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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等20人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員葉元之等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三十、委員馬文君等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-07-07","start_time":"2025-07-07T09:40:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-07T09:55:06+08:00","duration":887,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"163006","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163006","tool":"pyannote","id":"163006-pyannote"},"job_id":"i7hnzUDV2PFja4uA","queued_at":"2025-07-07 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00:00:50,548\n國際公約的認定的人權問題那我在環境部諮詢的時候就發現說他們對能源貧窮這件事情其實才剛開始探索但部長這不是是能源問題這些因經濟弱勢而攪不起電費瓦斯費的家庭早就已經延伸更多的社福課題因為只要每升高一度\n\n3\n00:00:51,004 --> 00:01:20,109\n人際的一個暴力的話會增加4到6%所以我們就會有家庭暴力的問題甚至慢性疾病衛生條件惡化甚至會影響到兩群人一個叫做老人一個叫做嬰幼兒因為他們的死亡風險高於一般人在一個酷熱的一個夏天裡面那所以根據歐盟跟其他國家的經驗的話處理能源貧窮最重要的第一步就是要\n\n4\n00:01:21,235 --> 00:01:40,482\n清楚的來釐清誰是需要幫助的人那他們的資源實際需求是什麼因為貧窮不只是沒有錢各國的政策也不是只有發錢還會有搭配的服務跟資源所以我想請教部長這些能源貧窮的族群衛福部在社會救助法的修法草案有沒有納入考量\n\n5\n00:01:41,288 --> 00:01:58,941\n好,我想我先回答前面的部分,第一個就是為了積極預備極端氣候變遷對獨居老人的影響,我想如果有家人的話,大概會做一點調配。那我們也督導地方政府,用定期掌握狹內獨居老人的狀況。\n\n6\n00:02:00,902 --> 00:02:27,664\n提供那個災害防救單位獨基島的名冊同時也要結合民間的團體志工社工人員在氣候變遷很大或天然災害的時候加強關懷服務而且必要時也必須要跟他做一個調整我想這個部分謝謝委員提出這個問題部長這就是我最擔心的你剛剛回答的為什麼因為現行的社福體力\n\n7\n00:02:28,428 --> 00:02:51,658\n體制裡面到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出清楚的定義你剛剛講只有講獨居老人可是我剛剛講說最大的受害可能有會產生家庭暴力的問題甚至事實上是對於嬰幼兒還有跟老人一樣都事實上是他的死亡風險是高於一般人所以到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出一個相對的\n\n8\n00:02:52,639 --> 00:03:11,950\n很清楚的定義甚至有沒有相關的法規或政策指引如果聽你這樣講的話我們就來談第二個也就是說根據台大風險中心今年的報告經濟弱勢家庭中有兩成是因為繳不起電費瓦斯費被斷電斷瓦斯那還有兩成是連\n\n9\n00:03:13,991 --> 00:03:39,687\n節能加電補助都申請不到為什麼因為他有自配的款項所以他根本就是沒有辦法他連自配款項都拿不出來當然也申請不到所以很多弱勢租戶住在違建老舊通風差的房子裡邊所以就會變成什麼越窮越熱越熱越窮的一個惡性循環我在環境部質詢的時候就已經強調氣候衝擊下最脆弱的不是身體\n\n10\n00:03:40,919 --> 00:04:07,859\n那個虛弱的人事實上還包括長期被社會福利系統呢遺漏的弱勢族群所以剛剛部長講的就會是跟環境部現在跟我們提出來說有啊我在內政部的大數據我找出撈出獨居者的名單當中去找人啊可是部長這很明顯就是我們社福議題為什麼因為環境部不可能知道你們針對社福到底那個貧窮甚至到底能源\n\n11\n00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:27,894\n裡面切審的這些人他根本不知道所以要靠我們衛福部可是衛福部有沒有比環境部有更有效的策略而不是在獨居名單去找人所以是不是能夠主動鎖定這些能源貧窮者能不能提出具體的方案而不是只靠私辦\n\n12\n00:04:28,915 --> 00:04:53,737\n所以我具體要求請衛福部從全國的社福的弱勢家庭中所以我們不要再增加家庭暴力的問題甚至不要因為熱而死亡所以啟動能源調查然後辨識出能源弱勢族群釐清這些人的脆弱結構跟原因是什麼所以部長你覺得這個事情的規劃你大概要多久的時間謝謝委員的關心我想我們\n\n13\n00:04:54,798 --> 00:05:18,043\n我們衛福部有依照這個因應氣候變遷制健康衝擊政策白皮書來增強遊民低中收入戶面對極端氣候制調適能力那當然本部為了確保這些他們的基本的生存權也有訂定專案的計畫那督導直轄市縣市政府那個要關懷那如果有高溫的情況立刻立刻啟動高溫關懷機制\n\n14\n00:05:21,724 --> 00:05:34,164\n是部長是不是先至少第一步先達到就是到底誰是能源貧窮者先把定義出來否則就會變成環境部他會依著你的概念然後就只撈\n\n15\n00:05:35,047 --> 00:05:54,065\n獨居長者出來可是其他該要照顧的人沒照顧到所以一個月時間足夠嗎把他定義出來之後還有相關的規劃我請你履次那個齁沒關係你講沒關係我做COVID的齁好那履次你這邊有辦法一個月可以嗎\n\n16\n00:05:55,326 --> 00:06:21,048\n非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心確實現在目前整個全球的這一個氣候變遷對於我們弱勢者確實是很大的一個衝擊那我想這個大概兩個部分一個是他的收入面另外一個支出面支出面的部分我跟委員報告有一個統計數據是公研院他跟家福他們那邊有一個合作就是說這一個低收中低收的家戶能源支出占他的總支出大概18.1這是第一個數據\n\n17\n00:06:21,849 --> 00:06:48,653\n另外第二個數據現在就是說他現在目前整個這個低收中低收跟社會弱勢民眾其實他們裡面的很多家電其實事實上恐怕都有這一個事實上都有能源效率的問題那我跟委員簡單報告其實部長對這個問題他之前就有交辦我在部裡面我在那個我們社政這邊其實有成立一個專案那個相關的一個部分我現在已經請我們相關的就是包括我們的社會救助的這些民眾\n\n18\n00:06:49,954 --> 00:07:07,226\n你們也在開會所以一個月規劃可以沒問題我們會把我們相關的規劃成果因為把經濟弱勢者無家者社福機構像安置機構長照機構甚至脆弱家庭跟身障跟罕見疾病這些能不能是定義為能源貧窮者你們可以把它定義出來之後\n\n19\n00:07:07,806 --> 00:07:32,968\n接下配套是什麼在一個月內我簡單回覆一下就兩個部分分析程式有兩個一個是機構另外一個是家戶這裡面我們都要嚴格來予定義再麻煩部長早在2017年兩公約審查就已經要求說台灣必須訂定無家可歸者的福利跟人權法而且要建立一套全國方法一致的\n\n20\n00:07:33,809 --> 00:07:37,416\n統計資料庫來反映無家者的實際人數需求跟生活狀況可現在\n\n21\n00:07:39,625 --> 00:07:58,157\n你的進度是什麼2017年我們兩公約在國際委員審查的時候就已經要做到這兩件事情那目前我們衛福部的進度是什麼有做到嗎我跟委員報告我們現在目前我知道民團他們這邊有現在目前的一個相關的一個統計那我跟委員報告我們現在目前有列冊全台灣應該我記得有三千多位\n\n22\n00:08:10,786 --> 00:08:12,888\n因為民間團體就大概指出說九成的無家者是沒有中低收入的身份\n\n23\n00:08:31,585 --> 00:08:53,991\n七成的無家者是沒有任何福利身份也沒有領到任何的福利津貼那所以我就不知道說政府的精準的資料庫你怎麼去回應人家民間團體可以調出來可是調查出來可是你們卻不知道我不知道說你們都沒有辦法提出只有要求地方列冊就足夠作為政策依據嗎我不認為齁\n\n24\n00:08:55,325 --> 00:09:16,441\n再提到專法衛福部在2019年就已經有委託研究案學者也寫好了寫好了整部的無家者的一個專法的草案卻到現在沒有任何後續的一個行動2023年呢關於我們的社會救助法的研究案也是一樣的結論也就我有看到你們最新的社救法的一個草案\n\n25\n00:09:17,101 --> 