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\"助\", \"start\": 201.675, \"end\": 201.875, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 201.875, \"end\": 202.075, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 202.075, \"end\": 202.095, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}]}, {\"start\": 205.218, \"end\": 228.698, \"text\": \"那內政部長劉世芳除了大喊說我們是台灣國大喊說要改路民然後恐嚇大家租屋的補助金不夠然後告訴大家說但是改路民都有錢在這些狀況之下這些都是涉及地方跟中央政府之間的事項我想說因為你對這塊很有研究所以我要請教你相關的這些議題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 205.218, \"end\": 205.378, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 205.378, \"end\": 205.558, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 205.558, \"end\": 205.998, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 205.998, \"end\": 206.199, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"芳\", \"start\": 206.199, \"end\": 206.579, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 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\"我想在你的書裡面有提到一個點就是地方政府他在履行地方法定義務任務以及辦理最低程度的自治思想所需的經費中央不得已缺乏財政上幾副能力而置之不理這個您認同嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 230.66, \"end\": 230.74, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 230.74, \"end\": 230.96, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 230.96, \"end\": 231.12, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 231.12, \"end\": 231.4, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 231.4, \"end\": 231.48, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 231.48, \"end\": 231.56, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 231.56, \"end\": 231.661, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 231.661, \"end\": 231.781, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 231.781, \"end\": 231.921, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 231.921, \"end\": 232.261, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 232.261, \"end\": 232.381, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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\"您\", \"start\": 246.447, \"end\": 246.867, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 246.867, \"end\": 247.187, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 247.187, \"end\": 247.627, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 247.627, \"end\": 247.787, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 247.787, \"end\": 248.608, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 248.608, \"end\": 249.868, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 249.868, \"end\": 250.028, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 250.028, \"end\": 250.408, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 250.408, \"end\": 250.608, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 250.608, \"end\": 250.708, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 250.708, \"end\": 251.108, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": 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00:00:53,253\n我想我在這邊先跟蕭教授報告一下因為我昨天在詢問另外一位大法官的被提名人的時候其實我有提到就是說我認為其實我對大法官的想法並不是說要求大法官在任何一個公共議題上面想法要跟我一樣所以我不會著重在譬如說廢死與否或國會改革與否等等的這些一些細項上面\n\n3\n00:00:54,173 --> 00:01:17,215\n要跟我一樣因為我認為公共政策本來就會有各種肯定說否定說所以我都會予以尊重而且跟我一時一步一樣這也不是大法官適不適格的一個重要論點但是大法官我想還是需要的一個點就是第一個他要有一定的專業度再來他必須懂得大法官是做什麼他是解釋憲法法律的衝突以及統一解釋\n\n4\n00:01:18,291 --> 00:01:31,137\n那他不是創設法律嘛尤其在法律並沒有現行法律並沒有漏洞的情況下其實司法是沒有造法的這個權限的那還有一個重要的\n\n5\n00:01:32,385 --> 00:01:58,287\n就是大法官有沒有勇於對抗政府的這個勇氣當然我說的對抗是告訴政府你違憲了的這個勇氣所以我覺得這是我心目中大法官應該要有的那個樣子因為我看到過往的大法官譬如說王哲健翁岳昇吳根等等這些大法官其實他們在歷次有重要的法案的時候譬如說檢察官的搜索權\n\n6\n00:01:59,048 --> 00:02:15,893\n譬如說集會遊行法行政機關的預先審查等等他們都展現了對抗當時執政黨的勇氣但是我看不到現在的大法官還擁有這樣的勇氣所以我今天有個標題在前面就是不要與神同行要與人民同戰\n\n7\n00:02:16,633 --> 00:02:31,489\n因為大法官是全民的大法官是保護我們的大法官是保護我國憲政體制的大法官不是保護執政黨的大法官這是我對於大法官的我心裡的一個期待我想蕭教授\n\n8\n00:02:32,435 --> 00:02:53,953\n我不知道您有沒有聽過一句話財政是樹木之母缺少自主可自由運用的財政經費地方自治團體無法享有自我負責決定之權而僅是中央政府的下一機關這句話您應該很清楚吧對這是您自己書裡面地方自治法基礎理論與實務2019年版第89頁的一句話這應該您很清楚\n\n9\n00:02:58,376 --> 00:03:22,095\n照你的書上面寫,您應該是非常認同地方的財政自主權,是不是?是或不是?當然啦,你要保,憲法如果要保障地方自治,人跟錢是一定要的好,那謝謝齁,那我今天想要跟你討論就是這個部分因為最近發生了一個事情,您一定非常清楚,就是行政院他刪除地方政府的一般性補助款,總額達到636億\n\n10\n00:03:25,218 --> 00:03:48,698\n那內政部長劉世芳除了大喊說我們是台灣國大喊說要改路民然後恐嚇大家租屋的補助金不夠然後告訴大家說但是改路民都有錢在這些狀況之下這些都是涉及地方跟中央政府之間的事項我想說因為你對這塊很有研究所以我要請教你相關的這些議題\n\n11\n00:03:50,660 --> 00:04:04,166\n我想在你的書裡面有提到一個點就是地方政府他在履行地方法定義務任務以及辦理最低程度的自治思想所需的經費中央不得已缺乏財政上幾副能力而置之不理這個您認同嗎\n\n12\n00:04:06,447 --> 00:04:27,433\n這您書裡面寫的?這當然啦那我想請教第一個問題就是這次行政院主席總署他不分縣市的財政狀況齊頭市的停發27%的一般性補助款他這個嚴重衝擊到幾個財政狀況比較不佳的縣市例如說宜蘭縣譬如說苗栗縣\n\n13\n00:04:28,453 --> 00:04:55,580\n那這些錢呢他本來應該是用在一些那個社會福利制度啦例如老人照顧啦學校營養午餐啦等等的齁而且這些經費是早在去年8月主席總署就已經核定了而且各地的議會也已經三讀通過裡面甚至還包括到一些警消還有一些交通的基礎建設的經費那地方也都發包了然後突然間中央說這個錢不可以給你覺得\n\n14\n00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,796\n你覺得這樣子地方還有所謂的財政自主權嗎我可以回答嗎可以請說\n\n15\n00:05:02,799 --> 00:05:32,181\n首先就是有關於地方自治財政的問題我想這個是任何一個憲法保障地方自治的國家都應該要全力支援的為了要讓地方有充分的財源我們在地制法63條64條65條都規定了地方有10種不同的收入除了地方自己的收入之外中央給地方的兩個最大的財政的資助跟補助是統籌分配款還有補助款統籌分配款基本上是法定的\n\n16\n00:05:33,407 --> 00:05:52,258\n也就是說統籌分配款用法律的規定統籌分配我沒有問題這一般性補助款補助款基本上不是固定稅源因為補助款的解釋在大法官釋字498號解釋有對補助款有充分的說明\n\n17\n00:05:53,188 --> 00:06:21,415\n那基本上補助款因為他沒有固定的稅源所以基本上他應該是由中央政府或者上級政府依照他的財政來支援但是我們國家比較特別的一點就是說不管是在財政收支劃分法或是這個地方制度法我們都只有單純講補助款那委員所提示的一般補助款跟計劃性補助款是在行政院所定的辦法\n\n18\n00:06:22,643 --> 00:06:49,327\n所以我們憲法裡面並沒有分這個一般的補助款跟計劃型的補助款所以大法官4-498號他講得非常清楚就是說中央對地方自治團體得市期財政狀況予以適當的補助那重點就是剛剛委員所講的使地方自治團體能夠支應他財政的基本需求保障所有的國民都有一定程度的基本的經濟生活\n\n19\n00:06:49,867 --> 00:07:08,084\n那我覺得這個目的是最重要的那現在最大的問題就是說委員所提出來的補助款裡面特別針對一般型的補助款因為大家都知道計畫型的補助款這個不是義務我們不要再扯到計畫型一般型的補助款到底有沒有義務持續給\n\n20\n00:07:10,543 --> 00:07:29,259\n站在憲法的角度來講是沒有但是站在法律的角度這個就可以討論因為我們行政法裡面有一個基本上的一個原則那個我跟你講因為我只有20分鐘的時間問你我想你一直要扯到理論很遠去我就想說不需要我簡單的就是一般性補助團\n\n21\n00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:58,229\n沒關係我了解的所以對於這個齊頭市的27%一般性補助款中央行政院說要刪除您是支持對不對我了解您這個講法就好不是不是我還沒講完就是說如果一般型的補助款它經過行政機關長期實務的運作它變成一種行政慣例過往沒有刪過加上行政程序法第六條的規定它就有對外的拘束力\n\n22\n00:07:58,849 --> 00:08:05,817\n只是說好那如果照你這樣講那中央就不應該刪啊他已經過往的慣例而且有對外的拘束力嘛\n\n23\n00:08:06,605 --> 00:08:29,393\n過往的慣例是沒錯,但是假設啦,我們前提有假設沒有假設,那個蕭教授,我不是來這裡跟你辯論喔蕭教授,我是來請教你對於公共議題的想法那你如果要假設要扯到統籌分配款,扯到計畫性補助款,那個都不在我的問題範圍內假設中央的財政沒有減少,應該給\n\n24\n00:08:32,313 --> 00:08:51,243\n這是我的想法因為我們立法院自己來訂了一個規定說今年的不能比去年少你要繞來繞去我跟你講我認為的大法官我剛一開始我就講了要有勇氣對抗政府當然你可以我沒有說你一定要認同我們的想法或認同中央的想法但是我們要有個勇氣說我的想法是什麼\n\n25\n00:08:52,899 --> 00:09:16,021\n沒關係啦就這樣啦我問到這裡我還是問不出我要的我的問題其實我說真的我是這樣我沒有要求每個人要回答我要的答案但是要就我的問題去回答那我請教你一個最簡單的問題這你一定有辦法回答地方跟中央的關係地方是中央的吹喊嗎\n\n26\n00:09:17,094 --> 00:09:43,873\n當然不是兩個是獨立的公法人對所以中央跟地方它是一個垂直分權的關係對不對但是我們現在實務上面的運作變成是地方要苦苦哀求中央耶您知道地方現在實務運作變成這樣嗎然後中央今天他在預算的分配上面他喜歡誰就誰嘛行政院長甚至可以出來講一句話叫做有這個縣市的立委有配合我中央的政策優先發給\n\n27\n00:09:45,514 --> 00:10:07,401\n這個東西您學者的角度來看,您認同這句話嗎?因為他的立委知不支持我中央行政院的政策所以我的一些的預算優不優先給,給不給足我可以這樣子分配嗎?我可以這樣子嗎?我請教蕭教授補助的分配有法律規定如果依法律規定沒問題,如果\n\n28\n00:10:08,041 --> 00:10:31,031\n他的目的不是基於還是沒有回答我的話我還沒講完依法依法對你講依法沒有錯我也會講依法我只問你這一句話嘛這一句話行政院的這一句院長可以講這一句話這句話的法律依據在我國是哪一條法律你立法委員配合我那我就優先給你們這句話的法律依據為何請教蕭教授\n\n29\n00:10:32,352 --> 00:10:38,599\n如果立法院的內容是合乎法律規定沒問題如果立法院的內容不合乎法律規定那當然是不可以的\n\n30\n00:10:39,571 --> 00:11:01,568\n重點就是我剛跟委員報告每一個立法委員他都有他自己選區的任務如果他的要求是合乎法律規定沒問題蕭教授我的問題非常的簡單行政院長講了這一句話有無法律依據要是我今天被您問我這個問題我就會說沒有法律依據啊但是\n\n31\n00:11:02,449 --> 00:11:17,865\n我認同他的想法我非常支持他的想法這是一種論調第二種論調他有法律依據我就是告訴全國人民這條法律依據什麼第三種他這個東西沒有法律依據而且我不認同就這三個嘛你又再繞到別的地方去我覺得\n\n32\n00:11:19,386 --> 00:11:40,285\n我沒有刁難你你可以再回去看我今天對你的任何一個資訊我沒有刁難你但是您都沒有回答我的問題我沒有要你回答我心中喜歡的答案我都沒有要求這樣但是您要回答我的問題啊好沒關係那既然一直問不到問題這塊就算了啦我沒有期待了那我在\n\n33\n00:11:42,628 --> 00:12:08,438\n其實我跟你說啦我今天來這邊證其實我很多我以前的同事打給我說這個蕭教授很好一定要讓他過等等我說沒有我一定是依據我們審查的結果也不會因為我今天不認同您或是我覺得你沒有答到問題而我就會否決你我不是這樣的人我一定是看實際怎麼樣來做但是我要講的是我都沒有聽到剛剛我問的題目的答案\n\n34\n00:12:09,876 --> 00:12:24,914\n這個答案不管肯定說否定說我都沒有聽到因為繞來繞去還是等於沒有說我在請教您在德國念書嘛您剛剛有講那我也有看過您過往的一些發言我請教您一個問題\n\n35\n00:12:25,714 --> 00:12:52,982\n德國的國會他有沒有調查權當然有那您之前其實有提到一個東西就是我先講一個民進黨的大前輩林卓水他曾經說過說他說第一個打造世界最弱國會的是孫中山第二個是蔣介石第三個是1993年的大法官第四個是現在的大法官那那個您之前他說我們現在台灣還繼續以五權憲法的名義在挑空國會的調查權\n\n36\n00:12:55,697 --> 00:13:15,473\n然後再繼續鞏固行政院立法局的體制他把立法院變成是立法局那您之前曾經倡議過說國會行使職權法您有提到支持國會完整調查權明文界定調查傳喚罰還等等的手段跟範圍跟程序然後\n\n37\n00:13:16,213 --> 00:13:41,014\n這就發生一個狀況就是您的這個東西都跟我之前在國會改革推法案的時候想法與精神都一致但是我們得到的是什麼就是被現在的青鳥以及民進黨的立委說我們是毀憲亂政法盲也就是您過往的理想以及德國現在的國會的調查權在我國會變成\n\n38\n00:13:42,615 --> 00:14:00,771\n當然你可以說他們三權我們五權嘛當然是有不同之處但是這些東西在我國推行第一步就會被人家說迴憲亂政以及法盲當然我不會說你法盲因為我也是認同您的這個這個您過往的這些想法另外就是\n\n39\n00:14:02,268 --> 00:14:26,410\n這一次我看到美國的國會他在調查臉書Meta公司的時候主博客到國會去作證聯邦參議員跟他說了一句話說美國人民有權了解貴公司的真相但是到我們台灣來當我們想要了解超資雞蛋疫苗採購等等的時候以及或是我們在國會改革的時候我們希望把調查權放到國會的權限裡面的時候\n\n40\n00:14:27,071 --> 00:14:53,037\n有一些委員就說你們是要把這些商業秘密問完之後交給中國政府這個就是我們實務上面遇到的一些狀況跟教授您報告是現在我們遇到這個狀況因為我看到你過往在論述這個德國國會以及對我國國會的一些想法的時候我發現這個想法當然跟我是完全我非常認同您的這些想法但是這些想法目前在\n\n41\n00:14:53,897 --> 00:15:11,122\n在我國的運作上以及在我國的執政黨的眼中其實我們都是在毀憲亂政所以現在我們連請監察委員監察院的官員到國會都沒辦法我們想要請國安會秘書長到國會也沒辦法所以\n\n42\n00:15:12,657 --> 00:15:40,057\n我們連想請領國家薪水的人來這裡他都不願意來所以這就是我們痛苦的地方甚至我們也是嚴守大公會解釋哪一些人不需要到立法院那我們以這些人以外的人我們請他來他也是愛來就不來也不用請假也不用說明那我們毫無任何裁罰制裁任何權利都沒有我想請問一下這樣子的國會您認同嗎\n\n43\n00:15:43,024 --> 00:16:07,163\n謝謝委員提問調查權當然是國會當然在台灣還包括部份監察院的權利他是一個輔助性但是我認為是不可或缺的權利尤其是當然我們現在的情況不一樣尤其是少數黨的特殊權利因為少數黨只有透過調查權才能去對抗多數黨\n\n44\n00:16:08,143 --> 00:16:26,882\n所以一個調查權的好壞範圍跟實施的順暢與否這個是判斷一個國家是不是一個國會為主的或是說民主法治國家一個很最重要的一個關鍵那我們大法官解釋其實在525號解釋已經就\n\n45\n00:16:27,643 --> 00:16:40,102\n我們國家雖然是五權但是除了監察院之外立法院當然可以享有調查權這個沒有問題比較可惜的是說在525做完之後十幾年都沒有\n\n46\n00:16:43,306 --> 00:17:00,234\n所以去年這個國會職權行使法訂定之後呢其實對很多學習憲政的來講大家終於鬆了一口氣終於國會有真正的調查權因為光靠大法官585號解釋立法院是沒有辦法因為要立法院職權行使法\n\n47\n00:17:00,974 --> 00:17:23,949\n所以就這個國會改革法案裡面剛剛委員談到很多問題我的初衷跟我寫的書一樣不過有一點可能跟委員比較不一樣的地方就是說我針對於藐視國會要罰則這個部分我的範圍是比立法院通過的窄一點當然我不贊成用刑法我贊成用行政法\n\n48\n00:17:24,569 --> 00:17:42,067\n是第二個呢政府官員不管是院長副院長部會首長甚至呢應邀備詢的政府官員這個有罰則但是一般人民我是不贊同有罰則謝謝那接下來就是說這個罰則呢除了行政法之外其實應該還有這個\n\n49\n00:17:44,850 --> 00:18:06,259\n立法院的內部的處罰比如說我們以前常常看到就是說不准你來出席可是這個不准來出席剛好順了他的意啊反正他不想來你禁止他出席我覺得這個是不正確的那我們現在行政法法的種類很多所以我是贊成如果調查真的能夠實現而且重點我剛喬\n\n50\n00:18:07,432 --> 00:18:35,409\n一再強調調查權是要合乎立法院的職權只要合乎立法院的職權調查他不來我覺得可以用行政法去處理謝謝教授因為時間的關係那當然教授大部分我們是一樣那教授對於說該不該有刑法以及怎麼處罰以及範圍這個我都認同這個我完全認同就是說這個只是對於範圍的部分大家想法不一致這個都是OK但是主軸我們的想法是一致的\n\n51\n00:18:36,650 --> 00:18:53,925\n我想說我最後因為時間的關係我想我在這邊提一下但是上一次國會的這個法案到最後這個都不應該有所以我們任何的一個裁法任何的一個對於官員的要求甚至我們說他來這裡不可以說謊\n\n52\n00:18:55,026 --> 00:19:06,525\n我們連這樣子要去追究他責任的權利都沒有所以今天官員來這裡預算我們省預算的事情官員現在到國會也在說謊到外面宣講也在說謊\n\n53\n00:19:07,844 --> 00:19:31,738\n然後國會我們看到的行政機關的網站拿公家的錢設置的網站上面寫的數據也在說謊但是我在國會我當個立法委員我完全沒有任何的權利去制裁我想這個是不對的像您剛剛提到的德國我也看過德國的資料德國他就是尊重少數黨所以他認為國會要有給他們一個就是國會有調查權才能夠讓少數黨繼續去\n\n54\n00:19:33,719 --> 00:19:52,308\n監督這個國家一樣我們今天在台灣遇到的狀況就是當我們拿民主國家最基本有的國會的這個調查權以及監督行政權的這些權限到台灣都變成迴憲亂政我想我這個不用多說教授您也看得懂我也不讓您在這邊說一些\n\n55\n00:19:55,526 --> 00:20:23,235\n免得你被執政黨的立委修理最後我再跟各位跟教授報告如果您有幸擔任大法官請你看一下4至791號780號他們都曾經去推翻以前大法官的解釋也就是說如果有一天你有幸當大法官請勇於對抗以前錯誤的大法官解釋好謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問也謝謝蕭教授的說明\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1229\t27655\t蕭教授麻煩請被提名的蕭教授蕭教授早安我在擔任新北市法治局局長的時候因為那時候需要多了解一些地方自治方面的事項有拜讀過您很多資料以及您著作的書謝謝您帶給我非常多的知識\n29046\t53253\t我想我在這邊先跟蕭教授報告一下因為我昨天在詢問另外一位大法官的被提名人的時候其實我有提到就是說我認為其實我對大法官的想法並不是說要求大法官在任何一個公共議題上面想法要跟我一樣所以我不會著重在譬如說廢死與否或國會改革與否等等的這些一些細項上面\n54173\t77215\t要跟我一樣因為我認為公共政策本來就會有各種肯定說否定說所以我都會予以尊重而且跟我一時一步一樣這也不是大法官適不適格的一個重要論點但是大法官我想還是需要的一個點就是第一個他要有一定的專業度再來他必須懂得大法官是做什麼他是解釋憲法法律的衝突以及統一解釋\n78291\t91137\t那他不是創設法律嘛尤其在法律並沒有現行法律並沒有漏洞的情況下其實司法是沒有造法的這個權限的那還有一個重要的\n92385\t118287\t就是大法官有沒有勇於對抗政府的這個勇氣當然我說的對抗是告訴政府你違憲了的這個勇氣所以我覺得這是我心目中大法官應該要有的那個樣子因為我看到過往的大法官譬如說王哲健 翁岳昇 吳根等等這些大法官其實他們在歷次有重要的法案的時候譬如說檢察官的搜索權\n119048\t135893\t譬如說集會遊行法行政機關的預先審查等等他們都展現了對抗當時執政黨的勇氣但是我看不到現在的大法官還擁有這樣的勇氣所以我今天有個標題在前面就是不要與神同行要與人民同戰\n136633\t151489\t因為大法官是全民的大法官是保護我們的大法官是保護我國憲政體制的大法官不是保護執政黨的大法官這是我對於大法官的我心裡的一個期待我想蕭教授\n152435\t173953\t我不知道您有沒有聽過一句話財政是樹木之母 缺少自主可自由運用的財政經費地方自治團體無法享有自我負責決定之權而僅是中央政府的下一機關這句話您應該很清楚吧對這是您自己書裡面地方自治法基礎理論與實務2019年版第89頁的一句話這應該您很清楚\n178376\t202095\t照你的書上面寫,您應該是非常認同地方的財政自主權,是不是?