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1221.601, \"end\": 1221.621, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,052 --> 00:00:03,515\n蕭教授你好\n\n2\n00:00:04,667 --> 00:00:32,656\n我自我介紹一下我的背景是醫師所以今天我會跟您討論一些醫師管理法律的問題我們最近其實有一些社會矚目案件我不知道你有沒有注意到但是有三位台大婦產科醫師還有一位骨科醫師涉入了性侵或者是性騷等等的事件我會先從婦產科開始談起畢竟這個族群是最容易接觸到女性病患的族群\n\n3\n00:00:33,576 --> 00:00:57,597\n那我要背景介紹一下就是說台大婦產科教授主治醫師還有住院醫師發生了三起性侵或是性騷的案件那有一位黃姓的住院醫師對女性病患猥褻性侵經一審的判處有罪刑期三年目前仍可上訴不過在案發之後呢黃醫師完成了住院醫師訓練並且還獲得專科醫師執照\n\n4\n00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:17,499\n更直接在台大有更整的行為另外一位陳教授他也是我們婦產科醫學會的前任理事長他傳出對多名學生研究生性騷擾台大醫院主動的啟動調查經性評會確認屬實最終解聘該名醫師\n\n5\n00:01:21,744 --> 00:01:48,120\n那前兩週新聞比較大的是一位正性的醫師涉嫌下藥還有性侵多名女性2025年出遭起訴後棄保潛逃現在成為了通緝犯這些醫師的共通點在於就算是已經進入司法程序或者是有正式的行政調查報告他們卻持續執行臨床的業務並且沒有被送懲戒\n\n6\n00:01:49,601 --> 00:02:02,672\n為什麼明明醫師法裡面有懲戒的制度可是面臨這些狼藝的問題始終沒有辦法給予合理的處罰問題就在於現在的條文不夠明確這邊我先列出醫師法第25條的規定\n\n7\n00:02:04,554 --> 00:02:32,055\n他有兩個機關可以一副懲戒一個是醫師公會一個是主管機關那下列業務上有重大重複發生過失利用業務機會之犯罪行為經判刑確立屬醫療必要的過度用藥或治療行為四執行業務違背了醫學倫理這期款只要是符合其中一項都可以移送可是問題在於過去大家很保守\n\n8\n00:02:32,916 --> 00:02:53,963\n只有在第二款的規定才敢去送移送那還有這兩個機關會互相推卸責任所以一個案件從發生起訴到判刑甚至有的是過了一審二審好幾年最終都不知道看了多少病人了很多女性的病患是處於風險之中的這是一個超大的制度性問題\n\n9\n00:02:55,163 --> 00:03:18,129\n那所以未還委員會針對這個從1月去年12月開始就不斷的質詢也有辦了專報等等的大家會對於這樣事件極度的震驚啊就連林靜儀的次長在回應我們的說法都說早就可以用違反醫療倫理這一款去移送可是還是沒有人敢這樣做所以我在委員會有提出一個臨時提案是要求呢\n\n10\n00:03:19,209 --> 00:03:47,800\n這個衛福部可以盡速就違反醫學倫理的內容內涵來做出函釋未來只要是性騷或是性侵這樣子的發生行政調查確立根本就不需要等刑事判決就屬於違反醫療倫理並且希望主管機關也就是衛福部趕快把這個函釋做出來公告上網讓全部人都可以參考但因為您是大法官提名人現在這些被行政調查以後\n\n11\n00:03:48,720 --> 00:04:17,512\n他們是因為矚目案件所以經過立法委員的質詢才被移送懲戒的狼藝還有很多是在台灣各個角落可能有其他的被害人加害人還躲在陰影中未來這些狼藝有可能一路會上訴到申請釋憲所以您的見解對我們來說格外的重要他們會來跟您吵他們必須是符合第二款才可以被送懲戒這邊要請問您的見解如何\n\n12\n00:04:19,324 --> 00:04:40,949\n謝謝委員的提問如果我印象記得沒錯的話有關於醫師的懲戒其實在醫師法裡面有兩個途徑一個是委員所提出來的25條另外好像我如果記得沒錯的話另外在30幾條還有一個是主管機關本來就是依職權就可以停止他醫師的業務的執行\n\n13\n00:04:42,608 --> 00:04:59,034\n那這個案子呢如果委員有興趣可以去參考當時候在台中因為我在台中書院會也處理過一個那個中醫師摻雜很多奇怪的藥讓一個那個甚至好像是前副議長的兒子死亡的那個案子那個案子的爭執就是說\n\n14\n00:05:00,775 --> 00:05:13,353\n醫事公會沒有移送但是我們台中市衛生局主管機關運用抱歉我現在忘了不是25條是後面的條文30幾條條文主管機關他本來就可以依職權去停職\n\n15\n00:05:15,213 --> 00:05:43,262\n他没有办法去让他的医师因为惩戒的手段很多他没有办法让他丧失医师的资格证书但是他可以暂时让他业务他可以停止他执行比如说一年三年所以假设是现在这个问题的话我觉得不一定因为你要医师惩戒的话要送到那个医师惩戒委员会那医师惩戒委员会又耗时耗力啊那我觉得这个方式不一定是正确的反而是应该在\n\n16\n00:05:45,104 --> 00:05:56,191\n醫療主管機關自己本身可以依職權去做懲處的時候其實就可以了因為在這裡我想我不曉得委員最後的想法是說要讓他喪失職業資格廢止醫師證書還是暫時讓他這個是懲戒委員會的職責\n\n17\n00:06:03,036 --> 00:06:29,016\n是不是讓他只要暫時停止業務的執行因為主管機關能做的跟醫師懲戒委員會能做的不太一樣我剛講的廢止這個證書然後廢止醫師資格這個主管機關不能做這個一定要懲戒委員會然後最後要法院但是如果只是要讓他暫時停止業務的執行因為這樣就可以保護後續的患者\n\n18\n00:06:29,696 --> 00:06:55,690\n那我如果記得沒錯的話主管機關就可以做我會再去調查但衛福部至今還沒有提出方法要如何讓他們暫時停職那應該是縣市主管機關現在因為有一些還在護航的人會覺得說主要是因為無罪推定的原則所以我們不應該先行移送可是這樣反而傷害了很多受害者的身心靈教授是公法專家\n\n19\n00:06:56,590 --> 00:07:13,671\n你應該會知道說無罪推定是刑事訴訟的基本原則但是他不絕對排除行政機關基於職業監理進行懲戒因此依據醫學倫理規範病患申訴調查報告或是第三方鑑定若能確定行為屬實\n\n20\n00:07:15,032 --> 00:07:29,093\n即使未定罪也可以啟動懲戒程序不違憲這是現在很多衛航委員會林靜儀次長還有被害人被害人家屬等等的共識我只是想確認大法官提名人是不是也這樣子的認為\n\n21\n00:07:30,819 --> 00:07:53,563\n有關於剛剛委員所講的這個無罪推定當然基本上那個是刑法的基本原則那同樣的行政法也是不過他有另外規定我舉一個例子給委員做參考在我們地方制度法裡面對於這個貪污圖利的縣市首長一審有罪就可以停止\n\n22\n00:07:54,212 --> 00:08:10,812\n不用等到他三審確定他主要的理由就是說縣市長他是四年的任期你等確定判決他都已經離職了卸職了沒有處罰的必要所以他有他的正當理由在他還沒有確定判決之前就可以停他的職務那醫師的\n\n23\n00:08:13,695 --> 00:08:40,728\n方式我想應該看他有什麼樣的正當理由比如說保護病患而且他的罪行重大保護病患以至於有必要是不是調查就可以或者要至少等一審我想這個是立法委員的職權可以去斟酌但是如果是一般的醫師的話另外可以參考的就是教師法\n\n24\n00:08:41,388 --> 00:08:57,095\n就不是任教師這個等一下我們會提到不過我謝謝蕭教授未來如果有機會的話您可以站在保護這些受害者的公平正義的這方面因為未來一定會遇到這樣子的事件的機會在下一個問題\n\n25\n00:08:59,934 --> 00:09:24,363\n其實也是有關醫療的公法議題這個問題就是到底要不要把狼醫的資訊公佈在一個平台或是網站上有沒有涉及他們的個人隱私權因為胃黃委員會從今年的1月部長他表示說可以評估這樣子做到7月行政效率非常的差最大的問題就是卡在一個地方我播一段影片給您看\n\n26\n00:09:28,157 --> 00:09:36,360\n合格醫師查詢系統是一個沒有辦法查詢的系統主席很不好意思我只是說因為這一路的規劃都有參與所以我跟您報告說他初始的本醫師這樣設計對您剛講的這個部分我們做一下確認在各自法授權的範圍內可不可完全的法務部參事來\n\n27\n00:09:48,444 --> 00:10:01,860\n各支法哪一條阻卻了醫療法授予的醫師到底有沒有執照要被查詢可被查詢各支法哪一條阻卻了我們要要問衛福部這個醫生到底有醫生的跡象是不是合格的醫生沒有各支法會阻卻這一種行為嗎\n\n28\n00:10:06,065 --> 00:10:26,725\n你不敢說,以前是法務部,現在我想問國發會,國發會有人來嗎?現在是怎樣?這麼簡單的問題,整個政府沒辦的人,我就停?這麼簡單的問題,這麼做到保釣處長、副書長沒辦的人,我就回答?你現在是在爭笑喔?八位我想那個,前面以前是這樣子啦齁,那我想未來我們一定來齁,把他處理好喔這句話我已經聽過齁,很久很久很久了會啦,我已經認真做案什麼認真做案,你不要再這樣了,喔\n\n29\n00:10:27,425 --> 00:10:48,021\n主席,我不曉得怎麼諮詢了,我不能用火冒三丈這四個字來形容我此時的狀況我們拍個專報啦什麼專報,大家都親在公共,什麼都不知道,還說白菜,又搞不清楚我告訴你,我們立法院大家都聽過,都聽得很清楚,只有你搞不清楚這樣你就保證,保證我來做,保證叫我們的議事人員來做沒有搞不清楚\n\n30\n00:10:48,921 --> 00:11:02,773\n我們很清楚好,那你告訴我你告訴我你的醫事查詢系統可以查到每一個醫生都是不是合法有職照的嗎?不是大聲大聲就好你那個阿孔克力你搞不清楚你的系統根本就是有問題你聽不清楚\n\n31\n00:11:04,635 --> 00:11:15,142\n現在是怎樣自己搞不清楚你說法人聽不清楚我們很清楚啊哪裡很清楚以前就因為公司法的問題如果大家在乎我們當然來檢討這樣可以嗎對啊我就是問你啊我就是問你檢討什麼侮辱什麼你現在是在做什麼你現在是在\n\n32\n00:11:20,605 --> 00:11:26,948\n大法官提名您可以評論一下他們卡關卡在什麼地方嗎醫師的情形我不是很清楚不過就學校來講學校本來在聘任老師的時候就有一個\n\n33\n00:11:49,826 --> 00:12:12,083\n藍絲的查詢系統這教育部有提供只是說這個藍絲的查詢系統是人事室他要去負責查詢內部使用不是一般人民所以假設說要開放的話我覺得至少醫院可以有這個類似我們學校裡面人事室這種查詢系統應該是沒有什麼特別的問題\n\n34\n00:12:12,802 --> 00:12:33,834\n至於一般人民那可能就是另外的考慮我現在知道的就是其實是有狼屍的查詢系統這件事情在我們衛黃委員會已經從去年12月炒到現在無數的委員質詢都卡在這個各自法各自法的問題那我們來看一下左邊是醫師查詢系統右邊是律師\n\n35\n00:12:34,975 --> 00:12:55,861\n那這個是我本人的登錄啦你可以看到很簡單的資料大概性別、科別、職業地點等等的那您是法界人士您一定也知道像是律師法務部會有職業律師查詢平台而且有兩個平台喔第一個平台是查你有沒有合法的執照第二個平台是查你是否有被懲戒過還有這個懲戒的內容是什麼\n\n36\n00:12:57,842 --> 00:13:26,924\n那律師的懲戒我們要注意不一定是涉及刑責判刑確定才會被懲戒對吧違反律師倫理就有可能被懲戒而且會把這個違反律師倫理詳細的內容列在上面因為律師法有規定律師法第46條是2020年後行政修正的懲戒法院應該將懲戒的決議送達受懲戒人律師公會還有主管機關並且公告之\n\n37\n00:13:28,766 --> 00:13:56,588\n醫師更複雜因為醫師對於在職業的過程中患者的身體的接觸是比其他職業多的吧這個您承認吧所以你會不會覺得相對於這個律師查詢系統我們的醫師查詢系統稍顯不足呢是稍顯不足還是大大不足人民應該有權選擇自己所希望的醫師跟律師嘛政府應該有必要提供充分的資訊讓人民去做選擇\n\n38\n00:13:59,093 --> 00:14:22,863\n如果就我的接觸範圍來講因為老師對一個人的影響也很大所以我想不管是家長也好同學也好基本上都不希望有老師在學校所以老師有他自己的查詢系統可是我們的查詢系統可能不像律師那麼樣的公開跟周延但是至少有啦\n\n39\n00:14:23,663 --> 00:14:44,164\n那律師因為他涉及到人民的訴訟權的保障還有他司法權益而且他的這個律師的職業也影響到很重大的公共利益我覺得這樣公開是正確的那至於醫師因為我比較少去看醫師他也涉及到人民的身體自主身體安全涉及到這個\n\n40\n00:14:46,704 --> 00:15:07,880\n都是比較後半段但是就現在比較通盛行的醫療人權來講我有自主權嘛我希望選擇一個我認為適當的醫生嘛那我當然也除了這個剛剛委員所提供的這些資料之外我當然除了去打聽他是不是開刀我會開刀之外我當然也希望\n\n41\n00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:35,771\n如果他有什麼樣不適宜的讓我知道我覺得這是作為一個現代的人享受醫療人權一個基本的一個立場那這邊就是問到憲法保障隱私權因為釋字603號有指出在重大公共利益或是保障他人權益情況下得在法律明文授予合理限制所以聽起來大法官提名人您認為狼醫的懲戒資訊涉及重大公共利益\n\n42\n00:15:36,451 --> 00:15:54,305\n比如說病患的安全醫療的信賴災犯的風險防治即使屬於個人隱私也可以在比例原則下受到限制與公開嗎剛剛您的論點是這樣是嗎同意嗎對但是公開的方式公開的範圍這個當然立法者可以去做限制跟檢討好\n\n43\n00:15:55,973 --> 00:16:25,243\n因為這些狼藝的護航者他們可能會不同意未來你也是會遇到他們來打憲法訴訟說他們不願意被公開那我舉這一兩年的例子是上一張這一兩年的例子在健保資料案中憲法法庭是採取中度審查因為健保資料涉及個人病史屬於高度敏感的資訊如果連健保資料這麼私密的資訊憲法法庭都只是採中度審查那麼\n\n44\n00:16:26,303 --> 00:16:49,432\n醫師或是教師是攸關公共安全病患還有後備醫師學生們的身體健康信賴保障然後因違反職業倫理數級形式等等被懲戒揭露的對象並非社會任意公眾而是可能被服務的對象但是從大法官提名人的口中其實可能被服務的對象幾乎是全民了啦\n\n45\n00:16:50,012 --> 00:17:08,040\n是不是您未來如果遇到這樣子的憲法訴訟您會認為應該可以採取較寬鬆的審查標準呢我們一般這個是每個國家的審查方式都不一樣那以美國方式來講常常會用低度中度跟高度審查\n\n46\n00:17:09,281 --> 00:17:29,716\n那我我留學德國我們德國沒有沒有這一套那基本上就是依照憲法23條的規定去去審查他的一個合憲性與否那當然這裡面最重要的就是利益的權衡那剛委員講的就是說站在國民健康以國民健康這個做一個標準化來講的話這應該是我們\n\n47\n00:17:32,219 --> 00:17:40,892\n追求很高的公共利益隱私權當然是個人非常重要的利益那兩個人在權衡之間當然我們不能說權有跟權無啦\n\n48\n00:17:41,862 --> 00:18:05,504\n我會比較贊成要公開但是公開的方法限制跟時間這個可以討論謝謝好那這邊我們就是要跟你討論這個這是您剛一再提到的兒少平台是公開的教育部有亡羊補牢雖然難以徹底的解決任用狼獅的疑慮可是至少跨出了一大步現在醫師法沒有明文強制公告懲戒的規定但是\n\n49\n00:18:07,025 --> 00:18:33,647\n實務上各縣市的衛生局還有醫師公會是會公告懲戒的資料的那既然這些這個主管機關都已經直接公告了您認為可不可以直接建設平台了因為這個是衛福部部長從1月到現在遇到的問題就是說你的意思就是說建一個平台然後直接對就是你一直在講的啊跟教師類似的平台啊\n\n50\n00:18:34,918 --> 00:18:53,500\n指引到其他的工會去看嗎還是怎麼樣不是他現在要建立狼藝平台就類似像律師一樣他如果有接受到懲戒他是可以被查出來的如果懲戒是一個公開資料是政府資訊公開資料那當然沒問題啊他是現在主管機關的公開資料\n\n51\n00:18:54,761 --> 00:19:13,988\n比如說我的縣市衛生局或者是醫師公會我有懲戒委員會開完了有結果了他們是會把他公告出來的而且我也在我當過醫師懲戒委員會的委員我記得他們如果那個地方夠大的話因為公報大部分都只有這個\n\n52\n00:19:16,443 --> 00:19:33,089\n這個中央部會才有但是大的直轄市政府他們也有自己的公報那公報上面就會有那個懲戒的那個但是他沒有很仔細啊他可能沒有很多事實他只是告訴你說某某醫生因為為了什麼被懲戒比如說去上課幾天\n\n53\n00:19:34,484 --> 00:20:02,804\n然後他停業幾天這個有但是事實跟理由可能所以這邊很關鍵的許多委員他們希望因為他們可能有獲得選民的陳情等等他們希望可以建置一個完整的平台查詢平台就跟教師律師一樣就想請問大法官提名人這一點您是否認同因為這個教師基本上是由教育部來全權主管不管是大學或中小學\n\n54\n00:20:03,604 --> 00:20:21,621\n那醫師的部分我比較不清楚,因為中央我不清楚好,謝謝陳經理委員詢問,也謝謝被提名的蕭教授的說明,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3052\t3515\t蕭教授你好\n4667\t32656\t我自我介紹一下我的背景是醫師所以今天我會跟您討論一些醫師管理法律的問題我們最近其實有一些社會矚目案件我不知道你有沒有注意到但是有三位台大婦產科醫師還有一位骨科醫師涉入了性侵或者是性騷等等的事件我會先從婦產科開始談起畢竟這個族群是最容易接觸到女性病患的族群\n33576\t57597\t那我要背景介紹一下就是說台大婦產科教授主治醫師還有住院醫師發生了三起性侵或是性騷的案件那有一位黃姓的住院醫師對女性病患猥褻性侵經一審的判處有罪刑期三年目前仍可上訴不過在案發之後呢黃醫師完成了住院醫師訓練並且還獲得專科醫師執照\n60900\t77499\t更直接在台大有更整的行為另外一位陳教授他也是我們婦產科醫學會的前任理事長他傳出對多名學生研究生性騷擾台大醫院主動的啟動調查經性評會確認屬實最終解聘該名醫師\n81744\t108120\t那前兩週新聞比較大的是一位正性的醫師涉嫌下藥還有性侵多名女性2025年出遭起訴後棄保潛逃現在成為了通緝犯這些醫師的共通點在於就算是已經進入司法程序或者是有正式的行政調查報告他們卻持續執行臨床的業務並且沒有被送懲戒\n109601\t122672\t為什麼明明醫師法裡面有懲戒的制度可是面臨這些狼藝的問題始終沒有辦法給予合理的處罰問題就在於現在的條文不夠明確這邊我先列出醫師法第25條的規定\n124554\t152055\t他有兩個機關可以一副懲戒一個是醫師公會一個是主管機關那下列業務上有重大重複發生過失利用業務機會之犯罪行為經判刑確立屬醫療必要的過度用藥或治療行為四執行業務違背了醫學倫理這期款只要是符合其中一項都可以移送可是問題在於過去大家很保守\n152916\t173963\t只有在第二款的規定才敢去送移送那還有這兩個機關會互相推卸責任所以一個案件從發生起訴到判刑甚至有的是過了一審二審好幾年最終都不知道看了多少病人了很多女性的病患是處於風險之中的這是一個超大的制度性問題\n175163\t198129\t那所以未還委員會針對這個從1月去年12月開始就不斷的質詢也有辦了專報等等的大家會對於這樣事件極度的震驚啊就連林靜儀的次長在回應我們的說法都說早就可以用違反醫療倫理這一款去移送可是還是沒有人敢這樣做所以我在委員會有提出一個臨時提案是要求呢\n199209\t227800\t這個衛福部可以盡速就違反醫學倫理的內容內涵來做出函釋未來只要是性騷或是性侵這樣子的發生行政調查確立根本就不需要等刑事判決就屬於違反醫療倫理並且希望主管機關也就是衛福部趕快把這個函釋做出來公告上網讓全部人都可以參考但因為您是大法官提名人現在這些被行政調查以後\n228720\t257512\t他們是因為矚目案件所以經過立法委員的質詢才被移送懲戒的狼藝還有很多是在台灣各個角落可能有其他的被害人加害人還躲在陰影中未來這些狼藝有可能一路會上訴到申請釋憲所以您的見解對我們來說格外的重要他們會來跟您吵他們必須是符合第二款才可以被送懲戒這邊要請問您的見解如何\n259324\t280949\t謝謝委員的提問如果我印象記得沒錯的話有關於醫師的懲戒其實在醫師法裡面有兩個途徑一個是委員所提出來的25條另外好像我如果記得沒錯的話另外在30幾條還有一個是主管機關本來就是依職權就可以停止他醫師的業務的執行\n282608\t299034\t那這個案子呢如果委員有興趣可以去參考當時候在台中因為我在台中書院會也處理過一個那個中醫師摻雜很多奇怪的藥讓一個那個甚至好像是前副議長的兒子死亡的那個案子那個案子的爭執就是說\n300775\t313353\t醫事公會沒有移送但是我們台中市衛生局主管機關運用抱歉我現在忘了不是25條是後面的條文30幾條條文主管機關他本來就可以依職權去停職\n315213\t343262\t他没有办法去让他的医师因为惩戒的手段很多他没有办法让他丧失医师的资格证书但是他可以暂时让他业务他可以停止他执行比如说一年三年所以假设是现在这个问题的话我觉得不一定因为你要医师惩戒的话要送到那个医师惩戒委员会那医师惩戒委员会又耗时耗力啊那我觉得这个方式不一定是正确的反而是应该在\n345104\t356191\t醫療主管機關自己本身可以依職權去做懲處的時候其實就可以了因為在這裡我想我不曉得委員最後的想法是說要讓他喪失職業資格廢止醫師證書還是暫時讓他這個是懲戒委員會的職責\n363036\t389016\t是不是讓他只要暫時停止業務的執行因為主管機關能做的跟醫師懲戒委員會能做的不太一樣我剛講的廢止這個證書然後廢止醫師資格這個主管機關不能做這個一定要懲戒委員會然後最後要法院但是如果只是要讓他暫時停止業務的執行因為這樣就可以保護後續的患者\n389696\t415690\t那我如果記得沒錯的話主管機關就可以做我會再去調查但衛福部至今還沒有提出方法要如何讓他們暫時停職那應該是縣市主管機關現在因為有一些還在護航的人會覺得說主要是因為無罪推定的原則所以我們不應該先行移送可是這樣反而傷害了很多受害者的身心靈教授是公法專家\n416590\t433671\t你應該會知道說無罪推定是刑事訴訟的基本原則但是他不絕對排除行政機關基於職業監理進行懲戒因此依據醫學倫理規範病患申訴調查報告或是第三方鑑定若能確定行為屬實\n435032\t449093\t即使未定罪也可以啟動懲戒程序不違憲這是現在很多衛航委員會林靜儀次長還有被害人被害人家屬等等的共識我只是想確認大法官提名人是不是也這樣子的認為\n450819\t473563\t有關於剛剛委員所講的這個無罪推定當然基本上那個是刑法的基本原則那同樣的行政法也是不過他有另外規定我舉一個例子給委員做參考在我們地方制度法裡面對於這個貪污圖利的縣市首長一審有罪就可以停止\n474212\t490812\t不用等到他三審確定他主要的理由就是說縣市長他是四年的任期你等確定判決他都已經離職了 卸職了沒有處罰的必要所以他有他的正當理由在他還沒有確定判決之前就可以停他的職務那醫師的\n493695\t520728\t方式我想應該看他有什麼樣的正當理由比如說保護病患而且他的罪行重大保護病患以至於有必要是不是調查就可以或者要至少等一審我想這個是立法委員的職權可以去斟酌但是如果是一般的醫師的話另外可以參考的就是教師法\n521388\t537095\t就不是任教師這個等一下我們會提到不過我謝謝蕭教授未來如果有機會的話您可以站在保護這些受害者的公平正義的這方面因為未來一定會遇到這樣子的事件的機會在下一個問題\n539934\t564363\t其實也是有關醫療的公法議題這個問題就是到底要不要把狼醫的資訊公佈在一個平台或是網站上有沒有涉及他們的個人隱私權因為胃黃委員會從今年的1月部長他表示說可以評估這樣子做到7月行政效率非常的差最大的問題就是卡在一個地方我播一段影片給您看\n568157\t576360\t合格醫師查詢系統是一個沒有辦法查詢的系統主席很不好意思我只是說因為這一路的規劃都有參與所以我跟您報告說他初始的本醫師這樣設計對您剛講的這個部分我們做一下確認在各自法授權的範圍內可不可完全的法務部參事來\n588444\t601860\t各支法哪一條阻卻了醫療法授予的醫師到底有沒有執照要被查詢可被查詢各支法哪一條阻卻了我們要要問衛福部這個醫生到底有醫生的跡象是不是合格的醫生沒有各支法會阻卻這一種行為嗎\n606065\t626725\t你不敢說,以前是法務部,現在我想問國發會,國發會有人來嗎?