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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等20人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員葉元之等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三十、委員馬文君等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-07-07","start_time":"2025-07-07T10:09:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-07T10:21:26+08:00","duration":724,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"163008","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163008","tool":"pyannote","id":"163008-pyannote"},"job_id":"GBONBrHk6jB635NT","queued_at":"2025-07-07 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134.939, \"end\": 134.959, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 134.959, \"end\": 134.979, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 134.979, \"end\": 134.999, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 134.999, \"end\": 135.019, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 135.019, \"end\": 135.059, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 135.059, \"end\": 135.079, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 145.448, \"end\": 160.698, \"text\": \"跟委員報告事實上這個資料是做一個如果已經是像醫師懲戒書或是判決書是已經公開資料這沒有問題但是外界非常期待應該更早的介入\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 145.448, \"end\": 145.908, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 145.908, \"end\": 146.348, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 146.348, \"end\": 146.749, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 146.749, \"end\": 146.949, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 718.076, \"end\": 718.276, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 718.276, \"end\": 718.516, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 718.516, \"end\": 718.696, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 718.696, \"end\": 719.157, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 719.157, \"end\": 719.177, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,145 --> 00:00:09,648\n謝謝主席,那我們是不是請部長,還有法務部部長,剛剛提到那個狼醫的查詢平台\n\n2\n00:00:24,450 --> 00:00:41,155\n之前你們次長對外講的時候是說這個要有法源依據然後呢法規不夠才來修法那現在到底是卡在哪裡是法源的問題還是行政作業來不及的問題\n\n3\n00:00:43,030 --> 00:01:01,744\n好謝謝委員其實這個社會關注的問題衛務部絕對不會說讓它delay所以我們大概雙管齊下第一個在法源的方面我們當然要現在找到了沒法源依據\n\n4\n00:01:02,344 --> 00:01:15,561\n至少我們是可以公開可以優先來處理可以公開的資訊譬如說判決書這本來就是沒有判決權有時候也不能就把人家定罪\n\n5\n00:01:18,624 --> 00:01:36,116\n這個部分我相信我們很快的,剛剛議事室有講,我們趕快跟司法院請教,後面怎麼樣執行。第二個就是說,怎麼樣把事情發生的時候,由社會局這個部分,我們會督導各縣市政府,轉到衛生局。\n\n6\n00:01:39,258 --> 00:02:05,085\n縮短這樣的一個中心,衛生局就趕快來開相關的審議委員會所以這樣的流程也要儘快那就有壓抑的處罰的效果會更加的呈現我想這兩個方面我們都在努力所以分別在5月19號也跟相關事實討論這個法源的問題那在6月30號也特別開這個議事審查委員會來\n\n7\n00:02:06,425 --> 00:02:15,079\n收後續怎麼樣來縮短這樣的一個調查的時間這樣子那為什麼7月5號那個林靜儀次長還在講說法院有問題那個法務部法院有什麼問題嗎沒有沒有\n\n8\n00:02:25,448 --> 00:02:40,698\n跟委員報告事實上這個資料是做一個如果已經是像醫師懲戒書或是判決書是已經公開資料這沒有問題但是外界非常期待應該更早的介入\n\n9\n00:02:41,278 --> 00:02:47,461\n然後把這個資訊做揭露比如他還在職場裡面提出性騷申訴的時候就來把這個資料做揭露那這個就很需要做討論以及需要有法規的依據那行政單位才可以做這件事情所以分兩個階段來講如果要再更往前他需要有法規的依據可能就需要修法這就是我們進議次長所講的\n\n10\n00:03:07,472 --> 00:03:29,218\n但是現在已經公開這些判決書或是醫師懲戒決定書那這個是公開部分我們就會做一個連結然後會在平台上做一個資訊公開那我就問你前段如果已經是提出來的這個個案已經在審查了那你們會直接要求他調離現行的職務停止嗎接受調查\n\n11\n00:03:31,257 --> 00:03:53,390\n如果按照我們現在相關的醫療的規定沒有辦法有這樣的依據那所以這一塊你們真的要研議喔因為你們這個會比其他的更鬆不是更嚴就是說如果他已經有疑似這樣的狀況只是因為還沒有被判決但是他持續在執行他相關的這個業務那如果他再辦呢\n\n12\n00:03:55,379 --> 00:04:10,833\n所以這一套機制我覺得這個可能部長你回去你們要思考因為這個在相關處置上面你們沒有一個暫時停止的這個機制的話我覺得是相對比較鬆散的這個你們要去思考一下接下來我要問的是有關於\n\n13\n00:04:15,593 --> 00:04:35,048\n風遠這個一家五口的命案我們現在看到這個詐騙案越來越多那當然這個警方跟檢調是主力但是如果說都是成年人一家五口還用這樣子的一個方式然後顯然他不太知道說我們的社會福利安全體系\n\n14\n00:04:36,649 --> 00:04:54,318\n其實是有提供幫忙的那這一塊的話我們要怎麼做目前的我們的社會救助法如果像這一種負債很高然後它是不是也是屬於重大變故生活陷於困境你們會提供幫忙嗎你們在審核標準的時候像這樣的案例符合標準嗎是不是我們請理事長來回答一下\n\n15\n00:05:01,516 --> 00:05:22,257\n包委員我想發生這個憾事我想這個真的是令人遺憾我想那個成因基本上大概就是說是因為詐騙嘛那我也跟委員報告就是說確實根據那個委員所說第21條第6款我們確實如果說有民眾如果有遭遇任何的重大變故以至於生活艱困的話都可以來跟我們地方縣市政府的這個社會局\n\n16\n00:05:23,919 --> 00:05:41,076\n先跟那個公所嘛然後也可以跟社會局這邊來提出相關的一個申請還有另外我們社安網這邊也有那個社會我們在各地方有156處的這個社福中心這個民眾如果有任何需要這裡不可以客氣而且這裡要趕緊第一時間callhelp\n\n17\n00:05:45,259 --> 00:06:11,648\n對因為我看到因為這些都是成年人那顯然他是有找了民意代表但是就沒有轉到衛福部相關的這個社政體系我是覺得有點可惜如果說有人可以再跟他多聊聊多談談可能不會做這麼就是極端的一個決定這真的是讓人家蠻遺憾的所以我希望你們在宣導上面也可以再去多加強好不好\n\n18\n00:06:12,787 --> 00:06:27,652\n我想這個事件真的是大家都很難過啦他的原因有多重從起言到後來的處理那個都一定要全部來檢討真的不要再發生這種情況這也不只說這個民安\n\n19\n00:06:28,732 --> 00:06:45,155\n甚至個案都可能會因為詐騙而涉到很大的身心創傷那這個怎麼用來協助是非常非常我們社會非常需要重視的好那接下來我要跟你們探討是有關於我們的貧窮線的標準跟世界各國比起來我們的貧窮線我們是畫得太嚴格了就是說我們可以服務的\n\n20\n00:06:58,178 --> 00:07:15,718\n我們的比例其實是比較低的這不代表台灣比較富裕啦這可能是跟我們的那個標準是有關係的那這一塊到底剛剛其實也有一些委員都有提出來了那這個社救盟呢他提出來的報告也說我們大概還有\n\n21\n00:07:17,219 --> 00:07:44,334\n實質的貧窮人口八成是沒有得到協助跟幫忙的那這一塊現在正在討論社救法那衛福部其實也要提一個版本那這一塊你們有沒有什麼樣的打算就是說可以擴大就是說現行的無論是2.6%或2.3%這真的都是太低的一個情況那可以怎麼樣去擴充讓真的有需要幫助的這些貧窮家庭\n\n22\n00:07:45,834 --> 00:08:11,295\n真的可以得到政府的幫忙,你們有沒有一個目標跟預計要怎麼做?謝謝委員,貧窮線的部分等一下請理事幫忙回答那基本上我們不是說這貧窮的線才在幫忙,我們有很多關於身心障礙如果是團體的一個障礙,算起來也有8點多的一個照顧力但還是低於國際上的那個不曉得,來理事\n\n23\n00:08:13,297 --> 00:08:29,696\n非常感謝委員的這個推詢我想其實會貧窮其實簡單來說就一句話入不敷出所以我們基本上如果是一個等式的話對不對當然有收入面也有支出面支出面其實就是誠如剛剛委員所說我們按照我們的這一個就是\n\n24\n00:08:31,218 --> 00:08:43,031\n支出面的話我為了跟委員報告我們其實就國際比較而言我們沒有比較差為什麼因為我們是以所謂最低生活費最低生活費是以所謂這一個可支配所得的60%我們是算60%\n\n25\n00:08:47,435 --> 00:09:04,263\nOECD國家是50%所以我們是優於OECD所以是第一點說明另外第二點說明如果按照這樣的一個標準所以這是支出面收入面我們基本上是受到三個因素影響是動產不動產還有一般所謂的涉算所得這三個因素去影響\n\n26\n00:09:05,925 --> 00:09:21,481\n我們現在目前沒錯誠如剛剛委員所說我們現在目前貧窮率來說是2.6但是我必須要強調一點就是說因為我們還有另外中低收入老人生活津貼身心障礙還有那個特殊禁慮家庭其實這些我想委員過去在台中也擔任過副市長\n\n27\n00:09:22,202 --> 00:09:47,648\n我們現在目前這個部分其實cover其實是8.67我這一點我必須要說數字上來說是這樣那其實你說夠嗎還是不夠所以我們跟委員報告就是說我們現在目前確實在我們現在預告的部分確實就是整個所謂的動產的部分我們現在貧窮縣其實全台灣有八條就是六都之外還有台灣省連江縣我們這邊現在目前動產的部分我們現在有這一個放寬\n\n28\n00:09:48,548 --> 00:10:02,294\n第二個不動產的部分因為現在目前房價所以這個我們也必須要放寬第三個就是剛剛委員我想很多委員大家都會關心的涉算所得的部分工作收入第五條第一項的部分你們都是用虛擬所得\n\n29\n00:10:03,694 --> 00:10:26,662\n對那這邊的話我跟委員報告因為這裡面牽涉到就是說整個兩個因素第一個就是說台灣老實說地下經濟還是蠻多的這個裡面這個所謂部分工時或者說這一個無一定雇主其實這裡面樣態老實說非常多我跟委員簡單報告這裡面我們就盤過有一個免納稅或投保的工作類型這裡面有攤販\n\n30\n00:10:27,922 --> 00:10:56,803\n農林榆木家庭手工民宿等等這些其實說實話這裡面高高低低確實有一些但是有一些需要還有像文化工作者這個也都在那裡面那這裡面我們要核實的話老實說這個有一些技術上當然我們必須要來克服這個我同意那我跟委員報告我們現在目前這個部分我們會採取稅率工資這邊我們可能會採取折算的方式你可以說看要折多少\n\n31\n00:10:57,603 --> 00:11:16,720\n八折或六折這個大家都可以來討論對我覺得這部分一定要檢討因為其實很多的中低收入所得者你知道他們在做什麼嗎他們就站在路邊發那個傳單蠻多這種的那個其實真的沒有多少錢那你把它設算那麼高\n\n32\n00:11:18,642 --> 00:11:34,918\n那個跟實際狀況真的是不吻合啦所以我覺得我們的政策既然這麼多年都沒有調整了這一次我覺得就應該要把它調到跟實際比較相襯然後讓這些真正所得低的人我知道你講的地下經濟台灣其實有一群這樣的人\n\n33\n00:11:37,661 --> 00:11:59,177\n但是真正中低收入他們更多是他這就打零工所以他所得沒有你虛擬設算的那麼高那這一群人你就應該要讓他得到實質的幫忙把他納進來你的照顧體系範圍好不好好是的好那就希望這個部分未來你們的版本也趕快提出來就是我們再來討論謝謝好的謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7145\t9648\t謝謝主席,那我們是不是請部長,還有法務部部長,剛剛提到那個狼醫的查詢平台\n24450\t41155\t之前你們次長對外講的時候是說這個要有法源依據然後呢法規不夠才來修法那現在到底是卡在哪裡是法源的問題還是行政作業來不及的問題\n43030\t61744\t好 謝謝委員 其實這個社會關注的問題 衛務部絕對不會說讓它delay所以我們大概雙管齊下 第一個在法源的方面我們當然要現在找到了沒 法源依據\n62344\t75561\t至少我們是可以公開可以優先來處理可以公開的資訊譬如說判決書這本來就是沒有判決權有時候也不能就把人家定罪\n78624\t96116\t這個部分我相信我們很快的,剛剛議事室有講,我們趕快跟司法院請教,後面怎麼樣執行。第二個就是說,怎麼樣把事情發生的時候,由社會局這個部分,我們會督導各縣市政府,轉到衛生局。