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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等20人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員葉元之等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三十、委員馬文君等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-07-07","start_time":"2025-07-07T11:22:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-07T11:35:30+08:00","duration":797,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"163011","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163011","tool":"pyannote","id":"163011-pyannote"},"job_id":"KiPNX2RjaB3K1ikC","queued_at":"2025-07-07 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\"虛擬收入的算法就是這樣正確的說法應該涉算所得不是虛擬收入那所以針對這部分喔那對於很多街友長期失業者還有單親照顧者那是不是會排除到他們的收益權\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"虛\"}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 626.75, \"end\": 626.93, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 626.93, \"end\": 627.05, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 627.05, \"end\": 627.13, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 627.13, \"end\": 627.27, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 627.27, \"end\": 627.45, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 627.45, \"end\": 627.591, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 627.591, \"end\": 627.851, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 627.851, \"end\": 628.151, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 628.151, \"end\": 628.352, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 628.352, \"end\": 628.692, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"涉\", 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\"end\": 788.014, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 788.014, \"end\": 788.234, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"缺\", \"start\": 788.234, \"end\": 788.514, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"失\", \"start\": 788.514, \"end\": 788.674, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 788.674, \"end\": 789.375, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 789.375, \"end\": 789.575, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 789.575, \"end\": 789.715, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 789.715, \"end\": 789.915, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 789.915, \"end\": 790.275, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 790.275, \"end\": 790.435, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 790.435, \"end\": 791.416, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 791.416, \"end\": 792.016, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 792.016, \"end\": 792.136, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 792.136, \"end\": 792.337, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"遠\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 792.337, \"end\": 792.377, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 792.377, \"end\": 793.137, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 793.137, \"end\": 793.217, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 793.217, \"end\": 793.237, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,233 --> 00:00:12,510\n好謝謝主席那請我們部長跟社工室市長來請邱部長還有市長\n\n2\n00:00:16,980 --> 00:00:45,672\n國人好部長我請問一下最近因為剛好我們今天也是討論社會救助法剛好我們也有在講一萬現金還稅漁民這個問題剛好我們賴總統有在說他說這個一萬塊對人民的生活沒有太大的幫助可是因為我們在地方基層跑其實我們發現其實社會上還是蠻多人需要這筆一萬塊的不知道你有什麼看法\n\n3\n00:00:50,350 --> 00:01:08,819\n我想這個是要經過審慎的來評估,看怎麼樣既然有這樣一筆錢,怎麼樣讓國家的發展、人民的得到更好的一個健康照護跟得到更多的幸福感,所以我想我們政府也非常用心\n\n4\n00:01:09,699 --> 00:01:39,322\n再討論看看怎麼樣也許用的方法會讓得到的更多啦對沒關係部長我只是反應說其實我們在基層跑發現其實民眾對這1萬塊是蠻重視的也是表示現在一般民眾覺得這1萬塊對他們是蠻有幫助的好那根據我們行政院主計總處這個資料台灣的相對貧窮率我們常年都維持在12%左右\n\n5\n00:01:39,922 --> 00:01:55,880\n但是我們的社會福利制度下能夠取得低收入資格的我們發現不到2%那是不是表示我們在政府眼中我們要取得這個貧窮弱勢的資格上好像是不是有一些困難\n\n6\n00:02:00,429 --> 00:02:13,133\n我想這個是定義上的問題,等一下請理事跟委員報告但是至少我們在社會的救治、救助方面其實已經到達8.6%所以照顧上市是不輸給其他國家那至於我們剛剛這個貧窮縣這個部分,請理事\n\n7\n00:02:21,963 --> 