現在是怎樣?這麼簡單的問題,整個政府沒辦的人,我就停?這麼簡單的問題,這麼做到保釣處長、副書長沒辦的人,我就回答?你現在是在爭笑喔?八位我想那個,前面以前是這樣子啦齁,那我想未來我們一定來齁,把他處理好喔這句話我已經聽過齁,很久很久很久了會啦,我已經認真做案什麼認真做案,你不要再這樣了,喔\n627425\t648021\t主席,我不曉得怎麼諮詢了,我不能用火冒三丈這四個字來形容我此時的狀況我們拍個專報啦什麼專報,大家都親在公共,什麼都不知道,還說白菜,又搞不清楚我告訴你,我們立法院大家都聽過,都聽得很清楚,只有你搞不清楚這樣你就保證,保證我來做,保證叫我們的議事人員來做沒有搞不清楚\n648921\t662773\t我們很清楚好,那你告訴我你告訴我你的醫事查詢系統可以查到每一個醫生都是不是合法有職照的嗎?不是大聲大聲就好你那個阿孔克力你搞不清楚你的系統根本就是有問題你聽不清楚\n664635\t675142\t現在是怎樣 自己搞不清楚 你說法人聽不清楚我們很清楚啊 哪裡很清楚以前就因為公司法的問題 如果大家在乎我們當然來檢討這樣可以嗎對啊 我就是問你啊 我就是問你檢討什麼 侮辱什麼你現在是在做什麼 你現在是在\n680605\t686948\t大法官提名 您可以評論一下他們卡關卡在什麼地方嗎醫師的情形我不是很清楚不過就學校來講學校本來在聘任老師的時候就有一個\n709826\t732083\t藍絲的查詢系統這教育部有提供只是說這個藍絲的查詢系統是人事室他要去負責查詢內部使用不是一般人民所以假設說要開放的話我覺得至少醫院可以有這個類似我們學校裡面人事室這種查詢系統應該是沒有什麼特別的問題\n732802\t753834\t至於一般人民那可能就是另外的考慮我現在知道的就是其實是有狼屍的查詢系統這件事情在我們衛黃委員會已經從去年12月炒到現在無數的委員質詢都卡在這個各自法各自法的問題那我們來看一下左邊是醫師查詢系統右邊是律師\n754975\t775861\t那這個是我本人的登錄啦你可以看到很簡單的資料大概性別、科別、職業地點等等的那您是法界人士您一定也知道像是律師法務部會有職業律師查詢平台而且有兩個平台喔第一個平台是查你有沒有合法的執照第二個平台是查你是否有被懲戒過還有這個懲戒的內容是什麼\n777842\t806924\t那律師的懲戒我們要注意不一定是涉及刑責判刑確定才會被懲戒對吧違反律師倫理就有可能被懲戒而且會把這個違反律師倫理詳細的內容列在上面因為律師法有規定律師法第46條是2020年後行政修正的懲戒法院應該將懲戒的決議送達受懲戒人律師公會還有主管機關並且公告之\n808766\t836588\t醫師更複雜因為醫師對於在職業的過程中患者的身體的接觸是比其他職業多的吧這個您承認吧所以你會不會覺得相對於這個律師查詢系統我們的醫師查詢系統稍顯不足呢是稍顯不足還是大大不足人民應該有權選擇自己所希望的醫師跟律師嘛政府應該有必要提供充分的資訊讓人民去做選擇\n839093\t862863\t如果就我的接觸範圍來講因為老師對一個人的影響也很大所以我想不管是家長也好同學也好基本上都不希望有老師在學校所以老師有他自己的查詢系統可是我們的查詢系統可能不像律師那麼樣的公開跟周延但是至少有啦\n863663\t884164\t那律師因為他涉及到人民的訴訟權的保障還有他司法權益而且他的這個律師的職業也影響到很重大的公共利益我覺得這樣公開是正確的那至於醫師因為我比較少去看醫師他也涉及到人民的身體自主身體安全涉及到這個\n886704\t907880\t都是比較後半段但是就現在比較通盛行的醫療人權來講我有自主權嘛我希望選擇一個我認為適當的醫生嘛那我當然也除了這個剛剛委員所提供的這些資料之外我當然除了去打聽他是不是開刀我會開刀之外我當然也希望\n908480\t935771\t如果他有什麼樣不適宜的讓我知道我覺得這是作為一個現代的人享受醫療人權一個基本的一個立場那這邊就是問到憲法保障隱私權因為釋字603號有指出在重大公共利益或是保障他人權益情況下得在法律明文授予合理限制所以聽起來大法官提名人您認為狼醫的懲戒資訊涉及重大公共利益\n936451\t954305\t比如說病患的安全醫療的信賴災犯的風險防治即使屬於個人隱私也可以在比例原則下受到限制與公開嗎剛剛您的論點是這樣是嗎同意嗎對但是公開的方式公開的範圍這個當然立法者可以去做限制跟檢討好\n955973\t985243\t因為這些狼藝的護航者他們可能會不同意未來你也是會遇到他們來打憲法訴訟說他們不願意被公開那我舉這一兩年的例子是上一張這一兩年的例子在健保資料案中憲法法庭是採取中度審查因為健保資料涉及個人病史屬於高度敏感的資訊如果連健保資料這麼私密的資訊憲法法庭都只是採中度審查那麼\n986303\t1009432\t醫師或是教師是攸關公共安全病患還有後備醫師學生們的身體健康信賴保障然後因違反職業倫理 數級形式等等被懲戒揭露的對象並非社會任意公眾而是可能被服務的對象但是從大法官提名人的口中其實可能被服務的對象幾乎是全民了啦\n1010012\t1028040\t是不是您未來如果遇到這樣子的憲法訴訟您會認為應該可以採取較寬鬆的審查標準呢我們一般這個是每個國家的審查方式都不一樣那以美國方式來講常常會用低度中度跟高度審查\n1029281\t1049716\t那我我留學德國我們德國沒有沒有這一套那基本上就是依照憲法23條的規定去去審查他的一個合憲性與否那當然這裡面最重要的就是利益的權衡那剛委員講的就是說站在國民健康以國民健康這個做一個標準化來講的話這應該是我們\n1052219\t1060892\t追求很高的公共利益隱私權當然是個人非常重要的利益那兩個人在權衡之間當然我們不能說權有跟權無啦\n1061862\t1085504\t我會比較贊成要公開但是公開的方法限制跟時間這個可以討論謝謝好那這邊我們就是要跟你討論這個這是您剛一再提到的兒少平台是公開的教育部有亡羊補牢雖然難以徹底的解決任用狼獅的疑慮可是至少跨出了一大步現在醫師法沒有明文強制公告懲戒的規定但是\n1087025\t1113647\t實務上各縣市的衛生局還有醫師公會是會公告懲戒的資料的那既然這些這個主管機關都已經直接公告了您認為可不可以直接建設平台了因為這個是衛福部部長從1月到現在遇到的問題就是說你的意思就是說建一個平台然後直接對就是你一直在講的啊跟教師類似的平台啊\n1114918\t1133500\t指引到其他的工會去看嗎 還是怎麼樣不是 他現在要建立狼藝平台就類似像律師一樣他如果有接受到懲戒 他是可以被查出來的如果懲戒是一個公開資料是政府資訊公開資料 那當然沒問題啊他是現在主管機關的公開資料\n1134761\t1153988\t比如說我的縣市衛生局或者是醫師公會我有懲戒委員會開完了有結果了他們是會把他公告出來的而且我也在我當過醫師懲戒委員會的委員我記得他們如果那個地方夠大的話因為公報大部分都只有這個\n1156443\t1173089\t這個中央部會才有但是大的直轄市政府他們也有自己的公報那公報上面就會有那個懲戒的那個但是他沒有很仔細啊他可能沒有很多事實他只是告訴你說某某醫生因為為了什麼被懲戒比如說去上課幾天\n1174484\t1202804\t然後他停業幾天這個有但是事實跟理由可能所以這邊很關鍵的許多委員他們希望因為他們可能有獲得選民的陳情等等他們希望可以建置一個完整的平台查詢平台就跟教師律師一樣就想請問大法官提名人這一點您是否認同因為這個教師基本上是由教育部來全權主管不管是大學或中小學\n1203604\t1221621\t那醫師的部分我比較不清楚,因為中央我不清楚好,謝謝陳經理委員詢問,也謝謝被提名的蕭教授的說明,謝謝\n","txt":"蕭教授你好\n我自我介紹一下我的背景是醫師所以今天我會跟您討論一些醫師管理法律的問題我們最近其實有一些社會矚目案件我不知道你有沒有注意到但是有三位台大婦產科醫師還有一位骨科醫師涉入了性侵或者是性騷等等的事件我會先從婦產科開始談起畢竟這個族群是最容易接觸到女性病患的族群\n那我要背景介紹一下就是說台大婦產科教授主治醫師還有住院醫師發生了三起性侵或是性騷的案件那有一位黃姓的住院醫師對女性病患猥褻性侵經一審的判處有罪刑期三年目前仍可上訴不過在案發之後呢黃醫師完成了住院醫師訓練並且還獲得專科醫師執照\n更直接在台大有更整的行為另外一位陳教授他也是我們婦產科醫學會的前任理事長他傳出對多名學生研究生性騷擾台大醫院主動的啟動調查經性評會確認屬實最終解聘該名醫師\n那前兩週新聞比較大的是一位正性的醫師涉嫌下藥還有性侵多名女性2025年出遭起訴後棄保潛逃現在成為了通緝犯這些醫師的共通點在於就算是已經進入司法程序或者是有正式的行政調查報告他們卻持續執行臨床的業務並且沒有被送懲戒\n為什麼明明醫師法裡面有懲戒的制度可是面臨這些狼藝的問題始終沒有辦法給予合理的處罰問題就在於現在的條文不夠明確這邊我先列出醫師法第25條的規定\n他有兩個機關可以一副懲戒一個是醫師公會一個是主管機關那下列業務上有重大重複發生過失利用業務機會之犯罪行為經判刑確立屬醫療必要的過度用藥或治療行為四執行業務違背了醫學倫理這期款只要是符合其中一項都可以移送可是問題在於過去大家很保守\n只有在第二款的規定才敢去送移送那還有這兩個機關會互相推卸責任所以一個案件從發生起訴到判刑甚至有的是過了一審二審好幾年最終都不知道看了多少病人了很多女性的病患是處於風險之中的這是一個超大的制度性問題\n那所以未還委員會針對這個從1月去年12月開始就不斷的質詢也有辦了專報等等的大家會對於這樣事件極度的震驚啊就連林靜儀的次長在回應我們的說法都說早就可以用違反醫療倫理這一款去移送可是還是沒有人敢這樣做所以我在委員會有提出一個臨時提案是要求呢\n這個衛福部可以盡速就違反醫學倫理的內容內涵來做出函釋未來只要是性騷或是性侵這樣子的發生行政調查確立根本就不需要等刑事判決就屬於違反醫療倫理並且希望主管機關也就是衛福部趕快把這個函釋做出來公告上網讓全部人都可以參考但因為您是大法官提名人現在這些被行政調查以後\n他們是因為矚目案件所以經過立法委員的質詢才被移送懲戒的狼藝還有很多是在台灣各個角落可能有其他的被害人加害人還躲在陰影中未來這些狼藝有可能一路會上訴到申請釋憲所以您的見解對我們來說格外的重要他們會來跟您吵他們必須是符合第二款才可以被送懲戒這邊要請問您的見解如何\n謝謝委員的提問如果我印象記得沒錯的話有關於醫師的懲戒其實在醫師法裡面有兩個途徑一個是委員所提出來的25條另外好像我如果記得沒錯的話另外在30幾條還有一個是主管機關本來就是依職權就可以停止他醫師的業務的執行\n那這個案子呢如果委員有興趣可以去參考當時候在台中因為我在台中書院會也處理過一個那個中醫師摻雜很多奇怪的藥讓一個那個甚至好像是前副議長的兒子死亡的那個案子那個案子的爭執就是說\n醫事公會沒有移送但是我們台中市衛生局主管機關運用抱歉我現在忘了不是25條是後面的條文30幾條條文主管機關他本來就可以依職權去停職\n他没有办法去让他的医师因为惩戒的手段很多他没有办法让他丧失医师的资格证书但是他可以暂时让他业务他可以停止他执行比如说一年三年所以假设是现在这个问题的话我觉得不一定因为你要医师惩戒的话要送到那个医师惩戒委员会那医师惩戒委员会又耗时耗力啊那我觉得这个方式不一定是正确的反而是应该在\n醫療主管機關自己本身可以依職權去做懲處的時候其實就可以了因為在這裡我想我不曉得委員最後的想法是說要讓他喪失職業資格廢止醫師證書還是暫時讓他這個是懲戒委員會的職責\n是不是讓他只要暫時停止業務的執行因為主管機關能做的跟醫師懲戒委員會能做的不太一樣我剛講的廢止這個證書然後廢止醫師資格這個主管機關不能做這個一定要懲戒委員會然後最後要法院但是如果只是要讓他暫時停止業務的執行因為這樣就可以保護後續的患者\n那我如果記得沒錯的話主管機關就可以做我會再去調查但衛福部至今還沒有提出方法要如何讓他們暫時停職那應該是縣市主管機關現在因為有一些還在護航的人會覺得說主要是因為無罪推定的原則所以我們不應該先行移送可是這樣反而傷害了很多受害者的身心靈教授是公法專家\n你應該會知道說無罪推定是刑事訴訟的基本原則但是他不絕對排除行政機關基於職業監理進行懲戒因此依據醫學倫理規範病患申訴調查報告或是第三方鑑定若能確定行為屬實\n即使未定罪也可以啟動懲戒程序不違憲這是現在很多衛航委員會林靜儀次長還有被害人被害人家屬等等的共識我只是想確認大法官提名人是不是也這樣子的認為\n有關於剛剛委員所講的這個無罪推定當然基本上那個是刑法的基本原則那同樣的行政法也是不過他有另外規定我舉一個例子給委員做參考在我們地方制度法裡面對於這個貪污圖利的縣市首長一審有罪就可以停止\n不用等到他三審確定他主要的理由就是說縣市長他是四年的任期你等確定判決他都已經離職了 