\n99258\t125085\t縮短這樣的一個中心,衛生局就趕快來開相關的審議委員會所以這樣的流程也要儘快那就有壓抑的處罰的效果會更加的呈現我想這兩個方面我們都在努力所以分別在5月19號也跟相關事實討論這個法源的問題那在6月30號也特別開這個議事審查委員會來\n126425\t135079\t收後續怎麼樣來縮短這樣的一個調查的時間這樣子那為什麼7月5號那個林靜儀次長還在講說法院有問題那個法務部法院有什麼問題嗎沒有沒有\n145448\t160698\t跟委員報告事實上這個資料是做一個如果已經是像醫師懲戒書或是判決書是已經公開資料這沒有問題但是外界非常期待應該更早的介入\n161278\t167461\t然後把這個資訊做揭露比如他還在職場裡面提出性騷申訴的時候就來把這個資料做揭露那這個就很需要做討論以及需要有法規的依據那行政單位才可以做這件事情所以分兩個階段來講如果要再更往前他需要有法規的依據可能就需要修法這就是我們進議次長所講的\n187472\t209218\t但是現在已經公開這些判決書或是醫師懲戒決定書那這個是公開部分我們就會做一個連結然後會在平台上做一個資訊公開那我就問你前段如果已經是提出來的這個個案已經在審查了那你們會直接要求他調離現行的職務停止嗎 接受調查\n211257\t233390\t如果按照我們現在相關的醫療的規定沒有辦法有這樣的依據那所以這一塊你們真的要研議喔因為你們這個會比其他的更鬆不是更嚴就是說如果他已經有疑似這樣的狀況只是因為還沒有被判決但是他持續在執行他相關的這個業務那如果他再辦呢\n235379\t250833\t所以這一套機制我覺得這個可能部長你回去你們要思考因為這個在相關處置上面你們沒有一個暫時停止的這個機制的話我覺得是相對比較鬆散的這個你們要去思考一下接下來我要問的是有關於\n255593\t275048\t風遠這個一家五口的命案我們現在看到這個詐騙案越來越多那當然這個警方跟檢調是主力但是如果說都是成年人一家五口還用這樣子的一個方式然後顯然他不太知道說我們的社會福利安全體系\n276649\t294318\t其實是有提供幫忙的那這一塊的話我們要怎麼做目前的我們的社會救助法如果像這一種負債很高然後它是不是也是屬於重大變故生活陷於困境你們會提供幫忙嗎你們在審核標準的時候像這樣的案例符合標準嗎是不是我們請理事長來回答一下\n301516\t322257\t包委員 我想發生這個憾事 我想這個真的是令人遺憾我想那個成因基本上大概就是說是因為詐騙嘛那我也跟委員報告就是說確實根據那個委員所說第21條第6款我們確實如果說有民眾如果有遭遇任何的重大變故以至於生活艱困的話都可以來跟我們地方縣市政府的這個社會局\n323919\t341076\t先跟那個公所嘛然後也可以跟社會局這邊來提出相關的一個申請還有另外我們社安網這邊也有那個社會我們在各地方有156處的這個社福中心這個民眾如果有任何需要這裡不可以客氣而且這裡要趕緊第一時間call help\n345259\t371648\t對 因為我看到因為這些都是成年人那顯然他是有找了民意代表但是就沒有轉到衛福部相關的這個社政體系我是覺得有點可惜如果說有人可以再跟他多聊聊多談談可能不會做這麼就是極端的一個決定這真的是讓人家蠻遺憾的所以我希望你們在宣導上面也可以再去多加強好不好\n372787\t387652\t我想這個事件真的是大家都很難過啦他的原因有多重從起言到後來的處理那個都一定要全部來檢討真的不要再發生這種情況這也不只說這個民安\n388732\t405155\t甚至個案都可能會因為詐騙而涉到很大的身心創傷那這個怎麼用來協助是非常非常我們社會非常需要重視的好那接下來我要跟你們探討是有關於我們的貧窮線的標準跟世界各國比起來我們的貧窮線我們是畫得太嚴格了就是說我們可以服務的\n418178\t435718\t我們的比例其實是比較低的這不代表台灣比較富裕啦這可能是跟我們的那個標準是有關係的那這一塊到底剛剛其實也有一些委員都有提出來了那這個社救盟呢他提出來的報告也說我們大概還有\n437219\t464334\t實質的貧窮人口八成是沒有得到協助跟幫忙的那這一塊現在正在討論社救法那衛福部其實也要提一個版本那這一塊你們有沒有什麼樣的打算就是說可以擴大就是說現行的無論是2.6%或2.3%這真的都是太低的一個情況那可以怎麼樣去擴充讓真的有需要幫助的這些貧窮家庭\n465834\t491295\t真的可以得到政府的幫忙,你們有沒有一個目標跟預計要怎麼做?謝謝委員,貧窮線的部分等一下請理事幫忙回答那基本上我們不是說這貧窮的線才在幫忙,我們有很多關於身心障礙如果是團體的一個障礙,算起來也有8點多的一個照顧力但還是低於國際上的那個不曉得,來理事\n493297\t509696\t非常感謝委員的這個推詢我想其實會貧窮其實簡單來說就一句話入不敷出所以我們基本上如果是一個等式的話對不對當然有收入面也有支出面支出面其實就是誠如剛剛委員所說我們按照我們的這一個就是\n511218\t523031\t支出面的話我為了跟委員報告我們其實就國際比較而言我們沒有比較差為什麼因為我們是以所謂最低生活費最低生活費是以所謂這一個可支配所得的60%我們是算60%\n527435\t544263\tOECD國家是50%所以我們是優於OECD所以是第一點說明另外第二點說明如果按照這樣的一個標準所以這是支出面收入面我們基本上是受到三個因素影響是動產 不動產還有一般所謂的涉算所得這三個因素去影響\n545925\t561481\t我們現在目前沒錯 誠如剛剛委員所說我們現在目前貧窮率來說是2.6但是我必須要強調一點就是說因為我們還有另外中低收入老人生活津貼 身心障礙還有那個特殊禁慮家庭其實這些 我想委員過去在台中也擔任過副市長\n562202\t587648\t我們現在目前這個部分其實cover其實是8.67我這一點我必須要說數字上來說是這樣那其實你說夠嗎 還是不夠所以我們跟委員報告就是說我們現在目前確實在我們現在預告的部分確實就是整個所謂的動產的部分我們現在貧窮縣其實全台灣有八條就是六都之外還有台灣省連江縣我們這邊現在目前動產的部分我們現在有這一個放寬\n588548\t602294\t第二個不動產的部分因為現在目前房價所以這個我們也必須要放寬第三個就是剛剛委員我想很多委員大家都會關心的涉算所得的部分工作收入第五條第一項的部分你們都是用虛擬所得\n603694\t626662\t對那這邊的話我跟委員報告因為這裡面牽涉到就是說整個兩個因素第一個就是說台灣老實說地下經濟還是蠻多的這個裡面這個所謂部分工時或者說這一個無一定雇主其實這裡面樣態老實說非常多我跟委員簡單報告這裡面我們就盤過有一個免納稅或投保的工作類型這裡面有攤販\n627922\t656803\t農林榆木 家庭手工 民宿等等這些其實說實話這裡面高高低低確實有一些 但是有一些需要還有像文化工作者這個也都在那裡面那這裡面我們要核實的話老實說這個有一些技術上當然我們必須要來克服這個我同意那我跟委員報告我們現在目前這個部分我們會採取稅率工資這邊我們可能會採取折算的方式你可以說看要折多少\n657603\t676720\t八折或六折 這個大家都可以來討論對 我覺得這部分一定要檢討因為其實很多的中低收入所得者你知道他們在做什麼嗎 他們就站在路邊發那個傳單蠻多這種的 那個其實真的沒有多少錢那你把它設算那麼高\n678642\t694918\t那個跟實際狀況真的是不吻合啦所以我覺得我們的政策既然這麼多年都沒有調整了這一次我覺得就應該要把它調到跟實際比較相襯然後讓這些真正所得低的人我知道你講的地下經濟台灣其實有一群這樣的人\n697661\t719177\t但是真正中低收入他們更多是他這就打零工所以他所得沒有你虛擬設算的那麼高那這一群人你就應該要讓他得到實質的幫忙把他納進來你的照顧體系範圍 好不好好 是的好 那就希望這個部分未來你們的版本也趕快提出來就是我們再來討論 謝謝好的 謝謝委員 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,那我們是不是請部長,還有法務部部長,剛剛提到那個狼醫的查詢平台\n之前你們次長對外講的時候是說這個要有法源依據然後呢法規不夠才來修法那現在到底是卡在哪裡是法源的問題還是行政作業來不及的問題\n好 謝謝委員 其實這個社會關注的問題 衛務部絕對不會說讓它delay所以我們大概雙管齊下 第一個在法源的方面我們當然要現在找到了沒 法源依據\n至少我們是可以公開可以優先來處理可以公開的資訊譬如說判決書這本來就是沒有判決權有時候也不能就把人家定罪\n這個部分我相信我們很快的,剛剛議事室有講,我們趕快跟司法院請教,後面怎麼樣執行。第二個就是說,怎麼樣把事情發生的時候,由社會局這個部分,我們會督導各縣市政府,轉到衛生局。