00:09:41,364\n裡面增加了無家者的一個條文可是沒有專章也沒有法定身份也沒有法定預算中央政府的責任也非常有限說實在進步幅度非常小部長你覺得增加一條條文真的就能夠達到國際人權委員會要求的專法的效果嗎因為他結論性意見37點次43點次都有一些要求可是你覺得一條條文你就可以達到嗎\n\n26\n00:09:42,899 --> 00:09:58,490\n我想這個都可以研議啦那這幾個計畫已經都完成了可是你們版本看起來就是只有一條條文人家第一個要專法那至少也要有專章可是我們現在看到你們的大概沒有專\n\n27\n00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:10,754\n專章去做這個來做說明是報告委員那個我們現在目前簡單三點我們現在目前所增加的不是只有一條而已我們有增加有增加三條這是第一點一樣的三條能夠回應我們因為兩公約接下來又要審查國際又要來進行國際審查了\n\n28\n00:10:19,817 --> 00:10:46,097\n包委員我們這個其實對於那個是不是會成為遊民的這個成因其實老實說非常非常廣泛那這裡面除了經濟議題之外其實也有牽涉到譬如像有關於居住居住的還有就業等等這些相關的一些的這些部分那至於委員所說的是不是有必要來成立專章這個我想我們可以再來延誤好不好市長我覺得台灣沒有無家者的專法可是\n\n29\n00:10:46,577 --> 00:10:53,585\n是不是也就是導致我們的社安網第二期的計畫裡邊完全資質未提無家者可歸\n\n30\n00:10:55,137 --> 00:11:23,559\n的問題那有沒有法定也沒有法定預算也沒有行動方案你們現在真的草案裡邊中央的責任非常的薄弱而且看不到全國性系統性前瞻性的積極輔導工作規範安置體系跟預防措施還要訂相關的配套的辦法散落到地方的無家者偵測導致地方有錢才做沒有錢就沒事怎麼可能可以處理跨縣市流動的無家者的問題\n\n31\n00:11:24,199 --> 00:11:47,256\n而且現在連全國一致的調查機制都沒有根本不符合國際基本的治理要求美英日韓早就在無家者有專法而且授權從中央層級到地方層級而且我們現在比韓國晚10年然後比日本晚20年所以我要問的是無家者的法定福利身份跟預算是否要納入社會救助法專章\n\n32\n00:11:48,106 --> 00:12:04,151\n再等專法立法後再轉過去我覺得期待是應該你們版本要考量這樣如果要直接訂專法的話衛福部有沒有時間表今年國家人權報告就要送出了那你們到底要不要把立法的成立法的期程寫進去對\n\n33\n00:12:05,931 --> 00:12:19,345\n人權公約的審查要清楚的交代這個我期待你們要這樣子做為什麼因為我們當然希望你不能夠說都不對應人家結論性意見因為時間關係我就不讓你們回答那部長現在還要談的是真正排除貧窮者的不是貧窮縣\n\n34\n00:12:26,011 --> 00:12:54,159\n而是你們社會救法裡面那套過時的虛擬收入全世界找不到其他國家用這種方式虛擬一個不存在的收入為了防避而造成許多窮人呢申請不到低收入戶那這條制度是來自1963年戒嚴時期2004年才被寫進母法現在只是因為方便計算根本沒有什麼制度設計所以到今天這還不是\n\n35\n00:12:55,519 --> 00:13:24,449\n轉型正義的問題嗎你們說查不到地下經濟就拿虛擬虛擬收入來防弊結果犧牲的是最貧困的人到2025年我們還要用61年前的方法來判定誰夠窮所以去年7月陳時中政委就已經找你們跟民間修法聯盟開會了然後呢明確要求衛福部要算出來廢除虛擬收入之後增加多少財政成本跟受益人數所以我要先問部長你們算出來了嗎\n\n36\n00:13:26,044 --> 00:13:49,413\n目前算出來了嗎報告委員我們現在目前有做相關的研議但我也要必須要報告委員其實這裡面你也知道就是說我想我們都知道全世界現在目前整個這個所謂地下經濟的這個部分那你現在目前這個我們真的很低而且只有2.4%可是大概照理來講如果我們按照貧窮線大概會到13%\n\n37\n00:13:52,828 --> 00:14:16,730\n報告委員我們現在目前如果按照那個有其他那個津貼的那個收入的那個補助的話涵蓋人口是8.36我們涵蓋就是那個中低收入老人生活津貼還有那個聲音障礙者津貼還有那個弱勢兒少補助如果以這個也把它算進來的話我們算是8.36老東部在那場會議當中也說即便廢除虛擬收入加上其他的修法項目\n\n38\n00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:42,878\n也只會多出38萬人業務還是可以承擔那你們自己研究也說至少會有5萬人立刻可以取得低收入資格如果你廢除掉那一條的話那這5萬人會帶到底帶來多少的財政影響因為時間關係所以請你們一週內最多兩週內是不是把資料給我也把一半一併把計算方式提供市長這邊可以嗎OK好OK謝謝謝謝市長謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6798\t9741\t主席麻煩我們的邱部長好有請邱部長部長早部長上週氣溫連續都飆到37度體感超過40度那極端氣候已經事實上是常態了氣候調適也是\n28385\t50548\t國際公約的認定的人權問題那我在環境部諮詢的時候就發現說他們對能源貧窮這件事情其實才剛開始探索但部長這不是是能源問題這些因經濟弱勢而攪不起電費瓦斯費的家庭早就已經延伸更多的社福課題因為只要每升高一度\n51004\t80109\t人際的一個暴力的話會增加4到6%所以我們就會有家庭暴力的問題甚至慢性疾病衛生條件惡化甚至會影響到兩群人一個叫做老人一個叫做嬰幼兒因為他們的死亡風險高於一般人在一個酷熱的一個夏天裡面那所以根據歐盟跟其他國家的經驗的話處理能源貧窮最重要的第一步就是要\n81235\t100482\t清楚的來釐清誰是需要幫助的人那他們的資源實際需求是什麼因為貧窮不只是沒有錢各國的政策也不是只有發錢還會有搭配的服務跟資源所以我想請教部長這些能源貧窮的族群衛福部在社會救助法的修法草案有沒有納入考量\n101288\t118941\t好,我想我先回答前面的部分,第一個就是為了積極預備極端氣候變遷對獨居老人的影響,我想如果有家人的話,大概會做一點調配。那我們也督導地方政府,用定期掌握狹內獨居老人的狀況。\n120902\t147664\t提供那個災害防救單位獨基島的名冊同時也要結合民間的團體志工社工人員在氣候變遷很大或天然災害的時候加強關懷服務而且必要時也必須要跟他做一個調整我想這個部分謝謝委員提出這個問題部長這就是我最擔心的你剛剛回答的為什麼因為現行的社福體力\n148428\t171658\t體制裡面到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出清楚的定義你剛剛講只有講獨居老人可是我剛剛講說最大的受害可能有會產生家庭暴力的問題甚至事實上是對於嬰幼兒還有跟老人一樣都事實上是他的死亡風險是高於一般人所以到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出一個相對的\n172639\t191950\t很清楚的定義 甚至有沒有相關的法規或政策指引 如果聽你這樣講的話我們就來談第二個 也就是說根據台大風險中心今年的報告 經濟弱勢家庭中有兩成是因為繳不起電費瓦斯費被斷電斷瓦斯 那還有兩成是連\n193991\t219687\t節能加電補助都申請不到 為什麼因為他有自配的款項 所以他根本就是沒有辦法他連自配款項都拿不出來 當然也申請不到所以很多弱勢租戶住在違建 老舊 通風差的房子裡邊所以就會變成什麼 越窮越熱 越熱越窮的一個惡性循環我在環境部質詢的時候就已經強調氣候衝擊下最脆弱的不是身體\n220919\t247859\t那個虛弱的人事實上還包括長期被社會福利系統呢遺漏的弱勢族群所以剛剛部長講的就會是跟環境部現在跟我們提出來說有啊我在內政部的大數據我找出撈出獨居者的名單當中去找人啊可是部長這很明顯就是我們社福議題為什麼因為環境部不可能知道你們針對社福到底那個貧窮甚至到底能源\n248960\t267894\t裡面切審的這些人他根本不知道所以要靠我們衛福部可是衛福部有沒有比環境部有更有效的策略而不是在獨居名單去找人所以是不是能夠主動鎖定這些能源貧窮者能不能提出具體的方案而不是只靠私辦\n268915\t293737\t所以我具體要求請衛福部從全國的社福的弱勢家庭中所以我們不要再增加家庭暴力的問題甚至不要因為熱而死亡所以啟動能源調查然後辨識出能源弱勢族群釐清這些人的脆弱結構跟原因是什麼所以部長你覺得這個事情的規劃你大概要多久的時間謝謝委員的關心我想我們\n294798\t318043\t我們衛福部有依照這個因應氣候變遷制健康衝擊政策白皮書來增強遊民低中收入戶面對極端氣候制調適能力那當然本部為了確保這些他們的基本的生存權也有訂定專案的計畫那督導直轄市縣市政府那個要關懷那如果有高溫的情況立刻立刻啟動高溫關懷機制\n321724\t334164\t是部長是不是先至少第一步先達到就是到底誰是能源貧窮者先把定義出來否則就會變成環境部他會依著你的概念然後就只撈\n335047\t354065\t獨居長者出來可是其他該要照顧的人沒照顧到所以一個月時間足夠嗎把他定義出來之後還有相關的規劃我請你履次那個齁沒關係你講沒關係我做COVID的齁好那履次你這邊有辦法一個月可以嗎\n355326\t381048\t非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心確實現在目前整個全球的這一個氣候變遷對於我們弱勢者確實是很大的一個衝擊那我想這個大概兩個部分一個是他的收入面另外一個支出面支出面的部分我跟委員報告有一個統計數據是公研院他跟家福他們那邊有一個合作就是說這一個低收中低收的家戶能源支出占他的總支出大概18.1這是第一個數據\n381849\t408653\t另外第二個數據現在就是說他現在目前整個這個低收中低收跟社會弱勢民眾其實他們裡面的很多家電其實事實上恐怕都有這一個事實上都有能源效率的問題那我跟委員簡單報告其實部長對這個問題他之前就有交辦我在部裡面我在那個我們社政這邊其實有成立一個專案那個相關的一個部分我現在已經請我們相關的就是包括我們的社會救助的這些民眾\n409954\t427226\t你們也在開會 