{"id":163018,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e6eee8dab835150d5210c5317fa0599a0e5ab0c0921fe90669bdc2baae805f386e64d1a1634640805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:37:40 - 12:52:57","影片長度":"00:15:17","會議時間":"2025-07-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員楊曜等17人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員范雲等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員黃秀芳等20人擬具「社會救助法第二條、第四條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃捷等16人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員蔡其昌等17人擬具「社會救助法第四條、第四條之一及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員王鴻薇等26人擬具「社會救助法第十五條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱若華等20人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等20人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員葉元之等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三十、委員馬文君等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-07-07","start_time":"2025-07-07T12:37:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-07T12:52:57+08:00","duration":917,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"163018","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163018","tool":"pyannote","id":"163018-pyannote"},"job_id":"LNZtaVPjyziA6Rb7","queued_at":"2025-07-07 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747.191, \"text\": \"可是各位你們今天要跟我們講說民法什麼有撫養義務大家都知道家長撫養小孩就算家長沒有能力的時候社福單位會接手對不對那今天小孩撫養家長請問各位你們家長的錢是你所有的收入都給他嗎也不是嘛你會扣除自己養家的需要剩下的才能夠飼養長輩嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 725.623, \"end\": 725.723, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 725.723, \"end\": 725.843, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 725.843, \"end\": 725.983, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 725.983, \"end\": 726.303, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 726.303, \"end\": 726.543, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 726.543, \"end\": 726.683, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 726.683, \"end\": 726.823, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 726.823, \"end\": 726.964, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 726.964, \"end\": 727.064, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 727.064, \"end\": 727.744, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 850.917, \"end\": 851.057, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 851.057, \"end\": 851.497, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 851.497, \"end\": 851.577, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 851.577, \"end\": 851.597, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 851.597, \"end\": 851.617, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謹\"}, {\"word\": \"慎\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 851.617, \"end\": 851.678, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 851.678, \"end\": 851.778, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 851.778, \"end\": 851.798, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 851.798, \"end\": 851.818, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 851.818, \"end\": 851.838, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 856.161, \"end\": 880.62, \"text\": \"那我們就不用修了我想不能這樣子我們剛剛秀芳委員的質詢等一下劉建國委員質詢我相信我們的心聲都是一樣啦我們對這一屆期待很高啦因為就是說賴總統的政見我們很高興他放進去了那邱部長跟呃呂次長已經看到我們上一屆提的版本被大家認為不能所以你們要重新提版本好不好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 856.161, \"end\": 856.281, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 856.281, \"end\": 856.481, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 856.481, \"end\": 856.621, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 856.621, \"end\": 856.702, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 856.702, \"end\": 856.902, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 856.902, \"end\": 857.102, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 857.102, \"end\": 857.923, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 857.923, \"end\": 858.063, \"score\": 0.607}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 858.063, \"end\": 858.223, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 858.223, \"end\": 858.363, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 858.363, \"end\": 858.783, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": 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\"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 866.029, \"end\": 866.769, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"屆\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 866.769, \"end\": 866.97, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 866.97, \"end\": 867.15, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 867.15, \"end\": 867.39, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 867.39, \"end\": 867.59, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 