\n縮短這樣的一個中心,衛生局就趕快來開相關的審議委員會所以這樣的流程也要儘快那就有壓抑的處罰的效果會更加的呈現我想這兩個方面我們都在努力所以分別在5月19號也跟相關事實討論這個法源的問題那在6月30號也特別開這個議事審查委員會來\n收後續怎麼樣來縮短這樣的一個調查的時間這樣子那為什麼7月5號那個林靜儀次長還在講說法院有問題那個法務部法院有什麼問題嗎沒有沒有\n跟委員報告事實上這個資料是做一個如果已經是像醫師懲戒書或是判決書是已經公開資料這沒有問題但是外界非常期待應該更早的介入\n然後把這個資訊做揭露比如他還在職場裡面提出性騷申訴的時候就來把這個資料做揭露那這個就很需要做討論以及需要有法規的依據那行政單位才可以做這件事情所以分兩個階段來講如果要再更往前他需要有法規的依據可能就需要修法這就是我們進議次長所講的\n但是現在已經公開這些判決書或是醫師懲戒決定書那這個是公開部分我們就會做一個連結然後會在平台上做一個資訊公開那我就問你前段如果已經是提出來的這個個案已經在審查了那你們會直接要求他調離現行的職務停止嗎 接受調查\n如果按照我們現在相關的醫療的規定沒有辦法有這樣的依據那所以這一塊你們真的要研議喔因為你們這個會比其他的更鬆不是更嚴就是說如果他已經有疑似這樣的狀況只是因為還沒有被判決但是他持續在執行他相關的這個業務那如果他再辦呢\n所以這一套機制我覺得這個可能部長你回去你們要思考因為這個在相關處置上面你們沒有一個暫時停止的這個機制的話我覺得是相對比較鬆散的這個你們要去思考一下接下來我要問的是有關於\n風遠這個一家五口的命案我們現在看到這個詐騙案越來越多那當然這個警方跟檢調是主力但是如果說都是成年人一家五口還用這樣子的一個方式然後顯然他不太知道說我們的社會福利安全體系\n其實是有提供幫忙的那這一塊的話我們要怎麼做目前的我們的社會救助法如果像這一種負債很高然後它是不是也是屬於重大變故生活陷於困境你們會提供幫忙嗎你們在審核標準的時候像這樣的案例符合標準嗎是不是我們請理事長來回答一下\n包委員 我想發生這個憾事 我想這個真的是令人遺憾我想那個成因基本上大概就是說是因為詐騙嘛那我也跟委員報告就是說確實根據那個委員所說第21條第6款我們確實如果說有民眾如果有遭遇任何的重大變故以至於生活艱困的話都可以來跟我們地方縣市政府的這個社會局\n先跟那個公所嘛然後也可以跟社會局這邊來提出相關的一個申請還有另外我們社安網這邊也有那個社會我們在各地方有156處的這個社福中心這個民眾如果有任何需要這裡不可以客氣而且這裡要趕緊第一時間call help\n對 因為我看到因為這些都是成年人那顯然他是有找了民意代表但是就沒有轉到衛福部相關的這個社政體系我是覺得有點可惜如果說有人可以再跟他多聊聊多談談可能不會做這麼就是極端的一個決定這真的是讓人家蠻遺憾的所以我希望你們在宣導上面也可以再去多加強好不好\n我想這個事件真的是大家都很難過啦他的原因有多重從起言到後來的處理那個都一定要全部來檢討真的不要再發生這種情況這也不只說這個民安\n甚至個案都可能會因為詐騙而涉到很大的身心創傷那這個怎麼用來協助是非常非常我們社會非常需要重視的好那接下來我要跟你們探討是有關於我們的貧窮線的標準跟世界各國比起來我們的貧窮線我們是畫得太嚴格了就是說我們可以服務的\n我們的比例其實是比較低的這不代表台灣比較富裕啦這可能是跟我們的那個標準是有關係的那這一塊到底剛剛其實也有一些委員都有提出來了那這個社救盟呢他提出來的報告也說我們大概還有\n實質的貧窮人口八成是沒有得到協助跟幫忙的那這一塊現在正在討論社救法那衛福部其實也要提一個版本那這一塊你們有沒有什麼樣的打算就是說可以擴大就是說現行的無論是2.6%或2.3%這真的都是太低的一個情況那可以怎麼樣去擴充讓真的有需要幫助的這些貧窮家庭\n真的可以得到政府的幫忙,你們有沒有一個目標跟預計要怎麼做?謝謝委員,貧窮線的部分等一下請理事幫忙回答那基本上我們不是說這貧窮的線才在幫忙,我們有很多關於身心障礙如果是團體的一個障礙,算起來也有8點多的一個照顧力但還是低於國際上的那個不曉得,來理事\n非常感謝委員的這個推詢我想其實會貧窮其實簡單來說就一句話入不敷出所以我們基本上如果是一個等式的話對不對當然有收入面也有支出面支出面其實就是誠如剛剛委員所說我們按照我們的這一個就是\n支出面的話我為了跟委員報告我們其實就國際比較而言我們沒有比較差為什麼因為我們是以所謂最低生活費最低生活費是以所謂這一個可支配所得的60%我們是算60%\nOECD國家是50%所以我們是優於OECD所以是第一點說明另外第二點說明如果按照這樣的一個標準所以這是支出面收入面我們基本上是受到三個因素影響是動產 不動產還有一般所謂的涉算所得這三個因素去影響\n我們現在目前沒錯 誠如剛剛委員所說我們現在目前貧窮率來說是2.6但是我必須要強調一點就是說因為我們還有另外中低收入老人生活津貼 身心障礙還有那個特殊禁慮家庭其實這些 我想委員過去在台中也擔任過副市長\n我們現在目前這個部分其實cover其實是8.67我這一點我必須要說數字上來說是這樣那其實你說夠嗎 還是不夠所以我們跟委員報告就是說我們現在目前確實在我們現在預告的部分確實就是整個所謂的動產的部分我們現在貧窮縣其實全台灣有八條就是六都之外還有台灣省連江縣我們這邊現在目前動產的部分我們現在有這一個放寬\n第二個不動產的部分因為現在目前房價所以這個我們也必須要放寬第三個就是剛剛委員我想很多委員大家都會關心的涉算所得的部分工作收入第五條第一項的部分你們都是用虛擬所得\n對那這邊的話我跟委員報告因為這裡面牽涉到就是說整個兩個因素第一個就是說台灣老實說地下經濟還是蠻多的這個裡面這個所謂部分工時或者說這一個無一定雇主其實這裡面樣態老實說非常多我跟委員簡單報告這裡面我們就盤過有一個免納稅或投保的工作類型這裡面有攤販\n農林榆木 家庭手工 民宿等等這些其實說實話這裡面高高低低確實有一些 但是有一些需要還有像文化工作者這個也都在那裡面那這裡面我們要核實的話老實說這個有一些技術上當然我們必須要來克服這個我同意那我跟委員報告我們現在目前這個部分我們會採取稅率工資這邊我們可能會採取折算的方式你可以說看要折多少\n八折或六折 這個大家都可以來討論對 我覺得這部分一定要檢討因為其實很多的中低收入所得者你知道他們在做什麼嗎 他們就站在路邊發那個傳單蠻多這種的 那個其實真的沒有多少錢那你把它設算那麼高\n那個跟實際狀況真的是不吻合啦所以我覺得我們的政策既然這麼多年都沒有調整了這一次我覺得就應該要把它調到跟實際比較相襯然後讓這些真正所得低的人我知道你講的地下經濟台灣其實有一群這樣的人\n但是真正中低收入他們更多是他這就打零工所以他所得沒有你虛擬設算的那麼高那這一群人你就應該要讓他得到實質的幫忙把他納進來你的照顧體系範圍 好不好好 是的好 那就希望這個部分未來你們的版本也趕快提出來就是我們再來討論 謝謝好的 謝謝委員 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.145 --> 00:09.648\n謝謝主席,那我們是不是請部長,還有法務部部長,剛剛提到那個狼醫的查詢平台\n\n00:24.450 --> 00:41.155\n之前你們次長對外講的時候是說這個要有法源依據然後呢法規不夠才來修法那現在到底是卡在哪裡是法源的問題還是行政作業來不及的問題\n\n00:43.030 --> 01:01.744\n好謝謝委員其實這個社會關注的問題衛務部絕對不會說讓它delay所以我們大概雙管齊下第一個在法源的方面我們當然要現在找到了沒法源依據\n\n01:02.344 --> 01:15.561\n至少我們是可以公開可以優先來處理可以公開的資訊譬如說判決書這本來就是沒有判決權有時候也不能就把人家定罪\n\n01:18.624 --> 01:36.116\n這個部分我相信我們很快的,剛剛議事室有講,我們趕快跟司法院請教,後面怎麼樣執行。第二個就是說,怎麼樣把事情發生的時候,由社會局這個部分,我們會督導各縣市政府,轉到衛生局。