n\n17\n00:06:21,990 --> 00:06:34,376\n這個有三顏平顏的席次這是憲法規定的那將來平埔原住民族他們說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的地位一定嘛因為你剛剛講的98萬人比60萬人還多這個修憲考量到修憲的現實就是修憲沒有那麼容易啦那所以呢所以你現在把平埔族證明完之後然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人那這個修憲更困難那你平埔族證明的意義是什麼\n\n18\n00:06:47,702 --> 00:07:05,138\n我們能做的先做譬如說以語言先救文化先救那你一下子要修憲沒有辦法現在爭取平埔族全英的這些人他們只希望的就是文化先做嗎相關的先做嗎他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎其他的我們三年內會修法來做\n\n19\n00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:23,410\n因為我們不可能一次全部都到位我想要提醒你的是我覺得不管你想要當然我們都知道不可能一步到位但是我覺得你們原民會還是要有充分的一個準備也就是說相關可能遇到像我剛講的說政治權利生活權利還有身份認定跟財務的負擔其實都是你們必須要整體考量的否則的話你貿然推動下去然後過了這個法之後後續的應該要怎麼來去處理其實\n\n20\n00:07:36,818 --> 00:07:46,801\n聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個還沒有一個完整的一個配套所以還是希望原民會這邊要有這樣子完整的配套再來談這個平補署我們這個草案的通過好嗎好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n787\t25763\t謝謝主席 我們請那個曾主委已經曾主委辛苦了 到備訓台了主委早 委員好主委 剛剛這個帳錄那個委員在問您的時候 您說平埔族有十個族群 請問是哪十個譬如說希拉雅啦 還有喀哈烏啦 巴塞啦還有道卡斯啦 大五龍喔還有巴布拉 還有馬卡道族還有這個巴布薩 還有凱達格蘭至少這九個\n30294\t47440\t對嗎?你剛講10個還有一個紅咬,紅咬張畫的紅咬好,我們看一下這平埔族,因為我大概有做了一個表格不過我這邊是做了9個啦所以這邊的話,您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去他哪一個沒有放進去?所以我想其實剛剛蛤?嘎哈烏沒有放進去\n59844\t85769\t就是少一個嘛對不對所以其實也是剛剛張宏魯委員特別講到事實上是不是有真的這十個而已還是還會有更多所以其實我們大概要討論的就是說平埔族現在到底他有多少族群他有多少的人口這可能都是我們要討論的重點那我們可以看到現在院版有一個這個平埔族平埔原住民族群的身份法的一個草案嘛\n86383\t94416\t那我们可以看到这其实依据宪判自第17号的判决主文清楚的指出其实原住民主其他的台湾原住民族\n94932\t121716\t及憲法增修條件第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段有規定保障的原住民族國家應該要維護他的語言跟文化那就這樣來看我們可以看到貴會的報告其實你引用的是黃大法官等協同意見書的說法認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠的事項與取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用而另以法律定定之\n122336\t146579\t那所以主委您的意思是這樣的立法是不是已經預設說平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益我跟委員報告現在的三眼平眼當然他們有目前在硬做的一個權益但是平埔原住民的族人一直以為就是說他現在一進來馬上就適用這個三眼跟平眼其實他們\n147617\t167579\t自己平埔原住民所遭遇到的一些多年來的所遭遇到他們所損失的有時候是延延超過三延跟平延當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源跟更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎如果照你剛剛這段話的說法\n169737\t198195\t過去他們欠缺 尤其是他們的語言文化的流失是特別的嚴重當然我們就要用比較特別不是適用於現在的這個原住民基本法更要用另外的專法讓他們就是說讓他們的潛力更能夠更好 更周圍這樣子好 那請問一下主委我們現在平埔族到底是多少人口內政部的統計內政部的統計就是說大概是會有98萬的人口\n199408\t219519\t這也是你5月22在這個備詢的時候提到的平埔族有98萬人那我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人那你剛剛提到的聽起來好像是平埔族的權益資源應該要更多因為他們過去犧牲太多那這樣的話我們以原住民現有的這個今年的年度預算是122億元\n221800\t250524\t是61萬人那如果你在把評估98萬人都納入的話請問一下主委你有沒有初步預算每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠好 