867.59, \"end\": 868.431, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 868.431, \"end\": 868.851, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 868.851, \"end\": 869.031, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 869.031, \"end\": 869.812, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 869.812, \"end\": 869.972, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 869.972, \"end\": 870.432, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 870.432, 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 911.311, \"end\": 911.391, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 911.391, \"end\": 911.552, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 911.552, \"end\": 911.933, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 911.933, \"end\": 912.394, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 912.394, \"end\": 912.414, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,106 --> 00:00:02,207\n今天不管是台大鄭文芳醫師潛逃案\n\n2\n00:00:16,903 --> 00:00:22,125\n或者是設救法那都是我應該可以說是最早關心的而且就是一直追蹤的先從就是這文方案那我要講的是這文方案我們未還委員開始關心的是因為看到台大婦產科\n\n3\n00:00:33,849 --> 00:00:47,878\n一個婦產科而且是台大就是短短兩三年內三大案其中最嚴重的當然就是這個鄭文芳案所以上一次剛好部長去WHO那邊據說去為我們台灣倡議的時候林靜儀次長的時候那當時他就有答應要修醫師懲戒法醫師法等那我今天因為剛聽了幾個委員質詢我想先那個部長可能沒有機會知道\n\n4\n00:01:04,149 --> 00:01:24,730\n這個記者會我開記者會的時候我們已經關心這個案子一年了2022年2月受害者就是來跟我們澄清的時候那當時就是我們開始協助的時候就發現台大醫院非常的消極台大也很消極台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球\n\n5\n00:01:25,610 --> 00:01:45,789\n後來我們是因為法治沒有辦法解決的時候那我才跟受害人而且我們後來發現就是從一個受害人到三個受害人受害人願意站出來開了這個記者會台大醫院終於啟動行政調查一年後也搞了一年了把他解職\n\n6\n00:01:47,131 --> 00:02:02,109\n结果这个医师郑文芳医师很厉害截止之后居然行政调查那大家知道刑事调查是不一样的他以刑事调查说他没事虽然台大医院说他有事他2023年我们听到台大\n\n7\n00:02:03,070 --> 00:02:30,842\n就是居然要復聘這位狼醫教授而且台大醫學院各位知道我們這邊有台大醫院台大醫學院就是要復聘他我們跟受害人再次為什麼要開記者會就是制度出了問題行使制度的人沒有在保障受害者開記者會高聲呼籲台大教評會為了學生也為了受害人不應該復聘那既然台大醫院已經把他解釋了才以31比0高票否決復聘案\n\n8\n00:02:32,122 --> 00:02:53,871\n那這位鄭文芳醫師非常會鑽法律漏洞而且當初台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球的時候台大說這個受害人是業務他是在業務上所以應該性供法台大醫院說他是醫學院所以應該是台大才有性評會你看這怎麼互踢皮球如果我們沒有開記者會台大醫院根本不會進行行政調查\n\n9\n00:02:54,471 --> 00:03:10,956\n那後來我們發現他不是只有三位受害者性侵跟性侵未遂都是一樣的手法他是有六位就是潛在知道是六位那只是三個人願意出來據名去不管是申訴到法庭\n\n10\n00:03:11,496 --> 00:03:36,572\n他們窮盡所有的部分那我要講的事情是說這個過程中真的看到台大跟台大醫院都非常的消極那處理這件事情那今年5月的時候我質詢林靜儀次長那他告訴我們說7月21號會提供修正懲戒辦法的報告務必納入懲戒期間追蹤跟監督機制\n\n11\n00:03:37,352 --> 00:03:54,160\n那剛剛也有非常多人在講這個醫事查詢系統因為之前我並不了解這個醫事查詢系統我剛剛就在林淑芬委員的時候我放鄭文芳的名字進去發現沒有任何結果我放了林靜儀十幾筆資料\n\n12\n00:03:55,500 --> 00:04:21,022\n為什麼鄭文芳在這裡面查不出來我想這就是剛剛很多委員在講的那我長期在教育文化委員會我們教育文化委員會教育部在教師法上弄了多少的心力不管是教師性騷霸凌學生不適應教師的機制應處理得很完善現在處理校長的部分那我真的覺得就是衛福部長期讓大家感覺好像站在醫師這裡而且是\n\n13\n00:04:22,503 --> 00:04:44,370\n站在醫師權益的部分我想我們部長都是出身醫師可以理解可是二職的醫師不應該是我們包庇的對象而且我發現這個醫師法第25條違反醫學倫理性騷病人當然違反醫學倫理傷害病人自主權傷害病人利益可是你們的醫師法裡面沒有講罰則是要\n\n14\n00:04:46,351 --> 00:05:11,856\n多少萬我剛剛現場又看了一次所以看起來醫師法跟就是醫師懲戒機制漏洞百出不只是今天講的這個醫事查詢系統那林靜怡已經答應我7月21號會給我們如何修的報告那我請部長真的要痛切反省啦您也是出身台大醫院對不對那看到台大醫院的消極\n\n15\n00:05:12,876 --> 00:05:39,398\n然後那就是連女醫師出來說職權性騷的時候都沒有積極處理那是不是能夠痛定思痛7月21號給我們的報告要徹底從醫師法跟醫師懲戒條例都要提出你們的版本有承諾要真的把漏洞補上好嗎除了剛剛講的這醫師查詢系統要讓所有的病人所有的人都能夠方便查詢可以嗎\n\n16\n00:05:39,878 --> 00:05:55,885\n好我們剛剛其實有答應一個月之內要把剛剛更多的事情把它完成如果前面林市長有提到7月21號要提供如何修醫師懲戒辦法\n\n17\n00:05:58,526 --> 00:06:10,774\n但是我覺得醫師法也是漏洞百出25條他明明就是違反這個醫界倫理的話就是可以送懲戒可是醫師法本身其他條都有說罰則是什麼可是針對這個違反倫理的部分那居然沒有告訴大家懲戒的內容應該是什麼\n\n18\n00:06:19,079 --> 00:06:34,662\n好我想我們會除了落實醫師懲戒委員會這個工作以外我們如果需要在未來需要再做法律上的處理都可以來做好不好醫師法一併提出您的看法是不是該修因為醫師懲戒條例也是依照醫師法就訂的嘛它是子法嘛那母法的部分我看來看去找不到違反25條這個倫理的部分是什麼\n\n19\n00:06:46,724 --> 00:06:59,857\n那大家老是去動用那個說要就是所謂的要判刑就是確定來讓剛剛大家所講的就是明明醫師性騷病人就是違反倫理了還繼續就就就是在調查期間以性供法來講的話性騷法來講這是職權性騷醫生跟病人的不對等關係那這本來就應該要站離職就這個精神\n\n20\n00:07:10,687 --> 00:07:28,199\n可是因為他不屬於性供法那性騷法是叫各單位自己再去定所以你們是主管機關就應該把它定清楚好嗎第一個就是說調查期間暫離職如果調查不成依照性供法的精神是可以賠償他的就是這個部分就是他當時的薪水好嗎就這幾個醫師查詢系統還有醫師法是不是該修還有醫師懲戒辦法是不是該修7月21號的報告都一併給我們\n\n21\n00:07:40,867 --> 00:08:04,270\n那再來的話社救法也是本席從上一屆開始因為剛剛那個都在講就是所謂的貧窮線那我要講一下2022年12月20號當時包含台大社工系鄭教授等也都是我想呂健德次長在當教授的時候也都非常熟悉那大家的看法是\n\n22\n00:08:05,071 --> 00:08:28,437\n台灣用的不是貧窮線的問題是法規限制過多導致法定貧窮人口過低這點所以我們不要再糾結那當然就是後來民間提出邀請我提出首部我們立法院的民間版那我也那我要跟部長講就是衛福部真的太消極您不是部長的時候你們的錢\n\n23\n00:08:30,598 --> 00:08:34,260\n部長或次長一直拒絕修設就法所以我才會跑去質詢陳建仁行政院長然後陳院長他當場答應了所以衛福部才開始動可是呢2024年6月我在質詢是為什麼衛福部的草案根本沒有解決問題所以你們現在是第二回合再戰了大家知道我的意思\n\n24\n00:08:52,513 --> 00:09:21,773\n不要再拿一個沒有解決問題的版本你現在還沒有提版本可是我看你們今天給我們的報告我真的覺得每個東西都把我們委員提的版本都說要審慎研議都有很多的理由還是沒有真正解決問題那我今天時間的緣故剛剛又在評論這個東西了那我就不就這件事情因為算法都不一樣就是學術問題那我知道呂次長有想法可以給我報告說你們怎麼算的\n\n25\n00:09:22,733 --> 00:09:42,107\n我講這個上面這個就是所謂的國際貧窮線各位看一下這個我們沒有什麼好辯論了台灣依照OECD的國際貧窮線中位數百分之六十有兩百八十萬人在貧窮線以下下面是我們的現階段法定貧窮人口法定貧窮人口\n\n26\n00:09:42,907 --> 00:10:01,015\n那就剛剛講的很多社會新聞的都不在這裡面我們所有很多的福利都是匡這個中低收入只有53萬人280萬人跟53萬人中間差距是200多萬人所以你這個匡不匡大一點不管是地方出中央出\n\n27\n00:10:01,915 --> 00:10:19,143\n就是說既然未來是地方蘇財化法那你中央就把這個線框好嘛每一個因為貧窮喔就是傷害自己生命的悲劇喔你們衛福部都應該要痛在心裡就是說那家戶來講26萬戶被框定法定貧窮人那依照國際貧窮線我們的貧窮線沒問題都是各種條條款款讓他們被排除有196萬戶耶這中間的差距是170幾萬戶耶\n\n28\n00:10:31,868 --> 00:10:36,732\n所以呢那在講日本韓國的話我想次長非常知道日本韓國針對無家者有相關的專法那這次你們只有五條而且把很多東西又丟給內政部什麼住宅法那你這邊如果是特殊法\n\n29\n00:10:47,179 --> 00:11:12,068\n那不然是要叫中央主管機關另訂一個辦法嗎你這裡就應該規範他應有然後內政部就應該優先讓他們可以所以怎麼解決的部分那我真的覺得我們不要再重蹈覆轍上一次衛福部的版本大家不能接受趁著520之前不知道為什麼就出了一個各界不滿意的版本那當然那不是邱部長的責任也不是呂次長的責任那我們現在呂健德次長\n\n30\n00:11:15,009 --> 00:11:40,345\n出身社會福利又說在台中的時候率先關心無家者那是不是這次給我們一個滿意的版本就你們剛剛所講的我先隨便舉一個無審議制我剛剛聽到呂次長在回應的時候有提到我的那個條文你們覺得很不錯那可是你給我們的報告說要放進執法我想講的是如果你覺得審議制度不錯那老人福利法就放在母法嘛\n\n31\n00:11:40,905 --> 00:12:05,183\n那這種重要的東西是不是放在母法有些東西是需要具體討論的不要放在子法好不好那地方政府也不一定認真看子法另外一個家戶合計也是一大問題各位我們在修社福法的時候跟我們前部長也爭辯了很久那當時後來林萬億政委就是讓步我們放了以人為本沒有拿掉家庭\n\n32\n00:12:05,623 --> 00:12:27,191\n可是各位你們今天要跟我們講說民法什麼有撫養義務大家都知道家長撫養小孩就算家長沒有能力的時候社福單位會接手對不對那今天小孩撫養家長請問各位你們家長的錢是你所有的收入都給他嗎也不是嘛你會扣除自己養家的需要剩下的才能夠飼養長輩嗎\n\n33\n00:12:29,392 --> 00:12:51,153\n對不對那可是你家戶計算把它全部都所有的收入都算進去然後說這個沒有子女撫養的家長不符合中低收入戶的資格最後少數個案被迫去告他拿民法去告他未盡然後反而變得家庭悲劇因為子女就是二言相向\n\n34\n00:12:51,894 --> 00:13:21,093\n那這不是我們要看的所以你就不應該只排除家暴跟很少數就應該要實質認定社工跟各方面而且緊記住共同生活的都沒有生活在一起了那我相信以我們台灣人大部分的孝道子女會願意協助他沒有辦法協助就是自己可能也不管什麼原因或者是親子關係很糟糕那我們要解決的不是倫理問題那個是民法去處理的我們要解決的是社會救助\n\n35\n00:13:21,593 --> 00:13:45,356\n我剛講的你空了那麼多兩百多萬人沒有算在裡面而且無家者在街上的這麼多你去日本你有看到人家的車站有像我們台北車站旁邊這麼多嗎那我們說我們現在經濟成長已經超越韓國了我相信你去做民調很多的民眾會願意放寬你們是主管社會福利社會安全這是社會安全的最底層那個\n\n36\n00:13:46,617 --> 00:14:11,838\n那如果有人真的是開豪車幹嘛你就去社工拜訪把他取消資格嘛不要因為這樣框框條條的讓該領的人沒有辦法領到流落街頭好不好那今天日本韓國都有無家者專章我們只有五條還是不夠那我希望我們看到你們衛福部的版本不要跟今天給我們委員的報告一樣每個東西都把我們委員的意見都說我們以謹慎評估沒有幾個答應的\n\n37\n00:14:16,161 --> 00:14:40,620\n那我們就不用修了我想不能這樣子我們剛剛秀芳委員的質詢等一下劉建國委員質詢我相信我們的心聲都是一樣啦我們對這一屆期待很高啦因為就是說賴總統的政見我們很高興他放進去了那邱部長跟呃呂次長已經看到我們上一屆提的版本被大家認為不能所以你們要重新提版本好不好\n\n38\n00:14:41,941 --> 00:15:08,729\n那就這樣子喔一起加油啦衛福部主管的是病人的權益醫師的利益當傷害病人權益的時候不應該站在他們那邊好不好還有這個是弱勢者最最弱勢的赤貧的部分喔好最後一個地下經濟各國都有不要用地下經濟來講虛擬收入打折現在就在做所以不要再我們再重蹈覆轍了好不好那今天細節沒有辦法講完我們再跟你們討論好的好的謝謝\n\n39\n00:15:11,131 --> 00:15:12,414\n好謝謝范雲委員接下來請劉建國委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1106\t2207\t今天不管是台大鄭文芳醫師潛逃案\n16903\t22125\t或者是設救法那都是我應該可以說是最早關心的而且就是一直追蹤的先從就是這文方案那我要講的是這文方案我們未還委員開始關心的是因為看到台大婦產科\n33849\t47878\t一個婦產科而且是台大就是短短兩三年內三大案其中最嚴重的當然就是這個鄭文芳案所以上一次剛好部長去WHO那邊據說去為我們台灣倡議的時候林靜儀次長的時候那當時他就有答應要修醫師懲戒法 醫師法等那我今天因為剛聽了幾個委員質詢我想先那個部長可能沒有機會知道\n64149\t84730\t這個記者會我開記者會的時候我們已經關心這個案子一年了2022年2月受害者就是來跟我們澄清的時候那當時就是我們開始協助的時候就發現台大醫院非常的消極台大也很消極台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球\n85610\t105789\t後來我們是因為法治沒有辦法解決的時候那我才跟受害人而且我們後來發現就是從一個受害人到三個受害人受害人願意站出來開了這個記者會台大醫院終於啟動行政調查一年後也搞了一年了把他解職\n107131\t122109\t结果这个医师郑文芳医师很厉害截止之后居然行政调查那大家知道刑事调查是不一样的他以刑事调查说他没事虽然台大医院说他有事他2023年我们听到台大\n123070\t150842\t就是居然要復聘這位狼醫教授而且台大醫學院各位知道我們這邊有台大醫院台大醫學院就是要復聘他我們跟受害人再次為什麼要開記者會就是制度出了問題行使制度的人沒有在保障受害者開記者會高聲呼籲台大教評會為了學生也為了受害人不應該復聘那既然台大醫院已經把他解釋了才以31比0高票否決復聘案\n152122\t173871\t那這位鄭文芳醫師非常會鑽法律漏洞而且當初台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球的時候台大說這個受害人是業務他是在業務上所以應該性供法台大醫院說他是醫學院所以應該是台大才有性評會你看這怎麼互踢皮球如果我們沒有開記者會台大醫院根本不會進行行政調查\n174471\t190956\t那後來我們發現他不是只有三位受害者性侵跟性侵未遂都是一樣的手法他是有六位就是潛在知道是六位那只是三個人願意出來據名去不管是申訴到法庭\n191496\t216572\t他們窮盡所有的部分那我要講的事情是說這個過程中真的看到台大跟台大醫院都非常的消極那處理這件事情那今年5月的時候我質詢林靜儀次長那他告訴我們說7月21號會提供修正懲戒辦法的報告務必納入懲戒期間追蹤跟監督機制\n217352\t234160\t那剛剛也有非常多人在講這個醫事查詢系統因為之前我並不了解這個醫事查詢系統我剛剛就在林淑芬委員的時候我放鄭文芳的名字進去發現沒有任何結果我放了林靜儀十幾筆資料\n235500\t261022\t為什麼鄭文芳在這裡面查不出來我想這就是剛剛很多委員在講的那我長期在教育文化委員會我們教育文化委員會教育部在教師法上弄了多少的心力不管是教師性騷霸凌學生不適應教師的機制應處理得很完善現在處理校長的部分那我真的覺得就是衛福部長期讓大家感覺好像站在醫師這裡而且是\n262503\t284370\t站在醫師權益的部分我想我們部長都是出身醫師可以理解可是二職的醫師不應該是我們包庇的對象而且我發現這個醫師法第25條違反醫學倫理性騷病人當然違反醫學倫理傷害病人自主權傷害病人利益可是你們的醫師法裡面沒有講罰則是要\n286351\t311856\t多少萬我剛剛現場又看了一次所以看起來醫師法跟就是醫師懲戒機制漏洞百出不只是今天講的這個醫事查詢系統那林靜怡已經答應我7月21號會給我們如何修的報告那我請部長真的要痛切反省啦您也是出身台大醫院對不對那看到台大醫院的消極\n312876\t339398\t然後那就是連女醫師出來說職權性騷的時候都沒有積極處理那是不是能夠痛定思痛7月21號給我們的報告要徹底從醫師法跟醫師懲戒條例都要提出你們的版本有承諾要真的把漏洞補上好嗎除了剛剛講的這醫師查詢系統要讓所有的病人所有的人都能夠方便查詢可以嗎\n339878\t355885\t好 我們剛剛其實有答應一個月之內要把剛剛更多的事情把它完成如果前面林市長有提到7月21號要提供如何修醫師懲戒辦法\n358526\t370774\t但是我覺得醫師法也是漏洞百出25條他明明就是違反這個醫界倫理的話就是可以送懲戒可是醫師法本身其他條都有說罰則是什麼可是針對這個違反倫理的部分那居然沒有告訴大家懲戒的內容應該是什麼\n379079\t394662\t好 我想我們會除了落實醫師懲戒委員會這個工作以外我們如果需要在未來需要再做法律上的處理都可以來做好不好 醫師法一併提出您的看法是不是該修因為醫師懲戒條例也是依照醫師法就訂的嘛它是子法嘛 那母法的部分我看來看去找不到違反25條這個倫理的部分是什麼\n406724\t419857\t那大家老是去動用那個說要就是所謂的要判刑就是確定來讓剛剛大家所講的就是明明醫師性騷病人就是違反倫理了還繼續就就就是在調查期間以性供法來講的話性騷法來講這是職權性騷醫生跟病人的不對等關係那這本來就應該要站離職就這個精神\n430687\t448199\t可是因為他不屬於性供法那性騷法是叫各單位自己再去定所以你們是主管機關就應該把它定清楚好嗎第一個就是說調查期間暫離職如果調查不成依照性供法的精神是可以賠償他的就是這個部分就是他當時的薪水好嗎就這幾個醫師查詢系統還有醫師法是不是該修還有醫師懲戒辦法是不是該修7月21號的報告都一併給我們\n460867\t484270\t那再來的話社救法也是本席從上一屆開始因為剛剛那個都在講就是所謂的貧窮線那我要講一下2022年12月20號當時包含台大社工系鄭教授等也都是我想呂健德次長在當教授的時候也都非常熟悉那大家的看法是\n485071\t508437\t台灣用的不是貧窮線的問題是法規限制過多導致法定貧窮人口過低這點所以我們不要再糾結那當然就是後來民間提出邀請我提出首部我們立法院的民間版那我也那我要跟部長講就是衛福部真的太消極您不是部長的時候你們的錢\n510598\t514260\t部長或次長一直拒絕修設就法所以我才會跑去質詢陳建仁行政院長然後陳院長他當場答應了所以衛福部才開始動可是呢2024年6月我在質詢是為什麼衛福部的草案根本沒有解決問題所以你們現在是第二回合再戰了大家知道我的意思\n532513\t561773\t不要再拿一個沒有解決問題的版本你現在還沒有提版本可是我看你們今天給我們的報告我真的覺得每個東西都把我們委員提的版本都說要審慎研議都有很多的理由還是沒有真正解決問題那我今天時間的緣故剛剛又在評論這個東西了那我就不就這件事情因為算法都不一樣就是學術問題那我知道呂次長有想法可以給我報告說你們怎麼算的\n562733\t582107\t我講這個上面這個就是所謂的國際貧窮線各位看一下這個我們沒有什麼好辯論了台灣依照OECD的國際貧窮線中位數百分之六十有兩百八十萬人在貧窮線以下下面是我們的現階段法定貧窮人口法定貧窮人口\n582907\t601015\t那就剛剛講的很多社會新聞的都不在這裡面我們所有很多的福利都是匡這個中低收入只有53萬人280萬人跟53萬人中間差距是200多萬人所以你這個匡不匡大一點不管是地方出中央出\n601915\t619143\