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\"沒有設例外規定也就是說我們所有的程序的規定都是要讓組織能夠運作我們不要定一個程序組織沒有辦法運作如果沒有辦法運作就是癱瘓憲法法庭當這個組織沒有辦法運作憲法法庭沒有辦法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 753.2, \"end\": 753.3, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 753.3, \"end\": 753.781, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 753.781, \"end\": 754.101, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 754.101, \"end\": 754.562, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 754.562, \"end\": 754.742, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 754.742, \"end\": 754.842, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 754.842, \"end\": 755.022, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 755.022, \"end\": 755.523, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 755.523, \"end\": 755.883, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 755.883, \"end\": 756.123, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 756.123, \"end\": 756.324, \"score\": 0.999}, 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\"start\": 1225.997, \"end\": 1226.138, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 1226.138, \"end\": 1226.258, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1226.258, \"end\": 1226.599, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"蕭\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 1226.599, \"end\": 1226.719, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"森\", \"start\": 1226.719, \"end\": 1226.9, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 1226.9, \"end\": 1227.161, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"授\", \"start\": 1227.161, \"end\": 1227.462, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1227.462, \"end\": 1227.482, \"score\": 0.985}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,177 --> 00:00:05,900\n好謝謝院長我們請蕭教授再請被提名的蕭教授說明\n\n2\n00:00:13,945 --> 00:00:37,259\n蕭教授好我爬出了一下你個人的資料所以蕭教授多年來投身公法學術的研究也為台灣培育了很多的法律人才因為我知道你在中正大學任教於30年我剛剛又稍微看了一下你的經歷除了教學研究工作之外你有擔任過行政職而且在\n\n3\n00:00:38,199 --> 00:00:55,731\n考試院內政部跟地方政府包括台中市、彰化縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣等等都有擔任書院委員會的委員也擔任過交通部的法規委員會的委員等等我要強調的是看起來你是一個除了研究、學術、教學\n\n4\n00:00:58,292 --> 00:01:17,807\n之外還有實務經驗那這一點我認為對於大法官未來的職務非常重要為什麼因為呢大法官呢不僅僅是一個獨立的一個憲法的守護者那我們更期待國人也更期待大法官更貼近人民而且能夠與時俱進\n\n5\n00:01:19,588 --> 00:01:44,375\n所以希望透過今天的詢答能夠了解您如何將您過去的這些學歷經歷背景轉化為未來可以捍衛人民權益的具體作為所以今天我想請教您認為在憲法法庭作為憲政民主跟人權的守護者如何在民意的期待跟憲法原則之間取得一個平衡呢蕭教授\n\n6\n00:01:47,274 --> 00:01:51,442\n首先我想如果作為一個大法官他最主要的工作就是解釋憲法\n\n7\n00:01:52,709 --> 00:02:14,999\n解釋憲法的依據就是我們憲法本文跟政修條文還有憲政慣例還有歷來大法官跟憲法法庭的解釋那這個是我主要的依據至於剛剛委員所講的民意或是輿論我想作為一個人一定會受這些影響這個沒有問題我們也不要說很清高就是說不行我絕對不會受影響但是這些影響應該只是一個\n\n8\n00:02:16,198 --> 00:02:30,135\n輔助性的決定性的工具呢還是在這些客觀的價值跟法律秩序我從不否認就是說一個人的出生甚至一個人的這個教育背景當然會有特定的想法\n\n9\n00:02:31,169 --> 00:02:47,720\n一個人如果沒有特定的想法我想就不適合當作是一個正常的國民或是現代人所以蕭教授我可以這樣解讀嗎因為你在回覆本黨團的書面資料裡面有提到這個個人的價值理念民意跟社會輿論\n\n10\n00:02:48,801 --> 00:03:05,046\n是影響判決的可能因素之一而且個人價值理念與民意及社會輿論會隨著個人成長與時代發展而有所改變這是你的回答剛剛你的回答是蠻符合的\n\n11\n00:03:05,526 --> 00:03:24,640\n所以我想包括我在內國人期待的大法官不僅僅是一位堅定的憲法守護者更是一位能夠與時俱進理解人民情感了解社會跟民主脈動的憲法溝通者這樣子的論述這樣的基調你同意嗎我贊成\n\n12\n00:03:25,180 --> 00:03:49,841\n你贊成吧是不是所以我們期許如果人事統一權通過之後你獲選為大法官那您未來可能會受理到的人民申請的事先案裡面我希望能夠本於這樣子的一個態度作為一個憲法的守護者也能夠作為一個憲法的溝通者這是我們大家的期許那接下來我就要請教你了好\n\n13\n00:03:51,042 --> 00:04:13,298\n我們從數據上看到這三年來憲法法庭受理並且做成裁判的案件中有75%是來自人民的申請而這些案件是人民窮盡所有法院審計救濟管道之後對國家跟司法的最後一道的希望那還有期盼也因此大法官每一次的釋憲都會實實切切影響到人民權利的保障所以國人\n\n14\n00:04:19,063 --> 00:04:37,915\n對司法、對大法官有很深切的期待但是我想請教一下蕭教授你看過一齣雖然叫戲劇但是卻是一個名作而且很多國人看過之後都非常有感受一齣戲叫做《我們與惡的距離》你有看過這一齣戲嗎\n\n15\n00:04:39,594 --> 00:04:42,836\n我為什麼會提起這一齣戲?這一齣戲引起國人很大的共鳴而且也引起了很多的討論在這個討論裡面\n\n16\n00:05:00,808 --> 00:05:25,521\n大部分的國人都會有一個想法包括我這幾年來在外面跟人民接觸跟基層接觸大家都會說為什麼司法跟人民的距離這麼遠教授你你認為呢我想司法跟人民的距離如果是要這個委員所講的以及很多的調查報告\n\n17\n00:05:26,499 --> 00:05:46,108\n大概有下面三個原因第一個原因就是說法律講話太不直接所以有所謂的法律白話文運動可是我覺得白話文越講好像也效果不好那我就會回去想就是說很多專利我們也看不懂啊為什麼專利不用白話文化為什麼法律要白話文化\n\n18\n00:05:47,042 --> 00:06:06,497\n因為關係到人民的權利所以這部份我們要繼續努力的去加強而且理解司法對於人民的保障然後第二個就是我們傳統的講法我用台語講一心中盤二心村盤三心地下彌生\n\n19\n00:06:07,998 --> 00:06:27,097\n那這個我相信在以前的話是沒問題但是就我個人而言我接觸的同學來講因為現在資訊這麼發達這個我想不敢說沒有但是應該在逐漸減少中那我想第三個大概是最大的問題因為我們這個訴訟一定有勝敗\n\n20\n00:06:30,339 --> 00:06:59,448\n那在台灣理論上勝的人要高興啊敗的人要不高興可是假設照我們的民調來講司法應該要有50%啊因為贏的人會高興啊可是看起來都是二三十三四十那表示什麼輸的人不高興贏的人也沒有很高興那到底這個問題在哪裡呢我想最主要的理由應該是這個啦那到底為什麼輸的人一定不是不高興的我覺得這個沒問題但是為什麼贏的人\n\n21\n00:07:00,388 --> 00:07:14,470\n還是一樣不高興呢我個人是這樣覺得啦就是說可能大家在對於法院的判決上面其實輸贏是一件事情另外一件事情以中南部的人來講就是我服不服氣啦\n\n22\n00:07:15,595 --> 00:07:31,681\n有的人輸了很服氣有的人贏了不服氣所以我個人覺得說最主要的應該是我們法院在判決理由檢察官在起訴不起訴的理由裡面要做非常完整適度的說明\n\n23\n00:07:32,722 --> 00:07:45,900\n那這個為什麼會有缺陷呢其實我常常跟老百姓聊天他們就說法官為什麼會那麼簡單的就這樣寫我會跟他們講說你來這裡你一輩子才來一次啊他們每天都來啊\n\n24\n00:07:48,234 --> 00:08:03,201\n你一輩子只有一個案件可是他們一天要做30個一年要做所以你講到這一個部分有關司法裡面的負擔的問題不是負擔的問題而是說我們希望大家互相的去體諒\n\n25\n00:08:04,722 --> 00:08:19,438\n人民要體諒但是責任要在司法系統我們要盡一切的所能把可能的理由或者就說人民的主張尤其我在溯源會的時候我們一向主張人民有什麼主張我們要一個一個回\n\n26\n00:08:20,509 --> 00:08:49,779\n就是說就算他的主張非常不合理你還是要用簡單的幾句話去交代有時候人民明明知道自己是錯了可是他要爭一口氣在台灣有很多這樣的人民但是你只要跟他講說你錯在哪裡他就OK了那所以蕭教授你認為你剛剛所敘述的這些算不算是國人對於司法改革的期許之一你為司法改革國人期許很大而且認為我們的司法改革程序很慢\n\n27\n00:08:52,397 --> 00:08:58,363\n我必須要誠實告訴你我們台灣社會普遍認為台灣的司法改革很慢而且台灣的司法改革做得很艱難\n\n28\n00:09:12,385 --> 00:09:37,575\n這個就是會牽涉到大家對於法律的信任對司法獨立審判的制度的信任對大法官的服不服氣跟信任的問題喔是我覺得因為貴院的委員有直接的民主正當性所以你們的這個成敗呢就反映在選舉那行政機關甚至法官他沒有直接的民主正當性雖然我們\n\n29\n00:09:38,362 --> 00:10:00,955\n最後還是要經過貴院的同意我們有尖尖民主正當性但是呢我們的正當性呢應該主要是建立在我們的說理就是說如何把理由說清楚讓人民信服我覺得這是我們要去做的但是這種說理的工作呢需要很長時間的累積但是呢要破壞一下子就破壞掉了所以我個人是覺得說我們還是要\n\n30\n00:10:02,011 --> 00:10:17,830\n跟所有的司法人員一起來努力我們盡量把我們的想法意見跟老百姓溝通然後做成決定我覺得這樣是最對的所以我期許如果未來你擔任大法官之後那在解釋憲法的時候不僅僅是因為\n\n31\n00:10:19,952 --> 00:10:34,333\n法學制度跟所謂的學理深度更要與時俱進貼近人民跟社會的期待而且就如同你說的以身作則希望跟司法體制所有的從業人員所有的司法人員大家共同來\n\n32\n00:10:35,675 --> 00:10:57,478\n做到你剛剛所論述的讓人民無論在哪一個法院哪一級審都能夠獲得公平的對待而且是要能夠服氣這一句話最後一句話是最重要的為什麼現在台灣人民對司法不信任不服氣這個其實我們要深自檢討大家要共同努力對不對蕭教授\n\n33\n00:10:58,516 --> 00:11:23,835\n所以我才會剛剛一直提醒你我們作為這個憲法的守護者我們也期許作為是一個憲法的溝通者所以憲法法庭要能夠正常運作我相信今天早上有其他委員有提到我們今年五月立法院三讀修正了這個憲法訴訟法把這個做成判決的門檻提高為十人出席那違憲的宣告需要高達九人同意\n\n34\n00:11:24,655 --> 00:11:44,044\n尤其現況我相信你也清楚才會有今天的審查我們有七位大法官任期屆滿然後現在只有八位所以造成目前憲法法庭無法做成任何判決我們希望這一次大法官的一個審查跟人事同意權能夠順利\n\n35\n00:11:45,185 --> 00:12:11,137\n那這個順利是因為我們關係到人民申請釋憲未來他的權利的一個守護所以無法現在的憲法法庭如果沒有辦法正常運作那對人民權利造成的影響蕭教授你認為呢基本上我個人是這樣想就是說因為我們憲法徵求條文裡面規定的大法官法定原額是15個\n\n36\n00:12:12,657 --> 00:12:32,144\n那如果法定原額15個跟現有原額一樣的話那10個人9個人10個人8個人那個影響不大那為什麼會有這麼嚴格的當然就是說希望不要由少數的大法官來決定但是這個規定最大的問題是在於他沒有設例外規定\n\n37\n00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:49,880\n沒有設例外規定也就是說我們所有的程序的規定都是要讓組織能夠運作我們不要定一個程序組織沒有辦法運作如果沒有辦法運作就是癱瘓憲法法庭當這個組織沒有辦法運作憲法法庭沒有辦法\n\n38\n00:12:52,386 --> 00:13:19,638\n這個開庭甚至做成決定的時候我覺得這個可能就是要有一些例外規定來處理因為很少國家像我們這樣所以也不見得每個國家都有例外規定我個人是覺得說我們以前的三分之二、二分之一這個不高啦因為以前也有四分之三、四分之三的但是因為以前四分之三、四分之三存在的意義就是說它不會有例外規定它就全部都到齊\n\n39\n00:13:20,657 --> 00:13:39,916\n那全部都到齊的情況之下就算你要求四分之三的絕對多數還是開的起會四分之三的可決還是可以做決定所以你的論述是告訴我們說之前呢是不管再怎麼樣訂的一個高標準那還是開的起\n\n40\n00:13:40,636 --> 00:14:00,719\n開的出這個憲法法庭就是法定跟現有人數一樣現在是沒辦法連開庭成立的這個人數都達不到沒辦法嘛就是說法律的規定是理想的啦但是我們要顧及現實面因為台灣的情形有時候跟國外不太一樣\n\n41\n00:14:01,460 --> 00:14:15,994\n所以假設原來的規定是沒有問題的台灣的經濟跟國外不太一樣的有就是說我們以前我們本來規定八個七個這樣換那委員也知道兩年後有四個的有兩個的那就是我們的缺額會不斷的產生\n\n42\n00:14:17,856 --> 00:14:37,091\n本來我們當初的設計就四年一次就好了那現在變成兩年都要一次啊所以當初的設計呢就出現現實面的問題那現實面的問題呢我們就要用例外規定的方法來處理我個人是這樣覺得就是說十個人九個人十個人八個人那個基本上\n\n43\n00:14:39,232 --> 00:14:54,631\n形式上沒有問題但是你一定要去注意例外的情形萬一七個人甚至將來有可能假設我們隨便舉一個例子過了兩個過幾年會剩下六個啊那六個根本離十個更遠啊\n\n44\n00:14:55,543 --> 00:15:13,089\n所以你會建議如果按照你這樣子的論述跟看法那你會建議如果未來擔任大法官有人提出釋憲那你會怎麼樣做決定因為這是已經在提釋憲了我個人會認為就是說我們很多的法律規定都有原則例外關係\n\n45\n00:15:15,090 --> 00:15:32,723\n原則例外就是要去處理那些比較特殊的個案但是不能因為說沒有規定例外的特殊個案就否定了原則因為這個會很危險所以我會不是只有憲法訴訟的問題其實很多規定也是一樣我想委員在\n\n46\n00:15:33,973 --> 00:15:51,904\n地方喔因為我在台中市書院會常常碰到那個來申請這個社會救助的那我們發現呢很多人很可憐為什麼他的資產啊什麼都符合規定他去年是符合規定的可是呢他今年變成什麼他繼承了他父母的一個房子那房子就\n\n47\n00:15:52,865 --> 00:16:11,595\n就超過那個啊可是他其他其他都沒有改變啊他沒有改變但是他就因為這樣沒有沒有辦法得到補助所以我們就建議台中市政府就說原則上你還是維持這樣但是這種例外情形你要增加例外規定讓個案可以得到正義\n\n48\n00:16:12,515 --> 00:16:33,151\n但是你不能就說你前面那個全部都是錯的全部推翻所以你在未來的憲法訴訟法的這個視線裡面你的態度也非常的清楚那這個例外原則我想對外說清楚我覺得要讓憲法法庭能夠運作而且實務上是能夠真正的回應人民的期待跟守護人民的權益\n\n49\n00:16:34,252 --> 00:16:51,570\n你剛剛講的要能夠開的成啊對對對對對如果實務上沒有辦法運作的話那開不成人民的權利就是被影響那這個部分其實就是我剛剛一開始也希望說要符合人民的期待要守護人民的權益最後一個問題就在於你剛剛講的\n\n50\n00:16:54,093 --> 00:17:22,386\n我們對於過去很多的憲法法庭的一個釋憲案的一個結果那很多人民呢都認為這個因為人為制度的關係憲法法庭陷入了只問診不開藥就如同你剛剛講的我憲法法庭有開啊我受理的你的釋憲案啊開會了之後呢我後來的判決結果呢他只告訴你合不合憲違不違憲但是後面的一個理由呢\n\n51\n00:17:23,466 --> 00:17:49,760\n說的不一定清楚那也說的不清楚的情況之下那可能呢限於我剛剛強調的就像白人去看醫生那醫生問診跟你講你大概有什麼症狀但是呢醫生就沒開藥給你吃沒有藥方人民事先要看到的結果沒有藥方我不知道該怎麼進行或者是行政機關我看到你有幫我爬梳出問題但是沒有給我解方\n\n52\n00:17:51,120 --> 00:18:18,306\n不明確那我覺得這樣子的窘境是未來憲法法庭我認為如果你身為大法官一定要去面對跟解決的你同意嗎這同意這我同意因為法律本來就不是一個強迫的過程是一個說理的過程這是我一直的想法所以我現在期待的不僅僅是說理說理完之後要有解方要明智的明白的告訴人民你可以如何走有哪些解方\n\n53\n00:18:18,766 --> 00:18:35,372\n如果是行政機關來申請釋憲那你也能夠明確的指出那問題在哪裡之外說道理之外那行政機關應該尋什麼樣的程序來修法也好或者是有什麼樣的解決方式就是為台灣的民主\n\n54\n00:18:36,352 --> 00:18:57,228\n來找出一個出路跟解方嘛這個困境我們要解決要面對不是嗎是就委員剛剛講的問題我們這次的憲法訴訟法相較以前的大審法或是大法官會議法已經改變了因為以前的大法官會議法跟大審法它基本上那個主文都就像剛剛委員所講的\n\n55\n00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:06,658\n你覺得哪一句話對的你就哪一句那現在的憲法訴訟法已經改變了因為我們是一個法庭我們會有判決主文\n\n56\n00:19:07,762 --> 00:19:34,451\n基本上主文的意見都蠻清楚的也就是說不管是最近幾年來的哪一個地方是合憲的哪一個地方是違憲的其實都蠻清楚的當然如果還有不足的地方我們會依照委員的意見去做改善謝謝是啊所以我還是再一次的期許希望未來你擔任大法官之後應該要一起窮盡憲法解釋的一個智慧跟方法然後為現在台灣人民的問題\n\n57\n00:19:36,071 --> 00:19:54,947\n市縣的一個案件能夠尋找出一個說理的過程跟未來的解方包括對行政單位的一個視線我們也希望能夠有明確的方向跟解方而不是只有說道理而不是只有過程過程之外要有解方那我相信\n\n58\n00:19:56,141 --> 00:20:15,327\n蕭教授你也知道台灣現在民主的一個困境是在於我注意到你過去在中正大學對於野草苺太陽花跟聲援香港反送中運動裡面你也都有參與連署所以對台灣的民主你有信心也堅定的一起站在台灣的民主這條道路上對不對是啊\n\n59\n00:20:21,644 --> 00:20:27,482\n好謝謝何欣淳委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名的蕭文森教授的\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2177\t5900\t好 謝謝院長 我們請蕭教授再請被提名的蕭教授說明\n13945\t37259\t蕭教授好我爬出了一下你個人的資料所以蕭教授多年來投身公法學術的研究也為台灣培育了很多的法律人才因為我知道你在中正大學任教於30年我剛剛又稍微看了一下你的經歷除了教學研究工作之外你有擔任過行政職而且在\n38199\t55731\t考試院內政部跟地方政府包括台中市、彰化縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣等等都有擔任書院委員會的委員也擔任過交通部的法規委員會的委員等等我要強調的是看起來你是一個除了研究、學術、教學\n58292\t77807\t之外還有實務經驗那這一點我認為對於大法官未來的職務非常重要為什麼因為呢大法官呢不僅僅是一個獨立的一個憲法的守護者那我們更期待國人也更期待大法官更貼近人民而且能夠與時俱進\n79588\t104375\t所以希望透過今天的詢答能夠了解您如何將您過去的這些學歷經歷背景轉化為未來可以捍衛人民權益的具體作為所以今天我想請教您認為在憲法法庭作為憲政民主跟人權的守護者如何在民意的期待跟憲法原則之間取得一個平衡呢蕭教授\n107274\t111442\t首先我想如果作為一個大法官他最主要的工作就是解釋憲法\n112709\t134999\t解釋憲法的依據就是我們憲法本文跟政修條文還有憲政慣例還有歷來大法官跟憲法法庭的解釋那這個是我主要的依據至於剛剛委員所講的民意或是輿論我想作為一個人一定會受這些影響這個沒有問題我們也不要說很清高就是說不行我絕對不會受影響但是這些影響應該只是一個\n136198\t150135\t輔助性的決定性的工具呢還是在這些客觀的價值跟法律秩序我從不否認就是說一個人的出生甚至一個人的這個教育背景當然會有特定的想法\n151169\t167720\t一個人如果沒有特定的想法我想就不適合當作是一個正常的國民或是現代人所以蕭教授我可以這樣解讀嗎因為你在回覆本黨團的書面資料裡面有提到這個個人的價值理念民意跟社會輿論\n168801\t185046\t是影響判決的可能因素之一而且個人價值理念與民意及社會輿論會隨著個人成長與時代發展而有所改變這是你的回答剛剛你的回答是蠻符合的\n185526\t204640\t所以我想包括我在內國人期待的大法官不僅僅是一位堅定的憲法守護者更是一位能夠與時俱進理解人民情感了解社會跟民主脈動的憲法溝通者這樣子的論述這樣的基調你同意嗎我贊成\n205180\t229841\t你贊成吧 是不是所以我們期許如果人事統一權通過之後你獲選為大法官那您未來可能會受理到的人民申請的事先案裡面我希望能夠本於這樣子的一個態度作為一個憲法的守護者也能夠作為一個憲法的溝通者這是我們大家的期許那接下來我就要請教你了好\n231042\t253298\t我們從數據上看到這三年來憲法法庭受理並且做成裁判的案件中有75%是來自人民的申請而這些案件是人民窮盡所有法院審計救濟管道之後對國家跟司法的最後一道的希望那還有期盼也因此大法官每一次的釋憲都會實實切切影響到人民權利的保障所以國人\n259063\t277915\t對司法、對大法官有很深切的期待但是我想請教一下蕭教授你看過一齣雖然叫戲劇但是卻是一個名作而且很多國人看過之後都非常有感受一齣戲叫做《我們與惡的距離》你有看過這一齣戲嗎\n279594\t282836\t我為什麼會提起這一齣戲?