更為報告我們講98萬不是不是今年年底一下子就98萬一定登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬好 那如果登記了一半我們都會有我們都會現在我們正在盤整就是說我們假設到今年年底10萬人來登記\n251224\t270931\t當然明年的預算當然就是必須那如果你預期10萬人那如果一次來了50萬人那你的預算要怎麼辦我跟委員報告這個預算當然我們要跟醫院裡面來做報告行政院來做報告當然國家的資源就必須要更多來預租來照顧那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算\n272931\t294888\t這個我想預算的部分原民會的預算就那麼多不可能說平埔原住民的這個主人進來我們的預算還是那麼多這樣的話所以今天我們大家其實比較質疑的就是說好現在我們平埔主要正名可是你原有的原民的預算就這麼多那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些的預算進來而且你就像剛剛講的大家來登記到底會不會登記其實不是你能夠預測的\n300112\t323898\t萬一一次我就跟你講萬一98萬人你們的宣導太好了因為福利更好所以可能一半的人就來登記那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多那理論上是不可能嘛因為你就會排擠到其他預算所以我覺得這個應該你們都要先設想不是說現在這個法丟出來之後我們就先讓他法案過然後之後再來慢慢想這些問題應該要超前部署應該要先了解啦\n324938\t341521\t可以嗎主委我們已經在盤點齁大概譬如說我們如果是年底十萬人進來十萬人來登記平埔園住民族那我們的這個好那主委你一直講十萬人我是不曉得這個依據怎麼來啦那如果變二十萬勒\n343253\t365468\t所以我的意思就是說你一定要有一個依據嘛你只講十萬一定有你的依據但那個依據要讓大家知道你的推估是不是可行的還是推估是不是正確的然後還有就是再來就是好剛剛講的資源之外還有一個就是屬於政治的權利就是我們現在這個憲法增修條件第四條就是平原跟山原各三人的立委保障\n365808\t379033\t好 如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身份那到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民呢還是山地原住民還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢目前你們有沒有什麼規劃各位報告齁\n381990\t394376\t這個有三顏平顏的席次這是憲法規定的那將來平埔原住民族他們說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的地位一定嘛 因為你剛剛講的98萬人比60萬人還多這個修憲 考量到修憲的現實就是修憲沒有那麼容易啦那所以呢所以你現在把平埔族證明完之後然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人那這個修憲更困難那你平埔族證明的意義是什麼\n407702\t425138\t我們能做的先做 譬如說以語言先救 文化先救那你一下子要修憲沒有辦法現在爭取平埔族全英的這些人他們只希望的就是文化先做嗎 相關的先做嗎他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎其他的我們三年內會修法來做\n427160\t443410\t因為我們不可能一次全部都到位我想要提醒你的是我覺得不管你想要當然我們都知道不可能一步到位但是我覺得你們原民會還是要有充分的一個準備也就是說相關可能遇到像我剛講的說政治權利生活權利還有身份認定跟財務的負擔其實都是你們必須要整體考量的否則的話你貿然推動下去然後過了這個法之後後續的應該要怎麼來去處理其實\n456818\t466801\t聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個還沒有一個完整的一個配套所以還是希望原民會這邊要有這樣子完整的配套再來談這個平補署我們這個草案的通過好嗎好謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請那個曾主委已經曾主委辛苦了 到備訓台了主委早 委員好主委 剛剛這個帳錄那個委員在問您的時候 您說平埔族有十個族群 請問是哪十個譬如說希拉雅啦 還有喀哈烏啦 巴塞啦還有道卡斯啦 大五龍喔還有巴布拉 還有馬卡道族還有這個巴布薩 還有凱達格蘭至少這九個\n對嗎?你剛講10個還有一個紅咬,紅咬張畫的紅咬好,我們看一下這平埔族,因為我大概有做了一個表格不過我這邊是做了9個啦所以這邊的話,您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去他哪一個沒有放進去?所以我想其實剛剛蛤?