是或不是?當然啦,你要保,憲法如果要保障地方自治,人跟錢是一定要的好,那謝謝齁,那我今天想要跟你討論就是這個部分因為最近發生了一個事情,您一定非常清楚,就是行政院他刪除地方政府的一般性補助款,總額達到636億\n205218\t228698\t那內政部長劉世芳除了大喊說我們是台灣國大喊說要改路民然後恐嚇大家租屋的補助金不夠然後告訴大家說但是改路民都有錢在這些狀況之下這些都是涉及地方跟中央政府之間的事項我想說因為你對這塊很有研究所以我要請教你相關的這些議題\n230660\t244166\t我想在你的書裡面有提到一個點就是地方政府他在履行地方法定義務任務以及辦理最低程度的自治思想所需的經費中央不得已缺乏財政上幾副能力而置之不理這個您認同嗎\n246447\t267433\t這您書裡面寫的?這當然啦那我想請教第一個問題就是這次行政院主席總署他不分縣市的財政狀況齊頭市的停發27%的一般性補助款他這個嚴重衝擊到幾個財政狀況比較不佳的縣市例如說宜蘭縣譬如說苗栗縣\n268453\t295580\t那這些錢呢 他本來應該是用在一些那個社會福利制度啦 例如老人照顧啦學校營養午餐啦 等等的齁而且這些經費是早在去年8月 主席總署就已經核定了而且各地的議會也已經三讀通過裡面甚至還包括到一些警消 還有一些交通的基礎建設的經費那地方也都發包了 然後突然間中央說這個錢不可以給 你覺得\n296960\t301796\t你覺得這樣子地方還有所謂的財政自主權嗎我可以回答嗎可以 請說\n302799\t332181\t首先就是有關於地方自治財政的問題我想這個是任何一個憲法保障地方自治的國家都應該要全力支援的為了要讓地方有充分的財源我們在地制法63條64條65條都規定了地方有10種不同的收入除了地方自己的收入之外中央給地方的兩個最大的財政的資助跟補助是統籌分配款還有補助款統籌分配款基本上是法定的\n333407\t352258\t也就是說統籌分配款用法律的規定統籌分配我沒有問題這一般性補助款補助款基本上不是固定稅源因為補助款的解釋在大法官釋字498號解釋有對補助款有充分的說明\n353188\t381415\t那基本上補助款因為他沒有固定的稅源所以基本上他應該是由中央政府或者上級政府依照他的財政來支援但是我們國家比較特別的一點就是說不管是在財政收支劃分法或是這個地方制度法我們都只有單純講補助款那委員所提示的一般補助款跟計劃性補助款是在行政院所定的辦法\n382643\t409327\t所以我們憲法裡面並沒有分這個一般的補助款跟計劃型的補助款所以大法官4-498號他講得非常清楚就是說中央對地方自治團體得市期財政狀況予以適當的補助那重點就是剛剛委員所講的使地方自治團體能夠支應他財政的基本需求保障所有的國民都有一定程度的基本的經濟生活\n409867\t428084\t那我覺得這個目的是最重要的那現在最大的問題就是說委員所提出來的補助款裡面特別針對一般型的補助款因為大家都知道計畫型的補助款這個不是義務我們不要再扯到計畫型一般型的補助款到底有沒有義務持續給\n430543\t449259\t站在憲法的角度來講是沒有但是站在法律的角度這個就可以討論因為我們行政法裡面有一個基本上的一個原則那個我跟你講因為我只有20分鐘的時間問你我想你一直要扯到理論很遠去我就想說不需要我簡單的就是一般性補助團\n450160\t478229\t沒關係我了解的所以對於這個齊頭市的27%一般性補助款中央行政院說要刪除您是支持對不對我了解您這個講法就好不是不是我還沒講完就是說如果一般型的補助款它經過行政機關長期實務的運作它變成一種行政慣例過往沒有刪過加上行政程序法第六條的規定它就有對外的拘束力\n478849\t485817\t只是說好那如果照你這樣講那中央就不應該刪啊他已經過往的慣例而且有對外的拘束力嘛\n486605\t509393\t過往的慣例是沒錯,但是假設啦,我們前提有假設沒有假設,那個蕭教授,我不是來這裡跟你辯論喔蕭教授,我是來請教你對於公共議題的想法那你如果要假設要扯到統籌分配款,扯到計畫性補助款,那個都不在我的問題範圍內假設中央的財政沒有減少,應該給\n512313\t531243\t這是我的想法因為我們立法院自己來訂了一個規定說今年的不能比去年少你要繞來繞去 我跟你講我認為的大法官我剛一開始我就講了要有勇氣對抗政府當然你可以我沒有說你一定要認同我們的想法或認同中央的想法但是我們要有個勇氣說我的想法是什麼\n532899\t556021\t沒關係啦 就這樣啦 我問到這裡我還是問不出我要的我的問題 其實我說真的 我是這樣我沒有要求每個人要回答我要的答案但是要就我的問題去回答那我請教你一個最簡單的問題 這你一定有辦法回答地方跟中央的關係 地方是中央的吹喊嗎\n557094\t583873\t當然不是 兩個是獨立的公法人對 所以中央跟地方它是一個垂直分權的關係對不對但是我們現在實務上面的運作變成是地方要苦苦哀求中央耶您知道地方現在實務運作變成這樣嗎然後中央今天他在預算的分配上面他喜歡誰就誰嘛行政院長甚至可以出來講一句話叫做有這個縣市的立委有配合我中央的政策優先發給\n585514\t607401\t這個東西您學者的角度來看,您認同這句話嗎?因為他的立委知不支持我中央行政院的政策所以我的一些的預算優不優先給,給不給足我可以這樣子分配嗎?我可以這樣子嗎?我請教蕭教授補助的分配有法律規定如果依法律規定沒問題,如果\n608041\t631031\t他的目的不是基於還是沒有回答我的話我還沒講完依法依法對你講依法沒有錯我也會講依法我只問你這一句話嘛這一句話行政院的這一句院長可以講這一句話這句話的法律依據在我國是哪一條法律你立法委員配合我那我就優先給你們這句話的法律依據為何請教蕭教授\n632352\t638599\t如果立法院的內容是合乎法律規定沒問題如果立法院的內容不合乎法律規定那當然是不可以的\n639571\t661568\t重點就是我剛跟委員報告每一個立法委員他都有他自己選區的任務如果他的要求是合乎法律規定沒問題蕭教授我的問題非常的簡單行政院長講了這一句話有無法律依據要是我今天被您問我這個問題我就會說沒有法律依據啊但是\n662449\t677865\t我認同他的想法我非常支持他的想法這是一種論調第二種論調他有法律依據我就是告訴全國人民這條法律依據什麼第三種他這個東西沒有法律依據而且我不認同就這三個嘛你又再繞到別的地方去我覺得\n679386\t700285\t我沒有刁難你 你可以再回去看我今天對你的任何一個資訊我沒有刁難你 但是您都沒有回答我的問題我沒有要你回答我心中喜歡的答案 我都沒有要求這樣但是您要回答我的問題啊好沒關係 那既然一直問不到問題這塊就算了啦 我沒有期待了那我在\n702628\t728438\t其實我跟你說啦我今天來這邊證其實我很多我以前的同事打給我說這個蕭教授很好一定要讓他過等等我說沒有我一定是依據我們審查的結果也不會因為我今天不認同您或是我覺得你沒有答到問題而我就會否決你我不是這樣的人我一定是看實際怎麼樣來做但是我要講的是我都沒有聽到剛剛我問的題目的答案\n729876\t744914\t這個答案不管肯定說否定說我都沒有聽到因為繞來繞去還是等於沒有說我在請教您在德國念書嘛您剛剛有講那我也有看過您過往的一些發言我請教您一個問題\n745714\t772982\t德國的國會他有沒有調查權當然有那您之前其實有提到一個東西就是我先講一個民進黨的大前輩林卓水他曾經說過說他說第一個打造世界最弱國會的是孫中山第二個是蔣介石第三個是1993年的大法官第四個是現在的大法官那那個您之前他說我們現在台灣還繼續以五權憲法的名義在挑空國會的調查權\n775697\t795473\t然後再繼續鞏固行政院立法局的體制他把立法院變成是立法局那您之前曾經倡議過說國會行使職權法您有提到支持國會完整調查權明文界定調查傳喚罰還等等的手段跟範圍跟程序然後\n796213\t821014\t這就發生一個狀況就是您的這個東西都跟我之前在國會改革推法案的時候想法與精神都一致但是我們得到的是什麼就是被現在的青鳥以及民進黨的立委說我們是毀憲亂政法盲也就是您過往的理想以及德國現在的國會的調查權在我國會變成\n822615\t840771\t當然你可以說他們三權我們五權嘛當然是有不同之處但是這些東西在我國推行第一步就會被人家說迴憲亂政以及法盲當然我不會說你法盲因為我也是認同您的這個這個您過往的這些想法另外就是\n842268\t866410\t這一次我看到美國的國會他在調查臉書Meta公司的時候主博客到國會去作證聯邦參議員跟他說了一句話說美國人民有權了解貴公司的真相但是到我們台灣來當我們想要了解超資雞蛋疫苗採購等等的時候以及或是我們在國會改革的時候我們希望把調查權放到國會的權限裡面的時候\n867071\t893037\t有一些委員就說你們是要把這些商業秘密問完之後交給中國政府這個就是我們實務上面遇到的一些狀況跟教授您報告是現在我們遇到這個狀況因為我看到你過往在論述這個德國國會以及對我國國會的一些想法的時候我發現這個想法當然跟我是完全我非常認同您的這些想法但是這些想法目前在\n893897\t911122\t在我國的運作上以及在我國的執政黨的眼中其實我們都是在毀憲亂政所以現在我們連請監察委員監察院的官員到國會都沒辦法我們想要請國安會秘書長到國會也沒辦法所以\n912657\t940057\t我們連想請領國家薪水的人來這裡他都不願意來所以這就是我們痛苦的地方甚至我們也是嚴守大公會解釋哪一些人不需要到立法院那我們以這些人以外的人我們請他來他也是愛來就不來也不用請假也不用說明那我們毫無任何裁罰制裁任何權利都沒有我想請問一下這樣子的國會您認同嗎\n943024\t967163\t謝謝委員提問調查權當然是國會當然在台灣還包括部份監察院的權利他是一個輔助性但是我認為是不可或缺的權利尤其是當然我們現在的情況不一樣尤其是少數黨的特殊權利因為少數黨只有透過調查權才能去對抗多數黨\n968143\t986882\t所以一個調查權的好壞範圍跟實施的順暢與否這個是判斷一個國家是不是一個國會為主的或是說民主法治國家一個很最重要的一個關鍵那我們大法官解釋其實在525號解釋已經就\n987643\t1000102\t我們國家雖然是五權但是除了監察院之外立法院當然可以享有調查權這個沒有問題比較可惜的是說在525做完之後十幾年都沒有\n1003306\t1020234\t所以去年這個國會職權行使法訂定之後呢其實對很多學習憲政的來講大家終於鬆了一口氣終於國會有真正的調查權因為光靠大法官585號解釋立法院是沒有辦法因為要立法院職權行使法\n1020974\t1043949\t所以就這個國會改革法案裡面剛剛委員談到很多問題我的初衷跟我寫的書一樣不過有一點可能跟委員比較不一樣的地方就是說我針對於藐視國會要罰則這個部分我的範圍是比立法院通過的窄一點當然我不贊成用刑法我贊成用行政法\n1044569\t1062067\t是第二個呢政府官員不管是院長副院長部會首長甚至呢應邀備詢的政府官員這個有罰則但是一般人民我是不贊同有罰則謝謝那接下來就是說這個罰則呢除了行政法之外其實應該還有這個\n1064850\t1086259\t立法院的內部的處罰比如說我們以前常常看到就是說不准你來出席可是這個不准來出席剛好順了他的意啊反正他不想來你禁止他出席我覺得這個是不正確的那我們現在行政法法的種類很多所以我是贊成如果調查真的能夠實現而且重點我剛喬\n1087432\t1115409\t一再強調 調查權是要合乎立法院的職權只要合乎立法院的職權調查他不來我覺得可以用行政法去處理謝謝教授 因為時間的關係那當然教授大部分我們是一樣那教授對於說該不該有刑法以及怎麼處罰以及範圍 這個我都認同這個我完全認同 就是說這個只是對於範圍的部分大家想法不一致這個都是OK 但是主軸我們的想法是一致的\n1116650\t1133925\t我想說我最後因為時間的關係我想我在這邊提一下但是上一次國會的這個法案到最後這個都不應該有所以我們任何的一個裁法任何的一個對於官員的要求甚至我們說他來這裡不可以說謊\n1135026\t1146525\t我們連這樣子要去追究他責任的權利都沒有所以今天官員來這裡預算我們省預算的事情官員現在到國會也在說謊到外面宣講也在說謊\n1147844\t1171738\t然後國會我們看到的行政機關的網站拿公家的錢設置的網站上面寫的數據也在說謊但是我在國會我當個立法委員我完全沒有任何的權利去制裁我想這個是不對的像您剛剛提到的德國我也看過德國的資料德國他就是尊重少數黨所以他認為國會要有給他們一個就是國會有調查權才能夠讓少數黨繼續去\n1173719\t1192308\t監督這個國家一樣我們今天在台灣遇到的狀況就是當我們拿民主國家最基本有的國會的這個調查權以及監督行政權的這些權限到台灣都變成迴憲亂政我想我這個不用多說教授您也看得懂我也不讓您在這邊說一些\n1195526\t1223235\t免得你被執政黨的立委修理最後我再跟各位跟教授報告如果您有幸擔任大法官請你看一下4至791號780號他們都曾經去推翻以前大法官的解釋也就是說如果有一天你有幸當大法官請勇於對抗以前錯誤的大法官解釋好謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問也謝謝蕭教授的說明\n","txt":"蕭教授麻煩請被提名的蕭教授蕭教授早安我在擔任新北市法治局局長的時候因為那時候需要多了解一些地方自治方面的事項有拜讀過您很多資料以及您著作的書謝謝您帶給我非常多的知識\n我想我在這邊先跟蕭教授報告一下因為我昨天在詢問另外一位大法官的被提名人的時候其實我有提到就是說我認為其實我對大法官的想法並不是說要求大法官在任何一個公共議題上面想法要跟我一樣所以我不會著重在譬如說廢死與否或國會改革與否等等的這些一些細項上面\n要跟我一樣因為我認為公共政策本來就會有各種肯定說否定說所以我都會予以尊重而且跟我一時一步一樣這也不是大法官適不適格的一個重要論點但是大法官我想還是需要的一個點就是第一個他要有一定的專業度再來他必須懂得大法官是做什麼他是解釋憲法法律的衝突以及統一解釋\n那他不是創設法律嘛尤其在法律並沒有現行法律並沒有漏洞的情況下其實司法是沒有造法的這個權限的那還有一個重要的\n就是大法官有沒有勇於對抗政府的這個勇氣當然我說的對抗是告訴政府你違憲了的這個勇氣所以我覺得這是我心目中大法官應該要有的那個樣子因為我看到過往的大法官譬如說王哲健 翁岳昇 吳根等等這些大法官其實他們在歷次有重要的法案的時候譬如說檢察官的搜索權\n譬如說集會遊行法行政機關的預先審查等等他們都展現了對抗當時執政黨的勇氣但是我看不到現在的大法官還擁有這樣的勇氣所以我今天有個標題在前面就是不要與神同行要與人民同戰\n因為大法官是全民的大法官是保護我們的大法官是保護我國憲政體制的大法官不是保護執政黨的大法官這是我對於大法官的我心裡的一個期待我想蕭教授\n我不知道您有沒有聽過一句話財政是樹木之母 缺少自主可自由運用的財政經費地方自治團體無法享有自我負責決定之權而僅是中央政府的下一機關這句話您應該很清楚吧對這是您自己書裡面地方自治法基礎理論與實務2019年版第89頁的一句話這應該您很清楚\n照你的書上面寫,您應該是非常認同地方的財政自主權,是不是?