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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等20人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員葉元之等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三十、委員馬文君等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-07-07","start_time":"2025-07-07T12:07:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-07T12:18:30+08:00","duration":663,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"163015","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163015","tool":"pyannote","id":"163015-pyannote"},"job_id":"HQORcscUSFXRufPt","queued_at":"2025-07-07 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00:00:08,302\n謝謝主席我們有請部長部長好那我想今天我們是要來審查這個社會救助法那其實在2023年的時候已經整併了一個版本但是其實民間對它都還是有蠻多的期待但是因為這裡面其實是設定到了就是說在社會救助法第36條明訂了\n\n2\n00:00:30,479 --> 00:00:46,964\n各級政府中央直轄市縣市及相關的目的事業主管機關都應該各自編列預算來辦理救助業務那在這個中央政府依照地方制度法第69條規定要以定額涉算的方式來補助直轄市縣市政府的一些社會福利的相關政策\n\n3\n00:00:48,024 --> 00:01:11,249\n但是必須限定它的一些支出範圍跟用途那地方其實需要編列相對應的一些預算所以在今天這個社會救助法討論之前我想要先確認一件事情就是有關於才化法的部分因為新任的才化法對於我們現在既有的一些工作業務上面會不會我們跟縣市的討論是什麼所以我想要先就這一點來跟部長來做討論\n\n4\n00:01:14,452 --> 00:01:34,214\n就例如說我們這次修法最主要的變動其實是營業稅由原本給地方的40%現在其實是給了百分之百也就是說全部的營業稅都給了地方我想我的認知應該是正確的那第二個部分是所得稅的部分從10%上升到11%\n\n5\n00:01:35,575 --> 00:02:00,221\n也都给到了地方那土地增值税的部分呢也是全数回归不再由中央管那最后一个部分呢其实是原本给地方的一般性补助管绝对不能比上一年度来的少这样做其实过去是为了避免地方社福的预算直接被删减我想我的理解应该是没有错对吗\n\n6\n00:02:01,209 --> 00:02:26,909\n好那我们从组织总处的报告可以看到就是2025年其实地方就可以拿到3753亿的统筹税款所以其实中央的财源已经变少了地方大幅的增加那接下来就想要请教我们跟我们明年度的社福预算将会有不同的分配吗那目前依照于现在的财务法我们要自弹性支出里面三减28%\n\n7\n00:02:29,291 --> 00:02:42,289\n對嗎好那我想請教我們現在跟地方縣市政府各自的討論現在分配的比例我們已經討論好了嗎跟縣市政府針對財化法的影響\n\n8\n00:02:44,192 --> 00:03:11,801\n目前都還在寫上當中是不是要請那個好我們請市長回答社務的理事長非常感謝張委員的一個指教確實就像陳如委員剛剛所說財化法通過之後事實上那個整個地方那邊已經增加三千多億了那另外一個第二個重點我也必須要在這邊強調社會救助在全世界各國都屬於地方自治的事項台灣也不例外根據我們地方制度法第十九條第三項第二目是屬於縣市自治\n\n9\n00:03:12,441 --> 00:03:31,580\n這是事項這我必須要核心序明第三點剛剛委員剛剛所說的就是說這邊至於影響之後相關的一些整個這個比例我們現在目前還跟地方政府還在密切我想問一下我們先不到社會救助法我們先在社福預算救財化法的部分\n\n10\n00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:49,195\n因為其實過去會有一些補助那現在地方到底會不會去認呢我想這大概是最關注的部分總不能說有些縣市可能拿很多縣像直轄市台北市保證3%可是其他地方並沒有這樣子得到相對多甚至有些地方可能增加的幅度也非常非常的少\n\n11\n00:03:49,775 --> 00:04:07,863\n那到底這些社福會不會受到什麼樣子的影響我覺得這個我們其實是想要了解那地方到底為什麼喬布隆大家的爭議點在哪裡是不是可以請市長簡單說我可以簡單回應一下那個那個委員的那個槌尋兩個重點第一個就是說我們對於社會中央對地方的補助有兩個一個是一般您剛剛所說的一般補助款\n\n12\n00:04:08,583 --> 00:04:36,842\n另外第二是所謂的計劃型補助一般補助款的話其實根據就根據這個地方的人口這裡面會有一些一般的社算這是第一個我們現在目前這個部分可能也會有一些調整這是第一個另外第二個就是地方型地方型主要有兩個部分一個就是大家有點育兒津貼的部分另外第二個就是說我們現在目前的社會安全網那我跟委員必須要報告這個有關育兒津貼的部分這個是我們恐怕還是維持原案\n\n13\n00:04:37,862 --> 00:04:54,163\n就是說比例上面來說我們現在目前我們這個部分我們現在目前還在跟地方這邊還做一些相關的一些協調但是到目前為止這個育兒今天的部分我們現在暫時先不動但是有一些屬於計劃型剛剛說的社安網的部分的話那恐怕\n\n14\n00:04:54,864 --> 00:05:09,224\n恐怕必須要根據地方的這個財力可能要有一些分級我跟你們報告譬如說像這個像有一些那個像台北台北的這個稅收非常非常高那如果比例還是維持\n\n15\n00:05:11,046 --> 00:05:37,444\n還是要大部分都在中央的話這個老說是說不過去啦社安網雖然是屬於計畫型但是老說對於民眾的社會安全是非常非常重要的所以我也在這邊呼籲地方各地方的這一個首長應該要重視這個部分這聽起來就是說有些縣市我們針對於社安網也好或者是說因為今天不動嘛但是社安網的部分啊急難救助的部分目前聽起來是地方還沒有達到共識還沒有是沒錯\n\n16\n00:05:38,324 --> 00:06:01,855\n所以這就很有可能我想再請教一個問題就是說如果我們最後大家還是不願意來認那勢必就一定會有人不會被接到一定會有人會被犧牲或是因為他拿來這些錢地方拿來這些錢他沒有去做相對應的事情我想請教一個簡單的問題衛福部有沒有什麼工具可以來約束他們才能夠真正確保社安網的這些我們原本的設計概念可以被落實\n\n17\n00:06:03,717 --> 00:06:15,053\n文回報這裡面我們現在目前就是說有關於我們現在目前的政策工具主要就是社福考核就是社福考核那邊到時候如果說你應該要編而未編應該盡的責任而未盡\n\n18\n00:06:18,616 --> 00:06:46,136\n因處理而未處理那當然地方首長第一個要負政治責任另外第二個我們對不起那我們的這一個社福考核這邊我們可能就必須要降級降級的話你的補助款也跟著減少那這個就是但是這個聽起來好像約束力並沒有非常強對不對因為他們畢竟錢拿了更多嘛對吧是嗎因為我想這是民間大家都非常非常擔心的啦因為其實不管是在這個社福的領域也好或是在教育的領域也好大家都非常擔心的是說當地方把錢拿走了\n\n19\n00:06:46,676 --> 