t就是說既然未來是地方蘇財化法那你中央就把這個線框好嘛每一個因為貧窮喔就是傷害自己生命的悲劇喔你們衛福部都應該要痛在心裡就是說那家戶來講26萬戶被框定法定貧窮人那依照國際貧窮線我們的貧窮線沒問題都是各種條條款款讓他們被排除有196萬戶耶這中間的差距是170幾萬戶耶\n631868\t636732\t所以呢那在講日本韓國的話我想次長非常知道日本韓國針對無家者有相關的專法那這次你們只有五條而且把很多東西又丟給內政部什麼住宅法那你這邊如果是特殊法\n647179\t672068\t那不然是要叫中央主管機關另訂一個辦法嗎你這裡就應該規範他應有然後內政部就應該優先讓他們可以所以怎麼解決的部分那我真的覺得我們不要再重蹈覆轍上一次衛福部的版本大家不能接受趁著520之前不知道為什麼就出了一個各界不滿意的版本那當然那不是邱部長的責任也不是呂次長的責任那我們現在呂健德次長\n675009\t700345\t出身社會福利又說在台中的時候率先關心無家者那是不是這次給我們一個滿意的版本就你們剛剛所講的我先隨便舉一個無審議制我剛剛聽到呂次長在回應的時候有提到我的那個條文你們覺得很不錯那可是你給我們的報告說要放進執法我想講的是如果你覺得審議制度不錯那老人福利法就放在母法嘛\n700905\t725183\t那這種重要的東西是不是放在母法有些東西是需要具體討論的不要放在子法好不好那地方政府也不一定認真看子法另外一個家戶合計也是一大問題各位我們在修社福法的時候跟我們前部長也爭辯了很久那當時後來林萬億政委就是讓步我們放了以人為本沒有拿掉家庭\n725623\t747191\t可是各位你們今天要跟我們講說民法什麼有撫養義務大家都知道家長撫養小孩就算家長沒有能力的時候社福單位會接手對不對那今天小孩撫養家長請問各位你們家長的錢是你所有的收入都給他嗎也不是嘛你會扣除自己養家的需要剩下的才能夠飼養長輩嗎\n749392\t771153\t對不對 那可是你家戶計算把它全部都所有的收入都算進去然後說這個沒有子女撫養的家長不符合中低收入戶的資格最後少數個案被迫去告他拿民法去告他 未盡然後反而變得家庭悲劇因為子女就是二言相向\n771894\t801093\t那這不是我們要看的所以你就不應該只排除家暴跟很少數就應該要實質認定社工跟各方面而且緊記住共同生活的都沒有生活在一起了那我相信以我們台灣人大部分的孝道子女會願意協助他沒有辦法協助就是自己可能也不管什麼原因或者是親子關係很糟糕那我們要解決的不是倫理問題那個是民法去處理的我們要解決的是社會救助\n801593\t825356\t我剛講的 你空了那麼多 兩百多萬人沒有算在裡面而且無家者在街上的這麼多你去日本你有看到人家的車站有像我們台北車站旁邊這麼多嗎那我們說我們現在經濟成長已經超越韓國了我相信你去做民調 很多的民眾會願意放寬你們是主管社會福利 社會安全 這是社會安全的最底層那個\n826617\t851838\t那如果有人真的是開豪車幹嘛你就去社工拜訪把他取消資格嘛不要因為這樣框框條條的讓該領的人沒有辦法領到流落街頭好不好那今天日本韓國都有無家者專章我們只有五條還是不夠那我希望我們看到你們衛福部的版本不要跟今天給我們委員的報告一樣每個東西都把我們委員的意見都說我們以謹慎評估沒有幾個答應的\n856161\t880620\t那我們就不用修了我想不能這樣子我們剛剛秀芳委員的質詢等一下劉建國委員質詢我相信我們的心聲都是一樣啦我們對這一屆期待很高啦因為就是說賴總統的政見我們很高興他放進去了那邱部長跟呃呂次長已經看到我們上一屆提的版本被大家認為不能所以你們要重新提版本好不好\n881941\t908729\t那就這樣子喔一起加油啦衛福部主管的是病人的權益醫師的利益當傷害病人權益的時候不應該站在他們那邊好不好還有這個是弱勢者最最弱勢的赤貧的部分喔好最後一個地下經濟各國都有不要用地下經濟來講虛擬收入打折現在就在做所以不要再我們再重蹈覆轍了好不好那今天細節沒有辦法講完我們再跟你們討論好的好的謝謝\n911131\t912414\t好 謝謝范雲委員接下來請劉建國委員\n","txt":"今天不管是台大鄭文芳醫師潛逃案\n或者是設救法那都是我應該可以說是最早關心的而且就是一直追蹤的先從就是這文方案那我要講的是這文方案我們未還委員開始關心的是因為看到台大婦產科\n一個婦產科而且是台大就是短短兩三年內三大案其中最嚴重的當然就是這個鄭文芳案所以上一次剛好部長去WHO那邊據說去為我們台灣倡議的時候林靜儀次長的時候那當時他就有答應要修醫師懲戒法 醫師法等那我今天因為剛聽了幾個委員質詢我想先那個部長可能沒有機會知道\n這個記者會我開記者會的時候我們已經關心這個案子一年了2022年2月受害者就是來跟我們澄清的時候那當時就是我們開始協助的時候就發現台大醫院非常的消極台大也很消極台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球\n後來我們是因為法治沒有辦法解決的時候那我才跟受害人而且我們後來發現就是從一個受害人到三個受害人受害人願意站出來開了這個記者會台大醫院終於啟動行政調查一年後也搞了一年了把他解職\n结果这个医师郑文芳医师很厉害截止之后居然行政调查那大家知道刑事调查是不一样的他以刑事调查说他没事虽然台大医院说他有事他2023年我们听到台大\n就是居然要復聘這位狼醫教授而且台大醫學院各位知道我們這邊有台大醫院台大醫學院就是要復聘他我們跟受害人再次為什麼要開記者會就是制度出了問題行使制度的人沒有在保障受害者開記者會高聲呼籲台大教評會為了學生也為了受害人不應該復聘那既然台大醫院已經把他解釋了才以31比0高票否決復聘案\n那這位鄭文芳醫師非常會鑽法律漏洞而且當初台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球的時候台大說這個受害人是業務他是在業務上所以應該性供法台大醫院說他是醫學院所以應該是台大才有性評會你看這怎麼互踢皮球如果我們沒有開記者會台大醫院根本不會進行行政調查\n那後來我們發現他不是只有三位受害者性侵跟性侵未遂都是一樣的手法他是有六位就是潛在知道是六位那只是三個人願意出來據名去不管是申訴到法庭\n他們窮盡所有的部分那我要講的事情是說這個過程中真的看到台大跟台大醫院都非常的消極那處理這件事情那今年5月的時候我質詢林靜儀次長那他告訴我們說7月21號會提供修正懲戒辦法的報告務必納入懲戒期間追蹤跟監督機制\n那剛剛也有非常多人在講這個醫事查詢系統因為之前我並不了解這個醫事查詢系統我剛剛就在林淑芬委員的時候我放鄭文芳的名字進去發現沒有任何結果我放了林靜儀十幾筆資料\n為什麼鄭文芳在這裡面查不出來我想這就是剛剛很多委員在講的那我長期在教育文化委員會我們教育文化委員會教育部在教師法上弄了多少的心力不管是教師性騷霸凌學生不適應教師的機制應處理得很完善現在處理校長的部分那我真的覺得就是衛福部長期讓大家感覺好像站在醫師這裡而且是\n站在醫師權益的部分我想我們部長都是出身醫師可以理解可是二職的醫師不應該是我們包庇的對象而且我發現這個醫師法第25條違反醫學倫理性騷病人當然違反醫學倫理傷害病人自主權傷害病人利益可是你們的醫師法裡面沒有講罰則是要\n多少萬我剛剛現場又看了一次所以看起來醫師法跟就是醫師懲戒機制漏洞百出不只是今天講的這個醫事查詢系統那林靜怡已經答應我7月21號會給我們如何修的報告那我請部長真的要痛切反省啦您也是出身台大醫院對不對那看到台大醫院的消極\n然後那就是連女醫師出來說職權性騷的時候都沒有積極處理那是不是能夠痛定思痛7月21號給我們的報告要徹底從醫師法跟醫師懲戒條例都要提出你們的版本有承諾要真的把漏洞補上好嗎除了剛剛講的這醫師查詢系統要讓所有的病人所有的人都能夠方便查詢可以嗎\n好 我們剛剛其實有答應一個月之內要把剛剛更多的事情把它完成如果前面林市長有提到7月21號要提供如何修醫師懲戒辦法\n但是我覺得醫師法也是漏洞百出25條他明明就是違反這個醫界倫理的話就是可以送懲戒可是醫師法本身其他條都有說罰則是什麼可是針對這個違反倫理的部分那居然沒有告訴大家懲戒的內容應該是什麼\n好 我想我們會除了落實醫師懲戒委員會這個工作以外我們如果需要在未來需要再做法律上的處理都可以來做好不好 醫師法一併提出您的看法是不是該修因為醫師懲戒條例也是依照醫師法就訂的嘛它是子法嘛 那母法的部分我看來看去找不到違反25條這個倫理的部分是什麼\n那大家老是去動用那個說要就是所謂的要判刑就是確定來讓剛剛大家所講的就是明明醫師性騷病人就是違反倫理了還繼續就就就是在調查期間以性供法來講的話性騷法來講這是職權性騷醫生跟病人的不對等關係那這本來就應該要站離職就這個精神\n可是因為他不屬於性供法那性騷法是叫各單位自己再去定所以你們是主管機關就應該把它定清楚好嗎第一個就是說調查期間暫離職如果調查不成依照性供法的精神是可以賠償他的就是這個部分就是他當時的薪水好嗎就這幾個醫師查詢系統還有醫師法是不是該修還有醫師懲戒辦法是不是該修7月21號的報告都一併給我們\n那再來的話社救法也是本席從上一屆開始因為剛剛那個都在講就是所謂的貧窮線那我要講一下2022年12月20號當時包含台大社工系鄭教授等也都是我想呂健德次長在當教授的時候也都非常熟悉那大家的看法是\n台灣用的不是貧窮線的問題是法規限制過多導致法定貧窮人口過低這點所以我們不要再糾結那當然就是後來民間提出邀請我提出首部我們立法院的民間版那我也那我要跟部長講就是衛福部真的太消極您不是部長的時候你們的錢\n部長或次長一直拒絕修設就法所以我才會跑去質詢陳建仁行政院長然後陳院長他當場答應了所以衛福部才開始動可是呢2024年6月我在質詢是為什麼衛福部的草案根本沒有解決問題所以你們現在是第二回合再戰了大家知道我的意思\n不要再拿一個沒有解決問題的版本你現在還沒有提版本可是我看你們今天給我們的報告我真的覺得每個東西都把我們委員提的版本都說要審慎研議都有很多的理由還是沒有真正解決問題那我今天時間的緣故剛剛又在評論這個東西了那我就不就這件事情因為算法都不一樣就是學術問題那我知道呂次長有想法可以給我報告說你們怎麼算的\n我講這個上面這個就是所謂的國際貧窮線各位看一下這個我們沒有什麼好辯論了台灣依照OECD的國際貧窮線中位數百分之六十有兩百八十萬人在貧窮線以下下面是我們的現階段法定貧窮人口法定貧窮人口\n那就剛剛講的很多社會新聞的都不在這裡面我們所有很多的福利都是匡這個中低收入只有53萬人280萬人跟53萬人中間差距是200多萬人所以你這個匡不匡大一點不管是地方出中央出\n就是說既然未來是地方蘇財化法那你中央就把這個線框好嘛每一個因為貧窮喔就是傷害自己生命的悲劇喔你們衛福部都應該要痛在心裡就是說那家戶來講26萬戶被框定法定貧窮人那依照國際貧窮線我們的貧窮線沒問題都是各種條條款款讓他們被排除有196萬戶耶這中間的差距是170幾萬戶耶\n所以呢那在講日本韓國的話我想次長非常知道日本韓國針對無家者有相關的專法那這次你們只有五條而且把很多東西又丟給內政部什麼住宅法那你這邊如果是特殊法\n那不然是要叫中央主管機關另訂一個辦法嗎你這裡就應該規範他應有然後內政部就應該優先讓他們可以所以怎麼解決的部分那我真的覺得我們不要再重蹈覆轍上一次衛福部的版本大家不能接受趁著520之前不知道為什麼就出了一個各界不滿意的版本那當然那不是邱部長的責任也不是呂次長的責任那我們現在呂健德次長\n出身社會福利又說在台中的時候率先關心無家者那是不是這次給我們一個滿意的版本就你們剛剛所講的我先隨便舉一個無審議制我剛剛聽到呂次長在回應的時候有提到我的那個條文你們覺得很不錯那可是你給我們的報告說要放進執法我想講的是如果你覺得審議制度不錯那老人福利法就放在母法嘛\n那這種重要的東西是不是放在母法有些東西是需要具體討論的不要放在子法好不好那地方政府也不一定認真看子法另外一個家戶合計也是一大問題各位我們在修社福法的時候跟我們前部長也爭辯了很久那當時後來林萬億政委就是讓步我們放了以人為本沒有拿掉家庭\n可是各位你們今天要跟我們講說民法什麼有撫養義務大家都知道家長撫養小孩就算家長沒有能力的時候社福單位會接手對不對那今天小孩撫養家長請問各位你們家長的錢是你所有的收入都給他嗎也不是嘛你會扣除自己養家的需要剩下的才能夠飼養長輩嗎\n對不對 