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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等20人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員葉元之等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三十、委員馬文君等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-07-07","start_time":"2025-07-07T11:35:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-07T11:47:23+08:00","duration":707,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"163012","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163012","tool":"pyannote","id":"163012-pyannote"},"job_id":"jwKz1uPLkYMt37o4","queued_at":"2025-07-07 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\"早上聽您的報告也知道說有一些處理的進度其實我們在今年就有一個提案針對總預算的部分有一個提案就是後來變成一個主決議就是針對於社會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"早\", \"start\": 56.9, \"end\": 57.1, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 57.1, \"end\": 57.86, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 57.86, \"end\": 57.98, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 57.98, \"end\": 58.26, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 58.26, \"end\": 58.481, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 58.481, \"end\": 58.681, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 58.681, \"end\": 58.801, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 58.801, \"end\": 59.281, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 59.281, \"end\": 59.441, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 59.441, \"end\": 59.541, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 59.541, \"end\": 60.242, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 60.242, \"end\": 60.342, 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\"說\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 86.243, \"end\": 86.503, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 86.503, \"end\": 87.684, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 87.684, \"end\": 88.084, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 88.084, \"end\": 88.305, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 88.305, \"end\": 89.366, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 89.366, \"end\": 89.826, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 89.826, \"end\": 90.166, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 90.166, \"end\": 91.388, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"倡\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 91.388, \"end\": 91.868, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 91.868, \"end\": 92.148, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 92.148, \"end\": 92.288, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 92.288, \"end\": 92.449, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 92.449, \"end\": 92.649, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 92.649, \"end\": 92.949, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 92.949, \"end\": 92.969, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 95.591, \"end\": 110.096, \"text\": \"社會救助法的一些修法的意見那到目前為止是有很多委員的版本的一些想法跟具體的要求那這部分請問目前衛護部有沒有相關的研議進度好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 95.591, \"end\": 95.831, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"救\", \"start\": 95.831, \"end\": 95.971, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 95.971, \"end\": 96.211, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 96.211, \"end\": 96.431, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 96.431, \"end\": 96.852, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 96.852, \"end\": 96.932, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 104.894, \"end\": 105.154, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 105.154, \"end\": 105.654, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 105.654, \"end\": 105.934, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 105.934, \"end\": 106.094, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 106.094, \"end\": 107.375, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 107.375, \"end\": 107.555, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 107.555, \"end\": 108.055, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 108.055, \"end\": 108.555, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 108.555, \"end\": 108.735, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 108.735, \"end\": 108.855, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 108.855, \"end\": 108.995, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 108.995, \"end\": 