嘎哈烏沒有放進去\n就是少一個嘛對不對所以其實也是剛剛張宏魯委員特別講到事實上是不是有真的這十個而已還是還會有更多所以其實我們大概要討論的就是說平埔族現在到底他有多少族群他有多少的人口這可能都是我們要討論的重點那我們可以看到現在院版有一個這個平埔族平埔原住民族群的身份法的一個草案嘛\n那我们可以看到这其实依据宪判自第17号的判决主文清楚的指出其实原住民主其他的台湾原住民族\n及憲法增修條件第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段有規定保障的原住民族國家應該要維護他的語言跟文化那就這樣來看我們可以看到貴會的報告其實你引用的是黃大法官等協同意見書的說法認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠的事項與取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用而另以法律定定之\n那所以主委您的意思是這樣的立法是不是已經預設說平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益我跟委員報告現在的三眼平眼當然他們有目前在硬做的一個權益但是平埔原住民的族人一直以為就是說他現在一進來馬上就適用這個三眼跟平眼其實他們\n自己平埔原住民所遭遇到的一些多年來的所遭遇到他們所損失的有時候是延延超過三延跟平延當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源跟更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎如果照你剛剛這段話的說法\n過去他們欠缺 尤其是他們的語言文化的流失是特別的嚴重當然我們就要用比較特別不是適用於現在的這個原住民基本法更要用另外的專法讓他們就是說讓他們的潛力更能夠更好 更周圍這樣子好 那請問一下主委我們現在平埔族到底是多少人口內政部的統計內政部的統計就是說大概是會有98萬的人口\n這也是你5月22在這個備詢的時候提到的平埔族有98萬人那我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人那你剛剛提到的聽起來好像是平埔族的權益資源應該要更多因為他們過去犧牲太多那這樣的話我們以原住民現有的這個今年的年度預算是122億元\n是61萬人那如果你在把評估98萬人都納入的話請問一下主委你有沒有初步預算每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠好 更為報告我們講98萬不是不是今年年底一下子就98萬一定登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬好 那如果登記了一半我們都會有我們都會現在我們正在盤整就是說我們假設到今年年底10萬人來登記\n當然明年的預算當然就是必須那如果你預期10萬人那如果一次來了50萬人那你的預算要怎麼辦我跟委員報告這個預算當然我們要跟醫院裡面來做報告行政院來做報告當然國家的資源就必須要更多來預租來照顧那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算\n這個我想預算的部分原民會的預算就那麼多不可能說平埔原住民的這個主人進來我們的預算還是那麼多這樣的話所以今天我們大家其實比較質疑的就是說好現在我們平埔主要正名可是你原有的原民的預算就這麼多那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些的預算進來而且你就像剛剛講的大家來登記到底會不會登記其實不是你能夠預測的\n萬一一次我就跟你講萬一98萬人你們的宣導太好了因為福利更好所以可能一半的人就來登記那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多那理論上是不可能嘛因為你就會排擠到其他預算所以我覺得這個應該你們都要先設想不是說現在這個法丟出來之後我們就先讓他法案過然後之後再來慢慢想這些問題應該要超前部署應該要先了解啦\n可以嗎主委我們已經在盤點齁大概譬如說我們如果是年底十萬人進來十萬人來登記平埔園住民族那我們的這個好那主委你一直講十萬人我是不曉得這個依據怎麼來啦那如果變二十萬勒\n所以我的意思就是說你一定要有一個依據嘛你只講十萬一定有你的依據但那個依據要讓大家知道你的推估是不是可行的還是推估是不是正確的然後還有就是再來就是好剛剛講的資源之外還有一個就是屬於政治的權利就是我們現在這個憲法增修條件第四條就是平原跟山原各三人的立委保障\n好 如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身份那到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民呢還是山地原住民還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢目前你們有沒有什麼規劃各位報告齁\n這個有三顏平顏的席次這是憲法規定的那將來平埔原住民族他們說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的地位一定嘛 因為你剛剛講的98萬人比60萬人還多這個修憲 考量到修憲的現實就是修憲沒有那麼容易啦那所以呢所以你現在把平埔族證明完之後然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人那這個修憲更困難那你平埔族證明的意義是什麼\n我們能做的先做 譬如說以語言先救 文化先救那你一下子要修憲沒有辦法現在爭取平埔族全英的這些人他們只希望的就是文化先做嗎 相關的先做嗎他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎其他的我們三年內會修法來做\n因為我們不可能一次全部都到位我想要提醒你的是我覺得不管你想要當然我們都知道不可能一步到位但是我覺得你們原民會還是要有充分的一個準備也就是說相關可能遇到像我剛講的說政治權利生活權利還有身份認定跟財務的負擔其實都是你們必須要整體考量的否則的話你貿然推動下去然後過了這個法之後後續的應該要怎麼來去處理其實\n聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個還沒有一個完整的一個配套所以還是希望原民會這邊要有這樣子完整的配套再來談這個平補署我們這個草案的通過好嗎好謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.787 --> 00:25.763\n謝謝主席我們請那個曾主委已經曾主委辛苦了到備訓台了主委早委員好主委剛剛這個帳錄那個委員在問您的時候您說平埔族有十個族群請問是哪十個譬如說希拉雅啦還有喀哈烏啦巴塞啦還有道卡斯啦大五龍喔還有巴布拉還有馬卡道族還有這個巴布薩還有凱達格蘭至少這九個\n\n00:30.294 --> 00:47.440\n對嗎?