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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,947 --> 00:00:30,107\n好辛苦了主委主委有請今天我要感謝這個牛許廷召委這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族的專法我在立法院這麼長一段時間只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案從來沒有行政院版本都是立法委員的版本而這是破天荒以來有行政院他主動提出的原住民族專法\n\n2\n00:00:31,383 --> 00:00:49,844\n那麼執政黨自己呢不願意把它優先處理如果不是我一再拜託我們今天的牛召偉排案的話我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員裡面來順利審查這是我第一個要講的我心裡面的感觸\n\n3\n00:00:51,185 --> 00:01:13,794\n那麼今天我們審查了這部平埔專法的立法是因為憲判自第17號的判決憲法法庭的判決它有三大要求第一個要求是三年之內修正原住民身份法或者是另訂特別法期限是今年的10月27號很快就要到了\n\n4\n00:01:14,474 --> 00:01:31,896\n二明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身份登記第三針對平埔族群的權力保障要考慮它的歷史背景還有資源的分配並且要以法律明定但是我們今天看到的草案\n\n5\n00:01:32,777 --> 00:01:47,368\n真的是有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎?真的是有把當時做市長的賴清德市長現在已經是總統的承諾有放在這裡嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:48,729 --> 00:02:14,067\n我們再來看一下,不僅僅是賴清德喔早在2016年的時候,蔡英文總統她也就公開承諾了她說請尊重平埔族群自我認同權要歸還原住民族的身份以及完整的民族權利而去年圓明會你們報告上也講你們會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身份法\n\n7\n00:02:14,767 --> 00:02:41,764\n可是我們現在的這個草案既沒有修原住民身份法也沒有一次歸還身份跟權利然後呢還要把平埔族群另立專法然後把問題切割出去這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊所以呢我們看到有非常多的平埔族的族人抗議啊雖然\n\n8\n00:02:43,425 --> 00:03:09,738\n主委您說你開了很多場的會議也跟大家說明了很多但是我們要看一下更誇張的是第23條的條文23條的條文寫說政府還要再花三年來嚴寧保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等的基本權利的配套措施\n\n9\n00:03:10,658 --> 00:03:25,078\n我们看一下宪法判决已经是三年前的事了政府花了三年才提出法案结果具体的权利还要再拖三年而这样的立法节奏\n\n10\n00:03:26,219 --> 00:03:40,651\n講白了就是一拖再拖這樣讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎然後在這裡我要請問一下主委三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎請問跟委員報告我們是希望在三年內\n\n11\n00:03:46,502 --> 00:04:02,297\n能夠全部都來做到但是有的這個法例其實不用多三年我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了有一些是當然我們是期待希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法例我們都希望能夠把它訂好是這樣\n\n12\n00:04:03,217 --> 00:04:23,534\n好啦我們拭目以待啦我是非常懷疑啦因為呢就連原基法以及明文保障的權利其實呢你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人就在上週最高行政法院112年度上至第487號判決講得非常的清楚說什麼呢\n\n13\n00:04:27,657 --> 00:04:56,726\n原基法第21條裡面原住民族的傳統領域的土地包括公有地也包括私有地原民會諸位聽清楚了嗎也看清楚了嗎這個不是模糊地帶喔這個是我們的法律明文規定啊而且呢是最高行政法院已經說的所以呢根本就不需要修法\n\n14\n00:04:57,466 --> 00:05:12,324\n自從106年原住民族土地或者部落範圍土地劃設辦法公布以來原民會你們就配合行政院一再的推卸責任說法律沒有授權私有地不可以處理\n\n15\n00:05:13,365 --> 00:05:16,767\n我認為你們真的一直長期以來在誤導社會誤導各部會我認為這是惡意的來詮釋法律這也嚴重的傷害到了原住民族的土地權利更可惡的是什麼竟然我們有執政黨的立法委員尤其是原住民的立法委員刻意的混淆視聽然後帶風向說這個要修法才能夠處理\n\n16\n00:05:40,040 --> 00:06:06,425\n我認為呢這是站在殖民者的立場講話為了政治的利益然後犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益這讓我憤怒啊明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了再講一遍原基法裡面第21條說的原住民族傳統領域土地包括公有地也包括私有地請問一下園民會這還需要修法嗎\n\n17\n00:06:09,039 --> 00:06:18,884\n我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對這樣的一個個案的裁判這不是個案他的明文規定的字已經寫了原住民的傳統領域包括不僅僅是公有地也包括私有地\n\n18\n00:06:27,788 --> 00:06:54,107\n我再說一下其他部會更得寸進尺像能源局呢在執政黨委員的要求之下他草率推出什麼地熱探勘指引這個明目張膽的要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面這也擺明了為開發業者護航要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務而\n\n19\n00:06:55,928 --> 00:06:59,830\n我自己出生的地方和平區也陳情抗議我們的台電在傳統領域之內開發居然用什麼這是私有地為藉口完全就不尊重部落也漠視我們諮商同意權\n\n20\n00:07:13,339 --> 00:07:27,360\n現在呢法院已經判決出來了請問主委法院再講一遍法院說原基法的第21條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地您支持嗎\n\n21\n00:07:29,281 --> 00:07:47,466\n我想委員謝謝我們會跟這個中央地方我們一起來做這個通話性的檢討這就是我現在要告訴您的我要請原民會你們立刻修正韓式然後新聞各部會告訴就在上週\n\n22\n00:07:48,846 --> 00:08:07,026\n我們的這個法院的判決說什麼原住民的傳統領域土地不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權可以嗎可以好謝謝好繼續我要問你最重要的問題了現在已經幾月了主委\n\n23\n00:08:09,127 --> 00:08:20,943\n6月底原住民族要發禁法補償大概是幾月份會發最快9月1號開始發放最快9月1號你現在已經不到兩個月了吧\n\n24\n00:08:22,284 --> 00:08:39,898\n不到兩個月吧我知道呢原民會你們三月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算然後補足行政院掃編的23.9億元的進法補償可是呢行政院一直沒有正式回應您對不對\n\n25\n00:08:40,979 --> 00:08:43,841\n黃國昌主席有質詢他質詢副主席長副主席長已經公開的在立法院回應他了一兩個月之內就會提案請問主委這是真的嗎?您知道這件事情嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:04,378 --> 00:09:29,207\n因為我們已經很早就辦就希望能夠我知道啦你三月啊所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席執行的時候我們的副主計長告訴他一直逼問之下才說這一兩個月之內就會提案所以主委這是我提醒您的這也是我告訴您的我希望呢您趕快跟主計長說黃國昌召委\n\n27\n00:09:33,035 --> 00:09:59,490\n在這邊質詢副主計長已經答應他一兩個月之內會提案可以嗎請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體的交代如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算把23.9億不足的進法補償給原住民的話這會造成很大的困擾第一個\n\n28\n00:10:00,973 --> 00:10:03,355\n有人說如果領不到一公頃六萬塊他就會離開立法院\n\n29\n00:10:07,979 --> 00:10:31,260\n第二個行政院的卓榮泰這個院長他親自在草野協商的時候在行政院簽名簽字寫說要用追加預算這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話那麼\n\n30\n00:10:32,645 --> 00:10:54,591\n我們的族人還要相信誰我們的國人還要相信誰第三個我要提醒您如果不是用追加預算而用我們的綜合發展基金的話這件事情知識體大為什麼綜合發展基金主委你清楚知道已經要破產了對不對\n\n31\n00:10:56,021 --> 00:11:18,669\n如果在破產的狀況還要原民會去找出這23.9億無非就是要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做甚至於要讓主委您自己擠破頭找出23.9億來補足這個缺口這個委屈原民會不能夠吞下去啊\n\n32\n00:11:19,589 --> 00:11:36,021\n這個委屈我們全國的原住民的族人也不能夠推下去啊因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案必須要用公務預算來補所以這是非常清楚的\n\n33\n00:11:36,681 --> 00:12:00,454\n我們的行政院我們的國家不能夠帶頭違法已經違法過一次了不能夠再有第二次主委這是我在這裡衷心的提醒你真是非常的重要好嗎好最後我要再提醒你的是我認為原民會你們真的非常的努力了但是我要坦白講你們並沒有能力\n\n34\n00:12:01,374 --> 00:12:29,806\n因為為什麼決策權全部都在行政院那我再講一下目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡不是只有園民會啊主委您知道還有文化部還有教育部還有衛福部還有經濟部等等不同的部會包括最重要的未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後他的選舉制度\n\n35\n00:12:31,135 --> 00:12:37,417\n他的預算夠不夠按照現在原名婚禮預算夠嗎你認為不夠對不對你剛剛一直告訴我們說第一次這個登記可能會有10萬人光是登記這個費用就要錢了耶請問一下行政院有給你嗎這個登記當然我們也會拜託內政部護證系統他們來協助我們給你了嗎有答應了嗎目前還沒有我們還在申請好所以您看\n\n36\n00:12:59,722 --> 00:13:17,240\n光是不管是賴清德不管是我們的蔡英文嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭該面對的問題總是沒有面對所以呢現在請問一下園民會你有整合協調的能力嗎\n\n37\n00:13:19,144 --> 00:13:45,325\n有一些我們該拜託的我們當然會拜託其他部會但是該我們做的齁我們盡量就是都已經就希望準備好了齁就是希望我們馬上要成立就是審議會要審他們的民主別這個我們也都主委這不是你能做的但是我剛剛說的很清楚您不能做的非常多對吧誠實的說嘛齁好所以我認為行政院呢必須要出面\n\n38\n00:13:46,570 --> 00:14:03,002\n負起這個責任因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見因為這是賴清德當時做台南市長的時候答應了平埔族人的所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情他就必須要出面來負起總責統籌協調各部會\n\n39\n00:14:06,624 --> 00:14:25,009\n從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償的平埔族群權利保障體系不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布不要一等\n\n40\n00:14:25,749 --> 00:14:43,919\n又再等三年一直在拖延下去平衡族群的基本權利還有法律地位不能夠再被推來推去無限期的延後所以今天我會要求園民會一周內提出具體的書面回應我會提這個書面的這個草案\n\n41\n00:14:47,541 --> 00:15:06,404\n所以希望主委這件事情很嚴重我剛剛替您說了很多話我認為園民會包括您一直以來都很認真都很努力但是你們真的都沒有決策能力今天很重要的幾點第一點平埔族群的這些回復權利不是你園民會一個人的事情\n\n42\n00:15:07,245 --> 00:15:29,481\n必須要行政院統籌第二件事情原住民族的進法補償要依法用公務預算公務預算在今年沒有補足的麻煩用追加預算這也是卓榮泰說的承諾好不好第三你要行文給各部會我們的傳統領域的土地不是只有公有土地包括私有地\n\n43\n00:15:29,961 --> 00:15:51,365\n要不然的話原民會你們要處理的案子就會非常非常的多我們人力已經不足了在處理這些事情的話會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情好嗎好請主委擔起這個責任來謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝高金素美委員按剛剛宣告休息三分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3947\t30107\t好 辛苦了主委主委有請今天我要感謝這個牛許廷召委這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族的專法我在立法院這麼長一段時間只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案從來沒有行政院版本都是立法委員的版本而這是破天荒以來有行政院他主動提出的原住民族專法\n31383\t49844\t那麼執政黨自己呢 不願意把它優先處理如果不是我一再拜託我們今天的牛召偉排案的話我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員裡面來順利審查這是我第一個要講的 我心裡面的感觸\n51185\t73794\t那麼今天我們審查了這部平埔專法的立法是因為憲判自第17號的判決憲法法庭的判決它有三大要求第一個要求是三年之內修正原住民身份法或者是另訂特別法期限是今年的10月27號很快就要到了\n74474\t91896\t二 明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身份登記第三 針對平埔族群的權力保障要考慮它的歷史背景還有資源的分配並且要以法律明定但是我們今天看到的草案\n92777\t107368\t真的是有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎?真的是有把當時做市長的賴清德市長現在已經是總統的承諾有放在這裡嗎?\n108729\t134067\t我們再來看一下,不僅僅是賴清德喔早在2016年的時候,蔡英文總統她也就公開承諾了她說請尊重平埔族群自我認同權要歸還原住民族的身份以及完整的民族權利而去年圓明會你們報告上也講你們會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身份法\n134767\t161764\t可是我們現在的這個草案既沒有修原住民身份法也沒有一次歸還身份跟權利然後呢還要把平埔族群另立專法然後把問題切割出去這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊所以呢我們看到有非常多的平埔族的族人抗議啊雖然\n163425\t189738\t主委您說你開了很多場的會議也跟大家說明了很多但是我們要看一下更誇張的是第23條的條文23條的條文寫說政府還要再花三年來嚴寧保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等的基本權利的配套措施\n190658\t205078\t我们看一下宪法判决已经是三年前的事了政府花了三年才提出法案结果具体的权利还要再拖三年而这样的立法节奏\n206219\t220651\t講白了就是一拖再拖這樣讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎然後在這裡我要請問一下主委三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎請問跟委員報告我們是希望在三年內\n226502\t242297\t能夠全部都來做到但是有的這個法例其實不用多三年我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了有一些是當然我們是期待希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法例我們都希望能夠把它訂好是這樣\n243217\t263534\t好啦 我們拭目以待啦 我是非常懷疑啦因為呢 就連原基法以及明文保障的權利其實呢 你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人就在上週 最高行政法院112年度上至第487號判決講得非常的清楚 說什麼呢\n267657\t296726\t原基法第21條裡面原住民族的傳統領域的土地包括公有地也包括私有地原民會 諸位聽清楚了嗎也看清楚了嗎這個不是模糊地帶喔這個是我們的法律明文規定啊而且呢是最高行政法院已經說的所以呢根本就不需要修法\n297466\t312324\t自從106年原住民族土地或者部落範圍土地劃設辦法公布以來原民會你們就配合行政院一再的推卸責任說法律沒有授權私有地不可以處理\n313365\t316767\t我認為你們真的一直長期以來在誤導社會誤導各部會我認為這是惡意的來詮釋法律這也嚴重的傷害到了原住民族的土地權利更可惡的是什麼竟然我們有執政黨的立法委員尤其是原住民的立法委員刻意的混淆視聽然後帶風向說這個要修法才能夠處理\n340040\t366425\t我認為呢這是站在殖民者的立場講話為了政治的利益然後犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益這讓我憤怒啊明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了再講一遍原基法裡面第21條說的原住民族傳統領域土地包括公有地也包括私有地請問一下園民會這還需要修法嗎\n369039\t378884\t我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對這樣的一個個案的裁判這不是個案 