109.515, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 114.298, \"end\": 114.498, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 114.498, \"end\": 115.399, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"脫\"}, {\"word\": \"貧\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 115.399, \"end\": 115.579, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 115.579, \"end\": 116.2, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 116.2, \"end\": 116.36, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 116.36, \"end\": 116.7, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 116.7, \"end\": 117.0, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 117.0, \"end\": 117.101, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 117.101, \"end\": 117.281, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 117.281, \"end\": 117.641, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 117.641, \"end\": 117.981, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 117.981, 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498.599, \"end\": 498.699, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 498.699, \"end\": 498.84, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 498.84, \"end\": 498.98, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 498.98, \"end\": 499.16, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 499.16, \"end\": 499.34, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 499.34, \"end\": 499.461, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 499.461, \"end\": 499.641, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"周\", \"start\": 499.641, \"end\": 499.861, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 499.861, \"end\": 500.402, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 500.402, \"end\": 500.843, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 500.843, \"end\": 501.083, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"角\", \"start\": 501.083, \"end\": 501.303, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 501.303, \"end\": 501.964, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 501.964, \"end\": 502.285, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 502.285, \"end\": 502.505, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 502.505, \"end\": 503.366, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 503.366, \"end\": 503.467, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 503.467, \"end\": 503.627, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 503.627, \"end\": 503.767, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 503.767, \"end\": 503.967, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 503.967, \"end\": 504.188, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 504.188, \"end\": 504.428, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 504.428, \"end\": 504.448, \"score\": 0.594}]}, {\"start\": 505.549, \"end\": 524.847, \"text\": \"來調整再來就是因為我通常看癌症病人的時候有一些低收或者是中低收的患者他們就覺得很辛苦尤其是在積極治療癌症的這段時間常常要奔波在醫院跟家庭社區之間\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 505.549, \"end\": 507.011, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 507.011, \"end\": 507.231, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 507.231, \"end\": 507.371, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 507.371, \"end\": 507.912, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 507.912, \"end\": 508.152, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 508.152, \"end\": 508.712, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 508.712, \"end\": 508.872, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 508.872, \"end\": 509.293, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 509.293, \"end\": 509.973, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"癌\", \"start\": 509.973, \"end\": 510.154, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"症\", \"start\": 510.154, \"end\": 510.354, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"病\", \"start\": 510.354, \"end\": 510.514, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 510.514, \"end\": 510.654, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 510.654, \"end\": 510.974, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 510.974, \"end\": 511.915, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 511.915, \"end\": 511.935, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 511.935, \"end\": 512.155, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 512.155, \"end\": 513.096, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 513.096, \"end\": 