這一齣戲引起國人很大的共鳴而且也引起了很多的討論在這個討論裡面\n300808\t325521\t大部分的國人都會有一個想法包括我這幾年來在外面跟人民接觸跟基層接觸大家都會說為什麼司法跟人民的距離這麼遠教授你你認為呢我想司法跟人民的距離如果是要這個委員所講的以及很多的調查報告\n326499\t346108\t大概有下面三個原因第一個原因就是說法律講話太不直接所以有所謂的法律白話文運動可是我覺得白話文越講好像也效果不好那我就會回去想就是說很多專利我們也看不懂啊為什麼專利不用白話文化為什麼法律要白話文化\n347042\t366497\t因為關係到人民的權利所以這部份我們要繼續努力的去加強而且理解司法對於人民的保障然後第二個就是我們傳統的講法我用台語講一心中盤 二心村盤 三心地下彌生\n367998\t387097\t那這個我相信在以前的話是沒問題但是就我個人而言我接觸的同學來講因為現在資訊這麼發達這個我想不敢說沒有但是應該在逐漸減少中那我想第三個大概是最大的問題因為我們這個訴訟一定有勝敗\n390339\t419448\t那在台灣理論上勝的人要高興啊敗的人要不高興可是假設照我們的民調來講司法應該要有50%啊因為贏的人會高興啊可是看起來都是二三十三四十那表示什麼輸的人不高興贏的人也沒有很高興那到底這個問題在哪裡呢我想最主要的理由應該是這個啦那到底為什麼輸的人一定不是不高興的我覺得這個沒問題但是為什麼贏的人\n420388\t434470\t還是一樣不高興呢我個人是這樣覺得啦就是說可能大家在對於法院的判決上面其實輸贏是一件事情另外一件事情以中南部的人來講就是我服不服氣啦\n435595\t451681\t有的人輸了很服氣有的人贏了不服氣所以我個人覺得說最主要的應該是我們法院在判決理由檢察官在起訴不起訴的理由裡面要做非常完整適度的說明\n452722\t465900\t那這個為什麼會有缺陷呢其實我常常跟老百姓聊天他們就說法官為什麼會那麼簡單的就這樣寫我會跟他們講說你來這裡你一輩子才來一次啊他們每天都來啊\n468234\t483201\t你一輩子只有一個案件可是他們一天要做30個一年要做所以你講到這一個部分有關司法裡面的負擔的問題不是負擔的問題而是說我們希望大家互相的去體諒\n484722\t499438\t人民要體諒但是責任要在司法系統我們要盡一切的所能把可能的理由或者就說人民的主張尤其我在溯源會的時候我們一向主張人民有什麼主張我們要一個一個回\n500509\t529779\t就是說就算他的主張非常不合理你還是要用簡單的幾句話去交代有時候人民明明知道自己是錯了可是他要爭一口氣在台灣有很多這樣的人民但是你只要跟他講說你錯在哪裡他就OK了那所以蕭教授你認為你剛剛所敘述的這些算不算是國人對於司法改革的期許之一你為司法改革國人期許很大而且認為我們的司法改革程序很慢\n532397\t538363\t我必須要誠實告訴你我們台灣社會普遍認為台灣的司法改革很慢而且台灣的司法改革做得很艱難\n552385\t577575\t這個就是會牽涉到大家對於法律的信任對司法獨立審判的制度的信任對大法官的服不服氣跟信任的問題喔是 我覺得因為貴院的委員有直接的民主正當性所以你們的這個成敗呢就反映在選舉那行政機關甚至法官他沒有直接的民主正當性雖然我們\n578362\t600955\t最後還是要經過貴院的同意我們有尖尖民主正當性但是呢我們的正當性呢應該主要是建立在我們的說理就是說如何把理由說清楚讓人民信服我覺得這是我們要去做的但是這種說理的工作呢需要很長時間的累積但是呢要破壞一下子就破壞掉了所以我個人是覺得說我們還是要\n602011\t617830\t跟所有的司法人員一起來努力我們盡量把我們的想法意見跟老百姓溝通然後做成決定我覺得這樣是最對的所以我期許如果未來你擔任大法官之後那在解釋憲法的時候不僅僅是因為\n619952\t634333\t法學制度跟所謂的學理深度更要與時俱進貼近人民跟社會的期待而且就如同你說的以身作則希望跟司法體制所有的從業人員所有的司法人員大家共同來\n635675\t657478\t做到你剛剛所論述的讓人民無論在哪一個法院哪一級審都能夠獲得公平的對待而且是要能夠服氣這一句話最後一句話是最重要的為什麼現在台灣人民對司法不信任不服氣這個其實我們要深自檢討大家要共同努力對不對蕭教授\n658516\t683835\t所以我才會剛剛一直提醒你我們作為這個憲法的守護者我們也期許作為是一個憲法的溝通者所以憲法法庭要能夠正常運作我相信今天早上有其他委員有提到我們今年五月立法院三讀修正了這個憲法訴訟法把這個做成判決的門檻提高為十人出席那違憲的宣告需要高達九人同意\n684655\t704044\t尤其現況我相信你也清楚才會有今天的審查我們有七位大法官任期屆滿然後現在只有八位所以造成目前憲法法庭無法做成任何判決我們希望這一次大法官的一個審查跟人事同意權能夠順利\n705185\t731137\t那這個順利是因為我們關係到人民申請釋憲未來他的權利的一個守護所以無法現在的憲法法庭如果沒有辦法正常運作那對人民權利造成的影響蕭教授你認為呢基本上我個人是這樣想就是說因為我們憲法徵求條文裡面規定的大法官法定原額是15個\n732657\t752144\t那如果法定原額15個跟現有原額一樣的話那10個人9個人10個人8個人那個影響不大那為什麼會有這麼嚴格的當然就是說希望不要由少數的大法官來決定但是這個規定最大的問題是在於他沒有設例外規定\n753200\t769880\t沒有設例外規定也就是說我們所有的程序的規定都是要讓組織能夠運作我們不要定一個程序組織沒有辦法運作如果沒有辦法運作就是癱瘓憲法法庭當這個組織沒有辦法運作憲法法庭沒有辦法\n772386\t799638\t這個開庭甚至做成決定的時候我覺得這個可能就是要有一些例外規定來處理因為很少國家像我們這樣所以也不見得每個國家都有例外規定我個人是覺得說我們以前的三分之二、二分之一這個不高啦因為以前也有四分之三、四分之三的但是因為以前四分之三、四分之三存在的意義就是說它不會有例外規定它就全部都到齊\n800657\t819916\t那全部都到齊的情況之下就算你要求四分之三的絕對多數還是開的起會四分之三的可決還是可以做決定所以你的論述是告訴我們說之前呢是不管再怎麼樣訂的一個高標準那還是開的起\n820636\t840719\t開的出這個憲法法庭就是法定跟現有人數一樣現在是沒辦法連開庭成立的這個人數都達不到沒辦法嘛就是說法律的規定是理想的啦但是我們要顧及現實面因為台灣的情形有時候跟國外不太一樣\n841460\t855994\t所以假設原來的規定是沒有問題的台灣的經濟跟國外不太一樣的有就是說我們以前我們本來規定八個七個這樣換那委員也知道兩年後有四個的有兩個的那就是我們的缺額會不斷的產生\n857856\t877091\t本來我們當初的設計就四年一次就好了那現在變成兩年都要一次啊所以當初的設計呢就出現現實面的問題那現實面的問題呢我們就要用例外規定的方法來處理我個人是這樣覺得就是說十個人九個人十個人八個人那個基本上\n879232\t894631\t形式上沒有問題但是你一定要去注意例外的情形萬一七個人甚至將來有可能假設我們隨便舉一個例子過了兩個過幾年會剩下六個啊那六個根本離十個更遠啊\n895543\t913089\t所以你會建議 如果按照你這樣子的論述跟看法那你會建議如果未來擔任大法官有人提出釋憲那你會怎麼樣做決定因為這是已經在提釋憲了我個人會認為就是說我們很多的法律規定都有原則例外關係\n915090\t932723\t原則例外就是要去處理那些比較特殊的個案但是不能因為說沒有規定例外的特殊個案就否定了原則因為這個會很危險所以我會不是只有憲法訴訟的問題其實很多規定也是一樣我想委員在\n933973\t951904\t地方喔因為我在台中市書院會常常碰到那個來申請這個社會救助的那我們發現呢很多人很可憐為什麼他的資產啊什麼都符合規定他去年是符合規定的可是呢他今年變成什麼他繼承了他父母的一個房子那房子就\n952865\t971595\t就超過那個啊可是他其他其他都沒有改變啊他沒有改變但是他就因為這樣沒有沒有辦法得到補助所以我們就建議台中市政府就說原則上你還是維持這樣但是這種例外情形你要增加例外規定讓個案可以得到正義\n972515\t993151\t但是你不能就說你前面那個全部都是錯的 全部推翻所以你在未來的憲法訴訟法的這個視線裡面你的態度也非常的清楚那這個例外原則我想對外說清楚我覺得要讓憲法法庭能夠運作而且實務上是能夠真正的回應人民的期待跟守護人民的權益\n994252\t1011570\t你剛剛講的要能夠開的成啊對對對對對如果實務上沒有辦法運作的話那開不成人民的權利就是被影響那這個部分其實就是我剛剛一開始也希望說要符合人民的期待要守護人民的權益最後一個問題就在於你剛剛講的\n1014093\t1042386\t我們對於過去很多的憲法法庭的一個釋憲案的一個結果那很多人民呢都認為這個因為人為制度的關係憲法法庭陷入了只問診不開藥就如同你剛剛講的我憲法法庭有開啊我受理的你的釋憲案啊開會了之後呢我後來的判決結果呢他只告訴你合不合憲違不違憲但是後面的一個理由呢\n1043466\t1069760\t說的不一定清楚那也說的不清楚的情況之下那可能呢 限於我剛剛強調的就像白人去看醫生那醫生問診 跟你講你大概有什麼症狀但是呢 醫生就沒開藥給你吃 沒有藥方人民事先要看到的結果沒有藥方我不知道該怎麼進行或者是行政機關我看到你有幫我爬梳出問題但是沒有給我解方\n1071120\t1098306\t不明確那我覺得這樣子的窘境是未來憲法法庭我認為如果你身為大法官一定要去面對跟解決的你同意嗎這同意 這我同意因為法律本來就不是一個強迫的過程是一個說理的過程這是我一直的想法所以我現在期待的不僅僅是說理說理完之後要有解方要明智的 明白的告訴人民你可以如何走有哪些解方\n1098766\t1115372\t如果是行政機關來申請釋憲那你也能夠明確的指出那問題在哪裡之外說道理之外那行政機關應該尋什麼樣的程序來修法也好或者是有什麼樣的解決方式就是為台灣的民主\n1116352\t1137228\t來找出一個出路跟解方嘛這個困境我們要解決要面對不是嗎是就委員剛剛講的問題我們這次的憲法訴訟法相較以前的大審法或是大法官會議法已經改變了因為以前的大法官會議法跟大審法它基本上那個主文都就像剛剛委員所講的\n1138120\t1146658\t你覺得哪一句話對的你就哪一句那現在的憲法訴訟法已經改變了因為我們是一個法庭我們會有判決主文\n1147762\t1174451\t基本上主文的意見都蠻清楚的也就是說不管是最近幾年來的哪一個地方是合憲的哪一個地方是違憲的其實都蠻清楚的當然如果還有不足的地方我們會依照委員的意見去做改善 謝謝是啊 所以我還是再一次的期許希望未來你擔任大法官之後應該要一起窮盡憲法解釋的一個智慧跟方法然後為現在台灣人民的問題\n1176071\t1194947\t市縣的一個案件能夠尋找出一個說理的過程跟未來的解方包括對行政單位的一個視線我們也希望能夠有明確的方向跟解方而不是只有說道理而不是只有過程過程之外要有解方那我相信\n1196141\t1215327\t蕭教授你也知道台灣現在民主的一個困境是在於我注意到你過去在中正大學對於野草苺太陽花跟聲援香港反送中運動裡面你也都有參與連署所以對台灣的民主你有信心也堅定的一起站在台灣的民主這條道路上對不對是啊\n1221644\t1227482\t好 謝謝何欣淳委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名的蕭文森教授的\n","txt":"好 謝謝院長 我們請蕭教授再請被提名的蕭教授說明\n蕭教授好我爬出了一下你個人的資料所以蕭教授多年來投身公法學術的研究也為台灣培育了很多的法律人才因為我知道你在中正大學任教於30年我剛剛又稍微看了一下你的經歷除了教學研究工作之外你有擔任過行政職而且在\n考試院內政部跟地方政府包括台中市、彰化縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣等等都有擔任書院委員會的委員也擔任過交通部的法規委員會的委員等等我要強調的是看起來你是一個除了研究、學術、教學\n之外還有實務經驗那這一點我認為對於大法官未來的職務非常重要為什麼因為呢大法官呢不僅僅是一個獨立的一個憲法的守護者那我們更期待國人也更期待大法官更貼近人民而且能夠與時俱進\n所以希望透過今天的詢答能夠了解您如何將您過去的這些學歷經歷背景轉化為未來可以捍衛人民權益的具體作為所以今天我想請教您認為在憲法法庭作為憲政民主跟人權的守護者如何在民意的期待跟憲法原則之間取得一個平衡呢蕭教授\n首先我想如果作為一個大法官他最主要的工作就是解釋憲法\n解釋憲法的依據就是我們憲法本文跟政修條文還有憲政慣例還有歷來大法官跟憲法法庭的解釋那這個是我主要的依據至於剛剛委員所講的民意或是輿論我想作為一個人一定會受這些影響這個沒有問題我們也不要說很清高就是說不行我絕對不會受影響但是這些影響應該只是一個\n輔助性的決定性的工具呢還是在這些客觀的價值跟法律秩序我從不否認就是說一個人的出生甚至一個人的這個教育背景當然會有特定的想法\n一個人如果沒有特定的想法我想就不適合當作是一個正常的國民或是現代人所以蕭教授我可以這樣解讀嗎因為你在回覆本黨團的書面資料裡面有提到這個個人的價值理念民意跟社會輿論\n是影響判決的可能因素之一而且個人價值理念與民意及社會輿論會隨著個人成長與時代發展而有所改變這是你的回答剛剛你的回答是蠻符合的\n所以我想包括我在內國人期待的大法官不僅僅是一位堅定的憲法守護者更是一位能夠與時俱進理解人民情感了解社會跟民主脈動的憲法溝通者這樣子的論述這樣的基調你同意嗎我贊成\n你贊成吧 是不是所以我們期許如果人事統一權通過之後你獲選為大法官那您未來可能會受理到的人民申請的事先案裡面我希望能夠本於這樣子的一個態度作為一個憲法的守護者也能夠作為一個憲法的溝通者這是我們大家的期許那接下來我就要請教你了好\n我們從數據上看到這三年來憲法法庭受理並且做成裁判的案件中有75%是來自人民的申請而這些案件是人民窮盡所有法院審計救濟管道之後對國家跟司法的最後一道的希望那還有期盼也因此大法官每一次的釋憲都會實實切切影響到人民權利的保障所以國人\n對司法、對大法官有很深切的期待但是我想請教一下蕭教授你看過一齣雖然叫戲劇但是卻是一個名作而且很多國人看過之後都非常有感受一齣戲叫做《我們與惡的距離》你有看過這一齣戲嗎\n我為什麼會提起這一齣戲?