那可是你家戶計算把它全部都所有的收入都算進去然後說這個沒有子女撫養的家長不符合中低收入戶的資格最後少數個案被迫去告他拿民法去告他 未盡然後反而變得家庭悲劇因為子女就是二言相向\n那這不是我們要看的所以你就不應該只排除家暴跟很少數就應該要實質認定社工跟各方面而且緊記住共同生活的都沒有生活在一起了那我相信以我們台灣人大部分的孝道子女會願意協助他沒有辦法協助就是自己可能也不管什麼原因或者是親子關係很糟糕那我們要解決的不是倫理問題那個是民法去處理的我們要解決的是社會救助\n我剛講的 你空了那麼多 兩百多萬人沒有算在裡面而且無家者在街上的這麼多你去日本你有看到人家的車站有像我們台北車站旁邊這麼多嗎那我們說我們現在經濟成長已經超越韓國了我相信你去做民調 很多的民眾會願意放寬你們是主管社會福利 社會安全 這是社會安全的最底層那個\n那如果有人真的是開豪車幹嘛你就去社工拜訪把他取消資格嘛不要因為這樣框框條條的讓該領的人沒有辦法領到流落街頭好不好那今天日本韓國都有無家者專章我們只有五條還是不夠那我希望我們看到你們衛福部的版本不要跟今天給我們委員的報告一樣每個東西都把我們委員的意見都說我們以謹慎評估沒有幾個答應的\n那我們就不用修了我想不能這樣子我們剛剛秀芳委員的質詢等一下劉建國委員質詢我相信我們的心聲都是一樣啦我們對這一屆期待很高啦因為就是說賴總統的政見我們很高興他放進去了那邱部長跟呃呂次長已經看到我們上一屆提的版本被大家認為不能所以你們要重新提版本好不好\n那就這樣子喔一起加油啦衛福部主管的是病人的權益醫師的利益當傷害病人權益的時候不應該站在他們那邊好不好還有這個是弱勢者最最弱勢的赤貧的部分喔好最後一個地下經濟各國都有不要用地下經濟來講虛擬收入打折現在就在做所以不要再我們再重蹈覆轍了好不好那今天細節沒有辦法講完我們再跟你們討論好的好的謝謝\n好 謝謝范雲委員接下來請劉建國委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.106 --> 00:02.207\n今天不管是台大鄭文芳醫師潛逃案\n\n00:16.903 --> 00:22.125\n或者是設救法那都是我應該可以說是最早關心的而且就是一直追蹤的先從就是這文方案那我要講的是這文方案我們未還委員開始關心的是因為看到台大婦產科\n\n00:33.849 --> 00:47.878\n一個婦產科而且是台大就是短短兩三年內三大案其中最嚴重的當然就是這個鄭文芳案所以上一次剛好部長去WHO那邊據說去為我們台灣倡議的時候林靜儀次長的時候那當時他就有答應要修醫師懲戒法醫師法等那我今天因為剛聽了幾個委員質詢我想先那個部長可能沒有機會知道\n\n01:04.149 --> 01:24.730\n這個記者會我開記者會的時候我們已經關心這個案子一年了2022年2月受害者就是來跟我們澄清的時候那當時就是我們開始協助的時候就發現台大醫院非常的消極台大也很消極台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球\n\n01:25.610 --> 01:45.789\n後來我們是因為法治沒有辦法解決的時候那我才跟受害人而且我們後來發現就是從一個受害人到三個受害人受害人願意站出來開了這個記者會台大醫院終於啟動行政調查一年後也搞了一年了把他解職\n\n01:47.131 --> 02:02.109\n结果这个医师郑文芳医师很厉害截止之后居然行政调查那大家知道刑事调查是不一样的他以刑事调查说他没事虽然台大医院说他有事他2023年我们听到台大\n\n02:03.070 --> 02:30.842\n就是居然要復聘這位狼醫教授而且台大醫學院各位知道我們這邊有台大醫院台大醫學院就是要復聘他我們跟受害人再次為什麼要開記者會就是制度出了問題行使制度的人沒有在保障受害者開記者會高聲呼籲台大教評會為了學生也為了受害人不應該復聘那既然台大醫院已經把他解釋了才以31比0高票否決復聘案\n\n02:32.122 --> 02:53.871\n那這位鄭文芳醫師非常會鑽法律漏洞而且當初台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球的時候台大說這個受害人是業務他是在業務上所以應該性供法台大醫院說他是醫學院所以應該是台大才有性評會你看這怎麼互踢皮球如果我們沒有開記者會台大醫院根本不會進行行政調查\n\n02:54.471 --> 03:10.956\n那後來我們發現他不是只有三位受害者性侵跟性侵未遂都是一樣的手法他是有六位就是潛在知道是六位那只是三個人願意出來據名去不管是申訴到法庭\n\n03:11.496 --> 03:36.572\n他們窮盡所有的部分那我要講的事情是說這個過程中真的看到台大跟台大醫院都非常的消極那處理這件事情那今年5月的時候我質詢林靜儀次長那他告訴我們說7月21號會提供修正懲戒辦法的報告務必納入懲戒期間追蹤跟監督機制\n\n03:37.352 --> 03:54.160\n那剛剛也有非常多人在講這個醫事查詢系統因為之前我並不了解這個醫事查詢系統我剛剛就在林淑芬委員的時候我放鄭文芳的名字進去發現沒有任何結果我放了林靜儀十幾筆資料\n\n03:55.500 --> 04:21.022\n為什麼鄭文芳在這裡面查不出來我想這就是剛剛很多委員在講的那我長期在教育文化委員會我們教育文化委員會教育部在教師法上弄了多少的心力不管是教師性騷霸凌學生不適應教師的機制應處理得很完善現在處理校長的部分那我真的覺得就是衛福部長期讓大家感覺好像站在醫師這裡而且是\n\n04:22.503 --> 04:44.370\n站在醫師權益的部分我想我們部長都是出身醫師可以理解可是二職的醫師不應該是我們包庇的對象而且我發現這個醫師法第25條違反醫學倫理性騷病人當然違反醫學倫理傷害病人自主權傷害病人利益可是你們的醫師法裡面沒有講罰則是要\n\n04:46.351 --> 05:11.856\n多少萬我剛剛現場又看了一次所以看起來醫師法跟就是醫師懲戒機制漏洞百出不只是今天講的這個醫事查詢系統那林靜怡已經答應我7月21號會給我們如何修的報告那我請部長真的要痛切反省啦您也是出身台大醫院對不對那看到台大醫院的消極\n\n05:12.876 --> 05:39.398\n然後那就是連女醫師出來說職權性騷的時候都沒有積極處理那是不是能夠痛定思痛7月21號給我們的報告要徹底從醫師法跟醫師懲戒條例都要提出你們的版本有承諾要真的把漏洞補上好嗎除了剛剛講的這醫師查詢系統要讓所有的病人所有的人都能夠方便查詢可以嗎\n\n05:39.878 --> 05:55.885\n好我們剛剛其實有答應一個月之內要把剛剛更多的事情把它完成如果前面林市長有提到7月21號要提供如何修醫師懲戒辦法\n\n05:58.526 --> 06:10.774\n但是我覺得醫師法也是漏洞百出25條他明明就是違反這個醫界倫理的話就是可以送懲戒可是醫師法本身其他條都有說罰則是什麼可是針對這個違反倫理的部分那居然沒有告訴大家懲戒的內容應該是什麼\n\n06:19.079 --> 06:34.662\n好我想我們會除了落實醫師懲戒委員會這個工作以外我們如果需要在未來需要再做法律上的處理都可以來做好不好醫師法一併提出您的看法是不是該修因為醫師懲戒條例也是依照醫師法就訂的嘛它是子法嘛那母法的部分我看來看去找不到違反25條這個倫理的部分是什麼\n\n06:46.724 --> 06:59.857\n那大家老是去動用那個說要就是所謂的要判刑就是確定來讓剛剛大家所講的就是明明醫師性騷病人就是違反倫理了還繼續就就就是在調查期間以性供法來講的話性騷法來講這是職權性騷醫生跟病人的不對等關係那這本來就應該要站離職就這個精神\n\n07:10.687 --> 07:28.199\n可是因為他不屬於性供法那性騷法是叫各單位自己再去定所以你們是主管機關就應該把它定清楚好嗎第一個就是說調查期間暫離職如果調查不成依照性供法的精神是可以賠償他的就是這個部分就是他當時的薪水好嗎就這幾個醫師查詢系統還有醫師法是不是該修還有醫師懲戒辦法是不是該修7月21號的報告都一併給我們\n\n07:40.867 --> 08:04.270\n那再來的話社救法也是本席從上一屆開始因為剛剛那個都在講就是所謂的貧窮線那我要講一下2022年12月20號當時包含台大社工系鄭教授等也都是我想呂健德次長在當教授的時候也都非常熟悉那大家的看法是\n\n08:05.071 --> 08:28.437\n台灣用的不是貧窮線的問題是法規限制過多導致法定貧窮人口過低這點所以我們不要再糾結那當然就是後來民間提出邀請我提出首部我們立法院的民間版那我也那我要跟部長講就是衛福部真的太消極您不是部長的時候你們的錢\n\n08:30.598 --> 08:34.260\n部長或次長一直拒絕修設就法所以我才會跑去質詢陳建仁行政院長然後陳院長他當場答應了所以衛福部才開始動可是呢2024年6月我在質詢是為什麼衛福部的草案根本沒有解決問題所以你們現在是第二回合再戰了大家知道我的意思\n\n08:52.513 --> 09:21.773\n不要再拿一個沒有解決問題的版本你現在還沒有提版本可是我看你們今天給我們的報告我真的覺得每個東西都把我們委員提的版本都說要審慎研議都有很多的理由還是沒有真正解決問題那我今天時間的緣故剛剛又在評論這個東西了那我就不就這件事情因為算法都不一樣就是學術問題那我知道呂次長有想法可以給我報告說你們怎麼算的\n\n09:22.733 --> 09:42.107\n我講這個上面這個就是所謂的國際貧窮線各位看一下這個我們沒有什麼好辯論了台灣依照OECD的國際貧窮線中位數百分之六十有兩百八十萬人在貧窮線以下下面是我們的現階段法定貧窮人口法定貧窮人口\n\n09:42.907 --> 10:01.015\n那就剛剛講的很多社會新聞的都不在這裡面我們所有很多的福利都是匡這個中低收入只有53萬人280萬人跟53萬人中間差距是200多萬人所以你這個匡不匡大一點不管是地方出中央出\n\n10:01.915 --> 10:19.143\n就是說既然未來是地方蘇財化法那你中央就把這個線框好嘛每一個因為貧窮喔就是傷害自己生命的悲劇喔你們衛福部都應該要痛在心裡就是說那家戶來講26萬戶被框定法定貧窮人那依照國際貧窮線我們的貧窮線沒問題都是各種條條款款讓他們被排除有196萬戶耶這中間的差距是170幾萬戶耶\n\n10:31.868 --> 10:36.732\n所以呢那在講日本韓國的話我想次長非常知道日本韓國針對無家者有相關的專法那這次你們只有五條而且把很多東西又丟給內政部什麼住宅法那你這邊如果是特殊法\n\n10:47.179 --> 11:12.068\n那不然是要叫中央主管機關另訂一個辦法嗎你這裡就應該規範他應有然後內政部就應該優先讓他們可以所以怎麼解決的部分那我真的覺得我們不要再重蹈覆轍上一次衛福部的版本大家不能接受趁著520之前不知道為什麼就出了一個各界不滿意的版本那當然那不是邱部長的責任也不是呂次長的責任那我們現在呂健德次長\n\n11:15.009 --> 11:40.345\n出身社會福利又說在台中的時候率先關心無家者那是不是這次給我們一個滿意的版本就你們剛剛所講的我先隨便舉一個無審議制我剛剛聽到呂次長在回應的時候有提到我的那個條文你們覺得很不錯那可是你給我們的報告說要放進執法我想講的是如果你覺得審議制度不錯那老人福利法就放在母法嘛\n\n11:40.905 --> 12:05.183\n那這種重要的東西是不是放在母法有些東西是需要具體討論的不要放在子法好不好那地方政府也不一定認真看子法另外一個家戶合計也是一大問題各位我們在修社福法的時候跟我們前部長也爭辯了很久那當時後來林萬億政委就是讓步我們放了以人為本沒有拿掉家庭\n\n12:05.623 --> 12:27.191\n可是各位你們今天要跟我們講說民法什麼有撫養義務大家都知道家長撫養小孩就算家長沒有能力的時候社福單位會接手對不對那今天小孩撫養家長請問各位你們家長的錢是你所有的收入都給他嗎也不是嘛你會扣除自己養家的需要剩下的才能夠飼養長輩嗎\n\n12:29.392 --> 12:51.153\n對不對那可是你家戶計算把它全部都所有的收入都算進去然後說這個沒有子女撫養的家長不符合中低收入戶的資格最後少數個案被迫去告他拿民法去告他未盡然後反而變得家庭悲劇因為子女就是二言相向\n\n12:51.894 --> 13:21.093\n那這不是我們要看的所以你就不應該只排除家暴跟很少數就應該要實質認定社工跟各方面而且緊記住共同生活的都沒有生活在一起了那我相信以我們台灣人大部分的孝道子女會願意協助他沒有辦法協助就是自己可能也不管什麼原因或者是親子關係很糟糕那我們要解決的不是倫理問題那個是民法去處理的我們要解決的是社會救助\n\n13:21.593 --> 13:45.356\n我剛講的你空了那麼多兩百多萬人沒有算在裡面而且無家者在街上的這麼多你去日本你有看到人家的車站有像我們台北車站旁邊這麼多嗎那我們說我們現在經濟成長已經超越韓國了我相信你去做民調很多的民眾會願意放寬你們是主管社會福利社會安全這是社會安全的最底層那個\n\n13:46.617 --> 14:11.838\n那如果有人真的是開豪車幹嘛你就去社工拜訪把他取消資格嘛不要因為這樣框框條條的讓該領的人沒有辦法領到流落街頭好不好那今天日本韓國都有無家者專章我們只有五條還是不夠那我希望我們看到你們衛福部的版本不要跟今天給我們委員的報告一樣每個東西都把我們委員的意見都說我們以謹慎評估沒有幾個答應的\n\n14:16.161 --> 14:40.620\n那我們就不用修了我想不能這樣子我們剛剛秀芳委員的質詢等一下劉建國委員質詢我相信我們的心聲都是一樣啦我們對這一屆期待很高啦因為就是說賴總統的政見我們很高興他放進去了那邱部長跟呃呂次長已經看到我們上一屆提的版本被大家認為不能所以你們要重新提版本好不好\n\n14:41.941 --> 15:08.729\n那就這樣子喔一起加油啦衛福部主管的是病人的權益醫師的利益當傷害病人權益的時候不應該站在他們那邊好不好還有這個是弱勢者最最弱勢的赤貧的部分喔好最後一個地下經濟各國都有不要用地下經濟來講虛擬收入打折現在就在做所以不要再我們再重蹈覆轍了好不好那今天細節沒有辦法講完我們再跟你們討論好的好的謝謝\n\n15:11.131 --> 15:12.414\n好謝謝范雲委員接下來請劉建國委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.106,"end":2.207,"text":"今天不管是台大鄭文芳醫師潛逃案"},{"start":16.903,"end":22.125,"text":"或者是設救法那都是我應該可以說是最早關心的而且就是一直追蹤的先從就是這文方案那我要講的是這文方案我們未還委員開始關心的是因為看到台大婦產科"},{"start":33.849,"end":47.878,"text":"一個婦產科而且是台大就是短短兩三年內三大案其中最嚴重的當然就是這個鄭文芳案所以上一次剛好部長去WHO那邊據說去為我們台灣倡議的時候林靜儀次長的時候那當時他就有答應要修醫師懲戒法 醫師法等那我今天因為剛聽了幾個委員質詢我想先那個部長可能沒有機會知道"},{"start":64.149,"end":84.73,"text":"這個記者會我開記者會的時候我們已經關心這個案子一年了2022年2月受害者就是來跟我們澄清的時候那當時就是我們開始協助的時候就發現台大醫院非常的消極台大也很消極台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球"},{"start":85.61,"end":105.789,"text":"後來我們是因為法治沒有辦法解決的時候那我才跟受害人而且我們後來發現就是從一個受害人到三個受害人受害人願意站出來開了這個記者會台大醫院終於啟動行政調查一年後也搞了一年了把他解職"},{"start":107.131,"end":122.109,"text":"结果这个医师郑文芳医师很厉害截止之后居然行政调查那大家知道刑事调查是不一样的他以刑事调查说他没事虽然台大医院说他有事他2023年我们听到台大"},{"start":123.07,"end":150.842,"text":"就是居然要復聘這位狼醫教授而且台大醫學院各位知道我們這邊有台大醫院台大醫學院就是要復聘他我們跟受害人再次為什麼要開記者會就是制度出了問題行使制度的人沒有在保障受害者開記者會高聲呼籲台大教評會為了學生也為了受害人不應該復聘那既然台大醫院已經把他解釋了才以31比0高票否決復聘案"},{"start":152.122,"end":173.871,"text":"那這位鄭文芳醫師非常會鑽法律漏洞而且當初台大跟台大醫院互踢皮球的時候台大說這個受害人是業務他是在業務上所以應該性供法台大醫院說他是醫學院所以應該是台大才有性評會你看這怎麼互踢皮球如果我們沒有開記者會台大醫院根本不會進行行政調查"},{"start":174.471,"end":190.956,"text":"那後來我們發現他不是只有三位受害者性侵跟性侵未遂都是一樣的手法他是有六位就是潛在知道是六位那只是三個人願意出來據名去不管是申訴到法庭"},{"start":191.496,"end":216.572,"text":"他們窮盡所有的部分那我要講的事情是說這個過程中真的看到台大跟台大醫院都非常的消極那處理這件事情那今年5月的時候我質詢林靜儀次長那他告訴我們說7月21號會提供修正懲戒辦法的報告務必納入懲戒期間追蹤跟監督機制"},{"start":217.352,"end":234.16,"text":"那剛剛也有非常多人在講這個醫事查詢系統因為之前我並不了解這個醫事查詢系統我剛剛就在林淑芬委員的時候我放鄭文芳的名字進去發現沒有任何結果我放了林靜儀十幾筆資料"},{"start":235.5,"end":261.022,"text":"為什麼鄭文芳在這裡面查不出來我想這就是剛剛很多委員在講的那我長期在教育文化委員會我們教育文化委員會教育部在教師法上弄了多少的心力不管是教師性騷霸凌學生不適應教師的機制應處理得很完善現在處理校長的部分那我真的覺得就是衛福部長期讓大家感覺好像站在醫師這裡而且是"},{"start":262.503,"end":284.37,"text":"站在醫師權益的部分我想我們部長都是出身醫師可以理解可是二職的醫師不應該是我們包庇的對象而且我發現這個醫師法第25條違反醫學倫理性騷病人當然違反醫學倫理傷害病人自主權傷害病人利益可是你們的醫師法裡面沒有講罰則是要"},{"start":286.351,"end":311.856,"text":"多少萬我剛剛現場又看了一次所以看起來醫師法跟就是醫師懲戒機制漏洞百出不只是今天講的這個醫事查詢系統那林靜怡已經答應我7月21號會給我們如何修的報告那我請部長真的要痛切反省啦您也是出身台大醫院對不對那看到台大醫院的消極"},{"start":312.876,"end":339.398,"text":"然後那就是連女醫師出來說職權性騷的時候都沒有積極處理那是不是能夠痛定思痛7月21號給我們的報告要徹底從醫師法跟醫師懲戒條例都要提出你們的版本有承諾要真的把漏洞補上好嗎除了剛剛講的這醫師查詢系統要讓所有的病人所有的人都能夠方便查詢可以嗎"},{"start":339.878,"end":355.885,"text":"好 我們剛剛其實有答應一個月之內要把剛剛更多的事情把它完成如果前面林市長有提到7月21號要提供如何修醫師懲戒辦法"},{"start":358.526,"end":370.774,"text":"但是我覺得醫師法也是漏洞百出25條他明明就是違反這個醫界倫理的話就是可以送懲戒可是醫師法本身其他條都有說罰則是什麼可是針對這個違反倫理的部分那居然沒有告訴大家懲戒的內容應該是什麼"},{"start":379.079,"end":394.662,"text":"好 我想我們會除了落實醫師懲戒委員會這個工作以外我們如果需要在未來需要再做法律上的處理都可以來做好不好 醫師法一併提出您的看法是不是該修因為醫師懲戒條例也是依照醫師法就訂的嘛它是子法嘛 那母法的部分我看來看去找不到違反25條這個倫理的部分是什麼"},{"start":406.724,"end":419.857,"text":"那大家老是去動用那個說要就是所謂的要判刑就是確定來讓剛剛大家所講的就是明明醫師性騷病人就是違反倫理了還繼續就就就是在調查期間以性供法來講的話性騷法來講這是職權性騷醫生跟病人的不對等關係那這本來就應該要站離職就這個精神"},{"start":430.687,"end":448.199,"text":"可是因為他不屬於性供法那性騷法是叫各單位自己再去定所以你們是主管機關就應該把它定清楚好嗎第一個就是說調查期間暫離職如果調查不成依照性供法的精神是可以賠償他的就是這個部分就是他當時的薪水好嗎就這幾個醫師查詢系統還有醫師法是不是該修還有醫師懲戒辦法是不是該修7月21號的報告都一併給我們"},{"start":460.867,"end":484.27,"text":"那再來的話社救法也是本席從上一屆開始因為剛剛那個都在講就是所謂的貧窮線那我要講一下2022年12月20號當時包含台大社工系鄭教授等也都是我想呂健德次長在當教授的時候也都非常熟悉那大家的看法是"},{"start":485.071,"end":508.437,"text":"台灣用的不是貧窮線的問題是法規限制過多導致法定貧窮人口過低這點所以我們不要再糾結那當然就是後來民間提出邀請我提出首部我們立法院的民間版那我也那我要跟部長講就是衛福部真的太消極您不是部長的時候你們的錢"},{"start":510.598,"end":514.26,"text":"部長或次長一直拒絕修設就法所以我才會跑去質詢陳建仁行政院長然後陳院長他當場答應了所以衛福部才開始動可是呢2024年6月我在質詢是為什麼衛福部的草案根本沒有解決問題所以你們現在是第二回合再戰了大家知道我的意思"},{"start":532.513,"end":561.773,"text":"不要再拿一個沒有解決問題的版本你現在還沒有提版本可是我看你們今天給我們的報告我真的覺得每個東西都把我們委員提的版本都說要審慎研議都有很多的理由還是沒有真正解決問題那我今天時間的緣故剛剛又在評論這個