00:07:09,979\n好他現在錢比中央還要甚至還要來的更多的時候那中央沒有任何的工具可以約束他就會造成勢必有些人一定被漏接好所以我想這個可能還是要這是剛剛我也認同次長的呼籲啦我想這個才化法就是整個在一個沒有跟地方充分協調事權的部分造成的一個後果是沒錯那我想不應該有任何人被犧牲啦所以我也是支持\n\n20\n00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:31,047\n剛剛市長的呼籲那我也那個簡單回應一下就是說我們也在這邊呼籲那個首長可能真的那個錢真的要用在刀口上面不要就是說當然就是說我們都希望社福當然希望每個人都好可是每一個地方老實說一些最基本的特別是對兒少的這個補助這個真的是一毛錢都不能省還有像社會安全網你寧願\n\n21\n00:07:33,949 --> 00:07:56,111\n沒有啦我現在就是說應該錢就要用在刀口上面這也是地方首長應該盡的責任謝謝對謝謝因為我想這邊我也是再加強一下就是說因為其實地方現在的城鄉差距其實是非常非常大的那我們也有可能會造成說平者橫貧的一個風險這也是民間單位大家所擔心的一個狀態就是弱勢族群如果在地方沒有辦法充分運用\n\n22\n00:07:57,432 --> 00:08:19,860\n而且有效的去實質的去把這些財源應用到地方的社政的一些資源的時候呢我們的弱勢族群會擴救的機會就會降低好這個然後再來就是說我們過去可能會有一些由中央統籌的重大社會救助計畫如果沒有充分的補助地方又不願意補足資源的時候\n\n23\n00:08:20,740 --> 00:08:39,787\n我們還有一個很大的問題是人才跟後勤會出現短程那這有可能是我們社安碗其實下一步大家一直在討論我們的社工的一個比例是不是應該要來去做一些調整因為長期以來我們的社工的壓力都非常非常的大所以這個可能就是我也想要請教就是說最後一個簡單的問題就是說\n\n24\n00:08:43,296 --> 00:08:57,624\n我們這個部分呢如果我想我們討論的方向會怎麼討論因為到底是會大家都要維持一樣的標準嗎各縣市一樣的標準呢還是我們會因為不同的縣市的一個狀態會有不同的協助呢中央現在這邊的態度是什麼\n\n25\n00:09:00,844 --> 00:09:21,164\n首先我先回應那個委員第一個問題現在確實我們即使經過社安網第一期的這個擴充我們現在目前在國際比較來說我們每一位的社工比老實說還是偏低我們現在目前是1比1123但是相較於鄰近的這個香港如果沒有記錯好像是1比500\n\n26\n00:09:22,425 --> 00:09:42,620\n然後美國好像是1比800的樣子Anyway都是比這個事實上我們還有應該要還有擴充的空間那我們現在目前也跟委員報告我們現在目前三網第二期2.0我們現在目前也已經完成規劃也已經送給這個行政院來做那個相關的規劃希望能夠來這邊來補足相關的這個人力以上\n\n27\n00:09:43,380 --> 00:10:07,560\n我簡單確認一下就是說因為每個縣市的財政狀況不是這樣到時候中央的方向是說我可能會比較有錢的地方我會願意讓他自己多付一點比較窮的地方我們會多協助一點是這個樣子沒錯我們會往這個方向來沒錯我們就是那個平者平之不平者不平之就是這樣那個你敢扣你就是要多幫忙多支持一點嘛對不對會多支持一點但是能力強的對不起這個地方政府你們要自己要自己\n\n28\n00:10:08,140 --> 00:10:16,482\n要負起應該要有的這個責任好那最後一個簡單的問題就是說我們現在針對於新的才化法的一些影響性評估我們現在已經算出來了嗎\n\n29\n00:10:18,601 --> 00:10:37,135\n有算出來嗎?報告委員,我們現在目前,您說有關於社會福利這邊嗎?對對對我們現在目前都在跟主計那邊,它其實有算出一個版本,但是我們現在目前還在持續那大概什麼時候可以提供給我們辦公室呢?我們會趕快跟主計這邊,協調好之後趕快把結果跟委員報告,好不好?那我們可以押一個時間嗎?一個月?呃...\n\n30\n00:10:47,801 --> 00:10:51,883\n這個部分不知道委員我們可能要跟竹總我們會盡快地方政府那邊也很關心好不好那我們就一個月之後再來詢問一下進度好感謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6220\t8302\t謝謝主席 我們有請部長部長好那我想今天我們是要來審查這個社會救助法那其實在2023年的時候已經整併了一個版本但是其實民間對它都還是有蠻多的期待但是因為這裡面其實是設定到了就是說在社會救助法第36條明訂了\n30479\t46964\t各級政府中央直轄市縣市及相關的目的事業主管機關都應該各自編列預算來辦理救助業務那在這個中央政府依照地方制度法第69條規定要以定額涉算的方式來補助直轄市縣市政府的一些社會福利的相關政策\n48024\t71249\t但是必須限定它的一些支出範圍跟用途那地方其實需要編列相對應的一些預算所以在今天這個社會救助法討論之前我想要先確認一件事情就是有關於才化法的部分因為新任的才化法對於我們現在既有的一些工作業務上面會不會我們跟縣市的討論是什麼所以我想要先就這一點來跟部長來做討論\n74452\t94214\t就例如說我們這次修法最主要的變動其實是營業稅由原本給地方的40%現在其實是給了百分之百也就是說全部的營業稅都給了地方我想我的認知應該是正確的那第二個部分是所得稅的部分從10%上升到11%\n95575\t120221\t也都给到了地方那土地增值税的部分呢也是全数回归不再由中央管那最后一个部分呢其实是原本给地方的一般性补助管绝对不能比上一年度来的少这样做其实过去是为了避免地方社福的预算直接被删减我想我的理解应该是没有错对吗\n121209\t146909\t好那我们从组织总处的报告可以看到就是2025年其实地方就可以拿到3753亿的统筹税款所以其实中央的财源已经变少了地方大幅的增加那接下来就想要请教我们跟我们明年度的社福预算将会有不同的分配吗那目前依照于现在的财务法我们要自弹性支出里面三减28%\n149291\t162289\t對嗎好 那我想請教我們現在跟地方縣市政府各自的討論現在分配的比例我們已經討論好了嗎跟縣市政府針對財化法的影響\n164192\t191801\t目前都還在寫上當中是不是要請那個好 我們請市長回答社務的理事長非常感謝張委員的一個指教確實就像陳如委員剛剛所說財化法通過之後事實上那個整個地方那邊已經增加三千多億了那另外一個第二個重點我也必須要在這邊強調社會救助在全世界各國都屬於地方自治的事項台灣也不例外根據我們地方制度法第十九條第三項第二目是屬於縣市自治\n192441\t211580\t這是事項 這我必須要核心序明第三點 剛剛委員剛剛所說的就是說這邊 至於影響之後相關的一些整個這個比例我們現在目前還跟地方政府還在密切我想問一下 我們先不到社會救助法我們先在社福預算救財化法的部分\n212160\t229195\t因為其實過去會有一些補助那現在地方到底會不會去認呢我想這大概是最關注的部分總不能說有些縣市可能拿很多縣像直轄市台北市保證3%可是其他地方並沒有這樣子得到相對多甚至有些地方可能增加的幅度也非常非常的少\n229775\t247863\t那到底這些社福會不會受到什麼樣子的影響我覺得這個我們其實是想要了解那地方到底為什麼喬布隆大家的爭議點在哪裡是不是可以請市長簡單說我可以簡單回應一下那個那個委員的那個槌尋兩個重點第一個就是說我們對於社會中央對地方的補助有兩個一個是一般您剛剛所說的一般補助款\n248583\t276842\t另外第二是所謂的計劃型補助一般補助款的話其實根據就根據這個地方的人口這裡面會有一些一般的社算這是第一個我們現在目前這個部分可能也會有一些調整這是第一個另外第二個就是地方型地方型主要有兩個部分一個就是大家有點育兒津貼的部分另外第二個就是說我們現在目前的社會安全網那我跟委員必須要報告這個有關育兒津貼的部分這個是我們恐怕還是維持原案\n277862\t294163\t就是說比例上面來說我們現在目前我們這個部分我們現在目前還在跟地方這邊還做一些相關的一些協調但是到目前為止這個育兒今天的部分我們現在暫時先不動但是有一些屬於計