這一齣戲引起國人很大的共鳴而且也引起了很多的討論在這個討論裡面\n大部分的國人都會有一個想法包括我這幾年來在外面跟人民接觸跟基層接觸大家都會說為什麼司法跟人民的距離這麼遠教授你你認為呢我想司法跟人民的距離如果是要這個委員所講的以及很多的調查報告\n大概有下面三個原因第一個原因就是說法律講話太不直接所以有所謂的法律白話文運動可是我覺得白話文越講好像也效果不好那我就會回去想就是說很多專利我們也看不懂啊為什麼專利不用白話文化為什麼法律要白話文化\n因為關係到人民的權利所以這部份我們要繼續努力的去加強而且理解司法對於人民的保障然後第二個就是我們傳統的講法我用台語講一心中盤 二心村盤 三心地下彌生\n那這個我相信在以前的話是沒問題但是就我個人而言我接觸的同學來講因為現在資訊這麼發達這個我想不敢說沒有但是應該在逐漸減少中那我想第三個大概是最大的問題因為我們這個訴訟一定有勝敗\n那在台灣理論上勝的人要高興啊敗的人要不高興可是假設照我們的民調來講司法應該要有50%啊因為贏的人會高興啊可是看起來都是二三十三四十那表示什麼輸的人不高興贏的人也沒有很高興那到底這個問題在哪裡呢我想最主要的理由應該是這個啦那到底為什麼輸的人一定不是不高興的我覺得這個沒問題但是為什麼贏的人\n還是一樣不高興呢我個人是這樣覺得啦就是說可能大家在對於法院的判決上面其實輸贏是一件事情另外一件事情以中南部的人來講就是我服不服氣啦\n有的人輸了很服氣有的人贏了不服氣所以我個人覺得說最主要的應該是我們法院在判決理由檢察官在起訴不起訴的理由裡面要做非常完整適度的說明\n那這個為什麼會有缺陷呢其實我常常跟老百姓聊天他們就說法官為什麼會那麼簡單的就這樣寫我會跟他們講說你來這裡你一輩子才來一次啊他們每天都來啊\n你一輩子只有一個案件可是他們一天要做30個一年要做所以你講到這一個部分有關司法裡面的負擔的問題不是負擔的問題而是說我們希望大家互相的去體諒\n人民要體諒但是責任要在司法系統我們要盡一切的所能把可能的理由或者就說人民的主張尤其我在溯源會的時候我們一向主張人民有什麼主張我們要一個一個回\n就是說就算他的主張非常不合理你還是要用簡單的幾句話去交代有時候人民明明知道自己是錯了可是他要爭一口氣在台灣有很多這樣的人民但是你只要跟他講說你錯在哪裡他就OK了那所以蕭教授你認為你剛剛所敘述的這些算不算是國人對於司法改革的期許之一你為司法改革國人期許很大而且認為我們的司法改革程序很慢\n我必須要誠實告訴你我們台灣社會普遍認為台灣的司法改革很慢而且台灣的司法改革做得很艱難\n這個就是會牽涉到大家對於法律的信任對司法獨立審判的制度的信任對大法官的服不服氣跟信任的問題喔是 我覺得因為貴院的委員有直接的民主正當性所以你們的這個成敗呢就反映在選舉那行政機關甚至法官他沒有直接的民主正當性雖然我們\n最後還是要經過貴院的同意我們有尖尖民主正當性但是呢我們的正當性呢應該主要是建立在我們的說理就是說如何把理由說清楚讓人民信服我覺得這是我們要去做的但是這種說理的工作呢需要很長時間的累積但是呢要破壞一下子就破壞掉了所以我個人是覺得說我們還是要\n跟所有的司法人員一起來努力我們盡量把我們的想法意見跟老百姓溝通然後做成決定我覺得這樣是最對的所以我期許如果未來你擔任大法官之後那在解釋憲法的時候不僅僅是因為\n法學制度跟所謂的學理深度更要與時俱進貼近人民跟社會的期待而且就如同你說的以身作則希望跟司法體制所有的從業人員所有的司法人員大家共同來\n做到你剛剛所論述的讓人民無論在哪一個法院哪一級審都能夠獲得公平的對待而且是要能夠服氣這一句話最後一句話是最重要的為什麼現在台灣人民對司法不信任不服氣這個其實我們要深自檢討大家要共同努力對不對蕭教授\n所以我才會剛剛一直提醒你我們作為這個憲法的守護者我們也期許作為是一個憲法的溝通者所以憲法法庭要能夠正常運作我相信今天早上有其他委員有提到我們今年五月立法院三讀修正了這個憲法訴訟法把這個做成判決的門檻提高為十人出席那違憲的宣告需要高達九人同意\n尤其現況我相信你也清楚才會有今天的審查我們有七位大法官任期屆滿然後現在只有八位所以造成目前憲法法庭無法做成任何判決我們希望這一次大法官的一個審查跟人事同意權能夠順利\n那這個順利是因為我們關係到人民申請釋憲未來他的權利的一個守護所以無法現在的憲法法庭如果沒有辦法正常運作那對人民權利造成的影響蕭教授你認為呢基本上我個人是這樣想就是說因為我們憲法徵求條文裡面規定的大法官法定原額是15個\n那如果法定原額15個跟現有原額一樣的話那10個人9個人10個人8個人那個影響不大那為什麼會有這麼嚴格的當然就是說希望不要由少數的大法官來決定但是這個規定最大的問題是在於他沒有設例外規定\n沒有設例外規定也就是說我們所有的程序的規定都是要讓組織能夠運作我們不要定一個程序組織沒有辦法運作如果沒有辦法運作就是癱瘓憲法法庭當這個組織沒有辦法運作憲法法庭沒有辦法\n這個開庭甚至做成決定的時候我覺得這個可能就是要有一些例外規定來處理因為很少國家像我們這樣所以也不見得每個國家都有例外規定我個人是覺得說我們以前的三分之二、二分之一這個不高啦因為以前也有四分之三、四分之三的但是因為以前四分之三、四分之三存在的意義就是說它不會有例外規定它就全部都到齊\n那全部都到齊的情況之下就算你要求四分之三的絕對多數還是開的起會四分之三的可決還是可以做決定所以你的論述是告訴我們說之前呢是不管再怎麼樣訂的一個高標準那還是開的起\n開的出這個憲法法庭就是法定跟現有人數一樣現在是沒辦法連開庭成立的這個人數都達不到沒辦法嘛就是說法律的規定是理想的啦但是我們要顧及現實面因為台灣的情形有時候跟國外不太一樣\n所以假設原來的規定是沒有問題的台灣的經濟跟國外不太一樣的有就是說我們以前我們本來規定八個七個這樣換那委員也知道兩年後有四個的有兩個的那就是我們的缺額會不斷的產生\n本來我們當初的設計就四年一次就好了那現在變成兩年都要一次啊所以當初的設計呢就出現現實面的問題那現實面的問題呢我們就要用例外規定的方法來處理我個人是這樣覺得就是說十個人九個人十個人八個人那個基本上\n形式上沒有問題但是你一定要去注意例外的情形萬一七個人甚至將來有可能假設我們隨便舉一個例子過了兩個過幾年會剩下六個啊那六個根本離十個更遠啊\n所以你會建議 如果按照你這樣子的論述跟看法那你會建議如果未來擔任大法官有人提出釋憲那你會怎麼樣做決定因為這是已經在提釋憲了我個人會認為就是說我們很多的法律規定都有原則例外關係\n原則例外就是要去處理那些比較特殊的個案但是不能因為說沒有規定例外的特殊個案就否定了原則因為這個會很危險所以我會不是只有憲法訴訟的問題其實很多規定也是一樣我想委員在\n地方喔因為我在台中市書院會常常碰到那個來申請這個社會救助的那我們發現呢很多人很可憐為什麼他的資產啊什麼都符合規定他去年是符合規定的可是呢他今年變成什麼他繼承了他父母的一個房子那房子就\n就超過那個啊可是他其他其他都沒有改變啊他沒有改變但是他就因為這樣沒有沒有辦法得到補助所以我們就建議台中市政府就說原則上你還是維持這樣但是這種例外情形你要增加例外規定讓個案可以得到正義\n但是你不能就說你前面那個全部都是錯的 全部推翻所以你在未來的憲法訴訟法的這個視線裡面你的態度也非常的清楚那這個例外原則我想對外說清楚我覺得要讓憲法法庭能夠運作而且實務上是能夠真正的回應人民的期待跟守護人民的權益\n你剛剛講的要能夠開的成啊對對對對對如果實務上沒有辦法運作的話那開不成人民的權利就是被影響那這個部分其實就是我剛剛一開始也希望說要符合人民的期待要守護人民的權益最後一個問題就在於你剛剛講的\n我們對於過去很多的憲法法庭的一個釋憲案的一個結果那很多人民呢都認為這個因為人為制度的關係憲法法庭陷入了只問診不開藥就如同你剛剛講的我憲法法庭有開啊我受理的你的釋憲案啊開會了之後呢我後來的判決結果呢他只告訴你合不合憲違不違憲但是後面的一個理由呢\n說的不一定清楚那也說的不清楚的情況之下那可能呢 限於我剛剛強調的就像白人去看醫生那醫生問診 跟你講你大概有什麼症狀但是呢 醫生就沒開藥給你吃 沒有藥方人民事先要看到的結果沒有藥方我不知道該怎麼進行或者是行政機關我看到你有幫我爬梳出問題但是沒有給我解方\n不明確那我覺得這樣子的窘境是未來憲法法庭我認為如果你身為大法官一定要去面對跟解決的你同意嗎這同意 這我同意因為法律本來就不是一個強迫的過程是一個說理的過程這是我一直的想法所以我現在期待的不僅僅是說理說理完之後要有解方要明智的 明白的告訴人民你可以如何走有哪些解方\n如果是行政機關來申請釋憲那你也能夠明確的指出那問題在哪裡之外說道理之外那行政機關應該尋什麼樣的程序來修法也好或者是有什麼樣的解決方式就是為台灣的民主\n來找出一個出路跟解方嘛這個困境我們要解決要面對不是嗎是就委員剛剛講的問題我們這次的憲法訴訟法相較以前的大審法或是大法官會議法已經改變了因為以前的大法官會議法跟大審法它基本上那個主文都就像剛剛委員所講的\n你覺得哪一句話對的你就哪一句那現在的憲法訴訟法已經改變了因為我們是一個法庭我們會有判決主文\n基本上主文的意見都蠻清楚的也就是說不管是最近幾年來的哪一個地方是合憲的哪一個地方是違憲的其實都蠻清楚的當然如果還有不足的地方我們會依照委員的意見去做改善 謝謝是啊 所以我還是再一次的期許希望未來你擔任大法官之後應該要一起窮盡憲法解釋的一個智慧跟方法然後為現在台灣人民的問題\n市縣的一個案件能夠尋找出一個說理的過程跟未來的解方包括對行政單位的一個視線我們也希望能夠有明確的方向跟解方而不是只有說道理而不是只有過程過程之外要有解方那我相信\n蕭教授你也知道台灣現在民主的一個困境是在於我注意到你過去在中正大學對於野草苺太陽花跟聲援香港反送中運動裡面你也都有參與連署所以對台灣的民主你有信心也堅定的一起站在台灣的民主這條道路上對不對是啊\n好 謝謝何欣淳委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名的蕭文森教授的\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.177 --> 00:05.900\n好謝謝院長我們請蕭教授再請被提名的蕭教授說明\n\n00:13.945 --> 00:37.259\n蕭教授好我爬出了一下你個人的資料所以蕭教授多年來投身公法學術的研究也為台灣培育了很多的法律人才因為我知道你在中正大學任教於30年我剛剛又稍微看了一下你的經歷除了教學研究工作之外你有擔任過行政職而且在\n\n00:38.199 --> 00:55.731\n考試院內政部跟地方政府包括台中市、彰化縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣等等都有擔任書院委員會的委員也擔任過交通部的法規委員會的委員等等我要強調的是看起來你是一個除了研究、學術、教學\n\n00:58.292 --> 01:17.807\n之外還有實務經驗那這一點我認為對於大法官未來的職務非常重要為什麼因為呢大法官呢不僅僅是一個獨立的一個憲法的守護者那我們更期待國人也更期待大法官更貼近人民而且能夠與時俱進\n\n01:19.588 --> 01:44.375\n所以希望透過今天的詢答能夠了解您如何將您過去的這些學歷經歷背景轉化為未來可以捍衛人民權益的具體作為所以今天我想請教您認為在憲法法庭作為憲政民主跟人權的守護者如何在民意的期待跟憲法原則之間取得一個平衡呢蕭教授\n\n01:47.274 --> 01:51.442\n首先我想如果作為一個大法官他最主要的工作就是解釋憲法\n\n01:52.709 --> 02:14.999\n解釋憲法的依據就是我們憲法本文跟政修條文還有憲政慣例還有歷來大法官跟憲法法庭的解釋那這個是我主要的依據至於剛剛委員所講的民意或是輿論我想作為一個人一定會受這些影響這個沒有問題我們也不要說很清高就是說不行我絕對不會受影響但是這些影響應該只是一個\n\n02:16.198 --> 02:30.135\n輔助性的決定性的工具呢還是在這些客觀的價值跟法律秩序我從不否認就是說一個人的出生甚至一個人的這個教育背景當然會有特定的想法\n\n02:31.169 --> 02:47.720\n一個人如果沒有特定的想法我想就不適合當作是一個正常的國民或是現代人所以蕭教授我可以這樣解讀嗎因為你在回覆本黨團的書面資料裡面有提到這個個人的價值理念民意跟社會輿論\n\n02:48.801 --> 03:05.046\n是影響判決的可能因素之一而且個人價值理念與民意及社會輿論會隨著個人成長與時代發展而有所改變這是你的回答剛剛你的回答是蠻符合的\n\n03:05.526 --> 03:24.640\n所以我想包括我在內國人期待的大法官不僅僅是一位堅定的憲法守護者更是一位能夠與時俱進理解人民情感了解社會跟民主脈動的憲法溝通者這樣子的論述這樣的基調你同意嗎我贊成\n\n03:25.180 --> 03:49.841\n你贊成吧是不是所以我們期許如果人事統一權通過之後你獲選為大法官那您未來可能會受理到的人民申請的事先案裡面我希望能夠本於這樣子的一個態度作為一個憲法的守護者也能夠作為一個憲法的溝通者這是我們大家的期許那接下來我就要請教你了好\n\n03:51.042 --> 04:13.298\n我們從數據上看到這三年來憲法法庭受理並且做成裁判的案件中有75%是來自人民的申請而這些案件是人民窮盡所有法院審計救濟管道之後對國家跟司法的最後一道的希望那還有期盼也因此大法官每一次的釋憲都會實實切切影響到人民權利的保障所以國人\n\n04:19.063 --> 04:37.915\n對司法、對大法官有很深切的期待但是我想請教一下蕭教授你看過一齣雖然叫戲劇但是卻是一個名作而且很多國人看過之後都非常有感受一齣戲叫做《我們與惡的距離》你有看過這一齣戲嗎\n\n04:39.594 --> 04:42.836\n我為什麼會提起這一齣戲?