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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等20人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員葉元之等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三十、委員馬文君等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-07-07","start_time":"2025-07-07T12:53:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-07T13:15:06+08:00","duration":1324,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"163019","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163019","tool":"pyannote","id":"163019-pyannote"},"job_id":"q13pCVHaBF5swHHA","queued_at":"2025-07-07 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1163.342, \"end\": 1190.841, \"text\": \"你注意喔感謝委員啦我們這個博文其實博長也讓我們這裡記得我們真的是要有各界意見嘛我們都真的在加速推動啦那個時間我也知道要趕快撒出來我們趕快來提出來也跟醫院那邊來做報告因為現在已經七月初了嘛對不對對啦你兩個月勢必超過八月底了啦對啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1163.342, \"end\": 1163.482, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 1163.482, \"end\": 1163.682, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 1163.682, \"end\": 1163.742, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 1163.742, \"end\": 1165.964, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 1165.964, \"end\": 1166.224, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1166.224, \"end\": 1166.524, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1166.524, \"end\": 1168.225, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1168.225, \"end\": 1168.506, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"博\", \"start\": 1168.506, \"end\": 1168.626, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 1168.626, 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\"end\": 1308.751, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:14,229\n好謝謝主席有請部長請邱部長次長一邊上來吧各位好部長好\n\n2\n00:00:17,074 --> 00:00:41,139\n這個今天我們當然主要還是要討論社會救助法但是討論社會救助法之前還是會有連結到所謂涉案這涉案的漏洞主政單位陳副換農委員剛剛所講的還是在衛務部所以部長真的會很辛苦部長從事的是醫療背景的專業那當然衛務部涵蓋的包括社會福利、社會救助諸如此類\n\n3\n00:00:42,069 --> 00:01:08,715\n坦白講它是一個非常龐大的一個組織跟系統所以部長真的是要多多擔待那當然很多事情可能你的幕僚單位第一個時間應該會要很清楚的明確的提供相關的訊息給你做相關的一些因應跟參考那我特別今天講因為今天有很多人都提到7月2號台灣發生這個旱事因為詐騙的事件導致一家五口\n\n4\n00:01:09,395 --> 00:01:29,638\n全部命負謊權這讓人感覺到非常的痛苦也非常的遺憾但是我們如果從這個悲劇裡面記取這個教訓也從衛生單位能否可以接住這個社會安全感的這個洞這個洞可能越來越大\n\n5\n00:01:30,595 --> 00:01:52,412\n那越大的情況之下,衛部要承接起來衛部只有單純衛生單位來處理,夠嗎?顯然是不夠的啦,包含警政,包含法務,包含相關的單位都應該要一併進來那我簡單要跟部長提醒這件事情坦白講,這個要從社會救助法,剛剛有委員特別要去把它連結在一塊\n\n6\n00:01:53,392 --> 00:02:14,678\n顯然是有困難的好比說社會救助法第21條這次長應該很清楚21條裡面就是所謂的極端救助因為社會救助法裡面我們要救助對象包含低收中低收入戶包含這些極端救助包含這個災害救助等等但是絕對沒有辦法包含這一塊所以社會救助法是沒辦法來承接來協助再來它也沒有包含\n\n7\n00:02:22,847 --> 00:02:39,961\n他也沒有報案我說台中這個案例他也沒有報案對不對他也沒有求助警察但是我要表達說像這樣的案件我們不容許再發生但是他還是會持續的因為詐騙導致整個家庭困頓\n\n8\n00:02:41,522 --> 00:03:04,115\n導致整個家庭要走向這樣的悲劇在尚未走向悲劇之前他可能會困頓困頓的情況之下可能經濟的困頓可能相關法律上的一些困頓可能還有很多的面向那站在衛生機關可以怎麼樣來主動積極介入協助不要讓他走到像這個台中這樣的一個案例\n\n9\n00:03:05,086 --> 00:03:30,494\n我想衛福部這個時間點就必須要有相關的一些去做一些調查跟了解然後第一個時間哪怕法律都還沒有辦法在修正之前我們就要有快速的營業的作為啦所以這個部分我再簡單用兩個例子給各位做參考了台灣的詐騙這個金額已經很高了我就不再贅述但是\n\n10\n00:03:31,674 --> 00:03:47,343\n詐騙的被害者目前為止沒有相關的保護措施不僅法務部的犯罪被害人權力保障法沒有輔助連我們的社會救助法特殊監獄家庭這個輔助條例通通沒有辦法精準的去接觸這一群受害者\n\n11\n00:03:48,304 --> 00:04:06,217\n然後我說他一定會撐出不窮的來這樣發聲這有些詐騙的民眾他動輒可能是畢生的積蓄一夕之間被詐騙一空化為烏有對他的身心靈的傷害也是非常非常大台中這個例子也是一個實際上的狀況\n\n12\n00:04:10,260 --> 00:04:38,255\n去年12月台北市內湖母女遭詐騙1200萬輕生還有基隆許新女子被騙走的畢生積蓄500多萬報警後她有報警喔那最後她還是絕望的輕生等啦所以我講這些案件會層出不窮那因為今天排社會救助法的這個草案的這個大理巡打那當然大家做這樣的連結也算是很正常嘛那這個部分照理講部長在這一塊裡面可能就要\n\n13\n00:04:39,045 --> 00:04:56,472\n就要有一些說法的因應那反而反之等一下要去提到這個蘭姨的事情因為這上禮拜又發生她落跑了那為何我會排了相關的這些法案在審查的時候我以為一定會問得到\n\n14\n00:04:57,318 --> 00:05:09,866\n一定會問到嘛所以你應該就是都要積極的備戰坦白講是這個樣子嘛所以我今天我今天還特別我因為知道可能有這些事情會發生所以我還特別要求144的市長要到了我不曉得他什麼原因可以不到了\n\n15\n00:05:15,595 --> 00:05:37,123\n那一次林靜儀次長是因為部長出國對不對然後當然副市長來列席嘛很正常嘛那林委員他可能也忘了那這次是你部長到當然今天的主責不是議事司不過我是有特別要求議事司司長要到因為上個禮拜朗逸這個事件也吵得灰火洋洋\n\n16\n00:05:38,792 --> 00:05:54,638\n這是一個敏感的問題嘛這是一個委員會衛環委員會所有的委員包含不是本委會的委員都會來來問上你幾句啊況且喔況且你再回想一下當時你們在一月份的時候你們市長講什麼話我就覺得你輸掉講話\n\n17\n00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:08,326\n我們雜貨人工會做得到,路線會過往是做得到的他講什麼他對外宣稱三個月內將嚴厲揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院等名單當時臥部醫事師師長劉月平也回應現行早已臥有醫師名單要不要公布都很快\n\n18\n00:06:23,459 --> 00:06:48,356\n但因在法律討論之下公布到什麼範圍會不會在維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這是傢伙說的對不對後期就是你剛出國的時候嘛那時候是社交域罷的嘛就沒有零次嘛林委員在講的那一個平台跟這個又另外一個城市問題不一樣啦所以當然剛才說久了久了你聽起來他不會說\n\n19\n00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:51,999\n因為我沒有跟你做董事也八年了也吃十年了其實我也沒看你倆說但是你的意思是有對外講這些話然後那一天副市長你列席嘛對不對市長你聽懂了他確實有答覆嘛有答應嘛所以一個月內嘛\n\n20\n00:07:07,375 --> 00:07:19,583\n所以現在不能叫做嚴厲階段不能叫做什麼法律什麼有的沒有的而且那時候我們也提供給你們醫師懲戒辦法22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員醫師懲戒副審委員這個懲戒決議將於執行另一集決議書刊登公報你怎麼要公佈啊你有法條的依據啊法院主治法第83條針對判決或懲戒確定的名單所證為因公開之資訊\n\n21\n00:07:37,510 --> 00:07:56,537\n這都沒頂搭的東西,這你弄壞了遺孫啊,況且他剛剛講的第二十五條第一款,過去都用第一款,那第四款你們還是可以用,你們怎麼都不用,到底是在這個地方呢?不過因為他講那些話,當然部長你會生氣啦,但是生氣的前提是什麼原因嘛?他可以說,你如果沒做,你當然是\n\n22\n00:07:57,837 --> 00:08:27,277\n你當然就是定義包庇嘛你當然也聽不下去你就無理包庇啊但是你沒有做就會有這個問題發生嘛他就會挑戰你就會質疑你嘛再來他說你可能有些事情不清楚不懂那個不懂是因為他講的那個介入那個平台是單純你所有的醫師你怎麼可以選擇你這個介入你這個不介入你竟然上那個平台哪有在那邊做多重的選擇那當然是醫師是你要去規劃要規劃很清楚啊\n\n23\n00:08:28,618 --> 00:08:49,109\n你有公務員資格的醫師你就去刪那個平台沒有公務員資格的你就不需要刪那個平台這個也不是很奇怪一件事情嗎所以我現在在講這個問題是說其實有兩者溝通啦如果遇到這個問題兩者跟一些關心這個委員講得清楚你現在遇到什麼問題嘛現在沒有辦法一時一刻有辦法處理你還有主動去跟人家說你如果沒有主動去跟人家說\n\n24\n00:08:56,341 --> 00:09:10,352\n你也明知道今天來這個地方一定會遇到的,你早不去嘛,你也不要動手,但是在保證先去,大家說明我清楚,如果有人來這個地方,你問問自己,不知道要不要去回答,你自己也不知道,應該很清楚的,他不說了,還說保證。\n\n25\n00:09:15,034 --> 00:09:32,481\n所以這樣處理事情真的是不對啦那我今天要講社會救助法道理一樣啦你看啦我剛剛有特別提到在15年前大修那個就是我主題的啦那個也是我大修的啦但是很難改變當時當時的部長還有當時的次長當時還沒有設修室喔應該是屬於在社會室的底下嘛對不對\n\n26\n00:09:41,405 --> 00:09:46,495\n那種舊思維你就是很難去改變它不過我們還是一樣大修了大修六條\n\n27\n00:09:47,601 --> 00:10:15,680\n現在最低生活費的標準基本上以前是一致性的全國是一致性的剛剛熊王委員特別有提到怎麼在這個地方一般縣市跟台北市的對照連基本工資都已經高過了只有這樣比例所以後來才又改為六都咧以前是五都變成六都嘛那六都就六個標準一般縣市就一般縣市標準離島就離島標準台灣就是八個標準在做處理我們不是沒有因應然後包含這些工業的土地啦地地利啦我們都有討論過\n\n28\n00:10:16,912 --> 00:10:40,722\n那個當然是在規範條件制一旦是會因地制、因狀況去做改變去做審視其實都有相關機制已經都有建制完成了但是為什麼執行到一段時間之後還是會覺得不好用出席之後你說的都很難用難入住你如果對地方站起來你就很清楚\n\n29\n00:10:43,513 --> 00:11:05,313\n我們對低收入戶當然我們對一般的百姓在辦行政的作業的時候我們都希望變名嘛對不對講求一些行政的效率嘛那對低收入戶跟中低收入戶你有時候你看他在審查過程裡面而且一年都要複審一次耶不是你結帳給過公司跟同居士給你過就對了你就是英文的耶一年要審查一百耶每一年要審耶\n\n30\n00:11:08,257 --> 00:11:35,234\n我們還討論到哪有今年是低收入戶一年的審查一個條件不合格馬上他隔年就不是低收入戶哪有這麼硬的我們都已經討論到這個情況了但是為什麼這個法律這麼大無修正經過十來年他還是必須要修了而且在這個最低的貧窮線我們到底是怎麼去認定我們有沒有符合這個先進的國家還是我們現在的審核標準\n\n31\n00:11:37,230 --> 00:11:41,834\n還有包含的這個平融線的這個比例,是跟記者的派出費一致標準,那個人這樣很恐怖,對不對?跟中國東東市對結收,跟中結收給他們的標準,拿來台灣做處理,\n\n32\n00:11:53,189 --> 00:12:20,312\n我們有調整我們有修整有不是沒有但是調沒有很大報沒有很寬是不是當然我在當主席我聽到你講的很多的隱喻嘛跟這個面向嘛好啊那這個可能在開始主條討論的時候可能就要把相關的資料備齊啦大家來對啦但是這個貧窮率的標準這個也不是委員會自己生出來的\n\n33\n00:12:21,345 --> 00:12:33,054\n依照這樣去參考但是他的整個母數的這樣的一個蒐集的計算到底是怎麼樣我們就把它條例的清清楚楚嘛但是他最後最後顯示出來的表就是這個樣子啊好你可以說沒有我們跟日本的計算不一樣我們跟韓國的納入的患者不一樣跟美國不一樣但總而言之也就是總之各國的貧窮率現在算起來就是這樣了\n\n34\n00:12:47,762 --> 00:13:02,050\n我們怎麼會跟人家差這麼多?