00:02:49,119\n感謝非常感謝土耳原的關心我跟土耳原解釋我們貧窮的測量有的所謂絕對貧窮跟相對貧窮您現在所引用的是所謂相對貧窮相對貧窮在國際的上面是使可支配所得的百分之OECD國家是百分之五十台灣是定百分之六十這個我要第一點要說明所以根據這個標準全世界relativeproperty這個是一個學界中位數的百分之六十對沒錯可支配所得\n\n8\n00:02:51,161 --> 00:03:04,996\n如果以這樣的一個標準的話我跟委員報告全世界大家都是用貧窮線而不是用那個所謂那個相對貧窮那如果以這個指標來說的話台灣確實我們現在目前你說是12德國大概是18%英國大概15%但是現在問題來了現在問題就是說\n\n9\n00:03:09,781 --> 00:03:30,981\n委員現在說的是那個所謂的貧窮線那個貧窮線我們現在目前定下來沒錯像委員說的低收中低收加起來是2.56但是我現在要說的就是說我們除了這個低收中低收之外另外還有中低收老人生活津貼身心障礙者津貼還有弱勢家庭輔助這個零零總總加起來像剛剛部長向委員報告的是8.6喔\n\n10\n00:03:33,083 --> 00:03:54,937\n那日本是日本的社會救助的領取者才1.56而已現在我們重點就是說其實我們覺得我們這個社會救助啊基本上還是有很大的空間啦因為我們覺得常常他們要申請一些低收入戶一些制度上一些門檻上讓他們都沒有辦法去達到所以我們去了解你看這個相對貧窮數這個相對貧窮數12%就大概有270萬人那我們目前\n\n11\n00:04:02,663 --> 00:04:12,196\n低收入申請職業資格大概只有照顧到列車的大概只有25萬人所以我們覺得這個審查制度上可能\n\n12\n00:04:13,328 --> 00:04:32,556\n有一些問題啦當然我們可能是防止有人做假但是據我們了解好像還是有很多部分其實像真正請得到低收戶的其實他的生活其實是蠻富裕的像我們來看一下\n\n13\n00:04:33,516 --> 00:04:46,110\n我們這個投影我們在網路上有看到那大家都在討論像新聞報導裡面有很多說這個低收入戶我們看民眾對於這政策的評價跟刻板印象所以他們對於這個補助制度\n\n14\n00:04:49,914 --> 00:05:13,354\n確實漏接了很多實際貧窮的人那真的很多需要幫助救助的可是他去申請這低收入戶中低收入戶又請不到可是明明經濟能力很好甚至常常開豪車的人去去領這個低收入戶的問題所以我們想了解我們衛福部門有沒有掌握這個問題到底出在哪裡\n\n15\n00:05:14,909 --> 00:05:40,875\n好我想那個等一下喔理事來跟委員報告我們會去查緝啦絕對尤其是我們要求要去督查這個不會有開豪車零低收這個部分其實這個喔這個在基層大家都常常在詬病啦其實表示說我們很多人真正很困難可是要請都請不到還有很多人其實他很有錢\n\n16\n00:05:41,795 --> 00:06:06,557\n但是他知道這個制度上的缺失他就有辦法明明經濟狀況很好又可以去領這個低收入戶其實據我們了解他這個問題應該是出在我們低收入戶跟中低收入戶這個審查的門檻還有我們地方政府社會局這個量能的不足所以有造成這樣的問題所以我希望衛福部能夠來了解一下\n\n17\n00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:18,246\n非常感謝委員的一個推詢我想也是三個重點第一個就是社會救助其實根據地方自治法\n\n18\n00:06:22,091 --> 00:06:40,119\n地方自治法裡面得過規定事實上是屬於地方自治的業務所以這個確實是屬於地方的社會局跟鄉鎮公所所以這裡面我想最重要的一個精神應該就是說你應該要補助的就要拿到補助不應該補助就不應該拿到所以這裡面就有所謂精準的這一個補助的問題那這裡面會牽涉到幾個問題第一個就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的查核的這一個機制還有查核的人員\n\n19\n00:06:46,022 --> 00:07:13,523\n這裡面確實我在地方也曾經當過社會局長我知道確實救助科這邊社工科這邊的一個人力上面這個我想委員的這一個指出非常非常重要這個我們確實會來加強這部分人力應該有的補給希望這部分能夠衛福部來重視一下那針對我們社會救助法第4條跟第15條我們低收戶的認定是採納家庭的總收入還有家庭的總財產以及撫養能力\n\n20\n00:07:15,805 --> 00:07:23,467\n等等那這些低收入跟中低收入的資格審查我們是以家戶為單位是不是\n\n21\n00:07:25,236 --> 00:07:50,473\n好那以家戶為單位那我們舉一個例子那如果有一個長者他是收入狀況是符合低收入戶的資格但是他的子女收入過高或者有房產但是如果這長者的子女並沒有履行這個撫養的義務但是他家戶的總收入是超標的\n\n22\n00:07:51,374 --> 00:08:17,365\n那針對這部分有辦法照顧到這個長者嗎非常感謝委員沒錯那個第一點我們現在目前整個這一個計算單位就是以household以家戶這個家戶裡面其實事實上最重要就是要計算他的這個收入跟支出那個收入的部分主要就是你剛剛委員剛剛所說的事實上一個是動產一個是不動產我們現在的機制有辦法照顧到這種\n\n23\n00:08:18,365 --> 00:08:46,609\n子女沒有在撫養他可是子女收入很高那如果這兩個重點第一個按照我們的民法的規定其實事實上還是有互付這一個撫養之義務所以這個沒辦法這民法的規定就是這樣另外第二點確實如果出現您剛剛所說的那個情況的話那我們裡面有一個所謂的539條款就是說這裡面如果有同居共住但是呢他的這一個這個直系親屬比如他的子女這個有一些相關問題我們可以透過確實可以透過社工\n\n24\n00:08:47,689 --> 00:09:12,276\n這一個專業評估然後把他豁免這個我們是有這個機制的對就是特殊的情況啦所以可以處理是可以處理但是原則上根據我剛剛所說的民法親屬偏還有另外根據我們的社會福利基本法基本上都在規定就是說有這個家庭責任所以基本上這個父母養我們我們要奉養父母這本來就是我們天經地義的事啦\n\n25\n00:09:12,836 --> 00:09:29,188\n你知道我說針對這部分我們衛福部這邊有沒有什麼就是我剛剛說的就是我剛剛說的539我們有一個所謂539條款第5條第3項第9款的一個規定這裡面有一個所謂除外所以范雲委員他裡面他有因為有時候這個豁免\n\n26\n00:09:30,649 --> 00:09:55,827\n光個別的社工恐怕壓力也很大所以像范議員他有建議就是說我們是不是用組成一個委員會用專案的一個審查這個我們也覺得方向上面可以來朝這個方向來嚴厲所以我們是基本上想了解一下對於我們修法這方向希望能夠照顧到這一方面的漏接的這些長者當然謝謝\n\n27\n00:09:58,488 --> 00:10:25,065\n還有我們社會救助法有一個收入的認定中有一項我覺得民眾一直有在批評就是所謂的虛擬收入就是這個人他本身有具備工作能力但是即使他沒有實際收入好像我們還是以最低的工資來算他是有這個收入是不是這樣子所以就是虛擬收入\n\n28\n00:10:26,750 --> 00:10:42,107\n虛擬收入的算法就是這樣正確的說法應該涉算所得不是虛擬收入那所以針對這部分喔那對於很多街友長期失業者還有單親照顧者那是不是會排除到他們的收益權\n\n29\n00:10:44,464 --> 00:11:11,671\n包委如果說有這樣的一個部分的話我們其實在現在目前本部所研擬的這個新法裡面我們確實對於這個部分我們有來做檢討那當然這裡面我也要跟委員報告就是這裡面會有一些實際執行上的問題有三個部分第一個最重要事實上就是說對於這些因為陳如剛委員所說有的人可能是塞變族來捕走那這裡面可能就是說\n\n30\n00:11:12,711 --> 00:11:42,271\n因為台灣的地下經濟老實說按照經濟學者的估計有些人認為到三成有些人認為到四成那這裡面可能有包括攤販包括無一定雇主等等這些那還有甚至也包括有一些專業人員那他他可能他可能也在這個這個範疇裡面那我們現在目前的做法就是說好這個我們也認為用這種所謂設算可能有它不合理性那所以我們現在目前也有一些相關的一些的一些處理方式比如你可以打個就是最低工資比如你打個一定的折扣\n\n31\n00:11:43,191 --> 00:12:01,543\n或者說特別是針對像您剛剛所說街友街友的話部分確實這裡面可能要折扣可能要應該要更高就是說我們這地公司可能來做這一個相關的一個的一個的一個涉算那這個部分我們確實都有來都有在在做研議啦\n\n32\n00:12:02,163 --> 00:12:22,528\n對那我們現在提出就是說希望我們社公司針對這個虛擬收入這個制度去研議一下還有針對我們地方政府是不是可以彈性設計這個配套設施並且由中央來加強審核讓它透明化那我們在修法這部分應該可以來研議討論一下\n\n33\n00:12:23,908 --> 00:12:49,982\n好的那因為我們希望像這部分這些問題我們看到現在很多的數據明顯就是代表存在著有很多製度性的排除造成很多的真正貧窮的人一直跟我們反映他去請這個低收入戶中低收入戶真的都請不到可是據我們了解他的狀況真的生活上有很大的問題\n\n34\n00:12:51,002 --> 