你剛講10個還有一個紅咬,紅咬張畫的紅咬好,我們看一下這平埔族,因為我大概有做了一個表格不過我這邊是做了9個啦所以這邊的話,您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去他哪一個沒有放進去?所以我想其實剛剛蛤?嘎哈烏沒有放進去\n\n00:59.844 --> 01:25.769\n就是少一個嘛對不對所以其實也是剛剛張宏魯委員特別講到事實上是不是有真的這十個而已還是還會有更多所以其實我們大概要討論的就是說平埔族現在到底他有多少族群他有多少的人口這可能都是我們要討論的重點那我們可以看到現在院版有一個這個平埔族平埔原住民族群的身份法的一個草案嘛\n\n01:26.383 --> 01:34.416\n那我们可以看到这其实依据宪判自第17号的判决主文清楚的指出其实原住民主其他的台湾原住民族\n\n01:34.932 --> 02:01.716\n及憲法增修條件第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段有規定保障的原住民族國家應該要維護他的語言跟文化那就這樣來看我們可以看到貴會的報告其實你引用的是黃大法官等協同意見書的說法認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠的事項與取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用而另以法律定定之\n\n02:02.336 --> 02:26.579\n那所以主委您的意思是這樣的立法是不是已經預設說平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益我跟委員報告現在的三眼平眼當然他們有目前在硬做的一個權益但是平埔原住民的族人一直以為就是說他現在一進來馬上就適用這個三眼跟平眼其實他們\n\n02:27.617 --> 02:47.579\n自己平埔原住民所遭遇到的一些多年來的所遭遇到他們所損失的有時候是延延超過三延跟平延當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源跟更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎如果照你剛剛這段話的說法\n\n02:49.737 --> 03:18.195\n過去他們欠缺尤其是他們的語言文化的流失是特別的嚴重當然我們就要用比較特別不是適用於現在的這個原住民基本法更要用另外的專法讓他們就是說讓他們的潛力更能夠更好更周圍這樣子好那請問一下主委我們現在平埔族到底是多少人口內政部的統計內政部的統計就是說大概是會有98萬的人口\n\n03:19.408 --> 03:39.519\n這也是你5月22在這個備詢的時候提到的平埔族有98萬人那我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人那你剛剛提到的聽起來好像是平埔族的權益資源應該要更多因為他們過去犧牲太多那這樣的話我們以原住民現有的這個今年的年度預算是122億元\n\n03:41.800 --> 04:10.524\n是61萬人那如果你在把評估98萬人都納入的話請問一下主委你有沒有初步預算每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠好更為報告我們講98萬不是不是今年年底一下子就98萬一定登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬好那如果登記了一半我們都會有我們都會現在我們正在盤整就是說我們假設到今年年底10萬人來登記\n\n04:11.224 --> 04:30.931\n當然明年的預算當然就是必須那如果你預期10萬人那如果一次來了50萬人那你的預算要怎麼辦我跟委員報告這個預算當然我們要跟醫院裡面來做報告行政院來做報告當然國家的資源就必須要更多來預租來照顧那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算\n\n04:32.931 --> 04:54.888\n這個我想預算的部分原民會的預算就那麼多不可能說平埔原住民的這個主人進來我們的預算還是那麼多這樣的話所以今天我們大家其實比較質疑的就是說好現在我們平埔主要正名可是你原有的原民的預算就這麼多那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些的預算進來而且你就像剛剛講的大家來登記到底會不會登記其實不是你能夠預測的\n\n05:00.112 --> 05:23.898\n萬一一次我就跟你講萬一98萬人你們的宣導太好了因為福利更好所以可能一半的人就來登記那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多那理論上是不可能嘛因為你就會排擠到其他預算所以我覺得這個應該你們都要先設想不是說現在這個法丟出來之後我們就先讓他法案過然後之後再來慢慢想這些問題應該要超前部署應該要先了解啦\n\n05:24.938 --> 05:41.521\n可以嗎主委我們已經在盤點齁大概譬如說我們如果是年底十萬人進來十萬人來登記平埔園住民族那我們的這個好那主委你一直講十萬人我是不曉得這個依據怎麼來啦那如果變二十萬勒\n\n05:43.253 --> 06:05.468\n所以我的意思就是說你一定要有一個依據嘛你只講十萬一定有你的依據但那個依據要讓大家知道你的推估是不是可行的還是推估是不是正確的然後還有就是再來就是好剛剛講的資源之外還有一個就是屬於政治的權利就是我們現在這個憲法增修條件第四條就是平原跟山原各三人的立委保障\n\n06:05.808 --> 06:19.033\n好如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身份那到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民呢還是山地原住民還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢目前你們有沒有什麼規劃各位報告齁\n\n06:21.990 --> 06:34.376\n這個有三顏平顏的席次這是憲法規定的那將來平埔原住民族他們說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的地位一定嘛因為你剛剛講的98萬人比60萬人還多這個修憲考量到修憲的現實就是修憲沒有那麼容易啦那所以呢所以你現在把平埔族證明完之後然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人那這個修憲更困難那你平埔族證明的意義是什麼\n\n06:47.702 --> 07:05.138\n我們能做的先做譬如說以語言先救文化先救那你一下子要修憲沒有辦法現在爭取平埔族全英的這些人他們只希望的就是文化先做嗎相關的先做嗎他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎其他的我們三年內會修法來做\n\n07:07.160 --> 07:23.410\n因為我們不可能一次全部都到位我想要提醒你的是我覺得不管你想要當然我們都知道不可能一步到位但是我覺得你們原民會還是要有充分的一個準備也就是說相關可能遇到像我剛講的說政治權利生活權利還有身份認定跟財務的負擔其實都是你們必須要整體考量的否則的話你貿然推動下去然後過了這個法之後後續的應該要怎麼來去處理其實\n\n07:36.818 --> 07:46.801\n聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個還沒有一個完整的一個配套所以還是希望原民會這邊要有這樣子完整的配套再來談這個平補署我們這個草案的通過好嗎好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.787,"end":25.763,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請那個曾主委已經曾主委辛苦了 到備訓台了主委早 委員好主委 剛剛這個帳錄那個委員在問您的時候 您說平埔族有十個族群 請問是哪十個譬如說希拉雅啦 還有喀哈烏啦 巴塞啦還有道卡斯啦 大五龍喔還有巴布拉 還有馬卡道族還有這個巴布薩 還有凱達格蘭至少這九個"},{"start":30.294,"end":47.44,"text":"對嗎?你剛講10個還有一個紅咬,紅咬張畫的紅咬好,我們看一下這平埔族,因為我大概有做了一個表格不過我這邊是做了9個啦所以這邊的話,您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去他哪一個沒有放進去?所以我想其實剛剛蛤?嘎哈烏沒有放進去"},{"start":59.844,"end":85.769,"text":"就是少一個嘛對不對所以其實也是剛剛張宏魯委員特別講到事實上是不是有真的這十個而已還是還會有更多所以其實我們大概要討論的就是說平埔族現在到底他有多少族群他有多少的人口這可能都是我們要討論的重點那我們可以看到現在院版有一個這個平埔族平埔原住民族群的身份法的一個草案嘛"},{"start":86.383,"end":94.416,"text":"那我们可以看到这其实依据宪判自第17号的判决主文清楚的指出其实原住民主其他的台湾原住民族"},{"start":94.932,"end":121.716,"text":"及憲法增修條件第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段有規定保障的原住民族國家應該要維護他的語言跟文化那就這樣來看我們可以看到貴會的報告其實你引用的是黃大法官等協同意見書的說法認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠的事項與取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用而另以法律定定之"},{"start":122.336,"end":146.579,"text":"那所以主委您的意思是這樣的立法是不是已經預設說平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益我跟委員報告現在的三眼平眼當然他們有目前在硬做的一個權益但是平埔原住民的族人一直以為就是說他現在一進來馬上就適用這個三眼跟平眼其實他們"},{"start":147.617,"end":167.579,"text":"自己平埔原住民所遭遇到的一些多年來的所遭遇到他們所損失的有時候是延延超過三延跟平延當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源跟更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎如果照你剛剛這段話的說法"},{"start":169.737,"end":198.195,"text":"過去他們欠缺 