卸職了沒有處罰的必要所以他有他的正當理由在他還沒有確定判決之前就可以停他的職務那醫師的\n方式我想應該看他有什麼樣的正當理由比如說保護病患而且他的罪行重大保護病患以至於有必要是不是調查就可以或者要至少等一審我想這個是立法委員的職權可以去斟酌但是如果是一般的醫師的話另外可以參考的就是教師法\n就不是任教師這個等一下我們會提到不過我謝謝蕭教授未來如果有機會的話您可以站在保護這些受害者的公平正義的這方面因為未來一定會遇到這樣子的事件的機會在下一個問題\n其實也是有關醫療的公法議題這個問題就是到底要不要把狼醫的資訊公佈在一個平台或是網站上有沒有涉及他們的個人隱私權因為胃黃委員會從今年的1月部長他表示說可以評估這樣子做到7月行政效率非常的差最大的問題就是卡在一個地方我播一段影片給您看\n合格醫師查詢系統是一個沒有辦法查詢的系統主席很不好意思我只是說因為這一路的規劃都有參與所以我跟您報告說他初始的本醫師這樣設計對您剛講的這個部分我們做一下確認在各自法授權的範圍內可不可完全的法務部參事來\n各支法哪一條阻卻了醫療法授予的醫師到底有沒有執照要被查詢可被查詢各支法哪一條阻卻了我們要要問衛福部這個醫生到底有醫生的跡象是不是合格的醫生沒有各支法會阻卻這一種行為嗎\n你不敢說,以前是法務部,現在我想問國發會,國發會有人來嗎?現在是怎樣?這麼簡單的問題,整個政府沒辦的人,我就停?這麼簡單的問題,這麼做到保釣處長、副書長沒辦的人,我就回答?你現在是在爭笑喔?八位我想那個,前面以前是這樣子啦齁,那我想未來我們一定來齁,把他處理好喔這句話我已經聽過齁,很久很久很久了會啦,我已經認真做案什麼認真做案,你不要再這樣了,喔\n主席,我不曉得怎麼諮詢了,我不能用火冒三丈這四個字來形容我此時的狀況我們拍個專報啦什麼專報,大家都親在公共,什麼都不知道,還說白菜,又搞不清楚我告訴你,我們立法院大家都聽過,都聽得很清楚,只有你搞不清楚這樣你就保證,保證我來做,保證叫我們的議事人員來做沒有搞不清楚\n我們很清楚好,那你告訴我你告訴我你的醫事查詢系統可以查到每一個醫生都是不是合法有職照的嗎?不是大聲大聲就好你那個阿孔克力你搞不清楚你的系統根本就是有問題你聽不清楚\n現在是怎樣 自己搞不清楚 你說法人聽不清楚我們很清楚啊 哪裡很清楚以前就因為公司法的問題 如果大家在乎我們當然來檢討這樣可以嗎對啊 我就是問你啊 我就是問你檢討什麼 侮辱什麼你現在是在做什麼 你現在是在\n大法官提名 您可以評論一下他們卡關卡在什麼地方嗎醫師的情形我不是很清楚不過就學校來講學校本來在聘任老師的時候就有一個\n藍絲的查詢系統這教育部有提供只是說這個藍絲的查詢系統是人事室他要去負責查詢內部使用不是一般人民所以假設說要開放的話我覺得至少醫院可以有這個類似我們學校裡面人事室這種查詢系統應該是沒有什麼特別的問題\n至於一般人民那可能就是另外的考慮我現在知道的就是其實是有狼屍的查詢系統這件事情在我們衛黃委員會已經從去年12月炒到現在無數的委員質詢都卡在這個各自法各自法的問題那我們來看一下左邊是醫師查詢系統右邊是律師\n那這個是我本人的登錄啦你可以看到很簡單的資料大概性別、科別、職業地點等等的那您是法界人士您一定也知道像是律師法務部會有職業律師查詢平台而且有兩個平台喔第一個平台是查你有沒有合法的執照第二個平台是查你是否有被懲戒過還有這個懲戒的內容是什麼\n那律師的懲戒我們要注意不一定是涉及刑責判刑確定才會被懲戒對吧違反律師倫理就有可能被懲戒而且會把這個違反律師倫理詳細的內容列在上面因為律師法有規定律師法第46條是2020年後行政修正的懲戒法院應該將懲戒的決議送達受懲戒人律師公會還有主管機關並且公告之\n醫師更複雜因為醫師對於在職業的過程中患者的身體的接觸是比其他職業多的吧這個您承認吧所以你會不會覺得相對於這個律師查詢系統我們的醫師查詢系統稍顯不足呢是稍顯不足還是大大不足人民應該有權選擇自己所希望的醫師跟律師嘛政府應該有必要提供充分的資訊讓人民去做選擇\n如果就我的接觸範圍來講因為老師對一個人的影響也很大所以我想不管是家長也好同學也好基本上都不希望有老師在學校所以老師有他自己的查詢系統可是我們的查詢系統可能不像律師那麼樣的公開跟周延但是至少有啦\n那律師因為他涉及到人民的訴訟權的保障還有他司法權益而且他的這個律師的職業也影響到很重大的公共利益我覺得這樣公開是正確的那至於醫師因為我比較少去看醫師他也涉及到人民的身體自主身體安全涉及到這個\n都是比較後半段但是就現在比較通盛行的醫療人權來講我有自主權嘛我希望選擇一個我認為適當的醫生嘛那我當然也除了這個剛剛委員所提供的這些資料之外我當然除了去打聽他是不是開刀我會開刀之外我當然也希望\n如果他有什麼樣不適宜的讓我知道我覺得這是作為一個現代的人享受醫療人權一個基本的一個立場那這邊就是問到憲法保障隱私權因為釋字603號有指出在重大公共利益或是保障他人權益情況下得在法律明文授予合理限制所以聽起來大法官提名人您認為狼醫的懲戒資訊涉及重大公共利益\n比如說病患的安全醫療的信賴災犯的風險防治即使屬於個人隱私也可以在比例原則下受到限制與公開嗎剛剛您的論點是這樣是嗎同意嗎對但是公開的方式公開的範圍這個當然立法者可以去做限制跟檢討好\n因為這些狼藝的護航者他們可能會不同意未來你也是會遇到他們來打憲法訴訟說他們不願意被公開那我舉這一兩年的例子是上一張這一兩年的例子在健保資料案中憲法法庭是採取中度審查因為健保資料涉及個人病史屬於高度敏感的資訊如果連健保資料這麼私密的資訊憲法法庭都只是採中度審查那麼\n醫師或是教師是攸關公共安全病患還有後備醫師學生們的身體健康信賴保障然後因違反職業倫理 數級形式等等被懲戒揭露的對象並非社會任意公眾而是可能被服務的對象但是從大法官提名人的口中其實可能被服務的對象幾乎是全民了啦\n是不是您未來如果遇到這樣子的憲法訴訟您會認為應該可以採取較寬鬆的審查標準呢我們一般這個是每個國家的審查方式都不一樣那以美國方式來講常常會用低度中度跟高度審查\n那我我留學德國我們德國沒有沒有這一套那基本上就是依照憲法23條的規定去去審查他的一個合憲性與否那當然這裡面最重要的就是利益的權衡那剛委員講的就是說站在國民健康以國民健康這個做一個標準化來講的話這應該是我們\n追求很高的公共利益隱私權當然是個人非常重要的利益那兩個人在權衡之間當然我們不能說權有跟權無啦\n我會比較贊成要公開但是公開的方法限制跟時間這個可以討論謝謝好那這邊我們就是要跟你討論這個這是您剛一再提到的兒少平台是公開的教育部有亡羊補牢雖然難以徹底的解決任用狼獅的疑慮可是至少跨出了一大步現在醫師法沒有明文強制公告懲戒的規定但是\n實務上各縣市的衛生局還有醫師公會是會公告懲戒的資料的那既然這些這個主管機關都已經直接公告了您認為可不可以直接建設平台了因為這個是衛福部部長從1月到現在遇到的問題就是說你的意思就是說建一個平台然後直接對就是你一直在講的啊跟教師類似的平台啊\n指引到其他的工會去看嗎 還是怎麼樣不是 他現在要建立狼藝平台就類似像律師一樣他如果有接受到懲戒 他是可以被查出來的如果懲戒是一個公開資料是政府資訊公開資料 那當然沒問題啊他是現在主管機關的公開資料\n比如說我的縣市衛生局或者是醫師公會我有懲戒委員會開完了有結果了他們是會把他公告出來的而且我也在我當過醫師懲戒委員會的委員我記得他們如果那個地方夠大的話因為公報大部分都只有這個\n這個中央部會才有但是大的直轄市政府他們也有自己的公報那公報上面就會有那個懲戒的那個但是他沒有很仔細啊他可能沒有很多事實他只是告訴你說某某醫生因為為了什麼被懲戒比如說去上課幾天\n然後他停業幾天這個有但是事實跟理由可能所以這邊很關鍵的許多委員他們希望因為他們可能有獲得選民的陳情等等他們希望可以建置一個完整的平台查詢平台就跟教師律師一樣就想請問大法官提名人這一點您是否認同因為這個教師基本上是由教育部來全權主管不管是大學或中小學\n那醫師的部分我比較不清楚,因為中央我不清楚好,謝謝陳經理委員詢問,也謝謝被提名的蕭教授的說明,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.052 --> 00:03.515\n蕭教授你好\n\n00:04.667 --> 00:32.656\n我自我介紹一下我的背景是醫師所以今天我會跟您討論一些醫師管理法律的問題我們最近其實有一些社會矚目案件我不知道你有沒有注意到但是有三位台大婦產科醫師還有一位骨科醫師涉入了性侵或者是性騷等等的事件我會先從婦產科開始談起畢竟這個族群是最容易接觸到女性病患的族群\n\n00:33.576 --> 00:57.597\n那我要背景介紹一下就是說台大婦產科教授主治醫師還有住院醫師發生了三起性侵或是性騷的案件那有一位黃姓的住院醫師對女性病患猥褻性侵經一審的判處有罪刑期三年目前仍可上訴不過在案發之後呢黃醫師完成了住院醫師訓練並且還獲得專科醫師執照\n\n01:00.900 --> 01:17.499\n更直接在台大有更整的行為另外一位陳教授他也是我們婦產科醫學會的前任理事長他傳出對多名學生研究生性騷擾台大醫院主動的啟動調查經性評會確認屬實最終解聘該名醫師\n\n01:21.744 --> 01:48.120\n那前兩週新聞比較大的是一位正性的醫師涉嫌下藥還有性侵多名女性2025年出遭起訴後棄保潛逃現在成為了通緝犯這些醫師的共通點在於就算是已經進入司法程序或者是有正式的行政調查報告他們卻持續執行臨床的業務並且沒有被送懲戒\n\n01:49.601 --> 02:02.672\n為什麼明明醫師法裡面有懲戒的制度可是面臨這些狼藝的問題始終沒有辦法給予合理的處罰問題就在於現在的條文不夠明確這邊我先列出醫師法第25條的規定\n\n02:04.554 --> 02:32.055\n他有兩個機關可以一副懲戒一個是醫師公會一個是主管機關那下列業務上有重大重複發生過失利用業務機會之犯罪行為經判刑確立屬醫療必要的過度用藥或治療行為四執行業務違背了醫學倫理這期款只要是符合其中一項都可以移送可是問題在於過去大家很保守\n\n02:32.916 --> 02:53.963\n只有在第二款的規定才敢去送移送那還有這兩個機關會互相推卸責任所以一個案件從發生起訴到判刑甚至有的是過了一審二審好幾年最終都不知道看了多少病人了很多女性的病患是處於風險之中的這是一個超大的制度性問題\n\n02:55.163 --> 