513.276, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 513.276, \"end\": 513.577, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 513.577, \"end\": 513.737, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 513.737, \"end\": 513.897, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 513.897, \"end\": 514.237, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 514.237, \"end\": 514.457, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 514.457, \"end\": 514.597, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 514.597, \"end\": 514.798, \"score\": 0.985}, 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0.918}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 518.881, \"end\": 519.302, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"療\"}, {\"word\": \"癌\", \"start\": 519.302, \"end\": 519.622, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"症\", \"start\": 519.622, \"end\": 519.782, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 519.782, \"end\": 520.142, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 520.142, \"end\": 521.764, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 521.764, \"end\": 521.944, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 521.944, \"end\": 522.104, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 522.104, \"end\": 522.464, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"奔\", \"start\": 522.464, \"end\": 522.685, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"波\", \"start\": 522.685, \"end\": 522.925, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 522.925, \"end\": 523.345, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 523.345, \"end\": 523.605, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 523.605, \"end\": 523.846, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 523.846, \"end\": 524.066, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 524.066, \"end\": 524.446, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 524.446, \"end\": 524.827, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 524.827, \"end\": 524.847, \"score\": 0.596}, {\"word\": \"間\"}]}, {\"start\": 525.547, \"end\": 548.658, \"text\": \"所以說衍生的費用相對還是會比平常會更多我們現在看到第十二條就是針對於低收的這些成員什麼問題的時候可以有百分之四十以內的這些增加的補助當然這個感情的範疇這也是我們關心的包括其他相對的重症的部分大家會擔心說你現在為了要捏這個錢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 525.547, \"end\": 525.747, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 525.747, \"end\": 526.848, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"衍\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 526.848, \"end\": 526.988, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 526.988, \"end\": 527.348, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, 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\"end\": 699.093, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 699.093, \"end\": 699.294, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 699.294, \"end\": 699.755, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 699.755, \"end\": 699.855, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 699.855, \"end\": 699.875, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"託\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,817 --> 00:00:08,028\n好謝謝主席我們有請部長來請邱部長\n\n2\n00:00:24,676 --> 00:00:37,624\n今天是在討論社會救助法成門這個召委排的這樣的主題引起了很多迴響我相信其實在台灣在民主民主制度的運作之下\n\n3\n00:00:39,045 --> 00:00:55,158\n往這個福利國的方向持續邁進那對於不管是透過健保的協助整個制度的建立等等的事實上讓人民的生活可以至少有一定的這個保障能夠希望能夠朝著福利國的方向來前進\n\n4\n00:00:56,900 --> 00:01:11,428\n早上聽您的報告也知道說有一些處理的進度其實我們在今年就有一個提案針對總預算的部分有一個提案就是後來變成一個主決議就是針對於社會\n\n5\n00:01:13,150 --> 00:01:32,969\n這個有關的救助的業務上面期待說有更好的一些研議的過程就是今天我們所看到相關的內容那我們所收到的回覆裡面就是表示說目前透過各界持續來研議民間倡議團體跟社會各界對這樣的這個有關於\n\n6\n00:01:35,591 --> 00:01:50,096\n社會救助法的一些修法的意見那到目前為止是有很多委員的版本的一些想法跟具體的要求那這部分請問目前衛護部有沒有相關的研議進度好\n\n7\n00:01:51,716 --> 00:02:12,533\n所以我們本部將在經濟安全、脫貧、自利跟社會投資的核心思維下來持續研議兼顧減性便民、公平客觀、擴大照顧弱勢然後財政可負擔性提出務實一直在研議務實可行的修法內容\n\n8\n00:02:14,014 --> 00:02:39,275\n因為我們知道說今年都一直延會到8月底嘛那召委也許很希望能夠針對這個進度呢能夠把相關的社會救助法也希望10年沒有調整嘛希望說有進步所以這邊可能不管是願版或不版的一些內容也期待能夠盡快的讓\n\n9\n00:02:40,075 --> 00:02:51,727\n社會了解在討論的時候可以更聚焦一些再來就是家戶所得平均分配制度大多數委員會講過\n\n10\n00:02:53,464 --> 00:03:11,469\n因為依照第四條是有規範的是所謂低收入戶的一些基本的費用第四之一是針對中低收入戶不過它的概算就是剛才都講得很清楚家庭總收入平均分配全家的人口\n\n11\n00:03:12,169 --> 00:03:38,654\n就是分子分母是有很完整的這個定義那不過那個定義就比喻和民法還有關係包括說你家裡是二十人住在一起家庭都是大家庭嘛你有血緣關係住在一起大家互相的協助有收入大家跪在一起那有這些需要使用的時候就全家來分攤這是非常清楚的不過我們也知道這個社會改變太快了\n\n12\n00:03:41,415 --> 00:04:00,302\n整個社會結構人口的改變好像有血親或同一個父親也不一定會住在一起現在社務因為血親的關係把它放在一起可是它又不見得能夠有好的一個互相生活的這種協助條件其實沒有什麼條件剛才處長說的539條款\n\n13\n00:04:06,066 --> 00:04:21,624\n再來,這剛好什麼比較好的辦法,大家在思考的時候,目前部裡有沒有這些方面希望能夠前進的方向?好,謝謝委員,是不是可以,你自己來報告?