劃型剛剛說的社安網的部分的話那恐怕\n294864\t309224\t恐怕必須要根據地方的這個財力可能要有一些分級我跟你們報告譬如說像這個像有一些那個像台北台北的這個稅收非常非常高那如果比例還是維持\n311046\t337444\t還是要大部分都在中央的話這個老說是說不過去啦社安網雖然是屬於計畫型但是老說對於民眾的社會安全是非常非常重要的所以我也在這邊呼籲地方各地方的這一個首長應該要重視這個部分這聽起來就是說有些縣市我們針對於社安網也好或者是說因為今天不動嘛但是社安網的部分啊急難救助的部分目前聽起來是地方還沒有達到共識還沒有是沒錯\n338324\t361855\t所以這就很有可能我想再請教一個問題就是說如果我們最後大家還是不願意來認那勢必就一定會有人不會被接到一定會有人會被犧牲或是因為他拿來這些錢地方拿來這些錢他沒有去做相對應的事情我想請教一個簡單的問題衛福部有沒有什麼工具可以來約束他們才能夠真正確保社安網的這些我們原本的設計概念可以被落實\n363717\t375053\t文回報這裡面我們現在目前就是說有關於我們現在目前的政策工具主要就是社福考核就是社福考核那邊到時候如果說你應該要編而未編應該盡的責任而未盡\n378616\t406136\t因處理而未處理那當然地方首長第一個要負政治責任另外第二個我們對不起那我們的這一個社福考核這邊我們可能就必須要降級降級的話你的補助款也跟著減少那這個就是但是這個聽起來好像約束力並沒有非常強對不對因為他們畢竟錢拿了更多嘛對吧是嗎因為我想這是民間大家都非常非常擔心的啦因為其實不管是在這個社福的領域也好或是在教育的領域也好大家都非常擔心的是說當地方把錢拿走了\n406676\t429979\t好他現在錢比中央還要甚至還要來的更多的時候那中央沒有任何的工具可以約束他就會造成勢必有些人一定被漏接好所以我想這個可能還是要這是剛剛我也認同次長的呼籲啦我想這個才化法就是整個在一個沒有跟地方充分協調事權的部分造成的一個後果是沒錯那我想不應該有任何人被犧牲啦所以我也是支持\n430800\t451047\t剛剛市長的呼籲那我也那個簡單回應一下就是說我們也在這邊呼籲那個首長可能真的那個錢真的要用在刀口上面不要就是說當然就是說我們都希望社福當然希望每個人都好可是每一個地方老實說一些最基本的特別是對兒少的這個補助這個真的是一毛錢都不能省還有像社會安全網你寧願\n453949\t476111\t沒有啦 我現在就是說 應該錢就要用在刀口上面這也是地方首長應該盡的責任 謝謝對 謝謝 因為我想這邊我也是再加強一下就是說因為其實地方現在的城鄉差距其實是非常非常大的那我們也有可能會造成說平者橫貧的一個風險這也是民間單位大家所擔心的一個狀態就是弱勢族群如果在地方沒有辦法充分運用\n477432\t499860\t而且有效的去實質的去把這些財源應用到地方的社政的一些資源的時候呢我們的弱勢族群會擴救的機會就會降低好這個然後再來就是說我們過去可能會有一些由中央統籌的重大社會救助計畫如果沒有充分的補助地方又不願意補足資源的時候\n500740\t519787\t我們還有一個很大的問題是人才跟後勤會出現短程那這有可能是我們社安碗其實下一步大家一直在討論我們的社工的一個比例是不是應該要來去做一些調整因為長期以來我們的社工的壓力都非常非常的大所以這個可能就是我也想要請教就是說最後一個簡單的問題就是說\n523296\t537624\t我們這個部分呢如果我想我們討論的方向會怎麼討論因為到底是會大家都要維持一樣的標準嗎各縣市一樣的標準呢還是我們會因為不同的縣市的一個狀態會有不同的協助呢中央現在這邊的態度是什麼\n540844\t561164\t首先我先回應那個委員第一個問題現在確實我們即使經過社安網第一期的這個擴充我們現在目前在國際比較來說我們每一位的社工比老實說還是偏低我們現在目前是1比1123但是相較於鄰近的這個香港如果沒有記錯好像是1比500\n562425\t582620\t然後美國好像是1比800的樣子Anyway都是比這個事實上我們還有應該要還有擴充的空間那我們現在目前也跟委員報告我們現在目前三網第二期2.0我們現在目前也已經完成規劃也已經送給這個行政院來做那個相關的規劃希望能夠來這邊來補足相關的這個人力以上\n583380\t607560\t我簡單確認一下就是說因為每個縣市的財政狀況不是這樣到時候中央的方向是說我可能會比較有錢的地方我會願意讓他自己多付一點比較窮的地方我們會多協助一點是這個樣子沒錯我們會往這個方向來沒錯我們就是那個平者平之不平者不平之就是這樣那個你敢扣你就是要多幫忙多支持一點嘛對不對會多支持一點但是能力強的對不起這個地方政府你們要自己要自己\n608140\t616482\t要負起應該要有的這個責任好那最後一個簡單的問題就是說我們現在針對於新的才化法的一些影響性評估我們現在已經算出來了嗎\n618601\t637135\t有算出來嗎?報告委員,我們現在目前,您說有關於社會福利這邊嗎?對對對我們現在目前都在跟主計那邊,它其實有算出一個版本,但是我們現在目前還在持續那大概什麼時候可以提供給我們辦公室呢?我們會趕快跟主計這邊,協調好之後趕快把結果跟委員報告,好不好?那我們可以押一個時間嗎?一個月?呃...\n647801\t651883\t這個部分不知道委員我們可能要跟竹總我們會盡快地方政府那邊也很關心好不好那我們就一個月之後再來詢問一下進度好感謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長部長好那我想今天我們是要來審查這個社會救助法那其實在2023年的時候已經整併了一個版本但是其實民間對它都還是有蠻多的期待但是因為這裡面其實是設定到了就是說在社會救助法第36條明訂了\n各級政府中央直轄市縣市及相關的目的事業主管機關都應該各自編列預算來辦理救助業務那在這個中央政府依照地方制度法第69條規定要以定額涉算的方式來補助直轄市縣市政府的一些社會福利的相關政策\n但是必須限定它的一些支出範圍跟用途那地方其實需要編列相對應的一些預算所以在今天這個社會救助法討論之前我想要先確認一件事情就是有關於才化法的部分因為新任的才化法對於我們現在既有的一些工作業務上面會不會我們跟縣市的討論是什麼所以我想要先就這一點來跟部長來做討論\n就例如說我們這次修法最主要的變動其實是營業稅由原本給地方的40%現在其實是給了百分之百也就是說全部的營業稅都給了地方我想我的認知應該是正確的那第二個部分是所得稅的部分從10%上升到11%\n也都给到了地方那土地增值税的部分呢也是全数回归不再由中央管那最后一个部分呢其实是原本给地方的一般性补助管绝对不能比上一年度来的少这样做其实过去是为了避免地方社福的预算直接被删减我想我的理解应该是没有错对吗\n好那我们从组织总处的报告可以看到就是2025年其实地方就可以拿到3753亿的统筹税款所以其实中央的财源已经变少了地方大幅的增加那接下来就想要请教我们跟我们明年度的社福预算将会有不同的分配吗那目前依照于现在的财务法我们要自弹性支出里面三减28%\n對嗎好 那我想請教我們現在跟地方縣市政府各自的討論現在分配的比例我們已經討論好了嗎跟縣市政府針對財化法的影響\n目前都還在寫上當中是不是要請那個好 我們請市長回答社務的理事長非常感謝張委員的一個指教確實就像陳如委員剛剛所說財化法通過之後事實上那個整個地方那邊已經增加三千多億了那另外一個第二個重點我也必須要在這邊強調社會救助在全世界各國都屬於地方自治的事項台灣也不例外根據我們地方制度法第十九條第三項第二目是屬於縣市自治\n這是事項 這我必須要核心序明第三點 剛剛委員剛剛所說的就是說這邊 至於影響之後相關的一些整個這個比例我們現在目前還跟地方政府還在密切我想問一下 