所以一個月規劃可以 沒問題我們會把我們相關的規劃成果因為把經濟弱勢者 無家者 社福機構像安置機構 長照機構甚至脆弱家庭跟身障跟罕見疾病這些能不能是定義為能源貧窮者你們可以把它定義出來之後\n427806\t452968\t接下配套是什麼 在一個月內我簡單回覆一下 就兩個部分分析程式有兩個 一個是機構 另外一個是家戶這裡面我們都要嚴格來予定義再麻煩 部長早在2017年兩公約審查就已經要求說台灣必須訂定無家可歸者的福利跟人權法而且要建立一套全國方法一致的\n453809\t457416\t統計資料庫來反映無家者的實際人數需求跟生活狀況可現在\n459625\t478157\t你的進度是什麼2017年我們兩公約在國際委員審查的時候就已經要做到這兩件事情那目前我們衛福部的進度是什麼有做到嗎我跟委員報告我們現在目前我知道民團他們這邊有現在目前的一個相關的一個統計那我跟委員報告我們現在目前有列冊全台灣應該我記得有三千多位\n490786\t492888\t因為民間團體就大概指出說九成的無家者是沒有中低收入的身份\n511585\t533991\t七成的無家者是沒有任何福利身份也沒有領到任何的福利津貼那所以我就不知道說政府的精準的資料庫你怎麼去回應人家民間團體可以調出來可是調查出來可是你們卻不知道我不知道說你們都沒有辦法提出只有要求地方列冊就足夠作為政策依據嗎我不認為齁\n535325\t556441\t再提到專法 衛福部在2019年就已經有委託研究案學者也寫好了 寫好了整部的無家者的一個專法的草案卻到現在沒有任何後續的一個行動2023年呢 關於我們的社會救助法的研究案也是一樣的結論也就我有看到你們最新的社救法的一個草案\n557101\t581364\t裡面增加了無家者的一個條文可是沒有專章也沒有法定身份也沒有法定預算中央政府的責任也非常有限說實在進步幅度非常小部長你覺得增加一條條文真的就能夠達到國際人權委員會要求的專法的效果嗎因為他結論性意見37點次43點次都有一些要求可是你覺得一條條文你就可以達到嗎\n582899\t598490\t我想這個都可以研議啦那這幾個計畫已經都完成了可是你們版本看起來就是只有一條條文人家第一個要專法那至少也要有專章可是我們現在看到你們的大概沒有專\n599880\t610754\t專章去做這個來做說明是 報告委員那個我們現在目前簡單三點我們現在目前所增加的不是只有一條而已我們有增加有增加三條這是第一點一樣的三條能夠回應我們因為兩公約接下來又要審查國際又要來進行國際審查了\n619817\t646097\t包委員我們這個其實對於那個是不是會成為遊民的這個成因其實老實說非常非常廣泛那這裡面除了經濟議題之外其實也有牽涉到譬如像有關於居住居住的還有就業等等這些相關的一些的這些部分那至於委員所說的是不是有必要來成立專章這個我想我們可以再來延誤好不好市長我覺得台灣沒有無家者的專法可是\n646577\t653585\t是不是也就是導致我們的社安網第二期的計畫裡邊完全資質未提無家者可歸\n655137\t683559\t的問題那有沒有法定 也沒有法定預算也沒有行動方案你們現在真的草案裡邊中央的責任非常的薄弱而且看不到全國性 系統性 前瞻性的積極輔導工作規範安置體系跟預防措施還要訂相關的配套的辦法散落到地方的無家者偵測導致地方有錢才做沒有錢就沒事怎麼可能可以處理跨縣市流動的無家者的問題\n684199\t707256\t而且現在連全國一致的調查機制都沒有根本不符合國際基本的治理要求美英日韓早就在無家者有專法而且授權從中央層級到地方層級而且我們現在比韓國晚10年然後比日本晚20年所以我要問的是無家者的法定福利身份跟預算是否要納入社會救助法專章\n708106\t724151\t再等專法立法後再轉過去我覺得期待是應該你們版本要考量這樣如果要直接訂專法的話衛福部有沒有時間表今年國家人權報告就要送出了那你們到底要不要把立法的成立法的期程寫進去對\n725931\t739345\t人權公約的審查要清楚的交代這個我期待你們要這樣子做為什麼因為我們當然希望你不能夠說都不對應人家結論性意見因為時間關係我就不讓你們回答那部長現在還要談的是真正排除貧窮者的不是貧窮縣\n746011\t774159\t而是你們社會救法裡面那套過時的虛擬收入全世界找不到其他國家用這種方式虛擬一個不存在的收入為了防避而造成許多窮人呢申請不到低收入戶那這條制度是來自1963年戒嚴時期2004年才被寫進母法現在只是因為方便計算根本沒有什麼制度設計所以到今天這還不是\n775519\t804449\t轉型正義的問題嗎你們說查不到地下經濟就拿虛擬虛擬收入來防弊結果犧牲的是最貧困的人到2025年我們還要用61年前的方法來判定誰夠窮所以去年7月陳時中政委就已經找你們跟民間修法聯盟開會了然後呢明確要求衛福部要算出來廢除虛擬收入之後增加多少財政成本跟受益人數所以我要先問部長你們算出來了嗎\n806044\t829413\t目前算出來了嗎報告委員我們現在目前有做相關的研議但我也要必須要報告委員其實這裡面你也知道就是說我想我們都知道全世界現在目前整個這個所謂地下經濟的這個部分那你現在目前這個我們真的很低而且只有2.4%可是大概照理來講如果我們按照貧窮線大概會到13%\n832828\t856730\t報告委員我們現在目前如果按照那個有其他那個津貼的那個收入的那個補助的話涵蓋人口是8.36我們涵蓋就是那個中低收入老人生活津貼還有那個聲音障礙者津貼還有那個弱勢兒少補助如果以這個也把它算進來的話我們算是8.36老東部在那場會議當中也說即便廢除虛擬收入加上其他的修法項目\n857350\t882878\t也只會多出38萬人業務還是可以承擔那你們自己研究也說至少會有5萬人立刻可以取得低收入資格如果你廢除掉那一條的話那這5萬人會帶到底帶來多少的財政影響因為時間關係所以請你們一週內最多兩週內是不是把資料給我也把一半一併把計算方式提供市長這邊可以嗎OK好OK謝謝謝謝市長謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"主席麻煩我們的邱部長好有請邱部長部長早部長上週氣溫連續都飆到37度體感超過40度那極端氣候已經事實上是常態了氣候調適也是\n國際公約的認定的人權問題那我在環境部諮詢的時候就發現說他們對能源貧窮這件事情其實才剛開始探索但部長這不是是能源問題這些因經濟弱勢而攪不起電費瓦斯費的家庭早就已經延伸更多的社福課題因為只要每升高一度\n人際的一個暴力的話會增加4到6%所以我們就會有家庭暴力的問題甚至慢性疾病衛生條件惡化甚至會影響到兩群人一個叫做老人一個叫做嬰幼兒因為他們的死亡風險高於一般人在一個酷熱的一個夏天裡面那所以根據歐盟跟其他國家的經驗的話處理能源貧窮最重要的第一步就是要\n清楚的來釐清誰是需要幫助的人那他們的資源實際需求是什麼因為貧窮不只是沒有錢各國的政策也不是只有發錢還會有搭配的服務跟資源所以我想請教部長這些能源貧窮的族群衛福部在社會救助法的修法草案有沒有納入考量\n好,我想我先回答前面的部分,第一個就是為了積極預備極端氣候變遷對獨居老人的影響,我想如果有家人的話,大概會做一點調配。那我們也督導地方政府,用定期掌握狹內獨居老人的狀況。\n提供那個災害防救單位獨基島的名冊同時也要結合民間的團體志工社工人員在氣候變遷很大或天然災害的時候加強關懷服務而且必要時也必須要跟他做一個調整我想這個部分謝謝委員提出這個問題部長這就是我最擔心的你剛剛回答的為什麼因為現行的社福體力\n體制裡面到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出清楚的定義你剛剛講只有講獨居老人可是我剛剛講說最大的受害可能有會產生家庭暴力的問題甚至事實上是對於嬰幼兒還有跟老人一樣都事實上是他的死亡風險是高於一般人所以到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出一個相對的\n很清楚的定義 甚至有沒有相關的法規或政策指引 如果聽你這樣講的話我們就來談第二個 也就是說根據台大風險中心今年的報告 經濟弱勢家庭中有兩成是因為繳不起電費瓦斯費被斷電斷瓦斯 那還有兩成是連\n節能加電補助都申請不到 為什麼因為他有自配的款項 所以他根本就是沒有辦法他連自配款項都拿不出來 當然也申請不到所以很多弱勢租戶住在違建 老舊 通風差的房子裡邊所以就會變成什麼 越窮越熱 