對不對?日本、韓國、美國、英國我們跟這幾個國家比起來我們的拼求力都不到他們的十分之一台灣真的是互有的國家讓台灣再次強大\n\n35\n00:13:06,554 --> 00:13:34,046\n你有寫一個標,有的時候不知道背後是怎麼去計算但是平時出來就是這樣日本要去參考台灣是不是依照這個標準依照你這個貧窮率來計算來參考然後他覺得很驚訝的時候他才會去試就你怎麼去採這些基本的母數的計算方式嘛對不對那我必須講說所謂的虛擬虛擬這一塊就更好笑了其實那個是在防懶人啦\n\n36\n00:13:36,042 --> 00:13:53,278\n當時的情境,你好好笑啊,你有基本工作能力啊,只是你自己全部套路啊,我當然也要給你省下去,我要給你試算,我給你試算,你當時試算,試算到多好笑呢,我們十五年前你選擇的時候,他試算是比當時的基本工資還高,\n\n37\n00:13:54,605 --> 00:14:07,173\n而且那個得援金你知道嗎?那條款50塊,工資50塊就對了那一百的營養,一個的管制給你營養,可以每個人的資格就對了一次可以刷下500到1000人差50塊而已所以我們就在講說怎麼會有一個低收入跟低收入因為三個條件,其中一個條件然後差個50塊它既然是低收入,明年就不是低收入戶了\n\n38\n00:14:22,353 --> 00:14:34,236\n土地的價值也是這樣公告地價也不是他自己去調的是地方政府去調的他多調了幾百塊他原本是低收入戶因為多調了幾百塊他隔年不是低收入戶了然後生戶沒有用咧生戶沒有用那有台灣的法律對家屬比較重家屬那些法律就硬到這麼硬硬到這麼細那我們還有生戶委員會喔\n\n39\n00:14:50,350 --> 00:15:08,646\n就變成大家要來承擔相信次長當局長就願意承擔有的就不太願意他覺得就不是這個樣子所以很多面向我們都討論過了我是覺得說大家都一直而且這次版本到30案還比我們那個申請法還更多\n\n40\n00:15:10,852 --> 00:15:27,423\n還比鵝托還更多所以大家極為重視社會救助網我知道雁柏嶺還沒有進來但是跟謙虛網都一樣很多人都已經很在意這件事情所以我也希望說衛部可以加快這個腳步因為社會救助進來要救助是要快\n\n41\n00:15:33,121 --> 00:15:58,008\n怎麼有可能說委員本門都已經來了你們很多給部長的報告資料競表同意競表同意競表同意也競表同意一半以上了那為什麼你們社會救助法要修正的草案到現在都不進來而且從去年到現在而且當時陳院長的時候也答應歡迎委員這樣就不叫做社會救助法\n\n42\n00:16:01,607 --> 00:16:05,952\n是不是不可以聽我說這麼多,我都沒有跟你說過,讓你休息一下,你可以臨時給我回應說,不然你當時在意外,我發現這樣不太有意思。\n\n43\n00:16:15,534 --> 00:16:40,767\n謝謝,今天稍微積得很多不管怎麼樣就是加快腳步,因為大家這麼多社會的關心、委員的關心我們請理事督導趕快用最快的適度,來把那個開箱硯板能不能進來這樣子\n\n44\n00:16:42,571 --> 00:17:07,603\n不是啦,不是啦,可能是不是可以你再想一下,答覆清楚一點啦是不是一個月內、兩個月內行政院版本可以進來到委員會跟所有的委員版本並讓大家趕快來討論因為畢竟我們討論完之後還要經過三讀嘛然後是不是可以適用於這一個年度的時候在審查低收入跟中低收入標準的時候就可以來適用,這其一嘛那其二我是第二件事情,就剛剛特別想說\n\n45\n00:17:08,423 --> 00:17:23,563\n這些被詐騙的受害者基本上會不會可能要立即來召集像內政部、警政署、法務部等相關的單位來做這樣整個社會安全網跟這一塊的破洞會越來越擴大\n\n46\n00:17:24,324 --> 00:17:47,976\n我們如果把這些人可以有效的承接起來在心靈上的一個協助啦在整個法律程序上的一個幫忙還有很多的面向就是不要讓他走到像台中這個案例是不是這個可以也肯定答覆我說一個星期內還是兩個星期內因為這要過啦因為這事情會發生這樣我要講那真的\n\n47\n00:17:50,572 --> 00:17:57,315\n有的人會後悔啦他們是坦白講因為時間的關係他們的經濟狀況不是非常不好的後來為什麼他們會走向這樣絕路他沒有去找民意代表\n\n48\n00:18:08,789 --> 00:18:31,027\n但是還沒繼續下去,再來他還沒去報警,最後走到這個角落,這就是社會安全幫出問題嘛,我們怎麼減?這不是有一個單位在處理嘛,衛生、聯警政、法政大家一起來嘛,是不是兩個星期內可以召集,然後提出相關的更積極因應的一些作為。\n\n49\n00:18:33,248 --> 00:18:56,901\n好招委所指示的我覺得非常重要我們兩個禮拜來把這件事情召開會議召集相關的單位來針對這個主題來開會再跟招委報告跟委員會好不好跟委員會報告另外一個社會救助法就是院版的草案是不是一個月內可以吧\n\n50\n00:18:59,176 --> 00:19:21,057\n不然你們那些報告給部隊說請表同意請表同意,那都會騙人啊兩國會啦,好不好兩國會兩國會我們先...我先跟人家說好,來你不要跟剛才那個專門要延期延到八月底的人你密謀喔不會啦,我們...他要延到八月底,你剛才說兩國會,我覺得你跟他有談判關係喔\n\n51\n00:19:23,342 --> 00:19:50,841\n你注意喔感謝委員啦我們這個博文其實博長也讓我們這裡記得我們真的是要有各界意見嘛我們都真的在加速推動啦那個時間我也知道要趕快撒出來我們趕快來提出來也跟醫院那邊來做報告因為現在已經七月初了嘛對不對對啦你兩個月勢必超過八月底了啦對啊\n\n52\n00:19:53,991 --> 00:20:06,584\n我們加速,我們比較快來處理不然我們就8月底前啦你們就先兩個月嘛,差不多一個禮拜而已啊好不好我們下禮拜的日子,我們絕對...現在出庭了,你說兩個月啊\n\n53\n00:20:10,510 --> 00:20:22,394\n現在七月七千而已,你八月第二就兩個月,我是跟你拚一個禮拜而已你跟三十人計較一個禮拜,你吃六勞不是啦是不會啦,我們送到行政議辦部辦你要先出來啊我們送到行政議辦這樣啦,先送你行政議辦沒有啦,我是要你一半出來,不是送你行政議辦,是你去對行政議案,我們這叫做理辦議案,你是要對我的啊對啊\n\n54\n00:20:43,820 --> 00:20:58,393\n因為我沒有聽歡迎委員剛才的取詢我還不曉得去年他已經跟陳院長已經講過這些事情了那我剛剛特別提到你低收跟他不是只有針對中低跟低收入他還包含吉蘭救助對不對還有重大災害\n\n55\n00:21:01,792 --> 00:21:20,679\n所以就是我的整個面向是,當然我知道啦,對啊,所以這是要掛的東西啊,你也不是說,不是說今天開完會就把你掛在兩國,是見證你其實都有在研議嘛,也聽取各界的意見嘛,啊哪有這個時間這麼久的,那就不叫社會救助了啊,就叫做社會緩住啊,\n\n56\n00:21:25,670 --> 00:21:43,307\n兩國委你自己說,我現在跟你說一個禮拜,你差這麼多好啊好啊,沒關係,不然你兩國委,兩國委,我你兩國委,你自己說,院辦只要提出來,是提到立法院,不是提到行政院我們趕快那個,趕快來加速啦,這樣好不好沒有這個加速,你的加速,我加速都兩百,你加速是五十\n\n57\n00:21:45,646 --> 00:21:48,751\n沒有啦,這位舅舅不可以讓你這樣拖啦,還有生權法\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6559\t14229\t好謝謝主席有請部長請邱部長次長一邊上來吧各位好部長好\n17074\t41139\t這個今天我們當然主要還是要討論社會救助法但是討論社會救助法之前還是會有連結到所謂涉案這涉案的漏洞主政單位陳副換農委員剛剛所講的還是在衛務部所以部長真的會很辛苦部長從事的是醫療背景的專業那當然衛務部涵蓋的包括社會福利、社會救助諸如此類\n42069\t68715\t坦白講它是一個非常龐大的一個組織跟系統所以部長真的是要多多擔待那當然很多事情可能你的幕僚單位第一個時間應該會要很清楚的明確的提供相關的訊息給你做相關的一些因應跟參考那我特別今天講因為今天有很多人都提到7月2號台灣發生這個旱事因為詐騙的事件導致一家五口\n69395\t89638\t全部命負謊權這讓人感覺到非常的痛苦也非常的遺憾但是我們如果從這個悲劇裡面記取這個教訓也從衛生單位能否可以接住這個社會安全感的這個洞這個洞可能越來越大\n90595\t112412\t那越大的情況之下,衛部要承接起來衛部只有單純衛生單位來處理,夠嗎?顯然是不夠的啦,包含警政,包含法務,包含相關的單位都應該要一併進來那我簡單要跟部長提醒這件事情坦白講,這個要從社會救助法,剛剛有委員特別要去把它連結在一塊\n113392\t134678\t顯然是有困難的好比說社會救助法第21條這次長應該很清楚21條裡面就是所謂的極端救助因為社會救助法裡面我們要救助對象包含低收中低收入戶包含這些極端救助包含這個災害救助等等但是絕對沒有辦法包含這一塊所以社會救助法是沒辦法來承接來協助再來它也沒有包含\n142847\t159961\t他也沒有報案我說台中這個案例他也沒有報案對不對他也沒有求助警察但是我要表達說像這樣的案件我們不容許再發生但是他還是會持續的因為詐騙導致整個家庭困頓\n161522\t184115\t導致整個家庭要走向這樣的悲劇在尚未走向悲劇之前他可能會困頓困頓的情況之下可能經濟的困頓可能相關法律上的一些困頓可能還有很多的面向那站在衛生機關可以怎麼樣來主動積極介入協助不要讓他走到像這個台中這樣的一個案例\n185086\t210494\t我想衛福部這個時間點就必須要有相關的一些去做一些調查跟了解然後第一個時間哪怕法律都還沒有辦法在修正之前我們就要有快速的營業的作為啦所以這個部分我再簡單用兩個例子給各位做參考了台灣的詐騙這個金額已經很高了我就不再贅述但是\n211674\t227343\t詐騙的被害者目前為止沒有相關的保護措施不僅法務部的犯罪被害人權力保障法沒有輔助連我們的社會救助法特殊監獄家庭這個輔助條例通通沒有辦法精準的去接觸這一群受害者\n228304\t246217\t然後我說他一定會撐出不窮的來這樣發聲這有些詐騙的民眾他動輒可能是畢生的積蓄一夕之間被詐騙一空化為烏有對他的身心靈的傷害也是非常非常大台中這個例子也是一個實際上的狀況\n250260\t278255\t去年12月台北市內湖母女遭詐騙1200萬輕生還有基隆許新女子被騙走的畢生積蓄500多萬報警後 她有報警喔那最後她還是絕望的輕生 等啦所以我講這些案件會層出不窮那因為今天排社會救助法的這個草案的這個大理巡打那當然大家做這樣的連結也算是很正常嘛那這個部分 照理講部長在這一塊裡面可能就要\n279045\t296472\t就要有一些說法的因應那反而 反之 等一下要去提到這個蘭姨的事情因為這上禮拜又發生 她落跑了那為何我會排了相關的這些法案在審查的時候我以為一定會問得到\n297318\t309866\t一定會問到嘛所以你應該就是都要積極的備戰坦白講是這個樣子嘛所以我今天我今天還特別我因為知道可能有這些事情會發生所以我還特別要求144的市長要到了我不曉得他什麼原因可以不到了\n315595\t337123\t那一次林靜儀次長是因為部長出國對不對然後當然副市長來列席嘛 很正常嘛那林委員他可能也忘了那這次是你部長到當然今天的主責不是議事司不過我是有特別要求議事司司長要到因為上個禮拜 朗逸這個事件也吵得灰火洋洋\n338792\t354638\t這是一個敏感的問題嘛這是一個委員會 衛環委員會所有的委員包含不是本委會的委員都會來來問上你幾句啊況且喔 況且你再回想一下當時你們在一月份的時候你們市長講什麼話我就覺得你輸掉講話\n359199\t368326\t我們雜貨人工會做得到,路線會過往是做得到的他講什麼他對外宣稱三個月內將嚴厲揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院等名單當時臥部醫事師師長劉月平也回應現行早已臥有醫師名單要不要公布都很快\n383459\t408356\t但因在法律討論之下公布到什麼範圍會不會在維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這是傢伙說的對不對後期就是你剛出國的時候嘛那時候是社交域罷的嘛就沒有零次嘛林委員在講的那一個平台跟這個又另外一個城市問題不一樣啦所以當然剛才說久了久了你聽起來他不會說\n409116\t411999\t因為我沒有跟你做董事 也八年了 也吃十年了其實我也沒看你倆說但是你的意思是有對外講這些話然後那一天 副市長你列席嘛 對不對市長你聽懂了 他確實有答覆嘛有答應嘛 所以一個月內嘛\n427375\t439583\t所以現在不能叫做嚴厲階段不能叫做什麼法律什麼有的沒有的而且那時候我們也提供給你們醫師懲戒辦法22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員醫師懲戒副審委員這個懲戒決議將於執行另一集決議書刊登公報你怎麼要公佈啊你有法條的依據啊法院主治法第83條針對判決或懲戒確定的名單所證為因公開之資訊\n457510\t476537\t這都沒頂搭的東西,這你弄壞了遺孫啊,況且他剛剛講的第二十五條第一款,過去都用第一款,那第四款你們還是可以用,你們怎麼都不用,到底是在這個地方呢?不過因為他講那些話,當然部長你會生氣啦,但是生氣的前提是什麼原因嘛?他可以說,你如果沒做,你當然是\n477837\t507277\t你當然就是定義包庇嘛你當然也聽不下去你就無理包庇啊但是你沒有做就會有這個問題發生嘛他就會挑戰你就會質疑你嘛再來他說你可能有些事情不清楚不懂那個不懂是因為他講的那個介入那個平台是單純你所有的醫師你怎麼可以選擇你這個介入你這個不介入你竟然上那個平台哪有在那邊做多重的選擇那當然是醫師是你要去規劃要規劃很清楚啊\n508618\t529109\t你有公務員資格的醫師你就去刪那個平台沒有公務員資格的你就不需要刪那個平台這個也不是很奇怪一件事情嗎所以我現在在講這個問題是說其實有兩者溝通啦如果遇到這個問題兩者跟一些關心這個委員講得清楚你現在遇到什麼問題嘛現在沒有辦法 一時一刻有辦法處理你還有主動去跟人家說 你如果沒有主動去跟人家說\n536341\t550352\t你也明知道今天來這個地方一定會遇到的,你早不去嘛,你也不要動手,但是在保證先去,大家說明我清楚,如果有人來這個地方,你問問自己,不知道要不要去回答,你自己也不知道,應該很清楚的,他不說了,還說保證。