我們先不到社會救助法我們先在社福預算救財化法的部分\n因為其實過去會有一些補助那現在地方到底會不會去認呢我想這大概是最關注的部分總不能說有些縣市可能拿很多縣像直轄市台北市保證3%可是其他地方並沒有這樣子得到相對多甚至有些地方可能增加的幅度也非常非常的少\n那到底這些社福會不會受到什麼樣子的影響我覺得這個我們其實是想要了解那地方到底為什麼喬布隆大家的爭議點在哪裡是不是可以請市長簡單說我可以簡單回應一下那個那個委員的那個槌尋兩個重點第一個就是說我們對於社會中央對地方的補助有兩個一個是一般您剛剛所說的一般補助款\n另外第二是所謂的計劃型補助一般補助款的話其實根據就根據這個地方的人口這裡面會有一些一般的社算這是第一個我們現在目前這個部分可能也會有一些調整這是第一個另外第二個就是地方型地方型主要有兩個部分一個就是大家有點育兒津貼的部分另外第二個就是說我們現在目前的社會安全網那我跟委員必須要報告這個有關育兒津貼的部分這個是我們恐怕還是維持原案\n就是說比例上面來說我們現在目前我們這個部分我們現在目前還在跟地方這邊還做一些相關的一些協調但是到目前為止這個育兒今天的部分我們現在暫時先不動但是有一些屬於計劃型剛剛說的社安網的部分的話那恐怕\n恐怕必須要根據地方的這個財力可能要有一些分級我跟你們報告譬如說像這個像有一些那個像台北台北的這個稅收非常非常高那如果比例還是維持\n還是要大部分都在中央的話這個老說是說不過去啦社安網雖然是屬於計畫型但是老說對於民眾的社會安全是非常非常重要的所以我也在這邊呼籲地方各地方的這一個首長應該要重視這個部分這聽起來就是說有些縣市我們針對於社安網也好或者是說因為今天不動嘛但是社安網的部分啊急難救助的部分目前聽起來是地方還沒有達到共識還沒有是沒錯\n所以這就很有可能我想再請教一個問題就是說如果我們最後大家還是不願意來認那勢必就一定會有人不會被接到一定會有人會被犧牲或是因為他拿來這些錢地方拿來這些錢他沒有去做相對應的事情我想請教一個簡單的問題衛福部有沒有什麼工具可以來約束他們才能夠真正確保社安網的這些我們原本的設計概念可以被落實\n文回報這裡面我們現在目前就是說有關於我們現在目前的政策工具主要就是社福考核就是社福考核那邊到時候如果說你應該要編而未編應該盡的責任而未盡\n因處理而未處理那當然地方首長第一個要負政治責任另外第二個我們對不起那我們的這一個社福考核這邊我們可能就必須要降級降級的話你的補助款也跟著減少那這個就是但是這個聽起來好像約束力並沒有非常強對不對因為他們畢竟錢拿了更多嘛對吧是嗎因為我想這是民間大家都非常非常擔心的啦因為其實不管是在這個社福的領域也好或是在教育的領域也好大家都非常擔心的是說當地方把錢拿走了\n好他現在錢比中央還要甚至還要來的更多的時候那中央沒有任何的工具可以約束他就會造成勢必有些人一定被漏接好所以我想這個可能還是要這是剛剛我也認同次長的呼籲啦我想這個才化法就是整個在一個沒有跟地方充分協調事權的部分造成的一個後果是沒錯那我想不應該有任何人被犧牲啦所以我也是支持\n剛剛市長的呼籲那我也那個簡單回應一下就是說我們也在這邊呼籲那個首長可能真的那個錢真的要用在刀口上面不要就是說當然就是說我們都希望社福當然希望每個人都好可是每一個地方老實說一些最基本的特別是對兒少的這個補助這個真的是一毛錢都不能省還有像社會安全網你寧願\n沒有啦 我現在就是說 應該錢就要用在刀口上面這也是地方首長應該盡的責任 謝謝對 謝謝 因為我想這邊我也是再加強一下就是說因為其實地方現在的城鄉差距其實是非常非常大的那我們也有可能會造成說平者橫貧的一個風險這也是民間單位大家所擔心的一個狀態就是弱勢族群如果在地方沒有辦法充分運用\n而且有效的去實質的去把這些財源應用到地方的社政的一些資源的時候呢我們的弱勢族群會擴救的機會就會降低好這個然後再來就是說我們過去可能會有一些由中央統籌的重大社會救助計畫如果沒有充分的補助地方又不願意補足資源的時候\n我們還有一個很大的問題是人才跟後勤會出現短程那這有可能是我們社安碗其實下一步大家一直在討論我們的社工的一個比例是不是應該要來去做一些調整因為長期以來我們的社工的壓力都非常非常的大所以這個可能就是我也想要請教就是說最後一個簡單的問題就是說\n我們這個部分呢如果我想我們討論的方向會怎麼討論因為到底是會大家都要維持一樣的標準嗎各縣市一樣的標準呢還是我們會因為不同的縣市的一個狀態會有不同的協助呢中央現在這邊的態度是什麼\n首先我先回應那個委員第一個問題現在確實我們即使經過社安網第一期的這個擴充我們現在目前在國際比較來說我們每一位的社工比老實說還是偏低我們現在目前是1比1123但是相較於鄰近的這個香港如果沒有記錯好像是1比500\n然後美國好像是1比800的樣子Anyway都是比這個事實上我們還有應該要還有擴充的空間那我們現在目前也跟委員報告我們現在目前三網第二期2.0我們現在目前也已經完成規劃也已經送給這個行政院來做那個相關的規劃希望能夠來這邊來補足相關的這個人力以上\n我簡單確認一下就是說因為每個縣市的財政狀況不是這樣到時候中央的方向是說我可能會比較有錢的地方我會願意讓他自己多付一點比較窮的地方我們會多協助一點是這個樣子沒錯我們會往這個方向來沒錯我們就是那個平者平之不平者不平之就是這樣那個你敢扣你就是要多幫忙多支持一點嘛對不對會多支持一點但是能力強的對不起這個地方政府你們要自己要自己\n要負起應該要有的這個責任好那最後一個簡單的問題就是說我們現在針對於新的才化法的一些影響性評估我們現在已經算出來了嗎\n有算出來嗎?報告委員,我們現在目前,您說有關於社會福利這邊嗎?對對對我們現在目前都在跟主計那邊,它其實有算出一個版本,但是我們現在目前還在持續那大概什麼時候可以提供給我們辦公室呢?我們會趕快跟主計這邊,協調好之後趕快把結果跟委員報告,好不好?那我們可以押一個時間嗎?一個月?呃...\n這個部分不知道委員我們可能要跟竹總我們會盡快地方政府那邊也很關心好不好那我們就一個月之後再來詢問一下進度好感謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.220 --> 00:08.302\n謝謝主席我們有請部長部長好那我想今天我們是要來審查這個社會救助法那其實在2023年的時候已經整併了一個版本但是其實民間對它都還是有蠻多的期待但是因為這裡面其實是設定到了就是說在社會救助法第36條明訂了\n\n00:30.479 --> 00:46.964\n各級政府中央直轄市縣市及相關的目的事業主管機關都應該各自編列預算來辦理救助業務那在這個中央政府依照地方制度法第69條規定要以定額涉算的方式來補助直轄市縣市政府的一些社會福利的相關政策\n\n00:48.024 --> 01:11.249\n但是必須限定它的一些支出範圍跟用途那地方其實需要編列相對應的一些預算所以在今天這個社會救助法討論之前我想要先確認一件事情就是有關於才化法的部分因為新任的才化法對於我們現在既有的一些工作業務上面會不會我們跟縣市的討論是什麼所以我想要先就這一點來跟部長來做討論\n\n01:14.452 --> 01:34.214\n就例如說我們這次修法最主要的變動其實是營業稅由原本給地方的40%現在其實是給了百分之百也就是說全部的營業稅都給了地方我想我的認知應該是正確的那第二個部分是所得稅的部分從10%上升到11%\n\n01:35.575 --> 02:00.221\n也都给到了地方那土地增值税的部分呢也是全数回归不再由中央管那最后一个部分呢其实是原本给地方的一般性补助管绝对不能比上一年度来的少这样做其实过去是为了避免地方社福的预算直接被删减我想我的理解应该是没有错对吗\n\n02:01.209 --> 02:26.909\n好那我们从组织总处的报告可以看到就是2025年其实地方就可以拿到3753亿的统筹税款所以其实中央的财源已经变少了地方大幅的增加那接下来就想要请教我们跟我们明年度的社福预算将会有不同的分配吗那目前依照于现在的财务法我们要自弹性支出里面三减28%\n\n02:29.291 --> 02:42.289\n對嗎好那我想請教我們現在跟地方縣市政府各自的討論現在分配的比例我們已經討論好了嗎跟縣市政府針對財化法的影響\n\n02:44.192 --> 03:11.801\n目前都還在寫上當中是不是要請那個好我們請市長回答社務的理事長非常感謝張委員的一個指教確實就像陳如委員剛剛所說財化法通過之後事實上那個整個地方那邊已經增加三千多億了那另外一個第二個重點我也必須要在這邊強調社會救助在全世界各國都屬於地方自治的事項台灣也不例外根據我們地方制度法第十九條第三項第二目是屬於縣市自治\n\n03:12.441 --> 