尤其是他們的語言文化的流失是特別的嚴重當然我們就要用比較特別不是適用於現在的這個原住民基本法更要用另外的專法讓他們就是說讓他們的潛力更能夠更好 更周圍這樣子好 那請問一下主委我們現在平埔族到底是多少人口內政部的統計內政部的統計就是說大概是會有98萬的人口"},{"start":199.408,"end":219.519,"text":"這也是你5月22在這個備詢的時候提到的平埔族有98萬人那我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人那你剛剛提到的聽起來好像是平埔族的權益資源應該要更多因為他們過去犧牲太多那這樣的話我們以原住民現有的這個今年的年度預算是122億元"},{"start":221.8,"end":250.524,"text":"是61萬人那如果你在把評估98萬人都納入的話請問一下主委你有沒有初步預算每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠好 更為報告我們講98萬不是不是今年年底一下子就98萬一定登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬好 那如果登記了一半我們都會有我們都會現在我們正在盤整就是說我們假設到今年年底10萬人來登記"},{"start":251.224,"end":270.931,"text":"當然明年的預算當然就是必須那如果你預期10萬人那如果一次來了50萬人那你的預算要怎麼辦我跟委員報告這個預算當然我們要跟醫院裡面來做報告行政院來做報告當然國家的資源就必須要更多來預租來照顧那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算"},{"start":272.931,"end":294.888,"text":"這個我想預算的部分原民會的預算就那麼多不可能說平埔原住民的這個主人進來我們的預算還是那麼多這樣的話所以今天我們大家其實比較質疑的就是說好現在我們平埔主要正名可是你原有的原民的預算就這麼多那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些的預算進來而且你就像剛剛講的大家來登記到底會不會登記其實不是你能夠預測的"},{"start":300.112,"end":323.898,"text":"萬一一次我就跟你講萬一98萬人你們的宣導太好了因為福利更好所以可能一半的人就來登記那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多那理論上是不可能嘛因為你就會排擠到其他預算所以我覺得這個應該你們都要先設想不是說現在這個法丟出來之後我們就先讓他法案過然後之後再來慢慢想這些問題應該要超前部署應該要先了解啦"},{"start":324.938,"end":341.521,"text":"可以嗎主委我們已經在盤點齁大概譬如說我們如果是年底十萬人進來十萬人來登記平埔園住民族那我們的這個好那主委你一直講十萬人我是不曉得這個依據怎麼來啦那如果變二十萬勒"},{"start":343.253,"end":365.468,"text":"所以我的意思就是說你一定要有一個依據嘛你只講十萬一定有你的依據但那個依據要讓大家知道你的推估是不是可行的還是推估是不是正確的然後還有就是再來就是好剛剛講的資源之外還有一個就是屬於政治的權利就是我們現在這個憲法增修條件第四條就是平原跟山原各三人的立委保障"},{"start":365.808,"end":379.033,"text":"好 如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身份那到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民呢還是山地原住民還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢目前你們有沒有什麼規劃各位報告齁"},{"start":381.99,"end":394.376,"text":"這個有三顏平顏的席次這是憲法規定的那將來平埔原住民族他們說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的地位一定嘛 因為你剛剛講的98萬人比60萬人還多這個修憲 考量到修憲的現實就是修憲沒有那麼容易啦那所以呢所以你現在把平埔族證明完之後然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人那這個修憲更困難那你平埔族證明的意義是什麼"},{"start":407.702,"end":425.138,"text":"我們能做的先做 譬如說以語言先救 文化先救那你一下子要修憲沒有辦法現在爭取平埔族全英的這些人他們只希望的就是文化先做嗎 