這一齣戲引起國人很大的共鳴而且也引起了很多的討論在這個討論裡面\n\n05:00.808 --> 05:25.521\n大部分的國人都會有一個想法包括我這幾年來在外面跟人民接觸跟基層接觸大家都會說為什麼司法跟人民的距離這麼遠教授你你認為呢我想司法跟人民的距離如果是要這個委員所講的以及很多的調查報告\n\n05:26.499 --> 05:46.108\n大概有下面三個原因第一個原因就是說法律講話太不直接所以有所謂的法律白話文運動可是我覺得白話文越講好像也效果不好那我就會回去想就是說很多專利我們也看不懂啊為什麼專利不用白話文化為什麼法律要白話文化\n\n05:47.042 --> 06:06.497\n因為關係到人民的權利所以這部份我們要繼續努力的去加強而且理解司法對於人民的保障然後第二個就是我們傳統的講法我用台語講一心中盤二心村盤三心地下彌生\n\n06:07.998 --> 06:27.097\n那這個我相信在以前的話是沒問題但是就我個人而言我接觸的同學來講因為現在資訊這麼發達這個我想不敢說沒有但是應該在逐漸減少中那我想第三個大概是最大的問題因為我們這個訴訟一定有勝敗\n\n06:30.339 --> 06:59.448\n那在台灣理論上勝的人要高興啊敗的人要不高興可是假設照我們的民調來講司法應該要有50%啊因為贏的人會高興啊可是看起來都是二三十三四十那表示什麼輸的人不高興贏的人也沒有很高興那到底這個問題在哪裡呢我想最主要的理由應該是這個啦那到底為什麼輸的人一定不是不高興的我覺得這個沒問題但是為什麼贏的人\n\n07:00.388 --> 07:14.470\n還是一樣不高興呢我個人是這樣覺得啦就是說可能大家在對於法院的判決上面其實輸贏是一件事情另外一件事情以中南部的人來講就是我服不服氣啦\n\n07:15.595 --> 07:31.681\n有的人輸了很服氣有的人贏了不服氣所以我個人覺得說最主要的應該是我們法院在判決理由檢察官在起訴不起訴的理由裡面要做非常完整適度的說明\n\n07:32.722 --> 07:45.900\n那這個為什麼會有缺陷呢其實我常常跟老百姓聊天他們就說法官為什麼會那麼簡單的就這樣寫我會跟他們講說你來這裡你一輩子才來一次啊他們每天都來啊\n\n07:48.234 --> 08:03.201\n你一輩子只有一個案件可是他們一天要做30個一年要做所以你講到這一個部分有關司法裡面的負擔的問題不是負擔的問題而是說我們希望大家互相的去體諒\n\n08:04.722 --> 08:19.438\n人民要體諒但是責任要在司法系統我們要盡一切的所能把可能的理由或者就說人民的主張尤其我在溯源會的時候我們一向主張人民有什麼主張我們要一個一個回\n\n08:20.509 --> 08:49.779\n就是說就算他的主張非常不合理你還是要用簡單的幾句話去交代有時候人民明明知道自己是錯了可是他要爭一口氣在台灣有很多這樣的人民但是你只要跟他講說你錯在哪裡他就OK了那所以蕭教授你認為你剛剛所敘述的這些算不算是國人對於司法改革的期許之一你為司法改革國人期許很大而且認為我們的司法改革程序很慢\n\n08:52.397 --> 08:58.363\n我必須要誠實告訴你我們台灣社會普遍認為台灣的司法改革很慢而且台灣的司法改革做得很艱難\n\n09:12.385 --> 09:37.575\n這個就是會牽涉到大家對於法律的信任對司法獨立審判的制度的信任對大法官的服不服氣跟信任的問題喔是我覺得因為貴院的委員有直接的民主正當性所以你們的這個成敗呢就反映在選舉那行政機關甚至法官他沒有直接的民主正當性雖然我們\n\n09:38.362 --> 10:00.955\n最後還是要經過貴院的同意我們有尖尖民主正當性但是呢我們的正當性呢應該主要是建立在我們的說理就是說如何把理由說清楚讓人民信服我覺得這是我們要去做的但是這種說理的工作呢需要很長時間的累積但是呢要破壞一下子就破壞掉了所以我個人是覺得說我們還是要\n\n10:02.011 --> 10:17.830\n跟所有的司法人員一起來努力我們盡量把我們的想法意見跟老百姓溝通然後做成決定我覺得這樣是最對的所以我期許如果未來你擔任大法官之後那在解釋憲法的時候不僅僅是因為\n\n10:19.952 --> 10:34.333\n法學制度跟所謂的學理深度更要與時俱進貼近人民跟社會的期待而且就如同你說的以身作則希望跟司法體制所有的從業人員所有的司法人員大家共同來\n\n10:35.675 --> 10:57.478\n做到你剛剛所論述的讓人民無論在哪一個法院哪一級審都能夠獲得公平的對待而且是要能夠服氣這一句話最後一句話是最重要的為什麼現在台灣人民對司法不信任不服氣這個其實我們要深自檢討大家要共同努力對不對蕭教授\n\n10:58.516 --> 11:23.835\n所以我才會剛剛一直提醒你我們作為這個憲法的守護者我們也期許作為是一個憲法的溝通者所以憲法法庭要能夠正常運作我相信今天早上有其他委員有提到我們今年五月立法院三讀修正了這個憲法訴訟法把這個做成判決的門檻提高為十人出席那違憲的宣告需要高達九人同意\n\n11:24.655 --> 11:44.044\n尤其現況我相信你也清楚才會有今天的審查我們有七位大法官任期屆滿然後現在只有八位所以造成目前憲法法庭無法做成任何判決我們希望這一次大法官的一個審查跟人事同意權能夠順利\n\n11:45.185 --> 12:11.137\n那這個順利是因為我們關係到人民申請釋憲未來他的權利的一個守護所以無法現在的憲法法庭如果沒有辦法正常運作那對人民權利造成的影響蕭教授你認為呢基本上我個人是這樣想就是說因為我們憲法徵求條文裡面規定的大法官法定原額是15個\n\n12:12.657 --> 12:32.144\n那如果法定原額15個跟現有原額一樣的話那10個人9個人10個人8個人那個影響不大那為什麼會有這麼嚴格的當然就是說希望不要由少數的大法官來決定但是這個規定最大的問題是在於他沒有設例外規定\n\n12:33.200 --> 12:49.880\n沒有設例外規定也就是說我們所有的程序的規定都是要讓組織能夠運作我們不要定一個程序組織沒有辦法運作如果沒有辦法運作就是癱瘓憲法法庭當這個組織沒有辦法運作憲法法庭沒有辦法\n\n12:52.386 --> 13:19.638\n這個開庭甚至做成決定的時候我覺得這個可能就是要有一些例外規定來處理因為很少國家像我們這樣所以也不見得每個國家都有例外規定我個人是覺得說我們以前的三分之二、二分之一這個不高啦因為以前也有四分之三、四分之三的但是因為以前四分之三、四分之三存在的意義就是說它不會有例外規定它就全部都到齊\n\n13:20.657 --> 13:39.916\n那全部都到齊的情況之下就算你要求四分之三的絕對多數還是開的起會四分之三的可決還是可以做決定所以你的論述是告訴我們說之前呢是不管再怎麼樣訂的一個高標準那還是開的起\n\n13:40.636 --> 14:00.719\n開的出這個憲法法庭就是法定跟現有人數一樣現在是沒辦法連開庭成立的這個人數都達不到沒辦法嘛就是說法律的規定是理想的啦但是我們要顧及現實面因為台灣的情形有時候跟國外不太一樣\n\n14:01.460 --> 14:15.994\n所以假設原來的規定是沒有問題的台灣的經濟跟國外不太一樣的有就是說我們以前我們本來規定八個七個這樣換那委員也知道兩年後有四個的有兩個的那就是我們的缺額會不斷的產生\n\n14:17.856 --> 14:37.091\n本來我們當初的設計就四年一次就好了那現在變成兩年都要一次啊所以當初的設計呢就出現現實面的問題那現實面的問題呢我們就要用例外規定的方法來處理我個人是這樣覺得就是說十個人九個人十個人八個人那個基本上\n\n14:39.232 --> 14:54.631\n形式上沒有問題但是你一定要去注意例外的情形萬一七個人甚至將來有可能假設我們隨便舉一個例子過了兩個過幾年會剩下六個啊那六個根本離十個更遠啊\n\n14:55.543 --> 15:13.089\n所以你會建議如果按照你這樣子的論述跟看法那你會建議如果未來擔任大法官有人提出釋憲那你會怎麼樣做決定因為這是已經在提釋憲了我個人會認為就是說我們很多的法律規定都有原則例外關係\n\n15:15.090 --> 15:32.723\n原則例外就是要去處理那些比較特殊的個案但是不能因為說沒有規定例外的特殊個案就否定了原則因為這個會很危險所以我會不是只有憲法訴訟的問題其實很多規定也是一樣我想委員在\n\n15:33.973 --> 15:51.904\n地方喔因為我在台中市書院會常常碰到那個來申請這個社會救助的那我們發現呢很多人很可憐為什麼他的資產啊什麼都符合規定他去年是符合規定的可是呢他今年變成什麼他繼承了他父母的一個房子那房子就\n\n15:52.865 --> 16:11.595\n就超過那個啊可是他其他其他都沒有改變啊他沒有改變但是他就因為這樣沒有沒有辦法得到補助所以我們就建議台中市政府就說原則上你還是維持這樣但是這種例外情形你要增加例外規定讓個案可以得到正義\n\n16:12.515 --> 16:33.151\n但是你不能就說你前面那個全部都是錯的全部推翻所以你在未來的憲法訴訟法的這個視線裡面你的態度也非常的清楚那這個例外原則我想對外說清楚我覺得要讓憲法法庭能夠運作而且實務上是能夠真正的回應人民的期待跟守護人民的權益\n\n16:34.252 --> 16:51.570\n你剛剛講的要能夠開的成啊對對對對對如果實務上沒有辦法運作的話那開不成人民的權利就是被影響那這個部分其實就是我剛剛一開始也希望說要符合人民的期待要守護人民的權益最後一個問題就在於你剛剛講的\n\n16:54.093 --> 17:22.386\n我們對於過去很多的憲法法庭的一個釋憲案的一個結果那很多人民呢都認為這個因為人為制度的關係憲法法庭陷入了只問診不開藥就如同你剛剛講的我憲法法庭有開啊我受理的你的釋憲案啊開會了之後呢我後來的判決結果呢他只告訴你合不合憲違不違憲但是後面的一個理由呢\n\n17:23.466 --> 17:49.760\n說的不一定清楚那也說的不清楚的情況之下那可能呢限於我剛剛強調的就像白人去看醫生那醫生問診跟你講你大概有什麼症狀但是呢醫生就沒開藥給你吃沒有藥方人民事先要看到的結果沒有藥方我不知道該怎麼進行或者是行政機關我看到你有幫我爬梳出問題但是沒有給我解方\n\n17:51.120 --> 18:18.306\n不明確那我覺得這樣子的窘境是未來憲法法庭我認為如果你身為大法官一定要去面對跟解決的你同意嗎這同意這我同意因為法律本來就不是一個強迫的過程是一個說理的過程這是我一直的想法所以我現在期待的不僅僅是說理說理完之後要有解方要明智的明白的告訴人民你可以如何走有哪些解方\n\n18:18.766 --> 18:35.372\n如果是行政機關來申請釋憲那你也能夠明確的指出那問題在哪裡之外說道理之外那行政機關應該尋什麼樣的程序來修法也好或者是有什麼樣的解決方式就是為台灣的民主\n\n18:36.352 --> 18:57.228\n來找出一個出路跟解方嘛這個困境我們要解決要面對不是嗎是就委員剛剛講的問題我們這次的憲法訴訟法相較以前的大審法或是大法官會議法已經改變了因為以前的大法官會議法跟大審法它基本上那個主文都就像剛剛委員所講的\n\n18:58.120 --> 19:06.658\n你覺得哪一句話對的你就哪一句那現在的憲法訴訟法已經改變了因為我們是一個法庭我們會有判決主文\n\n19:07.762 --> 19:34.451\n基本上主文的意見都蠻清楚的也就是說不管是最近幾年來的哪一個地方是合憲的哪一個地方是違憲的其實都蠻清楚的當然如果還有不足的地方我們會依照委員的意見去做改善謝謝是啊所以我還是再一次的期許希望未來你擔任大法官之後應該要一起窮盡憲法解釋的一個智慧跟方法然後為現在台灣人民的問題\n\n19:36.071 --> 19:54.947\n市縣的一個案件能夠尋找出一個說理的過程跟未來的解方包括對行政單位的一個視線我們也希望能夠有明確的方向跟解方而不是只有說道理而不是只有過程過程之外要有解方那我相信\n\n19:56.141 --> 20:15.327\n蕭教授你也知道台灣現在民主的一個困境是在於我注意到你過去在中正大學對於野草苺太陽花跟聲援香港反送中運動裡面你也都有參與連署所以對台灣的民主你有信心也堅定的一起站在台灣的民主這條道路上對不對是啊\n\n20:21.644 --> 20:27.482\n好謝謝何欣淳委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名的蕭文森教授的\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.177,"end":5.9,"text":"好 謝謝院長 