他的明文規定的字已經寫了原住民的傳統領域包括不僅僅是公有地也包括私有地\n387788\t414107\t我再說一下其他部會更得寸進尺像能源局呢在執政黨委員的要求之下他草率推出什麼地熱探勘指引這個明目張膽的要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面這也擺明了為開發業者護航要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務而\n415928\t419830\t我自己出生的地方和平區也陳情抗議我們的台電在傳統領域之內開發居然用什麼這是私有地為藉口完全就不尊重部落也漠視我們諮商同意權\n433339\t447360\t現在呢法院已經判決出來了請問主委法院再講一遍法院說原基法的第21條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地您支持嗎\n449281\t467466\t我想委員謝謝我們會跟這個中央地方我們一起來做這個通話性的檢討這就是我現在要告訴您的我要請原民會你們立刻修正韓式然後新聞各部會告訴就在上週\n468846\t487026\t我們的這個法院的判決說什麼原住民的傳統領域土地不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權可以嗎可以好謝謝好繼續我要問你最重要的問題了現在已經幾月了主委\n489127\t500943\t6月底原住民族要發禁法補償大概是幾月份會發最快9月1號開始發放最快9月1號你現在已經不到兩個月了吧\n502284\t519898\t不到兩個月吧 我知道呢 原民會你們三月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算然後補足行政院掃編的23.9億元的進法補償可是呢 行政院一直沒有正式回應您 對不對\n520979\t523841\t黃國昌主席有質詢他質詢副主席長副主席長已經公開的在立法院回應他了一兩個月之內就會提案請問主委這是真的嗎?您知道這件事情嗎?\n544378\t569207\t因為我們已經很早就辦就希望能夠我知道啦你三月啊所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席執行的時候我們的副主計長告訴他一直逼問之下才說這一兩個月之內就會提案所以主委這是我提醒您的這也是我告訴您的我希望呢您趕快跟主計長說黃國昌召委\n573035\t599490\t在這邊質詢副主計長已經答應他一兩個月之內會提案可以嗎請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體的交代如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算把23.9億不足的進法補償給原住民的話這會造成很大的困擾第一個\n600973\t603355\t有人說如果領不到一公頃六萬塊他就會離開立法院\n607979\t631260\t第二個行政院的卓榮泰這個院長他親自在草野協商的時候在行政院簽名簽字寫說要用追加預算這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話那麼\n632645\t654591\t我們的族人還要相信誰我們的國人還要相信誰第三個我要提醒您如果不是用追加預算而用我們的綜合發展基金的話這件事情知識體大為什麼綜合發展基金主委你清楚知道已經要破產了對不對\n656021\t678669\t如果在破產的狀況還要原民會去找出這23.9億無非就是要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做甚至於要讓主委您自己擠破頭找出23.9億來補足這個缺口這個委屈原民會不能夠吞下去啊\n679589\t696021\t這個委屈我們全國的原住民的族人也不能夠推下去啊因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案必須要用公務預算來補所以這是非常清楚的\n696681\t720454\t我們的行政院我們的國家不能夠帶頭違法已經違法過一次了不能夠再有第二次主委這是我在這裡衷心的提醒你真是非常的重要好嗎好最後我要再提醒你的是我認為原民會你們真的非常的努力了但是我要坦白講你們並沒有能力\n721374\t749806\t因為為什麼決策權全部都在行政院那我再講一下目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡不是只有園民會啊主委您知道還有文化部還有教育部還有衛福部還有經濟部等等不同的部會包括最重要的未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後他的選舉制度\n751135\t757417\t他的預算夠不夠 按照現在原名婚禮預算夠嗎你認為不夠對不對 你剛剛一直告訴我們說第一次這個登記可能會有10萬人光是登記這個費用就要錢了耶請問一下行政院有給你嗎這個登記當然我們也會拜託內政部護證系統他們來協助我們給你了嗎 有答應了嗎目前還沒有 我們還在申請好 所以您看\n779722\t797240\t光是不管是賴清德不管是我們的蔡英文嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭該面對的問題總是沒有面對所以呢現在請問一下園民會你有整合協調的能力嗎\n799144\t825325\t有一些我們該拜託的我們當然會拜託其他部會但是該我們做的齁我們盡量就是都已經就希望準備好了齁就是希望我們馬上要成立就是審議會要審他們的民主別這個我們也都主委這不是你能做的但是我剛剛說的很清楚您不能做的非常多對吧誠實的說嘛齁好所以我認為行政院呢必須要出面\n826570\t843002\t負起這個責任因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見因為這是賴清德當時做台南市長的時候答應了平埔族人的所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情他就必須要出面來負起總責統籌協調各部會\n846624\t865009\t從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償的平埔族群權利保障體系不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布不要一等\n865749\t883919\t又再等三年 一直在拖延下去平衡族群的基本權利還有法律地位不能夠再被推來推去無限期的延後所以今天我會要求園民會一周內提出具體的書面回應我會提這個書面的這個草案\n887541\t906404\t所以希望 主委 這件事情很嚴重我剛剛替您說了很多話我認為 園民會包括您一直以來都很認真 都很努力但是你們真的都沒有決策能力今天很重要的幾點第一點 平埔族群的這些回復權利不是你園民會一個人的事情\n907245\t929481\t必須要行政院統籌第二件事情原住民族的進法補償要依法用公務預算公務預算在今年沒有補足的麻煩用追加預算這也是卓榮泰說的承諾好不好第三你要行文給各部會我們的傳統領域的土地不是只有公有土地包括私有地\n929961\t951365\t要不然的話 原民會你們要處理的案子就會非常非常的多我們人力已經不足了在處理這些事情的話 會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情好嗎好請主委擔起這個責任來 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝高金素美委員按剛剛宣告 休息三分鐘\n","txt":"好 辛苦了主委主委有請今天我要感謝這個牛許廷召委這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族的專法我在立法院這麼長一段時間只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案從來沒有行政院版本都是立法委員的版本而這是破天荒以來有行政院他主動提出的原住民族專法\n那麼執政黨自己呢 不願意把它優先處理如果不是我一再拜託我們今天的牛召偉排案的話我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員裡面來順利審查這是我第一個要講的 我心裡面的感觸\n那麼今天我們審查了這部平埔專法的立法是因為憲判自第17號的判決憲法法庭的判決它有三大要求第一個要求是三年之內修正原住民身份法或者是另訂特別法期限是今年的10月27號很快就要到了\n二 明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身份登記第三 針對平埔族群的權力保障要考慮它的歷史背景還有資源的分配並且要以法律明定但是我們今天看到的草案\n真的是有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎?真的是有把當時做市長的賴清德市長現在已經是總統的承諾有放在這裡嗎?\n我們再來看一下,不僅僅是賴清德喔早在2016年的時候,蔡英文總統她也就公開承諾了她說請尊重平埔族群自我認同權要歸還原住民族的身份以及完整的民族權利而去年圓明會你們報告上也講你們會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身份法\n可是我們現在的這個草案既沒有修原住民身份法也沒有一次歸還身份跟權利然後呢還要把平埔族群另立專法然後把問題切割出去這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊所以呢我們看到有非常多的平埔族的族人抗議啊雖然\n主委您說你開了很多場的會議也跟大家說明了很多但是我們要看一下更誇張的是第23條的條文23條的條文寫說政府還要再花三年來嚴寧保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等的基本權利的配套措施\n我们看一下宪法判决已经是三年前的事了政府花了三年才提出法案结果具体的权利还要再拖三年而这样的立法节奏\n講白了就是一拖再拖這樣讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎然後在這裡我要請問一下主委三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎請問跟委員報告我們是希望在三年內\n能夠全部都來做到但是有的這個法例其實不用多三年我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了有一些是當然我們是期待希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法例我們都希望能夠把它訂好是這樣\n好啦 