非常感謝王正修委員對本案的關心\n\n14\n00:04:23,466 --> 00:04:45,422\n這個確實就像陳陸委員剛剛所說的我們這裡面就是第五條第五條的這一個第一項裡面確實就是規範這個裡面屬於所謂同居共財者的那個計算方式但是也有一些事實上我們那個第三另外我們有一些除外的規定譬如說以前說你女兒女兒你女兒你會嫁出去這個我們確實在這裡面我們也有做相關的一個排除\n\n15\n00:04:51,607 --> 00:05:15,935\n最重要的一個就是說因為老實說申請社會救助這個情況老實說我應該很多我們這裡面我們有另外一個就是剛剛跟委員報告的就是我們有第五條第三項第九款這裡面我們就會授權這裡面的承辦的這個社工他在做完評估之後如果有特殊的情況的話事實上是可以有一些排除或免的一個情況\n\n16\n00:05:17,195 --> 00:05:31,063\n是還是需要地方政府處理嘛對沒錯我們現在有想到地方政府包括這些辛苦的社工去處理這些問題的時候有沒有回報到中央說遇到什麼比較具體的困難要怎麼改革\n\n17\n00:05:31,923 --> 00:05:43,454\n有報告委員因為我跟委員報告就是以前我在台中做過社會局長嘛這個裡面我們會透過幾個機制第一個就是說社工他們自己本身都會有一些自己的評估訪視評估然後其實有這個情況都要專案簽給局長\n\n18\n00:05:47,678 --> 00:06:13,576\n他來做一個最後的一個確認那我們其實我們平常也我們大概部長的一個主持之下我們固定也都有那個社會證還有社證的一個聯繫匯報那像這些聯繫匯報我們也會把這些相關的一個一些樣態拿出來做一些討論就是說有一些真的是雖然特例可是特例多了我們以後可能會來作為修法來作為未來我們現在目前修法\n\n19\n00:06:16,758 --> 00:06:26,627\n的一個根據所以實務上是可以解決是可以解決比較都會區的跟比較非都會區的都留問題有一樣嗎改革問題的方式會不會有一個多元的機制來解決這個困境\n\n20\n00:06:34,493 --> 00:06:55,255\n這個確實沒錯因為確實像在特別在像城市的話對不對像杜魏區有一些就是說他土地持份就土地持份的那個問題還有另外一個就是說剛剛所說的所謂劣跡人口的那部分可能也會有一些確實也會有一些城鄉之間的差異是請問你們大家都是都很多土地\n\n21\n00:06:55,796 --> 00:07:03,178\n一直噴一直噴到底算不算低收那就很麻煩所以希望將來你檢討這個問題的時候把這些細節也能夠考量進去我們現在目前公佈的新法裡面這些樣態都有來做一些相關的考量\n\n22\n00:07:15,918 --> 00:07:39,130\n好好再來就是剛才剛才也說的這個虛擬收入啦虛擬收入我們也知道它是一個好像是收入不過這個收入是被分配到的根據五之一碰到的有工作能力還有沒有就業的人他基本上就會說你就是有這一筆的收入這部分就要調整了要調整來奉獻\n\n23\n00:07:43,993 --> 00:08:09,426\n因為看起來怪怪的怪怪的就是什麼人有工作能力的認定你一天要告訴他就是因為你有工作能力你不去做工作你也要自己收入算你錢其實他可能也不去做工作他也沒有這個收入不過帳面上就是有這個收入當然我們不希望說因為他為了要領這個費用所以就用選擇那種本來有工作能力\n\n24\n00:08:10,066 --> 00:08:24,448\n不替社會做事情不替家庭做事情這個也要當然要去處理不過這百分之百可能再麻煩看有什麼更好的方式一般的考量非常周全我們從各個角度對待考量來調整而且很精準的\n\n25\n00:08:25,549 --> 00:08:44,847\n來調整再來就是因為我通常看癌症病人的時候有一些低收或者是中低收的患者他們就覺得很辛苦尤其是在積極治療癌症的這段時間常常要奔波在醫院跟家庭社區之間\n\n26\n00:08:45,547 --> 00:09:08,658\n所以說衍生的費用相對還是會比平常會更多我們現在看到第十二條就是針對於低收的這些成員什麼問題的時候可以有百分之四十以內的這些增加的補助當然這個感情的範疇這也是我們關心的包括其他相對的重症的部分大家會擔心說你現在為了要捏這個錢\n\n27\n00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:31,045\n所以我就特別去延長我這個重症期間的這個期限當然這個就是一種反淘汰就是一個不好的行為不過其實如果你積極治療階段這就是有一些方法我們要來把這個真的有數的過程可以讓他有比較好的\n\n28\n00:09:32,186 --> 00:09:54,241\n這個補助,這個補助就是適當時間嘛這個當然在處理主管機關就會比較辛苦一點啦這裏不知道有什麼比較好的方式可以研議看看嗎這莊委也很關心我想那個中大會拿中大生命塔的確都需要我們來照顧那在健保署或者是在醫界方面也會來檢討在什麼時候\n\n29\n00:09:57,864 --> 00:10:13,102\n就是說一段時間一段時間的問題嘛這中間在中大傷病的治療或在這個持卡的期間啦那我想應該給他們更多的照顧跟補助\n\n30\n00:10:16,854 --> 00:10:43,105\n因為剛剛委員其實有講他還是有點道德風險所以我們需要進一步的演繹是啊這看我們有什麼比較好的方式回到這個積極治療期啦這個時間可能是比較需要大家幫忙嘛他如果把這個病底的好事當然對社會來講就比較有幫忙的好最大的部分就是這個我們要經過一個靠北的疫情\n\n31\n00:10:44,345 --> 00:11:06,413\n那段時間都特別預算什麼問題來介紹一些生活的輔助尤其是對中低收戶的民眾如果遇到疫情的時候現在十六之三是發生國內經濟情形發生重大變化當然疫情會不會就造成國內經濟的情形發生重大變化這當然是有連動的\n\n32\n00:11:08,454 --> 00:11:37,072\n那如果發生嚴重疫情可以有比較具體的方式規範進來的話那是不是也能夠協助這些中立收入戶的這些民眾有比較好的短期的生活補助這當然會牽涉到各種法令的聯動不過我想很多委員也很期待那些東西可以同步來處理的話期待就是讓他有更周延的一些立法的過程好不好\n\n33\n00:11:37,489 --> 00:11:39,875\n好的謝謝委員指教這個很重要拜託謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5817\t8028\t好 謝謝主席我們有請部長來 請邱部長\n24676\t37624\t今天是在討論社會救助法成門這個召委排的這樣的主題引起了很多迴響我相信其實在台灣在民主民主制度的運作之下\n39045\t55158\t往這個福利國的方向持續邁進那對於不管是透過健保的協助整個制度的建立等等的事實上讓人民的生活可以至少有一定的這個保障能夠希望能夠朝著福利國的方向來前進\n56900\t71428\t早上聽您的報告也知道說有一些處理的進度其實我們在今年就有一個提案針對總預算的部分有一個提案就是後來變成一個主決議就是針對於社會\n73150\t92969\t這個有關的救助的業務上面期待說有更好的一些研議的過程就是今天我們所看到相關的內容那我們所收到的回覆裡面就是表示說目前透過各界持續來研議民間倡議團體跟社會各界對這樣的這個有關於\n95591\t110096\t社會救助法的一些修法的意見那到目前為止是有很多委員的版本的一些想法跟具體的要求那這部分請問目前衛護部有沒有相關的研議進度好\n111716\t132533\t所以我們本部將在經濟安全、脫貧、自利跟社會投資的核心思維下來持續研議兼顧減性便民、公平客觀、擴大照顧弱勢然後財政可負擔性提出務實一直在研議務實可行的修法內容\n134014\t159275\t因為我們知道說今年都一直延會到8月底嘛那召委也許很希望能夠針對這個進度呢能夠把相關的社會救助法也希望10年沒有調整嘛希望說有進步所以這邊可能不管是願版或不版的一些內容也期待能夠盡快的讓\n160075\t171727\t社會了解在討論的時候可以更聚焦一些再來就是家戶所得平均分配制度大多數委員會講過\n173464\t191469\t因為依照第四條是有規範的是所謂低收入戶的一些基本的費用第四之一是針對中低收入戶不過它的概算就是剛才都講得很清楚家庭總收入平均分配全家的人口\n192169\t218654\t就是分子分母是有很完整的這個定義那不過那個定義就比喻和民法還有關係包括說你家裡是二十人住在一起家庭都是大家庭嘛你有血緣關係住在一起大家互相的協助有收入大家跪在一起那有這些需要使用的時候就全家來分攤這是非常清楚的不過我們也知道這個社會改變太快了\n221415\t240302\t整個社會結構 人口的改變好像有血親或同一個父親也不一定會住在一起現在社務因為血親的關係把它放在一起可是它又不見得能夠有好的一個互相生活的這種協助條件其實沒有什麼條件剛才處長說的539條款\n246066\t261624\t再來,這剛好什麼比較好的辦法,大家在思考的時候,目前部裡有沒有這些方面希望能夠前進的方向?好,謝謝委員,是不是可以,你自己來報告?非常感謝王正修委員對本案的關心\n263466\t285422\t這個確實就像陳陸委員剛剛所說的我們這裡面就是第五條第五條的這一個第一項裡面確實就是規範這個裡面屬於所謂同居共財者的那個計算方式但是也有一些事實上我們那個第三另外我們有一些除外的規定譬如說以前說你女兒女兒你女兒你會嫁出去這個我們確實在這裡面我們也有做相關的一個排除\n291607\t315935\t最重要的一個就是說因為老實說申請社會救助這個情況老實說我應該很多我們這裡面我們有另外一個就是剛剛跟委員報告的就是我們有第五條第三項第九款這裡面我們就會授權這裡面的承辦的這個社工他在做完評估之後如果有特殊的情況的話事實上是可以有一些排除或免的一個情況\n317195\t331063\t是 還是需要地方政府處理嘛對 沒錯我們現在有想到地方政府包括這些辛苦的社工去處理這些問題的時候有沒有回報到中央說遇到什麼比較具體的困難要怎麼改革\n331923\t343454\t有 報告委員 因為我跟委員報告就是以前我在台中做過社會局長嘛這個裡面我們會透過幾個機制第一個就是說社工他們自己本身都會有一些自己的評估 訪視評估然後其實有這個情況都要專案簽給局長\n347678\t373576\t他來做一個最後的一個確認那我們其實我們平常也我們大概部長的一個主持之下我們固定也都有那個社會證還有社證的一個聯繫匯報那像這些聯繫匯報我們也會把這些相關的一個一些樣態拿出來做一些討論就是說有一些真的是雖然特例可是特例多了我們以後可能會來作為修法來作為未來我們現在目前修法\n376758\t386627\t的一個根據所以實務上是可以解決是可以解決比較都會區的跟比較非都會區的都留問題有一樣嗎改革問題的方式會不會有一個多元的機制來解決這個困境\n394493\t415255\t這個確實沒錯因為確實像在特別在像城市的話對不對像杜魏區有一些就是說他土地持份就土地持份的那個問題還有另外一個就是說剛剛所說的所謂劣跡人口的那部分可能也會有一些確實也會有一些城鄉之間的差異是請問你們大家都是都很多土地\n415796\t423178\t一直噴一直噴 