03:31.580\n這是事項這我必須要核心序明第三點剛剛委員剛剛所說的就是說這邊至於影響之後相關的一些整個這個比例我們現在目前還跟地方政府還在密切我想問一下我們先不到社會救助法我們先在社福預算救財化法的部分\n\n03:32.160 --> 03:49.195\n因為其實過去會有一些補助那現在地方到底會不會去認呢我想這大概是最關注的部分總不能說有些縣市可能拿很多縣像直轄市台北市保證3%可是其他地方並沒有這樣子得到相對多甚至有些地方可能增加的幅度也非常非常的少\n\n03:49.775 --> 04:07.863\n那到底這些社福會不會受到什麼樣子的影響我覺得這個我們其實是想要了解那地方到底為什麼喬布隆大家的爭議點在哪裡是不是可以請市長簡單說我可以簡單回應一下那個那個委員的那個槌尋兩個重點第一個就是說我們對於社會中央對地方的補助有兩個一個是一般您剛剛所說的一般補助款\n\n04:08.583 --> 04:36.842\n另外第二是所謂的計劃型補助一般補助款的話其實根據就根據這個地方的人口這裡面會有一些一般的社算這是第一個我們現在目前這個部分可能也會有一些調整這是第一個另外第二個就是地方型地方型主要有兩個部分一個就是大家有點育兒津貼的部分另外第二個就是說我們現在目前的社會安全網那我跟委員必須要報告這個有關育兒津貼的部分這個是我們恐怕還是維持原案\n\n04:37.862 --> 04:54.163\n就是說比例上面來說我們現在目前我們這個部分我們現在目前還在跟地方這邊還做一些相關的一些協調但是到目前為止這個育兒今天的部分我們現在暫時先不動但是有一些屬於計劃型剛剛說的社安網的部分的話那恐怕\n\n04:54.864 --> 05:09.224\n恐怕必須要根據地方的這個財力可能要有一些分級我跟你們報告譬如說像這個像有一些那個像台北台北的這個稅收非常非常高那如果比例還是維持\n\n05:11.046 --> 05:37.444\n還是要大部分都在中央的話這個老說是說不過去啦社安網雖然是屬於計畫型但是老說對於民眾的社會安全是非常非常重要的所以我也在這邊呼籲地方各地方的這一個首長應該要重視這個部分這聽起來就是說有些縣市我們針對於社安網也好或者是說因為今天不動嘛但是社安網的部分啊急難救助的部分目前聽起來是地方還沒有達到共識還沒有是沒錯\n\n05:38.324 --> 06:01.855\n所以這就很有可能我想再請教一個問題就是說如果我們最後大家還是不願意來認那勢必就一定會有人不會被接到一定會有人會被犧牲或是因為他拿來這些錢地方拿來這些錢他沒有去做相對應的事情我想請教一個簡單的問題衛福部有沒有什麼工具可以來約束他們才能夠真正確保社安網的這些我們原本的設計概念可以被落實\n\n06:03.717 --> 06:15.053\n文回報這裡面我們現在目前就是說有關於我們現在目前的政策工具主要就是社福考核就是社福考核那邊到時候如果說你應該要編而未編應該盡的責任而未盡\n\n06:18.616 --> 06:46.136\n因處理而未處理那當然地方首長第一個要負政治責任另外第二個我們對不起那我們的這一個社福考核這邊我們可能就必須要降級降級的話你的補助款也跟著減少那這個就是但是這個聽起來好像約束力並沒有非常強對不對因為他們畢竟錢拿了更多嘛對吧是嗎因為我想這是民間大家都非常非常擔心的啦因為其實不管是在這個社福的領域也好或是在教育的領域也好大家都非常擔心的是說當地方把錢拿走了\n\n06:46.676 --> 07:09.979\n好他現在錢比中央還要甚至還要來的更多的時候那中央沒有任何的工具可以約束他就會造成勢必有些人一定被漏接好所以我想這個可能還是要這是剛剛我也認同次長的呼籲啦我想這個才化法就是整個在一個沒有跟地方充分協調事權的部分造成的一個後果是沒錯那我想不應該有任何人被犧牲啦所以我也是支持\n\n07:10.800 --> 07:31.047\n剛剛市長的呼籲那我也那個簡單回應一下就是說我們也在這邊呼籲那個首長可能真的那個錢真的要用在刀口上面不要就是說當然就是說我們都希望社福當然希望每個人都好可是每一個地方老實說一些最基本的特別是對兒少的這個補助這個真的是一毛錢都不能省還有像社會安全網你寧願\n\n07:33.949 --> 07:56.111\n沒有啦我現在就是說應該錢就要用在刀口上面這也是地方首長應該盡的責任謝謝對謝謝因為我想這邊我也是再加強一下就是說因為其實地方現在的城鄉差距其實是非常非常大的那我們也有可能會造成說平者橫貧的一個風險這也是民間單位大家所擔心的一個狀態就是弱勢族群如果在地方沒有辦法充分運用\n\n07:57.432 --> 08:19.860\n而且有效的去實質的去把這些財源應用到地方的社政的一些資源的時候呢我們的弱勢族群會擴救的機會就會降低好這個然後再來就是說我們過去可能會有一些由中央統籌的重大社會救助計畫如果沒有充分的補助地方又不願意補足資源的時候\n\n08:20.740 --> 08:39.787\n我們還有一個很大的問題是人才跟後勤會出現短程那這有可能是我們社安碗其實下一步大家一直在討論我們的社工的一個比例是不是應該要來去做一些調整因為長期以來我們的社工的壓力都非常非常的大所以這個可能就是我也想要請教就是說最後一個簡單的問題就是說\n\n08:43.296 --> 08:57.624\n我們這個部分呢如果我想我們討論的方向會怎麼討論因為到底是會大家都要維持一樣的標準嗎各縣市一樣的標準呢還是我們會因為不同的縣市的一個狀態會有不同的協助呢中央現在這邊的態度是什麼\n\n09:00.844 --> 09:21.164\n首先我先回應那個委員第一個問題現在確實我們即使經過社安網第一期的這個擴充我們現在目前在國際比較來說我們每一位的社工比老實說還是偏低我們現在目前是1比1123但是相較於鄰近的這個香港如果沒有記錯好像是1比500\n\n09:22.425 --> 09:42.620\n然後美國好像是1比800的樣子Anyway都是比這個事實上我們還有應該要還有擴充的空間那我們現在目前也跟委員報告我們現在目前三網第二期2.0我們現在目前也已經完成規劃也已經送給這個行政院來做那個相關的規劃希望能夠來這邊來補足相關的這個人力以上\n\n09:43.380 --> 10:07.560\n我簡單確認一下就是說因為每個縣市的財政狀況不是這樣到時候中央的方向是說我可能會比較有錢的地方我會願意讓他自己多付一點比較窮的地方我們會多協助一點是這個樣子沒錯我們會往這個方向來沒錯我們就是那個平者平之不平者不平之就是這樣那個你敢扣你就是要多幫忙多支持一點嘛對不對會多支持一點但是能力強的對不起這個地方政府你們要自己要自己\n\n10:08.140 --> 10:16.482\n要負起應該要有的這個責任好那最後一個簡單的問題就是說我們現在針對於新的才化法的一些影響性評估我們現在已經算出來了嗎\n\n10:18.601 --> 10:37.135\n有算出來嗎?報告委員,我們現在目前,您說有關於社會福利這邊嗎?對對對我們現在目前都在跟主計那邊,它其實有算出一個版本,但是我們現在目前還在持續那大概什麼時候可以提供給我們辦公室呢?我們會趕快跟主計這邊,協調好之後趕快把結果跟委員報告,好不好?那我們可以押一個時間嗎?一個月?呃...