00:13:13,237\n然後變成有一些生活又很富裕的又請得到所以你看網路啊一些報導他們在討論這部分問題我也希望衛福部針對剛剛提的幾個地方重點來研議一下是不是針對這有一些缺失我們來加以改善好的謝謝委員指教謝謝謝謝圖遠謝謝部長市長接下來請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7233\t12510\t好 謝謝主席 那請我們部長跟社工室市長來 請邱部長還有市長\n16980\t45672\t國人好部長我請問一下最近因為剛好我們今天也是討論社會救助法剛好我們也有在講一萬現金還稅漁民這個問題剛好我們賴總統有在說他說這個一萬塊對人民的生活沒有太大的幫助可是因為我們在地方基層跑其實我們發現其實社會上還是蠻多人需要這筆一萬塊的不知道你有什麼看法\n50350\t68819\t我想這個是要經過審慎的來評估,看怎麼樣既然有這樣一筆錢,怎麼樣讓國家的發展、人民的得到更好的一個健康照護跟得到更多的幸福感,所以我想我們政府也非常用心\n69699\t99322\t再討論看看怎麼樣也許用的方法會讓得到的更多啦對沒關係部長我只是反應說其實我們在基層跑發現其實民眾對這1萬塊是蠻重視的也是表示現在一般民眾覺得這1萬塊對他們是蠻有幫助的好那根據我們行政院主計總處這個資料台灣的相對貧窮率我們常年都維持在12%左右\n99922\t115880\t但是我們的社會福利制度下能夠取得低收入資格的我們發現不到2%那是不是表示我們在政府眼中我們要取得這個貧窮弱勢的資格上好像是不是有一些困難\n120429\t133133\t我想這個是定義上的問題,等一下請理事跟委員報告但是至少我們在社會的救治、救助方面其實已經到達8.6%所以照顧上市是不輸給其他國家那至於我們剛剛這個貧窮縣這個部分,請理事\n141963\t169119\t感謝 非常感謝土耳原的關心我跟土耳原解釋我們貧窮的測量有的所謂絕對貧窮跟相對貧窮您現在所引用的是所謂相對貧窮相對貧窮在國際的上面是使可支配所得的百分之 OECD 國家是百分之五十台灣是定百分之六十這個我要第一點要說明所以根據這個標準全世界 relative property這個是一個學界中位數的百分之六十對 沒錯 可支配所得\n171161\t184996\t如果以這樣的一個標準的話我跟委員報告全世界大家都是用貧窮線而不是用那個所謂那個相對貧窮那如果以這個指標來說的話台灣確實我們現在目前你說是12德國大概是18%英國大概15%但是現在問題來了現在問題就是說\n189781\t210981\t委員現在說的是那個所謂的貧窮線那個貧窮線我們現在目前定下來沒錯像委員說的低收中低收加起來是2.56但是我現在要說的就是說我們除了這個低收中低收之外另外還有中低收老人生活津貼身心障礙者津貼還有弱勢家庭輔助這個零零總總加起來像剛剛部長向委員報告的是8.6喔\n213083\t234937\t那日本是日本的社會救助的領取者才1.56而已現在我們重點就是說其實我們覺得我們這個社會救助啊基本上還是有很大的空間啦因為我們覺得常常他們要申請一些低收入戶一些制度上一些門檻上讓他們都沒有辦法去達到所以我們去了解你看這個相對貧窮數這個相對貧窮數12%就大概有270萬人那我們目前\n242663\t252196\t低收入申請職業資格大概只有照顧到列車的大概只有25萬人所以我們覺得這個審查制度上可能\n253328\t272556\t有一些問題啦當然我們可能是防止有人做假但是據我們了解好像還是有很多部分其實像真正請得到低收戶的其實他的生活其實是蠻富裕的像我們來看一下\n273516\t286110\t我們這個投影我們在網路上有看到那大家都在討論像新聞報導裡面有很多說這個低收入戶我們看民眾對於這政策的評價跟刻板印象所以他們對於這個補助制度\n289914\t313354\t確實漏接了很多實際貧窮的人那真的很多需要幫助救助的可是他去申請這低收入戶中低收入戶又請不到可是明明經濟能力很好甚至常常開豪車的人去去領這個低收入戶的問題所以我們想了解我們衛福部門有沒有掌握這個問題到底出在哪裡\n314909\t340875\t好 我想那個等一下喔 理事來跟委員報告我們會去查緝啦 絕對尤其是我們要求要去督查這個不會有開豪車零低收這個部分其實這個喔 這個在基層大家都常常在詬病啦其實表示說我們很多人真正很困難可是要請都請不到還有很多人其實他很有錢\n341795\t366557\t但是他知道這個制度上的缺失他就有辦法明明經濟狀況很好又可以去領這個低收入戶其實據我們了解他這個問題應該是出在我們低收入戶跟中低收入戶這個審查的門檻還有我們地方政府社會局這個量能的不足所以有造成這樣的問題所以我希望衛福部能夠來了解一下\n369720\t378246\t非常感謝委員的一個推詢我想也是三個重點第一個就是社會救助其實根據地方自治法\n382091\t400119\t地方自治法裡面得過規定事實上是屬於地方自治的業務所以這個確實是屬於地方的社會局跟鄉鎮公所所以這裡面我想最重要的一個精神應該就是說你應該要補助的就要拿到補助不應該補助就不應該拿到所以這裡面就有所謂精準的這一個補助的問題那這裡面會牽涉到幾個問題第一個就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的查核的這一個機制還有查核的人員\n406022\t433523\t這裡面確實我在地方也曾經當過社會局長我知道確實救助科這邊社工科這邊的一個人力上面這個我想委員的這一個指出非常非常重要這個我們確實會來加強這部分人力應該有的補給希望這部分能夠衛福部來重視一下那針對我們社會救助法第4條跟第15條我們低收戶的認定是採納家庭的總收入還有家庭的總財產以及撫養能力\n435805\t443467\t等等那這些低收入跟中低收入的資格審查我們是以家戶為單位是不是\n445236\t470473\t好 那以家戶為單位那我們舉一個例子那如果有一個長者他是收入狀況是符合低收入戶的資格但是他的子女收入過高或者有房產但是如果這長者的子女並沒有履行這個撫養的義務但是他家戶的總收入是超標的\n471374\t497365\t那針對這部分有辦法照顧到這個長者嗎非常感謝委員沒錯那個第一點我們現在目前整個這一個計算單位就是以household以家戶這個家戶裡面其實事實上最重要就是要計算他的這個收入跟支出那個收入的部分主要就是你剛剛委員剛剛所說的事實上一個是動產一個是不動產我們現在的機制有辦法照顧到這種\n498365\t526609\t子女沒有在撫養他可是子女收入很高那如果這兩個重點第一個按照我們的民法的規定其實事實上還是有互付這一個撫養之義務所以這個沒辦法這民法的規定就是這樣另外第二點確實如果出現您剛剛所說的那個情況的話那我們裡面有一個所謂的539條款就是說這裡面如果有同居共住但是呢他的這一個這個直系親屬比如他的子女這個有一些相關問題我們可以透過確實可以透過社工\n527689\t552276\t這一個專業評估然後把他豁免這個我們是有這個機制的對就是特殊的情況啦所以可以處理是可以處理但是原則上根據我剛剛所說的民法 親屬偏還有另外根據我們的社會福利基本法基本上都在規定就是說有這個家庭責任所以基本上這個父母養我們我們要奉養父母這本來就是我們天經地義的事啦\n552836\t569188\t你知道我說針對這部分我們衛福部這邊有沒有什麼就是我剛剛說的就是我剛剛說的539我們有一個所謂539條款第5條第3項第9款的一個規定這裡面有一個所謂除外所以范雲委員他裡面他有因為有時候這個豁免\n570649\t595827\t光個別的社工恐怕壓力也很大所以像范議員他有建議就是說我們是不是用組成一個委員會用專案的一個審查這個我們也覺得方向上面可以來朝這個方向來嚴厲所以我們是基本上想了解一下對於我們修法這方向希望能夠照顧到這一方面的漏接的這些長者當然謝謝\n598488\t625065\t還有我們社會救助法有一個收入的認定中有一項我覺得民眾一直有在批評就是所謂的虛擬收入就是這個人他本身有具備工作能力但是即使他沒有實際收入好像我們還是以最低的工資來算他是有這個收入是不是這樣子所以就是虛擬收入\n626750\t642107\t虛擬收入的算法就是這樣正確的說法應該涉算所得不是虛擬收入那所以針對這部分喔那對於很多街友長期失業者還有單親照顧者那是不是會排除到他們的收益權\n644464\t671671\t包委如果說有這樣的一個部分的話我們其實在現在目前本部所研擬的這個新法裡面我們確實對於這個部分我們有來做檢討那當然這裡面我也要跟委員報告就是這裡面會有一些實際執行上的問題有三個部分第一個最重要事實上就是說對於這些因為陳如剛委員所說有的人可能是塞變族來捕走那這裡面可能就是說\n672711\t702271\t因為台灣的地下經濟老實說按照經濟學者的估計有些人認為到三成有些人認為到四成那這裡面可能有包括攤販包括無一定雇主等等這些那還有甚至也包括有一些專業人員那他他可能他可能也在這個這個範疇裡面那我們現在目前的做法就是說好這個我們也認為用這種所謂設算可能有它不合理性那所以我們現在目前也有一些相關的一些的一些處理方式比如你可以打個就是最低工資比如你打個一定的折扣\n703191\t721543\t或者說特別是針對像您剛剛所說街友街友的話部分確實這裡面可能要折扣可能要應該要更高就是說我們這地公司可能來做這一個相關的一個的一個的一個涉算那這個部分我們確實都有來都有在在做研議啦\n722163\t742528\t對 