越熱越窮的一個惡性循環我在環境部質詢的時候就已經強調氣候衝擊下最脆弱的不是身體\n那個虛弱的人事實上還包括長期被社會福利系統呢遺漏的弱勢族群所以剛剛部長講的就會是跟環境部現在跟我們提出來說有啊我在內政部的大數據我找出撈出獨居者的名單當中去找人啊可是部長這很明顯就是我們社福議題為什麼因為環境部不可能知道你們針對社福到底那個貧窮甚至到底能源\n裡面切審的這些人他根本不知道所以要靠我們衛福部可是衛福部有沒有比環境部有更有效的策略而不是在獨居名單去找人所以是不是能夠主動鎖定這些能源貧窮者能不能提出具體的方案而不是只靠私辦\n所以我具體要求請衛福部從全國的社福的弱勢家庭中所以我們不要再增加家庭暴力的問題甚至不要因為熱而死亡所以啟動能源調查然後辨識出能源弱勢族群釐清這些人的脆弱結構跟原因是什麼所以部長你覺得這個事情的規劃你大概要多久的時間謝謝委員的關心我想我們\n我們衛福部有依照這個因應氣候變遷制健康衝擊政策白皮書來增強遊民低中收入戶面對極端氣候制調適能力那當然本部為了確保這些他們的基本的生存權也有訂定專案的計畫那督導直轄市縣市政府那個要關懷那如果有高溫的情況立刻立刻啟動高溫關懷機制\n是部長是不是先至少第一步先達到就是到底誰是能源貧窮者先把定義出來否則就會變成環境部他會依著你的概念然後就只撈\n獨居長者出來可是其他該要照顧的人沒照顧到所以一個月時間足夠嗎把他定義出來之後還有相關的規劃我請你履次那個齁沒關係你講沒關係我做COVID的齁好那履次你這邊有辦法一個月可以嗎\n非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心確實現在目前整個全球的這一個氣候變遷對於我們弱勢者確實是很大的一個衝擊那我想這個大概兩個部分一個是他的收入面另外一個支出面支出面的部分我跟委員報告有一個統計數據是公研院他跟家福他們那邊有一個合作就是說這一個低收中低收的家戶能源支出占他的總支出大概18.1這是第一個數據\n另外第二個數據現在就是說他現在目前整個這個低收中低收跟社會弱勢民眾其實他們裡面的很多家電其實事實上恐怕都有這一個事實上都有能源效率的問題那我跟委員簡單報告其實部長對這個問題他之前就有交辦我在部裡面我在那個我們社政這邊其實有成立一個專案那個相關的一個部分我現在已經請我們相關的就是包括我們的社會救助的這些民眾\n你們也在開會 所以一個月規劃可以 沒問題我們會把我們相關的規劃成果因為把經濟弱勢者 無家者 社福機構像安置機構 長照機構甚至脆弱家庭跟身障跟罕見疾病這些能不能是定義為能源貧窮者你們可以把它定義出來之後\n接下配套是什麼 在一個月內我簡單回覆一下 就兩個部分分析程式有兩個 一個是機構 另外一個是家戶這裡面我們都要嚴格來予定義再麻煩 部長早在2017年兩公約審查就已經要求說台灣必須訂定無家可歸者的福利跟人權法而且要建立一套全國方法一致的\n統計資料庫來反映無家者的實際人數需求跟生活狀況可現在\n你的進度是什麼2017年我們兩公約在國際委員審查的時候就已經要做到這兩件事情那目前我們衛福部的進度是什麼有做到嗎我跟委員報告我們現在目前我知道民團他們這邊有現在目前的一個相關的一個統計那我跟委員報告我們現在目前有列冊全台灣應該我記得有三千多位\n因為民間團體就大概指出說九成的無家者是沒有中低收入的身份\n七成的無家者是沒有任何福利身份也沒有領到任何的福利津貼那所以我就不知道說政府的精準的資料庫你怎麼去回應人家民間團體可以調出來可是調查出來可是你們卻不知道我不知道說你們都沒有辦法提出只有要求地方列冊就足夠作為政策依據嗎我不認為齁\n再提到專法 衛福部在2019年就已經有委託研究案學者也寫好了 寫好了整部的無家者的一個專法的草案卻到現在沒有任何後續的一個行動2023年呢 關於我們的社會救助法的研究案也是一樣的結論也就我有看到你們最新的社救法的一個草案\n裡面增加了無家者的一個條文可是沒有專章也沒有法定身份也沒有法定預算中央政府的責任也非常有限說實在進步幅度非常小部長你覺得增加一條條文真的就能夠達到國際人權委員會要求的專法的效果嗎因為他結論性意見37點次43點次都有一些要求可是你覺得一條條文你就可以達到嗎\n我想這個都可以研議啦那這幾個計畫已經都完成了可是你們版本看起來就是只有一條條文人家第一個要專法那至少也要有專章可是我們現在看到你們的大概沒有專\n專章去做這個來做說明是 報告委員那個我們現在目前簡單三點我們現在目前所增加的不是只有一條而已我們有增加有增加三條這是第一點一樣的三條能夠回應我們因為兩公約接下來又要審查國際又要來進行國際審查了\n包委員我們這個其實對於那個是不是會成為遊民的這個成因其實老實說非常非常廣泛那這裡面除了經濟議題之外其實也有牽涉到譬如像有關於居住居住的還有就業等等這些相關的一些的這些部分那至於委員所說的是不是有必要來成立專章這個我想我們可以再來延誤好不好市長我覺得台灣沒有無家者的專法可是\n是不是也就是導致我們的社安網第二期的計畫裡邊完全資質未提無家者可歸\n的問題那有沒有法定 也沒有法定預算也沒有行動方案你們現在真的草案裡邊中央的責任非常的薄弱而且看不到全國性 系統性 前瞻性的積極輔導工作規範安置體系跟預防措施還要訂相關的配套的辦法散落到地方的無家者偵測導致地方有錢才做沒有錢就沒事怎麼可能可以處理跨縣市流動的無家者的問題\n而且現在連全國一致的調查機制都沒有根本不符合國際基本的治理要求美英日韓早就在無家者有專法而且授權從中央層級到地方層級而且我們現在比韓國晚10年然後比日本晚20年所以我要問的是無家者的法定福利身份跟預算是否要納入社會救助法專章\n再等專法立法後再轉過去我覺得期待是應該你們版本要考量這樣如果要直接訂專法的話衛福部有沒有時間表今年國家人權報告就要送出了那你們到底要不要把立法的成立法的期程寫進去對\n人權公約的審查要清楚的交代這個我期待你們要這樣子做為什麼因為我們當然希望你不能夠說都不對應人家結論性意見因為時間關係我就不讓你們回答那部長現在還要談的是真正排除貧窮者的不是貧窮縣\n而是你們社會救法裡面那套過時的虛擬收入全世界找不到其他國家用這種方式虛擬一個不存在的收入為了防避而造成許多窮人呢申請不到低收入戶那這條制度是來自1963年戒嚴時期2004年才被寫進母法現在只是因為方便計算根本沒有什麼制度設計所以到今天這還不是\n轉型正義的問題嗎你們說查不到地下經濟就拿虛擬虛擬收入來防弊結果犧牲的是最貧困的人到2025年我們還要用61年前的方法來判定誰夠窮所以去年7月陳時中政委就已經找你們跟民間修法聯盟開會了然後呢明確要求衛福部要算出來廢除虛擬收入之後增加多少財政成本跟受益人數所以我要先問部長你們算出來了嗎\n目前算出來了嗎報告委員我們現在目前有做相關的研議但我也要必須要報告委員其實這裡面你也知道就是說我想我們都知道全世界現在目前整個這個所謂地下經濟的這個部分那你現在目前這個我們真的很低而且只有2.4%可是大概照理來講如果我們按照貧窮線大概會到13%\n報告委員我們現在目前如果按照那個有其他那個津貼的那個收入的那個補助的話涵蓋人口是8.36我們涵蓋就是那個中低收入老人生活津貼還有那個聲音障礙者津貼還有那個弱勢兒少補助如果以這個也把它算進來的話我們算是8.36老東部在那場會議當中也說即便廢除虛擬收入加上其他的修法項目\n也只會多出38萬人業務還是可以承擔那你們自己研究也說至少會有5萬人立刻可以取得低收入資格如果你廢除掉那一條的話那這5萬人會帶到底帶來多少的財政影響因為時間關係所以請你們一週內最多兩週內是不是把資料給我也把一半一併把計算方式提供市長這邊可以嗎OK好OK謝謝謝謝市長謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.798 --> 00:09.741\n主席麻煩我們的邱部長好有請邱部長部長早部長上週氣溫連續都飆到37度體感超過40度那極端氣候已經事實上是常態了氣候調適也是\n\n00:28.385 --> 00:50.548\n國際公約的認定的人權問題那我在環境部諮詢的時候就發現說他們對能源貧窮這件事情其實才剛開始探索但部長這不是是能源問題這些因經濟弱勢而攪不起電費瓦斯費的家庭早就已經延伸更多的社福課題因為只要每升高一度\n\n00:51.004 --> 01:20.109\n人際的一個暴力的話會增加4到6%所以我們就會有家庭暴力的問題甚至慢性疾病衛生條件惡化甚至會影響到兩群人一個叫做老人一個叫做嬰幼兒因為他們的死亡風險高於一般人在一個酷熱的一個夏天裡面那所以根據歐盟跟其他國家的經驗的話處理能源貧窮最重要的第一步就是要\n\n01:21.235 --> 01:40.482\n清楚的來釐清誰是需要幫助的人那他們的資源實際需求是什麼因為貧窮不只是沒有錢各國的政策也不是只有發錢還會有搭配的服務跟資源所以我想請教部長這些能源貧窮的族群衛福部在社會救助法的修法草案有沒有納入考量\n\n01:41.288 --> 01:58.941\n好,我想我先回答前面的部分,第一個就是為了積極預備極端氣候變遷對獨居老人的影響,我想如果有家人的話,大概會做一點調配。那我們也督導地方政府,用定期掌握狹內獨居老人的狀況。\n\n02:00.902 --> 02:27.664\n提供那個災害防救單位獨基島的名冊同時也要結合民間的團體志工社工人員在氣候變遷很大或天然災害的時候加強關懷服務而且必要時也必須要跟他做一個調整我想這個部分謝謝委員提出這個問題部長這就是我最擔心的你剛剛回答的為什麼因為現行的社福體力\n\n02:28.428 --> 02:51.658\n體制裡面到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出清楚的定義你剛剛講只有講獨居老人可是我剛剛講說最大的受害可能有會產生家庭暴力的問題甚至事實上是對於嬰幼兒還有跟老人一樣都事實上是他的死亡風險是高於一般人所以到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出一個相對的\n\n02:52.639 --> 03:11.950\n很清楚的定義甚至有沒有相關的法規或政策指引如果聽你這樣講的話我們就來談第二個也就是說根據台大風險中心今年的報告經濟弱勢家庭中有兩成是因為繳不起電費瓦斯費被斷電斷瓦斯那還有兩成是連\n\n03:13.991 --> 03:39.687\n節能加電補助都申請不到為什麼因為他有自配的款項所以他根本就是沒有辦法他連自配款項都拿不出來當然也申請不到所以很多弱勢租戶住在違建老舊通風差的房子裡邊所以就會變成什麼越窮越熱越熱越窮的一個惡性循環我在環境部質詢的時候就已經強調氣候衝擊下最脆弱的不是身體\n\n03:40.919 --> 