03:18.129\n那所以未還委員會針對這個從1月去年12月開始就不斷的質詢也有辦了專報等等的大家會對於這樣事件極度的震驚啊就連林靜儀的次長在回應我們的說法都說早就可以用違反醫療倫理這一款去移送可是還是沒有人敢這樣做所以我在委員會有提出一個臨時提案是要求呢\n\n03:19.209 --> 03:47.800\n這個衛福部可以盡速就違反醫學倫理的內容內涵來做出函釋未來只要是性騷或是性侵這樣子的發生行政調查確立根本就不需要等刑事判決就屬於違反醫療倫理並且希望主管機關也就是衛福部趕快把這個函釋做出來公告上網讓全部人都可以參考但因為您是大法官提名人現在這些被行政調查以後\n\n03:48.720 --> 04:17.512\n他們是因為矚目案件所以經過立法委員的質詢才被移送懲戒的狼藝還有很多是在台灣各個角落可能有其他的被害人加害人還躲在陰影中未來這些狼藝有可能一路會上訴到申請釋憲所以您的見解對我們來說格外的重要他們會來跟您吵他們必須是符合第二款才可以被送懲戒這邊要請問您的見解如何\n\n04:19.324 --> 04:40.949\n謝謝委員的提問如果我印象記得沒錯的話有關於醫師的懲戒其實在醫師法裡面有兩個途徑一個是委員所提出來的25條另外好像我如果記得沒錯的話另外在30幾條還有一個是主管機關本來就是依職權就可以停止他醫師的業務的執行\n\n04:42.608 --> 04:59.034\n那這個案子呢如果委員有興趣可以去參考當時候在台中因為我在台中書院會也處理過一個那個中醫師摻雜很多奇怪的藥讓一個那個甚至好像是前副議長的兒子死亡的那個案子那個案子的爭執就是說\n\n05:00.775 --> 05:13.353\n醫事公會沒有移送但是我們台中市衛生局主管機關運用抱歉我現在忘了不是25條是後面的條文30幾條條文主管機關他本來就可以依職權去停職\n\n05:15.213 --> 05:43.262\n他没有办法去让他的医师因为惩戒的手段很多他没有办法让他丧失医师的资格证书但是他可以暂时让他业务他可以停止他执行比如说一年三年所以假设是现在这个问题的话我觉得不一定因为你要医师惩戒的话要送到那个医师惩戒委员会那医师惩戒委员会又耗时耗力啊那我觉得这个方式不一定是正确的反而是应该在\n\n05:45.104 --> 05:56.191\n醫療主管機關自己本身可以依職權去做懲處的時候其實就可以了因為在這裡我想我不曉得委員最後的想法是說要讓他喪失職業資格廢止醫師證書還是暫時讓他這個是懲戒委員會的職責\n\n06:03.036 --> 06:29.016\n是不是讓他只要暫時停止業務的執行因為主管機關能做的跟醫師懲戒委員會能做的不太一樣我剛講的廢止這個證書然後廢止醫師資格這個主管機關不能做這個一定要懲戒委員會然後最後要法院但是如果只是要讓他暫時停止業務的執行因為這樣就可以保護後續的患者\n\n06:29.696 --> 06:55.690\n那我如果記得沒錯的話主管機關就可以做我會再去調查但衛福部至今還沒有提出方法要如何讓他們暫時停職那應該是縣市主管機關現在因為有一些還在護航的人會覺得說主要是因為無罪推定的原則所以我們不應該先行移送可是這樣反而傷害了很多受害者的身心靈教授是公法專家\n\n06:56.590 --> 07:13.671\n你應該會知道說無罪推定是刑事訴訟的基本原則但是他不絕對排除行政機關基於職業監理進行懲戒因此依據醫學倫理規範病患申訴調查報告或是第三方鑑定若能確定行為屬實\n\n07:15.032 --> 07:29.093\n即使未定罪也可以啟動懲戒程序不違憲這是現在很多衛航委員會林靜儀次長還有被害人被害人家屬等等的共識我只是想確認大法官提名人是不是也這樣子的認為\n\n07:30.819 --> 07:53.563\n有關於剛剛委員所講的這個無罪推定當然基本上那個是刑法的基本原則那同樣的行政法也是不過他有另外規定我舉一個例子給委員做參考在我們地方制度法裡面對於這個貪污圖利的縣市首長一審有罪就可以停止\n\n07:54.212 --> 08:10.812\n不用等到他三審確定他主要的理由就是說縣市長他是四年的任期你等確定判決他都已經離職了卸職了沒有處罰的必要所以他有他的正當理由在他還沒有確定判決之前就可以停他的職務那醫師的\n\n08:13.695 --> 08:40.728\n方式我想應該看他有什麼樣的正當理由比如說保護病患而且他的罪行重大保護病患以至於有必要是不是調查就可以或者要至少等一審我想這個是立法委員的職權可以去斟酌但是如果是一般的醫師的話另外可以參考的就是教師法\n\n08:41.388 --> 08:57.095\n就不是任教師這個等一下我們會提到不過我謝謝蕭教授未來如果有機會的話您可以站在保護這些受害者的公平正義的這方面因為未來一定會遇到這樣子的事件的機會在下一個問題\n\n08:59.934 --> 09:24.363\n其實也是有關醫療的公法議題這個問題就是到底要不要把狼醫的資訊公佈在一個平台或是網站上有沒有涉及他們的個人隱私權因為胃黃委員會從今年的1月部長他表示說可以評估這樣子做到7月行政效率非常的差最大的問題就是卡在一個地方我播一段影片給您看\n\n09:28.157 --> 09:36.360\n合格醫師查詢系統是一個沒有辦法查詢的系統主席很不好意思我只是說因為這一路的規劃都有參與所以我跟您報告說他初始的本醫師這樣設計對您剛講的這個部分我們做一下確認在各自法授權的範圍內可不可完全的法務部參事來\n\n09:48.444 --> 10:01.860\n各支法哪一條阻卻了醫療法授予的醫師到底有沒有執照要被查詢可被查詢各支法哪一條阻卻了我們要要問衛福部這個醫生到底有醫生的跡象是不是合格的醫生沒有各支法會阻卻這一種行為嗎\n\n10:06.065 --> 10:26.725\n你不敢說,以前是法務部,現在我想問國發會,國發會有人來嗎?現在是怎樣?這麼簡單的問題,整個政府沒辦的人,我就停?這麼簡單的問題,這麼做到保釣處長、副書長沒辦的人,我就回答?你現在是在爭笑喔?八位我想那個,前面以前是這樣子啦齁,那我想未來我們一定來齁,把他處理好喔這句話我已經聽過齁,很久很久很久了會啦,我已經認真做案什麼認真做案,你不要再這樣了,喔\n\n10:27.425 --> 10:48.021\n主席,我不曉得怎麼諮詢了,我不能用火冒三丈這四個字來形容我此時的狀況我們拍個專報啦什麼專報,大家都親在公共,什麼都不知道,還說白菜,又搞不清楚我告訴你,我們立法院大家都聽過,都聽得很清楚,只有你搞不清楚這樣你就保證,保證我來做,保證叫我們的議事人員來做沒有搞不清楚\n\n10:48.921 --> 11:02.773\n我們很清楚好,那你告訴我你告訴我你的醫事查詢系統可以查到每一個醫生都是不是合法有職照的嗎?不是大聲大聲就好你那個阿孔克力你搞不清楚你的系統根本就是有問題你聽不清楚\n\n11:04.635 --> 11:15.142\n現在是怎樣自己搞不清楚你說法人聽不清楚我們很清楚啊哪裡很清楚以前就因為公司法的問題如果大家在乎我們當然來檢討這樣可以嗎對啊我就是問你啊我就是問你檢討什麼侮辱什麼你現在是在做什麼你現在是在\n\n11:20.605 --> 11:26.948\n大法官提名您可以評論一下他們卡關卡在什麼地方嗎醫師的情形我不是很清楚不過就學校來講學校本來在聘任老師的時候就有一個\n\n11:49.826 --> 12:12.083\n藍絲的查詢系統這教育部有提供只是說這個藍絲的查詢系統是人事室他要去負責查詢內部使用不是一般人民所以假設說要開放的話我覺得至少醫院可以有這個類似我們學校裡面人事室這種查詢系統應該是沒有什麼特別的問題\n\n12:12.802 --> 12:33.834\n至於一般人民那可能就是另外的考慮我現在知道的就是其實是有狼屍的查詢系統這件事情在我們衛黃委員會已經從去年12月炒到現在無數的委員質詢都卡在這個各自法各自法的問題那我們來看一下左邊是醫師查詢系統右邊是律師\n\n12:34.975 --> 12:55.861\n那這個是我本人的登錄啦你可以看到很簡單的資料大概性別、科別、職業地點等等的那您是法界人士您一定也知道像是律師法務部會有職業律師查詢平台而且有兩個平台喔第一個平台是查你有沒有合法的執照第二個平台是查你是否有被懲戒過還有這個懲戒的內容是什麼\n\n12:57.842 --> 13:26.924\n那律師的懲戒我們要注意不一定是涉及刑責判刑確定才會被懲戒對吧違反律師倫理就有可能被懲戒而且會把這個違反律師倫理詳細的內容列在上面因為律師法有規定律師法第46條是2020年後行政修正的懲戒法院應該將懲戒的決議送達受懲戒人律師公會還有主管機關並且公告之\n\n13:28.766 --> 13:56.588\n醫師更複雜因為醫師對於在職業的過程中患者的身體的接觸是比其他職業多的吧這個您承認吧所以你會不會覺得相對於這個律師查詢系統我們的醫師查詢系統稍顯不足呢是稍顯不足還是大大不足人民應該有權選擇自己所希望的醫師跟律師嘛政府應該有必要提供充分的資訊讓人民去做選擇\n\n13:59.093 --> 14:22.863\n如果就我的接觸範圍來講因為老師對一個人的影響也很大所以我想不管是家長也好同學也好基本上都不希望有老師在學校所以老師有他自己的查詢系統可是我們的查詢系統可能不像律師那麼樣的公開跟周延但是至少有啦\n\n14:23.663 --> 14:44.164\n那律師因為他涉及到人民的訴訟權的保障還有他司法權益而且他的這個律師的職業也影響到很重大的公共利益我覺得這樣公開是正確的那至於醫師因為我比較少去看醫師他也涉及到人民的身體自主身體安全涉及到這個\n\n14:46.704 --> 15:07.880\n都是比較後半段但是就現在比較通盛行的醫療人權來講我有自主權嘛我希望選擇一個我認為適當的醫生嘛那我當然也除了這個剛剛委員所提供的這些資料之外我當然除了去打聽他是不是開刀我會開刀之外我當然也希望\n\n15:08.480 --> 15:35.771\n如果他有什麼樣不適宜的讓我知道我覺得這是作為一個現代的人享受醫療人權一個基本的一個立場那這邊就是問到憲法保障隱私權因為釋字603號有指出在重大公共利益或是保障他人權益情況下得在法律明文授予合理限制所以聽起來大法官提名人您認為狼醫的懲戒資訊涉及重大公共利益\n\n15:36.451 --> 15:54.305\n比如說病患的安全醫療的信賴災犯的風險防治即使屬於個人隱私也可以在比例原則下受到限制與公開嗎剛剛您的論點是這樣是嗎同意嗎對但是公開的方式公開的範圍這個當然立法者可以去做限制跟檢討好\n\n15:55.973 --> 16:25.243\n因為這些狼藝的護航者他們可能會不同意未來你也是會遇到他們來打憲法訴訟說他們不願意被公開那我舉這一兩年的例子是上一張這一兩年的例子在健保資料案中憲法法庭是採取中度審查因為健保資料涉及個人病史屬於高度敏感的資訊如果連健保資料這麼私密的資訊憲法法庭都只是採中度審查那麼\n\n16:26.303 --> 16:49.432\n醫師或是教師是攸關公共安全病患還有後備醫師學生們的身體健康信賴保障然後因違反職業倫理數級形式等等被懲戒揭露的對象並非社會任意公眾而是可能被服務的對象但是從大法官提名人的口中其實可能被服務的對象幾乎是全民了啦\n\n16:50.012 --> 17:08.040\n是不是您未來如果遇到這樣子的憲法訴訟您會認為應該可以採取較寬鬆的審查標準呢我們一般這個是每個國家的審查方式都不一樣那以美國方式來講常常會用低度中度跟高度審查\n\n17:09.281 --> 17:29.716\n那我我留學德國我們德國沒有沒有這一套那基本上就是依照憲法23條的規定去去審查他的一個合憲性與否那當然這裡面最重要的就是利益的權衡那剛委員講的就是說站在國民健康以國民健康這個做一個標準化來講的話這應該是我們\n\n17:32.219 --> 17:40.892\n追求很高的公共利益隱私權當然是個人非常重要的利益那兩個人在權衡之間當然我們不能說權有跟權無啦\n\n17:41.862 --> 18:05.504\n我會比較贊成要公開但是公開的方法限制跟時間這個可以討論謝謝好那這邊我們就是要跟你討論這個這是您剛一再提到的兒少平台是公開的教育部有亡羊補牢雖然難以徹底的解決任用狼獅的疑慮可是至少跨出了一大步現在醫師法沒有明文強制公告懲戒的規定但是\n\n18:07.025 --> 18:33.647\n實務上各縣市的衛生局還有醫師公會是會公告懲戒的資料的那既然這些這個主管機關都已經直接公告了您認為可不可以直接建設平台了因為這個是衛福部部長從1月到現在遇到的問題就是說你的意思就是說建一個平台然後直接對就是你一直在講的啊跟教師類似的平台啊\n\n18:34.918 --> 18:53.500\n指引到其他的工會去看嗎還是怎麼樣不是他現在要建立狼藝平台就類似像律師一樣他如果有接受到懲戒他是可以被查出來的如果懲戒是一個公開資料是政府資訊公開資料那當然沒問題啊他是現在主管機關的公開資料\n\n18:54.761 --> 19:13.988\n比如說我的縣市衛生局或者是醫師公會我有懲戒委員會開完了有結果了他們是會把他公告出來的而且我也在我當過醫師懲戒委員會的委員我記得他們如果那個地方夠大的話因為公報大部分都只有這個\n\n19:16.443 --> 19:33.089\n這個中央部會才有但是大的直轄市政府他們也有自己的公報那公報上面就會有那個懲戒的那個但是他沒有很仔細啊他可能沒有很多事實他只是告訴你說某某醫生因為為了什麼被懲戒比如說去上課幾天\n\n19:34.484 --> 20:02.804\n然後他停業幾天這個有但是事實跟理由可能所以這邊很關鍵的許多委員他們希望因為他們可能有獲得選民的陳情等等他們希望可以建置一個完整的平台查詢平台就跟教師律師一樣就想請問大法官提名人這一點您是否認同因為這個教師基本上是由教育部來全權主管不管是大學或中小學\n\n20:03.604 --> 20:21.621\n那醫師的部分我比較不清楚,因為中央我不清楚好,謝謝陳經理委員詢問,也謝謝被提名的蕭教授的說明,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.052,"end":3.515,"text":"蕭教授你好"},{"start":4.667,"end":32.656,"text":"我自我介紹一下我的背景是醫師所以今天我會跟您討論一些醫師管理法律的問題我們最近其實有一些社會矚目案件我不知道你有沒有注意到但是有三位台大婦產科醫師還有一位骨科醫師涉入了性侵或者是性騷等等的事件我會先從婦產科開始談起畢竟這個族群是最容易接觸到女性病患的族群"},{"start":33.576,"end":57.597,"text":"那我要背景介紹一下就是說台大婦產科教授主治醫師還有住院醫師發生了三起性侵或是性騷的案件那有一位黃姓的住院醫師對女性病患猥褻性侵經一審的判處有罪刑期三年目前仍可上訴不過在案發之後呢黃醫師完成了住院醫師訓練並且還獲得專科醫師執照"},{"start":60.9,"end":77.499,"text":"更直接在台大有更整的行為另外一位陳教授他也是我們婦產科醫學會的前任理事長他傳出對多名學生研究生性騷擾台大醫院主動的啟動調查經性評會確認屬實最終解聘該名醫師"},{"start":81.744,"end":108.12,"text":"那前兩週新聞比較大的是一位正性的醫師涉嫌下藥還有性侵多名女性2025年出遭起訴後棄保潛逃現在成為了通緝犯這些醫師的共通點在於就算是已經進入司法程序或者是有正式的行政調查報告他們卻持續執行臨床的業務並且沒有被送懲戒"},{"start":109.601,"end":122.672,"text":"為什麼明明醫師法裡面有懲戒的制度可是面臨這些狼藝的問題始終沒有辦法給予合理的處罰問題就在於現在的條文不夠明確這邊我先列出醫師法第25條的規定"},{"start":124.554,"end":152.055,"text":"他有兩個機關可以一副懲戒一個是醫師公會一個是主管機關那下列業務上有重大重複發生過失利用業務機會之犯罪行為經判刑確立屬醫療必要的過度用藥或治療行為四執行業務違背了醫學倫理這期款只要是符合其中一項都可以移送可是問題在於過去大家很保守"},{"start":152.916,"end":173.963,"text":"只有在第二款的規定才敢去送移送那還有這兩個機關會互相推卸責任所以一個案件從發生起訴到判刑甚至有的是過了一審二審好幾年最終都不知道看了多少病人了很多女性的病患是處於風險之中的這是一個超大的制度性問題"},{"start":175.163,"end":198.129,"text":"那所以未還委員會針對這個從1月去年12月開始就不斷的質詢也有辦了專報等等的大家會對於這樣事件極度的震驚啊就連林靜儀的次長在回應我們的說法都說早就可以用違反醫療倫理這一款去移送可是還是沒有人敢這樣做所以我在委員會有提出一個臨時提案是要求呢"},{"start":199.209,"end":227.8,"text":"這個衛福部可以盡速就違反醫學倫理的內容內涵來做出函釋未來只要是性騷或是性侵這樣子的發生行政調查確立根本就不需要等刑事判決就屬於違反醫療倫理並且希望主管機關也就是衛福部趕快把這個函釋做出來公告上網讓全部人都可以參考但因為您是大法官提名人現在這些被行政調查以後"},{"start":228.72,"end":257.512,"text":"他們是因為矚目案件所以經過立法委員的質詢才被移送懲戒的狼藝還有很多是在台灣各個角落可能有其他的被害人加害人還躲在陰影中未來這些狼藝有可能一路會上訴到申請釋憲所以您的見解對我們來說格外的重要他們會來跟您吵他們必須是符合第二款才可以被送懲戒這邊要請問您的見解如何"},{"start":259.324,"end":280.949,"text":"謝謝委員的提問如果我印象記得沒錯的話有關於醫師的懲戒其實在醫師法裡面有兩個途徑一個是委員所提出來的25條另外好像我如果記得沒錯的話另外在30幾條還有一個是主管機關本來就是依職權就可以停止他醫師的業務的執行"},{"start":282.608,"end":299.034,"text":"那這個案子呢如果委員有興趣可以去參考當時候在台中因為我在台中書院會也處理過一個那個中醫師摻雜很多奇怪的藥讓一個那個甚至好像是前副議長的兒子死亡的那個案子那個案子的爭執就是說"},{"start":300.775,"end":313.353,"text":"醫事公會沒有移送但是我們台中市衛生局主管機關運用抱歉我現在忘了不是25條是後面的條文30幾條條文主管機關他本來就可以依職權去停職"},{"start":315.213,"end":343.262,"text":"他没有办法去让他的医师因为惩戒的手段很多他没有办法让他丧失医师的资格证书但是他可以暂时让他业务他可以停止他执行比如说一年三年所以假设是现在这个问题的话我觉得不一定因为你要医师惩戒的话要送到那个医师惩戒委员会那医师惩戒委员会又耗时耗力啊那我觉得这个方式不一定是正确的反而是应该在"},{"start":345.104,"end":356.191,"text":"醫療主管機關自己本身可以依職權去做懲處的時候其實就可以了因為在這裡我想我不曉得委員最後的想法是說要讓他喪失職業資格廢止醫師證書還是暫時讓他這個是懲戒委員會的職責"},{"start":363.036,"end":389.016,"text":"是不是讓他只要暫時停止業務的執行因為主管機關能做的跟醫師懲戒委員會能做的不太一樣我剛講的廢止這個證書然後廢止醫師資格這個主管機關不能做這個一定要懲戒委員會然後最後要法院但是如果只是要讓他暫時停止業務的執行因為這樣就可以保護後續的患者"},{"start":389.696,"end":415.69,"text":"那我如果記得沒錯的話主管機關就可以做我會再去調查但衛福部至今還沒有提出方法要如何讓他們暫時停職那應該是縣市主管機關現在因為有一些還在護航的人會覺得說主要是因為無罪推定的原則所以我們不應該先行移送可是這樣反而傷害了很多受害者的身心靈教授是公法專家"},{"start":416.59,"end":433.671,"text":"你應該會知道說無罪推定是刑事訴訟的基本原則但是他不絕對排除行政機關基於職業監理進行懲戒因此依據醫學倫理規範病患申訴調查報告或是第三方鑑定若能確定行為屬實"},{"start":435.032,"end":449.093,"text":"即使未定罪也可以啟動懲戒程序不違憲這是現在很多衛航委員會林靜儀次長還有被害人被害人家屬等等的共識我只是想確認大法官提名人是不是也這樣子的認為"},{"start":450.819,"end":473.563,"text":"有關於剛剛委員所講的這個無罪推定當然基本上那個是刑法的基本原則那同樣的行政法也是不過他有另外規定我舉一個例子給委員做參考在我們地方制度法裡面對於這個貪污圖利的縣市首長一審有罪就可以停止"},{"start":474.212,"end":490.812,"text":"不用等到他三審確定他主要的理由就是說縣市長他是四年的任期你等確定判決他都已經離職了 卸職了沒有處罰的必要所以他有他的正當理由在他還沒有確定判決之前就可以停他的職務那醫師的"},{"start":493.695,"end":520.728,"text":"方式我想應該看他有什麼樣的正當理由比如說保護病患而且他的罪行重大保護病患以至於有必要是不是調查就可以或者要至少等一審我想這個是立法委員的職權可以去斟酌但是如果是一般的醫師的話另外可以參考的就是教師法"},{"start":521.388,"end":537.095,"text":"就不是任教師這個等一下我們會提到不過我謝謝蕭教授未來如果有機會的話您可以站在保護這些受害者的公平正義的這方面因為未來一定會遇到這樣子的事件的機會在下一個問題"},{"start":539.934,"end":564.363,"text":"其實也是有關醫療的公法議題這個問題就是到底要不要把狼醫的資訊公佈在一個平台或是網站上有沒有涉及他們的個人隱私權因為胃黃委員會從今年的1月部長他表示說可以評估這樣子做到7月行政效率非常的差最大的問題就是卡在一個地方我播一段影片給您看"},{"start":568.157,"end":576.36,"text":"合格醫師查詢系統是一個沒有辦法查詢的系統主席很不好意思我只是說因為這一路的規劃都有參與所以我跟您報告說他初始的本醫師這樣設計對您剛講的這個部分我們做一下確認在各自法授權的範圍內可不可完全的法務部參事來"},{"start":588.444,"end":601.86,"text":"各支法哪一條阻卻了醫療法授予的醫師到底有沒有執照要被查詢可被查詢各支法哪一條阻卻了我們要要問衛福部這個醫生到底有醫生的跡象是不是合格的醫生沒有各支法會阻卻這一種行為嗎"},{"start":606.065,"end":626.725,"text":"你不敢說,以前是法務部,現在我想問國發會,國發會有人來嗎?現在是怎樣?這麼簡單的問題,整個政府沒辦的人,我就停?這麼簡單的問題,這麼做到保釣處長、副書長沒辦的人,我就回答?你現在是在爭笑喔?八位我想那個,前面以前是這樣子啦齁,那我想未來我們一定來齁,把他處理好喔這句話我已經聽過齁,很久很久很久了會啦,我已經認真做案什麼認真做案,你不要再這樣了,喔"},{"start":627.425,"end":648.021,"text":"主席,我不曉得怎麼諮詢了,我不能用火冒三丈這四個字來形容我此時的狀況我們拍個專報啦什麼專報,大家都親在公共,什麼都不知道,還說白菜,又搞不清楚我告訴你,我們立法院大家都聽過,都聽得很清楚,只有你搞不清楚這樣你就保證,保證我來做,保證叫我們的議事人員來做沒有搞不清楚"},{"start":648.921,"end":662.773,"text":"我們很清楚好,那你告訴我你告訴我你的醫事查詢系統可以查到每一個醫生都是不是合法有職照的嗎?