那我們現在提出就是說希望我們社公司針對這個虛擬收入這個制度去研議一下還有針對我們地方政府是不是可以彈性設計這個配套設施並且由中央來加強審核讓它透明化那我們在修法這部分應該可以來研議討論一下\n743908\t769982\t好的那因為我們希望像這部分這些問題我們看到現在很多的數據明顯就是代表存在著有很多製度性的排除造成很多的真正貧窮的人一直跟我們反映他去請這個低收入戶中低收入戶真的都請不到可是據我們了解他的狀況真的生活上有很大的問題\n771002\t793237\t然後變成有一些生活又很富裕的又請得到所以你看網路啊一些報導他們在討論這部分問題我也希望衛福部針對剛剛提的幾個地方重點來研議一下是不是針對這有一些缺失我們來加以改善好的 謝謝委員指教 謝謝謝謝圖遠 謝謝部長 市長接下來請\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們部長跟社工室市長來 請邱部長還有市長\n國人好部長我請問一下最近因為剛好我們今天也是討論社會救助法剛好我們也有在講一萬現金還稅漁民這個問題剛好我們賴總統有在說他說這個一萬塊對人民的生活沒有太大的幫助可是因為我們在地方基層跑其實我們發現其實社會上還是蠻多人需要這筆一萬塊的不知道你有什麼看法\n我想這個是要經過審慎的來評估,看怎麼樣既然有這樣一筆錢,怎麼樣讓國家的發展、人民的得到更好的一個健康照護跟得到更多的幸福感,所以我想我們政府也非常用心\n再討論看看怎麼樣也許用的方法會讓得到的更多啦對沒關係部長我只是反應說其實我們在基層跑發現其實民眾對這1萬塊是蠻重視的也是表示現在一般民眾覺得這1萬塊對他們是蠻有幫助的好那根據我們行政院主計總處這個資料台灣的相對貧窮率我們常年都維持在12%左右\n但是我們的社會福利制度下能夠取得低收入資格的我們發現不到2%那是不是表示我們在政府眼中我們要取得這個貧窮弱勢的資格上好像是不是有一些困難\n我想這個是定義上的問題,等一下請理事跟委員報告但是至少我們在社會的救治、救助方面其實已經到達8.6%所以照顧上市是不輸給其他國家那至於我們剛剛這個貧窮縣這個部分,請理事\n感謝 非常感謝土耳原的關心我跟土耳原解釋我們貧窮的測量有的所謂絕對貧窮跟相對貧窮您現在所引用的是所謂相對貧窮相對貧窮在國際的上面是使可支配所得的百分之 OECD 國家是百分之五十台灣是定百分之六十這個我要第一點要說明所以根據這個標準全世界 relative property這個是一個學界中位數的百分之六十對 沒錯 可支配所得\n如果以這樣的一個標準的話我跟委員報告全世界大家都是用貧窮線而不是用那個所謂那個相對貧窮那如果以這個指標來說的話台灣確實我們現在目前你說是12德國大概是18%英國大概15%但是現在問題來了現在問題就是說\n委員現在說的是那個所謂的貧窮線那個貧窮線我們現在目前定下來沒錯像委員說的低收中低收加起來是2.56但是我現在要說的就是說我們除了這個低收中低收之外另外還有中低收老人生活津貼身心障礙者津貼還有弱勢家庭輔助這個零零總總加起來像剛剛部長向委員報告的是8.6喔\n那日本是日本的社會救助的領取者才1.56而已現在我們重點就是說其實我們覺得我們這個社會救助啊基本上還是有很大的空間啦因為我們覺得常常他們要申請一些低收入戶一些制度上一些門檻上讓他們都沒有辦法去達到所以我們去了解你看這個相對貧窮數這個相對貧窮數12%就大概有270萬人那我們目前\n低收入申請職業資格大概只有照顧到列車的大概只有25萬人所以我們覺得這個審查制度上可能\n有一些問題啦當然我們可能是防止有人做假但是據我們了解好像還是有很多部分其實像真正請得到低收戶的其實他的生活其實是蠻富裕的像我們來看一下\n我們這個投影我們在網路上有看到那大家都在討論像新聞報導裡面有很多說這個低收入戶我們看民眾對於這政策的評價跟刻板印象所以他們對於這個補助制度\n確實漏接了很多實際貧窮的人那真的很多需要幫助救助的可是他去申請這低收入戶中低收入戶又請不到可是明明經濟能力很好甚至常常開豪車的人去去領這個低收入戶的問題所以我們想了解我們衛福部門有沒有掌握這個問題到底出在哪裡\n好 我想那個等一下喔 理事來跟委員報告我們會去查緝啦 絕對尤其是我們要求要去督查這個不會有開豪車零低收這個部分其實這個喔 這個在基層大家都常常在詬病啦其實表示說我們很多人真正很困難可是要請都請不到還有很多人其實他很有錢\n但是他知道這個制度上的缺失他就有辦法明明經濟狀況很好又可以去領這個低收入戶其實據我們了解他這個問題應該是出在我們低收入戶跟中低收入戶這個審查的門檻還有我們地方政府社會局這個量能的不足所以有造成這樣的問題所以我希望衛福部能夠來了解一下\n非常感謝委員的一個推詢我想也是三個重點第一個就是社會救助其實根據地方自治法\n地方自治法裡面得過規定事實上是屬於地方自治的業務所以這個確實是屬於地方的社會局跟鄉鎮公所所以這裡面我想最重要的一個精神應該就是說你應該要補助的就要拿到補助不應該補助就不應該拿到所以這裡面就有所謂精準的這一個補助的問題那這裡面會牽涉到幾個問題第一個就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的查核的這一個機制還有查核的人員\n這裡面確實我在地方也曾經當過社會局長我知道確實救助科這邊社工科這邊的一個人力上面這個我想委員的這一個指出非常非常重要這個我們確實會來加強這部分人力應該有的補給希望這部分能夠衛福部來重視一下那針對我們社會救助法第4條跟第15條我們低收戶的認定是採納家庭的總收入還有家庭的總財產以及撫養能力\n等等那這些低收入跟中低收入的資格審查我們是以家戶為單位是不是\n好 那以家戶為單位那我們舉一個例子那如果有一個長者他是收入狀況是符合低收入戶的資格但是他的子女收入過高或者有房產但是如果這長者的子女並沒有履行這個撫養的義務但是他家戶的總收入是超標的\n那針對這部分有辦法照顧到這個長者嗎非常感謝委員沒錯那個第一點我們現在目前整個這一個計算單位就是以household以家戶這個家戶裡面其實事實上最重要就是要計算他的這個收入跟支出那個收入的部分主要就是你剛剛委員剛剛所說的事實上一個是動產一個是不動產我們現在的機制有辦法照顧到這種\n子女沒有在撫養他可是子女收入很高那如果這兩個重點第一個按照我們的民法的規定其實事實上還是有互付這一個撫養之義務所以這個沒辦法這民法的規定就是這樣另外第二點確實如果出現您剛剛所說的那個情況的話那我們裡面有一個所謂的539條款就是說這裡面如果有同居共住但是呢他的這一個這個直系親屬比如他的子女這個有一些相關問題我們可以透過確實可以透過社工\n這一個專業評估然後把他豁免這個我們是有這個機制的對就是特殊的情況啦所以可以處理是可以處理但是原則上根據我剛剛所說的民法 親屬偏還有另外根據我們的社會福利基本法基本上都在規定就是說有這個家庭責任所以基本上這個父母養我們我們要奉養父母這本來就是我們天經地義的事啦\n你知道我說針對這部分我們衛福部這邊有沒有什麼就是我剛剛說的就是我剛剛說的539我們有一個所謂539條款第5條第3項第9款的一個規定這裡面有一個所謂除外所以范雲委員他裡面他有因為有時候這個豁免\n光個別的社工恐怕壓力也很大所以像范議員他有建議就是說我們是不是用組成一個委員會用專案的一個審查這個我們也覺得方向上面可以來朝這個方向來嚴厲所以我們是基本上想了解一下對於我們修法這方向希望能夠照顧到這一方面的漏接的這些長者當然謝謝\n還有我們社會救助法有一個收入的認定中有一項我覺得民眾一直有在批評就是所謂的虛擬收入就是這個人他本身有具備工作能力但是即使他沒有實際收入好像我們還是以最低的工資來算他是有這個收入是不是這樣子所以就是虛擬收入\n虛擬收入的算法就是這樣正確的說法應該涉算所得不是虛擬收入那所以針對這部分喔那對於很多街友長期失業者還有單親照顧者那是不是會排除到他們的收益權\n包委如果說有這樣的一個部分的話我們其實在現在目前本部所研擬的這個新法裡面我們確實對於這個部分我們有來做檢討那當然這裡面我也要跟委員報告就是這裡面會有一些實際執行上的問題有三個部分第一個最重要事實上就是說對於這些因為陳如剛委員所說有的人可能是塞變族來捕走那這裡面可能就是說\n因為台灣的地下經濟老實說按照經濟學者的估計有些人認為到三成有些人認為到四成那這裡面可能有包括攤販包括無一定雇主等等這些那還有甚至也包括有一些專業人員那他他可能他可能也在這個這個範疇裡面那我們現在目前的做法就是說好這個我們也認為用這種所謂設算可能有它不合理性那所以我們現在目前也有一些相關的一些的一些處理方式比如你可以打個就是最低工資比如你打個一定的折扣\n或者說特別是針對像您剛剛所說街友街友的話部分確實這裡面可能要折扣可能要應該要更高就是說我們這地公司可能來做這一個相關的一個的一個的一個涉算那這個部分我們確實都有來都有在在做研議啦\n對 那我們現在提出就是說希望我們社公司針對這個虛擬收入這個制度去研議一下還有針對我們地方政府是不是可以彈性設計這個配套設施並且由中央來加強審核讓它透明化那我們在修法這部分應該可以來研議討論一下\n好的那因為我們希望像這部分這些問題我們看到現在很多的數據明顯就是代表存在著有很多製度性的排除造成很多的真正貧窮的人一直跟我們反映他去請這個低收入戶中低收入戶真的都請不到可是據我們了解他的狀況真的生活上有很大的問題\n然後變成有一些生活又很富裕的又請得到所以你看網路啊一些報導他們在討論這部分問題我也希望衛福部針對剛剛提的幾個地方重點來研議一下是不是針對這有一些缺失我們來加以改善好的 謝謝委員指教 謝謝謝謝圖遠 謝謝部長 市長接下來請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.233 --> 00:12.510\n好謝謝主席那請我們部長跟社工室市長來請邱部長還有市長\n\n00:16.980 --> 00:45.672\n國人好部長我請問一下最近因為剛好我們今天也是討論社會救助法剛好我們也有在講一萬現金還稅漁民這個問題剛好我們賴總統有在說他說這個一萬塊對人民的生活沒有太大的幫助可是因為我們在地方基層跑其實我們發現其實社會上還是蠻多人需要這筆一萬塊的不知道你有什麼看法\n\n00:50.350 --> 01:08.819\n我想這個是要經過審慎的來評估,看怎麼樣既然有這樣一筆錢,怎麼樣讓國家的發展、人民的得到更好的一個健康照護跟得到更多的幸福感,所以我想我們政府也非常用心\n\n01:09.699 --> 01:39.322\n再討論看看怎麼樣也許用的方法會讓得到的更多啦對沒關係部長我只是反應說其實我們在基層跑發現其實民眾對這1萬塊是蠻重視的也是表示現在一般民眾覺得這1萬塊對他們是蠻有幫助的好那根據我們行政院主計總處這個資料台灣的相對貧窮率我們常年都維持在12%左右\n\n01:39.922 --> 01:55.880\n但是我們的社會福利制度下能夠取得低收入資格的我們發現不到2%那是不是表示我們在政府眼中我們要取得這個貧窮弱勢的資格上好像是不是有一些困難\n\n02:00.429 --> 02:13.133\n我想這個是定義上的問題,等一下請理事跟委員報告但是至少我們在社會的救治、救助方面其實已經到達8.6%所以照顧上市是不輸給其他國家那至於我們剛剛這個貧窮縣這個部分,請理事\n\n02:21.963 --> 02:49.119\n感謝非常感謝土耳原的關心我跟土耳原解釋我們貧窮的測量有的所謂絕對貧窮跟相對貧窮您現在所引用的是所謂相對貧窮相對貧窮在國際的上面是使可支配所得的百分之OECD國家是百分之五十台灣是定百分之六十這個我要第一點要說明所以根據這個標準全世界relativeproperty這個是一個學界中位數的百分之六十對沒錯可支配所得\n\n02:51.161 --> 03:04.996\n如果以這樣的一個標準的話我跟委員報告全世界大家都是用貧窮線而不是用那個所謂那個相對貧窮那如果以這個指標來說的話台灣確實我們現在目前你說是12德國大概是18%英國大概15%但是現在問題來了現在問題就是說\n\n03:09.781 --> 03:30.981\n委員現在說的是那個所謂的貧窮線那個貧窮線我們現在目前定下來沒錯像委員說的低收中低收加起來是2.56但是我現在要說的就是說我們除了這個低收中低收之外另外還有中低收老人生活津貼身心障礙者津貼還有弱勢家庭輔助這個零零總總加起來像剛剛部長向委員報告的是8.6喔\n\n03:33.083 --> 03:54.937\n那日本是日本的社會救助的領取者才1.56而已現在我們重點就是說其實我們覺得我們這個社會救助啊基本上還是有很大的空間啦因為我們覺得常常他們要申請一些低收入戶一些制度上一些門檻上讓他們都沒有辦法去達到所以我們去了解你看這個相對貧窮數這個相對貧窮數12%就大概有270萬人那我們目前\n\n04:02.663 --> 04:12.196\n低收入申請職業資格大概只有照顧到列車的大概只有25萬人所以我們覺得這個審查制度上可能\n\n04:13.328 --> 04:32.556\n有一些問題啦當然我們可能是防止有人做假但是據我們了解好像還是有很多部分其實像真正請得到低收戶的其實他的生活其實是蠻富裕的像我們來看一下\n\n04:33.516 --> 04:46.110\n我們這個投影我們在網路上有看到那大家都在討論像新聞報導裡面有很多說這個低收入戶我們看民眾對於這政策的評價跟刻板印象所以他們對於這個補助制度\n\n04:49.914 --> 05:13.354\n確實漏接了很多實際貧窮的人那真的很多需要幫助救助的可是他去申請這低收入戶中低收入戶又請不到可是明明經濟能力很好甚至常常開豪車的人去去領這個低收入戶的問題所以我們想了解我們衛福部門有沒有掌握這個問題到底出在哪裡\n\n05:14.909 --> 05:40.875\n好我想那個等一下喔理事來跟委員報告我們會去查緝啦絕對尤其是我們要求要去督查這個不會有開豪車零低收這個部分其實這個喔這個在基層大家都常常在詬病啦其實表示說我們很多人真正很困難可是要請都請不到還有很多人其實他很有錢\n\n05:41.795 --> 06:06.557\n但是他知道這個制度上的缺失他就有辦法明明經濟狀況很好又可以去領這個低收入戶其實據我們了解他這個問題應該是出在我們低收入戶跟中低收入戶這個審查的門檻還有我們地方政府社會局這個量能的不足所以有造成這樣的問題所以我希望衛福部能夠來了解一下\n\n06:09.720 --> 06:18.246\n非常感謝委員的一個推詢我想也是三個重點第一個就是社會救助其實根據地方自治法\n\n06:22.091 --> 06:40.119\n地方自治法裡面得過規定事實上是屬於地方自治的業務所以這個確實是屬於地方的社會局跟鄉鎮公所所以這裡面我想最重要的一個精神應該就是說你應該要補助的就要拿到補助不應該補助就不應該拿到所以這裡面就有所謂精準的這一個補助的問題那這裡面會牽涉到幾個問題第一個就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的查核的這一個機制還有查核的人員\n\n06:46.022 --> 07:13.523\n這裡面確實我在地方也曾經當過社會局長我知道確實救助科這邊社工科這邊的一個人力上面這個我想委員的這一個指出非常非常重要這個我們確實會來加強這部分人力應該有的補給希望這部分能夠衛福部來重視一下那針對我們社會救助法第4條跟第15條我們低收戶的認定是採納家庭的總收入還有家庭的總財產以及撫養能力\n\n07:15.805 --> 07:23.467\n等等那這些低收入跟中低收入的資格審查我們是以家戶為單位是不是\n\n07:25.236 --> 07:50.473\n好那以家戶為單位那我們舉一個例子那如果有一個長者他是收入狀況是符合低收入戶的資格但是他的子女收入過高或者有房產但是如果這長者的子女並沒有履行這個撫養的義務但是他家戶的總收入是超標的\n\n07:51.374 --> 08:17.365\n那針對這部分有辦法照顧到這個長者嗎非常感謝委員沒錯那個第一點我們現在目前整個這一個計算單位就是以household以家戶這個家戶裡面其實事實上最重要就是要計算他的這個收入跟支出那個收入的部分主要就是你剛剛委員剛剛所說的事實上一個是動產一個是不動產我們現在的機制有辦法照顧到這種\n\n08:18.365 --> 08:46.609\n子女沒有在撫養他可是子女收入很高那如果這兩個重點第一個按照我們的民法的規定其實事實上還是有互付這一個撫養之義務所以這個沒辦法這民法的規定就是這樣另外第二點確實如果出現您剛剛所說的那個情況的話那我們裡面有一個所謂的539條款就是說這裡面如果有同居共住但是呢他的這一個這個直系親屬比如他的子女這個有一些相關問題我們可以透過確實可以透過社工\n\n08:47.689 --> 09:12.276\n這一個專業評估然後把他豁免這個我們是有這個機制的對就是特殊的情況啦所以可以處理是可以處理但是原則上根據我剛剛所說的民法親屬偏還有另外根據我們的社會福利基本法基本上都在規定就是說有這個家庭責任所以基本上這個父母養我們我們要奉養父母這本來就是我們天經地義的事啦\n\n09:12.836 --> 09:29.188\n你知道我說針對這部分我們衛福部這邊有沒有什麼就是我剛剛說的就是我剛剛說的539我們有一個所謂539條款第5條第3項第9款的一個規定這裡面有一個所謂除外所以范雲委員他裡面他有因為有時候這個豁免\n\n09:30.649 --> 09:55.827\n光個別的社工恐怕壓力也很大所以像范議員他有建議就是說我們是不是用組成一個委員會用專案的一個審查這個我們也覺得方向上面可以來朝這個方向來嚴厲所以我們是基本上想了解一下對於我們修法這方向希望能夠照顧到這一方面的漏接的這些長者當然謝謝\n\n09:58.488 --> 10:25.065\n還有我們社會救助法有一個收入的認定中有一項我覺得民眾一直有在批評就是所謂的虛擬收入就是這個人他本身有具備工作能力但是即使他沒有實際收入好像我們還是以最低的工資來算他是有這個收入是不是這樣子所以就是虛擬收入\n\n10:26.750 --> 10:42.107\n虛擬收入的算法就是這樣正確的說法應該涉算所得不是虛擬收入那所以針對這部分喔那對於很多街友長期失業者還有單親照顧者那是不是會排除到他們的收益權\n\n10:44.464 --> 11:11.671\n包委如果說有這樣的一個部分的話我們其實在現在目前本部所研擬的這個新法裡面我們確實對於這個部分我們有來做檢討那當然這裡面我也要跟委員報告就是這裡面會有一些實際執行上的問題有三個部分第一個最重要事實上就是說對於這些因為陳如剛委員所說有的人可能是塞變族來捕走那這裡面可能就是說\n\n11:12.711 --> 11:42.271\n因為台灣的地下經濟老實說按照經濟學者的估計有些人認為到三成有些人認為到四成那這裡面可能有包括攤販包括無一定雇主等等這些那還有甚至也包括有一些專業人員那他他可能他可能也在這個這個範疇裡面那我們現在目前的做法就是說好這個我們也認為用這種所謂設算可能有它不合理性那所以我們現在目前也有一些相關的一些的一些處理方式比如你可以打個就是最低工資比如你打個一定的折扣\n\n11:43.191 --> 