\n\n10:47.801 --> 10:51.883\n這個部分不知道委員我們可能要跟竹總我們會盡快地方政府那邊也很關心好不好那我們就一個月之後再來詢問一下進度好感謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.22,"end":8.302,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長部長好那我想今天我們是要來審查這個社會救助法那其實在2023年的時候已經整併了一個版本但是其實民間對它都還是有蠻多的期待但是因為這裡面其實是設定到了就是說在社會救助法第36條明訂了"},{"start":30.479,"end":46.964,"text":"各級政府中央直轄市縣市及相關的目的事業主管機關都應該各自編列預算來辦理救助業務那在這個中央政府依照地方制度法第69條規定要以定額涉算的方式來補助直轄市縣市政府的一些社會福利的相關政策"},{"start":48.024,"end":71.249,"text":"但是必須限定它的一些支出範圍跟用途那地方其實需要編列相對應的一些預算所以在今天這個社會救助法討論之前我想要先確認一件事情就是有關於才化法的部分因為新任的才化法對於我們現在既有的一些工作業務上面會不會我們跟縣市的討論是什麼所以我想要先就這一點來跟部長來做討論"},{"start":74.452,"end":94.214,"text":"就例如說我們這次修法最主要的變動其實是營業稅由原本給地方的40%現在其實是給了百分之百也就是說全部的營業稅都給了地方我想我的認知應該是正確的那第二個部分是所得稅的部分從10%上升到11%"},{"start":95.575,"end":120.221,"text":"也都给到了地方那土地增值税的部分呢也是全数回归不再由中央管那最后一个部分呢其实是原本给地方的一般性补助管绝对不能比上一年度来的少这样做其实过去是为了避免地方社福的预算直接被删减我想我的理解应该是没有错对吗"},{"start":121.209,"end":146.909,"text":"好那我们从组织总处的报告可以看到就是2025年其实地方就可以拿到3753亿的统筹税款所以其实中央的财源已经变少了地方大幅的增加那接下来就想要请教我们跟我们明年度的社福预算将会有不同的分配吗那目前依照于现在的财务法我们要自弹性支出里面三减28%"},{"start":149.291,"end":162.289,"text":"對嗎好 那我想請教我們現在跟地方縣市政府各自的討論現在分配的比例我們已經討論好了嗎跟縣市政府針對財化法的影響"},{"start":164.192,"end":191.801,"text":"目前都還在寫上當中是不是要請那個好 我們請市長回答社務的理事長非常感謝張委員的一個指教確實就像陳如委員剛剛所說財化法通過之後事實上那個整個地方那邊已經增加三千多億了那另外一個第二個重點我也必須要在這邊強調社會救助在全世界各國都屬於地方自治的事項台灣也不例外根據我們地方制度法第十九條第三項第二目是屬於縣市自治"},{"start":192.441,"end":211.58,"text":"這是事項 這我必須要核心序明第三點 剛剛委員剛剛所說的就是說這邊 至於影響之後相關的一些整個這個比例我們現在目前還跟地方政府還在密切我想問一下 我們先不到社會救助法我們先在社福預算救財化法的部分"},{"start":212.16,"end":229.195,"text":"因為其實過去會有一些補助那現在地方到底會不會去認呢我想這大概是最關注的部分總不能說有些縣市可能拿很多縣像直轄市台北市保證3%可是其他地方並沒有這樣子得到相對多甚至有些地方可能增加的幅度也非常非常的少"},{"start":229.775,"end":247.863,"text":"那到底這些社福會不會受到什麼樣子的影響我覺得這個我們其實是想要了解那地方到底為什麼喬布隆大家的爭議點在哪裡是不是可以請市長簡單說我可以簡單回應一下那個那個委員的那個槌尋兩個重點第一個就是說我們對於社會中央對地方的補助有兩個一個是一般您剛剛所說的一般補助款"},{"start":248.583,"end":276.842,"text":"另外第二是所謂的計劃型補助一般補助款的話其實根據就根據這個地方的人口這裡面會有一些一般的社算這是第一個我們現在目前這個部分可能也會有一些調整這是第一個另外第二個就是地方型地方型主要有兩個部分一個就是大家有點育兒津貼的部分另外第二個就是說我們現在目前的社會安全網那我跟委員必須要報告這個有關育兒津貼的部分這個是我們恐怕還是維持原案"},{"start":277.862,"end":294.163,"text":"就是說比例上面來說我們現在目前我們這個部分我們現在目前還在跟地方這邊還做一些相關的一些協調但是到目前為止這個育兒今天的部分我們現在暫時先不動但是有一些屬於計劃型剛剛說的社安網的部分的話那恐怕"},{"start":294.864,"end":309.224,"text":"恐怕必須要根據地方的這個財力可能要有一些分級我跟你們報告譬如說像這個像有一些那個像台北台北的這個稅收非常非常高那如果比例還是維持"},{"start":311.046,"end":337.444,"text":"還是要大部分都在中央的話這個老說是說不過去啦社安網雖然是屬於計畫型但是老說對於民眾的社會安全是非常非常重要的所以我也在這邊呼籲地方各地方的這一個首長應該要重視這個部分這聽起來就是說有些縣市我們針對於社安網也好或者是說因為今天不動嘛但是社安網的部分啊急難救助的部分目前聽起來是地方還沒有達到共識還沒有是沒錯"},{"start":338.324,"end":361.855,"text":"所以這就很有可能我想再請教一個問題就是說如果我們最後大家還是不願意來認那勢必就一定會有人不會被接到一定會有人會被犧牲或是因為他拿來這些錢地方拿來這些錢他沒有去做相對應的事情我想請教一個簡單的問題衛福部有沒有什麼工具可以來約束他們才能夠真正確保社安網的這些我們原本的設計概念可以被落實"},{"start":363.717,"end":375.053,"text":"文回報這裡面我們現在目前就是說有關於我們現在目前的政策工具主要就是社福考核就是社福考核那邊到時候如果說你應該要編而未編應該盡的責任而未盡"},{"start":378.616,"end":406.136,"text":"因處理而未處理那當然地方首長第一個要負政治責任另外第二個我們對不起那我們的這一個社福考核這邊我們可能就必須要降級降級的話你的補助款也跟著減少那這個就是但是這個聽起來好像約束力並沒有非常強對不對因為他們畢竟錢拿了更多嘛對吧是嗎因為我想這是民間大家都非常非常擔心的啦因為其實不管是在這個社福的領域也好或是在教育的領域也好大家都非常擔心的是說當地方把錢拿走了"},{"start":406.676,"end":429.979,"text":"好他現在錢比中央還要甚至還要來的更多的時候那中央沒有任何的工具可以約束他就會造成勢必有些人一定被漏接好所以我想這個可能還是要這是剛剛我也認同次長的呼籲啦我想這個才化法就是整個在一個沒有跟地方充分協調事權的部分造成的一個後果是沒錯那我想不應該有任何人被犧牲啦所以我也是支持"},{"start":430.8,"end":451.047,"text":"剛剛市長的呼籲那我也那個簡單回應一下就是說我們也在這邊呼籲那個首長可能真的那個錢真的要用在刀口上面不要就是說當然就是說我們都希望社福當然希望每個人都好可是每一個地方老實說一些最基本的特別是對兒少的這個補助這個真的是一毛錢都不能省還有像社會安全網你寧願"},{"start":453.949,"end":476.111,"text":"沒有啦 我現在就是說 應該錢就要用在刀口上面這也是地方首長應該盡的責任 謝謝對 謝謝 因為我想這邊我也是再加強一下就是說因為其實地方現在的城鄉差距其實是非常非常大的那我們也有可能會造成說平者橫貧的一個風險這也是民間單位大家所擔心的一個狀態就是弱勢族群如果在地方沒有辦法充分運用"},{"start":477.432,"end":499.86,"text":"而且有效的去實質的去把這些財源應用到地方的社政的一些資源的時候呢我們的弱勢族群會擴救的機會就會降低好這個然後再來就是說我們過去可能會有一些由中央統籌的重大社會救助計畫如果沒有充分的補助地方又不願意補足資源的時候"},{"start":500.74,"end":519.787,"text":"我們還有一個很大的問題是人才跟後勤會出現短程那這有可能是我們社安碗其實下一步大家一直在討論我們的社工的一個比例是不是應該要來去做一些調整因為長期以來我們的社工的壓力都非常非常的大所以這個可能就是我也想要請教就是說最後一個簡單的問題就是說"},{"start":523.296,"end":537.624,"text":"我們這個部分呢如果我想我們討論的方向會怎麼討論因為到底是會大家都要維持一樣的標準嗎各縣市一樣的標準呢還是我們會因為不同的縣市的一個狀態會有不同的協助呢中央現在這邊的態度是什麼"},{"start":540.844,"end":561.164,"text