不是大聲大聲就好你那個阿孔克力你搞不清楚你的系統根本就是有問題你聽不清楚"},{"start":664.635,"end":675.142,"text":"現在是怎樣 自己搞不清楚 你說法人聽不清楚我們很清楚啊 哪裡很清楚以前就因為公司法的問題 如果大家在乎我們當然來檢討這樣可以嗎對啊 我就是問你啊 我就是問你檢討什麼 侮辱什麼你現在是在做什麼 你現在是在"},{"start":680.605,"end":686.948,"text":"大法官提名 您可以評論一下他們卡關卡在什麼地方嗎醫師的情形我不是很清楚不過就學校來講學校本來在聘任老師的時候就有一個"},{"start":709.826,"end":732.083,"text":"藍絲的查詢系統這教育部有提供只是說這個藍絲的查詢系統是人事室他要去負責查詢內部使用不是一般人民所以假設說要開放的話我覺得至少醫院可以有這個類似我們學校裡面人事室這種查詢系統應該是沒有什麼特別的問題"},{"start":732.802,"end":753.834,"text":"至於一般人民那可能就是另外的考慮我現在知道的就是其實是有狼屍的查詢系統這件事情在我們衛黃委員會已經從去年12月炒到現在無數的委員質詢都卡在這個各自法各自法的問題那我們來看一下左邊是醫師查詢系統右邊是律師"},{"start":754.975,"end":775.861,"text":"那這個是我本人的登錄啦你可以看到很簡單的資料大概性別、科別、職業地點等等的那您是法界人士您一定也知道像是律師法務部會有職業律師查詢平台而且有兩個平台喔第一個平台是查你有沒有合法的執照第二個平台是查你是否有被懲戒過還有這個懲戒的內容是什麼"},{"start":777.842,"end":806.924,"text":"那律師的懲戒我們要注意不一定是涉及刑責判刑確定才會被懲戒對吧違反律師倫理就有可能被懲戒而且會把這個違反律師倫理詳細的內容列在上面因為律師法有規定律師法第46條是2020年後行政修正的懲戒法院應該將懲戒的決議送達受懲戒人律師公會還有主管機關並且公告之"},{"start":808.766,"end":836.588,"text":"醫師更複雜因為醫師對於在職業的過程中患者的身體的接觸是比其他職業多的吧這個您承認吧所以你會不會覺得相對於這個律師查詢系統我們的醫師查詢系統稍顯不足呢是稍顯不足還是大大不足人民應該有權選擇自己所希望的醫師跟律師嘛政府應該有必要提供充分的資訊讓人民去做選擇"},{"start":839.093,"end":862.863,"text":"如果就我的接觸範圍來講因為老師對一個人的影響也很大所以我想不管是家長也好同學也好基本上都不希望有老師在學校所以老師有他自己的查詢系統可是我們的查詢系統可能不像律師那麼樣的公開跟周延但是至少有啦"},{"start":863.663,"end":884.164,"text":"那律師因為他涉及到人民的訴訟權的保障還有他司法權益而且他的這個律師的職業也影響到很重大的公共利益我覺得這樣公開是正確的那至於醫師因為我比較少去看醫師他也涉及到人民的身體自主身體安全涉及到這個"},{"start":886.704,"end":907.88,"text":"都是比較後半段但是就現在比較通盛行的醫療人權來講我有自主權嘛我希望選擇一個我認為適當的醫生嘛那我當然也除了這個剛剛委員所提供的這些資料之外我當然除了去打聽他是不是開刀我會開刀之外我當然也希望"},{"start":908.48,"end":935.771,"text":"如果他有什麼樣不適宜的讓我知道我覺得這是作為一個現代的人享受醫療人權一個基本的一個立場那這邊就是問到憲法保障隱私權因為釋字603號有指出在重大公共利益或是保障他人權益情況下得在法律明文授予合理限制所以聽起來大法官提名人您認為狼醫的懲戒資訊涉及重大公共利益"},{"start":936.451,"end":954.305,"text":"比如說病患的安全醫療的信賴災犯的風險防治即使屬於個人隱私也可以在比例原則下受到限制與公開嗎剛剛您的論點是這樣是嗎同意嗎對但是公開的方式公開的範圍這個當然立法者可以去做限制跟檢討好"},{"start":955.973,"end":985.243,"text":"因為這些狼藝的護航者他們可能會不同意未來你也是會遇到他們來打憲法訴訟說他們不願意被公開那我舉這一兩年的例子是上一張這一兩年的例子在健保資料案中憲法法庭是採取中度審查因為健保資料涉及個人病史屬於高度敏感的資訊如果連健保資料這麼私密的資訊憲法法庭都只是採中度審查那麼"},{"start":986.303,"end":1009.432,"text":"醫師或是教師是攸關公共安全病患還有後備醫師學生們的身體健康信賴保障然後因違反職業倫理 數級形式等等被懲戒揭露的對象並非社會任意公眾而是可能被服務的對象但是從大法官提名人的口中其實可能被服務的對象幾乎是全民了啦"},{"start":1010.012,"end":1028.04,"text":"是不是您未來如果遇到這樣子的憲法訴訟您會認為應該可以採取較寬鬆的審查標準呢我們一般這個是每個國家的審查方式都不一樣那以美國方式來講常常會用低度中度跟高度審查"},{"start":1029.281,"end":1049.716,"text":"那我我留學德國我們德國沒有沒有這一套那基本上就是依照憲法23條的規定去去審查他的一個合憲性與否那當然這裡面最重要的就是利益的權衡那剛委員講的就是說站在國民健康以國民健康這個做一個標準化來講的話這應該是我們"},{"start":1052.219,"end":1060.892,"text":"追求很高的公共利益隱私權當然是個人非常重要的利益那兩個人在權衡之間當然我們不能說權有跟權無啦"},{"start":1061.862,"end":1085.504,"text":"我會比較贊成要公開但是公開的方法限制跟時間這個可以討論謝謝好那這邊我們就是要跟你討論這個這是您剛一再提到的兒少平台是公開的教育部有亡羊補牢雖然難以徹底的解決任用狼獅的疑慮可是至少跨出了一大步現在醫師法沒有明文強制公告懲戒的規定但是"},{"start":1087.025,"end":1113.647,"text":"實務上各縣市的衛生局還有醫師公會是會公告懲戒的資料的那既然這些這個主管機關都已經直接公告了您認為可不可以直接建設平台了因為這個是衛福部部長從1月到現在遇到的問題就是說你的意思就是說建一個平台然後直接對就是你一直在講的啊跟教師類似的平台啊"},{"start":1114.918,"end":1133.5,"text":"指引到其他的工會去看嗎 還是怎麼樣不是 他現在要建立狼藝平台就類似像律師一樣他如果有接受到懲戒 他是可以被查出來的如果懲戒是一個公開資料是政府資訊公開資料 那當然沒問題啊他是現在主管機關的公開資料"},{"start":1134.761,"end":1153.988,"text":"比如說我的縣市衛生局或者是醫師公會我有懲戒委員會開完了有結果了他們是會把他公告出來的而且我也在我當過醫師懲戒委員會的委員我記得他們如果那個地方夠大的話因為公報大部分都只有這個"},{"start":1156.443,"end":1173.089,"text":"這個中央部會才有但是大的直轄市政府他們也有自己的公報那公報上面就會有那個懲戒的那個但是他沒有很仔細啊他可能沒有很多事實他只是告訴你說某某醫生因為為了什麼被懲戒比如說去上課幾天"},{"start":1174.484,"end":1202.804,"text":"然後他停業幾天這個有但是事實跟理由可能所以這邊很關鍵的許多委員他們希望因為他們可能有獲得選民的陳情等等他們希望可以建置一個完整的平台查詢平台就跟教師律師一樣就想請問大法官提名人這一點您是否認同因為這個教師基本上是由教育部來全權主管不管是大學或中小學"},{"start":1203.604,"end":1221.621,"text":"那醫師的部分我比較不清楚,因為中央我不清楚好,謝謝陳經理委員詢問,也謝謝被提名的蕭教授的說明,謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":333,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（10時36分）主席，你好，我想請蕭教授，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授說明。"],["蕭文生被提名人：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：蕭教授你好，我自我介紹一下，我的背景是醫師，所以今天我會跟您討論一些醫師管理法律的問題。"],["蕭文生被提名人：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們最近其實有一些社會矚目案件，我不知道你有沒有注意到，但是有三位臺大婦產科醫師、還有一位骨科醫師涉入性侵或者是性騷等等的事件，我會先從婦產科開始談起，畢竟這個族群是最容易接觸到女性病患的族群，我要背景介紹一下，臺大發生了三起婦產科教授、主治醫師，還有住院醫師性侵或性騷的案件，有一位黃姓的住院醫師對女性病患猥褻、性侵，經一審的判處有罪，刑期三年，目前仍可上訴，不過在案發之後，黃醫師完成了住院醫師訓練，並且還獲得專科醫師執照，更直接在臺大有跟診的行為。另外一位陳教授，他也是我們婦產科醫學會的前任理事長，他傳出對多名學生、研究生性騷擾，臺大醫院主動啟動調查，經性平會確認屬實，最終解聘該名醫師。前兩週新聞比較大的是一位鄭姓的醫師涉嫌下藥，還有性侵多名女性，2025年初遭起訴後棄保潛逃，現在成為通緝犯。這些醫師的共通點在於就算是已經進入司法程序或者是有正式的行政調查報告，他們卻持續執行臨床的業務並且沒有被送懲戒。","為什麼明明醫師法裡面有懲戒的制度，可是面臨這些狼醫的問題，始終沒有辦法給予合理的處罰？問題就在於現在的條文不夠明確。這邊我先列出醫師法第二十五條的規定，它有兩個機關可以移付懲戒，一個是醫師公會，一個是主管機關，下列：「一、業務上重大或重複發生過失行為。二、利用業務機會之犯罪行為，經判刑確定。三、非屬醫療必要之過度用藥或治療行為。四、執行業務違背醫學倫理。」這幾款只要是符合其中一項都可以移送，可是問題在於過去大家很保守，只有在第二款的規定才敢去移送。還有，這兩個機關會互相推卸責任，所以一個案件從發生、起訴到判刑，甚至有的是過了一審、二審好幾年，最終都不知道看了多少病人了，很多女性的病患是處於風險之中的，這是一個超大的制度性問題，所以衛環委員會針對這個從1月開始就有不斷的質詢，也有辦了專報等等的，大家對於這樣的事件極度震驚，就連林靜儀次長在回應我們的說法時都說早就可以用違反醫療倫理這一款去移送，可是還是沒有人敢這樣做，所以我在委員會有提出臨時提案，要求衛福部儘速就違反醫學倫理的內涵做出函釋，未來只要性騷或是性侵這樣子的案件發生後行政調查確立，根本不需要等刑事判決，就屬於違反醫療倫理，並且希望主管機關衛福部趕快把這個函釋做出來公告上網，讓全部的人都可以參考。因為您是大法官被提名人，現在這些人被行政調查以後，他們因為是矚目案件，所以經過立法委員的質詢才被移送懲戒的狼醫，還有很多是在臺灣各個角落，可能有其他的被害人、加害人還躲在陰影中，未來這些狼醫有可能會一路上訴到聲請釋憲，所以您的見解對我們來說格外的重要，他們會來跟您吵他們必須符合第二款才可以被送懲戒，在此要請問您的見解如何？"],["蕭文生被提名人：謝謝委員的提問，如果我印象記得沒錯的話，有關於醫師的懲戒，其實在醫師法裡面有兩個途徑，一個是委員所提出來的第二十五條，我如果記得沒錯的話，另外在第三十幾條或第四十幾條，還有一個是主管機關本來就可以依職權停止其醫師業務的執行。這個案子如果委員有興趣，可以去參考當時候在臺中發生的一個案子，因為我在臺中訴願會也處理過一個中醫師摻雜很多奇怪的藥，甚至好像是前副議長的兒子死亡的案子，那個案子的爭執就是醫師公會沒有移送，但是主管機關臺中市衛生局運用後面第三十幾條的條文，也就是主管機關本來就可以依職權去停止其業務的執行，因為懲戒的手段很多，雖然它沒有辦法讓他喪失醫師的資格證書，但是它可以暫時讓他的業務停止執行，譬如一年或三年，所以假設是現在這個問題的話，我覺得不一定……因為要懲戒的話，要送到醫師懲戒委員會，而移送醫師懲戒委員會耗時又耗力，所以我覺得這個方式不一定是正確的，反而應該是在醫療主管機關本身可以依職權去做懲處的時候，其實就可以了。