我們請蕭教授再請被提名的蕭教授說明"},{"start":13.945,"end":37.259,"text":"蕭教授好我爬出了一下你個人的資料所以蕭教授多年來投身公法學術的研究也為台灣培育了很多的法律人才因為我知道你在中正大學任教於30年我剛剛又稍微看了一下你的經歷除了教學研究工作之外你有擔任過行政職而且在"},{"start":38.199,"end":55.731,"text":"考試院內政部跟地方政府包括台中市、彰化縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣等等都有擔任書院委員會的委員也擔任過交通部的法規委員會的委員等等我要強調的是看起來你是一個除了研究、學術、教學"},{"start":58.292,"end":77.807,"text":"之外還有實務經驗那這一點我認為對於大法官未來的職務非常重要為什麼因為呢大法官呢不僅僅是一個獨立的一個憲法的守護者那我們更期待國人也更期待大法官更貼近人民而且能夠與時俱進"},{"start":79.588,"end":104.375,"text":"所以希望透過今天的詢答能夠了解您如何將您過去的這些學歷經歷背景轉化為未來可以捍衛人民權益的具體作為所以今天我想請教您認為在憲法法庭作為憲政民主跟人權的守護者如何在民意的期待跟憲法原則之間取得一個平衡呢蕭教授"},{"start":107.274,"end":111.442,"text":"首先我想如果作為一個大法官他最主要的工作就是解釋憲法"},{"start":112.709,"end":134.999,"text":"解釋憲法的依據就是我們憲法本文跟政修條文還有憲政慣例還有歷來大法官跟憲法法庭的解釋那這個是我主要的依據至於剛剛委員所講的民意或是輿論我想作為一個人一定會受這些影響這個沒有問題我們也不要說很清高就是說不行我絕對不會受影響但是這些影響應該只是一個"},{"start":136.198,"end":150.135,"text":"輔助性的決定性的工具呢還是在這些客觀的價值跟法律秩序我從不否認就是說一個人的出生甚至一個人的這個教育背景當然會有特定的想法"},{"start":151.169,"end":167.72,"text":"一個人如果沒有特定的想法我想就不適合當作是一個正常的國民或是現代人所以蕭教授我可以這樣解讀嗎因為你在回覆本黨團的書面資料裡面有提到這個個人的價值理念民意跟社會輿論"},{"start":168.801,"end":185.046,"text":"是影響判決的可能因素之一而且個人價值理念與民意及社會輿論會隨著個人成長與時代發展而有所改變這是你的回答剛剛你的回答是蠻符合的"},{"start":185.526,"end":204.64,"text":"所以我想包括我在內國人期待的大法官不僅僅是一位堅定的憲法守護者更是一位能夠與時俱進理解人民情感了解社會跟民主脈動的憲法溝通者這樣子的論述這樣的基調你同意嗎我贊成"},{"start":205.18,"end":229.841,"text":"你贊成吧 是不是所以我們期許如果人事統一權通過之後你獲選為大法官那您未來可能會受理到的人民申請的事先案裡面我希望能夠本於這樣子的一個態度作為一個憲法的守護者也能夠作為一個憲法的溝通者這是我們大家的期許那接下來我就要請教你了好"},{"start":231.042,"end":253.298,"text":"我們從數據上看到這三年來憲法法庭受理並且做成裁判的案件中有75%是來自人民的申請而這些案件是人民窮盡所有法院審計救濟管道之後對國家跟司法的最後一道的希望那還有期盼也因此大法官每一次的釋憲都會實實切切影響到人民權利的保障所以國人"},{"start":259.063,"end":277.915,"text":"對司法、對大法官有很深切的期待但是我想請教一下蕭教授你看過一齣雖然叫戲劇但是卻是一個名作而且很多國人看過之後都非常有感受一齣戲叫做《我們與惡的距離》你有看過這一齣戲嗎"},{"start":279.594,"end":282.836,"text":"我為什麼會提起這一齣戲?這一齣戲引起國人很大的共鳴而且也引起了很多的討論在這個討論裡面"},{"start":300.808,"end":325.521,"text":"大部分的國人都會有一個想法包括我這幾年來在外面跟人民接觸跟基層接觸大家都會說為什麼司法跟人民的距離這麼遠教授你你認為呢我想司法跟人民的距離如果是要這個委員所講的以及很多的調查報告"},{"start":326.499,"end":346.108,"text":"大概有下面三個原因第一個原因就是說法律講話太不直接所以有所謂的法律白話文運動可是我覺得白話文越講好像也效果不好那我就會回去想就是說很多專利我們也看不懂啊為什麼專利不用白話文化為什麼法律要白話文化"},{"start":347.042,"end":366.497,"text":"因為關係到人民的權利所以這部份我們要繼續努力的去加強而且理解司法對於人民的保障然後第二個就是我們傳統的講法我用台語講一心中盤 二心村盤 三心地下彌生"},{"start":367.998,"end":387.097,"text":"那這個我相信在以前的話是沒問題但是就我個人而言我接觸的同學來講因為現在資訊這麼發達這個我想不敢說沒有但是應該在逐漸減少中那我想第三個大概是最大的問題因為我們這個訴訟一定有勝敗"},{"start":390.339,"end":419.448,"text":"那在台灣理論上勝的人要高興啊敗的人要不高興可是假設照我們的民調來講司法應該要有50%啊因為贏的人會高興啊可是看起來都是二三十三四十那表示什麼輸的人不高興贏的人也沒有很高興那到底這個問題在哪裡呢我想最主要的理由應該是這個啦那到底為什麼輸的人一定不是不高興的我覺得這個沒問題但是為什麼贏的人"},{"start":420.388,"end":434.47,"text":"還是一樣不高興呢我個人是這樣覺得啦就是說可能大家在對於法院的判決上面其實輸贏是一件事情另外一件事情以中南部的人來講就是我服不服氣啦"},{"start":435.595,"end":451.681,"text":"有的人輸了很服氣有的人贏了不服氣所以我個人覺得說最主要的應該是我們法院在判決理由檢察官在起訴不起訴的理由裡面要做非常完整適度的說明"},{"start":452.722,"end":465.9,"text":"那這個為什麼會有缺陷呢其實我常常跟老百姓聊天他們就說法官為什麼會那麼簡單的就這樣寫我會跟他們講說你來這裡你一輩子才來一次啊他們每天都來啊"},{"start":468.234,"end":483.201,"text":"你一輩子只有一個案件可是他們一天要做30個一年要做所以你講到這一個部分有關司法裡面的負擔的問題不是負擔的問題而是說我們希望大家互相的去體諒"},{"start":484.722,"end":499.438,"text":"人民要體諒但是責任要在司法系統我們要盡一切的所能把可能的理由或者就說人民的主張尤其我在溯源會的時候我們一向主張人民有什麼主張我們要一個一個回"},{"start":500.509,"end":529.779,"text":"就是說就算他的主張非常不合理你還是要用簡單的幾句話去交代有時候人民明明知道自己是錯了可是他要爭一口氣在台灣有很多這樣的人民但是你只要跟他講說你錯在哪裡他就OK了那所以蕭教授你認為你剛剛所敘述的這些算不算是國人對於司法改革的期許之一你為司法改革國人期許很大而且認為我們的司法改革程序很慢"},{"start":532.397,"end":538.363,"text":"我必須要誠實告訴你我們台灣社會普遍認為台灣的司法改革很慢而且台灣的司法改革做得很艱難"},{"start":552.385,"end":577.575,"text":"這個就是會牽涉到大家對於法律的信任對司法獨立審判的制度的信任對大法官的服不服氣跟信任的問題喔是 我覺得因為貴院的委員有直接的民主正當性所以你們的這個成敗呢就反映在選舉那行政機關甚至法官他沒有直接的民主正當性雖然我們"},{"start":578.362,"end":600.955,"text":"最後還是要經過貴院的同意我們有尖尖民主正當性但是呢我們的正當性呢應該主要是建立在我們的說理就是說如何把理由說清楚讓人民信服我覺得這是我們要去做的但是這種說理的工作呢需要很長時間的累積但是呢要破壞一下子就破壞掉了所以我個人是覺得說我們還是要"},{"start":602.011,"end":617.83,"text":"跟所有的司法人員一起來努力我們盡量把我們的想法意見跟老百姓溝通然後做成決定我覺得這樣是最對的所以我期許如果未來你擔任大法官之後那在解釋憲法的時候不僅僅是因為"},{"start":619.952,"end":634.333,"text":"法學制度跟所謂的學理深度更要與時俱進貼近人民跟社會的期待而且就如同你說的以身作則希望跟司法體制所有的從業人員所有的司法人員大家共同來"},{"start":635.675,"end":657.478,"text":"做到你剛剛所論述的讓人民無論在哪一個法院哪一級審都能夠獲得公平的對待而且是要能夠服氣這一句話最後一句話是最重要的為什麼現在台灣人民對司法不信任不服氣這個其實我們要深自檢討大家要共同努力對不對蕭教授"},{"start":658.516,"end":683.835,"text":"所以我才會剛剛一直提醒你我們作為這個憲法的守護者我們也期許作為是一個憲法的溝通者所以憲法法庭要能夠正常運作我相信今天早上有其他委員有提到我們今年五月立法院三讀修正了這個憲法訴訟法把這個做成判決的門檻提高為十人出席那違憲的宣告需要高達九人同意"},{"start":684.655,"end":704.044,"text":"尤其現況我相信你也清楚才會有今天的審查我們有七位大法官任期屆滿然後現在只有八位所以造成目前憲法法庭無法做成任何判決我們希望這一次大法官的一個審查跟人事同意權能夠順利"},{"start":705.185,"end":731.137,"text":"那這個順利是因為我們關係到人民申請釋憲未來他的權利的一個守護所以無法現在的憲法法庭如果沒有辦法正常運作那對人民權利造成的影響蕭教授你認為呢基本上我個人是這樣想就是說因為我們憲法徵求條文裡面規定的大法官法定原額是15個"},{"start":732.657,"end":752.144,"text":"那如果法定原額15個跟現有原額一樣的話那10個人9個人10個人8個人那個影響不大那為什麼會有這麼嚴格的當然就是說希望不要由少數的大法官來決定但是這個規定最大的問題是在於他沒有設例外規定"},{"start":753.2,"end":769.88,"text":"沒有設例外規定也就是說我們所有的程序的規定都是要讓組織能夠運作我們不要定一個程序組織沒有辦法運作如果沒有辦法運作就是癱瘓憲法法庭當這個組織沒有辦法運作憲法法庭沒有辦法"},{"start":772.386,"end":799.638,"text":"這個開庭甚至做成決定的時候我覺得這個可能就是要有一些例外規定來處理因為很少國家像我們這樣所以也不見得每個國家都有例外規定我個人是覺得說我們以前的三分之二、二分之一這個不高啦因為以前也有四分之三、四分之三的但是因為以前四分之三、四分之三存在的意義就是說它不會有例外規定它就全部都到齊"},{"start":800.657,"end":819.916,"text":"那全部都到齊的情況之下就算你要求四分之三的絕對多數還是開的起會四分之三的可決還是可以做決定所以你的論述是告訴我們說之前呢是不管再怎麼樣訂的一個高標準那還是開的起"},{"start":820.636,"end":840.719,"text":"開的出這個憲法法庭就是法定跟現有人數一樣現在是沒辦法連開庭成立的這個人數都達不到沒辦法嘛就是說法律的規定是理想的啦但是我們要顧及現實面因為台灣的情形有時候跟國外不太一樣"},{"start":841.46,"end":855.994,"text":"所以假設原來的規定是沒有問題的台灣的經濟跟國外不太一樣的有就是說我們以前我們本來規定八個七個這樣換那委員也知道兩年後有四個的有兩個的那就是我們的缺額會不斷的產生"},{"start":857.856,"end":877.091,"text":"本來我們當初的設計就四年一次就好了那現在變成兩年都要一次啊所以當初的設計呢就出現現實面的問題那現實面的問題呢我們就要用例外規定的方法來處理我個人是這樣覺得就是說十個人九個人十個人八個人那個基本上"},{"start":879.232,"end":894.631,"text":"形式上沒有問題但是你一定要去注意例外的情形萬一七個人甚至將來有可能假設我們隨便舉一個例子過了兩個過幾年會剩下六個啊那六個根本離十個更遠啊"},{"start":895.543,"end":913.089,"text":"所以你會建議 如果按照你這樣子的論述跟看法那你會建議如果未來擔任大法官有人提出釋憲那你會怎麼樣做決定因為這是已經在提釋憲了我個人會認為就是說我們很多的法律規定都有原則例外關係"},{"start":915.09,"end":932.723,"text":"原則例外就是要去處理那些比較特殊的個案但是不能因為說沒有規定例外的特殊個案就否定了原則因為這個會很危險所以我會不是只有憲法訴訟的問題其實很多規定也是一樣我想委員在"},{"start":933.973,"end":951.904,"text":"地方喔因為我在台中市書院會常常碰到那個來申請這個社會救助的那我們發現呢很多人很可憐為什麼他的資產啊什麼都符合規定他去年是符合規定的可是呢他今年變成什麼他繼承了他父母的一個房子那房子就"},{"start":952.865,"end":971.595,"text":"就超過那個啊可是他其他其他都沒有改變啊他沒有改變但是他就因為這樣沒有沒有辦法得到補助所以我們就建議台中市政府就說原則上你還是維持這樣但是這種例外情形你要增加例外規定讓個案可以得到正義"},{"start":972.515,"end":993.151,"text":"但是你不能就說你前面那個全部都是錯的 