\n555034\t572481\t所以這樣處理事情真的是不對啦那我今天要講社會救助法道理一樣啦你看啦我剛剛有特別提到在15年前大修那個就是我主題的啦那個也是我大修的啦但是很難改變當時當時的部長還有當時的次長當時還沒有設修室喔應該是屬於在社會室的底下嘛對不對\n581405\t586495\t那種舊思維你就是很難去改變它不過我們還是一樣大修了大修六條\n587601\t615680\t現在最低生活費的標準基本上以前是一致性的 全國是一致性的剛剛熊王委員特別有提到怎麼在這個地方一般縣市跟台北市的對照連基本工資都已經高過了 只有這樣比例所以後來才又改為六都咧以前是五都變成六都嘛那六都就六個標準一般縣市就一般縣市標準離島就離島標準台灣就是八個標準在做處理我們不是沒有因應然後包含這些工業的土地啦 地地利啦我們都有討論過\n616912\t640722\t那個當然是在規範條件制一旦是會因地制、因狀況去做改變去做審視其實都有相關機制已經都有建制完成了但是為什麼執行到一段時間之後還是會覺得不好用出席之後你說的都很難用難入住你如果對地方站起來你就很清楚\n643513\t665313\t我們對低收入戶當然我們對一般的百姓在辦行政的作業的時候我們都希望變名嘛對不對講求一些行政的效率嘛那對低收入戶跟中低收入戶你有時候你看他在審查過程裡面而且一年都要複審一次耶不是你結帳給過公司跟同居士給你過就對了你就是英文的耶一年要審查一百耶每一年要審耶\n668257\t695234\t我們還討論到哪有今年是低收入戶一年的審查一個條件不合格馬上他隔年就不是低收入戶哪有這麼硬的我們都已經討論到這個情況了但是為什麼這個法律這麼大無修正經過十來年他還是必須要修了而且在這個最低的貧窮線我們到底是怎麼去認定我們有沒有符合這個先進的國家還是我們現在的審核標準\n697230\t701834\t還有包含的這個平融線的這個比例,是跟記者的派出費一致標準,那個人這樣很恐怖,對不對?跟中國東東市對結收,跟中結收給他們的標準,拿來台灣做處理,\n713189\t740312\t我們有調整 我們有修整 有不是沒有但是調沒有很大 報沒有很寬是不是 當然 我在當主席我聽到你講的很多的隱喻嘛 跟這個面向嘛好啊 那這個可能在開始主條討論的時候可能就要把相關的資料備齊啦 大家來對啦但是這個貧窮率的標準 這個也不是委員會自己生出來的\n741345\t753054\t依照這樣去參考但是他的整個母數的這樣的一個蒐集的計算到底是怎麼樣我們就把它條例的清清楚楚嘛但是他最後最後顯示出來的表就是這個樣子啊好你可以說沒有我們跟日本的計算不一樣我們跟韓國的納入的患者不一樣跟美國不一樣但總而言之也就是總之各國的貧窮率現在算起來就是這樣了\n767762\t782050\t我們怎麼會跟人家差這麼多?對不對?日本、韓國、美國、英國我們跟這幾個國家比起來我們的拼求力都不到他們的十分之一台灣真的是互有的國家讓台灣再次強大\n786554\t814046\t你有寫一個標,有的時候不知道背後是怎麼去計算但是平時出來就是這樣日本要去參考台灣是不是依照這個標準依照你這個貧窮率來計算來參考然後他覺得很驚訝的時候他才會去試就你怎麼去採這些基本的母數的計算方式嘛對不對那我必須講說所謂的虛擬虛擬這一塊就更好笑了其實那個是在防懶人啦\n816042\t833278\t當時的情境,你好好笑啊,你有基本工作能力啊,只是你自己全部套路啊,我當然也要給你省下去,我要給你試算,我給你試算,你當時試算,試算到多好笑呢,我們十五年前你選擇的時候,他試算是比當時的基本工資還高,\n834605\t847173\t而且那個得援金你知道嗎?那條款50塊,工資50塊就對了那一百的營養,一個的管制給你營養,可以每個人的資格就對了一次可以刷下500到1000人差50塊而已所以我們就在講說怎麼會有一個低收入跟低收入因為三個條件,其中一個條件然後差個50塊它既然是低收入,明年就不是低收入戶了\n862353\t874236\t土地的價值也是這樣公告地價也不是他自己去調的是地方政府去調的他多調了幾百塊他原本是低收入戶因為多調了幾百塊他隔年不是低收入戶了然後生戶沒有用咧生戶沒有用那有台灣的法律對家屬比較重家屬那些法律就硬到這麼硬硬到這麼細那我們還有生戶委員會喔\n890350\t908646\t就變成大家要來承擔相信次長當局長就願意承擔有的就不太願意他覺得就不是這個樣子所以很多面向我們都討論過了我是覺得說大家都一直而且這次版本到30案還比我們那個申請法還更多\n910852\t927423\t還比鵝托還更多所以大家極為重視社會救助網我知道雁柏嶺還沒有進來但是跟謙虛網都一樣很多人都已經很在意這件事情所以我也希望說衛部可以加快這個腳步因為社會救助進來要救助是要快\n933121\t958008\t怎麼有可能說委員本門都已經來了你們很多給部長的報告資料競表同意競表同意競表同意也競表同意一半以上了那為什麼你們社會救助法要修正的草案到現在都不進來而且從去年到現在而且當時陳院長的時候也答應歡迎委員這樣就不叫做社會救助法\n961607\t965952\t是不是不可以聽我說這麼多,我都沒有跟你說過,讓你休息一下,你可以臨時給我回應說,不然你當時在意外,我發現這樣不太有意思。\n975534\t1000767\t謝謝,今天稍微積得很多不管怎麼樣就是加快腳步,因為大家這麼多社會的關心、委員的關心我們請理事督導趕快用最快的適度,來把那個開箱硯板能不能進來這樣子\n1002571\t1027603\t不是啦,不是啦,可能是不是可以你再想一下,答覆清楚一點啦是不是一個月內、兩個月內行政院版本可以進來到委員會跟所有的委員版本並讓大家趕快來討論因為畢竟我們討論完之後還要經過三讀嘛然後是不是可以適用於這一個年度的時候在審查低收入跟中低收入標準的時候就可以來適用,這其一嘛那其二我是第二件事情,就剛剛特別想說\n1028423\t1043563\t這些被詐騙的受害者基本上會不會可能要立即來召集像內政部、警政署、法務部等相關的單位來做這樣整個社會安全網跟這一塊的破洞會越來越擴大\n1044324\t1067976\t我們如果把這些人可以有效的承接起來在心靈上的一個協助啦在整個法律程序上的一個幫忙還有很多的面向就是不要讓他走到像台中這個案例是不是這個可以也肯定答覆我說一個星期內還是兩個星期內因為這要過啦因為這事情會發生這樣 我要講那真的\n1070572\t1077315\t有的人會後悔啦他們是坦白講因為時間的關係他們的經濟狀況不是非常不好的後來為什麼他們會走向這樣絕路他沒有去找民意代表\n1088789\t1111027\t但是還沒繼續下去,再來他還沒去報警,最後走到這個角落,這就是社會安全幫出問題嘛,我們怎麼減?這不是有一個單位在處理嘛,衛生、聯警政、法政大家一起來嘛,是不是兩個星期內可以召集,然後提出相關的更積極因應的一些作為。\n1113248\t1136901\t好 招委所指示的我覺得非常重要我們兩個禮拜來把這件事情召開會議召集相關的單位來針對這個主題來開會再跟招委報告跟委員會好不好 跟委員會報告另外一個社會救助法就是院版的草案是不是一個月內可以吧\n1139176\t1161057\t不然你們那些報告給部隊說請表同意請表同意,那都會騙人啊兩國會啦,好不好兩國會兩國會我們先...我先跟人家說好,來你不要跟剛才那個專門要延期延到八月底的人你密謀喔不會啦,我們...他要延到八月底,你剛才說兩國會,我覺得你跟他有談判關係喔\n1163342\t1190841\t你注意喔感謝委員啦我們這個博文其實博長也讓我們這裡記得我們真的是要有各界意見嘛我們都真的在加速推動啦那個時間我也知道要趕快撒出來我們趕快來提出來也跟醫院那邊來做報告因為現在已經七月初了嘛對不對對啦你兩個月勢必超過八月底了啦對啊\n1193991\t1206584\t我們加速,我們比較快來處理不然我們就8月底前啦你們就先兩個月嘛,差不多一個禮拜而已啊好不好我們下禮拜的日子,我們絕對...現在出庭了,你說兩個月啊\n1210510\t1222394\t現在七月七千而已,你八月第二就兩個月,我是跟你拚一個禮拜而已你跟三十人計較一個禮拜,你吃六勞不是啦是不會啦,我們送到行政議辦部辦你要先出來啊我們送到行政議辦這樣啦,先送你行政議辦沒有啦,我是要你一半出來,不是送你行政議辦,是你去對行政議案,我們這叫做理辦議案,你是要對我的啊對啊\n1243820\t1258393\t因為我沒有聽歡迎委員剛才的取詢我還不曉得去年他已經跟陳院長已經講過這些事情了那我剛剛特別提到你低收跟他不是只有針對中低跟低收入他還包含吉蘭救助對不對還有重大災害\n1261792\t1280679\t所以就是我的整個面向是,當然我知道啦,對啊,所以這是要掛的東西啊,你也不是說,不是說今天開完會就把你掛在兩國,是見證你其實都有在研議嘛,也聽取各界的意見嘛,啊哪有這個時間這麼久的,那就不叫社會救助了啊,就叫做社會緩住啊,\n1285670\t1303307\t兩國委你自己說,我現在跟你說一個禮拜,你差這麼多好啊好啊,沒關係,不然你兩國委,兩國委,我你兩國委,你自己說,院辦只要提出來,是提到立法院,不是提到行政院我們趕快那個,趕快來加速啦,這樣好不好沒有這個加速,你的加速,我加速都兩百,你加速是五十\n1305646\t1308751\t沒有啦,這位舅舅不可以讓你這樣拖啦,還有生權法\n","txt":"好謝謝主席有請部長請邱部長次長一邊上來吧各位好部長好\n這個今天我們當然主要還是要討論社會救助法但是討論社會救助法之前還是會有連結到所謂涉案這涉案的漏洞主政單位陳副換農委員剛剛所講的還是在衛務部所以部長真的會很辛苦部長從事的是醫療背景的專業那當然衛務部涵蓋的包括社會福利、社會救助諸如此類\n坦白講它是一個非常龐大的一個組織跟系統所以部長真的是要多多擔待那當然很多事情可能你的幕僚單位第一個時間應該會要很清楚的明確的提供相關的訊息給你做相關的一些因應跟參考那我特別今天講因為今天有很多人都提到7月2號台灣發生這個旱事因為詐騙的事件導致一家五口\n全部命負謊權這讓人感覺到非常的痛苦也非常的遺憾但是我們如果從這個悲劇裡面記取這個教訓也從衛生單位能否可以接住這個社會安全感的這個洞這個洞可能越來越大\n那越大的情況之下,衛部要承接起來衛部只有單純衛生單位來處理,夠嗎?顯然是不夠的啦,包含警政,包含法務,包含相關的單位都應該要一併進來那我簡單要跟部長提醒這件事情坦白講,這個要從社會救助法,剛剛有委員特別要去把它連結在一塊\n顯然是有困難的好比說社會救助法第21條這次長應該很清楚21條裡面就是所謂的極端救助因為社會救助法裡面我們要救助對象包含低收中低收入戶包含這些極端救助包含這個災害救助等等但是絕對沒有辦法包含這一塊所以社會救助法是沒辦法來承接來協助再來它也沒有包含\n他也沒有報案我說台中這個案例他也沒有報案對不對他也沒有求助警察但是我要表達說像這樣的案件我們不容許再發生但是他還是會持續的因為詐騙導致整個家庭困頓\n導致整個家庭要走向這樣的悲劇在尚未走向悲劇之前他可能會困頓困頓的情況之下可能經濟的困頓可能相關法律上的一些困頓可能還有很多的面向那站在衛生機關可以怎麼樣來主動積極介入協助不要讓他走到像這個台中這樣的一個案例\n我想衛福部這個時間點就必須要有相關的一些去做一些調查跟了解然後第一個時間哪怕法律都還沒有辦法在修正之前我們就要有快速的營業的作為啦所以這個部分我再簡單用兩個例子給各位做參考了台灣的詐騙這個金額已經很高了我就不再贅述但是\n詐騙的被害者目前為止沒有相關的保護措施不僅法務部的犯罪被害人權力保障法沒有輔助連我們的社會救助法特殊監獄家庭這個輔助條例通通沒有辦法精準的去接觸這一群受害者\n然後我說他一定會撐出不窮的來這樣發聲這有些詐騙的民眾他動輒可能是畢生的積蓄一夕之間被詐騙一空化為烏有對他的身心靈的傷害也是非常非常大台中這個例子也是一個實際上的狀況\n去年12月台北市內湖母女遭詐騙1200萬輕生還有基隆許新女子被騙走的畢生積蓄500多萬報警後 她有報警喔那最後她還是絕望的輕生 等啦所以我講這些案件會層出不窮那因為今天排社會救助法的這個草案的這個大理巡打那當然大家做這樣的連結也算是很正常嘛那這個部分 照理講部長在這一塊裡面可能就要\n就要有一些說法的因應那反而 反之 等一下要去提到這個蘭姨的事情因為這上禮拜又發生 她落跑了那為何我會排了相關的這些法案在審查的時候我以為一定會問得到\n一定會問到嘛所以你應該就是都要積極的備戰坦白講是這個樣子嘛所以我今天我今天還特別我因為知道可能有這些事情會發生所以我還特別要求144的市長要到了我不曉得他什麼原因可以不到了\n那一次林靜儀次長是因為部長出國對不對然後當然副市長來列席嘛 很正常嘛那林委員他可能也忘了那這次是你部長到當然今天的主責不是議事司不過我是有特別要求議事司司長要到因為上個禮拜 朗逸這個事件也吵得灰火洋洋\n這是一個敏感的問題嘛這是一個委員會 衛環委員會所有的委員包含不是本委會的委員都會來來問上你幾句啊況且喔 況且你再回想一下當時你們在一月份的時候你們市長講什麼話我就覺得你輸掉講話\n我們雜貨人工會做得到,路線會過往是做得到的他講什麼他對外宣稱三個月內將嚴厲揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院等名單當時臥部醫事師師長劉月平也回應現行早已臥有醫師名單要不要公布都很快\n但因在法律討論之下公布到什麼範圍會不會在維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這是傢伙說的對不對後期就是你剛出國的時候嘛那時候是社交域罷的嘛就沒有零次嘛林委員在講的那一個平台跟這個又另外一個城市問題不一樣啦所以當然剛才說久了久了你聽起來他不會說\n因為我沒有跟你做董事 也八年了 也吃十年了其實我也沒看你倆說但是你的意思是有對外講這些話然後那一天 副市長你列席嘛 對不對市長你聽懂了 他確實有答覆嘛有答應嘛 所以一個月內嘛\n所以現在不能叫做嚴厲階段不能叫做什麼法律什麼有的沒有的而且那時候我們也提供給你們醫師懲戒辦法22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員醫師懲戒副審委員這個懲戒決議將於執行另一集決議書刊登公報你怎麼要公佈啊你有法條的依據啊法院主治法第83條針對判決或懲戒確定的名單所證為因公開之資訊\n這都沒頂搭的東西,這你弄壞了遺孫啊,況且他剛剛講的第二十五條第一款,過去都用第一款,那第四款你們還是可以用,你們怎麼都不用,到底是在這個地方呢?不過因為他講那些話,當然部長你會生氣啦,但是生氣的前提是什麼原因嘛?他可以說,你如果沒做,你當然是\n你當然就是定義包庇嘛你當然也聽不下去你就無理包庇啊但是你沒有做就會有這個問題發生嘛他就會挑戰你就會質疑你嘛再來他說你可能有些事情不清楚不懂那個不懂是因為他講的那個介入那個平台是單純你所有的醫師你怎麼可以選擇你這個介入你這個不介入你竟然上那個平台哪有在那邊做多重的選擇那當然是醫師是你要去規劃要規劃很清楚啊\n你有公務員資格的醫師你就去刪那個平台沒有公務員資格的你就不需要刪那個平台這個也不是很奇怪一件事情嗎所以我現在在講這個問題是說其實有兩者溝通啦如果遇到這個問題兩者跟一些關心這個委員講得清楚你現在遇到什麼問題嘛現在沒有辦法 一時一刻有辦法處理你還有主動去跟人家說 你如果沒有主動去跟人家說\n你也明知道今天來這個地方一定會遇到的,你早不去嘛,你也不要動手,但是在保證先去,大家說明我清楚,如果有人來這個地方,你問問自己,不知道要不要去回答,你自己也不知道,應該很清楚的,他不說了,還說保證。\n所以這樣處理事情真的是不對啦那我今天要講社會救助法道理一樣啦你看啦我剛剛有特別提到在15年前大修那個就是我主題的啦那個也是我大修的啦但是很難改變當時當時的部長還有當時的次長當時還沒有設修室喔應該是屬於在社會室的底下嘛對不對\n那種舊思維你就是很難去改變它不過我們還是一樣大修了大修六條\n現在最低生活費的標準基本上以前是一致性的 全國是一致性的剛剛熊王委員特別有提到怎麼在這個地方一般縣市跟台北市的對照連基本工資都已經高過了 只有這樣比例所以後來才又改為六都咧以前是五都變成六都嘛那六都就六個標準一般縣市就一般縣市標準離島就離島標準台灣就是八個標準在做處理我們不是沒有因應然後包含這些工業的土地啦 地地利啦我們都有討論過\n那個當然是在規範條件制一旦是會因地制、因狀況去做改變去做審視其實都有相關機制已經都有建制完成了但是為什麼執行到一段時間之後還是會覺得不好用出席之後你說的都很難用難入住你如果對地方站起來你就很清楚\n我們對低收入戶當然我們對一般的百姓在辦行政的作業的時候我們都希望變名嘛對不對講求一些行政的效率嘛那對低收入戶跟中低收入戶你有時候你看他在審查過程裡面而且一年都要複審一次耶不是你結帳給過公司跟同居士給你過就對了你就是英文的耶一年要審查一百耶每一年要審耶\n我們還討論到哪有今年是低收入戶一年的審查一個條件不合格馬上他隔年就不是低收入戶哪有這麼硬的我們都已經討論到這個情況了但是為什麼這個法律這麼大無修正經過十來年他還是必須要修了而且在這個最低的貧窮線我們到底是怎麼去認定我們有沒有符合這個先進的國家還是我們現在的審核標準\n還有包含的這個平融線的這個比例,是跟記者的派出費一致標準,那個人這樣很恐怖,對不對?