04:07.859\n那個虛弱的人事實上還包括長期被社會福利系統呢遺漏的弱勢族群所以剛剛部長講的就會是跟環境部現在跟我們提出來說有啊我在內政部的大數據我找出撈出獨居者的名單當中去找人啊可是部長這很明顯就是我們社福議題為什麼因為環境部不可能知道你們針對社福到底那個貧窮甚至到底能源\n\n04:08.960 --> 04:27.894\n裡面切審的這些人他根本不知道所以要靠我們衛福部可是衛福部有沒有比環境部有更有效的策略而不是在獨居名單去找人所以是不是能夠主動鎖定這些能源貧窮者能不能提出具體的方案而不是只靠私辦\n\n04:28.915 --> 04:53.737\n所以我具體要求請衛福部從全國的社福的弱勢家庭中所以我們不要再增加家庭暴力的問題甚至不要因為熱而死亡所以啟動能源調查然後辨識出能源弱勢族群釐清這些人的脆弱結構跟原因是什麼所以部長你覺得這個事情的規劃你大概要多久的時間謝謝委員的關心我想我們\n\n04:54.798 --> 05:18.043\n我們衛福部有依照這個因應氣候變遷制健康衝擊政策白皮書來增強遊民低中收入戶面對極端氣候制調適能力那當然本部為了確保這些他們的基本的生存權也有訂定專案的計畫那督導直轄市縣市政府那個要關懷那如果有高溫的情況立刻立刻啟動高溫關懷機制\n\n05:21.724 --> 05:34.164\n是部長是不是先至少第一步先達到就是到底誰是能源貧窮者先把定義出來否則就會變成環境部他會依著你的概念然後就只撈\n\n05:35.047 --> 05:54.065\n獨居長者出來可是其他該要照顧的人沒照顧到所以一個月時間足夠嗎把他定義出來之後還有相關的規劃我請你履次那個齁沒關係你講沒關係我做COVID的齁好那履次你這邊有辦法一個月可以嗎\n\n05:55.326 --> 06:21.048\n非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心確實現在目前整個全球的這一個氣候變遷對於我們弱勢者確實是很大的一個衝擊那我想這個大概兩個部分一個是他的收入面另外一個支出面支出面的部分我跟委員報告有一個統計數據是公研院他跟家福他們那邊有一個合作就是說這一個低收中低收的家戶能源支出占他的總支出大概18.1這是第一個數據\n\n06:21.849 --> 06:48.653\n另外第二個數據現在就是說他現在目前整個這個低收中低收跟社會弱勢民眾其實他們裡面的很多家電其實事實上恐怕都有這一個事實上都有能源效率的問題那我跟委員簡單報告其實部長對這個問題他之前就有交辦我在部裡面我在那個我們社政這邊其實有成立一個專案那個相關的一個部分我現在已經請我們相關的就是包括我們的社會救助的這些民眾\n\n06:49.954 --> 07:07.226\n你們也在開會所以一個月規劃可以沒問題我們會把我們相關的規劃成果因為把經濟弱勢者無家者社福機構像安置機構長照機構甚至脆弱家庭跟身障跟罕見疾病這些能不能是定義為能源貧窮者你們可以把它定義出來之後\n\n07:07.806 --> 07:32.968\n接下配套是什麼在一個月內我簡單回覆一下就兩個部分分析程式有兩個一個是機構另外一個是家戶這裡面我們都要嚴格來予定義再麻煩部長早在2017年兩公約審查就已經要求說台灣必須訂定無家可歸者的福利跟人權法而且要建立一套全國方法一致的\n\n07:33.809 --> 07:37.416\n統計資料庫來反映無家者的實際人數需求跟生活狀況可現在\n\n07:39.625 --> 07:58.157\n你的進度是什麼2017年我們兩公約在國際委員審查的時候就已經要做到這兩件事情那目前我們衛福部的進度是什麼有做到嗎我跟委員報告我們現在目前我知道民團他們這邊有現在目前的一個相關的一個統計那我跟委員報告我們現在目前有列冊全台灣應該我記得有三千多位\n\n08:10.786 --> 08:12.888\n因為民間團體就大概指出說九成的無家者是沒有中低收入的身份\n\n08:31.585 --> 08:53.991\n七成的無家者是沒有任何福利身份也沒有領到任何的福利津貼那所以我就不知道說政府的精準的資料庫你怎麼去回應人家民間團體可以調出來可是調查出來可是你們卻不知道我不知道說你們都沒有辦法提出只有要求地方列冊就足夠作為政策依據嗎我不認為齁\n\n08:55.325 --> 09:16.441\n再提到專法衛福部在2019年就已經有委託研究案學者也寫好了寫好了整部的無家者的一個專法的草案卻到現在沒有任何後續的一個行動2023年呢關於我們的社會救助法的研究案也是一樣的結論也就我有看到你們最新的社救法的一個草案\n\n09:17.101 --> 09:41.364\n裡面增加了無家者的一個條文可是沒有專章也沒有法定身份也沒有法定預算中央政府的責任也非常有限說實在進步幅度非常小部長你覺得增加一條條文真的就能夠達到國際人權委員會要求的專法的效果嗎因為他結論性意見37點次43點次都有一些要求可是你覺得一條條文你就可以達到嗎\n\n09:42.899 --> 09:58.490\n我想這個都可以研議啦那這幾個計畫已經都完成了可是你們版本看起來就是只有一條條文人家第一個要專法那至少也要有專章可是我們現在看到你們的大概沒有專\n\n09:59.880 --> 10:10.754\n專章去做這個來做說明是報告委員那個我們現在目前簡單三點我們現在目前所增加的不是只有一條而已我們有增加有增加三條這是第一點一樣的三條能夠回應我們因為兩公約接下來又要審查國際又要來進行國際審查了\n\n10:19.817 --> 10:46.097\n包委員我們這個其實對於那個是不是會成為遊民的這個成因其實老實說非常非常廣泛那這裡面除了經濟議題之外其實也有牽涉到譬如像有關於居住居住的還有就業等等這些相關的一些的這些部分那至於委員所說的是不是有必要來成立專章這個我想我們可以再來延誤好不好市長我覺得台灣沒有無家者的專法可是\n\n10:46.577 --> 10:53.585\n是不是也就是導致我們的社安網第二期的計畫裡邊完全資質未提無家者可歸\n\n10:55.137 --> 11:23.559\n的問題那有沒有法定也沒有法定預算也沒有行動方案你們現在真的草案裡邊中央的責任非常的薄弱而且看不到全國性系統性前瞻性的積極輔導工作規範安置體系跟預防措施還要訂相關的配套的辦法散落到地方的無家者偵測導致地方有錢才做沒有錢就沒事怎麼可能可以處理跨縣市流動的無家者的問題\n\n11:24.199 --> 11:47.256\n而且現在連全國一致的調查機制都沒有根本不符合國際基本的治理要求美英日韓早就在無家者有專法而且授權從中央層級到地方層級而且我們現在比韓國晚10年然後比日本晚20年所以我要問的是無家者的法定福利身份跟預算是否要納入社會救助法專章\n\n11:48.106 --> 12:04.151\n再等專法立法後再轉過去我覺得期待是應該你們版本要考量這樣如果要直接訂專法的話衛福部有沒有時間表今年國家人權報告就要送出了那你們到底要不要把立法的成立法的期程寫進去對\n\n12:05.931 --> 12:19.345\n人權公約的審查要清楚的交代這個我期待你們要這樣子做為什麼因為我們當然希望你不能夠說都不對應人家結論性意見因為時間關係我就不讓你們回答那部長現在還要談的是真正排除貧窮者的不是貧窮縣\n\n12:26.011 --> 12:54.159\n而是你們社會救法裡面那套過時的虛擬收入全世界找不到其他國家用這種方式虛擬一個不存在的收入為了防避而造成許多窮人呢申請不到低收入戶那這條制度是來自1963年戒嚴時期2004年才被寫進母法現在只是因為方便計算根本沒有什麼制度設計所以到今天這還不是\n\n12:55.519 --> 13:24.449\n轉型正義的問題嗎你們說查不到地下經濟就拿虛擬虛擬收入來防弊結果犧牲的是最貧困的人到2025年我們還要用61年前的方法來判定誰夠窮所以去年7月陳時中政委就已經找你們跟民間修法聯盟開會了然後呢明確要求衛福部要算出來廢除虛擬收入之後增加多少財政成本跟受益人數所以我要先問部長你們算出來了嗎\n\n13:26.044 --> 13:49.413\n目前算出來了嗎報告委員我們現在目前有做相關的研議但我也要必須要報告委員其實這裡面你也知道就是說我想我們都知道全世界現在目前整個這個所謂地下經濟的這個部分那你現在目前這個我們真的很低而且只有2.4%可是大概照理來講如果我們按照貧窮線大概會到13%\n\n13:52.828 --> 14:16.730\n報告委員我們現在目前如果按照那個有其他那個津貼的那個收入的那個補助的話涵蓋人口是8.36我們涵蓋就是那個中低收入老人生活津貼還有那個聲音障礙者津貼還有那個弱勢兒少補助如果以這個也把它算進來的話我們算是8.36老東部在那場會議當中也說即便廢除虛擬收入加上其他的修法項目\n\n14:17.350 --> 14:42.878\n也只會多出38萬人業務還是可以承擔那你們自己研究也說至少會有5萬人立刻可以取得低收入資格如果你廢除掉那一條的話那這5萬人會帶到底帶來多少的財政影響因為時間關係所以請你們一週內最多兩週內是不是把資料給我也把一半一併把計算方式提供市長這邊可以嗎OK好OK謝謝謝謝市長謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.798,"end":9.741,"text":"主席麻煩我們的邱部長好有請邱部長部長早部長上週氣溫連續都飆到37度體感超過40度那極端氣候已經事實上是常態了氣候調適也是"},{"start":28.385,"end":50.548,"text":"國際公約的認定的人權問題那我在環境部諮詢的時候就發現說他們對能源貧窮這件事情其實才剛開始探索但部長這不是是能源問題這些因經濟弱勢而攪不起電費瓦斯費的家庭早就已經延伸更多的社福課題因為只要每升高一度"},{"start":51.004,"end":80.109,"text":"人際的一個暴力的話會增加4到6%所以我們就會有家庭暴力的問題甚至慢性疾病衛生條件惡化甚至會影響到兩群人一個叫做老人一個叫做嬰幼兒因為他們的死亡風險高於一般人在一個酷熱的一個夏天裡面那所以根據歐盟跟其他國家的經驗的話處理能源貧窮最重要的第一步就是要"},{"start":81.235,"end":100.482,"text":"清楚的來釐清誰是需要幫助的人那他們的資源實際需求是什麼因為貧窮不只是沒有錢各國的政策也不是只有發錢還會有搭配的服務跟資源所以我想請教部長這些能源貧窮的族群衛福部在社會救助法的修法草案有沒有納入考量"},{"start":101.288,"end":118.941,"text":"好,我想我先回答前面的部分,第一個就是為了積極預備極端氣候變遷對獨居老人的影響,我想如果有家人的話,大概會做一點調配。