相關的先做嗎他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎其他的我們三年內會修法來做"},{"start":427.16,"end":443.41,"text":"因為我們不可能一次全部都到位我想要提醒你的是我覺得不管你想要當然我們都知道不可能一步到位但是我覺得你們原民會還是要有充分的一個準備也就是說相關可能遇到像我剛講的說政治權利生活權利還有身份認定跟財務的負擔其實都是你們必須要整體考量的否則的話你貿然推動下去然後過了這個法之後後續的應該要怎麼來去處理其實"},{"start":456.818,"end":466.801,"text":"聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個還沒有一個完整的一個配套所以還是希望原民會這邊要有這樣子完整的配套再來談這個平補署我們這個草案的通過好嗎好謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":321,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時58分）謝謝主席，我們請……曾主委已經到備詢台了。"],["主席：曾主委辛苦了。"],["許委員宇甄：主委早。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，剛剛張宏陸委員問您的時候，您說平埔族有10個族群，請問是哪10個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：比如西拉雅族、噶哈巫族、巴宰族、道卡斯族、大武壠族、拍瀑拉族、馬卡道族、巴布薩族還有凱達格蘭族，至少這9個。"],["許委員宇甄：對，你剛剛講10個。"],["曾主任委員智勇：還有一個洪雅，彰化的洪雅族。"],["許委員宇甄：好。我們看一下這些平埔族，我有做了一個表格，不過我這邊做了9個，所以這邊您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去？"],["曾主任委員智勇：噶哈巫族沒有放進去。"],["許委員宇甄：就是少一個嘛，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，少一個。"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以剛剛張宏陸委員也特別講到，事實上是不是只有真的這10個而已，還是還會有更多？我們大概要討論的就是，平埔族現在到底有多少族群、有多少的人口？這可能都是我們要討論的重點。","我們可以看到現在院版有一個平埔原住民族群身分法的草案，我們可以看到，依據憲判字第17號判決的判決主文清楚地指出，憲法增修條文第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段規定所保障之原住民族，國家應該維護他的語言跟文化。我們可以看到，貴會的報告其實是引用黃大法官等協同意見書的說法，認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠事項於取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用，而另以法律訂定之。所以主委的意思是，這樣的立法是不是已經預設平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，現在的山原、平原當然有目前在運作的權益，但是平埔原住民族人一直以為他們現在一進來馬上就適用山原跟平原，其實平埔原住民自己多年來所遭遇到的損失有時候是遠遠超過山原跟平原，當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民基本法……"],["許委員宇甄：所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源、更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎？如果照你剛剛這段話的說法。"],["曾主任委員智勇：過去他們欠缺……尤其他們的語言、文化流失特別嚴重，當然我們就要用比較特別的方式，不是適用現在的原住民基本法，更要用另外的專法讓他們的權利能夠更好、更周延。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下主委，我們現在的平埔族到底是多少人口？"],["曾主任委員智勇：依據內政部的統計，大概會有98萬的人口。"],["許委員宇甄：對，這也是你在5月22日備詢時提到的，平埔族有98萬人，而我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人。依你剛剛提到的，聽起來好像是平埔族的權益、資源應該要更多，因為他們過去犧牲太多？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣的話，我們以原住民今年現有的年度預算122億元來看，共有61萬人，如果把平埔族的98萬人都納入的話，請問一下主委，你有沒有初步預估每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們講98萬不是今年年底一下子就98萬，登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬。"],["許委員宇甄：好，如果登記了一半？"