因為我不曉得委員最後的想法是要讓他喪失執業資格、廢止醫師證書，還是暫時讓他……"],["陳委員菁徽：並不是，這是懲戒委員會的職責。"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，我是說是不是只要讓他暫時停止業務的執行？因為主管機關能做的跟醫師懲戒委員會能做的不太一樣，我剛剛講的廢止醫師證書、廢止醫師資格，這個主管機關不能做，這一定要送懲戒委員會，然後最後要送到法院，但如果只是要讓他暫時停止業務的執行，因為這樣就可以保護後續的患者，如果我記得沒錯的話，這個主管機關就可以做。"],["陳委員菁徽：我會再去調查，但衛福部至今還沒有提出方法要如何讓他們暫時停止。"],["蕭文生被提名人：那應該是縣市主管機關。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在有一些還在護航的人會覺得因為無罪推定的原則，所以我們不應該先行移送，可是這樣反而傷害了很多受害者的身心靈。教授是公法專家，你應該知道無罪推定是刑事訴訟的基本原則，但是它不絕對排除行政機關基於職業監理進行懲戒，因此依據醫學倫理規範，病患申訴、調查報告或是第三方鑑定，若能確定行為屬實，即使未定罪，也可以啟動懲戒程序不違憲。這是現在很多衛環委員會委員、林靜儀次長、被害人及被害人家屬等等的共識，我只是想確認大法官被提名人是不是也這樣子認為？"],["蕭文生被提名人：有關於剛剛委員所講的無罪推定，當然基本上那是刑法的基本原則，同樣的行政罰也是，不過它有例外規定，我舉一個例子給委員做參考，在地方制度法裡面，對於貪污、圖利的縣市首長，一審有罪就可以停職，不用等到三審確定，主要的理由在於縣市長是四年的任期，如果要等確定判決，他都已經離職、卸職了，沒有處罰的必要，所以它有它的正當理由，在他還沒有確定判決之前，就可以停止他的職務。那醫師的方式，我想應該要看他有什麼樣的正當理由，比如說保護病患，而且他的罪行重大，保護病患以至於有必要，是不是調查就可以，或者至少要等一審，我想這個是立法委員的職權可以去斟酌，但如果是一般醫師的話，另外可以參考的就是教師法，就是關於不適任教師的部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個等一下我們會提到，不過我謝謝蕭教授，未來如果有機會的話，您可以站在保護這些受害者公平正義的這一方，因為未來一定會遇到這樣釋憲的機會。"],["蕭文生被提名人：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：再下一個問題，其實也是有關醫療的公法議題，這個問題就是到底要不要把狼醫的資訊公布在一個平臺或是網站上，有沒有涉及他們的個人隱私權？因為衛環委員會從今年1月開始，包括部長有表示可以評估來這樣子做；到了7月，行政效率仍是非常得差，最大的問題就是卡在一個地方，我播一段影片給您看。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：大法官提名人，您可以評論一下他們卡關卡在什麼地方嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：醫師的情形我不是很清楚，不過就學校來講，學校本來在聘任老師的時候就有一個狼師的查詢系統，教育部有提供，只是這個狼師查詢系統是人事室要負責去查詢的。"],["陳委員菁徽：內部使用？"],["蕭文生被提名人：對！對！不是一般人民，所以假設要開放的話，我覺得至少醫院可以有類似我們學校裡面人事室的這種查詢系統，應該是沒有什麼特別的問題；至於一般人民，可能就是另外的考慮，我現在知道的就是，其實是有狼師的查詢系統。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這件事情我們衛環委員會已經從去年12月吵到現在，無數的委員提出質詢，都卡在個資法的問題。我們來看一下，左邊是醫事查詢系統，右邊是律師的部分，這個是我本人的登錄，你可以看到一些很簡單的資料，包括性別、科別、職業、地點等等，您是法界人士，你一定也知道像是律師，法務部會有執業律師查詢平臺，而且這有兩個平臺，第一個平臺是查你有沒有合法的執照……"],["蕭文生被提名人：有。"],["陳委員菁徽：第二個平臺是查你是否有被懲戒過，還有這個懲戒的內容是什麼。"],["蕭文生被提名人：有。"],["陳委員菁徽：關於律師的懲戒，我們要注意的是，不一定是涉及刑責、判刑確定的才會被懲戒，對吧？"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：違反律師倫理者就有可能被懲戒，而且會把這個違反律師倫理的詳細內容列在上面。因為2020年後新增修正的律師法有規定，懲戒委員會應將懲戒決議送達受懲戒人、律師公會及主管機關並公告之。醫師更複雜，因為醫師在執業過程中對患者的身體接觸比其他職業多，這個您承認吧？"],["蕭文生被提名人：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你會不會覺得，相對於律師查詢系統，我們的醫師查詢系統稍顯不足，甚至不是稍顯不足，而是大大不足？"],["蕭文生被提名人：人民應該有權選擇自己所希望的醫師跟律師，政府應該有必要提供充分的資訊讓人民去做選擇，如果……"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！所以您剛剛講的……"],["蕭文生被提名人：就我的接觸範圍來講，因為老師對一個人的影響也很大，不管是家長也好、同學也好，基本上都不希望有狼師在學校，所以狼師有他自己的查詢系統，可是我們的查詢系統可能不像律師那麼公開跟周延，但是至少有啦！律師因為他涉及人民訴訟權和司法權益的保障，而且律師這個職業也影響到很重大的公共利益，我覺得這樣公開是正確的，至於醫師，因為我比較少……"],["陳委員菁徽：他也涉及人民的身體自主……"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，醫師當然涉及……"],["陳委員菁徽：身體安全啊！"],["蕭文生被提名人：這個都是比較後半段，但是就現在比較盛行的醫療人權來講，我有自主權嘛！我希望選擇一個我認為適當的醫生，除了剛剛委員所提供的這些資料之外，我除了去打聽他是不是很會開刀之外，當然也希望如果他有什麼樣不適宜的，可以讓我知道，我覺得這是做為一個現代人享受醫療人權的基本立場。"],["陳委員菁徽：憲法保障隱私權，但是釋字第603號解釋指出，在重大公共利益或是保障他人權益情況下，得在法律明文予以合理限制。聽起來大法官被提名人您認為狼醫的懲戒資訊涉及重大公共利益，比如說病患的安全、醫療的信賴、再犯的風險防制，即使屬於個人隱私，也可以在比例原則下受到限制與公開嗎？剛剛您的論點是這樣嗎？您同意嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，但是公開的方式、公開的範圍，立法者當然可以去做限制跟檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為這些狼醫的護航者可能會不同意，未來你也會遇到他們來打憲法訴訟，說他們不願意被公開。我舉這一、兩年的例子，在健保資料案中，憲法法庭是採取中度審查，因為健保資料涉及個人病史，屬於高度敏感的資訊。如果連健保資料這麼私密的資訊，憲法法庭都只是採中度審查，那麼醫師或教師是攸關公共安全、病患還有後輩醫師、學生們的身體健康、信賴保障，若因違反職業倫理、觸及刑事等等被懲戒，揭露對象並非社會任意公眾，而是可能被服務的對象，其實可能被服務的對象幾乎是全民了啦！但是從大法官被提名人的口中，是不是您未來如果遇到這樣子的憲法訴訟，會認為應該可以採取較寬鬆的審查標準呢？"],["蕭文生被提名人：每個國家的審查方式都不一樣，以美國的方式來講，常常會用低度、中度跟高度審查來區分，我留學德國，德國沒有這一套。基本上就是依照憲法第二十三條的規定去審查它合憲與否，當然這裡面最重要的就是利益的權衡，剛剛委員講的就是，站在國民健康的立場，以國民健康做為標準來講的話，這應該是我們追求的很高的公共利益。隱私權當然是個人非常重要的利益，兩者在權衡之間，我們不能說全有或全無，我會比較贊成要公開，但是公開的方法、限制跟時間是可以討論的。謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊我們就是要跟您討論，這是您剛剛一再提到的，兒少平臺是公開的，教育部有亡羊補牢，雖然難以澈底解決任用狼師的疑慮，可是至少跨出了一大步。現在醫師法沒有明文強制公告懲戒的規定，但是實務上各縣市衛生局還有醫師公會是會公告懲戒資料的，既然這些主管機關都已經直接公告了，您認為可不可以直接建設平臺了？這個是衛福部部長從1月到現在遇到的問題。"],["蕭文生被提名人：你的意思是建一個平臺，然後直接……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，就是你一直在講的，跟教師類似的平臺。"],["蕭文生被提名人：指引到其他的公會去看嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["陳委員菁徽：不是，他現在要建立狼醫平臺，就類似像律師一樣，他如果有接受到懲戒，他是可以被查出來的。"],["蕭文生被提名人：如果懲戒是一個公開資料、是政府資訊公開資料，那當然沒問題，這甚至……"],["陳委員菁徽：這是現在主管機關的公開資料，比如縣市衛生局或者是醫師公會，懲戒委員會開完了、有結果了，他們是會把他公告出來。"],["蕭文生被提名人：我當過醫師懲戒委員會的委員，我記得他們……如果那個地方夠大的話，因為公報大部分都只有中央部會才有，但是大的直轄市政府也有自己的公報，那公報上面就會有懲戒的內容，但是沒有很仔細，它可能沒有很多事實，它只是告訴你：某某醫生因為違反什麼被懲戒，去上課幾天、停業幾天。這個有，但是事實跟理由可能……但那個主文有。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以這邊很關鍵，許多委員可能因為獲得選民的陳情等等，他們希望可以建置一個完整的查詢平臺，就跟教師、律師一樣。因此想請問大法官提名人，這一點您是否認同？"],["蕭文生被提名人：教師基本上是由教育部全權主管，不管是大學或中小學；醫師的部分我比較不清楚，因為中央我不清楚，但是我知道地方各縣市政府有自己的平臺，至於要不要把它聯合起來，這可能就是中央跟地方要合作，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員詢問，也謝謝被提名人蕭教授的說明。","接下來請登記第7號本院何欣純委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","麥玉珍","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","賴惠員","陳菁徽","何欣純","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳素月","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","徐欣瑩","張雅琳","蘇清泉","林憶君","林楚茵","陳永康","王美惠"],"page_start":365,"meetingDate":["2025-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00006","1146501_00007","1146501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00004"}}}