那我們也督導地方政府,用定期掌握狹內獨居老人的狀況。"},{"start":120.902,"end":147.664,"text":"提供那個災害防救單位獨基島的名冊同時也要結合民間的團體志工社工人員在氣候變遷很大或天然災害的時候加強關懷服務而且必要時也必須要跟他做一個調整我想這個部分謝謝委員提出這個問題部長這就是我最擔心的你剛剛回答的為什麼因為現行的社福體力"},{"start":148.428,"end":171.658,"text":"體制裡面到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出清楚的定義你剛剛講只有講獨居老人可是我剛剛講說最大的受害可能有會產生家庭暴力的問題甚至事實上是對於嬰幼兒還有跟老人一樣都事實上是他的死亡風險是高於一般人所以到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出一個相對的"},{"start":172.639,"end":191.95,"text":"很清楚的定義 甚至有沒有相關的法規或政策指引 如果聽你這樣講的話我們就來談第二個 也就是說根據台大風險中心今年的報告 經濟弱勢家庭中有兩成是因為繳不起電費瓦斯費被斷電斷瓦斯 那還有兩成是連"},{"start":193.991,"end":219.687,"text":"節能加電補助都申請不到 為什麼因為他有自配的款項 所以他根本就是沒有辦法他連自配款項都拿不出來 當然也申請不到所以很多弱勢租戶住在違建 老舊 通風差的房子裡邊所以就會變成什麼 越窮越熱 越熱越窮的一個惡性循環我在環境部質詢的時候就已經強調氣候衝擊下最脆弱的不是身體"},{"start":220.919,"end":247.859,"text":"那個虛弱的人事實上還包括長期被社會福利系統呢遺漏的弱勢族群所以剛剛部長講的就會是跟環境部現在跟我們提出來說有啊我在內政部的大數據我找出撈出獨居者的名單當中去找人啊可是部長這很明顯就是我們社福議題為什麼因為環境部不可能知道你們針對社福到底那個貧窮甚至到底能源"},{"start":248.96,"end":267.894,"text":"裡面切審的這些人他根本不知道所以要靠我們衛福部可是衛福部有沒有比環境部有更有效的策略而不是在獨居名單去找人所以是不是能夠主動鎖定這些能源貧窮者能不能提出具體的方案而不是只靠私辦"},{"start":268.915,"end":293.737,"text":"所以我具體要求請衛福部從全國的社福的弱勢家庭中所以我們不要再增加家庭暴力的問題甚至不要因為熱而死亡所以啟動能源調查然後辨識出能源弱勢族群釐清這些人的脆弱結構跟原因是什麼所以部長你覺得這個事情的規劃你大概要多久的時間謝謝委員的關心我想我們"},{"start":294.798,"end":318.043,"text":"我們衛福部有依照這個因應氣候變遷制健康衝擊政策白皮書來增強遊民低中收入戶面對極端氣候制調適能力那當然本部為了確保這些他們的基本的生存權也有訂定專案的計畫那督導直轄市縣市政府那個要關懷那如果有高溫的情況立刻立刻啟動高溫關懷機制"},{"start":321.724,"end":334.164,"text":"是部長是不是先至少第一步先達到就是到底誰是能源貧窮者先把定義出來否則就會變成環境部他會依著你的概念然後就只撈"},{"start":335.047,"end":354.065,"text":"獨居長者出來可是其他該要照顧的人沒照顧到所以一個月時間足夠嗎把他定義出來之後還有相關的規劃我請你履次那個齁沒關係你講沒關係我做COVID的齁好那履次你這邊有辦法一個月可以嗎"},{"start":355.326,"end":381.048,"text":"非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心確實現在目前整個全球的這一個氣候變遷對於我們弱勢者確實是很大的一個衝擊那我想這個大概兩個部分一個是他的收入面另外一個支出面支出面的部分我跟委員報告有一個統計數據是公研院他跟家福他們那邊有一個合作就是說這一個低收中低收的家戶能源支出占他的總支出大概18.1這是第一個數據"},{"start":381.849,"end":408.653,"text":"另外第二個數據現在就是說他現在目前整個這個低收中低收跟社會弱勢民眾其實他們裡面的很多家電其實事實上恐怕都有這一個事實上都有能源效率的問題那我跟委員簡單報告其實部長對這個問題他之前就有交辦我在部裡面我在那個我們社政這邊其實有成立一個專案那個相關的一個部分我現在已經請我們相關的就是包括我們的社會救助的這些民眾"},{"start":409.954,"end":427.226,"text":"你們也在開會 所以一個月規劃可以 沒問題我們會把我們相關的規劃成果因為把經濟弱勢者 無家者 社福機構像安置機構 長照機構甚至脆弱家庭跟身障跟罕見疾病這些能不能是定義為能源貧窮者你們可以把它定義出來之後"},{"start":427.806,"end":452.968,"text":"接下配套是什麼 在一個月內我簡單回覆一下 就兩個部分分析程式有兩個 一個是機構 另外一個是家戶這裡面我們都要嚴格來予定義再麻煩 部長早在2017年兩公約審查就已經要求說台灣必須訂定無家可歸者的福利跟人權法而且要建立一套全國方法一致的"},{"start":453.809,"end":457.416,"text":"統計資料庫來反映無家者的實際人數需求跟生活狀況可現在"},{"start":459.625,"end":478.157,"text":"你的進度是什麼2017年我們兩公約在國際委員審查的時候就已經要做到這兩件事情那目前我們衛福部的進度是什麼有做到嗎我跟委員報告我們現在目前我知道民團他們這邊有現在目前的一個相關的一個統計那我跟委員報告我們現在目前有列冊全台灣應該我記得有三千多位"},{"start":490.786,"end":492.888,"text":"因為民間團體就大概指出說九成的無家者是沒有中低收入的身份"},{"start":511.585,"end":533.991,"text":"七成的無家者是沒有任何福利身份也沒有領到任何的福利津貼那所以我就不知道說政府的精準的資料庫你怎麼去回應人家民間團體可以調出來可是調查出來可是你們卻不知道我不知道說你們都沒有辦法提出只有要求地方列冊就足夠作為政策依據嗎我不認為齁"},{"start":535.325,"end":556.441,"text":"再提到專法 衛福部在2019年就已經有委託研究案學者也寫好了 寫好了整部的無家者的一個專法的草案卻到現在沒有任何後續的一個行動2023年呢 關於我們的社會救助法的研究案也是一樣的結論也就我有看到你們最新的社救法的一個草案"},{"start":557.101,"end":581.364,"text":"裡面增加了無家者的一個條文可是沒有專章也沒有法定身份也沒有法定預算中央政府的責任也非常有限說實在進步幅度非常小部長你覺得增加一條條文真的就能夠達到國際人權委員會要求的專法的效果嗎因為他結論性意見37點次43點次都有一些要求可是你覺得一條條文你就可以達到嗎"},{"start":582.899,"end":598.49,"text":"我想這個都可以研議啦那這幾個計畫已經都完成了可是你們版本看起來就是只有一條條文人家第一個要專法那至少也要有專章可是我們現在看到你們的大概沒有專"},{"start":599.88,"end":610.754,"text":"專章去做這個來做說明是 報告委員那個我們現在目前簡單三點我們現在目前所增加的不是只有一條而已我們有增加有增加三條這是第一點一樣的三條能夠回應我們因為兩公約接下來又要審查國際又要來進行國際審查了"},{"start":619.817,"end":646.097,"text":"包委員我們這個其實對於那個是不是會成為遊民的這個成因其實老實說非常非常廣泛那這裡面除了經濟議題之外其實也有牽涉到譬如像有關於居住居住的還有就業等等這些相關的一些的這些部分那至於委員所說的是不是有必要來成立專章這個我想我們可以再來延誤好不好市長我覺得台灣沒有無家者的專法可是"},{"start":646.577,"end":653.585,"text":"是不是也就是導致我們的社安網第二期的計畫裡邊完全資質未提無家者可歸"},{"start":655.137,"end":683.559,"text":"的問題那有沒有法定 也沒有法定預算也沒有行動方案你們現在真的草案裡邊中央的責任非常的薄弱而且看不到全國性 系統性 