我們拭目以待啦 我是非常懷疑啦因為呢 就連原基法以及明文保障的權利其實呢 你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人就在上週 最高行政法院112年度上至第487號判決講得非常的清楚 說什麼呢\n原基法第21條裡面原住民族的傳統領域的土地包括公有地也包括私有地原民會 諸位聽清楚了嗎也看清楚了嗎這個不是模糊地帶喔這個是我們的法律明文規定啊而且呢是最高行政法院已經說的所以呢根本就不需要修法\n自從106年原住民族土地或者部落範圍土地劃設辦法公布以來原民會你們就配合行政院一再的推卸責任說法律沒有授權私有地不可以處理\n我認為你們真的一直長期以來在誤導社會誤導各部會我認為這是惡意的來詮釋法律這也嚴重的傷害到了原住民族的土地權利更可惡的是什麼竟然我們有執政黨的立法委員尤其是原住民的立法委員刻意的混淆視聽然後帶風向說這個要修法才能夠處理\n我認為呢這是站在殖民者的立場講話為了政治的利益然後犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益這讓我憤怒啊明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了再講一遍原基法裡面第21條說的原住民族傳統領域土地包括公有地也包括私有地請問一下園民會這還需要修法嗎\n我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對這樣的一個個案的裁判這不是個案 他的明文規定的字已經寫了原住民的傳統領域包括不僅僅是公有地也包括私有地\n我再說一下其他部會更得寸進尺像能源局呢在執政黨委員的要求之下他草率推出什麼地熱探勘指引這個明目張膽的要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面這也擺明了為開發業者護航要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務而\n我自己出生的地方和平區也陳情抗議我們的台電在傳統領域之內開發居然用什麼這是私有地為藉口完全就不尊重部落也漠視我們諮商同意權\n現在呢法院已經判決出來了請問主委法院再講一遍法院說原基法的第21條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地您支持嗎\n我想委員謝謝我們會跟這個中央地方我們一起來做這個通話性的檢討這就是我現在要告訴您的我要請原民會你們立刻修正韓式然後新聞各部會告訴就在上週\n我們的這個法院的判決說什麼原住民的傳統領域土地不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權可以嗎可以好謝謝好繼續我要問你最重要的問題了現在已經幾月了主委\n6月底原住民族要發禁法補償大概是幾月份會發最快9月1號開始發放最快9月1號你現在已經不到兩個月了吧\n不到兩個月吧 我知道呢 原民會你們三月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算然後補足行政院掃編的23.9億元的進法補償可是呢 行政院一直沒有正式回應您 對不對\n黃國昌主席有質詢他質詢副主席長副主席長已經公開的在立法院回應他了一兩個月之內就會提案請問主委這是真的嗎?您知道這件事情嗎?\n因為我們已經很早就辦就希望能夠我知道啦你三月啊所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席執行的時候我們的副主計長告訴他一直逼問之下才說這一兩個月之內就會提案所以主委這是我提醒您的這也是我告訴您的我希望呢您趕快跟主計長說黃國昌召委\n在這邊質詢副主計長已經答應他一兩個月之內會提案可以嗎請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體的交代如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算把23.9億不足的進法補償給原住民的話這會造成很大的困擾第一個\n有人說如果領不到一公頃六萬塊他就會離開立法院\n第二個行政院的卓榮泰這個院長他親自在草野協商的時候在行政院簽名簽字寫說要用追加預算這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話那麼\n我們的族人還要相信誰我們的國人還要相信誰第三個我要提醒您如果不是用追加預算而用我們的綜合發展基金的話這件事情知識體大為什麼綜合發展基金主委你清楚知道已經要破產了對不對\n如果在破產的狀況還要原民會去找出這23.9億無非就是要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做甚至於要讓主委您自己擠破頭找出23.9億來補足這個缺口這個委屈原民會不能夠吞下去啊\n這個委屈我們全國的原住民的族人也不能夠推下去啊因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案必須要用公務預算來補所以這是非常清楚的\n我們的行政院我們的國家不能夠帶頭違法已經違法過一次了不能夠再有第二次主委這是我在這裡衷心的提醒你真是非常的重要好嗎好最後我要再提醒你的是我認為原民會你們真的非常的努力了但是我要坦白講你們並沒有能力\n因為為什麼決策權全部都在行政院那我再講一下目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡不是只有園民會啊主委您知道還有文化部還有教育部還有衛福部還有經濟部等等不同的部會包括最重要的未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後他的選舉制度\n他的預算夠不夠 按照現在原名婚禮預算夠嗎你認為不夠對不對 你剛剛一直告訴我們說第一次這個登記可能會有10萬人光是登記這個費用就要錢了耶請問一下行政院有給你嗎這個登記當然我們也會拜託內政部護證系統他們來協助我們給你了嗎 有答應了嗎目前還沒有 我們還在申請好 所以您看\n光是不管是賴清德不管是我們的蔡英文嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭該面對的問題總是沒有面對所以呢現在請問一下園民會你有整合協調的能力嗎\n有一些我們該拜託的我們當然會拜託其他部會但是該我們做的齁我們盡量就是都已經就希望準備好了齁就是希望我們馬上要成立就是審議會要審他們的民主別這個我們也都主委這不是你能做的但是我剛剛說的很清楚您不能做的非常多對吧誠實的說嘛齁好所以我認為行政院呢必須要出面\n負起這個責任因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見因為這是賴清德當時做台南市長的時候答應了平埔族人的所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情他就必須要出面來負起總責統籌協調各部會\n從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償的平埔族群權利保障體系不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布不要一等\n又再等三年 一直在拖延下去平衡族群的基本權利還有法律地位不能夠再被推來推去無限期的延後所以今天我會要求園民會一周內提出具體的書面回應我會提這個書面的這個草案\n所以希望 主委 這件事情很嚴重我剛剛替您說了很多話我認為 園民會包括您一直以來都很認真 都很努力但是你們真的都沒有決策能力今天很重要的幾點第一點 平埔族群的這些回復權利不是你園民會一個人的事情\n必須要行政院統籌第二件事情原住民族的進法補償要依法用公務預算公務預算在今年沒有補足的麻煩用追加預算這也是卓榮泰說的承諾好不好第三你要行文給各部會我們的傳統領域的土地不是只有公有土地包括私有地\n要不然的話 原民會你們要處理的案子就會非常非常的多我們人力已經不足了在處理這些事情的話 會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情好嗎好請主委擔起這個責任來 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝高金素美委員按剛剛宣告 休息三分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.947 --> 00:30.107\n好辛苦了主委主委有請今天我要感謝這個牛許廷召委這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族的專法我在立法院這麼長一段時間只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案從來沒有行政院版本都是立法委員的版本而這是破天荒以來有行政院他主動提出的原住民族專法\n\n00:31.383 --> 00:49.844\n那麼執政黨自己呢不願意把它優先處理如果不是我一再拜託我們今天的牛召偉排案的話我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員裡面來順利審查這是我第一個要講的我心裡面的感觸\n\n00:51.185 --> 01:13.794\n那麼今天我們審查了這部平埔專法的立法是因為憲判自第17號的判決憲法法庭的判決它有三大要求第一個要求是三年之內修正原住民身份法或者是另訂特別法期限是今年的10月27號很快就要到了\n\n01:14.474 --> 01:31.896\n二明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身份登記第三針對平埔族群的權力保障要考慮它的歷史背景還有資源的分配並且要以法律明定但是我們今天看到的草案\n\n01:32.777 --> 01:47.368\n真的是有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎?真的是有把當時做市長的賴清德市長現在已經是總統的承諾有放在這裡嗎?