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0.886}, {\"word\": \"埔\", \"start\": 410.573, \"end\": 411.054, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"駐\"}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 411.054, \"end\": 411.534, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 411.534, \"end\": 411.715, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 411.715, \"end\": 411.895, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 411.895, \"end\": 411.995, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 411.995, \"end\": 412.095, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 412.095, \"end\": 412.275, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 412.275, \"end\": 412.435, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 412.435, \"end\": 412.695, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 412.695, \"end\": 412.916, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 412.916, \"end\": 413.096, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 413.096, \"end\": 413.216, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 413.216, \"end\": 413.536, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 413.536, \"end\": 414.137, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 414.137, \"end\": 414.297, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 414.297, \"end\": 414.397, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 414.397, \"end\": 414.417, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 416.84, \"end\": 438.542, \"text\": \"我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 416.84, \"end\": 416.98, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 416.98, \"end\": 417.08, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 417.08, \"end\": 417.2, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 417.2, \"end\": 417.28, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 417.28, \"end\": 417.661, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, 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\"決\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 428.331, \"end\": 428.472, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 428.472, \"end\": 428.592, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 428.592, \"end\": 428.732, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 428.732, \"end\": 429.032, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 429.032, \"end\": 429.212, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 429.212, \"end\": 429.653, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 429.653, \"end\": 429.793, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 429.793, \"end\": 429.813, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 429.813, \"end\": 429.993, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 429.993, \"end\": 430.113, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 430.113, \"end\": 430.354, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 430.354, \"end\": 430.494, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 430.494, \"end\": 430.754, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 430.754, \"end\": 430.914, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 430.914, \"end\": 431.695, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 431.695, \"end\": 431.715, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 431.715, \"end\": 431.895, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 431.895, \"end\": 431.975, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 431.975, \"end\": 432.075, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 432.075, \"end\": 432.235, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 432.235, \"end\": 432.335, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 432.335, \"end\": 432.636, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"挹\"}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 432.636, \"end\": 432.976, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 432.976, \"end\": 433.136, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 433.136, \"end\": 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436.139, \"end\": 436.299, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 436.299, \"end\": 436.44, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 436.44, \"end\": 436.54, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 436.54, \"end\": 436.78, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 436.78, \"end\": 437.2, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 437.2, \"end\": 437.36, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 437.36, \"end\": 437.621, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 437.621, \"end\": 437.721, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 