前瞻性的積極輔導工作規範安置體系跟預防措施還要訂相關的配套的辦法散落到地方的無家者偵測導致地方有錢才做沒有錢就沒事怎麼可能可以處理跨縣市流動的無家者的問題"},{"start":684.199,"end":707.256,"text":"而且現在連全國一致的調查機制都沒有根本不符合國際基本的治理要求美英日韓早就在無家者有專法而且授權從中央層級到地方層級而且我們現在比韓國晚10年然後比日本晚20年所以我要問的是無家者的法定福利身份跟預算是否要納入社會救助法專章"},{"start":708.106,"end":724.151,"text":"再等專法立法後再轉過去我覺得期待是應該你們版本要考量這樣如果要直接訂專法的話衛福部有沒有時間表今年國家人權報告就要送出了那你們到底要不要把立法的成立法的期程寫進去對"},{"start":725.931,"end":739.345,"text":"人權公約的審查要清楚的交代這個我期待你們要這樣子做為什麼因為我們當然希望你不能夠說都不對應人家結論性意見因為時間關係我就不讓你們回答那部長現在還要談的是真正排除貧窮者的不是貧窮縣"},{"start":746.011,"end":774.159,"text":"而是你們社會救法裡面那套過時的虛擬收入全世界找不到其他國家用這種方式虛擬一個不存在的收入為了防避而造成許多窮人呢申請不到低收入戶那這條制度是來自1963年戒嚴時期2004年才被寫進母法現在只是因為方便計算根本沒有什麼制度設計所以到今天這還不是"},{"start":775.519,"end":804.449,"text":"轉型正義的問題嗎你們說查不到地下經濟就拿虛擬虛擬收入來防弊結果犧牲的是最貧困的人到2025年我們還要用61年前的方法來判定誰夠窮所以去年7月陳時中政委就已經找你們跟民間修法聯盟開會了然後呢明確要求衛福部要算出來廢除虛擬收入之後增加多少財政成本跟受益人數所以我要先問部長你們算出來了嗎"},{"start":806.044,"end":829.413,"text":"目前算出來了嗎報告委員我們現在目前有做相關的研議但我也要必須要報告委員其實這裡面你也知道就是說我想我們都知道全世界現在目前整個這個所謂地下經濟的這個部分那你現在目前這個我們真的很低而且只有2.4%可是大概照理來講如果我們按照貧窮線大概會到13%"},{"start":832.828,"end":856.73,"text":"報告委員我們現在目前如果按照那個有其他那個津貼的那個收入的那個補助的話涵蓋人口是8.36我們涵蓋就是那個中低收入老人生活津貼還有那個聲音障礙者津貼還有那個弱勢兒少補助如果以這個也把它算進來的話我們算是8.36老東部在那場會議當中也說即便廢除虛擬收入加上其他的修法項目"},{"start":857.35,"end":882.878,"text":"也只會多出38萬人業務還是可以承擔那你們自己研究也說至少會有5萬人立刻可以取得低收入資格如果你廢除掉那一條的話那這5萬人會帶到底帶來多少的財政影響因為時間關係所以請你們一週內最多兩週內是不是把資料給我也把一半一併把計算方式提供市長這邊可以嗎OK好OK謝謝謝謝市長謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時40分）主席，麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。上週氣溫連續飆到37度，體感超過40度，事實上極端氣候已經是常態，氣候調適也是國際公約認定的人權問題。我在質詢環境部的時候就發現，他們對能源貧窮這件事情其實才剛開始探索。部長，但這不只是能源問題，這些因經濟弱勢而繳不起電費、瓦斯費的家庭，早就已經衍生更多的社福課題，因為只要每升高1度，人際的暴力會增加4%到6%，所以就會有家庭暴力、慢性疾病、衛生條件惡化等問題，甚至會影響到兩群人，一個叫做老人，一個叫做嬰幼兒，在酷熱的夏天裡面，他們的死亡風險高於一般人。","根據歐盟跟其他國家的經驗，處理能源貧窮最重要的第一步，就是要清楚地釐清誰是需要幫助的人、他們實際的資源需求是什麼？因為貧窮不只是沒有錢，各國的政策也不是只有發錢，還會有搭配的服務跟資源。所以我想請教部長，對於這些能源貧窮的族群，衛福部在社會救助法的修法草案中有沒有納入考量？"],["邱部長泰源：我先回答前面的部分，第一個，為了積極預防極端氣候變遷對獨居老人的影響，我想如果有家人的話，大概會做一點調配，我們也會督導地方政府應定期掌握轄內獨居老人的狀況，提供災害防救單位獨居老人名冊，同時也要結合民間的團體、志工、社工人員，在氣候變遷很大或天然災害的時候加強關懷服務，而且必要時也要做調整，謝謝委員提出這個問題。"],["林委員月琴：部長，你剛剛回答的就是我最擔心的，為什麼？因為現行的社福體制裡到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出清楚的定義？你剛剛只有講獨居老人，可是我剛剛說最大的受害族群，有可能會產生家庭暴力的問題，事實上對嬰幼兒還有老人都一樣，他們的死亡風險是高於一般人，所以到底有沒有針對能源貧窮提出一個相對的、很清楚的定義，甚至有沒有相關的法規或政策指引？不過聽你這樣講的話，我們就來談第二個。根據臺大風險中心今年的報告，經濟弱勢家庭中有兩成是因為繳不起電費、瓦斯費而被斷電、斷瓦斯，還有兩成是連節能家電補助都申請不到的，為什麼？因為它有自備的款項，所以他們根本就沒有辦法，連自備款項都拿不出來，當然也申請不到，所以很多弱勢租戶住在違建、老舊、通風差的房子裡面，所以就會變成什麼？越窮越熱、越熱越窮的惡性循環。","事實上，我在質詢環境部的時候就已經強調，氣候衝擊下最脆弱的不只是身體虛弱的人，還包括長期被社會福利系統遺漏的弱勢族群，所以剛剛部長講的，環境部現在提出說他們有在內政部的大數據中，找出、撈出的獨居者名單中去找人。可是部長，這很明顯就是我們的社福議題，為什麼？因為環境部不可能知道，你們針對社福這部分到底哪個是貧窮，甚至到底能源缺少的是哪些人？他們根本不知道，所以要靠衛福部，可是衛福部有沒有比環境部更有效的策略，而不是在獨居長者名單中去找人？是不是能夠主動鎖定這些能源貧窮者？能不能提出具體的方案，而不是只靠試辦？所以我具體要求衛福部從全國社福的弱勢家庭中……我們不要再增加家庭暴力的問題，甚至不要嬰幼兒因為熱而死亡，因此要啟動能源調查，辨識出能源弱勢族群，釐清這些人的脆弱結構跟原因是什麼。部長，你覺得這件事情的規劃大概要多久的時間？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，我們衛福部有依照「因應氣候變遷之健康衝擊政策白皮書」增強遊民、中低收入戶面對極端氣候之調適能力。當然，本部為了確保他們基本的生存權，也有訂定專案的計畫，督導須施以關懷的直轄市、縣市政府，如果有高溫的情況，立刻啟動高溫關懷機制……"],["林委員月琴：是，部長是不是至少第一步先達到，到底誰是能源貧窮者？先把它定義出來……"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個我們來……"],["林委員月琴：否則就會變成環境部會依著你的概念，就只撈獨居長者出來，導致其他該要照顧的人沒照顧到，所以把它定義出來還有相關的規劃，一個月時間足夠嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我請呂次說明。"],["林委員月琴：好，呂次，一個月可以嗎？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心，確實目前整個全球的氣候變遷對於我們弱勢者是很大的衝擊，這個大概分為兩個部分，一個是收入面，另外一個是支出面。我跟委員報告，針對支出面的部分，有一個統計數據是工研院跟家扶中心有一個合作，就是低收、中低收的家戶能源支出占他們的總支出大概18.1%，這是第一個數據；另外第二個數據，目前整個低收、中低收跟社會弱勢民眾，其實他們使用的很多家電，事實上恐怕都有能源效率的問題。我簡單報告，其實對這個問題部長之前就有交辦，我在部裡的社政有成立一個專案，相關的部分我現在已經請……包括社會救助的這些民眾做……"],["林委員月琴：如果次長你們也已經在開會，所以一個月規劃……"],["呂次長建德：可以，沒問題。"],["林委員月琴：可以嗎？好，那就麻煩。"],["呂次長建德：沒問題，一個月。我們會把相關的規劃成果……"],["林委員月琴：因為把經濟弱勢者、無家者、社福機構像安置機構、長照機構，甚至脆弱家庭、身障跟罕見疾病這些，能不能定義為能源貧窮者？"],["呂次長建德：可以。"],["林委員月琴：你們可以把它定義出來，接下來配套是什麼？在一個月內回復。"],["呂次長建德：委員，我簡單回復一下，分析層次有兩個部分，一個是機構，另外一個是家戶，這裡面我們都要嚴格予以定義，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩。部長，早在2017年兩公約審查就已經要求臺灣必須訂定無家可歸者的福利跟人權法，而且要建立一套全國方法一致的統計資料庫來反應無家者的實際人數、需求跟生活狀況，可是現在你們的進度是什麼？2017年我們兩公約在國際委員審查的時候就已經要求要做到這兩件事情，目前你們衛福部的進度是什麼？有做到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我請呂次說明。"],["呂次長建德：我跟委員報告，我知道目前民團他們有相關的統計，而目前有列冊的，我記得全臺灣遊民應該有三千多位，裡面有一些是有中低收的身分，有一些是沒有，這裡面有受到所謂「人籍合一」，也就是戶籍的規範，這個部分目前也在做相關的研擬……OK，以上先做這樣的回應，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：因為民間團體指出九成的無家者是沒有中低收入的身分，七成的無家者是沒有任何福利身分，也沒有領到任何的福利津貼，所以我就不知道以政府精準的資料庫怎麼去回應？