":"首先我先回應那個委員第一個問題現在確實我們即使經過社安網第一期的這個擴充我們現在目前在國際比較來說我們每一位的社工比老實說還是偏低我們現在目前是1比1123但是相較於鄰近的這個香港如果沒有記錯好像是1比500"},{"start":562.425,"end":582.62,"text":"然後美國好像是1比800的樣子Anyway都是比這個事實上我們還有應該要還有擴充的空間那我們現在目前也跟委員報告我們現在目前三網第二期2.0我們現在目前也已經完成規劃也已經送給這個行政院來做那個相關的規劃希望能夠來這邊來補足相關的這個人力以上"},{"start":583.38,"end":607.56,"text":"我簡單確認一下就是說因為每個縣市的財政狀況不是這樣到時候中央的方向是說我可能會比較有錢的地方我會願意讓他自己多付一點比較窮的地方我們會多協助一點是這個樣子沒錯我們會往這個方向來沒錯我們就是那個平者平之不平者不平之就是這樣那個你敢扣你就是要多幫忙多支持一點嘛對不對會多支持一點但是能力強的對不起這個地方政府你們要自己要自己"},{"start":608.14,"end":616.482,"text":"要負起應該要有的這個責任好那最後一個簡單的問題就是說我們現在針對於新的才化法的一些影響性評估我們現在已經算出來了嗎"},{"start":618.601,"end":637.135,"text":"有算出來嗎?報告委員,我們現在目前,您說有關於社會福利這邊嗎?對對對我們現在目前都在跟主計那邊,它其實有算出一個版本,但是我們現在目前還在持續那大概什麼時候可以提供給我們辦公室呢?我們會趕快跟主計這邊,協調好之後趕快把結果跟委員報告,好不好?那我們可以押一個時間嗎?一個月?呃..."},{"start":647.801,"end":651.883,"text":"這個部分不知道委員我們可能要跟竹總我們會盡快地方政府那邊也很關心好不好那我們就一個月之後再來詢問一下進度好感謝委員謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1238,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時7分）謝謝主席。我們有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。今天我們要來審查社會救助法，其實在2023年的時候已經整併了一個版本，民間對它還是有蠻多的期待，但是因為這涉及到社會救助法第三十六條明定了各級政府，應由中央、直轄市、縣（市）及相關目的事業主管機關都應該各自編列預算辦理救助業務。中央政府依地方制度法第六十九條規定，要以定額設算的方式補助直轄市、縣（市）政府的一些社會福利的相關政策，但必須限定支出之範圍及用途，地方其實需要編列相對應的一些預算。","在今天社會救助法討論之前，我想要先確認一件事情，就是有關於財劃法的部分，新的財劃法對於現在既有的一些工作業務上面，縣市的討論是什麼？所以我想要先就這一點來跟部長討論。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["張委員雅琳：例如說這次修法最主要的變動，營業稅由原本給地方的40%，現在給了100%，也就是說全部的營業稅都給了地方，我想我的認知應該是正確的；第二個部分是所得稅的部分，從10%上升到11%，也都給了地方；土地增值稅的部分，也是全數回歸，不再由中央管；最後一個部分，原本給地方的一般性補助款，絕對不能比上一年度來得少，這樣做過去是為了避免地方社福的預算直接被刪減，我想我的理解應該是沒有錯，對嗎？好。","我們從主計總處的報告看到，2025年地方就可以拿到3,753億的統籌稅款，所以其實中央的財源已經變少了，地方大幅地增加，明年度的社福預算將會有不同的分配，依照現在的財劃法要自彈性支出裡面刪減28%，對嗎？","好。那我想請教我們現在跟地方縣市政府就分配比例已經討論好了嗎？跟縣市政府針對財劃法的影響。"],["邱部長泰源：目前都還在協商當中，是不是請……"],["張委員雅琳：好，我們請次長回答。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝張委員的指教，確實誠如委員剛剛所說，財劃法通過之後，事實上，整個地方已經增加三千多億；第二個重點，我也必須要這邊強調，社會救助在全世界各國都屬於地方自治的事項，臺灣也不例外，根據我們的地方制度法第十九條第三項第二款是屬於縣市自治之事項，這我必須要先敘明；第三點，委員剛剛所說的，至於影響之後相關的比例，我們現在還在跟地方政府密切協商當中。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，我們先不談社會救助法，我們先談財劃法在社福預算部分的影響，其實過去有一些補助沒錯，現在地方到底會不會認呢？我想這是大家最關注的部分，總不能說有些縣市可能拿很多，像直轄市臺北市保證3%，可是其他地方並沒有得到這樣的補助，甚至有些地方增加的幅度可能也非常非常少。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["張委員雅琳：那到底這些社福預算會受到什麼樣的影響？我覺得我們都想要了解；那地方到底為什麼喬不攏？大家的爭議點在哪裡？是不是可以請次長簡單說明。"],["呂次長建德：我簡單回應一下委員的垂詢，兩個重點，第一個就是中央對地方的補助有兩個，一個是您剛剛所說的一般補助款，第二個是所謂的計畫型補助，一般補助款的話就是根據地方的人口，這裡面會有一些一般的設算，我們目前對這個部分可能也會有一些調整，這是第一個；第二個就是所謂地方型，地方型主要有兩個部分，一個就是育兒津貼的部分，第二個就是目前的社會安全網，我必須要跟委員報告，有關於育兒津貼的部分，恐怕還是維持原案，就是比例上來說，目前我們還在跟地方做一些相關的協調，但到目前為止，育兒津貼的部分，現在暫時先不動，但是有一些屬於計畫型的，剛剛說的社安網的部分，恐怕就必須根據地方的財力要有一些分級。我跟委員報告，比如臺北市的稅收非常非常高，如果還是維持大部分都在中央的話，老實說是說不過去啦，社安網雖然是屬於計畫型，但是對於民眾的社會安全是非常非常重要的，所以我也在這邊呼籲各地方首長，應該要重視這個部分。"],["張委員雅琳：因為育兒津貼不動，但是社安網急難救助的部分，目前聽起來是有些縣市還沒有達到共識，對嗎？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我想再請教一個問題，就是如果最後大家還是不願意來認，那勢必就一定會有人不被接到，一定會有人被犧牲，或是因為地方拿了這些錢，卻沒有去做相對應的事情，我想請教一個簡單的問題，衛福部有沒有什麼工具可以來約束他們，才能夠真正確保社安網我們原本的設計概念可以被落實？"],["呂次長建德：我跟委員回報，我們現在的政治工具主要就是社福考核，就是到時候如果你應該要編而未編、應該盡的責任未盡、應處理而未處理，當然地方首長第一個要負政治責任，第二個，對不起，那我們的社福考核可能就必須要降級，降級的話，補助款也會跟著減少。"],["張委員雅琳：但是這聽起來好像約束力並沒有非常強，對不對？因為他們畢竟錢拿得更多嘛，對吧？因為這是民間大家都非常非常擔心的，不管在社福的領域也好，或是在教育的領域也好，大家都非常擔心當地方把錢拿走了，他們有些甚至錢比中央還要來得更多，而中央沒有任何的工具可以約束他們，就會造成勢必有些人一定會被漏接，所以我想這個可能還是要……我也認同剛剛次長的呼籲，這個財劃法就是整個在沒有跟地方充分協調事權造成的後果。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["張委員雅琳：我想不應該有任何人被犧牲，所以我也支持剛剛次長的呼籲。"],["呂次長建德：那我也那個簡單回應一下，我們也要在這邊呼籲首長，那個錢真的要用在刀口上，社福當然希望每個人都好，可是每一個地方老實說一些最基本的特別是對兒少的補助，真的是一毛錢都不能省，還有像社會安全網，錢就要用在刀口上，這也是地方首長應該盡的責任，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：對，謝謝。