到底算不算低收 那就很麻煩所以希望將來你檢討這個問題的時候 把這些細節也能夠考量進去我們現在目前公佈的新法裡面 這些樣態都有來做一些相關的考量\n435918\t459130\t好 好 再來就是剛才剛才也說的這個虛擬收入啦虛擬收入我們也知道它是一個好像是收入不過這個收入是被分配到的根據五之一碰到的有工作能力還有沒有就業的人他基本上就會說你就是有這一筆的收入這部分就要調整了要調整來奉獻\n463993\t489426\t因為看起來怪怪的怪怪的就是什麼人有工作能力的認定你一天要告訴他就是因為你有工作能力你不去做工作你也要自己收入算你錢其實他可能也不去做工作他也沒有這個收入不過帳面上就是有這個收入當然我們不希望說因為他為了要領這個費用所以就用選擇那種本來有工作能力\n490066\t504448\t不替社會做事情不替家庭做事情這個也要當然要去處理不過這百分之百可能再麻煩看有什麼更好的方式一般的考量非常周全我們從各個角度對待考量來調整而且很精準的\n505549\t524847\t來調整再來就是因為我通常看癌症病人的時候有一些低收或者是中低收的患者他們就覺得很辛苦尤其是在積極治療癌症的這段時間常常要奔波在醫院跟家庭社區之間\n525547\t548658\t所以說衍生的費用相對還是會比平常會更多我們現在看到第十二條就是針對於低收的這些成員什麼問題的時候可以有百分之四十以內的這些增加的補助當然這個感情的範疇這也是我們關心的包括其他相對的重症的部分大家會擔心說你現在為了要捏這個錢\n551639\t571045\t所以我就特別去延長我這個重症期間的這個期限當然這個就是一種反淘汰就是一個不好的行為不過 其實如果你積極治療階段這就是有一些方法我們要來把這個真的有數的過程可以讓他有比較好的\n572186\t594241\t這個補助,這個補助就是適當時間嘛這個當然在處理主管機關就會比較辛苦一點啦這裏不知道有什麼比較好的方式可以研議看看嗎這莊委也很關心我想那個中大會拿中大生命塔的確都需要我們來照顧那在健保署或者是在醫界方面也會來檢討在什麼時候\n597864\t613102\t就是說一段時間一段時間的問題嘛這中間在中大傷病的治療或在這個持卡的期間啦那我想應該給他們更多的照顧跟補助\n616854\t643105\t因為剛剛委員其實有講他還是有點道德風險所以我們需要進一步的演繹是啊 這看我們有什麼比較好的方式回到這個積極治療期啦這個時間可能是比較需要大家幫忙嘛他如果把這個病底的好事當然對社會來講就比較有幫忙的好 最大的部分就是這個我們要經過一個靠北的疫情\n644345\t666413\t那段時間都特別預算什麼問題來介紹一些生活的輔助尤其是對中低收戶的民眾如果遇到疫情的時候現在十六之三是發生國內經濟情形發生重大變化當然疫情會不會就造成國內經濟的情形發生重大變化這當然是有連動的\n668454\t697072\t那如果發生嚴重疫情可以有比較具體的方式規範進來的話那是不是也能夠協助這些中立收入戶的這些民眾有比較好的短期的生活補助這當然會牽涉到各種法令的聯動不過我想很多委員也很期待那些東西可以同步來處理的話期待就是讓他有更周延的一些立法的過程好不好\n697489\t699875\t好的 謝謝委員指教這個很重要 拜託謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席我們有請部長來 請邱部長\n今天是在討論社會救助法成門這個召委排的這樣的主題引起了很多迴響我相信其實在台灣在民主民主制度的運作之下\n往這個福利國的方向持續邁進那對於不管是透過健保的協助整個制度的建立等等的事實上讓人民的生活可以至少有一定的這個保障能夠希望能夠朝著福利國的方向來前進\n早上聽您的報告也知道說有一些處理的進度其實我們在今年就有一個提案針對總預算的部分有一個提案就是後來變成一個主決議就是針對於社會\n這個有關的救助的業務上面期待說有更好的一些研議的過程就是今天我們所看到相關的內容那我們所收到的回覆裡面就是表示說目前透過各界持續來研議民間倡議團體跟社會各界對這樣的這個有關於\n社會救助法的一些修法的意見那到目前為止是有很多委員的版本的一些想法跟具體的要求那這部分請問目前衛護部有沒有相關的研議進度好\n所以我們本部將在經濟安全、脫貧、自利跟社會投資的核心思維下來持續研議兼顧減性便民、公平客觀、擴大照顧弱勢然後財政可負擔性提出務實一直在研議務實可行的修法內容\n因為我們知道說今年都一直延會到8月底嘛那召委也許很希望能夠針對這個進度呢能夠把相關的社會救助法也希望10年沒有調整嘛希望說有進步所以這邊可能不管是願版或不版的一些內容也期待能夠盡快的讓\n社會了解在討論的時候可以更聚焦一些再來就是家戶所得平均分配制度大多數委員會講過\n因為依照第四條是有規範的是所謂低收入戶的一些基本的費用第四之一是針對中低收入戶不過它的概算就是剛才都講得很清楚家庭總收入平均分配全家的人口\n就是分子分母是有很完整的這個定義那不過那個定義就比喻和民法還有關係包括說你家裡是二十人住在一起家庭都是大家庭嘛你有血緣關係住在一起大家互相的協助有收入大家跪在一起那有這些需要使用的時候就全家來分攤這是非常清楚的不過我們也知道這個社會改變太快了\n整個社會結構 人口的改變好像有血親或同一個父親也不一定會住在一起現在社務因為血親的關係把它放在一起可是它又不見得能夠有好的一個互相生活的這種協助條件其實沒有什麼條件剛才處長說的539條款\n再來,這剛好什麼比較好的辦法,大家在思考的時候,目前部裡有沒有這些方面希望能夠前進的方向?好,謝謝委員,是不是可以,你自己來報告?非常感謝王正修委員對本案的關心\n這個確實就像陳陸委員剛剛所說的我們這裡面就是第五條第五條的這一個第一項裡面確實就是規範這個裡面屬於所謂同居共財者的那個計算方式但是也有一些事實上我們那個第三另外我們有一些除外的規定譬如說以前說你女兒女兒你女兒你會嫁出去這個我們確實在這裡面我們也有做相關的一個排除\n最重要的一個就是說因為老實說申請社會救助這個情況老實說我應該很多我們這裡面我們有另外一個就是剛剛跟委員報告的就是我們有第五條第三項第九款這裡面我們就會授權這裡面的承辦的這個社工他在做完評估之後如果有特殊的情況的話事實上是可以有一些排除或免的一個情況\n是 還是需要地方政府處理嘛對 沒錯我們現在有想到地方政府包括這些辛苦的社工去處理這些問題的時候有沒有回報到中央說遇到什麼比較具體的困難要怎麼改革\n有 報告委員 因為我跟委員報告就是以前我在台中做過社會局長嘛這個裡面我們會透過幾個機制第一個就是說社工他們自己本身都會有一些自己的評估 訪視評估然後其實有這個情況都要專案簽給局長\n他來做一個最後的一個確認那我們其實我們平常也我們大概部長的一個主持之下我們固定也都有那個社會證還有社證的一個聯繫匯報那像這些聯繫匯報我們也會把這些相關的一個一些樣態拿出來做一些討論就是說有一些真的是雖然特例可是特例多了我們以後可能會來作為修法來作為未來我們現在目前修法\n的一個根據所以實務上是可以解決是可以解決比較都會區的跟比較非都會區的都留問題有一樣嗎改革問題的方式會不會有一個多元的機制來解決這個困境\n這個確實沒錯因為確實像在特別在像城市的話對不對像杜魏區有一些就是說他土地持份就土地持份的那個問題還有另外一個就是說剛剛所說的所謂劣跡人口的那部分可能也會有一些確實也會有一些城鄉之間的差異是請問你們大家都是都很多土地\n一直噴一直噴 到底算不算低收 那就很麻煩所以希望將來你檢討這個問題的時候 把這些細節也能夠考量進去我們現在目前公佈的新法裡面 這些樣態都有來做一些相關的考量\n好 好 再來就是剛才剛才也說的這個虛擬收入啦虛擬收入我們也知道它是一個好像是收入不過這個收入是被分配到的根據五之一碰到的有工作能力還有沒有就業的人他基本上就會說你就是有這一筆的收入這部分就要調整了要調整來奉獻\n因為看起來怪怪的怪怪的就是什麼人有工作能力的認定你一天要告訴他就是因為你有工作能力你不去做工作你也要自己收入算你錢其實他可能也不去做工作他也沒有這個收入不過帳面上就是有這個收入當然我們不希望說因為他為了要領這個費用所以就用選擇那種本來有工作能力\n不替社會做事情不替家庭做事情這個也要當然要去處理不過這百分之百可能再麻煩看有什麼更好的方式一般的考量非常周全我們從各個角度對待考量來調整而且很精準的\n來調整再來就是因為我通常看癌症病人的時候有一些低收或者是中低收的患者他們就覺得很辛苦尤其是在積極治療癌症的這段時間常常要奔波在醫院跟家庭社區之間\n所以說衍生的費用相對還是會比平常會更多我們現在看到第十二條就是針對於低收的這些成員什麼問題的時候可以有百分之四十以內的這些增加的補助當然這個感情的範疇這也是我們關心的包括其他相對的重症的部分大家會擔心說你現在為了要捏這個錢\n所以我就特別去延長我這個重症期間的這個期限當然這個就是一種反淘汰就是一個不好的行為不過 其實如果你積極治療階段這就是有一些方法我們要來把這個真的有數的過程可以讓他有比較好的\n這個補助,這個補助就是適當時間嘛這個當然在處理主管機關就會比較辛苦一點啦這裏不知道有什麼比較好的方式可以研議看看嗎這莊委也很關心我想那個中大會拿中大生命塔的確都需要我們來照顧那在健保署或者是在醫界方面也會來檢討在什麼時候\n就是說一段時間一段時間的問題嘛這中間在中大傷病的治療或在這個持卡的期間啦那我想應該給他們更多的照顧跟補助\n因為剛剛委員其實有講他還是有點道德風險所以我們需要進一步的演繹是啊 這看我們有什麼比較好的方式回到這個積極治療期啦這個時間可能是比較需要大家幫忙嘛他如果把這個病底的好事當然對社會來講就比較有幫忙的好 最大的部分就是這個我們要經過一個靠北的疫情\n那段時間都特別預算什麼問題來介紹一些生活的輔助尤其是對中低收戶的民眾如果遇到疫情的時候現在十六之三是發生國內經濟情形發生重大變化當然疫情會不會就造成國內經濟的情形發生重大變化這當然是有連動的\n那如果發生嚴重疫情可以有比較具體的方式規範進來的話那是不是也能夠協助這些中立收入戶的這些民眾有比較好的短期的生活補助這當然會牽涉到各種法令的聯動不過我想很多委員也很期待那些東西可以同步來處理的話期待就是讓他有更周延的一些立法的過程好不好\n好的 謝謝委員指教這個很重要 拜託謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.817 --> 00:08.028\n好謝謝主席我們有請部長來請邱部長\n\n00:24.676 --> 00:37.624\n今天是在討論社會救助法成門這個召委排的這樣的主題引起了很多迴響我相信其實在台灣在民主民主制度的運作之下\n\n00:39.045 --> 00:55.158\n往這個福利國的方向持續邁進那對於不管是透過健保的協助整個制度的建立等等的事實上讓人民的生活可以至少有一定的這個保障能夠希望能夠朝著福利國的方向來前進\n\n00:56.900 --> 01:11.428\n早上聽您的報告也知道說有一些處理的進度其實我們在今年就有一個提案針對總預算的部分有一個提案就是後來變成一個主決議就是針對於社會\n\n01:13.150 --> 01:32.969\n這個有關的救助的業務上面期待說有更好的一些研議的過程就是今天我們所看到相關的內容那我們所收到的回覆裡面就是表示說目前透過各界持續來研議民間倡議團體跟社會各界對這樣的這個有關於\n\n01:35.591 --> 01:50.096\n社會救助法的一些修法的意見那到目前為止是有很多委員的版本的一些想法跟具體的要求那這部分請問目前衛護部有沒有相關的研議進度好\n\n01:51.716 --> 02:12.533\n所以我們本部將在經濟安全、脫貧、自利跟社會投資的核心思維下來持續研議兼顧減性便民、公平客觀、擴大照顧弱勢然後財政可負擔性提出務實一直在研議務實可行的修法內容\n\n02:14.014 --> 02:39.275\n因為我們知道說今年都一直延會到8月底嘛那召委也許很希望能夠針對這個進度呢能夠把相關的社會救助法也希望10年沒有調整嘛希望說有進步所以這邊可能不管是願版或不版的一些內容也期待能夠盡快的讓\n\n02:40.075 --> 02:51.727\n社會了解在討論的時候可以更聚焦一些再來就是家戶所得平均分配制度大多數委員會講過\n\n02:53.464 --> 03:11.469\n因為依照第四條是有規範的是所謂低收入戶的一些基本的費用第四之一是針對中低收入戶不過它的概算就是剛才都講得很清楚家庭總收入平均分配全家的人口\n\n03:12.169 --> 03:38.654\n就是分子分母是有很完整的這個定義那不過那個定義就比喻和民法還有關係包括說你家裡是二十人住在一起家庭都是大家庭嘛你有血緣關係住在一起大家互相的協助有收入大家跪在一起那有這些需要使用的時候就全家來分攤這是非常清楚的不過我們也知道這個社會改變太快了\n\n03:41.415 --> 04:00.302\n整個社會結構人口的改變好像有血親或同一個父親也不一定會住在一起現在社務因為血親的關係把它放在一起可是它又不見得能夠有好的一個互相生活的這種協助條件其實沒有什麼條件剛才處長說的539條款\n\n04:06.066 --> 04:21.624\n再來,這剛好什麼比較好的辦法,大家在思考的時候,目前部裡有沒有這些方面希望能夠前進的方向?好,謝謝委員,是不是可以,你自己來報告?非常感謝王正修委員對本案的關心\n\n04:23.466 --> 04:45.422\n這個確實就像陳陸委員剛剛所說的我們這裡面就是第五條第五條的這一個第一項裡面確實就是規範這個裡面屬於所謂同居共財者的那個計算方式但是也有一些事實上我們那個第三另外我們有一些除外的規定譬如說以前說你女兒女兒你女兒你會嫁出去這個我們確實在這裡面我們也有做相關的一個排除\n\n04:51.607 --> 05:15.935\n最重要的一個就是說因為老實說申請社會救助這個情況老實說我應該很多我們這裡面我們有另外一個就是剛剛跟委員報告的就是我們有第五條第三項第九款這裡面我們就會授權這裡面的承辦的這個社工他在做完評估之後如果有特殊的情況的話事實上是可以有一些排除或免的一個情況\n\n05:17.195 --> 05:31.063\n是還是需要地方政府處理嘛對沒錯我們現在有想到地方政府包括這些辛苦的社工去處理這些問題的時候有沒有回報到中央說遇到什麼比較具體的困難要怎麼改革\n\n05:31.923 --> 05:43.454\n有報告委員因為我跟委員報告就是以前我在台中做過社會局長嘛這個裡面我們會透過幾個機制第一個就是說社工他們自己本身都會有一些自己的評估訪視評估然後其實有這個情況都要專案簽給局長\n\n05:47.678 --> 06:13.576\n他來做一個最後的一個確認那我們其實我們平常也我們大概部長的一個主持之下我們固定也都有那個社會證還有社證的一個聯繫匯報那像這些聯繫匯報我們也會把這些相關的一個一些樣態拿出來做一些討論就是說有一些真的是雖然特例可是特例多了我們以後可能會來作為修法來作為未來我們現在目前修法\n\n06:16.758 --> 06:26.627\n的一個根據所以實務上是可以解決是可以解決比較都會區的跟比較非都會區的都留問題有一樣嗎改革問題的方式會不會有一個多元的機制來解決這個困境\n\n06:34.493 --> 06:55.255\n這個確實沒錯因為確實像在特別在像城市的話對不對像杜魏區有一些就是說他土地持份就土地持份的那個問題還有另外一個就是說剛剛所說的所謂劣跡人口的那部分可能也會有一些確實也會有一些城鄉之間的差異是請問你們大家都是都很多土地\n\n06:55.796 --> 07:03.178\n一直噴一直噴到底算不算低收那就很麻煩所以希望將來你檢討這個問題的時候把這些細節也能夠考量進去我們現在目前公佈的新法裡面這些樣態都有來做一些相關的考量\n\n07:15.918 --> 07:39.130\n好好再來就是剛才剛才也說的這個虛擬收入啦虛擬收入我們也知道它是一個好像是收入不過這個收入是被分配到的根據五之一碰到的有工作能力還有沒有就業的人他基本上就會說你就是有這一筆的收入這部分就要調整了要調整來奉獻\n\n07:43.993 --> 08:09.426\n因為看起來怪怪的怪怪的就是什麼人有工作能力的認定你一天要告訴他就是因為你有工作能力你不去做工作你也要自己收入算你錢其實他可能也不去做工作他也沒有這個收入不過帳面上就是有這個收入當然我們不希望說因為他為了要領這個費用所以就用選擇那種本來有工作能力\n\n08:10.066 --> 08:24.448\n不替社會做事情不替家庭做事情這個也要當然要去處理不過這百分之百可能再麻煩看有什麼更好的方式一般的考量非常周全我們從各個角度對待考量來調整而且很精準的\n\n08:25.549 --> 08:44.847\n來調整再來就是因為我通常看癌症病人的時候有一些低收或者是中低收的患者他們就覺得很辛苦尤其是在積極治療癌症的這段時間常常要奔波在醫院跟家庭社區之間\n\n08:45.547 --> 09:08.658\n所以說衍生的費用相對還是會比平常會更多我們現在看到第十二條就是針對於低收的這些成員什麼問題的時候可以有百分之四十以內的這些增加的補助當然這個感情的範疇這也是我們關心的包括其他相對的重症的部分大家會擔心說你現在為了要捏這個錢\n\n09:11.639 --> 09:31.045\n所以我就特別去延長我這個重症期間的這個期限當然這個就是一種反淘汰就是一個不好的行為不過其實如果你積極治療階段這就是有一些方法我們要來把這個真的有數的過程可以讓他有比較好的\n\n09:32.186 --> 09:54.241\n這個補助,這個補助就是適當時間嘛這個當然在處理主管機關就會比較辛苦一點啦這裏不知道有什麼比較好的方式可以研議看看嗎這莊委也很關心我想那個中大會拿中大生命塔的確都需要我們來照顧那在健保署或者是在醫界方面也會來檢討在什麼時候\n\n09:57.864 --> 10:13.102\n就是說一段時間一段時間的問題嘛這中間在中大傷病的治療或在這個持卡的期間啦那我想應該給他們更多的照顧跟補助\n\n10:16.854 --> 10:43.105\n因為剛剛委員其實有講他還是有點道德風險所以我們需要進一步的演繹是啊這看我們有什麼比較好的方式回到這個積極治療期啦這個時間可能是比較需要大家幫忙嘛他如果把這個病底的好事當然對社會來講就比較有幫忙的好最大的部分就是這個我們要經過一個靠北的疫情\n\n10:44.345 --> 11:06.413\n那段時間都特別預算什麼問題來介紹一些生活的輔助尤其是對中低收戶的民眾如果遇到疫情的時候現在十六之三是發生國內經濟情形發生重大變化當然疫情會不會就造成國內經濟的情形發生重大變化這當然是有連動的\n\n11:08.454 --> 11:37.072\n那如果發生嚴重疫情可以有比較具體的方式規範進來的話那是不是也能夠協助這些中立收入戶的這些民眾有比較好的短期的生活補助這當然會牽涉到各種法令的聯動不過我想很多委員也很期待那些東西可以同步來處理的話期待就是讓他有更周延的一些立法的過程好不好\n\n11:37.489 --> 11:39.875\n好的謝謝委員指教這個很重要拜託謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.817,"end":8.028,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們有請部長來 請邱部長"},{"start":24.676,"end":37.624,"text":"今天是在討論社會救助法成門這個召委排的這樣的主題引起了很多迴響我相信其實在台灣在民主民主制度的運作之下"},{"start":39.045,"end":55.158,"text":"往這個福利國的方向持續邁進那對於不管是透過健保的協助整個制度的建立等等的事實上讓人民的生活可以至少有一定的這個保障能夠希望能夠朝著福利國的方向來前進"},{"start":56.9,"end":71.428,"text":"早上聽您的報告也知道說有一些處理的進度其實我們在今年就有一個提案針對總預算的部分有一個提案就是後來變成一個主決議就是針對於社會"},{"start":73.15,"end":92.969,"text":"這個有關的救助的業務上面期待說有更好的一些研議的過程就是今天我們所看到相關的內容那我們所收到的回覆裡面就是表示說目前透過各界持續來研議民間倡議團體跟社會各界對這樣的這個有關於"},{"start":95.591,"end":110.096,"text":"社會救助法的一些修法的意見那到目前為止是有很多委員的版本的一些想法跟具體的要求那這部分請問目前衛護部有沒有相關的研議進度好"},{"start":111.716,"end":132.533,"text":"所以我們本部將在經濟安全、脫貧、自利跟社會投資的核心思維下來持續研議兼顧減性便民、公平客觀、擴大照顧弱勢然後財政可負擔性提出務實一直在研議務實可行的修法內容"},{"start":134.014,"end":159.275,"text":"因為我們知道說今年都一直延會到8月底嘛那召委也許很希望能夠針對這個進度呢能夠把相關的社會救助法也希望10年沒有調整嘛希望說有進步所以這邊可能不管是願版或不版的一些內容也期待能夠盡快的讓"},{"start":160.075,"end":171.727,"text":"社會了解在討論的時候可以更聚焦一些再來就是家戶所得平均分配制度大多數委員會講過"},{"start":173.464,"end":191.469,"text":"因為依照第四條是有規範的是所謂低收入戶的一些基本的費用第四之一是針對中低收入戶不過它的概算就是剛才都講得很清楚家庭總收入平均分配全家的人口"},{"start":192.169,"end":218.654,"text":"就是分子分母是有很完整的這個定義那不過那個定義就比喻和民法還有關係包括說你家裡是二十人住在一起家庭都是大家庭嘛你有血緣關係住在一起大家互相的協助有收入大家跪在一起那有這些需要使用的時候就全家來分攤這是非常清楚的不過我們也知道這個社會改變太快了"},{"start":221.415,"end":240.302,"text":"整個社會結構 人口的改變好像有血親或同一個父親也不一定會住在一起現在社務因為血親的關係把它放在一起可是它又不見得能夠有好的一個互相生活的這種協助條件其實沒有什麼條件剛才處長說的539條款"},{"start":246.066,"end":261.624,"text":"再來,這剛好什麼比較好的辦法,大家在思考的時候,目前部裡有沒有這些方面希望能夠前進的方向?