人家民間團體可以調查出來，可是你們卻都沒有辦法提出，只有要求地方列冊就足夠作為政策依據嗎？我不認為。","再提到專法，衛福部在2019年就已經有委託研究案，學者也寫好了整部無家者專法的草案，到現在卻沒有任何後續的行動。2023年關於我們的社會救助法的研究案，也是一樣的結論，我有看到你們最新社救法的草案，裡面增加了一條無家者的條文，可是沒有專章，也沒有法定身分，也沒有法定預算，中央政府的責任也非常有限，說實在進步幅度非常小。部長，你覺得增加一條條文，真的就能夠達到國際人權委員會要求專法的效果嗎？因為它結論性意見的第37點及第43點都有一些要求，可是你覺得一條條文就可以達到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個都可以研議，這幾個計畫已經都完成了……"],["林委員月琴：可是你們版本看起來就是只有一條條文，人家第一個要專法……"],["邱部長泰源：我請呂次長說明。"],["林委員月琴：或至少也要有專章，可是現在看到你們大概沒有專章來做說明。"],["呂次長建德：簡單三點，我們現在目前所增加的不是只有一條而已，我們有增加三條，這是第一點。"],["林委員月琴：但是一樣的……"],["呂次長建德：另外，我們預告……"],["林委員月琴：三條能夠回應……因為兩公約接下來又要進行國際審查了。"],["呂次長建德：好，對於是不是會成為遊民的成因，老實說非常非常廣泛，這裡面除了經濟議題之外，也有牽涉到比如有關於居住還有就業等等這些相關的部分。至於委員所說的，是不是有必要來成立專章？這個我想我們可以再來研議，好不好？謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：不過部長、次長，我覺得臺灣沒有無家者的專法，是不是也導致我們社安網第二期的計畫裡面隻字未提無家可歸者的問題？沒有法定預算，也沒有行動方案，你們草案裡面中央的責任真的非常的薄弱，而且看不到全國性、系統性、前瞻性的積極輔導、工作規範。相關安置體系跟預防措施還要另訂定相關配套的辦法，散落到地方的無家者政策，導致地方有錢才做，沒有錢就沒事，怎麼能處理跨縣市流動無家者的問題？而且現在連全國一致的調查機制都沒有，根本不符合國際基本的治理要求。美、英、日、韓早就在無家者有專法，而且授權從中央層級到地方層級，我們現在比韓國晚10年，比日本晚20年，所以我要問的是，無家者的法定福利身分跟預算是否要納入社會救助法專章，等專法立法後再轉過去？我期待你們版本應該要考量這樣做，如果要直接訂定專法的話，衛福部有沒有時間表？還有今年國家人權報告就要送出了，你們到底要不要把立法的期程寫進去？並且對人權公約的審查清楚的交代，我期待你們要這樣子做。為什麼？因為我們當然很希望……你不能說都不回應人家結論性意見，因為時間關係，我就不讓你們回答。","部長，現在還要談真正排除貧窮者的不是貧窮線，而是你們社救法裡面那套過時的虛擬收入，全世界找不到其他國家用這種方式虛擬一個不存在的收入，為了防弊而造成許多窮人申請不到低收入戶。這條制度是來自於1963年戒嚴時期，到2004年才被寫進母法，現在只是因為方便計算，根本沒有什麼制度設計，所以到今天這還不是轉型正義的問題嗎？你們說查不到地下經濟就拿虛擬收入來防弊，結果犧牲的是最貧困的人，到2025年我們還要用61年前的方法來判定誰夠窮？所以去年7月陳時中政委就已經找你們跟民間修法聯盟開會了，明確要求衛福部要算出來廢除虛擬收入之後增加多少財政成本跟受益人數，我要先問部長，你們算出來了嗎？目前算出來了嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我們目前有做相關的研議，但我也必須要報告委員，其實這裡面……我想我們都知道全世界目前整個所謂地下經濟的部分，目前無一定雇主……"],["林委員月琴：我們的真的很低耶！而且只有2.4%耶！照理來講，如果我們按照貧窮線，大概會到13%。"],["呂次長建德：我們目前如果按照其他津貼補助的話，涵蓋人口是8.36%，包含中低收入、老人生活津貼、身心障礙者津貼，還有弱勢兒少補助，如果這個也算進來的話，我們實際上是8.36%。"],["林委員月琴：可是勞動部在那場會議當中也說，即便廢除虛擬收入，加上其他的修法項目也只會多出38萬人，業務還是可以承擔，你們自己研究也說至少會有5萬人立刻可以取得低收入資格，如果廢除掉那一條的話，這5萬人到底會帶來多少的財政影響？因為時間關係，所以請你們是不是在一週內、最多兩週內把資料給我，也一併提供計算方式？次長，可以嗎？"],["呂次長建德：OK，好。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝次長。"],["呂次長建德：謝謝委員。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝林委員的詢答，謝謝部長。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-19","speakers":["劉建國","范雲","林月琴","楊瓊瓔","陳昭姿","王育敏","陳菁徽","林淑芬","涂權吉","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張雅琳","盧縣一","黃秀芳","楊曜","林楚茵","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","陳瑩"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2025-07-07"],"gazette_id":"1146604","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146604_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員楊曜等17人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二、委員范雲等17人擬\n具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正\n草案」案；四、委員黃秀芳等20人擬具「社會救助法第二條、第四條及第十四條條文修正草案」\n案；五、委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；六、委員黃捷等16人\n擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；七、委員蔡其昌等 17 人擬具「社會救助法第四\n條、第四條之一及第五條條文修正草案」案；八、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n條文修正草案」案；九、委員王鴻薇等26人擬具「社會救助法第十五條及第十五條之一條文修正\n草案」案；十、委員邱若華等20人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、台灣民眾黨\n黨團擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；十三、委員楊瓊\n瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救\n助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案；十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文\n修正草案」案；十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；十七、委\n員馬文君等20 人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十八、委員葉元之等 21 人擬具\n「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n及第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、委員林楚茵\n等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救\n助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草\n案」案；二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案；二十六、\n委員吳沛憶等16 人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委員邱鎮軍等 24 人擬具\n「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條\n之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二\n條文修正草案」案；三十、委員馬文君等16 人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案\n【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1146604_00020"}}}