12:01.543\n或者說特別是針對像您剛剛所說街友街友的話部分確實這裡面可能要折扣可能要應該要更高就是說我們這地公司可能來做這一個相關的一個的一個的一個涉算那這個部分我們確實都有來都有在在做研議啦\n\n12:02.163 --> 12:22.528\n對那我們現在提出就是說希望我們社公司針對這個虛擬收入這個制度去研議一下還有針對我們地方政府是不是可以彈性設計這個配套設施並且由中央來加強審核讓它透明化那我們在修法這部分應該可以來研議討論一下\n\n12:23.908 --> 12:49.982\n好的那因為我們希望像這部分這些問題我們看到現在很多的數據明顯就是代表存在著有很多製度性的排除造成很多的真正貧窮的人一直跟我們反映他去請這個低收入戶中低收入戶真的都請不到可是據我們了解他的狀況真的生活上有很大的問題\n\n12:51.002 --> 13:13.237\n然後變成有一些生活又很富裕的又請得到所以你看網路啊一些報導他們在討論這部分問題我也希望衛福部針對剛剛提的幾個地方重點來研議一下是不是針對這有一些缺失我們來加以改善好的謝謝委員指教謝謝謝謝圖遠謝謝部長市長接下來請\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.233,"end":12.51,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們部長跟社工室市長來 請邱部長還有市長"},{"start":16.98,"end":45.672,"text":"國人好部長我請問一下最近因為剛好我們今天也是討論社會救助法剛好我們也有在講一萬現金還稅漁民這個問題剛好我們賴總統有在說他說這個一萬塊對人民的生活沒有太大的幫助可是因為我們在地方基層跑其實我們發現其實社會上還是蠻多人需要這筆一萬塊的不知道你有什麼看法"},{"start":50.35,"end":68.819,"text":"我想這個是要經過審慎的來評估,看怎麼樣既然有這樣一筆錢,怎麼樣讓國家的發展、人民的得到更好的一個健康照護跟得到更多的幸福感,所以我想我們政府也非常用心"},{"start":69.699,"end":99.322,"text":"再討論看看怎麼樣也許用的方法會讓得到的更多啦對沒關係部長我只是反應說其實我們在基層跑發現其實民眾對這1萬塊是蠻重視的也是表示現在一般民眾覺得這1萬塊對他們是蠻有幫助的好那根據我們行政院主計總處這個資料台灣的相對貧窮率我們常年都維持在12%左右"},{"start":99.922,"end":115.88,"text":"但是我們的社會福利制度下能夠取得低收入資格的我們發現不到2%那是不是表示我們在政府眼中我們要取得這個貧窮弱勢的資格上好像是不是有一些困難"},{"start":120.429,"end":133.133,"text":"我想這個是定義上的問題,等一下請理事跟委員報告但是至少我們在社會的救治、救助方面其實已經到達8.6%所以照顧上市是不輸給其他國家那至於我們剛剛這個貧窮縣這個部分,請理事"},{"start":141.963,"end":169.119,"text":"感謝 非常感謝土耳原的關心我跟土耳原解釋我們貧窮的測量有的所謂絕對貧窮跟相對貧窮您現在所引用的是所謂相對貧窮相對貧窮在國際的上面是使可支配所得的百分之 OECD 國家是百分之五十台灣是定百分之六十這個我要第一點要說明所以根據這個標準全世界 relative property這個是一個學界中位數的百分之六十對 沒錯 可支配所得"},{"start":171.161,"end":184.996,"text":"如果以這樣的一個標準的話我跟委員報告全世界大家都是用貧窮線而不是用那個所謂那個相對貧窮那如果以這個指標來說的話台灣確實我們現在目前你說是12德國大概是18%英國大概15%但是現在問題來了現在問題就是說"},{"start":189.781,"end":210.981,"text":"委員現在說的是那個所謂的貧窮線那個貧窮線我們現在目前定下來沒錯像委員說的低收中低收加起來是2.56但是我現在要說的就是說我們除了這個低收中低收之外另外還有中低收老人生活津貼身心障礙者津貼還有弱勢家庭輔助這個零零總總加起來像剛剛部長向委員報告的是8.6喔"},{"start":213.083,"end":234.937,"text":"那日本是日本的社會救助的領取者才1.56而已現在我們重點就是說其實我們覺得我們這個社會救助啊基本上還是有很大的空間啦因為我們覺得常常他們要申請一些低收入戶一些制度上一些門檻上讓他們都沒有辦法去達到所以我們去了解你看這個相對貧窮數這個相對貧窮數12%就大概有270萬人那我們目前"},{"start":242.663,"end":252.196,"text":"低收入申請職業資格大概只有照顧到列車的大概只有25萬人所以我們覺得這個審查制度上可能"},{"start":253.328,"end":272.556,"text":"有一些問題啦當然我們可能是防止有人做假但是據我們了解好像還是有很多部分其實像真正請得到低收戶的其實他的生活其實是蠻富裕的像我們來看一下"},{"start":273.516,"end":286.11,"text":"我們這個投影我們在網路上有看到那大家都在討論像新聞報導裡面有很多說這個低收入戶我們看民眾對於這政策的評價跟刻板印象所以他們對於這個補助制度"},{"start":289.914,"end":313.354,"text":"確實漏接了很多實際貧窮的人那真的很多需要幫助救助的可是他去申請這低收入戶中低收入戶又請不到可是明明經濟能力很好甚至常常開豪車的人去去領這個低收入戶的問題所以我們想了解我們衛福部門有沒有掌握這個問題到底出在哪裡"},{"start":314.909,"end":340.875,"text":"好 我想那個等一下喔 理事來跟委員報告我們會去查緝啦 絕對尤其是我們要求要去督查這個不會有開豪車零低收這個部分其實這個喔 這個在基層大家都常常在詬病啦其實表示說我們很多人真正很困難可是要請都請不到還有很多人其實他很有錢"},{"start":341.795,"end":366.557,"text":"但是他知道這個制度上的缺失他就有辦法明明經濟狀況很好又可以去領這個低收入戶其實據我們了解他這個問題應該是出在我們低收入戶跟中低收入戶這個審查的門檻還有我們地方政府社會局這個量能的不足所以有造成這樣的問題所以我希望衛福部能夠來了解一下"},{"start":369.72,"end":378.246,"text":"非常感謝委員的一個推詢我想也是三個重點第一個就是社會救助其實根據地方自治法"},{"start":382.091,"end":400.119,"text":"地方自治法裡面得過規定事實上是屬於地方自治的業務所以這個確實是屬於地方的社會局跟鄉鎮公所所以這裡面我想最重要的一個精神應該就是說你應該要補助的就要拿到補助不應該補助就不應該拿到所以這裡面就有所謂精準的這一個補助的問題那這裡面會牽涉到幾個問題第一個就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的查核的這一個機制還有查核的人員"},{"start":406.022,"end":433.523,"text":"這裡面確實我在地方也曾經當過社會局長我知道確實救助科這邊社工科這邊的一個人力上面這個我想委員的這一個指出非常非常重要這個我們確實會來加強這部分人力應該有的補給希望這部分能夠衛福部來重視一下那針對我們社會救助法第4條跟第15條我們低收戶的認定是採納家庭的總收入還有家庭的總財產以及撫養能力"},{"start":435.805,"end":443.467,"text":"等等那這些低收入跟中低收入的資格審查我們是以家戶為單位是不是"},{"start":445.236,"end":470.473,"text":"好 那以家戶為單位那我們舉一個例子那如果有一個長者他是收入狀況是符合低收入戶的資格但是他的子女收入過高或者有房產但是如果這長者的子女並沒有履行這個撫養的義務但是他家戶的總收入是超標的"},{"start":471.374,"end":497.365,"text":"那針對這部分有辦法照顧到這個長者嗎非常感謝委員沒錯那個第一點我們現在目前整個這一個計算單位就是以household以家戶這個家戶裡面其實事實上最重要就是要計算他的這個收入跟支出那個收入的部分主要就是你剛剛委員剛剛所說的事實上一個是動產一個是不動產我們現在的機制有辦法照顧到這種"},{"start":498.365,"end":526.609,"text":"子女沒有在撫養他可是子女收入很高那如果這兩個重點第一個按照我們的民法的規定其實事實上還是有互付這一個撫養之義務所以這個沒辦法這民法的規定就是這樣另外第二點確實如果出現您剛剛所說的那個情況的話那我們裡面有一個所謂的539條款就是說這裡面如果有同居共住但是呢他的這一個這個直系親屬比如他的子女這個有一些相關問題我們可以透過確實可以透過社工"},{"start":527.689,"end":552.276,"text":"這一個專業評估然後把他豁免這個我們是有這個機制的對就是特殊的情況啦所以可以處理是可以處理但是原則上根據我剛剛所說的民法 