\n\n01:39.258 --> 02:05.085\n縮短這樣的一個中心,衛生局就趕快來開相關的審議委員會所以這樣的流程也要儘快那就有壓抑的處罰的效果會更加的呈現我想這兩個方面我們都在努力所以分別在5月19號也跟相關事實討論這個法源的問題那在6月30號也特別開這個議事審查委員會來\n\n02:06.425 --> 02:15.079\n收後續怎麼樣來縮短這樣的一個調查的時間這樣子那為什麼7月5號那個林靜儀次長還在講說法院有問題那個法務部法院有什麼問題嗎沒有沒有\n\n02:25.448 --> 02:40.698\n跟委員報告事實上這個資料是做一個如果已經是像醫師懲戒書或是判決書是已經公開資料這沒有問題但是外界非常期待應該更早的介入\n\n02:41.278 --> 02:47.461\n然後把這個資訊做揭露比如他還在職場裡面提出性騷申訴的時候就來把這個資料做揭露那這個就很需要做討論以及需要有法規的依據那行政單位才可以做這件事情所以分兩個階段來講如果要再更往前他需要有法規的依據可能就需要修法這就是我們進議次長所講的\n\n03:07.472 --> 03:29.218\n但是現在已經公開這些判決書或是醫師懲戒決定書那這個是公開部分我們就會做一個連結然後會在平台上做一個資訊公開那我就問你前段如果已經是提出來的這個個案已經在審查了那你們會直接要求他調離現行的職務停止嗎接受調查\n\n03:31.257 --> 03:53.390\n如果按照我們現在相關的醫療的規定沒有辦法有這樣的依據那所以這一塊你們真的要研議喔因為你們這個會比其他的更鬆不是更嚴就是說如果他已經有疑似這樣的狀況只是因為還沒有被判決但是他持續在執行他相關的這個業務那如果他再辦呢\n\n03:55.379 --> 04:10.833\n所以這一套機制我覺得這個可能部長你回去你們要思考因為這個在相關處置上面你們沒有一個暫時停止的這個機制的話我覺得是相對比較鬆散的這個你們要去思考一下接下來我要問的是有關於\n\n04:15.593 --> 04:35.048\n風遠這個一家五口的命案我們現在看到這個詐騙案越來越多那當然這個警方跟檢調是主力但是如果說都是成年人一家五口還用這樣子的一個方式然後顯然他不太知道說我們的社會福利安全體系\n\n04:36.649 --> 04:54.318\n其實是有提供幫忙的那這一塊的話我們要怎麼做目前的我們的社會救助法如果像這一種負債很高然後它是不是也是屬於重大變故生活陷於困境你們會提供幫忙嗎你們在審核標準的時候像這樣的案例符合標準嗎是不是我們請理事長來回答一下\n\n05:01.516 --> 05:22.257\n包委員我想發生這個憾事我想這個真的是令人遺憾我想那個成因基本上大概就是說是因為詐騙嘛那我也跟委員報告就是說確實根據那個委員所說第21條第6款我們確實如果說有民眾如果有遭遇任何的重大變故以至於生活艱困的話都可以來跟我們地方縣市政府的這個社會局\n\n05:23.919 --> 05:41.076\n先跟那個公所嘛然後也可以跟社會局這邊來提出相關的一個申請還有另外我們社安網這邊也有那個社會我們在各地方有156處的這個社福中心這個民眾如果有任何需要這裡不可以客氣而且這裡要趕緊第一時間callhelp\n\n05:45.259 --> 06:11.648\n對因為我看到因為這些都是成年人那顯然他是有找了民意代表但是就沒有轉到衛福部相關的這個社政體系我是覺得有點可惜如果說有人可以再跟他多聊聊多談談可能不會做這麼就是極端的一個決定這真的是讓人家蠻遺憾的所以我希望你們在宣導上面也可以再去多加強好不好\n\n06:12.787 --> 06:27.652\n我想這個事件真的是大家都很難過啦他的原因有多重從起言到後來的處理那個都一定要全部來檢討真的不要再發生這種情況這也不只說這個民安\n\n06:28.732 --> 06:45.155\n甚至個案都可能會因為詐騙而涉到很大的身心創傷那這個怎麼用來協助是非常非常我們社會非常需要重視的好那接下來我要跟你們探討是有關於我們的貧窮線的標準跟世界各國比起來我們的貧窮線我們是畫得太嚴格了就是說我們可以服務的\n\n06:58.178 --> 07:15.718\n我們的比例其實是比較低的這不代表台灣比較富裕啦這可能是跟我們的那個標準是有關係的那這一塊到底剛剛其實也有一些委員都有提出來了那這個社救盟呢他提出來的報告也說我們大概還有\n\n07:17.219 --> 07:44.334\n實質的貧窮人口八成是沒有得到協助跟幫忙的那這一塊現在正在討論社救法那衛福部其實也要提一個版本那這一塊你們有沒有什麼樣的打算就是說可以擴大就是說現行的無論是2.6%或2.3%這真的都是太低的一個情況那可以怎麼樣去擴充讓真的有需要幫助的這些貧窮家庭\n\n07:45.834 --> 08:11.295\n真的可以得到政府的幫忙,你們有沒有一個目標跟預計要怎麼做?謝謝委員,貧窮線的部分等一下請理事幫忙回答那基本上我們不是說這貧窮的線才在幫忙,我們有很多關於身心障礙如果是團體的一個障礙,算起來也有8點多的一個照顧力但還是低於國際上的那個不曉得,來理事\n\n08:13.297 --> 08:29.696\n非常感謝委員的這個推詢我想其實會貧窮其實簡單來說就一句話入不敷出所以我們基本上如果是一個等式的話對不對當然有收入面也有支出面支出面其實就是誠如剛剛委員所說我們按照我們的這一個就是\n\n08:31.218 --> 08:43.031\n支出面的話我為了跟委員報告我們其實就國際比較而言我們沒有比較差為什麼因為我們是以所謂最低生活費最低生活費是以所謂這一個可支配所得的60%我們是算60%\n\n08:47.435 --> 09:04.263\nOECD國家是50%所以我們是優於OECD所以是第一點說明另外第二點說明如果按照這樣的一個標準所以這是支出面收入面我們基本上是受到三個因素影響是動產不動產還有一般所謂的涉算所得這三個因素去影響\n\n09:05.925 --> 09:21.481\n我們現在目前沒錯誠如剛剛委員所說我們現在目前貧窮率來說是2.6但是我必須要強調一點就是說因為我們還有另外中低收入老人生活津貼身心障礙還有那個特殊禁慮家庭其實這些我想委員過去在台中也擔任過副市長\n\n09:22.202 --> 09:47.648\n我們現在目前這個部分其實cover其實是8.67我這一點我必須要說數字上來說是這樣那其實你說夠嗎還是不夠所以我們跟委員報告就是說我們現在目前確實在我們現在預告的部分確實就是整個所謂的動產的部分我們現在貧窮縣其實全台灣有八條就是六都之外還有台灣省連江縣我們這邊現在目前動產的部分我們現在有這一個放寬\n\n09:48.548 --> 10:02.294\n第二個不動產的部分因為現在目前房價所以這個我們也必須要放寬第三個就是剛剛委員我想很多委員大家都會關心的涉算所得的部分工作收入第五條第一項的部分你們都是用虛擬所得\n\n10:03.694 --> 10:26.662\n對那這邊的話我跟委員報告因為這裡面牽涉到就是說整個兩個因素第一個就是說台灣老實說地下經濟還是蠻多的這個裡面這個所謂部分工時或者說這一個無一定雇主其實這裡面樣態老實說非常多我跟委員簡單報告這裡面我們就盤過有一個免納稅或投保的工作類型這裡面有攤販\n\n10:27.922 --> 10:56.803\n農林榆木家庭手工民宿等等這些其實說實話這裡面高高低低確實有一些但是有一些需要還有像文化工作者這個也都在那裡面那這裡面我們要核實的話老實說這個有一些技術上當然我們必須要來克服這個我同意那我跟委員報告我們現在目前這個部分我們會採取稅率工資這邊我們可能會採取折算的方式你可以說看要折多少\n\n10:57.603 --> 11:16.720\n八折或六折這個大家都可以來討論對我覺得這部分一定要檢討因為其實很多的中低收入所得者你知道他們在做什麼嗎他們就站在路邊發那個傳單蠻多這種的那個其實真的沒有多少錢那你把它設算那麼高\n\n11:18.642 --> 11:34.918\n那個跟實際狀況真的是不吻合啦所以我覺得我們的政策既然這麼多年都沒有調整了這一次我覺得就應該要把它調到跟實際比較相襯然後讓這些真正所得低的人我知道你講的地下經濟台灣其實有一群這樣的人\n\n11:37.661 --> 11:59.177\n但是真正中低收入他們更多是他這就打零工所以他所得沒有你虛擬設算的那麼高那這一群人你就應該要讓他得到實質的幫忙把他納進來你的照顧體系範圍好不好好是的好那就希望這個部分未來你們的版本也趕快提出來就是我們再來討論謝謝好的謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.145,"end":9.648,"text":"謝謝主席,那我們是不是請部長,還有法務部部長,剛剛提到那個狼醫的查詢平台"},{"start":24.45,"end":41.155,"text":"之前你們次長對外講的時候是說這個要有法源依據然後呢法規不夠才來修法那現在到底是卡在哪裡是法源的問題還是行政作業來不及的問題"},{"start":43.03,"end":61.744,"text":"好 謝謝委員 其實這個社會關注的問題 衛務部絕對不會說讓它delay所以我們大概雙管齊下 第一個在法源的方面我們當然要現在找到了沒 法源依據"},{"start":62.344,"end":75.561,"text":"至少我們是可以公開可以優先來處理可以公開的資訊譬如說判決書這本來就是沒有判決權有時候也不能就把人家定罪"},{"start":78.624,"end":96.116,"text":"這個部分我相信我們很快的,剛剛議事室有講,我們趕快跟司法院請教,後面怎麼樣執行。