是或不是?當然啦,你要保,憲法如果要保障地方自治,人跟錢是一定要的好,那謝謝齁,那我今天想要跟你討論就是這個部分因為最近發生了一個事情,您一定非常清楚,就是行政院他刪除地方政府的一般性補助款,總額達到636億\n那內政部長劉世芳除了大喊說我們是台灣國大喊說要改路民然後恐嚇大家租屋的補助金不夠然後告訴大家說但是改路民都有錢在這些狀況之下這些都是涉及地方跟中央政府之間的事項我想說因為你對這塊很有研究所以我要請教你相關的這些議題\n我想在你的書裡面有提到一個點就是地方政府他在履行地方法定義務任務以及辦理最低程度的自治思想所需的經費中央不得已缺乏財政上幾副能力而置之不理這個您認同嗎\n這您書裡面寫的?這當然啦那我想請教第一個問題就是這次行政院主席總署他不分縣市的財政狀況齊頭市的停發27%的一般性補助款他這個嚴重衝擊到幾個財政狀況比較不佳的縣市例如說宜蘭縣譬如說苗栗縣\n那這些錢呢 他本來應該是用在一些那個社會福利制度啦 例如老人照顧啦學校營養午餐啦 等等的齁而且這些經費是早在去年8月 主席總署就已經核定了而且各地的議會也已經三讀通過裡面甚至還包括到一些警消 還有一些交通的基礎建設的經費那地方也都發包了 然後突然間中央說這個錢不可以給 你覺得\n你覺得這樣子地方還有所謂的財政自主權嗎我可以回答嗎可以 請說\n首先就是有關於地方自治財政的問題我想這個是任何一個憲法保障地方自治的國家都應該要全力支援的為了要讓地方有充分的財源我們在地制法63條64條65條都規定了地方有10種不同的收入除了地方自己的收入之外中央給地方的兩個最大的財政的資助跟補助是統籌分配款還有補助款統籌分配款基本上是法定的\n也就是說統籌分配款用法律的規定統籌分配我沒有問題這一般性補助款補助款基本上不是固定稅源因為補助款的解釋在大法官釋字498號解釋有對補助款有充分的說明\n那基本上補助款因為他沒有固定的稅源所以基本上他應該是由中央政府或者上級政府依照他的財政來支援但是我們國家比較特別的一點就是說不管是在財政收支劃分法或是這個地方制度法我們都只有單純講補助款那委員所提示的一般補助款跟計劃性補助款是在行政院所定的辦法\n所以我們憲法裡面並沒有分這個一般的補助款跟計劃型的補助款所以大法官4-498號他講得非常清楚就是說中央對地方自治團體得市期財政狀況予以適當的補助那重點就是剛剛委員所講的使地方自治團體能夠支應他財政的基本需求保障所有的國民都有一定程度的基本的經濟生活\n那我覺得這個目的是最重要的那現在最大的問題就是說委員所提出來的補助款裡面特別針對一般型的補助款因為大家都知道計畫型的補助款這個不是義務我們不要再扯到計畫型一般型的補助款到底有沒有義務持續給\n站在憲法的角度來講是沒有但是站在法律的角度這個就可以討論因為我們行政法裡面有一個基本上的一個原則那個我跟你講因為我只有20分鐘的時間問你我想你一直要扯到理論很遠去我就想說不需要我簡單的就是一般性補助團\n沒關係我了解的所以對於這個齊頭市的27%一般性補助款中央行政院說要刪除您是支持對不對我了解您這個講法就好不是不是我還沒講完就是說如果一般型的補助款它經過行政機關長期實務的運作它變成一種行政慣例過往沒有刪過加上行政程序法第六條的規定它就有對外的拘束力\n只是說好那如果照你這樣講那中央就不應該刪啊他已經過往的慣例而且有對外的拘束力嘛\n過往的慣例是沒錯,但是假設啦,我們前提有假設沒有假設,那個蕭教授,我不是來這裡跟你辯論喔蕭教授,我是來請教你對於公共議題的想法那你如果要假設要扯到統籌分配款,扯到計畫性補助款,那個都不在我的問題範圍內假設中央的財政沒有減少,應該給\n這是我的想法因為我們立法院自己來訂了一個規定說今年的不能比去年少你要繞來繞去 我跟你講我認為的大法官我剛一開始我就講了要有勇氣對抗政府當然你可以我沒有說你一定要認同我們的想法或認同中央的想法但是我們要有個勇氣說我的想法是什麼\n沒關係啦 就這樣啦 我問到這裡我還是問不出我要的我的問題 其實我說真的 我是這樣我沒有要求每個人要回答我要的答案但是要就我的問題去回答那我請教你一個最簡單的問題 這你一定有辦法回答地方跟中央的關係 地方是中央的吹喊嗎\n當然不是 兩個是獨立的公法人對 所以中央跟地方它是一個垂直分權的關係對不對但是我們現在實務上面的運作變成是地方要苦苦哀求中央耶您知道地方現在實務運作變成這樣嗎然後中央今天他在預算的分配上面他喜歡誰就誰嘛行政院長甚至可以出來講一句話叫做有這個縣市的立委有配合我中央的政策優先發給\n這個東西您學者的角度來看,您認同這句話嗎?因為他的立委知不支持我中央行政院的政策所以我的一些的預算優不優先給,給不給足我可以這樣子分配嗎?我可以這樣子嗎?我請教蕭教授補助的分配有法律規定如果依法律規定沒問題,如果\n他的目的不是基於還是沒有回答我的話我還沒講完依法依法對你講依法沒有錯我也會講依法我只問你這一句話嘛這一句話行政院的這一句院長可以講這一句話這句話的法律依據在我國是哪一條法律你立法委員配合我那我就優先給你們這句話的法律依據為何請教蕭教授\n如果立法院的內容是合乎法律規定沒問題如果立法院的內容不合乎法律規定那當然是不可以的\n重點就是我剛跟委員報告每一個立法委員他都有他自己選區的任務如果他的要求是合乎法律規定沒問題蕭教授我的問題非常的簡單行政院長講了這一句話有無法律依據要是我今天被您問我這個問題我就會說沒有法律依據啊但是\n我認同他的想法我非常支持他的想法這是一種論調第二種論調他有法律依據我就是告訴全國人民這條法律依據什麼第三種他這個東西沒有法律依據而且我不認同就這三個嘛你又再繞到別的地方去我覺得\n我沒有刁難你 你可以再回去看我今天對你的任何一個資訊我沒有刁難你 但是您都沒有回答我的問題我沒有要你回答我心中喜歡的答案 我都沒有要求這樣但是您要回答我的問題啊好沒關係 那既然一直問不到問題這塊就算了啦 我沒有期待了那我在\n其實我跟你說啦我今天來這邊證其實我很多我以前的同事打給我說這個蕭教授很好一定要讓他過等等我說沒有我一定是依據我們審查的結果也不會因為我今天不認同您或是我覺得你沒有答到問題而我就會否決你我不是這樣的人我一定是看實際怎麼樣來做但是我要講的是我都沒有聽到剛剛我問的題目的答案\n這個答案不管肯定說否定說我都沒有聽到因為繞來繞去還是等於沒有說我在請教您在德國念書嘛您剛剛有講那我也有看過您過往的一些發言我請教您一個問題\n德國的國會他有沒有調查權當然有那您之前其實有提到一個東西就是我先講一個民進黨的大前輩林卓水他曾經說過說他說第一個打造世界最弱國會的是孫中山第二個是蔣介石第三個是1993年的大法官第四個是現在的大法官那那個您之前他說我們現在台灣還繼續以五權憲法的名義在挑空國會的調查權\n然後再繼續鞏固行政院立法局的體制他把立法院變成是立法局那您之前曾經倡議過說國會行使職權法您有提到支持國會完整調查權明文界定調查傳喚罰還等等的手段跟範圍跟程序然後\n這就發生一個狀況就是您的這個東西都跟我之前在國會改革推法案的時候想法與精神都一致但是我們得到的是什麼就是被現在的青鳥以及民進黨的立委說我們是毀憲亂政法盲也就是您過往的理想以及德國現在的國會的調查權在我國會變成\n當然你可以說他們三權我們五權嘛當然是有不同之處但是這些東西在我國推行第一步就會被人家說迴憲亂政以及法盲當然我不會說你法盲因為我也是認同您的這個這個您過往的這些想法另外就是\n這一次我看到美國的國會他在調查臉書Meta公司的時候主博客到國會去作證聯邦參議員跟他說了一句話說美國人民有權了解貴公司的真相但是到我們台灣來當我們想要了解超資雞蛋疫苗採購等等的時候以及或是我們在國會改革的時候我們希望把調查權放到國會的權限裡面的時候\n有一些委員就說你們是要把這些商業秘密問完之後交給中國政府這個就是我們實務上面遇到的一些狀況跟教授您報告是現在我們遇到這個狀況因為我看到你過往在論述這個德國國會以及對我國國會的一些想法的時候我發現這個想法當然跟我是完全我非常認同您的這些想法但是這些想法目前在\n在我國的運作上以及在我國的執政黨的眼中其實我們都是在毀憲亂政所以現在我們連請監察委員監察院的官員到國會都沒辦法我們想要請國安會秘書長到國會也沒辦法所以\n我們連想請領國家薪水的人來這裡他都不願意來所以這就是我們痛苦的地方甚至我們也是嚴守大公會解釋哪一些人不需要到立法院那我們以這些人以外的人我們請他來他也是愛來就不來也不用請假也不用說明那我們毫無任何裁罰制裁任何權利都沒有我想請問一下這樣子的國會您認同嗎\n謝謝委員提問調查權當然是國會當然在台灣還包括部份監察院的權利他是一個輔助性但是我認為是不可或缺的權利尤其是當然我們現在的情況不一樣尤其是少數黨的特殊權利因為少數黨只有透過調查權才能去對抗多數黨\n所以一個調查權的好壞範圍跟實施的順暢與否這個是判斷一個國家是不是一個國會為主的或是說民主法治國家一個很最重要的一個關鍵那我們大法官解釋其實在525號解釋已經就\n我們國家雖然是五權但是除了監察院之外立法院當然可以享有調查權這個沒有問題比較可惜的是說在525做完之後十幾年都沒有\n所以去年這個國會職權行使法訂定之後呢其實對很多學習憲政的來講大家終於鬆了一口氣終於國會有真正的調查權因為光靠大法官585號解釋立法院是沒有辦法因為要立法院職權行使法\n所以就這個國會改革法案裡面剛剛委員談到很多問題我的初衷跟我寫的書一樣不過有一點可能跟委員比較不一樣的地方就是說我針對於藐視國會要罰則這個部分我的範圍是比立法院通過的窄一點當然我不贊成用刑法我贊成用行政法\n是第二個呢政府官員不管是院長副院長部會首長甚至呢應邀備詢的政府官員這個有罰則但是一般人民我是不贊同有罰則謝謝那接下來就是說這個罰則呢除了行政法之外其實應該還有這個\n立法院的內部的處罰比如說我們以前常常看到就是說不准你來出席可是這個不准來出席剛好順了他的意啊反正他不想來你禁止他出席我覺得這個是不正確的那我們現在行政法法的種類很多所以我是贊成如果調查真的能夠實現而且重點我剛喬\n一再強調 調查權是要合乎立法院的職權只要合乎立法院的職權調查他不來我覺得可以用行政法去處理謝謝教授 因為時間的關係那當然教授大部分我們是一樣那教授對於說該不該有刑法以及怎麼處罰以及範圍 這個我都認同這個我完全認同 就是說這個只是對於範圍的部分大家想法不一致這個都是OK 但是主軸我們的想法是一致的\n我想說我最後因為時間的關係我想我在這邊提一下但是上一次國會的這個法案到最後這個都不應該有所以我們任何的一個裁法任何的一個對於官員的要求甚至我們說他來這裡不可以說謊\n我們連這樣子要去追究他責任的權利都沒有所以今天官員來這裡預算我們省預算的事情官員現在到國會也在說謊到外面宣講也在說謊\n然後國會我們看到的行政機關的網站拿公家的錢設置的網站上面寫的數據也在說謊但是我在國會我當個立法委員我完全沒有任何的權利去制裁我想這個是不對的像您剛剛提到的德國我也看過德國的資料德國他就是尊重少數黨所以他認為國會要有給他們一個就是國會有調查權才能夠讓少數黨繼續去\n監督這個國家一樣我們今天在台灣遇到的狀況就是當我們拿民主國家最基本有的國會的這個調查權以及監督行政權的這些權限到台灣都變成迴憲亂政我想我這個不用多說教授您也看得懂我也不讓您在這邊說一些\n免得你被執政黨的立委修理最後我再跟各位跟教授報告如果您有幸擔任大法官請你看一下4至791號780號他們都曾經去推翻以前大法官的解釋也就是說如果有一天你有幸當大法官請勇於對抗以前錯誤的大法官解釋好謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問也謝謝蕭教授的說明\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.229 --> 00:27.655\n蕭教授麻煩請被提名的蕭教授蕭教授早安我在擔任新北市法治局局長的時候因為那時候需要多了解一些地方自治方面的事項有拜讀過您很多資料以及您著作的書謝謝您帶給我非常多的知識\n\n00:29.046 --> 00:53.253\n我想我在這邊先跟蕭教授報告一下因為我昨天在詢問另外一位大法官的被提名人的時候其實我有提到就是說我認為其實我對大法官的想法並不是說要求大法官在任何一個公共議題上面想法要跟我一樣所以我不會著重在譬如說廢死與否或國會改革與否等等的這些一些細項上面\n\n00:54.173 --> 01:17.215\n要跟我一樣因為我認為公共政策本來就會有各種肯定說否定說所以我都會予以尊重而且跟我一時一步一樣這也不是大法官適不適格的一個重要論點但是大法官我想還是需要的一個點就是第一個他要有一定的專業度再來他必須懂得大法官是做什麼他是解釋憲法法律的衝突以及統一解釋\n\n01:18.291 --> 01:31.137\n那他不是創設法律嘛尤其在法律並沒有現行法律並沒有漏洞的情況下其實司法是沒有造法的這個權限的那還有一個重要的\n\n01:32.385 --> 01:58.287\n就是大法官有沒有勇於對抗政府的這個勇氣當然我說的對抗是告訴政府你違憲了的這個勇氣所以我覺得這是我心目中大法官應該要有的那個樣子因為我看到過往的大法官譬如說王哲健翁岳昇吳根等等這些大法官其實他們在歷次有重要的法案的時候譬如說檢察官的搜索權\n\n01:59.048 --> 02:15.893\n譬如說集會遊行法行政機關的預先審查等等他們都展現了對抗當時執政黨的勇氣但是我看不到現在的大法官還擁有這樣的勇氣所以我今天有個標題在前面就是不要與神同行要與人民同戰\n\n02:16.633 --> 02:31.489\n因為大法官是全民的大法官是保護我們的大法官是保護我國憲政體制的大法官不是保護執政黨的大法官這是我對於大法官的我心裡的一個期待我想蕭教授\n\n02:32.435 --> 02:53.953\n我不知道您有沒有聽過一句話財政是樹木之母缺少自主可自由運用的財政經費地方自治團體無法享有自我負責決定之權而僅是中央政府的下一機關這句話您應該很清楚吧對這是您自己書裡面地方自治法基礎理論與實務2019年版第89頁的一句話這應該您很清楚\n\n02:58.376 --> 03:22.095\n照你的書上面寫,您應該是非常認同地方的財政自主權,是不是?是或不是?當然啦,你要保,憲法如果要保障地方自治,人跟錢是一定要的好,那謝謝齁,那我今天想要跟你討論就是這個部分因為最近發生了一個事情,您一定非常清楚,就是行政院他刪除地方政府的一般性補助款,總額達到636億\n\n03:25.218 --> 03:48.698\n那內政部長劉世芳除了大喊說我們是台灣國大喊說要改路民然後恐嚇大家租屋的補助金不夠然後告訴大家說但是改路民都有錢在這些狀況之下這些都是涉及地方跟中央政府之間的事項我想說因為你對這塊很有研究所以我要請教你相關的這些議題\n\n03:50.660 --> 04:04.166\n我想在你的書裡面有提到一個點就是地方政府他在履行地方法定義務任務以及辦理最低程度的自治思想所需的經費中央不得已缺乏財政上幾副能力而置之不理這個您認同嗎\n\n04:06.447 --> 04:27.433\n這您書裡面寫的?這當然啦那我想請教第一個問題就是這次行政院主席總署他不分縣市的財政狀況齊頭市的停發27%的一般性補助款他這個嚴重衝擊到幾個財政狀況比較不佳的縣市例如說宜蘭縣譬如說苗栗縣\n\n04:28.453 --> 04:55.580\n那這些錢呢他本來應該是用在一些那個社會福利制度啦例如老人照顧啦學校營養午餐啦等等的齁而且這些經費是早在去年8月主席總署就已經核定了而且各地的議會也已經三讀通過裡面甚至還包括到一些警消還有一些交通的基礎建設的經費那地方也都發包了然後突然間中央說這個錢不可以給你覺得\n\n04:56.960 --> 05:01.796\n你覺得這樣子地方還有所謂的財政自主權嗎我可以回答嗎可以請說\n\n05:02.799 --> 05:32.181\n首先就是有關於地方自治財政的問題我想這個是任何一個憲法保障地方自治的國家都應該要全力支援的為了要讓地方有充分的財源我們在地制法63條64條65條都規定了地方有10種不同的收入除了地方自己的收入之外中央給地方的兩個最大的財政的資助跟補助是統籌分配款還有補助款統籌分配款基本上是法定的\n\n05:33.407 --> 05:52.258\n也就是說統籌分配款用法律的規定統籌分配我沒有問題這一般性補助款補助款基本上不是固定稅源因為補助款的解釋在大法官釋字498號解釋有對補助款有充分的說明\n\n05:53.188 --> 06:21.415\n那基本上補助款因為他沒有固定的稅源所以基本上他應該是由中央政府或者上級政府依照他的財政來支援但是我們國家比較特別的一點就是說不管是在財政收支劃分法或是這個地方制度法我們都只有單純講補助款那委員所提示的一般補助款跟計劃性補助款是在行政院所定的辦法\n\n06:22.643 --> 06:49.327\n所以我們憲法裡面並沒有分這個一般的補助款跟計劃型的補助款所以大法官4-498號他講得非常清楚就是說中央對地方自治團體得市期財政狀況予以適當的補助那重點就是剛剛委員所講的使地方自治團體能夠支應他財政的基本需求保障所有的國民都有一定程度的基本的經濟生活\n\n06:49.867 --> 07:08.084\n那我覺得這個目的是最重要的那現在最大的問題就是說委員所提出來的補助款裡面特別針對一般型的補助款因為大家都知道計畫型的補助款這個不是義務我們不要再扯到計畫型一般型的補助款到底有沒有義務持續給\n\n07:10.543 --> 07:29.259\n站在憲法的角度來講是沒有但是站在法律的角度這個就可以討論因為我們行政法裡面有一個基本上的一個原則那個我跟你講因為我只有20分鐘的時間問你我想你一直要扯到理論很遠去我就想說不需要我簡單的就是一般性補助團\n\n07:30.160 --> 07:58.229\n沒關係我了解的所以對於這個齊頭市的27%一般性補助款中央行政院說要刪除您是支持對不對我了解您這個講法就好不是不是我還沒講完就是說如果一般型的補助款它經過行政機關長期實務的運作它變成一種行政慣例過往沒有刪過加上行政程序法第六條的規定它就有對外的拘束力\n\n07:58.849 --> 08:05.817\n只是說好那如果照你這樣講那中央就不應該刪啊他已經過往的慣例而且有對外的拘束力嘛\n\n08:06.605 --> 08:29.393\n過往的慣例是沒錯,但是假設啦,我們前提有假設沒有假設,那個蕭教授,我不是來這裡跟你辯論喔蕭教授,我是來請教你對於公共議題的想法那你如果要假設要扯到統籌分配款,扯到計畫性補助款,那個都不在我的問題範圍內假設中央的財政沒有減少,應該給\n\n08:32.313 --> 08:51.243\n這是我的想法因為我們立法院自己來訂了一個規定說今年的不能比去年少你要繞來繞去我跟你講我認為的大法官我剛一開始我就講了要有勇氣對抗政府當然你可以我沒有說你一定要認同我們的想法或認同中央的想法但是我們要有個勇氣說我的想法是什麼\n\n08:52.899 --> 09:16.021\n沒關係啦就這樣啦我問到這裡我還是問不出我要的我的問題其實我說真的我是這樣我沒有要求每個人要回答我要的答案但是要就我的問題去回答那我請教你一個最簡單的問題這你一定有辦法回答地方跟中央的關係地方是中央的吹喊嗎\n\n09:17.094 --> 09:43.873\n當然不是兩個是獨立的公法人對所以中央跟地方它是一個垂直分權的關係對不對但是我們現在實務上面的運作變成是地方要苦苦哀求中央耶您知道地方現在實務運作變成這樣嗎然後中央今天他在預算的分配上面他喜歡誰就誰嘛行政院長甚至可以出來講一句話叫做有這個縣市的立委有配合我中央的政策優先發給\n\n09:45.514 --> 10:07.401\n這個東西您學者的角度來看,您認同這句話嗎?因為他的立委知不支持我中央行政院的政策所以我的一些的預算優不優先給,給不給足我可以這樣子分配嗎?我可以這樣子嗎?我請教蕭教授補助的分配有法律規定如果依法律規定沒問題,如果\n\n10:08.041 --> 10:31.031\n他的目的不是基於還是沒有回答我的話我還沒講完依法依法對你講依法沒有錯我也會講依法我只問你這一句話嘛這一句話行政院的這一句院長可以講這一句話這句話的法律依據在我國是哪一條法律你立法委員配合我那我就優先給你們這句話的法律依據為何請教蕭教授\n\n10:32.352 --> 10:38.599\n如果立法院的內容是合乎法律規定沒問題如果立法院的內容不合乎法律規定那當然是不可以的\n\n10:39.571 --> 11:01.568\n重點就是我剛跟委員報告每一個立法委員他都有他自己選區的任務如果他的要求是合乎法律規定沒問題蕭教授我的問題非常的簡單行政院長講了這一句話有無法律依據要是我今天被您問我這個問題我就會說沒有法律依據啊但是\n\n11:02.449 --> 11:17.865\n我認同他的想法我非常支持他的想法這是一種論調第二種論調他有法律依據我就是告訴全國人民這條法律依據什麼第三種他這個東西沒有法律依據而且我不認同就這三個嘛你又再繞到別的地方去我覺得\n\n11:19.386 --> 11:40.285\n我沒有刁難你你可以再回去看我今天對你的任何一個資訊我沒有刁難你但是您都沒有回答我的問題我沒有要你回答我心中喜歡的答案我都沒有要求這樣但是您要回答我的問題啊好沒關係那既然一直問不到問題這塊就算了啦我沒有期待了那我在\n\n11:42.628 --> 12:08.438\n其實我跟你說啦我今天來這邊證其實我很多我以前的同事打給我說這個蕭教授很好一定要讓他過等等我說沒有我一定是依據我們審查的結果也不會因為我今天不認同您或是我覺得你沒有答到問題而我就會否決你我不是這樣的人我一定是看實際怎麼樣來做但是我要講的是我都沒有聽到剛剛我問的題目的答案\n\n12:09.876 --> 12:24.914\n這個答案不管肯定說否定說我都沒有聽到因為繞來繞去還是等於沒有說我在請教您在德國念書嘛您剛剛有講那我也有看過您過往的一些發言我請教您一個問題\n\n12:25.714 --> 12:52.982\n德國的國會他有沒有調查權當然有那您之前其實有提到一個東西就是我先講一個民進黨的大前輩林卓水他曾經說過說他說第一個打造世界最弱國會的是孫中山第二個是蔣介石第三個是1993年的大法官第四個是現在的大法官那那個您之前他說我們現在台灣還繼續以五權憲法的名義在挑空國會的調查權\n\n12:55.697 --> 13:15.473\n然後再繼續鞏固行政院立法局的體制他把立法院變成是立法局那您之前曾經倡議過說國會行使職權法您有提到支持國會完整調查權明文界定調查傳喚罰還等等的手段跟範圍跟程序然後\n\n13:16.213 --> 13:41.014\n這就發生一個狀況就是您的這個東西都跟我之前在國會改革推法案的時候想法與精神都一致但是我們得到的是什麼就是被現在的青鳥以及民進黨的立委說我們是毀憲亂政法盲也就是您過往的理想以及德國現在的國會的調查權在我國會變成\n\n13:42.615 --> 14:00.771\n當然你可以說他們三權我們五權嘛當然是有不同之處但是這些東西在我國推行第一步就會被人家說迴憲亂政以及法盲當然我不會說你法盲因為我也是認同您的這個這個您過往的這些想法另外就是\n\n14:02.268 --> 14:26.410\n這一次我看到美國的國會他在調查臉書Meta公司的時候主博客到國會去作證聯邦參議員跟他說了一句話說美國人民有權了解貴公司的真相但是到我們台灣來當我們想要了解超資雞蛋疫苗採購等等的時候以及或是我們在國會改革的時候我們希望把調查權放到國會的權限裡面的時候\n\n14:27.071 --> 14:53.037\n有一些委員就說你們是要把這些商業秘密問完之後交給中國政府這個就是我們實務上面遇到的一些狀況跟教授您報告是現在我們遇到這個狀況因為我看到你過往在論述這個德國國會以及對我國國會的一些想法的時候我發現這個想法當然跟我是完全我非常認同您的這些想法但是這些想法目前在\n\n14:53.897 --> 15:11.122\n在我國的運作上以及在我國的執政黨的眼中其實我們都是在毀憲亂政所以現在我們連請監察委員監察院的官員到國會都沒辦法我們想要請國安會秘書長到國會也沒辦法所以\n\n15:12.657 --> 15:40.057\n我們連想請領國家薪水的人來這裡他都不願意來所以這就是我們痛苦的地方甚至我們也是嚴守大公會解釋哪一些人不需要到立法院那我們以這些人以外的人我們請他來他也是愛來就不來也不用請假也不用說明那我們毫無任何裁罰制裁任何權利都沒有我想請問一下這樣子的國會您認同嗎\n\n15:43.024 --> 16:07.163\n謝謝委員提問調查權當然是國會當然在台灣還包括部份監察院的權利他是一個輔助性但是我認為是不可或缺的權利尤其是當然我們現在的情況不一樣尤其是少數黨的特殊權利因為少數黨只有透過調查權才能去對抗多數黨\n\n16:08.143 --> 16:26.882\n所以一個調查權的好壞範圍跟實施的順暢與否這個是判斷一個國家是不是一個國會為主的或是說民主法治國家一個很最重要的一個關鍵那我們大法官解釋其實在525號解釋已經就\n\n16:27.643 --> 16:40.102\n我們國家雖然是五權但是除了監察院之外立法院當然可以享有調查權這個沒有問題比較可惜的是說在525做完之後十幾年都沒有\n\n16:43.306 --> 