親屬偏還有另外根據我們的社會福利基本法基本上都在規定就是說有這個家庭責任所以基本上這個父母養我們我們要奉養父母這本來就是我們天經地義的事啦"},{"start":552.836,"end":569.188,"text":"你知道我說針對這部分我們衛福部這邊有沒有什麼就是我剛剛說的就是我剛剛說的539我們有一個所謂539條款第5條第3項第9款的一個規定這裡面有一個所謂除外所以范雲委員他裡面他有因為有時候這個豁免"},{"start":570.649,"end":595.827,"text":"光個別的社工恐怕壓力也很大所以像范議員他有建議就是說我們是不是用組成一個委員會用專案的一個審查這個我們也覺得方向上面可以來朝這個方向來嚴厲所以我們是基本上想了解一下對於我們修法這方向希望能夠照顧到這一方面的漏接的這些長者當然謝謝"},{"start":598.488,"end":625.065,"text":"還有我們社會救助法有一個收入的認定中有一項我覺得民眾一直有在批評就是所謂的虛擬收入就是這個人他本身有具備工作能力但是即使他沒有實際收入好像我們還是以最低的工資來算他是有這個收入是不是這樣子所以就是虛擬收入"},{"start":626.75,"end":642.107,"text":"虛擬收入的算法就是這樣正確的說法應該涉算所得不是虛擬收入那所以針對這部分喔那對於很多街友長期失業者還有單親照顧者那是不是會排除到他們的收益權"},{"start":644.464,"end":671.671,"text":"包委如果說有這樣的一個部分的話我們其實在現在目前本部所研擬的這個新法裡面我們確實對於這個部分我們有來做檢討那當然這裡面我也要跟委員報告就是這裡面會有一些實際執行上的問題有三個部分第一個最重要事實上就是說對於這些因為陳如剛委員所說有的人可能是塞變族來捕走那這裡面可能就是說"},{"start":672.711,"end":702.271,"text":"因為台灣的地下經濟老實說按照經濟學者的估計有些人認為到三成有些人認為到四成那這裡面可能有包括攤販包括無一定雇主等等這些那還有甚至也包括有一些專業人員那他他可能他可能也在這個這個範疇裡面那我們現在目前的做法就是說好這個我們也認為用這種所謂設算可能有它不合理性那所以我們現在目前也有一些相關的一些的一些處理方式比如你可以打個就是最低工資比如你打個一定的折扣"},{"start":703.191,"end":721.543,"text":"或者說特別是針對像您剛剛所說街友街友的話部分確實這裡面可能要折扣可能要應該要更高就是說我們這地公司可能來做這一個相關的一個的一個的一個涉算那這個部分我們確實都有來都有在在做研議啦"},{"start":722.163,"end":742.528,"text":"對 那我們現在提出就是說希望我們社公司針對這個虛擬收入這個制度去研議一下還有針對我們地方政府是不是可以彈性設計這個配套設施並且由中央來加強審核讓它透明化那我們在修法這部分應該可以來研議討論一下"},{"start":743.908,"end":769.982,"text":"好的那因為我們希望像這部分這些問題我們看到現在很多的數據明顯就是代表存在著有很多製度性的排除造成很多的真正貧窮的人一直跟我們反映他去請這個低收入戶中低收入戶真的都請不到可是據我們了解他的狀況真的生活上有很大的問題"},{"start":771.002,"end":793.237,"text":"然後變成有一些生活又很富裕的又請得到所以你看網路啊一些報導他們在討論這部分問題我也希望衛福部針對剛剛提的幾個地方重點來研議一下是不是針對這有一些缺失我們來加以改善好的 謝謝委員指教 謝謝謝謝圖遠 謝謝部長 市長接下來請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1041,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（11時22分）謝謝主席。請部長跟社工司司長。"],["主席：請邱部長，還有司長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長好。我請問一下，因為剛好我們今天也是討論社會救助法。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["涂委員權吉：我們也在講1萬現金還稅於民這個問題，剛好賴總統有說1萬塊對人民的生活沒有太大的幫助。可是以我們在地方基層跑，其實我們發現社會上還是蠻多人需要這筆1萬塊的，不曉得你有什麼看法？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想這個是要經過審慎地評估，既然有這樣一筆錢，看怎麼樣讓國家的發展、讓人民得到更好的健康照護跟更多的幸福感，所以我想政府也非常用心在討論，看看怎麼樣……也許用的方法會讓人民得到的更多。"],["涂委員權吉：對，沒關係，部長，我只是反映，其實我們在基層跑，發現民眾對這1萬塊還蠻重視的，也表示一般民眾現在覺得這1萬塊對他們是蠻有幫助的。好，根據行政院主計總處的資料，臺灣的相對貧窮率長年都維持在12%左右，但是在社會福利制度下能夠取得低收入戶資格的，我們發現不到2%，是不是表示在政府眼中，我們要取得貧窮、弱勢的資格上，好像有一些困難？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這是定義上的問題，等一下請呂次跟委員報告，但是至少我們在社會救助方面，已經到達百分之八點多，其實在8.6%，所以在照護上是不輸給其他國家。至於剛剛貧窮線的部分，請呂次說明。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝涂委員的關心，我跟委員解釋，我們貧窮的測量有所謂的絕對貧窮跟相對貧窮，你現在所引用是屬於相對貧窮，在國際上相對貧窮是指可支配所得的，OECD國家是50%，臺灣是訂60%，這是我第一點要說明的，所以根據這個標準，就全世界的relative poverty……"],["涂委員權吉：這是一個中位數的60%。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，可支配所得中位數。如果以這樣的標準的話，我跟委員報告，全世界大家一直都是用貧窮線，而不是用所謂的相對貧窮，如果以這個指標來說的話，臺灣確實，你說我們目前是12%。德國大概是18%，英國大概15%，但是問題來了，問題就是委員現在所說的那個貧窮線，我們目前訂下來……沒錯，像委員說的低收、中低收加起來是2.56%。但是我現在要說的是我們除了低收、中低收之外，另外還有老人生活津貼、身心障礙者津貼，還有弱勢家庭扶助，林林總總加起來像剛剛部長向委員報告的是8.6%，日本社會救助的領取者才1.56%而已，這個數據我要跟委員報告。"],["涂委員權吉：現在重點就是，其實我們覺得這個社會救助基本上還是有很大的空間，因為他們常常要申請低收入戶，在一些制度上、一些門檻上讓他們都沒有辦法去達到，所以我們就去了解，你看相對貧窮率12%就大概有270萬人，我們目前申請這些的資格、低收入，大概只有照顧到列冊的25萬人，所以我們覺得這個審查制度上可能有一些問題啦！當然可能是為防止有人做假，但是據我們了解好像還是有很多部分，像真正申請得到低收入的人，其實他的生活是蠻富裕的。我們看一下這個投影片，在網路上看到，大家都在討論，就像新聞報導裡面很多都說低收入戶，我們看一下民眾對於這個政策的評價跟刻板印象，所以對於這個補助制度，確實漏接了很多實際貧窮的人、很多真的需要幫助救助的，他去申請低收入戶、中低收入戶又申請不到；可是明明經濟能力很好甚至常常開豪車的人，卻可以領到低收入戶的部分，所以我們想了解衛福部有沒有掌握這個問題到底出在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想除了等一下呂次再跟委員報告以外，我們會去查緝，尤其是我們要求要去督察，不會有開豪車領低收的部分。"],["涂委員權吉：其實這個在基層大家都常常在詬病，表示很多真的很困難的人，可是要申請都請不到；卻有很多人其實很有錢，但是他知道這個制度上的缺失就有辦法，明明經濟狀況很好，又可以去領低收入戶的部分。其實據我們了解，這個問題應該是出在低收入戶跟中低收入戶審查的門檻，還有地方政府社會局量能的不足，所以造成這樣的問題，我希望衛福部能夠來了解一下。"],["邱部長泰源：是，請呂次跟委員報告。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的垂詢。我想也是三個重點，第一個就是社會救助，其實根據地方自治法的規定，事實上是屬於地方自治的業務，所以確實是屬於地方政府社會局跟鄉鎮公所，這裡面我想最重要的一個精神就是，應該要補助的人，就要拿到補助；不應該補助的人，就不應該拿到，所以就有所謂精準補助的問題。這裡面會牽涉到幾個問題，第一個就是剛剛委員所說的查核機制，還有查核人員，我在地方也曾經當過社會局長，我知道確實救助科、社工科的人力上面，我想委員指出的問題非常非常地重要，我們確實會來加強人力上應該補齊。"],["涂委員權吉：希望這部分衛福部能夠重視一下，針對社會救助法第四條跟第十五條，低收戶的認定是採納家庭的總收入，還有家庭的總財產以及扶養能力等等，那低收入跟中低收入的資格審查，我們是以家戶為單位，是不是？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯，以家戶。"],["涂委員權吉：好，以家戶為單位，我們舉一個例子，如果有一個長者的收入狀況是符合低收入戶資格，而他的子女收入過高或有房產，但是他的子女收入過高或者有房產，如果這長者的子女並沒有履行扶養的義務但家戶的總收入是超標的，針對這部分有辦法照顧到這個長者嗎？