437.721, \"end\": 437.761, \"score\": 0.391}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 437.761, \"end\": 437.921, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 437.921, \"end\": 438.041, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 438.041, \"end\": 438.341, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"擠\"}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 438.341, \"end\": 438.522, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 438.522, \"end\": 438.542, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 439.022, \"end\": 467.131, \"text\": \"那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 439.022, \"end\": 439.142, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 439.142, \"end\": 439.382, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 439.382, \"end\": 439.842, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 439.842, \"end\": 440.042, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 440.042, \"end\": 440.282, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 440.282, \"end\": 440.402, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 440.402, \"end\": 440.583, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 440.583, \"end\": 440.683, \"score\": 0.801}, 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534.602, \"end\": 534.622, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 534.622, \"end\": 534.662, \"score\": 0.482}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 534.662, \"end\": 534.682, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 534.682, \"end\": 534.702, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 536.944, \"end\": 538.088, \"text\": \"可以做是这样的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 536.944, \"end\": 537.044, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 537.044, \"end\": 537.124, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 537.124, \"end\": 537.466, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 537.466, \"end\": 537.666, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"这\", \"start\": 537.666, \"end\": 537.807, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"样\", \"start\": 537.807, \"end\": 538.068, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 538.068, \"end\": 538.088, \"score\": 0.021}]}, {\"start\": 538.601, \"end\": 567.051, \"text\": 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629.799, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 629.799, \"end\": 629.819, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 629.819, \"end\": 630.16, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 630.16, \"end\": 630.28, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 630.28, \"end\": 630.42, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 630.42, \"end\": 630.58, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"詳\"}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 630.58, \"end\": 631.0, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 631.0, \"end\": 631.14, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 631.14, \"end\": 631.26, \"score\": 0.721}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 631.26, \"end\": 631.581, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 631.581, \"end\": 632.221, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 632.221, \"end\": 632.601, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 632.601, \"end\": 632.721, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 632.721, \"end\": 632.821, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 632.821, \"end\": 632.942, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 632.942, \"end\": 633.042, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 633.042, \"end\": 633.102, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 633.102, \"end\": 633.122, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,136 --> 00:00:32,170\n謝謝主席曾志勇主委有請主委辛苦了我們今天討論評普原住民族群身份法草案的審查那有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求要不然你要修原住民身份法要不然你就訂特別法那看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法但沒有關係不管你是要修身份法或者是特別法其實\n\n2\n00:00:33,110 --> 00:00:50,161\n就要因應這個保障平埔原住民族群的這樣的一個權益當然就會跟現行的政策資源等等有一些的改變跟差異所以我希望我們的原民會針對這樣的一些改變跟差異能夠有比較清楚的回答這樣大家才會知道後面的節奏啊怎麼樣來做掌握\n\n3\n00:00:51,261 --> 00:01:18,211\n這有一個數據來講就是我們現在2025年5月法定員入名也就是現在三員加平員是61.8萬人但平補員平補組預估人數這各種說法都有有的說一二十萬有的說到98.1萬這人的數量會影響政策資源的投入包含政策時間的安排這我想主委不會反對那我就想請問一下因為按照你現在草案裡面你現在講說\n\n4\n00:01:19,731 --> 00:01:38,956\n現在第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為熟或者是貧嘛就是熟犯或者是貧婦族嘛那時候的稱謂這樣子的以你們目前的掌握戶口名簿上有這樣子的註記的大概有多少人就是98萬多一點\n\n5\n00:01:40,953 --> 00:01:55,140\n有註記的就是98萬多一點98萬多一點所以98萬這個數字從這裡來的對好然後你後面有講其他條件嘛也就是說要市民其所民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續\n\n6\n00:01:56,221 --> 