17:00.234\n所以去年這個國會職權行使法訂定之後呢其實對很多學習憲政的來講大家終於鬆了一口氣終於國會有真正的調查權因為光靠大法官585號解釋立法院是沒有辦法因為要立法院職權行使法\n\n17:00.974 --> 17:23.949\n所以就這個國會改革法案裡面剛剛委員談到很多問題我的初衷跟我寫的書一樣不過有一點可能跟委員比較不一樣的地方就是說我針對於藐視國會要罰則這個部分我的範圍是比立法院通過的窄一點當然我不贊成用刑法我贊成用行政法\n\n17:24.569 --> 17:42.067\n是第二個呢政府官員不管是院長副院長部會首長甚至呢應邀備詢的政府官員這個有罰則但是一般人民我是不贊同有罰則謝謝那接下來就是說這個罰則呢除了行政法之外其實應該還有這個\n\n17:44.850 --> 18:06.259\n立法院的內部的處罰比如說我們以前常常看到就是說不准你來出席可是這個不准來出席剛好順了他的意啊反正他不想來你禁止他出席我覺得這個是不正確的那我們現在行政法法的種類很多所以我是贊成如果調查真的能夠實現而且重點我剛喬\n\n18:07.432 --> 18:35.409\n一再強調調查權是要合乎立法院的職權只要合乎立法院的職權調查他不來我覺得可以用行政法去處理謝謝教授因為時間的關係那當然教授大部分我們是一樣那教授對於說該不該有刑法以及怎麼處罰以及範圍這個我都認同這個我完全認同就是說這個只是對於範圍的部分大家想法不一致這個都是OK但是主軸我們的想法是一致的\n\n18:36.650 --> 18:53.925\n我想說我最後因為時間的關係我想我在這邊提一下但是上一次國會的這個法案到最後這個都不應該有所以我們任何的一個裁法任何的一個對於官員的要求甚至我們說他來這裡不可以說謊\n\n18:55.026 --> 19:06.525\n我們連這樣子要去追究他責任的權利都沒有所以今天官員來這裡預算我們省預算的事情官員現在到國會也在說謊到外面宣講也在說謊\n\n19:07.844 --> 19:31.738\n然後國會我們看到的行政機關的網站拿公家的錢設置的網站上面寫的數據也在說謊但是我在國會我當個立法委員我完全沒有任何的權利去制裁我想這個是不對的像您剛剛提到的德國我也看過德國的資料德國他就是尊重少數黨所以他認為國會要有給他們一個就是國會有調查權才能夠讓少數黨繼續去\n\n19:33.719 --> 19:52.308\n監督這個國家一樣我們今天在台灣遇到的狀況就是當我們拿民主國家最基本有的國會的這個調查權以及監督行政權的這些權限到台灣都變成迴憲亂政我想我這個不用多說教授您也看得懂我也不讓您在這邊說一些\n\n19:55.526 --> 20:23.235\n免得你被執政黨的立委修理最後我再跟各位跟教授報告如果您有幸擔任大法官請你看一下4至791號780號他們都曾經去推翻以前大法官的解釋也就是說如果有一天你有幸當大法官請勇於對抗以前錯誤的大法官解釋好謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問也謝謝蕭教授的說明\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.229,"end":27.655,"text":"蕭教授麻煩請被提名的蕭教授蕭教授早安我在擔任新北市法治局局長的時候因為那時候需要多了解一些地方自治方面的事項有拜讀過您很多資料以及您著作的書謝謝您帶給我非常多的知識"},{"start":29.046,"end":53.253,"text":"我想我在這邊先跟蕭教授報告一下因為我昨天在詢問另外一位大法官的被提名人的時候其實我有提到就是說我認為其實我對大法官的想法並不是說要求大法官在任何一個公共議題上面想法要跟我一樣所以我不會著重在譬如說廢死與否或國會改革與否等等的這些一些細項上面"},{"start":54.173,"end":77.215,"text":"要跟我一樣因為我認為公共政策本來就會有各種肯定說否定說所以我都會予以尊重而且跟我一時一步一樣這也不是大法官適不適格的一個重要論點但是大法官我想還是需要的一個點就是第一個他要有一定的專業度再來他必須懂得大法官是做什麼他是解釋憲法法律的衝突以及統一解釋"},{"start":78.291,"end":91.137,"text":"那他不是創設法律嘛尤其在法律並沒有現行法律並沒有漏洞的情況下其實司法是沒有造法的這個權限的那還有一個重要的"},{"start":92.385,"end":118.287,"text":"就是大法官有沒有勇於對抗政府的這個勇氣當然我說的對抗是告訴政府你違憲了的這個勇氣所以我覺得這是我心目中大法官應該要有的那個樣子因為我看到過往的大法官譬如說王哲健 翁岳昇 吳根等等這些大法官其實他們在歷次有重要的法案的時候譬如說檢察官的搜索權"},{"start":119.048,"end":135.893,"text":"譬如說集會遊行法行政機關的預先審查等等他們都展現了對抗當時執政黨的勇氣但是我看不到現在的大法官還擁有這樣的勇氣所以我今天有個標題在前面就是不要與神同行要與人民同戰"},{"start":136.633,"end":151.489,"text":"因為大法官是全民的大法官是保護我們的大法官是保護我國憲政體制的大法官不是保護執政黨的大法官這是我對於大法官的我心裡的一個期待我想蕭教授"},{"start":152.435,"end":173.953,"text":"我不知道您有沒有聽過一句話財政是樹木之母 缺少自主可自由運用的財政經費地方自治團體無法享有自我負責決定之權而僅是中央政府的下一機關這句話您應該很清楚吧對這是您自己書裡面地方自治法基礎理論與實務2019年版第89頁的一句話這應該您很清楚"},{"start":178.376,"end":202.095,"text":"照你的書上面寫,您應該是非常認同地方的財政自主權,是不是?是或不是?當然啦,你要保,憲法如果要保障地方自治,人跟錢是一定要的好,那謝謝齁,那我今天想要跟你討論就是這個部分因為最近發生了一個事情,您一定非常清楚,就是行政院他刪除地方政府的一般性補助款,總額達到636億"},{"start":205.218,"end":228.698,"text":"那內政部長劉世芳除了大喊說我們是台灣國大喊說要改路民然後恐嚇大家租屋的補助金不夠然後告訴大家說但是改路民都有錢在這些狀況之下這些都是涉及地方跟中央政府之間的事項我想說因為你對這塊很有研究所以我要請教你相關的這些議題"},{"start":230.66,"end":244.166,"text":"我想在你的書裡面有提到一個點就是地方政府他在履行地方法定義務任務以及辦理最低程度的自治思想所需的經費中央不得已缺乏財政上幾副能力而置之不理這個您認同嗎"},{"start":246.447,"end":267.433,"text":"這您書裡面寫的?這當然啦那我想請教第一個問題就是這次行政院主席總署他不分縣市的財政狀況齊頭市的停發27%的一般性補助款他這個嚴重衝擊到幾個財政狀況比較不佳的縣市例如說宜蘭縣譬如說苗栗縣"},{"start":268.453,"end":295.58,"text":"那這些錢呢 他本來應該是用在一些那個社會福利制度啦 例如老人照顧啦學校營養午餐啦 等等的齁而且這些經費是早在去年8月 主席總署就已經核定了而且各地的議會也已經三讀通過裡面甚至還包括到一些警消 還有一些交通的基礎建設的經費那地方也都發包了 然後突然間中央說這個錢不可以給 你覺得"},{"start":296.96,"end":301.796,"text":"你覺得這樣子地方還有所謂的財政自主權嗎我可以回答嗎可以 請說"},{"start":302.799,"end":332.181,"text":"首先就是有關於地方自治財政的問題我想這個是任何一個憲法保障地方自治的國家都應該要全力支援的為了要讓地方有充分的財源我們在地制法63條64條65條都規定了地方有10種不同的收入除了地方自己的收入之外中央給地方的兩個最大的財政的資助跟補助是統籌分配款還有補助款統籌分配款基本上是法定的"},{"start":333.407,"end":352.258,"text":"也就是說統籌分配款用法律的規定統籌分配我沒有問題這一般性補助款補助款基本上不是固定稅源因為補助款的解釋在大法官釋字498號解釋有對補助款有充分的說明"},{"start":353.188,"end":381.415,"text":"那基本上補助款因為他沒有固定的稅源所以基本上他應該是由中央政府或者上級政府依照他的財政來支援但是我們國家比較特別的一點就是說不管是在財政收支劃分法或是這個地方制度法我們都只有單純講補助款那委員所提示的一般補助款跟計劃性補助款是在行政院所定的辦法"},{"start":382.643,"end":409.327,"text":"所以我們憲法裡面並沒有分這個一般的補助款跟計劃型的補助款所以大法官4-498號他講得非常清楚就是說中央對地方自治團體得市期財政狀況予以適當的補助那重點就是剛剛委員所講的使地方自治團體能夠支應他財政的基本需求保障所有的國民都有一定程度的基本的經濟生活"},{"start":409.867,"end":428.084,"text":"那我覺得這個目的是最重要的那現在最大的問題就是說委員所提出來的補助款裡面特別針對一般型的補助款因為大家都知道計畫型的補助款這個不是義務我們不要再扯到計畫型一般型的補助款到底有沒有義務持續給"},{"start":430.543,"end":449.259,"text":"站在憲法的角度來講是沒有但是站在法律的角度這個就可以討論因為我們行政法裡面有一個基本上的一個原則那個我跟你講因為我只有20分鐘的時間問你我想你一直要扯到理論很遠去我就想說不需要我簡單的就是一般性補助團"},{"start":450.16,"end":478.229,"text":"沒關係我了解的所以對於這個齊頭市的27%一般性補助款中央行政院說要刪除您是支持對不對我了解您這個講法就好不是不是我還沒講完就是說如果一般型的補助款它經過行政機關長期實務的運作它變成一種行政慣例過往沒有刪過加上行政程序法第六條的規定它就有對外的拘束力"},{"start":478.849,"end":485.817,"text":"只是說好那如果照你這樣講那中央就不應該刪啊他已經過往的慣例而且有對外的拘束力嘛"},{"start":486.605,"end":509.393,"text":"過往的慣例是沒錯,但是假設啦,我們前提有假設沒有假設,那個蕭教授,我不是來這裡跟你辯論喔蕭教授,我是來請教你對於公共議題的想法那你如果要假設要扯到統籌分配款,扯到計畫性補助款,那個都不在我的問題範圍內假設中央的財政沒有減少,應該給"},{"start":512.313,"end":531.243,"text":"這是我的想法因為我們立法院自己來訂了一個規定說今年的不能比去年少你要繞來繞去 我跟你講我認為的大法官我剛一開始我就講了要有勇氣對抗政府當然你可以我沒有說你一定要認同我們的想法或認同中央的想法但是我們要有個勇氣說我的想法是什麼"},{"start":532.899,"end":556.021,"text":"沒關係啦 就這樣啦 我問到這裡我還是問不出我要的我的問題 其實我說真的 我是這樣我沒有要求每個人要回答我要的答案但是要就我的問題去回答那我請教你一個最簡單的問題 這你一定有辦法回答地方跟中央的關係 地方是中央的吹喊嗎"},{"start":557.094,"end":583.873,"text":"當然不是 兩個是獨立的公法人對 所以中央跟地方它是一個垂直分權的關係對不對但是我們現在實務上面的運作變成是地方要苦苦哀求中央耶您知道地方現在實務運作變成這樣嗎然後中央今天他在預算的分配上面他喜歡誰就誰嘛行政院長甚至可以出來講一句話叫做有這個縣市的立委有配合我中央的政策優先發給"},{"start":585.514,"end":607.401,"text":"這個東西您學者的角度來看,您認同這句話嗎?因為他的立委知不支持我中央行政院的政策所以我的一些的預算優不優先給,給不給足我可以這樣子分配嗎?我可以這樣子嗎?