第二個就是說,怎麼樣把事情發生的時候,由社會局這個部分,我們會督導各縣市政府,轉到衛生局。"},{"start":99.258,"end":125.085,"text":"縮短這樣的一個中心,衛生局就趕快來開相關的審議委員會所以這樣的流程也要儘快那就有壓抑的處罰的效果會更加的呈現我想這兩個方面我們都在努力所以分別在5月19號也跟相關事實討論這個法源的問題那在6月30號也特別開這個議事審查委員會來"},{"start":126.425,"end":135.079,"text":"收後續怎麼樣來縮短這樣的一個調查的時間這樣子那為什麼7月5號那個林靜儀次長還在講說法院有問題那個法務部法院有什麼問題嗎沒有沒有"},{"start":145.448,"end":160.698,"text":"跟委員報告事實上這個資料是做一個如果已經是像醫師懲戒書或是判決書是已經公開資料這沒有問題但是外界非常期待應該更早的介入"},{"start":161.278,"end":167.461,"text":"然後把這個資訊做揭露比如他還在職場裡面提出性騷申訴的時候就來把這個資料做揭露那這個就很需要做討論以及需要有法規的依據那行政單位才可以做這件事情所以分兩個階段來講如果要再更往前他需要有法規的依據可能就需要修法這就是我們進議次長所講的"},{"start":187.472,"end":209.218,"text":"但是現在已經公開這些判決書或是醫師懲戒決定書那這個是公開部分我們就會做一個連結然後會在平台上做一個資訊公開那我就問你前段如果已經是提出來的這個個案已經在審查了那你們會直接要求他調離現行的職務停止嗎 接受調查"},{"start":211.257,"end":233.39,"text":"如果按照我們現在相關的醫療的規定沒有辦法有這樣的依據那所以這一塊你們真的要研議喔因為你們這個會比其他的更鬆不是更嚴就是說如果他已經有疑似這樣的狀況只是因為還沒有被判決但是他持續在執行他相關的這個業務那如果他再辦呢"},{"start":235.379,"end":250.833,"text":"所以這一套機制我覺得這個可能部長你回去你們要思考因為這個在相關處置上面你們沒有一個暫時停止的這個機制的話我覺得是相對比較鬆散的這個你們要去思考一下接下來我要問的是有關於"},{"start":255.593,"end":275.048,"text":"風遠這個一家五口的命案我們現在看到這個詐騙案越來越多那當然這個警方跟檢調是主力但是如果說都是成年人一家五口還用這樣子的一個方式然後顯然他不太知道說我們的社會福利安全體系"},{"start":276.649,"end":294.318,"text":"其實是有提供幫忙的那這一塊的話我們要怎麼做目前的我們的社會救助法如果像這一種負債很高然後它是不是也是屬於重大變故生活陷於困境你們會提供幫忙嗎你們在審核標準的時候像這樣的案例符合標準嗎是不是我們請理事長來回答一下"},{"start":301.516,"end":322.257,"text":"包委員 我想發生這個憾事 我想這個真的是令人遺憾我想那個成因基本上大概就是說是因為詐騙嘛那我也跟委員報告就是說確實根據那個委員所說第21條第6款我們確實如果說有民眾如果有遭遇任何的重大變故以至於生活艱困的話都可以來跟我們地方縣市政府的這個社會局"},{"start":323.919,"end":341.076,"text":"先跟那個公所嘛然後也可以跟社會局這邊來提出相關的一個申請還有另外我們社安網這邊也有那個社會我們在各地方有156處的這個社福中心這個民眾如果有任何需要這裡不可以客氣而且這裡要趕緊第一時間call help"},{"start":345.259,"end":371.648,"text":"對 因為我看到因為這些都是成年人那顯然他是有找了民意代表但是就沒有轉到衛福部相關的這個社政體系我是覺得有點可惜如果說有人可以再跟他多聊聊多談談可能不會做這麼就是極端的一個決定這真的是讓人家蠻遺憾的所以我希望你們在宣導上面也可以再去多加強好不好"},{"start":372.787,"end":387.652,"text":"我想這個事件真的是大家都很難過啦他的原因有多重從起言到後來的處理那個都一定要全部來檢討真的不要再發生這種情況這也不只說這個民安"},{"start":388.732,"end":405.155,"text":"甚至個案都可能會因為詐騙而涉到很大的身心創傷那這個怎麼用來協助是非常非常我們社會非常需要重視的好那接下來我要跟你們探討是有關於我們的貧窮線的標準跟世界各國比起來我們的貧窮線我們是畫得太嚴格了就是說我們可以服務的"},{"start":418.178,"end":435.718,"text":"我們的比例其實是比較低的這不代表台灣比較富裕啦這可能是跟我們的那個標準是有關係的那這一塊到底剛剛其實也有一些委員都有提出來了那這個社救盟呢他提出來的報告也說我們大概還有"},{"start":437.219,"end":464.334,"text":"實質的貧窮人口八成是沒有得到協助跟幫忙的那這一塊現在正在討論社救法那衛福部其實也要提一個版本那這一塊你們有沒有什麼樣的打算就是說可以擴大就是說現行的無論是2.6%或2.3%這真的都是太低的一個情況那可以怎麼樣去擴充讓真的有需要幫助的這些貧窮家庭"},{"start":465.834,"end":491.295,"text":"真的可以得到政府的幫忙,你們有沒有一個目標跟預計要怎麼做?謝謝委員,貧窮線的部分等一下請理事幫忙回答那基本上我們不是說這貧窮的線才在幫忙,我們有很多關於身心障礙如果是團體的一個障礙,算起來也有8點多的一個照顧力但還是低於國際上的那個不曉得,來理事"},{"start":493.297,"end":509.696,"text":"非常感謝委員的這個推詢我想其實會貧窮其實簡單來說就一句話入不敷出所以我們基本上如果是一個等式的話對不對當然有收入面也有支出面支出面其實就是誠如剛剛委員所說我們按照我們的這一個就是"},{"start":511.218,"end":523.031,"text":"支出面的話我為了跟委員報告我們其實就國際比較而言我們沒有比較差為什麼因為我們是以所謂最低生活費最低生活費是以所謂這一個可支配所得的60%我們是算60%"},{"start":527.435,"end":544.263,"text":"OECD國家是50%所以我們是優於OECD所以是第一點說明另外第二點說明如果按照這樣的一個標準所以這是支出面收入面我們基本上是受到三個因素影響是動產 不動產還有一般所謂的涉算所得這三個因素去影響"},{"start":545.925,"end":561.481,"text":"我們現在目前沒錯 誠如剛剛委員所說我們現在目前貧窮率來說是2.6但是我必須要強調一點就是說因為我們還有另外中低收入老人生活津貼 身心障礙還有那個特殊禁慮家庭其實這些 我想委員過去在台中也擔任過副市長"},{"start":562.202,"end":587.648,"text":"我們現在目前這個部分其實cover其實是8.67我這一點我必須要說數字上來說是這樣那其實你說夠嗎 