00:02:15,645\n且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同嘛對不對因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿然後再來有一些主動的要件嘛比如說我有共同文化然後大家有共同認同對不對這是主觀要件後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集那後面這兩個要件這樣算進去大概會是多少人就會比較多啦大概就是你說講的會大概恐怕會增加到120萬啦\n\n7\n00:02:23,647 --> 00:02:49,899\n還會比那個更多是取交集還是取聯集因為我們希望就是說這個平埔原住民身份的認定他們一定要有傳統的這個習俗跟文化跟語言還有就是必須他要認同還要有一個認同這個我們這個族群就是說有文化而且認同這是一塊嘛然後有戶口名簿這是一塊嘛對不對是這全部都算還是要兩個都有才算我們釐清一下\n\n8\n00:02:50,738 --> 00:03:16,258\n兩個都有啊要兩個都有啊要兩個都有才算嘛那你怎麼會變成一百二十萬人你有戶口民部只有九十八萬人嘛然後有這其中有人會在乎有民族認同有文化傳承應該是占這全部人的一部分然後這個數字應該會變小啊委員我跟你講齁你釐清一下有註記的是九十八萬嘛對啊但是有的他是\n\n9\n00:03:17,612 --> 00:03:41,790\n並沒有註記有一些甚至像那個南投那邊有很多他們的這個戶籍的這個他可能已經不見了或者是什麼的對不對還塗黑的還什麼的或者是塗黑的嘛對對對這個又會加進去那你剛剛講說兩個都要一起這叫交集嘛對不對我剛剛問你是交集還是聯集啊就是說沒有一定要一起其中有一項符合都算那叫聯集啊那到底是哪一個\n\n10\n00:03:43,188 --> 00:04:10,301\n都要符合那叫交集對不對那如果有戶口名簿的98萬然後又要認同這些那數字怎麼會變120萬你知道我的意思嗎應該是不會啦應該會變少嘛對不對來補充說明一下各位報告有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人再加上沒有戶口名簿登記但是他仍然是南島語系民族的\n\n11\n00:04:11,261 --> 00:04:22,807\n這些就要再加進去這個區塊就更大當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同有族群認同的人我們認為可能會比主持8萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的\n\n12\n00:04:25,448 --> 00:04:53,546\n你這樣講你剛剛的闡述跟概念是不太一樣的事情欸因為你講說都要有嘛你又要有戶口名簿的登記且他有族群認同等等那怎麼會超過呢好你即便你講說好有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記有另外的一群人對不對那我實在是我實在是有點我現在覺得有點跳脫不好意思我今天可能要多一點時間啦沒有我再給你補充說明一下啦再跟委員報告所謂的\n\n13\n00:04:54,500 --> 00:05:15,929\n大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史記錄可及在本草案的第八條指的是有熟評註記以及其他政府公文書的註記再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內指明他們是南島嶼新民族所以98萬的數據呢其實只是第一款的\n\n14\n00:05:16,790 --> 00:05:36,025\n那如果第二款第三款再加進去就會超過98萬人來你把第二款第三款加進去總共是多少人你剛剛主委講120萬對不對是嗎這個是有可能的有可能沒關係預估沒關係你只要抓不要跟到最後差太多就好所以總共的母數大概是120萬嘛對不對差不多\n\n15\n00:05:37,446 --> 00:05:50,151\n好那加上後面的條件嘛也就是市民其民族語言習俗傳統文化特性依然持續且民族成員維持族群認同者在這120萬人裡面符合這個後面要件的多少人大概是多少120你來講一下\n\n16\n00:05:56,704 --> 00:06:09,595\n報告員這個後面的這些要件呢就是要透過審議的機制對你有一個登記的時間嘛對不對對對所以這個部分的話就沒有辦法做比較精準正確的推估沒關係以你現在就是此時此刻大概是多少人\n\n17\n00:06:11,138 --> 00:06:32,137\n我們目前有在做的大概也只有希拉雅族目前已經到了一個階段的成果那如果希拉雅族完成登記的話以希拉雅族在中南部的分部的狀況來看也許希拉雅族就可以增加到大概可以到三四十萬人左右沒有你跟我講你現在比如今年來講符合這樣條件總共有多少人\n\n18\n00:06:33,098 --> 00:06:54,417\n因為他是要一組一組一組的來審那我們目前已經比較確定的比較確定比較顯性的嘛對那西賴雅族審查的結果目前我們傾向他這個目前看起來還算明確所以呢以台南高雄屏東等地有首藩駐記者或是平埔駐記者大概可以接近到接三十多萬人三十幾萬好\n\n19\n00:06:56,840 --> 00:07:18,542\n我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛\n\n20\n00:07:19,022 --> 00:07:47,131\n那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎\n\n21\n00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:57,298\n你最起碼我們馬上要做的就是語言文化的這個保存齁這個一定要做了對啊我們自己會裡面就可以來做了\n\n22\n00:07:59,073 --> 00:08:26,171\n我現在給這個職位很好的機會因為你看你現在有一包預算好幾億對不對在做原文化保存未來可能短時間內就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人嘛那你增加30萬人你要不要多一點預算嘛我其實就這樣但你心裡要有數字啊對不對我們現在心裡有數啦大概你光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助如果直接適用的話預算大概要增加到11億\n\n23\n00:08:27,492 --> 00:08:54,702\n當然要再增加11億嘛對不對那你就講這個就好了嘛我跟你講我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算那你跟行政院長溝通了沒行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎我有跟院長也已經在訂這個法的時候他們也有跟院長講增加多少人我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧我們的族人當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位就好像講二三十萬那也許11億我們就可以\n\n24\n00:08:56,944 --> 00:08:58,088\n可以做是这样的\n\n25\n00:08:58,601 --> 00:09:27,051\n那所以你心裡你就是用二三十萬的人數去要求十一億的預算是這樣嗎是我們現在院長對你的承諾是什麼他有沒有一口答應就是趕快做不是他院長說本來這個預算的增加這不是研民會的事這是國家本來就是因為要照顧當然啊進來的主委但你要去申請因為你是主管機關嘛對當然就是要我們要估算出來大概要做哪些做哪些然後請求院裡面來協助那到底會不會明確的支援你嘛\n\n26\n00:09:27,967 --> 00:09:57,254\n就因為到了第四會期啦這個會期馬上結束之後對不對可能因為這個憲判有時間規定嘛有時間壓力我們一定要在十月前把它處理完處理完之後馬上我們就要編明年的預算嘛對不對那你到底會增加多少然後有沒有政府的保證支持那其實會關乎我們法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力嘛如果你沒有辦法保證說我們政府會多給原住民更多的資源然後讓我們本來現在的山原跟平永安心對不對那到最後這法案就審查的時候很有可能會卡住啊\n\n27\n00:09:57,694 --> 00:10:22,354\n然後可能會造成更大的問題嘛對不對所以我們今天花質詢的時間沒關係我們後續還有法案審查的時間但是我們希望第一個人數的數字要明確第二個投入的資源要明確第三其實就是我們到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論也就是說我憑普足加入之後他們立刻可以獲得什麼樣的保障這些東西我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中都原住民族委員會你要做好心理準備捏\n\n28\n00:10:23,115 --> 00:10:33,122\n對不對要有這樣的一個政策調整就像我們高金委員講的要有能力來處理所以相關的資料今天詢答完之後要再做詳細的補充可以嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4136\t32170\t謝謝主席 曾志勇主委有請主委辛苦了我們今天討論評普原住民族群身份法草案的審查那有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求要不然你要修原住民身份法要不然你就訂特別法那看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法但沒有關係不管你是要修身份法或者是特別法其實\n33110\t50161\t就要因應這個保障平埔原住民族群的這樣的一個權益當然就會跟現行的政策資源等等有一些的改變跟差異所以我希望我們的原民會針對這樣的一些改變跟差異能夠有比較清楚的回答這樣大家才會知道後面的節奏啊怎麼樣來做掌握\n51261\t78211\t這有一個數據來講就是我們現在2025年5月法定員入名也就是現在三員加平員是61.8萬人但平補員 