\n\n01:48.729 --> 02:14.067\n我們再來看一下,不僅僅是賴清德喔早在2016年的時候,蔡英文總統她也就公開承諾了她說請尊重平埔族群自我認同權要歸還原住民族的身份以及完整的民族權利而去年圓明會你們報告上也講你們會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身份法\n\n02:14.767 --> 02:41.764\n可是我們現在的這個草案既沒有修原住民身份法也沒有一次歸還身份跟權利然後呢還要把平埔族群另立專法然後把問題切割出去這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊所以呢我們看到有非常多的平埔族的族人抗議啊雖然\n\n02:43.425 --> 03:09.738\n主委您說你開了很多場的會議也跟大家說明了很多但是我們要看一下更誇張的是第23條的條文23條的條文寫說政府還要再花三年來嚴寧保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等的基本權利的配套措施\n\n03:10.658 --> 03:25.078\n我们看一下宪法判决已经是三年前的事了政府花了三年才提出法案结果具体的权利还要再拖三年而这样的立法节奏\n\n03:26.219 --> 03:40.651\n講白了就是一拖再拖這樣讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎然後在這裡我要請問一下主委三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎請問跟委員報告我們是希望在三年內\n\n03:46.502 --> 04:02.297\n能夠全部都來做到但是有的這個法例其實不用多三年我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了有一些是當然我們是期待希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法例我們都希望能夠把它訂好是這樣\n\n04:03.217 --> 04:23.534\n好啦我們拭目以待啦我是非常懷疑啦因為呢就連原基法以及明文保障的權利其實呢你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人就在上週最高行政法院112年度上至第487號判決講得非常的清楚說什麼呢\n\n04:27.657 --> 04:56.726\n原基法第21條裡面原住民族的傳統領域的土地包括公有地也包括私有地原民會諸位聽清楚了嗎也看清楚了嗎這個不是模糊地帶喔這個是我們的法律明文規定啊而且呢是最高行政法院已經說的所以呢根本就不需要修法\n\n04:57.466 --> 05:12.324\n自從106年原住民族土地或者部落範圍土地劃設辦法公布以來原民會你們就配合行政院一再的推卸責任說法律沒有授權私有地不可以處理\n\n05:13.365 --> 05:16.767\n我認為你們真的一直長期以來在誤導社會誤導各部會我認為這是惡意的來詮釋法律這也嚴重的傷害到了原住民族的土地權利更可惡的是什麼竟然我們有執政黨的立法委員尤其是原住民的立法委員刻意的混淆視聽然後帶風向說這個要修法才能夠處理\n\n05:40.040 --> 06:06.425\n我認為呢這是站在殖民者的立場講話為了政治的利益然後犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益這讓我憤怒啊明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了再講一遍原基法裡面第21條說的原住民族傳統領域土地包括公有地也包括私有地請問一下園民會這還需要修法嗎\n\n06:09.039 --> 06:18.884\n我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對這樣的一個個案的裁判這不是個案他的明文規定的字已經寫了原住民的傳統領域包括不僅僅是公有地也包括私有地\n\n06:27.788 --> 06:54.107\n我再說一下其他部會更得寸進尺像能源局呢在執政黨委員的要求之下他草率推出什麼地熱探勘指引這個明目張膽的要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面這也擺明了為開發業者護航要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務而\n\n06:55.928 --> 06:59.830\n我自己出生的地方和平區也陳情抗議我們的台電在傳統領域之內開發居然用什麼這是私有地為藉口完全就不尊重部落也漠視我們諮商同意權\n\n07:13.339 --> 07:27.360\n現在呢法院已經判決出來了請問主委法院再講一遍法院說原基法的第21條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地您支持嗎\n\n07:29.281 --> 07:47.466\n我想委員謝謝我們會跟這個中央地方我們一起來做這個通話性的檢討這就是我現在要告訴您的我要請原民會你們立刻修正韓式然後新聞各部會告訴就在上週\n\n07:48.846 --> 08:07.026\n我們的這個法院的判決說什麼原住民的傳統領域土地不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權可以嗎可以好謝謝好繼續我要問你最重要的問題了現在已經幾月了主委\n\n08:09.127 --> 08:20.943\n6月底原住民族要發禁法補償大概是幾月份會發最快9月1號開始發放最快9月1號你現在已經不到兩個月了吧\n\n08:22.284 --> 08:39.898\n不到兩個月吧我知道呢原民會你們三月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算然後補足行政院掃編的23.9億元的進法補償可是呢行政院一直沒有正式回應您對不對\n\n08:40.979 --> 08:43.841\n黃國昌主席有質詢他質詢副主席長副主席長已經公開的在立法院回應他了一兩個月之內就會提案請問主委這是真的嗎?您知道這件事情嗎?\n\n09:04.378 --> 09:29.207\n因為我們已經很早就辦就希望能夠我知道啦你三月啊所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席執行的時候我們的副主計長告訴他一直逼問之下才說這一兩個月之內就會提案所以主委這是我提醒您的這也是我告訴您的我希望呢您趕快跟主計長說黃國昌召委\n\n09:33.035 --> 09:59.490\n在這邊質詢副主計長已經答應他一兩個月之內會提案可以嗎請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體的交代如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算把23.9億不足的進法補償給原住民的話這會造成很大的困擾第一個\n\n10:00.973 --> 10:03.355\n有人說如果領不到一公頃六萬塊他就會離開立法院\n\n10:07.979 --> 10:31.260\n第二個行政院的卓榮泰這個院長他親自在草野協商的時候在行政院簽名簽字寫說要用追加預算這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話那麼\n\n10:32.645 --> 10:54.591\n我們的族人還要相信誰我們的國人還要相信誰第三個我要提醒您如果不是用追加預算而用我們的綜合發展基金的話這件事情知識體大為什麼綜合發展基金主委你清楚知道已經要破產了對不對\n\n10:56.021 --> 11:18.669\n如果在破產的狀況還要原民會去找出這23.9億無非就是要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做甚至於要讓主委您自己擠破頭找出23.9億來補足這個缺口這個委屈原民會不能夠吞下去啊\n\n11:19.589 --> 11:36.021\n這個委屈我們全國的原住民的族人也不能夠推下去啊因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案必須要用公務預算來補所以這是非常清楚的\n\n11:36.681 --> 12:00.454\n我們的行政院我們的國家不能夠帶頭違法已經違法過一次了不能夠再有第二次主委這是我在這裡衷心的提醒你真是非常的重要好嗎好最後我要再提醒你的是我認為原民會你們真的非常的努力了但是我要坦白講你們並沒有能力\n\n12:01.374 --> 12:29.806\n因為為什麼決策權全部都在行政院那我再講一下目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡不是只有園民會啊主委您知道還有文化部還有教育部還有衛福部還有經濟部等等不同的部會包括最重要的未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後他的選舉制度\n\n12:31.135 --> 12:37.417\n他的預算夠不夠按照現在原名婚禮預算夠嗎你認為不夠對不對你剛剛一直告訴我們說第一次這個登記可能會有10萬人光是登記這個費用就要錢了耶請問一下行政院有給你嗎這個登記當然我們也會拜託內政部護證系統他們來協助我們給你了嗎有答應了嗎目前還沒有我們還在申請好所以您看\n\n12:59.722 --> 13:17.240\n光是不管是賴清德不管是我們的蔡英文嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭該面對的問題總是沒有面對所以呢現在請問一下園民會你有整合協調的能力嗎\n\n13:19.144 --> 13:45.325\n有一些我們該拜託的我們當然會拜託其他部會但是該我們做的齁我們盡量就是都已經就希望準備好了齁就是希望我們馬上要成立就是審議會要審他們的民主別這個我們也都主委這不是你能做的但是我剛剛說的很清楚您不能做的非常多對吧誠實的說嘛齁好所以我認為行政院呢必須要出面\n\n13:46.570 --> 14:03.002\n負起這個責任因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見因為這是賴清德當時做台南市長的時候答應了平埔族人的所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情他就必須要出面來負起總責統籌協調各部會\n\n14:06.624 --> 