還是不夠所以我們跟委員報告就是說我們現在目前確實在我們現在預告的部分確實就是整個所謂的動產的部分我們現在貧窮縣其實全台灣有八條就是六都之外還有台灣省連江縣我們這邊現在目前動產的部分我們現在有這一個放寬"},{"start":588.548,"end":602.294,"text":"第二個不動產的部分因為現在目前房價所以這個我們也必須要放寬第三個就是剛剛委員我想很多委員大家都會關心的涉算所得的部分工作收入第五條第一項的部分你們都是用虛擬所得"},{"start":603.694,"end":626.662,"text":"對那這邊的話我跟委員報告因為這裡面牽涉到就是說整個兩個因素第一個就是說台灣老實說地下經濟還是蠻多的這個裡面這個所謂部分工時或者說這一個無一定雇主其實這裡面樣態老實說非常多我跟委員簡單報告這裡面我們就盤過有一個免納稅或投保的工作類型這裡面有攤販"},{"start":627.922,"end":656.803,"text":"農林榆木 家庭手工 民宿等等這些其實說實話這裡面高高低低確實有一些 但是有一些需要還有像文化工作者這個也都在那裡面那這裡面我們要核實的話老實說這個有一些技術上當然我們必須要來克服這個我同意那我跟委員報告我們現在目前這個部分我們會採取稅率工資這邊我們可能會採取折算的方式你可以說看要折多少"},{"start":657.603,"end":676.72,"text":"八折或六折 這個大家都可以來討論對 我覺得這部分一定要檢討因為其實很多的中低收入所得者你知道他們在做什麼嗎 他們就站在路邊發那個傳單蠻多這種的 那個其實真的沒有多少錢那你把它設算那麼高"},{"start":678.642,"end":694.918,"text":"那個跟實際狀況真的是不吻合啦所以我覺得我們的政策既然這麼多年都沒有調整了這一次我覺得就應該要把它調到跟實際比較相襯然後讓這些真正所得低的人我知道你講的地下經濟台灣其實有一群這樣的人"},{"start":697.661,"end":719.177,"text":"但是真正中低收入他們更多是他這就打零工所以他所得沒有你虛擬設算的那麼高那這一群人你就應該要讓他得到實質的幫忙把他納進來你的照顧體系範圍 好不好好 是的好 那就希望這個部分未來你們的版本也趕快提出來就是我們再來討論 謝謝好的 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時9分）謝謝主席。請部長及法務部代表。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。剛剛主席提到狼醫查詢平臺，之前你們次長對外講要有法源依據，若法規不夠的話才修法，所以現在到底卡在哪裡？是法源問題，還是行政作業來不及的問題？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。這是社會關注的問題，所以衛福部絕對不會delay。我們會雙管齊下，首先在法源方面，我們當然要……"],["王委員育敏：現在找到法源依據了沒？"],["邱部長泰源：至少我們可以優先處理可公開的資訊，譬如判決書，畢竟尚未判決確定前不能逕自將人家定罪，剛剛醫事司有講，這部分我們會儘快向司法院請教有關後面該如何執行等事宜。第二個，在事情發生時，如何由社會局就這部分……我們會督導各縣市政府將案件轉到衛生局以縮短流程。如此衛生局可以儘快召開審議委員會，只要流程加快，處罰的效果會更加呈現，這兩方面我們都有在努力。我們於5月19日與相關司署討論法源問題，6月30日也特別召開醫事審查委員會，討論後續該如何縮短調查的時間。"],["王委員育敏：為什麼在7月5日林靜儀次長還再說法源有問題？請教法務部，法源有什麼問題嗎？這樣會一直卡著！"],["劉副司長玉菁：跟委員報告，該資料若為醫師懲戒書或判決書，屬已經公開的資料就沒有問題。但外界非常期待的，應該是更早介入，並揭露此資訊，比如在職場裡提出性騷申訴時就將資料揭露，這就很需要討論，也需要有法規依據，行政單位才可以做這件事。所以分兩個階段來講，如果要再更往前，就需要有法規依據，可能需要修法，此即林靜儀次長所講的。但就現在已經公開的判決書或醫師懲戒決定書來說，這是屬於公開的部分，我們會做連結，並於平臺上將資訊公開。"],["王委員育敏：我請問，如果是前段已經提出來的個案，也已經在審查了，你們會直接要求先調離現行職務，並停職接受調查嗎？"],["劉副司長玉菁：按照現行醫療相關之規定來看，沒辦法找到這樣的依據。"],["王委員育敏：可見這塊你們真的要研議，因為這部分會比其他的更鬆，而不是更嚴！也就是即使出現疑似這樣的狀況，但在尚未判決前，仍可持續執行相關業務，然後再犯呢？所以這一套機制，我覺得……部長，你們回去要思考。"],["邱部長泰源：好，是。"],["王委員育敏：在相關處置上，若沒有暫時停職的機制，我覺得相對比較鬆散的，所以你們要去思考一下。","接下來我要請問豐原一家五口的命案。現在詐騙案越來越多，當然，警方跟檢調是偵辦主力，但面對一家五口的成年人用這樣極端的方式，顯然他們並不知道我們的社會福利安全體系其實是可以提供幫忙的。這部分你們要怎麼做？以目前的社會救助法來說，這類負債很高的是否屬於重大變故，生活陷於困境？你們會提供幫忙嗎？你們在審核時，像這樣的案例符合標準嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是不是請呂次長來回答？"],["王委員育敏：請次長回答。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這件憾事的發生真的令人感到遺憾，成因基本上是因為詐騙嘛！"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["呂次長建德：跟委員報告，根據委員所說第二十一條第六款提到，若民眾遭遇任何重大變故，以致生活艱困，都可以向地方縣市政府社會局……可以先向公所申請，也可以向社會局提出相關申請。另外，我們社安網在全國各地有156處的社福中心，民眾如果有任何需要，真的不要客氣，而且真的要在第一時間call help。"],["王委員育敏：對，因為我看到這些都是成年人，雖然他們是有找了民意代表，但是並沒有轉到衛福部相關的社政體系，我是覺得有點可惜。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：如果有人可以再跟他們多聊聊、多談談，可能不會做這麼極端的決定，這真的是讓人家感到滿遺憾的，所以我希望你們在宣導上面也可以再去多加強，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，對於這個事件，我想大家真的都很難過，它的原因是多重的，從起源到後來的處理都一定要全部來檢討，真的不要再發生這種情況，不只是這個命案，甚至個案都可能會因為詐騙而受到很大的身心創傷，這個要怎麼樣來協助是我們社會非常需要去重視的。"],["王委員育敏：好，接下來我要跟你們探討的是有關於我們貧窮線的標準，跟世界各國比起來，我們的貧窮線畫得太嚴格了，就是我們可以服務的……我們的比例其實是比較低的，這不代表臺灣比較富裕，這可能是跟我們的標準有關係的，這一塊剛剛其實也有一些委員有提出來了，社救盟提出來的報告也說，我國實質貧窮人口大概還有八成是沒有得到協助跟幫忙的。關於這一塊，現在正在討論社救法，衛福部也要提一個版本，對於這一塊，你們有沒有什麼樣的打算？就是可以擴大，現行不論是2.6%或1.3%，真的都是太低的情況，可以怎麼樣去擴充，讓真的有需要幫助的這些貧窮家庭可以得到政府的幫忙，你們有沒有一個目標跟預計要怎麼做？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。貧窮線的部分，等一下請呂次幫忙回答。基本上，我們不是只有貧窮線的部分才在幫忙啦！我們有很多包括身心障礙……"],["王委員育敏：其他津貼？"],["邱部長泰源：各弱勢團體的照顧，算起來也有八點多的照顧率啦！"],["王委員育敏：但還是低於國際上的比率。"],["邱部長泰源：來，我請呂次來說明。