我請教蕭教授補助的分配有法律規定如果依法律規定沒問題,如果"},{"start":608.041,"end":631.031,"text":"他的目的不是基於還是沒有回答我的話我還沒講完依法依法對你講依法沒有錯我也會講依法我只問你這一句話嘛這一句話行政院的這一句院長可以講這一句話這句話的法律依據在我國是哪一條法律你立法委員配合我那我就優先給你們這句話的法律依據為何請教蕭教授"},{"start":632.352,"end":638.599,"text":"如果立法院的內容是合乎法律規定沒問題如果立法院的內容不合乎法律規定那當然是不可以的"},{"start":639.571,"end":661.568,"text":"重點就是我剛跟委員報告每一個立法委員他都有他自己選區的任務如果他的要求是合乎法律規定沒問題蕭教授我的問題非常的簡單行政院長講了這一句話有無法律依據要是我今天被您問我這個問題我就會說沒有法律依據啊但是"},{"start":662.449,"end":677.865,"text":"我認同他的想法我非常支持他的想法這是一種論調第二種論調他有法律依據我就是告訴全國人民這條法律依據什麼第三種他這個東西沒有法律依據而且我不認同就這三個嘛你又再繞到別的地方去我覺得"},{"start":679.386,"end":700.285,"text":"我沒有刁難你 你可以再回去看我今天對你的任何一個資訊我沒有刁難你 但是您都沒有回答我的問題我沒有要你回答我心中喜歡的答案 我都沒有要求這樣但是您要回答我的問題啊好沒關係 那既然一直問不到問題這塊就算了啦 我沒有期待了那我在"},{"start":702.628,"end":728.438,"text":"其實我跟你說啦我今天來這邊證其實我很多我以前的同事打給我說這個蕭教授很好一定要讓他過等等我說沒有我一定是依據我們審查的結果也不會因為我今天不認同您或是我覺得你沒有答到問題而我就會否決你我不是這樣的人我一定是看實際怎麼樣來做但是我要講的是我都沒有聽到剛剛我問的題目的答案"},{"start":729.876,"end":744.914,"text":"這個答案不管肯定說否定說我都沒有聽到因為繞來繞去還是等於沒有說我在請教您在德國念書嘛您剛剛有講那我也有看過您過往的一些發言我請教您一個問題"},{"start":745.714,"end":772.982,"text":"德國的國會他有沒有調查權當然有那您之前其實有提到一個東西就是我先講一個民進黨的大前輩林卓水他曾經說過說他說第一個打造世界最弱國會的是孫中山第二個是蔣介石第三個是1993年的大法官第四個是現在的大法官那那個您之前他說我們現在台灣還繼續以五權憲法的名義在挑空國會的調查權"},{"start":775.697,"end":795.473,"text":"然後再繼續鞏固行政院立法局的體制他把立法院變成是立法局那您之前曾經倡議過說國會行使職權法您有提到支持國會完整調查權明文界定調查傳喚罰還等等的手段跟範圍跟程序然後"},{"start":796.213,"end":821.014,"text":"這就發生一個狀況就是您的這個東西都跟我之前在國會改革推法案的時候想法與精神都一致但是我們得到的是什麼就是被現在的青鳥以及民進黨的立委說我們是毀憲亂政法盲也就是您過往的理想以及德國現在的國會的調查權在我國會變成"},{"start":822.615,"end":840.771,"text":"當然你可以說他們三權我們五權嘛當然是有不同之處但是這些東西在我國推行第一步就會被人家說迴憲亂政以及法盲當然我不會說你法盲因為我也是認同您的這個這個您過往的這些想法另外就是"},{"start":842.268,"end":866.41,"text":"這一次我看到美國的國會他在調查臉書Meta公司的時候主博客到國會去作證聯邦參議員跟他說了一句話說美國人民有權了解貴公司的真相但是到我們台灣來當我們想要了解超資雞蛋疫苗採購等等的時候以及或是我們在國會改革的時候我們希望把調查權放到國會的權限裡面的時候"},{"start":867.071,"end":893.037,"text":"有一些委員就說你們是要把這些商業秘密問完之後交給中國政府這個就是我們實務上面遇到的一些狀況跟教授您報告是現在我們遇到這個狀況因為我看到你過往在論述這個德國國會以及對我國國會的一些想法的時候我發現這個想法當然跟我是完全我非常認同您的這些想法但是這些想法目前在"},{"start":893.897,"end":911.122,"text":"在我國的運作上以及在我國的執政黨的眼中其實我們都是在毀憲亂政所以現在我們連請監察委員監察院的官員到國會都沒辦法我們想要請國安會秘書長到國會也沒辦法所以"},{"start":912.657,"end":940.057,"text":"我們連想請領國家薪水的人來這裡他都不願意來所以這就是我們痛苦的地方甚至我們也是嚴守大公會解釋哪一些人不需要到立法院那我們以這些人以外的人我們請他來他也是愛來就不來也不用請假也不用說明那我們毫無任何裁罰制裁任何權利都沒有我想請問一下這樣子的國會您認同嗎"},{"start":943.024,"end":967.163,"text":"謝謝委員提問調查權當然是國會當然在台灣還包括部份監察院的權利他是一個輔助性但是我認為是不可或缺的權利尤其是當然我們現在的情況不一樣尤其是少數黨的特殊權利因為少數黨只有透過調查權才能去對抗多數黨"},{"start":968.143,"end":986.882,"text":"所以一個調查權的好壞範圍跟實施的順暢與否這個是判斷一個國家是不是一個國會為主的或是說民主法治國家一個很最重要的一個關鍵那我們大法官解釋其實在525號解釋已經就"},{"start":987.643,"end":1000.102,"text":"我們國家雖然是五權但是除了監察院之外立法院當然可以享有調查權這個沒有問題比較可惜的是說在525做完之後十幾年都沒有"},{"start":1003.306,"end":1020.234,"text":"所以去年這個國會職權行使法訂定之後呢其實對很多學習憲政的來講大家終於鬆了一口氣終於國會有真正的調查權因為光靠大法官585號解釋立法院是沒有辦法因為要立法院職權行使法"},{"start":1020.974,"end":1043.949,"text":"所以就這個國會改革法案裡面剛剛委員談到很多問題我的初衷跟我寫的書一樣不過有一點可能跟委員比較不一樣的地方就是說我針對於藐視國會要罰則這個部分我的範圍是比立法院通過的窄一點當然我不贊成用刑法我贊成用行政法"},{"start":1044.569,"end":1062.067,"text":"是第二個呢政府官員不管是院長副院長部會首長甚至呢應邀備詢的政府官員這個有罰則但是一般人民我是不贊同有罰則謝謝那接下來就是說這個罰則呢除了行政法之外其實應該還有這個"},{"start":1064.85,"end":1086.259,"text":"立法院的內部的處罰比如說我們以前常常看到就是說不准你來出席可是這個不准來出席剛好順了他的意啊反正他不想來你禁止他出席我覺得這個是不正確的那我們現在行政法法的種類很多所以我是贊成如果調查真的能夠實現而且重點我剛喬"},{"start":1087.432,"end":1115.409,"text":"一再強調 調查權是要合乎立法院的職權只要合乎立法院的職權調查他不來我覺得可以用行政法去處理謝謝教授 因為時間的關係那當然教授大部分我們是一樣那教授對於說該不該有刑法以及怎麼處罰以及範圍 這個我都認同這個我完全認同 就是說這個只是對於範圍的部分大家想法不一致這個都是OK 但是主軸我們的想法是一致的"},{"start":1116.65,"end":1133.925,"text":"我想說我最後因為時間的關係我想我在這邊提一下但是上一次國會的這個法案到最後這個都不應該有所以我們任何的一個裁法任何的一個對於官員的要求甚至我們說他來這裡不可以說謊"},{"start":1135.026,"end":1146.525,"text":"我們連這樣子要去追究他責任的權利都沒有所以今天官員來這裡預算我們省預算的事情官員現在到國會也在說謊到外面宣講也在說謊"},{"start":1147.844,"end":1171.738,"text":"然後國會我們看到的行政機關的網站拿公家的錢設置的網站上面寫的數據也在說謊但是我在國會我當個立法委員我完全沒有任何的權利去制裁我想這個是不對的像您剛剛提到的德國我也看過德國的資料德國他就是尊重少數黨所以他認為國會要有給他們一個就是國會有調查權才能夠讓少數黨繼續去"},{"start":1173.719,"end":1192.308,"text":"監督這個國家一樣我們今天在台灣遇到的狀況就是當我們拿民主國家最基本有的國會的這個調查權以及監督行政權的這些權限到台灣都變成迴憲亂政我想我這個不用多說教授您也看得懂我也不讓您在這邊說一些"},{"start":1195.526,"end":1223.235,"text":"免得你被執政黨的立委修理最後我再跟各位跟教授報告如果您有幸擔任大法官請你看一下4至791號780號他們都曾經去推翻以前大法官的解釋也就是說如果有一天你有幸當大法官請勇於對抗以前錯誤的大法官解釋好謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問也謝謝蕭教授的說明"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":51,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時11分）麻煩蕭教授。"],["主席：麻煩被提名人蕭教授。"],["蕭文生被提名人：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：蕭教授早安。我在擔任新北市法制局局長的時候，因為那時需要多瞭解一些地方自治方面的事項，有拜讀過您很多資料以及您著作的書，謝謝您帶給我非常多的知識。","我在這邊先跟蕭教授報告一下，我昨天詢問另外一位大法官被提名人的時候有提到，其實我對於大法官的想法並不是要求大法官在任何一個公共議題上面的想法要跟我一樣，所以我不會著重在譬如廢死與否或國會改革與否等等這些細項上要跟我一樣，因為我認為公共政策本來就會有各種肯定說、否定說，所以我都會予以尊重，而且跟我意思不一樣，也不是大法官適不適格的重要論點。","但是我想大法官還是需要的一個點，就是第一個，他要有一定的專業度；再來，他必須懂得大法官是做什麼，他是解釋憲法、法律的衝突以及統一解釋，不是創設法律，尤其在現行法律並沒有漏洞的情況下，其實司法是沒有造法的權限；還有一個重要的點，就是大法官有沒有勇於對抗政府的勇氣，當然，我說的對抗是告訴政府違憲的勇氣。這是我心目中大法官應該要有的樣子，因為我看到過往的大法官，譬如王澤鑑、翁岳生、吳庚等等這些大法官，在歷次重要法案的時候，如檢察官的搜索權、集會遊行法行政機關的預先審查等等，他們都展現了對抗當時執政黨的勇氣，但是我看不到現在的大法官還擁有這樣的勇氣。所以我今天有個標題在前面，就是「不要與神同行，要與人民同在」，因為大法官是全民的大法官，是保護我們的大法官，是保護我國憲政體制的大法官，不是保護執政黨的大法官，這是我心裡對於大法官的一個期待。","蕭教授，我不知道你有沒有聽過一句話，「財政是庶務之母，缺少自主、可自由運用的財政經費，地方自治團體無法享有自我負責決定之權，而僅是中央政府的下級機關」，這句話你應該很清楚吧？"],["蕭文生被提名人：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：這是您自己的書「地方自治法基礎理論與實務」，2019年版第89頁的一句話，你應該很清楚。照你書上面寫的，你應該是非常認同地方的財政自主權，是不是？是或不是？"],["蕭文生被提名人：當然，憲法如果要保障地方自治，人跟錢是一定要的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。我今天想要跟你討論的就是這個部分，因為最近發生了一個事情，你一定非常清楚，就是行政院刪除地方政府的一般性補助款，總額達到636億，內政部部長劉世芳除了大喊說：我們是臺灣國、要改路名，恐嚇大家租屋補貼的補助金不夠。然後告訴大家說：但是改路名都有錢。在這些狀況之下，這些都是涉及地方跟中央政府之間的事項，我想因為你對這塊很有研究，所以我要請教你相關的議題。在你的書裡面提到一個點，就是地方政府在履行地方法定義務、任務以及辦理最低程度的自治事項所需的經費，中央不得以缺乏財政上給付能力而置之不理，您認同嗎？這是您書裡面寫的。"],["蕭文生被提名人：這當然。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我想請教的第一個問題，這次行政院主計總處不分縣市的財政狀況，齊頭式地停發27%的一般性補助，嚴重衝擊到幾個財政狀況比較不佳的縣市，例如說宜蘭縣、苗栗縣，這些錢本來應該是用在一些社會福利制度，例如老人照顧、學校營養午餐等等，而且這些經費早在去年8月主計總處就已經核定了，各地的議會也已經三讀通過，裡面甚至還包括一些警消、交通基礎建設的經費，地方也都發包了，然後突然間中央說這個錢不可以給，你覺得這樣子地方還有所謂的財政自主權嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：我可以回答嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：可以，請說。"],["蕭文生被提名人：首先，有關於地方自治財政的問題，我想這是任何一個憲法保障地方自治的國家都應該要全力支援的。為了要讓地方有充分的財源，我們在地制法第六十三條、第六十四條、第六十五條都規定了地方有十種不同的收入，除了地方自己的收入之外，中央給地方的兩個最大財政的支助跟補助是統籌分配款還有補助款，統籌分配款基本上是法定的，也就是統籌分配款有法律的規定，然後……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，統籌分配我沒有問題。"],["蕭文生被提名人：這個沒有問題，好。"],["吳委員宗憲：就一般性補助款。"],["蕭文生被提名人：補助款基本上不是固定稅源，大法官釋字第498號解釋對補助款有充分的說明，因為補助款沒有固定的稅源，所以基本上應該是由中央政府或上級政府依照它的財政來支援。但是我們國家比較特別的一點，就是不管是在財政收支劃分法或地方制度法，我們都只有單純講補助款，委員所提示的一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款是在行政院所訂的辦法，所以我們憲法裡面並沒有分一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款。