跟中國東東市對結收,跟中結收給他們的標準,拿來台灣做處理,\n我們有調整 我們有修整 有不是沒有但是調沒有很大 報沒有很寬是不是 當然 我在當主席我聽到你講的很多的隱喻嘛 跟這個面向嘛好啊 那這個可能在開始主條討論的時候可能就要把相關的資料備齊啦 大家來對啦但是這個貧窮率的標準 這個也不是委員會自己生出來的\n依照這樣去參考但是他的整個母數的這樣的一個蒐集的計算到底是怎麼樣我們就把它條例的清清楚楚嘛但是他最後最後顯示出來的表就是這個樣子啊好你可以說沒有我們跟日本的計算不一樣我們跟韓國的納入的患者不一樣跟美國不一樣但總而言之也就是總之各國的貧窮率現在算起來就是這樣了\n我們怎麼會跟人家差這麼多?對不對?日本、韓國、美國、英國我們跟這幾個國家比起來我們的拼求力都不到他們的十分之一台灣真的是互有的國家讓台灣再次強大\n你有寫一個標,有的時候不知道背後是怎麼去計算但是平時出來就是這樣日本要去參考台灣是不是依照這個標準依照你這個貧窮率來計算來參考然後他覺得很驚訝的時候他才會去試就你怎麼去採這些基本的母數的計算方式嘛對不對那我必須講說所謂的虛擬虛擬這一塊就更好笑了其實那個是在防懶人啦\n當時的情境,你好好笑啊,你有基本工作能力啊,只是你自己全部套路啊,我當然也要給你省下去,我要給你試算,我給你試算,你當時試算,試算到多好笑呢,我們十五年前你選擇的時候,他試算是比當時的基本工資還高,\n而且那個得援金你知道嗎?那條款50塊,工資50塊就對了那一百的營養,一個的管制給你營養,可以每個人的資格就對了一次可以刷下500到1000人差50塊而已所以我們就在講說怎麼會有一個低收入跟低收入因為三個條件,其中一個條件然後差個50塊它既然是低收入,明年就不是低收入戶了\n土地的價值也是這樣公告地價也不是他自己去調的是地方政府去調的他多調了幾百塊他原本是低收入戶因為多調了幾百塊他隔年不是低收入戶了然後生戶沒有用咧生戶沒有用那有台灣的法律對家屬比較重家屬那些法律就硬到這麼硬硬到這麼細那我們還有生戶委員會喔\n就變成大家要來承擔相信次長當局長就願意承擔有的就不太願意他覺得就不是這個樣子所以很多面向我們都討論過了我是覺得說大家都一直而且這次版本到30案還比我們那個申請法還更多\n還比鵝托還更多所以大家極為重視社會救助網我知道雁柏嶺還沒有進來但是跟謙虛網都一樣很多人都已經很在意這件事情所以我也希望說衛部可以加快這個腳步因為社會救助進來要救助是要快\n怎麼有可能說委員本門都已經來了你們很多給部長的報告資料競表同意競表同意競表同意也競表同意一半以上了那為什麼你們社會救助法要修正的草案到現在都不進來而且從去年到現在而且當時陳院長的時候也答應歡迎委員這樣就不叫做社會救助法\n是不是不可以聽我說這麼多,我都沒有跟你說過,讓你休息一下,你可以臨時給我回應說,不然你當時在意外,我發現這樣不太有意思。\n謝謝,今天稍微積得很多不管怎麼樣就是加快腳步,因為大家這麼多社會的關心、委員的關心我們請理事督導趕快用最快的適度,來把那個開箱硯板能不能進來這樣子\n不是啦,不是啦,可能是不是可以你再想一下,答覆清楚一點啦是不是一個月內、兩個月內行政院版本可以進來到委員會跟所有的委員版本並讓大家趕快來討論因為畢竟我們討論完之後還要經過三讀嘛然後是不是可以適用於這一個年度的時候在審查低收入跟中低收入標準的時候就可以來適用,這其一嘛那其二我是第二件事情,就剛剛特別想說\n這些被詐騙的受害者基本上會不會可能要立即來召集像內政部、警政署、法務部等相關的單位來做這樣整個社會安全網跟這一塊的破洞會越來越擴大\n我們如果把這些人可以有效的承接起來在心靈上的一個協助啦在整個法律程序上的一個幫忙還有很多的面向就是不要讓他走到像台中這個案例是不是這個可以也肯定答覆我說一個星期內還是兩個星期內因為這要過啦因為這事情會發生這樣 我要講那真的\n有的人會後悔啦他們是坦白講因為時間的關係他們的經濟狀況不是非常不好的後來為什麼他們會走向這樣絕路他沒有去找民意代表\n但是還沒繼續下去,再來他還沒去報警,最後走到這個角落,這就是社會安全幫出問題嘛,我們怎麼減?這不是有一個單位在處理嘛,衛生、聯警政、法政大家一起來嘛,是不是兩個星期內可以召集,然後提出相關的更積極因應的一些作為。\n好 招委所指示的我覺得非常重要我們兩個禮拜來把這件事情召開會議召集相關的單位來針對這個主題來開會再跟招委報告跟委員會好不好 跟委員會報告另外一個社會救助法就是院版的草案是不是一個月內可以吧\n不然你們那些報告給部隊說請表同意請表同意,那都會騙人啊兩國會啦,好不好兩國會兩國會我們先...我先跟人家說好,來你不要跟剛才那個專門要延期延到八月底的人你密謀喔不會啦,我們...他要延到八月底,你剛才說兩國會,我覺得你跟他有談判關係喔\n你注意喔感謝委員啦我們這個博文其實博長也讓我們這裡記得我們真的是要有各界意見嘛我們都真的在加速推動啦那個時間我也知道要趕快撒出來我們趕快來提出來也跟醫院那邊來做報告因為現在已經七月初了嘛對不對對啦你兩個月勢必超過八月底了啦對啊\n我們加速,我們比較快來處理不然我們就8月底前啦你們就先兩個月嘛,差不多一個禮拜而已啊好不好我們下禮拜的日子,我們絕對...現在出庭了,你說兩個月啊\n現在七月七千而已,你八月第二就兩個月,我是跟你拚一個禮拜而已你跟三十人計較一個禮拜,你吃六勞不是啦是不會啦,我們送到行政議辦部辦你要先出來啊我們送到行政議辦這樣啦,先送你行政議辦沒有啦,我是要你一半出來,不是送你行政議辦,是你去對行政議案,我們這叫做理辦議案,你是要對我的啊對啊\n因為我沒有聽歡迎委員剛才的取詢我還不曉得去年他已經跟陳院長已經講過這些事情了那我剛剛特別提到你低收跟他不是只有針對中低跟低收入他還包含吉蘭救助對不對還有重大災害\n所以就是我的整個面向是,當然我知道啦,對啊,所以這是要掛的東西啊,你也不是說,不是說今天開完會就把你掛在兩國,是見證你其實都有在研議嘛,也聽取各界的意見嘛,啊哪有這個時間這麼久的,那就不叫社會救助了啊,就叫做社會緩住啊,\n兩國委你自己說,我現在跟你說一個禮拜,你差這麼多好啊好啊,沒關係,不然你兩國委,兩國委,我你兩國委,你自己說,院辦只要提出來,是提到立法院,不是提到行政院我們趕快那個,趕快來加速啦,這樣好不好沒有這個加速,你的加速,我加速都兩百,你加速是五十\n沒有啦,這位舅舅不可以讓你這樣拖啦,還有生權法\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.559 --> 00:14.229\n好謝謝主席有請部長請邱部長次長一邊上來吧各位好部長好\n\n00:17.074 --> 00:41.139\n這個今天我們當然主要還是要討論社會救助法但是討論社會救助法之前還是會有連結到所謂涉案這涉案的漏洞主政單位陳副換農委員剛剛所講的還是在衛務部所以部長真的會很辛苦部長從事的是醫療背景的專業那當然衛務部涵蓋的包括社會福利、社會救助諸如此類\n\n00:42.069 --> 01:08.715\n坦白講它是一個非常龐大的一個組織跟系統所以部長真的是要多多擔待那當然很多事情可能你的幕僚單位第一個時間應該會要很清楚的明確的提供相關的訊息給你做相關的一些因應跟參考那我特別今天講因為今天有很多人都提到7月2號台灣發生這個旱事因為詐騙的事件導致一家五口\n\n01:09.395 --> 01:29.638\n全部命負謊權這讓人感覺到非常的痛苦也非常的遺憾但是我們如果從這個悲劇裡面記取這個教訓也從衛生單位能否可以接住這個社會安全感的這個洞這個洞可能越來越大\n\n01:30.595 --> 01:52.412\n那越大的情況之下,衛部要承接起來衛部只有單純衛生單位來處理,夠嗎?顯然是不夠的啦,包含警政,包含法務,包含相關的單位都應該要一併進來那我簡單要跟部長提醒這件事情坦白講,這個要從社會救助法,剛剛有委員特別要去把它連結在一塊\n\n01:53.392 --> 02:14.678\n顯然是有困難的好比說社會救助法第21條這次長應該很清楚21條裡面就是所謂的極端救助因為社會救助法裡面我們要救助對象包含低收中低收入戶包含這些極端救助包含這個災害救助等等但是絕對沒有辦法包含這一塊所以社會救助法是沒辦法來承接來協助再來它也沒有包含\n\n02:22.847 --> 02:39.961\n他也沒有報案我說台中這個案例他也沒有報案對不對他也沒有求助警察但是我要表達說像這樣的案件我們不容許再發生但是他還是會持續的因為詐騙導致整個家庭困頓\n\n02:41.522 --> 03:04.115\n導致整個家庭要走向這樣的悲劇在尚未走向悲劇之前他可能會困頓困頓的情況之下可能經濟的困頓可能相關法律上的一些困頓可能還有很多的面向那站在衛生機關可以怎麼樣來主動積極介入協助不要讓他走到像這個台中這樣的一個案例\n\n03:05.086 --> 03:30.494\n我想衛福部這個時間點就必須要有相關的一些去做一些調查跟了解然後第一個時間哪怕法律都還沒有辦法在修正之前我們就要有快速的營業的作為啦所以這個部分我再簡單用兩個例子給各位做參考了台灣的詐騙這個金額已經很高了我就不再贅述但是\n\n03:31.674 --> 03:47.343\n詐騙的被害者目前為止沒有相關的保護措施不僅法務部的犯罪被害人權力保障法沒有輔助連我們的社會救助法特殊監獄家庭這個輔助條例通通沒有辦法精準的去接觸這一群受害者\n\n03:48.304 --> 04:06.217\n然後我說他一定會撐出不窮的來這樣發聲這有些詐騙的民眾他動輒可能是畢生的積蓄一夕之間被詐騙一空化為烏有對他的身心靈的傷害也是非常非常大台中這個例子也是一個實際上的狀況\n\n04:10.260 --> 04:38.255\n去年12月台北市內湖母女遭詐騙1200萬輕生還有基隆許新女子被騙走的畢生積蓄500多萬報警後她有報警喔那最後她還是絕望的輕生等啦所以我講這些案件會層出不窮那因為今天排社會救助法的這個草案的這個大理巡打那當然大家做這樣的連結也算是很正常嘛那這個部分照理講部長在這一塊裡面可能就要\n\n04:39.045 --> 04:56.472\n就要有一些說法的因應那反而反之等一下要去提到這個蘭姨的事情因為這上禮拜又發生她落跑了那為何我會排了相關的這些法案在審查的時候我以為一定會問得到\n\n04:57.318 --> 05:09.866\n一定會問到嘛所以你應該就是都要積極的備戰坦白講是這個樣子嘛所以我今天我今天還特別我因為知道可能有這些事情會發生所以我還特別要求144的市長要到了我不曉得他什麼原因可以不到了\n\n05:15.595 --> 05:37.123\n那一次林靜儀次長是因為部長出國對不對然後當然副市長來列席嘛很正常嘛那林委員他可能也忘了那這次是你部長到當然今天的主責不是議事司不過我是有特別要求議事司司長要到因為上個禮拜朗逸這個事件也吵得灰火洋洋\n\n05:38.792 --> 05:54.638\n這是一個敏感的問題嘛這是一個委員會衛環委員會所有的委員包含不是本委會的委員都會來來問上你幾句啊況且喔況且你再回想一下當時你們在一月份的時候你們市長講什麼話我就覺得你輸掉講話\n\n05:59.199 --> 06:08.326\n我們雜貨人工會做得到,路線會過往是做得到的他講什麼他對外宣稱三個月內將嚴厲揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院等名單當時臥部醫事師師長劉月平也回應現行早已臥有醫師名單要不要公布都很快\n\n06:23.459 --> 06:48.356\n但因在法律討論之下公布到什麼範圍會不會在維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這是傢伙說的對不對後期就是你剛出國的時候嘛那時候是社交域罷的嘛就沒有零次嘛林委員在講的那一個平台跟這個又另外一個城市問題不一樣啦所以當然剛才說久了久了你聽起來他不會說\n\n06:49.116 --> 06:51.999\n因為我沒有跟你做董事也八年了也吃十年了其實我也沒看你倆說但是你的意思是有對外講這些話然後那一天副市長你列席嘛對不對市長你聽懂了他確實有答覆嘛有答應嘛所以一個月內嘛\n\n07:07.375 --> 07:19.583\n所以現在不能叫做嚴厲階段不能叫做什麼法律什麼有的沒有的而且那時候我們也提供給你們醫師懲戒辦法22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員醫師懲戒副審委員這個懲戒決議將於執行另一集決議書刊登公報你怎麼要公佈啊你有法條的依據啊法院主治法第83條針對判決或懲戒確定的名單所證為因公開之資訊\n\n07:37.510 --> 07:56.537\n這都沒頂搭的東西,這你弄壞了遺孫啊,況且他剛剛講的第二十五條第一款,過去都用第一款,那第四款你們還是可以用,你們怎麼都不用,到底是在這個地方呢?不過因為他講那些話,當然部長你會生氣啦,但是生氣的前提是什麼原因嘛?他可以說,你如果沒做,你當然是\n\n07:57.837 --> 08:27.277\n你當然就是定義包庇嘛你當然也聽不下去你就無理包庇啊但是你沒有做就會有這個問題發生嘛他就會挑戰你就會質疑你嘛再來他說你可能有些事情不清楚不懂那個不懂是因為他講的那個介入那個平台是單純你所有的醫師你怎麼可以選擇你這個介入你這個不介入你竟然上那個平台哪有在那邊做多重的選擇那當然是醫師是你要去規劃要規劃很清楚啊\n\n08:28.618 --> 08:49.109\n你有公務員資格的醫師你就去刪那個平台沒有公務員資格的你就不需要刪那個平台這個也不是很奇怪一件事情嗎所以我現在在講這個問題是說其實有兩者溝通啦如果遇到這個問題兩者跟一些關心這個委員講得清楚你現在遇到什麼問題嘛現在沒有辦法一時一刻有辦法處理你還有主動去跟人家說你如果沒有主動去跟人家說\n\n08:56.341 --> 09:10.352\n你也明知道今天來這個地方一定會遇到的,你早不去嘛,你也不要動手,但是在保證先去,大家說明我清楚,如果有人來這個地方,你問問自己,不知道要不要去回答,你自己也不知道,應該很清楚的,他不說了,還說保證。\n\n09:15.034 --> 09:32.481\n所以這樣處理事情真的是不對啦那我今天要講社會救助法道理一樣啦你看啦我剛剛有特別提到在15年前大修那個就是我主題的啦那個也是我大修的啦但是很難改變當時當時的部長還有當時的次長當時還沒有設修室喔應該是屬於在社會室的底下嘛對不對\n\n09:41.405 --> 09:46.495\n那種舊思維你就是很難去改變它不過我們還是一樣大修了大修六條\n\n09:47.601 --> 10:15.680\n現在最低生活費的標準基本上以前是一致性的全國是一致性的剛剛熊王委員特別有提到怎麼在這個地方一般縣市跟台北市的對照連基本工資都已經高過了只有這樣比例所以後來才又改為六都咧以前是五都變成六都嘛那六都就六個標準一般縣市就一般縣市標準離島就離島標準台灣就是八個標準在做處理我們不是沒有因應然後包含這些工業的土地啦地地利啦我們都有討論過\n\n10:16.912 --> 10:40.722\n那個當然是在規範條件制一旦是會因地制、因狀況去做改變去做審視其實都有相關機制已經都有建制完成了但是為什麼執行到一段時間之後還是會覺得不好用出席之後你說的都很難用難入住你如果對地方站起來你就很清楚\n\n10:43.513 --> 11:05.313\n我們對低收入戶當然我們對一般的百姓在辦行政的作業的時候我們都希望變名嘛對不對講求一些行政的效率嘛那對低收入戶跟中低收入戶你有時候你看他在審查過程裡面而且一年都要複審一次耶不是你結帳給過公司跟同居士給你過就對了你就是英文的耶一年要審查一百耶每一年要審耶\n\n11:08.257 --> 11:35.234\n我們還討論到哪有今年是低收入戶一年的審查一個條件不合格馬上他隔年就不是低收入戶哪有這麼硬的我們都已經討論到這個情況了但是為什麼這個法律這麼大無修正經過十來年他還是必須要修了而且在這個最低的貧窮線我們到底是怎麼去認定我們有沒有符合這個先進的國家還是我們現在的審核標準\n\n11:37.230 --> 11:41.834\n還有包含的這個平融線的這個比例,是跟記者的派出費一致標準,那個人這樣很恐怖,對不對?