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的垂詢，我想，其實會有貧窮，簡單來說就是一句話──入不敷出。"],["王委員育敏：對！"],["呂次長建德：所以基本上如果是一個等式的話，當然有收入面也有支出面，支出面就誠如剛剛委員所說的，我們按照我們的這個……支出面的話，我跟委員報告，我們其實跟國際比較而言，我們沒有比較差，為什麼？因為我們是以所謂最低生活費嘛！而最低生活費是以所謂可支配所得的60%，而OECD國家是50%喔，所以我們是優於OECD國家的，這是第一點說明。","另外，第二點說明，如果按照這樣的標準，這是支出面嘛！至於收入面，基本上是受到三個因素的影響，包括動產、不動產，還有一般所謂的設算所得，這三個factor去影響。沒錯，誠如剛剛委員所說的，我們現在的貧窮率是2.6%，但是我必須要強調一點，因為我們還有另外的中低收入老人生活津貼、身心障礙及特殊境遇家庭，委員過去在臺中也擔任過副市長，我們現在目前這個部分實際上是cover了8.67%，這一點我必須要說，從數字上來說是這樣。其實你說夠嗎？還是不夠。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["呂次長建德：所以跟委員報告的就是我們現在預告的部分，確實就是整個所謂動產的部分，我們現在的貧窮線，其實全臺灣有8條，就是六都之外，還有臺灣省、連江縣，目前我們在動產的部分有放寬；第二個，關於不動產的部分，因為目前的房價也……"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["呂次長建德：所以這個我們也研擬必須要放寬；第三個是剛剛委員及很多委員大家都關心的設算所得部分，在第五條之一的第一項，工作所得這邊……"],["王委員育敏：你們都是用虛擬所得。"],["呂次長建德：對，我跟委員報告，因為這裡面牽涉到兩個因素，第一個，老實說，臺灣的地下經濟還是滿多的，所謂部分工時或者無一定雇主，其實這裡面的樣態非常多，我跟委員簡單報告，這裡面我們去盤點過，有一個免納稅或投保的工作類型，這裡面有攤販、農林漁牧、家庭手工、民宿等等這些，其實說實在話，這裡面高高低低，確實有一些是有需要，還有像文化工作者也都包含在那裡面，這個我們要核實的話，老實說，這會有一些技術上的困難，當然我們必須要來克服，這個我同意。我跟委員報告，目前對於這個部分，我們會採取最低工資可能會以折算的方式啦！看要折多少，八折或六折？這個大家都可以來討論，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：對，我覺得這個部分一定要檢討，因為很多的中低收入所得者，你知道他們在做什麼嗎？他們就站在路邊發傳單，滿多這種的，那個其實真的沒有多少錢，你們把他的收入設算的那麼高，那跟實際狀況真的是不吻合啦。所以我覺得我們的政策既然這麼多年都沒有調整了，我覺得這一次就應該要把它調到跟實際比較相稱，然後讓這些真正所得低的人……我知道你講的地下經濟，臺灣其實有一群這樣的人，但是真正的中低收入者，他們更多是在打零工，所以他的所得沒有你虛擬設算的那麼高啦！對於這群人，就應該要讓他們得到實質的幫忙，把他們納進來你們的照顧體系範圍，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的。"],["王委員育敏：好，希望就這個部分，未來你們的版本也趕快提出來，我們再來討論。謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請陳菁徽委員詢答，陳委員詢答結束之後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-19","speakers":["劉建國","范雲","林月琴","楊瓊瓔","陳昭姿","王育敏","陳菁徽","林淑芬","涂權吉","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張雅琳","盧縣一","黃秀芳","楊曜","林楚茵","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","陳瑩"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2025-07-07"],"gazette_id":"1146604","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146604_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員楊曜等17人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二、委員范雲等17人擬\n具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正\n草案」案；四、委員黃秀芳等20人擬具「社會救助法第二條、第四條及第十四條條文修正草案」\n案；五、委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；六、委員黃捷等16人\n擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；七、委員蔡其昌等 17 人擬具「社會救助法第四\n條、第四條之一及第五條條文修正草案」案；八、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n條文修正草案」案；九、委員王鴻薇等26人擬具「社會救助法第十五條及第十五條之一條文修正\n草案」案；十、委員邱若華等20人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、台灣民眾黨\n黨團擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；十三、委員楊瓊\n瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救\n助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案；十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文\n修正草案」案；十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；十七、委\n員馬文君等20 人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十八、委員葉元之等 21 人擬具\n「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n及第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、委員林楚茵\n等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救\n助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草\n案」案；二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案；二十六、\n委員吳沛憶等16 人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委員邱鎮軍等 24 人擬具\n「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條\n之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二\n條文修正草案」案；三十、委員馬文君等16 人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案\n【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1146604_00020"}}}