14:25.009\n從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償的平埔族群權利保障體系不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布不要一等\n\n14:25.749 --> 14:43.919\n又再等三年一直在拖延下去平衡族群的基本權利還有法律地位不能夠再被推來推去無限期的延後所以今天我會要求園民會一周內提出具體的書面回應我會提這個書面的這個草案\n\n14:47.541 --> 15:06.404\n所以希望主委這件事情很嚴重我剛剛替您說了很多話我認為園民會包括您一直以來都很認真都很努力但是你們真的都沒有決策能力今天很重要的幾點第一點平埔族群的這些回復權利不是你園民會一個人的事情\n\n15:07.245 --> 15:29.481\n必須要行政院統籌第二件事情原住民族的進法補償要依法用公務預算公務預算在今年沒有補足的麻煩用追加預算這也是卓榮泰說的承諾好不好第三你要行文給各部會我們的傳統領域的土地不是只有公有土地包括私有地\n\n15:29.961 --> 15:51.365\n要不然的話原民會你們要處理的案子就會非常非常的多我們人力已經不足了在處理這些事情的話會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情好嗎好請主委擔起這個責任來謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝高金素美委員按剛剛宣告休息三分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.947,"end":30.107,"text":"好 辛苦了主委主委有請今天我要感謝這個牛許廷召委這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族的專法我在立法院這麼長一段時間只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案從來沒有行政院版本都是立法委員的版本而這是破天荒以來有行政院他主動提出的原住民族專法"},{"start":31.383,"end":49.844,"text":"那麼執政黨自己呢 不願意把它優先處理如果不是我一再拜託我們今天的牛召偉排案的話我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員裡面來順利審查這是我第一個要講的 我心裡面的感觸"},{"start":51.185,"end":73.794,"text":"那麼今天我們審查了這部平埔專法的立法是因為憲判自第17號的判決憲法法庭的判決它有三大要求第一個要求是三年之內修正原住民身份法或者是另訂特別法期限是今年的10月27號很快就要到了"},{"start":74.474,"end":91.896,"text":"二 明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身份登記第三 針對平埔族群的權力保障要考慮它的歷史背景還有資源的分配並且要以法律明定但是我們今天看到的草案"},{"start":92.777,"end":107.368,"text":"真的是有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎?真的是有把當時做市長的賴清德市長現在已經是總統的承諾有放在這裡嗎?"},{"start":108.729,"end":134.067,"text":"我們再來看一下,不僅僅是賴清德喔早在2016年的時候,蔡英文總統她也就公開承諾了她說請尊重平埔族群自我認同權要歸還原住民族的身份以及完整的民族權利而去年圓明會你們報告上也講你們會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身份法"},{"start":134.767,"end":161.764,"text":"可是我們現在的這個草案既沒有修原住民身份法也沒有一次歸還身份跟權利然後呢還要把平埔族群另立專法然後把問題切割出去這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊所以呢我們看到有非常多的平埔族的族人抗議啊雖然"},{"start":163.425,"end":189.738,"text":"主委您說你開了很多場的會議也跟大家說明了很多但是我們要看一下更誇張的是第23條的條文23條的條文寫說政府還要再花三年來嚴寧保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等的基本權利的配套措施"},{"start":190.658,"end":205.078,"text":"我们看一下宪法判决已经是三年前的事了政府花了三年才提出法案结果具体的权利还要再拖三年而这样的立法节奏"},{"start":206.219,"end":220.651,"text":"講白了就是一拖再拖這樣讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎然後在這裡我要請問一下主委三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎請問跟委員報告我們是希望在三年內"},{"start":226.502,"end":242.297,"text":"能夠全部都來做到但是有的這個法例其實不用多三年我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了有一些是當然我們是期待希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法例我們都希望能夠把它訂好是這樣"},{"start":243.217,"end":263.534,"text":"好啦 我們拭目以待啦 我是非常懷疑啦因為呢 就連原基法以及明文保障的權利其實呢 你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人就在上週 最高行政法院112年度上至第487號判決講得非常的清楚 說什麼呢"},{"start":267.657,"end":296.726,"text":"原基法第21條裡面原住民族的傳統領域的土地包括公有地也包括私有地原民會 諸位聽清楚了嗎也看清楚了嗎這個不是模糊地帶喔這個是我們的法律明文規定啊而且呢是最高行政法院已經說的所以呢根本就不需要修法"},{"start":297.466,"end":312.324,"text":"自從106年原住民族土地或者部落範圍土地劃設辦法公布以來原民會你們就配合行政院一再的推卸責任說法律沒有授權私有地不可以處理"},{"start":313.365,"end":316.767,"text":"我認為你們真的一直長期以來在誤導社會誤導各部會我認為這是惡意的來詮釋法律這也嚴重的傷害到了原住民族的土地權利更可惡的是什麼竟然我們有執政黨的立法委員尤其是原住民的立法委員刻意的混淆視聽然後帶風向說這個要修法才能夠處理"},{"start":340.04,"end":366.425,"text":"我認為呢這是站在殖民者的立場講話為了政治的利益然後犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益這讓我憤怒啊明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了再講一遍原基法裡面第21條說的原住民族傳統領域土地包括公有地也包括私有地請問一下園民會這還需要修法嗎"},{"start":369.039,"end":378.884,"text":"我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對這樣的一個個案的裁判這不是個案 他的明文規定的字已經寫了原住民的傳統領域包括不僅僅是公有地也包括私有地"},{"start":387.788,"end":414.107,"text":"我再說一下其他部會更得寸進尺像能源局呢在執政黨委員的要求之下他草率推出什麼地熱探勘指引這個明目張膽的要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面這也擺明了為開發業者護航要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務而"},{"start":415.928,"end":419.83,"text":"我自己出生的地方和平區也陳情抗議我們的台電在傳統領域之內開發居然用什麼這是私有地為藉口完全就不尊重部落也漠視我們諮商同意權"},{"start":433.339,"end":447.36,"text":"現在呢法院已經判決出來了請問主委法院再講一遍法院說原基法的第21條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地您支持嗎"},{"start":449.281,"end":467.466,"text":"我想委員謝謝我們會跟這個中央地方我們一起來做這個通話性的檢討這就是我現在要告訴您的我要請原民會你們立刻修正韓式然後新聞各部會告訴就在上週"},{"start":468.846,"end":487.026,"text":"我們的這個法院的判決說什麼原住民的傳統領域土地不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權可以嗎可以好謝謝好繼續我要問你最重要的問題了現在已經幾月了主委"},{"start":489.127,"end":500.943,"text":"6月底原住民族要發禁法補償大概是幾月份會發最快9月1號開始發放最快9月1號你現在已經不到兩個月了吧"},{"start":502.284,"end":519.898,"text":"不到兩個月吧 我知道呢 原民會你們三月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算然後補足行政院掃編的23.9億元的進法補償可是呢 行政院一直沒有正式回應您 對不對"},{"start":520.979,"end":523.841,"text":"黃國昌主席有質詢他質詢副主席長副主席長已經公開的在立法院回應他了一兩個月之內就會提案請問主委這是真的嗎?您知道這件事情嗎?"