全部推翻所以你在未來的憲法訴訟法的這個視線裡面你的態度也非常的清楚那這個例外原則我想對外說清楚我覺得要讓憲法法庭能夠運作而且實務上是能夠真正的回應人民的期待跟守護人民的權益"},{"start":994.252,"end":1011.57,"text":"你剛剛講的要能夠開的成啊對對對對對如果實務上沒有辦法運作的話那開不成人民的權利就是被影響那這個部分其實就是我剛剛一開始也希望說要符合人民的期待要守護人民的權益最後一個問題就在於你剛剛講的"},{"start":1014.093,"end":1042.386,"text":"我們對於過去很多的憲法法庭的一個釋憲案的一個結果那很多人民呢都認為這個因為人為制度的關係憲法法庭陷入了只問診不開藥就如同你剛剛講的我憲法法庭有開啊我受理的你的釋憲案啊開會了之後呢我後來的判決結果呢他只告訴你合不合憲違不違憲但是後面的一個理由呢"},{"start":1043.466,"end":1069.76,"text":"說的不一定清楚那也說的不清楚的情況之下那可能呢 限於我剛剛強調的就像白人去看醫生那醫生問診 跟你講你大概有什麼症狀但是呢 醫生就沒開藥給你吃 沒有藥方人民事先要看到的結果沒有藥方我不知道該怎麼進行或者是行政機關我看到你有幫我爬梳出問題但是沒有給我解方"},{"start":1071.12,"end":1098.306,"text":"不明確那我覺得這樣子的窘境是未來憲法法庭我認為如果你身為大法官一定要去面對跟解決的你同意嗎這同意 這我同意因為法律本來就不是一個強迫的過程是一個說理的過程這是我一直的想法所以我現在期待的不僅僅是說理說理完之後要有解方要明智的 明白的告訴人民你可以如何走有哪些解方"},{"start":1098.766,"end":1115.372,"text":"如果是行政機關來申請釋憲那你也能夠明確的指出那問題在哪裡之外說道理之外那行政機關應該尋什麼樣的程序來修法也好或者是有什麼樣的解決方式就是為台灣的民主"},{"start":1116.352,"end":1137.228,"text":"來找出一個出路跟解方嘛這個困境我們要解決要面對不是嗎是就委員剛剛講的問題我們這次的憲法訴訟法相較以前的大審法或是大法官會議法已經改變了因為以前的大法官會議法跟大審法它基本上那個主文都就像剛剛委員所講的"},{"start":1138.12,"end":1146.658,"text":"你覺得哪一句話對的你就哪一句那現在的憲法訴訟法已經改變了因為我們是一個法庭我們會有判決主文"},{"start":1147.762,"end":1174.451,"text":"基本上主文的意見都蠻清楚的也就是說不管是最近幾年來的哪一個地方是合憲的哪一個地方是違憲的其實都蠻清楚的當然如果還有不足的地方我們會依照委員的意見去做改善 謝謝是啊 所以我還是再一次的期許希望未來你擔任大法官之後應該要一起窮盡憲法解釋的一個智慧跟方法然後為現在台灣人民的問題"},{"start":1176.071,"end":1194.947,"text":"市縣的一個案件能夠尋找出一個說理的過程跟未來的解方包括對行政單位的一個視線我們也希望能夠有明確的方向跟解方而不是只有說道理而不是只有過程過程之外要有解方那我相信"},{"start":1196.141,"end":1215.327,"text":"蕭教授你也知道台灣現在民主的一個困境是在於我注意到你過去在中正大學對於野草苺太陽花跟聲援香港反送中運動裡面你也都有參與連署所以對台灣的民主你有信心也堅定的一起站在台灣的民主這條道路上對不對是啊"},{"start":1221.644,"end":1227.482,"text":"好 謝謝何欣淳委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名的蕭文森教授的"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時57分）謝謝院長，我們請蕭教授。"],["主席：再請被提名人蕭教授說明。"],["蕭文生被提名人：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：蕭教授好。我爬梳了一下你個人的資料，蕭教授多年來投身公法學術研究，也為臺灣培育了很多法律人才，因為我知道你在中正大學任教逾30年；我剛剛又稍微看了一下你的經歷，除了教學研究工作之外，你有擔任過行政職，而且在考試院、內政部跟地方政府，包括臺中市、彰化縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣等等都有擔任訴願委員會的委員，也擔任過交通部法規委員會的委員等等。"],["蕭文生被提名人：是。"],["何委員欣純：我要強調的是，看起來你除了研究、學術、教學之外還有實務經驗，我認為這一點對於大法官未來的職務非常重要，為什麼？因為大法官不僅僅是一個獨立的憲法守護者，國人也更期待大法官更貼近人民，而且能夠與時俱進。所以希望透過今天的詢答，能夠了解您如何將您過去的這些學經歷背景轉化為未來可以捍衛人民權益的具體作為，因此今天我想請教，你認為憲法法庭作為憲政民主跟人權的守護者，如何在民意的期待跟憲法原則之間取得一個平衡呢？蕭教授。"],["蕭文生被提名人：謝謝委員的提問，首先，作為一個大法官最主要的工作就是解釋憲法，解釋憲法的依據就是我們的憲法本文、增修條文、憲政慣例還有歷來大法官跟憲法法庭的解釋，這個是我主要的依據。至於剛剛委員所講的民意或是輿論，我想作為一個人一定會受這些影響，這個沒有問題，我們也不要很清高的說：不行、我絕對不會受影響。但是這些影響應該只是一個輔助性的，決定性的工具還是在這些客觀的價值跟法律秩序，我從不否認一個人的出生，甚至一個人的教育背景當然會有特定的想法，一個人如果沒有特定的想法，我想就不適合當作是一個正常的國民或是現代人。"],["何委員欣純：所以蕭教授我可以這樣解讀嗎？因為你在回復本黨團的書面資料裡面有提到，個人的價值理念、民意跟社會輿論是影響判決的可能因素之一，而且個人價值理念與民意及社會輿論會隨著個人成長與時代發展而有所改變，對吧，這是你的回答。"],["蕭文生被提名人：是。"],["何委員欣純：跟你剛剛的回答是滿符合的喔！我想包括我在內，國人期待的大法官不僅僅是一位堅定的憲法守護者，更是一位能夠與時俱進、理解人民情感，了解社會跟民主脈動的憲法溝通者，這樣子的論述、這樣的基調，你同意嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：我贊成。"],["何委員欣純：你贊成嘛，是不是？"],["蕭文生被提名人：對。"],["何委員欣純：所以我們期許，如果人事同意權通過之後，你獲選為大法官，您未來可能會受理到人民聲請的釋憲案，我希望您能夠本於這樣子的態度，作為一個憲法的守護者，也能夠作為一個憲法的溝通者，這是我們大家的期許。","接下來我就要請教你了，我們從數據上看到，這三年來，憲法法庭受理並且做成裁判的案件中，有75%是來自人民的聲請，而這些案件是人民窮盡所有法院審級的救濟管道之後，對國家跟司法的最後一道希望還有期盼，也因此大法官每一次的釋憲都會切切實實影響到人民權利的保障，所以國人對司法、對大法官有很深切的期待，但是我想請教一下蕭教授，你看過一齣……雖然叫戲劇，但卻是一個名作，而且很多國人看過之後都非常有感受的一齣戲，叫做「我們與惡的距離」，你有看過這一齣戲嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：很抱歉，我最近都在準備貴院的工作……"],["何委員欣純：可能你沒時間看啦，對不對？"],["蕭文生被提名人：第二季我沒看。"],["何委員欣純：第二季你沒看，表示第一季你有看，對不對？我為什麼會提起這一齣戲？這一齣戲引起國人很大的共鳴，也引起了很多的討論，在這個討論裡面，大部分的國人都會有一個想法，包括我這幾年來在外面跟人民接觸、跟基層接觸，大家都會說為什麼司法跟人民的距離這麼遠？教授，您認為呢？"],["蕭文生被提名人：我想司法跟人民的距離如果照委員所講的以及很多的調查報告，大概有下面三個原因，第一個原因是法律人講話太不直接，所以有所謂的法律白話文運動，可是我覺得白話文越講，效果好像也不好，我就會回去想，很多專利我們也看不懂啊？為什麼專利不用白話文化，法律就要白話文化？"],["何委員欣純：因為關係到人民的權利。"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，委員講得對，所以這一部分我們要繼續努力的去加強。"],["何委員欣純：要讓一般人聽得懂，而且理解司法對於人民的保障。"],["蕭文生被提名人：對。第二個是我們傳統的講法，我用臺語講「一審重判，二審減半，三審豬腳麵線」……"],["何委員欣純：蕭教授很接地氣。"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，我相信在以前的話是沒問題啦！但是就我個人而言，以我接觸的同學來講，因為現在資訊這麼發達，這個我想不敢說沒有，但是應該在逐漸減少中。我想第三個大概是最大的問題啦！因為訴訟一定有勝敗，在臺灣，理論上勝的人要高興，敗的人要不高興，可是假設照我們的民調來講，司法應該要有50%，因為贏的人會高興，可是看起來都是20、30、30、40，那表示什麼？輸的人不高興，贏的人也沒有很高興，那到底這個問題在哪裡呢？"],["何委員欣純：對，為什麼？"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，我想最主要的理由應該是這一個啦！輸的人一定是不高興的，我覺得這個沒問題，但是為什麼贏的人還是一樣不高興呢？我個人是這樣覺得，可能大家在對於法院的判決上面，其實輸贏是一件事情，另外一件事情以中南部的人來講的話，就是我服不服氣啦！有的人輸了很服氣、有的人贏了不服氣，所以我個人覺得最主要的應該是我們法院在判決理由、檢察官在起訴或不起訴的理由裡面要做非常完整適度的說明，這個為什麼會有缺陷呢？其實我常常跟老百姓聊天，他們說法官為什麼會那麼簡單的就這樣寫，我會跟他們講，你來這裡是一輩子才來一次，他們每天都來啊！你一輩子只有一個案件，可是他們一天要做30個、一年要做……"],["何委員欣純：所以你講到的這個部分是有關司法裡面的負擔問題？"],["蕭文生被提名人：不是負擔的問題，而是我們希望大家互相體諒，人民要體諒，但是責任要在司法系統，我們要盡一切所能，把可能的理由或者人民的主張，尤其我在訴願會的時候，我們一向主張人民有什麼主張，我們要一個一個回。也就是說，就算他的主張非常不合理，你還是要用簡單的幾句話去交代，有時候人民明明知道自己是錯了，可是他要爭一口氣，在臺灣有很多這樣的人民，但是你只要跟他講他錯在哪裡，他就OK了。"],["何委員欣純：蕭教授，你認為你剛剛所敘述的這些算不算是國人對於司法改革的期許之一？"],["蕭文生被提名人：當然、當然。"],["何委員欣純：因為國人對司法改革的期許很大，而且認為我們的司法改革程序很慢。"],["蕭文生被提名人：關於快慢的問題，我覺得是這樣說，以個人、當事人來講都很慢，因為他都希望他的案子趕快審。"],["何委員欣純：但是我必須要誠實的告訴你，社會普遍認為臺灣的司法改革很慢，而且臺灣的司法改革做得很艱難，這個就是會牽涉到大家對於法律的信任、對司法獨立審判制度的信任、對大法官服不服氣與信任的問題。"],["蕭文生被提名人：是，我覺得因為貴院的委員有直接的民主正當性，所以你們的成敗就反映在選舉，而行政機關，甚至法官，他們沒有直接的民主正當性，雖然我們最後還是要經過貴院的同意，有間接民主正當性，但是我們的正當性應該主要是建立在我們的說理，就是如何把理由說清楚，讓人民信服，我覺得這是我們要去做的。這種說理的工作需要很長時間的累積，但是要破壞是一下子就破壞掉了，所以我個人覺得我們還是要跟所有的司法人員一起努力，我們儘量把我們的想法、意見跟老百姓溝通，然後作成決定，我覺得這樣是最對的，謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：是啊！我期許如果未來你擔任大法官之後，在解釋憲法的時候，不僅僅是法學制度跟學理深度更要與時俱進，貼近人民跟社會的期待，而且就如同你說的以身作則，希望跟司法體制所有的從業人員、司法人員，大家共同做到你剛剛所論述的，讓人民無論在哪一個法院、哪一級審都能夠獲得公平的對待，而且是要能夠服氣。最後一句話是最重要的，為什麼現在臺灣人民對司法不信任、不服氣，其實我們要深切檢討，大家要共同努力，對不對，蕭教授？"],["蕭文生被提名人：是。"],["何委員欣純：因此我才會剛剛一直提醒你，我們作為憲法的守護者，也期許作為憲法的溝通者，所以憲法法庭要能夠正常運作，我相信今天早上其他委員有提到，今年5月立法院三讀修正的憲法訴訟法，把作成判決的門檻提高為10人出席，而違憲宣告需要高達9人同意，尤其現況我相信你也清楚，才會有今天的審查，我們有7位大法官任期屆滿，而現在只有8位，所以造成目前憲法法庭無法作成任何判決。我們希望這一次的大法官審查跟人事同意權能夠順利，而希望順利是因為這關係到人民聲請釋憲，未來其權利的守護，現在憲法法庭如果沒有辦法正常運作，對人民權利會造成何影響，蕭教授，你認為呢？"],["蕭文生被提名人：基本上我個人是這樣想，因為憲法增修條文裡面規定的大法官法定員額是15個，如果法定員額15個跟現有員額一樣的話，10個人、9個人，10個人、8個人，那個影響不大，為什麼會這麼嚴格？當然就是希望不要由少數的大法官來決定，但是這個規定最大的問題是在於他沒有設例外規定。"],["何委員欣純：沒有設例外條款、例外規定。"],["蕭文生被提名人：也就是說，我們所有程序的規定都是要讓組織能夠運作，我們不要訂了一個程序，但組織沒有辦法運作。"],["何委員欣純：如果沒有辦法運作就是癱瘓憲法法庭嘛。"