好,謝謝委員,是不是可以,你自己來報告?非常感謝王正修委員對本案的關心"},{"start":263.466,"end":285.422,"text":"這個確實就像陳陸委員剛剛所說的我們這裡面就是第五條第五條的這一個第一項裡面確實就是規範這個裡面屬於所謂同居共財者的那個計算方式但是也有一些事實上我們那個第三另外我們有一些除外的規定譬如說以前說你女兒女兒你女兒你會嫁出去這個我們確實在這裡面我們也有做相關的一個排除"},{"start":291.607,"end":315.935,"text":"最重要的一個就是說因為老實說申請社會救助這個情況老實說我應該很多我們這裡面我們有另外一個就是剛剛跟委員報告的就是我們有第五條第三項第九款這裡面我們就會授權這裡面的承辦的這個社工他在做完評估之後如果有特殊的情況的話事實上是可以有一些排除或免的一個情況"},{"start":317.195,"end":331.063,"text":"是 還是需要地方政府處理嘛對 沒錯我們現在有想到地方政府包括這些辛苦的社工去處理這些問題的時候有沒有回報到中央說遇到什麼比較具體的困難要怎麼改革"},{"start":331.923,"end":343.454,"text":"有 報告委員 因為我跟委員報告就是以前我在台中做過社會局長嘛這個裡面我們會透過幾個機制第一個就是說社工他們自己本身都會有一些自己的評估 訪視評估然後其實有這個情況都要專案簽給局長"},{"start":347.678,"end":373.576,"text":"他來做一個最後的一個確認那我們其實我們平常也我們大概部長的一個主持之下我們固定也都有那個社會證還有社證的一個聯繫匯報那像這些聯繫匯報我們也會把這些相關的一個一些樣態拿出來做一些討論就是說有一些真的是雖然特例可是特例多了我們以後可能會來作為修法來作為未來我們現在目前修法"},{"start":376.758,"end":386.627,"text":"的一個根據所以實務上是可以解決是可以解決比較都會區的跟比較非都會區的都留問題有一樣嗎改革問題的方式會不會有一個多元的機制來解決這個困境"},{"start":394.493,"end":415.255,"text":"這個確實沒錯因為確實像在特別在像城市的話對不對像杜魏區有一些就是說他土地持份就土地持份的那個問題還有另外一個就是說剛剛所說的所謂劣跡人口的那部分可能也會有一些確實也會有一些城鄉之間的差異是請問你們大家都是都很多土地"},{"start":415.796,"end":423.178,"text":"一直噴一直噴 到底算不算低收 那就很麻煩所以希望將來你檢討這個問題的時候 把這些細節也能夠考量進去我們現在目前公佈的新法裡面 這些樣態都有來做一些相關的考量"},{"start":435.918,"end":459.13,"text":"好 好 再來就是剛才剛才也說的這個虛擬收入啦虛擬收入我們也知道它是一個好像是收入不過這個收入是被分配到的根據五之一碰到的有工作能力還有沒有就業的人他基本上就會說你就是有這一筆的收入這部分就要調整了要調整來奉獻"},{"start":463.993,"end":489.426,"text":"因為看起來怪怪的怪怪的就是什麼人有工作能力的認定你一天要告訴他就是因為你有工作能力你不去做工作你也要自己收入算你錢其實他可能也不去做工作他也沒有這個收入不過帳面上就是有這個收入當然我們不希望說因為他為了要領這個費用所以就用選擇那種本來有工作能力"},{"start":490.066,"end":504.448,"text":"不替社會做事情不替家庭做事情這個也要當然要去處理不過這百分之百可能再麻煩看有什麼更好的方式一般的考量非常周全我們從各個角度對待考量來調整而且很精準的"},{"start":505.549,"end":524.847,"text":"來調整再來就是因為我通常看癌症病人的時候有一些低收或者是中低收的患者他們就覺得很辛苦尤其是在積極治療癌症的這段時間常常要奔波在醫院跟家庭社區之間"},{"start":525.547,"end":548.658,"text":"所以說衍生的費用相對還是會比平常會更多我們現在看到第十二條就是針對於低收的這些成員什麼問題的時候可以有百分之四十以內的這些增加的補助當然這個感情的範疇這也是我們關心的包括其他相對的重症的部分大家會擔心說你現在為了要捏這個錢"},{"start":551.639,"end":571.045,"text":"所以我就特別去延長我這個重症期間的這個期限當然這個就是一種反淘汰就是一個不好的行為不過 其實如果你積極治療階段這就是有一些方法我們要來把這個真的有數的過程可以讓他有比較好的"},{"start":572.186,"end":594.241,"text":"這個補助,這個補助就是適當時間嘛這個當然在處理主管機關就會比較辛苦一點啦這裏不知道有什麼比較好的方式可以研議看看嗎這莊委也很關心我想那個中大會拿中大生命塔的確都需要我們來照顧那在健保署或者是在醫界方面也會來檢討在什麼時候"},{"start":597.864,"end":613.102,"text":"就是說一段時間一段時間的問題嘛這中間在中大傷病的治療或在這個持卡的期間啦那我想應該給他們更多的照顧跟補助"},{"start":616.854,"end":643.105,"text":"因為剛剛委員其實有講他還是有點道德風險所以我們需要進一步的演繹是啊 這看我們有什麼比較好的方式回到這個積極治療期啦這個時間可能是比較需要大家幫忙嘛他如果把這個病底的好事當然對社會來講就比較有幫忙的好 最大的部分就是這個我們要經過一個靠北的疫情"},{"start":644.345,"end":666.413,"text":"那段時間都特別預算什麼問題來介紹一些生活的輔助尤其是對中低收戶的民眾如果遇到疫情的時候現在十六之三是發生國內經濟情形發生重大變化當然疫情會不會就造成國內經濟的情形發生重大變化這當然是有連動的"},{"start":668.454,"end":697.072,"text":"那如果發生嚴重疫情可以有比較具體的方式規範進來的話那是不是也能夠協助這些中立收入戶的這些民眾有比較好的短期的生活補助這當然會牽涉到各種法令的聯動不過我想很多委員也很期待那些東西可以同步來處理的話期待就是讓他有更周延的一些立法的過程好不好"},{"start":697.489,"end":699.875,"text":"好的 謝謝委員指教這個很重要 拜託謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1083,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時35分）好，謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長辛苦，你有沒有喝口水？喝一下水會比較舒服，喉嚨會好一點。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：今天是在討論社會救助法，承蒙召委排的主題，引起了很多迴響。我相信其實在臺灣民主制度的運作之下，是往福利國的方向持續邁進，對於不管是透過健保的協助，整個制度的建立等等，事實上讓人民的生活可以至少有一定的保障，也希望能夠朝著福利國的方向前進。早上聽您的報告，也知道有一些處理的進度，其實我們在今年針對總預算的部分有一個提案，後來變成一個主決議，就是有關社會救助的業務上面期待有更好的一些研議的過程，也就是今天我們所看到相關的內容，我們所收到的回復裡面表示，目前透過各界持續來研議民間倡議團體跟社會各界有關於社會救助法的一些意見。到目前為止有很多委員的版本的一些想法跟具體的要求，這部分請問目前衛福部有沒有相關的研議進度？"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的，本部將在經濟安全、脫貧自立跟社會投資的核心思維下，持續研議兼顧簡政便民、公平客觀、擴大照顧弱勢、兼顧財政可負擔性，一直在研議提出務實可行的修法內容。"],["王委員正旭：因為我們知道今年一直延會到8月底，相關的社會救助法也十年沒有調整，召委希望有進度，所以可能不管是院版或部版的一些內容，也期待能夠儘快地讓社會了解，未來在討論的時候可以更聚焦一些。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["王委員正旭：這是麻煩部長的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：再來就是家戶所得平均分配制度，剛才很多委員有說過，因為依照第四條有規範的是所謂低收入戶的一些基本費用，第四條之一是針對中低收入戶，不過它的計算剛剛都說得很清楚，家庭總收入平均分配全家人口，所以分子、分母是有很完整的定義，不過定義就變成跟民法有關係，包括到底是多少人住在一起，以前都是大家庭，有血緣關係住在一起，大家互相的協助，有收入大家歸在一起，有需要使用的時候就全家來分攤，這是非常清楚的。不過我們也知道社會改變得太快，整個社會結構人口改變，好像有血親或同一個戶籍也不一定會住在一起。現在因為血親的關係，把他的收入放在一起，可是他又不見得能夠有好的、互相生活的協助條件，這部分要怎麼調整？