平補組預估人數這各種說法都有有的說一二十萬有的說到98.1萬這人的數量會影響政策資源的投入包含政策時間的安排這我想主委不會反對那我就想請問一下因為按照你現在草案裡面你現在講說\n79731\t98956\t現在第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為熟或者是貧嘛就是熟犯或者是貧婦族嘛那時候的稱謂這樣子的以你們目前的掌握戶口名簿上有這樣子的註記的大概有多少人就是98萬多一點\n100953\t115140\t有註記的就是98萬多一點98萬多一點所以98萬這個數字從這裡來的對好然後你後面有講其他條件嘛也就是說要市民其所民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續\n116221\t135645\t且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同嘛對不對因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿然後再來有一些主動的要件嘛比如說我有共同文化然後大家有共同認同對不對這是主觀要件後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集那後面這兩個要件這樣算進去大概會是多少人就會比較多啦大概就是你說講的會大概恐怕會增加到120萬啦\n143647\t169899\t還會比那個更多是取交集還是取聯集因為我們希望就是說這個平埔原住民身份的認定他們一定要有傳統的這個習俗跟文化跟語言還有就是必須他要認同還要有一個認同這個我們這個族群就是說有文化而且認同這是一塊嘛然後有戶口名簿這是一塊嘛對不對是這全部都算還是要兩個都有才算我們釐清一下\n170738\t196258\t兩個都有啊 要兩個都有啊要兩個都有才算嘛那你怎麼會變成一百二十萬人你有戶口民部只有九十八萬人嘛然後有 這其中有人會在乎有民族認同 有文化傳承應該是占這全部人的一部分然後這個數字應該會變小啊委員我跟你講齁 你釐清一下有註記的是九十八萬嘛 對啊但是有的他是\n197612\t221790\t並沒有註記 有一些 甚至像那個南投那邊有很多他們的這個戶籍的這個他可能已經不見了 或者是什麼的對不對還塗黑的 還什麼的 或者是塗黑的嘛對對對 這個又會加進去那你剛剛講說兩個都要一起 這叫交集嘛 對不對我剛剛問你是交集還是聯集啊就是說沒有一定要一起 其中有一項符合都算 那叫聯集啊那到底是哪一個\n223188\t250301\t都要符合那叫交集對不對那如果有戶口名簿的98萬然後又要認同這些那數字怎麼會變120萬你知道我的意思嗎應該是不會啦應該會變少嘛對不對來補充說明一下各位報告有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人再加上沒有戶口名簿登記但是他仍然是南島語系民族的\n251261\t262807\t這些就要再加進去這個區塊就更大當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同有族群認同的人我們認為可能會比主持8萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的\n265448\t293546\t你這樣講你剛剛的闡述跟概念是不太一樣的事情欸因為你講說都要有嘛你又要有戶口名簿的登記且他有族群認同等等那怎麼會超過呢好你即便你講說好有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記有另外的一群人對不對那我實在是我實在是有點我現在覺得有點跳脫不好意思我今天可能要多一點時間啦沒有我再給你補充說明一下啦再跟委員報告所謂的\n294500\t315929\t大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史記錄可及在本草案的第八條指的是有熟評註記以及其他政府公文書的註記再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內指明他們是南島嶼新民族所以98萬的數據呢其實只是第一款的\n316790\t336025\t那如果第二款第三款再加進去就會超過98萬人來你把第二款第三款加進去總共是多少人你剛剛主委講120萬對不對是嗎這個是有可能的有可能沒關係預估沒關係你只要抓不要跟到最後差太多就好所以總共的母數大概是120萬嘛對不對差不多\n337446\t350151\t好那加上後面的條件嘛也就是市民其民族語言習俗傳統文化特性依然持續且民族成員維持族群認同者在這120萬人裡面符合這個後面要件的多少人大概是多少120你來講一下\n356704\t369595\t報告員這個後面的這些要件呢就是要透過審議的機制對你有一個登記的時間嘛對不對對對所以這個部分的話就沒有辦法做比較精準正確的推估沒關係以你現在就是此時此刻大概是多少人\n371138\t392137\t我們目前有在做的大概也只有希拉雅族目前已經到了一個階段的成果那如果希拉雅族完成登記的話以希拉雅族在中南部的分部的狀況來看也許希拉雅族就可以增加到大概可以到三四十萬人左右沒有你跟我講你現在比如今年來講符合這樣條件總共有多少人\n393098\t414417\t因為他是要一組一組一組的來審那我們目前已經比較確定的比較確定比較顯性的嘛對那西賴雅族審查的結果目前我們傾向他這個目前看起來還算明確所以呢以台南高雄屏東等地有首藩駐記者或是平埔駐記者大概可以接近到接三十多萬人三十幾萬好\n416840\t438542\t我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛\n439022\t467131\t那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎\n468516\t477298\t你最起碼我們馬上要做的就是語言文化的這個保存齁這個一定要做了對啊我們自己會裡面就可以來做了\n479073\t506171\t我現在給這個職位很好的機會因為你看你現在有一包預算好幾億對不對在做原文化保存未來可能短時間內就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人嘛那你增加30萬人你要不要多一點預算嘛我其實就這樣但你心裡要有數字啊對不對我們現在心裡有數啦大概你光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助如果直接適用的話預算大概要增加到11億\n507492\t534702\t當然要再增加11億嘛對不對那你就講這個就好了嘛我跟你講我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算那你跟行政院長溝通了沒行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎我有跟院長也已經在訂這個法的時候他們也有跟院長講增加多少人我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧我們的族人當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位就好像講二三十萬那也許11億我們就可以\n536944\t538088\t可以做是这样的\n538601\t567051\t那所以你心裡你就是用二三十萬的人數去要求十一億的預算是這樣嗎是我們現在院長對你的承諾是什麼他有沒有一口答應就是趕快做不是他院長說本來這個預算的增加這不是研民會的事這是國家本來就是因為要照顧當然啊進來的主委但你要去申請因為你是主管機關嘛對當然就是要我們要估算出來大概要做哪些做哪些然後請求院裡面來協助那到底會不會明確的支援你嘛\n567967\t597254\t就因為到了第四會期啦這個會期馬上結束之後對不對可能因為這個憲判有時間規定嘛有時間壓力我們一定要在十月前把它處理完處理完之後馬上我們就要編明年的預算嘛對不對那你到底會增加多少然後有沒有政府的保證支持那其實會關乎我們法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力嘛如果你沒有辦法保證說我們政府會多給原住民更多的資源然後讓我們本來現在的山原跟平永安心對不對那到最後這法案就審查的時候很有可能會卡住啊\n597694\t622354\t然後可能會造成更大的問題嘛 對不對所以我們今天花質詢的時間沒關係 我們後續還有法案審查的時間但是我們希望 第一個 人數的數字要明確第二個 投入的資源要明確第三 其實就是我們到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論也就是說 我憑普足加入之後他們立刻可以獲得什麼樣的保障這些東西我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中都原住民族委員會 你要做好心理準備捏\n623115\t633122\t對不對要有這樣的一個政策調整就像我們高金委員講的要有能力來處理所以相關的資料今天詢答完之後要再做詳細的補充可以嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 曾志勇主委有請主委辛苦了我們今天討論評普原住民族群身份法草案的審查那有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求要不然你要修原住民身份法要不然你就訂特別法那看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法但沒有關係不管你是要修身份法或者是特別法其實\n就要因應這個保障平埔原住民族群的這樣的一個權益當然就會跟現行的政策資源等等有一些的改變跟差異所以我希望我們的原民會針對這樣的一些改變跟差異能夠有比較清楚的回答這樣大家才會知道後面的節奏啊怎麼樣來做掌握\n這有一個數據來講就是我們現在2025年5月法定員入名也就是現在三員加平員是61.8萬人但平補員 平補組預估人數這各種說法都有有的說一二十萬有的說到98.1萬這人的數量會影響政策資源的投入包含政策時間的安排這我想主委不會反對那我就想請問一下因為按照你現在草案裡面你現在講說\n現在第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為熟或者是貧嘛就是熟犯或者是貧婦族嘛那時候的稱謂這樣子的以你們目前的掌握戶口名簿上有這樣子的註記的大概有多少人就是98萬多一點\n有註記的就是98萬多一點98萬多一點所以98萬這個數字從這裡來的對好然後你後面有講其他條件嘛也就是說要市民其所民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續\n且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同嘛對不對因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿然後再來有一些主動的要件嘛比如說我有共同文化然後大家有共同認同對不對這是主觀要件後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集那後面這兩個要件這樣算進去大概會是多少人就會比較多啦大概就是你說講的會大概恐怕會增加到120萬啦\n還會比那個更多是取交集還是取聯集因為我們希望就是說這個平埔原住民身份的認定他們一定要有傳統的這個習俗跟文化跟語言還有就是必須他要認同還要有一個認同這個我們這個族群就是說有文化而且認同這是一塊嘛然後有戶口名簿這是一塊嘛對不對是這全部都算還是要兩個都有才算我們釐清一下\n兩個都有啊 