跟中國東東市對結收,跟中結收給他們的標準,拿來台灣做處理,\n\n11:53.189 --> 12:20.312\n我們有調整我們有修整有不是沒有但是調沒有很大報沒有很寬是不是當然我在當主席我聽到你講的很多的隱喻嘛跟這個面向嘛好啊那這個可能在開始主條討論的時候可能就要把相關的資料備齊啦大家來對啦但是這個貧窮率的標準這個也不是委員會自己生出來的\n\n12:21.345 --> 12:33.054\n依照這樣去參考但是他的整個母數的這樣的一個蒐集的計算到底是怎麼樣我們就把它條例的清清楚楚嘛但是他最後最後顯示出來的表就是這個樣子啊好你可以說沒有我們跟日本的計算不一樣我們跟韓國的納入的患者不一樣跟美國不一樣但總而言之也就是總之各國的貧窮率現在算起來就是這樣了\n\n12:47.762 --> 13:02.050\n我們怎麼會跟人家差這麼多?對不對?日本、韓國、美國、英國我們跟這幾個國家比起來我們的拼求力都不到他們的十分之一台灣真的是互有的國家讓台灣再次強大\n\n13:06.554 --> 13:34.046\n你有寫一個標,有的時候不知道背後是怎麼去計算但是平時出來就是這樣日本要去參考台灣是不是依照這個標準依照你這個貧窮率來計算來參考然後他覺得很驚訝的時候他才會去試就你怎麼去採這些基本的母數的計算方式嘛對不對那我必須講說所謂的虛擬虛擬這一塊就更好笑了其實那個是在防懶人啦\n\n13:36.042 --> 13:53.278\n當時的情境,你好好笑啊,你有基本工作能力啊,只是你自己全部套路啊,我當然也要給你省下去,我要給你試算,我給你試算,你當時試算,試算到多好笑呢,我們十五年前你選擇的時候,他試算是比當時的基本工資還高,\n\n13:54.605 --> 14:07.173\n而且那個得援金你知道嗎?那條款50塊,工資50塊就對了那一百的營養,一個的管制給你營養,可以每個人的資格就對了一次可以刷下500到1000人差50塊而已所以我們就在講說怎麼會有一個低收入跟低收入因為三個條件,其中一個條件然後差個50塊它既然是低收入,明年就不是低收入戶了\n\n14:22.353 --> 14:34.236\n土地的價值也是這樣公告地價也不是他自己去調的是地方政府去調的他多調了幾百塊他原本是低收入戶因為多調了幾百塊他隔年不是低收入戶了然後生戶沒有用咧生戶沒有用那有台灣的法律對家屬比較重家屬那些法律就硬到這麼硬硬到這麼細那我們還有生戶委員會喔\n\n14:50.350 --> 15:08.646\n就變成大家要來承擔相信次長當局長就願意承擔有的就不太願意他覺得就不是這個樣子所以很多面向我們都討論過了我是覺得說大家都一直而且這次版本到30案還比我們那個申請法還更多\n\n15:10.852 --> 15:27.423\n還比鵝托還更多所以大家極為重視社會救助網我知道雁柏嶺還沒有進來但是跟謙虛網都一樣很多人都已經很在意這件事情所以我也希望說衛部可以加快這個腳步因為社會救助進來要救助是要快\n\n15:33.121 --> 15:58.008\n怎麼有可能說委員本門都已經來了你們很多給部長的報告資料競表同意競表同意競表同意也競表同意一半以上了那為什麼你們社會救助法要修正的草案到現在都不進來而且從去年到現在而且當時陳院長的時候也答應歡迎委員這樣就不叫做社會救助法\n\n16:01.607 --> 16:05.952\n是不是不可以聽我說這麼多,我都沒有跟你說過,讓你休息一下,你可以臨時給我回應說,不然你當時在意外,我發現這樣不太有意思。\n\n16:15.534 --> 16:40.767\n謝謝,今天稍微積得很多不管怎麼樣就是加快腳步,因為大家這麼多社會的關心、委員的關心我們請理事督導趕快用最快的適度,來把那個開箱硯板能不能進來這樣子\n\n16:42.571 --> 17:07.603\n不是啦,不是啦,可能是不是可以你再想一下,答覆清楚一點啦是不是一個月內、兩個月內行政院版本可以進來到委員會跟所有的委員版本並讓大家趕快來討論因為畢竟我們討論完之後還要經過三讀嘛然後是不是可以適用於這一個年度的時候在審查低收入跟中低收入標準的時候就可以來適用,這其一嘛那其二我是第二件事情,就剛剛特別想說\n\n17:08.423 --> 17:23.563\n這些被詐騙的受害者基本上會不會可能要立即來召集像內政部、警政署、法務部等相關的單位來做這樣整個社會安全網跟這一塊的破洞會越來越擴大\n\n17:24.324 --> 17:47.976\n我們如果把這些人可以有效的承接起來在心靈上的一個協助啦在整個法律程序上的一個幫忙還有很多的面向就是不要讓他走到像台中這個案例是不是這個可以也肯定答覆我說一個星期內還是兩個星期內因為這要過啦因為這事情會發生這樣我要講那真的\n\n17:50.572 --> 17:57.315\n有的人會後悔啦他們是坦白講因為時間的關係他們的經濟狀況不是非常不好的後來為什麼他們會走向這樣絕路他沒有去找民意代表\n\n18:08.789 --> 18:31.027\n但是還沒繼續下去,再來他還沒去報警,最後走到這個角落,這就是社會安全幫出問題嘛,我們怎麼減?這不是有一個單位在處理嘛,衛生、聯警政、法政大家一起來嘛,是不是兩個星期內可以召集,然後提出相關的更積極因應的一些作為。\n\n18:33.248 --> 18:56.901\n好招委所指示的我覺得非常重要我們兩個禮拜來把這件事情召開會議召集相關的單位來針對這個主題來開會再跟招委報告跟委員會好不好跟委員會報告另外一個社會救助法就是院版的草案是不是一個月內可以吧\n\n18:59.176 --> 19:21.057\n不然你們那些報告給部隊說請表同意請表同意,那都會騙人啊兩國會啦,好不好兩國會兩國會我們先...我先跟人家說好,來你不要跟剛才那個專門要延期延到八月底的人你密謀喔不會啦,我們...他要延到八月底,你剛才說兩國會,我覺得你跟他有談判關係喔\n\n19:23.342 --> 19:50.841\n你注意喔感謝委員啦我們這個博文其實博長也讓我們這裡記得我們真的是要有各界意見嘛我們都真的在加速推動啦那個時間我也知道要趕快撒出來我們趕快來提出來也跟醫院那邊來做報告因為現在已經七月初了嘛對不對對啦你兩個月勢必超過八月底了啦對啊\n\n19:53.991 --> 20:06.584\n我們加速,我們比較快來處理不然我們就8月底前啦你們就先兩個月嘛,差不多一個禮拜而已啊好不好我們下禮拜的日子,我們絕對...現在出庭了,你說兩個月啊\n\n20:10.510 --> 20:22.394\n現在七月七千而已,你八月第二就兩個月,我是跟你拚一個禮拜而已你跟三十人計較一個禮拜,你吃六勞不是啦是不會啦,我們送到行政議辦部辦你要先出來啊我們送到行政議辦這樣啦,先送你行政議辦沒有啦,我是要你一半出來,不是送你行政議辦,是你去對行政議案,我們這叫做理辦議案,你是要對我的啊對啊\n\n20:43.820 --> 20:58.393\n因為我沒有聽歡迎委員剛才的取詢我還不曉得去年他已經跟陳院長已經講過這些事情了那我剛剛特別提到你低收跟他不是只有針對中低跟低收入他還包含吉蘭救助對不對還有重大災害\n\n21:01.792 --> 21:20.679\n所以就是我的整個面向是,當然我知道啦,對啊,所以這是要掛的東西啊,你也不是說,不是說今天開完會就把你掛在兩國,是見證你其實都有在研議嘛,也聽取各界的意見嘛,啊哪有這個時間這麼久的,那就不叫社會救助了啊,就叫做社會緩住啊,\n\n21:25.670 --> 21:43.307\n兩國委你自己說,我現在跟你說一個禮拜,你差這麼多好啊好啊,沒關係,不然你兩國委,兩國委,我你兩國委,你自己說,院辦只要提出來,是提到立法院,不是提到行政院我們趕快那個,趕快來加速啦,這樣好不好沒有這個加速,你的加速,我加速都兩百,你加速是五十\n\n21:45.646 --> 21:48.751\n沒有啦,這位舅舅不可以讓你這樣拖啦,還有生權法\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.559,"end":14.229,"text":"好謝謝主席有請部長請邱部長次長一邊上來吧各位好部長好"},{"start":17.074,"end":41.139,"text":"這個今天我們當然主要還是要討論社會救助法但是討論社會救助法之前還是會有連結到所謂涉案這涉案的漏洞主政單位陳副換農委員剛剛所講的還是在衛務部所以部長真的會很辛苦部長從事的是醫療背景的專業那當然衛務部涵蓋的包括社會福利、社會救助諸如此類"},{"start":42.069,"end":68.715,"text":"坦白講它是一個非常龐大的一個組織跟系統所以部長真的是要多多擔待那當然很多事情可能你的幕僚單位第一個時間應該會要很清楚的明確的提供相關的訊息給你做相關的一些因應跟參考那我特別今天講因為今天有很多人都提到7月2號台灣發生這個旱事因為詐騙的事件導致一家五口"},{"start":69.395,"end":89.638,"text":"全部命負謊權這讓人感覺到非常的痛苦也非常的遺憾但是我們如果從這個悲劇裡面記取這個教訓也從衛生單位能否可以接住這個社會安全感的這個洞這個洞可能越來越大"},{"start":90.595,"end":112.412,"text":"那越大的情況之下,衛部要承接起來衛部只有單純衛生單位來處理,夠嗎?顯然是不夠的啦,包含警政,包含法務,包含相關的單位都應該要一併進來那我簡單要跟部長提醒這件事情坦白講,這個要從社會救助法,剛剛有委員特別要去把它連結在一塊"},{"start":113.392,"end":134.678,"text":"顯然是有困難的好比說社會救助法第21條這次長應該很清楚21條裡面就是所謂的極端救助因為社會救助法裡面我們要救助對象包含低收中低收入戶包含這些極端救助包含這個災害救助等等但是絕對沒有辦法包含這一塊所以社會救助法是沒辦法來承接來協助再來它也沒有包含"},{"start":142.847,"end":159.961,"text":"他也沒有報案我說台中這個案例他也沒有報案對不對他也沒有求助警察但是我要表達說像這樣的案件我們不容許再發生但是他還是會持續的因為詐騙導致整個家庭困頓"},{"start":161.522,"end":184.115,"text":"導致整個家庭要走向這樣的悲劇在尚未走向悲劇之前他可能會困頓困頓的情況之下可能經濟的困頓可能相關法律上的一些困頓可能還有很多的面向那站在衛生機關可以怎麼樣來主動積極介入協助不要讓他走到像這個台中這樣的一個案例"},{"start":185.086,"end":210.494,"text":"我想衛福部這個時間點就必須要有相關的一些去做一些調查跟了解然後第一個時間哪怕法律都還沒有辦法在修正之前我們就要有快速的營業的作為啦所以這個部分我再簡單用兩個例子給各位做參考了台灣的詐騙這個金額已經很高了我就不再贅述但是"},{"start":211.674,"end":227.343,"text":"詐騙的被害者目前為止沒有相關的保護措施不僅法務部的犯罪被害人權力保障法沒有輔助連我們的社會救助法特殊監獄家庭這個輔助條例通通沒有辦法精準的去接觸這一群受害者"},{"start":228.304,"end":246.217,"text":"然後我說他一定會撐出不窮的來這樣發聲這有些詐騙的民眾他動輒可能是畢生的積蓄一夕之間被詐騙一空化為烏有對他的身心靈的傷害也是非常非常大台中這個例子也是一個實際上的狀況"},{"start":250.26,"end":278.255,"text":"去年12月台北市內湖母女遭詐騙1200萬輕生還有基隆許新女子被騙走的畢生積蓄500多萬報警後 她有報警喔那最後她還是絕望的輕生 等啦所以我講這些案件會層出不窮那因為今天排社會救助法的這個草案的這個大理巡打那當然大家做這樣的連結也算是很正常嘛那這個部分 照理講部長在這一塊裡面可能就要"},{"start":279.045,"end":296.472,"text":"就要有一些說法的因應那反而 反之 等一下要去提到這個蘭姨的事情因為這上禮拜又發生 她落跑了那為何我會排了相關的這些法案在審查的時候我以為一定會問得到"},{"start":297.318,"end":309.866,"text":"一定會問到嘛所以你應該就是都要積極的備戰坦白講是這個樣子嘛所以我今天我今天還特別我因為知道可能有這些事情會發生所以我還特別要求144的市長要到了我不曉得他什麼原因可以不到了"},{"start":315.595,"end":337.123,"text":"那一次林靜儀次長是因為部長出國對不對然後當然副市長來列席嘛 很正常嘛那林委員他可能也忘了那這次是你部長到當然今天的主責不是議事司不過我是有特別要求議事司司長要到因為上個禮拜 朗逸這個事件也吵得灰火洋洋"},{"start":338.792,"end":354.638,"text":"這是一個敏感的問題嘛這是一個委員會 衛環委員會所有的委員包含不是本委會的委員都會來來問上你幾句啊況且喔 況且你再回想一下當時你們在一月份的時候你們市長講什麼話我就覺得你輸掉講話"},{"start":359.199,"end":368.326,"text":"我們雜貨人工會做得到,路線會過往是做得到的他講什麼他對外宣稱三個月內將嚴厲揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院等名單當時臥部醫事師師長劉月平也回應現行早已臥有醫師名單要不要公布都很快"},{"start":383.459,"end":408.356,"text":"但因在法律討論之下公布到什麼範圍會不會在維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這是傢伙說的對不對後期就是你剛出國的時候嘛那時候是社交域罷的嘛就沒有零次嘛林委員在講的那一個平台跟這個又另外一個城市問題不一樣啦所以當然剛才說久了久了你聽起來他不會說"},{"start":409.116,"end":411.999,"text":"因為我沒有跟你做董事 也八年了 也吃十年了其實我也沒看你倆說但是你的意思是有對外講這些話然後那一天 副市長你列席嘛 對不對市長你聽懂了 他確實有答覆嘛有答應嘛 所以一個月內嘛"},{"start":427.375,"end":439.583,"text":"所以現在不能叫做嚴厲階段不能叫做什麼法律什麼有的沒有的而且那時候我們也提供給你們醫師懲戒辦法22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員醫師懲戒副審委員這個懲戒決議將於執行另一集決議書刊登公報你怎麼要公佈啊你有法條的依據啊法院主治法第83條針對判決或懲戒確定的名單所證為因公開之資訊"},{"start":457.51,"end":476.537,"text":"這都沒頂搭的東西,這你弄壞了遺孫啊,況且他剛剛講的第二十五條第一款,過去都用第一款,那第四款你們還是可以用,你們怎麼都不用,到底是在這個地方呢?