東西了那我就不就這件事情因為算法都不一樣就是學術問題那我知道呂次長有想法可以給我報告說你們怎麼算的"},{"start":562.733,"end":582.107,"text":"我講這個上面這個就是所謂的國際貧窮線各位看一下這個我們沒有什麼好辯論了台灣依照OECD的國際貧窮線中位數百分之六十有兩百八十萬人在貧窮線以下下面是我們的現階段法定貧窮人口法定貧窮人口"},{"start":582.907,"end":601.015,"text":"那就剛剛講的很多社會新聞的都不在這裡面我們所有很多的福利都是匡這個中低收入只有53萬人280萬人跟53萬人中間差距是200多萬人所以你這個匡不匡大一點不管是地方出中央出"},{"start":601.915,"end":619.143,"text":"就是說既然未來是地方蘇財化法那你中央就把這個線框好嘛每一個因為貧窮喔就是傷害自己生命的悲劇喔你們衛福部都應該要痛在心裡就是說那家戶來講26萬戶被框定法定貧窮人那依照國際貧窮線我們的貧窮線沒問題都是各種條條款款讓他們被排除有196萬戶耶這中間的差距是170幾萬戶耶"},{"start":631.868,"end":636.732,"text":"所以呢那在講日本韓國的話我想次長非常知道日本韓國針對無家者有相關的專法那這次你們只有五條而且把很多東西又丟給內政部什麼住宅法那你這邊如果是特殊法"},{"start":647.179,"end":672.068,"text":"那不然是要叫中央主管機關另訂一個辦法嗎你這裡就應該規範他應有然後內政部就應該優先讓他們可以所以怎麼解決的部分那我真的覺得我們不要再重蹈覆轍上一次衛福部的版本大家不能接受趁著520之前不知道為什麼就出了一個各界不滿意的版本那當然那不是邱部長的責任也不是呂次長的責任那我們現在呂健德次長"},{"start":675.009,"end":700.345,"text":"出身社會福利又說在台中的時候率先關心無家者那是不是這次給我們一個滿意的版本就你們剛剛所講的我先隨便舉一個無審議制我剛剛聽到呂次長在回應的時候有提到我的那個條文你們覺得很不錯那可是你給我們的報告說要放進執法我想講的是如果你覺得審議制度不錯那老人福利法就放在母法嘛"},{"start":700.905,"end":725.183,"text":"那這種重要的東西是不是放在母法有些東西是需要具體討論的不要放在子法好不好那地方政府也不一定認真看子法另外一個家戶合計也是一大問題各位我們在修社福法的時候跟我們前部長也爭辯了很久那當時後來林萬億政委就是讓步我們放了以人為本沒有拿掉家庭"},{"start":725.623,"end":747.191,"text":"可是各位你們今天要跟我們講說民法什麼有撫養義務大家都知道家長撫養小孩就算家長沒有能力的時候社福單位會接手對不對那今天小孩撫養家長請問各位你們家長的錢是你所有的收入都給他嗎也不是嘛你會扣除自己養家的需要剩下的才能夠飼養長輩嗎"},{"start":749.392,"end":771.153,"text":"對不對 那可是你家戶計算把它全部都所有的收入都算進去然後說這個沒有子女撫養的家長不符合中低收入戶的資格最後少數個案被迫去告他拿民法去告他 未盡然後反而變得家庭悲劇因為子女就是二言相向"},{"start":771.894,"end":801.093,"text":"那這不是我們要看的所以你就不應該只排除家暴跟很少數就應該要實質認定社工跟各方面而且緊記住共同生活的都沒有生活在一起了那我相信以我們台灣人大部分的孝道子女會願意協助他沒有辦法協助就是自己可能也不管什麼原因或者是親子關係很糟糕那我們要解決的不是倫理問題那個是民法去處理的我們要解決的是社會救助"},{"start":801.593,"end":825.356,"text":"我剛講的 你空了那麼多 兩百多萬人沒有算在裡面而且無家者在街上的這麼多你去日本你有看到人家的車站有像我們台北車站旁邊這麼多嗎那我們說我們現在經濟成長已經超越韓國了我相信你去做民調 很多的民眾會願意放寬你們是主管社會福利 社會安全 這是社會安全的最底層那個"},{"start":826.617,"end":851.838,"text":"那如果有人真的是開豪車幹嘛你就去社工拜訪把他取消資格嘛不要因為這樣框框條條的讓該領的人沒有辦法領到流落街頭好不好那今天日本韓國都有無家者專章我們只有五條還是不夠那我希望我們看到你們衛福部的版本不要跟今天給我們委員的報告一樣每個東西都把我們委員的意見都說我們以謹慎評估沒有幾個答應的"},{"start":856.161,"end":880.62,"text":"那我們就不用修了我想不能這樣子我們剛剛秀芳委員的質詢等一下劉建國委員質詢我相信我們的心聲都是一樣啦我們對這一屆期待很高啦因為就是說賴總統的政見我們很高興他放進去了那邱部長跟呃呂次長已經看到我們上一屆提的版本被大家認為不能所以你們要重新提版本好不好"},{"start":881.941,"end":908.729,"text":"那就這樣子喔一起加油啦衛福部主管的是病人的權益醫師的利益當傷害病人權益的時候不應該站在他們那邊好不好還有這個是弱勢者最最弱勢的赤貧的部分喔好最後一個地下經濟各國都有不要用地下經濟來講虛擬收入打折現在就在做所以不要再我們再重蹈覆轍了好不好那今天細節沒有辦法講完我們再跟你們討論好的好的謝謝"},{"start":911.131,"end":912.414,"text":"好 謝謝范雲委員接下來請劉建國委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1348,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時37分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["范委員雲：先謝謝召委今天給我們很充分的時間，可以關心好幾大案，今天不管是臺大鄭文芳醫師潛逃案或者是社救法，應該都可以說是我最早關心的，而且也一直追蹤。先從鄭文芳案來講，鄭文芳案我們衛環委員開始關心，是因為看到臺大婦產科，一個婦產科而且是臺大，短短兩、三年內三大案，其中最嚴重的當然就是鄭文芳案，上一次剛好部長去WHO為我們臺灣倡議，當時林靜儀次長就有答應要修醫師懲戒法、醫師法等。","然後剛剛又聽了幾位委員的質詢，我想可能部長沒有機會知道，但我要講的是，我們開記者會的時候，就已經關心這個案子一年了，2022年2月受害者跟我們陳情的時候，我們就開始予以協助，可是卻發現臺大醫院非常消極，臺大也很消極，臺大跟臺大醫院互踢皮球，後來我們是因為循法制沒有辦法解決，我們才跟受害人……而且我們後來發現從一個受害人到三個受害人，受害人願意站出來開這個記者會，臺大醫院終於啟動行政調查，一年後，也搞了一年，把鄭文芳醫師解職，結果這個醫師很厲害，大家知道刑事調查是不一樣的，他以刑事調查說他沒事，雖然臺大醫院行政調查說他有事，但2023年我們竟然聽到臺大要復聘這位狼醫教授，各位知道，臺大醫院、臺大醫學院就是要復聘他，我們跟受害人為什麼要再次開記者會？就是制度出了問題。行使制度的人沒有在保障受害者，所以開記者會高聲呼籲臺大教評會為了學生，也為了受害人不應該復聘，既然臺大醫院已經把他解職了，才以31比0高票否決復聘案。這位鄭文芳醫師非常會鑽法律漏洞，而且當初臺大跟臺大醫院互踢皮球的時候，臺大說這個受害人是業務、他是在業務上，所以應該適用性工法，臺大醫院說它屬醫學院，所以應該臺大才有性平會，你看這是怎麼互踢皮球的。","如果我們沒有開記者會，臺大醫院根本不會進行行政調查，後來我們發現還不是只有3位受害者，性侵跟性侵未遂都是一樣的手法，所以潛在知道的就有6位，只是有3個人願意出來具名包括申訴到法庭，他們窮盡了所有的部分。我要講的事情是，在這個過程中，真的看到臺大跟臺大醫院都非常消極在處理這件事情。","今年5月的時候，我質詢林靜儀次長，他告訴我們7月21號會提供修正懲戒辦法的報告，務必納入懲戒期間追蹤跟監督機制。剛剛也有非常多人在講這個醫事查詢系統，但之前我並不瞭解這個醫事查詢系統，所以我剛剛就在林淑芬委員問的時候放了鄭文芳的名字進去，發現沒有任何結果欸！我放了「林靜儀」則有十幾筆資料，為什麼鄭文芳在這裡面查不出來？我想這就是剛剛很多委員在講的。","我長期在教育及文化委員會，教育部在教師法上用了多少心力，不管是教師性騷、霸凌學生，還是不適任教師的機制已經處理得很完善，現在是在處理校長的部分。我真的覺得衛福部長期讓大家感覺好像是在站在醫師這裡，而且是站在醫師權益的部分，我想部長都是醫師出身可以理解，可是惡質的醫師不應該是我們包庇的對象。而且我發現醫師法第二十五條有包括違反醫學倫理的規定，性騷病人當然有違反醫學倫理，因為傷害病人自主權、傷害病人利益，可是在你們的醫師法裡面沒有講罰則是要多少萬，我剛剛在現場又看了一次。看起來醫師法跟醫師懲戒機制漏洞百出，不只是今天講的這個醫事查詢系統，林靜儀已經答應我要在7月21號會給我們如何修的報告，我請部長真的要痛切反省。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["范委員雲：您也出身臺大醫院對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["范委員雲：看到臺大醫院的消極，然後連女醫師出來說職權性騷的時候都沒有積極處理，是不是能夠痛定思痛，7月21號給我們的報告要澈底對醫師法跟醫師懲戒條例都要提出你們的版本，並承諾真的把漏洞補上好嗎？除了剛剛講的這個醫師查詢系統以外，還要讓所有的病人、所有的人都能夠方便查詢，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會……剛剛其實有答應在1個月之內要把剛剛更多的事情完成，如果前面林次長有提到7月21號要提供，我想我們也會盡力完成。"],["范委員雲：如何修醫師懲戒辦法？但我覺得醫師法也是漏洞百出，明明違反第二十五條的醫學倫理就是可以送懲戒，醫師法本身的其他條都有說罰則是什麼，可是針對這個違反醫學倫理的部分居然沒有告訴大家懲戒的內容應該是什麼。"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們除了落實醫師懲戒委員會的這個工作以外，未來如果有需要做法律上的處理，也都可以做。"],["范委員雲：好不好？對醫師法也要一併提出你們的看法是不是該修，因為醫師懲戒條例也是依照醫師法去訂的，它是子法嘛！母法的部分，我看來看去找不到違反第二十五條醫學倫理部分的是什麼，大家老是動用所謂要判刑確定的部分，大家剛剛所講的，明明醫師性騷病人就是違反倫理了，在調查期間還繼續就職。以性工法、性騷法來講，這是職權性騷，因為醫生跟病人有不對等的關係，就這個精神這本來就應該要暫離職，可是因為它不屬於性工法，性騷法是叫各單位自己再去訂，所以你們是主管機關就應該把它訂清楚，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["范委員雲：第一個就是說，調查期間要暫離職，如果調查不成立，依照性工法的精神是可以賠償的，就是他當時的薪水這個部分，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["范委員雲：就是這幾個：醫師查詢系統、醫師法是不是該修，還有醫師懲戒辦法是不是該修，7月21號的報告都一併給我們好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["范委員雲：再來的話，社救法也是本席從上一屆開始……因為剛剛都在講所謂的貧窮線，我要講一下在2022年12月20號，當時包含臺大社工系鄭教授等，我想呂建德次長在當教授的時候也都非常熟悉。