這邊我也是再加強一下，因為其實地方現在的城鄉差距非常非常大，也有可能會造成貧者恆貧的風險，這也是民間大家所擔心的狀態，就是如果地方沒有辦法充分有效的運用，實質的把這些財源應用到社政的時候，弱勢族群獲救的機會就會降低；再來就是過去可能會有一些由中央統籌的重大社會救助計畫，如果沒有充分的補助，而地方又不願意補足資源的時候；我們還有一個很大問題是人才跟後勤會出現斷層，這有可能是我們的社安網下一步會面臨的問題。大家一直在討論社工的比例是不是應該要做一些調整，因為長期以來，社工的壓力都非常非常的大，所以我也想要請教最後一個簡單的問題，就這個部分我們討論的方向會怎麼？到底是各縣市都要維持一樣的標準，還是會因為不同縣市的狀態而有不同的協助？中央現在態度是什麼？"],["呂次長建德：首先，我先回應委員第一個問題，現在即使經過社安網第一期的擴充，我們現在跟國際比較，我們的社工比確實還是偏低，現在是1比1,123，但是鄰近的香港，我如果沒有記錯的話，好像是1比500，然後美國好像是1比800的樣子，所以我們應該還有擴充的空間。也跟委員報告，目前社安網2.0已經完成規劃，也已經送給行政院來做相關的規劃，希望能夠來補足相關的人力。"],["張委員雅琳：我簡單確認一下，就是因為每個縣市的財政狀況不一樣，到時候中央的方向是可能比較有錢的地方，我會請他自己多付一點，比較窮的地方，我們會多協助一點，是這個樣子嗎？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯，我們會往這個方向，我們就是貧者平之，不貧者不平之，就是這樣，艱難的地方就是要多幫忙。"],["張委員雅琳：會多支持一點。"],["呂次長建德：但是能力強的，對不起，地方政府自己要負起應該負的責任，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：最後一個簡單的問題，我們現在針對新的財劃法的影響評估已經算出來了嗎？有算出來嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，您說的是有關於社會福利嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["呂次長建德：有，主計處那邊其實有算出一個版本，我們目前還持續跟……"],["張委員雅琳：那大概什麼時候可以提供給我們辦公室呢？"],["呂次長建德：我們會趕快跟主計處協調好之後，把結果跟委員報告。"],["張委員雅琳：那我們可以押一個時間嗎？一個月？"],["呂次長建德：這個部分，報告委員，我們可能真的要跟主總這邊協調，我們會儘快啦！"],["張委員雅琳：好，我們就保持……"],["呂次長建德：地方政府那邊也很關心嘛。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我們就一個月之後再來詢問一下進度，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：好，感謝委員。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：接下來請盧縣一委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-19","speakers":["劉建國","范雲","林月琴","楊瓊瓔","陳昭姿","王育敏","陳菁徽","林淑芬","涂權吉","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張雅琳","盧縣一","黃秀芳","楊曜","林楚茵","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","陳瑩"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2025-07-07"],"gazette_id":"1146604","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146604_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員楊曜等17人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二、委員范雲等17人擬\n具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正\n草案」案；四、委員黃秀芳等20人擬具「社會救助法第二條、第四條及第十四條條文修正草案」\n案；五、委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；六、委員黃捷等16人\n擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；七、委員蔡其昌等 17 人擬具「社會救助法第四\n條、第四條之一及第五條條文修正草案」案；八、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n條文修正草案」案；九、委員王鴻薇等26人擬具「社會救助法第十五條及第十五條之一條文修正\n草案」案；十、委員邱若華等20人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、台灣民眾黨\n黨團擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；十三、委員楊瓊\n瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救\n助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案；十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文\n修正草案」案；十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；十七、委\n員馬文君等20 人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十八、委員葉元之等 21 人擬具\n「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n及第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、委員林楚茵\n等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救\n助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草\n案」案；二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案；二十六、\n委員吳沛憶等16 人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委員邱鎮軍等 24 人擬具\n「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條\n之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二\n條文修正草案」案；三十、委員馬文君等16 人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案\n【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1146604_00020"}}}