不過因為他講那些話,當然部長你會生氣啦,但是生氣的前提是什麼原因嘛?他可以說,你如果沒做,你當然是"},{"start":477.837,"end":507.277,"text":"你當然就是定義包庇嘛你當然也聽不下去你就無理包庇啊但是你沒有做就會有這個問題發生嘛他就會挑戰你就會質疑你嘛再來他說你可能有些事情不清楚不懂那個不懂是因為他講的那個介入那個平台是單純你所有的醫師你怎麼可以選擇你這個介入你這個不介入你竟然上那個平台哪有在那邊做多重的選擇那當然是醫師是你要去規劃要規劃很清楚啊"},{"start":508.618,"end":529.109,"text":"你有公務員資格的醫師你就去刪那個平台沒有公務員資格的你就不需要刪那個平台這個也不是很奇怪一件事情嗎所以我現在在講這個問題是說其實有兩者溝通啦如果遇到這個問題兩者跟一些關心這個委員講得清楚你現在遇到什麼問題嘛現在沒有辦法 一時一刻有辦法處理你還有主動去跟人家說 你如果沒有主動去跟人家說"},{"start":536.341,"end":550.352,"text":"你也明知道今天來這個地方一定會遇到的,你早不去嘛,你也不要動手,但是在保證先去,大家說明我清楚,如果有人來這個地方,你問問自己,不知道要不要去回答,你自己也不知道,應該很清楚的,他不說了,還說保證。"},{"start":555.034,"end":572.481,"text":"所以這樣處理事情真的是不對啦那我今天要講社會救助法道理一樣啦你看啦我剛剛有特別提到在15年前大修那個就是我主題的啦那個也是我大修的啦但是很難改變當時當時的部長還有當時的次長當時還沒有設修室喔應該是屬於在社會室的底下嘛對不對"},{"start":581.405,"end":586.495,"text":"那種舊思維你就是很難去改變它不過我們還是一樣大修了大修六條"},{"start":587.601,"end":615.68,"text":"現在最低生活費的標準基本上以前是一致性的 全國是一致性的剛剛熊王委員特別有提到怎麼在這個地方一般縣市跟台北市的對照連基本工資都已經高過了 只有這樣比例所以後來才又改為六都咧以前是五都變成六都嘛那六都就六個標準一般縣市就一般縣市標準離島就離島標準台灣就是八個標準在做處理我們不是沒有因應然後包含這些工業的土地啦 地地利啦我們都有討論過"},{"start":616.912,"end":640.722,"text":"那個當然是在規範條件制一旦是會因地制、因狀況去做改變去做審視其實都有相關機制已經都有建制完成了但是為什麼執行到一段時間之後還是會覺得不好用出席之後你說的都很難用難入住你如果對地方站起來你就很清楚"},{"start":643.513,"end":665.313,"text":"我們對低收入戶當然我們對一般的百姓在辦行政的作業的時候我們都希望變名嘛對不對講求一些行政的效率嘛那對低收入戶跟中低收入戶你有時候你看他在審查過程裡面而且一年都要複審一次耶不是你結帳給過公司跟同居士給你過就對了你就是英文的耶一年要審查一百耶每一年要審耶"},{"start":668.257,"end":695.234,"text":"我們還討論到哪有今年是低收入戶一年的審查一個條件不合格馬上他隔年就不是低收入戶哪有這麼硬的我們都已經討論到這個情況了但是為什麼這個法律這麼大無修正經過十來年他還是必須要修了而且在這個最低的貧窮線我們到底是怎麼去認定我們有沒有符合這個先進的國家還是我們現在的審核標準"},{"start":697.23,"end":701.834,"text":"還有包含的這個平融線的這個比例,是跟記者的派出費一致標準,那個人這樣很恐怖,對不對?跟中國東東市對結收,跟中結收給他們的標準,拿來台灣做處理,"},{"start":713.189,"end":740.312,"text":"我們有調整 我們有修整 有不是沒有但是調沒有很大 報沒有很寬是不是 當然 我在當主席我聽到你講的很多的隱喻嘛 跟這個面向嘛好啊 那這個可能在開始主條討論的時候可能就要把相關的資料備齊啦 大家來對啦但是這個貧窮率的標準 這個也不是委員會自己生出來的"},{"start":741.345,"end":753.054,"text":"依照這樣去參考但是他的整個母數的這樣的一個蒐集的計算到底是怎麼樣我們就把它條例的清清楚楚嘛但是他最後最後顯示出來的表就是這個樣子啊好你可以說沒有我們跟日本的計算不一樣我們跟韓國的納入的患者不一樣跟美國不一樣但總而言之也就是總之各國的貧窮率現在算起來就是這樣了"},{"start":767.762,"end":782.05,"text":"我們怎麼會跟人家差這麼多?對不對?日本、韓國、美國、英國我們跟這幾個國家比起來我們的拼求力都不到他們的十分之一台灣真的是互有的國家讓台灣再次強大"},{"start":786.554,"end":814.046,"text":"你有寫一個標,有的時候不知道背後是怎麼去計算但是平時出來就是這樣日本要去參考台灣是不是依照這個標準依照你這個貧窮率來計算來參考然後他覺得很驚訝的時候他才會去試就你怎麼去採這些基本的母數的計算方式嘛對不對那我必須講說所謂的虛擬虛擬這一塊就更好笑了其實那個是在防懶人啦"},{"start":816.042,"end":833.278,"text":"當時的情境,你好好笑啊,你有基本工作能力啊,只是你自己全部套路啊,我當然也要給你省下去,我要給你試算,我給你試算,你當時試算,試算到多好笑呢,我們十五年前你選擇的時候,他試算是比當時的基本工資還高,"},{"start":834.605,"end":847.173,"text":"而且那個得援金你知道嗎?那條款50塊,工資50塊就對了那一百的營養,一個的管制給你營養,可以每個人的資格就對了一次可以刷下500到1000人差50塊而已所以我們就在講說怎麼會有一個低收入跟低收入因為三個條件,其中一個條件然後差個50塊它既然是低收入,明年就不是低收入戶了"},{"start":862.353,"end":874.236,"text":"土地的價值也是這樣公告地價也不是他自己去調的是地方政府去調的他多調了幾百塊他原本是低收入戶因為多調了幾百塊他隔年不是低收入戶了然後生戶沒有用咧生戶沒有用那有台灣的法律對家屬比較重家屬那些法律就硬到這麼硬硬到這麼細那我們還有生戶委員會喔"},{"start":890.35,"end":908.646,"text":"就變成大家要來承擔相信次長當局長就願意承擔有的就不太願意他覺得就不是這個樣子所以很多面向我們都討論過了我是覺得說大家都一直而且這次版本到30案還比我們那個申請法還更多"},{"start":910.852,"end":927.423,"text":"還比鵝托還更多所以大家極為重視社會救助網我知道雁柏嶺還沒有進來但是跟謙虛網都一樣很多人都已經很在意這件事情所以我也希望說衛部可以加快這個腳步因為社會救助進來要救助是要快"},{"start":933.121,"end":958.008,"text":"怎麼有可能說委員本門都已經來了你們很多給部長的報告資料競表同意競表同意競表同意也競表同意一半以上了那為什麼你們社會救助法要修正的草案到現在都不進來而且從去年到現在而且當時陳院長的時候也答應歡迎委員這樣就不叫做社會救助法"},{"start":961.607,"end":965.952,"text":"是不是不可以聽我說這麼多,我都沒有跟你說過,讓你休息一下,你可以臨時給我回應說,不然你當時在意外,我發現這樣不太有意思。"},{"start":975.534,"end":1000.767,"text":"謝謝,今天稍微積得很多不管怎麼樣就是加快腳步,因為大家這麼多社會的關心、委員的關心我們請理事督導趕快用最快的適度,來把那個開箱硯板能不能進來這樣子"},{"start":1002.571,"end":1027.603,"text":"不是啦,不是啦,可能是不是可以你再想一下,答覆清楚一點啦是不是一個月內、兩個月內行政院版本可以進來到委員會跟所有的委員版本並讓大家趕快來討論因為畢竟我們討論完之後還要經過三讀嘛然後是不是可以適用於這一個年度的時候在審查低收入跟中低收入標準的時候就可以來適用,這其一嘛那其二我是第二件事情,就剛剛特別想說"},{"start":1028.423,"end":1043.563,"text":"這些被詐騙的受害者基本上會不會可能要立即來召集像內政部、警政署、法務部等相關的單位來做這樣整個社會安全網跟這一塊的破洞會越來越擴大"},{"start":1044.324,"end":1067.976,"text":"我們如果把這些人可以有效的承接起來在心靈上的一個協助啦在整個法律程序上的一個幫忙還有很多的面向就是不要讓他走到像台中這個案例是不是這個可以也肯定答覆我說一個星期內還是兩個星期內因為這要過啦因為這事情會發生這樣 我要講那真的"},{"start":1070.572,"end":1077.315,"text":"有的人會後悔啦他們是坦白講因為時間的關係他們的經濟狀況不是非常不好的後來為什麼他們會走向這樣絕路他沒有去找民意代表"},{"start":1088.789,"end":1111.027,"text":"但是還沒繼續下去,再來他還沒去報警,最後走到這個角落,這就是社會安全幫出問題嘛,我們怎麼減?這不是有一個單位在處理嘛,衛生、聯警政、法政大家一起來嘛,是不是兩個星期內可以召集,然後提出相關的更積極因應的一些作為。"},{"start":1113.248,"end":1136.901,"text":"好 招委所指示的我覺得非常重要我們兩個禮拜來把這件事情召開會議召集相關的單位來針對這個主題來開會再跟招委報告跟委員會好不好 跟委員會報告另外一個社會救助法就是院版的草案是不是一個月內可以吧"},{"start":1139.176,"end":1161.057,"text":"不然你們那些報告給部隊說請表同意請表同意,那都會騙人啊兩國會啦,好不好兩國會兩國會我們先...我先跟人家說好,來你不要跟剛才那個專門要延期延到八月底的人你密謀喔不會啦,我們...他要延到八月底,你剛才說兩國會,我覺得你跟他有談判關係喔"},{"start":1163.342,"end":1190.841,"text":"你注意喔感謝委員啦我們這個博文其實博長也讓我們這裡記得我們真的是要有各界意見嘛我們都真的在加速推動啦那個時間我也知道要趕快撒出來我們趕快來提出來也跟醫院那邊來做報告因為現在已經七月初了嘛對不對對啦你兩個月勢必超過八月底了啦對啊"},{"start":1193.991,"end":1206.584,"text":"我們加速,我們比較快來處理不然我們就8月底前啦你們就先兩個月嘛,差不多一個禮拜而已啊好不好我們下禮拜的日子,我們絕對...現在出庭了,你說兩個月啊"},{"start":1210.51,"end":1222.394,"text":"現在七月七千而已,你八月第二就兩個月,我是跟你拚一個禮拜而已你跟三十人計較一個禮拜,你吃六勞不是啦是不會啦,我們送到行政議辦部辦你要先出來啊我們送到行政議辦這樣啦,先送你行政議辦沒有啦,我是要你一半出來,不是送你行政議辦,是你去對行政議案,我們這叫做理辦議案,你是要對我的啊對啊"},{"start":1243.82,"end":1258.393,"text":"因為我沒有聽歡迎委員剛才的取詢我還不曉得去年他已經跟陳院長已經講過這些事情了那我剛剛特別提到你低收跟他不是只有針對中低跟低收入他還包含吉蘭救助對不對還有重大災害"},{"start":1261.792,"end":1280.679,"text":"所以就是我的整個面向是,當然我知道啦,對啊,所以這是要掛的東西啊,你也不是說,不是說今天開完會就把你掛在兩國,是見證你其實都有在研議嘛,也聽取各界的意見嘛,啊哪有這個時間這麼久的,那就不叫社會救助了啊,就叫做社會緩住啊,"},{"start":1285.67,"end":1303.307,"text":"兩國委你自己說,我現在跟你說一個禮拜,你差這麼多好啊好啊,沒關係,不然你兩國委,兩國委,我你兩國委,你自己說,院辦只要提出來,是提到立法院,不是提到行政院我們趕快那個,趕快來加速啦,這樣好不好沒有這個加速,你的加速,我加速都兩百,你加速是五十"},{"start":1305.646,"end":1308.751,"text":"沒有啦,這位舅舅不可以讓你這樣拖啦,還有生權法"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1394,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時53分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["劉委員建國：次長一併上來吧！"],["邱部長泰源：召委好！"],["劉委員建國：部長好！今天我們當然主要還是要討論社會救助法，但是討論社會救助法之前，還是會連結到所謂的社安，社安漏洞的主政單位誠如范雲委員剛剛所講的，還是在衛福部，所以部長真的會很辛苦，部長從事的是醫療背景的專業，但是衛福部涵蓋的包含社會福利、社會救助，諸如此類，坦白講，它是一個非常龐大的組織與系統，所以部長真的是要多多擔待，當然很多事情可能你的幕僚單位第一個時間應該要很清楚的、明確的提供相關訊息給你做相關的因應及參考。","我今天特別講，今天有很多人都提到7月2日臺灣發生的這個憾事，因為詐騙的事件導致一家五口全部命赴黃泉，這讓人感覺到非常的痛苦，也非常的遺憾！但是我們如何從這個悲劇裡面記取教訓，也了解衛生單位能否接住，社會安全網的這個洞可能會越來越大、越來越大的情況之下，衛福部要承接起來，單純只有衛生單位來處理夠嗎？顯然是不夠的，包含警政、包含法務、包含相關單位，都應該要一併進來。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：我要跟部長簡單提醒的這件事情，坦白講，剛剛有委員特別要把這個與社會救助法連結在一塊，顯然是有困難的！好比社會救助法第二十一條，次長應該很清楚，第二十一條裡面就是所謂的急難救助……"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：因為社會救助法裡面要救助的對象包含低收入戶、中低收入戶，包含急難救助、包含災害救助等等，但是絕對沒有包含這一塊，所以社會救助法是沒辦法來承接協助的。再來，他也沒有報案，我說現在臺中這個案例，他也沒有報案，對不對？他也沒有求助警察。","我要表達的是像這樣的案件，我們不容許再發生，但是它還是會持續的，因為詐騙導致整個家庭困頓，導致整個家庭走向這樣的悲劇，在尚未走向悲劇之前，他可能會困頓，困頓的情況之下，可能經濟的困頓、可能相關法律上的困頓、可能還有很多的面向，那站在衛生機關可以怎麼樣來主動積極介入協助，不要讓他走到像臺中這樣的案例？我想衛福部這個時間點就必須要去做一些相關的調查及了解，然後第一個時間就要有快速的因應作為，哪怕法律都還沒有再修正之前。這個部分我再簡單用兩個例子給各位做參考。","臺灣的被詐騙金額已經很高了，我就不再贅述，但是對詐騙的被害者，目前為止沒有相關的保護措施，不僅法務部的犯罪被害人權益保障法沒有扶助，連社會救助法、特殊境遇家庭扶助條例，通通沒有辦法精準的去接住這一群受害者。