所以大法官釋字第498號講得非常清楚，就是中央對地方自治團體得視其財政狀況予以適當的補助，重點就是剛剛委員所講的，使地方自治團體能夠支應它財政的基本需求，保障所有國民都有一定程度基本的經濟生活，我覺得這個目的是最重要的。現在最大的問題就是委員所提出來的補助款裡面，特別針對一般型的補助款，因為大家都知道計畫型的補助款，這個不是義務……"],["吳委員宗憲：我們不要再談計畫型、不要再扯到統籌分配。"],["蕭文生被提名人：好，一般型的補助款到底有沒有義務持續給？站在憲法的角度來講是沒有；但是站在法律的角度就可以討論，因為行政法裡面有一個基本上的原則……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，因為我只有20分鐘的時間問你，我想你一直要扯到很遠的理論去，我想說不需要。"],["蕭文生被提名人：好，那簡單來講……"],["吳委員宗憲：簡單就是一般性補助款，沒關係，我了解了。所以對於這個齊頭式的27%一般性補助款，行政院說要刪除，您是支持，對不對？我了解您這個講法就好。"],["蕭文生被提名人：不是、不是，我還沒講完。如果一般型的補助款經過行政機關長期實務的運作，變成一種行政慣例……"],["吳委員宗憲：過往沒有刪過。"],["蕭文生被提名人：加上行政程序法第六條的規定，它就有對外的拘束力，只是說……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，如果照你這樣講，中央就不應該刪，它已經有過往的慣例，而且有對外的拘束力嘛！"],["蕭文生被提名人：過往的慣例是沒錯，但是假設，我們前提有假設……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有假設。"],["蕭文生被提名人：好，它的財政如果沒有減少，應該給。"],["吳委員宗憲：蕭教授，我不是來這裡跟你辯論喔！蕭教授，我是來請教你對於公共議題的想法，您如果要假設，要扯到統籌分配款、扯到計畫性補助款，那個都不在我的問題範圍內。"],["蕭文生被提名人：假設中央的財政沒有減少，應該給，這是我的想法，因為立法院自己還訂了一個規定說今年不能比去年少。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，你要繞來繞去。我跟你說，我剛剛一開始就講了，我認為的大法官要有勇氣對抗政府，我沒有說你一定要認同我們的想法或是認同中央的想法，但是我們要有勇氣說「我的想法是什麼」。唉，沒關係啦，就這樣，問到這裡我還是問不出我的問題。其實說真的我是這樣，我沒有要求每個人要回答我要的答案，但是要就我的問題去回答。"],["蕭文生被提名人：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我請教你一個最簡單的問題，你一定有辦法回答。"],["蕭文生被提名人：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：地方跟中央的關係，地方是中央的「細漢」嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：當然不是，兩個是獨立的公法人。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以中央跟地方是一個垂直分權的關係，對不對？"],["蕭文生被提名人：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我們現在實務上的運作變成是地方要苦苦哀求中央，您知道地方現在實務運作變成這樣嗎？然後中央在預算的分配上面，他喜歡誰就誰嘛，行政院院長甚至可以出來講一句話叫做這個縣市的立委有配合我中央的政策，優先發給。以您學者的角度來看，您認同這句話嗎？因為立委支不支持中央行政院的政策，所以一些預算優不優先給、給不給足，可以這樣子分配嗎？可以這樣子嗎？我請教蕭教授。"],["蕭文生被提名人：補助的分配有法律規定，如果依法律規定沒問題，如果他的目的不是基於……"],["吳委員宗憲：還是沒有回答我的話嘛。"],["蕭文生被提名人：我還沒講完。"],["吳委員宗憲：依法，對，你講依法沒有錯，我也會講依法，我只問你這一句話嘛，行政院的這一句，院長可以講這句話，這句話的法律依據在我國是哪一條法律？你立法委員配合我，我就優先給你們，這句話的法律依據為何？請教蕭教授。"],["蕭文生被提名人：如果立法委員的內容是合乎法律規定，沒問題，如果立法委員內容不合乎法律規定，當然是不可以的。重點就是我剛剛跟委員報告，每一個立法委員都有他自己選區的任務，如果他的要求是合乎法律規定，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：蕭教授、蕭教授，我的問題非常簡單，行政院院長講了這一句話有無法律依據？要是我今天被您問我這個問題，我就會說沒有法律依據啊！但是我認同他的想法，我非常支持他的想法，這是一種論調；第二種論調，他有法律依據，我就是告訴全國人民這條法律依據是什麼；第三種，他這個東西沒有法律依據，而且我不認同。就這三個嘛，你又再繞到別的地方去。","我覺得我沒有刁難你，你可以再回去看我今天對你的任何一個質詢，我沒有刁難您，但是您都沒有回答我的問題，我沒有要你回答我心中喜歡的答案，我都沒有要求這樣，但是您要回答我的問題啊！沒關係，既然一直問不到問題，這塊就算了啦，唉，我沒有期待了。","其實我跟你說，我今天來這邊之前，很多我以前的同事打給我說蕭教授很好，一定要讓他過等等，我說沒有，我一定是依據我們審查的結果，也不會因為我今天不認同您，或是我覺得您沒有答到我的問題，而我就會否決您，我不是這樣的人，我一定是看實際怎麼樣來做，但是我要講的是，我都沒有聽到剛剛我問題的答案，這個答案不管肯定說、否定說我都沒有聽到，你繞來繞去還是等於沒有說。","我再請教，您剛剛有講您在德國念書？"],["蕭文生被提名人：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我也有看過您過往的一些發言，我請教您一個問題，德國的國會有沒有調查權？"],["蕭文生被提名人：當然有。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，您之前其實有提到一個東西，我先講民進黨的大前輩林濁水曾經說過，第一個打造世界最弱國會的是孫中山，第二個是蔣介石，第三個是1993年的大法官，第四個是現在的大法官，他說現在臺灣還繼續以五權憲法的名義在掏空國會的調查權，然後繼續鞏固行政院立法局的體制，他把立法院變成是立法局。","您之前曾經倡議過國會行使職權法，您有提到支持國會完整調查權，明文界定調查、傳喚、罰鍰等等手段、範圍跟程序，然後這就發生一個狀況，就是您的這個東西都跟我之前在國會改革推法案的時候，想法以及精神都一致，但是我們得到的是什麼？就是被現在的青鳥以及民進黨的立委說我們是毀憲亂政、法盲，也就是您過往的理想及德國現在國會的調查權，在我國會變成毀憲亂政。當然你可以說他們三權，我們五權，是有不同之處，但是這些東西在我國推行，第一步就會被人家說毀憲亂政以及法盲。當然我不會說你法盲，因為我也是認同您過往的這些想法。","另外，這一次我看到美國的國會在調查臉書Meta公司的時候，祖克柏到國會去作證，聯邦參議員跟他說了一句話說：美國人民有權了解貴公司的真相。但是到我們臺灣來，當我們想要了解超思雞蛋、疫苗採購等等的時候，或是我們在國會改革的時候，我們希望把調查權放到國會的權限裡面的時候，有一些委員就說：你們是要把這些商業秘密問完之後交給中國政府。這個就是我們實務上面遇到的一些狀況，跟教授報告，這是我們現在遇到的狀況，因為我看到你過往在論述德國國會，以及對我國國會的一些想法的時候，我非常認同您的這些想法，但是這些想法目前在我國的運作上，以及在我國執政黨的眼中，其實我們都是在毀憲亂政。所以現在我們連請監察委員、監察院的官員到國會都沒辦法，我們想要請國安會秘書長到國會也沒辦法，我們連想請領國家薪水的人來這裡，他都不願意來，所以這就是我們痛苦的地方。甚至我們也是嚴守大法官會議解釋，哪一些人不需要到立法院，我們以這些人以外的人請他來，他也是不愛來就不來，也不用請假、也不用說明，我們毫無任何裁罰、制裁，任何權力都沒有。我想請問一下，這樣子的國會，您認同嗎？請說，謝謝。"],["蕭文生被提名人：謝謝委員的提問。國會當然有調查權，在臺灣還包括部分監察院的權力，它是一個輔助性，但是我認為是不可或缺的權力。當然我們現在的情況不一樣，尤其是少數黨的特殊權力，因為少數黨只有透過調查權才能去對抗多數黨，所以調查權的好壞、範圍跟實施的順暢與否，是判斷一個國家是不是以國會為主或是民主法治國家一個很最重要的關鍵。","我們大法官解釋其實在第525號解釋，已經就我們國家雖然是五權，但是除了監察院之外，立法院當然可以享有調查權，這個沒有問題。比較可惜的是說，在第525號做完之後……"],["吳委員宗憲：585。"],["蕭文生被提名人：585，對不起。第585號做完之後十幾年都沒有改變，所以去年國會職權行使法修訂之後，其實對很多學習憲政的人來講，大家終於鬆了一口氣，終於國會有真正的調查權，因為光靠大法官第585號解釋，立法院是沒有辦法的，因為要修立法院職權行使法，所以就國會改革法案裡面，剛剛委員談到很多問題，我的初衷跟我寫的書一樣，不過有一點可能跟委員比較不一樣的地方，就是我針對於藐視國會要罰責這個部分，我的範圍是比立法院通過的窄一點。當然，我不贊成用刑罰，我贊成用行政罰。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["蕭文生被提名人：第二個，對政府官員，不管是院長、副院長、部會首長，甚至應邀備詢的政府官員，這個有罰責，但是對一般人民，我是不贊同有罰責。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。"],["蕭文生被提名人：接下來就是說，這個罰責除了行政罰之外，其實應該還有立法院內部的處罰，比如說我們以前常看到，就是不准他來出席，可是這個不准來出席剛好順了他的意，反正他不想來，你禁止他出席，我覺得這個是不正確的。我們現在行政罰法的種類很多，所以我是贊成如果調查真的能夠實現，而且重點，我剛一再強調，調查權是要合乎立法院的職權，只要合乎立法院的職權，調查他不來，我覺得可以用行政罰去處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝教授，因為時間的關係。教授，我們大部分是一樣，那教授對於該不該有刑罰，以及怎麼處罰、範圍，這個我都完全認同，這只是對於範圍的部分大家想法不一致，這都OK，但是主軸我們的想法是一致的。","最後，因為時間的關係，我想在這邊提一下，但是，上一次國會的這個法案，到最後這個都不應該有，所以我們任何的一個裁罰、任何對於官員的要求，甚至我們說他來這裡不可以說謊，我們連這樣子要去追究他責任的權力都沒有。所以今天官員來這裡，我們審預算，官員現在到國會也在說謊，到外面宣講也在說謊，然後，我們看到行政機關的網站、拿公家的錢設置的網站，上面寫的數據也在說謊，但是我在國會，我當個立法委員，我完全沒有任何的權力去制裁，我想這個是不對的。像您剛剛提到的德國，我也看過德國的資料，德國就是尊重少數黨，所以他認為國會要有調查權，才能夠讓少數黨繼續去監督這個國家。一樣，我們今天在臺灣遇到的狀況，就是當我們拿民主國家最基本的國會調查權，以及監督行政權的這些權限，到臺灣都變成毀憲亂政。我不用多說，教授，您也看得懂，我也不讓您在這邊說一些……免得你被執政黨的立委修理。","最後，我再跟教授報告，如果你有幸擔任大法官，請你看一下釋字第791號、第784號，他們都曾經去推翻以前大法官的解釋。也就是說，如果有一天你有幸當大法官，請勇於對抗以前錯誤的大法官解釋，以及現在的大法官判決，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問，也謝謝蕭教授的說明。","接下來請第2位詢問委員麥玉珍委員詢問，賴瑞隆委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","麥玉珍","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","賴惠員","陳菁徽","何欣純","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳素月","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","徐欣瑩","張雅琳","蘇清泉","林憶君","林楚茵","陳永康","王美惠"],"page_start":365,"meetingDate":["2025-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00006","1146501_00007","1146501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00004"}}}