要兩個都有啊要兩個都有才算嘛那你怎麼會變成一百二十萬人你有戶口民部只有九十八萬人嘛然後有 這其中有人會在乎有民族認同 有文化傳承應該是占這全部人的一部分然後這個數字應該會變小啊委員我跟你講齁 你釐清一下有註記的是九十八萬嘛 對啊但是有的他是\n並沒有註記 有一些 甚至像那個南投那邊有很多他們的這個戶籍的這個他可能已經不見了 或者是什麼的對不對還塗黑的 還什麼的 或者是塗黑的嘛對對對 這個又會加進去那你剛剛講說兩個都要一起 這叫交集嘛 對不對我剛剛問你是交集還是聯集啊就是說沒有一定要一起 其中有一項符合都算 那叫聯集啊那到底是哪一個\n都要符合那叫交集對不對那如果有戶口名簿的98萬然後又要認同這些那數字怎麼會變120萬你知道我的意思嗎應該是不會啦應該會變少嘛對不對來補充說明一下各位報告有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人再加上沒有戶口名簿登記但是他仍然是南島語系民族的\n這些就要再加進去這個區塊就更大當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同有族群認同的人我們認為可能會比主持8萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的\n你這樣講你剛剛的闡述跟概念是不太一樣的事情欸因為你講說都要有嘛你又要有戶口名簿的登記且他有族群認同等等那怎麼會超過呢好你即便你講說好有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記有另外的一群人對不對那我實在是我實在是有點我現在覺得有點跳脫不好意思我今天可能要多一點時間啦沒有我再給你補充說明一下啦再跟委員報告所謂的\n大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史記錄可及在本草案的第八條指的是有熟評註記以及其他政府公文書的註記再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內指明他們是南島嶼新民族所以98萬的數據呢其實只是第一款的\n那如果第二款第三款再加進去就會超過98萬人來你把第二款第三款加進去總共是多少人你剛剛主委講120萬對不對是嗎這個是有可能的有可能沒關係預估沒關係你只要抓不要跟到最後差太多就好所以總共的母數大概是120萬嘛對不對差不多\n好那加上後面的條件嘛也就是市民其民族語言習俗傳統文化特性依然持續且民族成員維持族群認同者在這120萬人裡面符合這個後面要件的多少人大概是多少120你來講一下\n報告員這個後面的這些要件呢就是要透過審議的機制對你有一個登記的時間嘛對不對對對所以這個部分的話就沒有辦法做比較精準正確的推估沒關係以你現在就是此時此刻大概是多少人\n我們目前有在做的大概也只有希拉雅族目前已經到了一個階段的成果那如果希拉雅族完成登記的話以希拉雅族在中南部的分部的狀況來看也許希拉雅族就可以增加到大概可以到三四十萬人左右沒有你跟我講你現在比如今年來講符合這樣條件總共有多少人\n因為他是要一組一組一組的來審那我們目前已經比較確定的比較確定比較顯性的嘛對那西賴雅族審查的結果目前我們傾向他這個目前看起來還算明確所以呢以台南高雄屏東等地有首藩駐記者或是平埔駐記者大概可以接近到接三十多萬人三十幾萬好\n我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛\n那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎\n你最起碼我們馬上要做的就是語言文化的這個保存齁這個一定要做了對啊我們自己會裡面就可以來做了\n我現在給這個職位很好的機會因為你看你現在有一包預算好幾億對不對在做原文化保存未來可能短時間內就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人嘛那你增加30萬人你要不要多一點預算嘛我其實就這樣但你心裡要有數字啊對不對我們現在心裡有數啦大概你光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助如果直接適用的話預算大概要增加到11億\n當然要再增加11億嘛對不對那你就講這個就好了嘛我跟你講我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算那你跟行政院長溝通了沒行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎我有跟院長也已經在訂這個法的時候他們也有跟院長講增加多少人我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧我們的族人當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位就好像講二三十萬那也許11億我們就可以\n可以做是这样的\n那所以你心裡你就是用二三十萬的人數去要求十一億的預算是這樣嗎是我們現在院長對你的承諾是什麼他有沒有一口答應就是趕快做不是他院長說本來這個預算的增加這不是研民會的事這是國家本來就是因為要照顧當然啊進來的主委但你要去申請因為你是主管機關嘛對當然就是要我們要估算出來大概要做哪些做哪些然後請求院裡面來協助那到底會不會明確的支援你嘛\n就因為到了第四會期啦這個會期馬上結束之後對不對可能因為這個憲判有時間規定嘛有時間壓力我們一定要在十月前把它處理完處理完之後馬上我們就要編明年的預算嘛對不對那你到底會增加多少然後有沒有政府的保證支持那其實會關乎我們法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力嘛如果你沒有辦法保證說我們政府會多給原住民更多的資源然後讓我們本來現在的山原跟平永安心對不對那到最後這法案就審查的時候很有可能會卡住啊\n然後可能會造成更大的問題嘛 對不對所以我們今天花質詢的時間沒關係 我們後續還有法案審查的時間但是我們希望 第一個 人數的數字要明確第二個 投入的資源要明確第三 其實就是我們到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論也就是說 我憑普足加入之後他們立刻可以獲得什麼樣的保障這些東西我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中都原住民族委員會 你要做好心理準備捏\n對不對要有這樣的一個政策調整就像我們高金委員講的要有能力來處理所以相關的資料今天詢答完之後要再做詳細的補充可以嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.136 --> 00:32.170\n謝謝主席曾志勇主委有請主委辛苦了我們今天討論評普原住民族群身份法草案的審查那有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求要不然你要修原住民身份法要不然你就訂特別法那看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法但沒有關係不管你是要修身份法或者是特別法其實\n\n00:33.110 --> 00:50.161\n就要因應這個保障平埔原住民族群的這樣的一個權益當然就會跟現行的政策資源等等有一些的改變跟差異所以我希望我們的原民會針對這樣的一些改變跟差異能夠有比較清楚的回答這樣大家才會知道後面的節奏啊怎麼樣來做掌握\n\n00:51.261 --> 01:18.211\n這有一個數據來講就是我們現在2025年5月法定員入名也就是現在三員加平員是61.8萬人但平補員平補組預估人數這各種說法都有有的說一二十萬有的說到98.1萬這人的數量會影響政策資源的投入包含政策時間的安排這我想主委不會反對那我就想請問一下因為按照你現在草案裡面你現在講說\n\n01:19.731 --> 01:38.956\n現在第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為熟或者是貧嘛就是熟犯或者是貧婦族嘛那時候的稱謂這樣子的以你們目前的掌握戶口名簿上有這樣子的註記的大概有多少人就是98萬多一點\n\n01:40.953 --> 01:55.140\n有註記的就是98萬多一點98萬多一點所以98萬這個數字從這裡來的對好然後你後面有講其他條件嘛也就是說要市民其所民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續\n\n01:56.221 --> 02:15.645\n且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同嘛對不對因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿然後再來有一些主動的要件嘛比如說我有共同文化然後大家有共同認同對不對這是主觀要件後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集那後面這兩個要件這樣算進去大概會是多少人就會比較多啦大概就是你說講的會大概恐怕會增加到120萬啦\n\n02:23.647 --> 02:49.899\n還會比那個更多是取交集還是取聯集因為我們希望就是說這個平埔原住民身份的認定他們一定要有傳統的這個習俗跟文化跟語言還有就是必須他要認同還要有一個認同這個我們這個族群就是說有文化而且認同這是一塊嘛然後有戶口名簿這是一塊嘛對不對是這全部都算還是要兩個都有才算我們釐清一下\n\n02:50.738 --> 03:16.258\n兩個都有啊要兩個都有啊要兩個都有才算嘛那你怎麼會變成一百二十萬人你有戶口民部只有九十八萬人嘛然後有這其中有人會在乎有民族認同有文化傳承應該是占這全部人的一部分然後這個數字應該會變小啊委員我跟你講齁你釐清一下有註記的是九十八萬嘛對啊但是有的他是\n\n03:17.612 --> 03:41.790\n並沒有註記有一些甚至像那個南投那邊有很多他們的這個戶籍的這個他可能已經不見了或者是什麼的對不對還塗黑的還什麼的或者是塗黑的嘛對對對這個又會加進去那你剛剛講說兩個都要一起這叫交集嘛對不對我剛剛問你是交集還是聯集啊就是說沒有一定要一起其中有一項符合都算那叫聯集啊那到底是哪一個\n\n03:43.188 --> 04:10.301\n都要符合那叫交集對不對那如果有戶口名簿的98萬然後又要認同這些那數字怎麼會變120萬你知道我的意思嗎應該是不會啦應該會變少嘛對不對來補充說明一下各位報告有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人再加上沒有戶口名簿登記但是他仍然是南島語系民族的\n\n04:11.261 --> 04:22.807\n這些就要再加進去這個區塊就更大當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同有族群認同的人我們認為可能會比主持8萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的\n\n04:25.448 --> 04:53.546\n你這樣講你剛剛的闡述跟概念是不太一樣的事情欸因為你講說都要有嘛你又要有戶口名簿的登記且他有族群認同等等那怎麼會超過呢好你即便你講說好有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記有另外的一群人對不對那我實在是我實在是有點我現在覺得有點跳脫不好意思我今天可能要多一點時間啦沒有我再給你補充說明一下啦再跟委員報告所謂的\n\n04:54.500 --> 05:15.929\n大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史記錄可及在本草案的第八條指的是有熟評註記以及其他政府公文書的註記再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內指明他們是南島嶼新民族所以98萬的數據呢其實只是第一款的\n\n05:16.790 --> 05:36.025\n那如果第二款第三款再加進去就會超過98萬人來你把第二款第三款加進去總共是多少人你剛剛主委講120萬對不對是嗎這個是有可能的有可能沒關係預估沒關係你只要抓不要跟到最後差太多就好所以總共的母數大概是120萬嘛對不對差不多\n\n05:37.446 --> 05:50.151\n好那加上後面的條件嘛也就是市民其民族語言習俗傳統文化特性依然持續且民族成員維持族群認同者在這120萬人裡面符合這個後面要件的多少人大概是多少120你來講一下\n\n05:56.704 --> 06:09.595\n報告員這個後面的這些要件呢就是要透過審議的機制對你有一個登記的時間嘛對不對對對所以這個部分的話就沒有辦法做比較精準正確的推估沒關係以你現在就是此時此刻大概是多少人\n\n06:11.138 --> 06:32.137\n我們目前有在做的大概也只有希拉雅族目前已經到了一個階段的成果那如果希拉雅族完成登記的話以希拉雅族在中南部的分部的狀況來看也許希拉雅族就可以增加到大概可以到三四十萬人左右沒有你跟我講你現在比如今年來講符合這樣條件總共有多少人\n\n06:33.098 --> 06:54.417\n因為他是要一組一組一組的來審那我們目前已經比較確定的比較確定比較顯性的嘛對那西賴雅族審查的結果目前我們傾向他這個目前看起來還算明確所以呢以台南高雄屏東等地有首藩駐記者或是平埔駐記者大概可以接近到接三十多萬人三十幾萬好\n\n06:56.840 --> 07:18.542\n我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛\n\n07:19.022 --> 07:47.131\n那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎\n\n07:48.516 --> 07:57.298\n你最起碼我們馬上要做的就是語言文化的這個保存齁這個一定要做了對啊我們自己會裡面就可以來做了\n\n07:59.073 --> 08:26.171\n我現在給這個職位很好的機會因為你看你現在有一包預算好幾億對不對在做原文化保存未來可能短時間內就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人嘛那你增加30萬人你要不要多一點預算嘛我其實就這樣但你心裡要有數字啊對不對我們現在心裡有數啦大概你光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助如果直接適用的話預算大概要增加到11億\n\n08:27.492 --> 08:54.702\n當然要再增加11億嘛對不對那你就講這個就好了嘛我跟你講我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算那你跟行政院長溝通了沒行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎我有跟院長也已經在訂這個法的時候他們也有跟院長講增加多少人我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧我們的族人當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位就好像講二三十萬那也許11億我們就可以\n\n08:56.944 --> 08:58.088\n可以做是这样的\n\n08:58.601 --> 09:27.051\n那所以你心裡你就是用二三十萬的人數去要求十一億的預算是這樣嗎是我們現在院長對你的承諾是什麼他有沒有一口答應就是趕快做不是他院長說本來這個預算的增加這不是研民會的事這是國家本來就是因為要照顧當然啊進來的主委但你要去申請因為你是主管機關嘛對當然就是要我們要估算出來大概要做哪些做哪些然後請求院裡面來協助那到底會不會明確的支援你嘛\n\n09:27.967 --> 09:57.254\n就因為到了第四會期啦這個會期馬上結束之後對不對可能因為這個憲判有時間規定嘛有時間壓力我們一定要在十月前把它處理完處理完之後馬上我們就要編明年的預算嘛對不對那你到底會增加多少然後有沒有政府的保證支持那其實會關乎我們法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力嘛如果你沒有辦法保證說我們政府會多給原住民更多的資源然後讓我們本來現在的山原跟平永安心對不對那到最後這法案就審查的時候很有可能會卡住啊\n\n09:57.694 --> 10:22.354\n然後可能會造成更大的問題嘛對不對所以我們今天花質詢的時間沒關係我們後續還有法案審查的時間但是我們希望第一個人數的數字要明確第二個投入的資源要明確第三其實就是我們到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論也就是說我憑普足加入之後他們立刻可以獲得什麼樣的保障這些東西我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中都原住民族委員會你要做好心理準備捏\n\n10:23.115 --> 10:33.122\n對不對要有這樣的一個政策調整就像我們高金委員講的要有能力來處理所以相關的資料今天詢答完之後要再做詳細的補充可以嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.136,"end":32.17,"text":"謝謝主席 曾志勇主委有請主委辛苦了我們今天討論評普原住民族群身份法草案的審查那有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求要不然你要修原住民身份法要不然你就訂特別法那看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法但沒有關係不管你是要修身份法或者是特別法其實"},{"start":33.11,"end":50.161,"text":"就要因應這個保障平埔原住民族群的這樣的一個權益當然就會跟現行的政策資源等等有一些的改變跟差異所以我希望我們的原民會針對這樣的一些改變跟差異能夠有比較清楚的回答這樣大家才會知道後面的節奏啊怎麼樣來做掌握"},{"start":51.261,"end":78.211,"text":"這有一個數據來講就是我們現在2025年5月法定員入名也就是現在三員加平員是61.8萬人但平補員 平補組預估人數這各種說法都有有的說一二十萬有的說到98.1萬這人的數量會影響政策資源的投入包含政策時間的安排這我想主委不會反對那我就想請問一下因為按照你現在草案裡面你現在講說"},{"start":79.731,"end":98.956,"text":"現在第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為熟或者是貧嘛就是熟犯或者是貧婦族嘛那時候的稱謂這樣子的以你們目前的掌握戶口名簿上有這樣子的註記的大概有多少人就是98萬多一點"},{"start":100.953,"end":115.14,"text":"有註記的就是98萬多一點98萬多一點所以98萬這個數字從這裡來的對好然後你後面有講其他條件嘛也就是說要市民其所民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續"},{"start":116.221,"end":135.645,"text":"且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同嘛對不對因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿然後再來有一些主動的要件嘛比如說我有共同文化然後大家有共同認同對不對這是主觀要件後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集那後面這兩個要件這樣算進去大概會是多少人就會比較多啦大概就是你說講的會大概恐怕會增加到120萬啦"},{"start":143.647,"end":169.899,"text":"還會比那個更多是取交集還是取聯集因為我們希望就是說這個平埔原住民身份的認定他們一定要有傳統的這個習俗跟文化跟語言還有就是必須他要認同還要有一個認同這個我們這個族群就是說有文化而且認同這是一塊嘛然後有戶口名簿這是一塊嘛對不對是這全部都算還是要兩個都有才算我們釐清一下"},{"start":170.738,"end":196.258,"text":"兩個都有啊 要兩個都有啊要兩個都有才算嘛那你怎麼會變成一百二十萬人你有戶口民部只有九十八萬人嘛然後有 這其中有人會在乎有民族認同 有文化傳承應該是占這全部人的一部分然後這個數字應該會變小啊委員我跟你講齁 你釐清一下有註記的是九十八萬嘛 對啊但是有的他是"},{"start":197.612,"end":221.79,"text":"並沒有註記 有一些 甚至像那個南投那邊有很多他們的這個戶籍的這個他可能已經不見了 或者是什麼的對不對還塗黑的 還什麼的 或者是塗黑的嘛對對對 這個又會加進去那你剛剛講說兩個都要一起 這叫交集嘛 對不對我剛剛問你是交集還是聯集啊就是說沒有一定要一起 其中有一項符合都算 