},{"start":544.378,"end":569.207,"text":"因為我們已經很早就辦就希望能夠我知道啦你三月啊所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席執行的時候我們的副主計長告訴他一直逼問之下才說這一兩個月之內就會提案所以主委這是我提醒您的這也是我告訴您的我希望呢您趕快跟主計長說黃國昌召委"},{"start":573.035,"end":599.49,"text":"在這邊質詢副主計長已經答應他一兩個月之內會提案可以嗎請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體的交代如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算把23.9億不足的進法補償給原住民的話這會造成很大的困擾第一個"},{"start":600.973,"end":603.355,"text":"有人說如果領不到一公頃六萬塊他就會離開立法院"},{"start":607.979,"end":631.26,"text":"第二個行政院的卓榮泰這個院長他親自在草野協商的時候在行政院簽名簽字寫說要用追加預算這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話那麼"},{"start":632.645,"end":654.591,"text":"我們的族人還要相信誰我們的國人還要相信誰第三個我要提醒您如果不是用追加預算而用我們的綜合發展基金的話這件事情知識體大為什麼綜合發展基金主委你清楚知道已經要破產了對不對"},{"start":656.021,"end":678.669,"text":"如果在破產的狀況還要原民會去找出這23.9億無非就是要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做甚至於要讓主委您自己擠破頭找出23.9億來補足這個缺口這個委屈原民會不能夠吞下去啊"},{"start":679.589,"end":696.021,"text":"這個委屈我們全國的原住民的族人也不能夠推下去啊因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案必須要用公務預算來補所以這是非常清楚的"},{"start":696.681,"end":720.454,"text":"我們的行政院我們的國家不能夠帶頭違法已經違法過一次了不能夠再有第二次主委這是我在這裡衷心的提醒你真是非常的重要好嗎好最後我要再提醒你的是我認為原民會你們真的非常的努力了但是我要坦白講你們並沒有能力"},{"start":721.374,"end":749.806,"text":"因為為什麼決策權全部都在行政院那我再講一下目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡不是只有園民會啊主委您知道還有文化部還有教育部還有衛福部還有經濟部等等不同的部會包括最重要的未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後他的選舉制度"},{"start":751.135,"end":757.417,"text":"他的預算夠不夠 按照現在原名婚禮預算夠嗎你認為不夠對不對 你剛剛一直告訴我們說第一次這個登記可能會有10萬人光是登記這個費用就要錢了耶請問一下行政院有給你嗎這個登記當然我們也會拜託內政部護證系統他們來協助我們給你了嗎 有答應了嗎目前還沒有 我們還在申請好 所以您看"},{"start":779.722,"end":797.24,"text":"光是不管是賴清德不管是我們的蔡英文嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭該面對的問題總是沒有面對所以呢現在請問一下園民會你有整合協調的能力嗎"},{"start":799.144,"end":825.325,"text":"有一些我們該拜託的我們當然會拜託其他部會但是該我們做的齁我們盡量就是都已經就希望準備好了齁就是希望我們馬上要成立就是審議會要審他們的民主別這個我們也都主委這不是你能做的但是我剛剛說的很清楚您不能做的非常多對吧誠實的說嘛齁好所以我認為行政院呢必須要出面"},{"start":826.57,"end":843.002,"text":"負起這個責任因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見因為這是賴清德當時做台南市長的時候答應了平埔族人的所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情他就必須要出面來負起總責統籌協調各部會"},{"start":846.624,"end":865.009,"text":"從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償的平埔族群權利保障體系不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布不要一等"},{"start":865.749,"end":883.919,"text":"又再等三年 一直在拖延下去平衡族群的基本權利還有法律地位不能夠再被推來推去無限期的延後所以今天我會要求園民會一周內提出具體的書面回應我會提這個書面的這個草案"},{"start":887.541,"end":906.404,"text":"所以希望 主委 這件事情很嚴重我剛剛替您說了很多話我認為 園民會包括您一直以來都很認真 都很努力但是你們真的都沒有決策能力今天很重要的幾點第一點 平埔族群的這些回復權利不是你園民會一個人的事情"},{"start":907.245,"end":929.481,"text":"必須要行政院統籌第二件事情原住民族的進法補償要依法用公務預算公務預算在今年沒有補足的麻煩用追加預算這也是卓榮泰說的承諾好不好第三你要行文給各部會我們的傳統領域的土地不是只有公有土地包括私有地"},{"start":929.961,"end":951.365,"text":"要不然的話 原民會你們要處理的案子就會非常非常的多我們人力已經不足了在處理這些事情的話 會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情好嗎好請主委擔起這個責任來 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝高金素美委員按剛剛宣告 休息三分鐘"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時6分）辛苦了，主委。今天我要感謝牛煦庭召委，這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族專法，我在立法院這麼長一段時間，只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案，從來沒有行政院版本，都是立法委員的版本，這是破天荒以來由行政院主動提出的原住民族專法。執政黨自己不願意把它優先處理，如果不是我一直拜託牛召委排案的話，我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員會裡面來順利審查，這是我第一個要講的我心裡面的感觸。","今天我們審查的這部平埔專法的立法，是因為憲判字第17號的判決，憲法法庭的判決有三大要求：第一個要求是三年之內修正「原住民身分法」或另訂特別法，期限是今年的10月27號，很快就要到了；二、明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身分登記；三、針對平埔族群的權利保障，要考慮其歷史背景與資源的分配，並且要以法律明定。但是我們今天看到的草案，真的有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎？真的有把當時做市長的賴清德，現在已經是總統的承諾放在這裡嗎？","我們再來看一下，不僅僅是賴清德，早在2016年的時候，蔡英文總統就公開承諾，他說：請尊重平埔族群自我認同權，要歸還原住民族的身分以及完整的民主權利。而去年原民會你們報告上也講會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身分法。可是現在的草案既沒有修原住民身分法，也沒有一次歸還身分跟權利，還要把平埔族群另立專法，把問題切割出去，這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊！所以我們看到有非常多平埔族族人抗議啊！","雖然主委您說開了很多場的會議，也跟大家說明了很多。但是我們要看一下，更誇張的是，第二十三條的條文寫說，政府還要再花三年來研擬保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等基本權利的配套措施。憲法判決已經是三年前的事了，政府花了三年才提出法案，結果具體的權利還要再拖三年，而這樣的立法節奏講白了就是一拖再拖，這要讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎？在這裡我要請問一下主委，三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們是希望在三年內能夠全部都來做到，但是有的法律其實不用到三年，我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了。當然我們是希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法律都能夠把它定好。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，我們拭目以待啦！我是非常懷疑啦！因為就連原基法已經明文保障的權利，其實你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人。就在上週最高行政法院112年度上字第487號判決講得非常清楚說：原基法第二十一條裡面，原住民族傳統領域的土地，包括公有地也包括私有地，原民會主委聽清楚了嗎？也看清楚了嗎？這個不是模糊地帶，這個是我們的法律明文規定啊！而且是最高行政法院已經說的，所以根本就不需要修法。","自從106年原住民族土地或部落範圍土地劃設辦法公布以來，原民會就配合行政院一再地推卸責任說：法律沒有授權，私有地不可以處理。