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員，沒錯，第一點，我們目前整個計算的單位就是以household、以家戶。這個家戶裡面事實上最重要就是要計算他的收入跟支出，收入的部分主要就是，委員剛剛所說，事實上一個是動產，一個是不動產……"],["涂委員權吉：不是，我們現在的機制有辦法照顧到這種子女沒有在扶養他，可是子女收入很高……"],["呂次長建德：這有兩個重點：第一個，按照我們民法的規定，事實上還是有互負扶養之義務，所以這個沒辦法，民法的規定就是這樣。另外第二點，確實如果出現您剛剛所說的情況的話，我們有一個所謂的五三九條款，就是說如果有同居共住，但是他的直系親屬，比如他的子女有一些相關問題，確實可以透過社工的專業評估把他豁免，我們是有這個機制的，就是特殊的情況啦！但是基本上……"],["涂委員權吉：所以可以處理？"],["呂次長建德：是可以處理，但原則上根據我剛剛所說的民法親屬編，還有另外根據社會福利基本法，基本上都有規定家庭責任，所以基本上父母養我們，我們要奉養父母，這本來就是天經地義的事啦……"],["涂委員權吉：我說針對這部分，衛福部有沒有什麼機制？"],["呂次長建德：就是我剛剛說的五三九，我們有一個所謂五三九條款，第五條第三項第九款的一個規定，這裡面有一個所謂除外。因為有時候這一個豁免，光個別的社工恐怕壓力也很大，所以像范雲委員有建議是不是組成一個委員會，用專案的一個審查。我們也覺得可以朝這個方向來研擬，這樣可以讓……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們基本上想了解一下，也對於我們修法的方向，希望能夠照顧到這一方面漏接的這些長者……"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：還有我們社會救助法，關於收入的認定中有一項民眾一直有在批評，就是所謂的虛擬收入。就是這個人他本身具備工作能力，但即使他沒有實際收入，好像我們還是以最低工資來算他是有收入，是不是這樣子？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["涂委員權吉：所以就是虛擬收入嘛？虛擬收入的算法就是這樣？"],["呂次長建德：正確的說法應該是設算所得，不是虛擬收入。"],["涂委員權吉：所以針對這一部分，對於很多街友、長期失業者，還有單親照顧者，是不是會排除到他們的受益權？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，如果有這個部分的話，其實目前本部所研擬的新法裡面確實對於這個部分有來做檢討。但是我也要跟委員報告，這裡面會有一些實際執行上的問題，有三個部分，第一個，最重要的事實上就是，因為誠如剛剛委員所說，有的人可能是開賓士來領補助，因為臺灣的地下經濟，老實說，按照經濟學者的估計有些人認為到三成，有些人認為到四成，這裡面可能有包括攤販、包括無一定雇主等等這些，還有甚至也包括有一些專業人員可能也在這個範疇裡面。目前的作法，我們也認為用這種所謂設算可能有它的不合理性，所以我們現在也有相關的一些處理方式，比如說最低工資打個一定的折扣，或者特別是針對像您剛剛所說的街友，確實這裡面可能折扣應該要更高，就是說我們最低工資可能來做相關的一個設算，這個部分我們確實都有在做研議。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我們現在提出就是希望社工司針對虛擬收入制度去研議一下，還有針對地方政府是不是可以彈性設計配套設施，並且由中央來加強審核讓它透明化？這部分我們在修法應該可以來研議討論一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["涂委員權吉：像這部分這些問題，我們看到現在很多的數據明顯就是代表存在著有很多制度性的排除，造成很多真正貧窮的人一直跟我們反映，他去申請低收入戶、中低收入戶真的都申請不到，可是據我們了解他的狀況真的生活上有很大的問題，然後變成有一些生活很富裕的又申請得到。所以你看網路、一些報導在討論這部分，我也希望衛福部針對剛剛提的幾個重點來研議一下，是不是針對有一些缺失加以改善？"],["邱部長泰源：好的、好的，謝謝委員指教。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員，謝謝部長、次長。","接下來請王正旭委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-19","speakers":["劉建國","范雲","林月琴","楊瓊瓔","陳昭姿","王育敏","陳菁徽","林淑芬","涂權吉","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張雅琳","盧縣一","黃秀芳","楊曜","林楚茵","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","陳瑩"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2025-07-07"],"gazette_id":"1146604","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146604_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員楊曜等17人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二、委員范雲等17人擬\n具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正\n草案」案；四、委員黃秀芳等20人擬具「社會救助法第二條、第四條及第十四條條文修正草案」\n案；五、委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；六、委員黃捷等16人\n擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；七、委員蔡其昌等 17 人擬具「社會救助法第四\n條、第四條之一及第五條條文修正草案」案；八、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n條文修正草案」案；九、委員王鴻薇等26人擬具「社會救助法第十五條及第十五條之一條文修正\n草案」案；十、委員邱若華等20人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、台灣民眾黨\n黨團擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；十三、委員楊瓊\n瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救\n助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案；十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文\n修正草案」案；十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；十七、委\n員馬文君等20 人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十八、委員葉元之等 21 人擬具\n「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n及第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、委員林楚茵\n等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救\n助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草\n案」案；二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案；二十六、\n委員吳沛憶等16 人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委員邱鎮軍等 24 人擬具\n「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條\n之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二\n條文修正草案」案；三十、委員馬文君等16 人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案\n【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1146604_00020"}}}