那叫聯集啊那到底是哪一個"},{"start":223.188,"end":250.301,"text":"都要符合那叫交集對不對那如果有戶口名簿的98萬然後又要認同這些那數字怎麼會變120萬你知道我的意思嗎應該是不會啦應該會變少嘛對不對來補充說明一下各位報告有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人再加上沒有戶口名簿登記但是他仍然是南島語系民族的"},{"start":251.261,"end":262.807,"text":"這些就要再加進去這個區塊就更大當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同有族群認同的人我們認為可能會比主持8萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的"},{"start":265.448,"end":293.546,"text":"你這樣講你剛剛的闡述跟概念是不太一樣的事情欸因為你講說都要有嘛你又要有戶口名簿的登記且他有族群認同等等那怎麼會超過呢好你即便你講說好有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記有另外的一群人對不對那我實在是我實在是有點我現在覺得有點跳脫不好意思我今天可能要多一點時間啦沒有我再給你補充說明一下啦再跟委員報告所謂的"},{"start":294.5,"end":315.929,"text":"大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史記錄可及在本草案的第八條指的是有熟評註記以及其他政府公文書的註記再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內指明他們是南島嶼新民族所以98萬的數據呢其實只是第一款的"},{"start":316.79,"end":336.025,"text":"那如果第二款第三款再加進去就會超過98萬人來你把第二款第三款加進去總共是多少人你剛剛主委講120萬對不對是嗎這個是有可能的有可能沒關係預估沒關係你只要抓不要跟到最後差太多就好所以總共的母數大概是120萬嘛對不對差不多"},{"start":337.446,"end":350.151,"text":"好那加上後面的條件嘛也就是市民其民族語言習俗傳統文化特性依然持續且民族成員維持族群認同者在這120萬人裡面符合這個後面要件的多少人大概是多少120你來講一下"},{"start":356.704,"end":369.595,"text":"報告員這個後面的這些要件呢就是要透過審議的機制對你有一個登記的時間嘛對不對對對所以這個部分的話就沒有辦法做比較精準正確的推估沒關係以你現在就是此時此刻大概是多少人"},{"start":371.138,"end":392.137,"text":"我們目前有在做的大概也只有希拉雅族目前已經到了一個階段的成果那如果希拉雅族完成登記的話以希拉雅族在中南部的分部的狀況來看也許希拉雅族就可以增加到大概可以到三四十萬人左右沒有你跟我講你現在比如今年來講符合這樣條件總共有多少人"},{"start":393.098,"end":414.417,"text":"因為他是要一組一組一組的來審那我們目前已經比較確定的比較確定比較顯性的嘛對那西賴雅族審查的結果目前我們傾向他這個目前看起來還算明確所以呢以台南高雄屏東等地有首藩駐記者或是平埔駐記者大概可以接近到接三十多萬人三十幾萬好"},{"start":416.84,"end":438.542,"text":"我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛"},{"start":439.022,"end":467.131,"text":"那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎"},{"start":468.516,"end":477.298,"text":"你最起碼我們馬上要做的就是語言文化的這個保存齁這個一定要做了對啊我們自己會裡面就可以來做了"},{"start":479.073,"end":506.171,"text":"我現在給這個職位很好的機會因為你看你現在有一包預算好幾億對不對在做原文化保存未來可能短時間內就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人嘛那你增加30萬人你要不要多一點預算嘛我其實就這樣但你心裡要有數字啊對不對我們現在心裡有數啦大概你光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助如果直接適用的話預算大概要增加到11億"},{"start":507.492,"end":534.702,"text":"當然要再增加11億嘛對不對那你就講這個就好了嘛我跟你講我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算那你跟行政院長溝通了沒行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎我有跟院長也已經在訂這個法的時候他們也有跟院長講增加多少人我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧我們的族人當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位就好像講二三十萬那也許11億我們就可以"},{"start":536.944,"end":538.088,"text":"可以做是这样的"},{"start":538.601,"end":567.051,"text":"那所以你心裡你就是用二三十萬的人數去要求十一億的預算是這樣嗎是我們現在院長對你的承諾是什麼他有沒有一口答應就是趕快做不是他院長說本來這個預算的增加這不是研民會的事這是國家本來就是因為要照顧當然啊進來的主委但你要去申請因為你是主管機關嘛對當然就是要我們要估算出來大概要做哪些做哪些然後請求院裡面來協助那到底會不會明確的支援你嘛"},{"start":567.967,"end":597.254,"text":"就因為到了第四會期啦這個會期馬上結束之後對不對可能因為這個憲判有時間規定嘛有時間壓力我們一定要在十月前把它處理完處理完之後馬上我們就要編明年的預算嘛對不對那你到底會增加多少然後有沒有政府的保證支持那其實會關乎我們法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力嘛如果你沒有辦法保證說我們政府會多給原住民更多的資源然後讓我們本來現在的山原跟平永安心對不對那到最後這法案就審查的時候很有可能會卡住啊"},{"start":597.694,"end":622.354,"text":"然後可能會造成更大的問題嘛 對不對所以我們今天花質詢的時間沒關係 我們後續還有法案審查的時間但是我們希望 第一個 人數的數字要明確第二個 投入的資源要明確第三 其實就是我們到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論也就是說 我憑普足加入之後他們立刻可以獲得什麼樣的保障這些東西我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中都原住民族委員會 你要做好心理準備捏"},{"start":623.115,"end":633.122,"text":"對不對要有這樣的一個政策調整就像我們高金委員講的要有能力來處理所以相關的資料今天詢答完之後要再做詳細的補充可以嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時27分）謝謝主席，有請曾智勇主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你已經到了，很好，謝謝。主委辛苦了！我們今天討論平埔原住民族群身分法草案的審查，有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清，因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求，要不然你就修原住民身分法，要不然你就訂特別法，看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法。但沒有關係，不管你是要修身分法或者是特別法的方式，為因應保障平埔原住民族群的權益，當然就會讓現行的政策、資源等等有一些改變跟差異。所以我希望原民會針對這樣子的一些改變跟差異，能夠有比較清楚的回答，這樣大家才會知道要怎麼樣掌握後面的節奏。","有一個數據，我們現在2025年5月法定原住民，也就是山原加平原是61.8萬人，但平埔族預估人數各種說法都有，有的說一、二十萬，有的說到98.1萬，人的數量會影響政策資源的投入，包含政策時間的安排，這我想主委不會反對。我想請問一下，因為按照你現在草案裡面，你講說第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本，其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為「熟」或者是「平」，就是那時候的稱謂熟番或是平埔族。以你們目前的掌握，戶口名簿上有這樣註記的，大概有多少人？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是九十八萬多一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：有註記的就是九十八萬多一點？所以98萬這個數字是從這裡來的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。然後你後面又講其他條件，也就是要釋明其所屬民族語言、習俗、傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續，且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同者，對不對？因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿，再來有一些主動的要件，比如說有共同文化，大家有共同認同，對不對？這是主觀要件，後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集，後面這兩個要件算進去，大概會是多少人？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就會比較多，大概就是你所講的，恐怕會增加到120萬人。"],["牛委員煦庭：還會比那個更多？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：是取交集還是取聯集？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們希望平埔原住民身分的認定，他們一定要有傳統的習俗、文化跟語言，還有必須要有對這個族群的認同。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是有文化而且認同，這是一塊；有戶口名簿，這是一塊。對不對？是這全部都算，還是要兩個都有才算？我們釐清一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：要兩個都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：要兩個都有才算，那怎麼會變成120萬人？