剛剛次長有說到五三九條款，再來有什麼比較好的辦法？大家在思考的時候，這方面目前部裡有沒有希望能夠前進的方向？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，是不是可以讓呂次長報告？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝王正旭委員對本案的關心，這確實誠如委員剛剛所說的，我們第五條第一項裡面確實規範屬於所謂同居共財者的計算方式，但是也有一些……事實上，我們第三……另外，我們有一些除外的規定，譬如以前說女兒就嫁出去了等等，我們確實在這裡面，我們也有做相關的排除。最重要的就是，因為老實說申請社會救助的情況真的很多、有千百種情況，這裡面我們有另外一個就是剛剛跟委員報告的，我們有第五條第三項第九款，這裡面我們就會授權承辦的社工，他在做完評估之後，如果有特殊情況的話，事實上是可以有一些排除豁免的情況。"],["王委員正旭：是，需要地方政府處理？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["王委員正旭：我們現在有想到地方政府，包括這些辛苦的社工師去處理這些問題的時候，有沒有回報到中央說有遇到什麼具體的困難，要怎麼來解決？"],["呂次長建德：有，我跟委員報告，以前我在臺東當過社會局長，這裡面我們會透過幾個機制，第一個，社工他們自己本身都會有一些自己的訪視、評估，然後有這個情況都要專案簽給局長，他來做最後的確認。在部長的主持之下，我們固定也都有社衛政、還有社政的聯繫會報，像這些聯繫會報，我們也會把這些相關的一些樣態拿出來做討論，有一些雖然是特例，可是特例多了，可能會來作為我們目前修法的根據。"],["王委員正旭：所以實務上是可以解決？"],["呂次長建德：是，可以解決。"],["王委員正旭：比較都會區的跟比較非都會區遇到的問題有一樣嗎？你們解決問題的方式會不會有多元的機制來解決這個困境？"],["呂次長建德：確實沒錯，因為像在像城市、都會區有一些土地持分的問題，還有另外一個，剛剛所說的列計人口的部分，可能也會有一些城鄉之間的差異。"],["王委員正旭：是，像我們雲林縣大家都有很多土地，一直分、一直分，分到最後到底算不算……那就很麻煩。"],["呂次長建德：對，土地持分的問題。"],["王委員正旭：所以希望將來檢討這個問題的時候，也把這些細節能夠考量進去。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們目前在公布的新法裡面有這些樣態，都有來做一些相關的考量。"],["王委員正旭：好。再來，剛才突然也說到虛擬收入，我們也知道它好像是收入，不過這個收入是被分配到的，根據第五條之一，看起來有工作能力又沒有就業的人，基本上就會說你就是有這一筆的收入，這部分要怎麼調整，有什麼調整的方式？"],["邱部長泰源：好，這我們會來調整。"],["王委員正旭：因為看起來怪怪的，什麼人有工作能力的認定，你直接要跟他說，就是因為他有工作能力，但沒去工作，你也把這個收入算他的，其實他可能沒去工作，他也沒有這個收入，不過帳面上就是有這個收入。當然，我們不希望他為了要領這個費用，所以本來有工作能力但選擇不替社會做事情、不替家庭做事情，這也當然要去處理，這部分可能再麻煩看看有什麼比較好的方式。"],["邱部長泰源：委員的考量非常周全，我們從各個角度做考量、來調整，而且很精準的來調整。"],["王委員正旭：好。再來，因為我通常看癌症病人的時候，有一些低收或者是中低收的這些患者，他們就覺得很辛苦，尤其是在積極治療癌症的這段時間，因為常常要奔波在醫院跟家庭、社區之間，所以衍生的費用相對還是會比平常會更多一點，現在看到第十二條就是針對於低收的這些成員，有什麼問題時可以有40%以內這些增加的補助。當然，癌症的患者也是我們關心的，還有包括其他相對重症的部分，大家會擔心你現在為了要領這個錢，所以我就特別去延長重症期間的期限，當然，這個就是一種反淘汰，這是一個不好的行為，不過，他若是確實在積極治療階段，這就是有一些訣竅，我們要怎麼把真的有需要的過程可以讓他有比較好的補助，這個補助就是適當時間嘛，當然在處理起來主管機關就會比較辛苦一點，這部分不知道有什麼比較好的方式，可以研議看看嗎？這個部分召委也很關心。"],["邱部長泰源：我想會拿重大傷病卡的確都需要我們來照顧，在健保署或者是在醫界方面也會來檢討，在什麼時候……就是一段時間、一段時間的問題，這中間重大傷病的治療或在持卡的期間，我想應該給他們更多的照顧跟補助。健保署有沒有要補充？"],["龐副署長一鳴：因為剛剛委員其實有講了，這還是有點道德風險，所以我們需要進一步的研議。"],["王委員正旭：是啊，看看有什麼比較好的方式，讓他在積極治療期，這段時間可能是比較需要大家幫忙，他如果把這個病治好，當然對社會來說，就比較有幫忙。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：最後的部分，我們經過COVID的疫情，那段時間都用特別預算來解決一些生活的扶助，尤其是對中低收入的這些民眾，如果又遇到疫情的時候，現在第十六條之三是發生在國內經濟情形發生重大變化，當然有疫情會不會就造成國內經濟的情形發生重大變化，這當然是有連動，我們如果把發生嚴重疫情還有一些比較具體的方式規範進來的話，是不是也能夠協助中低收入戶的這些民眾，有比較好的短期生活補助，這當然是會牽涉到各種法令的連動，不過，我想很多委員也很期待這些東西可以同步來處理的話，期待讓它有更周延的一些立法的過程，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，謝謝委員指教，這個很重要。"],["王委員正旭：再麻煩您們，拜託，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝王委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、謝謝部長、謝謝次長。","接下來請鄭天財委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-19","speakers":["劉建國","范雲","林月琴","楊瓊瓔","陳昭姿","王育敏","陳菁徽","林淑芬","涂權吉","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張雅琳","盧縣一","黃秀芳","楊曜","林楚茵","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","陳瑩"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2025-07-07"],"gazette_id":"1146604","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146604_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員楊曜等17人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二、委員范雲等17人擬\n具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正\n草案」案；四、委員黃秀芳等20人擬具「社會救助法第二條、第四條及第十四條條文修正草案」\n案；五、委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；六、委員黃捷等16人\n擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；七、委員蔡其昌等 17 人擬具「社會救助法第四\n條、第四條之一及第五條條文修正草案」案；八、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n條文修正草案」案；九、委員王鴻薇等26人擬具「社會救助法第十五條及第十五條之一條文修正\n草案」案；十、委員邱若華等20人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、台灣民眾黨\n黨團擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；十三、委員楊瓊\n瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救\n助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案；十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文\n修正草案」案；十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；十七、委\n員馬文君等20 人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十八、委員葉元之等 21 人擬具\n「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n及第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、委員林楚茵\n等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救\n助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草\n案」案；二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案；二十六、\n委員吳沛憶等16 人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委員邱鎮軍等 24 人擬具\n「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條\n之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二\n條文修正草案」案；三十、委員馬文君等16 人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案\n【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1146604_00020"}}}