我說它一定會層出不窮的發生，因為有些受詐騙的民眾動輒可能是畢生積蓄一夕之間被詐騙一空，化為烏有，這對他的身心靈傷害都是非常、非常大，臺中的這個例子也是一個實際上的狀況；去年12月臺北市內湖也發生母女遭詐騙1,200萬而輕生；還有基隆許姓女子被騙走畢生積蓄五百多萬，報警後，他有報警，最後還是絕望輕生，所以我講這些案件會層出不窮。","因為今天排社會救助法條文修正草案的大體詢答，當然大家要做這樣的連結也算是很正常，這個部分照理講，部長可能要有一些說法來因應。","另外，也會提到這個狼醫的事情，因為上禮拜又發生他落跑了。今天衛環委員會排了相關的法案在審查，委員一定會問到，所以你應該都要積極的備戰，坦白講，是這個樣子。因為我知道可能有這些事情會發生，所以我今天還特別要求醫事司司長要到，我不曉得他什麼原因可以不到。那一次林靜儀次長來列席是因為部長出國，對不對？當時副司長來列席很正常，林委員可能也忘了。這次是部長到，當然今天法案的主責不是醫事司，不過我是有特別要求醫事司司長要到，因為上個禮拜狼醫這個事件也吵得沸沸揚揚，這是一個敏感的問題，這是衛環委員會所有委員，包含不是本委員會的委員都會來問上你幾句啊！","況且你再回想一下，1月的時候你們司長講什麼話？部長，這是你們司長講的話，我們男人講到做到，女性官員一樣也是要講到做到，他講什麼？他對外宣稱，3個月內將研議建置揭露平臺，公布不良醫師、醫院等名單。當時衛福部醫事司司長劉越萍也回應，現行早已握有醫師名單，要不要公布都很快，但應在法律之下討論公布到什麼範圍，衛福部在維護民眾就醫權利之下盡快完成。這是召委講的話，對不對？5月那個時候剛好是你出國的時候，當時是蘇召委排的，就問林次。林委員在講的那一個平臺又是另外一個層次的問題，和這一個不一樣。所以當然他剛才說了幾句話，你聽起來，坦白說，因為我跟你當同事也8年了，認識你也十多年了，其實我也沒看過你抓狂，但是你的醫事司有對外講這些話，然後那一天副司長有列席對不對？次長也聽懂了，他確實也有答復，有答應一個月內。所以現在不能叫做研議階段，不能叫做什麼法律、什麼有的沒有的，而且那時候我們也提供給你，醫師懲戒辦法第二十二條規定「主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員會、醫師懲戒覆審委員之懲戒決議，應將執行命令及決議書刊登公報」，你早就要公布了，你有法條的依據啊！還有法院組織法第八十三條規定，針對判決或懲戒確定的名單屬政府應公開之資訊。這些都是沒有爭議的東西，你們都有法律依循，何況他剛剛講的，過去都用第二十五條第一款，但第四款你們還是可以用，你們怎麼都不用？道理是在這個地方啦！","不過因為他講那些話，當然部長你會生氣，但是生氣的前提是什麼原因？他說你如果沒做，你等於就是包庇，你當然聽不下去，你就沒有包庇啊！但是你沒做就會有這個問題發生嘛！他就會挑戰你、就會質疑你嘛！再來，他說你可能有些事情不清楚、不懂，那是因為他講的建那個平臺，所有的醫師怎麼可以選擇這個揭露、這個不揭露？你既然上那個平臺，怎麼可以在那邊做多重選擇？當然是醫事司要去規劃、要規劃得很清楚，有公務人員資格的醫師就去上那個平臺，沒有公務人員資格的就不需要上那個平臺，這個不是也是很奇怪的一件事情嗎？","所以我現在講這個問題就是說，其實如果有提早溝通，遇到這個問題時提早跟一些關心這個的委員講清楚你現在遇到什麼問題，為什麼一時半刻沒辦法一起處理，你有主動去跟人家講嗎？你也沒有主動去跟人家講啊！對不對？你也明知道今天來這個地方一定會遇到的，你跑不掉的嘛！你也不提早替部長先去跟大家說明清楚。哪有人來這個地方被人家問到你自己都不知道要怎麼去回答？坦白講，其實你自己也沒辦法回應得很清楚啦！更何況部長，所以這樣處理事情真的是不對的。","我今天必須講，社會救助法的道理也是一樣，范雲委員剛剛有特別提到在15年前大修，那個就是我主提的，那個也是我大修的，但是很難改變當時的部長、當時的次長，當時還沒有社救司，應該是屬於在社會司的底下，你就是很難去改變那種舊思維，不過我們還是一樣大修了6條，最低生活費的標準以前全國是一致性的，剛剛秀芳委員特別有提到，在這個地方一般縣市跟臺北市的對照，連基本工資都已經高過了這樣的比例，所以後來才又改為六都，以前是五都變成六都，六都就六個標準、一般縣市就一般縣市標準、離島就離島標準，臺灣就是八個標準在做處理，我們不是沒有因應，包含這些共有的土地、低地力等，我們都有討論過，那個當然是規範條件之一，但是會因地制宜、因狀況去做改變、去做審視，其實相關機制大致上都已經建置完成了，但是為什麼執行一段時間之後還是會覺得不好用？次長，就像你說的，就很難用的，難認定，你如果是從地方起來的，你就很清楚。","當然我們對一般的百姓在辦行政作業的時候都希望便民，講求行政效率，但對低收入跟中低收入戶，有時候你看他在審查過程裡面……而且每一年都要複審一次，不是你讓他過了中低收入戶就是永遠的，是一年要審查一次，每一年都要審。我們還討論到，哪有今年是低收入戶，一年的審查一個條件不合格，隔年他馬上就不是低收入戶，哪有這麼硬的？我們都已經討論到這個情況了，但是為什麼這個法律這麼大幅的修正，經過十來年，它還是必須要修？而且這個最低的貧窮線我們到底怎麼去認定？我們有沒有符合先進的國家，還是我們現在的審核標準……包含這個貧窮線的比率是跟隔壁那個壞鄰居一致的標準？如果是這樣很恐怖，對不對？把中國當時對低收入跟中低收入戶認定的標準拿來臺灣做處理，我們有調整、我們有修正，有，不是沒有，但是調得不是很大，放得不是很寬……","當然，次長，我在當主席，我聽到你講的很多的隱喻跟面向，好啊！那這個可能在法條開始逐條討論的時候就要把相關的資料備齊，大家來對，但是這個貧窮率的標準也不是委員自己去生出來的，依照這樣去參考，它整個母數的蒐集、計算到底是怎麼樣，我們就把它條列得清清楚楚嘛！但是它最後顯示出來的表就是這個樣子啊！好，你可以說，沒有，我們跟日本的計算不一樣，我們跟韓國納入的範疇不一樣、跟美國不一樣，但總而言之，各國的貧窮率現在算起來就是這樣啦！我們怎麼會跟人家差這麼多？日本、韓國、美國、英國，我們跟這幾個國家比起來，我們的貧窮率都不到他們的十分之一，臺灣真的是富有的國家，讓臺灣再次強大。因為你有寫一個表，有時候你不知道背後是怎麼去計算，但是顯示出來就是這樣，日本要去參考臺灣是不是依照這個貧窮率來計算、來參考，當他覺得很驚訝的時候，他才會去細究你怎麼去採這些基本母數的計算方式嘛！","我必須講，所謂的虛擬這一塊就更好笑了，其實那個是要防懶人，當時那個情境，你好手好腳、有基本工作能力，只是你自己找不到工作啊，我當然也要把你算進去，我要把你試算，但是你不知道試算有多好笑，我們十幾年前在檢討的時候，他試算是比當時的基本工資還高，而且那個多嚴謹你知道嗎？那個調高50塊、降低50塊，那一次造成對於一個縣市的影響，可以達到那個資格的，一次可以刷下500到1,000人，差50塊而已。所以我們現在講說，怎麼會一個低收入戶跟中低收入戶因為三個條件中的一個條件差個50塊，他今年是低收入戶，明年就不是低收入戶了？土地的價值也是這樣，公告地價也不是他自己去調的，是地方政府去調的，多調了幾百塊，他原本是低收入戶，因為多調了那幾百塊，他隔年就不是低收入戶了，然後申復沒有用，哪有臺灣的法律對於低收入戶到中低收入戶定得這麼硬、定得這麼死？我們還有申復委員會，那就變成大家要來承擔，相信次長當局長就願意承擔，但有的就不太願意，他覺得就不是這個樣子，所以很多面向我們都討論過。","而且這次的版本到30案，還比身權法更多、還比兒托更多，所以大家極為重視社會救助法，我知道院版也還沒有進來，但是它跟身權法都一樣，很多委員都已經很在意這件事情，所以我也希望衛福部可以加快腳步，因為社會救助嘛！既然要救助就是要快啊！怎麼可能委員的版本都已經來了，你們給部長的報告資料就敬表同意、敬表同意、敬表同意，也敬表同意一半以上了，那為什麼你們社會救助法要修正的草案到現在都不進來？而且從去年到現在，當時陳院長的時候也答應范雲委員，這樣就不叫做社會救助啊！","部長聽我說這麼多，我都沒讓你說、讓你休息一下，你是不是可以冷靜一下跟我回應你們的版本什麼時候要進來？我排這樣才有意思啊！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，真的讓召委指導很多，我想不管怎麼樣就是加快腳步啦！因為有這麼多社會的關心、委員的關心，我們請呂次督導，趕快用最快的速度，看看院版能不能進來。"],["劉委員建國：不是啦！部長，你是不是可以再想一下，答復清楚一點，是不是一個月內、兩個月內？行政院版本可以進來到委員會跟所有的委員版本併案，大家趕快來討論，畢竟我們討論完之後還要經過三讀，然後看是不是年度在審查低收入跟中低收入標準的時候就可以來適用？這是其一。其二，第二件事情就是剛剛特別講到這些被詐騙的受害者，基本上衛福部可能要立即召集像內政部警政署、法務部等相關單位來檢視整個社會安全網，因為這一塊的破洞可能會越來越擴大，我們如何有效地把這些人承接起來，不管是提供心靈上的協助或是法律程序上的幫忙，還有很多的面向，就是不要讓他走到像臺中這個案例，這個是不是可以肯定地答復我說一個星期內還是兩個星期內，因為這要趕啦！發生這樣的案子，真的有人會學啦！坦白講，因為時間的關係，照理講他們的經濟狀況不是非常不好的。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：但後來為什麼他們會走向這樣的絕路？他有找過民意代表，但是沒有再繼續下去，後來他也沒有要去報警，最後就走上絕路，這就是社會安全網出問題了，我們要怎麼去接？這不是只有衛政一個單位要處理，而是衛政連警政連法政大家要一起來，所以是不是兩個星期內可以召集，然後提出更積極因應的一些作為？"],["邱部長泰源：好，召委所指示的，我覺得非常重要啦！我們兩個禮拜召集相關單位針對這個主題來開會，再跟召委報告。"],["劉委員建國：跟委員會啦，好不好？跟委員會報告。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：另外一個是社會救助法，院版的草案是不是一個月內？可以吧？不然你們那個報告給部長說敬表同意、敬表同意，就都是騙人的！"],["呂次長建德：兩個月好不好？"],["劉委員建國：兩個月？你不要跟剛才專門要延會延到8月底的那個人密謀喔！"],["呂次長建德：不會啦！"],["劉委員建國：他要延到8月底，你剛才說兩個月，我覺得你跟他有點關係喔！你注意喔！"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，關於這個部分，其實部長也給我們很多指導，還有各界的意見，我們都真的在加速推動，我也知道時間上要趕快送出來，我們會趕快提出來，也跟院那邊來做報告。"],["劉委員建國：因為現在已經7月初了，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對啦。"],["劉委員建國：你說兩個月，這樣勢必超過8月底了。"],["呂次長建德：我們會加速，我們盡快來處理。"],["劉委員建國：不然我們就8月底前啦！你們說兩個月，差一個禮拜而已，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：站在部會的立場，我們絕對……"],["劉委員建國：部長，現在是次長自己說兩個月，今天才7月7日而已，到8月底就差不多兩個月，我只是少一個禮拜而已，你跟窮人在計較一個禮拜，你「吃力」了喔！你還做過社會局局長。"],["呂次長建德：不會啦，我們會……好啦，我們快一點……"],["范委員雲：部版……"],["劉委員建國：部版要先出來。"],["呂次長建德：我們送到行政院，我們趕快送去行政院那邊。"],["劉委員建國：沒有，我是要你們院版出來，不是送去行政院就好，你們送去行政院是你們去對行政院，我們這裡叫做立法院，你是要對我們的啊！"],["呂次長建德：對啦。"],["劉委員建國：要是我沒有聽范雲委員剛才的垂詢，我還不曉得他去年就已經跟陳院長講過這些事情了，我剛剛還特別提到低收入跟……它不是只有針對中低跟低收入，它還包含急難救助，還有重大災害，社會救助法整個面向是……"],["呂次長建德：當然，我知道啦！"],["劉委員建國：對啊！所以這是要趕的東西。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：也不是今天開委員會就趕你要兩個月內出來，是之前你們其實就有在研議，也有聽取各界的意見，哪有時間這麼久的，那就不叫社會救助了，這叫社會反助！兩個月是你自己說的，我現在跟你說少一個禮拜而已。好啦！沒關係，兩個月就兩個月，我給你兩個月時間，你自己說的，院版就要提出來，是提到立法院，不是提到行政院喔！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們趕快來加速啦，這樣好不好？"],["劉委員建國：我加速都兩百，你加速是五十。沒有啦！社會救助法不可以讓你這樣拖啦！還有身權法耶！"],["呂次長建德：好啦！好啦！"],["劉委員建國：就兩個月內，部長，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：本日會議詢答全部結束，委員楊曜、林楚茵、廖偉翔、蘇清泉、陳瑩所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","壹、對於健保資料庫運用之目的如何更加明確，包含學術用及商用之區分？","問題：媒體報導，智慧醫療研究與發展，須仰賴大量數據資料，因此除了AI算力支持外，若有完整且有價值的數據支持，更能扶植智慧醫療發展，台灣因為有實施多年的健保制度，累積了相當豐富的醫療數據，但礙於法規限制，始終無法有效運用在AI訓練與相關研究上，因此，有醫界人事指出，正在審議中的《全民健康保險資料管理條例》草案，條文應明確規範，包括學術用途與商業用途的區分、去識別化要到什麼程度、何種情境下健保資料可以拿來訓練AI等，法規必須具體清晰，才能讓醫界發展智慧醫療時獲得法律保障，同時也保障民眾隱私，以歐盟為例，EHDS（歐洲健康資料空間）規範，關於健康醫療個資的再利用範圍規定中，EHDS除了列舉五個主要項目，更明確寫到，應用範圍包括產品或服務的開發與創新活動，甚至直接點出，「演算法的訓練測試與評估」、「人工智慧系統和數位健康應用」等，皆在醫療個資可供申請再利用的範圍內，此外，立法院法制局也曾提出建議，對於資料運用的「目的」，必須更具體明確，除了讓申請者對法規的適用更篤定，從保護個資的角度出發，正面表列，也能限编個資遭到濫用的風險，對此，衛福部看法為何？","貳、衛福部如何研議精進急診安寧緩和醫療？","問題：2024年，台灣急診醫學會發布首版《急診安寧緩和醫療指引》，希望讓急診不只是搶救，也能成為病人好好離開的起點，媒體報導，根據衛福部統計，2024年國人十大死因中，有7項與慢性疾病有關；2021年的國民健康訪問調查顯示，65歲以上長者有64.5%罹患2種以上的多重共病，43.5%同時罹患3項或更多慢性病。這些多重慢性共病患者的病程可能長達數十年，不會立刻死亡，但疾病會慢慢耗盡病人的體力與器官功能，有醫師表示：「許多病人到生命最後會送來急診，台灣就醫這麼方便，病人來急診前，一定看過很多科，為什麼沒有一個醫師跟他說，他已經走到生命末期？也從來沒被問過：當要面對死亡時，他希望接受怎樣的醫療處置？」正因為如此，醫師跟家屬常常不知道何時該對治療喊停。健保論件計酬的給付方式，使醫療「一路拚到底」，結果病人一再反覆送急診、急救、治療，送ICU，形成所謂的「急診常客」。