有戶口名簿只有98萬人，這其中有人有民族認同、有文化傳承，應該是占全部人的一部分，這個數字應該會變小。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，我跟你講……"],["牛委員煦庭：你釐清一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：有註記的是98萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！98萬。"],["曾主任委員智勇：但是有的並沒有註記，有一些甚至像南投那邊有很多他們的戶籍……"],["牛委員煦庭：它可能已經不見了，或者是什麼了，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還塗黑的，還什麼的。"],["牛委員煦庭：或者是塗黑的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個部分又會加進去。"],["牛委員煦庭：你剛剛說兩個都要一起，這叫交集，對不對？我剛剛問你，是交集還是聯集？就是說沒有一定要一起，其中有一項符合都算，叫聯集。到底是哪一個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：都要符合。"],["牛委員煦庭：都要符合？那叫交集，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果有戶口名簿的是98萬，然後又要認同這些，那數字怎麼會變120萬，你知道我的意思嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該會變少，對不對？請補充說明一下。"],["曾專門委員興中：跟委員報告，有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人，再加上沒有戶口名簿登記，但仍然是南島語系民族的這一些人，這個區塊就更大。當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同、有族群認同的人，我們認為會比98萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的。"],["牛委員煦庭：你這樣講跟剛剛的闡述和概念是不太一樣的事情，因為你說都要有，又要有戶口名簿的登記，且有族群認同等等，那怎麼會超過呢？好，即便有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記，有另外的一群人，對不對？我覺得我要有點跳脫，不好意思，今天可能要多一點時間，我再給你補充說明一下。"],["曾專門委員興中：再跟委員報告，所謂的大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史紀錄可稽，在本草案的第八條，指的是有「熟」、「平」註記以及其他政府公文書的註記，再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內，指明他們是南島語系民族，所以98萬的數據其實只是第一款的部分，如果第二款、第三款再加進去，就會超過98萬人。"],["牛委員煦庭：你把第二款、第三款加進去，總共是多少人？剛剛主委講120萬，對不對？"],["曾專門委員興中：這個是有可能的，這是我們預估的。"],["牛委員煦庭：有可能，預估的沒關係，至少不要跟最後差太多就好，所以總共的母數大概是120萬，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：差不多。"],["牛委員煦庭：加上後面的條件，也就是釋明其所屬民族語言、習俗、傳統等文化特徵依然持續，且民族成員維持族群認同者，在這120萬人裡面符合後面要件的有多少人？"],["曾專門委員興中：報告委員，後面的要件就要透過審議的機制瞭解結果再做確認。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦！有一個登記的時間，對不對？"],["曾專門委員興中：對，所以這個部分的話，就沒有辦法做比較精準、正確的推估，但是我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，以現在此時此刻，大概是多少人？"],["曾專門委員興中：我們目前在做的大概也只有西拉雅族，目前已經到了一個階段的成果，如果西拉雅族完成登記的話，以西拉雅族在中南部的分布狀況來看，西拉雅族大概可以增加到三、四十萬人左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，你跟我講現在，比如以今年來講，符合這樣條件的總共多少人？"],["曾專門委員興中：跟委員報告，因為是要一族、一族的來審，我們目前已經比較確定的是西拉雅族審查的結果……"],["牛委員煦庭：比較確定、比較顯性的。"],["曾專門委員興中：西拉雅族審查的結果，目前看起來還算明確，以臺南、高雄、屏東等地，有熟番註記者或是平埔註記者，大概可以到接近三十多萬人。"],["牛委員煦庭：三十幾萬。我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題，就是因為第一個，認定標準明確，現在已經有若干清楚的認定標準了。認定標準之後，就是估計人數，為什麼要估計人數？因為人數決定接下來的資源。今天立了這個新的專法之後，政府當然就要挹注新的資源進來，不然就會造成很多現有原住民族委員擔心的所謂排擠效應。","在政府決定下多少資源之後，才能去思考合理的管理或照顧，及相關的政策模式要怎麼樣來安排，然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間，其實這是一環扣著一環來的。以現在來講，總母數可能有120萬，顯性短期內會符合所有認定要件的可能會有20萬到30萬左右，請問這個專法如果順利三讀通過之後，國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增的資源？主委，你心裡有個數字嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：最起碼我們馬上要做的，就是語言文化的保存，這個一定要做，這個部分我們會裡面就可以來做了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在給主委一個很好的機會，因為你現在有一包預算好幾億，在做語言文化保存，未來可能短時間內，就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人。那增加30萬人，要不要多一點預算？我請教就這樣，但你心裡要有數字，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們現在心裡有數啦！光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助，如果直接適用的話，預算大概要增加到11億。"],["牛委員煦庭：大概要再增加11億，對不對？那你就講這個就好了嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字，因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算。你跟行政院長溝通了沒？行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在訂這個法的時候，也已經跟院長講，增加多少人，我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧族人，當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位，就剛剛講二、三十萬，也許11億我們就可以來做。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你是用二、三十萬的人數去要求11億的預算嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在院長對你的承諾是什麼？他有沒有一口答應、就是趕快做？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，院長說本來這個預算的增加，不是原民會的事，這是國家本來就是要照顧進來的族人。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然啊！但你要去申請，因為你是主管機關，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：當然就是我們要估算出來，看大概要做哪些，然後請求院裡面來協助。"],["牛委員煦庭：到底會不會明確的支援你？因為到了第4會期，這個會期馬上結束之後，可能因為憲判有時間規定，有時間壓力，我們一定要在10月前把它處理完，處理完之後，我們馬上就要編明年的預算，對不對？那你到底會增加多少？然後有沒有政府的保證支持？其實會關乎法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力。如果你沒有辦法保證政府會多給原住民更多的資源讓現在的山原跟平原很安心，到最後法案審查就很有可能會卡住，然後可能會造成更大的問題，對不對？","我們今天花質詢的時間，沒關係，後續還有法案審查時間，但是我們希望第一個，人數的數據要明確；第二個，投入的資源要明確；第三，到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論，也就是平埔族加入之後，他們可以立刻獲得什麼樣的保障？這些部分我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中，原住民族委員會要做好心理準備，要有這樣的政策調整，就像高金委員講的要有能力來處理。相關的資料今天詢答完之後，要再做詳細的補充，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝主委，辛苦了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝牛召委的質詢，也謝謝主委。","繼續請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","張智倫","蘇巧慧","丁學忠"],"page_start":137,"meetingDate":["2025-06-30"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平\n埔原住民族群身分法草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1146401_00003"}}}