大家的看法是，臺灣用的不是貧窮線的問題，而是法規限制過多導致法定貧窮人口過低。"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["范委員雲：所以我們不要再糾結，後來民間邀請我提出首部立法院的民間版，我也要跟部長講，衛福部真的太消極，您不是部長的時候，你們的前部長或次長一直拒絕修社救法，所以我才會跑去質詢陳建仁行政院長，然後陳院長當場答應了，所以衛福部才開始動。可是2024年6月我又再質詢了一次，為什麼？因為衛福部的草案根本就沒有解決問題，所以你們現在是第二回合再戰了，大家知道我的意思嗎？不要再拿一個沒有解決問題的版本，你現在還沒有提版本，可是我看你們今天給我們的報告，我真的覺得你們對我們委員所提版本裡的每個東西都說要審慎研議，都有很多的理由卻還是沒有真正解決問題。","今天因為時間的緣故，剛剛又在辯論這個東西了，我就不就這件事情，因為算法都不一樣，這是學術問題，我知道呂次長有想法可以給我報告說明你們是怎麼算的。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["范委員雲：我講的上面這個就是所謂的「國際貧窮線」，各位看一下，這個我們沒有什麼好辯論的，臺灣依照OECD的國際貧窮線，以中位數的60%來講，有280萬人是在貧窮線以下；下面是我們現階段的「法定貧窮人口」，就像剛剛講的，很多上社會新聞的都不在這裡面，我們很多的福利都是匡定給中低收入，只有53萬人。在280萬人跟53萬人之間差距了二百多萬人耶！所以你匡不匡大一點？不管是地方出還是中央出，既然未來依據財劃法是地方出，你中央就把這個線匡好嘛！每一個因為貧窮而傷害自己生命的悲劇，你們衛福部都應該要痛在心裡。以家戶來講，26萬戶被匡定為法定貧窮人口，依照國際貧窮線，我們的貧窮線沒問題，都有各種條條款款，讓他們被排除，有196萬戶，這中間的差距是一百七十幾萬戶欸！","再講日本、韓國的話，我想次長非常知道日本、韓國針對無家者有相關的專法，這次你們只有5條，而且把很多東西又丟給內政部住宅法什麼的。你這邊如果是特殊法的話，難道要叫中央主管機關另訂一個辦法嗎？你這裡就應該規範應有的……然後內政部就應該優先讓他們可以……","所以在怎麼解決的部分，我真的覺得我們不要再重蹈覆轍，上一次衛福部的版本大家不能接受，趁著在520之前不知道為什麼就出了一個各界不滿意的版本。當然，這不是邱部長的責任，也不是呂次長的責任。現在的呂建德次長的出身是社會福利方面，又說在臺中的時候率先關心無家者，是不是這次給我們一個滿意的版本？","就你們剛剛所講的，我先隨便舉一個無審議制，我剛剛聽到呂次長在回應的時候有提到，你們覺得我的那個條文很不錯，可是你給我們的報告說是要放進子法。我想講的是，如果你覺得審議制度不錯，老人福利法就放在母法嘛！這種重要的東西是不是就放在母法？有些東西是需要具體討論的，不要放在子法好不好？地方政府也不一定會認真看子法。","另外一個，家戶合計也是一大問題。各位，我們在修社福法的時候也跟前部長爭辯了很久，後來當時的林萬億政委讓步，我們放了以人為本，沒有拿掉「家庭」。可是各位，你們今天又跟我們講說民法有什麼扶養的義務，大家都知道，家長扶養小孩，就算家長沒有能力的時候，社福單位會接手，對不對？今天小孩扶養家長，請問各位，小孩是把所有的收入都給家長嗎？也不是嘛！他會扣除自己養家的需要，剩下的才能夠扶養長輩，對不對？可是你家戶計算把他所有的收入都算進去，然後說這個沒有子女扶養的家長不符合中低收入戶的資格，最後少數個案被迫拿民法去告他未盡扶養義務，反而變成家庭悲劇，因為子女惡言相向。這不是我們要看的，所以你就不應該只排除家暴及很少數的，就應該要實質認定，由社工及各方面，而且僅計入共同生活的，都沒有生活在一起了。","我相信以大部分臺灣人的孝道，子女會願意協助，他如果沒有辦法協助，就是自己可能也……不管什麼原因，或者是親子關係很糟糕。我們要解決的不是倫理問題，那個是民法去處理的，我們要解決的是社會救助。我剛剛講的，你匡了那麼多，兩百多萬人沒有算在裡面，而且無家者在街上的這麼多，你去日本有看到人家車站旁邊像我們臺北車站旁邊的這麼多嗎？我們說我們現在經濟成長已經超越韓國了，我相信你去做民調，很多的民眾會願意放寬。你們是主管社會福利、社會安全的，這個是社會安全最底層的，如果有人真的是開豪車什麼的，你就由社工去拜訪，把他取消資格，不要因為這樣，條條框框的讓該領的人沒有辦法領到，流落街頭，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["范委員雲：今天日本、韓國都有無家者專章，我們只有5條，還是不夠！我希望我們看到衛福部的版本不要跟今天給委員的報告一樣，對委員的意見都說宜謹慎評估，沒有幾個答應的，那我們就不用修了，我想不能這樣子！剛剛秀芳委員的質詢，以及等一下劉建國委員的質詢，我相信我們的心聲都是一樣。我們對這一屆期待很高，因為賴總統的政見，我們很高興他放進去了，邱部長及呂次長已經看到上一屆你們提的版本被大家認為不能，所以你們要重新提版本，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["范委員雲：好，就這樣子，一起加油！衛福部主管的是病人的權益，當醫師的利益傷害病人權益的時候，不應該站在他們那邊，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是，不會。"],["范委員雲：還有這個是弱勢者、最最弱勢的、赤貧的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["范委員雲：好。最後一個，地下經濟各國都有，不要用地下經濟來講，虛擬收入打折現在就在做，所以我們不要再重蹈覆轍了，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["范委員雲：今天細節沒有辦法講完，我們再跟你們討論。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：好。"],["呂次長建德：謝謝范雲委員。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳代）：謝謝范雲委員，接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-19","speakers":["劉建國","范雲","林月琴","楊瓊瓔","陳昭姿","王育敏","陳菁徽","林淑芬","涂權吉","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張雅琳","盧縣一","黃秀芳","楊曜","林楚茵","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","陳瑩"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2025-07-07"],"gazette_id":"1146604","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146604_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員楊曜等17人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二、委員范雲等17人擬\n具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正\n草案」案；四、委員黃秀芳等20人擬具「社會救助法第二條、第四條及第十四條條文修正草案」\n案；五、委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；六、委員黃捷等16人\n擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；七、委員蔡其昌等 17 人擬具「社會救助法第四\n條、第四條之一及第五條條文修正草案」案；八、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n條文修正草案」案；九、委員王鴻薇等26人擬具「社會救助法第十五條及第十五條之一條文修正\n草案」案；十、委員邱若華等20人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、台灣民眾黨\n黨團擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；十三、委員楊瓊\n瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救\n助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案；十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文\n修正草案」案；十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；十七、委\n員馬文君等20 人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十八、委員葉元之等 21 人擬具\n「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n及第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、委員林楚茵\n等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救\n助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草\n案」案；二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案；二十六、\n委員吳沛憶等16 人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委員邱鎮軍等 24 人擬具\n「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條\n之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二\n條文修正草案」案；三十、委員馬文君等16 人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案\n【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1146604_00020"}}}