我認為你們真的長期以來一直在誤導社會、誤導各部會，我認為這是惡意地詮釋法律，這也嚴重傷害到原住民族的土地權利，更可惡的是什麼？竟然有執政黨的立法委員，尤其是原住民的立法委員，刻意混淆視聽帶風向說：這個要修法才能夠處理。我認為這是站在殖民者的立場講話，為了政治的利益犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益，這讓我憤怒啊！明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了，再講一遍，原基法裡面第二十一條說的原住民族傳統領域土地，包括公有地也包括私有地。請問一下原民會，這還需要修法嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對個案的裁判，但是原民會針對傳統領域的劃設……"],["高金委員素梅：這不是個案，它已經明文規定的寫原住民的傳統領域，不僅包括公有地，也包括私有地啊！","好啦，我再說一下，其他部會更得寸進尺，像能源局在執政黨委員的要求之下草率推出地熱探勘指引，這個明目張膽地要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面，這也擺明了為開發業者護航，要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務。而我自己出身的地方和平區也陳情抗議，台電在傳統領域之內開發，居然用這是私有地為藉口，完全就不尊重部落，也漠視我們諮商同意權。現在法院已經判決出來了，請問主委，再講一遍，法院說原基法的第二十一條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地，您支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝……"],["高金委員素梅：您支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：中央、地方會一起來做通案性的檢討。"],["高金委員素梅：好，這就是我現在要告訴您的，我要請原民會立刻修正函釋，行文告訴各部會，就在上週法院的判決說原住民的傳統領域土地，不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。繼續我要問你最重要的問題，現在已經幾月了，主委？"],["曾主任委員智勇：6月底。"],["高金委員素梅：原住民族要發禁伐補償，大概是幾月份會發？"],["曾主任委員智勇：最快9月1號開始發放。"],["高金委員素梅：離現在已經不到兩個月了吧！我知道原民會3月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算，補足行政院少編的23.9億元的禁伐補償，可是行政院一直沒有正式回應您對不對？還沒有對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們還繼續在爭取。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道嗎？上週四的時候，黃國昌主席有質詢副主計長，副主計長已經公開在立法院回應他：一、兩個月之內就會提案。請問主委這是真的嗎？您知道這件事情嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為我們很早就辦，就希望能夠……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，你3月啊！所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊！所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席質詢的時候，一直逼問之下，副主計長才告訴他：這一、兩個月之內就會提案。所以主委，這是我提醒您的，這也是我告訴您的，我希望您趕快跟主計長說，黃國昌召委在這邊質詢，副主計長已經答應他一、兩個月之內會提案，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體交代，如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算，把不足的23.9億禁伐補償給原住民的話，這會造成很大的困擾。","第一個，有人說，如果領不到一公頃6萬塊，他就會離開立法院。第二個，行政院卓榮泰院長親自在朝野協商的時候，行政院簽名、簽字寫說要用追加預算，這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾，如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話，那麼我們族人還要相信誰、我們國人還要相信誰？第三個，我要提醒您，如果不是用追加預算，而是用我們的綜合發展基金的話，這件事情茲事體大，為什麼？主委，你清楚知道綜合發展基金已經要破產了，對不對？如果在要破產的狀況，還要原民會去找出這23.9億，無非就要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做，甚至要讓主委您自己擠破頭，找出23.9億來補足這個缺口，這個委屈，原民會不能夠吞下去；這個委屈，我們全國原住民的族人也不能夠吞下去，因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案，必須要用公務預算來補，這是非常清楚的，我們行政院、我們國家不能夠帶頭違法，已經違法過一次了，不能夠再有第二次。主委，我在這裡衷心的提醒你，這非常的重要，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：最後，我要再提醒你的是，我認為原民會你們真的非常努力了，但是我要坦白講，你們並沒有能力，為什麼？決策權全部都在行政院。我再講一下，目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡？不是只有原民會，主委，您知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：還有文化部、教育部、衛福部、經濟部等等不同的部會，包括最重要的，未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後，它的選舉制度、它的預算夠不夠？你認為按照現在原民會的預算夠嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不夠。"],["高金委員素梅：你剛剛一直告訴我們說，第一次登記可能會有10萬人，光是登記這個費用就要錢，請問一下，行政院有給你嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個登記，當然我們也會拜託內政部戶政系統他們來協助我們。"],["高金委員素梅：給你了嗎？有答應了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前還沒有，我們還在爭取。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以你看，不管是賴清德、不管是蔡英文，嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利，要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭，但該面對的問題總是沒有面對，所以請問原民會，你有整合協調的能力嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有一些我們該拜託的，我們當然會拜託其他部會，但是該我們做的，我們儘量希望都已經準備好了，就是我們馬上要成立審議會要審他們的民族別，這個我們也都進入狀況……"],["高金委員素梅：主委，這是你能做的，但是我剛剛說得很清楚，您不能做的非常多，對吧？誠實的說嘛！所以我認為行政院必須要出面負起這個責任，因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見、因為這是賴清德當時做臺南市長的時候，答應平埔族人的。所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情，就必須要出面負起全責，統籌協調各部會，從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償平埔族群權利保障體系，不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布，不要一等又再等3年，一直再拖延下去。平埔族群的基本權利，還有法律地位，不能夠再被推來推去，無限期延後，所以今天我要求原民會一週內提出具體的書面回應，我會提這個書面草案。主委，這件事情很嚴重，我剛剛替您說了很多話，我認為原民會包括您一直以來都很認真、很努力，但是你們真的都沒有決策能力。","今天很重要的幾點：第一點，平埔族群這些回復權利，不是你原民會一個人的事情，必須要行政院統籌。第二件事情，原住民族的禁伐補償要依法用公務預算，公務預算在今年沒有補足的，麻煩用追加預算，這也是卓榮泰說的承諾，好不好？第三個，你要行文給各部會，我們傳統領域的土地，不是只有公有土地，包括私有地，要不然的話，原民會要處理的案子就會非常非常的多，我們人力已經不足了，再處理這些事情的話，會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：請主委擔起這個責任來，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員。","按剛剛宣告，休息3分鐘。","休息（10時22分）","繼續開會（10時27分）"],["主席（高金委員素梅代）：我們繼續開會。","請牛煦庭召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","張智倫","蘇巧慧","丁學忠"],"page_start":137,"meetingDate":["2025-06-30"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平\n埔原住民族群身分法草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1146401_00003"}}}