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在我們正在盤整，我們假設到今年年底有10萬人來登記，明年的預算當然就是……"],["許委員宇甄：你預期10萬人，如果一次來了50萬人，那你的預算要怎麼辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會。我跟委員報告，這個預算我們要跟行政院報告，國家的資源當然就必須要更多來挹注、來照顧。"],["許委員宇甄：那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我想預算的部分，原民會的預算就那麼多，不可能說平埔原住民族人進來之後，我們的預算還是那麼多，這樣沒有辦法照顧。"],["許委員宇甄：所以今天我們大家比較質疑的是，現在平埔族要正名，可是你們原有的原民預算就這麼多，那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些預算進來？而且就像你剛剛講的，要由大家來登記，到底有多少人會登記其實不是你能夠預測的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我就跟你講，萬一98萬人當中因為你們宣導太好了、福利更好，所以可能一半的人都來登記，那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多，理論上是不可能，因為你會排擠到其他預算，所以我覺得這個你們應該都要先設想好，不是現在的法丟出來之後，我們就先讓法案通過，之後再來慢慢想這些問題，應該要超前部署、應該要先了解！可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。我們已經在盤點，如果年底有10萬人來登記平埔原住民族，我們的……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，你一直講10萬人，我不曉得這個依據怎麼來，如果變20萬呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對啊。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我的意思是，你一定要有一個依據嘛，你一直講10萬一定有你的依據，但那個依據要讓大家知道，你的推估是不是可行的、推估是不是正確的？","再來，除了剛剛講的資源之外，還有一個是屬於政治的權利，就是憲法增修條例第四條規定平原跟山原各三人的立委保障，如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身分，到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民、山地原住民，還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢？目前你們有沒有什麼規劃？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，山原、平原的席次是憲法規定的，將來平埔原住民族說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的立委……"],["許委員宇甄：一定嘛、一定會，你剛剛講的98萬人比61萬人還多。"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個要修憲！考慮到修憲的現實，修憲沒有那麼容易……"],["許委員宇甄：所以呢？你現在把平埔族正名完之後，然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人、修憲更困難，那平埔族正名的意義是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們能做的先做，譬如說語言先救、文化先救，而一下子要修憲的話沒有辦法！"],["許委員宇甄：那你覺得現在爭取平埔族權益的這些人，他們只希望文化先做、相關的先做嗎？他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：其他的我們3年內會修法來做，因為我們不可能一次全部都到位。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我想要提醒你的是，當然我們都知道不可能一步到位，但是我覺得你們原民會還是應該要有充分的準備，也就是相關可能遇到的，像我剛剛講的政治權利、生活權利、身分認定跟財務負擔，其實都是你們必須要整體考量的，否則你貿然推動下去、過了這個法之後，後續的應該要怎麼處理？其實聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個完整的配套，所以還是希望原民會要有完整的配套，再來談平埔族草案的通過，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","下一位請高金素梅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","張智倫","蘇巧慧","丁學忠"],"page_start":137,"meetingDate":["2025-06-30"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平\n埔原住民族群身分法草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1146401_00003"}}}