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，當這個組織沒有辦法運作，憲法法庭沒有辦法開庭，甚至做成決定的時候，我覺得這個可能就是要有一些例外規定來處理，因為很少國家像我們這樣，所以也不見得每個國家都有例外規定。我個人是覺得我們以前的三分之二、二分之一這個不高啦！因為以前也有四分之三、四分之三的，但是因為以前四分之三、四分之三存在的意義，就是它不會有例外規定，它就是全部都到期，在全部都到期的情況之下，就算你要求四分之三的絕對多數，還是開得起會，四分之三的可決，還是可以做決定，但是……"],["何委員欣純：所以你的論述是告訴我們，之前不管訂怎麼樣的高標準，還是開得出憲法法庭。"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，就是法定跟現有人數一樣。"],["何委員欣純：就是可以成庭，開會可以成立啦！"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，這個沒問題，但是……"],["何委員欣純：但現在是沒辦法，連開庭成立的人數都達不到，沒辦法嘛。"],["蕭文生被提名人：法律的規定是理想的，但是我們要顧及現實面，因為臺灣的情形有時候跟國外不太一樣，所以假設原來的規定是沒有問題的，但是……"],["何委員欣純：臺灣的情形跟國外不太一樣的地方在哪？"],["蕭文生被提名人：就是說以前我們本來規定8個、7個這樣換，委員也知道2年後有4個的、有2個的，就是我們的缺額會不斷地產生。本來我們當初的設計是每4年1次就好，但現在變成每2年都要1次，所以當初的設計就出現現實面的問題，現實面的問題我們就要用例外規定的方法來處理，我個人是這樣覺得，就是說10個人、9個人，10個人、8個人，那個基本上形式上沒有問題，但是你一定要去注意例外的情形，萬一是7個人，甚至將來有可能……我們隨便舉一個例子，過了2個，過幾年會剩下6個，6個根本離10個更遠啊！那是不是……"],["何委員欣純：按照你這樣子的論述跟看法，如果未來你擔任大法官，有人提出釋憲，你會怎麼樣做決定？"],["蕭文生被提名人：因為這已經在提釋憲了。"],["何委員欣純：對，已經提釋憲了。"],["蕭文生被提名人：我個人會認為，我們很多的法律規定都有原則、例外關係，例外就是要去處理那些比較特殊的個案，但是不能因為沒有規定例外的特殊個案就否定了原則，這個會很危險，所以不是只有憲法訴訟的問題，其實很多規定也是一樣。我想委員在地方也知道，因為我在臺中市訴願會常常碰到來申請社會救助的，我們發現很多人很可憐，為什麼？他的資產等等什麼都符合規定，他去年是符合規定的，可是他今年變成什麼？他繼承了他父母的一個房子。"],["何委員欣純：沒錯。"],["蕭文生被提名人：那房子就超過規定啊！可是他其他的部分都沒有改變。"],["何委員欣純：那個現況還是沒有改變。"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，他沒有改變，但是他就因為這樣沒有辦法得到補助，所以我們就建議臺中市政府原則上還是維持這樣，這種例外的情形要增加例外規定，讓個案可以得到正義，但是不能說你前面那個全部都是錯的，全部推翻，我覺得這是不對。"],["何委員欣純：所以在未來憲法訴訟法的釋憲裡面，你的態度也非常的清楚，這個例外原則我想對外說清楚，我覺得要讓憲法法庭能夠運作，而且實務上是能夠真正回應人民的期待跟守護人民的權益，像你剛剛講的，要能夠開得成啦！"],["蕭文生被提名人：對。"],["何委員欣純：如果實務上沒有辦法運作的話，開不成，人民的權利就是被影響。"],["蕭文生被提名人：這當然。"],["何委員欣純：這個部分其實就是我剛剛一開始說的，希望要符合人民的期待、守護人民的權益。","最後一個問題就在於你剛剛講的，我們對於過去很多憲法法庭釋憲案的結果，很多人民都認為因為人為制度的關係，憲法法庭陷入了只問診不開藥的情況，就如同你剛剛講的：「我憲法法庭有開，我受理了你的釋憲案啊！」開會之後，後來的判決結果他只告訴你合不合憲、違不違憲，但是後面的理由不一定說得清楚，在這種情況下，可能陷於我剛剛強調的，就像病人去看醫生，醫生問診告訴你大概有什麼症狀，但是沒有開藥給你吃，沒有藥方。因此人民看到釋憲案的結果是沒有藥方，我不知道該怎麼進行，或者是行政機關，我看到你有幫我爬梳出問題，但是沒有給我解方、不明確，我覺得這樣子的窘境，如果你身為大法官，是未來憲法法庭一定要去面對跟解決的，你同意嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：這同意，這我同意。"],["何委員欣純：是嘛！"],["蕭文生被提名人：因為法律本來就不是一個強迫的過程，是一個說理的過程，「說理」這是我一直的想法。"],["何委員欣純：所以我現在期待不僅僅是說理，說理完之後要有解方，要明示、明白的告訴人民可以如何走？有哪些解方？如果是行政機關來聲請釋憲，你能夠明確的指出問題在哪裡之外、說道理之外，行政機關應該循什麼樣的程序來修法，或者是有什麼樣的解決方式？就是為臺灣的民主找出一個出路跟解方嘛，這個困境我們要解決、要面對，不是嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：是。就委員剛剛講的問題，我們這次的憲法訴訟法，相較以前的大審法或是大法官會議法已經改變了，因為基本上以前的大法官會議法跟大審法的主文都像剛剛委員所講的，你覺得哪一句話對的，你就用哪一句。而現在的憲法訴訟法已經改變了，因為我們是一個法庭，會有判決主文，基本上主文的意見都蠻清楚的，也就是不管最近幾年來哪一個地方是合憲的，哪一個地方是違憲的，其實都蠻清楚的。當然，如果還有不足的地方，我們會依照委員的意見去做改善，謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：是啊，所以我還是再一次的期許，希望未來你擔任大法官之後，應該要一起窮盡憲法解釋的智慧跟方法，為現在臺灣人民的問題，在釋憲的案件能夠尋找出說理的過程跟未來的解方，包括對行政單位的釋憲，我們也希望能夠有明確的方向跟解方，而不是只有說道理，而不是只有過程，過程之外要有解方。我相信蕭教授也知道臺灣現在民主的困境是在於……我注意到你過去在中正大學，對於野草莓、太陽花、跟聲援香港反送中運動裡面，你也都有參與連署，所以對臺灣的民主你有信心，也堅定的一起站在臺灣的民主這條道路上，對不對？"],["蕭文生被提名人：是啊，民主是我們必經的路嘛！也沒有回頭路，謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員的詢問，也謝謝我們被提名人蕭文生教授的說明。","報告全院委員會，我們針對大法官被提名人蕭文生教授的詢答部分到此為止，我們非常感謝被提名人今天列席答詢。現在我們休息10分鐘，休息之後進行大法官被提名人鄭純惠法官之詢問，現在休息。","休息（11時18分）","繼續開會（11時28分）"],["主席：報告全院委員會，現在繼續開會。","進行審查大法官被提名人鄭純惠法官之資格及是否適任相關事項。首先請鄭純惠法官說明，時間10分鐘。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生，大家好。我是鄭純惠。今天帶著嚴肅的心情，以司法院大法官被提名人的身分在此接受各位委員的提問審查。有關我個人的學、經歷及專長、裁判等，請參見先前提出的問卷及相關資料。","這些詳細的書面資料，應可供委員們審查及評斷被提名人的法律專業。憲法訴訟制度的運作，攸關國家憲政秩序的維護，人民基本權利的保障，參與裁判形成的大法官責任重大。代表民意的立法院關於大法官被提名人的審查，除了專業能力，更關心被提名人對於大法官職責的理解與依法獨立審判的態度，事所當然。因此，我就從我如何形成司法審判相關理念的過程，說明我對大法官職責的理解及依法獨立審判的態度。","我是彰化人，父親因工作關係，在我小學時，全家搬到台北。家中經濟雖然不佳，父、母親總教我們要為人本分、專心讀書。父親對於子女的選擇，秉持尊重、開放的態度，給我們充分的自由。我的母親是個細心、睿智的人，常提醒我們要舉止得宜、勇於任事，因為有她的鼓勵，我才能在艱困的環境中持續追求夢想，到今天站在這裡。我的求學過程平順，就讀北一女中時，有幸遇到許多熱愛人文、志同道合的同學，相約報考法律系。在臺大法律系就讀期間，因受到李鴻禧教授傳達民主自由憲政理念，及蔡墩銘教授闡述無罪推定等刑法原則的啓發，開始思索民主與基本人權等問題。後來，聆聽王澤鑑教授清楚分析民法的體系概念，及邱聯恭教授詳細講解當事人程序權的保障與重要性，更引起我對於民事實體與程序法學的研究興趣，也讓我學會以精確的用語、簡明的圖表說明複雜的法律概念，以及後來從事審判工作時，在訴訟上具體實踐當事人程序權的保障，作成可以獲得當事人信賴的公正裁判。在臺大法律研究所師承柯澤東教授，研究當事人自主解決紛爭的仲裁制度，無論處世哲學及專業法學都獲益良多。恩師們的教誨與薰陶，對於我從事審判工作的理念及態度，影響至深。","大學畢業後，當年10月法制人員高等考試及格，考量家中經濟，隨即依分發至法務部法律事務司工作，同年底律師高考及格，隔年司法官考試及格。在法務部法律事務司期間，負責法令詮釋及法案修正等幕僚工作，開始接觸司法實務，城璧連司長對於司法工作認真且嚴謹由於她的殷殷期許，使我決定進入司法界從事審判實務工作。80年6月司法官第28期結業，分發至臺灣臺北地方法院，派在刑事庭，庭長黃文圞堅守獨立審判的理念，辦案公正積極，她的耐心指正，讓我在從事審判工作開始，即建立公正、嚴謹的辦案態度，遵守正當法律程序並兼顧被告、被害人的人權維護。後來調任法務部司法官訓練所專任民事組導師，再回任臺灣臺北地方法院民事庭法官兼庭長，期間曾就國泰世華銀行在新店興建員工眷舍紛爭事件進行調解，以中立、持平的態度，傾聽當事人的意見陳述，盡力促使雙方溝通，共同尋求可接受的解決方案。歷時1年反覆協調，最後調解成立200多件，平衡當事人間的實體與程序權益，避免無止盡的訟累。之後歷經臺灣高等法院法官、庭長，及最高法院民事庭法官，持續辦理民事事件審判至今，已經超過30年。一路走來，沒有偏見地傾聽最大與最小的聲音，公平對待、一併考量，依法獨立審判早已是深植在我心中的工作準則。","任職法官期間，基於教學熱忱，在中原大學、文化大學法律系兼任講授民事訴訟法課程，並擔任法務部司法官學院民事組講座兼召集人。另外在法官學院講授民事法律實務相關課程，透過審判經驗的傳承，確立訴訟權保障及公正審判的正確觀念。調任最高法院法官後，庭長陳國禎也不時提醒，法律審除了應該要確保裁判法律適用的正確跟嚴謹性，也應該要從普羅大眾的角度去檢視裁判的妥當性，經由終審法院裁判評議的討論，並參與學術研討會與談的磨練，更強化法學研究與論述能力。期間參與最高法院第一、二、三屆民事大法庭，本於獨立判斷及自我負責的態度，提出多件不同意見書，例如最近造成各地方法院民事執行處重大負擔的「人壽保險契約解約金之執行」，我從財產權及人格權保障的衝突與限制的觀點，獨排眾議，採取否定見解，提出不同意見書。最近保險法部分條文已經修正，明文限縮人壽保險契約解約金的強制執行範圍，也可以具體化減少保險執行案件的數量，減輕法院執行的負擔。由於在最高法院期間的歷練，使我更能適切的運用法律解釋原則，及表述憲法保護基本人權的重要意涵。對我而言，法官依法獨立審判這件事，不是所謂理念的應然，而是幾十年來透過我的家庭、學校的教育養成，再經由實務上一件件個案裁判，日積月累、自然形成的深層內化且確切履行的實然。上萬件的裁判，也是我對於依法獨立審判的態度與踐履，最真實的紀錄。","最近常有人問我，在這個時刻為什麼會接受大法官的提名與推薦？首先，我認為被推薦，進而被提名，代表對於所有長期默默辦理審判工作的法官給予最大的信任與肯定，畢竟司法過勞是眾所周知的事，能夠長期辦理審判，並堅持辦好每一件案件，並不是件容易的事。其次就是基於法律人根深蒂固的使命感，在可能的範圍內，為成長所在的這片土地盡自己的能力，維護民主法治是無可推辭的事。如果我能獲得信任成為憲法法庭的成員，必定堅守一路走來依法獨立、公正審判的態度，共同承擔守護憲法的責任，為維護自由民主憲政秩序及成就人民信賴的司法，全力以赴。謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝鄭純惠法官的說明。","現在進行委員詢問。","首先請黃珊珊委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","麥玉珍","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","賴惠員","陳菁徽","何欣純","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳素月","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","徐欣瑩","張雅琳","蘇清泉","林憶君","林楚茵","陳永康","王美惠"],"page_start":365,"meetingDate":["2025-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00006","1146501_00007","1146501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00004"}}}