醫療資源不斷消耗，病人與家屬筋疲力盡，卻未必獲得真正需要的照顧，因此，媒體指出急診安寧的七大障礙：急診安寧，缺乏信任與時間、病患進入急診體系後，沒有後續接手的安寧團隊、長照系統缺乏照護能力，社區醫療體系無力承接病人、安寧醫療團隊太晚介入、醫師對於「末期」病人難界定、急診醫療快崩潰，醫護團隊分身乏術進行安寧醫療、中小型醫院是社區安寧主力，但多數連起步都還沒開始，對於以上問題，衛福部如何著手處理？"],["委員林楚茵書面質詢：","所謂「月經貧窮」，係指經濟弱勢女性，因為無法取得充足且適當的生理用品，導致生理疾病及心理健康，且不利就學及就業，並將長期影響生活，陷人弱勢的惡性循環。","女性在一生中平均需花費近十萬元購買生理用品，對經濟弱勢者而言更是一筆沉重負擔。月經貧窮不僅影響其基本生活尊嚴，更可能弓丨發健康風險。","為貫徹《消除對婦女一切形式歧視公約》（CEDAW）及行政院《性別平等政策綱領》之精神，促進月經平權，且保障低收入戶或中低收入戶之女性之健康權，本席特別提案修正社會救助法第16條，提供低（中低）收入戶特殊項目救助及服務中，增列實物給付或（月經）生理用品，以照顧經濟不利處境者及保障女性健康權，此修正同時也獲衛生福利部於今日書面報告中表示支持。","爰請衛生福利部說明，修法前對於經濟弱勢女性，是否已有女性生理用品補助計畫？修法通過後，相關生理用品發放規劃流程如何？","另，去年底就業服務法第四十六條修法，明訂雇主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作，被看護者凡年齡滿八十歲以上，或七十歲至七十九歲患有癌症二期以上者，得免經醫療機構之專業評估。","相關法規預定於今年7月底上路，惟我國現有外籍看護工作人力有限，各界擔憂外籍看護會「避重就輕」，優先挑比較容易照顧的個案，導致照顧需求較高、重度失能者的需求遭到捨棄，恐對醫院、重症、長照或安養機構造成排擠效應。爰請衛生福利部說明如何規畫協助滿足醫療機構照護需求。"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","案由：鑒於社會救助法第5條第3項第9款之審核標準不明，亦有值得非議之處，造成社會部分弱勢人群無法受本法保障。綜觀世界各國情況，我國貧窮率世界倒數第二低，僅有1.5%，而其他福利國家的貧窮率都遠遠高過台灣，例如德、法、荷、瑞典、丹麥……等。顯因本法之標準，將大部分經濟弱勢族群，排除於救助對象之外，亦是造成台灣貧窮率世第二低之不合理情形之原因。為落實憲法第十五條：「人民生存權、工作權及財產權應予保障」及憲法增修條文第十條第八項：「國家應重視社會救助、福利服務、國民就業、社會保險及醫療保健等社會福利工作，對於社會救助和國民就業等救濟性支出應優先編列」之核心精神，爰向衛福部提出書面質詢。","說明：","1.根據台大社工系教授鄭麗珍研究，我國真實貧窮人口，即收入未達可支配所得中位數60%者，比例應為13.14%，約302萬人。但官方列冊低收入戶及中低收入戶僅58.5萬人，僅占總人口2.5%，差距近245萬人。這顯示社會救助法審核條件極其嚴苛，大量真正需要幫助的民眾被排除在外。故台灣貧窮率嚴重低估，請問衛福部如何看待社會救助覆蓋率過低問題？是否規劃放寬申請條件？","2.呈前題可得知，台灣有約200萬貧困人口被排除在社會救助體系外，主要原因就是「虛擬收入設算」制度。現行社會救助法仍採用「虛擬收入設算」制度，對16-65歲有工作能力但未就業者，以基本工資27,470元核算虛擬收入，政府說民眾有賺錢，但實際收入究竟為何，顯不存在！此為60年前防懶人條款至今仍在排除上百萬窮人。對此，衛福部是否能參考國際作法，改以「自述收入」方式，讓民眾如實申報所得，並建立事後追償機制，以取得社會救助與防弊機制間之平衡？","3.勞動部已公告街友為就業服務法第24條特定對象，可免費參加職業訓練並領取生活津貼。然而，社會救助法修法草案仍未設立無家者專章，僅透過少數條文對街友定義、劃分權責機關。換言之，街友已納入就業服務法特定對象，可免費參加職業訓練並領取津貼，但社會救助法仍未設立「無家者專章」。衛福部如何整合各項資源，建立完整的無家者服務體系？"],["委員蘇清泉書面質詢：","衛福部在考量我國地下經濟盛行與促進就業政策的同時，是否評估虛擬所得設算機制，排除實際貧困家庭，特別是輕度身心障礙者或非典型就業者？是否有具體數據支持此機制能有效促進就業而非阻礙救助？","對於委員提出取消虛擬所得設算，改以申請人自述收入核算，或更精確地評估個案工作能力，衛福部是否能提出更積極且務實的方案，以避免將不存在的收入強加於弱勢家庭，導致其無法脫貧？","針對因家人無往來或受暴等特殊情況，導致家戶所得合併計算而無法申請救助的問題，衛福部是否有意願或能力擴大彈性認定範圍？並強化社工師在個案事實判斷上的權責，以更貼近真實處境？","衛福部如何評估將女性生理用品補助納入社會救助給付項目，是否能有效緩解月經貧窮問題？現行是否有其他管道提供類似協助？","對於新增「膳食補助」，衛福部將如何規劃其形式（如食物券、實物給付、定點領取等）？如何確保補助能真正解決弱勢群體「飲食不繼」的問題，並避免資源浪費或流用？","未來是否會考量更多元的實物給付或服務項目，以更精準地回應不同弱勢族群的實際生活需求，而非僅限於現金補助？"],["委員陳瑩書面質詢：","茲因陳瑩委員受颱風丹娜絲影響飛機停飛，未及返回而改書面質詢，敬請衛生福利部食品藥物管理署就下列問題，明確說明並提出具體答覆：","一、食品藥物管理署依據「包裝醬油製程標示之規定」醬油製成目前就醬油標示管理，分為下列四種類別，依食藥署定義，速成醬油與水解醬油均以酸或酵素水解植物性蛋白質原料，差異僅是否有無發酵，又該如何分辨速成醬油與水解醬油？目前我國市面上有無速成醬油的成品在市面上販售？速成醬油的”速”指的是指發酵多久可以稱之為速成？另依食藥署109年度「醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫」共取得國內外共195種醬油產品來進行檢測，無論國內外的的醬油產品均區分成釀造、水解及調合，為何沒有速成醬油？又如果調合醬油便可代表速成醬油這一類的醬油，食藥署「包裝醬油製程標示之規定」為何不刪除速成醬油這一類的名稱？","速成醬油：以酸或酵素水解植物性蛋白質原料，並經發酵製成。","水解醬油：以酸或酵素水解植物性蛋白質原料，未經發酵製成。","混合（調合）醬油：以混合方式製成。","釀造醬油：以製麴發酵方式製成，並符合一定總氮含量標準（如豆麥醬油每100ml達0.8g以上，黑豆醬油每100ml達0.6g以上）。","二、依據阿米洛法（Amylo process）是一種在PH酸的特性下將植物性蛋白轉化成胺基酸的作法，其主要風味來自天冬胺酸及麩酸，有別於傳統的釀造方法，例如台灣菸酒公司廣受民眾喜愛的台灣紅標米酒的製程也是同樣的阿米洛作法，由消費者自由選購。另，上述的速成醬油及水解醬油定義：以酸或酵素水解植物性蛋白質原料，除了台灣並無速成醬油以外，水解醬油的製程並沒有用酵素做水解，為何仍保留「酵素」混淆消費者？","三、鑑於水解醬油過程使用食用鹽酸，但最終成品中已中和還原鹽和水，若以原料製程為由要求標示為「鹽酸水解醬油」或「酸水解醬油」，是否恐誤導消費者產生不必要疑慮？是否應依實質成分結果與食品安全為依據判斷標示，而非僅依加工程序？採用相同製程的紅標米酒（阿米洛法）是否也應改成鹽酸水解米酒或酸水解米酒；在沙油製程中，加入正己烷將油脂從黃豆中萃取分離，但其會有一定殘留量在沙拉油中，那是否也比照辦理更名為正己烷沙拉油？請貴署說明標示政策之依據原則。另檢附2011年11月29日自由時報新聞供參。","四、據了解，貴署於109年度曾執行「醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫」，請說明：","本案委託單位、檢測項目與研究目的為何？後續是否另有延伸研究或更新版本？","五、前述報告中，以「果糖酸低於0.1%」作為判斷釀造醬油之依據。然報告顯示，108件國產釀造醬油樣品皆未檢出果糖酸，29件進口樣品中亦僅1件超過0.1%。若據此要求所有國產釀造醬油廠商負擔檢測費用並主動標示果糖酸含量是否低於標準，是否形同要求業者「證明自己沒有問題」？沒有的東西也要標示的話，沒有的物質相當多，該作法是否有違比例原則？請說明貴署立場及依據。","六、同一報告中，「水解醬油」29件中有8件、「調合醬油」29件中有10件，其果糖酸含量亦低於0.1%。若果糖酸被視為釀造醬油標示之唯一依據，是否恐產生「非釀造醬油卻誤標為釀造醬油」之風險？對於此類邏輯漏洞，貴署有無防範措施？是否將補充其他判定指標以提高敏感度與正確分類效果？","七、目前無論國際間是否有其他國家將果糖酸作為釀造醬油判定指標，貴署是否已進行國際規範比較？若本項標準僅見於我國，是否有明確科學依據或風險評估支持？是否已進行利益衡量（如對產業成本、價格、標示正確性之影響）？","八、請貴署就目前針對「醬油」標示規定之修法規劃，說明如下事項：","是否已擬具草案內容或修法方向？是否辦理預告？有無評估消費者理解程度與產業實務可行性？","是否已完成風險與成本效益評估？","是否已與業者充分溝通？","九、從民眾知情權出發，本席完全支持標示清楚與正確性，亦支持關鍵指標的建立。但科學指標必須同時兼具「高敏感度與高特異度」，請問貴署是否能證實目前果糖酸指標能有效辨識所有釀造醬油？如敏感度不足七成，是否應重新評估？","十、若無明確目的與依據，卻要求變更標示規定，增加檢測與包裝成本，轉嫁價格於消費者，是否將造成物價上漲與民怨？請問貴署有何因應規劃與說明機制？如何避免「為管制而管制」的行政負擔與誤導？","以上敬請貴署於三個月內詳細書面答覆。"],["主席：先作以下決議：第一、說明及詢答完畢。第二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。第三、社會救助法部分條文修正草案等30案，另擇期繼續審查。","另外作報告，報告委員會，委員蘇清泉、邱鎮軍、陳瑩因受丹娜絲颱風影響，北上交通受阻，向本委員會請假一次。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（13時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-19","speakers":["劉建國","范雲","林月琴","楊瓊瓔","陳昭姿","王育敏","陳菁徽","林淑芬","涂權吉","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張雅琳","盧縣一","黃秀芳","楊曜","林楚茵","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","陳瑩"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2025-07-07"],"gazette_id":"1146604","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146604_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員楊曜等17人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二、委員范雲等17人擬\n具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正\n草案」案；四、委員黃秀芳等20人擬具「社會救助法第二條、第四條及第十四條條文修正草案」\n案；五、委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；六、委員黃捷等16人\n擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；七、委員蔡其昌等 17 人擬具「社會救助法第四\n條、第四條之一及第五條條文修正草案」案；八、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n條文修正草案」案；九、委員王鴻薇等26人擬具「社會救助法第十五條及第十五條之一條文修正\n草案」案；十、委員邱若華等20人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、台灣民眾黨\n黨團擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n18人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二、第十一條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；十三、委員楊瓊\n瓔等21人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「社會救\n助法第四條及第十一條條文修正草案」案；十五、委員林月琴等19人擬具「社會救助法部分條文\n修正草案」案；十六、委員楊曜等24人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；十七、委\n員馬文君等20 人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十八、委員葉元之等 21 人擬具\n「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十九、委員羅智強等18人擬具「社會救助法第十一條\n及第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十、委員何欣純等17人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十一、委員劉建國等18人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、委員林楚茵\n等18人擬具「社會救助法第十六條條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會救\n助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員邱若華等17人擬具「社會救助法第十一條條文修正草\n案」案；二十五、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「社會救助法第二十四條條文修正草案」案；二十六、\n委員吳沛憶等16 人擬具「社會救助法部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委員邱鎮軍等 24 人擬具\n「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十八、委員游顥等17人擬具「社會救助法第五條\n之一及第五條之二條文修正草案」案；二十九、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二\n條文修正草案」案；三十、委員馬文君等16 人擬具「社會救助法第五條之二條文修正草案」案\n【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1146604_00020"}}}